Sometimes we think that we can fit in a relationship even though we’re technically still under contract because we’re separated and there’s still a lot to resolve. Next thing, we’re like an overstuffed sausage and throwing ourselves into work (or claiming that we are) as a way of avoiding having to deal with our marriage and our other relationship that we’ve promised ourselves to when we were in a better mood and feeling more enthusiastic/horny/deluded/scared/hopeful.
The latter is what I sense has happened with Sandy in today’s Advice Wednesday and two years down the road with her “kind and very gentle” separated guy who now seems to have The Busiest Job In The World TM and is asking and in fact insisting on her patience, her relationship isn’t really going anywhere.
Some people find it easier to drop hints by making themselves unavailable through some other convenient excuse rather than admit that they don’t want the relationship anymore or jeopardise having all of the fringe benefits (shag, ego stroke, shoulder to lean on, safety net etc).
If I were in a relationship with a separated uber-busy guy for two years, I’d probably have rationalised the hell out of things, reassuring me that he’s separated but not ‘married married’. I’d probably be scared of leaving and it all being a ‘waste’ and even looking like a ‘fool’. I’d say stuff like, “I just need to be patient. He’s a good guy in a bad situation. If I just hang in there and don’t make too many waves, he’ll get the divorce sorted and we can move on with our own lives. Sure, if I start dating now, who knows who I might meet…. All the good men are gone. It’s so hard out there and he’s so kind and gentle with me. Push down those tears, take a few deep breaths and play the long game. Ugh…this hurts so much…”
No wonder she has her doubts about him and this situation.
As the saying goes, if things aren’t adding up, start subtracting.
If you’re supposed to be in a relationship but it feels and even looks more like their sideline hustle rather than their main gig, pull the plug because you shouldn’t have to fight your partner to make basic time for you or have to threaten to leave. Why should somebody have two people ‘on retainer’ while you swing in the wind waiting for them to slot you in?
Also, there are undoubtedly separated people who don’t start new relationships and then put the new person on layaway while they decide what to do with themselves or keep their foot in their marriage and have the best of both worlds. They separate, take time to sort out their situation and don’t leave people hanging. When you’re put in the situation of living on the fringes of someone’s life while they claim that they’re in a relationship with you or you end up feeling as if you’re losing your dignity by having to chase them up about what the hell is going on, it’s demoralising. No person who truly loves, cares for, trusts and respects you, should put you through that.
Have you waited around for somebody to make time for you, to finally get their divorce up and running, to finally show up to the relationship? What did you do? What advice do you have for Sandy?
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The separated guy I came close to having a relationship 4 years ago- I get to see he and his wife at Disneyworld on facebook. The Married to Mom guy who only has time to give Mommy Dearest what she wants- he’s still doing it 7 years down the road. Trust me folks, if there is not time for you in the “relationship”, you don’t need to figure out anything except which way the EXIT is!
Once again, you are dead on, Nat! I was in a similar twist with a man who was not separated or anything like that, but still used his busy schedule to manipulate his availability at will. God forbid I ever had legitimate pressing issues that would sideline him!! That made him INSANE!!! But he would do it to me all of the time. So, I did some simple arithmetic as you put it and practiced my “subtraction.” 🙂 Of course, THEN, he was trying to make ALL kinds of time for me. Too little, too late. Nat is right. If he can’t make time for you now, then when? When it suits him to do so? I don’t think so… That’s not a partnership; that’s servitude.
There aren’t many absolutes in life but this is one of them: people always have time for what’s important to them. Always. Show me what someone devotes their quality time to and gives their energy to, and I’ll know immediately where their heart is at and what their priorities are.
This comment makes me sad because it’s so true. I am in the middle of a dilemma. I have a super busy boyfriend who I have in naively ‘supporting’ to do extra hours in work. It turns out that when a family event comes up he can take a whole weekend off. Oh and I’m not invited! Thanks for this. It’s simple but true! I deserve more than crumbs 🙂
I am really tired of contorting myself in order to be patient and understanding when I was NEVER first. At one point I bought tickets to a show and was then told he wasn’t sure he could go because he’d have the kids. He had the kids every weekend and several days during the week. I wasn’t expecting him to be a negligent father, but arranging at least one date night a week, and maybe one weekend a month, shouldn’t have been too much to ask/expect. He was EUM, but did say he thought he loved me about 2 weeks after I said it to him first. However, about 2 weeks after that he told me we had to end things because he wasn’t ready for a relationship and couldn’t give me what I needed. I had started to get even more frustrated at his lack of contact, so I brought it up. At first he promised that he’d make more time for me. It was 2 days after that conversation before I heard from him. I got a desperate text from him asking is I was OK (like I’d harm myself over the lack of his attention!). I responded that I was fine. It took him another 3 days to contact me again, this time via email. So, I brought it up and that’s when I was told it was all just too much for him. Yes, I was an idiot. I knew all of this a long time ago. It took me 2 years to finally realize that he had to have some really serious issues to tell me he loved me and end it two weeks later. You make time for people you love, right? It has only been a few days NC and I’m fighting the urge to contact him.
Ugh! Reading you could have totally being my story instead. Granted, no concert tickets but reservations at nice cozy resort. And mind you, his kids are 19 and 17. Im so sad. My head knows, my heart doesn’t.
