The tricky situation:In my last relationship, the problem of emotional cheating was a really big insecurity of mine. After reading your blog and starting a Feelings Diary, I came to understand why I was insecure about it and it boiled down to me not being happy in the relationship and me projecting. That said, my ex also gave me reason to worry including talking about other women in sexually fetishistic ways–it made me uncomfortable and was a constant source of insecurity. I understand that this should have been a code red alert for me that we were incompatible (and immature) and that I had fear of “not being good enough”, but unfortunately this experience tinted how I feel about possible future relationships.
Where do you draw the line? I hear about people in mutually fulfilling healthy relationships, such as my mother and her husband, where the partners still talk about other people as being “attractive” and that bothers and worries me due to my own experience with my ex. Is it something I need to sanity check? Is it normal that even in healthy relationships people are still going off being attracted to others? Normally, due to my experience with a Mr Unavailable, I would have chalked that up to being dissatisfied with your own relationship/partner, but this seems to be something most of my close friends do and normalise.
The other thing I hear a lot about from friends in relationships (though not necessarily healthy ones) is this idea of “crushes”. Similarly, this idea about having a crush on someone while in a relationship seems to go into emotional affair territory for me, even if it is superficial. I think it makes me uncomfortable because I find it sort of juvenile really and the people who talk about it are people who tend to be more illusions-driven types.
I understand there is a healthy difference between thinking someone is handsome and then straight out emotional affairs or being actively attracted to another person while in a relationship. To me, however, just the word “attraction” implies an active process, not to mention a “single” mentality. I’m beginning to wonder if this is something that is a personal boundary of mine (emotional and physical monogamy) or if it’s just an insecurity I need to work on and sanity check?
********************
You’re mixing up a number of issues and using generalisations and judgements that chime with your own narrative to justify your position and reinforce an underlying insecurity and wall that you have about relationships. Let’s take it from the top:
Emotional cheating is an inappropriate emotional liaison with another person, so think of it is an affair sans sex. Often regarded as being worse than if a partner had actually had sex, emotional affairs involve secrecy, lies, and thinking about, talking with, and confiding in another person in a way that isn’t happening within the existing relationship–it’s betrayal.
I’ll tell you what emotional cheating isn’t: acknowledging that a person of the opposite or same sex is attractive.
While a sexual fetish isn’t a crime (depending on what it is of course), objectifying people, whether it’s in front of a partner or not, and being sexually inappropriate in behaviour or language, is a problem. One ex had poor sexual boundaries and was described by my friends as “deviant”–he constantly talked about other women, he made invitations dressed as wisecracks to my friends about threesomes, and degraded me with his behaviour to name but a few. When he came to visit me in the U.S. (this is after spending weeks emailing me about all the “young fillies” that were apparently eyeing him up in a club back home in Dublin), we joined a group of my friends for dinner on the first night and he said to my best pal, “I’m like a fire engine ready to spray you with my hose!”. I ended it with him shortly after, although I internalised his behaviour for quite some time.
Sure, your ex was a tit, but the question you have to ask yourself is: Why, if I am someone who is already insecure and not feeling “good enough”, am I going out with someone who blows my wound wide open with his disrespectful attitude towards me and women?
By having a very honest conversation with you, you get to acknowledge that because your beliefs centre around you being “not good enough”, having to compete with other women, and on some level also believing that you’re supposed to find someone out there whose eyes only work for you, you’re now in a self-fulfilling prophecy. This results in attempting to get somebody who behaves in ways that exacerbate your insecurity to validate you and forsake all others while at the same time, because you’re blaming you for his crappy behaviour, comparing you to other women, and telling you that if you were “enough” he wouldn’t so much as look at another woman, ultimately reinforcing your belief that you are not good enough.
Putting him aside for a few moments, it’s also critical to note that recognising that someone is attractive is not the same as being attracted to them. A person can note attractiveness without having a romantic or sexual interest. Don’t conflate noting attractiveness with emotionally and/or physically pursuing an attraction with someone or being in a continued state of being attracted to someone.
Noting attractiveness doesn’t diminish the love or attraction you feel for a partner. No one is “going off”–it doesn’t mean that they want to have sex, run off, or start an emotional affair. Tarring your mother and stepfather with the same brush as your shady ex is an unfair comparison and judgement. It’s as if you’ve stopped believing in relationships with love, care, trust and respect. Don’t reduce them all to what you experienced.
You then have your friends who you say are not in healthy relationships who are having crushes, which by extension of them not having left the unhealthy relationships, explains their mentality. Crushes are only an emotional affair in the context of the person already being in a relationship and it being destructive to their sense of self or how they show up in the relationship. A crush is a form of escape; an infatuation that covers up an unmet need or unresolved issue in the existing relationship. A crush is ‘safe’ because we get to feel good from the fantasising without having to make good on it. Obsessing about the person can also be a big distraction from having to take action on more pressing situations.
It strikes me that aside from having gone through what was undoubtedly a painful experience with your ex, that you’re also carrying pain from the past that’s distorting your self-image and being used as a means of judging you as inadequate. Your darker feelings and thoughts about you are in some ways being projected onto people and into situations around you. Rather than holding up your hand to being self-critical and addressing the root causes behind that, it is easier to look at and even judge others because these people are evidence for the case against changing. You are already enough but until you decide that, it doesn’t matter what anyone else says. Why do you want to be ‘right’ about being inferior?
You being insecure; you believing that you’re “not good enough” is a you problem not an ex-problem. That is about your perception of you–you need to look at the beliefs you had going into this relationship as well as the beliefs you’ve exited with. These are judgements that are being used to protect you from experiencing an old pain again and from having to put you out there again–you’re criticising you and others as a way of avoiding a bigger imagined future pain.
Even if you found a guy who only ever interacts with men, that will not change the internal conversation that you’re having with you. You will feel temporarily in control but the fear will still remain which means you will find new ways to reinforce old beliefs. As a result, your so-called boundary is actually a wall because you’re unable to distinguish between different situations and trust you.
If you weren’t distrusting your viability, your value, your presence as a woman, you would not be so consumed by your insecurity.
