In my last post I wrote about deal breakers, you know those things that you cannot overlook or accept in a relationship that will have you declaring that you’re out. The comments as always were interesting with some expressing their concerns about what would in essence amount to forcing themselves to be attracted to someone, which is to somewhat miss the point.
Deal breakers are not about forcing yourself to be in a relationship that you don’t want to be in or holding back your gag reflex…
Not only would these be pretty unpleasant situations for you but they’d be incredibly disrespectful to the other party. None of us, and I do literally mean none of us, are that special that someone should be treated that way as a result of our ambivalence.
What deal breakers are about is recognising that some ‘deals’ i.e. relationships, are not good to go.
Sometimes we make a ‘deal’ in good faith. And then sometimes we make a deal where the basis of the faith is a bit dodgy as we’ve gone in loving and trusting blindly. We basically initiate deal proceedings (dating) or get into a deal (relationship) that it turns out we need to get out of or that you both need to clarify what the deal is and seek to get the deal back on track.
A deal breaker isn’t casting your eye over a dating site or a nightclub and going ‘long hair, deal breaker’, ‘overweight, deal breaker’, ‘doesn’t earn enough, deal breaker’, ‘unattractive, deal breaker’ because you’re not in a deal with these people. If we look at deal breakers in this way, it’d be like me walking down the street tomorrow and not realising I’m being appraised and flushed out even though I’m not in the market for a deal.
Where a deal breaker presents itself is during dating or once you’re into a relationship.
Dating is a discovery phase where both parties while enjoying themselves should be discovering the facts about one another and ultimately working out whether there is the capacity for a mutually fulfilling co-piloted relationship.
That capacity shouldn’t be based on a wing and a prayer, assumptions, or denial – it should be based on the facts that you’ve discovered. By dating with your eyes and ears open and recognising what is and isn’t appropriate for moving forward into a relationship, ideally you can, for example, identify code amber and red behaviours during this phase.
Often the very things that we turn a blind eye to in the ‘honeymoon phase’ are what come to bite us in the bum further down the line. When we ‘wake up’ in a relationship and have to acknowledge that there’s a difference in values, they’re all talk no action, are non-commital etc, that’s because the due diligence on the deal wasn’t done – we were likely blinded by looks, sex, words, money, common interests etc.
You then find yourself in a deal that you’re trying to renegotiate the terms of or extricate yourself out of. If you’re the flogging that donkey till it collapses sort, you’ll keep renegotiating and renegotiating till what you had in mind for a relationship has been obliterated.
Failing that, you might do a Jennifer Hudson in Dreamgirls and sing ‘And I’m telling you, I’m not going. You’re the best man [or woman] I’ll ever know, There’s no way I can ever go………….You’re gonna love me’.
The truth is that you can get into whatever deal you want to get into but it’s better to make a quality deal and know that if you’re not in this deal with your self-esteem, it’s time to opt out and break the deal. If there are problems in this deal that can be addressed by both parties co-piloting the issue, then so be it, but if you’re going to try and do the loving and the work for the two of you, the deal is off.
So how do you construct your deal breaker?
Deal breakers should be constructed around the premise of: Even if I’m wildly attracted to someone and they look how I’d like them to, the sex is great, we share similar interests, and I feel that I love them etc, what type of behaviours would they have to engage in for me to break the deal?
There’s a simple reason for this: If you’re not that fussed about someone, no matter how lovely they are, you’ll break the deal easier because you’ll deem yourself not interested. It’s breaking a deal with someone who you are interested in…even if it’s for the wrong reasons.
Let’s take it as a given that you’ll get involved with people that you’re attracted to – you only have the attraction and a certain amount of information to go off. You then have the personal responsibility to assess the risk and see if the person behind the attraction stacks up values wise and ultimately wants the same mutually fulfilling relationship that you do.
Your responsibility is to ensure that what you love and are attracted to stacks up for a mutually fulfilling healthy relationship. If not, the deal is off.
What are your boundaries? If these are disrespected, these are deal breakers.
Do you recognise code amber and red behaviour? These are deal breakers.
Do you recognise what direct and indirect rejection looks like?
Do you know what your values are, the things that you believe are fundamentally important to your happiness and help shape your life direction?
What would have you working against your core beliefs? The amount of people I hear from who tell me they’re involved with someone from a different religion or race that’s sleeping with them but saying they don’t believe in dating outside their religion or race is ridiculous.
Is anything you’re saying that’s a deal breaker, something you actually are yourself?
Not feeling attracted to someone is a deal breaker but being attracted to someone that proves to be unavailable or an assclown is a deal breaker also.
Attraction doesn’t change the fact that the behaviours are deal breakers.
You can then say: Even if I did love someone, if they hit me, I’m out. Game over, no credits.
Even if I was deeply attracted to someone, if I was disrespecting myself as a result of my involvement, I’d have to step back.
No matter what the chemistry is, I don’t stay with people that cheat, lie, disappear, and flake out on their promises.
You also have to ask yourself: If I feel good in a relationship (including attraction, sex etc) and we share the same values but they don’t ‘look’ like my ‘type’, is that a deal breaker?
I know someone whose deal breaker was that she wouldn’t be with a white guy or someone who is ‘overweight’. This intelligent man who sat down beside her one day, chatted her up, took her on great dates, shared great times with her and had the same values was…white and overweight. I’m glad she stopped fighting it – they’re now married with kids.
I’m not telling you to run off and date what you don’t like but what I am saying is that we are often blinded by ‘type’, looks, and ‘chemistry’ with people that we’re actually vibing with for the wrong reasons. This is why I hear from so many readers in poor relationships trying to make a pigs ear into a silk purse.
Don’t limit your options. Knowing your deal breakers gives you self-esteem but reminds you of what’s important – feeling good in a mutually fulfilling healthy relationship instead of hanging on to a relationship that’s good on paper but not up to much in the flesh that leaves you feeling hungry and hurt. That is a deal breaker.
Your thoughts?
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This stuff is so damn confusing. Not because of you per se, but probably more because of me. Ignoring the physical, which I mentioned in the last post, my deal breakers are:
– lying
– infidelity
– passive-aggressiveness
– abuse of any kind
– disrespect
– invalidation
Gonna re-read this tomorrow, after all the royal wedding hoopla has died down. 😐
Well I’m going to take a stab at answering this even though I don’t know what your specific confusion is:
You want to be with a slim/not overweight man that you’re attracted to. That’s fine but even if you meet this man that doesn’t mean that you automatically share the same values and that he will treat you with love, care, trust, and respect.
If you are looking for, example, a slim man that’s at least 5ft 10, reasonable sized penis, good in bed, short hair, well groomed, earns over X amount, likes bungee jumping, going to church, eating Italian food, and reading 18th century poetry that pretty much think, feels, and acts as you do and will also give you the relationship you want, you have a smaller pool to fish from. Throw in race or religion and that pool shrinks further.
If you’re looking to meet a man that you’re attracted to, that you have healthy chemistry with, shared values and it yields into a mutually fulfilling relationship, your pool is much greater because you’re not filtering that pool by looks or anything superficial. It doesn’t mean that you won’t be attracted to them but you’ll prioritise qualities that make a difference to your relationship and immediately tell you about the quality of the relationship that you’re going to get.
Exactly. The looks are SO overrated. In the end when you spend a lot of time with him, you realize looks don’t matter, it’s the personality you concentrate on. At least it so with me.
Gala, the thing is that looks are subjective. It’s about what YOU consider attractive. The guys I’ve felt attracted to throughout the years all looked different amongst themselves. Or, by a similar note, I felt attracted to guys who were not necessarily handsome (by the “majority” vote), and, on the contrary, guys considered handsome by many of my friends didn’t awake any feelings of attraction in me. I wouldn’t state “looks” as a criterion, but “physical attraction”. That is not over-rated, because we’re not looking for a platonic relationship. BUT if the gorgeous guy, or the guy you feel soooooo attracted to is a complete asshole, attraction may fade as well. It has happened to me in the past! 🙂
@Sandra
“BUT if the gorgeous guy, or the guy you feel soooooo attracted to is a complete asshole, attraction may fade as well. It has happened to me in the past! ”
My sentiments and experience exactly. Last summer when I was at my ACs house the last few times – with the intent of breaking up….I was watching him and realizing that he just was not that handsome anymore……..as a matter of fact he’s kinda ugly, too short, and really stupid ears…..and an irritating laugh.
I think I had had enough! I’ve met beautiful people that started to look kinda ugly after you got to know them, and met people that were kinda homely and then became quite beautiful to me once I got to know them. There really is such a thing as inner beauty and I am sure glad I learned that in my 20’s.
NML, what I am about to ask is partly already answered by what you have commented on here… Your/ anybody else’s thoughts would be great. I am really quite confused. You may remember my story last year after years of being single I chase/ fell for a handsome EUM who I was into, hot-cold rubbish began and then it ended (painfully for me as he got under my skin), did on-off NC, then he got a gf recently. I recently started dating a guy, been on 5 dates now, on our last 2 dates has made a move at the end of the night. He says he likes spending time with me and can’t wait to see me again. I just don’t think I feel the chemistry or attraction. I feel like maybe I am so fussy/ or I am never going to have that healthy level of chemistry with anyone again. I mean this new guy is gentlemanly in every other way, treats me well, no ambiguous behaviour but i don’t feel that we could talk for hours or have clicked exactly. He doesn’t make me laugh/ no butterflies. Is that a dealbreaker? I just don’t know. I find it difficult to meet guys who I can potentially even date due to the pool needing to come from the same cultural background as me and being on similar professional level (that’s my own dealbreaker, that I am sure of)… I just don’t know what I am supposed to do, carry on seeing him and ask him to leave the physical stuff out as we are dating (I think i do agree this is the ‘discover phase’) or is that part of the ‘dating experience’ and no point without / be patient/ is that asking too much… Or just leave it?
Hi Maya. If you’re not interested, you’re not interested. You have to learn to trust your judgement. I personally don’t feel that you are over your ex and this is down to “I am never going to have that healthy level of chemistry with anyone again” which suggests that you think the chemistry that you had with your ex is your barometer. When you’re over him and focused on a healthy relationship, you throw out your old rule book and ideas and judge the new relationship on its merits not on comparing. While I have recommended to quite a few people post Mr Unavailable or AC to take their time in dating someone new and different because it will feel unfamiliar and not as ‘exciting’ initially, I think it would serve you better to leave this guy alone and sort out yourself, your values and what you really want here. I don’t think it’s that you’re fussy – it’s that you’re far choosier about who you don’t date than who you actually *do* date. I respect the whole cultural background requirement but it will always boggle me as to why women insist they need men on the same professional level as them – if men had always done this, most women would struggle, especially in a world where there are still some professional imbalances that shouldn’t exist but still do. You’re not looking for a work colleague – you’re looking for a relationship partner.
Maya expressed most of my sentiments exactly (except I’m not seeing anyone and haven’t in a while). And also what you said:
“I don’t think it’s that you’re fussy – it’s that you’re far choosier about who you don’t date than who you actually *do* date. ”
That may be my challenge. I read this site on a regular basis, along with a few others having to do with many different topics. I read so much about what to avoid, stories of shady men, claims of there being good men out there, etc. etc. etc. that my head often swims. It’s like, why am I even thinking about this stuff? Why even bother if it’s this difficult? Every once in a while I think it’d be nice to be with someone, but then it seems like there’s always something new to look out for, something that I hopefully won’t get sucked into, thus discarding all my deal breakers without even realizing it. I wonder if that mysterious “good man” actually exists; I question my own judgement; it’s easy to get sucked in by assclowns’ manipulative behaviors (yes, we have to take responsibility to NOT get sucked in, yet they’re pretty damn good at being subtle about it) to the point that you wonder what happened to your deal breakers, etc. Hell, my own mother had me sucked in for most of my life until about 5 years ago. That’s how slick these assclowns are.
I’m rambling because I’m barely awake, but hopefully you get what I’m saying. If not, let me know and I’ll TRY to explain better.
Look, for all intents and purposes, the odds are stacked against me. Totally emotionally unavailable upbringing, absent father, witnessed a lot of crazy stuff in my childhood with my mother and stepfathers volatile relationship, fraught and dysfunctional relationship with mother that could, as we’ve discussed before, be *your* mother, alcholism, problematic adult relationships and the list goes on. For all intents and purposes, I *shouldn’t* be happy, personally or in a relationship. I don’t highlight what to look out for to scare the shit out of people – it’s to empower. Knowledge goes a hell of a long way. Ultimately, any fear we have about what lies ahead is not about ‘them’; it’s about *us*.
Self-esteem is about having confidence in yourself. It’s knowing that you are a person of value, being confident in that value, and considering yourself worthwhile *enough* to not only be treated decently but to also trust in. If you can learn to like and love yourself, no matter who you meet, you can trust yourself to act in your best interests. It’s having faith in you. The world is not full of assclowns. I’m sorry, but it isn’t. I know and see people forging love and relationships all the time.
There are no guarantees. We’ve got to go out there, meet people, fuck up, learn from our mistakes, apply, try again. If we can’t even be willing to vulnerable enough to not only trust ourselves but to admit when we’ve made an error in judgement, we either won’t do a damn thing or we’ll stay in relationships long past our sell by date. When you know what you want as opposed to what you don’t want, you can go out there and look for it. When you come across what you don’t want, you just say NEXT.
“When you come across what you don’t want, you just say NEXT.”
^This is so key! Unfortunately it takes tons of trial and error for most of us to figure out exactly what we’re looking for. I spent some time reading up your posts and trying to figure out my own “deal breakers” and I’m running into lots of gray areas…and I thought knew myself pretty well…hahaha
I know you don’t do it to scare people, and I hope I’m not coming across as invalidating anything because your site is a godsend for me and so many others. Been reading this site for a long time now. All of this is just hard. While it’d be nice to meet someone decent, it’s probably best that I keep to myself for longer for that reason. 1 step forward, 5 steps back. I’m sorry, don’t know what else to say.
