The mistake that many make when they attempt to insert boundaries into their lives is trying to rule others with boundaries because they think that boundaries serve a purpose of controlling other people’s behaviour. They think that they’re solely or mainly about knowing and handling the things that we don’t like and accept in others. Yes, boundaries are in part about guiding and directing others about what does and doesn’t work for us but, this doesn’t need to take the form of confrontation or big talks, or trying to amend other people’s behaviour.
Boundaries are an expression of our self-esteem. They’re the result of the way in which we conduct ourselves and how we express awareness of our line and our limit.
Good fences make good neighbours.
Putting aside what others are doing, what are we actively doing to conduct our lives with healthy boundaries?
Do we go about the business of living from a place of being conscious, aware, present, and showing up as who we truly are, or are we reacting to what comes along?
One is about having active responses driven by choices, preferences, and ownership of how we want to feel and live, and the other is about bumbling along and reacting to whatever life throws us.
The problem with basing our lives around reacting in the main is that it causes us to drift and in fact stray very far from who we are at the core because reacting is what happens when we’re living unconsciously in a pattern where we slip into default and autopilot mode. There is a fundamental lack of consideration for the bigger picture (for our needs, desires, expectations, feelings, opinions and values) because we consider a very limited amount of information rooted in fear.
Are you assuming what others think/feel or assuming what’s right for them?
You’re reacting not responding. You’re feeling responsible for their moods, problems and feelings so you’re just constantly trying to anticipate or react to what you perceive as being their mood, problems or feelings. This is an example of codependency. You have to stop denying the separateness in order for you to truly love you and own your place in this world.
Boundaries help you to deal with your ‘neighbours’ but they also help you to be a ‘good’ neighbour because you’re coming from a place of care, trust, and respect and are also willing to step up to protect your ‘home’ (read: you) rather than let your neighbour run riot while you either say nothing, hint at the issue, make threats that you don’t follow through on, or hold yourself hostage by curtailing your options. None of these things make for a harmonious relationship because you’re either making it their responsibility to figure out what you truly want, need, expect etc., or you’re trying to manage them with threats, or you’re assigning them authority and prison warden status.
People often think that the fence is just for the people on the other side of the fence – your neighbours – but it’s also to manage your own behaviour and thinking because you are a neighbour too.
Your boundaries are there to maintain healthy personal space and to distinguish you from others because you are an individual entity in your own right. This isn’t a free for all. You must honour the separateness. It is the definition of taking care of your side of the street.
The ‘fence’ isn’t there to ensure that the neighbour agrees with you all of the time or will validate you – the fence has to be there regardless of whether they agree with it or not and regardless of whether further down the line, in spite of getting on well, an issue arises where you’re not on the same page.
We don’t truly get mad at us for having an active response in situations that require us to step up or show up; we carry smouldering, longstanding anger and struggle to move on when we are passive and knew what we needed to be or do in a situation but we ducked out. We get mad because we know what we needed to be or do but hoped that the other person would take care of it all or that they would amend their behaviour and/or the conditions so that we could feel better.
Boundaries exist to point both you and others to what does and doesn’t work for you (and they have their own too). They are part of your internal compass which you need both personally and in interactions, but they’re also there so that should an issue arise, you know your limit. Your limit is your limit and that can only be defined and upheld by you and no other person can define your comfort level or validate or even invalidate your comfort level.
Your boundaries don’t need sign-off.
There will be times when you will feel a bit or even a lot wounded when people won’t be and do as you would like. That’s human nature. The fact that they won’t though doesn’t invalidate the content or the necessity of that boundary, nor does it invalidate your needs, expectations, wishes, feelings, and opinions. They just don’t want to roll your way. Everyone is different. Feeling wounded because people don’t act and think like you do is like being wounded that the world isn’t full of clones [of you].
You aren’t always going to be able to agree with or validate another person’s boundaries but that won’t change that person’s. If you tend to look at things from what you deem as the perspective of others, it’s important to recognise that people’s lives aren’t waiting on your sign-off and nor should yours rely on theirs.
Some people don’t make good neighbours and its at that point that you put whatever boundaries you need in place to limit their impact on you or you move away. If they act up, it doesn’t make you responsible for them. You can acknowledge if the entry point that they’ve had to cross or even bust your boundaries reflects something that you need to tighten up on, but that is for your benefit so that you own your own and let others own theirs.
Your thoughts?
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It really is ok to react as well…but for not 99% of the time.
Good God could this have come at a more perfect time when throughout this weekend I’ve been reflecting on some of the things I let my girl friends get away with?…and the disappointment that I feel at myself for allowing myself to live in a fog where I’m not sure what I’m ok with and not? 🙂 Nat thank you for yet another so…absolutely spot on post…and the details that I’d never thought would be going through someone else’s mind too!!
I only learned about boundaries a few years ago … which is kind of a shame as I’m now 45 … But I learned about them first here, and I’m so grateful. I grew up with shameless boundary-busting parents and family, and learned to take a lot of dodgy behaviour for granted.
My lack of understanding about boundaries also got me into trouble later on, and I had to take drastic measures to rescue myself from bad situations – situations which would not have arisen if I’d had better boundaries in the first place. Not always, but often enough.
Better late than never, I suppose!
Well, this a synchronicity for me. My neighbor actually tried to steal my boundary fence last year (and a strip of land 5 feet wide with it) after the fence burned down in a forest fire. Her insurance company was negligent as well, so she got paid for my fence.
Horrible problems were caused by this act, and it cost me money as well. She of course lied to me continually.
Do not let people steal your fence, even if you have to fight for it and then decide your neighbor is a liar and a thief.
Now I am completely NC with this neighbor and plan to be NC with them from now on.
Not a very nice way to live, but it is better than trying to have a relationship with unethical people.
Just an interesting metaphor for my life right now……..I did not connect this legal problem with my neighbor to my personal relationship ending until you wrote about it!!!.
Yes, my Ex busted all my personal boundaries large and small so this helps me understand why NC for the past year has been so important. And healing. It is the only way to deal with people who do not treat you with care and respect.
