A number of the emails I’ve had recently have a core theme to them – women believing that they’ve “scared away” a “Good Man”. In some instances women were pushing away decent guys because they just couldn’t believe that he or the relationship could be different to their usual dramatics and effectively carried on like they didn’t deserve a good relationship. And then…in other instances, their mind, body, and soul was trying to eradicate a No Good Man out of their lives, effectively doing them a favour although they may not have seen it at the time.
Julie, 36 was distraught when her guy said that he needed some time apart to sort out some family issues – it came at a time when she was already very insecure about whether she could hold on to him. “I’m afraid that my neediness pushed him away and he just gave up on me. I just couldn’t feel secure with him and I admit that with or without him I have low self-esteem issues. I really wanted to be with him and at first it was going so well but I got worried that he might be seeing other girls. On several occasions I asked him if he was sleeping with anyone else. He said no. But that didn’t stop me from checking up on him and I found out that his ex had been at the same place he had but he didn’t mention it. This drove me crazy but I couldn’t admit what I knew. I asked him again if he was cheating on me and he said no, but I couldn’t leave it. I’m pretty sure that I’ve scared him off – is he a good guy?”
To question whether you scared someone off may cause you to focus on the wrong things. Take Julie for instance – who knows whether he was shagging around on her but let’s be real, whether he was or wasn’t, she would have still been asking if he was sleeping with someone else, checking up on him, and basically not letting things be. If you’re scared that someone is going to abandon you or cheat on you (or both), you’ll believe you’re with someone that will do this and likely end up with someone that reflects the very things that you’re afraid of. Even if she wasn’t with someone who was cheating, she was behaving like someone who was – who wants to be asked again and again if they’re screwing someone else?
Julie painted herself into a corner because under no circumstance could she feel secure because she was unhappy with herself and convinced she couldn’t hold on to a man for any length of time – this will push away a great or not so great guy. The latter may stick around because he sees an opportunity to take advantage. The great guy will eventually tire of being painted as a not so great guy judged on the merits of her insecurities and past boyfriends.
If you’re wondering if you pushed away a ‘good guy’, the key is in understanding whether the issues in your relationship were internal or external.
Did you choose an amazing guy and then sabotage it with all of your negative internal messaging? If you did, you will not have any real external evidence to back up what you were thinking and doing. If you would behave this way regardless because this is your pattern of relationship behaviour, it’s almost like the external factors don’t matter because the only drum beat you’re listening to is the one going on inside of you. You’re not being evidence based. You don’t believe that you are capable of having the relationship, so you predict (negatively) what is likely to happen, behave accordingly and end up with a self-fulfilling prophecy that validates your fears and beliefs. When you’re afraid of something you act like it’s already happening instead of sanity checking to see if it’s reality. It then becomes what you believe – a premise that you hold to be true, even though it may not actually be true.
If you can hand on heart say that this guy had no issues, both feet in the relationship, was doing everything to bring the relationship forward and your insecure self overtook things and wouldn’t let the relationship be, then yes, I’ll be honest, it is very possible that you have scared off a ‘good man’. You need to be able to be honest with yourself and be real enough to look at both yours and his contribution instead of assuming the responsibility for the success and failure of the relationship like you have that great a power.
Or did you choose the same guy, different package that is central to your pattern and because he reflected every negative thing that you believe about yourself, love, and relationships, the relationship was doomed anyway? If this is the case, there will be real external evidence that demonstrates that you were right to have your concerns and push them away. Your boundaries will be crossed and no matter what ‘good’ points they have, they don’t eradicate what are legitimate concerns that impact on the ability to have a healthy relationship. Yes you may have pushed them away and no you might not be conscious of your reasons for doing so, but think of it as your defence system kicking into gear.
When we have low self-esteem, the reality is that we wouldn’t know a decent guy if he came along and bit us in the bum. We’ll be suspicious of him and wonder if he’s too good to be true, and tar him with the same brush as other men we’ve been involved with. I should know…I’ve done it myself.
When we have a particular mindset about ourselves and what type of experience we think we’re likely to get, we can take a good guy and like a blank canvas, paint our insecurities all over him.
If you’re in this situation, whatever and whoever they may or may not be, is not really at the heart of the issue because until you resolve your own issues, it won’t matter if he is The Most Perfect Man That Ever Did Land On the Universe, your beliefs will ensure that your relationships all go down the same road where you get to believe the worst things about yourself, love, and relationships.
Personal security is very attractive and it resonates throughout your interactions and your experiences. Lacking in personal security isn’t very attractive and it permeates your interactions and experiences.
We may tell ourselves that the ‘right man’ won’t be scared off by our insecurities but that’s really like dodging the responsibility of our own contribution and saying that he must prove himself and that we don’t have to be accountable for our own negativity. What we don’t realise is that if we’re not going to believe differently anyway their efforts to show their love is like throwing their energy into the abyss.
Ask the many people who don’t love themselves if they really do feel the love when someone says they love them? Short-term they do, but beyond that they don’t because they don’t feel it for themselves, they can’t embrace it from others.
Much like how I say that there are women that walk away from unavailable men because they recognise that it would detract from them to be with someone who cannot be present and accountable for a relationship, it is exactly the same thing for someone who finds themselves involved with someone who they like, but who they realise is dealing with problems that make them emotionally unavailable and unable to fully commit themselves to a relationship.
If you’re that woman who really does think that she has scared someone off, rather than beat yourself over the head, indulge in blame and shame and lament your loss, get to the heart of why you would scare someone off and deal with that so that the next time, you can work out if you’re in a stick or fold situation and embrace the good.
And I should add – We are each responsible for our own actions. You cannot scare a decent guy into being an assclown. If he behaves like an assclown it’s because he is one, not because you scared him into one.
Your thoughts?
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“We are each responsible for our own actions. You cannot scare a decent guy into being an assclown. If he behaves like an assclown it’s because he is one, not because you scared him into one. ”
You must be healthy yourself to attract and keep a healthy relationship.
It’s both as simple and as complicated as that.
A good guy won’t be scared off by a good girl — if ‘good’ and ‘healthy’ are synonmymous. Look in the mirror about how you are behaving, and don’t sugar coat if with “yeah but” — not for yoursefl and not for him.