Sis please RUN!! He does not love you nor respect you. He talks to you when he wants, sees you when he wants not because he is super busy. He doesn’t want to put in any effort to see you bcuz you’re not a priority. Even if he had the kids every day a man would move mountains to stop by to see you or spend time if he wanted to. You can’t stop a man from doing what he wants. He just doesn’t want to. I’ve been there. Reading your story it sounds like the fool I was. There is no rationalizing that can be done. He uses you when he feels like it. Let him go today please!
@Wiser
This comment is really helpful. Thanks for posting it. So the years I’ve lost is the time I gave up to thinking I am not important, that my life is not important enough. Where did that start I wonder?
Wiser/ L’ano, your comments combined are so true. Wasted years putting energy in the wrong places. I know where it started – parents who couldn’t look after themselves, never mind me, so I put their tragic lives first and then went far into adulthood thinking ‘why aren’t I important to anyone’? But I don’t really mourn the lost time, I’ve gained the rest of my life and don’t take that for granted.
Wiser
It’s so true! I think it can be very hard to accept it sometimes, so we make excuses, rationalize, etc.. Bottom line, if it’s important, you’re there.
Perfectly put.
Nat,
This was thought provoking. I am learning a lot about boundaries right now and people who are “too busy” are becoming red flags to me. Like a sister of mine who expects me to drop everything when she needs me but who only answers my texts or calls when she isn’t busy. But she is always busy. And isn’t it interesting that these guys who work so much had time at the beginning when there was sex and no expectations? But, again, what I am learning from you, Nat, is that this is really a way for US to remain unavailable. I used to love to hide out in the victim role but I have wasted many years there. I have also started to look at when I say I’m too busy — I do it as a socially acceptable excuse but I am seeing it for what it is. I am too busy for people who don’t feel good to me and am available for the people I like and prefer. Recently I found myself cancelling once again with a man who is “SO NICE” that I felt guilty for not secretly liking him. I felt I should like him but he obligated me and was kind of whiney and clingy. When I cancelled abruptly I realized what I was doing and owned it. “Sorry, I am not really into a romantic relationship, as I told you, but I am also finding we don’t really have enough in common for a friendship, either.” This was a first for me because friendship used to be my catch-all label, a sort of consolation prize. So I learned a lot.
I can SO relate to Sandy’s situation. I was in a similar kind of relationship. All I heard were his constant kind and gentle reminders that I needed to understand his situation, how demanding his work was, how incredibly maxed out he was, and I just needed to be patient. I was constantly trying to see things from his perspective and stop being so needy and self centered. Then one day I thought “Hey, how come he’s never tried to see things from my perspective, and how I might feel unimportant to him and Im always having to wait for the right time to talk to him about something, when was a good time to call so I would bother him, never be able to make plans to do anything because he never knew if he would be available. I had become very emotionally attached to him and loved so many things about him. It was really hard to face we both had a choice and he wasnt going to make one. I had to ask myself if I was really going to allow myself to depend on him to make a choice and not make a choice of my own about how I didnt want to be treated or how I wanted to feel. It was even more painful to make that choice and gracefully to opt out without with minimal emotional drama. The pain, disappointment, anger (some at him for not choosing – which was his right so couldnt really be angry with him about that, we all have free choice and its a wonderful thing, but I still was angry about it, and some about the situation). That was a year ago. I miss the “high” of the way my heart would jump and how incredibly happy I would be when he did make time for me. That was glorious. I remember thinking how one high could sustain me through weeks of lows and it was worth it – so I could feel so wonderful even if it was just for a few hours. It was better than not ever feeling it at all. I still miss him from time to time and wonder how he is. I am still single. But overall Im feeling much better and the quality of life has gotten better. I don’t walk around feeling neglected, unworthy of his attention, and unvalued. I can make plans to do things with friends and know I look forward to it. Im not constantly keeping myself apprised of his situation so I know when it’s a good time to call, text, or talk to him about something, or hope for some kind of real human interaction and sharing. Im not putting myself second or worse yet last. Good luck, it hurts like a big dog to choose better for yourself but if it helps to know – he popped into my head the other day and I found myself wondering if he would ever come back into my life again and want to start things up. My heart used to skip at the idea. This time I was completely surprised at my next thought/emotional response: I didn’t want to be with him again since that’s the way he probably really is ( and all arrows point to it’s how he is no matter what).
@Valerie
That is exactly what I put up with for 2 years. After an abusive marriage of 20 years this seemed fairly drama free. It was so much better than what I had with my EX that it was easy to ignore what wasn’t good about it. One thing I learned, be very wary of a man who boasts about how independent he is. It’s code for someone who can’t partner with someone, who is afraid of being vulnerable, and isn’t capable of having a real relationship.
I had almost five years of living like that. Then in April of last year he moved in. Progress!!! Here we go! But wait! In December, I found out he hadn’t had her served papers yet, but he assured me that as soon as Christmas was over, it would happen. Supposedly it happened in January. He didn’t tell me a lot about it…said he didn’t want me to stress. Looking back, he kept a lot of stuff he did rather quiet. But like it says above, you don’t want to rock the boat.