Shano
My neighbor is a hoarder who the county was supposed to force to clean up his act as his stuff is a major fire hazard. The previous owner of the house would allow his crap to impinge across the property line and send him a registered letter every few years stating that so hoarder couldn’t “take over” that part of the property by adverse possession. When I bought the place and land, it was being remediated by the EPA and yep, hoarders crap was across theline. We marked the line with spray paint and the workmen asked me what to do. I said “use the dozer to move the stuff to his side of the line and proceed” it got cleaned up pronto and neighbor hasn’t tried that since.
This is a very timely post for me as well. And I co-sign on what Ethelreda said, my first time learning what boundaries are was on BR. Long way to go still.
This reminds me of an argument we had with an exEUM. He met some girl in a cafe (he never specified how exactly he met her but I imagine he chatted her up) and then spoke with her and exchanged contacts. And then they started to work together on one of our projects. Comes out she works in a related field. But he did not know that at the time when he chatted her up. This used to drive me insane. Was I insane to think it’s inappropriate to chat other women in a cafe when you’re in a relationship with someone already? Am I old-fashioned/paranoid to think it’s wrong?
He never told her we were in a relationship. And he did not tell me about how they’ve met until someone else pointed out that sth was odd.
Gals, be my sanity here?
I’ve never had this kind of issue arise before so I don’t know whether it’s my unique boundary that I was unaware of or I was being unreasonable at the time? I want to be a reasonable human being. It’s true that none of my previous boyfriends met girls in cafes and then did not tell me about it until I confronted them. It seems somehow related to my struggle with ambiguity and that particular man’s preference for ambiguity with me and with other women (i.e. not mentioning he has had a partner).
@Why; i can be a bit ‘old-fashioned’ which often means someone that doesnt want ambiguity and tries to keep things simple. I dont know what chatting in cafes involved for the EUM you’re talking about – I am a regular at a cafe and there are one or two guys that I regularly exchange 3-4 minutes chat with every time. I wouldn’t behave any differently if I was in a relationship. People seeing me might think I am really good friends with this one guy, I dont even know his name, and we talk about his new job every time (he’s younger and I have a similar job). Also he was the one started talking to me and I often have to manage boundaries since he sometimes asks me out to dinner – I think he’s networking so its not a date but I dont have the time so I’m always deflecting. Still, I like seeing him – earlier I would be a bit formal because i didn’t want to be forced to chat every time – but now we’re cafe buddies.
Is he going to cafes only to chat with women? Thats a problem then. Dont second guess yourself. Him chatting is not the question; its everything else about it including the fact that he shared a project. Also, if someone’s actions drive you crazy with questioning yourself then they’re not right for you because they’re living their lives in ways that dont fit yours.
So its not the cafes; if you have a five minute chat in a cafe you dont need to tell your partner every little thing about your life. If that 5 min chat becomes a long running project then yes you probably should. And both partners need to trust that they know the difference.
The problem with EU is that it makes you be emotionally dishonest too – its not jealousy that is getting you, its ambiguity, its hooking you and hooking you. You might end up telling him he can’t chat with people in cafes or that he has to tell you if he does that — and that is no way to run a healthy relationship in my opinion. I wouldn’t be happy if a guy told me that. And I dont think one has to declare relationship status unless there is a moment where not telling is giving the wrong impression; no need to tell random cafe stranger that you chatted with for 5 mins. The thing is that his everyday habits make you insecure – this person cannot then make you happy.
Also, I think trust is really important and also trusting that the other person is a class act and knows how to behave. You cannot imagine the degree of social situations out there and you can’t set rules for your partner for each situation; 5 min chat with a stranger that you never see again? 5 min chat with a cafe buddy every day? in which situation do you need to say something about your relationship? one hour chat with a stranger? etc etc. You cannot second guess – we need to spend the time understanding how they deal with various situations and then whether it works for us. Ex-EUM did not deal with social situations the way that I would – starting with me! The relationship they have with us is the first one we should analyze before thinking about the girl in the cafe.
And see what Nat says; your boundaries dont need a sign off 🙂
@Suki, Noquay
Thank you so much for your comments. I’ve tried to post an elaborate reply to my struggling with boundaries (vs trying to control the other person) but no matter how I try to re-edit it, the website gives me a reply I’ve been banned so I will just thank you 🙂
Suki, your comment about everyday habits is a spot on. I have not thought about it before.
My take is that he met her at work but didn’t want to admit that, so he made up the stuff about the cafe. Or, he met her online and arranged to meet her at a cafe.
I am like Suki; I don’t get the ‘met her in a cafe’ thing at all.
Gosh, I am so suspicious. But I have to say, it’s saved me a few times.
@Ethelreda,
Yes, I’ve become very suspicious too 🙂 But lately I think that maybe it’s actually not suspicious but just attentive to my intuition (wired directly to boundaries). Often times my intuition told me that something was wrong. Even when no one was lying or engaging in some outright outrageous anything. But in the end, it was always right. I am not a New Age person myself but I think often times our intuition picks up traits that will show themselves in the future and saves us time (if we listen to it). I trying to trust my judgement but it so damn hard!
@Why, I think it all depends on your relationship. My first boyfriend had loads of female friends and I never thought a thing about it. I didn’t care if he met them in cafes, in alleyways, or whatever. I trusted him. (That trust turned out to be unfounded when it transpired he was cheating on me with men, but …) My second relationship, I did not trust him, with good reason. He cheated on me twice early on, and our relationship was “ambiguous” from the beginning. By the end of it, whether he met a girl just as friends or something else, I was so confused and paranoid that I didn’t know up from down and accused him of everything. I didn’t trust him, and he didn’t make me feel safe. If he had, I wouldn’t have cared about working with some girl he met in a cafe.
Why
There’s no problem just talking to someone of the opposite sex. He may have known her professionally but getting into projects via random meetings in a cafe, even with someone in your field – doesn’t happen unless the person is something like a roofer/painter/house fixer upper and thats what you needed. That and keeping your rship secret are huge red flags if he worked with this person over time, not just chatted once. Hiding a partner always means the dude is up to no good or really wants to be.
Great timing for this one… Since I am new to BR, I am just now understanding the concept of boundaries. I get the general idea, and when I was divorced I unconsciously made commitments to myself that I would not settle for anything less than a good communicator, honesty, and loyalty. However, how to apply them seems to be the trick. I have read many comments talking about some basic boundaries, and I believe mine are not too demanding. Typical stuff; care, trust, honesty, commitment (at least a willingness to progress a relationship so that we can really unfold), spending time, open communication, obviously no cheating, etc. The last is an easy one, but the others are more subjective. When and how do you confront on the violation of a boundary?
