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An ego trap that can cause us to spend time on people and things that would be better left alone, is wanting what we can’t have. When you were in your friends with benefits ‘arrangement’, you wanted him to be your boyfriend but he didn’t want to date. You then had a bonafide boyfriend for a few months but you had mixed feelings and ultimately didn’t want to be in a relationship with him, and then some time after the breakup where maybe the first ex suddenly thought something like, “Whoa! Wait up a second! Lucy isn’t jumping to my beat and she’s not going to make herself available to me if I tell her I’m not ready to date. Ooh, I don’t like this feeling of being out of control. What can I do? Oooh, I know–I’ll say that I’m ready to date”, and then dangled that at you, you decided that you don’t want him but that you now think that the man who you have some incompatibilities around core values with is “the love of [your] life”. Possibly feeling that this was a sure bet because he’d originally wanted things more than you had, he’s now decided that he doesn’t want to be in a relationship and is now offering you what you had been discontented with with the previous ex.
This situation is a mess and the truth is, not one of you knows what you really want and that ambivalence is playing out through this friends with benefits game of musical chairs.
Lucy, you were not over your ex when you met your now ex c0-worker and boyfriend. He probably offered sweet respite from waiting around for the person you really wanted to step up and want you for more than just sex and ‘friendship’. You talk about falling in love but you also talk of “mixed feelings”, feeling “rushed” and some “incompatibilities (core values)”. These are not small things and it sounds like you downplayed your concerns and being fast forwarded but it eventually felt too much. Even if you hadn’t gone from one involvement to another, it’s likely that you would have still felt uncomfortable because it didn’t feel as if you were going at a mutual pace and there was too much of a temptation to ignore your feelings and downplay your need for time because you were afraid of disappointing him. When you did finally explain how you felt and asked for time, he said that it would mean breaking up, if anything validating those niggling feelings.
I don’t know what “hugged etc” means but I think that you have picked up what appear to be mixed messages that may have given you the impression that he was more OK with things than he was. In reality, the same guy who told you that you couldn’t have time to decipher your feelings, is the same guy that would feel on some level that he could turn the tables on you now, conveniently offering you what his predecessor did. Of course now that he doesn’t want a relationship, you’re now convinced that he’s the love of your life. I think that if you look at this sequence of events and hand on heart ask you if this man is truly the love of your life or more emblematic of a fear of being left empty-handed and feeling that something is more valuable when it’s not on offer or you’re in danger of losing it, I think you might be in the latter camp.
When you have a fear of committing to what you want and need, it’s easy to hide behind someone else’s ambivalence. You need get honest with you about what you need and want and you need to take ownership of it. You have been and are still prepared to settle for less. You’re now willing to overlook what amounts to significant incompatibilities–believe me, they are if it’s core values–to call this man the “love of your life”. This is cracker in the desert after six months territory–of course the guy who you had a four-month intense relationship with looks like the love of your life in comparison to languishing in a casual sex arrangement that you call ‘friendship’ to make you feel better about waiting for somebody to decide to date you.
If you’re serious about being in a serious relationship, accept no substitutes. If you do, it’s a block to being open for a mutually fulfilling available relationship.
Sex isn’t backdoor entry (excuse the pun) to a relationship. If you want something different, it means that it’s not mutual, which means that it’s time to declare yourself out.
Have an honest conversation with you about your fear of commitment and its origins. Them keeping their options open reflects you keeping your options open. What are you afraid is going to happen? That you’re going to be trapped? That you will get hurt? That you will lose your independence or something else? Also, who taught you to wait around and value sporadic attention? What have you been through that has given you the impression that you’re not worthy of stepping up for the type of relationship you really want? Your answers tell you about what’s really going on here.
As for what to do about him? It sounds like you need time out from both of your exes. No Contact until you’re in a place where you can take care of you in and out of your relationships. It’s not that either of them are ‘bad’ people; you don’t have healthy boundaries with either party and you need to take time to get over both of them so that the next time you choose to be in a relationship, you will do some from a place of love, care, trust and respect. You will be OK but stop letting these guys make your choices for you. Choose you.
Have you been caught out by wanting what you can’t have? Have you tried to keep your options open or felt confused about being in a new relationship after being in a casual relationship?
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Yes, what strikes me about the original post is that the distance between her and the individual guys remains the same – no matter who’s being the pursuer/distancer – and no meaningful contact is made. This is safe for someone who’s yet to heal and make themselves emotionally available; all the more so since it can be blamed on them.
One thing I used to observe in myself was that when I’d come out of a long term relationship, aware I needed space and time to learn from it and heal – I’d get a crush on someone who was either a total ****artist or completely unavailable, whilst at least having the good sense not to try to do anything about it. It felt like that part of me was being kept occupied whilst I did the serious, deep business of healing. And, of course, the crush would fade away in time. Their ‘unsuitability’ was a reflection of my own.
My advice to the OP is to take time out to learn to love herself, in which case the offer of ‘friends with benefits’ and half-relationships will totally lose their appeal.
The predicament of the OP really resonated with me – I’ve been in a similar position myself, recently – and TBH, I chose to take some time out away from it all. I’ve met people who wanted to start something with me and I’ve just been honest and said I’m not emotionally available at present. Sure, I don’t expect them to hang around, but I need time out to process what happened and if, in the future, our paths cross again, then hopefully I will be in a place to make better decisions and choices. Nat’s advice is spot on, Lucy – time to distance yourself from BOTH, as neither are giving you want you are looking for.
For years I believed I attracted losers and EUMs (and granted, many of them genuinely were), but it wasn’t until I clocked onto Natalie’s genius that I began to realise that I was also standing in the way of my own happiness by choosing to entertain these guys and ‘situationships’ – knowing they’d never make me happy or blossom into the loving relationship I desired.
When you come from a place where you don’t really know what “good” looks like in terms of relationships, there is a tendency to believe that love must be like it is on the TV or in your fantasies, or you confuse that initial period of lust/sexual chemistry as a sign that he’s The One, all the while failing to see the red flags that are appearing all around you.
My advice to OP: take some time for yourself, get to know who you are and feel comfortable with who you are. Take a good long break from dating or FWBs, and cultivate love for yourself. Your willingness to subsist on crumbs from your ex FWB, suggests that you have some self-esteem issues to work through. Until you address them, you will be perpetually caught in this cycle of crap. Time to break free!