Not every relationship is mean to be THE ONE. Maybe this one where you’re wondering is just a test of your boundaries and expectations right now.
Very well said Annie. We have to be accountable for our own contribution into our situations and it’s not healthy to assume victim status and decide that everything that has happened was beyond your control. Relationships serve to teach us about ourselves and if we assume that each relationship is the one, it’s like saying there are no lessons to be learned and that you have no quality control.
Interesting and true. I came very close to wrecking everything with my Good Man because, well, I was insecure and could not believe there was no hidden agenda. You know that “get burnt twice, start blowing in yogurt” feeling? That was me, in spades.
I was about to run away because I could not believe a guy could be that good- attentive, caring, protective, good listener and open. I’m at his place, in the middle of his family who treats me like gold and wouldn’t allow me to move a finger… and I’m insecure about a guy who’s main priority is to make sure I was OK and cared for, who spends most if not all of his time with me and who’s made it very clear about 15 times that this was it.
I was lucky that he is mature enough to listen to me and to understand. Most of the good guys aren’t.
With you on that one – mature enough to understand – very important! Everyone has issues – the point is to work on them.
Well it’s probably a mixture of maturity and patience Awareness. I think that everyone has their limits and the same maturity and patience we expect of our partners is what we have to expect from ourselves. You’ve realised that you’ve had to be mature about this and judge the relationship on its own merits and put in what you’re getting back – it’s paying off.
Yep almost did that very thing. Almost scared off a great guy but thankfully caught myself falling into those same old relationship that never worked patterns. Thankfully I had found this site to show me the way and cement for me the path I had already started on. I just told those negative voices to take a hike and that I deserved to be loved. I deserved to be treated well, respected – in fact I expect it or get lost buddy. Responsibility and accountability starts with me. I am responsible for my thoughts and feelings to address them or express them. So very glad I held on to it. Now when people tell me what a great couple we are and how we deserve each other – I say YES! Yes I do deserve this great guy and he deserves me too!
Movedup, know exactly what you mean. People would say how lucky I was to have met the boyf. I would say to them that we’re both blessed – we both deserve each other. Keep enjoying your relationship – embrace it xx
Hey Natalie.,
I liked this article, and I was just struck particularly by your last paragraph – “You cannot scare a decent guy into being an assclown. If he behaves like an assclown it’s because he is one, not because you scared him into one.”
I would love to read a post by you on what you currently believe a “good guy” to be. I’m not sure if you’ve covered it in your books, but I would be really interested to see what you have to say on that. Whether or not it would be appropriate for your readers, I’d love to hear it 😉
Graeme
Hi Graeme. I’m pretty sure I’ve written about this a few times so will dig out the links. To be honest I think ‘good’ is an overused word that divides people into good and bad camps. On top of that women in particular have some funny ideas about what constitutes a good guy with often superficial, insubstantial things that add no value being what they attribute the goodness to. Values is really what counts.
I think we all know , or at least will know, if we look back…if it was us and our insecurities that led them to not feel like they could mention if an ex happens to be at the same party as them….for example….or if it was THEIR sh*tty behaviour that triggered old insecurities.
Fact is many of us go in blind and trusting and get burned and then forever more wonder with each man if we should trust them or not.
But when your self esteem reaches a healthy level, you know you can be happy single or in a couple, and you simply keep your eyes open to what is happening in the relationship and how the guy behaves.
With my first eum/babydaddy…i simply wasn’t paying attention…loving and trusting blindly. Then of course after kids there is more at stake when choosing to end the relationship.
If your esteem is high and your eyes are open from day one, you’ll witness either shoddy or respectful behaviour and be able to tell him to take a walk before your mind gets foggy and your insecurities get mixed up with the truth of what’s going on
“If your esteem is high and your eyes are open from day one, you’ll witness either shoddy or respectful behaviour and be able to tell him to take a walk before your mind gets foggy and your insecurities get mixed up with the truth of what’s going on” – very well said Columbia. By adapting our love habits and recognising our own responsibilities, we can be more conscious about our involvement and actions.
Hi Nat,
I havnt posted for awhile and i hope everyone is doing well.
I think the other thing to point out is that we can sometimes keep blaming ourselves for other peoples poor behaviour because we dont trust our own instincts. Somehow every they do becomes is it me, maybe im the one, almost like the opposite of “did i scare him away”. Its like taking on all the blame and especially if that person is projecting all their stuff onto you.
Hey Trinity,your post is interesting. I was much recovered after a long term relationship disaster and after a two year break, healing and celibacy.. dated a guy I felt was saying what he meant. He wasn’t or at least he felt to scared to, just coming to realise that he was a great projectionist…he felt he let women down and that he would let me down and every small issue became magnified. He projected all his insecurities about how our relationship was going onto me, even to the extent that my last relationship was affecting this one…. I would have perhaps believed him if I hadn’t gotten so strong. I wanted him and not my old AC boyfriend. I still do believe that we would have stood a great chance of being together if we had sat down and worked this through. My point, like NML and as you say it’s not about accepting the blame…but about recognising what’s happening in the process of the relationship and sorting it out so it doesn’t happen again. I’m not about accepting AC ways and I personally believe that some really sensitive, great guys can ‘act up’ as a result of their own lack of self esteem, insecurity. Projection is often even the good guy’s the weapon of choice. Thanks , you made me think…. Lx
Hi Lesley. I know a guy like this. Jaysus, he never stops projecting and nitpicking. Victim of his own overactive imagination and great expectations. I’ll put it this way – if we can act up due to low self-esteem, so can some guys. However, even if that is the case, it is important not to project and assume you have the same outlook and the same issues – you can only be responsible for yourself.
Trinity, totally on the money. Good to hear from you! Yes, at the end of the day, I rarely hear someone question whether someone was a good guy unless they are looking for reasons to blame themselves. Trying to see the guy as some sort of saint that you scared away is like giving yourself license to not only hate on yourself, but to try and go back to the relationship as well. We need to be more realistic!
NML,
A part of me reads “Did I scare away a Good Man?” and asks – isn’t that the wrong question?
If a relationship ends, and you don’t know why – then either the person was flaky, or you have unresolved issues. You might be emotionally unavailable, stuck in past (bad) experiences, or are so deep into using dating and sex for social recreation, you don’t recognize the difference between a steady shag and a committed relationship. Or there are other problems.