Not at all invalidating. It is bloody hard, especially when you’re an introvert and sometimes for now it’s just getting on with your life. Specifically going out looking for a man and love is kinda exhausting. I was actually thinking about how we used to go out to clubs hungry and on the lookout for guys. Every. Weekend.
Building a full life that pleases you man or no man will involve getting uncomfortable. That’s a given. Some of my closest friends are what would be considered to be introverts but they have worked on their confidence. You can too and maybe that is more your focus than ‘meeting’ someone.
Never thought of it that way, but it makes perfect sense. Been thinking about this all weekend. 😐
I’m an introvert, and I have this dilemma too. I know that I need to go out, meet people, make friends. Yet I also have to have a certain amount of solitude to recharge my batteries. I feel so crowded, drained and irritable if I don’t have some time alone sometimes. The problem is that I can end up spending too much time alone because it is comfortable and easy for me. Too much of that, and I end up feeling depressed and isolated. Also, to be a good friend, you need to make time for your friends, and be there when they need you.
I’m trying to find the balance between socializing and solitude, between respecting others’ needs and meeting my own. For now, this means that I do make sure that I have some quiet, alone time, and also pushing myself to try new activities, and go up and talk to new people, even if that behavior doesn’t feel quite natural to me yet. I think that balance is the key….figuring out what is the right balance is the challenge.
Balance is important and acknowledging we need time to repair and refind our core interests. So much of our soul self gets damaged in the fall out of these AC relationships. I found the meetup.com groups a life saver when I was needing to fulfill a social interactive side without any big commitment and while you get your inner self together. Of course if you live near a big city it helps. There are all sorts of interests, film groups, theatre or museum visits, (followed by pub/coffee drinks after) music all genres, ramblers and even weekend camping events. All helps you get back in the new saddle. I think that while it initially feels scary, you quickly meet so many others in similar situations all looking for new friends to fit their new self also that are having time out from the focus being on finding a partner.
That could even be one of my new deal breakers in a new relationship, having to give up my new re-found interests in lieu of the couch veg out scenario.
Spinster, Magnolia, and NML, I’ve been thinking of your posts all weekend too. I’m so stuck and afraid of things that I just work on my classes and keep my head down. This evening, I decided that rather than wash my car or email the ex MM, I would go to the little cafe on the corner. It was so scary. I had to drive 1 mile and the only way I made it was because I could go to the grocery store instead if I chickened out. I made it to the little cafe instead of the grocery store and it was wonderful. I met a wonderful 30 something computer geek and normally I would have blown him off as being 30 something. We talked the entire afternoon. He is only 30 something, not at all an alpha male, but it was just fun and relaxing. He actually knew my field and was amazingly conversant. Without this site and you all, I would not have given this guy the time of day. A month ago he would have been a deal breaker. Today, he was a breath of fresh air. It was so scary getting out of my comfort zone. Natalie, can you help with this comfort zone thing? It took all my brillance and all my alpha female strength just to get 1 mile up the street to the little cafe. Sheesh! Ladies who are struggling, it was worth it. It was a very long mile however.
runnergirl, congrats on making it to the cafe!! What an adventure it is getting to know ourselves, hmm?
No longer at the dysfunctional-attracting-hurtful-people-to-fix-and-validate-me level, I might just have graduated to the if-we’re-not-both-really-into-it-then-lets-move-on level. I just had an interview for a research job I was feeling ambivalent about, but, like this guy I just wrote about, thought the decision was whether or not to take something ‘beneath’ my preferences. And, like said guy, who hasn’t called, in fact, the job interviewers don’t want me either!
I love that the universe gives back what we put out.
I take this to mean I have graduated from I-secretly-think-I-suck-and-need-validation to I-don’t-know-what-my-value-is-so-it-makes-sense-if-you-don’t-either. I honestly don’t know why anyone else would join Club Magnolia if all I have of value is my honesty and kindness. It is super uncomfortable not knowing my own value, but perhaps this is the discomfort that pushes toward learning what I love and what lovable is.
So glad runner to have you on this journey. And so glad for the real sense of community here at BR where one can say stupid stuff and be responded to with respect and yet, frankness.
Magnolia, If all of my relationships had nothing but honesty and kindness then love couldn’t help but be a part of them if we truly liked one another. You, I think, are on the right track. More digging will bring you your answers. I’m still in your club.
On the other hand, if all encounters between humans entailed honesty and kindness then even if we were not friends there would still be respect because both honesty and kindness require us to consider the needs of ourselves and others. Perhaps I’m a dreamer but that’s how I see it. I sure hope you’re feeling better.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Honesty and kindness are absolute prerequisites to any interaction I have with anyone outside of forced-interaction situations (e.g., people I come into contact with through work). PERIOD.
And if someone I consider to be honest, kind, empathetic, and sympathetic starts to pull b.s. on me, then that’s it, game over. They may continue to know me and be around me (if I can’t avoid this, that is), but they will reap no benefits (e.g., advice) from being “friends” with me anymore. I’ll be all smiley, friendly, and good spirits (while thinking of other things than them), but devoid of the essentials of being a good friend.
Magnolia, I hope that what I said about emotional unavailable academics didn’t cause you to curl up in the fetal position. I was shocked to find so many folks with such similar experiences…don’t know why though after 5 months on this site! Everyday I’m amazed at how similar we all are.
I think Natalie’s response to you sums up what I realized “Anything is superficial if you take that one thing and make assumptions about it and correlate it to the rest of the person and assume that because they possess one thing, they possess other qualities, characteristics and values that you believe someone you are attracted to would have.” I think that was what I have been doing, seizing on their intellect and figuring the happy, healthy, committed relationship would naturally follow. It’s a blow me too.
My values and deal breakers are changing as I write. That’s the journey. I don’t quite know if I’ve graduated from the suck it and see validation stage to the I don’t know what my value is or my values are. Like you and the others, I am certainly trying to focus.
I went to a cafe 1 mile away. You moved on from a guy you weren’t interested in and a job you weren’t interested in. Congratulations. That’s progress.
It really is a wonderful sense of a community. Thank you Natalie and everyone who posts.
No, no, not at all – thank you for taking the time. The reactions of many women here first took me aback, and I processed openly here, but I think I understand where people are coming from. I’m also in a 12-step program since January and right now we’re in the middle of working the steps; I’m at this discomfiting inventory stage where I’m seeing how validated I feel by ‘intellectual conversation,’ how that might be the context in which I feel most worthy, how feeling superior may have been my substitute for feeling loved, and that it can be different. Feels like the message is coming at me from all directions. It’s heavy!! But exhilarating in getting a glimpse of the total change of outlook that might be possible.
I agree. If there are no confidence issues, you aren’t attracted to certain types of guys.
After some time and some clarity on my situation I can say you were right. I was in a major denial and nurtured huge illusions. But at the same time, when I was so hurt it was almost impossible for me to see past the mirage. It was like I had a veil over my eyes. I was totally concentrated on him, not on myself. I suppose it takes time to come to senses and be able to change yourself.
Thanks for your advice NML (sorry meant to comment last week). I think a lot of what you said is right, especially about being fussier about who I don’t date as opposed to who I do! It is fair to say I am not 100% over my ex, but I do feel like I am pretty much there as I don’t want ‘to be with him anymore’ like I used to. Also feel that I have processed that experience for what it was; I actually think that level of chemistry/ physical attraction/ basing your ideas for wanting a relationship on it is actually not the way to go and frankly quite dangerous for me. Yet I do grapple with ‘going for love from an available source’. It’s almost like I don’t know how to handle somebody being nice/ consistent/ showing me how they feel afters years of going for men who did the opposite. On some level perhaps I subconsciously feel it takes away from the chemistry… I don’t think it is a simple case of ‘i’m not interested’ because this way of dating is unfamiliar to me. For the first time I am having boundaries/ waiting for the guy to make the effort/ observing if words and actions match to show me he is interested. Yet, I also don’t know if I will fall for the guy I’m dating, and if I’m not ‘feeling it for him the way he does for me’ already, if that makes it a dealbreaker. I don’t know if lack of butterflies at the first 6 weeks of meeting someone is a dealbreaker or if I am too guarded/ just not attracted enough. I am trying to be sensible and follow my head which I didn’t do with assclowns who were wrong for me; I am appreciative of all the other hallmarks being shown by this guy (respect, care, consistency) and wonder if/ hope that things will develop. I don’t want to be unfair to the guy I am dating though so I have said I want to take it slowly, but I don’t know how this will work out/ if I will match up to his feelings/how long it should take.
As for the same professional level thing; from what I have experienced with guys so far from my (cultural background especially), I have yet to meet one who is comfortable with dating me unless they are at similar level careerwise. I am not putting myself on a pedestal, I guess I am equally attracted to intelligent and ambitious men (that are not…
I had a surprising deal-breaker recently. I went on a first date with a nice guy, and in a two hour date, over coffee and cake, he took 2 work and one personal phone call, totalling 25 minutes, and looked at and answered 7 texts whilst talking to me.
That dating behaviour was a deal breaker for me. I was so annoyed, that I left the cafe while he was on his 3rd long phone call and sent him a text on the way home saying, ‘I’m matching your really rude phoning and texting dating behaviour by ditching you by text, thanks for the coffee and cake it was more communicative than you were’ ………..
My standards are rising and I feel good about it.
Kim X
Kudos Kim because that is outrageous carry on!
Kim you were kinder than I would have been. All I can say is its his loss.
Way to go Kim! That is awesome of you to have enough respect for yourself to get up and walk out! If a guy can’t even manage to give you his full attention on dates, than that is definitely a deal breaker. The behavior usually only gets worse from there.
Kim,
I have to know – did he respond? What a total moron.
Good for you Kim, I hate it when people text or answer phone calls during dates as well and it is definately one of my dealbreakers. What’s the bet he was texting another woman while out with you – assclown!
Haha! That relates to why ‘things ended’ (I use the passive voice because it was as close to mutual as these things can be) with my last mini-relationship: The very lovely-but-workaholic guy would call me, ask how I was, and then, as I proceeded to answer, tell me that, btw, he only had five minutes because of work – a level of commitment, he claimed, I could not understand (which was super funny given some of the recent professional mountains I have climbed myself!). He would then spend a good deal of our small time together checking his phone and computer. I noticed – bad me – that I started being a less kind to him because of it, once I felt that I’d asked him many times nicely to no avail.
In any case, thanks to the AC experience, this site and, it should be said, my personal circs being a little more comfortable than they were with the AC, it was nipped in the bud, and did not have to be a drama. I just said that I am looking for a guy who wants to share things, including time and chat, and that work would always be there for him and need to be managed.
He’s not a bad guy – he wasn’t being duplicitous or cruel, he’s just way too interested in work to build something that I would consider a worthy relationship. (I know of other women who would take the cash prize in exchange for these Sunday morning-only relationships – not me, unfortunately! ; )).
” because of work – a level of commitment, he claimed, I could not understand”
This sort of thing is so rude, isn’t it and yet I had similar experiences with some high achiever. I was instructed on my own field by a guy I was seeing and who was just starting out in one segment of my field (and I worked on it, was very good at it and knew it in detail). I could see clearly his lack of knowledge and it seemed so funny to me, but he just couldn’t see himself as an egocentric silly little boy he was (at 35+ 😉 ). He was very patronizing, treating me as a little silly girl who doesn’t know anything about her work. It was a dealbreaker for me and no amount of shared values ect could undue this crap.
It’s such a put-off to be treated so isn’t it? I felt it was disrespectful. But on the other hand it’s really hard to find a guy successful in for eg. academia who would actually believe in your talent and support you (or I’m just not lucky with finding any).
Way to go Kim! What’s that crap all about anyway? I am not texting mindlessly and phoning when I’m with people. How rude and ridiculous is that? It’s weird…or sad..or something that SOO many people do that even on dates. Why? But I know there are good guys out there that don’t. That DO pay attention to you and the conversation. One that is not addicted to his smart phone 🙂
Good job Kim. It’s unbelievable what is apparently considered acceptable dating behavior lately with this text messaging!
A while back I had a guy sneakily texting a few times back and forth with a girl while he was sitting next to me at a show while we were on a date together. I caught onto what he was doing when I happened to see a response from her to him that said “huh-huh that’s funny :-)”
That was enough for me. We’d been seeing each other a little while by then and I had already told him I didn’t like him texting with other girls (because of stuff he’d told me and stuff I’d seen). Depending on the circumstances, it can be just ONE text that is too much.
“him a text on the way home” HaHa! I love it. He got what he deserved. Good job.
It is good to have deal breakers and to KIM good for you! I think it is completely rude to take phone calls during a date, especially the first one. That gives you the insight as to how important the date is to him if he can’t even take a break for a couple hours. My guaranteed deal breaker is excessive drinking. I will not tolerate it at all. Otherwise I’m pretty open to someone with a decent job and good sense of humor. I’ve learned to place appearance on the bottom of my list.
“I’m not telling you to run off and date what you don’t like but what I am saying is that we are often blinded by ‘type’, looks, and ‘chemistry’ with people that we’re actually vibing with for the wrong reasons. ” This is so, so true. I can’t tell you how many online dating profiles are littered with this kind of stuff. People want all the fireworks, but forget that after the “oooh, oooh, ahhhh ahh” you actually have to get along, work through challenges, and deal with mundane crap together – like bill paying and house cleaning.
I think one of the confusing places is riding the line between paying attention to details, and being perfectionistic or paranoid. Because sometimes in the early stages, behaviors you see aren’t really representative of who someone is. This can go both ways. Some are hiding all their flaws, and putting on a show. Others are making mistakes that end up not being patterns. One trick seems to be learning how to suss out patterns, and not just assume something you see once – positive or negative- is actually representative of the person.
