One of the things that I’ve learned from too many instances of doubting my gut and intuition is to never ignore it. Have I misinterpreted gut messages in the past? Sure, but that doesn’t mean that my gut was wrong, it’s just that at the time my experience with reading it was patchy and I tended to leave it to the wire before properly paying attention to it, so of course I was going to misfire. This is why I always stress to people who tell me that something feels off, that if something doesn’t feel right, it’s normally because it isn’t. That doesn’t mean disaster’s about to strike but it does mean that you need to try and get grounded and tune in to your inner voice–try and get a gauge on what has been going on inside and outside of you that might be giving cause to this unease.
If you feel uneasy for all or most of a relationship, this is a code red alert that you are not paying enough attention to your feelings and needs.
In today’s Advice Wednesday, I really feel for Helen because she’s had a bad feeling that she hasn’t been able to shake off for the duration of her 9-month relationship yet she hasn’t been able to put her finger on it because in her mind, she’s seeing his parents regularly, he takes care of her cat, he’s not away much, and he’s the one who broached moving in together three months into the relationship. Yet weeks away from moving in on what she calls a “trial basis”, she’s found the Plenty of Fish app on his iPad and confronted him about it. He says that it’s not being used and deleted it (after she demanded that he did) but she doesn’t know what to think. I offer up some advice to help her make sense of the situation.
If in doubt, retrace your steps by playing back the mental tape of your relationship and see what you notice. It’s also not a bad idea to try to identify other situations where you have felt similarly and what you learned from those. Keep in mind as well that ignoring your gut is stressful plus it can lead to snooping or being on red alert for ‘signs’, which only further erodes trust and communication.
Also, if you find a dating app on your partner’s phone/tablet, you’re not “paranoid” for being concerned!
Have you ever had a bad feeling that you couldn’t shake off in a relationship? What happened in the end? Have you found dating apps on a partner’s phone etc that apparently they’re not using? What happened? If you have any insights or some advice, please do share.
Take care of you,
Nat
PS There’s another Advice Wednesday video that’s also just become available (I got so many requests while I had time off so will be putting up some more over the next week or so) and it’s on: Will having sex [without emotions] after my painful breakup set me back?
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I like what you said, Natalie, about how Helen is being blinded by the hallmarks and avoiding her gut feeling. In my last relationship, I did the same thing. Also, it sounds like some extent that there was fast-forwarding involved on his part, to suggest moving in after three months — a code yellow perhaps. In my ex-relationship, I felt a general uneasiness the entire time, but I never acted on it because I too was blinded by the fast-forwarding, the talk (and not the actions), and promises. In the end my gut feeling ended up being right, as I found out later I had been totally lied to and deceived, but as Natalie says, you can spot the red flags if you re-play your mental tape. For Helen, this red flag is the dating app! This wasn’t something that was brought up, but another reason I was blinded with my ex is because I was co-dependent, which can make it even harder to read the unease because you think the person is your salvation, when he in fact is the one causing you anxiety!
The app suggests that on some level, Helen’s gut is reacting to the feeling that she doesn’t totally feel that he is committed. Perhaps she is trying to convince herself that he is – by focusing on the “hallmarks”. It’s like on some level your gut knows he has one foot in, or is only partially invested. The bottom line is, are you happy? Are you compatible values wise? If he is causing you to feel uneasy and anxious throughout your relationship, you’re not happy and you deserve more. If he busted your boundary with the dating app, you may not be compatible, as it suggests he may not be ready to settle down. It’s also good that she found this out before moving in, because if they are struggling to communicate before moving in, things will only get more difficult later on.
I have found dating apps twice in previous relationships and in both cases intuition was right. Both guys were actively looking for other women. One of them was constantly juggling other girls while maintaining a serious relationship with me. The other seemed truly loyal, but had a dating app appear after a month of separation, the relationship was never the same.
That sounds brutal @Michele! I don’t know how people justify that kinda crappy treatment to themselves. Hope you got out without too much pain after that.
Nat,
What a pleasure to see you and hear you giving the advice. I agree that the “hallmarks” have blinded her. In my last relationship I shut my gut up with “He buys me dinner. All my best friends met him and like him. He has a good relationship with his children,” and a host of other things that I checked off a list that could be titled “Bad Boys I have Known and What to Watch Out For.” Only I had not known this particular bad boy and he was very tricky indeed! But my gut knew and so did my son’s gut. I didn’t listen to either one because I wanted what I wanted and I was going to pay for love with accommodation and hope for the best. I am done hoping in that self-deluding way. The only real issue for Helen to face is the distrust that was generated must now be addressed. How does he now deal with the very reasonable need to have trust earned back? If he is dicey and blamey then she will know why her gut is telling her something. When in doubt, step back. Do you really want THIS guy so much that you want to work this out? Why does it have to be him? I am just thinking about the questions I wished I’d asked myself. My gut knew and if I’d asked a few tough questions, I think I would have had my answer.
@LauraG.. “when in doubt, step back.” That’s the best advice. The problem I always find is that when you step back and look/listen, you really have to accept what the answer is after that. I’ve done the step back part before, but then when they don’t come back proving they’re as great as you wish they were and trying to make things better, it’s difficult to accept that they are a jerk and carry on stepping back. I have a habit of stepping back and then when they don’t step up, trying to do it for them. I think if you ever find yourself trying to lead and follow in a relationship dance where the other person is just sitting back acting like they’re not responsible for making things better (ie. they’re already pretty great), it’s time to keep stepping back until you’re out the door.
This is an interesting one; I met my current partner ‘in real life’ and it was all very pleasant. Then we were watching something on his laptop one evening, and a dating website came up as one of his recently visited sites. I asked him about this, and he said he’d had it going since a breakup a few months back. It was very early days with us, and I wasn’t particularly worried.
However, time goes on, and eventually I told him that although I was really enjoying being with him, I didn’t like the fact that he had one foot out of the door and I couldn’t continue like this. He assured me that he wasn’t looking for anyone else, and that when anyone had contacted him he told them he was already involved with someone.
I couldn’t shake the feeling that something was off, and eventually did a google search on his user name – which revealed profiles on five dating sites, with logins from either that day, or the previous ones. I took screen shots, emailed them to him along with a message saying ‘Sorry, but you ARE active on these sites. Good luck, whoever you meet’. I was certainly ready to walk away, and thought that would be the end of our relationship.
But no… he never called me paranoid, or got angry or anything. He said that what he’d said before was true, that if anyone did contact him he told them he was already involved. With me. He said he’d cancel the sites.
Then a couple of weeks later, I saw his profiles were still up there. He swore blind that he’d cancelled the subscription and profiles. But they were still there. THEN I was sitting with him when he was trying to do something with the computer (not dating site related); he kept hitting ‘Cancel’, thinking that this would cancel an entire transaction rather than just the dialogue box… I realised that this is what he’d done with the profiles. Which is why he was convinced he’d cancelled his profiles, not realising that this wouldn’t do it. He’s an absolute dipstick with computers generally.
In hindsight, I think he was telling the truth. Certainly everything feels absolutely fine now. However, I noticed that when he bought a new car, he kept muttering about whether it was the best for him, and maybe he should keep looking – just in case. Same when he was offered a job. I doubt that a new girlfriend would be any different… and, as with the car and the job, everything settled down eventually…
This is a “grass is always greener” type of person and possibly a pisces, libra or Sagg? I would leave if you are still seeing him.. People like this don’t just not know.. It’s unfortunate but they know what they’re doing.. And why be on there to respond that you’re seeing someone else.. Why even be on there at all
When my fiance, whom I met on a dating site cancelled our match.com profiles, our first cancellation didn’t take.
I remember the night he said we should both take our profiles down. He opened up his laptop, and we both proceeded with the cancellation procedure, first him, than me.
We even stated that the reason for our cancellation was that we met someone through their site and gave each others users name.
A few days later, I noticed I was still getting match suggestions and he said so was he. We weren’t sure what was going on. Did it take match a few days to actually cancel the account ?
Well, we both wanted to get to the bottom of this, so we both logged back on match, and sure enough we were both showing as active. So we re-cancelled. This time the cancellation took. We never did figure out why our cancellation efforts failed the first time. Or at least we both stopped getting matches in our in box. It wouldn’t surprise me one bit of our profiles are still up somewhere sending “winks” to other profiles. There did seem to be a lot of phantom profiles on that dating site.
I met my fiance on match.com and he’s a WONDERFUL man and we are very much in love, but still, there were some practices at match.com that I thought were rather shady. The difficult cancellation process was one of them.