Good luck!
Dear Natalie,
This blog post couldn’t have been more timely. It was as if you read my mind and picked the perfect topic to respond to in order to help me with my dilemma. My mother almost died a month ago and the stress sent me into the arms and bed of a shady man who has been pursuing me for almost three years (while I did NC from my narcissist live-in). I turned to him knowing what he was and what he wasn’t, had some stellar sex, got through my mom’s near-death, and then emerged last weekend feeling…well, empty.
I found myself probing the guy for his ideas on a relationship, which consist of “well, gee, I am kinda not ready and really like to keep it casual.” Two months ago I said about the same thing. And it was ok to simply be ok. But last weekend I realized I want more and I can’t start my old pattern of grabbing junk food and expecting to make a healthy and nutritious meal out of it. This relationship is so casual that it almost doesn’t qualify as a relationship but I did have two talks with him in a kind of exploratory way during which I said, “I do want the whole package and I am healed up enough to risk love again.” I heard me say these things and noted that–though I am still a bit tender around the scar tissue–I do feel largely healed up and ready to move on.
Yet all week I have been clinging to the junk food. And when I read: “When you have a fear of committing to what you want and need, it’s easy to hide behind someone else’s ambivalence….You’re now willing to overlook what amounts to significant incompatibilities…Sex isn’t backdoor entry (excuse the pun) to a relationship.”
I realized that I am clinging to that small pathetic hope that I can make sex into love. But what I am REALLY doing is using ambivalence (mine and his) to stay out of the fray. Relationships take time and energy and I am just getting them both back. I am childhood-trained to accept ambivalence and drip-feeding as a form of love. THE form of love. Your wise words helped me to face that I have to get back on the road to love and pick up my backpack of baggage and keep on. I do want true and mutual love, and, one day at a time, I will keep walking toward it.
Thank you, Natalie, and thank you all the people who share. We are getting there!
Real advice here
Stop
Neither of these people are right for you, too many doubts, insecurities, guesswork, mixed messages and manipulations
I would firmly suggest timeout, stop leaping from bed to bed, man to man, in fear of being alone
Be alone, discover who you are and what you want then start to meet men in a friendship environment and be patient, real relationships will start from there
Ash,
Okay. Your response has been bothering me since I read it.
First off, I don’t think anyone is offering fake advice here, how yours is superior, I do not know.
“…stop leaping from man to man, bed to bed, in fear of being alone”
Your statement is outrageous. Lucy was trusting enough to share information regarding two sexual partners she cared about and said nothing about the fear of being alone.
I’m going to ask that you stop shaming women asking for advice.
I don’t see that what Ash said was so bad – I didn’t have your reaction to it at all. Maybe it wasn’t delivered in a PC enough style but hey. Of course the reader isn’t *saying* anything about fear of being alone but that’s the subconscious belief driving a lot of codependent behaviour which drives women from man to man. The fact remains she DOES need to stop going between these two men and take some time away from dating to do some self-development.
Claire,
Often those who say one is offended because they are too politically correct, are in denial about the progression of mindfulness (or the necessity of it).
The subconscious is driven by many things. To generalize in any way that women who seek out relations have a subconscious drive to aviod being alone is outdated and I imagine incorrect.
Lucy’s question was if she should not engage with a person she has strong feelings for. Perhaps we can agree that if she wants a stable committed relationship, yes, she should move on and take time for herself.
Jennifer, I see what you mean and thank you once more for getting me so well. But i think Claire is right here – Ash didn’t mean to be harsh, she sounds more like harsh on the actual situation. The three of you advice the same thing – to take time off rather than clinging onto something unhealthy and potentially painful (actually, already painful if I recall how I felt when we had “the talk”). And even if at times I still miss him, I think it’s better than pursuing him and becoming dependent on anything he decides about me. If it’s healthy, it works. I sure made mistakes and acknowledge then, but if he thinks there’s no point in starting over, then bye bye, it’s been a pleasure!
Lucy,
Maybe I can help with this one. (I just came out of a similar situation.) I had known a guy from uni for a couple of years. We became pretty good friends because we had long class hours together, but he had a girlfriend so I was always aware to have respectful boundaries for their sake.
Anyhow, he and the gf broke up and he and I started hanging out a bit. I started to like like him. He just wanted friendship and casual sex (and was upfront about it thank God). I was disappointed and stressed and told him no. He was seeing a few other women; I was so confused. (And he shows all signs of being an Unavailble man.) Anyhow, he was a decent friend to me, which made it all the more confusing. But anyhow, I cut contact for a few months. For me. I realized I didn’t owe him an explanation (I was not victimizing him by walking away, but I was victimizing myself by hanging around too much). So I focused on some career and personal things; I lost ALL romantic feelings for him, yet had some friendship vibes. I reached out to him to ask what school he’s going to eventually (we’re in the same career). He kind of left me hanging (which is fine); again no romantic feelings. Maybe we’ll have coffee as friends one day and gab it out about our mutual interests but we do not share the same core values and I will never date him and am not attracted to him like that and never will be again. In short, I’m over it. Just light friendship (with no other expectations).
If you need space, tell him that and if he really is your friend, he will understand and respect you (best kind of people to hang around are ones who know, love and respect personal boundaries — their own and others), if he acts not good about your needs, then you don’t need him. At all.
Hope this helps!!
Jennifer xx
Thank you, Jennifer! Hey I think you were so right to do what you did. I don’t think that looking for casual sex and seeing a few women at the same time was exactly healthy for you to stock with him. You deserve way more in any case, but great not to have developed romantic feelings for what would have surely been a pain-giver in the long term!
Thank you sooo much for your help also 🙂 xx
I have been reading this website for a longtime and learned a lot about being EU which I didn’t even know I was. Because of my internal apprehension I continued choosing the same EU men. It is a vicious cycle to be in. I’m not a young woman anymore and very much would like to have that special person in my life but the fear is so real for me. I know I have a lot to work on but the thought of it all overwhelms me. I had been in therapy for years and still I’m at the place if not worse. So much time goes by and is wasted on meaningless situations that don’t amount to much. It’s a lonely existence!