In March this year, 11 months to the day of him moving in, I came home to a U-Haul in the driveway. “The boys (11 and 13) need me. They’ve been calling me and crying. And see? Look at the happy faces on the text they sent me after I told them I was coming home! I’ll still be sleeping on the couch, so you don’t have to worry. Oh and I got to thinking about that retirement money you’ll be getting from your ex. It won’t still be coming in if something happens to you. I didn’t tell you I was leaving because I thought this would be easier. We can still be friends, right? Maybe we can get together for bike rides? How about the bike camping trip we talked about? I know I said was going to go alone and didn’t want you there, but now I think it would be ok if you came along.”
I said where he sleeps isn’t my business and they could **** like bunnies if he wants. Anything he does is not my business as soon as he walked out the door. Told him I hope he gets everything he deserves.
Just a couple weeks ago, he contacted me and started complaining about how his wife and daughter are treating him. My response: Don’t want to hear it. It was your choice. Have a nice life.
I have unfriended him on Facebook, walk past him without speaking at work on the rare occasion that we are in the same area unless he says something first (then I say “hey” and keep walking), deleted him from my phone list. He is dead to me.
It’s time now for me to take care of myself and my house. I have a glass of wine now and then while I snuggle on the couch with the dog we got. He left her behind, which is fine because he “beat her ass” when she had an accident at 5-6 months old. I’m much more relaxed and happier with myself. I don’t have someone trying to “bring me out of my shell because everyone would really like me if they got to know me better.” I don’t get crap for wearing a certain color of pants or my prairie skirts or get slyly hidden criticism about my hair or weight or housekeeping, etc.
I learned. Unless they’re completely free and clear, they’re unavailable. I’m worth more than just hanging around hoping he’ll be free soon. If I’m alone for 5 months or 5 years or forever, it’s ok. What I had was NOT the type of relationship I want to repeat. It left me feeling scummy and used….and rather stupid for falling for all the same old lines that have been used again and again by these guys who seem able to justify their behavior.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve read this site and said to myself that certain posts hit home. I started repeating “no contact” over and over. It took a couple months after he left because we women are always taught to “be nice” and I didn’t want to make him feel bad. Then there was this little bit of hope that he’d return??? A good friend asked me outright “WHY???” We had a talk and she was blunt. She said I was right to be nice…to ME. Him, not so much. Now I am being nice….to ME. As for hanging around waiting for communication on his terms, being friends with him on his terms, going on bike rides, getting texts and phone calls and generally being “available”…it’s not happening.
On a slightly mean note: according to his sister, Karma has hit fast and hard. I am aware he left because of money more than the kids. Within a month, he ended up in the hospital to have a heart procedure and has been on light duty at work ever since, so no overtime. That’s a loss of close to $500 every two weeks. Had a second procedure last week. So he’s getting all sorts of time at home with his boys, like he said he wanted (maybe not quite like he planned). He bought a newish SUV 4 days after returning. She crunched it within 2 weeks. He wasn’t allowed to participate in a work-related fund raising 3-day bicycle ride because of his health status…but I went, had a great time and posted lots of pictures on the website. And the motorcycle he bought specifically so he could go to bike week is parked in the garage because he got out of the hospital just Saturday and isn’t allowed to ride it per doc’s orders.
Cat, Im so sorry you went through that. The thing is though to not get involved with anyone who hasn’t fully resolved there past relationship. If they havent divorced you are really dating a married man. Hell..even if they have divorced Id be leary of getting involved until they had stood on their feet for a couple of years. He was not independent..he had to move in with you. What a loser ! A real man would have set himself up independently, so he could provide a home for his kids and one where he could welcome a woman in. Hes pathetic. Raise the bar next time.
I connected with Conman that’s what my daughter calls him. We went to the same primary school and for a year he asked me out. Eventually I agreed to us dating we were both 49 at the time. On paper he ticked all my boxes he was in a relationship for over 20 years, had two grown up children, worked had his own house. In the first month we got on like a house on fire. Yes we talked about his break up and I did feel there was more to the break up than he said or even knew. Into the second moth of our union his 19 year old son moved in and I took a back seat. In fact the seat was so far back I wasn’t even in the same room. He hasn’t seen me with anyone but his mum he needs some reassurance etc. I waited and waited with each week the tension built for me. Scared to ask the question when can I come round why am I separate after all he had been single so he said for 3 years. Questions created tension and moody response often resulting in him walking away from me leaving me feeling why did I say anything. When he made himself available again and I didn’t respond he promised things would be different I’m the greatest and he didn’t want to lose me only for it to happen again if I asked the question. It felt wrong yet I hung in there trying to convince myself it would be worthwhile. Who was I kidding! Hanging around, suppressing how I felt took me back to a place in my 20’s what was I doing and why! During this period of uncertainty a friend gave me your book title…when he was missing I would read and feed myself knowing I could relate to most of what you said. Thinking I was strong enough I took him back more than once feeling I could make him realise his failing. During those times I stopped reading couldn’t face the written words telling my story! This time not only did he walk out on me but he tried to shift the dynamics only is time he went too far! I told him he doesn’t get to treat me like this and there’s no way I want him! 6 months on I ask myself now and again why I endured his antics and I couldn’t see my worth. I’m in a much better place in my head. I’m single and I’m getting to know me I’m moving away from thinking that’s all I deserve so why complain. I’ve just need to extend this to my family who thinks because I want peace in my life they can read rough shod over my feelings because I excuse it. Thanks Nat for assisting with your wisdom in my growth! I know some basic facts which I never adhered to previously always doing things and saying things for acceptance! ‘Saying no doesn’t make me a bad person’
Loved reading. So happy you found your strength and the light bulb went off.
