Have you ever sought to be invited to something that deep down, you know that you don’t really want to go, you just want to be invited? Have you ever felt really into somebody, not because you truly are but because the moment you realised that they weren’t interested and/or unavailable, not only did you almost want to correct them like, “Hey, you made a mistake in not being interested in me. Here’s why…” but they suddenly seemed so interesting and desirable once you knew that you couldn’t have them?
Us humans are contrary folk that sometimes let our egos run ahead of us. That same desire that makes us want something now that we know that we haven’t been offered it or can’t have it, is not only that same desire that causes millions of people to suddenly start blowing hot the moment that they’re unsure of whether their ex still wants them, but also the one that some people use to deliberately encourage us to trust them even though they don’t truly have good intentions.
Trust is an exchange of faith and while some of us trust ourselves and others, some of us are more reserved or even terrified of trusting because certain experiences have caused us to put up walls to protect us from vulnerability. We stop trusting ourselves and decide to red light everything because we’re trying to protect us from a bigger future pain. We put up walls because we want to ensure that we don’t go through a past pain again, not realising how walls close out everything both good and not so good.
One of the reasons why I encourage people to address their trust issues is because ironically, walls make us more likely to engage with people who really shouldn’t make it within 50 miles of our circle of trust.
Us having a wall up makes us more likely to be reliant on some heavy duty flattery from somebody who we feel would allow us to right our wrongs of the past and who on another level, we recognise that it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy where we get go, “See, I was right – there’s no point in trusting”, not realising that our beliefs affect our mindset, affect our choices. If we believe something, we’re biased to look for evidence to support it, otherwise we’d have to change our beliefs. Walls say, “No one is trustworthy including myself” whereas boundaries say, “I recognise that not everyone is trustworthy so I will listen to myself, so my due diligence, be discerning and be vulnerable enough to show up and adjust my level of interaction accordingly”.
When we have trust issues, we make the mistake of thinking that if a person works really hard to win us over and to ‘break down’ our walls, that they must be really into us, but aside from the fact that walls means emotionally unavailable which distinctly skews who we’re going to gravitate to anyway, we’re setting us up for pain by being reliant on somebody not respecting emotional, mental and even physical boundaries as our marker for opening up. “Charming” tends to be a precursor to code red problems.
Some people, once they know that you have trust issues, feel compelled to prove to themselves that they can win your trust, and then once they have it, boom, the uncertainty that they feel due to the lack of control they feel from not being trusted, disappears along with their motivation. They don’t want to genuinely earn your trust in a mutual interaction – they just want a moment where they can say, Shazam! I’ve got him/her now, and then they put the trust medal on their mental display case, press the reset button and move on to pastures new.
Some people need to feel needed and some people need to feel trusted, not because they are trustworthy but because somebody who is reluctant to trust seems so much more valuable than somebody who would go in with an open mind but quickly discern that that this person isn’t trustworthy and shuffle them out with boundaries.
It’s a boost to their ego that they’re lowering a person’s defences. For some, there’s no doubt that it’s a game for them and for others, it’s lack of self-awareness – they are not honest with themselves about their motivations and so they don’t know why they’re doing what they’re doing or feeling what they’re feeling.
The not so funny thing is, is that when someone who needs to feel trusted thinks that they’ve won over our trust, they panic! Why? Because now that they’ve earned the trust of somebody who has trust issues, they think it comes with big expectations that they won’t be able to live up to.
Much like the person who fears success feels increasingly afraid of doing better for fear of creating greater expectations which might open them up to disappointing others or criticism, the person who fears being trusted, fears being relied upon and the expectations that might come with that. What if I’m not able to do what he/she expects of me? Now granted, there may be expectations stemming from feeling as if it’s a massive deal that we’re finally trusting someone but odds are, the expectations that they’re afraid of, are ones that they themselves have created. They could have slowed their roll, not said and done certain things and taken their time to go through the whole getting to know process but no, they had to go giving the big I am. They then either disappear or start behaving badly or certainly in a manner that contradicts what they’ve been putting across, all to relieve this feeling of being expected from.
If we don’t want to be seen as a challenge for shady folk or even the don’t know their arse from their elbow folk, we have to address our own trust issues so that we don’t mistake someone laying it on thick with trowel to charm and disarm us, for a trustworthy opportunity. We’ll be like that person who hasn’t eaten for several months who finally gets a cracker and thinks it’s the best food they’ve ever had. It will also hurt that much more because when we have walls up, we tend to be starved out of affection, attention, hopes, and so after a lean period, somebody working so hard to win us over can seem like all our Christmases come together, but then when it doesn’t work out, it can cause us to end up obsessing because it feels as if we gambled and should have won but lost big instead.
We have to be vulnerable in order to trust and if we begin to forgive ourselves for our past pain so that we can compassionately understand what we’ve been through and begin to heal, we start to restore faith in us. The fact that somebody breached our trust doesn’t mean that we’re “stupid” or a “fool”, or that what they’ve done is a permanent statement of what to expect from others in future.
We can’t live our lives treating everyone like wolves. When we take the time to understand why we have trust issues by looking at the beliefs hangover that we have from past experiences, we learn about where we’ve judged ourselves and made generalisations. We can learn to be boundaried instead of walled so that we’re open to good experiences and able to opt out of what doesn’t feel in alignment with us. When we allow us to recover from those painful experiences of trust, we know our own trust and so we will no longer be receptive to somebody who is glib and charming in order to give us a feeling of being reassured without giving us consistent action of actually being trustworthy.
Your thoughts?
Don’t forget that I’ve got a 30-day project, Embrace Healthy Boundaries which teaches you about the difference between walls and boundaries and shows you how to regain your trust in you by acting from a boundaried place.
It’s hard not to feel a little guilty or foolish for allowing wolves to be my wall buster. I might not be stupid or foolish but somewhere deep inside it’s hard not to think so (I let it happen right?). I’m 42 yo and have finally (yes, finally) learned my lesson but, unfortunately the last EUM sucked the last of what love and trust I had to give in a relationship as an ego stoke and I let him. Nat is right when she says all we can do is adjust ourselves according to the person and situation. But this is a lot easier said than done. It takes a tremendous amount of self-awareness, boundary setting, therapy and a general sense that people are not inherently self serving and manipulative. It also takes the ability to let go of “failures and mistakes” before moving on and, if most of us were able to do this we wouldn’t need to read this blog! Anyway, I get the point of the article and it’s a great reminder. I just wish that I understood much more about people and relationships when I was younger, but if you come from a chaotic, abusive (on all fronts) household like I did then I guess it’s amazing I understand anything at all.
Madeleine
on 04/11/2015 at 3:18 pm
Hi
Try not to feel guilty or foolish as you put it, as Nat has said elsewhere (paraphrasing..) there’s nothing wrong with wanting to be loved and loving, it’s just sometimes the person you love is not the right choice.
Something that helped me when trying to make sense of a very painful experience that lasted years was thinking that the qualities he had were what I needed to develop in myself – the positive ones – and my attraction and need for him came from that.
If you look at it this way, you won’t be tough on yourself.
All of us reading this blog have loved the ‘wrong men/women’ – people who have abused or mistreated us. None of this is our fault, or foolish..
Thanks Nat for this exceptional entry, really – it sums up my situation perfectly as I try to navigate a new relationship post the abusive one.
Thankyou 😉
Cate
on 03/11/2015 at 12:14 am
Wow, Natalie, I’m almost a little scared at how profound and timely this post is! I kept wanting to look behind me or up at the sky or something as I was reading. One big booming awesome message from you and the Universe at just the right time. Thank you for this! What an incredibly insightful description of the crazy and crazy-making dance that can go on between one walled and fairly distrusting gal and one super unaware emotionally unavailable guy. Thank you for spelling it out so perfectly and offering such great inspiration for self-care and healing!
Lucy
on 03/11/2015 at 12:37 am
Thanks for such an insightful post. This reflects events in my life. I had a trust barrier up and it made more susceptible to men who would be on the charm offensive. But the men I ended up with didn’t like me at all, they just liked the challenge and saw it like a game. Now I know I won’t be easily fooled by overblown gestures again.
By being open and showing more that I can be vulnerable, I realise that people feel more at ease around me. Rather than seeing men as a stumbling block I’m starting to see their human side, as creatures with vulnerabilities themselves who want to be loved as much as I do. I also find that when I’m more assertive with my vulnerabilities, it’s easier to spot the bad eggs. I’ve seen quickly that being more open, I get a better gauge on which men actually care about true emotional bonding. This is not me putting it all out on a plate in front of them, it’s just allowing myself to be human and not putting on so much of the tough girl facade.
A good way is to think is “If I was a loving and generous man, what kind of woman would I want to encounter?”…
The Wild One
on 04/11/2015 at 11:36 pm
I had never in my life made myself so emotionally vulnerable to a man as I did a few months back. I did it partly because I was hoping he would say he felt the same way about me. Not only did he not reciprocate he also gaslighted me & I was crushed. I distanced myself immediately for the sake of self-preservation. I avoided any place I knew he’d be. I simply disappeared from his life & after a week, he came looking for me. It has been many months since then & he still makes it so that we “coincidentally” run into each other at least once a week. It is very painful for me as seeing him tears open the wound again. I don’t know what his agenda is. If he does not like me then I wish he’d just let me be.
Wiser
on 05/11/2015 at 3:40 am
Wild One, your story really resonates with me. I too had to deal with an ex that kept showing up in public places where I was, although in my case I don’t think it was deliberate – I think he had disposed of me so thoroughly in his thoughts and feelings that I don’t think he ever thought of me again after dumping me – so I don’t think it occurred to him that I might be there too. This didn’t change the fact that it was still immensely painful for me to see him and like you it tore the wounds open again for a long time afterwards.
Some advice… first, you can’t understand him or his agenda, and you can’t control what he does or where he goes. Who knows why he does what he does. Who cares. It doesn’t matter! Realizing you don’t have this control is actually a kind of freedom. Therefore, don’t put ANY energy there.
Second, realize that you are not helpless in controlling your own feelings – you have more power here than you think. Figure out ways for YOU to deal with the inevitability that yeah, you will run into him from time to time. How can you minimize those encounters? How can you minimize the emotional toll it takes? How can you strengthen yourself when that happens?
Here’s an example: Not only did I run into the ex socially (this is a very small town), I also had to work with him for a long time after he discarded me and once had to sit in a three-day training workshop that he led. I also had to attend a work retreat that he AND HIS NEW GIRLFRIEND were leading! The whole thing was like a big cosmic joke at my expense and beyond ironic… and I remember sitting there wondering what kind of karmic retribution life was extracting from me. The situation was so absurd that I got a kind of wry amusement out of it. Everyone was fawning over him as a great teacher, a great leader and he so enjoyed being the center of attention. But you know what? I sat there having to look at him and listen to his self-satisfied lectures and I thought to myself, over and over, “Remember what he said, what he did, and who he REALLY is.” I knew what a creep he really was, even if our colleagues didn’t. And that little mantra strengthened me and kept the painful feelings at bay. I urge you to find something like that which will work for you.
The Wild One
on 05/11/2015 at 3:53 pm
Thank you Wiser. I have minimized my contact with him as much as possible by avoiding being in certain places at the times I know he’ll be there. My problem is he seeks me out as he knows what time I normally show up. I have changed the days I show up ( as I can’t change the time) many times over to frustrate him & make him give up but he persists all week long until he sees me & then he lets a week go by & does it again. After he told me he didn’t reciprocate, I respectfully gave him his space & left him alone. It makes me angry that he has not been respectful of my space. He could easily avoid me if he wanted to but he doesn’t. It’s incredibly hurtful.
Noquay
on 08/11/2015 at 5:57 pm
Wild One
Give him your back; turn away. He wants to be seen as the “good guy”; he isn’t.
The Wild One
on 05/11/2015 at 4:18 pm
Wiser, what a painful experience it must have been for you. You are a strong individual with dignity & character. It takes a lot of grit to stand your ground in such a trying situation with your head held high. Well done.
Digs
on 05/11/2015 at 6:14 pm
A good way is to think is “If I was a loving and generous man, what kind of woman would I want to encounter?”…
I love this. Lightbulb moment.
Noquay
on 08/11/2015 at 5:51 pm
Wiser
Makes me sad that you had to go through that. When that’s happened to me, and Narcboy is currently and ironically on a pedestal, at least enough colleagues know what a joke he is so at least I have several people to roll my eyes at and smirk with. Sadly, in a small town, the guy often able to move on and the woman generally remains alone. You run into them often because there’s only one grocery, one good restaurant, one very small post office. One phenomenon that has worked for me has to do with my being highly visible in the community for doing good things for the people whereas he and she pretty much ignore the community, and its needs, as much as possible. When I show up to a function, half the room greets me, show up at a restaurant, my favorite wine is put in front of me immediately, and Narcboy et al. ignored. Despite the huge difference in personal values, folk in a small place do judge you by what they see you actually DOING and BEING. Drives Narcs crazy.
Smiley
on 03/11/2015 at 12:40 am
Definitely relate to this, having a year ago finally got out of a relationship with someone who went to great lengths to win my trust and as soon as he had it did so many hurtful and untrustworthy things it was hard to believe he was the same person. I did call him out but cue more charm from him, a gradual retrusting from me then a reversion back to Mr Shady. A draining, confusing rollercoaster and if I’d been less walled off when I’d first met him I’d have been less enthralled by his charm offensives and reoffensives, more able to see his ‘real’ self when it emerged and more able just to let go and move on. Boundaries rather than walls – great advice. Can see now self respect and self trust leading to healthy boundaries would have saved me a lot of pain.
tyla
on 03/11/2015 at 4:11 am
Excellent post! I’m fairly certain I’ve been walled most of my adult life which explains a lot. Boundaries, not walls!!! Makes so much sense. Prob one of your best posts to date.
Ziggycat
on 03/11/2015 at 10:15 pm
Totally agree, amazing post that couldn’t have come at a better time, I love nat’s wise words and those of the amazing people on this site.
True no nonsense advice and support.
Boundaries, not walls. So true!
MaggieMay
on 03/11/2015 at 4:31 am
Natalie,
Thank you so much for this posting. I just had been saying to my girlfriend and therapist, how is it possible to keep attracting charming men? They turn off the love and dating when they want…it’s like “AHA, gotcha!” Now I don’t have to try anymore. I was so lonely in my relationship. He had went from available to unavailable like a flick of the switch. I became a love addict almost scratching to try to figure out what happened. The more I talked about that we were not connecting the more he pulled away.
–Your quote,
“It’s a boost to their ego that they’re lowering a person’s defences. For some, there’s no doubt that it’s a game for them and for others, it’s lack of self-awareness – they are not honest with themselves about their motivations and so they don’t know why they’re doing what they’re doing or feeling what they’re feeling.”
My very recent latest boyfriend, turned on the charm hard…I kept telling him, it’s not normal to buy a woman a lot of gifts (jewelry mainly) in the beginning. It should last the continuum of the relationship. The first 6 months were pretty great, but I saw a few things, (red flag for me) him ignoring his mother instead of working on the problem. I would bring them up and he would take serious note of it. He had some baggage but never asked me to carry it. Then he had a traumatic situation with his two kids, (in May) regarding his ex (kids’ mother) in which she is not allowed to see the kids.
So a few things happened here. I have an avoidant (as seen with non discussions with his mother and bottles his feelings). Then as he has always been custodial parent he is now sole parent. These kids are trauma kids. It’s sad and I knew he would be shifting time. I asked for a break. He said he could handle it. Can you guess what happened?
Four months later, I told him we were taking a 30 day break. I am still in it. I realized he became love avoidant, my love addict kicked in, I felt abandoned. I took the break because the kids became mildly abusive and he let it happen more than once. I took the time for me to figure out the real “chess game” and give those kids their dad. I am in a program for my co-dependence and another Anonymous group as well. I thought at first I was a major problem to this, but realizing I picked someone who was a “charmer” and an “avoidant.” I realize I deserve someone that wants me in their life and makes choices to have me in it as well.
Thanks for the topic. I welcome feedback.
starr
on 03/11/2015 at 5:19 am
I love this:
We can learn to be boundaried instead of walled so that we’re open to good experiences and able to opt out of what doesn’t feel in alignment with us. When we allow us to recover from those painful experiences of trust, we know our own trust and so we will no longer be receptive to somebody who is glib and charming in order to give us a feeling of being reassured without giving us consistent action of actually being trustworthy.
Kriss
on 03/11/2015 at 5:37 pm
This has so much resonance for me – especially the bit about walls being a challenge for some people which is exactly what you’re trying to avoid.
I’ve also found that trying to hold back from an involvement simply makes me over-think things and then do something impetuous as a way of overcoming the stress of thinking you’re about to be hurt. So it’s hard but important to be a bit more measured.
Loved this post.
Michelle
on 03/11/2015 at 8:03 pm
Last weekend, after months of NC, I filled in as a performer in a show that happened to have my ex-EUM in it. When I got to the rehearsal before the show, he did this whole thing about cheering for me that I was going to be in the show and I thought, “What are you doing?”
The director calls me up to the stage and she’s praising me about my willingness to jump in, etc. and I hear him say “HUZZAH!” at the mention of my name. I just tried to ignore him because it felt so awkward to me that he was doing this. He talked to me about a thing when we were going to be on stage at the same time but I quickly agreed that we would stay to our own sides of the stage. Later, he made an aside comment to me during practice that I imagine was intended to be “helpful” but it came off as his mansplaining to me as if I were clueless. I probably gave him a withering look. He left me alone the rest of the night.
I realized that, as “nice” was he was trying to be, it was annoying. It felt disingenuous and weird for him to act chummy. I felt like he was using this as a way to test the waters. Sometimes, I have doubts like, “Was that unprofessional? Should I have been more “open” and done this whole display of working together and let bygones be bygones?” But I can’t pretend the past isn’t the past. What would I have preferred? Something like, “Listen, I know this is weird because we used to perform together when we were involved and I want you to know that I respect whatever feels OK for you. If you’d like to talk about the pre-show, I’m open; otherwise, if you’d like to stick to our own sides of the stage and be separate, I will follow that.” I would have thanked him. I would have made the same decision to perform separately but he would have utterly transformed how I saw him if he had said that. But, of course, if he were a person who would say that kind of thing and think about others in that way… we’d still be together. lol
Instead, he acted like there was no history between us and I hated him for it. It felt dishonest and disingenuous and I wanted him to cut the crap.
I noticed he has to be talking to someone all the time. He seems very uncomfortable just sitting still and being where he is. And if you’re not gushing with approval, he runs away. I wanted to see how it felt to stand near him and he can’t sustain it – he’s needing the approval/reassurance. I’m not here for that but this is what he used to use me for all the time. And I don’t need it from him. I don’t need the validation or the cheering. Just stop. It doesn’t feel sincere – it just feels like a way for him to see if I will give it back to him so he doesn’t have to face the consequences of why we’re not friends.
It’s like he doesn’t fully grasp that things have changed. I am no longer going to be your ego stroke – and giving *me* validation isn’t going to get it in return from me. I don’t want it. I don’t need it. I’ve given you quite enough already. You took a lot from me and I’m not in that role anymore. Get it?
It’s the whole consequences thing. I’m not willing to pretend. I’m not going to be a jerk but I don’t have to talk to you. I don’t have to laugh at your jokes or watch your performances or do anything I don’t want to do. We’re not friends. There are consequences for using me and crossing my boundaries and I have a choice about who I deal with or not.