No one can tell you what your comfort levels are but common sense dictates that if you have strong beliefs about the objectification of women and what you are and are not cool with sexually, that you don’t go out with somebody who has entirely different sexual values. That is your boundary to uphold. Do not concern you with what other people are doing; concern yourself with living up to your own standards in a relationship and that includes not objectifying you or other women.
Mend your relationship with you. Address whatever is behind your criticism of your body and your femininity.
Particularly for women, it’s vital that we recognise that it is not our job to take a man (or woman for that matter) with a boatload of problems or entirely different sexual values, and make him/her forsake all others so that we can feel worthy. If this is the intent we set out with where we are competing with other women for a ‘tiny pot’, not only does our scarcity mindset blow smoke up people’s bottoms but it ensures that any relationship we’re in is dead in the water before it can go anywhere.
All of our relationships regardless of how they work out, are here to teach us something. Your ex has knocked your confidence with his behaviour and you have crushed your spirit by judging you as lacking. This relationship activated an old wound. Take the time to see a therapist where you can look at what’s behind your pain so that you can let go by gaining perspective and forgiving your younger self for who you think that she’s failed to be.
Your thoughts?
Each Wednesday, I help a reader to solve a dilemma. To submit a question, please email natalie AT baggagereclaim.com with ‘Advice Wednesday’ in the subject line. If you would prefer your question to be featured on the podcast, drop a line to podcast AT baggagereclaim.com. Keep questions below 200 words. If you want detailed one-to-one support, please use my consultation service.
Well, I think one thing is stating that one finds another person attractive or talking about a star one fancies as a joke and another thing is crossing appropriate boundaries like asking if any of your girlfriends are hot and would be interested in a threesome. It is not ok either to talk about ex-girlfriends and their preferences and performances in bed and for you to know anything about his very young ex’s great tits (I am not making this up!). All this makes you feel like crap because he starts to bring other people into a relationship that should be about two and not three people and if you are insecure, you start to compare yourself to ex-girlfriends (!!). I personally think that we all have a very good gut feeling about what is ok for us and what isn’t. I have learned the painful way that when I don’t listen to my gut, I have to pay the price.
Rewind
on 18/02/2016 at 3:24 pm
OMG Teresa. Mine would also suggest a threesome too and even went as far as asking who I would choose, and then spitting out names of women I didn’t know but knew he had messed around with. Incredible. Always talking about other women…always. And every women he was with, he’d take up some hobby of theirs. He had no originality of his own. If they roller skated, he would have a great interest in roller skating, if they were painters, he would decided to learn to draw, etc., etc. And he would let me know about these interests and mention the girls name that corresponded. I didn’t listen to my gut either…just buried my head in the sand because I didn’t want the pain. But there was pain…a lot of it.
Pat
on 18/02/2016 at 1:25 am
Having been on this track, I empathise with this lady. However after my 2nd partner also cheated on me I decided to look withina little and find out if I had anything to do with it. This was back in the late 70’s early 80’s and I was blessed with friend who was a counsellor who suggested I look at the works of Louise Hay and Florence Scovel Shinn.
What came to light was a very deep hidden insecurity about being abandoned and not feeling worthy of another person’s fidelity. These days I listen more and more to my gut feeling and it really does save me from feeling “let down yet again” Plus I tend not to seek acceptance from others but am happy with myself. I am about to turn 70 so don’t give up but look to yourself and realise what a lovely human being you are 🙂
Elgie R.
on 18/02/2016 at 2:15 am
I’m very cynical about guys who have a need to tell me the physical virtues of other women…and to me, it is a dealbreaker…I don’t care how long we’ve been going out together…first date or several months..you have a need to tell me about other women’s beauty….?…I am out.
A man wins points with me by keeping those thoughts to himself. We all have thoughts, and contrary to this social media culture, we don’t have to say everything that is on our mind.
In my one seriously good relationship, I had to deal with this one evening. I let him finish his thoughts about the attractiveness of another woman, I told him that I don’t like hearing his views on other women’s beauty and it would be best to keep those thoughts to himself. I didn’t feel a need to explain any further, nor did he try to bait me with “You’re insecure.” I knew he cared about me because he never did it again.
But I’ve also had a FWB relationship with a man who would call me to talk about all the “honeys” he caught sight of, always at an affair that he may or may not have invited me to…and even though I wasn’t interested in him as a “boyfriend”, it still irritated me that he always had compliments for other women and never once complimented me in all the years we’d known each other. After I ended the FWB thing, I noticed his compliments about other women had no effect on my psyche…they actually made me happy to be out of the FWB thing. So I’ve learned that when I share my body with a man, it is a requirement that I have an emotional security bubble that no other woman is allowed into, and for me, that means my man never directly talks to me about another woman’s beauty.
And believe me, men are no different.
starr
on 18/02/2016 at 4:02 am
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS RESPONSE.
I couldn’t agree more. SOOOOO spot on, it made my stomach turn. THANK YOU, Elgie.
Starr
Getting-There
on 19/02/2016 at 4:54 am
If I could give you the biggest round of applause, I would.
You are absolutely spot on. Until we Women stop putting up with this immature, insensitive and down right disrespectful behaviour from men…. it will never stop.
Men triangulating women is classic emotional abuse and manipulation.
Rewind
on 19/02/2016 at 2:59 pm
I recall once him actually saying to me “So how does it make you feel when you know I sleep with other women?”
It took several years of this manipulation and emotional abuse before I finally had enough and discovered I needed to love myself. When I look back at what I put up with, I shiver.
Magpie
on 20/02/2016 at 7:19 pm
arsehole
Crystal
on 21/02/2016 at 10:32 pm
Seconded!
Leah
on 18/02/2016 at 10:50 am
Women ARE beautiful. Instead of being wounded by this fact, we should celebrate each other. Strong women are not in competition with each other. Good self esteem doesn’t mean banning any reference to other women’s beauty. The problem is with how (some/most?) men think objectification of women is remotely acceptable. Not other women’s beauty. I don’t tolerate men who objectify me, or any other women. I don’t want superficial compliments on my appearance, yet ban other women from being called beautiful in my presence. That makes no sense whatsoever, and is how your comments read, sadly, Elgie. All women ARE beautiful, and no woman should be threatened by this. I don’t tolerate any man who is only interested in me as a sexual object, no way, yet sadly, that is the vast majority of my experience. I’ve been single 13 years, and staying that way, and celebrating other women’s beauty, until a man who is worthy of my interest, a man who is a genuinely good human being, and recognises me as such, comes along. If he never does, I will still celebrate other women’s strengths and beauty. If he does come along, it’s important we can celebrate women’s strength and beauty together at times, plus the occasional man who warrants it. As some human beings are amazing, and it’s they who are the light in the world. Never try to extinguish other’s lights. It just dims your own. Be secure in ourselves, first and foremost. In spite of our experiences. Security and self esteem is an inside job.