It was demoralizing when my EUM played the coward card and let me do his dirty work and end the relationship, but you know what? It was demoralizing enough for me to learn my lesson and stay away from anyone that poisons my spirit again. A coward helped me take back my power…the pain and suffering he caused pales in comparison to the possibility of stepping into future relationships with incapables!
Awesomeness. Get it girl!
I waited for my ex to commit for five years. I waited for him to prioritize me over pot, as well as his friends who smoke pot, for five years. He did propose, but in the end he chose pot over our relationship. He then started dating a girl long distance, all the while randomly poking at our dead ass relationship, until I saved myself by blocking his number. He is now engaged to the girl whom he dated long distance. My point is, they don’t change. My ex may be getting married, but I have no doubt that he is any more emotionally available. He wasn’t over his ex when I met him, and he was still bugging me when he met the new girl. Don’t be a buffer. You deserve better. Alone is better than starving on that bullshit diet of crumbs. Way better! I wouldn’t trade these years of self discovery and healing for the world. You are worth it! Oh, and BR has been a lifesaver!
If I like someone, I have the freedom to upend my life to make time for them. In fact, I have to make sure I don’t overdo it lest I seem too available. When the phrase, “I’ve been super busy” pops up after they’ve gotten what they wanted, cut your losses. Also, if they have unfinished business with a spouse or an ex, they are like brats who haven’t finished their veggies, yet you are the dessert they get to nibble on first. It’s bullshit. Make time for me and I will reciprocate. If you keep eyeing the door when we are together, it’s not locked, so use it and get the hell out. I’m not a prison guard and you are not an inmate. ????
If I like someone, I have the freedom to upend my life to make time for them. In fact, I have to make sure I don’t overdo it lest I seem too available. When the phrase, “I’ve been super busy” pops up after they’ve gotten what they wanted, cut your losses. Also, if they have unfinished business with a spouse or an ex, they are like brats who haven’t finished their veggies, yet you are the dessert they get to nibble on first. It’s bullshit. Make time for me and I will reciprocate. If you keep eyeing the door when we are together, it’s not locked, so use it and get the hell out. I’m not a prison guard and you are not an inmate. ????
Dear Natalie,
thank you for all your post and articles! I love reading them and they helped me go through bad times.
Please don’t get me wrong with the following!!!!! My feeling is that all your articles are about why we have to leave men and that we are far better off without them and staying alone. I would love to read something positive about men and relationships. When is worth to fight for the relationship and stay in it? When is it time to fight for a man or give him a chance?
As mentioned before I don’t want to critisise as I still will read and listen to all of your posts! But maybe it is an idea.
Love,
Kerst
Not sure where you’re getting the idea that Nat’s saying women are better off alone? She met her husband after lots of unsatisfying relationships after all! You’re obviously seeing things that I’m not seeing. Her blogs are about developing your own self-awareness so you can recognise and change your patterns; healthy/unhealthy relationships – amongst other things.
It’s interesting that you even use the term ‘fight for a man’ however. I thought one of the messages of Nat’s site was that love isn’t pain; pain is pain – if you feel like you’re having to struggle and put up a ‘fight’ to ‘trap’ a man then that by itself tells you something is majorly wrong.
Claire, thank you for your reply.
What person is perfect? What person has no issues the other party has to adjust to? Especially the older we get and as more we are self-confident and set our boundaries. So do we give up the relationship as soon as we realise the other one has issues? I have issues and hope that the partner does not give up on me straight away.
What relationship/love always goes smooth without any barriers/pain/…? That’s what I mean with fight. Do I sit back and wait? Do those long lasting marriages never have struggles? I know for sure that they struggle too. But they fight for their relationship.
I am not talking about abusive people or liars. My ex was a liar and a cheater. I went through hell. I just need a little hope that I do not have to wait for the “perfect” man with no issues. This I know would be hopeless.
Thank you!
Well I definitely take issue with this: ‘all your articles are about why we have to leave men and that we are far better off without them and staying alone.’ That’s not at all what this place is about; however if it teaches me how to avoid the time-wasting, assclown kind of man then I’m all for it. I’ve learnt so much from here it’s not even true. In your second post you seem to say you’re NOT talking about liars, manipulators etc anyway?! I think Nat has talked before about how in her marriage she has to be mature and be willing to ‘step up’ and communicate so no of course no relationship is perfect and like something out of a fairytale – certainly I can’t recall any implication from Nat that we should be sitting around waiting for a Ken doll ‘Mr Perfect’.
Of course everyone has issues; there’s really no such thing as being issue-free. I just feel questions like ‘How do I know whether it’s worth staying in a relationship?’; ‘How will I know whether he’s worth staying with?’ etc deal with such nebulous concepts that you can’t answer them directly anyway because you have to find what’s personally right for YOU. I think each question like that needs unpacking and working through and from what I can see they have been, in the hundreds (thousands?) of blogs Nat has done so far – e.g. code amber/red behaviour, the debit/credit trust system – giving out an initial level of trust and moving forward if all is okay but stepping back and reconsidering if something feels ‘off’. Maybe search by theme above?