If your self esteem is up to snuff, if your boundaries are sane and used when appropriate, if you are reading and heeding red flag warnings – then he must be a good guy; you wouldn’t let anyone else in the gate. If he bails out on you then you can respect his choices, and accept his words as truth (you weeded out the deceivers with your boundaries and demands for respect and honesty with your positive self esteem).
If your self esteem isn’t great, if you are spending time worrying about whether he is slipping around, or there is anything about him you don’t trust – you need to be out of the relationship; you aren’t ready to be a life partner. Don’t look for a Superman to make everything wonderful, don’t wait until you find someone worthwhile to start working on your past issues – that is your own responsibility, and he has a right to expect you would work the baggage over before you date. Just as you should expect him to be at least whole and healthy and interested in living a shared life.
So, I wonder if just asking the question “Did I scare away a Good Man?” isn’t a way to recognize that you weren’t ready to do your part in the first place.
(Remember – when I say “do your part”, I mean to act with good character, and avoid people of dubious character, dodgy background, and deceitful ways. Boundaries, self esteem, red flags, and all. Oh, and work on reconciling your backgrounds, get to know each other and share yourself for good communication always assuming realistic respect and earned trust.)
Well said Brad. The term “steady shag” resonated with me. My relationships have been fairly long term, but all failing around the two-five year mark. I really had no idea what to do with a relationship once it was past the initial glow and excitement. I’m still not sure that I do.
I’m asking myself what IS a committed relationship? What is a life partner?
In the meantime I am enjoying my celibate single life. It’s not for everyone but I am thriving on it.
Hi Grace, keep enjoying it. It would be good for you to evaluate what you think a committed relationship looks like and what you think should happen after the initial stage as you may experience disillusionment because of the expectations or subconsciously feel that once it gets to a certain level that it’s too ‘intimate’ or ‘risky’ and find a way out. Some people manage to be in lots of long-term relationships that don’t progress – look for the consistent themes. https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/so-what-is-commitment-phobia/
Hi Brad, you’re right – it is the wrong question. Of course one can ask it, but it’s just another example of putting all of the focus on him and looking for reasons to blame yourself. “Don’t look for a Superman to make everything wonderful, don’t wait until you find someone worthwhile to start working on your past issues – that is your own responsibility, and he has a right to expect you would work the baggage over before you date. Just as you should expect him to be at least whole and healthy and interested in living a shared life.” – fantastic, empowering words. We need to be more realistic about our responsibilities – it is not up to a man that you may or may not be with yet, to eradicate your insecurities and prove his worth based on the lack of worth of others.
I’m less worried about scaring someone away and more about being scared away myself! I don’t want to get married or have kids, i’m pretty bohemian and love to travel and do my own thing. I think this may be why i attract EUMs because they think that i don’t need devotion or commitment. I do, but i also need to be with a guy who doesn’t try to own me or get me to ‘settle down’ in the traditional sense. I am worrying that being free-spirited and committed are mutually exclusive for most men. Panic!
Hi Minky, the important thing is to get behind and embrace your choice and also make sure that your choices for the right reasons. There are men out there that share the same values as you – the key is for you not to undermine your own decisions by being with guys that are counterproductive to your values. You also need to recognise that in searching for free spiritedness, it comes in various guises and you don’t want to be with someone who is bohemian and shags around. Keep traveling – you may meet a guy who is on his travels that wants to travel with you too. Evaluate what you think sharing that experience means to you – you may have negative associations with people that are in stable relationships. Commitment isn’t about being shackled down.
Thanks so much for that Nat. I think i definitely do have negative associations with stable relationships. Something i definitely need to work through! I can’t keep thinking of relationships as ‘prisons’.
Natalie has once again miraculously hit the proverbial nail on the proverbial head. I am always in a state of amazement when I read her articles. It’s as if she is in my head and my life observing and all-knowing. 🙂
I am SO glad to hear her say that you cannot scare a good guy into being an assclown (I love that term of hers – “assclown” :)).
I was also SO gratified to see her mention that a man who isn’t a good guy could stay with a woman who questions him regarding whether he is being monogamous because he sees an apportunity for the short run. In other words,he exploits the woman by using her for companionship, fun, sex, or whatever it is that he gets out of her. She’s just a tool that he uses for his own self-gratificatoin and ego boost.
This actually happened to me 2 years ago. I wasn’t always questioning the guy or anything like that, but I mentioned enough times when I saw that he had logged onto Match.com, that he must have realized I was keeping my eyes open, as every woman has a RIGHT to do.
What always baffled me and I now understand the why of it based on what Natalie said, is that he didn’t dump me when I went to his house one weekend and I discovered that 2 “magic pills” were missing from a sample box that had been full the weekend before. I wasn’t going to say anything and just leave, but he kept insisting on what was wrong and why did I look sad. I finally told him what it was and he said that he wasn’t the type of man who would do something like that and that he had used them on himself to see if they would work in preparation for being with me because, supposedly, he hadn’t been with anyone for a while. Of course, needless to say, I tried to believe that stupid story because I didn’t want to think the worst of the situation, like I usually do. However, needless to say, he turned out to be a cheating bleephole and I had to break it off about 3 months later. It’s now been two years and I’m still in pain about the whole thing because it further eroded any little bit of trust that I could have in any man. And thanks to Natalie I now see that the reason he stayed was to use me. I had been very surprised that he didn’t break it off right there because he would have felt, I’m sure, that I had gone too far and that I had invaded his privacy, but as I said, it makes perfect sense that he didn’t and that he continued to see me and to pretend that he was really into me.
Oh, well, another assclown for the record books. I hope that someone does to him what he does to women. Justice is justice.
Hi A. Your ex demonstrates why assclowns can be dangerous. He was telling a rather silly lie but he didn’t see it as a lie because he’d convinced himself it was the truth or he was just hellbent on not revealing what he had done. Sometimes one lie reveals another lie so the liar fiercely protects the truth being revealed for fear of it exposing the real them. Stay away from liars – if you go along with them, you trap yourself in denial.