As I heal from my long term relationship with my ex AC ( NC for 10 months!) , I periodically rethink my boundaries and write them down and date it. I have noticed my boundaries have changed and come more into focus as my anger and hurt go away. Figuring out what boundaries are important to me, and which ones are deal breakers becomes easier as I become more and more emotionally healthy. I still need work enforcing them and have a long way to go in being confident in asserting them instead of the awkward and self doubting way I tend to go about it now. The difference is that now I have them and speak up when I feel uncomfortable. I don’t worry so much about offending them like I used to. Where I do get hung up is when I try to assert that something isn’t okay and am met with resistance or an argument. Then it seems like it turns into “explaining” yourself or convincing them when they don’t agree or think you’re overreacting ( I probably am some of the time, being gun shy ). I know that they are MY boundaries and the people in question don’t have to agree with them, but learning how to enforce them without questioning myself or seeming unsure is a whole new learning process. For the big dealbreakers, like lying, verbal abuse, being violent, and cheating I don’t think I will pussy foot around, it’s the ones that can be flip flopped on you if you’re not careful, like not being consistent or being ambiguous. These can be manipulated as your being too sensitive or having unreasonable expectations, or even denied. This is where I need to grow a pair.
Such a great post Nat,
Im finding the more i read stuff like this the better im feeling about perhaps venturing out on a few dates and actually feeling confident about it and my ability to not get in another bad situation.
Its been around 1.5 years since my last relationship and im still not in any hurry but i also know the potential to meet somone or be open to it is drawing closer. I keep all your posts but im going to also make a little folder with all the posts about dating and so forth. Ive paid most attention to keeping away from the x, NC and the tools to getting over it all and moving on but i know i simply must start look at the tools needed to make sure when im dating or even making new friends that im using my head for a change 🙂
No matter what the chemistry is, I don’t stay with people that cheat, lie, disappear, and flake out on their promises.
I think the above is the best dealbreaker i can ever have, it takes into account all of the things i will never put up with. A cheat to me will always be a cheat no matter what. I have heard people say they can forgive a cheat, but to me its a no no because cheating is saying there is something wrong with the relationship and if they are not man enough to discuss what is wrong, and try to rectify it, the relationship will come crashing down eventually. We are presumably adult enough to have the chat about what is happening, what we like and dislike and see if we can heal the problem and go forward in the relationship.
That is now the deal breaker par excellence for me: Can the guy tell me what works or doesn’t work for him in a constructive way, and can he respond with equanimity if I tell him – reasonably and calmly – what I would like to work on?
Even making room for the fact that we all behave less than ideally under stress, if I detect for a minute that a guy takes me talking about the relationship as an absolute threat, act of defiance, or crappy insult, and something to be shut down, instead of seeing it as an offering to make the relationship stronger and to listen, in turn, to his views on said matter, I am out of there.
You need to take people’s offerings at peace and working together, even if not perfect, in the best spirit, otherwise it’s DOOMED (mwahaha!).
When someone talks the talk but can’t walk the walk. It took me a very long time to understand this is an issue for me but I finally left a 2.5 year relationship recently b/c of it. I understand some promises get broken (and of course I am guilty of it too) but if more are getting broken then delivered, it really makes me question the man’s integrity. There comes a point where I don’t even trust what he’s saying anymore and if there is no trust……there’s no foundation.
Natalie and ladies, I am in dire need of advice. This might be a little off topic, but I mentioned in a previous comment that one of my friends is trying to set me up with a man that I’m not interested in. I’ve only spoken to him via email and the phone, but he made some comments that I found really off-putting and calls/texts constantly, plus he’s decided to call me by a nickname that only my close friends use. Now, I’ve never met him in person (which is why I’m creeped out by the aforementioned behavior) and I don’t really want to. My feeling is, isn’t it not very nice to waste his time if I’m already turned off? The problem is, my friend is angry with me that I don’t want to meet him. It’s a frustrating situation. I know she means well, but I feel like I have a right to say no. My thinking is, I’ve never met this person and I don’t think I really owe him anything. Does this sound rational or am I being ridiculous? Your opinions are much appreciated 🙂
All I can say is listen to your guts – if you’re creeped off with this guy there is good reason. You definately have the right to say NO to meeting him or dating him no matter what your friend thinks or how angry she gets. If she likes him so much then tell her to date him.
I went on one of these friends-orchestrated set-ups and it was pretty awful. I also sensed before I wouldn’t be compatible with the guy (based on some off comments he made about women), but felt pressured into at least meeting him once. My advice would be to follow your gut feeling. It’s possibly not even primarily about him – and you certainly don’t have to make it about him to your friend- it’s also how you feel about being set-up. Your friend doesn’t have to go through this – it’s often smugly-coupled friends who enjoy settting up friends. I had to explain to my friend afterwards – when she asked why I had decided not to see him again – that it wasn’t as much ‘fun’ dating as she apparently thought, and that while I guessed she had my best interests at heart (though I suspect it was in part for her entertainment too), I wanted to have a bit more time to myself and to see whether I could meet guys in a more natural way, through work, random social events etc, before opting for more self-conscious set-ups. It would have been much easier to have gone through this before the date, I assure you. You could even say that you’d just rather meet him if chance has it that you do, say in a group. It’s very intense meeting someone one:one, and then it’s a real bugger to then have to cut it off. Save yourself the trouble, I say!
Natasha, one of my closest friends went through this last year. Instead of ‘friend’ insert mother and sister. It was terrible as my friend felt like he was being forced upon her and being a bad daughter for not being attracted to him. They refused to listen to her and kept making calls on her behalf and setting them up. The same advice I gave her is what I’ll give you – never be lukewarm or indirect in your lack of interest. Sometimes we try too hard to be ‘nice’ so the message gets lost in translation in trying to be a people pleaser. “look thanks for thinking of me but I’m really not comfortable with this situation nor am I interested in this man. I know you mean well, but the more annoyed you have got with me and the more you have pushed me to see him, is actually the less interested I have become. While I don’t mind an introduction it is still up to me to make up my own mind about who I do and I don’t want to see. Again, I’m sure you mean well, but can we just leave this whole thing alone now?” As Elle said if you bump into one another socially fine but even then you’re under no *obligation*.
Dear Natasha,
Something about your post really breaks my heart. You’re basically asking, do I have a right to trust my own instincts? Do I have a right to say no to something I don’t want to do?
YOU decide the answer. I am positive that you can decide this one yourself!
Natalie, GTash, Elle and Magnolia, thank you so much for your help! I can’t tell you how much I appreciate it. I followed your advice and it worked out perfectly – to kick off the discussion, I pretty much used your lines verbatim Natalie! As it turns out, she felt terrible about what happened with my ex-AC and that’s why she was so insistent on it, because she felt like if I didn’t meet someone else, I’d end up back with him again or I’d get lonely. I reassured her that even if the US imposed a heavy You Don’t Have A Boyfriend Tax Penalty, I still would hold my ground and that I am perfectly fine with being single. I was very honest with her about why I wasn’t interested in him and let her know that it’s really important for me to be steadfast about trusting my own judgement at this point, for the precise reason of not ending up in another bad situation. I said that it wasn’t so much about finding someone right now, but making sure if I do end up meeting someone, that I’m in a place where I’m not going to let myself be disrespected. Once I put it like that, she totally saw where I was coming from. Thank you, thank you again and I hope all the UK ladies are enjoying their day off! You are all the best 🙂
Urrrgghh – Royal Wedding. Urrrggghhh.
Having to wait 8 years for someone, and then diet herself into oblivion, is clearly not a deal-breaker for Ms Middleton.
PJM
I think this is the one instance where the circumstances are special enough to warrant a pass. I expect there were issues marrying into the Royal family, becoming the future queen, and all the terrible stuff that happened with William’s mother. BOTH of them needed to think long and hard about it. Eight years seems a long time but they met when they were very young. Getting married at 29 seems quite appropriate these days.
The rest of us – we are not the exception!
My post from yesterday wasn’t approved so I’ll rewrite as not to sound too bitchy to PJM. I too agree with grace, this is no ordinary family and no ordinary marriage and as we’ve seen time and time again in that family maybe not a marriage we’d want if its happier ever after you’re wanting.
Actually, she did look really pretty in that dress, and they both looked so happy that I couldn’t be such an old sourpuss!
My dealbreakers were pretty similar to Spinter’s. Another I have is no dating/close friendships with married men. Only thing is when I was younger & would stick to my DBs (date & leave due to deal broken) I found myself alone a lot. I was told by men & some women I “think too much” or my standards were “too high”. So after awhile I’d “lower” them & look past some things. I got EUMs & ACs even more with abuse thrown in! I’m back to sticking by my dealbreakers but it’s hard not to feel like an EUM/AC magnet when even some of the so-called “nice guys” I’ve met turned out to be not so nice when the boundaries came out (they didn’t want to be friends & take things slow but fast forwarding or controlling behavior but other people would say “he’s a nice guy”.) Not a good feeling when the dealbreaker = alone or “turn the other cheek” = with someone but emotionally hurting. Oh well. I’m single again, living my life, raising my teenage son and have my good & bad days. And I’m still learing on here so I’m grateful for that 🙂
This really isn’t easy, is it? I think too many people pile on the superficial dealbreakers like looks, weight, money, and completely neglect the really important stuff. Maybe it’s because recognizing the important stuff forces you to take a good hard look at yourself and the kind of person you really are. Once you’ve done the work though, it sure feels good when you know you have worthwhile standards and are sticking to them!
I love this comment. As the token male around here, I can tell you that both sexes can be equally superficial. Looks will fade and your income is never guaranteed; you had better pick someone you can see yourself with when life gets hard (because it will sooner or later).
I’m tall and not overweight but I’ve been dumped because my income wasn’t seen as high enough. That’s your right, but take a look at yourself too. Do you offer everything that you require? Money, looks, and everything else? If not, you might be searching a long time.
@ JD
When I was a teenager, I thought money was important. Then I kept dating men who had no money when I was in my 20’s. You know what I would love – a man who likes to work and loves what he does. He could be the trash man – as long as he loves what he does. Life is too short for all the superficial stuff – someone who is happy inside makes for someone who is happy on the outside!
I married and had 2 kids with an AC that earned a lot less than I did; when we divorced (I left him) he ‘punished’ me (his words) by asking for and obtaining child support payments; he also left with half of our assets even though I had paid for 80%. And, he was cheating on me. Sorry but I will never expose myself to going through that again, and earning at least as much as I do is now a pre-requisite. I will never be some unworthy AC’s free lunch ever again.
LMA
I lived with someone who earned more than me. He made me pay half for EVERYTHING (down to a sandwich for lunch). I paid half the mortgage and put down the deposit for the flat. When we split, I did NOT get back nearly as much as I put in for the flat. I knew it wasn’t worth dealing with him to get my fair share. He was an abusive AC.
On the other hand, I had a brief relationship with an unemployed EUM. The most EU man I’ve been with yet he would often treat me and was quite vigilant that I didn’t end up supporting him even slightly.
If you want someone who earns the same or more than you, that is certainly your perogative. But be careful, he can be rich or poor and you can still be financially screwed if it’s in his nature to do that.
My personal deal breakers are addictions of any kind:
1. Alcohol: B/F of 11 years had family history, which he also manifested.
2. Crack: B/F of several months did this — end of discussion.
3. Gambling: When I met most recent person, he seemed normal, although he played poker 2 or 3 times a week. Flash forward a year to now:
a. He has lived in seven places in nine months;
b. He has had six jobs in twelve months;
c. He has announced that his goal is to become a professional poker player. The immediate impact to me has been:
(1) He lost his last job, and is no longer looking for a new one.
(2) He plays poker about 7 to 8 hours per night.
(3) He has no money, and no car.
(4) I see him only fleetingly — any movie we attend must be located near a poker location.
(5) We have not had bedroom sex for two months (see #4).
(6) I spend time researching how a bright, talented, funny, diverse, articulate person who shares so many commonalities with me can turn into a zombie based upon this impulse control disorder.
(7) I lament the loss of this person due to #6.
(8) I vow to attend a Gamblers Anonymous meeting to learn more about #6; and finally
(9) I vow to move on.
(3
I would recommend you attend Gam-Anon which is better suited to your needs. GA is for the complusive gambler. Yes it can be a dealbreaker – you will always play second place to the Queen of Diamonds until he gets help. You can’t make him either. It can never be cured only arrested – its a long haul and only if he does the work and works the program. You really have to look at this because its one helluva investment of time and emotion – is this what you want AND are willing to go through what it takes AND if he doesn’t get help accept it will never change – it will only get worse and it can get really ugly – are you prepared to leave. I have heard stories that would make your toes curl. Some people’s bottoms are way the hell down there. Believe me I do know what I am talking about – I am one – 4 years clean this June. It was my escape from me – my addiction taught me alot about myself but only because I work the program and have never relapsed. You have to be aware of that as well. Relapses are common. Its a huge committment – are you prepared to take it on. GamAnon can help learn to live with someone who has the disease but it cannot help you figure out why you were attracted to this person in the first place. Its good information thou. You are right its very much like being a zombie – the complusion controls your every thought, every move – it impacts every area of your life. Don’t take anything personally – its not you and there is nothing you can do about it. He has to want recovery for him – want it more than the Queen of Diamonds. She is a cruel mistress.
I would appreciate some input regarding my situation. I was dating a single dad (of 3 children) for a few months. At the beginning he made a lot of effort to ask me out and woo me. After only a few dates he quickly referred to us as being in a relationship. He then started to tell me that since he had so much on his plate – with work, parenting and other responsibilities, he wanted me to be the one to ask him out and to plan dates with him. When I told him I was not that comfortable with this, he would say things like, “well don’t you want to see me?” Worried about jeopardizing the relationship, I initially agreed and proposed several get togethers, but eventually realized that he had stopped making any effort at all- other than calling and texting me. Five weeks passed in which I did all of the asking (he always agreed to see me, this was usually during the week) but weekends would go by with him not suggesting that we see each other as he was busy with his kids. Friends and family kept telling me to be patient given his situation, but it didn’t sit well with me and I felt unimportant and neglected. This relationship ended once I reached my threshold. I guess I just want to get others’ opinions as to whether they would deem this type of situation as a ‘deal-breaking’ one. Thanks.