Thanks to all of you and this blog, I know this now and I refused to play along with him for the sake of his comfort or outward appearances.
Veracity
on 03/11/2015 at 11:12 pm
Congrats, Michelle for protecting yourself and treating yourself as the valuable person that you are!!
Michelle
on 04/11/2015 at 1:45 am
Well, thank you, Veracity! It feels good to be in this place.the doubts pass quickly – I know it’s just me adjusting to this new way of being. With time, it won’t even faze me. Thanks for the support.
Diane
on 04/11/2015 at 2:44 am
I think that’s the thing I resent more than anything about my time with the EUM. This guy would literally beg & plead to be with me. He would go to whatever lengths necessary. He didn’t buy me jewelry or flowers, but there would be tears – he’d get down on his knees and clasp his hands together. He’d call/text/email me to death. Every time I told him I didn’t think it was working between us and we seemed to want different thing (putting up a wall) he would SMASH it down. Of course, then he’d be right back to his same shenaningans within a week or even a few hours. At the time I knew nothing about guys who just see this kind of thing as a challenge – I took it all at face value that if he was going to this much trouble, he must want to be with me in the way I wanted. I don’t think I will ever forgive him for that. I’ve had to forgive myself for being human and capitulating to his tears and pleas – it’s hard not to when you care about someone and you didn’t have any relationship role models growing up – and all you had was pop culture, which tells you that guys pursue you fiercely and that actually means something. Let me tell you for anyone still in this game – it DOESN’T.
Sally
on 04/11/2015 at 10:47 am
I totally agree with your comments Diane. Since I was a teenager I always knew about men and the thrill of the chase and was hurt by a few boys back then changing the minute you let them know you had feelings for them and I learnt some hard lessons back then. I was married for twenty years and when my marriage ended, amicably, I got involved with my first EUM.
He charmed me and pursued me when I was not particularly interested in the beginning and it took over a year for me to agree to see him, the first few months were great although looking back there were red flags. I was not expecting to get into a relationship so soon but the minute I let my barriers down he changed, just like that, his communication became shoddy and I constantly hoped he would return to the person he was in the beginning.
It ended over two years ago now and I have managed to maintain NC for over a year now, but I have not forgotten the lessons that it taught me, I always thought I had a wall around me, I feel better thinking of them as barriers now also.
I am a much happier calmer person now, have not dated since and have not had any desire too. I am not frightened of it anymore though, I shall take what I have learnt with me for the rest of my days.
BR has helped me over the last couple of years more than anything or anyone could, hence I still come back regularly and read the posts to keep me on the straight and narrow.
xxx
Stephanie
on 04/11/2015 at 4:43 pm
Sally,
Good for you! It does get better!! My believe is once you get yourself back to your baseline of happiness you will be fine. My belief is don’t shy away from love because of shady AC behavior. I met a couple more duds after AC but it got better because I didn’t take the rejection personal. Just dusted myself off and lived my life.
C.B.
on 04/11/2015 at 7:09 pm
You’re posts are always pertinent and on point. I’ve been doing a lot of “self analysing” over the last year and a lot of your posts have helped me summarize my needs and create myslef some much needed boundaries. As a little background storry, I’m soon to be 30 years old and the longest “serious” relationship I have had was 4 years (between 20 and 24 years old, he was my common law partner). I have dated a few men since but it didn’t work out with any of them. One relationship lasted almost 2 years but it was so casual I can’t even call it a “relationship” (he was much older and we both knew it could never work). Than a year ago I thought I had found someone with whom it was going to be real. We were together 6 months, I was getting ready to meet his folks, introduce him to mine. I thought after a year together we might start thinking about moving in together. But he was one of those guys who was only trying to “get me”. He was the type of guy who came from a whealthy business familly and he never in his life had to deal with hardship (I on the other hand was raised by a single mom and had to learn how to take care of myself and that the world isn’t alway fair from a very young age). You know the type of kid who when he managed to get 50 000$ in debt (about 25 000 GBP) at 19 years old didn’t worry about it because daddy was going to bail him out. But he was a charmer, he said everything right, he treated me like no man had treated me before (he wanted to spend all his time with me, he wanted me to sleep over even on week nights, he cooked for me, he took me out on dates and paid every time (although I always offered to pay my part and sometimes invited him myself). He was sweet, funny, caring. He was a boyfriend. But alas, it turns out he didn’t think of me as his girlfriend. He never intended to introduce me to his family. I was a rebound to him. You see he had been with his ex less than 2 years, he left her 2 months before he met me. He left her for what seemed to me to be good reasons: She wanted kids, he didn’t, she had a big dog at home, he didn’t want to live with a dog, he had a healthy sex drive……she wasn’t into sex at all (he said it felt like he was forcing her whenever she “agreed” to it and that made him feel uncomfortable). Anyway, he left her for that (and possibly other things) and we took things slow and it all seemed like it was working out for us but then last March he went on vacation to his parent’s house in Florida (we’re in Canada) for 2 weeks and I was waiting for him to come back (he couldn’t really invite me since it was his parents house and I hadn’t met them yet, I was fine with that). But when he came back, something was different. He told me he needed to be alone for some time, that he wasn’t seeing “us” as a serious relationship and that he needed more. Turns out his ex (who’s dad also has a house in Florida, albeit in another city) flew over druing the same dates and gave him a call to meet him (they had broken up over 8 months prior….she had a new boyfriend….she knew he had someone). He drove all the way to her city, they spent the night in a hotel room and she promised him the moon (she would get rid of her dog, she would agree to not have kids and she would open her legs to him whenever he felt like it). And that “messed up” with his head and that’s why he ended things with him. And I let him seduce me, I let him make me think that this was real. There was red flags but I didn’t have healthy boudaries. It’s been 6 months since, I’m much better now (sometimes I’m mad but mostly at myself). I feel pitty for this girl. I realised I didn’t want to be “that” pitifull girl. And I know I must not think that all men are wolves (although the last few ones that have been in my life were not good partners). I had started seeing a guy in July. He was not the right partner either and I laid out my boundaries to him and it didn’t work for him so I made the conscious decision to end it. It felt amazing to do this for myself and not let another ass clown take over my life and make me his puppet. I know what I want as a relationship now and I’m excited to find a good person to share my life with and to have him accept my boundaries while I accept his. Thank you for helping me improve my attitude towards….well towards life in general.
Paula
on 04/11/2015 at 7:35 pm
I ended a friendship with a man because he constantly brought up the issue of my “walls” and then would say disrespectful things accusing me of being manipulative and passive aggressive because of my “walls”. Of course, it took me a while to realize I was being manipulated and that in fact the person with the walls and vulnerability issues was him not me. I called him on this and his disrespect and he apologized and we have not spoken since. I am good with that. The thing is, the middle gound is the place to be. I am not going to make myself vulnerable to anybody who makes me the least bit uneasy and I do think friends, co-workers, lover do in fact have to demonstrate some amount of trustworthiness as we do to them, before we can all be vulnerable. It is not even that hard. Somebody who does what they say they are going to do, that person is likely trustworthy on some level. Somebody who flakes out, makes excuses, or tells long drawn out stories about why they flaked out, not trustworthy. People who get angry when you won’t spill their guts five seconds after meeting them, not trustworthy. Anybody who demands instant intimacy, not trustworthy. I think women are often made to feel guilty if they don’t like somebody, because women are supposed to be nicer and caring and we get pushed into being vulnerable and shamed if we hesitate. Then we ignore our gut instinct because it is not “nice” and then shit gets real and often painful.
Oona
on 04/11/2015 at 10:17 pm
I was taught NOT to follow my gut instinct and always people please, by my immediate family as a child, in order for them to maintain power and control over me I understand now. I then followed on to repeat this behaviour in my adult life believing that this was the way to gain true love – totally unaware – as I had been falsely taught. All the men and friends I had around me, had the power and control over me – leaving me more and more isolated and therefore more keen to please and ignore my gut.
Some men are taught this also as children I believe but it is interesting that many many women I talk to share similar experiences of what I experienced as an adult and I wonder if this goes back to their childhood conditioning?
Having to take a back seat to other children or adults around them?
Michelle
on 04/11/2015 at 10:20 pm
Thanks for your comments, Paula. You’re right – if we’re not “nice,” then we’re a “bitch.” And that pressure takes its toll on our well-being when we don’t feel like our needs matter. This site teaches us we can tend to our needs instead of worrying so much about other people and filling impossible needs. But gosh, it is so tempting to fulfill them and feel like (hooray!) we finally met this impossible standard. The problem isn’t our inadequacies – it’s that we need to opt out, as NML puts it. She’s right – and the challenge is: replace it with something else of our own making, that isn’t based on someone else’s approval. But, man it feels so easy to just go back to what you know. When you’ve been running the same damned race over and over, you become conditioned to the starter pistol. It’s hard to take off the shoes and walk away from the track – it’s a reflex and it seemed to hold so much promise; if only I could “win”! But the track is the damned problem. I’m done running! I’m doing other shit now and soon, I will forget about this stupid track. (Apologies to anyone who loves to run and for whom it is head-clearing lol)
Oona
on 05/11/2015 at 8:43 pm
Michelle this is a really good analogy thank you – yep it is a really hard instinct to over turn but awareness and forgiveness of ourselves really really helps ie a much more open field to wander through at our leisure and joy.
Oona
on 04/11/2015 at 10:02 pm
Yes when we know fully our own trust – ie knowing or aware that we are not feeling happy or safe and listening to our inner self – whether or not it is declared real and acting on it – is truly a gift worth having.
The description of putting up walls vs boundaries, I found quite hard – at the minute I am debating with myself which are necessary boundaries and which can perhaps be over the top – or is this another way to stop me putting boundaries in? – so maybe there is further work to do on trusting my instinct. At the minute I stick and act with instinct rigidly – if I feel uncomfortable in any way I get out of there and watch but this does leave me with a very discerning palatte and very few make it to the list of comfortable – ie two people in the last three years.
The reality is I am terrified of confrontation and when setting boundaries in the past have come up against considerable nasty confrontation – in order to control me I presume and sadly it works. I will do anything to avoid confrontation – even though my instinct tells me months before to walk away.
I am still the starving child who thinks a cracker is a four course meal – even though I have managed to find two people who cook a nice three course meal reliably.
Oona
on 04/11/2015 at 10:07 pm
Equally when I come up against problems in the relationships – as we all do – I have actually attempted to open up and speak with actually three not two people and they have all been responsive – I would have to walk away if they weren’t my trust level in others and my ability to handle it is so low. These experiences are rare not the norm in my life still and this makes me question myself because I’m not engaging with many people.
The Wild One
on 04/11/2015 at 11:15 pm
I’m a very friendly person but I’ve always been a little leery of men. I’m particularly suspicious of men who seem to have an interest in me & are overly confident or cocky. My error was in assuming that someone who seemed shy, sweet, & socially awkward would stay that way once I demonstrated that I liked him. I was utterly dumbfounded how this person did a complete 180 & turned into a cocky jerk & seemed to have devalued me in the blink of an eye. I was very hurt when I told him I had feelings for him & he replied by apologizing for misleading me (even though he had been aggressively pursuing me for many months) & then telling me that he was in a relationship. I was deeply wounded & shut him out completely & immediately from my life. I did it so quickly & suddenly, he didn’t know what hit him. Unfortunately, I still can’t seem to shake him off of my tail. He continues to seek me out & he’s been unbelievably persistent. I honestly don’t know what he wants as he never says anything to me but he makes it so that I’m aware that he’s present by placing himself a few feet away from me when he could easily avoid doing so. It’s as if he’s trying to keep himself relevant in my life. Sometimes I get angry & I want to confront him but if I do, I risk being gaslighted again & looking like a fool. Sometimes I get anxiety attacks knowing I’m going to run into him & that I have to try to act normal. Sometimes I wish I’d never been so friendly to begin with & then maybe I wouldn’t be in this mess.
Wiser
on 05/11/2015 at 3:58 am
Some more thoughts on this… (I responded above as well). I would encourage you to keep your distance physically when you find yourself in the same room as your ex. If he’s on the right side of the room, you stay on the left. If he moves in your direction, you move away. If he tries to stand near you, calmly go somewhere else. If you have to walk past each other and it’s too awkward to just ignore him, an unsmiling nod of the head (don’t slow down, don’t stop) is enough acknowledgement.
I know this sounds like it requires an exhausting amount of hyper-vigilance to keep up your awareness of where he is at every moment. But I’ve discovered from experience there is power in this too. Controlling yourself is a kind of empowerment. Don’t make eye contact. Don’t join conversations where he is. Since he doesn’t talk to you, at least you are spared making any kind of lame, idle chit-chat. Absolutely DO NOT confront him. Whatever his game is, you are definitely not playing. He doesn’t exist as far as you are concerned. He is not your problem. Your feelings – and control of your feelings – are your problem. Focus on that instead.
Michelle
on 05/11/2015 at 2:43 pm
Good words, Wiser. Staying clear on what’s ours and what is theirs, doing right by our values without getting sucked into their agenda. The bottom line is, they know they’re shit and they liked it when we denied that/built them up. They hang around to see if we’re still handing out ego strokes. If we “misinterpret” it as interest in us, they don’t care – more ego boost for them. They want us to respond positively not bc they love/care for us but so they can feel like they’re not an asshole. This is why NC is so hard for them – and for us – but that’s also why it’s so necessary. They don’t want to FEEL like an asshole – we want them to not *BE* an asshole.
The Wild One
on 05/11/2015 at 4:02 pm
Than you for the advice Wiser. Up until now I have done just as you mentioned above. I place myself on the opposite side of the room but he follows me. I move away & again he follows me. He is not my ex. We were still getting to know each other when I told him I liked him. We have never been intimate. I am very guarded of my personal space so there was very little physical contact. No kissing. No hugging. No flirty touching. Just conversation.
Oona
on 05/11/2015 at 8:27 pm
If this is always in public OUT him from his secret little game. He is betting on you saying nothing and not defending yourself from him which in his head = she loves me, I am lovable.
For example loudly exclaiming to the room ‘ARE YOU FOLLOWING ME AGAIN? – LEAVE ME ALONE.’ Or
‘I AM SURE YOU ARE AMAZING BUT i AM NOT INTERESTED – LEAVE ME ALONE.’
If others are also aware they can support you by taking note let alone anything else – if they aren’t aware, you remain on your own in a room of others and he is playing/banking on this/manipulating you.
This is one of the traits of a highly manipulative person – if he has done this many times, it is clear he doesn’t see any boundary at best and may continue to do so, upping the anti. Most individuals on being ignored many times would take the hint that you are not interested, not get off on it and see it as reason for following you further on future occasions.
This is not acceptable behaviour to put up with. If it has happened repeatedly it is not going to simply go away – you have to take action that you are comfortable with but equally protect yourself at the same time.
Oona
on 05/11/2015 at 8:38 pm
If you make any statement to the public, make sure you only say it the once and do not allow yourself to be drawn into any other discussion with him.
If you really really have to say something – keep ON msg over and over…ie ‘I’m still not interested’ really loud so everyone is aware what is going on. This puts a social pressure on him and supports you at the same time.
Then after that you need not pay any attention to him at all – You have made your boundary clear, you have made your feelings plain – and in public.
Next options involve basically non contact – away from any places where he may also be which includes Wisers points about not staying where he is or looking at him etc… and/or advice from the police on harassment – which is what he is actually doing to you.
Wiser
on 05/11/2015 at 8:53 pm
Considering how minimal your relationship was, what he’s doing sounds downright creepy and disordered. I don’t know if it qualifies as stalking, but it sure seems close. This is a different situation than you learning how to ignore somebody who *happens* to be around now and then, and might require a different tactic to get him to stop. If he’s deliberately following you to this extent, you might need to send him a stern warning to stop it or you will go to the police. He’ll deny it of course, but don’t reply. Then keep track of every time you run into him and how he behaves. You might need it as evidence.
Only you know how serious this is. How does it feel in your gut? Is it merely annoying or do you feel some fear when he is around? Annoying people can be ignored. More menacing people need to be stopped.
The Wild One
on 05/11/2015 at 11:27 pm
Wiser, I was thinking the same thing about it being very close to stalking except I have no proof. Members can come & go as they please so he uses this to his advantage. Like I said, I am required to be there at a certain time although my days are flexible. I have just been ignoring his behavior hoping it would stop although, I’m uncertain if it will. I did tell a male friend to get his input on it & he thinks it’s all in my head & that I’m projecting what isn’t there. I don’t think I am, though. He is very subtle about it when there are many people around but when there’s only a few he watches me very intensely. Some times when he places himself close to me & I can’t move away I just turn my back to him so that I can’t see him from my peripheral vision but even then I can feel him watching me. I don’t think I’m paranoid because I’ve never had this happen to me before or experienced anything like this. I find it more annoying than frightening so I’ve simply tried to ignore it.
Oona
on 09/11/2015 at 12:42 pm
This isn’t paranoia – this is your instinct telling you you may be in danger – ignore it at your peril. His movements as you describe, do not suggest innocent behaviour – and are alarming to me as someone who has been through stalking. They ALWAYS do it in a way that they could claim innocence – ususally because they are experienced in this behaviour and know that it will help them look innocent and you look like you are paranoid/crazy – but one warning needs to be clearly put in place – then if he breaks it you know what you are dealing with and what help you should be accessing – if you don’t you are basically setting up a home with no walls and carrying on as normal as if nothing is happening.
Claire A.
on 06/11/2015 at 1:06 pm
This is similar to what happened to me with a guy who I was attracted to in the workplace (I wasn’t there as a paid worker); he started following me around there. As soon as I started going in there he seemed really stunned by me to the point of sitting there with his mouth dropped open in a trance if I even smiled at him, walking past me and looking up to the ceiling with his face screwed up like a 2 year old about to cry; yet he couldn’t really get any words out even though he’s usually sociable/confident with everyone else.
To cut a long story short, because I could see he couldn’t cope around me I started avoiding him as I knew we could never date due to his over-emotional reactions to me. Instead of him backing off he then started popping up wherever I was in the building and literally following me around – turning around in the corridor and staring and then walking off etc. Even though I was still attracted to him it felt quite boundary-busting as a decent guy would surely have just got the message that I didn’t want to take things any further (i.e. by me starting to avoid). It was like the more I backed off, the more suffocating/manipulative he got in terms of trying all sorts of ways of getting my attention – following, showing off etc. I hadn’t discovered BR at this point (I found it whilst searching the net re. this incident!); however my gut instincts were continuing to scream at me to stay away (I’m someone who always follows my instincts – I never doubt them) and so in the end I decided to not keep going into that work place anymore and left. After some time I discovered he’d had a girlfriend nearly the whole time he was engaging in this bizarre behaviour towards me – he was doing all this towards me before he met her and then simply carried on once he got together with her. By far the strangest way a guy has ever behaved towards me – no real conversation but just following.
The Wild One
on 06/11/2015 at 9:22 pm
@ Claire Yes!! I’m attracted to him as he’s very handsome but his behavior creeps me out so I’ve been trying to avoid him.
Claire A.
on 06/11/2015 at 10:39 pm
Yep – there was sky high chemistry/attraction between this guy and me and perhaps that, combined with his immaturity, was what was freaking him out so much resulting in the creepiness. This guy *really* shouldn’t be acting that way in the workplace anyway as he was front line public sector – in a role that people automatically tend to trust. I suppose that’s partly why I figured he’d be a decent sort – I know better now than to make assumptions based on a job!