We ARE better off without toxic relationships. Alone is better than toxic. After having been on this site for a while, and single for a while, I can see that maybe I’m not ready anymore for a relationship. That what I need probably doesn’t exist – I want to be with someone that is emotionally healthy at a level necessary to maintain a relationship. I think I am at this level. I have a lot of issues. But many issues are perfectly compatible with a good relationship and/or can be worked on. But some issues are not compatible with a relationship – the question is how you can figure this out. Thats what this site does.
We should never ‘fight’ for anyone. Fighting for someone means they’re resisting and you’re digging in insisting that what you have is good. That is desperation.
Giving a chance – when I look at my close relationships, outside of family, the good friends – I have never had to ‘give’ anyone a chance. They are just good people that don’t eff others over. Ok think of it this way – someone is late for dinner. Do you think ‘I should give him a chance’ – no, you just get a bit annoyed or brush it off or file it as information. You deal with these minor things. Someone is secretive about their plans – do you think ‘give them a chance?’ – yes perhaps you do, and you probably shouldn’t. The very language ‘give someone a chance’ is used I think when the other person has done something essentially unforgivable, which you will now try to paper over. Interestingly that person is not going to be grateful but will in fact resent being given another chance. They will likely repeat that behavior again – because hey you’re not the boss of me (this is what unhealthy looks like).
[and now I’ll back off and say – something about your comment struck me, made me defensive. I don’t know why. I wonder if a lot of us here are actually looking to be accepting of our lives. I want to accept my life as single. I don’t think theres a unicorn man out there, and I don’t think I’m ready. I don’t want any more pain and drama in my life. Giving a chance or fighting for a man – aint no one got time for that. Ah yes – perhaps this is where my defensiveness is coming from. Your comment seems to indicate that perhaps I’m single because I didn’t try enough. I should have given a chance, fought for my man – and perhaps thats what you think too. That you’re not enough, not lovable, did something wrong.]
Suki! I absolutely love your comment and agree with everything you have said!! I too am now at the point in my life where Fighting for a man or Giving him a chance just won’t do any more. I have often felt like askin myself Have I done enough, am I not good enough, but I have become stronger with every a**hole I met over the last 2 years, and now I am in the best place, happy being single, not settling for second best any more! If he wants me, he knows where I am.
Hi Kerstin,
Thank you for your comment. I felt it best to reply as I can see this discussion spiraling and it’s not on topic per se.
I really try to do my best in life. I’m an overdoer as well and even though I’ve learned to rein in the pleaser, I still expect a lot of myself but you know what? I cannot, never have been able to, nor will I ever be able to please everyone.
I do more of the happy clappy stuff, I’m criticised. I write about the core BR subjects, I’m criticised. I run Advice Wednesday which by extension of providing advice it means that the person has a problem, I’m criticised. That’s not a criticism of you incidentally Kerstin, more a giving you the bigger picture. Last week I suggested that the person with the guy on Plenty of Fish figure out her feelings and sort out the issues before moving in. The week before that, I suggested that it wasn’t wise to proceed with a man who was already married to two women at the same time. What would you have told her?
I always think it’s crying shame when I occasionally get a message/comment that basically boils down to, You’re an angry black woman who hates men and wants everyone to end their relationships and be alone while you are in your own relationship.
Am I failing somewhere? Am I dropping balls? Is this all a waste? Ack, who knows.
What I do know is that Baggage Reclaim isn’t and has never been about what you say it is. I help people understand why they’re in an unhealthy relationship, why they’re struggling with themselves or an aspect of a relationship, or how to navigate their way to a healthier relationship. I write for both men and women and have almost as many male readers as I do women. It’s also not just about straight relationships and I have a lot of gay readers also.
Stay or go, I help them to empower themselves to choose from a more conscious place. I’ve written plenty about chances, working at your relationship and so much more plus there’s the podcast, and that’s before I even get to courses, books, workshops etc.
I’m sorry that you feel as you do Kerstin. Please, stay with whoever you want to! You don’t need me to say that to you though. It feels as if you want to be with [whoever you feel I’m critical of] and it’s like, erm, you can be with him! What’s stopping you?
I am far from perfect (and my husband isn’t either nor are any other men or women in the world) so if what you’ve taken from this is that your partner has to be, BR is not hitting the spot for you.
Criticism tends to speak to you where you are already self-critical. For ten years I’ve written BR and I’ve gradually grown into my voice and owning who I am and what I do. I’ve just come back from taking time out because I needed a breather and to re-evaluate and your comment reminds me sure, I work very hard but I’m not everyone’s cup of tea.
I will endeavour to do better but I accept that you or others may not like it or that you will choose to see/hear something different even then, and that is OK.
Take care.
Natalie,
What you do is SO VALUABLE! You have helped me navigate some of my toughest days on earth. I thank you from the bottom of my heart for having BR. I have come here for solace.
You will never please everyone. Ask Obama. Just keep doing what feels right to you. I know from reading these pages you have some people who LOVE you and what you do.
Take your lead from people who thank you when you have written something that very day that brings them comfort with something they were struggling with.
THANK YOU for being here for me it is made all the difference. I would ask that you do another trip to New York so that I can see you and meet my dear new online friend Say Something.
