It can be really difficult to deal with the self-doubt and guilt that comes with being accused of having ‘overreacted’ in our response to dealing with something that actually pinged on our boundaries. One of the most common examples of this is when someone is accused of having a disproportionate response to discovering that they were being lied to and deceived. It’s insinuated or stated that their emotional response and the way in which they handled the situation amounts to being wrong, as if underreacting or not reacting at all is the correct response. In the eyes of the deceiver, the person is making something out of nothing, or making a mountain out of mountain when they should be suppressing their true selves and pretending that the mountain is in fact a molehill.
When we’re in these situations we play then over in our mind and question our responses.
Was it justified?
Maybe I’m smoking too much drama crack…
I should have just _________.
It was silly/stupid/embarrassing/pathetic that I responded that way.
Maybe they’re right – I don’t deserve to be around them because I can’t be trusted to manage my emotions and deal with situations in a more mature fashion.
What we forget when we’re told that we’re overreacting to having our boundaries crossed is that focusing on our reaction is a distraction from the real issue.
It’s better that you so-called ‘overreact’ to a lie by choosing not to pretend that it doesn’t exist or that it’s not an issue, than underreact and end up cosigning to a load of BS. A lie left unquestioned can give the impression that it’s accepted as truth. Don’t let people make a liar out of you where you have to keep lying to yourself to maintain your involvement.
If you agree with their claims, the next time they lie or do anything else shady, you are near guaranteed to underreact or stifle your reaction. This is what they hope for.
It’s all very well that a person is telling you how you could have reacted better to the fact that you had caught them out in lies and deception but actually, they could have handled things differently by not doing these things in the first place and by taking responsibility when caught out.
People who habitually tell lies, love to tell themselves that it’s the right thing to do because people can’t handle the truth and will react badly, and then when they’re found out, they use the justified reactions to then justify their own thinking – See, this is why I don’t bother telling the truth!
In their view, the problem isn’t the lies and deception – it’s the fact that people won’t behave like puppets that say and do as they want. Their idea of your appropriate reaction is for you to not question their behaviour and play dumb. What they don’t admit is that if you turn a blind eye, they lose even more respect for you! You can’t win! They will actually attempt to take a mystical high road that suggests that you’re not ‘mature’ enough to hang with a grown-up like them. Your reaction is ‘wrong’ because they don’t want to feel bad about what they’re doing. They’re ok with what they’re doing so any reaction that suggests they shouldn’t be is always going to be considered unjustified.
If you responded to someone’s lies and deception by feeling upset, by reducing your trust levels, by feeling angry, betrayed, confused or whatever, guess what? You’re normal. If you can’t pretend that it didn’t happen, especially when issues that contribute to the lies and deception are continuing, guess what? Yep, you’re still normal. If you feel that you’d like to get some clarification, explanations and assurances before you feel that you could even think about proceeding, well hey, guess what? You’re still normal. If you would like that person to demonstrate in their subsequent interactions with you that they are in fact trustworthy, it is the least they could do after what amounts to a serious breach of trust.
These are not overreactions. They are legitimate and justified under the circumstances. Depending on what they’ve been up to, if they’re still in your life, you may not have reacted enough. Yet.
When somebody crosses your line and then tells you that you’ve overreacted and even suggests that you’re the problem, it’s time to flush. People with integrity don’t run around busting boundaries and invalidating people’s feelings on the matter. Certainly don’t bust your own boundaries or invalidate your feelings on their behalf.
Your thoughts?
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This is exactly what happened to me recently. When I questioned his shady behaviour, still wanting his ex to be in his life, complimenting her, sucking up to female friends, not spending enough time with me, just using me for sex once a week- no sign of commitment or feelings. He got very angry with me. Then it was turned around and I was the one who was insecure and paranoid! Painted me out to be the bad guy, with his butter wouldn’t melt ‘sweet guy’ image. I spent most of the time confused so guess I knew all along where I stood. There wasn’t a relationship. Glad I saw the light!!
Urgh Jasmine. This guy sounds like a total JERK EUM!! So sorry you had to endure that, but the loss of him is a huge gain. I am happy you’re free of someone who’s not worthy of you.
YEESSS!!!!!
I should read that last paragraph on a monthly basis.
I should read this on a daily basis – my family pulls the same BS too!
Happened to me just today!
I found out that one of my close friends is actually playing around with the cheating AC who broke me in every imaginable way.
When I had invited her out a few weeks ago, she had been unable to come because she was meeting a friend of hers (or f***ing my ex).
But I was to conscious on over-reacting, so when she asked me for help with her work today, I dropped what I was doing and helped her with a company profile that she needed to do. I spent hours preparing material for her because I didn’t want to come across as an over-reactor and pathetic drama queen.
I’m starting to rethink my decision..
Just,
She broke Girl Code!!!!!
Did she tell you they were involved?
I say drop her as a friend, and please don’t help her again!
Allison,
Nope, she didn’t! I found out through another mutual friend commenting on their relationship! She’s had him over at her new apartment multiple times (I’ve never been invited yet).
I’m SO angry. The only thing is, I don’t think she knows he cheated on me, she just knows we broke up and I never ever talked to him again. But she obviously suspects enough to tell me that she should not tell me when she meets him!
Every friend is really precious to me right now, so I’m wondering if losing her would make me even more lonely, but heyho maybe it would make me less stressed out!
She is not a friend but a saboteur playing you. As soon as there is deception -that profound and personal, there is no relationship. Join other activities, make new friends. Much, much easier.
JH, (I like that)
Yep, she broke the “G” code. She’s not only a non-friend, she’s malicious. Stay away from her as much as possible. You know, some people love to play with fire, get burned and then can’t understand why. She’ll get her comeuppance, and you’ll have nothing to do with it. Just walk away, laughing.
JustHer- When I was involved with the fwb guy years ago, the guy and my former “best friend” had dated briefly in high school. Since my friend and I lived in different parts of the state and she didn’t tell me how bad her marriage was, she seemed really happy that the guy and I were together and working things out (I was in denial that he had broken up with me and I was just being used). Since we were all childhood friends (we all lived in the same neighborhood as children and played kickball in the street), I got them in touch with each other (this was before Myspace, FB, etc).
About a month later, I get a letter from my “friend” that she left her husband and now was staying at the guy’s house for protection from husband’s abuse and physical threats. She had been at the guy’s house for a couple weeks and didn’t bother to contact me and I was her “best friend”. The guy didn’t bother to contact me, either. When I visited, it was obvious she was trying to get together with him and they did end up together and married.
The last I saw them, she was ridiculously insecure when he and I would talk and she acted like a two year-old who was mad at her sibling for stealing mommy’s attention. The thing is, that, because of her own insecurity and low self-esteem, the guy could be petting the dog and she would be jealous of the dog. The thing is, even when the guy was using me, he still called me his “fellow brain”. The last time I saw them, he was putting her down in front of me, even called her “stupid”. It was horrible!!! I pitied the both of them and, though I was deeply hurt, I was glad that I was out of that mess!
Anyway, the point of all this, JustHer, is that it’s normal to have mixed feelings, to be in shock and to feel betrayed, but, in the end, she’s not your friend. She isn’t there for you. As you said, you want to hold on to your friends as you don’t want to feel even more alone but, sweetheart, you are already alone with this so-called “friend”. She isn’t there for you; she’s there for the guy who broke your heart!
Just,
As the saying goes: With friends like that……………….!
Wait, she is prepared to call you up to ask professional favours that guzzle hours of your time (for free, I assume), but not to, say, invite you over to her new place for a drink/catch up?
This is not a nice friend! Maybe you should read the recent post on not feeling obliged to do favours for people again?
I’m really sorry you are having this experience.
JH,
I understand, completely. I too wish that I didn’t do the same thing. I am trying every single day to break from that pattern with the ex-AC at work.It is very difficult.Thanks for posting and good luck 😉
SITBP,
Keep at it, nothing is harder than trying to maintain NC when the AC is always in your face or just ‘around’.
But you can do it, honey!
JH – WOW – she is not your friend!! Not at all – drop her like a hot potato – you need REAL friends in your life at this time!!
Hugs!
Just,
This happened to me WHILE I was still dating the ex. She was a very good friend and only came clean when a mutual friend told me (cuz she couldn’t keep the secret anymore). My “friend” confessed and said she felt really badly. Boo f’ing hoo.
This girl who is involved with your ex is NOT a friend. You need to remove her from your life. You won’t be able to be comfortable with her or bring any guys around her. You”ll make new, better, more loyal friends!
I did this to someone many years ago. She was a new friend, and had confided in me that she was still very much in love with a guy that we both knew. I assured her he was no big thing and she hadn’t lost out on much.
Then he paid a bit of attention to me and I promptly decided my new friend must have had the problem and that I barely knew her anyway, and started sleeping with him. I told her that I was, the next time I saw her, as “I thought she should know.” She rightly walked away from me that second, and never spoke to me again, even though she had just moved into my building and lived on my floor, a couple doors down.
I tried to apologize after I split with him, and she (again, rightly) didn’t give a shit what I had to say.
I’m not proud of that behaviour and when I think on it now I am appalled at the low-self-esteem, lack of boundaries, and lack of values that I demonstrated. I took many of my female friendships for granted and would totally have sold them down the river to be accepted by a guy. Male validation was everything to me.
It took a few years before I could speak of my actions without getting defensive. Before that time I told myself my ex-friend was way overreacting.
Ew! JustHer, I am so sorry you experienced that. I recommend dumping a friend like that in a heartbeat. Don’t even bother helping her. It’s even worse that she didn’t even bother to tell you about it.
She’ll find out who he is as he unfolds. You just have to hold your head up high and know you deserve better, both in a friend and in a boyfriend.
Thanks Allison, Tink, Anon, Rosie, Poly, AHM, Lost, Magnolia, Courtney,
You’re all totally right.
I tried to dig more, and apparently she’s introducing him to all her friends and trying to hook him up with other girls now (her and him are besties!) as she feels like he deserves better.. Awkward.
I consider her dropped. I always felt like she was too into herself to care, and she probably is, but I’m done giving her something to care about.
I don’t think she’ll be getting much help from me ever again!
And she’ll probably find out sooner or later what kind of jerk he is. If she doesn’t and it actually works out for them, I would feel like a fool, but better that he’s her problem rather than mine!
When I discovered my ex was letting my 16 yr old nephew supply him with drugs, and lying to me about this for months, I finally had enough of his boundary busting behaviour. It felt really empowering calling him on it. But do you know what? He didn’t even apologise. I spent so long accepting other poor behavior he couldn’t believe I was calling him on it. Guess what? He disappeared soon after: he never even apologised. He couldn’t understand what the big deal was and said I was overreacting!!! Nat is so right: if you don’t learn to speak up they lose all respect and their lies and mistreatment gets worse. I only wish I’d followed my own advice. I’m left feeling very used and yet I still think about him every day. Please tell me it’s gets easier!
JB,
Just keep reminding yourself that he doesn’t deserve to breathe the same air as you. Your 16 yr old nephew was supplying him with the drugs. You’d think it would be the other way around. Your nephew is in for a miserable life. Pity him. And the ex didn’t see anything wrong with his behavior? Uneffin’believable!
Omg, Natalie. This came at the right–the PERFECT–time! I’ve been sitting with myself, feeling bad about possibly “overreacting” to a friend’s deception after I was finally honest with her about some tension that has been going on in our relationship for several months. Once I finally got around to telling her how something she did made me feel and that her actions hurt me and left me feeling confused–buy hey!, I was willing to go along with the charade that is our friendship in the hopes that she would at least NEVER do THAT again–she flat out denied ever doing it. In fact, she claimed she had no idea by her doing “Y” I would be hurt (which is bullshit because I explained to her the situation for the past year). She totally not only invalidated my feelings, but seems to have invalidated everything I have every shared and confided in her regarding THAT situation since she claims to have “no recollection” of it. I responded by telling her I was hurt beyond words that she didn’t remember what that whole ordeal was about, and what it meant to me. I told her I didn’t want to spend any more time with her, and left it as “I’ll see you when I’ll see you. I’m done kicking and screaming for you to pay any attention to my feelings.” I felt I overreacted and that perhaps I was leaning too much on her to take care of my *feelings* and so here I’ve been the past 2 days beating myself up in the worst ways, thinking I’m this immature train wreck. It infuriated me so much that she would try to play me like this! She claims to “forget” that a certain situation upset me so much 2 years ago–I have only been talking about this to her all of last year–but then she was like, “I don’t remember…what was that all about?” She tends to play stupid a lot and in my group of friends we ALL play the “I don’t remember” card so much, but lately I’ve been telling people more and more that not only do I remember certain things but I’d like for them to remember too. When they call me on my sh*t these days I have the decency to stop the “nothing’s wrong, everything’s fine” and “I don’t remember what that’s all about” card with them. I’m hoping to create some real dialogue and connection with them but they all see to think I’m “dramatic.” This happens a lot with people. From my childhood (with my family) to co-workers and abusive bosses. The list goes on and on and on.
Thanks for making me feel like less of a fuck up. Yeesh!!!
I’m willing to drop all of this people in a hot minute, but then how do I find better people? I know I’m settling with these people; I’m not even happy with them anymore. But where do you look for friends when you’re in your 30s and way out of school? As you get older finding friends become harder and harder.
Vicky- I know what you mean about feeling a little lost and alienated when the time comes to drop people or naturally lose touch with people as our relationship dynamic no longer fits theirs. I’m in my 40s and don’t have a best friend. In fact, I didn’t have any friends until a couple years ago. I met them through meetup dot com.
You’ll find that the healthier and more mature you become in your relationship dynamic, you and healthier people will naturally gravitate toward each other. This will happen without your consciously thinking about it.
Hi Rosie– thanks for the encouragement. I keep hearing about Meetup. I think it’s time I do this…
Vicky,
I’m 50, and meet people all the time.
I have met a lot of people through volunteering, Meet Ups, school, dance classes, clubs, the list goes on.
Start researching groups or classes that interest you, and the rest will follow.
Vicky,
Girl, you’re way too young to be having such fatalist views. You still have your whole life ahead of you. Rosie and Allison are so right, honey.
As you learn to put yourself first before dishonest, trifling people you will unconsciously gravitate toward healthier people and relationships. Heck, I am twice your age and I’ve only learned this and have been experiencing it in the last 3 years. That’s downright sad. But, you know what? I’m grateful that I “got it” now. Don’t be like I was.
Your post has me smiling, thanks. 🙂
Thank you. It’s really good to know that making new friends is possible. Now the catch is making sure these new friends are healthy!
You are not alone, I’m in the same boat. Try looking for new friend in your 40’s!
Janine,
I can only reiterate what the other girls have said, start researching what your interests are and you will find lots of things to do and new people to meet.
I joined a social group a couple of years ago, most of the people have the same basic values, honesty, fellowship, friendship, we go away for a weeks holiday a couple of times a year, go to art galleries when there is a good exhibition on and the list goes on.
I’m also doing a couple of part time courses on Ancient History and the Universe at a local college and the book club I belong to meet once a month to discuss what we have read, nothing too intellectual, mainly we laugh a lot.
Next year I’m going to join a bush-walking club as we have some beautiful countryside, beaches and forests not to far away.
These are my interests.
Where do you want to start?
Vicky,
I want to echo what Allison & Tinkerbell have said here: you can meet nice people through work, through social activities, volunteering, sport, or through dedicated forums like meet up.
As I tentatively start my own BR education, I am realising that real, proper friends are the best antidote for ACs, and the best protection against allowing them into your life in the first place.
Thanks for your reply, and your insights.
During our first romantic getaway, my BF criticized my singing, my photography skills and then my values on a sensitive matter, all in 1 evening. When I told him that his comments had hurt me, he yelled at me and accused me of overreacting and of ruining our evening. I told him that I will not allow anyone to invalidate my feelings. We worked it out at the time, but then he proceeded to harbor resentment towards me for another month. I am still unsure as to why. Needless to say, I soon had to ‘flush’ him, as the discomfort I was feeling due to his coldness became intolerable. Years ago, I would not have stood up to someone who invalidated my feelings but likely would’ve been down on myself for messing up the relationship. With age and experience comes strength and self-love, which to me are more important than any man. Thanks for validating my feelings and choices through your articles, Natalie.
Sounds like he was guilty for some reason and lashed out at you. It’s a common behaviour. Not to mention controlling. Best form of defence is attack. Making someone else feel bad for their shady behaviour. It has nothing to do with you, was best not to ignore it as no doubt it would have gotten worse! We don’t have to tolerate abuse in relationships, maybe they would behave themselves if they got called up for treating people without respect and love.
Thanks Jasmine for your validation. You’re right, this guy was one of the most defensive people I’ve ever met- on the attack AND totally passive aggressive. Glad to have gotten away early. All the best 🙂
Wow! This post is super crazy as I’ve been going through the exact thing with a friend I recently tossed out and flushed. In a nutshell, he and I are no longer friends due to multiple violations of boundary busting, gaslighting, putting my feelings/emotions down by downplaying it by saying “you’re so sensitive, get a grip!” Or “you’ll never find a boyfriend, this is NYC, just fuck!” After many years of going along to get along, this past summer was the rubicon of the relationship where he put me down about my interests, my beliefs, values…talking behind my back saying I don’t make enough money and “you can do better in life” but not offering any solutions…while all of this was unsolicited. it’s funny how in hindsight, he would try to implant and program his views, beliefs, values on to me and if I didn’t budge, the passive-aggressive streak would come out in the guise of subtle put downs, correcting my grammar/speech (born and raised in NYC..I don’t think I’m lacking in that dept)… Just a plain douchebag, snob and oddly emotion-less. Assclown friend, really. For 10 years, I was in a daze, misplacing my loyality on someone who didn’t deserve it while he took chips out of my self esteem/worth and assumed he knew me better than I did.