Misa
on 05/11/2015 at 7:46 pm
May be the secret for having healthy boundaries is time? Walls work immediately, and this makes them unflexible. Boundaries need time to be put in place, they need us to get to know people, even if a little bit.
The problem is that people in general nowadays have no time, especially in big cities. Many out there don’t care about getting to know people, whether as a (potential) friend or a (Potential) partner.
Furthermore, as women we are very quickly given a label and this adds up to the walls vs. boundaries problem.
e.g. : I went on a non-date with a guy: we were supposed to have dinner at his place with other (new-ish) friends, but everybody canceld, so I agreed to a quick beer, he lives close to me. Yes, this was a mistake on my part. I shouldn’t have gone, but to me it was pretty clear that I wasn’t interested, it was by no means a date, and I thought that we could just drink a beer, and see each other at the re-scheduled dinner, just like adults do. I wanted to have a conversation and get to know a new person. I wasn’t being ambiguous nor EU, I was simply taking my time. Impossible.
I didn’t realise that, in spite of having seen me 2-3 times and never had in-depth conversations, he had formed an idea about me and he interpreted our communication according to that idea.
“I am sweet.” When I told a friend that he said this, she laughed and said “Well, you are much more than that!”.
Yes, but some men work with labels, and of course it’s wishful thinking on their part.”She’s not that bright, or may be she is intelligent but bookish, not “street”; a bit boring; she wants me to marry her like, tomorrow; she’s compliant”.
I am simply not aggressive, especially now that I don’t put up walls like I used to do. If you’d talk to me for 2 minutes you would realise that I am far from this “pretty Mary Sue” image he (and not only he) apparently has.
But, simply because I am a woman, I have to deal with men like him projecting their ideas on me.
Example of things he said:
“Can you flirt, like, at all?!”
“I can’t believe you and X are best friends! I mean, no offense to her, but she’s…well…” He meant a slut, though he didn’t say it. Of course: an attractive woman is either some kind of angelic fairy, or a hypersexual witch…I answered “Well, it takes time to know somebody. You know nothing about her and nothing about me.”
His answer: “Really?”
…
This episode really made it clear to me that, no matter how emotionally healthy we are, whether we will be able to use boundaries or be forced to put up walls even at very early stages is not entirely up to us. Still, in this phase I’d rather risk being slightly mellow (because underneath there’s steel 🙂 ) than risk closing up once again.
Veracity
on 05/11/2015 at 11:45 pm
I’ve noticed that the better I get at setting and maintaining healthy boundaries, the more I trust myself to handle people and situations and the easier it gets to set the boundaries. The cycle just gets stronger/easier. I have far less anxiety now because I trust that whatever happens, I can handle it. It may not turn out exactly like I would like, but the world isn’t going to end and I will not be destroyed.
In general, I’m far more relaxed and easy going and people are responding positively. I’m finding I care a lot less about what people think or what their reaction is going to be. I’m focusing internally rather than externally.
My walls are being replaced by boundaries and it feels fantastic!
meka
on 06/11/2015 at 1:55 am
Wow, this actually made me really sad. After being single and discerning for 3 years, I met someone who seemed like “the one.” He ticked all my boxes, did everything right – communicated consistently, asked me to be exclusive before sex, traveled with me, made me a priority, etc. 11 months in, we had our first argument (because a woman called his phone early in the morning and I asked who it was). We were at a point that I expected to be a milestone (meeting his kids) but he said the argument startled him, that I don’t trust him, he has unresolved issues, etc – and 7 weeks later we are still not communicating regular. He is at a crossroads, unsure what he wants – unsure about anything really. What struck me about this article was that on our first date, he mentioned how “gated” I was and that he couldn’t wait to get to the “golden gate.” Falling for him was easy and he still says he loves me, but he did mention “pressure” and “expectations” that he’s unsure if he’s ready for. A lot of relationship gurus say it’s normal for men to withdraw in this way when they are scared, and to give them space. And I try to empathize because I know he had issues from being severely abused as a child. I’m ready to tell him this isn’t working for me but at the same time I don’t want to give him that satisfaction. This situation with him has motivated me to start therapy (he was obviously right that I have trust issues and insecurities) because I realize that I’ve mistrusted every man I’ve dated for no good reason other than I loved them. I want a thriving partnership. I’m still hopeful about him, but can’t deal with the limbo much longer. Any advice?
Wiser
on 06/11/2015 at 4:05 pm
Meka, well, actually he didn’t tick every box, the one that says “I know that I want to be with you and I’m in it for the long haul.” That’s a pretty important box, paramount in fact. The fact that he can’t tick this one doesn’t mean he’s a bad guy, but it is a red flag about whether or not he can be the strong, consistent partner you want. There are a lot of good people out there who won’t make good partners until they do the painful work necessary to grow up and mature. If the guy doesn’t know if he loves you and wants to be with you, then his feeling aren’t that strong. I don’t believe any amount of “space” with change this. What should you do? Let him go, wave goodbye and wish him well. Not a bad guy but not for you. Don’t settle for lukewarm feelings!
This whole pattern sounds sadly familiar. Guy wants to get past the “gate,” i.e. enjoys the chase, and gives a lot of attention in the beginning. Then he gets restless and at the first argument wants to step back… says he wants “space” but most likely realizes that he really doesn’t want it to get too serious and is now wondering if someone even better might be out there for him. He’s honest about the fact that he doesn’t want “pressure” and “expectations” which are code words for the commitments that people undertake in deep, healthy relationships. He doesn’t want that! He doesn’t want what you want! Listen to him!!
Sofia
on 08/11/2015 at 2:06 am
Meka,
The same words were told to me in the first 3 months of the relationship. Of course back then it was a different me. I can’t recognize now who I was back then. Crazy scary to see it was me. He told me he doesn’t want pressure and expectations (yet he wants a long-term relationship. I think he meant he wanted a real like relationship but with no work put towards it. I don’t know, it doesn’t matter anymore). Later many times when I asked (should have walked away in the 2nd month of the relationship) him if he thinks we could have a potential he would tell me he is still thinking and although he loves me and cares about me, he is not sure yet. He loved me one month then was not sure the next one. Forth and back.Listen to him. They usually tell you the answer themselves. His answer is that he doesn’t want to settle down. That’s exactly what it is. He is not ready for serious relationship, for commitment. Don’t wait for him. He already told you everything you need to know.
Astrid
on 06/11/2015 at 9:27 am
I hate how much emotional and mental space we women give to men and their shitty issues. We agonize over their every move. We blame ourselves and search ourselves and try to gain insight and grow, and love, and care and understand. And in my experience, they do none of this in return. I’m emotionally unavailable and bitter now, in my soul. I don’t want to be, I know it’s awful and unfair and sweeping. And yet that’s how I feel. Thinking of dating makes me feel nothing but a fear of misrepresentation and abandonment down the road. They make my heart sick, and I believe any romantic interaction with them leads to pain and confusion. It’s so unhealthy. I’ve been reading this site for years and years, and I have been somewhat successful applying her knowledge to my life, in other words I’ve gotten out a lot earlier than I would have before, and I have been able to clearly size up manipulation and red flags. But I have also continued to have some really crappy experiences, too, and my being open to the lottery that is dating is now closed again. NML is very spot on. All of this is true. And yet I feel I cannot trust myself. Even if I’m able to call bs and get out, even if I move on to date someone else, it all ends the same way. I’m not perfectly enlightened and I have not resolved my abandonment issues, but I deserve real love. Why hasn’t it happened in all of my 36 years? I don’t know. This is where you turn a critical eye on yourself. Again. Try and figure out how you can grow and where you need work with you. But this time, I’m not doing it in the hopes for romance. I’m doing it so that I can love my life even if it’s just me. I have to seriously consider that my match may not happen for years – or ever. I may never be able to love someone and have them love me too. I may never have kids. What will my life be like if I embrace that possibility? Will I endure a double misery or enjoy what my life has to offer and live it? This is my decision. As for men and whether I’ll ever land a good one, I just can’t even give any more mental space to it right now. It is driving me nuts, and it’s seriously depressing.
Wiser
on 06/11/2015 at 9:42 pm
Astrid, I’m 57 and have spent the past year grieving the fact that I have never had one truly happy relationship with a man. Since I had my first crush at age 10, men = misery. Why this is the case for me, I don’t know. But I have to admit that it’s true. I didn’t want to admit this to myself because I knew it would bring about a long period of grieving (and damn, it sure has!) as well as all kinds of associated feelings of shame, failure, loss, inadequacy etc., BUT it has also been surprisingly liberating as well. On top of the fact that the whole notion of romantic love is a rather new invention in human history (and therefore NOT essential to the human person or required for happiness – except that we’ve all drunk the kool-aid poured down our throats by sappy movies, heart-tugging music, and other trappings of our cultural conditioning) this is a particularly hard time in history to find a caring, mature mate. Such a huge percentage of the population is self-obsessed, narcissistic, adolescent and entitled that it’s a wonder anyone can find a partner who is willing to commit themselves to the well-being of another person for the long haul. So the bottom line is… it sucks for so many single women like us.
What to do? Well in my case I feel like I’ve worked through the grief, and run the gauntlet of loneliness and fear of being alone and finally have come out the other side. I went through my dark night of deep depression about it and have now come to a better understanding of what it is that I really want. I want to be happy. I want to be happy more than I want to be loved. And since I no longer automatically equate being in a romantic relationship as a requirement for happiness, life suddenly has so much more possibility! What does an unpartnered life look like? I have wonderful examples everywhere I look! Terrific women who are either divorced or widowed and having the time of their life, alone. Making the most of their freedom and enjoying themselves immensely.
It sounds like you are already doing the right thing – focusing on your own life and making any necessary changes for your own growth and emotional health. Not to impress some guy. Or convince some guy that you are worth loving. Now, I don’t want to be cynical about love – I want to remain hopeful. If Mr. Wonderful shows up, fine. If he doesn’t, fine. But wow, to be free of all this pining and longing crap and feeling bereft because I don’t have “love” feels fantastic! I’ve been truly enjoying myself the past few months, feeling happier than I have in a long time. You are certainly too young to “give up” and I don’t think of myself as giving up either. But I encourage you to work through the bitterness and disappointment and not let it taint your natural ability to be happy – which you have whether you land a guy or not.
Astrid
on 07/11/2015 at 9:10 am
Thank you so much Wiser, I really appreciate your words. Happiness is the most important thing, and I’ve got to find it within me and only me. I’m done spending time feeling broken and unlovable. And I will make serious effort to let go of my bitterness. I have had the same experiences, from the time I had my first crush, nothing ever worked out well. The “quality” of man may have improved on paper, but that’s abut it. I’m through dwelling on feeling forgettable, leave-able, and all of the other self esteem killing garbage from these jerks.
Noquay
on 12/11/2015 at 5:47 pm
Astrid
Wiser has given good advice. I am two years younger than she but was married to an incredibly good man. The break up was due to my needing to leave the area, not a loss of love for one another. I know what a great relationship looks like but yep, it has been a dating manurefest since then. Its hard when you know what a good man SHOULD be, what a good rship SHOULD feel like and now all that is available is a mere scrap of what I had. Wiser is right, societally, we are in a bad place now for any sort of meaningful rship, even friendships. We pursue quick gratification, worship silly celebrities and ignore neighbors, family, community. Men have no real father figures so many in your age group have no clue how to even be men. I find that often it is they that are not in a place to be in a relationship, are not in touch with themselves and it is nothing to do with us. We should still put ourselves “out there”, but with the understanding that we will have to reject 99.9% of them as unsuitable, not take it personally, and in the meantime continue work on ourselves.
Sofia
on 08/11/2015 at 1:58 am
Wiser,
You wrote exactly what I wrote to Astrid just using different words and sentences:) I agree with your every sentence and thought! I feel the same way. I feel free, liberated. I feel I am finally catching up doing the things I love during my free time off work and like there is never enough time. I am never bored with myself and enjoy every minute of my day. Do you know that feeling? It’s when we were single (and we still are but now we have ourselves!) we wasted time thinking of the past or hoping to get a man or being sad about not having a man. Now I feel I am finally living. Men don’t occupy my mental space anymore (used to it was my main subject of conversation and thoughts)! I am 38 and so happy I started living finally. I feel like I started a new life and look forward to days and weeks and months of living to my life’s fullest. And like you, I am too not cynical or negative about relationships. If someone trustworthy comes along, I am willing to try. If not, be it. Feels wonderful, doesn’t it? I am happy to know someone else feels this way. I have been reading your posts and really like your attitude. You are inspiring and wise.
Wiser
on 09/11/2015 at 2:01 am
Thank you Sofia. The one consolation for the misery and humiliation I went through with the guy who brought me to this site is that maybe, just maybe, I might have gained enough hard-won wisdom to be able to write something that will help someone else.
Sofia
on 08/11/2015 at 1:47 am
Astrid, I completely understand what you are feeling. I came here on BR in February-March 2014 and have been posting and mostly reading recently since then. I have experienced a lot of positive changes in this almost a 2-year journey with Nat and BR readers. The changes have been all for the better. I am much more self-aware, self-compassionate and kind to myself. I am self-forgiving, not needing validation from other people, and not holding others responsible for my well-being and being there for me. I am easier on myself and others. I don’t expect anything from anyone. I have finally abandoned the idea that I need to have a relationship in order to live a content, whole life. I have been struggling for years and even after the breakup (January 2014) thinking that I need someone to complete me. It’s a working progress because I do feel sometimes I would like a partner. Someone to share my day story with, my concerns, my joy, thoughts, ideas, inspirations, tears and laughter and have him share all the same with me. Sometimes it still hurts me especially when I see couples everywhere I go, and I wish I had someone to share my experiences with. But if before I would get seriously sad and depressed about not being able to find and settle with a partner, now I brush it off the moment the sadness comes to me. It is becoming easier. I smile at it actually. I smile to myself and within myself. Nat posted somewhere just today about learning how to care for your young child in you, the one who was abandoned and not taken care of, and taking care of the present you too. I think I have finally learnt how to do it! I hug and hold mentally that lonely child from my past, who is needing her parents’ attention and affection, and tell her that I love her and she is not alone. I mean, I don’t do this mental talk all the time. It’s just the feelings that rush inside me whenever I get that sense of loneliness and something is missing. I know it’s coming from my childhood. I care for my wounded feelings and fill the void instantly with self-compassion. So I don’t feel alone anymore. And I don’t need someone to make my life whole. I know you are making a decision right now whether you decide to stay single and accept you might never meet anyone. I have made the decision to not worry about a relationship anymore. If it comes I am open to trying. I don’t care anymore. I really don’t. With that decision you will have peace and time and energy to care for you, build your life, focus on what you want to accomplish. If something meant to happen, it will. I believe in it. Meanwhile keep on living Your life and keep learning and thriving. Relationships are not answers or completion to anything. Only we ourselves (and God for those who believe) can make our lives wholesome and complete. No one else.
Genki
on 06/11/2015 at 10:25 pm
As everyone has said what a timely post & the comments have been so helpful!! Thanks Nat and everyone.
I’ve been separated for 2 years & been in BR same time – always so helpful when I start to struggle or need guidance. I haven’t met anyone yet & now I realise I’m probably putting up walls. I recently chatted to a guy from work about my arranging the divorce & other things & it was so helpful. But what I need to do here is stay authentic& not use my separated situation as a way to firm
A connection it should be based on our interest, attraction & other values we share. I think I actually almost went down the track of playing on the fact that I don’t want to rush into anything to lure people in but I would be attracting the wrong type of person for the wrong reason. Anyway the guy was really kind considerate thoughtful & helpful in the conversation, but I’m my own saviour & this post has helped me so much to see that.
Maya
on 07/11/2015 at 5:28 pm
I am a medical doctor myself, 33, British Indian with no children. I used to read this website often in 2011 when I was in a sub par relationship and thought I had learnt so much. I met a man in 2012 who I thought was the one. A few months into the relationship I saw his temper and felt responsible as I did something that I thought I could understand why he would be upset. I took responsibility although his anger and rage seemed disproportionate. Every few months he would lose his temper. Apart from the first time, I couldn’t really understand why he would behave so badly. I felt guilty as I was going through a stressful time with my career and thought I was bringing down the mood of the relationship. I was exhausted a lot of the time. We had good times in between. Of course, there always are cycles with this. I found myself investing more and more emotionally and truly felt we had love between us and would eventually get better. He proposed in October 2013 and I really thought it would mean he would treat me well if he was my husband. I thought he would want a happy marriage and want to be partners. We married in April 2015. The first year was tough. Frequent rages and every few months, he would say he wants a divorce. Then settle without him acknowledging his bad behaviour. I left my emotionally abusive marriage which is only 1.5 years old after he became physically abusive aswell last month during a fit of rage. There were red flags during courtship which I hoped would not evolve any further and get better after marriage. Emotional abuse has occurred on and off during the marriage, he would engage in silent treatment for weeks for small things I had said that upset him and he wouldn’t communicate even after I apologised. Once, he shoved me and has thrown a bottle near me in the past and bruised me when drunk and we were not even arguing and actually going through a better patch (so I thought) but for some reason I didn’t consider that physical abuse as he didn’t hit me or mark me. I know now that it was physical abuse but denied the magnitude to myself as I was desperate to work on our young marriage. I was trying to juggle postgrad diploma and full time work in a new job. The incident last month was black and white due to smacking my arms and pushing me very hard and smashing up my phone to the point I was so scared and couldn’t go home to him again and his blaming me again for pushing his buttons as I was trying to calm him down before during and after the abuse.
He used to do all the classic signs with anything I raised about his behaviour or pain he caused me (minimising, denial, blaming, gas lighting) and for the first time since we have been together he is remorseful as I have left. He has apologised occasionally and over the summer he admitted to overreacting sometimes. That took a lot of effort to get him to say that. Despite screaming every two months that he wants a divorce during rage he now says this is the last thing he wants and he will now get help and see a counsellor. He has admitted he has blamed me too much (all problems were ultimately mine – to the point that he insisted I saw a therapist which I did over the summer when I begged for marriage counselling and he said to drop it). However still even now he is invested in my playing a role in the poor state of the marriage and saying we need to see someone together eventually, perhaps once he sees a skilled counsellor he will start realising the role of his destructive behaviours. He is a different person in public, charming as anything and so handsome, I am always being told by others who haven’t seen the other side of him, that I am so lucky to have him.
Of course, there have been good periods in between and not every day is a nightmare but the years of Blame, intermittent rages and no accountability or admittance have left me feeling so empty and a shadow of my former self. I have a great supportive family who say they will support me no matter what but I feel lost. I am exhausted, confused and lack self esteem. I don’t know how to navigate this. Don’t feel ready to start again with him or to leave. I love him but I also feel so let down, angry and sad all at once. I question is it love or trauma bonding? The thought of leaving him feels me with sadness about how this happened after investing so much. He says he wants to be a good husband to me now but I don’t know if he has the capacity as his thinking seems so distorted and his behaviour has escalated over the years. Scared to stay and go through a honeymoon period and have children and this nightmare start again later I life. I feel he needs to enrol in a domestic abuse perpetrator program before I can consider reconciling but given that he is only now admitting there is a problem and agreeing to seeing a one to one counsellor, I don’t feel he would agree to this. Very confused about the path to take. Feel that I have lost my ability to make a good choice.