Hi Jasmyn,
First, your boundaries and values are your own – they’re personal, like a preference for chocolate ice cream over butterscotch ripple (blech), so if his behaviour crossed your boundaries, you can call it off, and just because there are people who think butterscotch ripple is just fine it doesn’t mean you have to eat it.
That said, to me it seems weird to ask someone else to do all the asking out. The way you’ve written it, it’s as though he said, I’m too busy to keep up my end, so if you don’t do all the initiating then you won’t see me. That’s not cool.
I once asked my ex-AC if he expected me to come to all his events and play the political wife. “If you ever want to see me,” he said. He hadn’t gotten me to that point in my behaviour yet but I felt he was pushing for it. With that comment he showed me the vision of our future he had for us, and it was one where I bent much more to his schedule than I already was.
For me, it’s “feeling unimportant and neglected” that broke the deal, not having a sense of whether or not another would have put up with his behaviour. Believe me, there are likely many others (not readers of Baggage Reclaim) who would line up to put up with his behaviour.
Hi Jasmyn, for what it’s worth, I agree with Magnolia. If he is so important and too busy to make arrangements to be together, that’s a deal breaker in my new book. Another smart woman posted something that has always stuck with me: President Obama is the President of the US and still managed to find time for his wife and kids. None of the guys we are hanging out with can be more important and busier the President of the US, right? I’m right by Magnolia’s side: If you feel “neglected and unimportant”, you are neglected and unimportant. DEAL BREAKER! I would also question the weekend issue. Is he possibly involved with someone else? I’ve been the week day emotional airbag to be sat squarely on the sidelines when it comes to the weekends so a I may be projecting.
I’m a single mom. I would not treat a childless boyfriend in this way.
Yes, of course, my responsibilities are different and much greater. Yes, of course, my daughter always comes first (and anyone who doesn’t realize this quickly gets the boot). I have less time and energy to spend on dating and relationships. But: “Hey, you do all the work for me because I’m so tired”?
Is his ex in the picture at all? Or is he truly solo parenting? If she is, then he has time to himself and should be able to participate on a minimal level in a relationship. If not, then he is just not relationship material. A person who wants a relationship will put effort in, even if they are tired and overextended, and if they can’t, they will realize they can’t be in a relationship right now rather than putting all the onus on the other person. That’s just ridiculous.
I know single moms where the ex is not in the picture, and they either *don’t date* if they don’t have the time and energy for a relationship, or they make it a priority and *participate.*
He is truly a solo parent- wife unfortunately died. Hence, the reason for my sympathy and additional tolerance, I guess. Anyway, thank you for your input. It really helps to hear the perspectives of others 🙂
Hi Nat!
After my self imposed dry spell of 8 months, I met a guy that so far seems like a good guy. He is pursuing me, calling me, no lazy communication thank Goodness! He travelled overseas soon after me met, but he kept in touch by email and called me as soon as he returned to the States.
He seems to fit so far within my newly created boundaries, I’m being very dilligent about paying attention for code red or amber behavior. I feel like an over eager student but it’s ok, I’d rather have this than another EUM!!!
Thank you Nat, I mean it. NC was difficult but well worth it to recognize my own self destructive behavior and that of men not worth my time.
I broke and burned my rose tinted glasses finally!
Thx so much!
“You then have the personal responsibility to assess the risk and see if the person behind the attraction stacks up values wise and ultimately wants the same mutually fulfilling relationship that you do.”
This is the part I missed completely. I was strongly attracted to an assclown and just assumed he was a good guy (cause he told me he was, even when he was acting a fool), that I could trust him (cause he told me too, even though I was staring at evidence I shouldn’t) and that he cared about me (cause he said he did, even though in my heart I knew that no one who cared about me would treat me that way).
The million dollar question is – why in the hell was I so off the charts attracted to such an assclown? That is the part I just can’t get. After years of celibacy and being ok with being alone, why did this particular narcissistic abusive piece of work get me so bent out of shape? It scares me. It really does.
Trying to move forward, I want to learn to trust myself and my gut but when I look at the guys in the past that I have just lost it over, every mother’s son of them turned out to be an EUM. I have had genuinely nice guys in my life but I don’t dream about them or get all hot and bothered. I am truly wondering if there is something wrong with me. I have never gone for the overt “bad boy”, just guys that in the end don’t end up caring about me. Since I have begun reading this site, working on me and recognizing my patterns, I have not been the least bit attracted to anyone. So confused….help.
The attraction part of the brain is closely related to the competitive part of the brain…so actually we can mix up that charged feeling, the one that gets us ready to fight a rival, with romantic attraction. (I am sturggling with this too!)
Debra,
Have you looked into your family history? Do these guys represent something you could never get from someone you were dependent on as a kid?
Lots of kids of alcoholics end up attracted to addicts, for example. Or, in my case, my father is very passive socially and condescending one-on-one and I have ended up being attracted to overly socially aggressive types (me consciously choosing different from home life) whose condescension I didn’t recognize as problematic because it just seemed normal to me (me totally missing the impact and existence of another home pattern).
If all the guys you date are uncaring down the line, you might be missing behaviour that ‘should’ turn you off, but there is also the possibility that the signals they give that would tell you they don’t care are somehow coming across as challenging, or intriguing, or worth investigating, etc.
Though Nat would probably ask you to look at your own EUM characteristics …
Debra… wow, you took the words right out of my mouth. I see very clearly now about my issues and EUM red flag behaviour. I have great boundaries now and know what I deserve and won’t put up with. Have I met one person this past year that I’ve had a remote attraction or physical interest in? Nope! It’s is definitely a little concerning but all I can do is go forward and believe that I’ll meet someone one day. One day it will happen, and in the meantime I’m meant to focus on what my purpose is here in life, what are my dreams and passion. I shall put my energies towards that because I now see that meeting a great man who wants to move in the same path as I do is a bonus in life, not the purpose of my life. I may not have it all now but the way I see it is I have a much better shot at getting everything I want when I don’t waste time on unhealthy situations. Its a huge step. Everything will come when you are ready for it… believe in that.
I was just thinking how a lot of the guys that I’ve broken up with, I’ve I really liked them, but I broke it off with them because I didn’t really like the way they treated me. Then I wondered why, then, if I didn’t really like the way they treated me, then why on earth would I like THEM?
Possibly part of that is that they usually are on their best behavior at first and I get my hopes up, and another part of that is not being able to separate or distinguish between the attraction part and the part of how he treats me.
Somehow I think it gets in our minds that if we’re attracted to them, then therefore that means we must like THEM. But in reality we don’t necessarily like them as a person, we just like the way they look.
It was a huge step for me to realize that my feeling like crap too often is a dealbreaker. I kept waiting for a truly ‘bad’ behaviour, something that no one could argue. Of course, most of the time I addressed behaviour of my ex’s that didn’t work for me, he had a great argument or explanation, and I would lose my sense of feeling justified for having a problem, and would lose my sense of having a ‘right’ to break the deal.
Thanks to this site and my time in NC and focusing on me, I understand that I get to draw the lines around what disqualifies a person from being one I want to spend the rest of my life with. If I wanted to be a total princess and say that I only tolerate men who say “how high” when I say “jump,” that would be my prerogative. If I wanted to say that blowing your nose at the table once is a dealbreaker, I could.
I don’t think either of those boundaries would produce the kind of relationship I’m after, but it’s liberating knowing that I set the rules of who belongs in my club. I learning to set boundaries involves being less afraid of being a bitch. Once you’re not afraid of that, you realize there are all kinds of *real* bitches out there, kicking other people out of their clubs for stupid things like not dressing the way they do or for having an opinion different from their own. They are the ACs.
Kicking people out of Club Magnolia for being totally careless with the club furniture or badmouthing the club or expecting club privileges without behaving like a respectful club member is not bitchy.
Right now there is a very nice guy who I’ve gone out with once who told me at the end of the date, “Keep in touch.” He may very well want me to keep in touch; it seemed that way. But right now a guy who doesn’t say “I’ll call” and do it, one who puts it back on me to follow up, is one I won’t enter a deal with. Too harsh? Maybe, but right now it’s more important for me to learn to call it as I see it, and act based on my own judgment.
Ah Magnolia I like your club rules.
I feel like one should know their boundaries and what they will and won’t accept before they even get in a relationship. But not just TALK about it. BE about it. I guess that’s if we all had great self esteem and an abundance of self love. Unfortunately, this isn’t me. I THOUGHT I was strong and wouldn’t take sh*it from anyone. I once said if a guy either hit me or cheated on me, I would leave. But here I am…..3 yrs with a guy that hits, lies, cheats, disappears @ nite and disrespects me. So, I guess my question is this. How, after repeated acts of disrespect with absolutely no boundaries and accepting so much of his sh*t, do I start to put my foot down now? If he lies to me again, is that a deal breaker? Or do I wait for it to get really bad and get hit again for me to leave? I mean, its all pretty crappy. I wish I had just left after the first time he hit me. I would of saved myself a lot of pain,energy and precious time I’ll never get back again.
Jennifer,
” Or do I wait for it to get really bad and get hit again for me to leave? I mean, its all pretty crappy. I wish I had just left after the first time he hit me.”
I must be in the twilight zone here. I’m confused – do you think that just because you didn’t leave the first time he hit you that you’re stuck in it forever? You aren’t being a martyr or saint by being with a guy like that. It also sounds like you have zero boundaries and will put up with anything and everything this guy feels like giving out. Find out what you don’t like about the relationship you are in now and get into counseling ASAP. Usually when women wait for it to get worse…they end up in a coma.
How do you put your foot down now? Leave. Getting out of the relationship is how you put your foot down. Just because you stayed in it after being treated bad doesn’t mean you have to now. He has already displayed that he doesn’t respect you and is abusive, whether you let him or not is besides the point and doesn’t change the fact that he is abusive. Your participation is staying, which is disrespecting yourself. I know because I stayed to long in a similar situation and it about broke me beyond repair. He’s a jerk, you deserve better, and honestly being alone or even lonely is a way better alternative to being lied to, hit and cheated on. Gather up your strength and chose you.
Jennifer, The past is gone. The future is ahead. Right now is where you make the decisions for your future. Get out of that horrid self-destroying situation. Contact a battered woman’s center. Read Natalie’ s NC download about getting out; preparing to get out. If you can’t monetarily afford to leave think about who you could stay with. Get the hell out! Your life depends on it. Hugs.
Jennifer, I’ve read somewhere that we have 3 choices: we accept a situation as it is, we try to change a situation, we exit a situation. If we try to change a situation and it does not change then we must accept it or exit it. You have come to a potential turning point…your mind knows what is best but you haven’t acted on it yet…it’s scary…but please choose what is best for you and realize you are the only one willing to change the dynamics and that you are the one that must deal with the consequences.
I really don’t know what my “type” is but I learned to throw it out the window long time ago. I know what assclown & EUM behaviors I don’t want, thanks to dating a slew of them.
Proud to say that I am almost 2 months No Contact. I joined a gym. I find myself thinking about my ex-EUM about 50% less. Two months ago, I thought I couldn’t live without him. I gave him too much credit.
But, yes, I ignored the deal breakers with him because I thought that if he loved me enough that he would change them so I tried to be the best I could be. I always said to myself “just a few more months and he will fall in love with me!”. Never happened. Fast forward two years later, the only thing I ended up with is a broken heart and a guy who thought he did absolutely nothing wrong while taking full advantage of my feelings for him.
When I finally (thanks to this blog in part) gained a bit of self esteem and put my foot down, he turned into a grade A A-hole.
The point of this story is….even if you overlook ‘deal breakers’ that are evidence of assclownery and EUM-ness thinking that you would ever be “good enough” to “correct their behavior” or “inspire change”, it never happens. What happens is they take advantage of a gullible, naive individual. Then when you get tired of it and put your foot down the party is over for them. It’s not so easy for them anymore and considering they don’t believe anything is wrong with them, they will likely fight you every step of the way. Eventually, one of you will have to call it quits and that will be that.
It’s better to figure these things out earlier on and let your deal breakers be an actual break, not an excuse to keep trying. Someone doesn’t change just because you have an unrealistic “faith” in them. They have to do it on their own.
Agreed Cindy. Your decision also decides for them that the game is over simply by opting out. If enough women (and men) opt out early with these players then they would have to learn more positive ways of interacting or face the consequences much sooner. Being human means we all crave affection and care…some want it all going their way and give little back. If we can truly establish our boundaries and deal breakers and act on them then we will be creating balanced situations for ourselves and our potential partners.
Hi Cindy. When you said “It’s better to figure these things out earlier on and let your deal breakers be an actual break, not an excuse to keep trying. “, that made a lot of sense. I notice a pattern in my past about having what I now see as deal breakers but instead treating them as red flags or even amber flag s and something to work on or explain my position over and over again. I am realizing that I have been “the woman who talks too much”, trying to convince them why its rude or disrespectful instead of opting out when it persists. And you are right, an ass clown will not accept they they did something wrong or damaged the relationship, this would make them have to change or be accountable.
You hit the nail on the head Cindy when you used the words ‘Unrealistic faith’ in them and how they will take advantage of a naive individual. I fell for MM and believed him when he said he and his wife led ‘separate lives’ but had to stay together due to mortgage/debt. There were some red flags but he had social standing as well as looks and charisma and I always let him talk me round. I let this go on for 7 years and now in my fifties Im on my own again. I had done work on my ‘issues’ when I was younger but that didn’t stop me getting lost in my pattern yet again.I was married twice before but the both left me for other women .Im wondering if there really ever is any guarantees with relationships as there can be so many unpredictable factors ?