I feel the exact same way. I feel that any failed attempts at a meaningful relationship are a waste of time. I’ve done the best I can to learn the “lessons” from each relationship. But, in October of last year, I met a man that “ghosted” me about a month ago. I have since learned that he’s somewhere between a narcissist and a sociopath. Our entire “relationship” or whatever it was, was non-existent. All lies. I think the only truths he told could be counted on my fingers. I had no proof otherwise. He approached me when we met, so I didn’t already know anything about him. Unfortunately, we live in the same town. Our houses are mere miles apart. Makes NC difficult. Ten months of wasted time for me. All his behavior did was validate the negative, untrusting beliefs I’ve always had about men. I thought he was different. At this point, I’m out. Done. I have a shell to live in to keep me sane. I don’t have what it would take to create anything healthy and mutually satisfying. I have no expectations or goals for any kind of relationship with a man whatsoever. Oh, and let me mention that there was no sex had. We were “waiting.” Well, he was having whomever he wanted, and I did without. Again, an after the fact discovery. It was all a scam, at my emotional expense. Done.
I hear you. Learning to spot users and not be prey for them.
Hi, Michelle. You are exasperated. You’ve had nothing but a parade of unsuitable partners come your way. You’ve decided that you don’t know the *secret* and don’t “ have what it would take to create anything healthy and mutually satisfying”.
Thoughts are very powerful things. You MUST be careful what you feed your mind because your thoughts create your reality.
Do you sit passively on the sidelines and wait for the man to treat you like you want to be treated? I think when we have our own back, it should only take ONE time of being disrespected by our romantic interest for us to call it a day, it is OVER. In my involvement with an ACMM, I saw early on that he seemed to like hot/cold game playing. It surprised me because I’d never dealt with such behavior. If I’d had my own back, I would have called it OVER after the FIRST show of disrespect for my feelings from him… instead of being so hungry for attachment that I settled for crumbs.
He approached you and you seem to think it is up to him to control where the relationship goes. Do you feel that way about everything? If you go to a restaurant for a meal, would you watch the waiter attend to everyone else, even those who came in after you, and never come to your table to wait on you? Or would something in you say “Hey, I’m not going to take this! I AM LEAVING!”.
If you THINK there are no good men in the world, then that is what your reality will be.
You will have to actively enforce your boundaries when you are with a man. Enforcing boundaries means not accepting poor behavior, calling the end of things when he does something disrespectful, saying NO and letting him go. So many of us “play” at relationships. We want him to work to “win” us, so we get mad, he doles out some small attention, we let them back into our hearts, and he treats us badly again. And then we blame him for our heartbreak.
I get it. I am older, my hair is thinning. Odds are a Denzel Washington type is not looking for me. But a nice man who is seeking a nice woman would be very happy with me, I think. I will evaluate each man I meet in the future on his own behavior toward me. I will not ask him to right the wrongs of my past, that is not his job, nor is it my job to not be like his ex. I am me, and I am secure that I have something good on offer. “Player behavior” shows up early on – fast forwarding and future faking then the inevitable withdrawal of attention. I will not late night text anyone and will not respond to late night texts. I am looking for someone who excites my brain a lot, my eyes a bit, who shows interest in spending time together, and who leaves me feeling like I want to be around him some more. The internal work that BR instigated made me realize what to look for and what to stay away from.
I am no longer looking for a Prince Charming to rescue me from a lonely existence.
I am exasperated. Although I’m a woman of faith, I now cannot convince myself to believe that someone (a human unknown to me) exists that would even begin to bring anything of true value to my life in the form of a meaningful relationship. My belief is highly of the thought that “perhaps it’s not in the Lord’s will” for me. Yes, I used to think there was a secret. But no. My experience with this last man showed me that. I thought I had my back. But when my perception of what was true never existed, it’s kind of difficult to adjust one’s thinking to fit the situation. I now know that when my expectations grew, he couldn’t keep up the act any more and bailed. He used my faith against me,.. If that makes sense. He’s very versed in the bible and is a good actor… He’s even part of a public ministry. That’s scary. We prayed together and for each other. No sex, remember? Everything he told me was consistent and plausible. Looking back, I could have knit picked him, but I don’t expect perfection from a human, as I certainly am not perfect. But I honestly don’t think I’ve ever seen, known, or believed in, any man that turned out to truly be a “good” one. And I now question the ones that “appear” to be. Ever since this last relationship, and all the truth has come out, I have dropped all beliefs that I have the ability to have true discernment about anyone. I have stopped talking about anything with regards to myself with anyone, including my sisters, friends, and family. The only exceptions I make are when it’s anonymous or they are bound legally to secrecy (like a counselor or therapist) as they are not allowed to disclose information about me without repercussions.
I used to be a hope filled person, a dreamer. But I’ve turned into an extreme realist over the past 6 or 7 years, And that is this: at the very least, all humans will make mistakes, including myself. With that knowledge alone, and my inability to discern, I have locked all the doors of hopes and dreams and I live by the thought of “protect myself.” At the end of the day, besides the good Lord, nobody else will. Despite all prayer efforts for years, on my part for mutually fulfilling and healthy relationships, the Lord’s answer to me may be “no.” There may be humans that truly love me. I just don’t know who that is right now. The last thing I need is to live in denial that people won’t hurt me. That’s a whole lot safer than to be blind sided again, or to be struck by a painful reality check. Funny how reality checks are never good ones….I know it’s not healthy, per se. But, what realistic choice do I have? I question everything and everyone. By default, we all self- preserve. It’s a survival mechanism. We are not all, by the time we are adults, built equipped to love or be loved. It’s sad, but I don’t cry about it any more. Reality. That’s what’s left at the end of the day. Sorry to sound like a downer.. ;( But the good news for everyone reading this, is that we all have different realities! 🙂
You say you have an inability to discern, that you have relied on “perception”. Too often we are so eager to believe we have found “the one” that we fall for actors. We overinflate the significance of very small actions……for example…..we share a health scare with someone, he lends a sympathetic ear, and we think he’s ready to commit. If he actually drives us to the hospital we are in love. We are bowled over by a small niceness that he extended….for example, pulling out a chair or holding a door open or texting on our birthday.