I read my posts in 2011 and felt really disappointed in myself – same thing, I didn’t have confidence to leave a bad relationship due to initial good period. This is so much worse as I am married, aware of my age and losing chance of kids and that I am the messed up one if I end up always in such bad relationships. I feel awful. Any advice?
Diane
on 08/11/2015 at 5:54 am
Maya, you are 33!! That’s young!! Get out, NOW! You can easily still have kids – you’ve got years. Get away from this guy. Screaming rages, silent treatment for weeks over small matters, hitting you, smashing your phone? And you think this will somehow get better after kids? It will only get worse – and you will have even less recourse to leave. I grew up with domestic violence – trust me, kids do not want to grow up this way. It’s HORRIBLE. If you can’t do it for yourself, at least do it for your future children. Sorry, but he’s not going to change. Did marriage change him? He got worse. Not because of you but because of HIM. Kids will make it even worse – and pregnant women are hugely at risk with violent men.
From Wikipedia: Among many other studies, [5][6][7] a study done by Isabelle Horon, DrPH, of the Maryland Department of Health and Mental Hygiene that looked at pregnancy-associated deaths from 1993 to 1998 found that homicide was the leading cause of death in women who were pregnant. Homicides accounted for 20% of deaths, compared to 6% of deaths among non-pregnant women of reproductive age. Heart disease was found to be the second leading cause of death for pregnant women accounting for 19% of deaths during pregnancy.[8]
Save yourself!!
Oona
on 09/11/2015 at 2:12 pm
Maya I am sorry that you are experiencing this nightmare and sad to read your post. Congratulations for getting it all out and down again, in writing, I know it must be really really painful right now. Do not beat yourself up – feeling lost about this sort of extreme situation is perfectly normal – it is not something anyone should have a road map to – because it shouldn’t happen simply – but we know it does and its not as rare as we believed sadly. Unfortunately there is not a magic moment where you necessarily have cracked it, do one thing to sort yourself out and move on – it is a learning that gives you an – ongoing process – with which to accept and wrestle with for ever more or pretend to yourself you have done it now and don’t need to do it right now and use it to go out and make the same cycle over again but worse. I have done this and like you learned the hard way, the really hard way but I still learned and benefited from it for real, in the end.
And before you say it – no you haven’t been really stupid – how can you know, what you did not actually know, before this happened? It is easy in hindsight, it is easy standing from the sidelines to judge, it is easy when that is all you have ever done to criticise yourself. It is not easy to learn to love yourself for real.
Here is a brief road map that has helped me to find myself in reality for the first time in my life at over 40 years old. I feel joy and peace and moments of anxiety/mess ups but nothing on the same scale since and all the things I thought I desperately needed, to feel fulfilled – it turns out isn’t necessarily true in reality and things I ignored in their importance have now brought me such growth, joy and harmony – that while I will never advocate violence or emotional abuse of any kind – I now see coming through it and growing from it, has made myself and my life better beyond any of my original expectations (that I already thought were very high).
No 1) In life your health and safety are paramount – without physical welfare you have no life – protect this first – put in place resolutions that mean you TRUST solidly you will never have to experience this from this person or others again. Decide for yourself what will make you feel this way and keep acting on it until you feel truly safe in your own home and skin. It is a commitment you have to keep every day.
No 2 Focus on yourself – ask yourself – can you really trust, even with professional outside intervention in a perfect world, that there is no possibility that this can’t happen again or worse?
If the answer is no to this question – you know what you have to do. If you can’t commit to yourself ie trust yourself – you cannot commit to others, full stop. If you don’t act, you are delaying the inevitable – which is more pain for yourself – and him also – not that he should be your concern but right now I suspect he will be, in your head?
No 3 pamper yourself – show yourself you are worth it – you did nothing that ever deserves this kind of behaviour from anyone – also do not take responsibility for it again – imagine what advise you would tell a friend of yours in a similar position and write it down – now follow it.
My pampering can involve – clean crisp sheets, hot water bottle, a candle, long hot baths, hot chocolates, chocolates, nice healthy food, nice autumn walks, going somewhere natural like river or canal or mountains or sea, doing a craft course, reading a good book next to a fire, going for a weekend break to a nice hotel or a meal on my own somewhere very good during a less busy moment… find the things that work for you and do as many as you can every day while you get through this – as a priority – one thing at least until it becomes a daily habit.
No 4 remember that you have ALOT going for you – I haven’t met you so there will be much more but you write you have – an education, job, young age (my aunt had her baby at 47 years and we forget that pre-pill pre-world war 2 years, giving birth after 35 years was actually more common than we have been led to believe in and now we have such things as IVF and other birthing knowledge/options to help also) but even if these options weren’t on your side – you can still have a greater and more fulfilling life – more fulfilling! than you have ever experienced before this calamity errupted in your life.
No 5 continue focusing on yourself – why do you not value yourself enough to have a FULLY healthy relationship at ALL times??? Look for real at those around you – saying and actually supporting you, I have found are actually two different things and not necessarily follow each other. Why are you not actually supported for real to be in a healthy relationship? And what do you need to actively put in place to change this?
No 6 Really look at the things that you are truly comfortable with, the behaviour you are not actually comfortable with and putting up with, in the hope things will get better /or you will be rewarded for your love – but don’t get actually get the full reward in reality. These boundary issues will help you learn who you truly are ( I warn you some will be good, some not so good but at least you can do something about them now and know what happens if you don’t)
No 7 write your values list of what you are really looking for in a loving life partner – everything – what values do you expect your dream relationship to have? Now does your current partner have every single one of those values? The ones he has actually demonstrated NOT the ones he says he has.
If yes then he is for you – if not – your values don’t match and he is not for you and never will be – staying with him in the hope he will change or you can cure him is not only hopeless but damaging for his development.
Somewhere on his values list, he has. that it is acceptable to treat you badly, to hurt you – verbally, emotionally and physically! – if those things appear on your true values list then you will be perfectly happy in the relationship you have and have a real reason to stay – if not, what are you procrastinating for? A house? a mortgage? a family you will never have and if you do will be further Hell with him?
Maya just at which point are you going to actually trust your own feelings and put yourself first? You cannot achieve any of the above until you really actually do listen and trust yourself. Well not happily.
Maya
on 10/11/2015 at 2:58 pm
Dear Oona, thanks so much for taking the time out to post with such detailed advice. It’s so kind and anyone who has posted, I am grateful. I have been trying to do some of the steps you said. My husband and I had a much longed for holiday booked in Asia, when the violence happened 2 weeks before. This was cancelled. I had saved to pay for the tickets as he wasn’t making much at work and planned the itinerary after researching for months as he was busy trying to get a lease signed for his business. I thought, this trip will be a reward for him and me. I had been working so hard too. Let’s start building some good memories I thought. I was trying to be positive. Anyhow, I had 2 weeks off and took myself away and it was ok to be alone. I read books, went for walks, had massages, dinners for one. Good to have time alone. He has agreed we should be apart for now. I feel lonely and empty when I come back home after looking after patients all day. I don’t know Your final questions are what I ask myself every day – what am I procrastinating for? I don’t know what this is all about or how we got here (well I do, but wish it wasn’t So). It’s the stupid, like I hope for a miracle and don’t decide due to a sense of failure in myself. He asked me ‘don’t you think you can sometimes be emotionally abusive yourself?’. It made me think, maybe he is right? I have been angry with him when he has treated me like crap. I’ve told him and raised my voice at times. Once he shoved me and I shoved him back and cried, how does it feel? You’re a bully! Though for months I have been calmer and worked on self soothing when he is nasty and walking away which i was inplementing from talking to a therapist. I wish my feelings had died for him that night and my strength grew. I’m stuck. Your words and advice have really helped. Wish you well. Thanks again
Wiser2
on 09/11/2015 at 7:04 pm
Maya,
Sometimes our mind plays games with us and comes up with excuses to avoid taking hard and difficult decisions.
“My culture does not allow this behavior” “I have invested in the house” “He promises to change” ” He cries” “He acts out under pressure”
All of these are excuses, I was with someone who cried like he really meant, but he never had any intention to change, he was just buying time and fooling me. Ultimately even his crocodile tears dried up.
You have one life, live with dignity.
Weezy
on 10/11/2015 at 1:39 am
I am so sorry for what you are going through.
But darling, you are so young. I’m 33 too. I have two sisters who are also in their 30s. I would advise both of them to not remain in a marriage or have kids with a man who cannot express his anger calmly, who threatens divorce whenever he is upset, who throws things, who smacks your arm and breaks your phone, who is two-faced (charming outside the home and sneaky inside).
You are in the negotiation stage right now – trying to see if you can negotiate him into changing (eg by enrolling in a program for domestic abuse).
My advice to you is to 1) set up a consultation with a trained licensed counsellor to discuss your options. 2) Set up a consultation with a lawyer to discuss your options.
Both you can probably get for free or low cost at a women’s shelter or some other kind of community program. There are people who are highly experienced with situations like yours. Trust me, you are not the only British Indian woman medical doctor who has dealt with an abusive husband.
Talk to a counsellor, without your husband. We can write comments that we think are helpful, but the reality is that you are best off talking to an independent expert who can guide you through the decision making process. It is really really important that you don’t restrict your sharing to Baggage Reclaim. It is really important that you go offline and talk to an expert who is trained to advise on situations like yours.
Maya
on 10/11/2015 at 11:19 pm
Thank you. I am seeing a GP and a therapist who are trying to help. Ultimately they know the decision has to come from me. I don’t know what to say, this is going to be a hard road whichever way I go. I am working on my confidence. That seems to be key. I’m sure a woman with confidence would have left by now.
Genki
on 08/11/2015 at 1:21 am
Hello Maya, I’m glad u are still physically ok and caused that this relationship is detrimental to your mental state.i I really don’t know what today except that I know if I was in your situation I would be thinking this is the turning point & he will change and things will get better from here on in…..but then knowing deep down inside that people are very unlikely to change. I have to say in all the years my ex husband & I were together some really big events happened & I thought finally he will see the light & he simply went back to his own ways. I’ve left him now & I often wish I had the guts to do it earlier. He lied, cheated, blamed me for everything, smashed my phone, smashed his phones(s), hit me with a thump on the back once, and pulled my hair – I have to admit that in a fit of rage once I pulled his hair in a club when I thought he was flirting with someone – I did not like myself when I was with him. He was not the type of person I want robe with. He said he has changed but I don’t believe a word of it. Maya I hope u can make the right decision. I seem like u have so much going for u – clever and kind u don’t need him,
Freedom Tastes of Reality
on 08/11/2015 at 6:23 am
Maya, read the book Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft. The author worked as a therapist in a program for abusive men for many years and, as he says in the book, it is extremely difficult to get an abusive man to change, even after extensive therapy. Abusive men are often extremely skilled manipulators and can even manipulate the professionals. Couples counseling rarely works in such cases. I won’t tell you what to do, but you have been with this man for years and from what you have said, the only change has been his behaviors getting worse. You’re obviously smart. As a medical doctor, you should be more than capable of making it financially on your own. If it’s kids you want, you don’t have to be married to have a child anymore. Obviously, a two-parent home would be ideal, but being a single mother is hardly the ticket to social ostracism that it would have been 50 years ago. You have options!
happy b
on 08/11/2015 at 10:15 am
I see how walls can be isolating, and then the kind of person who can break through them is often a pro at doing this, but is misread as someone who ‘finally gets you’.
Maya
on 08/11/2015 at 12:13 pm
Dear Diane, Genki and Freedom Tastes of Reality, thanks so much. I have read the Lundy Bancroft book, that’s what worried me as I recognised the patterns. He lacks empathy, selfish, blames me for his reactions. My self esteem was never great to begin with but now (regardless of how work is going) my confidence is at a low. We have done so much together in our short marriage including buy and renovate our house, he seems to get worse when under pressure though doesn’t have insight into that. He is very much about male and female roles. The night I left when he got physical was the straw that broke the camels back. It was the emotional stuff has hurt and damaged the most. Deep down, I feel I should go but the part that loves him and invested so much in the marriage says – give him a chance now he is waking up (or so he says). Divorce is s big deal in my culture though people close to me are supportive and nobody would think any less of me if I walked away now. If this was a boyfriend, it would be over. Marriage and home together make it harder. Maybe excuses. I’m worried about my work suffering. I was in a surgical field, now a GP. Love my job but always said, if I could be a doctor or a mother, I’d choose family in a heartbeat. I never wanted to have a baby alone. He knows how much I wanted that. Now I fear, being that very statistic, he gets rage when I’m pregnant. He promised me and in front of both our parents he works seek therapy, lifelong if needed to stay on the right path, yet 4 weeks have passed and he hasn’t. Yet he expects us to get back under the same roof. I have made it clear, actions will show me if anything will be different and he hasn’t seen a professional so how can I feel that? I also asked him to read a book called stop hurting the woman you love’, and that was a week ago. Today, I’m talking to him for the first time in a week. If he says, yes I’ve started counselling and reading the book, I’ll get hopeful again. If he hasn’t, I know I’ll still be confused and think, give him longer. Then I’m conscious, I’m 34 in January. Maybe cut my losses. Round in circles.
Diane: he says and I believe he really wants to be a gentle man, the good side of him is wonderful and he is great with my niece. I don’t know if he has capacity to change for me. Almost too much bad blood. I would be heartbroken if I hear he has met someone and remarried in a couple of years and having a baby and I am left alone.
Genki – did your ex husband ever go for therapy? Mine admitted he has a problem the night he came crying to my parents house and now says he is not rushing and thinks having someone to talk to will help deal ‘with the stresses of our relationship’ – again like I’m so awful to be married to, not taking responsibility for his own dark side and he overreacts and has been violent. He hates me using the word, denial. Feel if he gets a tough therapist to challenge him. He will see the error of his ways. Long shot I know.
Freedom – I know it’s all less likely. My nature is to hope. That’s all I have.
Please pray if any of you do for light and clarity.
You all sound like such strong and brave women. I wish I was.
Thanks again
Veracity
on 08/11/2015 at 5:43 pm
Maya, You have what it takes to make this decision and protect yourself and your future children if that’s what you want to do! You do! And it will be okay. Trust yourself.
You see him as he is. “He lacks empathy, selfish, blames me for his reactions.”
It is very challenging to change even when one is working their butt off – like us here on BR! The desire to change has to be an internal one (and consistent) to be effective.
The desire has to come from him. If you are the reason he stops abusing you, you will be the reason he starts again.
You have invested time in this relationship and have given him lots of time to demonstrate his commitment to change. He’s shown you that he is not willing, and you are still doing all the work.
He has given you words…meaningless. If he was truly committed to changing, he would be out there looking for a therapist, going to therapy, reading books – demonstrating his commitment to change and to you. He hasn’t done this because he is not interested in changing, really. But he can’t tell you that or you wouldn’t stay.
I understand that desire to make it work despite the evidence that it is a losing battle. That desire to win, to get it right. The cost is so high. You are paying a high price to be in this relationship. You are also gambling your future on a man who is selfish, lacks empathy and physically and emotionally abuses you.
I was 30 with a small child when I left my abusive ex husband. I thought he would grow up once we got married. Then I thought he’d change when we had a child. He just got worse. As I recall this now (it’s been years since I’ve thought about it) he got much worse while I was pregnant. He was jealous of the baby.
When I told him I was leaving, he said he would go to therapy. When I said okay, then he wouldn’t go. It was BS. Then he tried to *buy* me with offering to have another child, a bigger house. He was trying to find a way to have me stay AND allow him to stay the same. He wasn’t emotionally invested. That was a long time ago, he hasn’t changed for the better.
I understand that hope that they will change. That hope that they will love us enough to be kind and decent. I also understand that sometimes what we need to face that it is hopeless, that’s who they are, and it’s not our fault.
“I would be heartbroken if I hear he has met someone and remarried in a couple of years and having a baby and I am left alone.” Maya, from your description it seems as though you are already heartbroken and alone.
I’m sorry you are in this situation, Maya. Have you considered getting a counselor for you? Someone who is experienced with working with women who are being abused.
You are being victimized, but you have choices and options. I pray that you will see them and choose to protect and save yourself. You are brave, strong and more than capable!
Maya
on 10/11/2015 at 1:45 pm
Thank you so much for your comments.
CuedIn
on 08/11/2015 at 5:56 pm
Maya,
Trust me when I say that you CANNOT EVER have positive change with a man who probably has a personality disorder (i.e sociopath, narcissist). They are scary, abusive individuals who have no conscience or empathy. The sad fact is that they are master manipulators and will stop at nothing to protect themselves from changing their nasty ways. Therapy is a waste of your time with him because he’ll manipulate that situation and make you feel even worse.
Go NO CONTACT, hire a crack attorney, get a divorce and never speak to him again. You’ll be better off for it and save your sanity. Heal yourself and continue to create your own happiness.
Trust me; I’ve had plenty of experience with this kind of personality disorder. It’s a “no win” situation for you and he will never change.
Take care of yourself…you can heal and enjoy your life doing things that make you happy.
Maya
on 10/11/2015 at 1:48 pm
I have been suspecting for some time he has narcissistic traits. It’s hard to be objective as his wife but I don’t think he has full blown NPD though doesn’t meant this is any less unbearable. He’s got a nasty, dark side but a good side and one that ‘wants to be better’. You make it sound so easy. I feel almost paralysed by my own indecision.
Genki
on 08/11/2015 at 3:30 pm
Hi Maya, I can see you are rationally thinking this through & I wish you all the best.
My ex husband would not go to therapy when we were together I tried a number of times to convince him to go. He also had moods, it was like I was always walking on egg shells. I think it was 3 phones he smashed. And one computer screen – which I of course diligently had repaired. I look back & wonder what took me so long to see the light. I’m 39 now & we have 1 daughter, he is a reasonable father but terrible husband material. So finally after we separate he organised counselling but I only went once with him & I had such fits of rage at his lying & cheating I could not handle it & quit. I’m trying to get him to dos mediation course to settle the divorce but he won’t cooperate. He is still difficult and selfish. I’m amazed how often his selfish side shines thru even when he is trying to tell me he has changed. Maya – you will feel 20 tonnes lighter without that man in your life he is stifling your spirit- all the best to you.
Diane
on 08/11/2015 at 4:30 pm
Maya, abusers are masters at the ‘honeymoon’ period where they think they have lost you – that’s why women stay with them. They are masters at crying and saying they are going to change – hey, maybe they want to. Doesn’t mean they can. I stayed in a relationship with a guy for 5 years who would cry and beg and plead and send me long emails promising to change. He didn’t.
The fact that he is doing all of this talking & yet STILL hasn’t seen a counselor speaks volumes.
Maya, ‘hope’ can get you killed. I don’t know how long you’ve been with this guy, but he’s had long enough to show you who he really is – there’s no secret Prince inside of him waiting to come out. Let go of the first few months when he was Mr. Perfect – it’s an illusion. Those first few months will be your downfall.
If you’re determined to ‘make it work’ then let him prove himself to you over a long period of time through his ACTIONS. Saying he’s going to do this and that isn’t the same as actually doing it.
You are young, bright, have an excellent career – you could be 40 and married to a great guy, who is a partner, who treats you and your kids well – or you could be 40 and married with kids to this guy.
You say pressure makes him act out – there is no pressure like being a parent.
Move on with your life & let him SHOW you he’s changed if that’s what he says he’s going to do. Right now he hasn’t shown anything.
Forget your culture or your parents’ expectations. They don’t have to live with the guy.
Ce
on 08/11/2015 at 4:34 pm
I can’t get past the “what does it say about me that I trusted someone so untrustworthy!” I don’t trust my own judgement and used to think I was smart and perceptive. Not anymore.