I recently met a woman that didn’t communicate well and she were so busy she couldn’t/wouldn’t spend the time I wanted to get to know each other. Those were two items that I really felt strongly about. Needless to say, I confronted her about this and she said she wasn’t able to do the things I needed because of her own issues. I told her we should break until such time she decided that she was ready to be “present”. I have posted before that I felt this may have been too soon, but I felt strongly about my needs not being met, “crumbs”. Again, difficulty in deciding “how” and “when” to apply boundaries. Seems tricky, but probably rather simple!
‘Difficulty on deciding “how” and “when” to apply boundaries’ – I am the same. Because in the past I have been quick to react and I have worked hard to be less anxious and more mindful I often say to myself to take a moment and really consider that I’m not being overly sensitive or I’ve not misunderstood the situation, and then the AC will do something lovely which makes me think ‘oh I was just being silly’. We’re not talking major boundary busters, just some small things that when I look back I think I coujd have been more assertive with. Basically because I’m scared to assert myself as it will result in self blame if the outcome is different to what I hoped. Classic low self esteem. Thanks to baggage reclaim I’m slowly improving, very slowly but small steps in the right direction
One of the issues for those of us previously allergic to putting up boundaries (fences) is in the deconstruction of the methods we used in order to reinforce behaviours to stop us from enforcing boundaries – one of the techniques I used to sabotage my boundary making – was to beat myself up once putting a boundary in place (as well as when I didn’t!) – a lose/lose situation every time – for being too harsh/too soft with people, jumping to conclusions too soon/or not soon enough, wrong/or right but not listening to my instincts on them and the situation etc… black and white thinking that expected me to be always perfect in order to ever succeed.
Apart from sabotaging relationships by cherry picking information I received to feed the illusion I wanted about the person (and myself), I would also put boundaries in far too late meaning I was met often with great indignation, extreme and fixed resistance and conflict – verbal and/or physical etc… due to their shock and reaction to their entrenched or formed illusion about myself that I wasn’t ever going to put a boundary in – effectively claiming my space as their own and their right to do with as they so wished using the fence analogy because that’s always been so – making it a much scarier prospect for me putting ANY boundary in place in the future or reaffirming the boundary I was setting – making me more resistant to doing so – than facing the consequences of not putting any boundary in at all where I perceived I received less face to face conflict/problems/trouble.
Yoyo and Confused – Its good to ask questions about boundaries but I don’t know the perfect answer to your ‘ when? and how?’ question because facing dealing with boundaries is an ongoing process for me currently and is subjective ie a personal choice – which is kind of the point – it is where YOU define yourself – where you listen to yourself fully and make it a reality.
I do know that finding out more about myself and writing a daily journal – no one is ever allowed to see – has helped me greatly, especially in those moments where I am trying to ignore myself, con myself, confuse myself with conflicting information or have too many boundaries to know where to focus – and I now take this activity as seriously in my day as eating – and I know when I haven’t done it! – I do x3 A4 pages a day, every day minimum – more on difficult days or with difficult problems.
The shear scale of boundary setting I was suddenly aware I needed with my eyes opening and being hypersensitive – compared to the none I was used to – felt really wrong and impossible to handle on a practical level – like fencing a mount Everest – so prioritizing has become an issue/ combined with learning not to beat myself up when I don’t achieve an important boundary that has just blown up in my face.
1) Know what your needs and true feelings are daily
2) Work out where you need to set YOUR boundaries to achieve what you need
3) Prioritize them
4) Don’t expect that this means you are home free – they can still say no way or disagree – know what you will do if they do before hand – write it down and stick to it. Make your words count for real.
5) Compassion for yourself when you don’t follow through and it blows up in your face or when you do and it blows up in your face – I ask myself how I would react if a friend came to me with a similar problem? What would I see?
6) Recognize when you have set boundaries and it has protected you – regardless of whether it has brought you what you really wanted/expected/hoped for ie a respectful and loving partner for your life – YOU are the loving respectful partner to yourself first and foremost and if you are doing that – you are doing really well regardless of whether they support your boundary or not.
You may also both like to look at trauma bonding – that is what can happen to some people, when you have been through trauma of either emotional, physical, sexual experiences and become bonded to certain thinking/reactions/behaviour sub consciously without you realizing, that actually sets up the whole pattern once again over and over again but just with different people/circumstances but the same result – even though you really don’t want to consciously.
oh last thing – never over explain boundaries – the whys – it is a form of sabotage by yourself and can be easily used by them to sabotage your boundary – use:-
‘When you do x…………………………………… it makes me feel y………………………………. and the consequences are z……..’
Simple. Then follow through – no matter what excuse is suddenly coming up in your head or sudden fantasy contrary information.
another thing…Expresso says it all in this line in a post below I repeat it from there (many thanks expresso I hope you don’t mind) and it applies to the setting and maintaining of our boundaries:-
‘This was my trap…I didn’t think my own feelings were worthy enough to be valid in themselves.’
I have to add my voice to the chorus of those who have commented on the timing of this post !
I just gave my regrets to a group of friends who have invited me to a barbecue this evening.
Normally, I would welcome the opportunity to sit and socialize with these wise, strong women.
However, I’ve been dealing with a little dog who has developed some health issues . . . and I’ve lost two nights sleep.
It’s also incredibly HOT here today. The temperature is forecast to reach 40 degrees Celsius this afternoon with no breeze and high humidity.
I tend to lose my appetite in weather like this.
When I “checked in” with myself this morning regarding this evening’s planned function, I realized that I was feeling conflicted.
On the one hand, I didn’t want to let my friends down . . . but if I had elected to attend based upon that rationale, I would have been paying no attention to MY needs today.
Which are for solitude . . . mindfulness . . . and silence.
I had JUST made the phone call to give my regrets when I read this post.
Today, Catherine will be taking care of Catherine ( and her little dog ).
There was a time when I’d have been tied up in knots with worry over what my friends would think of me for opting out.
Never again . . .
It’s taken some time . . . and an abundance of inner “work” . . . to realize that I have a sacred right to honour my needs now.
And that goes hand-in-hand with letting go of concerns about other people’s opinions, too.
It’s an easy boundary to enforce !