I’m no Pollyanna. Self-preservation is a good thing. I too am very wary about what men really have to offer me. But now that I have an understanding that there are *whys* behind my chasing the wrong things, I feel better able to navigate relationship waters. I have been reading BR since 2012, and I would say the lessons took 3 years to really root themselves in me.
About a year ago, at a New Year’s Eve event, I was near the bandstand listening to music and met an interesting fellow …conversation was sparkling, laughter flowed, we did the cell phone call each other to exchange numbers right there at the venue, but then he left me to “return to his table”, he said. It was then that it struck me that he was probably with someone else at that event. At 3AM he texted me “hope you got home safe”. I did not respond, because I am no longer interested in crumbs. If he likes me so much, and is available for more, then he should contact me during daylight hours. He never contacted me again. He was putting out feelers, you see, seeing if I would engage with him late at night, on the basis of one good conversation.
You being a religious woman saw this man’s knowledge of scripture as an indicator of good character. He knew you would think that way…..you certainly would not be impressed by his knowledge of rap lyrics, would you. There was some part of you that wanted to believe you had found that “good man”.
Perhaps you were completely fooled by this man, I don’t know the events. Only you can answer whether, on your part, there was some denial of some kind of evidence of deceit somewhere along the line.
It’s difficult to explain. But, yes, when I confronted him about his behavior on Facebook that I found to be odd, he gave me lame excuses that I refused to believe. Then he cut me off completely. Looking back, I think he thought I knew more about him than I really did with regards to his “odd” behavior. I had no clue. Now, after discussing things with several of his exes and some other discoveries I had when I went digging, I see what he is. I’ve done a lot of reading. He fits the mold and description of narcissists, sociopaths, etc, and the way they behave in relationships. It was both shocking and eye opening. They are very good at fooling people. For example, his ex wife thought she had the most wonderful marriage for 5 straight years. Somehow, there was a falling out between them and then discovery of his real behavior. He was sleeping with several women on a chronic basis. Nobody knew of the other ones, and one of the women had no idea he was married… He had married out of state, and she was none the wiser. His family covers for him. His “circle” he has created with the cover of religion wouldn’t believe the truth, or he would be removed from his position. He was very careful to not label his exes as “crazy” to me… With the exception of the ex wife… whom he said he was told by a Dr that she was bipolar. He didn’t run them down. When the exe’s and I exchanged experiences, mine was almost completely different from theirs. But I suspect had he and I lived together or been married, he couldn’t have pulled it off. I never saw or experienced any violence or anger. I never gave him money, and he never asked for any. He did not have sex with me. He declared frequently to be exhausted because of working 2-3 jobs, I never thought anything about it because he claimed to have debts that needed to be paid, stating his goal was to have them done by October. Nothing was amiss. But again, I wasn’t married to him, nor did I check up on him…. I really shouldn’t have to. So when he cut me off, I just thought it was typical of what I deemed he was when he did that…..emotionally unavailable. Ha. It would have stopped there, but the exe’s came forward and filled me in. Now, armed with the knowledge of the truth about him, I can look back and see things….. Although he worked two jobs, he spent a great deal of time “working” with other women. When he was at church, on a short mission project, men’s retreat, or mandatory meeting, I’m sure he was entertaining his other members of his herum. He placated me to keep me from suspecting anything. As far as the sex, well even though he started the relationship with the “let’s wait until we have feelings” ploy, I threw a kink in his plan by not only agreeing with that, but asking for proof of a clean STD screening. So, instead of bailing at that time, for whatever reason, he went along… Probably to save his “good” reputation with me just in case he needed me later. But, as feelings progressed within me, and I gave him my clean screening, he was never “ready” for sex. Ok. Well, I can respect that. Now I know that he denied me because he either couldn’t or wouldn’t show me that he was clean. It was a power struggle for him that I didn’t know existed. It angered him that I would put such a standard or barrier up in the beginning, which prevented him from getting what he wanted ultimately, despite his words. Why did things go on for so long? Because it was a game to him, and he knew it. He found joy in me believing what he said, and thinking he was a good person…. He found it fun and intriguing. It was not his usual game, so I was a change and a challenge. He was convinced that withholding sex would punish me, and I just thought it was respect. Now knowing that he only did that to me because he got it elsewhere, is an insult because of his motive. Thank the good Lord he didn’t get any from me, I would be in a worse position now. It’s more than a little difficult to understand for other people who don’t know how narcissistic, sociopathic men can be. They don’t care about anything but getting what they want,… Even if it’s just a fun game to watch women believe them in their lies. It’s about control. That’s all. I have been grieving the loss of someone who didn’t exist…. Who can’t be hurt,… I have nothing whatsoever to hold on to. Nothing was genuine, as far as I’m concerned. It was all fabricated for his entertainment. I highly encourage both men and women to read up on this type of person. I realize they are on the extreme end of the dating pool, but I am unable to determine what is up versus down at this time. Recovery and healing after dealing with this type of person is more than difficult. When I “miss” him,… I have to tell myself that there’s nothing to miss. When I think of times we shared or plans we had,… I have to tell myself they were never true or ever going to happen and he knew it. I can’t express any anger or upset behavior toward him, as he doesn’t have the ability to empathize, feel guilty, or be ashamed. I have no doubt that he may use anything that appears “crazy” to his advantage in his embellished stories about me. I have no outlet. I’m confused about what to do with this experience. So, as far as I’m concerned, everyone is fake until proven real. The other way around is too dangerous. So again, it was my perception of reality that I thought I was discerning,… Which wasn’t real. It’s mind blowing, disheartening, and a severe blow to one’s self esteem. My fear is that I’m going to run off anyone healthy to have as a partner because I will constantly question everything. I have even gone so far as to question what his exes have said because I never saw that behavior, or any proof of it. But the fact still remains that he is gone, and pretends that I don’t exist. That’s what I use to remind myself that he is pathological. At the very very least, he has shown his inability to follow through and give me what I want, deserve, or have been promised… regardless of whether he’s truly pathological or not.
I am so sorry, Michelle. It’s completely understandable that you feel and think the way you do. Someone like that completely rips apart your world, your sense of safety and your ability to trust yourself or anyone else.