I trust my finance 100%, but even though there are many happy couples who met online, there is still a lot of monkey business going on with those dating sites.
Not saying that in anyone’s particular case, it was the dating site and not the guy (or girl) who was being shady, but in my experience, it was the dating app, not either one of us who wasn’t quite on the up and up.
Hi nutbrownhare, I sense that you love this man very much but I think you need to look at this situation a bit deeper.
Why does he feel the need to log onto FIVE different dating websites just to tell prospective women he has a girlfriend? Why doesn’t he just not log on? Unless you have a paid subscription, and therefore need to cancel for monetary purposes, whether or not the cancellation “takes” shouldn’t make a difference to whether or not you are logging in.
Your last paragraph also tells me that you are sensing doubts because of how indecisive he can be. You seem to be rationalising by insisting “everything worked out eventually”. Don’t ignore this gut feeling! I understand that you probably love him and you want to believe him. I’ve been there.
I dated a man once who I also met in “real life”. He was on tinder when we first met and I thought nothing of it – I mean, single people date. Whatever. He also overthought things and cancelled a lot at the last minute, but I put that down to just being a bachelor and having nobody to answer to. When we got serious though – had the ‘commitment chat’, called each other bf/gf – I thought he’d delete tinder. He initiated the commitment. Throughout our relationship, he wasn’t exactly a prompt texter, although he did call a lot, so I rationalised he was “bad” with technology.
Then, four months in, he left his phone with me one night while he went to the bathroom. Up flashed two tinder messages from two different women. I confronted him. He said he was “being friendly” and he didn’t want to “be rude” and would “let them down gently”. I should have questioned why my boyfriend of four months still even had tinder on his phone but I rationalised how “bad” he was with technology.
Well…two weeks later I was the one he was “letting down gently”. He ghosted me. Then began the year long hot and cold game that led me here to baggagereclaim but that’s another story!
I’m not saying your situation will turn out like this, but if he’s being a cad, please know you deserve better and should have it. Consider my story the other side of the situation. I wish you luck, love and happiness however it goes.
Gut and intuition – it’s a tricky business, but I do agree with Nat (and it’s not just applicable to relationships – it goes for dating as well). I met this 39 year old guy on POF. We had good connection and had 4 dates in 1 week (too much, too fast – I now realize that). There were moments where my gut and intuition raised a small red flag: (a) Well into date 4, he asked that we take a picture together (even though he himself never asked for a copy – it was taken on my phone). I thought, “oh, I don’t think a guy has ever asked to take a picture together so early on in the dating phase; oh well…” (b) My friends and I booked a trip to NYC for later in the year. He said, “Oh cool…maybe I’ll do a roadtrip and meet you/your friends somewhere halfway.” My gut said, “Hmm, it’s a little too soon to be talking about any kind of vacationing or road trips together; oh well…” (c) About 2.5 weeks into our dating stage, I already met his three best friends 2-3 times, with him saying, “See? You’ve already met them 2-3 times!” In my mind, I thought, “Uh, a lot is happening so fast; oh well…” My “oh wells” were because a part of me thought, hey, here’s a guy who’s 39 years old! He knows what he’s looking for at this stage in life – no mind games, no nothing. If he’s moving this fast and placing some future references here and there (couply pictures, roadtrips, etc.), I just thought that this guy truly knew what he wanted in a partner. 5-6 weeks later, he ended things with me, claiming that I was pressuring him to meet my friends (FACT: He NEVER ended up meeting any of my friends), and that things were moving too fast. Me – blindsided. I did find out that he was still actively on POF during our time together. I think it’s fair for a guy to casually date in a pool of different fishes, since we never had the exclusivity talk and my mistake was assuming the GF role too soon. But I should have trusted my gut and said to myself, “Whoa, something doesn’t feel right.” Maybe someone here can shed some light – what the hell happened??? Maybe he had his eye on someone else all along, and just needed a “backup” / “placeholder” in the meantime (shrug). Point is – Nat is right, ALWAYS TRUST YOUR GUT.
I think unfortunately that a lot of guys seem to like to dump women. He came on strong. You reciprocated [although did you really or did you just play along?] – either way you played along and then he backs off saying he’s not ready and you’re coming on too strong. Its bonkers. I don’t know why this happens – I think there are two solutions. One is to play it really cool, and not get sucked into any fast forwarding and not read anything into these gestures until enough months have passed that theres something to believe in. OR two, fling yourself into the relationship with as much gusto as you care for, and if it sours, get out quickly and don’t give a crap. It requires you in both cases to have shallow commitments until you know whats what – it seems to be how things are done now.
Thanks Suki. I don’t think I reciprocated. I just played along. In all of those cases / scenarios of future referencing, I just responded with “okay”. In my mind, I was willing to play it cool, and see how things would unfold over the course. But clearly, we didn’t even get there. I don’t understand men, nor do I understand the whole online dating thing. He probably did like me in the beginning but I guess he was also seeing what his other options were. When things seem like it was progressing on our end, he just didn’t want that because he was likely seeing one-two other girls, too, and he needed time to assess. Clearly, I’m not meant for online dating — I believe in the good ol’ days where you meet someone, and if there is a connection, let’s just date and see if it will turn into something serious — none of this, juggling people of sorts. These are people with emotions. And you’re right Suki, you have to go in with shallow commitments, but it’s difficult. Because as a women who only has the mind and heart to casually date one man at a time, it can be challenging. Can someone tell me, am I the only one who find online dating to be ridiculous? It’s basically an online version of The Bachelor / The Bachelorette. People are dating multiple people and then you get discarded. Hearts are broken. And then you read Mark Evan Katz’s blogs — he gives advice for The Bachelor version. The guy chases, the guy chooses, etc. What does that say about women? The Bachelorette? That we can never be the one to choose? That we’ll always have to accept that a man is dating multiple people and just WAIT for the one you like to choose you back?
I think we get really passive Mary. What if you asked yourself what you could have done differently? Not to get him to stay since he seems a bit coco bananas. But to be YOURSELF> at the very least, if we’re going to be alone, and jerked around by fools of man babies, you should be yourself. Thats why I’m wondering if the second option isn’t better – if I have to have no expectations and shallow commitments I’d rather not ALSO feel in the end like I was used and pushed around by some tepid guy. I’d rather go all in, be myself, do what I want and then move on.
What I would have done differently? Good question, Suki. I find myself asking that question a lot these days. A part of me says, “Girl, you should have read Mark Evan Katz’s blog earlier on to avoid this heartache – play it cool, don’t act like the GF, just have fun, and keep dating other guys until one of them wants to commit to you.” The other part of me says, “No! I go for what I want and like. And I’m not sure I would have done anything different.” I liked him, and was not dating anybody else — the guy knew that. I went all in, and look where that got me? Burned. The feeling sucks. A good friend recently reminded me that not every guy you like will like you back; it’s not personal. Why does it feel personal and in some ways, very used, manipulated, stupid, rejected and hurt?
@Mary, It doesn’t sound like you made missteps here Mary. I think this guy was just dating you and then lost interest (for whatever reason.. another girl online, wanting to date other people, commitment fears, still in love with an ex.. who knows??) But you did your best and you should be proud of that! Keeping your heart open when you’re trying to figure out what’s going on in a relationship that is breaking down is VERY difficult. You did that, he still broke things off. What pisses me off about men these days is that they seem to be so high on themselves that they can’t take responsibility and just say, “it’s not what I want” or “the feelings not there.” Instead they have to spin it so that you did something wrong, thereby exonerating themselves from any guilt. Talk about serious ego protection!
I’m not saying this is true of all men, I’ve met tons of great ones as well. But I think there is a serious ego-problem in our culture. A lot of us have an insane need to protect our concept of self, even if this comes at the expense of other people that we “care” about. It’s ridiculous and I really wish we would change this and the general dating norms that exist before I have children that are at that stage of life.
As for your own feelings of feeling used, manipulated, stupid, rejected and hurt.. I’ve felt these a lot too in the last year. And I think it is really Rejection 101. It hurts. It makes us question our sense of self and feel stupid, etc. But try working on re-framing it: you were brave, you tried for something you wanted, you were strong when things were breaking down, and unlike him, you didn’t feel the need to spin things so they were all his fault to protect yourself. Good job! That is the stuff that strong women are made of!!
I heard a quote recently that I really like and has helped me when I feel sad about my exMM and his painful rejection: “if the door doesn’t open, it’s not your door.” Continue to move away from this man and these feelings.. he’s not the man for you and therefore, if he doesn’t love you.. who cares?? There are better things in store.