Big hug
MJ
Thank you to Natalie from me too for turning things around. I am critical and questioning of things for my job and don’t blindly follow anyone or anything, but from turning to this site so much, I don’t think we are encouraged at all to be alone and walk away easily from relationships. It’s the opposite – I learn as I know others do that we will not get the relationship we want if we’re hanging on for uncommitted people. Others have put it better on this thread.
But I think it’s worth adding that this site by and large unites people who relate to ‘Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl’, hence a lot of it being about clearing out the crap – baggage! – in order to move on with our lives. In no way is there any kind of default position of leaving or being alone. It’s just that the starting point for most is like Natalie’s, of losing your dignity and values in barely-there or toxic relationships – and her astounding success was in finding so many others going through the same BS and in analysing it all so thoroughly.
I’m seriously impressed. Would I have moved from the wasteland I was in with Mr Unavailable(s) in my life, to this lush, giving, independent life I’m living now, without this site? I don’t want to be single for ever and sometimes stress about it, and miss a certain someone, but still this is one of the happiest times in my life and I’m grateful every day. Not only this, but sometimes I forget how lonely and unloved and angry I used to feel all the time, and now I’m fine. I think it’s ridiculous when people advocate being single or in a relationship – my friends are both and I respect them all.
🙂 MJ
To add,
I may not agree with every bit of advice, or everyone’s comments, but I more than appreciate the insight. BR has provided me with support I don’t receive anywhere else.
Say Something,
Sharing your experience has helped me so much. Lol. Just to know someone else understood helped me so much. You have helped me feel safe going on trips. I have sat in airports and written you for support.
BR has been important in my recovery. I just read Danis heart breaking story about the man she thought she knew. He was with her and had a dating profile. That is my ex. Engaged and online looking.
I will never understand how people can lead such double lives. No emotion at all. It does little good to rehash it all.
I just had a dinner party at my house. Part of my plan for moving on. Meeting new people and trying new things. The summer is about to start. I am hopeful.
MJ
I’m sort of angry I didn’t find your site a year ago. It would have saved me a lot of time and heartache. It was exactly the perspective I needed.
Mary Jane, I couldn’t have said it better thanxxx
Natalie, your blog and the readers’ comments saved me from the deepest despair in the first year post breakup in early 2014. I still come back almost daily to read and read to keep my self-esteem healthy and keep healing my confidence.
I want to say thank you again and again. In the last 2,5 years I have grown from a validation seeking, low self-esteem teenager to finally a grown up woman and an adult. And I am 38.
I believe we interpret your advice according to the level of awareness and maturity at the present moment. I was fighting and questioning your advice a lot in the first 6 months or so. It was very hard to take a look at yourself and accept and understand what you are doing and why you are doing it. Very hard.
There is no such a thing as fighting for a relationship. There is working on a relationship that has difficulties. Meaning both parties recognize there are problems and they are willing to solve them. That could be called “fighting” I guess, but it does take two to work it out.
I have still been single for 2,5 years, which is a record for me! I feel, like Suki said, I might just stay single. I am ready for a relationship, but I do not know how people meet anymore. I leave it up to the fate while living my life. Pursuing my hobbies, interests, meeting new people. I feel I am finally open to a new relationship, but sadly, in the last couple years, I have met potential dates or one-two date guys who exhibited red flags and broke my boundaries from the start. Thank you, Natalie, for all the insight. If not for your blog, I would have been repeating my mistakes over and over again. I lived on it several times a day, daily in the first year. I learned so much.
Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Sofia.
I have been reading here for just a short time but the information I have gotten from this site is amazing. It is NOT about bashing men at all. It’s about devaluing ourselves for a man, parent, sibling, friend, acquaintance. Some of us have that hard coded in us because of horrific childhoods that underlined each and every day how little we mattered and how great a burden we were. My mother made that clear from birth (I was adopted) and though I have very few memories of my childhood that prevailing message came through loud and clear.
There is no one worth your self destruction. It’s not always catastrophic and dramatic. Sometimes it’s little slices until there’s very little left. When you’ve been raised to hide/lie about who you really are because that was not ok you are used to this. In fact it’s easier because you’ve been given a template. You need to conform to this and be like this and respond like this and think like this to exist in THIS home. So you hide away. Sometimes so well that you can’t even find yourself.
I made a disastrous choice with an EUM for over 7 years. This piece of work lied to me about his military service (bounced from basic training after 4 months yet he would pull my heartstrings with tales of drama when he was a Navy seal). I actually heard him supposedly throwing up while he “recalled” his horrors. Problem with all that was I actually did date a Navy Seal for a time and he, and his buddies, had no PTSD. They lived for that stuff and reveled in it. He also recounted how he would bust people that had their patches wrong because they were fakers. Yeah, probably happened to him when he was masquerading.
What a loser!!! Yet, I kept believing and making excuses. He was sooooooo sincere and seemed so caring, but was he really? Nope. His idea of a conversation was he would talk about “him him him” then take a breather so I could talk about “him him him” Notice who was missing? Yep. Dear God. My mother all over again without the soupcon of psychopathy she had going on too.
Found out he was (shocked I tell you) stringing more than me along and dumped his ass with a short text then blocked. NEVER AGAIN. What a complete and total waste of space. We sell ourselves short (men AND women) and this site addresses those of us that do that to a fault and our own detriment. Hardly bashing anyone but giving us collective support and validation. FINALLY.
Wow, Isabella. Yes. EXACTLY.