Anyways, I put him on full blast on facebook after he posted some vile racist/prejudice ranting in the guise of a joke. I wasn’t having any of it and wrote back and not only he said I’m “loopy” but brought his friends along to attack my character and then revealed some deeply personal stories of me…on facebook. I was hurt for a few minutes and just stopped and said to myself “if I posted something against his people, hell hath no fury!” But he expected me to be a puppet and deny my religious beliefs as if it’s not a big deal. He even said I overreacted, but based on what I’ve learned in BR the past year, I’m just going to defend my stance, not apologize for calling this hypocrite out this time.
10 years down the toilet, but a very valuable lesson on friendship. A lot wiser and of course, NC full force. Never looking back as I’ll be busy enjoying my new chapter in life. Thank you NML for all that you do.
Just what I needed to read! This is true in so many aspects.
My favorite from an ex when he was caught out in a lie: “I didn’t lie (he did) but just didn’t tell you the details of my life because I knew you couldn’t handle it.”
I didn’t. I flushed. And blocked, so I get no more sleazy naked dick pics trying to remind me of what I’m missing. I ain’t missing it. I feel liberated.
I laugh each time he tries to talk to me now when he runs into me, asking me how I’m doing, where I live, how’s my job, my son, etc. The man who’s full of questions but doesn’t like to answer them. I don’t ask anymore because I don’t care. He asked for a hug the last time we ran into each other. I said no way. Go hump someone else’s leg.
I have NO tolerance for lies. Trust is done once it happens. If they try to wiggle out of it instead of own it, then they don’t even deserve a response other than me turning and walking away. It’s like the plug holding in their imaginary character came out and you see the empty shell of fraud that’s left. I don’t waste time with these clowns any more. My peace is way to valuable. I think I finally know what it means to love myself. I decided to stop struggling with these kinds of folks and it feels like the prison doors opened. They just aren’t worth it. Love is in my flowers outside, the view from the mountain I summited, that beautiful blue wave I rode and the eye contact with a seal who watched me, my cat sleeping next to me on the couch, my cup of tea, and fresh baked bread. Liars and head trippers have nothing to offer but hurt. Leave’em behind and don’t look back.
Hi Selkie,
Love your post, I was smiling with understanding and acute ability to relate throughout. You see him clearly for who he is and are clearly over him. I laughed over him asking for a hug your immediate thought in response. Girl, it’s great to now be able to laugh at these fools when not that long ago we’d be actually shedding tears over them. I don’t know about you but I can’t laugh enough at their pathetic antics.
“Go hump someone else’s leg”…comedy genius loooool 🙂
Go hump someone else’s leg … Love it! Lol.
Gosh, Selkie, I love your post too;) Your AC reminds me of my AC, haha, he once sent me a pic of his private parts and saying; ‘ “look what you missing” …I was so embarrassed and disgusted, what is wrong with them?!!!
Little Star,
I think the question should be ‘what’s right with them’!!
Selkie,
Thanks for sharing this comment. It perfectly sums up something that has been bothering me for months after the fiasco with Mr. Liar: “I have NO tolerance for lies. Trust is gone once it happens. If they try to wiggle out of it instead of own it, then they don’t even deserve a response other than me turning and walking away.”
This is such an important insight to remember. Thanks to your comment I can now accurately articulate what bothered me intensely about his break-up email. In typical lawyer language he had inserted his email with plenty of specious self-justifications and disclaimers of this sort: “I have not intentionally deceived you”.
This BS disclaimer is what left me feeling appalled and defeated. There was no point in telling him that although he is making himself feel better through that disclaimer, I know that he has deceived me – intentionally or unintentionally is besides the point. If you omit or drip-feed information – that is a form of lying. But since such rejoinders would have fallen on deaf ears, there was no point in saying anything to him. Like you said, one can only walk away from such people. In their eyes, they can do no wrong even if they pretend to themselves and to others to be sad or sorry about something. Deep inside, they do not care.
Of course, initially it was painfully difficult for me to accept the fact that he had a low-functioning conscience because of which he could justify anything – including lies – to himself. It was not easy to accept that I had made the mistake of caring for someone who could not even properly, sincerely admit or own the fact that he had misled & mistreated me.
Utterly disgusted for having dated such a Liar. Oh well, I will remember your comment next time I encounter someone unwilling or unable to take ownership of what they have said or done. I will walk away.
Pow!!
Bam!!
Not only when lied to. My mother would often say cruel things, and when I found the courage to let her know it was not nice, she would either say she was just joking, or I had thin skin. All attempts to minimize. Well, I let her know I would no longer accept such comments, and she has actually backed off!
This couldn’t have come at a better time. I’ve been upset lately b/c my Mr. Unavailable just came into town recently, and, he did what he always does…mess with my head. Instead of calling me and suggesting we meet for coffee and getting me a ticket to his event that evening (he was in town for work), he just sent me an email the morning of saying “hi, we’re on our way to your town, hope you’re well!”
Seems harmless enough on the surface, certainly nothing would “hold up in court” before a judge of him doing anything wrong. But, I know him and I know he was putting out “feelers” to see if I’d show up at his even that night. If I’d put in all the work and he could take whatever he could get from me booty wise and then leave and keep me at a distance again until the next time it is convenient.
Well, I didn’t show up, but, I found out he was in town for two days and he had a chance to meet with me and chose not to put out any actual effort to do so. So, I emailed him and asked him not to email me again and wished him luck. I later felt “bad” about the email, so, I sent him another one a week later apologizing and telling him if he wanted to be in my life, I did too, but, that I only wanted him there if he really wanted to be there. Meaning, if he wanted to make the effort to be there. Case and point, I told him I didn’t really see the point of staying in touch if he was going to be in town for two days and not bother to ask me out for dinner and a drink.
Long story short, I didn’t hear back from him. The past few years he hasn’t really talked to me a whole lot or responded because he says I’m “drama.” I admit, I can be intense, but, I also know that everything has ALWAYS been on his terms. I went along with it gladly in the beginning, but, as time went on, I realized how one-sided it felt and started making noise about it. Well, he’s never acknowledged my feelings once as being valid or even had a phone conversation with me about it (he just avoids me) and instead when I react to something and get angry at his behavior, all of a sudden, I’m “drama.”
Just tonight, I was thinking to myself, “well, all he really did was send me an email saying ‘hi, I’m thinking about you.” Did I overreact to that? Am I being unreasonable? Are my expectations too high? I mean, these bastards are so clever at playing Mr. Innocent…they cover all their bases and tracks just so they can either intentionally or unintentionally mess with you, and, when you try to point the finger back, they can throw their hands in the air and say, “it wasn’t me, it’s you.” There’s another term for that, it’s called gaslighting and I’m fucking sick of that shit!
I’ve struggled to let this one go for a long time. I know I deserve to be with someone who values me and my feelings and it clearly isn’t him. I am having trouble with letting go of how I felt when I was around him. Also, I was just enamored with his life. I wanted to be a part of it because it’s so exciting and something I’d like to be a part of. I confess, the guys I meet are not even close to making me feel that same chemistry, nor do they excite me with what kind of life they could offer me the way he did. Also, part of me deep down does blame myself. I know that sounds stupid, but, I know that the chemistry we shared was real and felt fully on both sides. Sometimes I wonder, what if I HAD played it cooler? What if I had done this or that instead of what I did? What if I was more like this or that girl? Would it have changed anything? I guess, I just want to know once and for all that “no, it wouldn’t have mattered if I had played it cooler at times, it wouldn’t have mattered if I did this or that differently or if I was more like another (more popular or famous) girl…that no matter what I did, he is just not the guy because he’s not available (for anyone).” I truly want to believe that, but, deep down, I still don’t and I still long for him. I don’t know how to shake him.
Wow..I have sent so many emails saying I am done, only to send more apologizing. But the wheel goes round and round always stopping at the same place. Like you, I still miss him and hold on to the myth that he will change and want me more involved in his life. I don’t know how to shake him either, but do feel I’m getting stronger every day.
Rewind,
You shake by blocking and going NC. Don’t continue to make this so difficult for yourself.
goldielox, please try not to play the what ifs, they don’t do any good but they sure will get you upset and miserable. You were yourself, and that should have been good enough if he truly cared about you.
I know, I am still dealing with my EUM bigtime. I still long for him like you do yours, its like a bad addiction. Even with me being no contact, the desire still pulls and I wonder how long before this fades, its been a long time already and still, all it takes is one little thing to set me back again. I tell myself that there will be someone who will treat me with love care trust and respect, but then I get impatient because he never turns up, I just go out on bad dates and miss the EUM. He’s still blocking me from moving on, I haven’t let go truly even though logically I know I need to. I suppose when my desire to not live a lonely life outweighs the desire to hold on to him I will finally be able to be free.
Dove,
He’s not blocking you, unless he has some magical powers. You’re blocking yourself. Have you considered counseling?
Goldielox,
You’re sending mixed messages to a guy who clearly deserve nothing but NC. Why would you email him, then send him ANOTHER email after initially ignoring him. That doesn’t make sense. Don’t point the finger at him for doing wrong. He’s simply doing what AC’s do. Examine WHY you’re still stuck on him.
Please. If you haven’t read it, you really need to: The Dreamer and The fantasy Relationship by Natalie M. Lue.
This book was recommended to me by Lizzp, – thanks, Lizzie, and I’m passing on the recommendation. You will see yourself in it’s pages, and hopefully it will help you gain some insight into YOU.
Goldielox your post hit a nerve with me especially with your AC saying you were drama! Also with the chemistry, excitement factor. Mine threw in the expensive gifts to boot when I gave him a hard time. I struggled badly with NC and the last time I broke NC and met my ex he told me the girl he was dating was drama. I told him is that because you are honest or is it because she smells your shady shit and calls you out on it? It was such an eye opener for me that he didn’t change a bit and was still trying to get back with me when he had a gf. These guys are poison. Toxic mindphuckers who we should celebrate when we get away from them. NC 4 ever!
Goldie,
Are you me?! I always feel really bad and guilty when I have to say “no” to my EUM. But I feel worse when he says “no” or cancels on me…which is ALL. THE. TIME. Why do I feel bad? I don’t know. I believe his excuses (he’s busy at work, he’s busy with his kids, the “ex” is being flakey, etc) and I don’t make any noises because I’m scared of scaring him off and in doing so, I hope that he’ll see how understanding, caring, and cool I am.
I can’t possible bend backwards anymore than I did. I can’t possibly accommodate him any more than I did. I play the “what if” game all the time and it kills me a little more each time.
Like you, the chemistry between us is electric. I have such a hard time reconciling 1) the fantasy of him that I have (I’ve had a crush on him for FOUR years); 2) that ALL my coworkers sing his praises and they don’t know that he’s lying to them too; and 3) the person who he told me he is (because I believed his words. I ignored all the red flags and told myself that I’m not gonna judge him because of my jerk ex’s and experiences) and the person who I discovered he is.
But this much I know => if he wanted to be with me then he’d make time for me and he hasn’t because he NEVER got a divorce. I have to remind myself of this every other SECOND because I miss him even though I know I shouldn’t.
Girl, hang in there. I’m in the same boat with you.
Thank you. If I wasn’t doing no contact I would be tempted to send this to my lying ex.
Thank you so much Natalie for another reality check, as i thought maybe It was me who was overreacting, being ‘insane” and demanding…I was right all the alone, it was not me, it was their unreasonable behaviour which provoked me to react “my way”;) Good riddance, no more pain and disappointment, I would never allow anyone to bust my boundaries!!!
Thanks once again for a great article.
Goldielox – the answer is NO! It would not have changed a thing if you had acted ‘cooler’. I was called for creating drama when the AC would cancel plans last minute, turn up late etc. some weeks later when we another issue arose I spoke to him about it in a very cool and constructive manner. This resulted in me getting dumped. I think he realised he wasn’t going to get away with treating me like crap and that he could no longer blame it on me ‘overreacting’.
He still asks after me to my friends and wishes me well, making out like he’s Mr nice guy yet won’t actually communicate with me. Completely manipulative behaviour.
You deserve better! And so do I. Good luck x
Jaycee – same thing happened to me. He stood me up and I called him on it in a very nice, mature, calm way – his reaction was to hang up on me, not talk for a week, stood me up for my cousin’s wedding he promised to attend with me, then when I went to talk to him – he said he couldn’t do this anymore. I learned how to shut up – stupid me!!
I told him once that I was tired of him punishing me for having feelings and his response was “like I’m you father or something” Some people just don’t get it!!
I have been NC for 2 yrs – he sent a message thru a mutual friend on FB to tell me hi, hope my family was good and that he missed my smile – it messed with me – now I have blocked him completely. And NO we have not been friends on FakeBook either.
My ex used to trot the line ‘i didn’t tell you because you would overreact’ all the time if I caught him lying should have flushed a lot sooner!
I recently ended a 30-year friendship with my so called ‘best friend’ who got mad at me because I caught him in a really stupid lie about his birthday party. His girlfriend plans a birthday “surprise” every year for him and she invites all of his friends. She has never invited me because she’s always had some problem with me, yet she doesn’t even know me, just jealous of the friendship, I guess. So when he mentioned that on his 50th birthday he was going to have a party and wanted me to be there, I told him to make sure he tells his girlfriend since she never invites me to the annual shindig. He got all defensive and said that he doesn’t have a party every year. I said ‘Oh really, because the person who was assigned to get you out of the house last year told me that he got a ticket on the way home from your party.’ He accused that person of lying. I said ‘Well, why would he lie about getting a ticket?’ His tone went from 10 to 100 and he yelled at me saying ‘…you can believe what the fuck you wanna believe…’ At that point I hung up, because I was not going to listen to him ranting and raving when I knew he was lying. That was June 26 and I have not spoken to him since. Our friendship has been on shaky ground for a few years anyway. This man is almost 50 years old, yet he would hang up on me in a second if his girlfriend (who he’s lived with for about 10 years), walked into the room. Then when I say something about it later, he tries to gaslight me saying it was the cell phone service (dropped call), or his phone needed to be charged, blah, blah, blah.
I trusted him several years ago to do some work on my house, which he has never completed (one excuse after another), but I paid him the amount we agreed upon, amid assurance that he would finish, but he disappeared. That blow up led to us not talking for 6 months until he gave in and called me on my birthday. He was less than supportive when I was going through that shitstorm with the at-work AC, telling me to ‘get over it’, that I knew what I was getting into, and that he basically ’told me so’ about how things were going to play out. So clearly this person had ceased being my friend a long time ago, and the flush was long overdue. Sometimes I miss our conversations, because he was really funny and insightful, and I felt that I could talk to him about anything, but this last betrayal of my trust, during a really difficult time, was the nail in the coffin.
Sanntay,
He proved to you repeatedly that he is sleazy, shady, less than forthcoming. You absolutely did the right thing. As I said below, once you see it’s a pattern, best to discontinue association. It doesn’t matter how long it was because it was never a friendship on mutual terms, and you could easily have done it much sooner. Instead you extended to him the consideration that he was never giving you.
Tinkerbell: Well said. He is flushed and good riddance. I’m beyond sick and tired of dealing with uncaring, self-serving, emotionally crippled users.
And speaking of the at-work AC (yes, I am still talking about that fool), I learned that he is about to pop the question to his lady. Apparently, he confided in my boss that “it wouldn’t be long”. That news hit me like punch to the stomach, but I played it cool. In January, he was telling me that he didn’t want to date anyone exclusively (of course I realize that “anyone” = you Sanntay) and that he didn’t have the time to devote to a relationship, yet in the span of 9 months (we last slept together in February) he is now living with and about to propose marriage to someone? Un-fucking-believable. I understand and accept that he is someone else’s problem now, but I just don’t get why he needed to lie about it. As others have stated before, why do the assholes get to move on and be happy without missing a beat, while we are still recovering from the damage they inflicted upon us? God only knows. Thanks for letting me vent. Wishing you all love and light.
Hi Sanntay,
So glad to see that you are stronger and growing and in the struggle.
The person he is with now is one to feel sorry for. Don’t bear anger or resentment for either one of them. The chance of their relationship working in the long run is slim to none. You know that because you’ve been on the receiving end of his AC behavior. He wasn’t that way only with you. This is who he is. Why would he share these personal plans with your boss? Is this person his boss also? He wanted it to get back to you for some pathological reason. That’s OK. He can’t hurt you any more. Don’t worry that you’ve mentioned him again. I’m still mentioning from time to time the MM who I ditched over two years ago and have long ago recovered from. I think when a person has cut you to the core, you never forget it. So the smallest stimulus will remind you and take you back there. But, it is only fleeting, and certainly is no indication that you’re mourning over the loss of the relationship. Far from it.
Tink: You’re on point as usual, although it is hard not to still harbor some resentment for the way I was treated. ‘Cut me to the core…’, yes, I couldn’t have described it better. As I understand it, he and this woman had a previous history, and there is a running joke in the office that she is a Biter, as I remember him disclosing that one of the reasons they broke up before was because she bit him in the movie theater (weird). I don’t feel sorry for her, because I’m sure she knows, or will eventually discover, what and who she is really dealing with. In any case, my boss, who in a sense is his boss too since he oversees the project, is the only one who engages Assclown about his relationship and how things are going, so the proposal revelation was borne from that. I’m sure AC knew full well that the info would get back to me since I’d told him before (when we were on better terms) about how the guys in the office talk about him and ask me questions like I know what is going on since they assumed we were friends. Fortunately, I have mastered ignoring AC, but more than anything, I’m just really annoyed that I have to continue dealing with him daily. Losing the 30 year friendship is much easier because that joker lives an hour away and there is no reason to see his shady ass every day.