Natalie – Another superb post that has got me thinking. There was a period post break up with assclown when I was holding on,panicking, obsessively questioning the woulda, coulda, shoulda and I found myself asking that exact same question. Upon further reflection, and with the power of NC, growing self-esteem and the willingness to look at my role in it, I began to see him for what he was. Waves of realization washed over me and I would wake up, shaking my head having remembered some crap comment he made that I excused, some disrespect that I swallowed and justified. If you have to ask the question, likely you have not had a good man. It’s more likely that you are still in a fog and need to take off the rose coloured glasses and throw away the delusions. Pre-assclown, I had been with good men, who didn’t cheat and didn’t set off my insecurities. With the assclown, there was about 6 weeks at the beginning where his actions and words matched and I felt very secure. From that point on, I always doubted, always wondered and never felt safe. I am glad now, in hindsight, that I can see my mistakes and patterns and know next time to trust myself and my gut. With enough self-esteem and boundaries, I hope to never get in a similar situation again. Thanks for the guidance.
Hi Sule – “If you have to ask the question, likely you have not had a good man. ” Amen. When we can’t even trust our own judgement to determine what someone’s actions were towards us, it suggests that it is time for some introspection, not focusing on them. We must learn to love and trust our judgement otherwise we will never be safe and we won’t act in our interests.
I would say that my gut and instincts kicked in so strong first, before I realized the reality of his game. But I can vividly remember the feeling in my stomach that something wasn’t right. It is amazing what body language can give away, even when they are telling you different.
After 5 straight days of not being able to stop telling me he loved me, he became completely withdrawn and vacant on the 6th day. My gut said “another woman” but my mind didn’t have any evidence. It was only after snooping in his phone that I found the 63 text messages from his “ex” (really his current wife!) Looking back now I can see more and more of the signs of his lying, and I am truely awed at how strongly by instincts and gut kicked in before my mind had a clue about any of it. Turned out, my gut was right on about it, but my mind didn’t want to believe it, and it took awhile for it to sink it, when it finally did, it was very painful
Hi Left Wondering. I’m sorry that you have experienced what you have. You must trust your gut and don’t allow denial to be your friend. Anyone who withdraws after blabbering on about how much they love you is one to be suspicious of anyway. When reality and the illusions reconcile, it can be very painful, but it won’t last. Take care
I can relate to this post completely, having been on the receiving end from my troubled ex not of accusations of cheating, but rather bizarre claims that whatever I said had abusive meanings hidden within them. I think sadly those claims were born long ago from treatment she received at the hands of terrible AC’s.
One such attack I remember in particular was when my ex and I were out one night together. At one point she staggered from having had too much wine and my display of concern over whether she was tipsy and able to stand was somehow interpreted as my calling her a drunken whore. I still cannot work out the logic or emotional leap involved in that one to this day, save for that she saw her previous (abusive) boyfriend in my place at that moment. Perhaps she even saw several AC faces in my place then.
Another event that sticks in my mind was when I looked at her eyes and saw they were bloodshot late one night. My comment about that and question as to whether she was tired and needed to rest then somehow became an accusation that I thought she was an ‘ugly bitch’. A tirade against me followed despite my protests and attempts to empathize and understand why she thought that when I didn’t think such a thing (she was actually the most physically beautiful gf I had ever had).
The irony was that I think I fell for a ‘bad girl’ – much like many women will say they fell for the ‘bad boy’. The truly savage irony though was that even when I had decided to keep trying with the relationship she ended it. But when I was later told by her in subsequent communication that I was suddenly being a ‘true gentleman’ it generated an immensely cold flash of anger through me. One that made me transfer from my bank account into hers an estimated value both of all the gifts she had ever given me and costs incurred by her in my company, followed by my refusal to allow her to refund me and ultimately my severing all contact with her – I had never done, behaved or meant any differently at any time but something about that ‘true gentleman’ comment finally made my patience and empathy burn out.
I do however regret my angry reaction back then and perhaps I myself am an AC for it. But at the same time, like a lot of female readers here say about their ex AC’s, I wonder why I didn’t see the signs of a troubled soul earlier? At least I’m also more prepared for what to watch out for and avoid, as well as how so show a more measured compassion.
Hi Wayne, thanks for posting. I felt I wanted to get back because in some respects I experienced the ‘other’ side of what you describe. You only obliquely refer to why you felt obliged to refund your girlfriend and it reminded me that money is a very imperfect ‘currency’ in communicating. I too experienced a guy who when he looked at me, seemed to be seeing ‘past ‘women, women in general,needy women…(in his eyes).One night after intimacy both sexual and confiding, he spoke about a Tenesee Williams play, he couldn’t t remember which one, I said ‘ Blanche Devreux.. , Streetcar, Vivien Leigh…’ I have always relied on the kindness of strangers’. He looked me in the eye and said ‘ I bet you have used that line a lot before Les’. I was rendered from loving girlfriend to promiscuous, money taking, flighty, unstable woman in a second… To confirm I work hard, support a son,have never been kept,always supported myself, immensely non promiscuous. My point is Wayne, he was seeing me as something other than I am, perhaps from his past and that was acutely insulting to me.
There was also something I noticed about how he complimented me, almost always by e mail, by text…rarely through looking at me and repeating . In the end I saw the emotional distance he had put up between us by this way of communicating. Later, I wondered why when he said I was beautiful why I never believed it. This was why…There was imperfect alignment between his actions and his words…
I hope you find what you deserve Wayne… Lesx
Hi Lesley
On a certain level our experiences are indeed very similar and I can appreciate the pain and betrayal you felt in your circumstances.
I admit the mention of the money comment was oblique in the situation and I should clarify. The beginning to it ironically starts with how I would give her small gifts and help her with small things from time to time but, partly due to manipulative treatment from my father when growing up and also a conservative upbringing around how a man must be the provider to a woman (even though I have turned out more liberal in my politics), I was reluctant to accept gifts and help in return from both her and others for fear of exploitation – that was indeed my own issue. She highlighted it to me and how it was about my being emotionally closed in that area of my psych.
When I realised she was right I decided it was my responsibility to remove this perverse psychological shield, learn to receive help and not discourage a lover from giving me gifts intended to show love. Yet I actually unwittingly opened myself up to an attack. That came shortly after she had insisted on helping pay for some items for a party I was organising – about $200. And I remember telling myself to think of S’ lesson to me.