Your words delivered a one-two punch of distilled truth. Made me stagger.
On the subject of the blog: I apologize for diverting.
If you ever, ever hear the phrase, ” I am busy,” immediately walk away.
NO man is busy for you if he has your heart and life in his interests.
No man.
Even the busiest man will find time for you and keep you updated to when he can see you. He will try his very best to see you.
Business is not an excuse. It’s a temporary plug-in for his time to search for someone “better.”
Never take “busy” from a man. BS.
Ah, the “I’m so busy” excuse. I didn’t find out until I had got some distance and some perspective that the man I was involved with – who had begged me to stay with him and told me he was so in love with me – really was that busy. It was not an excuse at all. Although it was rather unfortunate that what kept him so genuinely busy was sleeping with numerous other women whilst living with his “ex” girlfriend who was not actually an ex. I spent so long making excuses, trying to be kinder, better, more forgiving, more understanding, more enlightened, and less like his previous partners. My therapist at the time told me what a special man he was, and that I would have to let go of the conventions if I wanted to be with him. I paid her £125 for an hour and half’s therapy, once a fortnight. Natalie’s blog said that, based on ten out of ten red flags, he was an asshole and I needed to walk away. I didn’t pay Natalie anything at all. But the advice I had from her, and still read avidly two years on from that madness, was priceless. Thanks to her, I came out of it alive, having left behind my naivety and my belief that there is good in everyone. I don’t miss either of those things. And I certainly don’t miss him – I’m not really even angry about it anymore. I can honestly say that I will never be too busy to read what Natalie shares with us all. So thank you – to Natalie, and to all the people who’ve posted here over the three years I’ve been reading – so much good sense, wisdom, honesty, courage and hope for the future and for better, healthier and happier relationships with ourselves and with others. I’m more grateful than I can say.
Sofia! SO true! I have met a few guys in the last 2 years, and I wish I had taken your advice to walk awaythen, when the phrase ‘I am busy’ came up,it would have saved many tears. They were always online, but to busy to even send a quick message to say Thinking of you..which takes less than a second. I was never important enough to make time for. Never again. I am staying single indefinitely and I love it.
I should have realized something when he removed the “green dot” in gchat so I wouldn’t know when he was online, lol. The dude works in computers and sits there and trys to tell me he has no idea why he shows as offline. Yeah, if you find this comment, dude, I wasn’t fooled and never believed you. You are a freaking software developer.
^^^^^^^^ I am laughing out loud. Not only are they EU, they have the nerve to speak to us as though we’re dim? Move along, Mr. Smartypants… I’d love to see a blog post about mansplaining. I am convinced it’s another red flag of disrespect and a toxic behavior that can significantly contribute to us getting away from trusting our own thoughts/opinions/views.
To be honest I think now a days most guys are just not really that into relationships to begin with. They often tell themselves “when I meet the right girl I will”…that’s the same lie that a lazy person would say “if I win the lottery I will…” or “if I am smarter/fitter/better I will…”…it’s just an excuse as no woman is that special to motivate a lazy ass man to grow up and treat woman properly…
People who are looking for that “dream boat” often are just hiding the fact that they are commitment phobic who never wants to commit to a healthy relationship.
I also felt with the ex-EUM that there was a lot of ‘busyness’ – mostly the types that are ‘too busy’ are busy not only with work, but also with other people, their neuroses, their illnesses, etc. And I think they put you in that subtle position of having to compete – you compete with the other women, with hobbies, with their work and on it goes. It also devalues YOUR work – I mean he’s not a CEO or something, and in fact the EUM and I were at the same stage of our careers. Those cries of busyness are telling you ‘you’re not that important, run along little girl and let me deal with my super important career’. I think it has nothing to do with actual time, its them being EU, and also controlling you and keeping you on the back foot.
It’s incredibly sad to be in a relationship like this and then when it gets down to it, they don’t have the guts to end it but you have to pull up your boot straps and end it yourself. All the excuses, all the time apart was just his exit plans and his hope that I would eventually “get it” and move on. How demoralizing yes! I am stuck in my sorrow while he gleefully moves on. My tears have not turned off. I do not want my son seeing me all depressed and I tend to just vent and cry when he’s not around so I can try to clear my system. It can’t be good to hold all this in. I hope tomorrow gets better.
Jody- It hurts now, and it will for awhile, and then one day you will realize you didn’t think about him all day. Or for a few days. Then a week, then a month. It took me 18 months to get over my first narcissist.
And then found another one, but that’s another story.
You need to vent, it’s healthy to talk about it when you need to.
I am still heartbroken that, at the time I was with narcissist #1, my son was 3, & after I left & went no contact, my son asked why we weren’t friends with him anymore. I said ‘I don’t know, honey’ and my little 3 year old said “I know why, mommy. Because he made you cry a lot and friends don’t do that’. And a year later something must have reminded him of the guy, because he randomly said ‘If I see him again I’m going to tell him to never make my mommy cry again’.