Sanntay,
I’m right there with you, wondering why she can just move in with the next guy in 2 months when she’s the one who wanted the relationship while i have a year long timeout from the dating scene to put myself back together. I think it has a lot to do with their dependence on a relationship and their inability to go without one.
I don’t know where it originated from, but I definitely have a hypersensitivity to lies. If I see that a person is a liar by telling lies to me or about me, I run. Imo, a person who lies is showing at maximum, disrespect for the person he has lied to and for himself, low sense of morals and self discipline, total lack of manners and proper decorum to say the least. If a person lies to me, or Lord help them if it’s ABOUT me, I go berserk. There are not many things I would declare I NEVER do, but lieing is one of them. Oftentimes, I’m accused of being brutally honest. It’s such a waste of time. If you have to lie to me or about me get the heck out of my life. That’s the way I feel about it and that will never change.
The very worst kind of lie is that of omission. When you omit the truth, tell a story leaving out a crucial part of it. You deny the other person the chance to know the whole truth and make an educated decision about what they will do with what they’ve been told. It’s cunning deception.
Lastly, I will say that lies don’t always involve verbal communication. Presenting yourself as someone you are not or manipulating the truth so that is becomes more palatable to the receiver is lieing. What person who has any self esteem will tolerate this? Maybe one little lie is forgivable, only because being human, we are not perfect beings. However, the trouble is when it is clearly a person’s pattern of behavior. Once you discover that, you deduce that the person is busting your boundaries and you are helping him by putting up with it over and over again. Lastly, a person who is a pathological liar can be dangerous to your well being and personal safety.
Tink. The lies by omission are every bit as bad as the outright lies. Manipulation at its worst. I think back now to my relationship with my ex narc and I realize there were so many more lies I didn’t call him out on. When you are with someone like that you start to “choose your battles”. Hmmm I can live with that lie…it’s a white one! I’m only going pyscho if it is a big lie lol. Ahhh I’m so happy to be with someone I don’t smell shady with. My advice to my daughter recently was…if you smell shady…99% it IS shady so run…and yes they are dangerous to your health and well being for numerous reasons!
BethD And, they start out with the little white lies, see your gullibility and next thing you know they’re getting outlandish with the lieing. They actually believe what they’re telling you. It’s pathetic.
My UEex used omission to lie to me about an affair he had with his boss which he hid from me for a year. He revealed this affair to me when I, post a break up conversation reacted to me saying – Well I hope you find someone and have a good life. THAT is when he decided to tell say – “Actually there dis something Ihave been meaning to tell you…”. I couldn’t believe my ears, and asked him why he hid this from me all along. He said it was ‘nothing’ or it did not become anything, so he chose to not tell me – when exactly should he have told me etc etc. I flipped out – the truth is he had a whole year to tell me this. We were not in a committed relationship, so he feels he technically owes me nothing. He shed a crocodile tear as well even as I called him a liar, a deceitful coward, and many things and stomped off. Only to have him text me and say with great concern “Please text me when you reach home”. And that he was afraid his “being honest would jeopardise our possibility of a friendship.” I wasn’t thinking properly in my emotional haze, and did something stupid. I said ok, lets forget it, you did the right thing by telling me now. I indicated to him that it was wrong to have hid it from me for a year, but now that he has told me he shall be guaranteed my forgiveness – sigh, I cringe to think, how quickly I retract and feel guilty for my outbursts which are so natural and right to have. Added to this this AC has become great buddies, with my close girlfriend and they hang out quite often. I have gone into NC for a month and a half, but I can;t seem to avoid my friend as she keeps popping up at all mutual friends places, and still thinks she can pursue a normal friendship with me. I am in a good place now with NC, and can finally feel like I have control over my emotions and actions/reactions.
My real question/point here is: Delayed honesty, and manipulative honesty are not honesty at all : they are just forms of lies that are meant to confuse and continuing to use.
This kind of behaviour is very confusing, because just when you think you need to be mad at his deceit,he reminds you of his honesty – “I would not have ever told you , If I was a liar.” That is something I struggled with. But now, I am clear about that. He is a liar, and embroidering his lies into a mask of confusion, and freindship/goodwill is even more deadly and misleading.
Just needed to share that….
Doormat- Well…If you weren’t in a committed relationship, he’s right that he owes you nothing. I’m sorry. Choose the behavior, choose the consequences. What you need to do now is forgive yourself for choosing this type of relationship and for being so careless and self-destructive in hopes of “winning” a guy. You are just as important as any guy! As Maya Angelou said (she’s quoted here a lot), “When you know better, you choose better.” Choose better next time.
Thanks Rosie.
You are absolutely right.The thing is,
I was committed to the relationship, be he was not. All I said to him was please let me know if you meet someone else, because we need to be honest and it will help us be friends/move on. But I guess I was wrong in thinking such a thing would happen. I should have walked away earlier.’
“It’s insinuated or stated that their emotional response and the way in which they handled the situation amounts to being wrong, as if underreacting or not reacting at all is the correct response.”
I hate it when I get angry or “over react” as anger was the only “ok” emotion that I learned. It’s ironic how I expect myself to be completely calm when people bust my boundaries and that I am “suppose” to be all calm and say ouch that hurts I don’t want to play anymore. That is what I expect a mature and spiritual me to do. LMAO
But I still lose it and then feel bad about it.
What chaps my a** is when the AC gets off on calling me pyscho and “that I need help and to go take my medicine” because I was angry for being lied to, deceived, cheated on and STILL talking to the girl he cheated on me with – throwing her in my face on many occasions.
I told him once “that I guess I was suppose to keep my mouth shut while he was boinking me in the tush – I am not suppose to say ouch that hurts” Ridiculous!!
And now that I have distance – I have to tell myself what same person WOULDN’T get upset!!!
AHM,
Good thing I don’t deal with individuals that LOW, because they probably wouldn’t live very long. LOL! Actually, I’m serious.
This is what happened to me! 4 months post breakup my ex was still constantly texting me he misses me, loves me, etc. And I heard from a mutual friend that on the other end he was looking fully moved on when he’d see my ex out. One weekend I confronted him over text and he claimed that there has been nobody else since our break up. God worked his magic when I went out that week and ran into him with a new gf that he had while texting me these things!!! My instant reaction was shock as he introduced me to her (also was thinking is he an idiot!?!?). I flew off a handle and told her everything he had been doing and called him a piece of sh*t in front of everybody!!!! He then called me the next day to say I was “overreacting”…..um no you actually lied to me and her! He has since never stopped contacting me still and with a gf. True colors came to surface. I am never the one to cause drama but I was out of my own character by the limits he pushed for 4 months not leaving me alone crying about us when he didn’t want to make necessary changes or even go talk to a psychiatrist (I was willing to stick with him through counseling) and then to have a gf. Like honestly you are that selfish to also involve her in your mess. These people are clearly users
First -I’d like to respond to Sanntay, because I was recently wondering the same thing BUT I’ve realized the error in that assumption/interpretation “they get to move on and be happy etc”. We really do not know what is “happy” for him or anyone else- we only know what is “happy” for us. We’ve learned – appearances can be deceiving. Don’t be fooled. Focus on YOU. On what makes YOU happy. That’s the only thing you can ever really really KNOW. Think about it. Think about all the people who LOOK happy, and what the marketeers would have you believe about what will MAKE you happy. Only you know. Go within. It’s IN there. Not OUT there.
Care enough for YOU to not “go there” with that line of thinking…oh in 9 months he’s totally changed and suddenly has found the right woman, etc. I suppose it can happen, 1 in a million. BUT there are TOO many of these stores where ACs and such do just this. Only time tells the whole story.
I am reminded of struggling to get my second husband to stay and work on things in the aftermath of an emotional affair which ultimately terminated our marriage, resulting in their 2001 marriage. They have 3 children, they’re in the late forties, and from what our daughter says and my eyes tell me, they are NOT happy. I remember asking him during the struggle “Do you really think you’ll be happier?” to which he said “Yes”. I know he’d take those words back now. I wouldn’t have him back if he were the last man alive. 🙂
Focus on you and your happiness. It ain’t easy but it’s worth the struggle! You CAN DO IT ! 🙂
Those last two sentences of Nat’s post are really what I wanted to comment on -those hit me between the eyes. My UE ex regularly left our relationship and I enabled his return. During our final scene where after a reasonably nice day/evening which did culminate in a difficult conversation (but not a fight) he suddenly started to verbally attack me. I threw him out. For the first AND last time. 24 hours later comes the “I’m not for you” email, followed by, 4 days later, what’s started to look like a “form letter” email of “No, wait! People who love each other argue!” It was NOT an argument, it was verbal abuse. Reading this post, I look back at the many ways he twisted things into “miscommunication” to avoid responsibility for his behavior. Very manipulative.
I can also vouch for the effectiveness of NCR, and for the set backs you experience even if you take one “hit”. Now I have an image of a drug dealer when I hear from him, and I say “Step slowly away from the crack” … and find a safe, authentic source of validation when you need a boost (we all do sometimes).
As Natalie wrote to me during a course – Don’t sell yourself short!
Thanks for your response, Kleo. You’re right, I shouldn’t assume, because things aren’t always what they seem. I spent way too much time ruminating, analyzing, and driving myself batshit crazy over what happened, feeling that something was wrong with me, that I wasn’t good enough, when in fact I should have considered myself lucky for having been left alone. No matter how successful, superior and alluring he may think he is, inside he is very cold and hollow, and I would much rather be me than him any day, because I don’t have a trail of burned bridges and scorned individuals behind me.
I really appreciate your feedback.
And if possible – don’t sell yourself. Period.
Thank you for this Natalie.
The moment I found out my ex was lying to me about the entire end of our relationship and the real reason as to why, I reacted emotionally and I told all of my friends. The friend that hooked he and I up sort of reprimanded me for reacting the way that I did but I told her I did not care how it made me look because my feelings were justified and she couldn’t say anything more. Then, why he contacted me to try to come off as the “Good Guy” I told his lying a** off. Haven’t and will never speak to him ever again. This post just proves that when dealing with liars, how you react matters and it doesn’t make you less than for sticking up for yourself. You did nothing wrong other than not flushing them sooner! Thanks once again, Natalie. You’ve really helped me get thru this break up and understand my pattern that I have finally decided to end!
This post is very true and helpful, as always.
At the same time I think when we are hurting, EU, have low self-esteem, feel lonely and desperate, so basically before having been “baggagereclaimed” 😉 , we tend to preferr believing a lie than having to struggle with the truth.
These people who lie to us have been enabled to do so for ages because of our lack of boundaries.
Fortunately once we are healthy(er) we are able to trust our gut and defend ourselves.
Personally I am trying to find a balance between reacting assertively and keeping hopeful and open and able to trust. But I’m almost there 🙂
This is awesome. My ex would tell me “oh you’re reaction was way over the top. You’re not approachable. I don’t tell you XYZ because of how you react”. Perceived reactions. Not even grounded in reality.
Permission to lie and withhold.
Not happening on my time.
Talk to me about my reaction but that has nothing to do with your lying and withholding. Two separate issues.
Natalie, great post. But I’m guilty of over stepping other people’s boundaries, all the time. Can you write a post about how to stop meddling and being a ‘do gooder’ ‘No good deed goes unpunished’. That’s me 🙁
Theresa,
Have you posted before? I don’t remember your name. Anyway, Natalie has > 1000 posts dating back 8 yrs or so. You have to take the time to research. I’m quite sure you find the answers you’re looking for by their titles.
Excellent post….
The liar knows that the best defense is to attack… and this is exactly what they do: blaming you for catching them… sigh… very very tiring.
By the way, the stronger the reaction of the liar, the more sure you can be that you are correct.. Think about it.. if someone thinks that you lied about something how do you react? In fact: I really don’t feel like becoming defensive..I just say: well.. that’s just the way it is, believe it or not. It’s the liars who feel they have to be defensive.
regards,
Jaap
Yess Jaap My ex Narc use to go crazy when I accused him of lying. A few times when he finally admitted he lied I looked back at how he denied it vehemently. How I ever went back to him is beyond me. I guess cause I never actually caught him cheating or doing anything real bad but the lying was over the top. I think he actually believed his own lies after awhile and lied just for the sake of lying….I got immune to it but looking back///wtf was I thinking,,,
Hello all,
I experienced all sorts of shady behavior on the part of my ex-gf who was angry and bitter that i ended our 3.5 year relationship.
I used to believe that she would remain a trustworthy and positive influence on my kids so i let her continue seeing them. The first 6 months after our breakup proved me wrong. 2 months after the breakup she moved in with the next guy and told my kids all about him and how wonderful he is and what he bought for her, which of course got back to me. She blazed abroad on Facebook how happy she is now, which also got back to me through friends.
Then 6 months after the breakup i found out from my kids that on two occasions i allowed her to take them out, she brought her boyfriend along without asking if i was ok with it. Talk about awkward for my kids and the boyfriend! I’m actually surprised the boyfriend went along with it – twice!! I lost my shit when I found out months after the fact and confronted her face to face about it.
3 weeks later she tried to take my kids on another play date, only to find out she is no longer allowed to see my kids and be a part of our lives. She kicked, fussed, and raged on me, just as she did many times after the breakup when i tried to maintain boundaries. She vowed to see my kids again even if she has to wait till they’re 18 to do so.
Then she took to Facebook to air her grievance and rally support against me, which surprisingly baited one of my friends who thought i was being an asshole by cutting ties with my ex, and a bunch of hers who thought I was being immature. My best friend saw this unfold on Facebook and told me all about it so i could act accordingly. Needless to say i am one pseudo friend down, and one more boundary up.
It’s been 1 year post breakup, and 6 months NC. We haven’t seen or heard from her despite her vow to see my kids again. While I’ve become happy and indifferent for the most part, i still have moments when i want to break NC to see if i can somehow repair this broken situation. I think its easy for her to be NC since she has another person to draw strength from, but I’m on my own, so i will not risk any chance for her to pour hot lava on me again. I also think shes waiting on me to break NC.
I’m surprised she’s still with this guy, but judging by the fact that he went along for a ride with my kids i don’t think he has much for boundaries himself, which could be why they’re still together. I know it took a lot of effort and strength on my part to break up with her and make it stick. She’s like crazy glue that just won’t let go, which makes a guy feel pretty important.
I’m almost 40 and still single. Though I’m trying to meet new people and ask out those that I’m interested in, my confidence that i will find what im looking for is diminishing, so i think about contacting her. I even had a dream last night that i ran into her on the street and started to discuss the possibility of making up. I don’t think that would be in our best interest. She burned that bridge, so why am i thinking about rebuilding it?
Hey Deepend, big breath, it’s just loneliness, I also get the urge to contact the ex AC because of this, sometimes I feel maybe it’s better the devil I know..but then I think of all the problems in the relationship, how I am finally after nine long months starting to heal, feel strong and slowly but surely enjoy my own company. At 52 I feel like there will never be anybody else for me, one 22 year marriage, the last 5 years spent trying to make a crap relationship work but meh I have friends, two lovely children, a good close family…plus I get to sleep smack dab in the middle of my king size bed, spend my money that I earn how I wish, do what I like without having to justify myself to someone, you just have to look at the positives until that urge passes.
Hi Sandy,
I’ve come to the same place you are in – 13 years spent in relationships that haven’t been great, but hey, i have great kids, friends, hobbies, and things that are worth investing time and energy into. A relationship has not yet given a good return on investment yet, so why am i going to continue to invest? Part of me knows that I’ll never make a fortune if i dont invest, but it will have to be a great prospect. i haven’t met one to date that is interested in having me invest or vice versa. So if anything I’m finally in a good place in my thinking, and enjoy being on my own. As Natalie says, dont treat your single time as a prison sentence, and I’m not.
Hello
I love this site and find it so comforting and helpful – wish I had discovered it years ago! I don’t like lies, but I struggle to know where to put the boundaries for lies. I mean if someone tells a really blatant Bill Clinton style lie then obviously that is bad and you shouldn’t stand for it. But what if they tell a blatant lie but about something quite trivial, like never having had a certain type of sex or something? I mean technically it would be none of my business what they did before they met me, but then why not tell me that or tell me the truth instead of outright lie? Or those sorts of lies that about 85% of men love to tell from time to time about their phone being on charge because they couldn’t be bothered to talk? Those little white ones? Do you think that maybe five white ones = one big one and you flush if they keep on doing it or something? Because I do make it clear to people that I don’t like lies and that I’d rather have the truth or ‘no comment’ than a lie…
Then where do you think omissions fall? Where you get half a tale, but not the rest? Or distortions/gaslighting about trivial things, where their recollection of a shared experience is a bit different to yours, but shows them in a better light? (Popular when you’re discussing something that was not acceptable to you and they put a bit of spin on it to make them seem more favourable…)
And finally, what about lies that are told for understandable reasons? For example if a guy committed some crimes in his youth, but doesn’t want too many people to know now he is old, so tests the water with a newish lover by telling her just about one small crime to begin with to see if he can trust her not to blab to everyone? I mean that is understandable right? Or a guy who is on antidepressants, but doesn’t want to tell straightaway so hides them when you go to his house until he is sure he can open up to you? Those are sort of self preservation things, aren’t they, and you can understand why you might want to do the same in their shoes?
I’d love to hear more about how to deal with lies and liars – I don’t want to have liars in my life, but on the basis that lots of people sometimes lie a bit and to various extents, I don’t want to flush people prematurely either!