Oona
on 09/11/2015 at 2:26 pm
No one is smart until they know. We all have things we don’t know. Once we really know something it is rare we forget it and do it again. Ie once you have burned yourself – twice shy – until then it can be difficult to truly know esp if we are surrounded by things and experiences we don’t trust.
Freedom Tastes of Reality
on 08/11/2015 at 5:18 pm
Maya,
Don’t buy it. Even if he goes to counseling, the therapy itself will likely be just another manipulation. Plenty of abusive men go to therapy when they fear the loss of the relationship, i.e. loss of control. Often the therapy stops as soon as they’re confident they can reel you back in. Of course, he’s promising to change, promising therapy, promising you the moon and stars now that you’ve left and are waking up to his behaviors. He knows it’s what you want to hear.
Don’t be heartbroken if he moves on with someone new. Feel sorry for the new girl/woman. She will likely get the same treatment you are getting now.
Also, ask yourself – do you really your future children growing up in this environment? Remember, if you have a son, you will be raising somebody’s husband and somebody’s father. If you have a daughter, your husband will her primary example for how she should expect a man to treat her. Do you really want this for the primary masculine influence in your future children’s lives? Ask yourself these hard questions now to avoid living with regret later on.
Freedom Tastes of Reality
on 09/11/2015 at 4:53 am
I would just like to add that lots of abusers aren’t actually mentally ill, though that’s a common misconception. (Some are, obviously, just not all of them.) I cannot recommend the Lundy Bancroft book highly enough. It’s not a perfect book, but it’s invaluable for the light that it shines on this very difficult subject.
Maya
on 10/11/2015 at 1:50 pm
Yes, agree. It’s almost once you’ve read it; hard to go back, but yet I still am as he is disagreeing that he is ‘that bad’ and not sure what his benchmark is. Of course, I don’t think I’m on the most severe end of the spectrum nor do I want to end up there.
Genki
on 09/11/2015 at 6:17 am
Hi again Maya- I would add that like Veracity my ex husband created a bad tension with the baby it seemed like he was jealous! And the amount of criticism he gave in my parenting approach – it made for a very uncomfortable house!! I never knew when he was going to whinge & complain.
I would add to Freedoms advice – u don’t want your child/ren to see this man treating you badly or disrespectfully – what will that teach them, only to perpetrate bad characteristics. That was one of the main reasons I left my husband he was deeply sexist and had different standards to apply to women and men in the worst possible way. it was always the women’s fault – men were always pressured / antagonised by women in his opinion. He was so wrong the best thing I ever did was leave him. I know you will feel this strength & knowledge too, when u accept the fact he has been disrespectful and may not change.
Maya
on 10/11/2015 at 4:36 pm
Hi Genki, thanks so much. Perhaps if I focus on that, I may leave him. Given that having a family has stupidly been my driving force with staying with him, I should focus on what that would be like if he stays this way. It’s hard as he has now said he has started counselling but doesn’t feel like I should ‘force him’ to read a book. I said I can’t nor do I want to but he keeps getting stuck on things like definitions of emotional and physical abuse, we end up going round in circles. I feel like I’m in some half way house but to the rest of world, it’s clear – he won’t change; leave. Yet I cling to hope. If he decided to leave me; that would be easier for me. Thanks for your words and I sincerely congratulate you for being brave and getting out of your situation
Gabriela
on 14/11/2015 at 8:33 pm
Hi,
I just discovered your blog and I am glad this was THE first article I read. This could not have resonated with me more, especially at this time. Thank you for writing this!
You’re awesome!
Gabriela
Genki
on 15/11/2015 at 1:52 am
Hi Maya, I left only cos I was finally pushed to the brink I won’t go into details but just say that my husband revealed his true self in front of all my family & then there was no going back & he moved out the same day. Something similar may happen to you which does help make the decision easier and it’s also easier when you do split cos of the stuff they have done throughout the years you know you are never going back!! I would suggest never covering for them, make him feel the impact of his actions and question the unacceptable things he does, eg: what has put you I such a bad mood etc? See if he responds. Anyway the truth is my life improved in stress levels, financially and myself confidence when we split and I wish I had the guts to do it earlier. I’m wishing u the best!!
Jay
on 16/12/2015 at 5:55 am
I can really relate to this. I had just left a bad situation with someone and found it hard to trust another guy or anyone for that matter. Even then I was still optimistic that I would find someone better. Then I met a “charming” guy who is now my ex. He did everything he could to get me to trust him. He knew what I had been through and promised me he’d never do the same. He said all the right things, fought for me and so on only to pull the rug out from under me and leave me broken hearted…again. Once he had my trust he didn’t know what to do next, he couldn’t live up to my expectations. It was a game to him I’m assuming. This happens a lot I think because once the honeymoon phase is over and it’s starts getting serious, guys feel the pressure of the next phase of the relationship. It’s so sad because it leaves us wondering “why did he say this or that, or keep reassuring me if he was just going to leave”? It leaves you questioning what was real or fake, it’s cruel. I feel it’s partly my fault for putting my trust in him after such a short time. Lesson learned.
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It’s hard not to feel a little guilty or foolish for allowing wolves to be my wall buster. I might not be stupid or foolish but somewhere deep inside it’s hard not to think so (I let it happen right?). I’m 42 yo and have finally (yes, finally) learned my lesson but, unfortunately the last EUM sucked the last of what love and trust I had to give in a relationship as an ego stoke and I let him. Nat is right when she says all we can do is adjust ourselves according to the person and situation. But this is a lot easier said than done. It takes a tremendous amount of self-awareness, boundary setting, therapy and a general sense that people are not inherently self serving and manipulative. It also takes the ability to let go of “failures and mistakes” before moving on and, if most of us were able to do this we wouldn’t need to read this blog! Anyway, I get the point of the article and it’s a great reminder. I just wish that I understood much more about people and relationships when I was younger, but if you come from a chaotic, abusive (on all fronts) household like I did then I guess it’s amazing I understand anything at all.
Hi
Try not to feel guilty or foolish as you put it, as Nat has said elsewhere (paraphrasing..) there’s nothing wrong with wanting to be loved and loving, it’s just sometimes the person you love is not the right choice.
Something that helped me when trying to make sense of a very painful experience that lasted years was thinking that the qualities he had were what I needed to develop in myself – the positive ones – and my attraction and need for him came from that.
If you look at it this way, you won’t be tough on yourself.
All of us reading this blog have loved the ‘wrong men/women’ – people who have abused or mistreated us. None of this is our fault, or foolish..
Thanks Nat for this exceptional entry, really – it sums up my situation perfectly as I try to navigate a new relationship post the abusive one.
Thankyou 😉
Wow, Natalie, I’m almost a little scared at how profound and timely this post is! I kept wanting to look behind me or up at the sky or something as I was reading. One big booming awesome message from you and the Universe at just the right time. Thank you for this! What an incredibly insightful description of the crazy and crazy-making dance that can go on between one walled and fairly distrusting gal and one super unaware emotionally unavailable guy. Thank you for spelling it out so perfectly and offering such great inspiration for self-care and healing!
Thanks for such an insightful post. This reflects events in my life. I had a trust barrier up and it made more susceptible to men who would be on the charm offensive. But the men I ended up with didn’t like me at all, they just liked the challenge and saw it like a game. Now I know I won’t be easily fooled by overblown gestures again.
By being open and showing more that I can be vulnerable, I realise that people feel more at ease around me. Rather than seeing men as a stumbling block I’m starting to see their human side, as creatures with vulnerabilities themselves who want to be loved as much as I do. I also find that when I’m more assertive with my vulnerabilities, it’s easier to spot the bad eggs. I’ve seen quickly that being more open, I get a better gauge on which men actually care about true emotional bonding. This is not me putting it all out on a plate in front of them, it’s just allowing myself to be human and not putting on so much of the tough girl facade.
A good way is to think is “If I was a loving and generous man, what kind of woman would I want to encounter?”…
I had never in my life made myself so emotionally vulnerable to a man as I did a few months back. I did it partly because I was hoping he would say he felt the same way about me. Not only did he not reciprocate he also gaslighted me & I was crushed. I distanced myself immediately for the sake of self-preservation. I avoided any place I knew he’d be. I simply disappeared from his life & after a week, he came looking for me. It has been many months since then & he still makes it so that we “coincidentally” run into each other at least once a week. It is very painful for me as seeing him tears open the wound again. I don’t know what his agenda is. If he does not like me then I wish he’d just let me be.
Wild One, your story really resonates with me. I too had to deal with an ex that kept showing up in public places where I was, although in my case I don’t think it was deliberate – I think he had disposed of me so thoroughly in his thoughts and feelings that I don’t think he ever thought of me again after dumping me – so I don’t think it occurred to him that I might be there too. This didn’t change the fact that it was still immensely painful for me to see him and like you it tore the wounds open again for a long time afterwards.
Some advice… first, you can’t understand him or his agenda, and you can’t control what he does or where he goes. Who knows why he does what he does. Who cares. It doesn’t matter! Realizing you don’t have this control is actually a kind of freedom. Therefore, don’t put ANY energy there.
Second, realize that you are not helpless in controlling your own feelings – you have more power here than you think. Figure out ways for YOU to deal with the inevitability that yeah, you will run into him from time to time. How can you minimize those encounters? How can you minimize the emotional toll it takes? How can you strengthen yourself when that happens?
Here’s an example: Not only did I run into the ex socially (this is a very small town), I also had to work with him for a long time after he discarded me and once had to sit in a three-day training workshop that he led. I also had to attend a work retreat that he AND HIS NEW GIRLFRIEND were leading! The whole thing was like a big cosmic joke at my expense and beyond ironic… and I remember sitting there wondering what kind of karmic retribution life was extracting from me. The situation was so absurd that I got a kind of wry amusement out of it. Everyone was fawning over him as a great teacher, a great leader and he so enjoyed being the center of attention. But you know what? I sat there having to look at him and listen to his self-satisfied lectures and I thought to myself, over and over, “Remember what he said, what he did, and who he REALLY is.” I knew what a creep he really was, even if our colleagues didn’t. And that little mantra strengthened me and kept the painful feelings at bay. I urge you to find something like that which will work for you.
Thank you Wiser. I have minimized my contact with him as much as possible by avoiding being in certain places at the times I know he’ll be there. My problem is he seeks me out as he knows what time I normally show up. I have changed the days I show up ( as I can’t change the time) many times over to frustrate him & make him give up but he persists all week long until he sees me & then he lets a week go by & does it again. After he told me he didn’t reciprocate, I respectfully gave him his space & left him alone. It makes me angry that he has not been respectful of my space. He could easily avoid me if he wanted to but he doesn’t. It’s incredibly hurtful.
Wild One
Give him your back; turn away. He wants to be seen as the “good guy”; he isn’t.
Wiser, what a painful experience it must have been for you. You are a strong individual with dignity & character. It takes a lot of grit to stand your ground in such a trying situation with your head held high. Well done.
A good way is to think is “If I was a loving and generous man, what kind of woman would I want to encounter?”…
I love this. Lightbulb moment.
Wiser
Makes me sad that you had to go through that. When that’s happened to me, and Narcboy is currently and ironically on a pedestal, at least enough colleagues know what a joke he is so at least I have several people to roll my eyes at and smirk with. Sadly, in a small town, the guy often able to move on and the woman generally remains alone. You run into them often because there’s only one grocery, one good restaurant, one very small post office. One phenomenon that has worked for me has to do with my being highly visible in the community for doing good things for the people whereas he and she pretty much ignore the community, and its needs, as much as possible. When I show up to a function, half the room greets me, show up at a restaurant, my favorite wine is put in front of me immediately, and Narcboy et al. ignored. Despite the huge difference in personal values, folk in a small place do judge you by what they see you actually DOING and BEING. Drives Narcs crazy.
Definitely relate to this, having a year ago finally got out of a relationship with someone who went to great lengths to win my trust and as soon as he had it did so many hurtful and untrustworthy things it was hard to believe he was the same person. I did call him out but cue more charm from him, a gradual retrusting from me then a reversion back to Mr Shady. A draining, confusing rollercoaster and if I’d been less walled off when I’d first met him I’d have been less enthralled by his charm offensives and reoffensives, more able to see his ‘real’ self when it emerged and more able just to let go and move on. Boundaries rather than walls – great advice. Can see now self respect and self trust leading to healthy boundaries would have saved me a lot of pain.
Excellent post! I’m fairly certain I’ve been walled most of my adult life which explains a lot. Boundaries, not walls!!! Makes so much sense. Prob one of your best posts to date.
Totally agree, amazing post that couldn’t have come at a better time, I love nat’s wise words and those of the amazing people on this site.
True no nonsense advice and support.
Boundaries, not walls. So true!
Natalie,
Thank you so much for this posting. I just had been saying to my girlfriend and therapist, how is it possible to keep attracting charming men? They turn off the love and dating when they want…it’s like “AHA, gotcha!” Now I don’t have to try anymore. I was so lonely in my relationship. He had went from available to unavailable like a flick of the switch. I became a love addict almost scratching to try to figure out what happened. The more I talked about that we were not connecting the more he pulled away.
–Your quote,
“It’s a boost to their ego that they’re lowering a person’s defences. For some, there’s no doubt that it’s a game for them and for others, it’s lack of self-awareness – they are not honest with themselves about their motivations and so they don’t know why they’re doing what they’re doing or feeling what they’re feeling.”
My very recent latest boyfriend, turned on the charm hard…I kept telling him, it’s not normal to buy a woman a lot of gifts (jewelry mainly) in the beginning. It should last the continuum of the relationship. The first 6 months were pretty great, but I saw a few things, (red flag for me) him ignoring his mother instead of working on the problem. I would bring them up and he would take serious note of it. He had some baggage but never asked me to carry it. Then he had a traumatic situation with his two kids, (in May) regarding his ex (kids’ mother) in which she is not allowed to see the kids.
So a few things happened here. I have an avoidant (as seen with non discussions with his mother and bottles his feelings). Then as he has always been custodial parent he is now sole parent. These kids are trauma kids. It’s sad and I knew he would be shifting time. I asked for a break. He said he could handle it. Can you guess what happened?
Four months later, I told him we were taking a 30 day break. I am still in it. I realized he became love avoidant, my love addict kicked in, I felt abandoned. I took the break because the kids became mildly abusive and he let it happen more than once. I took the time for me to figure out the real “chess game” and give those kids their dad. I am in a program for my co-dependence and another Anonymous group as well. I thought at first I was a major problem to this, but realizing I picked someone who was a “charmer” and an “avoidant.” I realize I deserve someone that wants me in their life and makes choices to have me in it as well.
Thanks for the topic. I welcome feedback.
I love this:
We can learn to be boundaried instead of walled so that we’re open to good experiences and able to opt out of what doesn’t feel in alignment with us. When we allow us to recover from those painful experiences of trust, we know our own trust and so we will no longer be receptive to somebody who is glib and charming in order to give us a feeling of being reassured without giving us consistent action of actually being trustworthy.
This has so much resonance for me – especially the bit about walls being a challenge for some people which is exactly what you’re trying to avoid.
I’ve also found that trying to hold back from an involvement simply makes me over-think things and then do something impetuous as a way of overcoming the stress of thinking you’re about to be hurt. So it’s hard but important to be a bit more measured.
Loved this post.
Last weekend, after months of NC, I filled in as a performer in a show that happened to have my ex-EUM in it. When I got to the rehearsal before the show, he did this whole thing about cheering for me that I was going to be in the show and I thought, “What are you doing?”
The director calls me up to the stage and she’s praising me about my willingness to jump in, etc. and I hear him say “HUZZAH!” at the mention of my name. I just tried to ignore him because it felt so awkward to me that he was doing this. He talked to me about a thing when we were going to be on stage at the same time but I quickly agreed that we would stay to our own sides of the stage. Later, he made an aside comment to me during practice that I imagine was intended to be “helpful” but it came off as his mansplaining to me as if I were clueless. I probably gave him a withering look. He left me alone the rest of the night.
I realized that, as “nice” was he was trying to be, it was annoying. It felt disingenuous and weird for him to act chummy. I felt like he was using this as a way to test the waters. Sometimes, I have doubts like, “Was that unprofessional? Should I have been more “open” and done this whole display of working together and let bygones be bygones?” But I can’t pretend the past isn’t the past. What would I have preferred? Something like, “Listen, I know this is weird because we used to perform together when we were involved and I want you to know that I respect whatever feels OK for you. If you’d like to talk about the pre-show, I’m open; otherwise, if you’d like to stick to our own sides of the stage and be separate, I will follow that.” I would have thanked him. I would have made the same decision to perform separately but he would have utterly transformed how I saw him if he had said that. But, of course, if he were a person who would say that kind of thing and think about others in that way… we’d still be together. lol
Instead, he acted like there was no history between us and I hated him for it. It felt dishonest and disingenuous and I wanted him to cut the crap.
I noticed he has to be talking to someone all the time. He seems very uncomfortable just sitting still and being where he is. And if you’re not gushing with approval, he runs away. I wanted to see how it felt to stand near him and he can’t sustain it – he’s needing the approval/reassurance. I’m not here for that but this is what he used to use me for all the time. And I don’t need it from him. I don’t need the validation or the cheering. Just stop. It doesn’t feel sincere – it just feels like a way for him to see if I will give it back to him so he doesn’t have to face the consequences of why we’re not friends.
It’s like he doesn’t fully grasp that things have changed. I am no longer going to be your ego stroke – and giving *me* validation isn’t going to get it in return from me. I don’t want it. I don’t need it. I’ve given you quite enough already. You took a lot from me and I’m not in that role anymore. Get it?
It’s the whole consequences thing. I’m not willing to pretend. I’m not going to be a jerk but I don’t have to talk to you. I don’t have to laugh at your jokes or watch your performances or do anything I don’t want to do. We’re not friends. There are consequences for using me and crossing my boundaries and I have a choice about who I deal with or not.
Thanks to all of you and this blog, I know this now and I refused to play along with him for the sake of his comfort or outward appearances.
Congrats, Michelle for protecting yourself and treating yourself as the valuable person that you are!!
Well, thank you, Veracity! It feels good to be in this place.the doubts pass quickly – I know it’s just me adjusting to this new way of being. With time, it won’t even faze me. Thanks for the support.
I think that’s the thing I resent more than anything about my time with the EUM. This guy would literally beg & plead to be with me. He would go to whatever lengths necessary. He didn’t buy me jewelry or flowers, but there would be tears – he’d get down on his knees and clasp his hands together. He’d call/text/email me to death. Every time I told him I didn’t think it was working between us and we seemed to want different thing (putting up a wall) he would SMASH it down. Of course, then he’d be right back to his same shenaningans within a week or even a few hours. At the time I knew nothing about guys who just see this kind of thing as a challenge – I took it all at face value that if he was going to this much trouble, he must want to be with me in the way I wanted. I don’t think I will ever forgive him for that. I’ve had to forgive myself for being human and capitulating to his tears and pleas – it’s hard not to when you care about someone and you didn’t have any relationship role models growing up – and all you had was pop culture, which tells you that guys pursue you fiercely and that actually means something. Let me tell you for anyone still in this game – it DOESN’T.
I totally agree with your comments Diane. Since I was a teenager I always knew about men and the thrill of the chase and was hurt by a few boys back then changing the minute you let them know you had feelings for them and I learnt some hard lessons back then. I was married for twenty years and when my marriage ended, amicably, I got involved with my first EUM.