Suki
on 18/02/2016 at 11:47 am
‘Women ARE beautiful. Instead of being wounded by this fact, we should celebrate each other.’
If you find yourself disgusted when a guy goes on and on about the sexual attractiveness of someone he saw on TV – thats not me failing to celebrate women. Thats me thinking I’m with a juvenile. Especially interesting to think whether this guy has anything to say about women in any other way – as politicians, doctors, writers, artists, mums, sisters whatever. No? Just as sexual beings there for his satisfaction? UGH. No thanks. I didn’t spend decades becoming an adult so I could still be around adolescents.
I had a boyfriend that went on and on about supermodels. We were young but even then it bothered me. Not that these women aren’t beautiful – if you see them on TV, and you say she is beautiful, thats fine. But if this woman is nowhere on TV right now, and is in your head all the time, I will judge your maturity and general capacity for intelligent living. AND this guy had poor boundaries with women, poor platonic boundaries. So his relationships to women were disrespecting me.
I want a guy with a filter – I don’t appreciate empty talk about ‘sexiness’ or ‘eff-ability’. Keep it in your mind.
Rach
on 18/02/2016 at 12:30 pm
Commenting often about the sexiness of other women is a sign of immaturity, in my opinion. It’s how I expect teenagers to be as they become used to their sexual selves. Of course supermodels are beautiful! Duh! I don’t need to be constantly aware of how other women have the potential to turn my bloke on. It’s childish, and therefore irritating. It’s a huge turn off for me.
I can appreciate a woman’s beauty, and I am aware that everyone else can too. But by objectifying women right in front of me makes me question a man’s motives. Is he trying to big up his own virility or trying to put me in my place, or both?
I really like trifle but I don’t go nuts and verbally salivate every time I see one in the supermarket. I don’t have to keep going on about how much I love vanilla custard and fresh cream.
kookie
on 18/02/2016 at 12:38 pm
Interesting one Nat! I think what’s needed to keep your sanity in life in relationships is to master the two aspects of feeling attractive. First is finally believing that you are attractive in general, meaning you truly see and value your own beauty as a woman on your own. However , once you enter a relationship you need to believe that that particular person finds you specifically attractive. Since you do not live in other people’s heads that person has to consistently give you outward cues and reassurances that YOU are attractive to THEM ,not just attractive in general or as a woman or whatever.
There are plenty of very attractive( in general ) who I am not specifically attracted to. The less a man gives you outward cues that he is STILL attracted to you( attraction can wane) you won’t be that bothered at all if he mentions that some other person is attractive to him. But in a relationship where that person hasn’t quite figured out what cues you as an individual need to assure you that they are attracted to you specifically very much (some people take for granted that just remaining in the relationship should demonstrate that they are attracted to you,which it doesn’t).
Of course you need to bolster your own sense of your own beauty but there really is a need for feedback from the other person in ways that resonate with you individually once you are in a relationship.
I have not taken issue with this issue with guys whose way of showing me they thought I was attractive TO THEM matched with my world view but I found myself struggling with guys who were not affectionate with me and demonstrative of their attraction to , Kookie , in the way I wanted but could go on for hours bout some other woman. A man should not be your only source of validation about your attractiveness but he is also the only person who can validate whether you specifically are attractive to him specifically and not in general to the world.
Rewind
on 18/02/2016 at 3:19 pm
He used to flirt openly when we were out (and by out I mean out of town…we didn’t do things in our own community). Flirting with waitresses, women that were sitting with us at a concert, etc. And then he would ask me “So do you think I was flirting?”
He would also always take a phone call from another woman while I was sitting beside him. And always end the conversation with “see you soon” or “love you too.” The pain was so great on my end that I would just remain silent instead of telling him that it hurt me. He would never have understood anyway.
Then there were the times that he would say “So, is it wrong to want someone that is in a relationship?” What I now know is that he delighted in breaking couples up to get the girl, and then she was left with nothing. I actually did say to him once…”well if you work on getting someone that is already taken, you need to be sure you want them and will treat them right.”
So many other examples. All painful. At the time, I buried my head in the sand. I was never, ever one to look at his phone or go through his computer because I just didn’t want to know. Perhaps that is why he made it a point to let me know…he wanted to hurt me.
Just another typical trait of the N. They are dangerous creatures.
Elgie R.
on 18/02/2016 at 7:06 pm
Wow, Rewind. That man had a master’s degree in emotional abuse.
The only way to find the men who are worth having is to be vigilant, always keep what YOU want at the forefront of your mind, always do what is best for YOU, and be prepared to walk away for good at the FIRST mistake he makes.
A simple “Hey…what are you doing?” should be enough to stop a man when he starts flirting/ogling/commenting. If he acts like he has no idea what could have upset you, that is your cue to exit the relationship. So, finish the date, don’t have sex, and never go out with him again.
One of the reasons I fear marriage is that it is harder to walk away. I hear stories about people changing after marriage. The charming attentive man becomes an emotional/verbal/physical abuser. I always want to be able to walk away.
Elgie R.
on 18/02/2016 at 5:32 pm
The other woman’s beauty is not the threat. The threat is my man’s lack of concern for how his reaction to her beauty affects me. I know she’s attractive/stunning/a bombshell. But to have my emotional bubble invaded with his unedited gushing…I’m not having it.
In my good relationship, we did a lot of outdoor events together, and beautiful people are everywhere. It did not bother me when his eyes drifted…….I looked too! But I do not have to say “Wow…he’s so tall! His stomach is so flat! He’s so beautiful! Look at that head of hair!” And I don’t want to hear my man’s observations. I also don’t want to have to his head swiveling so much that I have to interrupt his reverie to bring his attention back to our conversation.