Natalie, you are amazing and you can never know how much you help people x
Katie,
Lies are lies. Please don’t excuse them, as this is how you remain with shady people! Why is this OK for you?
Remember, these are the lies you know of, what about the ones you don’t?
May it be friend, or boyfriend, if I discover any kind of lie, we’re finished.
You and me too, Allison.
Katie-
“Or those sorts of lies that about 85% of men love to tell from time to time about their phone being on charge because they couldn’t be bothered to talk? Those little white ones?”
This stood out to me. If you’re his girlfriend or even just someone he’s interested in dating, how is your calling “bothering” him? You’re his equal, not a fly he’s trying to shoo away, right? His “white lie” is a white arrow on a black sign pointing to something more serious.
In fact, all lies are arrows pointing to something a little more serious. I understand about waiting to reveal that he’s on anti-depressants as this is something that will unfold as mutual trust establishes itself. At least, if he’s able and willing to be in an authentically intimate, committed relationship. However, if he’s lying about sex positions or types of sex, it is an arrow that could be pointing to his feelings of insecurity or discomfort but doesn’t want to come out and say so. You’re not his mother. It’s not your job to do the emotional work for him. Either he’s ok with it or he’s not and he needs to communicate that to you.
Bottom line: All lies are created for hiding. They are “Keep out!” signs. If a sign says, “Keep out!” you know to move on to a sign that says, “Welcome!” 🙂
Katie
I don’t think i need to know if someone takes antidepressants. The crime thing i’m not sure about. It’s in the past and would depend what it was.
Ultimately, does it affect how he treats you?
Anyway I saw a great example of someone kicking off after being found out for cheating. Again. Spencer Matthews, Made in Chelsea. If he cheats in you, it’s your fault apparently!
Thank you, ladies, your replies were helpful – especially Rosie. I had never thought of it like that before!
I don’t mind a man not disclosing everything to me in the beginning and if I find as he grows to trust me that he told some lies or omitted some facts about his past to protect his present reputation then I can understand that. As long as I get full disclosure eventually then that’s fine! I don’t exactly go round telling people all about my own issues straightaway either in case they think I’m a weirdo headcase or something!
However, I had an ex get back in contact recently who does lots of ‘I don’t remember saying that’ and puts lots of ‘spin’ on past events that we shared to make his treatment of me seem not as bad as I remember. He also waited a while to tell me his exact domestic arrangements. None of that is lying is such, but it’s certainly not completely truthful! Also he did tell me that he’d never had sex in a certain place with a certain person, which I knew for a fact he had, because he’d previously told me so! I think he was lying about it to make himself seem more respectable to me or something. I called him on it and he said he couldn’t keep anything from me, not that he’d ever want to(?!) (er, you just tried!!!). I was wondering if this would be too small of a lie to bother about or not!
I think the feedback I have read here helps me.
xxx
When you are first lied to by a Narcissist it’s difficult to believe, because they come on so strong at the beginning. It took me awhile to understand my X-AC (Narcissist)and I rode the roller coaster of emotions and heartbreak.
Now that I’ve improved my boundaries and observations of yellow flags, red lights- warning signs: I do not give new relationships any unwarranted time. I don’t tolerate LIARS! I flush them immediately. There are way too many damaged men with horrible behavior and I have better things to do with my time and with my life! Even seeing a movie alone (some great ones out right now)is better than being dragged and tortured by these AssClowns.
PS: Hope you all are having a good weekend! Go do something fun…dry your tears if you have them. Love, AngelFace
I could have written your letter word for word Angelface. The lies are mind boggling and narcs/AC guys are good at it. Once u catch on though easy to spot. It feels so good to be off the roller coaster. Nothing beats peace of mind and staying true to yourself. Happy Sunday all! Have fun is right!
To a lot of EU men, any kind of emotional reaction to anything they do is an “overreaction” because they don’t want to deal with emotions period.
My ex grew up in a house where NO emotional responses were allowed – positive or negative so my normal responses to things that were distressing seemed an extreme to him. Also “nothing” bothers my ex so anything that “bothered me” (e.g. boundary busting, not stepping up to the plate, not working together on issues, problems with the kids including serious illnesses, my hurt about a lack of empathy)was my problem. It was liking living with a robot.
So right from the beginning he labelled me as being overreactive and like water dripping on a stone, eventually I started questioning myself and second guessing etc. I didn’t like being angry so much and feeling so many things were wrong, it made me feel churlish, ungenerous and selfish and too demanding. And even NOW in the thoes of our separation when I am acting NORMALLY for a separated person he puts guilt trips on me when he can.
Also EU men, especially the passive aggressive variety take NO responsibility for the fact that constant repetition of the same things DOES make people sometimes react very strongly and maybe not even in the best ways. This gives the AC the happy option of saying to you, himself and others – see she IS crazy!!! My ex never remembered anything that went on before so he never had a clue that when he busted my boundaries on Friday he had also done the same thing the previous Monday, the previous Monday before that etc. And I had asked him not to and he had ignored me. He PROVOKED my response.
Great post and thought provoking. This has plagued me for most of my life. As a child, I was utterly devastated when my dad left. I acted up and completely out of character, ( plus i was just going into secondary school and puberty…yikes!). I was met at every turn, by family, teachers etc, like I was stark raving mad and was punished or ignored and it’s taken years for me to actually understand that my reactions were entirely appropriate for me, my age and my circumstance. Having said that, it has set me up for a life of never standing up for myself or doing it in an explosive way because i’ve bottled it up for so long. Or I back down and totally doubt myself should anyone challenge my position, (even if they are the shadiest of the shadies!). In fact, I don’t need anyone else to challenge me because I do it to myself before they even get a chance.
Recently, I have been attempting to handle things differently, (family, work, FWB AC). Each time, feels like a monumental event and is pretty exhausting and I do feel like I go one step forward and two back. But if I don’t have my own back, I am absolutely at the mercy of people who will happily take advantage of my insecure position. It’s been going on for the best part of 30 years and I’m sick of feeling like a victim. I also want to be open to the decent people out there rather than being scared that everyone is going to turn me over. Part of me knows that things don’t have to be this way and part of me is hanging onto old habits. The conflict is difficult to manage at times but I hope that, little by little, the balance will shift in my favour. A happy thought 🙂
Great post Nat.
The ex AC was a master ‘drip feeder’, one little piece of information at a time and guess what! It was usually a lie as he would contradict himself later on and then say I ‘misunderstood’ him, that’s not what he said at all. I spent so much time scratching my head going ‘Huh!’didn’t he say the exact opposite a few weeks ago?
He said he was single, then said he was married, then said it was only a joke and he is single.
He said he never watched porn, it’s mucky stuff and then wanted to send me a clip of a woman doing stuff with vegetables, (said no thanks to that one).
He sent me a photo of himself with ‘his’ dog, it was actually his sisters dog.
Then he told me a was crazy and needed to see a shrink. Yeah right, sure!
Looking back I don’t think he ever told me the truth, not once, and these days I couldn’t believe ANYTHING he said. Whatever he says would be a lie.
I can’t believe I actually thought I was in love with him.
Pauline,
Crazymaking behavior, right? It’s amazing how a jerk like this can actually make a perfectly sane emotionally (for the most part) person wonder if they are really losing their minds, or their memories or both. It is very self defeating and destructive to continue dealing with them. A “hello” grunt of acknowledging them only if circumstances dictate that you should, but then keep it moving is best.
Glad you’re no longer involved in that insanity.
I was accused of over reacting to a situation by my ex, he said something very vindictive over the phone to me in a response to me challenging his shady behaviour, as a result I said “That’s it!” and put the phone down, that was 3 months ago. So after nearly a 7 year relationship I have gone no contact and stayed no contact. However, Im in a situation where I may bump into him in the near future and would like some advice from you all.
I have been invited to attend a memorial concert at a local pub for a mutual acquaintance at the end of this month, I would like to go because I would like to show my support for the brother of the person who passed away. It is more than likely that my ex will be there. I don’t want to offend my friend by not going, but I don’t want to see my ex and be put in the awkward situation of having my still raw feelings tested.
It really would be a case of being conspicuous by my absence,I don’t want to give him that satisfaction of even thinking he has even the tiniest impact on my life choices anymore. I read the posts on bumping into ex’s but this seems different as it wont be a surprise meeting or call. I don’t like feeling like I cant go somewhere just because he will be in the room as it makes it seem like he still has control over my actions. It makes me angry that Im even having to consider him.
I want to come across as being very much on track with moving on with my life, but not so much that it seems i’m putting on an act. Any suggestions?
Into,
This is always a tough question, and I’ve been on both ends of it: not going to an event because I knew it would be too painful to see him, and absolutely going to an event, dammit, because I wasn’t going to let him have the power over what I did or didn’t do.
I think the question is, how much pain are you willing to feel in order to support your friend? Sometimes it’s possible to put your feelings aside for awhile for a larger purpose, in the sense that “it’s not all about you.” Your pain has a nobler purpose then, that you are willing to endure it for the sake of another.
But there’s no shame if you can’t do that. Can you turn this into a win-win situation – figure out a way to avoid the ex AND support your friend at the same time? Can you think of a way to help him and show support in a way other than attending this concert?
Forget about what the ex might or might not think if you do or don’t attend. None of that is important. What is important is how you best honor yourself and your friend. What will that look like to you?
Wiser
Thanks for the reply, thats exactly how I feel, that this is something that is bigger than my love life issues.
I feel quite happy to ignore him if he is there and hope he will do the same with me, that way I can maintain some degree of NC even if we are in the same room. And you are right … why should I even worry about what he thinks….when I read it back this morning I realised that if I am still thinking about how he will react I need to get it into my head that it doesn’t matter anymore as it is nothing to do with me. And in fact who cares if he thinks im putting on an act … I cant control that so forget about it.
Things can sometimes be alot clearer in the morning!
Take a really GOOD friend with you to be support!
Into,
Can you bring along a small group of reliable friends (even one or two) who can act as a “buffer” around you, even just emotionally?
It’s wonderful to be able to do this on your own, but it’s asking a lot of yourself at this early stage to get tested while solo, especially at something as emotionally driven as a memorial. A couple of friends who have your back and can run interference against the AC will allow you to show your support for the deceased and his family without the pressure of having to think about anything else.
Into,
The memorial is being given by the deceased person’s brother? Were you and the deceased very close, or are you very close to the person giving the memorial? If it were me I would offer an alternate way to show support. You’re worried about the ex being there which indicates the feelings of hurt are still there. That’s understandable after 7 yrs. I would not attend. This does not automatically mean that you do not care, because you’re offering an alternative. You can go with a good friend but you will still feel residual pangs of rejection. Is it worth it? Only you know the answer to that question.
Just happened to me today. There’s a guy who I’ve been friendly with for several months and texted him to hang last week, but zero response. When I saw him this week I called him out on it (with humor!) and he did not like it. at. all. To make matters worse, I actually attempted to be polite and friendly when I saw him next (we run into each other often) and he was avoidant and weird, as he has been for the past week or so. I saw him today and finally, after him being a jerk *one* more time, I asked if he had some issue with me. He said no, other than the fact I called him out on his non-response. THAT upset you?! What the what now?? I tried to remain calm and explain that I guess I treat my friends differently (btw, he claims he was drunk and did not remember seeing it.)
I don’t get people that pull a 180 on you, and it is really bugging me that I’m still annoyed by this person. Part of me is also bothered that he didn’t even get to know me, because I know my worth and I deserve better! Natalie–where is the line between being assertive and telling someone all about themselves??
Phoenix, lucky he’s showing you what an unreliable and deceptive person he is early on. He’s also showing you he’s emotionally unavailable – side product being that he doesn’t respect you, an emotionally upfront person – go ahead and flush him, make it a double flush while you’re at it.
Thanks, lizzp. Unfortunately I will have to see him the next few weeks, so my goal is to remain polite/friendly but detach…he moves soon so I won’t have to worry about it.
My family said it probably has nothing to do with me and that he may be an avoidant type (esp with moving soon) so I should not take it personal…so hard not to, and hard not to become jaded with lots of experiences like this!
Phoenix,
I see it a little differently. Texting is such a vague, non-committal way of communicating,especially if you’re asking for a date. This dude did not respond, so there’s your answer, which was “No thanks.” Granted it was rude of him not to respond. But, why pursue it? He’s not your boyfriend. Is this something you’ve done in the past with him – setting up a date via text? If not, he may have felt you were presumptuous to question him and didn’t expect you to call him out on it because he doesn’t owe you anything. A guy doesn’t want to feel pressured or questioned on his behavior if you’re not someone with whom he’s promoting a relationship. It’s not pretty, but there you have it. Let it go. You said he’s moving, anyway.
If you take the first step, you’ve got to be prepared that it may result in rejection. Slow your roll in the future, and don’t be too sensitive because it may not be about you, at all.
Hi Tinkerbell, I have to take issue here. I think Phoenix’s post says that he was disrespectful and rude after a period of friendly and (I’m assuming) respectful interaction – I gained this impression from the fact that Phoenix felt the need to call him on it. I’m guessing that this man hadn’t been on the receiving end of having his messages ignored by Phoenix, and if that’s the case I don’t see why she should make any excuses for him. At the very least I don’t think it’s healthy or good for self esteem to second guess why he was rude. It’s good to just stick with the fact that he was. He’s shown his colours IMO.
Phoenix, I’ve developed rather strong feelings re the whole text messaging thing which I view as inherently problematic. I feel that EA people do themselves a big favour by refusing, period, to use it ourselves and enable it in others – the problem you cite – that this EU made excuses that he never read it or whatever – it seems very typical. Text is basically heaven to these EUS! I know from my own experience that if the interaction pattern has already been set and enabled then it’s too late, usually impossible to alter if the other person gets good gains (psychologically) from continuing. This seems a flush situation for sure, but IMO you could have a serious think about not enabling EUs in the future through participation in text and you may find yourself less disappointed. The good ones will call, the idiots like this avoidant man will flush themselves (yay, why wear out your own finger on the button!) a whole lot quicker.
Thanks guys for the input. The reason why I am so frustrated is this guy was blowing hot for a time and it’s like some switch turned on in his head that he decided I wasn’t worth his time or attention. I racked my brain wondering if I did something to warrant it, but honestly I can’t think of a single thing. This guy went from talking about us hanging out, me including him in group outings, and telling me all about his family/life goals to not even responding to a friendly text. I get we all have our own burdens and issues, but I get really irked when you take it out on someone who doesn’t deserve it!
One last vent: it sucks that society has two labels for women…pushover or bitch. You are either thought a doormat for trying to be patient and understanding of others, or you’re a raging bitch because you assert boundaries and try to have honest, mature, open communication (and don’t take BS.) Men can assert boundaries and they are simply ‘confident.’ Argh.
Phoenix,
Sorry this happened to you. These fools will convey mixed messages in a heartbeat. He was Mr. Nice guy, until you extended the invitation and then he was unreasonably rude by not answering. That’s how they behave. There is no excuse for it. The best thing you can do in the future with the next guy, is let him make the first move as far as asking for a date. It may sound old-fashioned as hell but you avoid situations like this. Now, that is not to say he could’nt have asked YOU for the date and still behaved badly.
Sorry Lizzp. I got the impression that it was a casual friendship and he behaved in a “weird” fashion, several times AFTER she called him out on not responding to text. He even told her he didn’t appreciate her criticism. He may not have liked being called out on his clearly AC behavior, but if it were me I wouldn’t be texting for a date in the first place. Now, there is a preponderance of AC’s around, but I also recognize that we need to use good judgement so that we’re not setting ourselves up to be treated in a manner less than we deserve.
If he’d been acting like an AC BEFORE she texted him, she wouldn’t have done so. He didn’t appreciate it that he wasn’t Mr. Perfect in her eyes. I don’t condone making excuses for him. It was definitely impolite. But she made the decision to connect on the assumption that he was a good guy. Imo, you’ve gotta be careful and reserved until you the person better, in order to avoid this kind of disappointment.
Lizzp,
I am just as confused about how to handle men in a variety of situations as anyone elseon BR. It’s like you’re damned if you do and you’re damned if you don’t. I totally agree with PR when she says that women are general placed in one of two categories by men, the media, etc. You’re either a doormat or a bit–. I don’t want anyone to think I feel I know that much. I DON’T . Dating is harder now than it ever was because of the EU’s communication of choice, texting. Men, especially EUM’s and AC’s use it way too much. I don’t think we need to join in because as women we just naturally need more clarity of dialogue and understanding.
So true, Tink! 🙂 I tend to be an open book & wear my heart on my sleeve…my good friends and family love me for this, but I think others exploit it.
I work/worked in a field that is very male-dominated and have had so many bad experiences romantically that I’ve become very dominant and overly-aggressive in many ways. It’s been hard for me to re-learn that I don’t always need to prove myself or take the lead. I’m also a bit of a romantic (and a recovering people-pleaser) so when I get a crush I tend to get my hopes up and get totally crushed when it doesn’t work out. I really need to learn how to slow myself down and stop seeking happiness/validation from others!
Phoenix, honey, I used to be the exact same way. With maturity and the sometimes battering experiences of life I’ve learned to control it somewhat, but not entirely. It’s tough when you’re that type of person. But just slow down. You don’t have to take the lead. Allow relationship to progress without your trying to direct outcomes. That’s when we get hurt. And, don’t accept shabby treatment.
“I got the impression that it was a casual friendship and he behaved in a “weird” fashion, several times AFTER she called him out on not responding to text. He even told her he didn’t appreciate her criticism. He may not have liked being called out on his clearly AC behavior, but if it were me I wouldn’t be texting for a date in the first place.”