@Leanne Thanks for your words. It really helps to hear from you and others. After this incident (which was recently), I find myself suffering from rumination. Replaying the events in my head 24/7 on overdrive. It’s a dangerous habit, as it often leads to depression. There is a lot of, “What did I do wrong, why didn’t he choose me, how did I screw this up?” going in my mind. Needless to say, it’s a horrible feeling. Thanks to all the people here who have offered kind words and support (much needed in a time of situational depression). Like you said, I am trying to reframe my mindset so the rumination does not get the better of me. I also agree with you that I’m really bothered by the fact that he couldn’t just be honest. If he had just said, “I don’t see this going anywhere”, or “I no longer feel the chemistry with you”. It would have hurt, but at least it would have been a proper closure instead of the semi-ghosting I received on my end. I’ll also keep your quote in mind.
The emotional recovery so far has been so rough. I recently found out he took his profile down – it sort of triggered a further spiral in my situation. Is there light at the end of this dark tunnel? Turns out, I’m not as strong as I thought I was…
You are strong @Mary, you are just going through a difficult time. I was in the same state this time last year and I fought HARD to get out of it. I went to therapy, did lots of journalling, found a new hobby (guitar/song-writing), connected with friends, made new ones, did CBT exercises, read “The Secret” and related books, and generally tried really hard to get well and build a better life for myself again. I hope you are able to do the same.
My thought at the time was, “well, maybe there’s a chance that this guy will come back to me one day and say he loves me and he made a mistake and all that” and if that’s the case, I want to be the strong, awesome person with a great life that I was when we met. And if he doesn’t (which is obviously the case now, as he has a very young baby), then it will make my life better regardless. I was spurred on by another quote (haha.. I am so into quotes lately!), that “the best revenge is living a good life.” I wanted to build a good life for myself, and for him to see if he ever came around.. for both good and bad reasons. haha!
Anyways, it was a lot of work with many ups and downs, but believe you can get through it and STAY NO CONTACT and take little steps everyday towards where you want to be.
An exercise that I found very helpful and continue to do regularly is make a list of 8 things that are important in your life. Mine were/are: self, family/friends, relationship, career, hobbies, travel, home, others. Put them in a list in a column. In the next column, write how you would like these each to be this time next year. Then in a third column, write one step you can take this week towards that. I still do this and update it weekly. It’s made a big difference.
Ruminating is tough. Despite all the efforts above, one of the things that I know still holds me back from being truly happy and well is ruminating about the experience and the pain that I felt and still feel. But I am working on that. Hobbies and journalling help especially with this. Do a bit of work on your thoughts each day and then work on distracting yourself from the rumination as you can. It is still difficult for me from time to time, but much better than it was before.
Those are my suggestions based on what’s been working for me. I hope that helps a bit! x Leanne
Thank you, @Leanne. It’s hard to get out of it. I’m seeing a psychologist right now, starting to journal, and trying really hard not to be withdrawn. Thanks for your words – you have no idea how much they mean. Clearly, I have issues that need to be dealt with. And like you, I would think, “Oh, he’ll come back.” As more and more time passes, I realize that it was my own wishful thinking, and I was in denial. I hate that he has this control over me. It makes me feel very weak. I’m learning through my sessions that I am in control of myself. It’s hard work though. And thanks for sharing with me your exercise (i.e., to make a list of things that are important in my life). The toughest part right now is controlling the rumination. It’s a beast in itself. But thanks again for your tips – it’s reassuring to know that I’m not the only one who’s going through this. Thanks @ Leanne.
“What pisses me off about men these days is that they seem to be so high on themselves that they can’t take responsibility and just say, “it’s not what I want” or “the feelings not there.” Instead they have to spin it so that you did something wrong, thereby exonerating themselves from any guilt. Talk about serious ego protection!” couldn’t have been said any better.
I have tried both approaches, go into it full on, they retreat. Play it cool, they seem to forget me. I think it’s the world we live in, guys just have too many choices, and always want more, cos it’s just there on offer.
Ughhh.
Mary, after reading more, it sounds like you didn’t *just* reciprocate. Maybe you went along, BUT some feelings were definitely involved.
Suki, you wrote:
‘ I think there are two solutions. One is to play it really cool, and not get sucked into any fast forwarding and not read anything into these gestures until enough months have passed that theres something to believe in. OR two, fling yourself into the relationship with as much gusto as you care for, and if it sours, get out quickly and don’t give a crap. It requires you in both cases to have shallow commitments until you know whats what – it seems to be how things are done now.’
I think I ‘get’ what you’re saying… The only way to protect our emotions is not to involve them. BUT doesn’t that in essence mean being unavailable ourselves?
What Mary said about The Bachelor, yes, I felt like I was that *almost* one, you know, choice #2 that THOUGHT it was her and dressed up for the proposal. Believed completely that her connection was real. But WRONG. Because you know, there was someone BETTER.
And damn, after 5 months together, 2 weeks before THE END, he had his email opened, and was showing me something and I could see the match.com notifications. So I figured, oh he’s just waiting for the subscription to run out. I’d deleted mine months earlier. And they were ‘unread’ in appearance. And then two weeks later, the last weekend I ever saw him, this time he ‘let me see’ his email again (he was selling stuff on Craigslist, including something of mine) and I could see an opened match.com email notification. Well, no way could that mean anything right? He must’ve just landed on it when opening email because everything with us was GREAT!!! We were planning vacation and summer things and having a wonderful weekend. Until he was DONE.
And I asked if there was someone else. ‘No, I’m not actively searching.’ But with four weeks there was someone else. And he created the plans, the vacation, the future faking. And then, after almost six months together, it was ‘I’m not there yet.’ WTF.
This is the two year anniversary weekend of the worst experience of my life. And it STILL hurts. Sooo much. Every.single.day.
In the book Men Who Can’t Love, it says in the end they will drop hints for you to ‘find’ and that the introduction of the hint of another woman without admitting to it is a definite path OUT, like the point of no return. I think I summarized that right. Well I will add that it’s when a man lacks respect, character, integrity and wants to appear *NICE* but instead is a passive aggressive harmful predator. But for some reason, I still blame myself for not being good enough.
I’ve been tuning in to various presenters of a neuroscience summit online, and this phrase, as related to ambivalent/ anxious attachment styles via Diane Poole Heller PhD resonates with me:
“I can want, but cannot have”
Now THIS IS ME. I was NOT this way prior. So if I was mainly securely attached with a touch of anxiety (80/20), I’m not perfect, it’s now reversed, or morphed, or something not normal. I’m just UNATTACHED now, to everyone. Maybe it was him, with attachment issues? IDK because the man I THOUGHT I knew would NEVER have discarded me and walked away without ever looking back. But he DID. I don’t know who I fell in love with and it haunts me. How can someone SEEM so invested and caring and be ZERO percent attached?
I OBVIOUSLY don’t have the answers.
And MJ, I am still thinking about your question to me… What am I afraid of. Part of it relates to that above quote. But I’m still thinking about my answer. It’s been a rough week.
And Mary,
I’m so sorry for your experience. Your story and this post hit me hard and I didn’t mean to dismiss your feelings. BTW, I don’t know how anyone could go on TV and be filmed for The Bachelor or The Bachelorette. No way. Never. Ever. And I swear I can NEVER think about online dating again. For every good ending, it seems like there are multiple horror stories.
Say Something,
You said:
IDK because the man I THOUGHT I knew would NEVER have discarded me and walked away without ever looking back. But he DID. I don’t know who I fell in love with and it haunts me. How can someone SEEM so invested and caring and be ZERO percent attached?
How can someone get down on their knee and propose and go to a HOtel and screw around? Not knowing why he did this still haunts me. He seemed so invested in our relationship. But his actions demonstrated he wasn’t attached.
I hope you can sleep and can find a way to get some joy out of your weekend.
Reading stories here sometimes really just opens up a old wound. I will not use online dating. The thought makes me vom. LOL.
I saw part of a bachelorette show when he dumped someone who just knew she was the one. And that is just how it unravels sometimes. Ok the stories today on BR have been heartbreaking.
Big hug to you. One day it will not hurt so much.
MJ
Saysomething- I think the first solution does make a person a bit EU because you hold back. The second is I think EA – you go for the relationship you want instead of waiting passively. The problem is if the other person is EU which often happens – then you have to get out fast and switch off quickly. I don’t think that makes you EU that makes you emotionally healthy – you can be sad for a while but one has to avoid making it bigger and bigger in our minds as time goes on.