But when the relationship ended – actually immediately after that same party – she verbally attacked me for exploiting her by conspiring to take money from her. I also received wrath because of the +-$100 gift she had gotten me (it was my birthday), being told it was another example of my theft from her.
There was a barrage of attacks I received that night where despite my pointing to how I was none of things she accused me of and my attempts at finding out if there were deeper reasons why she was attacking me was my guilt was born, tried and convicted in her mind. The barrage was a huge shock and like your past lover’s words hurt you it insinuated unfairly among others that I was a liar, a control freak, prone to violence and just another of the men in her past relationships she had vaguely described who had stolen from her or borrowed money that was never repaid. This was also not just a temper tantrum – it was full of malice and a hatred I couldn’t comprehend.
The shock of being violently accused of, among others, stealing from her, when she originally had criticised me for not learning how to receive, due to a gift she had given and an expense she had paid for that I had promised to repay her later on for, did contribute to both my patience breaking and eventual anger. Hence why I sought to refund her everything I could think of in an emotional response. Having opened myself up emotionally in an area that was then psychologically attacked perhaps also felt like a betrayal to me. And maybe ironically my writing it here is finally putting my thoughts in order as I write it too.
It was indeed petty on one level, much like squabbling children. I suppose it was also odd way of mine to remind her that I had a conscience unlike those men from her past: having four financial degrees while rising up the ladder at work at a large African Bank that was actually thriving during the recent financial crisis meant I didn’t need to steal in the way AC’s indeed do and as I saw destroy my aunt.
When I review it all in my mind I do recall she said at the very end via email she had given the me +-$100 gift in love and that she didn’t want to be paid for it. But my anger was in charge by then and despite the hurt I just shut her out and told her to keep it and decide what she wanted to do with it. Again, that was AC-ish of me.
What does trouble me immensely is that as she was tearing into me and I was trying to understand why she would accuse me of not understanding her pain and being selfish. A friend in psychology has suggested that she may have been a severe bipolar personality in which case maybe I was indeed not understanding enough and maybe should have realised what was going on earlier. The extreme infatuations from her towards me, then the bizarre anger, signs of low self esteem and the rollercoaster rides from wonderful exciting highs to lows that were just so low, coupled with suggestions of verbal (maybe even physical?) abuse in her past seem to fit.
What I will highlight as a silver lining was that she was completely right about my having to learn to receive, because I would later learn I had unwittingly hurt or offended people I knew by not doing so. They perceived me as treating their efforts and love (as in general caring amongst common men and women) from them as worthless when I would not take them up on their offers of help in my crises or gifts.
But thanks too Lesley. I hope you do find what you deserve too.
Wayne, sometimes it’s important to recognise when you yourself are being abused. It’s very passive aggressive and directly aggressive for someone to say that something you said had abusive meanings behind it, especially when it didn’t. This is someone who is totally avoiding taking any responsibility for her actions and twisting stuff to suit her own agenda where you are painted as The Bad Guy and her a victim. She has taught you that if you don’t say and do as she expects that there will be negative consequences and that even if you try to please her, you may still find yourself in no mans land. This woman doesn’t like herself very much and also has no regard for others including the impact of her behaviour. Make sure you don’t find yourself in this situation again – like all the women who have been involved with assclowns, the guys that are involved with them, like you, deserve better. I hope you can find your way back to you and engage in healthier relationships.
Well i am only sorry i did not scare away what i thought really was a ‘love’ of my life’ a lot earlier. This man who initially put me on a pedestal so high i never thought i would come down, who treated me like a princess in so many ways and promised to not cheat as he had everything he wanted in myself, i discovered had been cheating for 14 months and i never suspected a thing. There were no red flags, he always had a true reason, maybe excuse, for not being where he was supposed to be, but after he became a little distant in the 2nd year of our relationship i actually asked him what was wrong and he said it was work related stress so i left it at that.
It certainly was work related, he had been cheating on me with a co-worker which i discovered quite by chance when i visited his home and was confronted by a female sitting in his car. He tried to pass her off as a relative but i asked her outright who she was and she told me she had been going out with him for 14 months!! I was shocked to my core and so was she to discover me and he had been together for 3 years.
So needless to say, i am alone because the trust has completely gone up the swanee between me and this man i really did love, there is no turning back even though i am truly heartbroken and my self-esteem has taken a knocking, the tears keep flowing and i wonder why he did such a sneaky thing on me when he said we had everything he ever could have in a relationship. Why on earth do some men do this sort of thing? Reading up on EUM’s and AC’s i really think on reflection he fits the bill.
So, when i recover which is going to take some time, i really do not know how i can believe a man again in anything he says. Maybe i was too available to this man because i lost some friends when i started the relationship. Once the cheating was discovered he actually asked me if i was willing to be a ‘friend’ who he could call up on occasion, but i could never be a ‘friend’ after being a lover. What is this nonsence about staying friends anyway, anyone?
@Susiejay – I am so sorry that you have been betrayed like that and that it came out of nowhere. I do hope you will learn to trust again.
The friends thing is so that they can keep a foothold in your life and also so they don’t feel like a*seholes for ending things/ being caught. It’s their way of not letting go completely. They’re totally selfish and don’t care how you may be coping with the pain and confusion, they just don’t want to lose touch with you completely in case they want to contact you again one day.
I am friends with my ex, who i was in a really healthy, loving, trusting relationship with for 5 yrs, which ended for good reasons and on good terms, BUT – we were friends for years before we got together and sort of drifted back into that dynamic. You can’t be friends with someone you still have romantic feelings for. For them to even put it out there is beyond idiotic!
If you play the relationship back slowly, you will see even small things that now in context were indicative of what was to come. When you strip out the honeymoon glow, the hopes, etc, what did you really feel and see? While there are occasionally serious con artists, most of these assclowns give off signals, we just need to be watching and listening. You have to ask why did he have to promise not to cheat, after all, being someone of integrity that respects the relationship is a basic, not something that needs to be promised out. You will learn to love again, because you will learn to love and trust yourself again. Right now you’re scared of making a poor judgement but work your way through the loss of the relationship, get wise about boundaries and keeping your feet in reality, and you will love and trust again.