Jealousy is a natural emotion. I have no desire to “rise above” jealousy. I am a level-headed person, but I can feel jealous just like anyone else. Animals feel jealous. When you bring one cat into another cat’s space, you are asking for trouble. When you bring one dog into another dog’s space, dominance battles will ensue. I think it is manipulative to instigate a natural threat (jealousy) in a relationship and then chastise the threatened one for feeling threatened. And I believe men are being manipulative when they praise another woman’s assets to their main woman.
I concur with Dr. Phil’s statement that ‘Everything we do either “adds to” or “subtracts from” a relationship. There is no “neutral”.’ I remember hearing my Dad constantly drool over Sophia Loren. My mother is thin and small-busted. I saw Dad’s drooling as a constant “dig” at my mother. I can’t believe that it did not take another sledgehammer blow to their terrible relationship, which eventually ended in divorce.
When a man starts talking to me about the charms of another woman, I feel a dalliance is in the offing. I think it marks the beginning of the end of a relationship.
Magpie
on 20/02/2016 at 7:14 pm
There is no “neutral”.’ I remember hearing my Dad constantly drool over Sophia Loren. My mother is thin and small-busted. I saw Dad’s drooling as a constant “dig” at my mother.
This is so true. And again men know this.
One of my long-term boyfriends who I loved to distraction, but was a real dog (trying to hustle women constantly, no doubt about this) quickly learnt never to do what you described above. It ended up being absurd: him giving compliments to women who looked the same as me.
To do otherwise, as you describe above, would necessarily make me feel bad or insecure. It’s only natural.
Now if this dog of a man, meant in the nicest possible way, understood this all those so-called nice guys do too. But they don’t care.
LauraG
on 18/02/2016 at 11:14 pm
Natalie,
I really liked how you said “Take the time to see a therapist where you can look at what’s behind your pain so that you can let go by gaining perspective and forgiving your younger self for who you think that she’s failed to be.”
I see now that I objectified my younger self and made her have to win back the attention of Mr. Swivel-Heads. It was because I had a wall up of not believing I was valuable unless I was sexual. I objectified me and then wondered why I was with men who only valued me for my looks. It was because I only valued me for my looks! I didn’t understand this until I ended my last relationship with a toxic Narcissist who did all kinds of mind-games and whose underlying motivation seemed to be to actually destroy lovely, strong women. It took me a good year and lots of therapy reading to look in the mirror and realize how I had toxic belief systems that made me participate in this woman-hating belief system. In a nutshell: my father hated women and incested me thus teaching me to self-destroy.
What I have learned is to stay calm and go slow and truly listen to my gut feeling. Because I am UN-learning such a huge inner lesson, I figure I need to be gentle and patient. For several months I dated a very nice man who did not lie, cheat or look at other women when we were together. He did not end up being a man I wanted a committed relationship with but I got a lot of healing from how kind and accountable he was. What I got to practice was trusting that I could have new behavior and that I could be loved for just being a person…not for being a beautiful woman. I went slow, listened to my gut, spoke up at the time, and got to see that I could act differently and thus attract differently.
I just have to say that my last Mr. Swivel-Head was exhausting. It is awful to have to compete with other women. I love other women and when I am not with someone like that I can compliment them and enjoy them. It is so nice not to be with that kind of a man.
Crystal
on 19/02/2016 at 12:33 am
Go Laura!
That’s excellent work on overcoming a terrible thing that isn’t easy to work through.
Getting-There
on 19/02/2016 at 5:18 am
Laura, That is incredibly insightful and rings a lot of bells for me too.
Also, I am only just learning at 40 something years of age, that my gut instinct is my guardian angel…Still, better late than never.
Magpie
on 20/02/2016 at 7:05 pm
For me as well, I think all women share this experience. I mean from an early age we’re told that the most important thing (even though this might be fading it’s still there) for us is to be attractive, but also taught that women who are overtly sexual, in other words attractive to men, are not to be respected. Add to this, is the way advertising plays on our insecurities about how we look.
Men know that it’s disrespectful to talk about how they are attracted to other women in front of their partner, believe me.
Any man who does this does not care for you, or your feelings. Or doesn’t see you as a serious candidate worthy of his being careful/respectful in this way. As some have written, it could indicate a lack of maturity, but if that’s the case why be with a baby?
My last boyfriend at the start talked about his ex-girlfriend, or even one woman he had had hot sex with (or a woman who was super-sexy and interested in him). I quickly did it back to him, talking about men this way and it shut him up pretty smartly.
What it showed me then, and it was at the start but it proved right, was that his attitudes to women were extremely sexist and he basically felt he could do and say what he wanted.
If it was unthinkable for me to talk about men like this to him, why did I have lower standards in terms of his behaviour? Not normal.
Finally, those couples you see teasing their partners about having a crush on a singer or TV star can do this, because there is no threat. Talking about Jennifer Lopez is hardly going to affect me. But again, most healthy relationships wouldn’t have too much of this, I’d suggest.
All of this behaviour is majorly red flaggish. I’m glad you women can see it for what it is and aren’t discounting it as ‘just what men do’.
Kellia
on 26/02/2016 at 1:37 pm
I am SO glad I saw this post from Natalie and read all the comments. I find that men who don’t have their act together will act this way and hint at other women. And they’re also incredibly immature. I was with a man for 6 months and found out he had nothing going for him. He was a failure in all aspects of his life, he was in his 40s and still hadn’t figured out his career. He had all kinds of health problems and was on the verge of bankruptcy. No money, no health, no career, ZERO going for him. The only way he could make himself feel manly was to comment on other women in my presence. How this actress was so hot, how this other TV personality was SO beautiful, incessantly and it wouldn’t stop.
I would just ignore his comments, but then realized it wasn’t stopping. So one time, I just couldn’t take it anymore and told him his comments didn’t make me feel good and to stop. So he made sure to up the ante and his behavor got worse, and he labelled me as insecure (typical reaction). For example, he was commenting on a former model, going on and on how hot she was. So I said she should be hot, she’s a model. What did he do, comment even more HOW HOT FRIGGIN HOT SHE WAS! So I gave him a warning that if he wanted to continue doing so, he could, but that’s not the kind of person I wanted to be with. He stopped for a while, but then got so resentful he coudln’t make such comments. And he would tell me I’m insecure for not tolerating his comments.