I understand your hurt – but if you’re still upset two years after a six month relationship, then this is harming you. The time of recovery shouldn’t be so much longer than the time of the relationship and the depth of the relationship. i think it raises interesting questions of what is EA and what are boundaries etc.
Everyone is talking about rumination – it seems that once we get out it affects self esteem a lot. Even if the person was clearly tepid guy we are still thinking what did we do wrong. These are the habits to overcome.
Hi Suki,
I guess for me being able to ‘get out fast and switch off quickly’ didn’t work. Had it happened at 3 months, I think yes, I would be OK. I wish I could’ve just signed off.
But I am painfully aware that still being upset is harming me. It is so deeply embedded now. I am going above and beyond the checklists of things that are supposed to be helpful. It’s not enough. All the beneficial things: fitness, exercise, nutrition, (sleep eludes me. I do the dark room, mediation music or quiet, I can not sleep). I read and take on mental challenges with new learning. I sometimes do something good for myself. I try to look good. I have cleaned out my house, I volunteer, do kind things for others. I have paid down debt. Sought counseling, am taking a multivitamin and herbal supplement. Am trying to regain my social footing. Have maintained my activities. Lost 20 lbs (10 was needed).
I am my own worst enemy because I don’t feel *right* and yes, am still sad. Like, I’m lugging myself through each day, week, month, year, life. Lugging along. Lugging and looking for something else to try. Why would it be so hard to just feel ok? I don’t think it should be so hard. Putting in so much effort to just have a gamble at maybe feeling ok is exhausting. I don’t think it should be this way. But it is. My albatross.
Hello, Say Something,
I’m sorry to hear that you’re still having a rough time. I think this may have been brought up before on here, but have you talked to your therapist about depression? I’m no shrink, but I have experienced depression in the past and it seems to me that a lot of the symptoms you are describing (constant sadness for a prolonged period of time, sleeplessness, etc.) are classic signs of a clinical depression. I know no one likes to admit that they are depressed (to themselves, or anyone else), but if it turns out that you are, this is actually good news because depression is very, very treatable. I’m not here to tell you what to do in any way, I just wonder if you have discussed this possibility with your therapist. If not, it might be something to consider.
Hi Freedom,
I think you and a couple others have posed that question to me previously. I really don’t know what to make of myself, but I DO think I am doing the things that ‘should’ be helpful, just can’t rid myself of the negative thoughts/ inner critic stuff. I have the awareness of what I’m thinking and feeling, just haven’t been able to override it or convince myself to be happy. (“Convince” doesn’t sound right, and maybe that’s a problem right there.) I am a holdout for empirical, hardcore results and I can’t see any in myself.
Say Something,
If you figure out a way to eliminate painful thoughts let me be the first to know.
Today, I was out at a social event and I thought about what you said about being discarded. I reflected over all the years I spent with my x. I guess I still didn’t know him. Major time invested.
I said this to you before be thankful you did not invest years in him. Tough week. Tough Saturday. Still healing from the BS at a client site. This week I really realized walking to a meeting that I am alone to clean up all this mess. Not that I believed anyone else was gonna help do it.
Oh my.
MJ
MJ,
If I ever figure it out, I’ll share. Right now I can only share steps that ‘might ‘ help. I DO believe my hurt is so deep that it lives within (that whole cellular level thing) so I need to work on that. I have no horrid childhood stories, no physical abuse, no alcoholic parents. Just know that my mom is EU. So I DON’T know why I can’t shake this. I reflected yesterday… This will be my NINTH consecutive summer, alone. Each year I have hope that ‘this year will be different’ but it never is. I’m headed out, and putting some beachwaves in my hair. (With my college daughter and her friends, which means I may end up solo along the way)
I thought of you, telling me how you saw his online pics wearing clothes he’d been at your house in. It is a SICK feeling to see them actively (semi-publicly) trying to impress and be with someone else. For me, that was like he took my rejected self and ground me into the dirt, slowly with his heel, while using the same smile and words that attracted me, on others. I was a generic, warm body. My generic self is headed out and needs to find a moment of peace. I hate this weekend. Hugs to you.
Hi Mary, yes I feel exactly the same way about online dating. It feels like a big game not something serious. I find it impossible to juggle multiple people, but also feel like that’s what I should be doing just to keep it a level playing field. And then I basically assume any men I meet on there aren’t serious, which ruins things with any genuine ones.
Mary, flush him, and you know what I really want to say. It was all just an ego boost for him, probably just recently broke up with someone, had something to prove etc. hate to say it but it wasn’t about you.. And it should be!!!:) you deserve so much better sweet heart. So keep marching along =)
Mary ,
This has happened alot to me when I was in my 20’s and I believe when they push like mad as he did , it’s never a good sign. You didn’t do anything wrong at all. You just listened and went along with it,
I truly believe that these types of guys are very immature and are yet to grow up and behave responsibly, it’s almost like they believe their own bullshit.
There’s a noted difference in the men I’ve met who DON’T behave like that pushing pushing really fast and ‘ you’re so amazing, I can’t believe I’ve met you ‘ etc etc and the guys who are just subtle and mature and don’t gush.
Have you noticed the guys who gush like mad like this guy are usually more egotistical and it’s almost like they’re in a fantasy land.
A good mature guy who has his feet firmly planted on the ground tends to just be ‘ nice’ , calls you when he says he will , doesn’t brag and talk himself up. And treats you with respect.
I believe it’s an important lesson for you to learn to ‘get’ the psyche of those types. I met so many of them
And yes,,I know it’s horrible and disappointing as ‘ but he told me this , he told me that etc etc’ . I don’t understand why or how I could be told all that’
Just watch for the signs , and believe me you’ll have more control of where you’re going in your relationships.
Good luck xxx
Mary,
Evan Marc Katz actually advises that you be the CEO of your own love life and that you treat men as interns at your business that YOU would either choose to have work for you or fire. He in no way advocates just waiting for a man to choose you, and in fact, just the opposite.
Mary, all the guys I met on POF have done more or less the same to me, all were still active on it whilst dating me..always keeping their options open, cos there are ‘plenty of fish’ out there, and it seems they want all of them. Even the ones who put ‘actively seeking a relationship’ on their profile didn’t really want one, just plenty of sex with plenty of women. I am so disillusioned with internet dating as a whole.
I know this too well. Lesson learned. I had been with a guy for about a year. He didn’t drive so it was always me going to him. And he wanted to see each other daily. As much as I loved seeing him, I’ve still always been an introvert and needed me time. So I explained this to him and he said he understood. That week I didn’t get many texts from him. I had a weird feeling even though we had seen each other a bit less that week. I just made the excuse that maybe he’d taken my introversion to heart and he didn’t want to overwhelm me or something. About a week after we had that talk I was at his house. While he was watching TV I went on his laptop to check my email and he had forgotten to log out. Me eyes were immediately drawn to notifications from POF. My stomach dropped. I didn’t say anything at the time I was so freaked out. The next morning I went to POF on my phone and was able to log on using his email and facebook password (which he’d shared with me when we became serious to prove to me he’s an open book). I saw that he’d had ongoing messages with numerous women since the day I told him about meeting up less often. No wonder he hadn’t been texting me! He’d been messaging other women all day every day! I copied all of the text on his profile and texted it to him with “I CAN’T BELIEVE YOU’D DO THIS!” He responded with “what’s going on?” and “I don’t know what this is, what’s happening??” I explained to him my discovery and he said he was now crying at work/it’s not what I think it is/my life is flashing before my eyes etc. I met up with him that night and instead of breaking up I just told him to delete it in front of me. I told him I didn’t want to break up although I knew things wouldn’t be the same. I stayed with him for nearly 4 years (lived with him for 1.5 years). All I ever heard from him were excuses and lies. I always had that chip on my shoulder and never regained trust. But at the same time I ignored my gut feelings (along with blatant warning signs) and made excuses for him. In the end I left him after he brought another girl to our home when he thought I wasn’t going to be there (I was). If only I’d have left him when I knew I should’ve, I could’ve avoided so much drama. Good thing is I can look back and learn from it!!
@Erica.. sorry to hear this! Sounds really painful. I am glad you are out though and hopefully well on your way to being with someone new who is good to you and that you can trust. I think I’ve turned into a real quote collector since I went through my most difficult experience the other year. But here’s a great one that I love:
“When someone shows you who they really are, believe them the first time.” I think it’s from Oprah.
We almost all seem to want to give people a second chance and hope we are just mistaken about what we think we are seeing. But red flags seem to always have a way of manifesting into problem behaviour again.