I like this post – are we assuming all men will be ACs and over reacting or are some ACs and simply (and rightfully) causing us to freak out? I have been going through this lately, wondering if I had been too hard on my ex, thinking he may not have been as evil as I made him out to be. The other day I saw him in the hall at work and we said nothing (NC even at work, and we work very closely together). I was overcome with sadness, not because I suddenly thought he was great – he really isn’t, he is the very definition of an assclown – but because I missed the guy I thought he was in the beginning, the one he showed up pretending to be. That guy had made going to work fun and now work is nothing but a stressful unpleasant reminder of just how wrong my judgement in people can be. So, let’s be careful ladies. In whistful, nostalgic moments, we might be tempted to question whether he was a good one that got away. We need to keep trusting ourselves and our instincts and know that whatever it was that felt wrong, that set off the warning bells needs to be listened to. If he is a really great guy, it is unlikely you will be scared for long.
Hi Debra. All men aren’t ACs at all. There are plenty of wonderful men out there. It’s up to us to be responsible for ourselves, assess the risk and ensure we are around people of decent character that share our values. ACs do not share the same values as you, period. There is nothing wrong with being scared in a relationship but when fear transcends everything, it wrecks it. You can’t have a relationship with your fears and to ground yourself, you have to work out whether it’s internal or external. At the end of the day, if it’s internal and you don’t address those fears, you will wreck the relationship because you won’t believe that the relationship is good even with evidence to the contrary.
Let me tell you, I just blogged a bout a guy who was good but had bad breath among other things and I later learned he’d rather have a woman who wasn’t honest than a woman who was. I had to ask myself, what’s more important? Being able to say “Look I got good man, or dealing with a fonky breath every night?” Let’s just say I’m still single…I love your blog btw!
Hi Tinzley! Very funny! Although if he had more character and wasn’t an honesty dodger, you could have worked on the bad breath. Maybe.
Was he a good man? No. I have been obsessing about validation, wanting an apology, wondering if he will make contact, worried I let a good slip away. And then I stopped and thought – was I ever happy? Did I feel safe and respected? Why did I have to ask for so many apologies? Was he a good man- no. I haven’t wanted to see it or accept it, even when it was staring me in the face. I have been emotionally trapped for too long. I need to trust myself, validate myself and know I made the right choice. No more wondering if he was a good man. He is not. I need to work on believing I am a good woman who deserves better.
i’ve been following these posts religiously for a year now. i have made huge leaps and bounds… but sometimes, life throws a curveball. i briefly i considered the last guy i dated a “good guy” but who i now know and identify as classic EUM and a “one time in bandcamp” guy (in his case he was hurt by his ex-miss-world B-list crazy actress g/f who was married the whole time she was with him but who he claims he was “madly in love with and wanted to marry her”)… i just didn’t know better. my radar was off…i liked this guy and he was sweet and gentle and all the things (on the surface) i felt i was looking for. he was somewhat friends with my friends, painted himself as a “decent guy”…. basically i always thought and equated EUMs as “players” or “bad guys” or “assclowns”… b/c in my history they always have been. because he was none of those things, i pined away for him initially thinking of him as the “good one that got away”…the funny thing is..the fact that he was once friends with an ex who is the epitome of a sociopathic assclow EUM monster, should have been my red flag. anyways i cut off contact with “mr nice guy”, then decided over time i was over it and let him talk to me again after he’d called it off… and couple months later, he got close again, talking ever7y day/ text./online/phone calls/dates and then poof, went to europe for work, not a peep, came back and acted like mr buddy buddy, a colleague at best. i was like “wtf, what happpened?”… well after pushing it aside for awhile… 2 months later i decided to confront him in an email… an email which just confirmed what i’d already suspected.. he was pulling the classic EUM disappearing houdini act. moral of the story for me was: just b/c a guy doesn’t cheat on you, abuse you, lie to you, etc…basically just because he may be a “decent guy”…. doesn’t mean he’s NOT an EUM….. it’s the pattern that you have to recognize. i didn’t see the pattern the first time around… now i do…. but that also means we can’t settle for a guy just cuz he seems like the “a good guy”… he has to be present, available, willling, participating… otherwise the end result is the same damn thing as all the other EUMs. EUMs can be assclowns, but not always are…. they’re just what i consider “stealth mode” or “nice guys in disguise”
You just echoed what I believe and say ALL THE TIME. So often in film, music, sitcoms, the reason for leaving a man is if he lies, cheats, beats or in some other way mistreats (usually physically/verbally), you but I believe more often than not, it’s the more subtle things that make people separate. The lack of being present and accounted for, emotional connection, effort and presence of disinterest and a non-desire for growing in the relationship are the hallmarks of the EUM. Very well put.
@On my GOSH Read: https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/getting-real-about-recognising-inappropriate-relationship-behaviour-he-doesnt-need-to-cheat-or-beat-to-be-an-assclown/
Hi Jojogirl. I yawned for his One time in bandcamp tale. He must hear violins when he says it 😉 It is amazing what women will put up with in the name of a Good Guy. It’s not all about cheating, beating, and being a playa. We have to change our ideas about what is acceptable and focus on values, and as you say being emotionally, spiritually, and physically present for the relationship. He was a stealth bomber, but he was still a bomber.
Hi Dee – very well said. Trust your own judgement – don’t undermine it.
Hey guys,
just reading everyones responces, so interesting.
The biggest issue I had was actually believing him to be a good guy and that some how I screwed it all up. He did nothing to quell that huge amount of crap I took on and was blamed for. In reality he was not a great guy, in reality he lied, manipulated, blew hot and cold, faked a future, moved goal post and I mean constatly, was obsessive, jealouse, critical, controlling, he was calculating, had problems with empathy and then blamed all that and more onto me. Then reset the relationship from very serious, moving out together, 5 year plan to buy a place etc to friends and I was apparently suppose to be ok with it. I tried to be friends at 1st but I wasn’t aloud to talk about the past, our relationship had ceased to exist!!!! Can you imagine? Honestly I felt like I was going insane.
One of the most painful, weird, confusing and hurtful experiences I’ve ever had.
He was never a good guy he just pretended to be one. He basically becomes all the things he thinks you want him to be, which is basically started the whole relationship out as a lie. Even down to pretending he didn’t drink coffee because I don’t? Then towards the end sneaking a cup here and there. Then if I said hey I can smell coffee on your breath, he would hide it. Then tell people I made him stop drinking it !!! The whole thing took place without my knowledge or input?!?!? In fact a lot of dramas he actually created had zero to do with me.