I finally dumped him, because all the men in his family used this tactic to feel manly and their doormat partners tolerated this. These men were as big losers as this guy. This guy would validate himself by hinting at other women and he did it on purpuse. He was training me to put up with this shit like the other women in his family, but there was no way in hell I was going to live like this. I’d rather be with a guy who validates himself through his accomplishments, e.g. by creating a company, becoming more successful in his career, running a marathon, etc. The funny thing is, he was the insecure one, who needed to hint at other women to make himself feel good. He was the biggest loser I’ve ever dated. I wasn’t going to have some loser treat me like crap, just so he can feel better. I dumped him and never looked back, best decision ever!
LearningLisa
on 04/04/2016 at 6:02 am
I was drawn to this conversation because of the FWB relationship I just ended (read: I’m the one that ended up wanting more, so I bailed). It was easy to put him behind me when on our last night together he suggested we watch a copy of an actress’s stolen home-porn video (from the same a-hole that stole nude photos of Jenninfer Lawrence). I was so incredibly horrified that he was ok watching this woman’s deeply private video only meant for her boyfriend. I imagined how she walks on set everyday knowing the crew have seen it and my heart breaks for her.
But the weird thing is that now, a month later, I’m finally going through a bit of a mourning phase and trying to excuse his willingness to objectify like that! I was so ok with it all until just a couple of days ago when suddenly I started missing him and wanting to forgive his attitude toward women. I consider myself a feminist too. AND I have a daughter who must put up with a society like this and I would do anything to protect her.
So I was fascinated with why I, of all people, was trying to excuse his behaviour (there’s more objectification in our history but I’ll spare you all). Glad to know others grapple with it as well.
Michelle
on 04/04/2016 at 7:54 pm
Hi LearningLisa… I can relate to that too. In my situation, he was a photographer and wanted us to do a photo shoot. (We are local performers, so this isn’t unusual; his photos are typically of women in various states of undress, also not unusual. My issue is not with female nudity – read on).
I was open to doing a photo shoot but hesitant because I was unsure of where we stood with each other in terms of our friendship/romantic connections. He sent me photos he had taken of another model so I could see an example. I remember thinking, “Does this woman know you are sharing (essentially) nude photos of her?” I wrote to thank him and said, “And please thank the model for her willingness to share her photos with me as an example.” As in, “You better not have shared these without her knowledge.” As we know, if the thought crosses your mind, there’s a reason. Your intuition is speaking up for you.
Long story short, I ended up doing a photo shoot but kept my clothes on. I used the photos for promotional materials until I had new (*cough cough* better) ones done (after I broke it off with him). Bottom line, trust your instincts… men who place themselves in a position of authority/power this way and don’t take it seriously are at least sketchy and at most dangerous. If you’re a male photog shooting nude photos, you should recognize the position of power you are in, shift as much power/control to your model as possible and show us you can be trusted not to exploit it.
Similar to this guy you were seeing, LearningLisa – I knew, if he shared her photos so casually, there would be nothing stopping him from doing the same to me. When a man feels so entitled to share photos, view photos *without the model’s permission*, that’s a huge red flag and don’t think they won’t violate your privacy eventually.
LearningLisa
on 05/04/2016 at 5:32 am
Interestingly the betrayal of this woman’s privacy bothered me so much that I hadn’t even given my own much thought. And I certainly should!
Today a friend helped me shake out of my attempts to dismiss his behaviour by reframing it a variety of ways – including ‘what if he placed a hidden camera in someone’s room and uploaded it himself?’ It’s really the same violation even if he only watched and shared it. I have to remember just how horrible this is! Writing and talking about it is SO helpful.
I’ve been running Baggage Reclaim since September 2005, and I’ve spent many thousands of hours writing this labour of love. The site has been ad-free the entire time, and it costs hundreds of pounds a month to run it on my own. If what I share here has helped you and you’re in a position to do so, I would love if you could make a donation. Your support is so very much appreciated! Thank you.
Copyright Natalie Lue 2005-2024, All rights reserved. Written and express permission along with credit is needed to reproduce and distribute excerpts or entire pieces of my work.
Manage Cookie Consent
To provide the best experiences, we use technologies like cookies to store and/or access device information. Consenting to these technologies will allow us to process data such as browsing behaviour or unique IDs on this site. Not consenting or withdrawing consent, may adversely affect certain features and functions.
Functional
Always active
The technical storage or access is strictly necessary for the legitimate purpose of enabling the use of a specific service explicitly requested by the subscriber or user, or for the sole purpose of carrying out the transmission of a communication over an electronic communications network.
Preferences
The technical storage or access is necessary for the legitimate purpose of storing preferences that are not requested by the subscriber or user.
Statistics
The technical storage or access that is used exclusively for statistical purposes.The technical storage or access that is used exclusively for anonymous statistical purposes. Without a subpoena, voluntary compliance on the part of your Internet Service Provider, or additional records from a third party, information stored or retrieved for this purpose alone cannot usually be used to identify you.
Marketing
The technical storage or access is required to create user profiles to send advertising, or to track the user on a website or across several websites for similar marketing purposes.
Well, I think one thing is stating that one finds another person attractive or talking about a star one fancies as a joke and another thing is crossing appropriate boundaries like asking if any of your girlfriends are hot and would be interested in a threesome. It is not ok either to talk about ex-girlfriends and their preferences and performances in bed and for you to know anything about his very young ex’s great tits (I am not making this up!). All this makes you feel like crap because he starts to bring other people into a relationship that should be about two and not three people and if you are insecure, you start to compare yourself to ex-girlfriends (!!). I personally think that we all have a very good gut feeling about what is ok for us and what isn’t. I have learned the painful way that when I don’t listen to my gut, I have to pay the price.
OMG Teresa. Mine would also suggest a threesome too and even went as far as asking who I would choose, and then spitting out names of women I didn’t know but knew he had messed around with. Incredible. Always talking about other women…always. And every women he was with, he’d take up some hobby of theirs. He had no originality of his own. If they roller skated, he would have a great interest in roller skating, if they were painters, he would decided to learn to draw, etc., etc. And he would let me know about these interests and mention the girls name that corresponded. I didn’t listen to my gut either…just buried my head in the sand because I didn’t want the pain. But there was pain…a lot of it.