Glad you are out! xo
Amen.. Love this. People are who they say they are and peoples habits don’t change.. I’m glad you’re out of it now. I’m learning to use my head in love and not so emotional and dreamy.. I want to know that he likes me first and then maybe I will give him a shot 😉
Yes, the gut is always correct.
I was seeing someone and each time I was going to his house I would have a sense of dread, my gut was telling me not to go.
I would push that feeling away telling myself I was being irrational that once I was there I always had a good time.
But I should have listened to my gut and stayed away he called me to tell me all about his cheating.
I had absolutely no hard evidence or proof just my gut instinct to go by that something was off.
Obey the gut.
Sounds like a real assclown Janiey. Glad you found out the truth, even if it was painful, so that you can get away from this guy. Hope you are well on your way to healing, staying no contact and building a better life for yourself without this loser!
First time commenting on a Baggage Reclaim post! 🙂
I wanted to offer a kind of devil’s advocate position – I just broke up with someone two weeks ago (I ended it for various reasons but mainly because I didn’t think the relationship was healthy).
I had dating apps still installed on my phone for the first three months we were together. Not because I was using them at all but mainly because I was too lazy/forgetful to uninstall them.
I think a guy should be given the benefit of the doubt at first. There’s a difference between having an app installed, and actively searching for someone else when you’re in a relationship.
Also I would say that it is less about the dating app itself and more about the feeling that finding the dating app engendered in the person. Someone who is in a relationship where their gut is telling them everything is fine might notice the dating app and straight away think, “oh he must have forgotten to delete it.” (As I had done).
Someone who already has issues in the relationship might find the dating app and immediately see this discovery as validating their concerns. If your gut is telling you something is wrong you will see signs in things regardless of whether they’re an actual issue or not.
The issue is deeper than the discovery of POF, find out what’s really behind your issues (lack of trust/communication/etc etc) and deal with it head on
Hell to the yes on trusting your gut! This site was a godsend to me 5 years ago trying to understand what happened with what I discovered was my N ex.
Cut to today.. after dating online for years and either finding someone too needy or too distant.. I met a guy on a general discussion forum where I posted about giving up on finding an LTR. We started talking and he was all about me from the very beginning. I didn’t believe it of course, but still want to have hope for real love so I let him be as gregarious as he wanted, but also let him know I need time to develop those kind of feelings. Told me he loved me within a week. How he hadn’t dated since his ex a few years ago but I’ve now shown him what he’s missing!!! Did I mention he’s 3000 miles away? I had a sense he might be an N but didn’t want to project so kept talking regularly, phone, video, text, etc. Now 2 weeks later, I found out he’s a big liar and my gut was right from the start.
Time to take another dating break and figure out what about these Ns continues to attract me. Though high five to myself for recognizing and getting out of it so quickly. Trust your guts ladies! It doesn’t lie! You know what’s happening even if you don’t wanna believe it.
CC, your recent story is similar to mine. I met someone Online but it wasn’t a dating site and I wasn’t looking for someone. I can’t call him a N but that’s the social emotional level he seems to be presently. He pursued me hard but soon lost interest after I was “caught”. He’s a child who wants a toy but grows bored in a minute and then, “Oh, look! What’s that shiny thing over there?” In my case, his “shiny thing” was a “toy” he had already played with and decided he didn’t want anymore and then noticed again, just as children regain interest in old toys that have been put away and taken out again after a time. The thing with children is that they have no emotional boundaries. When they want something, they’re all in 110% but then quickly lose interest and are into the next toy 110% just minutes later.
What I’m learning is that it’s nothing personal, even though it hurts as if it is. These people are children in adult bodies. Children cannot be in adult relationships. They can’t!
Wow, I love these videos you are such a heroine of mine (and I don’t normally gush over people like this, so it’s a big compliment). I credit your work on BR as being one of the reasons why I could end a very harmful relationship, so thank you.
Yes, the risk here is in the ‘hallmarks’ as everyone has noticed: she is focussing on his actions as a sign of his character, when they don’t really mean that much (caring for her cat?) and don’t necessarily reflect his character or that he is the right man for her.
And yes, like others here I was fooled in my last relationship by the same, it was the classic – he is SO different to the last man (who hurt me), he pays for me; he has introduced me to friends and family etc.
My therapist said that this appreciating a man for how he is ‘different’ is one of the worst ways to evaluate someone.
What I don’t like in the reader’s problem is the way he reacted: my most recent ex did the same when I found that he was in quite regular contact with a woman I had never heard of, when I asked very calmly who it was, he flipped out and became very angry. This anger is what caused me to end it in the end, after he threatened me in front of my son (I was so frightened we had to leave our own home and go to a hotel for a week).
In fact the ‘hallmarks’ that had so impressed me could just have easily been seen as a ways to impress/blindside me and also control me. Everything went so fast and I obviously wasn’t completely over the abusive relationship that I fell for how he behaved as a sign of character.
Finally, as Nat said the idea that a man who is around a lot couldn’t cheat, that’s completely wrong: the abusive ex cheated on me from day one and was with me every day (though he went out a lot at night, but pretty much 80% of the time staying at my/our place).
It depends on the nature of the infidelity – he was looking for a lot of casual sex, so this was pretty easy for him to do without causing too many disruptions to our relationship and I guess the women he was sleeping with didn’t care about not being able to see him all the time.
Hope you can sort something out, but in the mean time – slow it right down.
Every time I ignore my gut I get myself in trouble. One issue that comes up for me is that when I mention this in casual conversation with friends they inevitably tell me I am being too judgmental. I dated a man recently, met online. He seemed perfect for me also a medical professional, had moved here from Florida a year and a half ago, into fitness, could hold an intelligent conversation, very soon into meeting he talked about wanting to take me to Florida to meet family and friends. I had this nagging feeling he was running from something in Florida. He had ties there because he had rental properties. Then the first time I went to his apartment everything seemed off. Granted he had only been there six months but there were no pictures of his kids, it looked like he really did not live there. I thought it was weird that a guy who made twice as much as I did ( oh yeah he told me how much he made) had this crappy barren apartment and an older car than me and seemed a bit cheap.
Then he pulled a disappearing act, then apologized and said I was the first person he had met in a long time who he could see having a relationship with. We got together a few more times then he disappeared again. I don’t know if he was married, had a main GF, or other stuff but something was wrong right from the start. I am never going to know what it was and that is fine but it made me realize even if I don’t know what my gut is telling me is specifically wrong, something is wrong.
@ Paula – What IS it with female friends telling people that they’re too judgemental/sceptical? Usually it turns out that the person was right to be as well! Guess they don’t read BR….
I don’t know but it annoys me to the point where I share much less regarding dating with them. Most of the ones who say that are married or in relationships I would not choose to be in.
My last relationship was exactly like this just over and over and over again. Eventually I made peace with the idea that there doesn’t have to be a “smoking gun” to justify ending the relationship. It just didn’t feel right. I may never know if he was really up to something shady, or not, and that’s okay. All I know is my inner self has been veritably purring like a fat happy cat since I ended that relationship. That’s good enough for me. I was also proud of myself for elimating the “blame game” that has defined some of my previous breakups.
Don’t get me wrong, in many ways on I was a wreck, for weeks, after the relationship ended… But at a much deeper level under all that mess, my innermost matryoshka was celebrating:)
Good for you @Morgan! I think this is the best thing, that you don’t need a ‘smoking gun’ to justify protecting yourself/listening to your gut. What a wonderful metaphorical statement! Especially now, with the attitudes of MOST (not all) men, & all of the loads of misinformation out there on what is normal?? What? When did wanting to be committed to someone, to be able to trust someone, to be intimate with someone–I am just saying the desire of this, the human need, or want of it–when did this become normal vs. abnormal? Behavior like this makes me think that these men, or women, treat relationships like money, or goods of sale…it’s disgusting, and very shallow indeed. There is not one thing about this that is real, genuine, or worthwhile. Not at all. People are not commodities, and relationships are supposed to be built on genuine things..NOT the “Bachelor/Bachelorette” mentality. How shallow! Online dating is just another meat market, I believe. It’s dangerous too. We are real, this is not a television show for God’s sake. It’s not buy one get one free, it’s not buy now pay later (for something better) how on earth does anyone ever fall in real love? I don’t know. Men HATE women now, the cultural standard is SO obvious…the ones who claim they don’t are the worst-don’t be fooled.