@Catherine, I know exactly what you are saying! We dont always do what is right for us even when its technically really a minor thing. And that is partly a boundary with ourselves first of all because its not like your friends are insisting or giving you grief for not coming (I hope).
I made a boundary with my horrible older sister last year–I wanted a month or two break from contact with her. She got furious and made it six months. That was 13 months ago. Turns out my life is more peaceful with that seahag out of it. I was hoping she’d mellow into a sweet old lady, but she’s almost 69 and meaner than ever. I have no plans to hang out with any old bats as I age. That six months she demanded was the best gift she could have given me. Boundaries separate the trash from
the recyclables.
LOVE your last sentence, Karen . . . !
And I know exactly what you mean by that sense of peace, too.
In my case, I have gone NC on my two younger siblings. It has been close to four years now.
They were essentially my mother’s “flying monkeys” . . . and even though the matriarch is no longer able to wreak her particular brand of havoc directly, she trained them well before she died.
I have never felt so free and authentically “Catherine”.
It was a challenge to tune into my soulful voice while surrounded by a family of foghorns !
There happens to be a great parallel article on this same theme of boundaries right now at Getting Past Your Breakup:
Wiser,
Thank you for sharing that article. It was good. I’ve been reading on here but not commenting much as I’ve been practicing my BR skills. My BR skills we’re apparently in need of a tune up and my fence is making better neighbors because they can’t run around all over me. I had some challenges recently but they are tests for me to use things I’ve learned.
Wiser – thank you for sharing this. The way she lays it out with examples and “talking back” to the bullshit we tell ourselves (and let them tell us) is, like NML’s post, a important breath of fresh air. Thanks!
Wiser,
This article was on target. Thank you for sharing!!!! I love BR, and the extra suppirt of ya’ll (yup, Im southern) and your comments. I screwed up recently by reading an email from the ex Bullsh-ter, google wont block emails :(, they want you to have self control!!!! But I could still see his bulls*it on the subject line!!!. I was furious , it was him baiting me in his typical double meaning way. You know where something said looks normal if others read it but has meaning as in a little “fuc* you” in there. Annnnny way, the ruminating kicked in and i hate that. I have to spend my time monitoring thoughts like a gustapo. But that article you posted was what i needed. THANK YOU
Yeah, BR has really been the catalyst for my changes, or at the very least, learning what I need to change.I too did not know what boundries were. Its so true, they are acted upon by people with good self esteem. It took a little while for me to realize the correlation. Just having them builds self esteem. Because for me, lots of help sites give you examples of low self esteem, or how things hurt it but it was difficult for me to understand what to do to build it back up . Telling me to build self through “thinking positive”, or watching out for dumbdumb losers clearly wasnt helping. What an awaking. Sorry for typos, my cell phone freezes when i type here.
Wiser I found the language and overall tone abusive in the article you posted a link to – being labeled things such as ‘stupid’!!! for allowing repeated boundary violations etc… I don’t feel are helpful to my self esteem for a coping mechanism I learned as a child while being abused – with no help to survive any better or learn any other until now.
If that is the definition of stupid – ie to not know what you didn’t know – then everyone would be guilty of being stupid. The article was not my cup of tea though I appreciate your effort to make a link to other sources that may be useful.
She’s definitely no-nonsense and not everybody’s style. Very much a “tough love” approach. And sometimes people need a loving but tough bonk on the head with a 2 x 4 before they wake up and get the message.
Really?
I’m not so sure. I am very wary myself but you are right we are all different and I recognise it may be of help to others different to me. I just didn’t find it my cup of tea, sorry.
Boundary issues were a big issue in my long-term, now defunct marriage. My ex seemed to have no boundaries at all, in any situation, and he ignored or diminished mine. It hurt me a lot and made me feel alone and disrespected. I lost of a lot of self-esteem over the years but one of the worst things was becoming more confused about what I had a right to assert and how I should act when this was ignored. I can see that I do tend to still justify shady behaviour from some people as I did with my ex. It was/is all based on my inability to honour and respect myself and to believe that my discomfort is a good signal when something is not right. And that I shouldn’t override it.
I think I do a lot of self-monitoring now and it is a bit tedious sometimes but is a necessary step to being more aware and having people in my life who value me.
I would say that if you are feeling uncomfortable about a man chatting people up or inviting somebody on a project then you should respect your feeling and not continually second guess yourself. This was my trap…I didn’t think my own feelings were worthy enough to be valid in themselves.
I also liked the post about deciding to take a pass on activities with friends sometimes. This has been a bad habit of mine…I had family who mean a lot to me in town last week and I spent a lot of good quality time with them. There was another excursion I would have gone on in the past but when I considered it now I realized it wasn’t something I wanted to do. It worked out just fine. I had an afternoon of productive work and nobody cared.
Espresso
I often beg off of social events because a. I am overwhelmed with stuff to do and b. It’s a locals crowd and highly unlikely I am going to meet anyone new. I am really rationing my time; doing those things that are consistent with long term goals (upgrading my property, meeting new folk from outside, increasing my fitness level). I think we have frittered away too much precious time on folk that don’t deserve it, throwing away our own goals in the process. Like you, my self esteem was hammered big time and has been pretty hammered this summer by weird encounters with unavailables but it’s still there, just bruised and a tad bloodied. No more. Also no more not listening to my gut or ignoring red flags. The whole chatting up issue mentioned previously mentioned is important not for the talking/working with other chix, but how the gut has registered the situation. My time, my company, and yours, has value. Just went on a date with (theoretically) a good match; reasonably in area, active. He was late, looks nowhere as good as his pics, very socially awkward, and insisted on me paying half the tab. Can afford $2k carbon bike rims but not a date? Really? I could well afford to pay the whole tab but that wasnt the point. No gentlemanly traits whatsoever and no manners. He’s older than I and I felt as though I was the elder in the situation. On to guy #2, a 15 year older gent from the North, Noquay country. We’ve been able to talk old time Socialism, he’s impressed with my activity/work ethic, we both live apart from mainstream culture. He’s flying out here for 5 days and I have agreed to pay his rental car and hotel bill. Agreed by mutual consent. Thus far seems a gentleman and responsible, non selfish but meeting folk is always a risk.