Tinkerbell, I’m with you on all above except from “…but if it were me I wouldn’t be texting for a date…”. To my mind, that is a separate issue. I read your response as saying, really, that she *shouldn’t have* reacted to him to him, or even that she had *no right to* as she had set herself up for disappointment in the first place and he didn’t ‘owe her’ a response.
I feel she did the *right thing by herself* in maturely (as I read it) calling him on it. Why? because she then had the opportunity to see how he responded to being called on bad behaviour, whether he could own it, apologise, admit to carelessness etc. He couldn’t, it’s good to know these things about someone sooner rather than later and it’s a good thing to stand up and do what we feel is right for us.
In a broad sense, this post is about being okay about reacting to lies and duplicity, similar to other posts on calling people on bad behaviour. It’s so important for us to believe ourselves when something feels ‘off’ and to stand up for ourselves and from as early as possible let others know what behaviours are not acceptable to us. If we are having a casual but friendly interaction with someone and find ourselves miffed after they fail to respond to a friendly text to ‘hang out’ (and it’s the lack of response that’s the issue here – of course he is free to reply ‘can’t make it’ or whatever. I never read it as Phoenix asking for a date but as her simply continuing in the established pattern of communication which up until then was mutually working) then we need to take note and ACT rather than ignore or consider that we have no right to bother him with our concerns as he doesn’t owe us anything and we never should have sent the text in the first place even though up until then we had been mutually respectful within this mode of communication. Why should we have to take take a self defeating, second guessing thought pattern like that on board? Much simpler to stick with the gut message.
As I said, I think the whole text mode of communication is setting us up for problems but in this instance it was too late. I can imagine that or take a punt that there would have been no friendly/casual relating with this man if there had been no reliance on text messaging from the get go as he, clearly being EU at the very least, would not have been capable of maintaining a real connection through phone and/or face to face (am assuming again that Phoenix may sometimes see him in RL through work or some other kind of mutual interest).
Hey Lizzp,
I Do feel that Phoenix had the right to stand up for herself. And, yes I was saying technically that if she had not sent the text in the first place she would not have experienced the rejection of his not responding. He was rude not to respond. I guess I was empathizing with the feelings underneath questioning him about not answering. She was hurt and it could have been avoided. That’s why I asked her if texting for the purposes of hanging out was something they routinely did? If not, I wouldn’t have made that first move. Imo, feeling safely comfortable before reaching out to a man is paramount. Like Phoenix, I was the exact same way, “an open book wearing my heart on my sleeve”. It’s very easy to be hurt when that is YOU. So relating to that I advised pulling back and waiting until you’re reasonably sure of the response.
The guy is moving. He may have a lot on his plate. And I’m NOT making excuses for him, nor saying she “had no right to call him out.” In light of the fact that she is a very sensitive young woman I think it’s best to be more reserved. But that’s me.
Your points are very valid and well taken, Lizz as usual.
There are lies of commission and lies of omission. My ex would say he was completely honest and prided himself on it (often saying very cruel things because they were “honest”) but he often “left important things out” that I needed to know or distorted history, taking credit for things that we had had a HUGE fight over before he agreed to them (in our work life for example). These types of lies were often confusing to me and made me think, “what is really happening here? Did I really hear that?
Just got the black and white separation draft separation agreement from my lawyer…deep breath…as she said, much simpler than I thought it would be. I am nervous about presenting it to him but he was never going to do it or even collaborate on it. There is nothing there he didn’t agree to in writing.
However he still wants to pretend this isn’t happening so I am waiting for the payback. I am anxious.
Wish me luck people.
Espresso
I hated dealing with these kinds of things and our financial and childcare arrangements were extremely difficult to resolve because there wasn’t an awful lot to go round and there were certain quirks in our situation that made it very difficult to predict the outcome if we could not agree and had to go to court.
I am wishing you luck – you know you can do this – he may kick off and resist the process, as he is deep in denial, but the bottom line is that you have the right to end your marriage. Eventually he understood that, but it took time; I think you have given your ex enough time and now you have to go legal.
I do feel sad for the hurt I caused him. I feel responsible, because I should never have married him.
But I had to leave.
Espresso, can I gently (and with lots of hugs) point out that your postings are still all about HIM. I would love to hear a post about what your plans are for YOU! I want to hear how your separation agreement is going to help YOU! I want to know what you’re doing to help YOU get off the crazy train of trying to figure him out. It’s time, hon.
I agree with Wiser.
Let’s focus on you, only! Get off the hamster wheel.
You cannot just focus on yourself, with this huge thing hanging over you. You cannot make plans, to any great extent, while there is the uncertainty about finances, living arrangements. Emotionally, it feels like jumping off a very high diving board; rationally, you know you will be fine, but you have to concentrate on that to the exclusion of everything else.
That was my experience, at any rate.
But Mymble realize that the ONE and ONLY similarity in yours and Espresso’s situation is that you are both ended/ending your marriages at the same time. The similarity ends after that. You have children. She apparently does not. The difference in the two experiences is HUGE.
Tinkerbell
I believe espresso does have children, as it happens, albeit they are older. Certainly I recognise a lot of my own situation in what she has written over a period of time, regarding her exes behaviour, financial worries, practical issues about where the ex will go and live (the ex pretending they cannot go anywhere) and
also, we are the same age.
Please don’t be so dismissive.my jaw dropped when I read your comment.
Fine. I apologize.
I agree.
Focus on the important things, not why he is not responding in a respectful manner, or following through. Look at your future.
Allison.
We Brooklynites seem to always be on the same wave length. Speaking of waves, I hope you’re not still recovering from Sandy.
Into…
F*** what ur ex might think. Take care of YOU and people who are important to you. Talk to the brother, if he’s ok w u missing it buy a round of drinks for the group or something and remember your friend in your own way. If the brother really needs you there (and u know can do it) soldier up n go. I promise… you are stronger than you think. But most important…. take care of you.
2Fearce
Thanks…thats exactly what I thought when I re read my post this morning. Who cares what he thinks … (still training my brain to get out of the habit)
I can’t do anything about what goes on in his head and it no longer has any bearing on my future anyway.
I’m in a good place head wise and feel strong so Im going to stop giving it anymore time and consideration … Im sure I will know the right to do by me and everyone else on the night. Once again thanks 🙂
Tinkerbell
I sooo agree; lies of omission are the absolute worst as you are trying to make decisions about others with incomplete/faulty information. Since I now pretty much have to date well outside my home area or date folks here to train in the summer, this is a real problem. You cannot “fact check” with friends and there’s no obvious “social proof” either.
I am struggling with all the lies the ex AC told lies of omission just so he could have his way, lies about having a connection, lies about caring about me etc.
All of the lies he told me have caused me to doubt he ever told me the truth about anything.
But I can’t seem to let go of my anger about all the lies he told. I feel I totally under reacted when the truth came out.
I had an opportunity to let him know I was angry and what exactly what I am angry about not that it had much effect on him.
After that discussion where I kept things civil I cut contact and have been no contact since.
Now I have found my anger has grown out of control and I want to go back one more time and totally and completely over react preferably with a baseball bat.
Does anyone have any tips on how to get past anger?
One lesson learnt is this person always went on about how honest he was as though he had to tell me simply because his actions and words didn’t match. It is now a red flag if someone tells me they are a honest person I will wonder what they are lying about.
Tulipa,
I too have gone through the period where my anger and resentment got worse, not better as the weeks went on. In my case I had to come to the very uncomfortable truth was that I was mostly angry with myself, and I was just projecting it onto him. After being dumped I had taken the “high road” and not told him what I thought of him or expressed any anger. For me, that was a mistake. I needed to stand up for myself and speak the truth out loud – and I didn’t.
So, what to do then? Two things helped. First I had to really feel the anger and get it out so it just didn’t fester inside, and I did so symbolically by beating the crap out of a stone wall with a stick. It wasn’t that I was beating “him” or myself, because that would have been self-hateful, it was just giving the anger expression and giving myself permission to feel it without being guilty.
Then I had to fully acknowledge the source of the anger, which is that I had let myself down in about ten ways during the relationship. I had to feel that, grieve about it and finally forgive myself.
I have been uncomfortable with anger my entire life and only saw it as a purely negative emotion. One of the greatest gifts of the breakup was that I finally learned, through months of therapy, that anger can be a great tool and ally, and an enormous reservoir of energy. So you don’t want to stifle your anger, but you do want it to serve your best interests. I encourage you to explore that side of anger, and use the energy there to focus on caring for yourself.
Thank you Wiser,
Your first paragraph could be written by me, except I did say something to him I just didn’t fully express myself nor do I feel I made myself heard I was just met with excuses and defensive behaviour. But I still felt good for a while that I had spoken up till I released it really wasn’t good enough I was too polite, nice and still emotionally invested.
I do have legitimate reasons to be angry at him but he doesn’t know how angry I am, my anger has no effect on him I’m sure he is just carrying on with his life.
I also suspect you are right underneath it all I am very very angry at myself at all the stupid decisions I made.
I will have to think of some way to get my anger out it is taking on a life of its own which isn’t good.
Forgiveness is a key to all this I agree just which it was easy.
I appreciate your advice and help.
Tulipa,
You didn’t react the way you would have liked to when you had the chance. You were probably stunned regarding such dishonesty. But please give yourself credit for going NC and NOT GOING BACK. Realize that NC is VERY POWERFUL, moreso than words provided you maintain it. DO NOT break NC to go and tell him about himself. That would be a sign of weakness, believe it or not.
Getting past the anger is difficult. The more attention you give it, the longer it will take to recede. You can’t change him and his lies. You can’t undo what’s already done. So you are just torturing yourself by obsessing over it. YOU KNOW WHO HE IS NOW, and he’s through lieing to you because you are NC!!!
Tulipa
The anger is a part of the process. Its very important. .. it’ll stop you from going back and help you build momentum as u head away from jerkus maximus. USE IT… as fuel to walk more, paint, play kickball, volunteer, clean… whatever you need. You have to get it out. At the end of it there is peace. Promise.
Thank you 2Fearce I’m glad there is an end to this anger stage I have been stuck here for months on end. I have made a list of things I can do to help.
Can you share that list, if it’s not too personal?
Hi Keetseel
I just made a list of how I can fill in my spare time more and what jobs I jobs I can do around my house. Things to distract me really and for me to my focus and energy else where rather than on him.
Jerkus maximus! I love it!
Yes, any type of shady behaviour… I was told not to make waves when there’s no need to, following me getting agitated (and believe me I was trying not to to keep the status quo). In other words “don’t put a mirror up to my inadequacies because I’m not man enough to deal with them!”
I’m separated and have kids and property with this person and feel so trapped that I find myself in a constant game of snakes and ladders… Just when I’m climbing, bang! another snake.
I know it’s my cross to bare but all I’ve learned about self worth, self esteem from you Nat doesn’t erase my errors from the past.
You still help me to realise my reactions are normal and that keeps me sane! X
Into
The point of this event is to support your friend. Far different from attending something for entertainments sake. By all means attend and if the ex is there, “give him your back” and don’t get into any situation where he can take you aside and talk. At this point, he may NOT want to converse. Most folks would rather ignore one, make us out to be the “bad guy” than own their s@#$.
Thanks noquay, that had occurred to me … his ego could be bruised so there’s a good chance he will ignore me.
He’s never experienced rejection by me before …The last (and first time) I went NC it was after a few weeks of me trying to convince him not to end things. This time I had learned my lesson so there was no chasing and no contact in any shape or form, at the time I imagined him thinking isn’t this the part where she is supposed to call and reason with me not to end the relationship?
Im going to go with my friend, she knows the score, its quite a large place with 3 areas, Im sure if I feel someone’s eyes burning into the back of my skull I can move to another room!
Mags
This sort of thing must be super common. This is exactly what AC s latest conquest did. We were working together on a project and became friends as we were both runners and kick a$$ chix having man issues. She had a failing marriage, I was a few months post humiliation with the AC who was also working on this project. She knew I was having severe issues with someone on this campus and though I didn’t use names, there is only one male anywhere near my age that’s good looking and intelligent on campus if not in the entire county. Unbeknownst to me at the time as I did not socialize much college wide, he had quite a reputation for f@#$%&* around, even while married. However, I found out about them second hand, overhearing her bragging about it to the person in the office next door. I shut my door and haven’t spoken to her since. I assume she has gotten an ear full from him as it is she who avoids me at the local grocery, at college wide meetings. If and when it blows up in her face, I will be there for her though.
But why should you be?
I was wondering the same thing.
I too was fooled by this guy for two years, I am pretty savvy and suspicious by nature so I am assuming that to her, he look like solid gold from the start. Like me, she was in a very vulnerable place and for her too, options are few to none. Not a good place to be in. She at first did not know that it was him I was having such problems with. The disrespect, dishonesty towards me is on his end. we women do need to stick together. Very ironically, chick #1, the one he overlapped with when he was still married and the one present during my very public humiliation by him, was here today for a meeting. Saw her and about choked on my coffee; she didn’t look too thrilled either. Sometimes this world is waaay too small.
I read a classic line (possibly on here)?? ‘If a man says his ex is a psycho the chances are he made her that way’
we had a whole conversation about that one day on here. There was a bunch of us who all had the same thing in common. Our exes all had a host of psycho exes. It wasn’t hard to figure out why they were psycho. lol We came to the conclusion a psycho ex was a huge red flag!!!
I was once told that lying habitually is a disease. Even though it is hard for me to wrap my mind around that theory, I do see how it could be possible. There is nothing more frustrating than to have someone who knows they are lying, know that you know they are lying, stand there and lie to your face. Not to mention, flip the script and make it your issue. For a person to be so skilled in this area, there really must be something more going on within.
I had christened the ex as Mr. Liar in lieu of the lies he liberally told me. Rationally I know that the end of our relationship has spared me a lot of grief. But the last two days have been difficult. I find myself feeling hopelessly sad, not because I miss him, but because I feel that I will never find true, long-lasting love. My optimism has not hit rock bottom. Still I feel as though I am slowly sinking in an abyss of despair. I wish I could erase all memories of him – memories of his lies that are weighing me down.
It seems as though my faith in relationships has been damaged irreparably. I feel robbed of the joys I wanted so much. Desire sets one up for disappointment and loss – this is what I now think. But the denial of desire is no better an alternative – one feels dessicated, shriveling up inside day by day. I wonder if the rest of my life will be spent in this ever-deepening feeling of despair and doubt?
I was hopeful and happy before I dated him. I looked forward to things. Now I just feel robbed. Discarded. Bruised.
I cannot stop others from telling lies and I cannot always detect lies. I want to care less. I want to become more resilient – lies should not hurt one so much.
Lies hurt Nigella. They just do. It isn’t a flaw to be affected by being lied to. Like Nat says, it’s normal to be mad and upset because it’s a betrayal from someone we trusted or gave the benefit of the doubt. Becoming less affected by lies isn’t a simple solution. The answer is not staying to hear another one. Letting the wounds heal without rubbing (more) dirt in them will help you be resilient. Not so you can handle lies, but so you can take action in your won best interest when it does happen. We owe that to ourselves.
Thanks, Selkie.
You said it in a nutshell: not rubbing dirt in wounds & not staying to hear another lie is the key to being resilient & protecting oneself.
I will adhere to this fervently for my own sake.
Nigella, someone else here said to you to take all the time you need…the pain may lessen as you interact with other people (not to mean dating)who honour your trust. I can’t really talk as am going through something that may be quite similar,it’s like circling round the core of this ball of vulnerability and fragility that I imagine as having started to blossom with him (the man who up and left me not long after I opened my heart to him over a year ago)…not confident I have the the ability to make it alright again. I feel, still, the full force of being duped and deceived, unable to separate this from the loss. I’m trying “letters to a Young Poet” by Rainer Marie Rilke (again)…hoping to take it as a sign post pointing in the right direction. Really I have to make sure that this time something changes inside after these terrible, terrible pains. But it’s not the time to think right now, there’s so much accumulated pain in me that it has to out..when that’s done perhaps there will be space for the new. On holidays in three weeks time for 6 weeks. Am going to UK (London) with son to see my bros, maybe a cousin. I know that this will help me, I planned it carefully back in June when I felt like I was close to losing my mind. What you’re experiencing is very human Nigella, though yes..very lonely..it’s that feeling of being alone that may be the hardest. You say words have been your saviour and as Rilke speaks to this, you may want to give him a try xo
I think the hurt and pain we suffer as a victim of lies, deception, manipulation is far more extreme than a punch in the face. The totality of his/her utter lack of respect is unfathomable and as a consequence it is unbearable. Nigella and Lizzp, I pray with my whole heart that both of you will recover from this trauma to your psyche in a reasonable amount of time. Christmas holidays are a very poignant time and many folks are prone to sadness and remembrance because of some kind of loss. Lizz, it’s great that you are going to London. I do feel it will help to lift some of your gloom. It’s a very strong positive step. Nigella, you need to MAKE PLANS, NOW. You may not feel up to it but it’s best for you.
Believe me, you DO NOT want to be moping around at home or anywhere else. You want to put forth maximum effort to pick yourself up. Get out and be with people who undoubtedly love you. I think when we’ve been deeply wounded we change. There is no way you can’t. Our natural human instincts are self protection and survival. Those feelings will come into play stronger and stronger as time passes. Time can be the supreme healer if you allow it to be. Best wishes for you both. XX Tink.
Tinkerbell,
Thank you very much for your kind note. It helps to be told in no uncertain terms that someone understands what I am going through, and cares enough to tell me that I can change for the better.