Morgan,
I just had to jump in because I loved what you said: there doesn’t have to be a smoking gun. We can trust our gut even without a good reason. Or a good reason for our old people-pleaser selves. I am now ending things or not continuing to pursue them when I have a strong feeling of any kind that seems negative. It is really teaching me to know what I want and not have to waste time. My mantra is “A river flows quickly and cleanly away.” I can go and I don’t have to explain or drain my brain. I recently ended things with a “poor me” guy who was very passive aggressive. He pressed a lot of buttons for me and I ended up tracking the roots of my unease to the guilty and manipulation. The frustrating thing is that it took me a year to listen to me when I “knew” within a month! Finally, I had to draw and redraw and redraw my boundaries so many times that I had to look at ME. Why do I need such a clingy needy person? I guess I had to look myself in the mirror on that one. A person who falls in love that fast then makes you responsible for their feelings when you don’t return them? That was an old me and I had to own up to her. I now understand that if I’d trusted me and believed I deserved better I wouldn’t have done the weird year-long dance I did. Listen to that gut! Even if you don’t understand it!
I was with my ex for 9 months and I can honestly say (now) that I was always weary of him. I can count on one hand the number of ‘good times/dates’ we had, everything else – something was off. (And in hindsight I completely ignored every red flag). But its really hard to follow your gut when you can’t identify the reason for the unease! But…I guess that’s what your gut instinct is. I have learnt a valuable lesson – follow it without question. Always.
My head was completely messed up by this encounter: I doubted myself at every turn, thought because I had been single for so long I had forgotton how to be in a relationship, spent hours of the day monitoring him on social media, felt unable to discuss my feelings due to being told I was over-reacting.
It was all so sad. So miserable and it did…break my heart a little. But I think mostly because I could not believe that there were people like this. Who purposefully go out of their way to lie/trick people/kill their spirit. It honestly killed me a little. It’s hard not to blame yourself – again because I had been single for so long I REALLY wanted it to work. But…it was never going to. And if I’m honest I think I was just playing along in the end – trying to catch him out. I needed proof! In hindsight, I wish I had just walked but I guess there’s the lesson!!
I ended up checking through his phone – one drunken rampage on FB he had put up girls pics on his page. Started putting kisses on pics. First thought- you drunken fool. Then the doubts creep in…. there’s always a fine line between being annoyed/over-reacting and I guess I was trying to reign it in. Another lesson – I will never hide what I truly feel again. I don’t care if he thinks I’m being irrational – if I feel disrespected, I feel disrespected. Anyway it starts nagging at me, so he stays over and I want to see if there’s any communication with a particular girl. There is… I’m devastated, but say nothing to him. After this NOTHING was EVER the same. This is when the monitoring starts and it becomes addictive. Watching his whatsapp activity (urm…I’m embarrassed to admit I had saved her number to) and FB comments. In hindsight I probably changed a lot towards him without even realising. Another lesson – be honest. I was worried about admitting I’d read his texts. I wish I’d just been honest and just left. Anyway we go on for another 4 months and he’s telling me he loves me, wants to move in, wants kids/marriage. That he ‘choses’ me. All BS. Words,words,words no action. So I break it off. He seems surprised! Comes back with his sob story a few weeks later, all this good talk, quote from me: “it sounds like he’d read a book” – he probably had! He seemed to be making abit of an effort. Another lesson- it needed to be a bigger effort. Then at my birthday party a friend asks him about another girl, how do you know so and so. His answer is strange and then he freaks out – this is BS, all this BS people are talking about me blah blah. By this point I’m like I need a conclusion on this… he goes sleep. Check phone again. I KNOW I SHOULDN’T!! And I don’t usually! But…I knew it was the only way to get the truth.
On my 33rd birthday I sat reading messages – mainly initiated by him- to multiple women. Turns out he’d been on Tinder too. I woke him up and told him to F off out of my house. That was that. I felt good… and then I felt terrible for months after. Not for losing him…but that mistrust, doubt,worry is sooo hard on your mind and body. I was exhausted. And I had lost all hope in men and truth. I just cannot fathom why people lead each other on like that. In the end though… I was playing a game too. Which makes me sad. All that relationship did was kill my spirit and make me act differently to the person I actually was.
If someone wants a fling – they should state it. If someone is dating multiple people – they should state it. You should not make declarations of love you don’t feel and you should let someone know if your feelings change or you don’t feel the same. Then women (and men) wouldn’t have to read articles about ‘playing it cool’ etc – relationships should be authentic. Honest. Happy. People should BE THEMSELVES. And I guess that’s the main lesson I learnt – if any relationship makes me feel any differently, then I’m walking. No questions asked.
I agree with all of these comments. I too saw many red flags that didn’t seem like red flags at the time. I made excuses for his behavior and/or didn’t pick up on the hints he was dropping. ”Hmm that was weird…maybe he’s just having an off day or maybe I’m just thinking too much into what he did or said, everything is fine”. I should’ve listened to my intuition that something was ”off”.
Unfortunately, I learned the hard way. I saw the red flags, chose to ignore them, then when he broke up with me, all of those ”little” things I ignored came flooding back and thats when the emotional shit storm (for me) began. I felt like a complete idiot. The breakup hit me so much harder knowing I saw the signs and didn’t get out. I wish I had protected myself more. Even though it’s been a while since the relationship ended, it still haunts me.
My gut is telling me something is off with my therapist and I’m trying to work it out. I had worked with him briefly a long time ago and he seemed to get right to the point about things (which I like), but I experienced him as somewhat cool and distant.
When I called to set up starting to see him again (partly out of desperation – I am struggling with something right now), I had left the message saying that I needed help with co-dependence. When we spoke, I said something and he (sarcastically/mockingly), “You’re so codependent, insert my name”. At the time I took it as light teasing, and responded with “yeah, but at least I recognize it”. But right after I had this bad feeling about it that just wouldn’t, won’t go away. We hadn’t seen or spoke with each other in 15 years and it seemed very inappropriate.
I met with him once and he seems kind, but somewhat aloof – he looks out the window a lot!
Go with your gut, change therapists. Don’t waste your time or money on someone you feel is not right for you.
There are plenty of therapists out there.
It took me more than three months to find a therapist who I believed would understand me. It was three months very well spent. If you don’t feel OK about the therapist, there’s NO WAY the therapy’s going to work. The best case scenario is that it’s a waste of time and money; the worst is that it’s a waste of time and money that will set you back emotionally and spiritually.
The ‘therapeutic alliance’ – the inner conviction that the therapist is really with you – is as important as the material you actually process.
When someone calls you ‘paranoid’? When someone uses ANY huge psychoanalytical term to blanket statement your very real & normal & healthy concern? BAD sign!!! 🙁 It’s NORMAL to question his behavior because it doesn’t fit. I was with one who out right told me not to comment on his Facebook page, & he never changed his relationship status either (I didn’t care, but when I asked him about it he lied, and said it was because of our cultural differences) 🙁 But he did just enough to make it feel like we were exclusive, he repeatedly told me (without any provocation) that he was just ‘with me’, etc…He bought me things. He charmed my family. He ‘helped’ me with money after I’d lost my job. Anyway..it’s a little bit different than this scenario, but looking back I SO wish I would have just left it alone, followed my gut, and quit fooling myself about it! I wasted so much time. This guy was actually (but I am not saying for sure) an abusive & cruel narcissistic type. I will spare you the gruesome details, but really, REALLY, if someone is okay with calling you PARANOID…good luck with that…there could be more mind f-err-ee on the way..and your gut is probably correct, and if not SO what..if it’s meant to be it will be. Looking back I wish I had this site, and had some point of reference other than my own confusion at the time. Nat’s advice is crystal keen, and especially the points of it being novel that someone is even introducing you to friends, family, etc, pushing a move in date, and so on…LISTEN to your gut, and your heart will thank you in the long run!
Here’s the worst thing too, because I stuffed all of my gut feelings…I went onto like, three more destructive relationships (one professional/non-sexual/ so-called friendship) and I allowed Mr. Nice Guy (aka “don’t comment on my Facebook”) to hoover me about 8 months prior to my traumatic professional relationship! It’s bad not listening to what you already know, but don’t want to know, while at the same time knowing that you don’t want to know, because others are just telling you that you’re 1)obsessed 2) paranoid 3) hyper sensitive 4) a drama queen! And you believe THEIR hype is a real thing, when it’s really all about THEM and not you at all.
I have been lurking this website for a while, but never had the courage to post amongst you all. This article speaks to my current situation with a guy, and I am finding it hard to read (or rather I am trying to convince myself that the red flags aren’t real). I think I just need to hear what I already know deep down inside from an outside, neutral source.