You surprise me that you’re paying rental and hotel, Noquay. It seems important to you that your potential partner has made well of his life on his own and not need any financial help from you, but you’re paying….? Somewhere in your head you’ve decided that was equitable and fair, maybe because he’s paying for the flight…?….but it seems inconsistent with what you say you demand in a partner. How do you know he’s isn’t using frequent flier miles or someone else’s dime?
Hope it works out and that you have a very enjoyable time.
Folks
He is paying for the flight and nope, frequent flier miles aren’t involved. He will also have a four hour drive to/from the airport there and a two hour drive to/from the airport here so yeah, its equitable. He did not ask me to do this, I offered. I am not comfortable having a stranger in my home and hes staying at the local hostel where a lot of the athletes that visit here stay and it’s run by friends. I have ties in the area he lives in and thus far he checks out OK. To put it into perspective, any date I go on even in this state, or a nearby state is going to cost me a minimum of $150 between a hotel overnight for myself and gas and thus far, none of the dudes worked out. The nearest metro area with higher end men is a 200 mile round trip drive, some of it in hellacious traffic. I can’t fly there due to time constraints, no local hotels, and I’d have to pay someone another $100 plus to tend my farm and indoor plants/critters. Just met another more local dude and that put me $130 in the hole with hotel and half the meal and we were in no way a match. Red flag city. Shoulda bought groceries instead. I do not like to drive distances after dark and never drive at all after even one glass of wine. Sounds extravagant but these were the only two times Ive met someone the entire damned year. Yep, it would be nice not to have to break the bank to date like normal women do (guys that actually live near them) but here that’s just not possible if I want anything resembling quality and compatibility. Welcome to Noquay world. Now you see why I only even try to date during the summer months and why stuff like the at work ACs antics or hotrunnerdudes hidden gf are sooo damaging: getting out there again is incredibly expensive and time consuming no matter what one does. Several friends know about this and will have my back. If nothing else, I will have 5 days of being able to converse about the issues that matter to both he and I and at least thus far will probably be treated with both high regard and respect which hasn’t happened much in my 8 years here.
Sounds extreme, Noquay. Couldn’t you guys Skype? Or use Twitter and Periscope? Not trying to talk over anyone’s head if these technologies aren’t familiar, but they allow real-time visible chats, like in the Jetsons cartoon. And Twitter does allow private chats, so it could just be the two of you on Periscope. Periscope is one-way visibility I think, but you could take turns. He signs in to Periscope, and you see him and talk to him via Twitter, realtime. Next time, you sign in to Periscope and he could see you and send you tweets. It could be fun. Skype is two-way…we’ve probably all seen Skype in use because they do it on TV a lot. You could set up your place like you’re in a restaurant, you two could cook meals and eat together. You could see his place, he could see yours. You’d sit on your sofa, he’d sit on his. All through the use of your computer and/or smartphone. For Free. And move on to a real meet-and-great as things develop from there.
Not judging. Just thinking of ways to watch your wallet.
We do Skype
Erm…is that guy who you’re paying for his rental car and hotel bill more or less a stranger – like from an online dating site? That will cost hundreds!? I don’t really know what to say apart from I’d never do that for someone I hardly know (if that’s the case) regardless of how nice he/she seems. Be careful.
Wait, you are paying his hotel bill? Why?
Noquay,
Paying for his rental car and his hotel?!?
What are you doing?
What is he getting? A paid vacation? Come, come now. You aren’t that desperate.
You don’t actually know this man even though he sounds exactly like the kind of guy that you are looking for, and like everyone else it’s hard to believe that you are paying his hotel and car rental bills for 5 days. I also realise that it’s hard for you to just swan off somewhere because of finding someone to care for your critters when you aren’t there.
If I decided to fly interstate to meet someone from a dating site, I would make sure I paid my own way for everything or I wouldn’t be going. Sharing expenses is something you do with a person when you know them, not a total stranger you have never met. Why is this guy getting a free pass on his expenses from you?
Just be careful.
Wait what!!! You have agreed to pay his hotel bill and hire car and you think he seems like a gentleman and non-selfish???
Errm no. No self-respecting gentleman would ever agree or expect for a lady to pay his way. This behavior from him would be a definite red flag for me.
I’m sure you’re not, but agreeing to pay his way comes across as a bit desperate to me and probably will to him too, leading him to think he can get away with not treating you the way you deserve to be treated.
As others have said – be careful!
I understand the want to meet with someone who finally sounds like they might be worth your time, Noquay. After going through so many boring/awful/creepy and no-date dates, I know how you feel.
What bothers me personally is not that you are paying for his hotel but that HE HAS AGREED to that. What bothers me is that it seems to say something about him and his logic and boundaries too.
Noquay, in addition to the other comments, I’d add that you’re setting a precedent here about the future: if you hit it off, will you be paying for his hotel and car every time he comes to visit? What about if you go visit him? Will you be splitting it similarly then?
If this becomes a long distance relationship, you’ll need to figure out how to negotiate these questions soon. I encourage you to be mindful of the tone/expectations you’re setting by picking up the tab for hotel/car on the first meetup.
No, this will not be setting a precedent. We do Skype and email or talk daily, often multiple times. I have made it clear that for right now, paying off dad bills is top priority. He did offer to fly me out there and he would be doing the driving, four hours each way; I don’t drive city. Not only do I not have the time to do so right now, that scenario, being in a car for hours with someone, who, despite Skype, may well be creepy and being there in his home, in an isolated town, is too much risk for me. In this case, if I don’t like him, he’s not in my home yet has a roof over his head and his own transport out. Long term, and this is getting waaaay ahead, he is in much the same boat as I except he has family. He lives in a small place where he has little in common with his more conservative townspeople though his family has been there for generations. He is willing to relocate to be with someone who shares values so long as it’s rural so he can be outdoors. He at least says he is looking for marriage/long term. He understands I cannot really quit and go anywhere at present and that I already have a retirement farm paid for, in an area he is familiar with. Contrast that with the guys in the nearest metro areas who often wont date 30 miles outside their town and most are looking for casual (read f@#$ buddies). If I read the words “tantric sex partner” one more time, Im gonna scream loud enough that even Nat will hear me in merry olde England. First things first though. Maybe I am taking a huge, expensive risk but it’s still better than sitting at home meeting no one, dreading the start of the school year when the social door slams shut (on the fingers of both hands and hits you in the head besides) for 9 long months. This year it’s gonna be even worse. I will have to work with the at work ACs students a lot more due to a colleague needing surgery then retiring. The position will not be replaced. So I loose the program I am fighting hard to keep alive so I can get folk through a class requirement they have no interest in. I also get to hear about his upcoming wedding to Latest Conquest. I can have some degree of NC with him but I cannot avoid every colleague and mutual acquaintance that chooses to blab on about this. Great fun. The summer didn’t go well at all and I am facing a s@#$storm in two weeks. Perhaps under such a situation it has been way cool to be able to talk to someone, share your values, who seems at least to respect and honor me. He even emailed to me his concern about my being alone cutting wood in the heat today. Yep, it could just be so much noise but no one here ever even gave the impression of caring that much. I may be making a huge mistake but nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Hi Noquay,
I really hope this works for you. Have fun! You have conveyed how tough it is to meet someone of substance in your area. I cant even imagine having to be in a work environment and hear about that AC. That has to be tough. Enjoy yourself before the school year starts.