He charmed me and pursued me when I was not particularly interested in the beginning and it took over a year for me to agree to see him, the first few months were great although looking back there were red flags. I was not expecting to get into a relationship so soon but the minute I let my barriers down he changed, just like that, his communication became shoddy and I constantly hoped he would return to the person he was in the beginning.
It ended over two years ago now and I have managed to maintain NC for over a year now, but I have not forgotten the lessons that it taught me, I always thought I had a wall around me, I feel better thinking of them as barriers now also.
I am a much happier calmer person now, have not dated since and have not had any desire too. I am not frightened of it anymore though, I shall take what I have learnt with me for the rest of my days.
BR has helped me over the last couple of years more than anything or anyone could, hence I still come back regularly and read the posts to keep me on the straight and narrow.
xxx
Sally,
Good for you! It does get better!! My believe is once you get yourself back to your baseline of happiness you will be fine. My belief is don’t shy away from love because of shady AC behavior. I met a couple more duds after AC but it got better because I didn’t take the rejection personal. Just dusted myself off and lived my life.
You’re posts are always pertinent and on point. I’ve been doing a lot of “self analysing” over the last year and a lot of your posts have helped me summarize my needs and create myslef some much needed boundaries. As a little background storry, I’m soon to be 30 years old and the longest “serious” relationship I have had was 4 years (between 20 and 24 years old, he was my common law partner). I have dated a few men since but it didn’t work out with any of them. One relationship lasted almost 2 years but it was so casual I can’t even call it a “relationship” (he was much older and we both knew it could never work). Than a year ago I thought I had found someone with whom it was going to be real. We were together 6 months, I was getting ready to meet his folks, introduce him to mine. I thought after a year together we might start thinking about moving in together. But he was one of those guys who was only trying to “get me”. He was the type of guy who came from a whealthy business familly and he never in his life had to deal with hardship (I on the other hand was raised by a single mom and had to learn how to take care of myself and that the world isn’t alway fair from a very young age). You know the type of kid who when he managed to get 50 000$ in debt (about 25 000 GBP) at 19 years old didn’t worry about it because daddy was going to bail him out. But he was a charmer, he said everything right, he treated me like no man had treated me before (he wanted to spend all his time with me, he wanted me to sleep over even on week nights, he cooked for me, he took me out on dates and paid every time (although I always offered to pay my part and sometimes invited him myself). He was sweet, funny, caring. He was a boyfriend. But alas, it turns out he didn’t think of me as his girlfriend. He never intended to introduce me to his family. I was a rebound to him. You see he had been with his ex less than 2 years, he left her 2 months before he met me. He left her for what seemed to me to be good reasons: She wanted kids, he didn’t, she had a big dog at home, he didn’t want to live with a dog, he had a healthy sex drive……she wasn’t into sex at all (he said it felt like he was forcing her whenever she “agreed” to it and that made him feel uncomfortable). Anyway, he left her for that (and possibly other things) and we took things slow and it all seemed like it was working out for us but then last March he went on vacation to his parent’s house in Florida (we’re in Canada) for 2 weeks and I was waiting for him to come back (he couldn’t really invite me since it was his parents house and I hadn’t met them yet, I was fine with that). But when he came back, something was different. He told me he needed to be alone for some time, that he wasn’t seeing “us” as a serious relationship and that he needed more. Turns out his ex (who’s dad also has a house in Florida, albeit in another city) flew over druing the same dates and gave him a call to meet him (they had broken up over 8 months prior….she had a new boyfriend….she knew he had someone). He drove all the way to her city, they spent the night in a hotel room and she promised him the moon (she would get rid of her dog, she would agree to not have kids and she would open her legs to him whenever he felt like it). And that “messed up” with his head and that’s why he ended things with him. And I let him seduce me, I let him make me think that this was real. There was red flags but I didn’t have healthy boudaries. It’s been 6 months since, I’m much better now (sometimes I’m mad but mostly at myself). I feel pitty for this girl. I realised I didn’t want to be “that” pitifull girl. And I know I must not think that all men are wolves (although the last few ones that have been in my life were not good partners). I had started seeing a guy in July. He was not the right partner either and I laid out my boundaries to him and it didn’t work for him so I made the conscious decision to end it. It felt amazing to do this for myself and not let another ass clown take over my life and make me his puppet. I know what I want as a relationship now and I’m excited to find a good person to share my life with and to have him accept my boundaries while I accept his. Thank you for helping me improve my attitude towards….well towards life in general.
I ended a friendship with a man because he constantly brought up the issue of my “walls” and then would say disrespectful things accusing me of being manipulative and passive aggressive because of my “walls”. Of course, it took me a while to realize I was being manipulated and that in fact the person with the walls and vulnerability issues was him not me. I called him on this and his disrespect and he apologized and we have not spoken since. I am good with that. The thing is, the middle gound is the place to be. I am not going to make myself vulnerable to anybody who makes me the least bit uneasy and I do think friends, co-workers, lover do in fact have to demonstrate some amount of trustworthiness as we do to them, before we can all be vulnerable. It is not even that hard. Somebody who does what they say they are going to do, that person is likely trustworthy on some level. Somebody who flakes out, makes excuses, or tells long drawn out stories about why they flaked out, not trustworthy. People who get angry when you won’t spill their guts five seconds after meeting them, not trustworthy. Anybody who demands instant intimacy, not trustworthy. I think women are often made to feel guilty if they don’t like somebody, because women are supposed to be nicer and caring and we get pushed into being vulnerable and shamed if we hesitate. Then we ignore our gut instinct because it is not “nice” and then shit gets real and often painful.
I was taught NOT to follow my gut instinct and always people please, by my immediate family as a child, in order for them to maintain power and control over me I understand now. I then followed on to repeat this behaviour in my adult life believing that this was the way to gain true love – totally unaware – as I had been falsely taught. All the men and friends I had around me, had the power and control over me – leaving me more and more isolated and therefore more keen to please and ignore my gut.
Some men are taught this also as children I believe but it is interesting that many many women I talk to share similar experiences of what I experienced as an adult and I wonder if this goes back to their childhood conditioning?
Having to take a back seat to other children or adults around them?
Thanks for your comments, Paula. You’re right – if we’re not “nice,” then we’re a “bitch.” And that pressure takes its toll on our well-being when we don’t feel like our needs matter. This site teaches us we can tend to our needs instead of worrying so much about other people and filling impossible needs. But gosh, it is so tempting to fulfill them and feel like (hooray!) we finally met this impossible standard. The problem isn’t our inadequacies – it’s that we need to opt out, as NML puts it. She’s right – and the challenge is: replace it with something else of our own making, that isn’t based on someone else’s approval. But, man it feels so easy to just go back to what you know. When you’ve been running the same damned race over and over, you become conditioned to the starter pistol. It’s hard to take off the shoes and walk away from the track – it’s a reflex and it seemed to hold so much promise; if only I could “win”! But the track is the damned problem. I’m done running! I’m doing other shit now and soon, I will forget about this stupid track. (Apologies to anyone who loves to run and for whom it is head-clearing lol)
Michelle this is a really good analogy thank you – yep it is a really hard instinct to over turn but awareness and forgiveness of ourselves really really helps ie a much more open field to wander through at our leisure and joy.
Yes when we know fully our own trust – ie knowing or aware that we are not feeling happy or safe and listening to our inner self – whether or not it is declared real and acting on it – is truly a gift worth having.
The description of putting up walls vs boundaries, I found quite hard – at the minute I am debating with myself which are necessary boundaries and which can perhaps be over the top – or is this another way to stop me putting boundaries in? – so maybe there is further work to do on trusting my instinct. At the minute I stick and act with instinct rigidly – if I feel uncomfortable in any way I get out of there and watch but this does leave me with a very discerning palatte and very few make it to the list of comfortable – ie two people in the last three years.
The reality is I am terrified of confrontation and when setting boundaries in the past have come up against considerable nasty confrontation – in order to control me I presume and sadly it works. I will do anything to avoid confrontation – even though my instinct tells me months before to walk away.
I am still the starving child who thinks a cracker is a four course meal – even though I have managed to find two people who cook a nice three course meal reliably.
Equally when I come up against problems in the relationships – as we all do – I have actually attempted to open up and speak with actually three not two people and they have all been responsive – I would have to walk away if they weren’t my trust level in others and my ability to handle it is so low. These experiences are rare not the norm in my life still and this makes me question myself because I’m not engaging with many people.
I’m a very friendly person but I’ve always been a little leery of men. I’m particularly suspicious of men who seem to have an interest in me & are overly confident or cocky. My error was in assuming that someone who seemed shy, sweet, & socially awkward would stay that way once I demonstrated that I liked him. I was utterly dumbfounded how this person did a complete 180 & turned into a cocky jerk & seemed to have devalued me in the blink of an eye. I was very hurt when I told him I had feelings for him & he replied by apologizing for misleading me (even though he had been aggressively pursuing me for many months) & then telling me that he was in a relationship. I was deeply wounded & shut him out completely & immediately from my life. I did it so quickly & suddenly, he didn’t know what hit him. Unfortunately, I still can’t seem to shake him off of my tail. He continues to seek me out & he’s been unbelievably persistent. I honestly don’t know what he wants as he never says anything to me but he makes it so that I’m aware that he’s present by placing himself a few feet away from me when he could easily avoid doing so. It’s as if he’s trying to keep himself relevant in my life. Sometimes I get angry & I want to confront him but if I do, I risk being gaslighted again & looking like a fool. Sometimes I get anxiety attacks knowing I’m going to run into him & that I have to try to act normal. Sometimes I wish I’d never been so friendly to begin with & then maybe I wouldn’t be in this mess.
Some more thoughts on this… (I responded above as well). I would encourage you to keep your distance physically when you find yourself in the same room as your ex. If he’s on the right side of the room, you stay on the left. If he moves in your direction, you move away. If he tries to stand near you, calmly go somewhere else. If you have to walk past each other and it’s too awkward to just ignore him, an unsmiling nod of the head (don’t slow down, don’t stop) is enough acknowledgement.
I know this sounds like it requires an exhausting amount of hyper-vigilance to keep up your awareness of where he is at every moment. But I’ve discovered from experience there is power in this too. Controlling yourself is a kind of empowerment. Don’t make eye contact. Don’t join conversations where he is. Since he doesn’t talk to you, at least you are spared making any kind of lame, idle chit-chat. Absolutely DO NOT confront him. Whatever his game is, you are definitely not playing. He doesn’t exist as far as you are concerned. He is not your problem. Your feelings – and control of your feelings – are your problem. Focus on that instead.
Good words, Wiser. Staying clear on what’s ours and what is theirs, doing right by our values without getting sucked into their agenda. The bottom line is, they know they’re shit and they liked it when we denied that/built them up. They hang around to see if we’re still handing out ego strokes. If we “misinterpret” it as interest in us, they don’t care – more ego boost for them. They want us to respond positively not bc they love/care for us but so they can feel like they’re not an asshole. This is why NC is so hard for them – and for us – but that’s also why it’s so necessary. They don’t want to FEEL like an asshole – we want them to not *BE* an asshole.
Than you for the advice Wiser. Up until now I have done just as you mentioned above. I place myself on the opposite side of the room but he follows me. I move away & again he follows me. He is not my ex. We were still getting to know each other when I told him I liked him. We have never been intimate. I am very guarded of my personal space so there was very little physical contact. No kissing. No hugging. No flirty touching. Just conversation.
If this is always in public OUT him from his secret little game. He is betting on you saying nothing and not defending yourself from him which in his head = she loves me, I am lovable.
For example loudly exclaiming to the room ‘ARE YOU FOLLOWING ME AGAIN? – LEAVE ME ALONE.’ Or
‘I AM SURE YOU ARE AMAZING BUT i AM NOT INTERESTED – LEAVE ME ALONE.’
If others are also aware they can support you by taking note let alone anything else – if they aren’t aware, you remain on your own in a room of others and he is playing/banking on this/manipulating you.
This is one of the traits of a highly manipulative person – if he has done this many times, it is clear he doesn’t see any boundary at best and may continue to do so, upping the anti. Most individuals on being ignored many times would take the hint that you are not interested, not get off on it and see it as reason for following you further on future occasions.
This is not acceptable behaviour to put up with. If it has happened repeatedly it is not going to simply go away – you have to take action that you are comfortable with but equally protect yourself at the same time.
If you make any statement to the public, make sure you only say it the once and do not allow yourself to be drawn into any other discussion with him.
If you really really have to say something – keep ON msg over and over…ie ‘I’m still not interested’ really loud so everyone is aware what is going on. This puts a social pressure on him and supports you at the same time.
Then after that you need not pay any attention to him at all – You have made your boundary clear, you have made your feelings plain – and in public.
Next options involve basically non contact – away from any places where he may also be which includes Wisers points about not staying where he is or looking at him etc… and/or advice from the police on harassment – which is what he is actually doing to you.
Considering how minimal your relationship was, what he’s doing sounds downright creepy and disordered. I don’t know if it qualifies as stalking, but it sure seems close. This is a different situation than you learning how to ignore somebody who *happens* to be around now and then, and might require a different tactic to get him to stop. If he’s deliberately following you to this extent, you might need to send him a stern warning to stop it or you will go to the police. He’ll deny it of course, but don’t reply. Then keep track of every time you run into him and how he behaves. You might need it as evidence.
Only you know how serious this is. How does it feel in your gut? Is it merely annoying or do you feel some fear when he is around? Annoying people can be ignored. More menacing people need to be stopped.
Wiser, I was thinking the same thing about it being very close to stalking except I have no proof. Members can come & go as they please so he uses this to his advantage. Like I said, I am required to be there at a certain time although my days are flexible. I have just been ignoring his behavior hoping it would stop although, I’m uncertain if it will. I did tell a male friend to get his input on it & he thinks it’s all in my head & that I’m projecting what isn’t there. I don’t think I am, though. He is very subtle about it when there are many people around but when there’s only a few he watches me very intensely. Some times when he places himself close to me & I can’t move away I just turn my back to him so that I can’t see him from my peripheral vision but even then I can feel him watching me. I don’t think I’m paranoid because I’ve never had this happen to me before or experienced anything like this. I find it more annoying than frightening so I’ve simply tried to ignore it.
This isn’t paranoia – this is your instinct telling you you may be in danger – ignore it at your peril. His movements as you describe, do not suggest innocent behaviour – and are alarming to me as someone who has been through stalking. They ALWAYS do it in a way that they could claim innocence – ususally because they are experienced in this behaviour and know that it will help them look innocent and you look like you are paranoid/crazy – but one warning needs to be clearly put in place – then if he breaks it you know what you are dealing with and what help you should be accessing – if you don’t you are basically setting up a home with no walls and carrying on as normal as if nothing is happening.
This is similar to what happened to me with a guy who I was attracted to in the workplace (I wasn’t there as a paid worker); he started following me around there. As soon as I started going in there he seemed really stunned by me to the point of sitting there with his mouth dropped open in a trance if I even smiled at him, walking past me and looking up to the ceiling with his face screwed up like a 2 year old about to cry; yet he couldn’t really get any words out even though he’s usually sociable/confident with everyone else.
To cut a long story short, because I could see he couldn’t cope around me I started avoiding him as I knew we could never date due to his over-emotional reactions to me. Instead of him backing off he then started popping up wherever I was in the building and literally following me around – turning around in the corridor and staring and then walking off etc. Even though I was still attracted to him it felt quite boundary-busting as a decent guy would surely have just got the message that I didn’t want to take things any further (i.e. by me starting to avoid). It was like the more I backed off, the more suffocating/manipulative he got in terms of trying all sorts of ways of getting my attention – following, showing off etc. I hadn’t discovered BR at this point (I found it whilst searching the net re. this incident!); however my gut instincts were continuing to scream at me to stay away (I’m someone who always follows my instincts – I never doubt them) and so in the end I decided to not keep going into that work place anymore and left. After some time I discovered he’d had a girlfriend nearly the whole time he was engaging in this bizarre behaviour towards me – he was doing all this towards me before he met her and then simply carried on once he got together with her. By far the strangest way a guy has ever behaved towards me – no real conversation but just following.
@ Claire Yes!! I’m attracted to him as he’s very handsome but his behavior creeps me out so I’ve been trying to avoid him.
Yep – there was sky high chemistry/attraction between this guy and me and perhaps that, combined with his immaturity, was what was freaking him out so much resulting in the creepiness. This guy *really* shouldn’t be acting that way in the workplace anyway as he was front line public sector – in a role that people automatically tend to trust. I suppose that’s partly why I figured he’d be a decent sort – I know better now than to make assumptions based on a job!
May be the secret for having healthy boundaries is time? Walls work immediately, and this makes them unflexible. Boundaries need time to be put in place, they need us to get to know people, even if a little bit.
The problem is that people in general nowadays have no time, especially in big cities. Many out there don’t care about getting to know people, whether as a (potential) friend or a (Potential) partner.
Furthermore, as women we are very quickly given a label and this adds up to the walls vs. boundaries problem.
e.g. : I went on a non-date with a guy: we were supposed to have dinner at his place with other (new-ish) friends, but everybody canceld, so I agreed to a quick beer, he lives close to me. Yes, this was a mistake on my part. I shouldn’t have gone, but to me it was pretty clear that I wasn’t interested, it was by no means a date, and I thought that we could just drink a beer, and see each other at the re-scheduled dinner, just like adults do. I wanted to have a conversation and get to know a new person. I wasn’t being ambiguous nor EU, I was simply taking my time. Impossible.
I didn’t realise that, in spite of having seen me 2-3 times and never had in-depth conversations, he had formed an idea about me and he interpreted our communication according to that idea.
“I am sweet.” When I told a friend that he said this, she laughed and said “Well, you are much more than that!”.
Yes, but some men work with labels, and of course it’s wishful thinking on their part.”She’s not that bright, or may be she is intelligent but bookish, not “street”; a bit boring; she wants me to marry her like, tomorrow; she’s compliant”.
I am simply not aggressive, especially now that I don’t put up walls like I used to do. If you’d talk to me for 2 minutes you would realise that I am far from this “pretty Mary Sue” image he (and not only he) apparently has.
But, simply because I am a woman, I have to deal with men like him projecting their ideas on me.
Example of things he said:
“Can you flirt, like, at all?!”
“I can’t believe you and X are best friends! I mean, no offense to her, but she’s…well…” He meant a slut, though he didn’t say it. Of course: an attractive woman is either some kind of angelic fairy, or a hypersexual witch…I answered “Well, it takes time to know somebody. You know nothing about her and nothing about me.”
His answer: “Really?”
…
This episode really made it clear to me that, no matter how emotionally healthy we are, whether we will be able to use boundaries or be forced to put up walls even at very early stages is not entirely up to us. Still, in this phase I’d rather risk being slightly mellow (because underneath there’s steel 🙂 ) than risk closing up once again.
I’ve noticed that the better I get at setting and maintaining healthy boundaries, the more I trust myself to handle people and situations and the easier it gets to set the boundaries. The cycle just gets stronger/easier. I have far less anxiety now because I trust that whatever happens, I can handle it. It may not turn out exactly like I would like, but the world isn’t going to end and I will not be destroyed.
In general, I’m far more relaxed and easy going and people are responding positively. I’m finding I care a lot less about what people think or what their reaction is going to be. I’m focusing internally rather than externally.
My walls are being replaced by boundaries and it feels fantastic!