I’ve been dating a guy for a few months. On the first date, he told me how busy his life is. He’s a recent college grad and starting his career in a startup company that requires a lot of extra hours and travel. It’s true that he does out of town often and he is busy.
He texts infrequently; there are long delays between replies ranging from hours to days. I don’t send multiple texts in between this span. I just live my life and he texts again whenever he feels. He has initiated all of the dates between us and when we are actually together, it feels good. He’s a gentleman, he’s thoughtful, protective, attentive, not looking at his phone, showing all the good signs. We have good dates, healthy conversation, we’ve talked about personal things.
But as soon as the dates are over, the sporadic messaging happens again. We are not exclusive, nor have we talked about it really, but I just feel like I should be hearing from him at least once in a 4+ days span. Or maybe I am not into the new rules. Again, I don’t bother or nag him. I simply leave the conversation where it’s at and it eventually resumes, usually with a request to see me.
We have NOT had sex or any kind of sexual contact, nor has he pushed for anything. Thoughts? Do you guys need more context from me?
Hi Dee,
I’m not great at advice but hope you don’t mind my input…I’ve dated a few guys like that. Actually I just cut one off for that reason. I didn’t hear from him for like a month so yeah…..Personally, I like to hear from someone that I’m dating everyday but that’s just me….not ALL DAY, just at some point everyday. I heard from my ex (the guy that brought me to BR) everyday but that’s because both of us wanted it that way. We enjoyed sending each other funny texts and pics. If we didn’t hear from each other at some point during the day, one of us would get worried and text or call. He would almost always say good morning and good night, how’s your day going, what’s for lunch (lol) There were days that I wouldn’t hear from him as much during the day but I knew he was probably busy and vice versa. I knew we would catch up later that day anyway. Like you, I didn’t want to seem like I was bugging him and he was almost always the one to initiate the conversation. I didn’t want to appear needy either.
With all the technology out there, there’s really no excuse not to hear from someone for days at a time, especially when texting is so convenient. I’ve never liked when people say they’re “so busy”….who isn’t busy?! On the flip side though, people do need their space. I’m sure the guy likes you from what I read and maybe he doesn’t realize he’s not contacting you enough I’m not sure. There’s people out there too that don’t like texting, maybe that’s him. I wouldn’t call it a red flag just yet though…but I’d be careful anyway. When it comes down to it, it’s what you’re okay with.
Jay and Dee, I am glad I am not alone in thinking that a text or message a day is not too much to ask when you are dating someone. It takes less than a minute to say Hey,good morning, enjoy your day or something similar. My last man always said he was too busy, but when I was tempted to send him a message on whattsapp he was already online, only not messaging me. Big red flag! Nobody is so busy that they can’t just say a quick Hi. I don’t think it’s too much to ask,and I don’t expect endless conversations,it’s just nice to know he’s thinking of me..
If you haven’t let him know that you like hearing from him, he may think you aren’t interested. Let him know you enjoy talking to him, and it doesn’t have be anything negative, you know? There’s nothing wrong with stating what you are comfortable with. I think that’s what a boundary is for, right? For example, you mentioned that you’ve shared personal things with him in conversation? So that’s technically intimacy, and it’s possible that you need to feel more comfortable with this & maybe it’s difficult for you to express this to him? Don’t keep silent on what you need because of the stereotypes about needy, clingy, desperate, love-starved single women. These are nothing to be worried about, and if this guy seems to fall into the belief that they ARE (single women stereotypes), then it’s better that you find that out right away! It’s like, if you tell him what you feel (like you did here), and he bails on you, it’s better for you to find someone else who can deal with your personal boundaries. I am learning this too. For me a boundary is when someone ghosts me, or drops out of mid chat too often, or just calls when they need an ear, or texts me ALL the time without dialing my actual #! 🙂 So this could be a boundary issue for you. I would feel uncomfortable too, especially if I was sharing personal information with him. This is something I pay attention to with new friendships too, by the way, so context IS important, but really you’re just getting to know this guy too, as one would with a new friend, and so the assumption is that they would want to get to know you, right, at least that’s what it seems to be on the surface…I don’t know. Just tell him what you are comfortable with. Or, at the least, if you don’t want to do that, stop giving him so much ‘personal’ information and keep things light.. It’s awkward that he chooses to call you days after the both of you get all cozy so, why risk sharing everything with him? Or just call him and see what happens? I don’t think my advice is that great, but there’s a possibility that he’s clueless too, and just buying into all of the really dreadful dating ‘advice’ of the day, or it could be worst case scenario and he’s just a dick. Either way, you matter most, and it’s your life & and your time ticking away here, and not his. Sorry to be blunt, but what matters most is your life, safety (which is good that you are not sexually intimate with him imho) and your personal boundaries. He may have issues with being ‘engulfed’ or he may just be a controlling meanie–in which case you should be very careful! I’ve met a lot of guys who want to talk ALL the time, and offer a ‘shoulder to cry on’ and it’s really creepy to me now, since all of the other things I’ve been through..so hopefully this new guy you’re seeing is just being really cautious. 🙂
Oh, the going with your gut conundrum. I’ve been going back and forth on this for years. My gut has never failed me, but bad experiences and learned paranoia have sadly left me rushing to wrong conclusions, too.
I have now been seeing someone for almost a year. He is a great guy, loyal, loving, fun, with the future on his mind. For all I have seen, we share the same values. BUT, my gut has told me something is off since the day we met. After some pressure, I extracted from him that he had been texting with a few old flames (No big deal, I reply too when someone reaches out, but he did outright lie to me about it in the beginning. For fear I’d get it the wrong way, he said.) I also found out that he lied about who he was going on a day trip with very early in our relationship (first month or so,) and I caught him looking at naked pictures of his ex. I’ve asked him to delete those and he did. So, all of this came with the explanation that none of it is sexual, I’m the only one, and he’s been too afraid to be open about these things for fear of me running the other way. (I wouldn’t have, the “crimes” are harmless enough, but the lying has sent me reeling.) He also understands that lying is a no-go…
Upon further pressure and talks, turns out, he has diagnosed PTSD from being sexually abused by his grandfather over many years as a child. He is currently in in-patient treatment to deal with it once and for all. I commend him for his bravery.
I do talk a lot about my “gut feeling” about something being not right. He admits that my gut is right, something is off, but it is not other women. It’s his shame, guilt, and downright suicidal depression about his PTSD that he has been trying to hide – the reason also, he says, for lying about what I mentioned above.
Now…my gut feeling has been confirmed, but the chances are, it’s also mingling with my paranoia (other women, cheating, etc.) to potentially turn sour on a guy who is genuinely in the process of becoming healthy for himself (and for us.) My instinct is to go snoop and try and confirm my suspicion that there’s more than his PTSD he’s hiding, but I know that’s the beginning of the end. What on earth do I do now?
Let me also just add that I am in this conundrum also because I DO believe people deserve second chances. The power of fear should not be underestimated, it makes good people do wonky things. I know plenty of healthy, long-term, enviably loving relationships that started out with some questionable behavior on either side – they worked it out, and here they are. I refuse to become a sign-reading, hypervigilant person with questionable compassion. I also don’t want to be played a fool…oh my.
Sunnyside,
As much as you claim to believe people deserve second chances, do you think maybe you are using this ideal to excuse his poor behavior?
Lying about who he is traveling with, texting, and looking at naked pictures of exes oh my! Not loyal.
And now he is receiving inpatient treatment for a serious trauma. PTSD does not cause one to look at naked pics of the ex. Read Nat’s stuff about Florence. Especially since you claim things have been *OFF* since the beggining. Your job is not to investigate, confront, and then forgive on a repeating schedule. How do you FEEL?
Hi Say Something,
thank you so much for your reply! To answer your last question first, I feel apprehensive and very cautious. And hurt, of course, by some of his behavior, which I expressed. I’m aware of the Florence trap and would have run for the hills by now if I even had the smallest inclination to help or heal him, I don’t. The boundaries as to my involvement and role in dealing with his trauma have been clear from the beginning, and he’s taking all the steps he needs to to get a handle on it by himself. He leaves me out of it. I have no interest in being with a broken man. But one sign of a healthy psyche is to be able to take the steps to heal oneself, and so I’m proud of him for stepping up.
It’s funny, the first words that came out of my mouth when he unpacked his trauma in relation to some of the things he’s hidden were THAT’S NO EXCUSE! It’s the truth. He knows it, I know it. And off he goes to treatment.