Having been on this track, I empathise with this lady. However after my 2nd partner also cheated on me I decided to look withina little and find out if I had anything to do with it. This was back in the late 70’s early 80’s and I was blessed with friend who was a counsellor who suggested I look at the works of Louise Hay and Florence Scovel Shinn.
What came to light was a very deep hidden insecurity about being abandoned and not feeling worthy of another person’s fidelity. These days I listen more and more to my gut feeling and it really does save me from feeling “let down yet again” Plus I tend not to seek acceptance from others but am happy with myself. I am about to turn 70 so don’t give up but look to yourself and realise what a lovely human being you are 🙂
I’m very cynical about guys who have a need to tell me the physical virtues of other women…and to me, it is a dealbreaker…I don’t care how long we’ve been going out together…first date or several months..you have a need to tell me about other women’s beauty….?…I am out.
A man wins points with me by keeping those thoughts to himself. We all have thoughts, and contrary to this social media culture, we don’t have to say everything that is on our mind.
In my one seriously good relationship, I had to deal with this one evening. I let him finish his thoughts about the attractiveness of another woman, I told him that I don’t like hearing his views on other women’s beauty and it would be best to keep those thoughts to himself. I didn’t feel a need to explain any further, nor did he try to bait me with “You’re insecure.” I knew he cared about me because he never did it again.
But I’ve also had a FWB relationship with a man who would call me to talk about all the “honeys” he caught sight of, always at an affair that he may or may not have invited me to…and even though I wasn’t interested in him as a “boyfriend”, it still irritated me that he always had compliments for other women and never once complimented me in all the years we’d known each other. After I ended the FWB thing, I noticed his compliments about other women had no effect on my psyche…they actually made me happy to be out of the FWB thing. So I’ve learned that when I share my body with a man, it is a requirement that I have an emotional security bubble that no other woman is allowed into, and for me, that means my man never directly talks to me about another woman’s beauty.
And believe me, men are no different.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS RESPONSE.
I couldn’t agree more. SOOOOO spot on, it made my stomach turn. THANK YOU, Elgie.
Starr
If I could give you the biggest round of applause, I would.
You are absolutely spot on. Until we Women stop putting up with this immature, insensitive and down right disrespectful behaviour from men…. it will never stop.
Men triangulating women is classic emotional abuse and manipulation.
I recall once him actually saying to me “So how does it make you feel when you know I sleep with other women?”
It took several years of this manipulation and emotional abuse before I finally had enough and discovered I needed to love myself. When I look back at what I put up with, I shiver.
arsehole
Seconded!
Women ARE beautiful. Instead of being wounded by this fact, we should celebrate each other. Strong women are not in competition with each other. Good self esteem doesn’t mean banning any reference to other women’s beauty. The problem is with how (some/most?) men think objectification of women is remotely acceptable. Not other women’s beauty. I don’t tolerate men who objectify me, or any other women. I don’t want superficial compliments on my appearance, yet ban other women from being called beautiful in my presence. That makes no sense whatsoever, and is how your comments read, sadly, Elgie. All women ARE beautiful, and no woman should be threatened by this. I don’t tolerate any man who is only interested in me as a sexual object, no way, yet sadly, that is the vast majority of my experience. I’ve been single 13 years, and staying that way, and celebrating other women’s beauty, until a man who is worthy of my interest, a man who is a genuinely good human being, and recognises me as such, comes along. If he never does, I will still celebrate other women’s strengths and beauty. If he does come along, it’s important we can celebrate women’s strength and beauty together at times, plus the occasional man who warrants it. As some human beings are amazing, and it’s they who are the light in the world. Never try to extinguish other’s lights. It just dims your own. Be secure in ourselves, first and foremost. In spite of our experiences. Security and self esteem is an inside job.
‘Women ARE beautiful. Instead of being wounded by this fact, we should celebrate each other.’
If you find yourself disgusted when a guy goes on and on about the sexual attractiveness of someone he saw on TV – thats not me failing to celebrate women. Thats me thinking I’m with a juvenile. Especially interesting to think whether this guy has anything to say about women in any other way – as politicians, doctors, writers, artists, mums, sisters whatever. No? Just as sexual beings there for his satisfaction? UGH. No thanks. I didn’t spend decades becoming an adult so I could still be around adolescents.
I had a boyfriend that went on and on about supermodels. We were young but even then it bothered me. Not that these women aren’t beautiful – if you see them on TV, and you say she is beautiful, thats fine. But if this woman is nowhere on TV right now, and is in your head all the time, I will judge your maturity and general capacity for intelligent living. AND this guy had poor boundaries with women, poor platonic boundaries. So his relationships to women were disrespecting me.
I want a guy with a filter – I don’t appreciate empty talk about ‘sexiness’ or ‘eff-ability’. Keep it in your mind.
Commenting often about the sexiness of other women is a sign of immaturity, in my opinion. It’s how I expect teenagers to be as they become used to their sexual selves. Of course supermodels are beautiful! Duh! I don’t need to be constantly aware of how other women have the potential to turn my bloke on. It’s childish, and therefore irritating. It’s a huge turn off for me.
I can appreciate a woman’s beauty, and I am aware that everyone else can too. But by objectifying women right in front of me makes me question a man’s motives. Is he trying to big up his own virility or trying to put me in my place, or both?
I really like trifle but I don’t go nuts and verbally salivate every time I see one in the supermarket. I don’t have to keep going on about how much I love vanilla custard and fresh cream.
Interesting one Nat! I think what’s needed to keep your sanity in life in relationships is to master the two aspects of feeling attractive. First is finally believing that you are attractive in general, meaning you truly see and value your own beauty as a woman on your own. However , once you enter a relationship you need to believe that that particular person finds you specifically attractive. Since you do not live in other people’s heads that person has to consistently give you outward cues and reassurances that YOU are attractive to THEM ,not just attractive in general or as a woman or whatever.