I hope you will be busy this winter enjoying this new guys company based on the connection you make this summer.
Noquay,
My response to you yesterday disappeared before I could post. I hope for you that all goes well. Although I don’t live in an isolated area, I may as well! I do agree with others that it would have been a positive gesture for him to pay his own way. BUT, what you’re doing shows you ‘have skin in the game’ and it sounds like real potential. May you enjoy your time together!
Noquay, I hope you have fun and get some new experiences (related or not related to the man you’re going to be seeing). I now understand your point completely. Thank you for sharing your struggles.
Er Noquay – I’m worried having read your description but if you aren’t then there is no problem.
Good luck to you – I hope this brings you what you are looking for and he is a genuinely wonderful romantic prospect for you.
Oona
Yep, I have concerns but I have even greater concerns about sitting at home alone, doing nothing, and just accepting an unacceptable status quo. At least I am trying to make things better.
noquay; i think based on what you said – do what you feel is right, and take care of your heart. have fun, enjoy his visit. Check in with your feelings. Just know your boundaries and when you’re in too deep or if theres no there there. As long as it is still in reality, then its ok.
I don’t know what the answer is for you Noquay – I am an educated person with a couple of degrees, in an isolated Conservative rural community I don’t connect to, on a farm, miles from the nearest civilisation, in a seasonal tourist spot, not very well off but hard working and alone without family around, friends or encouragement etc… a bit like your current situation and I get the problems you point out and I am looking to your experiences with genuine interest/open mind and hope it is really good for you/maybe it would be for me?
I don’t think there is a right and a wrong way – but there is a right and a wrong way for ourselves and its working that out that can feel deceptive.
I am attempting to accept being alone and put in place measures to make my life equally joyful and fulfilling in different ways to having a romantic relationship/family of my own. This is not easy and my motivation for myself to actively connect with others, is patchy and can go like the weather. I have realised, I’ve lost faith in my ability to find a real romantic relationship for myself and don’t think I have ever had faith for it in reality and that I have never been fully happy for real in past romantic relationships. My surprise revelation is, that actually the happiest I have been in my life – is mostly alone or alone with strangers or single with the odd real friend.
My dream is to be free of feeling bad being alone and isolated and unconnected – and I do feel genuinely free when I am not reliant on others and do more things chasing me fully on my instinct. You do have to go after your ‘dreams’ in order to get them. Its keeping going after them I find difficult and not sabotaging or falling at some hurdle along the way.
Noquay I don’t need to know the answer to the following but are there any measures you can take, to set the concerns you are personally facing, to rest? especially ones concerning the man coming to visit imminently – before he visits or for a possible next visit?
Noquay
I hope this guy works out for you. You really deserve someone good in your life after all the crap.
All the best and plenty of good karma going out to you.
After reducing contact for several months, I’ve been 100% No Contact from my EUM now for a whole month. I want to offer some encouragement for anyone struggling with it. It’s such a kind thing to do for yourself. It’s hard, it’s painful… at first. I did the “step down” method of reducing contact over time, an attempt at friendship (which failed). Once NC sets in, it does get easier. And it allows the good stuff in when you’re not focused on him or worried what he’s doing or thinking.
Today, I was on Facebook and saw something that made me laugh. The EUM I broke up with was very funny (as in, gets paid to be so) and a joke of his popped into my head. We both write comedy and perform locally. I smiled for a moment and remembered his humor – and for a second, I kinda missed him. And then, my own voice spoke up in my brain immediately and said, “Wait a minute. *YOU’RE* funny. You have humor in your life. You have lots of funny friends. You’re doing very well without him around – in fact, better than you were because you’re focused on you now.”
Today, I was accepted to a stand up comedy mentoring program that is difficult to get into. I was pleased at how quickly my own voice spoke up on my own behalf today – I reminded myself so fast: that humor you admire so much isn’t outside you… it’s within you.
No Contact gives us the clarity to get the focus away from them and back to us. Everything you think these assholes have – you’ve already got it. Don’t let them (or you) tell you otherwise. NC makes it possible to get there. Stay strong! xoxo
Michelle this is so true thank you – the reminder that what you admire you already have in yourself – I often forget this/choose not to see it or feel that it is in fact what I am lacking – which is in a way true only when I choose not to see and achieve my own true potential in favour of living my life through others and sacrificing myself. Good on you for refocusing on yourself and I hope you get lots of success with your mentoring.
Congrats to you, Michelle!
Thanks Oona! I think this also ties into a dynamic where I was subtly expected to play “second fiddle” to his work, prioritize supporting his projects, attending his shows, etc. I think part of his EU was getting me to stop focusing on my stuff and be a “groupie” to his stuff. Feeling entitled to my “assistance” for his benefit rather than supporting my goals and dreams. Being new to comedy, it would have been easy to do – to “do comedy” through him, settle for being “his girlfriend who dabbles in comedy” rather than pursue my own goals as a performer in her own right.
Since the break up, it’s been motivating and satisfying to experience my own success in the comedy community here – in six months, I have surpassed his accomplishments (he’s been at it for 5 years). Had I stayed with him, I very likely would have continued to devote some of my energies/attention to supporting his goals (and it would have helped me feel closer to him, so I probably would have done it). Supporting goals and dreams… this is what partners do – but not at their own expense… and, in this case, it would have certainly been at my expense.