I am looking forward to winter holidays. My plans involve plenty of interaction with friends and family members. I know these people care about me and I enjoy their company. On the whole, I am trying my best to focus on the positives. Sometimes my optimism takes a big dip though. It has bounced back for now.
I hope you are doing well too. Sending you a warm hug.
Lizzp,
Thank you for this thoughtful note. Years ago I tried reading “Letters to a Young Poet”. But prepping for the LSAT took over my life & I never returned to Rilke for his words of wisdom. I’ll dig up my copy this weekend. I hope you find his words consoling as well as empowering enough to create the change that you clearly desire.
For now I’m coping with feelings of vulnerability & fragility primarily by focusing on my work – this is how I feel more secure, self-dependent, and satisfied. Emotionally, I’m just not prepared or interested in getting too close to anyone – even as friends. But, as you said, at times one can feel quite lonely. I guess as long as I don’t wallow in that well of loneliness, things should be fine. Today, I’m feeling a lot better than I did a week ago. Looking forward to some weekend activities.
I don’t think I’ll be able to open my heart to anyone anytime soon. But I don’t want to shrivel up inside. So I’m counting my blessings and trying to make the best of my time: there is a lot I hope to do, things for which I don’t need a romantic partner in my life. I do need allies, people capable of sharing my perspective and supporting my interests. I’m committed to building relationships with the right people to achieve success in my goals. It didn’t take long for me to realize that Mr. Liar had no interest in appreciating my commitment to my goals, let alone offering any help to me. However much he hurt me through his lies, I feel good knowing that my tolerance for disrespect is now extremely low. Eventually, I hope I’ll get over the fact that I made the mistake of caring for someone so duplicitous.
I’m sorry to hear of the pain you continue to feel but happy to hear about your travel plans to London. To cheer you up and to show my appreciation of your words, I wish I could take you to some of my best-loved cafes. For now, here is a suggestion: 42° Raw in the Royal Academy of Arts is a fun place to hang out.
I’m glad that you’re not finding quick-fix remedies for the pain you are feeling. Things are going to get better for you. I’m sure you’ll find a way out of the doldrums. I can’t speak for you but I’m upset that a person had enough power over me to make me feel as low as I have in the past few months. It’s my discomfort with this attachment to him that is motivating me to work harder on myself. Do you know what motivates you to care for yourself? For your sake, I hope that no one ever again toys with your sense of self-confidence & self-worth. You deserve to be treated with respect & affection.
One of the things I really like about you is your clear disdain for casual sex. I can’t understand how commonplace it has become for many people to have hook-ups bereft of any emotional attachment. It’s astonishing the extent to which emotions – such as compassion and care – have been devalued. In any case, we can’t change others. I’m sure things will change for the better for you with your consistent effort.
I have been with my boyfriend for almost a year and we live together. We met online and his profile said he was divorced. I asked him how long he had been divorced and he said since October. I wasn’t interested in dating someone who was in the process of divorcing or who got divorced yesterday. I agreed to go out with him and we hit it off. I recently discovered through my counties court docket that my boyfriend filed for divorce this past April and it was finalized May 31, 2013. He has been married our entire relationship and lied about it. I am extremely upset and feel like I don’t trust him anymore. He admitted he lied and apologized. We took some time apart and are working on things but I still feel confused and upset. Should I give him another chance or end it.
Sissy,
Hell no! This is huge!
If someone can lie about their marital status, God only knows what else they could lie about.
I would never trust him again!
“I am extremely upset and feel,like I don’t trust him any more.” If you read Natalie’s articles you will come to know that trust and respect is the core of love. Last Oct. he may have mentally and emotionally felt divorced, ready to move on and find someone new. Posted for a girl on the internet and found you, hit it off, finalized his separation, apologizes to you. What next? You don’t trust him. You don’t love him.
Sissy,
I agree with Allison and SP. That is a HUGE lie. You can’t trust him. People met online can tell you ANYTHING. Who do you go to in order to get the truth. if you checked the county court docket, you must have had some suspicion. Why didn’t you do that BEFORE moving in together. You need to kick him out, or leave, whatever the case may be. DON’T continue down the road of pain and disappointment.
This post is priceless. I’m sure I’ll read it many more times. It reassures me that I did the right thing by reacting to the shady behavior of the ex – of course he could neither silence nor rile me up, so he dumped me instead.
Deception is a serious issue for me. I want to do whatever I can to ensure that I protect myself from deceptive people. Instead of invalidating my feelings or allowing someone else to discount them, I’m learning to recognize & honor them – thanks to posts of this sort.
Right now I fear lies more than I trust myself to be able to pick up on them and confront the offenders in the most effective manner. But hiding or acting like an easy prey is not an option. Must continue to learn to speak the truth to myself and to others.
Each time one accepts a lie it is like swallowing poison – makes life more and more toxic. I want to be free of lies.
Sissy, is your relationship above board in every way? I like the fact that he is truly divorced now. He is truly able to have both feet in your relationship.
I am not jumping on the AC bandwagon with this one just yet. Only you know if there have been other lies that could destroy your relationship.
In my best relationship, the man was married. You would never have known it because it did not interfere in any way with our time together. He stayed the night, we spent all kinds of time together. After 3 months together he sat me down to tell me he was married. His wife lived in a different state, with his daughter. In my case, it was more like he was “not divorced” rather than “married”.
When he told me, it was a 20 minute conversation, and had no negative impact on me or the relationship. It was no big deal in my mind, and I could see he told me because he wanted to bring things above board. Since I was not seeking marriage, it did not bother me. We were together for four years and it was a pretty happy time.
Only you know if this is a symptom of a deeper issue.
Elgie-Thank you for responding. I wish I could say that there is nothing else in our relationship that has been questionable, but that isn’t the case. I have never caught him in any other lies, but being lied to about something like being divorced when you aren’t is a big deal to me. It makes me wonder if there are other lies because we all know that one lie leads to another lie and another most times.
If I try and discuss the issue in an adult way he gets mad and basically tells me to get over it. All I am trying to do is work through it in a positive way so we can have a better relationship.
He seems to get mad over everything I do. He doesn’t like my tone of voice or I didn’t buy enough food at the grocery store. I feel like I am walking on egg shells.
For 2 months we barely had sex and I would ask him what was wrong and he would never tell me. He was always tired or sick or would rather eat and watch tv. That took a toll on me and my security in the relationship. Now he says it was bc he was depressed, yet instead of saying that he let me believe he was cheating on me for 2 months!!!
Sorry this is so long. For me it is like I know I am getting to the point where I have had enough. I am just trying to build my self-esteem so that I will be able to walk away.
Sissy,
He’s trying to manage down your expectations even more. Sounds like it may be working.
Sissy, he has not been respectful or honest, please remember this.
I would be hurt and upset too if I found out my boyfriend was married, and I, unknowingly,had been the other woman, and now I am the REBOUND!
Personally, I would have ended this relationship as soon as I found out he had lied about his marital status because he’s dishonest, duplicitous, and selfish.
He didn’t care about what you wanted when you told him you didn’t want to date someone who was recently divorced, and he probably doesn’t care about what you want now.
You are now the rebound, and he unfortunately is using YOU to make the transition out of his marriage.
How dare he put you in this position!
Plus, this dude is telling you who he is: he is a person who will do whatever he wants regardless of how you feel to get what he wants, and he doesn’t give a flying fig what position he puts you in or how many lies he has to tell you to get you there.
And to top it all off, you are now left the daunting task of trying to build trust with a person who has proven himself UNTRUSTWORTHY.
How is this in your best interest?
I’m really sorry this happened to you, but, personally, I would cut my losses and end the madness. You deserve so much better.
It seems like you knew something was amiss when you looked him up in the county records…sounds like you didn’t trust him, and you were right not to trust this dude. Ok, so you listened to your gut once, now listen to your gut now, and enforce your boundaries. I know it’s not easy, but what do you want an end to the pain or more pain down the line?
Take care. xx
Sissy, you met him online and moved in together in less than a year! What makes you feel you know this man? YOU DON’T. Please save yourself and get away from him. He should have confessed his marital status within 30 minutes. That way you would have know the score right off the bat. HE IS A LIAR.
Elgie,
I don’t get it! The foundation of your relationship was built on lies! Why was this OK?
You said that you did not want to get married, but wasn’t there a wife and children to consider? I’m sorry, but your post was so nonchalant regarding how your behaviors were affecting others.
The only reason that he told you, as it wasn’t as much work to keep it hidden. Nothing more. He’s a cheat!
Why not look for someone single, who is not marriage minded?
Elgie – I am not quite sure how your “best” relationship was with a married man? Yes, he was married, not “not divorced”.
You deserve so much better, and so did his wife and daughter.
I fail to see how it could NOT have had a negative impact on you. You were basically number 2 (if not 3) in his life.
Thanks Mymble – yeah, it is sad …no question about it and exhausting too. I am tired of feeling mean – there are/were so many pressures and in me too for just going on like we were…the ex wouldn’t have cared..he actually was rather comfortable. Every day he drives me crazy in a new and unique way.
It felt like a life and death matter for me.
Hope you are doing okay and better than okay! Sending you a hug from across the ocean or continent or wherever.
You too espresso.
You will definitely be okay, I promise you, and actually so will he, if he chooses to.
Well, after 26 months of crazymaking drama, I am ready to go NC. It’s day two. I’ve tried and tried to understand him, to forgive him, to work with him. He loves me as much as he can but he’s just too neurotic and f***ed up.
The last straw came on Sunday, when he admitted he had cancelled our Friday dinner (no start time, just “when you get here”) because I called him and said I was going to stop for a quick drink with my coworkers and would be there in about 45 minutes.
The irony is, he spends an hour on his bike trainer every evening after work. I usually get there before he’s done and end up waiting around or starting dinner myself. If I hadn’t called him, he never would have known or noticed. I was trying to be communicative and courteous.
Is anyone out there starting NC? It feels good right now, but I worry that by Thanksgiving I’ll be depressed. Thanksgiving is the most depressing time of year for me anyway.
My bf was just caught again with a profile on a dating website. Two years ago he did the same thing. He met some tramp online and ended up sleeping with her multiple times. When she found out about me, she continued to see him anyway. I think it was one of the most painful times of my life. Not only did i have to deal with his betrayal….but she would text me with pics of his watch, clothing at her house…..pics of herself in lingerie and she even created fake facebook profiles to contact me. All the while he claimed he was through with her. Anyways, i guess my point is that he’s WELL AWARE how much hell i was put through when this happened. How incredibly devastated i was. Yet here he is…..doing the same shit. Risking our relationship. Again. Risking me getting hurt. Again. I found out about the dating website crap innocently one night as he was in the kitchen and i was in the bedroom. He left his cell phone face up next to me. I wasnt looking through it or even AT it, for that matter. But a msg from the website was sent to his phone from some woman. And his cell phone screen lit up. I looked down at it, and recognized the dating website icon. He denied it at first. Then admitted he did it bc he was “bored” and never met one person. I say, who cares? The fact that he snuck behind my back & did this again speaks volumes about his character. And if i didnt see that msg that night, i bet my life he’d STILL have a profile. And that’s frightening. I want out of this shitty azz relationship. He wants to work it out. He says this happened 3mos ago…..like that’s a lifetime ago. Trust has been an issue for years. Seven yrs together and he’s still doing this? I finally feel ready to accept being dishonest and disloyal is just who he is. And i want out.
Jennifer,
You should have dumped his ass the first time. I cannot imagine how humiliating all that was.
Don’t waste another 7 years!
One of the last things my ex said to me was, “You don’t know me.” And I don’t.
I’ve been an illusion-driven-escapist, ever since I can remember, as a child, wanting to be Bewitched.
Now a day-job artist, I paint men with my imagination, and then I smoke my masterpieces in my head, and as you can imagine charming, intelligent, smoooooth AC’s give me a better ‘hit,’ with hella pep in my step!
When I’m high on fantasy, I love the feelings, and I’m running hot, but when reality shines a light, eh, I’m running warm to cold.
I started smoking fantasy as a child; it was my drug of choice; I decided I didn’t want to drink, toke, chomp, or tap like my siblings–the fantasies seemed safe. They were free, and I could access them whenever I needed to escape from one of my mom’s violent tirades, or twelve hour speeches, …a science class, where the teacher droned…waiting nervously right before I had to do something I was terrified of doing. And best of all, the fantasies protected me from what would have been devastating for me to face as a child–my family psychoses.
So to the topic at hand, I’ve been going over and over my last fight with my ex about his boundary busting behavior, wondering if I over-reacted, and the work has been hard because of my skewed reality.
I now realize, I was right, and I wasn’t over-reacting–his behavior was disgusting and unacceptable to ME, so I’m glad I ended the relationship.
The second guessing resulted from my inability to reconcile the fantasy version of him with the real him–er, he wasn’t who I imagined him to be in my illusion-driven-escapist mind.
However, everything I do know about him wasn’t a fantasy, and he isn’t a narc, or a monster, but he is self-fish, spoiled, b*stard who doesn’t know how to treat women.
But, how many stones can I throw when I’ve been smoking him all this time?
I don’t hate him; heck, I don’t even know him, and he doesn’t know me, Sure I have compassion for me; I love me, but how could I be wide-eyed if he deems me a self-serving b*tch?
The elephant is gone. I don’t get high and go to the zoo anymore. I’m just trying to get through this stage of withdrawal at the park.
Thank you Natalie and BR! And I’m shouting out to the rest of my village. Sending you all love and reality-light! 😮
Sometimes I question whether I’ve over-reacted to boundary busting because I really do tend to over-react: I’ve got one set of emotions that come from my child self after I’ve been triggered, AND I have another set of emotions that come from the situation at hand.
I try to honor both sets of emotions, but it’s difficult to filter out the child self emotions, so the boundary buster may get double-stuff-outrage( or sometimes I realize the person didn’t bust a boundary, yet something the person did triggered a childhood wound, and my child self reacted).
I imagine things will get better as I heal my childhood wounds, but in the meantime I’m vulnerable to script flippers, and it gets confusing sometimes trying to stick to the real issue.
Jennifer
Seven years of this?! He doesn’t give a tinkers damn about your feelings. Dump his a$$ pronto, then get STD tested. You only know about the times he was CAUGHT pulling this crap; rest assured its probably been throughout your relationshit. He ain’t gonna change and you do not deserve this.
*SCREEE_EEECH!* Sissy, that’s me putting on my Fred Flintstone foot brakes! And turning this car around 180 degrees!
That married-then-not-married man is P/A and they are difficult at BEST to deal with.
I say don’t walk away, I say RUN away. Quick! Before he starts to make you doubt your own sanity. I cannot deal with a walking-on-eggshells relationship. I grew up in a house like that and now I abhor tension and conflict and it turned me into an unhealthy codependent.
But if you feel he is the man for you, then be prepared to do a lot of mental gymnastics with this guy, be prepared to have your needs ignored depending on his mood, be prepared for always being the adult in the relationship.
Allison, don’t know what to tell ya. Sorry you can’t see it. It was a beautiful relationship, based on a deep trust. I’ve never since experienced that level of bonding with a man. I felt so loved…I know he loved me. After four years we were still holding hands and wanting to be close to each other. We shared ordinary times together and it was great. So many great memories. You have often expressed “all or nothing” views: If a man lies about one thing he’s a future AC; if he doesn’t call after you contact him, he’s a potential AC. You don’t brook any character frailty in your potential partners. Which eliminates everyone, because we all have frailties. My view is I think we have to look at the whole picture of the person. When I met that MM, how was he to know what his feeling for me might turn into…so no need to give me his life story during the first few dates – it could be a casual thing that dies in a few weeks. I certainly don’t give my life story to every man I date. But one month turned into two, then three, and we were both happy and wanting to see more of each other – not like one of us was just biding time waiting for something better. And him sitting me down to tell me was because he cared about me and wanted to be open and honest about his status going forward. I was oblivious to his status and he could have left me there – he did not want to live the lie. He and the wife lived separate lives and lived in separate states. That worked for them and I had no issue with his being married. I never once experienced an “other woman” existence. No late nite departures, unexplained absences, secret phone calls, no wife/child drama…..he just was not single. Maybe if we were still together, the marriage issue may have reared up if I started to want marriage as I age. But that “marriage” desire has never been my thing. I just want something steady, stable, secure, and loving….with room to breathe.
Now……the married AC that brought me here is a bona fide AC. He was steady and stable, but it was not secure and loving. And he is married and living with the wife and kids and very comfortable with lying. And the whole time I was with him, things felt wrong on several levels. Even physically, I got a case of the runs twenty minutes before every date. I did not find BR because I was hurt by the AC, but because I wanted to figure myself out – why did I want to hold on to nothing? I know a good relationship and this was not it.
Elgie, “I’m married” is hardly someone’s life story. It’s clear you didn’t care he had a wife. Did the wife care he had you?
Elgie
If it’s very important for you to have space then married men are ideal. We’ve had a few very independent-minded women on BR who’ve been with married men. Sometimes the relationships are good, but they certainly have no future.
Even so, there’s no shortage of single men who don’t want to get married, I wonder what it is about married men in particular which is the draw.
Elgie,
If he’s married, he shouldn’t be dating! Period!
What’s the deal with married men? Do you consider the impact on the family members? So wrong and hurtful!!!!!
There’s a lot of single men out there, I will never understand why anyone would prefer someone who is already in a committed relationship.
Yes. If someone was not honest about their marital status, or something as significant, they would not get get another chance. I would ask yourself, why you do?
I think Mags question ‘”Did the wife care he had you?” gets to the point of this post.