Layla
Relationships don’t come with guarantees. But what is guaranteed is this – until you change YOURSELF you will always get the same results. I look back over my previous relationship and apart from the odd mishap which anyone can have, it was down to me and the (bad) choices I made. If I’d followed my instincts and listened to my “This is a dealbreaker, get out” voice, I wouldn’t have got involved with most of these men and greatly increased my chances of a) meeting a decent man (cos decent men don’t pursue women already in a relationship) and b) actually finding him attractive.
You are right on Grace. Trusting yourself and acting on your own behalf is key. It doesn’t excuse the shoddy treatment they dish out, but at the end of each day it is ultimately our decision what we are willing to put up with. It seems so simple and cut and dry when you are thinking about it, but when you are actually faced with the situation then all of a sudden it seems complicated. It’s not that complicated really, we make it so with excuses and denial.
I need to be firm with myself around my own dealbreakers. Here’s the thing: I just saw the guy I described above – nice guy, sweet, respectful, comes out to events that I help organize. We did an event tonight and he came; he stayed afterward to hang out with me and my roommate. It’s still pretty clear he’s interested.
Here’s the thing: he’s not misbehaving, I’m attracted, and the problem is he doesn’t always quite keep up with the conversation. This behaviour has to be a dealbreaker for me, because I wouldn’t feel “met” by this man over the long-term.
He’s so cute and nice, though! Argh!
I suddenly feel tempted in a way that makes me feel like a potential AC! Can’t we just mess around a little? Can’t we just hang out a little and have fun? I suddenly see how easy it would be to just encourage him, enjoy his company for a while, and then back off when I’ve had enough.
I won’t do that. That would be disrespectful. Just thought I would throw into the conversation the idea that someone’s “dealbreaking” behaviour doesn’t necessarily have to be about them being a jerk. Once they display incompatibility, I know I *should* back off.
This is so strange: cutting off the AC was like cutting off an addiction to a terrible drug that made me feel like crap after taking it. Being able to cut off this cutie’s attention is more like staying away from a cookie jar before I ever reach inside. My hormones keep saying: surely one little cookie couldn’t hurt!
Any support you can offer will help! I do think I’m strong enough for this one, though: I’ve gotten into relationships with devoted men who weren’t my intellectual match, with me thinking I could get over it, and I never could and it caused excruciating pain down the line. One thing about my ex-AC I never complained about — he had a super sharp mind!!
So now I must not encourage this simpler sweetheart. I left him this evening saying, basically, call me. Any support/tough love will help.
Magnolia
Definitely don’t start anything if you can’t respect this man. I will add, though, that my brother isn’t quick with words. I ask him a question and sometimes have to wait a while. He’s thinking. He’s an engineer for a firm that we’ve all heard of. They don’t employ just anyone. He’s incredibly useful around the house and can fix anything. He’s kind, reliable and loyal.
People just have different talents.
Magnolia, I’m glad you realise how disrespectful it would be to use him in this way and it would also perpetuate a cycle of unavailability. If you need someone to be an intellectual match for you then again, like Maya (see comment reply above) that’s your prerogative but I would also evaluate *why* this is so important to you. If I had a pound for every woman who told me they went out with an intelligent Mr Unavailable or AC, I’d be loaded. He has a sharp mind for running rings around you. If every man who considered himself super intelligent only went out with super intelligent women, we’d all be done for. What you need more so than intelligence is relationship intelligence and if you prioritise him being a clever dick over emotional smarts, you will end up in an unintelligent relationship. And, I say this in the nicest way possible, but take yourself down off your pedestal because the only place for you to look at this guy is from above and it means you’re looking down on him because you’re intelligent and he’s not in your intelligence league where you could stand to put yourself on a level with him and get to know him. Or leave him alone. But remember that the pool of people who consider themselves super intelligent that are emotionally available is not that big – I hear from a lot of people who are involved with emotionally unavailable and AC academics. One word – ego.
I’m listening. I believe I’ve gotten over the I’m-super-intelligent thing: there are tons of people in my program and in my field and other professions who are brilliant and can keep up a conversation and are also assholes. I don’t think I’m necessarily a better catch or nicer person because I can turn a phrase or articulate an idea.
I just don’t know that I can take it if I express myself in what feels like a normal conversational mode and he consistently comes back with well-meant comments that stop everything flat because he has not fully understood.
My female friends are all people I can talk to and have great, dynamic conversations with; I keep hoping for the same in a mate.
“If every man who considered himself super intelligent only went out with super intelligent women, we’d all be done for.” That suggests that more guys think they are super smart than actually are – am I understanding right? What I wish is that guys who really are super smart would hold themselves to dating their equals. These guys generally don’t want to: they tend to get great jobs, then prefer fawning women wowed by their eloquent and witty speech, accomplishments and money.
I believe that a lot of men expect to be with women that aren’t their match intellectually, and you see a lot of disrespect, or at least power imbalance, happening because of it. If guys prioritised being with a woman who met them rather than a woman they could run rings around, as you say, or a woman who idolized them, you wouldn’t have so many people in lopsided relationships, no?
This guy is giving me the fawning, wowed vibe. It makes me a bit uncomfortable, and I wrote the post out of a genuine place. Is that me putting myself on a pedestal?
Anyway, Natalie, I will let your words percolate; thanks for the thoughtful reply.
Hi Magnolia, I don’t doubt that you post from a genuine place but as is often the case when I hear from women (and sometimes men) that think that they can’t be handled because of their intelligence, or how much money they earn, you inadvertently put yourself on a pedestal. I’m in no way suggesting that this guy is ‘right’ for you and to be honest, there’s billions of people in the world; there’s no big deal in leaving it alone and going on your merry way because you will meet someone else.
Intelligence has nothing to do with lopsided relationships and I’m sorry, but people do not have to be an equal intelligence match to have a relationship as if intelligent people who consider themselves intelligent should only be reserved for such. That’s very elitist. Relationships are about feelings, shared values, mutual love, care, trust, and respect. It is one thing if your primary value is to only be with intelligent people but that’s just not how everyone else thinks. While there are some men that do like fawning women, there are many men that don’t and to imply that a man dating a woman who is less intelligent or not on the same professional level as him as fawning is unfair to women as a whole. A man who is very intelligent and for example has a great job and earns £200K a year, doesn’t *have* to go out with a woman that’s doing exactly the same or similar. He’s not looking for a work colleague. He’s looking for a life partner. Focusing on intelligence is to suggest that it makes a huge amount of difference to the success of the relationship – it doesn’t. Neither does earning the same amount of money. Being intellectually smart is not the same as being relationship smart. Would a man who has met a woman that he’s attracted to, has a mutually fulfilling relationship and they have similar attitudes about what they want out of their life but she’s not as ‘intelligent’ as him or doesn’t earn the same money trade that to be with someone that is as intelligent but he doesn’t feel the same way or they don’t share similar values? NO, and he doesn’t have to. The boyf is an IT engineer. I take interest in his work but if you ask me to explain *exactly* what he does after all this time, I still don’t get it exactly right. That doesn’t mean I’m dumb. Should he trade me in for that? NO. He’s actually quite astute about relationships but he doesn’t ‘get’ everything I do. I’m not trading him in either.
You know, I’ve been on the other end of this and I totally agree. I’ve met a few guys that, without getting to know me, decided “she’s dumb/ditzy/not smart enough for me” and relegated me to the passing time/good for “one thing” bin and it, well, sucked. Let me tell you, I didn’t care how smart they were or what they did for a living, I didn’t think very highly of them! Magnolia, I’m sure you are NOTHING like these idiots, but I would say that it’s tough to tell how intelligent someone is if you’ve only met them once. We all have off nights, some people have different senses of humor, some people are shy around people they don’t know well, etc. Hope this helps 🙂
Thank you Magnolia and Natalie for these posts. You’ve given me a great deal to think about regarding deal breakers. I can identify with everything Magnolia said and thank you Magnolia for posting. I had to re-read to make sure I didn’t post. Great response Natalie. Wow, things sure get complicated when you start thinking about this stuff.
NML
Ego has a lot to do with it. From a fairly early age these guys will have been favoured by their teachers and even parents. If they were good at sport as well, the sky’s the limit. Add in the testosterone and you’ve got a walking talking one-man ego trip. It’s definitely a man thing. I just don’t see that level of egotism in girls (I trained in teaching).
Also, a clever person of either sex is much more able to deceive themselves, never mind others. “I’m this, that, and the other …. so complicated … you can’t understand … blah bah blah”. I know, I did it for decades.
There’s nothing wrong with being intelligent, but I would not rate it above other qualities or talents. Also, being good with words almost necessarily means being bad at other things. I’m almost handicapped by my lack of spatial awareness. I’d trade several IQ points to be able to drive, kick a ball in the right direction or know which knob on the cooker corresponds to which ring.
We’re different, it’s not about being “more than” or “better”.
Back to Maya, it’s better to cut it off than send mixed signals. We know what it’s like to be on the receiving end of that. Or if you can approach it with a genuinely open mind, then it may be worth giving it a try.
I just reread your comment to Maya. Interesting: I never understood how people could be very picky about cultural backgrounds. I’m from a mixed-race family and have always felt having rules about only dating certain race/faith was rigid.
As I say, I post from a genuine place. I’m looking to learn love, not to hold on to ego. I want to know what my values are. If this “intelligence” piece is a true value for me, it certainly doesn’t make my search easier. I’d love to take more time to get to know this guy but I am really scared of leading him on if I’m already feeling a bit mismatched.
My roommate commented, unprompted, by the way, that she thought that he was sweet but that he missed points and that he and I were not totally ‘in the same place’.
Magnolia I was just thinking of you and this came to me:
You need to be attracted to intelligent or even super intelligent (if that’s your thing) available men. What you don’t need is to be blinded by intelligence and putting up with inappropriate behaviour. Like chemistry, looks, money etc, them being intelligent doesnt make bad behaviour acceptable. You also need to ensure that if high intelligence is your first and foremost criteria that you don’t make assumptions about someone that possesses it and correlate that level of intelligence and assume that he possesses other qualities, characteristics, or values that you want. It’s also that if he doesn’t, you don’t assume that because you’re intelligent and you think you possess these things, that *he* could or will because that is not the case.
That’s where I’m coming from. My last two bf’s were very bright high-achieving types, and both were lying, arrogant jerks. Actually, around each of them, it’s amazing how often I felt stupid. I went for the smarts and certainly did get confused, thinking: they are smart people, why can’t they figure out how their behaviour undermines our relationship?? To be fair, I am a smart girl, and I took years to figure out that the best course of action with these sharp-but-vicious types was to not engage! 🙂
My glib post comes after feeling poor-me after making a connection with someone who has so many of the qualities I truly value: kindness, attentiveness, interest in others. I’m impatient and want him to be the one; he isn’t, and I have to avoid the impulse – such a strong impulse! – to overlook the information I have in front of me, dive into something and try to ‘make’ it work.
I thought about your words and think that maybe the faith or cultural background analogy is a good one.
It IS a big deal to me to feel understood and to feel like I am talking to someone from my ‘tribe’. I have been burned in the past dating guys that couldn’t keep up and it always broke both our hearts in the end: maybe it is like finally realizing that you can’t go around dating people from other ‘backgrounds’ if you really feel that you can only be comfortable with someone who shares your background.
It’s like wanting to play a fun tennis match when you’re a pretty quick player and the other person is always hitting the ball out of the court. It sucks but I don’t want a mentor role in my love life. I am looking for a co-pilot, and I have to step back from guys who I experience as letting me, or being unable not to let me, drive most of our interaction.
That said, an aside: profession and intelligence often don’t have much to do with each other. There are idiots at the top and geniuses working night shift at the gas station.
@grace: Point taken about verbal stuff. I can drive conversations but only since getting to Baggage Reclaim have I discovered all the ways I’ve not been driving my own life.
Thanks to you both for weighing in.
When I was 17, I fell for a guy who is literally a genius. He is also hilarious and knows what seems like “everything” there is to know about politics and underground art – two of my main interests. I was hooked on him until I was 23, although he treated me terribly. This guy seemed so much above any other guy I knew or had ever met in terms of intelligence that I just couldn’t feel attracted to anyone else – no one could compare. And I always thought if I ever did meet another guy, he would have to be similarly intelligent…
Then I moved to another country and for the first time fell for a new guy. This guy was a complete moron, seemed to be missing more than a couple chips in his brain, and treated me horrendously from day 2. And I fell head over heels, obsessive, for two years.
What this experience taught me was that sometimes the personality qualities we think we value most are really just intimately connected to our memory of what attracted us to our exes – the same people who hurt us so much. The next person we fall for might not have that personality quality at all.
My current boyfriend is very smart, but not a genius, and also his strengths are not in areas of culture. He is an engineer, and is exceptionally handy and spatially intelligent. But he couldn’t keep up with me in any discussion of art or politics, and his linguistic skills don’t compare with my own. And yet I have never been happier.
Just putting that out there. 🙂 Good luck, Magnolia!!!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMEEEEEENNNNNNNN!
Thanks all who responded. I love NML’s story of the friend who didn’t want white or overweight and has found the love of her life in that package. If I end up blissful with someone who doesn’t get what I do or how I talk – that would be ironic, maybe, but I would take it! I would send NML a fruit basket!
This thread has given me a lot to think about: all you happy women have to be doing something right.
In my youth, my father would always make comments that would go over my mom’s head. I was embarrassed for her, and my dad would win our loyalty by joking at her expense. In high school I hung out with guys who became lawyers, professors and engineers: in a group where the sharpest-tongued ones dominated the group. Maybe I have some expectations around conversation I’m not aware of.
All that said, the good guy who sparked this whole thing isn’t following up on our meetings, so it’s probably all moot. I’m trying to focus on how I feel when I’m with people, and I am just happy to have met someone around whom I feel respected, admired and safe; and want that again with the next guy, mensa member or not.