Please be patient and compassionate with yourself.
I think I understand where you are, and have felt/thought as you described. For me it was deep despair. My experience was that when I allowed myself to truly feel the despair and not try and make it go away or shame myself for it, it lessened and changed into other emotions.
Please take good care of yourself. Sending you love and peace.
Thank you so much. Your kind words are appreciated. I have kicked myself repeatedly for loving such a person. It’s embarrassing really. I feel like the “joke” was on me. After all, he had nothing to lose, and I am without recourse because he can’t empathize or hurt. Sending you love and peace as well.
I also did lots of kicking myself – how could I be so stupid, etc.. It’s hard sometimes to be compassionate with ourselves. You deserve mercy and compassion. You chose to extend trust and he chose to betray that trust. He chose to betray you in many ways, of course all the while pretending to be above board. Thinking the joke’s on you is likely feeding your hurt. It sounds as if you are punishing and judging yourself for not being able to spot it.
You don’t think like a predator, of course you wouldn’t be able to see through it. You don’t deserve to be punished, it was HIS behavior. It’s his shame, not yours. He lost a lot, he’s not able to see it.
It will get better. You’re in survival mode right now and understandably so. Don’t know if you’re able to take some time off and just be..no commitments/obligations. That was helpful for me, the space to feel everything and not have to deal with anyone else until I was ready to. The freedom to feel everything and not worry about how it effects anyone else is very liberating.
You’re not alone.
You’re in my prayers.
Saw this today and thought of you…hope it helps. It’s part of a series.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/pathological-relationships/201208/living-the-gentle-life-part-v
Michelle,
Your comments weigh heavy on my heart. Finding out that someone was not at all who you believed is traumatic. Sometimes even when you think all is well and good, it’s not. And like you just experienced, you could NOT know. I never had anyone from his past to fill me in, so I really don’t know anything more than my own experience. You didn’t get sex. I never got ‘I love you’ because well, he was being respectful and not rushing things. Sometimes the most wonderful seeming thing just isn’t. Over two years later I am still questioning what happened and how I could not know that he never liked me. No more than he might like a pair of socks I guess. It is hard to trust. Yourself. Other people. Advice. The thoughts and feelings you describe- I know them. They are pain and confusion. And sadness for a ‘double loss’. No matter how smart, mindful, prepared, and careful you are, it can happen. Check out Sandra Brown and super traits. She is a good resource on pathological relationships. Healing can take time, but you have already identified the harm. Don’t give up! You had the strength to tell the story, and you can and will get past it. Slowly you will.
Michelle,
I am so very sorry for what you are going through. You articulate your feelings and thoughts so very well.
Please know that there is absolutely no way you could have known. Absolutely none. I truly believe that getting over a narcissistic relationship is like no other. I know you know what I mean.
I did not know that Narcissistic Personality Disorder even existed until the grief of my loss forced me to search and research and learn.
I learned so much from the relationship, from the grief and now I am very informed. Like Natalie says, “take the lesson and run.”
It is not your fault that this happened. Please take all the time you need to feel all that you feel. I promise you. I PROMISE you, that this too will pass and you won’t always feel this way.
I know that it really hurts and there is just no getting around greiving. The only way past it, is going through it.
Above all, be kind and loving and gentle….with yourself. You deserve it, we all do.
Wendy
Dear Elgie,
But a nice man who is seeking a nice woman would be very happy with me, I think. I will evaluate each man I meet in the future on his own behavior toward me. I will not ask him to right the wrongs of my past, that is not his job, nor is it my job to not be like his ex. I am me, and I am secure that I have something good on offer. “Player behavior” shows up early on – fast forwarding and future faking then the inevitable withdrawal of attention. I will not late night text anyone and will not respond to late night texts. I am looking for someone who excites my brain a lot, my eyes a bit, who shows interest in spending time together, and who leaves me feeling like I want to be around him some more. The internal work that BR instigated made me realize what to look for and what to stay away from.
I am no longer looking for a Prince Charming to rescue me from a lonely existence.”
I wanted to stand up and shout “YES”!!!! That was awesome, beautiful and brilliant.
Wow,
Wendy
Ah I feel for Lucy because this is a confusing situation, but clearly from the comments a pretty common one!
I had this situation happen to me a good few years ago. I’d just come out of a five year relationship about eight months before, so I was ready to get back out there, but not really ready emotionally (though I wasn’t aware of that at the time). However, the guy I ended up meeting could clearly read that subconsciously in me, and so we were the match made in heaven – the girl who didn’t really want to get close because she had been hurt and the guy who wanted something he could never have.
After a year of me keeping him at arms length, I ultimately finished it because I wasn’t 100% invested and it felt unfair. A little while after, I realised, hey, maybe I do want to commit properly to this guy now. And, after all, he’s been chasing me for that, it’s what he says he wants, so its a win-win, right?
WRONG. I told him how I felt, and surprise surprise, his feeling towards me started to cool. I told him I loved him, he said he wasn’t sure. After all that chasing and strength of feeling previously! And it wasn’t about him no longer wanting to put up with my fickle behaviour (I could have totally understood that). He genuinely didn’t have strong feelings for me when they were returned! He wasn’t a bad guy at all, and we tried to make it work, but the fact was, the jigsaw pieces didn’t fit anymore, because I was available now, and HE STILL WASN’T.
That really opened my eyes. I think sometimes we don’t have control over the emotional juncture we are at, but the fact is, an emotionally ready guy, who wanted something real would never have spent a year putting up with my flip flopping in the first place! (And the same goes for all us people who have been in his place in this situation.) That should have been my warning. He was okay with crumbs, because crumbs were all he wanted. And when I offered him the loaf – bye bye…
It’s was a good experience for me, I learned from it, and by the time I met my now (wonderful) partner, I’d been properly single and healing and happy for a good few years. i was READY. And so was he. And that’s why it works. It’s a way tha worked for me, to achieve a happy relationship, and it’s what Nat teaches us in all her posts: Get your jigsaw piece in the right (healthy, available) shape first, and then only healthy, available partners will fit you. X
Hi, Nickster. GREAT point you made here: That really opened my eyes. I think sometimes we don’t have control over the emotional juncture we are at, but the fact is, an emotionally ready guy, who wanted something real would never have spent a year putting up with my flip flopping in the first place!