Of course, PTSD does not cause someone to look at naked pictures. A life lived in shame and guilt, however, can cause someone to lie about things that he may not have to lie about. He didn’t have to lie about going on a day-trip. I spend time with people know want to be more than just friends too. It’s all harmless fun (I don’t lie to him about it though.) He also didn’t need to lie about texting with old flames. Who cares, I do too, harmlessly. And those naked pictures – yes, that pushed a serious boundary. I don’t see the fact as a serious threat to our relationship, but it sure was hurtful. No doubt about that.
Thank you for reminding me that my job is not to investigate and confront. I have a habit of doing that. Trust has been seriously broken. Not, like I said, for WHAT he’s been hiding, but the fact THAT he’s hiding things. But it doesn’t fell like “enough” has happened to warrant breaking up with an otherwise incredibly loving, compassionate, and smart guy.
Bottom line is, there is a possibility my feeling of something “being off” could really mean he’s going through the worst of the PTSD fallout (hopefully soon to recover), paired with experiences in my life that cause me to assume the worst. It could also mean my gut is telling me I’ve got a cheater on my hands. I really don’t know at this point, and will possibly never know without investigating, and it’s putting me in a pretty hard spot.
If this issue is something that you aren’t that worried about, then why did you leave a comment in the first place? I say this kindly, not be offensive in any way, but I have a feeling you know exactly what to do, and it doesn’t make you a ‘hyper vigilant’ person at all! One can put the pieces together and NOT be hyper vigilant at the same time. If he’s being treated in or out patient, or whatever, he needs support too, but not at the expense of YOU being lied to all through out, or his possibly taking out anger on you. I have C-PTSD, but it doesn’t drive me to look at naked pictures of my exes. I did keep old normal/non sexual pictures of my abusive ex on my PC for far too long, but I rarely looked at them. I haven’t seriously dated since I broke up with him, and he’s been in & out of my life for 3 years prior to my breaking up with him! This is not something I wanted. So I kept his pictures online, I was not dating anyone, and never looked at his pictures. If I was dating someone I would not be looking-duh. That’s just me though. Any sexting pics I’ve received from guys all got deleted stat! I didn’t relish going ‘there’ again as the memory of it made me hate myself. Sexual trauma is different for everyone, obviously, but in my experience it’s not something I am comfortable reliving, or re-traumatizing myself with any longer. I can’t even deal with channel surfing and accidentally seeing a clip from an x rated movie now, so perhaps this guy is still not well, and I would be concerned with him looking at pictures of his ex as well.
Thank you for replying, L’Ano Rachitde. Of course I think it’s an issue, and it’s definitely the reason I’m posting here. My conflict, however, is not with the pictures he was looking at. Whether that is ok, questionable, a deal breaker stands alone. (And I firmly agree, PTSD does not automatically make you look at pictures of your ex.) My issue is with the lying, paired with the PTSD, and giving my gut feeling that something is “off” a place to exist without acting from a place of fear or trauma myself. I have vowed, after all the bunk I have been through with assclowns and diagnosed Narc alike, to keep approaching people (especially those I am in a relationship with) with compassion and understand. Not, of course, as you rightfully point out, at my own expense. At the end of the day, this is a process to getting back to myself, trusting myself, weeding out the good and bad signals from my gut (because my gut can also be responding to unwarranted fear!) This situation is just so very complicated with his PTSD, all I can do at this point is sit back and see what happens. But I am getting to a point where I feel like I need to make a choice and either go all in or call it a day. It seems like an impossible decision to make right now.
You know what, thinking on it, the bottom line is: Do I accept his dishonesty as a PTSD related symptom, causing him to make some bad, fear-driven decisions? Do I accept that with help he can become stronger and face me with honesty? Or do I say nope, PTSD or not, lying is a hands down no-go and I don’t need “the smoking gun” to make my exit. I don’t know, I don’t know enough about PTSD to make that decision and I’m frankly too traumatized by other liars in my life to make a balanced choice. Phew…
Sunny, I don’t believe in one-size-fits-all advice, so it’s hard to know how to comment on your unique situation. I would hesitate to endorse a rule like “All guys who lie should be dumped immediately.” It does depend on the circumstances and your ability to discern what’s really going on with him. It sounds like you are still in the early stages of seeing something that might or might not be a deal-breaker. He is throwing up some amber flags certainly, so I would say go slow, stay cautious, keep yourself protected emotionally and physically, continue to listen to your gut, and watch what this guy DOES. Tell him what your boundaries are – one more lie and he’s done. Period. Guys who look at naked pictures of exes are creepy – tell him that’s unacceptable to you too. You’ll know soon enough of he’s a good guy who is serious about working on his problems (and therefore worthy of another chance), or if your gut has been right about him all along.
Thank you, wiser. That’s exactly what I needed to hear right now. It’s definitely not a black or white situation, and going slow, and taking care of me is the best course of action. The “one more lie and it’s done” approach is very valid, but is also the one that always gets me. It puts me in a state of high alert, where I am just waiting to catch him in the next lie. I know the truth will eventually come out with out my hyper vigilance, but I’d rather have it come out now, rather than a few years down the line. I hope that makes sense…
After my experiences I am happy to endorse the rule ‘people who lie should be dumped’. Not worth it. And lies about hot button issues – sex, money – that’s out.
The good thing seems to be at least he didn’t get defensive and blame you. I too valued in the past that men were seeking therapy but now I’m not so convinced – it’s not an indication of anything. Plenty of asshats are in therapy.
It’s taken me years to admit that I have been dealing with complex post traumatic stress disorder. I don’t randomly use this as an excuse for my own mistakes (now that I am AWARE) of being a victim of trauma. Being traumatized is not something I use to make excuses for my hurtful behavior to others. I’m sorry if I confused you with what seemed to be patronizing, or black and white advice. I understand how you feel. I’ve been in similar situations too. Take it easy.
Sunny, unfortunately his actions have made it necessary for you to be vigilant. You don’t have to be on “high alert” – just alert and watchful. But if you are waiting to “catch him in a lie,” there’s so much mistrust already that I can’t see how this relationship will survive. I don’t know if it should or shouldn’t survive. But you might consider instead waiting to see what he does, how he acts, is he honest, is he trustworthy, is his word his bond, etc. If he doesn’t have those qualities, I don’t think you’ll have to wait long to find out. It will be apparent sooner than later.
Thank you so much, guys, for your helpful replies! No worries, @L’Ano Ratchide, your reply was by no means patronizing. You’re all getting to the bottom of my questions here. How much is too much, when does it feel alright to leave a relationship even though the things going wrong are all so grey-toned. I am in my early thirties now, and childless, and am thinking a lot about how to create the life I want. It’s a tricky age where you realize that no relationship is perfect and compromises need to be made – that there is something to be said for sticking through it. But also an age where time can feel wasted, which is a terrifying prospect. How do you dump a promising partner when the “crimes” committed are all so gray-toned? I have enough evidence for people working through these kinds of problems as I do for these problems being a sign of a relationship to fail. I really don’t know at this point.
I had a brief relationship but my “gut” told me something was off, even though he went through all the motions of a guy trying to woo me. He abruptly ended things, for really lame reasons (not liking my “decor” was one of them). I was madder at my self than him, for not trusting my gut, as I came close to ending it earlier, based on my gut feeling, not any particular behavior on his part. Later I found out that he had gotten back together with on his ex-wives.
I can relate to this! It’s tempting to beat yourself up about it too, and I do that. Sometimes you just have to look at the good in the crazy, or else you end up beating yourself up for not doing what you sensed was right in the beginning. It happens to me so often, and I think it’s good to get perspective that is more forgiving…So, my point is…Could it be that your waiting for him to (intuitively) end it was a gut thing too? I mean, who can really mourn the loss of someone like that? Not that it’s a small thing at all, and I don’t mean this offensively either, because I am sure it hurts a lot! But really, what kind of person uses their dislike in home ‘decor’ as a veritable cause to judge someone so harshly? It’s like so much is in this statement that it’s almost sad, but realistically, it’s pathetic-and that’s just assuming he’s being genuine! Maybe you really were intuiting correctly, and in so doing, stayed to see what kind of person he really is-knowing it, but not. A person who breaks off a relationship because of something really superficial, and ends up (as you heard) with ONE?! of his ex’s? Anyway, at least you kind of knew what you were dealing with, rather than leaving and then always wondering ‘what if’..so, he gave you some closure, sort of. The closure of his being a very strange man with more than one ex wife.