My ex boyfriend and I each had dealbreakers that we chose to overlook. If I could do it over again, I would have broken up with him after we had a great weekend together that then ended in him going to another state to watch a football game, not tell me, get wasted, lose his phone, and then not have the balls to call me back and instead throw a pity party for himself via text messages when I had been the one losing my goddamn mind worrying about him for the past 12 hours. That behavior did not match the kind of relationship he claimed to want and demonstrated his lack of empathy and impulsive desire to not have to answer to anyone. All things that ran through my mind at the time, but I forgave fairly quickly…or pretended to. 7 months later I realize I should have listened to my gut and not people who are NOT me and their admonishments that I needed to lighten up and not put him on a leash. Um, common courtesy is not a leash. It’s a necessity to me. DEALBREAKER! 🙂
NML and readers, I am smarting today after meeting up last night with the guy I have been seeing for a few months. We had a conversation – the debrief, I guess – and his view was that I am wonderful and beautiful etc (I write with some irony), but (always the but!) I am too threatening because I am so aware of relationships, to the extent that, he said, it’s like going out with someone watching a relationship, as well as in it. All quite true (sigh). But then he said all this other stuff like, you have so much going for you and you’re so generous with yourself and what you’re about, that it makes men feel inadequate, and maybe a passive girl would be better, and that your expectations make men feel defensive and defeated. While some of this is fair, there’s also a chunk of making me responsible for his limitations, and I said that – he was the guy who would say he only had 5 mins to talk because of work, and if I made any comments about my needs, he would say, ‘But I am a good guy, [this behaviour] is not evil. Why do you have to bring this up?’ Then he would be more controlling and withdrawing. Still, even holding onto Natalie’s image of not doing cartwheels for someone, I feel a bit down, not because I am in denial about this guy being right for me – we obviously had some major mismatch in our communication style among other things, but because some of the comments he made make me feel – for small moments – hopeless. I am finding this whole ‘you’re too good/bright/emotionally smart/funny etc’ for me all rather bogus, and I get it a lot. It usually comes with the old ‘and you could hurt me’. Some of these guys seem to want to go out with a guide dog – loyal, by their side, quiet. But I fear if I want to be in a relationship – and I have to consider why – then I am going to have to play a very different, unnatural role. I don’t want to think like this. It’s stupid, but it’s the sort of feedback I am getting. Guess I have to hold onto boundaries and work on being what? I don’t want to be in this corner, as NML would say.
Elle,I totally understand how you feel. I’ve had a few guys pull very similar lines with me that had me thinking for a long time that while these are characteristics and qualities that they’d be attracted to, they’d eventually go off me and say I was ‘too intelligent’ or ‘too something’. I actually bumped into the best friend of an ex Mr Unavailable who told me he’d been crazy about me but I was..and then gave similar reasons to you and also added that he couldn’t live up to my obvious need for a black man. I burst out laughing and then I got really annoyed & let him have it with both barrels – that whole thing entirely made up! We never even *spoke* about black anything the entire time!
The moral of the story – Just because someone says its their reasons doesn’t make it true and certainly doesn’t mean you should, for eg dumb down.
This guy is a twit and as a classic workaholic that avoids intimacy, he has come up with reasons to justify his behaviour. Flush and move on.
You are such a magical person. LOVED that last lines (and laughed about the black excuse). It’s all about making those reasons – anything to avoid feeling uncomfortable, let alone vulnerable. It was exactly the case – the reasons for which he claimed to pursue me became the problem. One thing I need to work on is not taking feedback from dubious sources quite so fairly and seriously. I am way too conscientious sometimes…it can lead to emotional self-harm. Thanks, Natalie. xx
“One thing I need to work on is not taking feedback from dubious sources quite so fairly and seriously.”
I have a problem with this one, too.
To all the above discussion on intelligent guys who treat their gfs badly I would add that they can be manipulative to the extreme.
It takes a very healthy self-esteem plus many friends/family who support you and believe in you to undue the vile effect of such manipulation. It’s all too easy to start believing them because they usually take some real examples (we all make mistakes now and then) and they attach guilt onto it. It is of no avail to apologize to them for your perceived mistake, they just use that as an invitation to more abuse.
As Lord Tennyson said “A lie which is half a truth is ever the blackest of lies.”
Natalie, I busted out laughing over the “obvious need for a black man” line! You’d think he’d come home unexpectedly and found you lighting candles while weeping inconsolably over an Idris Elba poster and ordering him self tanner in bulk. The last time I saw my ex-AC, he was moping over a work problem and I gave him some advice, he looked at me and said, “You know, you’re actually really intelligent.” The look on his face can best be described as, “All of a sudden, after 5 years, I’ve discovered that this woman is not a complete idiot. This is AWFUL.”
Elle, as a great one for taking feedback from dubious sources, I can relate! I think you are beyond awesome and I’m so glad you recognize that you can do way, way better than this guy 🙂
Thank you, Gala and Natasha. I appreciate the chin-up! That Tennyson quote is gold. And that ‘awful’ realisation: wow.
I know for sure that this guy is not worth my attention as far as a relationship goes – it would be akin to putting my head in a cement mixer – but the ongoing niggle is that I have to agree that I am too analytical about relationships now. I have those tendencies anyway – I strongly think that growing up in the household I did with a lot of emotional ickiness (read: uncertainty and aggression) and a heavy bias towards the ‘rational’, I learnt to use my mind as a shield. I was always having to explain away crap behaviour to myself, otherwise I’d just feel horrible and paralysed. If I could understand it rationally, I would not feel it.
Now, I find in relationships I over-think and over-talk, quite often, as if I am describing it, rather than being in it. This was always there, to some degree, but, in truth, since the AC-experience last year, when I overlooked so much crappy treatment because of the aforementioned lust and competition factors, I find myself in analytical overdrive. And while the guys I am meeting are genuinely avoidant types (and therefore no good to anyone, really), I am also, as the recent workaholic man said, ‘not helping’ by being so aware of everything. It made him feel, he said, always in trouble. This is kind of bull because I don’t think my expectations of him, for instance calling for more than 5 mins, were gratuitous (and just about me trying to enforce rules etc). But still, there is something truthful there. I really want to be able to feel brave enough to let go of some of the concepts and theories, and sit there.
I feel like I do this, and move into what I am most naturally (which is more gentle, affectionate, and bubbly), but then if I sense danger (ranging from innocent distance to not-so-innocent stonewalling), I am back to the intellectual realm. It sucks. I am focusing on being patient and on my other pursuits and physical health, but I am concerned I am only getting better at the ‘observer’ relationship.
When you sense danger you direct your attention; you zone in…that is self protection. Makes perfect sense to me. Watch a dog playing…and then see him come to alert when he senses danger…it seems a natural response for the she-wolf in us.
Elle, I’m in the same boat. I think Leisha is right, it’s totally rational self protection and it comes from a place of “If I know what you’re doing and why it’s unacceptable, you can’t hurt me with it.” Maybe it feels like it’s coming from a weird over-intellectualized place because we were used to being in crappy relationships where we ignored red flags/crossed boundaries, etc. Personally, I was the queen of “Yes I know that he’s done x,y,z that’s just straight up wrong, but I looooooove him, so therefor I’m going to stick around!” I had to learn how to get out of my “feelings” and get real about what’s actually going on. I wasn’t operating out of a sense of “natural” boundaries and now I’ve had to learn step by step how and when to enforce them. I think as time goes on, it’s going to feel less and less strange for us, because now that we’ve learned why certain things are code reds/ambers and how to act on it, it’s going to be more like second nature to recognize it and hit the infamous flush handle!
Emotionally unavailable academics is my specialty. Their brilliance was always an incredible thrill early on, and paired with good looks, the attraction felt intoxicating. It is indeed a feeling that comes very close to competition. I seem to like them most when I think they’re smarter than me, as long as they flatter me about my intelligence. It’s dumbass simple, ironically, I do realize it really needn’t take a Ph.D. to figure out. Then, when I’m hooked enough to be vulnerable and express feelings, my last EUM especially, would dish out the most outrageously arrogant, condescending, cold hearted stuff. Poets and philosophers are guys who seem oh-so-sensitive and introspective that I would never suspect that they have little true empathy or compassion. My ex-husband was relatively harmless, in that he actually would admit he had hurt me, and seeing himself in this light got him to feel very sorry — for himself, for being imperfect I suppose. The next one, my rebound bad boy literature Ph.D. would simply dismiss my wishes and needs in the relationship as irrational or insecure. I stuck around because he was good looking, witty, sharp, and incredibly opinionated. I figured out within days from his bandcamp stories that he drove away his ex (the mother of his child) with his hypercritical and argumentative nature, something he still can’t bring himself to admit. Yet I stayed, because I was desperate for a strong, manly presence (daddy figure – he’s a professor too) hoping to be the exception by striking a balance between agreeing while still being an intellectual match. Good luck! I feel so compromised in the aftermath. A year and a half of barely there relationship with intense daily mindf*#$ery (and a six-week NC attempt round the one-year-mark)…. and when I eventually stopped initiating contact and responding to sexual advances, within weeks, no calls. Not a one, no explanations, no goodbyes. So I am NC’ing him right back — three months now. I’m still at the stage where I want to get into his head to see how in the world he is justifying this disrespect. After over a year of hours long, daily discussions he just cut out without a peep. So many red flags and dealbreakers were along the way: most…
Cavewoman, it’s that classic case of taking your father, adding all the things you’d like or hope for him to be, and then going out and seeking it – like righting the wrongs of the past and basically daddy hunting. Unfortunately what you’re looking for as a conflicted, unhealthy mashup of things – Mr Unavailable
Cavewoman – the two men who have caused me the most pain in my life have also been (good-looking, impressive) academics/high achieving graduate students. They’re so good at arguments and cool debates. They can word their way out of anything, or just hide away in the things they can control: their books and writing. It’s a complete mindscrew because, as someone else mentioned on this site, you think that their intelligence translates into an ability to be honest with themselves (and you) and to understanding what’s best for the relationship to work. These two guys actively did things to make peace and stability impossible. Meanwhile, I was hooked by that horribly intoxicating sense of competition, flattery and lust. Crap, but starting to amuse me.
Wow – have we been dating the same people?! I have specialised in overachieving, high flying men – in the academic/medical sense (as opposed to high achieving in the £ sense – not that one is better or worse than the other, but at least with the latter I may have got a few dinners paid for me!) .
Looking back, I think the admiration I had for these ACs fired up my love of them. I too just naively assumed that someone who was intellegent in the work sense, and had integrity in the workplace would automatically translate into relationship intellegence/integrity. Quite the opposite. In fact with the last AC, I was left feeling awful because it was as if he delt with his entire life with integrity except for one part – me, which of course made me feel like it was my fault, and if I was a just a bit nicer/better looking etc etc then I would be deemed worthy and bestowed with the full attention and love of his greatness (cough).
Maybe I’m attracted to these types because of my lack of esteem – I want their intellegence/achievements to rub off on me, if someone as ‘good’ as they are wants me then that must mean something good about me.
Also although I can’t connect with it, I assume that there is a daddy element to it – these men have been older than me (and not just in age if you see what i mean, lifestyle too etc) – hell when i was 21 I was having the stereotypical affair with a uni tutor 20 years odd older than me. Can’t actually believe now I thought he would leave his gf (instead he actually married her whilst seeing me!). Maybe I want to be looked after too much rather than be a co-pilot?? Lord knows my own dad was (is) far too busy drinking to emotionally connect / give a ff about me.
You’re totally spot on Nat with the ‘classic workaholic that avoids intimacy’ – these men just stick their head in work – maybe its the only place they can find self worth – lets face it they dont seem to be able to summon up any decent behaviour outside of it!
But how do you get rid of a daddy complex – when it’s imposible to ‘fix’ the relationship with your father and move on?
Dear I’mFree, Gala, Elle, Runnergirl, TeaTime, Magnolia, anyone else I’m forgetting who would want in on Club EUA? Let’s all make a solemn pledge that substituting clever discussions for emotional intimacy is a deal breaker!!! Substituting anything for intimacy should be a deal breaker of course, but now we have our very own red flags, right?
peace and love,
cavewoman
Hi Elle, exactly!!! Your stories sound eerily similar to mine. Oh, the ‘life of the mind’ excuse/escape was the story of the latter portion of my marriage, starting with the birth of our first child.
These men are so out of touch with the effect they have on others that they hardly realize their compliments/excuses are quite hurtful. Although my latest (and last!) overeducated relationship-idiot didn’t even give me the chance to debrief, I realize I wasn’t missing much. I’d actually heard it all before. It’s their low self-esteem projected onto you as your impossibly high standards. That way they can’t be held accountable. They wouldn’t really want a ‘doormat’ either: they’re too good for that. These are all cases of them overestimating their ability to be available at the outset. And then when real (though one-sided) feelings develop, they remember they can’t handle “high maintenance” or “not ready for a relationship” and they’re “just being honest with you”, and you better be impressed with their courage and insight! My EUA (Emotionally Unavailable Academic) actually used all those words. I wish I had acted more “high maintenance”, he would have disappeared sooner and wasted less of my time.
Of course you should have expectations, Elle. You’re right that you two were incompatible. You should expect warmth, affection, care, attention, trust, support, a sense of belonging and emotional safety — stuff he’s not interested in giving. He’s just not capable of deriving pleasure from doing that.