When we are romantically disappointed, we want to cast the one who disappointed us as the bad guy. We fail to realize that it takes TWO to do the EU dance. Or maybe we just don’t want to accept our part in the events. We want to act like it was the other person who dupes us, but if you really examine the whole story, at some point you were fooling yourself. And the other person has his or her own baggage that made him/her a willing partner in the EU game.
Two EU people can even make it to the altar, and they can remain emotionally unavailable throughout their union. That union will probably devolve into one person blaming the other for why that marriage is unsatisfying.
“That should have been my warning. He was okay with crumbs, because crumbs were all he wanted. And when I offered him the loaf – bye bye…”
Nickster, YES! It’s something I know but refuse to see. This simple sentence has helped open my eyes big time. Thank you. I’m finally ready to end it with MM and start my journey to emotional availability and a more actualized sense of self worth.
Oh no, why do women even fool with a MM? It is a heart break waiting to happen. Even if they leave their spouse for you, they are likely to cheat on you at some point.
Being a MW and fooling around with a MM =fantasyland disaster. I got sucked in and enjoyed the attention and games. I fortunately ended the idiotic game before my core values and boundaries were crossed. I finally woke up when he asked for a Kiss To Dream on via Louis Armstrong.
I read the blog and all of the comments posted because I came on here searching for an answer on something very similar. I too have had my run of being attracted to and hurt in toxic relationships. I was surprised to learn that I was attracted to UA people because I was UA. Eyeopener. My dilemma at present: I’ve met a really nice guy who is steady, consistent, available, kind, easy going … and supposedly loves me. I’ve been alone for a long time. Independent. UA. I am trying not to bolt. I have stayed the course for two months now. I often feel I need my space, no chemistry, etc., and long for my bad boys and the chemistry I had with them. My question is this: by the way, I am therapist, lol, Is it right when you know what you want … cuz you’ve taken the time alone to discern it … but when you find it you freeze because of old habits … but you know if you want different results you have to trust the process and the reality of “good” in front of your face and give things time. My questions: Do you think chemistry will come with time as I give this “nice guy” a chance? Annette.
I don’t think chemistry comes “in time”. Chemistry is immediate. When hydrogen meets oxygen, it does not “take time” for those two chemicals to make water.
I think when “bad boy charisma” stops being appealing to you is when you will find chemistry with a “nice guy”. Right now for you, nice equals boring-but-he-won’t-hurt-me, boring-but-he-says-he-loves-me, boring-but-he’s-not-doing-bad-things-to-me.
This nice guy is a little quick to the draw with the “I love you” in my opinion. Love does not happen in two months. He’s trying to “win” you, you see he’s trying to win you and you are excited by his excitement for you. It’s a heady experience, especially when you’ve experienced a lot of badboy waffling.
But no, I don’t think this is “the one”. Nothing is going to unfold and turn into chemistry, because you really want something different. Just my opinion.
And as Nickster mentioned in a different post, a man who is pursuing woman who is lukewarm about him has his own Emotional Unavailability issues.
Annette,
When you have any kind of hurt that leads you to pursue anything with disrespectful men, you will talk yourself out of anything that leads to emotional depth. Disrespectful men are surface level; their inability to connect makes them thoughtless and careless. Being with them causes chaos that messes with your adrenaline. It gets to feeling like a roller coaster ride, and pretty soon that starts to feel normal and anything other than chaos feels empty and boring.
Acknowledg and accept your feelings, while working through them (never underestimate the power of journaling), before acting on them. I’ve made my current therapist out to be a villain in my own head (she’s great, one of the best in reality), because I’m scared of myself and the process of getting better. Growth means that we have to admit (not beat ourself up for) our faults and be vulnerable enough to be kind to ourselves and others we love or want to love. When you’re recovering from the “bad boys” your mind will play tricks on you to stay stuck (the ego loves that). Be strong and trust that you deserve better than your past.
I don’t know that I regret the men I’ve loved (because I’m wiser), but I know I don’t want to go through the pain and horror of letting a man walking all over me again when I don’t have to. Remember: All that glitters is NOT gold. And take care. And kudos to you on your profession (some of the best/kindest people I have know have been therapists; I can’t imagine it’s ever an easy job).
Also a word of encouragement: For decades I had been attracted to the bad boy type and bored by nice guys. Now the “bad boy” makes my skin crawl in an awful way and the good guys fascinate me. Take care
Jennifer
Annette,
I wish I could take the word “chemistry” out of dating. It’s an overused word that justifies pursuing unhealthy situations. Usually in dating when a person feels “chemistry” it is actually an instinctual red flag to run, not pursue. All the women in healthy relationships I know love the men because they are respectful and giving and good, not because they have chemistry. I’ve never heard my friends in happy relationships use that word. Ever.
Butterflies and chemistry and excitement were all things I would have used to describe what I felt with my ex. He was a disaster. Horridly selfish and lying. What I was really feeling was nerves from choosing to stay in a bad situation. Basically I was chasing pain. I do not recommend that. Ever.
Annette,
One last thing (goodness, I’m on a roll tonight), it’s perfectly normal and healthy to desire independence in life, but where we can get into trouble is when we start thinking we have less needs than everyone else and that to have normal needs and reasonable expectations is needy. It’s not. Some of the saddest and unhealthiest times is when I have held myself to higher standards than others while condemning them for being human all the while resenting other women for being in satisfying relationships. It’s okay to trust a worthy person and be trusted.