Its well
@jane Wow! So wild – so similar! I was married for 18 years, the last 4 of which were the most brutal and cruel suffering at hands of someone I loved fully and trusted with my very life. What he did was beyond what anyone could ever have imagined. Yep, after divorcing I met Mr. I’m SOOO Busy. And omg the fact that I could experience what it felt like to have a most wonderous magical time feeling loved, cared for, respected without something horrible waiting around the corner to blindside me. Whether or not the love, care etc. was true I have no idea. All I know is my brain didn’t know the difference – felt just the same whether it was true or not and that was fine by me. Maybe those who have gone through experiences like ours would do better to cut ourselves some slack about getting into a breadcrumb relationship on our way to a healthy one. Getting a taste of something so delicious compared to the constant taste of despair, pain, confusion, and brokenness. Who could blame us! It’s like “holy schmoly! I forgot what this was like!” We thought we would never never feel so wonderful again – and then miracle of miracles we DO!! We can hardly blame ourselves for going through weeks of “Im busy” when we know that if we wait long enough we will have that amazing experience again. Sure as heck better than what we had and with no pain and torture either! I’ve noticed we all seem to view relationships like that and the people who were in them with us in a negative light. I’m wondering if sometimes its better to rather than devalue the relationship and painting Mr “Tarzan Busy” with a dark brush, it’s more helpful to see that it was an opportunity for us to experience a taste of possibility. That eventually the point comes when it occurs to us that once we know it can exist doesn’t mean it’s our final destination. A cool drink of water in the middle of a desert gave us ability to keep going – eventually the time comes when we know we can’t stay in that desert forever. We decide to press on to a place that’s not about just surviving. It’s about thriving.
Here’s to all of us and may every experience we have take us one step closer to our destination ??????????????????????
This really hit home for me! For the last seven months I have been dealing with an EUM who is the COO of our company. For the first few months we did a lot of flirting and talking and we got along so well. He was completely different from men I was normally attracted to. I had a thing for bad boys before him and he was clean cut, educated, and intelligent. He’s currently in school working on his doctorate in clinical psychology. He listens to me, gave me great advice, and he made me laugh. In my mind I was thinking he was the one. 3 months after all these feelings started to arise, I found out he was in a “situation” as he referred to it and told him I could no longer interact with him the same way because I knew it would hurt me. And so I tried to stay away. One day while at work he told me it was over and in my mind that meant he and I could be together. I started making plans with him only to have them cancelled, sending text only to receive no response, and he would come to work and try and smile and talk and ask if I wanted lunch as if nothing had happened. One day we finally went out and back to his house afterwards and he made me feel like a queen. He massaged my feet, we drunk wine, and sat up for hours talking like teenagers. It felt so great, I felt more alive than I had in a long time. That was over a month ago, haven’t had any real time together since then. And when I complain about it or bring it up, he always tells me how he really wishes he could offer me more now and how he doesn’t do it intentionally he’s just so busy. I call BS, when I tell my close friends they call BS. I’m also very busy, I’m in school, I work, and I have a child but I MAKE time for him because I want to and he doesn’t make time for me because he does not want to. I know this and sometimes still fall into this vicious cycle with him of forgiving him and trying to be understanding but I know in my heart it’ll never change, because he doesn’t want it to.
No matter what type of relationships you have, either work, love, friendship, whenever people starts to make excuses and “dangle a carrot in front of you”, leading you to believe that you will get something “someday”, RUN. I have never had one experience when people promise me something “someday” that actually turned out to be true.
Non-toxic, healthy and confident people will tell you the truth. People who think that they are “being nice”, “letting you down easy” are actually sick, conflict avoidance, toxic and selfish cowards who are too afraid to tell the truth. They twisted the truth and leave you to figure out the pieces. They don’t want you to be in their live but at the same time enjoy the ego boost and attention they get from you. These people are mentally not right and the further you get from them the better. It has nothing to do with your desirability, how good, loving, caring, deserving you are. You don’t need these sick people to prove your self worth, love yourself first and leave them. They are popping up everywhere so just beware of the signs and as soon as they show one “excuse”, start backing up and retrieve. People will show you who they are very quickly.
I am dealing with this right at this moment. After a year of being on the sidelines, I feel so pathetic. He had time for football on sundays, fixing cars, etc. He hasn’t talked to me for over a month, I finally got some distance & was getting over being sad, & tonight, this text-
Hey there. Sorry I haven’t talked to you but after I got back from vacation all hell broke loose, literally. Lol
How have you been?
How’s work going?
I do not like that I put myself in the position where a guy thinks he can disappear & reappear at will.
My heart is so heavy right now. And I’m angry & hurt. Don’t ‘lol’ me. It takes 5 seconds to send a text. I really am nothing to him.
I am trying so hard to remember that THIS GUY WILL NEVER VALUE ME, no matter what I say or do. My phone is old & doesn’t block numbers, so I’m ignoring it & have deleted the text.
I’m thankful for this website.
I just got the “it’s not you, it’s me” from a separated man whom I dated for 7 months. He was a wonderful man: funny, thoughtful, interesting, active..all the things. He said his time with me was great and listed all the things he loved and then said he had to work on his stuff and felt guilty that he couldn’t be 100% available to me (but would I entertain his call if he got his stuff together). I have stuck to NC since, but I’m have trouble not blaming myself (I should not have asked how the divorce was going (the answer was ex had been stalling since spring, so it hadn’t gone anywhere), I should not have asked him to introduce me to someone in his life, I should not have expressed disappointment that he “forgot” to put our trip on his work calendar and ended up unable to go). I am reading the 10 break-up boundaries over and over, as it does help some. Sigh.