Too bad for them…
Well ladies your posts have been fantastic. I thought I was the only one out here in a sea of Emotionally Unavailable Academics (EUA’s). May I join the Club of EUA’s? What a great phrase. I’ve spent my entire life attracted to EUA’s probably because I am one. It started when I was 19 and my 31 year old professor “chose” me out of all the adoring 19 year olds in his classes . I made the same mistake of assuming that because they are brilliant in their fields, tremendously funny, and can turn a phrase, it would automatically translate into a relationship. (Looking back, I apparently don’t worry much about looks and appearance.) I’ve chosen brains over braun, repeatedly and oh was I wrong, time and time again. From geologists to philosphers (the worst emotional partners ever in my experience) to bad boy lit guys, to biologists, art historians, and lawyers, I’ve experienced the gamet of academia. I’m thinking that maybe brains will be a deal breaker since I have repeatedly chosen brains over braun to no avail. Thank you Magnolia for your insights and all for you who have posted regarding your experiences with brilliant but unavailable academics. Since I’m a recovering EUA, I can say it is so much easier to read a book and discuss it with someone who appreciates that book; it is entirely different however to have a mutually fulfilling relationship with that individual. Thanks so much. I was entrenched in the thinking that a guy had to be brilliant, a great writer, and the alpha male leader of the pack. I also fall for the leaders of the pack, even though I’m a leader too. It is tough on the dance floor with both of us trying to lead. I overlook the belly and the bald head. I think the brains thing may be similar to the physical appearance. Neither brains nor braun is going to necessarily translate into a healthy, happy, commited relationship. Book smart isn’t relationship smart. I can be sharp as a tack when it comes to reading a book or a statute and dumb as a post when it comes to a relationship. You all are great. Thank you Natalie for the safe and healthy venue.
EUA – Emotionally Unavailable Academic. Love it!!
I was also involved with an academic, and I can honestly say part of the reason why I stuck around and ignored the red flags and potential dealbreakers was because I really thought his intelligence and high-status education (phd – in counselling psychology for pete’s sake!) was all the good he needed to have. I truly believed what others here have mentioned – that his intelligence in academics, and his people-relating skills from being a psychologist, would bleed into all areas of his life and make him the perfect man who could be smart enough to understand my needs, have empathy, etc. I associated many positive characteristics to the fact that he was a phd, but none of those characteristics were ever there. In fact, he was just using what knowledge he was gaining to manipulate people in his life.
I’ve reached a point now (about a year later) where I’m becoming thankful he treated me the way he did. It really has shown me to never make large assumptions, and never let any sort of title or label blind me from red flags. If a guy acts like an assclown, he is an assclown, no matter what letters he has following his name.
Too bad for them indeed!!
This is one EUA over here curled in a foetal ball because she doesn’t know intellectually where to go from here! I don’t know what to begin valuing in myself if it isn’t brains and accomplishments first.
When the boys in grade school and high school called me ugly and disgusting, I figured well, if I’m so physically unattractive, maybe someone will eventually love me for my mind. By undergrad, I was getting scholarships by day and sexually assaulted on ‘dates’ at nights. Brains didn’t help me out of those situations.
Isn’t it brains that has me turning to Baggage Reclaim to figure this stuff out? Argh!!
But all these posts are making it sound like intelligence, as we’re talking about it here, is just a superficial trait? I’m confused. Am I to understand that to others, going for smarts is as superficial as going for looks?
Like you, runner, I have never held out for looks. Short, bald, fat, effeminate and thin, whatever – as long as they could hold a conversation. But look where that has got me.
This discussion has been so helpful, and potentially radical if it means opening me up to totally different values around engaging with people. As I’ve written elsewhere, I’ve been tearing my hair out wondering why I can’t be fulfilled in academia when it’s where I’ve (sort of) fit for so long. (Writing the essays, and doing the posturing in the essays, kills my spirit.) But I am starting to wonder if the whole EU profession fits only as long as I stay EU …
Magnolia, value isn’t about necessarily rolling out a life resume and listing out your qualities and characteristics. Value is about having confidence that you are a valuable entity in your own right, deserving of love, care, trust, and respect and who believes that they are worthwhile. That’s worthwhile the effort, worthy of a decent relationship, worthy of opting out, worthy of being treated well by you never mind others. We can often begin to think we are not worthwhile when we internalise external experiences and references. Next thing, someone who isn’t worth the steam off your pee because they disrespect your boundaries is worthy of determining who you are. We then get to believe that we are not good enough. When we believe we are good enough, we have self-esteem and we’ll get on with being authentic and living our lives congruently with our values.
It is easy to latch on to something like intelligence or looks, wealth, job and use those to define our success and what we are worth – but they are just one facet of us. We can inclined to latch on to these things when we are not sure that we are good enough in our own right *without* these things.
Anything is superficial if you take that one thing and make assumptions about it and correlate it to the rest of the person and assume that because they possess one thing, they possess other qualities, characteristics and values that you believe someone you are attracted to would have.
Natalie: AAAAAAAAMMMMMMMEEEEEEENNNNNN! Damn You are GOOD…We are So blessed that you are here.
Magnolia, I’m going to make a really tacky joke here…it’s sorta like a big dick…can hit all the right spots…but it don’t mean a thing if it ain’t got that swang…same with intelligence…it’s how you use it…mind without heart means nothing…hopefully this isn’t too blunt to be posted. A person may not have gained an incredible education in academia but have a fabulous mind together with a tender loving heart…a person may have had a horrid atmosphere to come up in and never developed their potential. A person may be super intelligent in several areas but protects themselves from emotional risks in assorted ways. A person overcomes or does not overcome what life has taught them. Many people do not have access to the information that we are getting. You have a mind and an emotional capacity for whatever you need. The red flags and knowledge of your boundaries and what you cannot live with in peace is what you need to be aware of: these are the deal-breakers; not the superficial stuff. Peace.
If you did get into his head you’d might see he’s justifying his bad behaviour by blaming it on you.
In my case, the guy (high achiever, academical) first pursued me like nuts, I then gave him a chance due to his persistence and it didn’t work, we constantly argued, so I left, but we had some discussions on what has happened. Next thing I hear it from his colleague that I should finally get it that “my” guy is just not interested in me and that I should stop pursuing him…wtf??! This colleague only knew that we had argued, but nothing of the whole dating stuff. Later I asked the ex guy why he said that to his colleague (since it was none of his business anyway). He said it was all my fault, since I couldn’t keep professional stuff separated from the personal. He didn’t feel any remorse and I doubt he even knew that he did anything wrong. So much for integrity and intellect.
My granny has said to me when I was little that having a degree or being a professor says nothing of the culture in the heart. She specifically warned me to be careful and keep my eyes wide open.
Yes Gala, whatever he’s thinking it’s something outrageously unreasonable no doubt. It must have been maddening for you to hear that back — after time and a good dose of no contact it’ll just seem funny.
More funny stuff, something else he has said was that “women are all nice for the first couple of years… ” Well, we first met about two years ago. At the time he said it, I was determined to prove to him that I wasn’t one of those fickle ones. Speaking of a missed red flag! Next time I’ll consider myself warned instead.
Yes, I do hope it’ll seem funny. Right now I’m still terribly sore about it. I know why he did it – he’s a coward, but still…it really really hurts..even now, when I don’t care about being with him any more.
Gala: I met, by random chance, one of those mind-bending life coaches the other day, and he told me that when you’re hurt by something there’s usually a lie involved. I debated this with him for a while – because it was tied up with some very ‘Matrix’-y ideas – but I had to agree that sometimes we make our pain worse by tying it to a bigger lie, or by not fully acknowledging a truth about ourselves or the other person.
In your case, the guy sounds like at the very least someone on his own path to self-denial and ridiculousness. He would have treated anyone like that, and he’s too proud for a happy relationship. He’s threw that professional v private distinction at you to intellectualise and distance himself (see my above comment about doing that!), and to feel superior because he’d been sniffed out.
But if it still hurts, according to this secular-guru guy I met, there must be a lie (even a small one) you’re telling yourself about yourself or the world to keep it there. “The truth is light”, he said.
I am not sure of the full implications of this, but I do think that when I am hurt by someone/something, I’ve often amped up the injury or decided not to look at the full facts in some way. I focus on the worst bit, and not on any of the other lovely things the person offered, however imperfectly, and not on the simpler truths about what when on.
My deal-breakers, once we are in a relationship, are:
1. Violence, be it physical or verbal. It never happened to me, but just the mere idea scares me to death. I come from a very decent, nice, quiet family, and I’ve never seen violence around me, or never saw them insulting each other. Therefore, I would NOT handle that.
2. Cheating. I think that once it happens, it always will.
3. Another thing I do not like is a negative attitude. Imagine a partner who pulls you down, not encouraging your evolution as a person, or not letting you do the things you want to do, or not letting you live the life you want to live. That also includes someone with a patronizing attitude.
4. Excessive jealousy or controlling tendencies, especially when he’s never had any reason whatsoever to be suspicious of me.
I know that any man I may date in the future will get the red card if he so much as tries to put me down in any way. I had too much of it in the past and I’m sensitive to when it happens. I no longer sweep these things under the carpet.
I know what my deal breakers are, I have put them in place and I walk away from situations that are no good for me.
That, at the moment isn’t my problem. I feel like I’ve built such a huge wall around myself, maybe it’s too big. I don’t socialise much as I only have two good friends left with busy lives. I used to be good at getting up and getting out there – I’m no longer doing that and I’m finding the reward of my boundaries being in place is loneliness. Maybe this is the half way point or something?
I can identify with this too, except my friends are back home & far away and as an introvert (among other things), it’s harder for me to get out there. It’s not as simple as “just do it”; it literally takes energy & effort to get out there. But everything else you said about the deal breakers and etc., I can identify with it all.
“It’s not as simple as “just do it”; it literally takes energy & effort to get out there.”
That’s exactly my problem. Whilst I have no problem with talking to people I still have to push past my shyness. I would love to have a partner to share life, holidays and time with but for me it’s more important for now to get my confidence back. The past few years and all it’s happenings have totally zapped at my confidence. That has been difficult to admit to myself because I was always ultra confident – until I no longer wasn’t.
I do need to get out more. Not to find myself or bag myself a man, but to build my interests up again and make new connections. If I believe in myself a bit more then it will happen!
Spinster, I relate to what you say being an introvert. While I can have my moments here and there where I’m more talkative per se, I mostly stay to myself. People sometimes comment that I think too much. I’d like to make new friends as I’m rather lonely but actually going out in the world and 1. finding who to be friends with, 2. talking to them, 3. what to talk about, 4. keeping that friendship going, 5. what if it doesn’t go anywhere……….etc is overwhelming.
I know people who have no problem talking to others up a storm and no people everywhere they go. It’s painful sometimes being around those people because I feel like I’m not even there. And I have had times where these same people sort of patronize me for not being so outgoing. Generally I wind up dating men who are more outgoing than myself. I have issues with just talking B.S. to people and it not amounting to anything. Seems like a waste of time. It is hard to “just do it.” Plus I don’t really trust people when I see so many act nice to others’ (me included) face then trash them when they’re away. Seems to be much easier to stay to oneself.
Color Orange,
I feel very much the same way. I have few good friends and am not good at making new ones or cultivating friendships. I am social sometimes and do okay at parties or gatherings but usually I dread them or they wear me out, literally. I think my lack of friendships has made me behave codependent with boyfriends in the past and I lose myself. Almost like I put pressure on them to fill my life, because without them it was pretty lonely. It’s like: Open, add boyfriend and stir. presto, I have a life now. Not healthy, I know.
jennynie, you just described me to a T
I am tallgirl, and I am a recovering person who had the wrong boundaries. Now, I recognize that I became very interested in men who were not very interested in me. Just even recognizing that is an amazing step. And no more long stories about how I was done wrong. I let it happen, and I can control that – not let them in, and make them show that they are interested – that is now my trigger for emotionally investing. This means that I now will only tolerate people who are willing to engage, and be clear in their interest. This does not mean they have to call every day, it means I can see a willingness to learn and grow our interaction. I may not be with anyone right now, but I no longer invest too soon and if I feel like I am, I go back to myself and self esteem. I challenge myself to understand why I am investing in someone who is not showing up.
For me, it’s the opposite. Most of my female friends have advanced spatial intelligence, with their boyfriends always being dumbfounded spatially.
But my female friends still love their spatially handicapped boyfriends because they are good in other areas like doing the yard work around the house, mowing etc.
A deal breaker for me is if the guy is a drug addict. I say this because today after six or seven years I “heard” from an ex via FB. First he requested my friendship. I denied it. Then he sends me a message stating he just wants to be friends and if I don’t want to do that then it’s cool. I decline to respond because I feel silence is my answer to this one. Now this may sound harmless enough but I went through H-E-L-L with him. I won’t get into the specifics but he was (and i’m sure still is) a pothead. From the time he woke up to the time he went to bed, he would smoke pot innumerable times a day. He was verbally abusive, immature, disrespectful and just a slew of other things. I was crazy too. But I laughed at his request and then felt glad that I’m past that. I remember being in that mess so so deep. The constant roller coaster, never knowing what would happen one day to the next. Just knowing he was a major asshole! That is hopeful for me. I have come a good ways since then.
Yes, I think you’re right. I am also someone with the odds stacked against me so high that it gives me a migraine, but if you can do it, then so can I – IF I WANT TO. I am getting more aware of deal breakers, at any rate.
Just now, though, I think I’m actually emotionally unavailable myself. I think I have a lot of healing to get through still, and it’s frustrating because I still fall into the trap of thinking ‘a nice bloke will fix all’. And of course this is so untrue, and I’m so unready that I’m not sure I’d even recognise a good bloke if I saw one.
(I had contact at Easter, combined with domestic row with mother, too much wine, and not enough sleep, and perimenopause, and period, and the overall impact reduced me to a screaming wreck …!)
Sigh
P.
@Elle
Yes, your life coach is probably right.
Maybe the part of being so hurt is the fact that I haven’t behaved well either, he was very rational about it all (and I admired his composure) while I was emotional (and feeling ashamed for that – it’s, oh, so unprofessional 🙂 ).
As I see the whole thing in retrospect (and trying not to over-analyse) I don’t think that either of us is a bad person. We just met at the wrong time, each of us unprepared and not mature enough for it. And with enough baggage to sink the Titanic. And we both hurt each other. And that’s all there is to it.
I haven’t been an angel when things got rough and I guess I still think it was all my fault and that I drove him away by not being a rational and cold woman who would just take the blow and gracefully walk away.
I know I behaved like a child (and I’m still a bit ashamed of it), because at that time my career started to fall apart and then he decided he doesn’t want things to progress. It was like I was losing everything I ever wished and worked hard for. I felt like I was losing the ground under my feet. I admired him and the way he was thinking. Going through rough patches in my life, his support and care would be dearly appreciated.