Natalie,
thank you so much for this, and thank you everyone for your advice and support. I’ve stopped calling him because I do realise that friendship cannot be made, as Natalie says, with a hidden agenda. Also, I was the one always initiating contact, and I don’t want to be pursuing him. It’s been hard for a while, and I still miss him, but it will get better. All the posts on breakup boundaries and rules have helped. Not that I wanted to go into any extreme, but there is a post where Natalie says that “you may as well want to wrap yourself around his ankles, but actually you should step back and respect yourself”. This kept me from texting or trying to come crawling back for more crumbs. Also, I won’t blame myself anymore for feeling uneasy when I was supposed to be happy when we started to go out. I wasn’t happy at that moment because I felt sad about my ex being heartbroken, and got so much contradictory advice from family and friends that I felt like my head would burst and had no idea how I felt. I blamed myself for everything and felt bad for not being sure. Breaking up hurt, but at least I felt like I wasn’t compromising anyone. “Hugging, etc.” means that when, after breaking up, he (and I) felt all tender at work, we would make out, although I was always afraid that I was the one sending mixed messages and felt bad doing that. I wanted to keep things clear and told myself, “if you want him that badly, go get back together, otherwise stay at a distance”. He then said “who cares, I’m sorry it hasn’t worked out, and yet we are fond of each other, so why not show it while we’re free”. He kept saying that he loved me, sometimes. And after some time when I did figure things out, while seeing him, I thought he wanted us to be together, but he told me he had moved on inside before we started to see each other recently. So there’s no point in keeping trying if he says there’s no point. I respect him, and I still love him. And I miss him in my life. But only when I move on can I be friends with him. As equals, if only it makes sense then.
Also, I didn’t want to keep my options open when we broke up. I did feel bad about building something on a not-very-happy start. It was a bit traumatic for me to change partners suddenly, as it was to “leave someone for someone else”, even if I was technically free. I know that we have no right to expect people to wait for us, but I did need a slower pace to simply adjust. He was coming from a different place so he didn’t see it. And we do need time to get to trust someone. I feel sad sometimes now, when I think that when I finally felt better and more at ease around him, he said, no. It’s like things are only good now so take it or leave it, I’ve no time to waste. Of course nobody has, but… I just don’t know how to explain it. Love isn’t a race, it’s natural. It’s organic – one of Nat’s words. I never wanted to be casual with him, it just felt overwhelming to become “forever and ever” and making plans while, or right after, going through a breakup from someone else, even if it was a breakup for love.
Lucy,
Wow! You are so in touch with your feelings and self-aware. My favorite thing about reading what you write is that I sense self-compassion. That is the greatest gift a person can give themselves.
I expected that all would be easy in love once I healed some. No. I expected that I would meet a good man right when I gained self-esteem. (Not necessarily.) Life is not about being perfect, it’s about being open to learn from it.
Well done!
Wishing you all the best,
Xx Jennifer
I recently met a guy – he approached me out of the blue at an outdoor event. My gut was uneasy but wasn’t sure if it was because I was just getting back out into the dating scene or if it was him.
Had a conversation about kayaking (I mentioned I wanted to kayak around a local island and wasn’t sure about the currents). He asked if I wanted to kayak around that island with him. He could borrow a truck and a kayak. He seemed very smart, self aware, socially aware, emotionally aware. I wasn’t comfortable ’cause I didn’t know him at all. He wasn’t pleased with that and after trying unsuccessfully to get me to change my mind, suggested coffee first.
I think he was trying to get me feeling insecure with some texting games prior to the phone call. In one of the texts he said it was too early in our *friendship* to call late. Waited to the last minute to set up the ‘date’. I was busy and said so. When we did set a time he said he had 1 hour – oh, and he said we should go out on my boat sometime.
At this point I was almost positive the guy had an agenda and was approaching this like practice. He had already made it a friendship rather than dating and I was curious as to what his agenda really was.
I went in calm and very boundaried.
He was very polite and gentlemanly as expected. He talked a lot about his family – he’s very open, I mean, very open. Told me where he lives, told me about his kids, his sister (he lives with her). He didn’t ask many questions about me. When he talked about his kids and family he seemed very angry (barely underneath the surface). One of those guys that has worked hard all his life and is just pissed that things (people) aren’t going the way he wants/thinks is right.
I also think he was trying to test me. Before he told me a story of something he did in 7th grade he said “you won’t want to see me after I tell you this” – he (and other classmates) used to terrorize the substitute teachers by putting tacks on their chair and things like that.
He also told me he once messed with his ‘mentally handicapped’ sister by calling and when she answered he’d hang up. Repeat. Then he told her it was him and she got pissed. He did this because she’d do that or call and not say anything.
I just listened. I didn’t let on what I was thinking. I waited a few minutes and said I had to get going.
He then said maybe we can set something up to go boating out at x lake. I said what about kayaking around the island. “Oh, I don’t think I could keep up on my paddleboard” I thought you said you were going to borrow a kayak. “Oh that would require planning.” Uh, yea and your point is?
BTW, he lied about ‘borrowing a truck’ – he drives a truck!
He’s a manipulative guy, not sure what he’s looking for, but I’m not hanging around to find out.
Next time I’m going with my gut right out of the gate.
Guess what he teaches at the local college…wait for it…behavior management!
He has an agenda and I haven’t quite figured out what it is, and I’m not sticking around to find out.
I’m not sure how to say thanks but no thanks. I think text would be best. This is one area where I really struggle. I was thinking of saying something like, I respect you so I want to be straightforward that despite having a nice conversation, I don’t see this going anywhere.
If you guys have any ideas about what his behavior/motive was all about or another way to ‘get rid of him safely, I’m all ears (or eyes ;).
Thanks for reading, I’ve had this bottled up for a week!
Healing,
Always listen to your gut (but don’t beat yourself up if you don’t catch the message outright). We are all learning. You learned an important message: Things are not always what they first seem, though he gave you a pretty quick glimpse at his true character when he showed HE was uncomfortable with your boundaries (ridiculous on his part) and your taking care of yourself (absurd on his part). Recently a nice man asked for my number (I politely said no as I was dealing with way too many personal and family issues — ill loved ones — to even think of dating). He was a bit caught off guard, but made sure to be polite and respectful. And that’s how it should be. Also, I never told him why I declined, as I do not know him well, and it is none of his business.
Also, once while hanging out with a friend and her husband, I asked the husband what the correct response would be when a guy you don’t want to date asks you out. His response, “No thanks.” I always loved that. There are people who get boundaries.
And woman to woman, here is a truth that has always been and always will be: YOU HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO SAY NO.
You owe him nothing.
Take care and good for you for not falling for this guy’s trap.
Thank you, Jennifer!