Seeing how quickly the success came as soon as I refocused on myself… it tells me everything about what that relationship had in store for me: wasted time, stolen energy – but it would have been time and energy that I willingly gave up. The reversal doesn’t happen overnight but it DOES happen and the “proof” isn’t necessarily in the form of “an emotionally available relationship with a man.” Right now, it looks like “local performer kicking major ass in the scene after she dumped that loser whats-his-name…” 🙂
This is so encouraging to me Michelle – Natalie is so right where she says (I think it was in the last post) if they are behaving badly and/or YOU ARE LOSING YOURSELF – this is a red flag problem in your relationship.
I was so fixed at looking at what they were doing – heroizing them into God like status in my head from their apparent successes – which led to sacrificing myself while supporting them (read co-depending) – that I didn’t focus on totally losing focus on myself and as soon as I refocused back to myself – it is amazing the difference and what has opened up in my world also.
Best wishes…
Everyone, this is an incredible article written about No Contact, from a male view – defending why we owe these EUs *nothing* and our right to boot jerks from our lives entirely:
http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2014/05/cutoff-culture-and-the-myth-of-closure/
FANTASTIC and highly recommended if you’re struggling with feeling bad about going No Contact.
I liked the article because it shows how everyone sees things from THEIR OWN point of view. How many times have BR women written how much easier it is for men to move on. Yet, this man, who obviously does not want to accept the end of his relationship, says it so much easier for women to move on after a breakup.
And this man sounds like he is old enough to recognize “Let’s be friends” is code for “I don’t want to hurt your feelings but I really have no desire to see you again.”
Bottom line – no one wants to be dumped by someone they’re still crazy for. And sometimes they’re not even that into you, but they just don’t want to be dumped, period!
Michelle
LOVED that article. the writer really explained the”dumpers” perspective well. Certainly, the AC and a few others over the years were never going to give closure; they had no ability to do so because that would’ve involved admitting their behavior (hidden gfs) was wrong. Not gonna happen. It never fails to amaze me that someone who exhibits such behavior still thinks they deserve your regard and attention. When the cause is obvious, it should be closure in itself. I’ve certainly been guilty of “ghosting” myself though I would rather give a kind message that “we’re not a match”. Ghosting is the only option when the other party has serious problems or their views are way out of line vs yours, such as revealing they’re racist. My “ghostees” were both very obsessive, needy, and became stalkers. Explaining why their behavior wasn’t OK woulda been a complete waste of time and may’ve put me in physical danger. I myself was ghosted on in a strange way; father of an ex student expressed interest, stopped when he saw me to chat, asked me out, and now very purposefully avoids me. Yep, it felt weird, hurtful, made me wonder if I’d said something horribly wrong though we agree on many things. However, I am owed no explanation and honor his apparent wish of no contact. Saw his truck yesterday on a run but kept going. Just more validation of my policy to avoid attachments with folk that I would have to see if things go south. It’s not about us.
Hi ladies! Just read and loved this article so I thought I would post to say hi. I hope you are all doing well! In the last few months, I have really cleaned up my act and my life and built some strong fences for myself at work. For those who we’re following my story before, I had a really hard time letting go of a married man I was seeing after he told me he and his wife were having a baby. But I am happy to say that time, space, a lot of self-work and no contact have really helped me to heal and overcome this situation!
I think they had their baby last week, but I don’t even care!! Seriously. I’ve spent a lot of time reflecting on what happened, my role in it and how I need to change. And also his role in it and how terribly he treated everyone and his insane ego. I am proud to say I am truly over this guy!!
Anyways, since I last posted, I kept looking around for another position, but then was offered a promotion at my current workplace: my dream job! I met a great guy whom I’m dating an while there’s no big sparks like with mm, there’s also no drama and a lot of fun. I’ve also been working on building my social life and my big goal next is to take a trip to Europe, so I’m saving up for hopefully next year.
Build fences ladies! It is so worth it for yourself more than anything.
@Leanne, wow Leanne, that is inspiring what you have achieved in these short months! You’ve reached meh with this guy, you’ve found someone non-dramatic to be with and are taking it easy, you are moving toward long term goals of having a full life like travel, and things are exciting at work! And you have created all this. Although there was tough love on BR, where we always challenge each other to take responsibility, you can also take responsibility in a good way for all that you’ve created in your life… It didn’t just happen, you created all these good things…
the fact that the guy you’re seeing is fun with no major sparks also says that its healthier. ‘Sparks’ and connection can be a term for no boundaries I think, and this sounds like you are taking it easy. And he’s ‘great’ + ‘fun’ so that to me means ‘sparks’ – its just not the crazy drama sparks that we are used to but the good kind of sparks, more like a nice steady glow than flash in the pan sparks. Wow!! Happy to see your comment that you are feeling confident in your life, and in being who you are. Yayyy for Leanne!
Hi, Leanne. So good to hear you’re doing well! Congrats on your new position.
Great, great, great, great, great!………. Well done Leanne Go for it!!! Really really pleased for you. You read so much calmer and happier now!
You’re awesome!!!
Really great to hear all the positive stories ladies. I never realised the extent if my lack of boundaries & how it was making my life so much more complicated & stressful than it needed to be!! BR really has been a shining light in my road forwarded with love, work and family, the principles can be applied to all facets of life. Until I started reading BR two years ago I was still making excuses for other people and for myself.
Noquay – I admire your efforts at due diligence and I hope that you meet someone you have a genuine connection with. I’m grateful for a the helpful advice from all the community here at BR, it’s amazing to feel at peace (relatively) within yourself. It just feels like there is so much more time in the day without people stealing your time with all their drama and boundary breaking.
Great point, Oona!
–> “never over explain boundaries – the whys – it is a form of sabotage by yourself and can be easily used by them to sabotage your boundary – use:-
‘When you do x…………………………………… it makes me feel y………………………………. and the consequences are z……..’
Simple. Then follow through – no matter what excuse is suddenly coming up in your head or sudden fantasy contrary information.
For the longest time I thought that my interacting with people a certain way would change their behavior toward me. Nope. The only thing that has changed since I changed is me. A lot of people disappeared when I got better about being me.
When I started to get healthy I was called selfish and certain people said how worried about me they were and how awful I was. Some people don’t want you to get better because of their own insecurities. I remember how I didn’t want my ex to overcome his illness because to me that meant he’d be able to travel and would leave or cheat on me. (He left & cheated on me anyway.)