I see now how he really was just as lost and maybe scared of everything, just like I was and maybe he just wasn’t prepared to invest, he overrated his interest, or something. It’s human to make mistakes. I find that I can’t really be angry with him any more. Just compassionate and understanding. It’ll take a bit longer to find that for myself though. Maybe that’s the lie the guru was referring to. But I’m working on it.
Gala, I was very touched by your comment. You know, you are human. You live, you love, you want to be loved, and yeah, you make mistakes and do things that in retrospect give you pause for thought, make you wonder what the eff you were doing, or even have you cringing. That’s life. It is indeed denial to be able to find compassion for the person who was partaking in the situation but not for yourself, which is cruel. Who *hasn’t* been through a difficult time and felt panicky, scared, terrified, and tried to hold onto someone else? You’re only human. Why are you the exception to everyone else and even the person who was a part of the situation?
I’ve done some things that even now run a slither of discomfort through me. Not because I’m still angry, or hurt, or even dwelling but they represent the me that was looking for love in the wrong places, in need of validation, and who had confidence in unavailable people because it gave me some sort of hope about myself. When they invariably didn’t meet my expectations, weren’t there when I was in need etc, it was like scary, hurtful realisations about me.
You can’t drive away someone who was already walking. That’s as if to say he was walking, but he would have looked back or even turned around if you hadn’t been ’emotional’ and ‘human’. You know whose support and care you need? Yours. I’m not saying you don’t need others, but until you give what you expect from others, you will place your confidence and needs in the wrong people.
Thank you so much for your kind words.
I know I need to be more forgiving of myself. But it’s hard to do that it’s a habit very much ingrained in me. But I’m working on it. I guess I have the “if only I worked harder it will all fall into place” syndrome. One of the bigger lessons for me lately was also the realisation that some things in life are out of my control, not in my circle of influence. I can’t do anything about them no matter what I try. I just need to accept and live with them.
Beautiful words, gala and NML (“It is indeed denial to be able to find compassion for the person who was partaking in the situation but not for yourself, which is cruel.” gala – I was also, due to circs, in dire need of steadiness and something to hold onto when the AC came by and kicked me down. I also had trouble with grieving and acknowledging the injury, while also having compassion for him.)
And, yes, that’s what the random life coach guy was getting at – the issue of control and learning not to think of it as a very large sphere, if at all.
I tested it last night when workaholic guy called. Even though he called me, he was still being defensive and flippant, and it was so nice to watch myself say no to the path of thinking that I had to feel bad about that. Instead I was like, ‘look at how scared and inexperienced he is (for his own human reasons)’ and visualised in a moment what the guy had told me – about how people have their own paths and fears and reasons, and they will commit to them regardless. I was then only responsible for my reaction: whether I wanted to engage or not, and how much energy I wanted to give. Because I didn’t, as NML says, tie up my confidence or value in his behaviour – which means it wasn’t primarily ‘treatment’ of me, it was behaviour of his that I could choose to turn into ‘treatment’ or not – it was incredibly easy to be casual about things, and to say in a friendly way what my boundary was, but without dwelling or being attached to his response to that.
I feel much more centred today. Thanks again to all for the advice these past few days when I’ve had a bit of a wobbly. As I read today though, it takes grit, gumption, and common sense to put it into practice.
I was thinking a lot about what really happened lately, now that I can look the truth in the eye.
Considering all the facts it was a clear case of a guy who was after sex, but never cared for me in the first place. This was a hard realization for me, as i held on to the belief that he at least cared a little. Now I know I was fooling myself, since I was going through hard times and it was a sort of a fantasy escape for me, which he sensed and exploited to his purposes and then he discarded me.
I should have known.
When we were dating he was ambiguous that’s why I took it very slowly, since I never knew where I stood. He was full of contradictions and always making sure I wouldn’t understand any sort of affection from him by making weird ambiguous remarks (there was plenty of that) as a sign of his feelings (he later claimed he was only kidding and that I misunderstood). He seemed like he was head over heels in love with me, but wouldn’t admit it to himself or to anyone else. Like he was ashamed of it. That’s why I was careful and didn’t consider him as relationship material. Later, as career stuff started to fall apart, my self-esteem plunged and I was holding onto the illusion of his affection, since it seemed the only good thing left. He used my misery with no remorse and no conscience.
Maybe that’s why I was so hard on myself, too. I saw it all, I was warned by my gut, but I went into the fire anyway…
Hi Everyone
Some of you may remember me from some posts a few months back. I was at breaking point over my on/off emotionally abusive relationship which concerned yourself (Nat) and a few other readers. He hurt me unbelievably in so many ways. I felt so inspired by your words I made it my mission to move on, heal and live my life without him. And for a while I made progress, albeit slow, but I made progress all the same. I got so much stronger and started to laugh and feel happy inside myself again. I could see my future… without him.
And I am ashamed to say, that it did not last. I went out with a friend in our local town a few weeks ago and I saw him for the first time. I tried to ignore him but ended up in the same club and he was there everywhere I turned. The following day he contacted me and I told him it was completely over. A while later he begged me for another chance, saying that he realised what a mistake he had made how he knows if he ever messes up that he has lost me forever. I stupidly took his words for gospel. I stupidly thought that I was strong enough this time, that I could handle it. He was lovely for the first two weeks, absolutely wonderful. Saying and doing all the right things. Talking about the future, making plans, saying that he was 100% committed to me and the relationship. That he was going to continue with his therapy (he has been going for 6 months). He said that something had clicked, he knew now what he wanted. I felt happy, i felt loved and safe.
Wham!!! Slowly in the past week he has been distant. He doesnt want me touching him and has told me to back off. Obviously I started to panic, my gut instict knew this familiar feeling all too well. The more he backed off the closer I tried to get. It was like he was slipping through my fingers. His contact lessened from the every day phone calls and texts to sporadic half hearted texts. I thought I was strong enough to deal with this, but honestly, all the hurt and pain he has caused me over the years are still there deep inside of me. And when I recognise his inconsistent behaviour starting I know deep down what is round the corner. He says that I am being over sensitive and need too much…
Cherry, as someone who’s fallen off the wagon herself, let me tell you that you can turn this thing around. Go NC immediately, accept that you made a mistake and let his crappy behavior further galvanize you into moving on and healing. Like I said, I’ve been there and I wasted a lot of time blaming myself, being ashamed and internalizing someone else’s bs behavior. You have it in you to cut this off and move on to a better future. You CAN do this! Don’t let the fact that you believed someone’s lies convince you that it’s all hopeless – I’ve been there, done that. Like Natalie says, we’re all human. I wanted to believe that my ex-AC was telling the truth and had changed too – does that mean that I’m an idiot? Nope, it just means I wanted very badly, for a myriad of jacked-up reasons, to believe something that I knew deep down wasn’t true. Don’t let this impact further on your self esteem! What’s done is done, but we always have the option of changing what comes next by making better decisions and believing in ourselves. It’s never too late to start doing right by yourself!
Hi Cherry
First, good for you for having made the break originally and enjoying some growth. So you fell off the wagon and resumed contact with this guy – and he’s proven to be the same hurtful person as ever. We’ve all been there, and Nat has written a lot about the patterns of getting back with poor partners, hoping they’ll change, believing they have changed after a couple of months, etc. Now you have the information you need to step away for good, and you can keep coming back here for support as you stay NC. Hugs.
Cherry, dont beat yourself up over going back – you can now move forward knowing *for sure* that he is no good for you (or anyone) and *will not change. ever.*. Hell, if even after therapy and being ‘100% committed’ he still acts like this and after a tiny while – then you can run in the other direction knowing that there is no chance he’ll ever be emotionally avaliable and ready for a fullfilling relationship. So in a good way you dont ever have to wonder ‘what if he changes – he wont, what if he trys to work things out for himself – he can’t… you can just cut your losses now.
I know it hurts like hell, but just think of what you are feeling now and compare it to before this second chance and how you were feeling when you were starting to put yourself back together. I’m sure the latter feels better than how you are feeling now.
I went back too after a long while NC (prob about 6 months – well it felt a long while!) because of a similar situation. After realising it was empty words and gestures it enabled me to move on for good this time. Try and get angry with him for selling you false goods (If you bought a porsche and drove that for a couple of weeks, then looked out of your window to find it had suddenly changed into a 20 year old clapped out morris minor then you’d be mad as hell). I found being angry at him helped me be less angry and upset and let down and depressed at/with myself.
much love xxx
Yeah, Cherry, try somehow to take it as concrete evidence that your first decision to leave him was the right one. You can now get rid of any wistful fantasies about him because you KNOW that he is simply incapable of providing love and consistency to anyone, and certainly not you (which is the main thing). Withdrawal is one of the meanest and surest ways to make someone feel terribly insecure (and sometimes insane). It’s what b*tchy high school girls do to each other, and it doesn’t lose its impact. But you do have that small, but deep, space between his behaviour – that is routine, and embedded (not about you!) and your reaction to his behaviour. This is not about you, and by blaming yourself for going back, you’re creating a false connection. Good luck. Trust that you will get back on that wonderful path you were on much more quickly this time.
“Anything is superficial if you take that one thing and make assumptions about it and correlate it to the rest of the person and assume that because they possess one thing, they possess other qualities, characteristics and values that you believe someone you are attracted to would have.”
Ameenn to that.
That is just what I have been doing.
It’s all about respecting boundaries to me…
…just had a deal breaker happen to me this past Friday night:
One of those guys that would not keep his octopus paws off of me despite him already being informed that I DO NOT “do” casual sex.
He just kept on trying to go further than I’d wanted, then had the nerve to argue about it! Excuse me?! My physical boundaries are not up for being argued over! He claimed he was worried that he would be put into the “friend zone” if he didn’t “seal-the-deal” sooner than later. WHAT?!
Oh yeah – and to him, “making out is just so eighth grade – that’s what a ‘tease’ does.” He was he not the one being so 8th grade?!
Done and DONE. Disrespect me = GET OUTTA HERE!
Perfect example of a Captain Obvious deal breaker?!
OK, gals. So when does a dealbreaker TRULY break the deal? Just went back to my married EUM after nearly three weeks of no contact (from me). So mad at myself and disappointed. Of course, as brilliant Natalie said, the same AC behaviors are back rearing their ugly heads: ignoring texts, physical unavailability, selfishness…so therein lies my question. When will I get it through my head/heart/body that these behaviors are dealbreakers?! How did you reach your breaking point, ladies, and finally find the strength to say “ENOUGH!” I can’t seem to say the words, but the past three weeks have shown me I CAN perform the actions.
@ Blueberry Girl…..If you find out the answer to that question please tell me!! You are not alone…you at least made it 3 weeks no contact I can only make it one day! He breaks me down every time – and we have this karma and sends cards, completely sappy emails and texts!!
I know if I go back it will be the same exact thing by…. probably as early as tomorrow. At least we have clarity and hope we will get away from them…maybe that is the key here – it just might be a matter of time for us! Instead of just looking at the exit signs/exit doors we have to use them!
Just saw this…..and it really hit home with me. If you feel “neglected and unimportant”, you are neglected and unimportant. DEAL BREAKER!
Blueberry,
Te deal breaker is that he is married and unavailable. You will never be a priority for him as he has a wife.
Please try to focus on why you would wish to be in such a an unhealthy relationship where you receive so little.
Married men are a no-win!
Emlaw and Blueberry,
I am sorry, how can you even ask these questions while running back and forth with someone who is married? Please don’t be upset with me but I just don’t understand. Just get away. It’s hard but these douches of men don’t have magic wands Or magic penises.
I have never been with a married man so maybe I am just naive but I’ve had a few try to get with me. It was a total GROSS factor for me. Please enlighten.
blueberry
A woman is involved with a married man. Do men think “wow, this girl must be a real catch to be a married man’s mistress. I better step up and treat her right”. Or do they think “this girl cannot expect very much. I’ll throw her a bone every now and then. It’ll be fine”.
If you wanted a proper fulfilling relationship it’s best not to be with someone who should be having a proper fulfilling relationship with someone else. Either he’s treating her badly, or you badly, or – more likely – both of you badly. He can’t be a good guy, he’s in an impossible situation of his own making.
You’re entirely missing the point. Whether or not he texts you is irrelevant. He’s married.
You have standards. And one of those is not to mess about with someone else’s husband. You lost your way, but you can find it again. Cut him off. You’ve bust your own boundaries. I don’t excuse him, but he’s just taking what you’re offering.
hiya, well there were a number of breaking points, but one thing that made me sit up and forced me to move on was one day looking up and seeing all of my friends settled with great bf’s / gf’s (well most of them, one or two are stuck with AC’s!) who treat them well and they are happy and content. While I was basically for all intents and purposes alone (in a pseudo relationship) I started actually* really* looking hard at other people, and becoming envious of those who could have a bad day, come home to someone who would listen to them, who could excitedly plan holidays together, look for a home to buy together etc etc. And I’d compare this to what I had with my AC and it was nothing like it!! It was more like the kind of relationship a 12 year old would have – one minute he’d be there, next min not – all on his terms.
Every time I missed him I’d just tell myself “if I stay with him this means *I* am *choosing* not to have someone be there for me on bad days, not to ever live with someone, not to have children etc”. Why would I want to do that? Take him out of the picture, and look at what is actually being offered to you (ignore it is by someone you love/lust/think is a soulmate) focus on what is being given – is that all you want????
By staying with a married man (no moral judgement there, i’ve done it) you are *choosing* never to have a good close relationship.
I never thought i’d be able to make the break (mostly because i didn’t really want to when it came down to it, i was betting on future potential – even though nothing had changed in years). It took something pretty damn awful for us to break up, even then it took him not speaking to me for a while to help me make that break. However after the first few months it became easier, and man, I am so so so glad we are not together now. You can do it! You can!!!!! xxx