I’m married, and dating, and looking for a long term relationship, and not interested in marriage (got that t-shirt 3 times) and the arseface ex sure as heck couldn’t care less who I have as he’s playing happy families with the future Mrs Arseface that he cheated on me with for six months plus.
In Australia you must be separated for one year before you can divorce and after that it’s a pretty straightfoward procedure if parties generally agree. My year is done but I’m waiting on the ex to initiate and pay for the divorce (I’m quite sure future Mrs Arseface is pushing hard for it). I’m not in any hurry to get divorced as I’m not rushing to throw myself into the next relationship. I’m slowing my roll and taking time for the current date to unfold. If things work out then that person would definitely have a future with me.
I would add that am up front with anyone I date that I am separated, not divorced as it is a very pertinant piece of information in a relationship and one that I think Elgie’s MM should have given her as soon as there was a date never mind anything else. So far no one has batted an eyelid. Maybe that’s because of the way divorce works here.
I have also in the past been in a very unhealthy relationship with an AC MM who ended up leaving his wife for me and then eventually, of course, left me for the next replacement model so I know from painful experience that MOST MM/Ws mean no good.
So the label/legal status ‘married’ can be something other than a committed relationship and assuming that ALL MM/Ws are AC/EU etc has, like most absolutes, it’s exceptions.
FWD
I agree – I’m in the same situation, legally separated but not divorced and I feel that I would be able to have a committed relationship – my marriage is not legally over but in my heart it is and has been for a long time. My parents were separated and each with new partners for a couple of years before they legally ended the marriage. But it was well and truly over a long time before that. Still being legally married, for me, is an Amber – something to take note of and be very careful about but not a flat out red. The reality is that this does happen a lot, people are sometimes ready to move on before the legalities are finalised. And sometimes people can have severed the legal tie, or never been married at all, but are still umbillically tied to their ex.
I think it’s important, for me, that the financial and childcare issues are concluded with binding documents. That means the divorce will be a
formality with no wrangling and minimal to and fro. If a person still has all that to go through, that would probably be a red flag.
Thankfully I made sure the financial arrangements for my divorce/separation were agreed on, written up and made binding within months of separation. And I haven’t had any contact whatsoever with the Arseface for eight months.
I agree that anyone still negotiating and embroiled in finance/child matters should be steered well clear of. And the more time since the initial separation the better.
Beyond that it comes back to the BR basics, does the person treat me with care, respect and consideration etc etc. Do actions match words?
I think these things are more important than a black and white category because if you put someone into a ‘clear’ category because they aren’t married (as opposed to not divorced) or they’re kind to animals etc then you can let your BR critical thinking drop and either waste time and emotion on an AC/EU or pass up a decent person because you’re not thinking for yourself.
Elgie,
Do you mean to tell me that the ACMM was your second married man? What is wrong with you? All cheating married men are AC’s. It makes no difference what the circumstances are. The #1 whose wife lived another state is no less of an AC than #2 who you call “bona fide”. I’m sorry Elgie, but something is seriously wrong with your wanting, even seeming to prefer someone’s husband. If things were so beautiful and there was so much love between you and #1, why didn’t he get a divorce? But, then again. why would he?
Selkie I loved yr reply to this post
nat I totally relate to this. ex now deceased ac used to accuse me over reacting wen I caught him out lying also.
everyone, just a little good news. I was able to secure a small but more stable income level this wk. this means I can now afford to buy my own food.
so, house is saved, AND I can afford to live (just)
next mountain to tackle, rescuing my edctn. already on it. wont b easy. wish me luck. will need it.
luv to all xxx
teachable- Good news!!! 🙂 🙂 🙂 Thanks for the update. 🙂
Teach.
That’s wonderful. Onward and upward. Now your holiday time and the coming year can be MORE joyful.
The exAC never accused me of ‘overreacting’ because I never did. I was too busy trying to be the perfect woman so he would love me. Looking back I ‘under reacted’ to everything – or if I did get angry (on occasion) I quickly back tracked. No two ways about it I was PATHETIC. I now wished I’d been more authentic, not stuffed down my feelings and metaphorically clubbed him over the head with more than justified ‘reactions’.
Teach,
This is fantastic news! I’m climbing those mountains right alongside you and have an interview tomorrow morning. I’ve also accepted an invitation to a party on Saturday and this will be the first time out for me for a long, long time. One small step at a time. Luv to you too, xxx.
Lilly,
You go girl!!!!
Have a fantastic time!!!!
Lilly- How wonderful!!! 🙂 🙂 🙂 Good luck on your interview and have fun at the party! 🙂
Lilly!
Great news on job prospect. I have my fingers crossed for you. Go to that party looking fabulous – FOR YOU!
Slowly but surely, eh Teach? 🙂 I hear ya. I’m fighting my own “slow but sure” battles here, and things are slowly starting to come together. I’m rejuvenating and it sounds like you are too. Maybe at a snail’s pace, maybe faster, but at least you are going in an upward direction. I’m impressed as always, Teach, and I wish you well.
Teach, glad to hear you’re doing better and getting up that mountain. One step at at time is still a step forward. 🙂
Allison-
I really, really wish i did. But i was such an emotional mess back then. Nothing and no one was able to reach me. I am so saddened when i think about how badly he treated me and the terrible things i tolerated. I am not the same person i was back then and for that, i’m grateful. Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post.
Jennifer,
You’re in a better place now! You will no longer tolerate this deceit or disrespect!
Good luck!
Noquay-
I agree. Sadly, it took me seven years of hoping and wishing he’d become a better man. Seven years is a long time. If he hasnt made any real changes by now, he isnt going to. I know this now. And finally feel strong enough to leave him. Thanks for your comment.
@Jennifer, 7yrs is a long time and it won’t be easy walking away but know that day by day it will get easier. Some will be harder than others but it will.
Out of interest are you guys living together or have any children? Because that sometimes keeps people in relationships and I’m wondering if that’s why it was hard to walk away the first time??
Hugs xx
Another one I needed to hear, Nat. My ex is in denial with a bad case of weaselitis. She tried to invalidate my feelings and make me feel bad for taking offense. And just when I think “Maybe she has a point . . .” I read this. Thank you
“Weaselitis”–ha! Love it, John! Seems to be a pandemic, eh? 🙂 Good to hear you’re not listening to any BS.
I just had a friend accuse me of slapping his face at his wedding reception. I am in total shock, as I did no such thing. No one would corroborate his story. His new, young wife still wants to stay friends as she moved here from far away and I have been a good support for her. I’ve known him for about 10 years as a local business owner, neighbor and friend. Several people told me he has a history of “burning bridges” with people, and not to worry about it, they believed ME not HIM. I was so upset and sleepless, I called in to work on Monday. I really like the new wife, and don’t want to abandon her, but I dont want or need this psycho-drama in my life. I have been an awesome friend and neighbor and done much for them. Some other friends told me, “this is the first step in his plan….isolation…he doesnt want her to have you to count on.” I believe once a person shows you who they are, believe them the first time. He has been married twice before, has 3 kids, and the girl he married is 12 years younger on her first marriage. I feel sorry for her and I feel like I never knew this person. Now, I will be MUCH more careful who I let into my home and life…still in shock. Thanks for listening all.
WOO
I feel for you, that is a shocking deliberate lie – sometimes lies are subtle and confusing but that kind of in your face outright invention is scary and weird. It probably is a way of scaring you off, as you suspect. Unfortunately his wife will probably believe him because if she doesnt, where does that leave her and her marriage ? The man she married as a malicious liar? You can try to stay friends with her but I suspect it will not work – he will force her to choose and gaslight her . I have been involved with a man who lied and lied but I chose to accept his lies as the truth – I was young and hadn’t encountered this kind of thing and I was smitten. Looking back I feel sorry for silly little me. How obvious it all is in hindsight.
Thanks everyone for your feedback. I wished I had known some people responded to my post earlier. Is there a way to reply directly under a person’s comment?
Elgie, you need not elaborate about your MM escapades. I definitely agree that you don’t think you can do better. The thing is, hon, THEY KNOW you don’t think much of yourself BECAUSE you wouldn’t give them the time of day if you did. Thus, you set yourself up for bad treatment. In my case, the MM told me over the phone that I “did not love myself enough”. I think that was my wake-up call because I have not and will never forget how I felt when he said those words.
So true Tinkerbell….
They show us who they are, but at the same time We show them who we are, and for some of them it’s Dove Season.
Cam,
You are so right!
Vicky,
Hit reply below their comment.
I don’t get why the separate states/separate lives thing doesn’t weigh in to the equation…but, oh well. Thanks, Furry White Dogs, for sharing an alternate view.
I’ve been hit on, as we all have, by married colleagues, husbands of acquaintances, and the odd married guy at the pub, turned them all down. However, I’ve been involved with 3 MM. MM1 and MM2 lied about being married. MM1 is the good guy who ‘fessed up. MM2 revealed he was married AFTER I dumped him – the relationship was a bust even though I thought he was single. MM3 is the AC who brought me here – he hits on every woman he can and I think he must have an open marriage because he is so openly a player, hangs out at strip clubs, grabs boobs of colleagues – none of whom complain because he is very charming and Idris Elba good-looking and Lebron tall.
MM3 is the only one who told me on date #1 that he is married and will never leave his wife. So my experience has been that those who announce their marriage at the beginning are the players. They are absolving themselves of any responsibility for your feelings or well-being.
I don’t choose MM, but I did feel an element of safety when I realized I was involved with a MM. Safe that my life won’t be changed too much, he is just a visitor, no permanent changes in my way of living are imminent. Single guys don’t believe a woman isn’t hoping for the “brass ring” of marriage. I was f-buddies with a single P/A EUM before dumping him for MM3. When I told the single guy I was considering seeing a MM, he decided to big brother me and say “You know he only wants one thing. Sex.” To which I replied “Oh? And what is it that you want me for?” The single man had no answer. But, somehow, he viewed himself as more valuable because he was single.
I don’t want to compete with other women. Single men are ”competed for”. I did not relate to the “replacement” post. I’ve always said “if it’s not mutual, it’s not worth it.” You feel you can do better than having me as your woman? Go to it. Get lost.
I think the reason I hung on to AC is because I’m not sure *I* can do better. Yeah…I can find a better sexx partner, but I am not sure there is a better overall package. He lost out on me because he could not resist showing me his ass. In this case it wasn’t mutual because HE wasn’t participating. I kept hoping he would.
Elgie
That is some mental gymnastics to say that a man who tells you straight up that he’s married is less of an AC than one who waits until you’re attached .
They are all variations of “unavailable”. Granted, not all unavailable men will treat you badly, but they are still messing with your head.
Whether someone is married is very pertinent information. It’s not up to him to decide that “different states” makes it irrelevant. In your case, you didn’t care but not everyone thinks that way. He took the decision on himself to decide what you should know and when. It’s not like disclosing a medical condition or a driving ban, he’s married! It’s very basic information.
It may be fine to date when you’re separated or in an open relationship or whatever, but at least tell people so they can decide for themselves!
You say that single men are competed for. But these married men are out there being competed for. They’re unfaithful.
Elgie,
They don’t weigh in because he’s married! You can spin it anyway you want, but the relationship is very selfish and destructive.
I have several friends who have been on the receiving end of this pain: the wives never trusted again, and the kids had messed up relationship issues, as well. There are consequences. How can you ignore this?
Number three was the only honest one in the bunch, even though he seems like a complete sleaze ball. The other two were simply liars, and who knows, they probably had more action on the side.
The fact that you find MM safe, is quite disturbing. Why are you so scared of letting someone in and having a healthy relationship? Why do you value yourself so little?
Try to consider the others that are affected, not yourself!
Elgie- You’re getting a lot of flack here and I agree with what everyone else is saying about your involvement with MMs. The thing that stuck out to me the most was when you said that MM1 told you after 3 months that he was married as things were starting to progress. There’s just so much wrong with this picture (sorry for my insensitivity). It’s a user’s mentality, which is what Nat’s post is all about. It’s fine to lie to people we don’t care about as it’s just a date or two? So…the man/woman I’m on a date with is only there to sooth my loneliness, boredom or whatever. Basically, s/he is my social/sexual toy. Should I actually start to like this person and see him/her as a human being, then maybe I’ll start telling the truth? Ew. Again, I’m sorry for my insensitivity but I’m speechless…
Elgie-
“You feel you can do better than having me as your woman? Go to it. Get lost.
I think the reason I hung on to AC is because I’m not sure *I* can do better. Yeah…I can find a better sexx partner, but I am not sure there is a better overall package.”
You don’t see the contradiction here, how you’re crazy-making yourself?
Elgie R.,
“I don’t choose MM, but I did feel an element of safety when I realized I was involved with a MM. Safe that my life won’t be changed too much, he is just a visitor, no permanent changes in my way of living are imminent.”
Elgie, being with an MM is NOT safe. It is risky behavior. It might feel safe to you because you are resting in your comfort zone, where you don’t have to give of yourself, and be vulnerable.
Natalie wrote an article about how we will often take unhealthy risks in our uncomfortable comfort zones because we think we can predict the outcome, but we are afraid to take healthy risks outside of our comfort zone because we are afraid of the unknown.
You might think you can predict and control the outcome in a relationship with a MM, but you can’t, just read some of the stories on this site.
There was a comment that Natalie wrote once; I don’t know where it is, but she explained why some women get involved with MM’s, and it was filled with compassion. Maybe someone else can post it for you.
I like the fact that you are trying to improve the relationship you have with yourself, as I am as well.
We all deserve so much better.~
Take Care.
All this talk of AC/ MM has me ‘reacting’ big time. I just have to get this out or I’ll explode. If a MM ever, ever tries to hit on me again I will not be responsible for my actions! That ‘relationship’ was the most heartbreaking, soul destroying experience of my life and no doubt his wife’s too if she had found out. I’m left with completely destroyed self-esteem, guilt, shame, regret, immense sadness, grief and anger. He has moved on as if nothing ever happened. I never felt safe the whole time I was involved with him, not ever. The whole thing was built on lies, lies and more lies from him and denial, fantasy and stupidity from me. I can’t go back and change things, but I swear if he ever contacts me again he is going to cop it! I can feel anger bubbling up inside me and it’s not like me. I’m not sure what to do with it…….
Elgie,
Just because you “don’t choose MM’s” doesn’t make it okay. You are clearly AVAILABLE for that type of liason. If you’re EU, which it’s clear that you are, engage with the unmarried/unattached man for your own sake. There’s an old R&B song, that says, “there’s no future in loving a married man. If I can’t see you when I want, I’ll see you when I can”.
Does that future appeal to you? One-down forever?
Many people come to this website to figure out why they do not have a satisfying love relationship. They may have a history of sexual liasons, are struggling with an unhappy situation, or are nursing a hurt ego from rejection.
At first it’s all about healing the ego by trying to figure how how on earth they could have treated us that way. We decide they are an assclown, or emotionally unavailable, a narcissist etc. Over time you realize it’s not about them-it’s all about you, the choices you have made.
Natalie addresses this. You may have to heal childhood wounds. You’ll find someone had a mentally ill parent, was abused, parent was an alcoholic etc. Or others have made choices in ignorance and innocence,
and soon realize, “oops, I made a mistake, I’ll never do that again.”
Some people choose to meet total strangers via the internet rather than through social situations of mutual interests where they can see and talk to someone, get to know them a while before dating and having sex with them.
Some people make their choices based on loneliness, aging, social pressures to get married, have a child.
Others make the choices they do because they have no moral compass on which to make their decisions. They are selfish and don’t care how their behaviour impacts others.
When you figure out why you behave the way you do, have made the choices you made you start to live honestly, authentically, with purpose and goodwill to all. You understand yourself and accept yourself which is the key to being content.
I know from experience, I made a bad choice, now understand why I behaved as I did, have learned from that and am healing. Natalie’s insight has been invaluable.
Where’s the like button!?!!!!
Well said.
Well hot damn, Simple Pleasures. You just came out of the rafters with that one. Done and DONE. Nothing more to say.
Good on you.
simple pleasures, I’m so grateful to read your comment. As your your namesake suggests, there’s so much clarity and then hope and contentment to be gained from keeping things simple.
Hi S.P.
That was spot on. So full of insight, depth of understanding where our behaviors come from and just beautifully expressed. Not long ago I had little perception of how my childhood has influenced my thoughts and actions as an adult. With BR, counseling and a strong desire, I’m learning and attempting to work on improving. It is a long, slow zig zag, process but worth every bit of it. Thank you.
Simple,
Nail on head!
Mymble—Thank you for your post. I agree that he will gaslight her and we will not be friends in the future. I know that I definitely wont be going to their home and she even invited me for T’giving!! I told her “No, it’s too wierd, but your sentiment is very sweet.” When you are young you believe things, and yep–hindsight is always 20/20. It’s for sure a time this wise old owl did not see the real person and I feel like a dumb bunny. I love Natalie’s take on lying tho, and agree that by cutting him (and eventually even her) off, I am NOT overreacting. I just don’t want to associate with him and tbh, I have developed a sort of fear of him over this out & out lie. Thanks, tho..appreciate it.
first time posting here! I was in an emotionally abusive semi-relationship this year. There was one sexual incident that upset me. basically used as a stress relief blow up doll and then treated with disdain and animosity. I ruminated on it for a week before telling him, thinking I would get an apology, but instead I got told it was all in my head, I was making a big deal out of it, and maybe we should stop seeing each other. it was only because he ‘missed me’ blah blah blah. i allowed him to make me feel like i was stupid, over sensitive and just plain wrong. he always upsets me without meaning to, so it must be ME, right? i had six months of this crazy making. i have come to realise everything he ever said was a lie or for personal gain. i wish i hadn’t invalidated my feelings on his behalf, as Natalie said.
missyjam- Yes, I know that, “What am I, a blowup doll?” feeling. Even though it’s painful, it’s good that you’re out of that mess! After I had sex with the guy who brought me here, I talked to my pastor at my church about what I did. He told me, “We declare ourselves sinners so why are you surprised that you sinned?” When he said that, I was able to forgive myself, which gave me strength to say no when the guy came around again a couple nights later.