When he left me he told me I should learn to trust. Which was odd because the only one I saw act insanely jealous was him? But the person who had more reason not to trust was me, after all any tiny problem was made so huge by him that he would either withdraw and for weeks or leave me then come running back.
He is the most inconsistant person I’ve ever had the displeasure of meeting.
I’m so glad I realise this now.
Trinity, your ex sounds like mine!
My ex actually is just as ill-equipped at dealing with relationships as I am! He was so good at making himself out to be a “good, decent guy” that he wonder why I wasn’t playing to his plan – a plan he ‘forgot’ to include me in.
To be honest, it was a battle between having a relationship (aka. substitute mother) and having a 2nd family (aka. his friends). In the end he defaulted into the latter, mainly because he got to have more fun with them; it was consistant and he didn’t have to deal with any real intimacy, a major barrier between us.
Every bit of his behaviour was controlled, even down to the fact that he didn’t want me to see him ‘drunk’ (BS). He complained that I never looked after him when he was ill (even though I seem to recall him always being armed with Lemsip/paracetemol and had never thrown up in my toilet). The classic “faking a future” peaked at the “what would you do if you were pregnant? Would you keep my baby?” after initiating the “I want to take a break” line. When I said “no”, either he was completely living in an alternate reality where he believed I was going to actually say “yes” or he was really showing his true AC behaviour to justify breaking it off. All this from a guy who had previously offered to help me financially get an abortion if I needed one!!!
Good man my arse. I’d rather see an AC for an AC than one who cultivates a fake persona to hide his real insecurities.
@ Wayne.
That sounds really awful, don’t beat yourself up over your retaliation as you didnt really do anything wrong. You have to no with people who act as your x did you can never win. You are and will be better off without her. Don’t stop being a good guy, we need more like you 🙂 just choose more wisely or get out sooner when you see trouble so the impact isn’t so great.
It can hurt when your the good one and you have decided to keep trying only to have them walk out. That part also happend to me but it is what it is. Would have been better for our self esteem if we had walked not them. After all they are the ones behaving badly. This cones down to believing in yourself, having stronger boundarys and trusting your choices/instincts. In other words….self love.
Take care 🙂
Hmmmm……reading these responses on here is really interesting and i can now see that this ex i wrote about above is a EUM and AC also, well at least he has quite a lot of indications of both. He did go AWOL on me Christmas 2009 after we had a great day out at a Christmas procession where we visited a church, sang carols, lit candles for our respective dead spouses, hugged and kissed as we entered the spirit of the approaching festive season, and then he went missing, came back to me after 15 days of NC just as if nothing was amiss, he literally bounced into my kitchen and announced he suffered from SAD. Well as i had been with him 2 years previously and never saw any signs of that condition, i knew he was lying. And then he hit me with the ‘wedding invite’. Deceitful pig.
Yes, on reflection he did a lot of lying during the relationship, he always had an excuse as to where he was, or should have been so i had no reasons to doubt him, well you dont really when things seem to be going smoothly and you think you have found someone you can relate to and who seems Mr. Genuine! I look back now and see how he took me for granted in quite a few ways, and with hindsight which is a wonderful thing i was so into him that i never made a fuss, or complained.
Now i know about the (OW) everything has fallen into place as to why sometimes he was unavailable which i find so hurtful. He must be such a scheamer to carry on a double life between the two of us (or maybe more than the two of us) and yet not let either know about the other/s existence. The strange thing is i had holidays with this man in the past year, he bought me yet another ring and other expensive gifts and the OW has had neither, so i dont know what sort of relationship they had/have together – no strings attached i would imagine. More fool her if she has stayed, the fact that she knows he is a cheat and a liar would be enough for me.
I know, at the end of the day i am, and will be, better off without him, i dont like liars or cheats and anyone who sets out to be with a married or attached man is setting themselves up for hurt, but at least they have had the choice of being in a relationship they should not be in, its slightly different when you do not know the truth as to whether they are married or attached etc. This man was widowed. I just have to get over the thoughts of him, the things we did together, the feelings of worthless for being ‘dumped’ but i am a pretty strong person and will survive. So i go onwards to the future and hope.
I have to say that this really hit home for me because I started out thinking that my ex-AC was one of the “good guys” that I was going to let get away. The fact is, when the relationship started I was that woman with boundaries and core values. Some how (and that’s the part I am still trying to figure out) he manipulated me from what I allowed in a relationship.
Long story short, in the start of our relationship (first couple months) he told me he could only focus on one woman at a time; implying that he wanted to see how things went with us. I believed him. He ended up sleeping with another woman. I was crushed. I walked away and wished him well. About a month later he contacted me wanting to know how I was. He eventually told me about the evening with the other woman and how “it just happened”, “he hadn’t spoken to her since”, blah, blah, blah. He wanted one more chance, he was sorry, he would NEVER hurt me again. I made him earn back my trust, which he did in a few months time. Fast forward a year later. He confided in me that he took viagra and had to since his prostate cancer, which was 7 years prior. A light bulb went off in my head back to the day he told me that the night with that woman “just happened”. It didn’t just happen, he planned it!! He can’t have spontaneous sex, he has to take the pill which takes a while to kick in. HE LIED TO ME!! That only confirmed all the flying red flags after that when I questioned things about him and our relationship. And EVERY time he would convince it was insecurities, me being paranoid.
Bottom line, he was the AC I thought he was. I knew it early on and some how he convinced me other wise. He was good enough to continue on lying, cheating and sucking me back in with his lies to cover the lies for 3 1/2 years. Before AC, I had never had a relationship like that one. I never put up with being treated like that. I’m in my mid 40’s–how on earth did I end up being so blind sided by someone like him?! Still working on that one!
If it talks like an AC, walks like and AC and smells like an AC…HE is an AC! Period!
Ditto Ditto Ditto – you’re speaking my story girl!! I wish we really could have coffee!!! Where the heck are you?
reading these responses on here is really interesting, it’s amazing how blind sighted one can get.