Wow, this actually made me really sad. After being single and discerning for 3 years, I met someone who seemed like “the one.” He ticked all my boxes, did everything right – communicated consistently, asked me to be exclusive before sex, traveled with me, made me a priority, etc. 11 months in, we had our first argument (because a woman called his phone early in the morning and I asked who it was). We were at a point that I expected to be a milestone (meeting his kids) but he said the argument startled him, that I don’t trust him, he has unresolved issues, etc – and 7 weeks later we are still not communicating regular. He is at a crossroads, unsure what he wants – unsure about anything really. What struck me about this article was that on our first date, he mentioned how “gated” I was and that he couldn’t wait to get to the “golden gate.” Falling for him was easy and he still says he loves me, but he did mention “pressure” and “expectations” that he’s unsure if he’s ready for. A lot of relationship gurus say it’s normal for men to withdraw in this way when they are scared, and to give them space. And I try to empathize because I know he had issues from being severely abused as a child. I’m ready to tell him this isn’t working for me but at the same time I don’t want to give him that satisfaction. This situation with him has motivated me to start therapy (he was obviously right that I have trust issues and insecurities) because I realize that I’ve mistrusted every man I’ve dated for no good reason other than I loved them. I want a thriving partnership. I’m still hopeful about him, but can’t deal with the limbo much longer. Any advice?
Meka, well, actually he didn’t tick every box, the one that says “I know that I want to be with you and I’m in it for the long haul.” That’s a pretty important box, paramount in fact. The fact that he can’t tick this one doesn’t mean he’s a bad guy, but it is a red flag about whether or not he can be the strong, consistent partner you want. There are a lot of good people out there who won’t make good partners until they do the painful work necessary to grow up and mature. If the guy doesn’t know if he loves you and wants to be with you, then his feeling aren’t that strong. I don’t believe any amount of “space” with change this. What should you do? Let him go, wave goodbye and wish him well. Not a bad guy but not for you. Don’t settle for lukewarm feelings!
This whole pattern sounds sadly familiar. Guy wants to get past the “gate,” i.e. enjoys the chase, and gives a lot of attention in the beginning. Then he gets restless and at the first argument wants to step back… says he wants “space” but most likely realizes that he really doesn’t want it to get too serious and is now wondering if someone even better might be out there for him. He’s honest about the fact that he doesn’t want “pressure” and “expectations” which are code words for the commitments that people undertake in deep, healthy relationships. He doesn’t want that! He doesn’t want what you want! Listen to him!!
Meka,
The same words were told to me in the first 3 months of the relationship. Of course back then it was a different me. I can’t recognize now who I was back then. Crazy scary to see it was me. He told me he doesn’t want pressure and expectations (yet he wants a long-term relationship. I think he meant he wanted a real like relationship but with no work put towards it. I don’t know, it doesn’t matter anymore). Later many times when I asked (should have walked away in the 2nd month of the relationship) him if he thinks we could have a potential he would tell me he is still thinking and although he loves me and cares about me, he is not sure yet. He loved me one month then was not sure the next one. Forth and back.Listen to him. They usually tell you the answer themselves. His answer is that he doesn’t want to settle down. That’s exactly what it is. He is not ready for serious relationship, for commitment. Don’t wait for him. He already told you everything you need to know.
I hate how much emotional and mental space we women give to men and their shitty issues. We agonize over their every move. We blame ourselves and search ourselves and try to gain insight and grow, and love, and care and understand. And in my experience, they do none of this in return. I’m emotionally unavailable and bitter now, in my soul. I don’t want to be, I know it’s awful and unfair and sweeping. And yet that’s how I feel. Thinking of dating makes me feel nothing but a fear of misrepresentation and abandonment down the road. They make my heart sick, and I believe any romantic interaction with them leads to pain and confusion. It’s so unhealthy. I’ve been reading this site for years and years, and I have been somewhat successful applying her knowledge to my life, in other words I’ve gotten out a lot earlier than I would have before, and I have been able to clearly size up manipulation and red flags. But I have also continued to have some really crappy experiences, too, and my being open to the lottery that is dating is now closed again. NML is very spot on. All of this is true. And yet I feel I cannot trust myself. Even if I’m able to call bs and get out, even if I move on to date someone else, it all ends the same way. I’m not perfectly enlightened and I have not resolved my abandonment issues, but I deserve real love. Why hasn’t it happened in all of my 36 years? I don’t know. This is where you turn a critical eye on yourself. Again. Try and figure out how you can grow and where you need work with you. But this time, I’m not doing it in the hopes for romance. I’m doing it so that I can love my life even if it’s just me. I have to seriously consider that my match may not happen for years – or ever. I may never be able to love someone and have them love me too. I may never have kids. What will my life be like if I embrace that possibility? Will I endure a double misery or enjoy what my life has to offer and live it? This is my decision. As for men and whether I’ll ever land a good one, I just can’t even give any more mental space to it right now. It is driving me nuts, and it’s seriously depressing.
Astrid, I’m 57 and have spent the past year grieving the fact that I have never had one truly happy relationship with a man. Since I had my first crush at age 10, men = misery. Why this is the case for me, I don’t know. But I have to admit that it’s true. I didn’t want to admit this to myself because I knew it would bring about a long period of grieving (and damn, it sure has!) as well as all kinds of associated feelings of shame, failure, loss, inadequacy etc., BUT it has also been surprisingly liberating as well. On top of the fact that the whole notion of romantic love is a rather new invention in human history (and therefore NOT essential to the human person or required for happiness – except that we’ve all drunk the kool-aid poured down our throats by sappy movies, heart-tugging music, and other trappings of our cultural conditioning) this is a particularly hard time in history to find a caring, mature mate. Such a huge percentage of the population is self-obsessed, narcissistic, adolescent and entitled that it’s a wonder anyone can find a partner who is willing to commit themselves to the well-being of another person for the long haul. So the bottom line is… it sucks for so many single women like us.
What to do? Well in my case I feel like I’ve worked through the grief, and run the gauntlet of loneliness and fear of being alone and finally have come out the other side. I went through my dark night of deep depression about it and have now come to a better understanding of what it is that I really want. I want to be happy. I want to be happy more than I want to be loved. And since I no longer automatically equate being in a romantic relationship as a requirement for happiness, life suddenly has so much more possibility! What does an unpartnered life look like? I have wonderful examples everywhere I look! Terrific women who are either divorced or widowed and having the time of their life, alone. Making the most of their freedom and enjoying themselves immensely.
It sounds like you are already doing the right thing – focusing on your own life and making any necessary changes for your own growth and emotional health. Not to impress some guy. Or convince some guy that you are worth loving. Now, I don’t want to be cynical about love – I want to remain hopeful. If Mr. Wonderful shows up, fine. If he doesn’t, fine. But wow, to be free of all this pining and longing crap and feeling bereft because I don’t have “love” feels fantastic! I’ve been truly enjoying myself the past few months, feeling happier than I have in a long time. You are certainly too young to “give up” and I don’t think of myself as giving up either. But I encourage you to work through the bitterness and disappointment and not let it taint your natural ability to be happy – which you have whether you land a guy or not.
Thank you so much Wiser, I really appreciate your words. Happiness is the most important thing, and I’ve got to find it within me and only me. I’m done spending time feeling broken and unlovable. And I will make serious effort to let go of my bitterness. I have had the same experiences, from the time I had my first crush, nothing ever worked out well. The “quality” of man may have improved on paper, but that’s abut it. I’m through dwelling on feeling forgettable, leave-able, and all of the other self esteem killing garbage from these jerks.
Astrid
Wiser has given good advice. I am two years younger than she but was married to an incredibly good man. The break up was due to my needing to leave the area, not a loss of love for one another. I know what a great relationship looks like but yep, it has been a dating manurefest since then. Its hard when you know what a good man SHOULD be, what a good rship SHOULD feel like and now all that is available is a mere scrap of what I had. Wiser is right, societally, we are in a bad place now for any sort of meaningful rship, even friendships. We pursue quick gratification, worship silly celebrities and ignore neighbors, family, community. Men have no real father figures so many in your age group have no clue how to even be men. I find that often it is they that are not in a place to be in a relationship, are not in touch with themselves and it is nothing to do with us. We should still put ourselves “out there”, but with the understanding that we will have to reject 99.9% of them as unsuitable, not take it personally, and in the meantime continue work on ourselves.
Wiser,
You wrote exactly what I wrote to Astrid just using different words and sentences:) I agree with your every sentence and thought! I feel the same way. I feel free, liberated. I feel I am finally catching up doing the things I love during my free time off work and like there is never enough time. I am never bored with myself and enjoy every minute of my day. Do you know that feeling? It’s when we were single (and we still are but now we have ourselves!) we wasted time thinking of the past or hoping to get a man or being sad about not having a man. Now I feel I am finally living. Men don’t occupy my mental space anymore (used to it was my main subject of conversation and thoughts)! I am 38 and so happy I started living finally. I feel like I started a new life and look forward to days and weeks and months of living to my life’s fullest. And like you, I am too not cynical or negative about relationships. If someone trustworthy comes along, I am willing to try. If not, be it. Feels wonderful, doesn’t it? I am happy to know someone else feels this way. I have been reading your posts and really like your attitude. You are inspiring and wise.
Thank you Sofia. The one consolation for the misery and humiliation I went through with the guy who brought me to this site is that maybe, just maybe, I might have gained enough hard-won wisdom to be able to write something that will help someone else.
Astrid, I completely understand what you are feeling. I came here on BR in February-March 2014 and have been posting and mostly reading recently since then. I have experienced a lot of positive changes in this almost a 2-year journey with Nat and BR readers. The changes have been all for the better. I am much more self-aware, self-compassionate and kind to myself. I am self-forgiving, not needing validation from other people, and not holding others responsible for my well-being and being there for me. I am easier on myself and others. I don’t expect anything from anyone. I have finally abandoned the idea that I need to have a relationship in order to live a content, whole life. I have been struggling for years and even after the breakup (January 2014) thinking that I need someone to complete me. It’s a working progress because I do feel sometimes I would like a partner. Someone to share my day story with, my concerns, my joy, thoughts, ideas, inspirations, tears and laughter and have him share all the same with me. Sometimes it still hurts me especially when I see couples everywhere I go, and I wish I had someone to share my experiences with. But if before I would get seriously sad and depressed about not being able to find and settle with a partner, now I brush it off the moment the sadness comes to me. It is becoming easier. I smile at it actually. I smile to myself and within myself. Nat posted somewhere just today about learning how to care for your young child in you, the one who was abandoned and not taken care of, and taking care of the present you too. I think I have finally learnt how to do it! I hug and hold mentally that lonely child from my past, who is needing her parents’ attention and affection, and tell her that I love her and she is not alone. I mean, I don’t do this mental talk all the time. It’s just the feelings that rush inside me whenever I get that sense of loneliness and something is missing. I know it’s coming from my childhood. I care for my wounded feelings and fill the void instantly with self-compassion. So I don’t feel alone anymore. And I don’t need someone to make my life whole. I know you are making a decision right now whether you decide to stay single and accept you might never meet anyone. I have made the decision to not worry about a relationship anymore. If it comes I am open to trying. I don’t care anymore. I really don’t. With that decision you will have peace and time and energy to care for you, build your life, focus on what you want to accomplish. If something meant to happen, it will. I believe in it. Meanwhile keep on living Your life and keep learning and thriving. Relationships are not answers or completion to anything. Only we ourselves (and God for those who believe) can make our lives wholesome and complete. No one else.
As everyone has said what a timely post & the comments have been so helpful!! Thanks Nat and everyone.
I’ve been separated for 2 years & been in BR same time – always so helpful when I start to struggle or need guidance. I haven’t met anyone yet & now I realise I’m probably putting up walls. I recently chatted to a guy from work about my arranging the divorce & other things & it was so helpful. But what I need to do here is stay authentic& not use my separated situation as a way to firm
A connection it should be based on our interest, attraction & other values we share. I think I actually almost went down the track of playing on the fact that I don’t want to rush into anything to lure people in but I would be attracting the wrong type of person for the wrong reason. Anyway the guy was really kind considerate thoughtful & helpful in the conversation, but I’m my own saviour & this post has helped me so much to see that.
I am a medical doctor myself, 33, British Indian with no children. I used to read this website often in 2011 when I was in a sub par relationship and thought I had learnt so much. I met a man in 2012 who I thought was the one. A few months into the relationship I saw his temper and felt responsible as I did something that I thought I could understand why he would be upset. I took responsibility although his anger and rage seemed disproportionate. Every few months he would lose his temper. Apart from the first time, I couldn’t really understand why he would behave so badly. I felt guilty as I was going through a stressful time with my career and thought I was bringing down the mood of the relationship. I was exhausted a lot of the time. We had good times in between. Of course, there always are cycles with this. I found myself investing more and more emotionally and truly felt we had love between us and would eventually get better. He proposed in October 2013 and I really thought it would mean he would treat me well if he was my husband. I thought he would want a happy marriage and want to be partners. We married in April 2015. The first year was tough. Frequent rages and every few months, he would say he wants a divorce. Then settle without him acknowledging his bad behaviour. I left my emotionally abusive marriage which is only 1.5 years old after he became physically abusive aswell last month during a fit of rage. There were red flags during courtship which I hoped would not evolve any further and get better after marriage. Emotional abuse has occurred on and off during the marriage, he would engage in silent treatment for weeks for small things I had said that upset him and he wouldn’t communicate even after I apologised. Once, he shoved me and has thrown a bottle near me in the past and bruised me when drunk and we were not even arguing and actually going through a better patch (so I thought) but for some reason I didn’t consider that physical abuse as he didn’t hit me or mark me. I know now that it was physical abuse but denied the magnitude to myself as I was desperate to work on our young marriage. I was trying to juggle postgrad diploma and full time work in a new job. The incident last month was black and white due to smacking my arms and pushing me very hard and smashing up my phone to the point I was so scared and couldn’t go home to him again and his blaming me again for pushing his buttons as I was trying to calm him down before during and after the abuse.
He used to do all the classic signs with anything I raised about his behaviour or pain he caused me (minimising, denial, blaming, gas lighting) and for the first time since we have been together he is remorseful as I have left. He has apologised occasionally and over the summer he admitted to overreacting sometimes. That took a lot of effort to get him to say that. Despite screaming every two months that he wants a divorce during rage he now says this is the last thing he wants and he will now get help and see a counsellor. He has admitted he has blamed me too much (all problems were ultimately mine – to the point that he insisted I saw a therapist which I did over the summer when I begged for marriage counselling and he said to drop it). However still even now he is invested in my playing a role in the poor state of the marriage and saying we need to see someone together eventually, perhaps once he sees a skilled counsellor he will start realising the role of his destructive behaviours. He is a different person in public, charming as anything and so handsome, I am always being told by others who haven’t seen the other side of him, that I am so lucky to have him.
Of course, there have been good periods in between and not every day is a nightmare but the years of Blame, intermittent rages and no accountability or admittance have left me feeling so empty and a shadow of my former self. I have a great supportive family who say they will support me no matter what but I feel lost. I am exhausted, confused and lack self esteem. I don’t know how to navigate this. Don’t feel ready to start again with him or to leave. I love him but I also feel so let down, angry and sad all at once. I question is it love or trauma bonding? The thought of leaving him feels me with sadness about how this happened after investing so much. He says he wants to be a good husband to me now but I don’t know if he has the capacity as his thinking seems so distorted and his behaviour has escalated over the years. Scared to stay and go through a honeymoon period and have children and this nightmare start again later I life. I feel he needs to enrol in a domestic abuse perpetrator program before I can consider reconciling but given that he is only now admitting there is a problem and agreeing to seeing a one to one counsellor, I don’t feel he would agree to this. Very confused about the path to take. Feel that I have lost my ability to make a good choice.
I read my posts in 2011 and felt really disappointed in myself – same thing, I didn’t have confidence to leave a bad relationship due to initial good period. This is so much worse as I am married, aware of my age and losing chance of kids and that I am the messed up one if I end up always in such bad relationships. I feel awful. Any advice?
Maya, you are 33!! That’s young!! Get out, NOW! You can easily still have kids – you’ve got years. Get away from this guy. Screaming rages, silent treatment for weeks over small matters, hitting you, smashing your phone? And you think this will somehow get better after kids? It will only get worse – and you will have even less recourse to leave. I grew up with domestic violence – trust me, kids do not want to grow up this way. It’s HORRIBLE. If you can’t do it for yourself, at least do it for your future children. Sorry, but he’s not going to change. Did marriage change him? He got worse. Not because of you but because of HIM. Kids will make it even worse – and pregnant women are hugely at risk with violent men.
From Wikipedia: Among many other studies, [5][6][7] a study done by Isabelle Horon, DrPH, of the Maryland Department of Health and Mental Hygiene that looked at pregnancy-associated deaths from 1993 to 1998 found that homicide was the leading cause of death in women who were pregnant. Homicides accounted for 20% of deaths, compared to 6% of deaths among non-pregnant women of reproductive age. Heart disease was found to be the second leading cause of death for pregnant women accounting for 19% of deaths during pregnancy.[8]
Save yourself!!
Maya I am sorry that you are experiencing this nightmare and sad to read your post. Congratulations for getting it all out and down again, in writing, I know it must be really really painful right now. Do not beat yourself up – feeling lost about this sort of extreme situation is perfectly normal – it is not something anyone should have a road map to – because it shouldn’t happen simply – but we know it does and its not as rare as we believed sadly. Unfortunately there is not a magic moment where you necessarily have cracked it, do one thing to sort yourself out and move on – it is a learning that gives you an – ongoing process – with which to accept and wrestle with for ever more or pretend to yourself you have done it now and don’t need to do it right now and use it to go out and make the same cycle over again but worse. I have done this and like you learned the hard way, the really hard way but I still learned and benefited from it for real, in the end.
And before you say it – no you haven’t been really stupid – how can you know, what you did not actually know, before this happened? It is easy in hindsight, it is easy standing from the sidelines to judge, it is easy when that is all you have ever done to criticise yourself. It is not easy to learn to love yourself for real.
Here is a brief road map that has helped me to find myself in reality for the first time in my life at over 40 years old. I feel joy and peace and moments of anxiety/mess ups but nothing on the same scale since and all the things I thought I desperately needed, to feel fulfilled – it turns out isn’t necessarily true in reality and things I ignored in their importance have now brought me such growth, joy and harmony – that while I will never advocate violence or emotional abuse of any kind – I now see coming through it and growing from it, has made myself and my life better beyond any of my original expectations (that I already thought were very high).
No 1) In life your health and safety are paramount – without physical welfare you have no life – protect this first – put in place resolutions that mean you TRUST solidly you will never have to experience this from this person or others again. Decide for yourself what will make you feel this way and keep acting on it until you feel truly safe in your own home and skin. It is a commitment you have to keep every day.
No 2 Focus on yourself – ask yourself – can you really trust, even with professional outside intervention in a perfect world, that there is no possibility that this can’t happen again or worse?
If the answer is no to this question – you know what you have to do. If you can’t commit to yourself ie trust yourself – you cannot commit to others, full stop. If you don’t act, you are delaying the inevitable – which is more pain for yourself – and him also – not that he should be your concern but right now I suspect he will be, in your head?
No 3 pamper yourself – show yourself you are worth it – you did nothing that ever deserves this kind of behaviour from anyone – also do not take responsibility for it again – imagine what advise you would tell a friend of yours in a similar position and write it down – now follow it.