There are plenty of very attractive( in general ) who I am not specifically attracted to. The less a man gives you outward cues that he is STILL attracted to you( attraction can wane) you won’t be that bothered at all if he mentions that some other person is attractive to him. But in a relationship where that person hasn’t quite figured out what cues you as an individual need to assure you that they are attracted to you specifically very much (some people take for granted that just remaining in the relationship should demonstrate that they are attracted to you,which it doesn’t).
Of course you need to bolster your own sense of your own beauty but there really is a need for feedback from the other person in ways that resonate with you individually once you are in a relationship.
I have not taken issue with this issue with guys whose way of showing me they thought I was attractive TO THEM matched with my world view but I found myself struggling with guys who were not affectionate with me and demonstrative of their attraction to , Kookie , in the way I wanted but could go on for hours bout some other woman. A man should not be your only source of validation about your attractiveness but he is also the only person who can validate whether you specifically are attractive to him specifically and not in general to the world.
He used to flirt openly when we were out (and by out I mean out of town…we didn’t do things in our own community). Flirting with waitresses, women that were sitting with us at a concert, etc. And then he would ask me “So do you think I was flirting?”
He would also always take a phone call from another woman while I was sitting beside him. And always end the conversation with “see you soon” or “love you too.” The pain was so great on my end that I would just remain silent instead of telling him that it hurt me. He would never have understood anyway.
Then there were the times that he would say “So, is it wrong to want someone that is in a relationship?” What I now know is that he delighted in breaking couples up to get the girl, and then she was left with nothing. I actually did say to him once…”well if you work on getting someone that is already taken, you need to be sure you want them and will treat them right.”
So many other examples. All painful. At the time, I buried my head in the sand. I was never, ever one to look at his phone or go through his computer because I just didn’t want to know. Perhaps that is why he made it a point to let me know…he wanted to hurt me.
Just another typical trait of the N. They are dangerous creatures.
Wow, Rewind. That man had a master’s degree in emotional abuse.
The only way to find the men who are worth having is to be vigilant, always keep what YOU want at the forefront of your mind, always do what is best for YOU, and be prepared to walk away for good at the FIRST mistake he makes.
A simple “Hey…what are you doing?” should be enough to stop a man when he starts flirting/ogling/commenting. If he acts like he has no idea what could have upset you, that is your cue to exit the relationship. So, finish the date, don’t have sex, and never go out with him again.
One of the reasons I fear marriage is that it is harder to walk away. I hear stories about people changing after marriage. The charming attentive man becomes an emotional/verbal/physical abuser. I always want to be able to walk away.
The other woman’s beauty is not the threat. The threat is my man’s lack of concern for how his reaction to her beauty affects me. I know she’s attractive/stunning/a bombshell. But to have my emotional bubble invaded with his unedited gushing…I’m not having it.
In my good relationship, we did a lot of outdoor events together, and beautiful people are everywhere. It did not bother me when his eyes drifted…….I looked too! But I do not have to say “Wow…he’s so tall! His stomach is so flat! He’s so beautiful! Look at that head of hair!” And I don’t want to hear my man’s observations. I also don’t want to have to his head swiveling so much that I have to interrupt his reverie to bring his attention back to our conversation.
Jealousy is a natural emotion. I have no desire to “rise above” jealousy. I am a level-headed person, but I can feel jealous just like anyone else. Animals feel jealous. When you bring one cat into another cat’s space, you are asking for trouble. When you bring one dog into another dog’s space, dominance battles will ensue. I think it is manipulative to instigate a natural threat (jealousy) in a relationship and then chastise the threatened one for feeling threatened. And I believe men are being manipulative when they praise another woman’s assets to their main woman.
I concur with Dr. Phil’s statement that ‘Everything we do either “adds to” or “subtracts from” a relationship. There is no “neutral”.’ I remember hearing my Dad constantly drool over Sophia Loren. My mother is thin and small-busted. I saw Dad’s drooling as a constant “dig” at my mother. I can’t believe that it did not take another sledgehammer blow to their terrible relationship, which eventually ended in divorce.
When a man starts talking to me about the charms of another woman, I feel a dalliance is in the offing. I think it marks the beginning of the end of a relationship.
There is no “neutral”.’ I remember hearing my Dad constantly drool over Sophia Loren. My mother is thin and small-busted. I saw Dad’s drooling as a constant “dig” at my mother.
This is so true. And again men know this.
One of my long-term boyfriends who I loved to distraction, but was a real dog (trying to hustle women constantly, no doubt about this) quickly learnt never to do what you described above. It ended up being absurd: him giving compliments to women who looked the same as me.
To do otherwise, as you describe above, would necessarily make me feel bad or insecure. It’s only natural.
Now if this dog of a man, meant in the nicest possible way, understood this all those so-called nice guys do too. But they don’t care.
Natalie,
I really liked how you said “Take the time to see a therapist where you can look at what’s behind your pain so that you can let go by gaining perspective and forgiving your younger self for who you think that she’s failed to be.”
I see now that I objectified my younger self and made her have to win back the attention of Mr. Swivel-Heads. It was because I had a wall up of not believing I was valuable unless I was sexual. I objectified me and then wondered why I was with men who only valued me for my looks. It was because I only valued me for my looks! I didn’t understand this until I ended my last relationship with a toxic Narcissist who did all kinds of mind-games and whose underlying motivation seemed to be to actually destroy lovely, strong women. It took me a good year and lots of therapy reading to look in the mirror and realize how I had toxic belief systems that made me participate in this woman-hating belief system. In a nutshell: my father hated women and incested me thus teaching me to self-destroy.
What I have learned is to stay calm and go slow and truly listen to my gut feeling. Because I am UN-learning such a huge inner lesson, I figure I need to be gentle and patient. For several months I dated a very nice man who did not lie, cheat or look at other women when we were together. He did not end up being a man I wanted a committed relationship with but I got a lot of healing from how kind and accountable he was. What I got to practice was trusting that I could have new behavior and that I could be loved for just being a person…not for being a beautiful woman. I went slow, listened to my gut, spoke up at the time, and got to see that I could act differently and thus attract differently.
I just have to say that my last Mr. Swivel-Head was exhausting. It is awful to have to compete with other women. I love other women and when I am not with someone like that I can compliment them and enjoy them. It is so nice not to be with that kind of a man.
Go Laura!