This post is so true. It’s funny how easy it is to fall back into old patterns. Even when logic and reason are screaming at you from the back of your mind, old habits seem to steamroll right over them. Instead of seeing a man for what he really was, you start blaming yourself for pushing away a good man when he was really an AC or EUM. I was dating this AC who was sending out red flags galore: would only communicate through email or text, would only try to make plans with me last minute, came an hour late to a movie etc. I rightfully thought “if he does one more inconsiderate thing, I’m gonna tell him to hit the road”. So the next time he made last minute plans to go to happy hour with me and then blew me off to go grocery shopping and cook (“but u can come over if u want”) I told him very clearly that I thought it was inconsiderate of him to treat me the way he was and that if he ever wanted to see me again he’d have to tell me a place AND a time beforehand or I would go spend time with people who I knew wouldn’t leave me hanging (not quite “hit the road”! but hey, I’m a work in progress. I was proud of myself for setting this boundary, but when a week went by with not so much as a peep from him I started to doubt myself. “Maybe I was too harsh, maybe he didn’t realize that his behavior had bothered me before, maybe he would have treated me better if I hadn’t slept with him so early etc. etc.” Instead of seeing his silence as confirmation that he obviously wasn’t the right guy for me (disrespectful, cowardly & immature), I spent days thinking about how I could talk to him again and try to get him to want me back. I suppose that even though I had determined it wouldn’t work out anyway, I was still hit by a feeling of rejection and I would rather have salvaged my ego by having him try to work things out with me than realize that he just wasn’t into me enough to treat me with the respect I deserve. Reading your posts is helping me listen to the logical voices that have always been there saying “you deserve better, NEXT!”
Well here i am almost 2 months of NC and i still have mixed emotions about what happened between me and he. I realise now that even though he had this OW (well one i now know about – could be others of course), i think i must have been the main one because of the way he showered me with gifts and holidays and the OW said she had neither. Possibly his guilty conscience, but i found out today the last ring he bought me for my birthday in April which is a beautiful tanzanite/diamond ring is actually quite expensive the silly man, i would have preferred him to be faithful, he did not have to buy me anything!!
I actually shed a few tears today of what might have been, the if only’s, and the frustration of what we initially enjoyed together before he started to show his ‘true colours’. Is this a normal reaction? Is this part of the getting over him? I had to stop myself from txting to thank him again for that ring today, but i had a little weep instead, and it did help.
Is it normal to wonder if this OW is still seeing him and thinking of how she would now perhaps be better treated, or if he is an EUM/AC (i really think so by his actions) would he treat her like he treated me in a dismissive manner eventually with absolutely no respect or concern for my feelings when he ended the relationship, so cold, so unemotional like a total stranger to me. Thats one thing i keep thinking about, i was completely shocked and stunned by his behaviour that day he seemed like a different man altogether, i just could not get my head around what he was telling me, i literally thought i was hearing it all wrong – has anyone else has this feeling?
So just when i think i am healing i obviously have some way to go. Damn him he really messed with my head. And to think he was the one who kept saying I didnt trust HIM! Whats that saying ‘Evil Thinkers are Evil Doers’.
This is all normal, SJ! It’s a long, tiring process, but with NC, efforts to rebuild your own life and other friendships and interests, you will get there. I sensed a massive leap in my thinking between month two and month three, from the awful, victim feelings (that are real and necessary and should not be ignored or minimized) and tears for what could have been, to the position that I am in now where I can see better what was going on for both of us. This has slowly settled into something good, along the lines of, ‘well that was a hideous situation, but I am glad he showed his true colours before too much damage to my life was done. Focusing on my own life and looking forward to meeting a more healthy man in good time.’
There is a risk that in swinging towards the other side – in which we can see what they did and some of the reasons why, including the impacts of our fantasy-making – we begin to muffle our own legitimate feelings and twist things around to make them the good guy again. It’s hard to settle on a picture, and be loyal to your actions and values. But that will come for all of us, as the trauma becomes less distressing and less interesting.
In any case, I do know exactly how you feel. The horrible truth is that by the time these guys leave us, they’ve been preparing themselves emotionally for some time – hence the coldness, and, because they can’t be the bad person EVER, they have to flip it around and demonize the victim, to get rid of the guilt they have. You have to remember that these types of people are emotionally stunted and unstable, and if you add a capacity to be incredibly unkind to the mix, it can be truly nightmarish.
Go on with mourning both things – but remember that it’s because he has these two extreme sides to him, and a whole lot of fickle in between. Not healthy! Not good for you!
SJ, Elle- We all seem to be about the same place in our grieving/recovery from some EUM/AC men. Between month 2 and 3, the anger seems to fade and we begin to see our contributions to the problem a little more clearly. It wasn’t all his fault, no matter how badly he acted. That raises the question of what to do about it. Do we reevaluate him in light of this? I have been flip flapping a bit over the past weeks, seeing him both as the hurtful, insensitive AC he really is -and boy, is he! – but I also now see that I am predisposed to view everything he said and did in a very bad light. Picturing is the right word for it, and I had put him on a pedastal. I have now ripped the halo I put on his head off and replaced it with a pair of horns. Yes, he is emotionally unavailable, stunted and his behaviour used to confuse me terribly. But my behaviour probably didn’t make much sense to him either. We were both damaged people, trying to meet our own needs and not communicating properly. It doesn’t make me a bad person and it doesn’t make him one either. The difference is that I have learned that, while he never thought he was a bad person and still doesn’t. I expected too much from him. Next time, I will try and keep from letting my imagination run riot.
You know Sarah i love those words ‘flip/flapping’ it just about sums up my feelings on occasion.
I am at the stage where i wish ill of him for putting me in this position of hurting, days when i have fond memories of the things we shared together, days when i think its all surreal it ever happened, and days when i long to see him once more. But i know i have to remain in NC because i realise there would be no point in contacting him again and not being able to trust him. Without trust i believe there really cannot be love and as he said he didnt know what love was anyway it would be like banging my head on a brick wall. I find it confusing that there are EUM/AC men out there as i was married for a long time before my hubby succumbed to his illness and we got on so well.
I am worried now as to whether i shall ever find someone to share my life with who i wont be giving the third degree looking for signs of EUM/AC’s. This man seemed to hide those conditions fairly well initially, but on looking back maybe it was me who did not know what signs to look for in the first place!
Does anyone else have flip flapping days, or is it me being nostalgic and silly?