My pampering can involve – clean crisp sheets, hot water bottle, a candle, long hot baths, hot chocolates, chocolates, nice healthy food, nice autumn walks, going somewhere natural like river or canal or mountains or sea, doing a craft course, reading a good book next to a fire, going for a weekend break to a nice hotel or a meal on my own somewhere very good during a less busy moment… find the things that work for you and do as many as you can every day while you get through this – as a priority – one thing at least until it becomes a daily habit.
No 4 remember that you have ALOT going for you – I haven’t met you so there will be much more but you write you have – an education, job, young age (my aunt had her baby at 47 years and we forget that pre-pill pre-world war 2 years, giving birth after 35 years was actually more common than we have been led to believe in and now we have such things as IVF and other birthing knowledge/options to help also) but even if these options weren’t on your side – you can still have a greater and more fulfilling life – more fulfilling! than you have ever experienced before this calamity errupted in your life.
No 5 continue focusing on yourself – why do you not value yourself enough to have a FULLY healthy relationship at ALL times??? Look for real at those around you – saying and actually supporting you, I have found are actually two different things and not necessarily follow each other. Why are you not actually supported for real to be in a healthy relationship? And what do you need to actively put in place to change this?
No 6 Really look at the things that you are truly comfortable with, the behaviour you are not actually comfortable with and putting up with, in the hope things will get better /or you will be rewarded for your love – but don’t get actually get the full reward in reality. These boundary issues will help you learn who you truly are ( I warn you some will be good, some not so good but at least you can do something about them now and know what happens if you don’t)
No 7 write your values list of what you are really looking for in a loving life partner – everything – what values do you expect your dream relationship to have? Now does your current partner have every single one of those values? The ones he has actually demonstrated NOT the ones he says he has.
If yes then he is for you – if not – your values don’t match and he is not for you and never will be – staying with him in the hope he will change or you can cure him is not only hopeless but damaging for his development.
Somewhere on his values list, he has. that it is acceptable to treat you badly, to hurt you – verbally, emotionally and physically! – if those things appear on your true values list then you will be perfectly happy in the relationship you have and have a real reason to stay – if not, what are you procrastinating for? A house? a mortgage? a family you will never have and if you do will be further Hell with him?
Maya just at which point are you going to actually trust your own feelings and put yourself first? You cannot achieve any of the above until you really actually do listen and trust yourself. Well not happily.
Dear Oona, thanks so much for taking the time out to post with such detailed advice. It’s so kind and anyone who has posted, I am grateful. I have been trying to do some of the steps you said. My husband and I had a much longed for holiday booked in Asia, when the violence happened 2 weeks before. This was cancelled. I had saved to pay for the tickets as he wasn’t making much at work and planned the itinerary after researching for months as he was busy trying to get a lease signed for his business. I thought, this trip will be a reward for him and me. I had been working so hard too. Let’s start building some good memories I thought. I was trying to be positive. Anyhow, I had 2 weeks off and took myself away and it was ok to be alone. I read books, went for walks, had massages, dinners for one. Good to have time alone. He has agreed we should be apart for now. I feel lonely and empty when I come back home after looking after patients all day. I don’t know Your final questions are what I ask myself every day – what am I procrastinating for? I don’t know what this is all about or how we got here (well I do, but wish it wasn’t So). It’s the stupid, like I hope for a miracle and don’t decide due to a sense of failure in myself. He asked me ‘don’t you think you can sometimes be emotionally abusive yourself?’. It made me think, maybe he is right? I have been angry with him when he has treated me like crap. I’ve told him and raised my voice at times. Once he shoved me and I shoved him back and cried, how does it feel? You’re a bully! Though for months I have been calmer and worked on self soothing when he is nasty and walking away which i was inplementing from talking to a therapist. I wish my feelings had died for him that night and my strength grew. I’m stuck. Your words and advice have really helped. Wish you well. Thanks again
Maya,
Sometimes our mind plays games with us and comes up with excuses to avoid taking hard and difficult decisions.
“My culture does not allow this behavior” “I have invested in the house” “He promises to change” ” He cries” “He acts out under pressure”
All of these are excuses, I was with someone who cried like he really meant, but he never had any intention to change, he was just buying time and fooling me. Ultimately even his crocodile tears dried up.
You have one life, live with dignity.
I am so sorry for what you are going through.
But darling, you are so young. I’m 33 too. I have two sisters who are also in their 30s. I would advise both of them to not remain in a marriage or have kids with a man who cannot express his anger calmly, who threatens divorce whenever he is upset, who throws things, who smacks your arm and breaks your phone, who is two-faced (charming outside the home and sneaky inside).
You are in the negotiation stage right now – trying to see if you can negotiate him into changing (eg by enrolling in a program for domestic abuse).
My advice to you is to 1) set up a consultation with a trained licensed counsellor to discuss your options. 2) Set up a consultation with a lawyer to discuss your options.
Both you can probably get for free or low cost at a women’s shelter or some other kind of community program. There are people who are highly experienced with situations like yours. Trust me, you are not the only British Indian woman medical doctor who has dealt with an abusive husband.
Talk to a counsellor, without your husband. We can write comments that we think are helpful, but the reality is that you are best off talking to an independent expert who can guide you through the decision making process. It is really really important that you don’t restrict your sharing to Baggage Reclaim. It is really important that you go offline and talk to an expert who is trained to advise on situations like yours.
Thank you. I am seeing a GP and a therapist who are trying to help. Ultimately they know the decision has to come from me. I don’t know what to say, this is going to be a hard road whichever way I go. I am working on my confidence. That seems to be key. I’m sure a woman with confidence would have left by now.
Hello Maya, I’m glad u are still physically ok and caused that this relationship is detrimental to your mental state.i I really don’t know what today except that I know if I was in your situation I would be thinking this is the turning point & he will change and things will get better from here on in…..but then knowing deep down inside that people are very unlikely to change. I have to say in all the years my ex husband & I were together some really big events happened & I thought finally he will see the light & he simply went back to his own ways. I’ve left him now & I often wish I had the guts to do it earlier. He lied, cheated, blamed me for everything, smashed my phone, smashed his phones(s), hit me with a thump on the back once, and pulled my hair – I have to admit that in a fit of rage once I pulled his hair in a club when I thought he was flirting with someone – I did not like myself when I was with him. He was not the type of person I want robe with. He said he has changed but I don’t believe a word of it. Maya I hope u can make the right decision. I seem like u have so much going for u – clever and kind u don’t need him,
Maya, read the book Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft. The author worked as a therapist in a program for abusive men for many years and, as he says in the book, it is extremely difficult to get an abusive man to change, even after extensive therapy. Abusive men are often extremely skilled manipulators and can even manipulate the professionals. Couples counseling rarely works in such cases. I won’t tell you what to do, but you have been with this man for years and from what you have said, the only change has been his behaviors getting worse. You’re obviously smart. As a medical doctor, you should be more than capable of making it financially on your own. If it’s kids you want, you don’t have to be married to have a child anymore. Obviously, a two-parent home would be ideal, but being a single mother is hardly the ticket to social ostracism that it would have been 50 years ago. You have options!
I see how walls can be isolating, and then the kind of person who can break through them is often a pro at doing this, but is misread as someone who ‘finally gets you’.
Dear Diane, Genki and Freedom Tastes of Reality, thanks so much. I have read the Lundy Bancroft book, that’s what worried me as I recognised the patterns. He lacks empathy, selfish, blames me for his reactions. My self esteem was never great to begin with but now (regardless of how work is going) my confidence is at a low. We have done so much together in our short marriage including buy and renovate our house, he seems to get worse when under pressure though doesn’t have insight into that. He is very much about male and female roles. The night I left when he got physical was the straw that broke the camels back. It was the emotional stuff has hurt and damaged the most. Deep down, I feel I should go but the part that loves him and invested so much in the marriage says – give him a chance now he is waking up (or so he says). Divorce is s big deal in my culture though people close to me are supportive and nobody would think any less of me if I walked away now. If this was a boyfriend, it would be over. Marriage and home together make it harder. Maybe excuses. I’m worried about my work suffering. I was in a surgical field, now a GP. Love my job but always said, if I could be a doctor or a mother, I’d choose family in a heartbeat. I never wanted to have a baby alone. He knows how much I wanted that. Now I fear, being that very statistic, he gets rage when I’m pregnant. He promised me and in front of both our parents he works seek therapy, lifelong if needed to stay on the right path, yet 4 weeks have passed and he hasn’t. Yet he expects us to get back under the same roof. I have made it clear, actions will show me if anything will be different and he hasn’t seen a professional so how can I feel that? I also asked him to read a book called stop hurting the woman you love’, and that was a week ago. Today, I’m talking to him for the first time in a week. If he says, yes I’ve started counselling and reading the book, I’ll get hopeful again. If he hasn’t, I know I’ll still be confused and think, give him longer. Then I’m conscious, I’m 34 in January. Maybe cut my losses. Round in circles.
Diane: he says and I believe he really wants to be a gentle man, the good side of him is wonderful and he is great with my niece. I don’t know if he has capacity to change for me. Almost too much bad blood. I would be heartbroken if I hear he has met someone and remarried in a couple of years and having a baby and I am left alone.
Genki – did your ex husband ever go for therapy? Mine admitted he has a problem the night he came crying to my parents house and now says he is not rushing and thinks having someone to talk to will help deal ‘with the stresses of our relationship’ – again like I’m so awful to be married to, not taking responsibility for his own dark side and he overreacts and has been violent. He hates me using the word, denial. Feel if he gets a tough therapist to challenge him. He will see the error of his ways. Long shot I know.
Freedom – I know it’s all less likely. My nature is to hope. That’s all I have.
Please pray if any of you do for light and clarity.
You all sound like such strong and brave women. I wish I was.
Thanks again
Maya, You have what it takes to make this decision and protect yourself and your future children if that’s what you want to do! You do! And it will be okay. Trust yourself.
You see him as he is. “He lacks empathy, selfish, blames me for his reactions.”
It is very challenging to change even when one is working their butt off – like us here on BR! The desire to change has to be an internal one (and consistent) to be effective.
The desire has to come from him. If you are the reason he stops abusing you, you will be the reason he starts again.
You have invested time in this relationship and have given him lots of time to demonstrate his commitment to change. He’s shown you that he is not willing, and you are still doing all the work.
He has given you words…meaningless. If he was truly committed to changing, he would be out there looking for a therapist, going to therapy, reading books – demonstrating his commitment to change and to you. He hasn’t done this because he is not interested in changing, really. But he can’t tell you that or you wouldn’t stay.
I understand that desire to make it work despite the evidence that it is a losing battle. That desire to win, to get it right. The cost is so high. You are paying a high price to be in this relationship. You are also gambling your future on a man who is selfish, lacks empathy and physically and emotionally abuses you.
I was 30 with a small child when I left my abusive ex husband. I thought he would grow up once we got married. Then I thought he’d change when we had a child. He just got worse. As I recall this now (it’s been years since I’ve thought about it) he got much worse while I was pregnant. He was jealous of the baby.
When I told him I was leaving, he said he would go to therapy. When I said okay, then he wouldn’t go. It was BS. Then he tried to *buy* me with offering to have another child, a bigger house. He was trying to find a way to have me stay AND allow him to stay the same. He wasn’t emotionally invested. That was a long time ago, he hasn’t changed for the better.
I understand that hope that they will change. That hope that they will love us enough to be kind and decent. I also understand that sometimes what we need to face that it is hopeless, that’s who they are, and it’s not our fault.
“I would be heartbroken if I hear he has met someone and remarried in a couple of years and having a baby and I am left alone.” Maya, from your description it seems as though you are already heartbroken and alone.
I’m sorry you are in this situation, Maya. Have you considered getting a counselor for you? Someone who is experienced with working with women who are being abused.
You are being victimized, but you have choices and options. I pray that you will see them and choose to protect and save yourself. You are brave, strong and more than capable!
Thank you so much for your comments.
Maya,
Trust me when I say that you CANNOT EVER have positive change with a man who probably has a personality disorder (i.e sociopath, narcissist). They are scary, abusive individuals who have no conscience or empathy. The sad fact is that they are master manipulators and will stop at nothing to protect themselves from changing their nasty ways. Therapy is a waste of your time with him because he’ll manipulate that situation and make you feel even worse.
Go NO CONTACT, hire a crack attorney, get a divorce and never speak to him again. You’ll be better off for it and save your sanity. Heal yourself and continue to create your own happiness.
Trust me; I’ve had plenty of experience with this kind of personality disorder. It’s a “no win” situation for you and he will never change.
Take care of yourself…you can heal and enjoy your life doing things that make you happy.
I have been suspecting for some time he has narcissistic traits. It’s hard to be objective as his wife but I don’t think he has full blown NPD though doesn’t meant this is any less unbearable. He’s got a nasty, dark side but a good side and one that ‘wants to be better’. You make it sound so easy. I feel almost paralysed by my own indecision.
Hi Maya, I can see you are rationally thinking this through & I wish you all the best.
My ex husband would not go to therapy when we were together I tried a number of times to convince him to go. He also had moods, it was like I was always walking on egg shells. I think it was 3 phones he smashed. And one computer screen – which I of course diligently had repaired. I look back & wonder what took me so long to see the light. I’m 39 now & we have 1 daughter, he is a reasonable father but terrible husband material. So finally after we separate he organised counselling but I only went once with him & I had such fits of rage at his lying & cheating I could not handle it & quit. I’m trying to get him to dos mediation course to settle the divorce but he won’t cooperate. He is still difficult and selfish. I’m amazed how often his selfish side shines thru even when he is trying to tell me he has changed. Maya – you will feel 20 tonnes lighter without that man in your life he is stifling your spirit- all the best to you.
Maya, abusers are masters at the ‘honeymoon’ period where they think they have lost you – that’s why women stay with them. They are masters at crying and saying they are going to change – hey, maybe they want to. Doesn’t mean they can. I stayed in a relationship with a guy for 5 years who would cry and beg and plead and send me long emails promising to change. He didn’t.
The fact that he is doing all of this talking & yet STILL hasn’t seen a counselor speaks volumes.
Maya, ‘hope’ can get you killed. I don’t know how long you’ve been with this guy, but he’s had long enough to show you who he really is – there’s no secret Prince inside of him waiting to come out. Let go of the first few months when he was Mr. Perfect – it’s an illusion. Those first few months will be your downfall.
If you’re determined to ‘make it work’ then let him prove himself to you over a long period of time through his ACTIONS. Saying he’s going to do this and that isn’t the same as actually doing it.
You are young, bright, have an excellent career – you could be 40 and married to a great guy, who is a partner, who treats you and your kids well – or you could be 40 and married with kids to this guy.
You say pressure makes him act out – there is no pressure like being a parent.
Move on with your life & let him SHOW you he’s changed if that’s what he says he’s going to do. Right now he hasn’t shown anything.
Forget your culture or your parents’ expectations. They don’t have to live with the guy.
I can’t get past the “what does it say about me that I trusted someone so untrustworthy!” I don’t trust my own judgement and used to think I was smart and perceptive. Not anymore.
No one is smart until they know. We all have things we don’t know. Once we really know something it is rare we forget it and do it again. Ie once you have burned yourself – twice shy – until then it can be difficult to truly know esp if we are surrounded by things and experiences we don’t trust.
Maya,
Don’t buy it. Even if he goes to counseling, the therapy itself will likely be just another manipulation. Plenty of abusive men go to therapy when they fear the loss of the relationship, i.e. loss of control. Often the therapy stops as soon as they’re confident they can reel you back in. Of course, he’s promising to change, promising therapy, promising you the moon and stars now that you’ve left and are waking up to his behaviors. He knows it’s what you want to hear.
Don’t be heartbroken if he moves on with someone new. Feel sorry for the new girl/woman. She will likely get the same treatment you are getting now.
Also, ask yourself – do you really your future children growing up in this environment? Remember, if you have a son, you will be raising somebody’s husband and somebody’s father. If you have a daughter, your husband will her primary example for how she should expect a man to treat her. Do you really want this for the primary masculine influence in your future children’s lives? Ask yourself these hard questions now to avoid living with regret later on.
I would just like to add that lots of abusers aren’t actually mentally ill, though that’s a common misconception. (Some are, obviously, just not all of them.) I cannot recommend the Lundy Bancroft book highly enough. It’s not a perfect book, but it’s invaluable for the light that it shines on this very difficult subject.
Yes, agree. It’s almost once you’ve read it; hard to go back, but yet I still am as he is disagreeing that he is ‘that bad’ and not sure what his benchmark is. Of course, I don’t think I’m on the most severe end of the spectrum nor do I want to end up there.
Hi again Maya- I would add that like Veracity my ex husband created a bad tension with the baby it seemed like he was jealous! And the amount of criticism he gave in my parenting approach – it made for a very uncomfortable house!! I never knew when he was going to whinge & complain.
I would add to Freedoms advice – u don’t want your child/ren to see this man treating you badly or disrespectfully – what will that teach them, only to perpetrate bad characteristics. That was one of the main reasons I left my husband he was deeply sexist and had different standards to apply to women and men in the worst possible way. it was always the women’s fault – men were always pressured / antagonised by women in his opinion. He was so wrong the best thing I ever did was leave him. I know you will feel this strength & knowledge too, when u accept the fact he has been disrespectful and may not change.
Hi Genki, thanks so much. Perhaps if I focus on that, I may leave him. Given that having a family has stupidly been my driving force with staying with him, I should focus on what that would be like if he stays this way. It’s hard as he has now said he has started counselling but doesn’t feel like I should ‘force him’ to read a book. I said I can’t nor do I want to but he keeps getting stuck on things like definitions of emotional and physical abuse, we end up going round in circles. I feel like I’m in some half way house but to the rest of world, it’s clear – he won’t change; leave. Yet I cling to hope. If he decided to leave me; that would be easier for me. Thanks for your words and I sincerely congratulate you for being brave and getting out of your situation
Hi,
I just discovered your blog and I am glad this was THE first article I read. This could not have resonated with me more, especially at this time. Thank you for writing this!
You’re awesome!
Gabriela
Hi Maya, I left only cos I was finally pushed to the brink I won’t go into details but just say that my husband revealed his true self in front of all my family & then there was no going back & he moved out the same day. Something similar may happen to you which does help make the decision easier and it’s also easier when you do split cos of the stuff they have done throughout the years you know you are never going back!! I would suggest never covering for them, make him feel the impact of his actions and question the unacceptable things he does, eg: what has put you I such a bad mood etc? See if he responds. Anyway the truth is my life improved in stress levels, financially and myself confidence when we split and I wish I had the guts to do it earlier. I’m wishing u the best!!
I can really relate to this. I had just left a bad situation with someone and found it hard to trust another guy or anyone for that matter. Even then I was still optimistic that I would find someone better. Then I met a “charming” guy who is now my ex. He did everything he could to get me to trust him. He knew what I had been through and promised me he’d never do the same. He said all the right things, fought for me and so on only to pull the rug out from under me and leave me broken hearted…again. Once he had my trust he didn’t know what to do next, he couldn’t live up to my expectations. It was a game to him I’m assuming. This happens a lot I think because once the honeymoon phase is over and it’s starts getting serious, guys feel the pressure of the next phase of the relationship. It’s so sad because it leaves us wondering “why did he say this or that, or keep reassuring me if he was just going to leave”? It leaves you questioning what was real or fake, it’s cruel. I feel it’s partly my fault for putting my trust in him after such a short time. Lesson learned.