That’s excellent work on overcoming a terrible thing that isn’t easy to work through.
Laura, That is incredibly insightful and rings a lot of bells for me too.
Also, I am only just learning at 40 something years of age, that my gut instinct is my guardian angel…Still, better late than never.
For me as well, I think all women share this experience. I mean from an early age we’re told that the most important thing (even though this might be fading it’s still there) for us is to be attractive, but also taught that women who are overtly sexual, in other words attractive to men, are not to be respected. Add to this, is the way advertising plays on our insecurities about how we look.
Men know that it’s disrespectful to talk about how they are attracted to other women in front of their partner, believe me.
Any man who does this does not care for you, or your feelings. Or doesn’t see you as a serious candidate worthy of his being careful/respectful in this way. As some have written, it could indicate a lack of maturity, but if that’s the case why be with a baby?
My last boyfriend at the start talked about his ex-girlfriend, or even one woman he had had hot sex with (or a woman who was super-sexy and interested in him). I quickly did it back to him, talking about men this way and it shut him up pretty smartly.
What it showed me then, and it was at the start but it proved right, was that his attitudes to women were extremely sexist and he basically felt he could do and say what he wanted.
If it was unthinkable for me to talk about men like this to him, why did I have lower standards in terms of his behaviour? Not normal.
Finally, those couples you see teasing their partners about having a crush on a singer or TV star can do this, because there is no threat. Talking about Jennifer Lopez is hardly going to affect me. But again, most healthy relationships wouldn’t have too much of this, I’d suggest.
All of this behaviour is majorly red flaggish. I’m glad you women can see it for what it is and aren’t discounting it as ‘just what men do’.
I am SO glad I saw this post from Natalie and read all the comments. I find that men who don’t have their act together will act this way and hint at other women. And they’re also incredibly immature. I was with a man for 6 months and found out he had nothing going for him. He was a failure in all aspects of his life, he was in his 40s and still hadn’t figured out his career. He had all kinds of health problems and was on the verge of bankruptcy. No money, no health, no career, ZERO going for him. The only way he could make himself feel manly was to comment on other women in my presence. How this actress was so hot, how this other TV personality was SO beautiful, incessantly and it wouldn’t stop.
I would just ignore his comments, but then realized it wasn’t stopping. So one time, I just couldn’t take it anymore and told him his comments didn’t make me feel good and to stop. So he made sure to up the ante and his behavor got worse, and he labelled me as insecure (typical reaction). For example, he was commenting on a former model, going on and on how hot she was. So I said she should be hot, she’s a model. What did he do, comment even more HOW HOT FRIGGIN HOT SHE WAS! So I gave him a warning that if he wanted to continue doing so, he could, but that’s not the kind of person I wanted to be with. He stopped for a while, but then got so resentful he coudln’t make such comments. And he would tell me I’m insecure for not tolerating his comments.
I finally dumped him, because all the men in his family used this tactic to feel manly and their doormat partners tolerated this. These men were as big losers as this guy. This guy would validate himself by hinting at other women and he did it on purpuse. He was training me to put up with this shit like the other women in his family, but there was no way in hell I was going to live like this. I’d rather be with a guy who validates himself through his accomplishments, e.g. by creating a company, becoming more successful in his career, running a marathon, etc. The funny thing is, he was the insecure one, who needed to hint at other women to make himself feel good. He was the biggest loser I’ve ever dated. I wasn’t going to have some loser treat me like crap, just so he can feel better. I dumped him and never looked back, best decision ever!
I was drawn to this conversation because of the FWB relationship I just ended (read: I’m the one that ended up wanting more, so I bailed). It was easy to put him behind me when on our last night together he suggested we watch a copy of an actress’s stolen home-porn video (from the same a-hole that stole nude photos of Jenninfer Lawrence). I was so incredibly horrified that he was ok watching this woman’s deeply private video only meant for her boyfriend. I imagined how she walks on set everyday knowing the crew have seen it and my heart breaks for her.
But the weird thing is that now, a month later, I’m finally going through a bit of a mourning phase and trying to excuse his willingness to objectify like that! I was so ok with it all until just a couple of days ago when suddenly I started missing him and wanting to forgive his attitude toward women. I consider myself a feminist too. AND I have a daughter who must put up with a society like this and I would do anything to protect her.
So I was fascinated with why I, of all people, was trying to excuse his behaviour (there’s more objectification in our history but I’ll spare you all). Glad to know others grapple with it as well.
Hi LearningLisa… I can relate to that too. In my situation, he was a photographer and wanted us to do a photo shoot. (We are local performers, so this isn’t unusual; his photos are typically of women in various states of undress, also not unusual. My issue is not with female nudity – read on).
I was open to doing a photo shoot but hesitant because I was unsure of where we stood with each other in terms of our friendship/romantic connections. He sent me photos he had taken of another model so I could see an example. I remember thinking, “Does this woman know you are sharing (essentially) nude photos of her?” I wrote to thank him and said, “And please thank the model for her willingness to share her photos with me as an example.” As in, “You better not have shared these without her knowledge.” As we know, if the thought crosses your mind, there’s a reason. Your intuition is speaking up for you.
Long story short, I ended up doing a photo shoot but kept my clothes on. I used the photos for promotional materials until I had new (*cough cough* better) ones done (after I broke it off with him). Bottom line, trust your instincts… men who place themselves in a position of authority/power this way and don’t take it seriously are at least sketchy and at most dangerous. If you’re a male photog shooting nude photos, you should recognize the position of power you are in, shift as much power/control to your model as possible and show us you can be trusted not to exploit it.
Similar to this guy you were seeing, LearningLisa – I knew, if he shared her photos so casually, there would be nothing stopping him from doing the same to me. When a man feels so entitled to share photos, view photos *without the model’s permission*, that’s a huge red flag and don’t think they won’t violate your privacy eventually.
Interestingly the betrayal of this woman’s privacy bothered me so much that I hadn’t even given my own much thought. And I certainly should!
Today a friend helped me shake out of my attempts to dismiss his behaviour by reframing it a variety of ways – including ‘what if he placed a hidden camera in someone’s room and uploaded it himself?’ It’s really the same violation even if he only watched and shared it. I have to remember just how horrible this is! Writing and talking about it is SO helpful.