What I’m trying to say in my long-winded way is that, by acknowledging your weakness and forgiving yourself for it, you will become stronger and more resistant to future nonsense. It’s ok to acknowledge we’re weak sometimes. Now that you know what your problem is–self-doubt–you can work on improving that.
I’m back. Hope you realize strong conversation is OK with me. Been thinking about the things you say. I agree with some of it, not all of it.
Tink, I thought about what you said, and it is true…..I am receptive to dealing with married men. However, I had very low interest in having the good MM get a divorce……like…. zero interest. I really was happy the way it was…don’t understand why all roads must lead to marriage. Particularly if there are no children involved. I do.not.want. to live in a loveless marriage. I want to be able to easily leave when it starts feeling bad.
There are crap marriages, you know. The marriages I’ve seen don’t work. They are either noisily unhappy or quietly unhappy.
By the time a spouse is out trolling for non-spousal companionship, that marriage is already broken. Blaming the OW/OM is scapegoating. Allison, I appreciate your loyalty to your friends who suffered this type of betrayal, but hating on the OW is scapegoating.
I do agree that the MM who withheld his status til later was self-serving. But I agree with that way of handling life so I take no offense. Imagine having rings around your body, like Saturn, except I see it as 3 rings. That inner ring closest to planet YOU is ring 1, the most special place anyone can be. It takes a lot to get there.
When I first meet a man, he is at my outer ring. I AM NOT SHOPPING for “the one” at that point. So yes, Rosie, at that point a person is a diversion/social fun – just as I should be in that person’s life. No telling him I’m single or do I care if he’s married. You know, I never asked GoodMM what his status was…I never do. There are many things to discover before it moves to him being a potential “the one”. Most men I meet never get past the outer ring…whether they are single and “marriageable” (since that is the goal..?) or looking for a fix to a broken marriage. I have dated men for months who’ve stayed at ring 3….it’s not time, but intangibles that gets you moved up.
ACMM is basically a good guy. You would like him. That is to say he made it to ring 2. GoodMM was ring 1.
My point here Rosie, is when I said I’m not sure I can do better, I know how many positive things I saw in ACMM, not easy to find. I’ve had my fill of suffocating/indifferent single men and I ain’t eager to date. But no worries, I’m done with AC MM drama. I think GoodMM made me think lightening could strike twice.
GoodMM said on his wedding day he told his brother he did not want not get married -“I did not PICK her!” – he said, but his upbringing was of the era where you did right by the girl – she was pregnant. ACMM said I improved his marriage. I felt neither here nor there about that..it was just reality. Things are broken in their marriages, and Allison, everyone doesn’t fix a broken marriage with Divorce. But, I do understand, the fix does not have to be adultery.
However, If they cheat with ya, they’ll cheat on ya. No news there, Allison.
I NEVER want to suffer along in a sad marriage. I don’t think I am EU. I am emotionally cautious. I think many people are too Emotionally Available! I am amazed at how fast people move from first meeting to we are an “us” now.
I bookmark many discussions on this board and I store them in my ILM folder, which stands for I Love Me. So, for now, I’m just gonna be with me.
Elgie
The choices aren’t affair or bad marriage. You could have a long and happy marriage, why not?
“GoodMM said on his wedding day he told his brother he did not want not get married -“I did not PICK her!” – he said, but his upbringing was of the era where you did right by the girl – she was pregnant. ACMM said I improved his marriage. I felt neither here nor there about that..it was just reality. Things are broken in their marriages, and Allison, everyone doesn’t fix a broken marriage with Divorce. But, I do understand, the fix does not have to be adultery.”
I tried to understand your earnestness (?)in the above paragraph Elgie as the tone doesn’t convey obtuseness. Finally I reversed yours and the married men’s positions:
“Elgie said that on her Decision To Knowingly Continue Adultery with the Good Married Man Day, she told herself she did not want a married man in particular -“I did not PICK him!” – she said, but her upbringing was of the sort where you did right by your own desires at all costs – and she felt impregnated/inflated via this good, though self serving, married man’s attentions. Elgie said that at the time the Ass Clown married man improved her image and ideas about herself – her relationship/marriage- with herself. He felt neither here nor there about that..it was just reality. Things are broken in her relationship with herself and… everyone doesn’t fix a broken relationship with themselves through a difficult process of divorce from the unhealthy self and dissociated feelings. But, the Married Men do understand, the fix does not have to be adultery.”
So what if there appears to be no discernable reaction at all, never mind an over reaction, to either lying to ourselves (self deception) or being lied to (deceived) by other people?
Elgie,
I think you may protest too much. We’ve all forgotten about your post and you are back again trying to convince us that your penchant for MM’s is a good healthy lifestyle and you are not EU. Elgie, I’m just concerned about your thought processes so do not take what I’m saying as sarcasm. On the contrary, I believe you are QUITE STRONGLY EU. Not dealing with whys and wherefores, I think if it makes you happy, rock on. But, I can’t encourage and support what you’re doing because it’s not just you and the MM on Mars, or a deserted island. There are the wife, kids, etc. that are involuntarily affected negatively. You’re conspiring to destroy families. These people get hurt. Now, you may say ” Well, the marriage was already broken before he came after me”. That’s not the direction that your mind should be taking you to. The point is that you’re helping a deflated marriage along to destruction for selfish reasons. Because of your EUness you see nothing wrong with this behavior because you’re focused on your own convenience of being able to walk away unscathed when it all goes south. Elgie, you fail to realize that you DON’T get to walk away unscathed. Intimate relationships with MM’s is self-demeaning whether you feel that way or not. It. Just. Is. You ARE hurting YOU.
Furthermore, the more you engage in this type of relationshit, the further it takes you from ever being available for a healthy one, not just physically but psychologically. But even more importantly, you’re moving away completely from the fact that some relationships work. The choice does not have to be choosing an affair over a stifling, unfulfilling marriage. Please go back to the drawing board.
Keeping this brief. Apologies brain not functioning sufficiently to read all the news in everyone’s posts (those I know even)
In short thankyou rev, rosie & lilly. Rev yes. Snail pace progress but progress none the less. If that is all we can manage it’s ok. I’m very ill (nothing terminal but now diagnosed w a life long incurable condition.) I will get round to curing it nonetheless in the fullness of time. Meanwhile, physically, very weak, but my mind is growing stronger day by day as I slowly manage to meet at least my basic needs. I hope yr well Rev & still dancing yr (brain blank) dance classes you love so much. x
Lilly, I get a clear picture of yr exp & personality too by yr posts. Forgive yrself for having been passive in the past. This is a new you, a new job yr applying for & even out n abt! Changing jobs is HUGE. You go girl. You’ve come so far.
Rosie the posts I’ve read of yrs in recent mths (even if I haven’t.comment show great insight. Good for you. Yr on the path, as indeed we all are.
A final word to Elgie. Remember, what goes around comes around in life. You may not be interested in marriage now but one day this may change. It does happen. I don’t say this in a judgemental way but having affairs with married men (once you know their.married & it continues & this happens more than once, so not just a mistake u learned frm but a pattern of.behaviour) shows a lack of moral fibre & dishonesty. This behaviour is likely to backfire spectacularly. First, if u decide u do want to marry honest men may not consider you marriage material. They may fear you will not stay faithful as.suggested by past dishonesty. Secondly, if u omit to reveal these r.ships to avoid this, that leaves a ‘crack’ of a back door where you may b vulnerable to these affairs reigniting, yrs down the track.
Finally, do unto to others as you would have them do to you. If you were married to yr one & only, how would u feel abt another woman, single no less, having an affair with yr hubby? What if there were kids in yr marriage? How might such an affair impact them?
You need to realign yr moral compass. It is totally unacceptable to have affairs with married men (ie use these.men) so that you can have all the trappings of a r.ship & ‘enjoy yr space’ at the same time. This is a very selfish mindset with the capacity to cause terrible harm to the lives of innocent people ie the men’s wives for starters. You may want to consider this. You seem like an intelligent, witty woman. Why sell yrself so short?
Oh lilly LOVE that anger. You are so finally starting to heal! xxx
Thanku selkie. hope u r well too.
Love to all. Back to sick bay in the genie bottle now. xx
Elgie. Tink’s last post is on the money. You may not see it, but it stands out like dogs gonads from the outside looking in, you most definately are EU or have EU issues (however u want to phrase this).
Past affairs w MM tht u don’t disclose before getting married yrself (in the event this happens) have the capacity to destroy YOUR marriage. U may love yr hubby deeply but hit a ‘rough patch’. A past MM affair partner may suddenly be bk in town. The internet & facebook now means easy ability to re-est contact, forever, ie the rest of yr life. Under these conditions u may stray in yr own marriage. Yr hubby if he discovers this may leave u. Yr current mindset is sowing the seeds for a future w the capacity for destroying yr own happiness, by yr own actions. This would be so sad. U seem like a likable intelligent woman. Why are u setting yrself up like this? Yr setting yrself up to fail.
My suggestion is tht u research emotional unavailability. Learn all u can abt it. You will meet yrself & this holds the key for a healthy way forward w healthy r.ships.
Then, once this is addressed, u can TELL yr potential hubby to be, look, I used to be EU. I made poor decisions. I did these things w these exact ppl. Absolute honesty will help to create a safetynet helping to protect u frm backsliding in future. This.convo might best be saved until marriage is on the table. Let him know, b4 u marry me, I must tell u this. It’s very important. But let him know the new non EU first. If he recinds his proposal u will know he wasn’t the one for you.
Tink,
Spot on!!!!
Tine to think about others, Elgie!
My friends tell me he lied to me from the start about wanting a relationship. His marriage was over for more than a year and had moved out and had been on his own for about 6 months before we got together. I thought he was ready, he said he was, I was the one holding back. Now after 9 months of dating we are no longer together. There were some red flags as we progressed in the relationship, putting in minimal effort with maximum output which I should have paid more attention too but I just put it down to him being cautious and I never pushed him for anything he was not ready for. I saw him change from happy to withdrawn, as papers were being drawn up, he lost his humour and desire to do anything really even sleep together. I knew something was up but not sure, he said he realized he had depression and started to seek help but now I also wonder if that was a lie to spare my feelings, that I was nothing more than a transition girl for him whilst he licked his wounds from breakdown of marriage. I was such a good friend to him, as well as, support, cared for him when he bared his soul and cried in my arms and said I deserve better than him and why am I wasting my time, I put it down to his depression and now I am not sure about how felt for me at all, was it the truth or just a lie, I said I will step back so he can work on himself. I would text him only when he would text me first, I wanted to respect this time thinking he was going through hell. He was instead seeing another girl within days. When he needed space I gave it to him, I feel used, he has hid his new relationship from me on FB.I had to go and collect my things from his old place, he couldn’t have the decency to help return them. I have questioned my self respect and perhaps I should not even have bothered replying to any texts but we were friends beforehand and thought we could work this through. He has just totally thrown me out with trash! The relationship meant more to me than him, as I fell in love with him. I like to think I have handled this well, when I could have sent abusive text messages, to the point of begging to make us work, and saying how much he has hurt and disrespected me, but I didn’t. I know if even cared a bit about me he wouldn’t have done what he has done. I am still in 2 minds if to send a letter to him it has now been about 2.5 months. In some ways by not sending a message I am condoning his behavior. I have blocked him on FB.
I have been reading articles on this website since August and there is one to respond to every question or thought I have ever had in regards to the situation I was in. I can’t even get over how much relief it brings me and how much better it makes me feel to read them. Thank you so much!
Basically what happened is I was seeing this guy, who I knew was a player just because I had known him for a couple years from working with him. I tried to keep my distance from him by just keeping things casual, but he always made it seem like it was more. I went away on a trip and he really wanted to stay in contact, and talked about still hanging out when I got back after 4 months.
I got back in March of last year and everything seemed to go right back to how it was for about 2 weeks until I saw him out with some other girl. I confronted him about it just wondering what he wanted from us, he freaked out at me and told me he never ever wanted a girlfriend and that I knew this, and there would always be other girls. He was really harsh about it so I was upset. But I was so confused by everything that had happened, I didn’t know how he could deny anything we ever had and refuse to admit his feelings for me.
I tried to keep things how they were, and he would get mad at me if I didn’t want to come over late at night to be with him. So I took a break for about a month. Then heard that he decided to only see this girl, which seemed like a huge contradiction to what he had just told me, so I tried getting together with him again. We got a bit closer for about a month and then in May he decided to break it off with me, because things were fresh with this new girl and he wanted to see where it could go with her, even though he knew it would probably go nowhere since he never wanted a girlfriend.
He said he didn’t want to string me along anymore because he really cared about me and we should stop hooking up because it would prevent us from being best friends, and he didn’t want me to hate him.
This worked for about another month, then in June we went away with our friends and he was all over me, we hooked up twice within a week. Then in July I saw him at the bar with this girl for the first time and just had a break down. I cried and left and started blasting him through text messages about how I hated him and how he was afraid of feelings and he had no respect for me for bringing her out when he knew I would be there with our friends. I just lost it.
I was so worried the next morning that I blew it for good, that he would never want anything to do with me that I fully apologized to him and this new girl, he said it was ok and that he didn’t want to let it come between us. But then he stopped talking to me. We went to a concert together in August that I had bought him for his birthday, and then the same weekend I found out he went to this girl’s cottage with all of her family. I was fuming. So much for not wanting a girlfriend.. that seems a bit much for wanting no attachment to anyone. He hadn’t had a girlfriend in over 6 years, so why her and why not me when it had seemed like he really really cared about me, we got along really well, shared all the same friends and I could tell he really liked me. What was so special about her?
She went back to school in September so she wasn’t around as much, he continued to ignore me whenever we were out with our friends so it was really hard for me to understand why he was treating me so coldly when we were supposed to be good friends. Anything I said to him, any way I acted he just rejected it. Then after we left the bar one night he starts texting me, going on about how its sucks going home alone and making me feel bad for him, and comfort him since he was reaching out to me. The conversation somehow turned and then he wanted me to send him photos and hook up with him. Yaaa right…
The next time we went out I figured his attention would be on me, but instead he had invited this other girl that he wanted to hook up with. I was obviously upset and left. Then the next two times we ended up going home together. He was all over me at the bar both nights, and for some reason being really nice to me, which was a change.
Any time I had seen him though, it would be up and down. Sometimes he would be very receptive of my friendliness and we could hold a nice conversation, other times he completely rejected it and made me feel stupid for even trying to interact with him… and then the other times he would want to hook up with me. Of course I was so confused by his up and down behaviour. It was hard for me to go out with our friends and have him treat me that way, while being so close with everyone else.
The last time we hooked up was right before Christmas, then I found out he was still seeing the same girl and bought her some fancy gift. I called him out on that. Then just this weekend it was my birthday, so of course being in my drunken state I thought it would be a good idea to put myself out there and see if he would take me home.
Bad idea. He flat out rejected me. Then when I tried asking him why not, he said he wanted to blow his brains out. That was obviously harsh, and so I cried, got kicked out and then I just lost it on him again. He obviously wouldn’t respond to me so I just sent text after text telling him off and how his treatment of me wasn’t fair and to never speak to me again.
At first I was proud of myself for finally cutting him out of my life, everyone was glad I did. Then I started thinking about it and I felt embarrassed. Why did I have to react, why couldn’t I have just walked away and kept my cool and left it at “never speak to me again”. Why was it so hard for me to control my emotions? I have been overdramatic about this situation for months and my friends constantly tell me to get over it. But I just couldn’t and I let the drama continue.
But now, after reading this article I don’t feel guilty. I don’t need his validation or approval. If he wants to think I am crazy then he can go right ahead. But when you have put up with someone’s crap for so long, you hit a breaking point and you just can’t take it any more. Sure I wish it didn’t happen when I was drunk, but at least I finally cut myself out of his game. I hold the power now, and he is the one who can feel awkward and uncomfortable around me instead of the other way around, me never knowing how he is going to react to me or what he wants that night. It is going to be hard because I work with him, and he is part of my group of friends. But this was really the only way I think I could have finally cut him out and moved on. Because after that, I woke up thinking screw him I am sick of him being nice to me only when it is convenient for him and at this point I don’t care what he thinks of me. He was the one who treated me poorly, and I was always myself. I just let him get away with it for too long. I don’t need him in my life unless he comes around and decides to apologize. And he most likely never will, so I can’t wait for that. I can’t look for his validation so I don’t feel like the bad guy for acting crazy and pushing him away, he was the bad guy and always will be.
I have also realized that he is not with this girl because he cares about her or she is so much better than me, it is because I actually stick up for myself and don’t put up with his crap, whereas she just has no clue what is going on behind her back and so he can get away being himself around her and she still deals with it. And I wouldn’t want to be her, even though I really like him and care about him a lot. It really isn’t worth it to be stuck in a crappy pretend relationship, with someone who is ridiculously emotionally unavailable.
so there you have it, one more episode of Mr. Unvailable and the Fallback Girl… hopefully we can all learn from our stories and this website ladies (and gents). Don’t let yourself feel bad for reacting to poor treatment or lies from a douchebag.
xo.