Okay, i’m not even sure where to begin. So 3 years ago I met someone and we started speaking for a few months and he was really interested, but I had just gotten out of a terrible relationship and I was dealing with a lot of other things that needed my attention family wise. I developed feelings for him but never expressed it as I wasn’t ready for another relationship. I slowly distanced myself, so as not to lead him on and eventually we stopped speaking. This year he flew to another country after hearing that I would be there for an event, I didn’t know that he would be there but to my surprise I saw him and felt a strange feeling, I wasnt quite sure how to handle it because we hadn’t had any contact for so long, except that he saw my posts on instagram. Anyway, he asked to meet for coffee and i accepted, and we caught up but never spoke about feelings or why we stopped speaking. He was happy that we were in contact again and then I developed some feelings or maybe those feelings I previously felt came back, I told him about it and then he said to me that when he saw me, he wasn’t really sure about his feelings, because they werent the same as 3 years ago, even though he felt that i was the same as years ago. He mentioned that he regretted losing the connection and he came because he thought this would be his last chance to see if there was anything. He says that he feels a connection to me and he knows that he would regret letting me go again, but he really likes me and there are feelings and, that we should keep in contact and really speak a lot. He contacted me every single day and would even be so worried that i was upset or mad at him if i didnt reply to his messages. So i recently had the opportunity to travel to his country because I have some family friends there and thought that it would be a great opportunity to get to know him better. He was aware that I was coming and he seemed very happy and excited and made plans for us to spend time together. However, when I got there he seemed normal and really happy, however a few days later he changed, I couldnt see him all the time and he knew this because I had already arranged to spend time with my family friends. He became distant and whenever we were together (Not alone, but with his family) he would never look at me or make any effort to speak, but even while i was away he would never message or apologise for not being able to spend time with me as planned, it just seemed as if though he wasnt interested anymore. Then I heard that he was getting some pressure from hs parents about me because they liked me for him. I asked him if he was okay and then he suggested that we should speak, and i agreed,. He then said to me that, he is not sure about his feelings and that even though im amazing he doesnt feel motivated for it to be more and he doesnt know why he reopened things with me. I told him that all i wanted was to get to know him better, i wasnt looking for an answer about whether he loved me or to talk about marriage. I had to confirm the feelings i had by spending time with him , which never happened, i spent one day with him out of the 3 weeks i was there. He started talking about the future and saying what if things dont work out and then our families with hate each other and kept asking what do i expect after getting to know him. Anyway, the way he behaved hurt me a little and i told him that it wasnt okay, because he actually ignored me the entire i was there and i felt that i wasnt even given a chance. He then said that everything happened so fast and that we should slow things down (all we did was chat about our jobs and various things but no agreements about a relationship). After I had gone back home, a few days later he sent a message saying that he likes me a lot but like a sister. However his behaviour before I got there was not how you would be with a sibling. First he asks to slow things down and now im his sister? LOL I confronted him and told him that no one forced him into this, he decided to do this all on his own. no one told him to come and see me either.I mentioned that it seems he doesnt know what he wants and that I cannot be with someone that indecisive, like he said a lot of different things. I told him that i do not feel the need to be in contact with him and that he should contact me anymore.
i feel okay actually, I just felt confused, because I dont know WTF actually happened.
all thoughts, opinions welcome!
I meant, He should NOT contact me anymore. I also said “no thanks, I already have a brother” hahaha
Wow, I have been trying to figure out what went upside down with my relationship and thank goodness I found sites like this that can help me understand. I can’t appreciate enough all the comments and experiences left here to help others.
I met my girlfriend when I was recently divorced out of a 10 year marriage that was very hard on me. After talking and informing her of my recent divorce and fears of my feelings opening back up, she convinced me to get out with her. The first 3 months were great, getting messages daily to let me know how much she felt for me and wanting to get together a few times a week. She often would talk about god and how there was a reason we went through what we did to find each other and we were that disgusting happy couple. Intimacy was wonderful as it was something I had not had in even the last couple years of my previous marriage. After 3 months I received a letter in the mail (live in the same city) telling me how great it was to have me in her life and how god put us together and how she was able to be a better person for me because of what she had been through (also divorced). I had met her family and child and everything around those things were great too for me.
After receiving the letter, I left one back to make sure she knew how much she had done for me to open back up and how much I valued our relationship and looked forward to more great things to come. I had felt like I could love with all my heart again and did. And that’s when things did something that I would have never wanted to feel. All of a sudden everything stopped on a dime. The messages became less and even ceased some days. Intimacy stopped all together, even trying to hold her hand or put my arm around her was met with being pushed away. At first I had no idea what was going on, but thought she was done feeling for me. I took a lot of it for a while and then got to the point of I have to say something. Asking her if she was done, she became upset and told me I have you around and you have met my family even though I was trying to point out it was about us and our interactions. She advised she wanted to make sure we focused on the relationship and not so much the intimacy. Now to a point I respect that, but I still feel like we can hold hands?? We are not living together and I see her about 3 times a week. I have not done anything different since we met.
It has now turned into when I’m invited over, I’m left establishing the relationship with her child (6 years old) while she stares at Facebook on her phone in the other room. There’s times she even invites me over because her daughter wants to see me or calls because her daughter wants to talk to me. I’m on the sidelines, in the friend zone. The child and I have become very attached and now that has made it even more difficult to just run. Some days I don’t hear from her and then out of no where “I Love You” comes across a text message in 2-3 days and sucks me back in. As I have brought it up a few more times, now I get well I’m just not that physical touching and I don’t sit down very often so having us time isn’t going to happen that often. She said that she can’t be all my happiness and I need to find other things to make me happy. I do but it doesn’t take away the sadness I have when I think about what we have become. And on one conversation she told me I think too much and she would marry me tomorrow!?! What does that mean? I can’t have a physical relationship, but she would marry me? I’m in love but not crazy. I need to feel like this is real first, like it did in the beginning.
I thought my divorce hurt, but this is seeming to be so much worse. I thought that love could still exist just to have it ripped out from my heart again. I want to give her all the benefit of maybe getting through whatever has her walled up, but I’m starting to lose faith. Speaking of, I’m hurt that faith was used to get me to open up again to begin with.
Seeing these posts makes me think I do need to move on because I deserve better. I just hope I don’t become EU from this. But now I have an idea of why this could be happening and that I have not messed this up. Thank you all again for sharing some things to at least make this somewhat easier for my self esteem.