Anyhow it is okay to have boundaries. Some people will hate you for it but man the ones that stick around are true gold and the people that leave just free up space for the good.
I read the above link to the criticism of the man who was on the receiving end of no contact. The man complaining of being dumped was pretty ridiculous but so was the author in some ways.
Do we or our partners owe each other an explanation as to why we want to breakup? Um, yes, definitely by all means unless there is a safety issue involved. But basic proper form…I’d say yes. Do we owe them sex and companionship? Er,…without a doubt no. The reason I broke up with my ex: He wasn’t responsible enough, drank too much, disappeared, and I didn’t trust him. After engaging with him for a couple of months on the premise that all was well, yes, I absolutely owed it to him why I was leaving. Did I give him any inclination as to why I really left? Nope. But had I been a forthright person, I wouldn’t have been with him in the first place. Did I ruin his life? Not even close (he’s way since moved on & good for him). Had I caught him in bed with an ex and then walked out would I still owe an explanation?? Of course not!! It’s about not pretending things are okay and up and leaving. It’s about healthy honest communication and expression and acting accordingly. It’s about not leading people on. You know there’s a problem when we can be available for the trappings of companionship and skip out when it no longer works for us with out saying to the person why (and once is enough; we don’t have to give a monologue on why they are inept for us).
Did I just tell my former boss that I wasn’t really feeling the job and then leave with no explanation? Um…no. Did I just drop out of a former college program by saying, “You know this isn’t working for me, bye.” No, I had a formal explanation along with the proper paperwork.
When we choose to engage with people deeply, by all means yes we owe them explanations. That said once we say the what, why, and how, if there is a breakup involved we honor our what why when how. We have obligations to people, but we aren’t chained to other humans. It’s about being fully honest and respectful to people you choose to be around and then maintaining assertive boundaries all along the way. You respectfully tell someone that you want to break up and why and what your expectations are and you stick to your word. We really shouldn’t be picking people to date that end up being unworthy of simple, proper explanations.
Obligations to people are not inherently bad.
“It’s about healthy honest communication and expression and acting accordingly. It’s about not leading people on. You know there’s a problem when we can be available for the trappings of companionship and skip out when it no longer works for us with out saying to the person why”
^Thank you for saying that^
“It’s about not pretending things are okay and up and leaving.”
^And this part too.^
People could probably argue around the definition of “engage with people deeply” but having to explain that in itself would signify a problem.
It’s good to hear that you’re feeling stronger. Your perspective aligns with what I believe as well.
Love this Peanut, you’re absolutely right. Very well said! Just disappearing on someone without an explanation only seems justifiable if the other person did something so egregious that no explanation is necessary. Or of course if there are safety issues involved. Otherwise it’s simply decent and respectful to be honest with the other person – and do it IN person, not cowardly, by text! No matter if it’s difficult and uncomfortable and you’d rather skip the whole thing. That’s called maturity. You’re very right, Peanut, there are some obligations we have to other humans, and also by breaking up with someone properly, you honor yourself as well.
With regards to the Dr Nerdlove article, I agree with your comments: with some exceptions (physical harm, abuse, etc.), “ghosting” is a cowardly way to avoid conflict, leaving the other party to wonder what happened. That’s not what I read in this article. The dumped dude claims he was “cut off” but that’s not true. The woman broke it off with him, tried to be friends and when it was clear that wasn’t possible, she went total NC.
What struck me (and why I shared it) was this guy’s feeling of continued entitlement to her attention, her explanations – even after she says she no longer wants to hear from or see him again. The dumped dude clearly wants DNL to vilify Emma but instead, he can see how this guy’s reactions to the breakup reveals his basic lack of viewing her as a person, lack of empathy. I think that’s a powerful observation, especially coming from another guy (DNL).
Once we’ve conveyed our decision (whatever that looks like), we’re under no obligation to defend it, keep explaining or listen to their objections. I think the article does a great job of pointing out that sometimes EUMs are objecting to NC not really because they disagree with our reasons (although that’s what they might claim), but because they don’t even view us as having the right to walk away from them in the first place. That’s the big a-ha I took away from this article and it made me view EUM reactions to NC in a new way.
Michelle, you are absolutely right about this as well. Once an explanation is given (if the situation is appropriate), it’s done. As you said “we’re under no obligation to defend it, keep explaining or listen to their objections.”
I wholeheartedly agree with what you wrote here, Peanut. We should strive to be decent in breakups, if we can, if circumstances allow, without putting ourselves in danger. But we don’t owe the person anything more than decency. We cannot be their crutch to lean on to help them get past it. Nor can they be our crutch.
I admire how you are shaping your life, Peanut. Want you to know that your posts have delivered inspiration to me when I most need it.
^ I do want to say I have walked away from jobs, people, and dynamics where I wasn’t even an afterthought so any explanation would have been like talking to a bowl of yoghurt. Also, I’m pretty sure my presence was not noted or missed at certain crap jobs I’ve had. But, in any situation where there is engagement without violence, I do make sincere efforts at care no matter my comfort level.^
Say Something,
Thank you for your responses. I do believe we think alike because I used the up arrows as well before I got a chance to read your comments.
It’s been an interesting journey but as of late I generally end up happy I get to be a part of it and exist.
Say,
Sorry I think I’m confusing myself about the arrows. (I’ve been up all night reading.) Also, I definitely chose people and places that I deemed worthy of desertion. Sometimes the ol’ using people to pass time comes to play when there’s a quick getaway without any explanation of provocation for the sudden leave of absence. (It’s not fun to be on either side.)
Michelle,
I am glad you responded to me; I got a lot out of your response. You bring up the point that sometimes people feel as though a person has no right to break up with them and move on. I don’t really have a problem staying casual acquaintances with men I’ve gone on a date with and such. But I have had some exes (the last imparticular) act as if I did something heinous by showing with my actions I was not a life long option for him should ever he fancy. Yes, it is insane how some men act like they posses us and have this delusional thinking that our no means less than. I’m glad I posted my thoughts on the article which lead me to your comment and reminded me of how my final say in regard to interacting with a man is valid. No always means no. & no more, always means Stop It. I never fail to be astounded by the strong, sensible voices I come across via this blog.
Xx Peanut