Each day I hear from people who agonise over ‘tricky’ decisions such as:
Should I accept the offer of being in a casual relationship when I know that I don’t want it / wouldn’t be able to handle it?
Should I be the Other Woman/Guy?
Should I stay or should I go? This person doesn’t treat me with love, care, trust and respect.
Should I, in fact, can I say NO to something that busts my boundaries?
I regularly emphasise the importance of knowing your own line and exercising your right to say no because for some people it’s as if “no” is a dirty word that’s been erased from their vocabulary.
Here’s the thing: It’s understandable to feel conflicted over a once in a lifetime opportunity or something great that will add value to your life but feeling bad about saying no to something that you’re far from being the only person who can fill that role is like Jedi mind tricking you into a scarcity mentality. It’s as if this person in putting their rinky dinky offer on the table now holds the key to life and your future rests in their hands. Really? Say it with me: they’re just not that special.
When we battle with saying no to something that we’re perfectly within our right to and isn’t in line with our own needs, expectations, boundaries etc, it’s because we’re either operating from a position of believing that the other party is entitled to our yes (they’re not) or because we know what we want to say but have the ‘Should’ Voice of Doubt & Guilt trying to talk over our true selves.
This is your life, your boundaries, your decisions – these people act in their own best interests and you should be able to act in yours. Remember that saying no doesn’t mean that you’re acting in your best interests by screwing someone over. Let them take care of their own stuff and you take care of yours.
Take the friends with benefits / booty call ‘offer’ – what’s to stress about? Due to the nature of what’s being proposed, if you don’t want to do it, it’s no big deal because it’s casual, plus it’s not much of an offer (although it might look like it if you’re not doing much for you) and there are plenty of people about who can fill the role. Genuine dating, progressing on to a mutually fulfilling relationship takes effort, intimacy, commitment etc – casual relationships are low effort and are easily replicable roles. You dignifying this situation by stressing about declining gives the impression that this person is oh-so-special. They’re not! There’s no fire, it’s not your last supper, so stop acting as if you declining to hop on the booty express means that you’re now cut out of the relationship ‘lottery’.
When you feel bad you’re essentially saying, “I’m a terrible person for causing you to have to go out there and make a little more effort to find someone who will shag / ego stroke / give you everything without expecting very much back. I should just say yes and make it easy for you.”
Why feel bad about saying no when it’s not like they feel about bad about asking or expecting this stuff of you or doing shady stuff? A relationship where only one of you has a conscience in it normally features a doormat…
When it comes to affairs, don’t feel bad about declining or opting out – they have someone already so it’s like feeling guilty about not giving them double helpings and being their backup supply. Just because they ask or coerce doesn’t mean it’s your destiny or their right. You have choices.
It also says a lot about how we’re conditioned to be people pleasers when we see shady behaviour in our early dealings with someone and feel bad about the recognition of it as if, “Oooooops! How dreadful of me to notice that they’re not being very nice to me!” It’s sad but true that what you won’t put up with there is somebody else only too willing to. Sure you can live your life being frightened of the possibility that they’ll spontaneously combust into a better person in a better relationship but maybe it’s time to question why your happiness and sense of self hinges on a long shot of someone else making dramatic changes – make your own!
Of course you can say no to something that busts your boundaries – the fact that another person might put up with what you won’t doesn’t invalidate your boundaries. Why feel bad about not being a willing participant? They’re not your only option and ‘Yes’ isn’t your only option either.
In much the same way that your flaws don’t make you exceptionally different because everybody has them, the fact that someone is proposing or even trying to coerce you into something shady doesn’t make them exceptionally special or powerful nor does it make whatever it is an exceptional opportunity. There will always be people willing to chance it and ask for / do stuff that they know is wrong / shady – for these people it’s their path of least resistance so don’t make your path of least resistance a people pleasing one that leaves you in pain.
Your thoughts?
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Natalie,
“When it comes to affairs, don’t feel bad about declining or opting out – they have someone already so it’s like feeling guilty about not giving them double helpings and being their backup supply”
So true! It’s sad when we feel we are only good enough to be someone’s “supplement”. I think the exMM actually used that word near the beginning of our relationshit. Barf, puke, soooo disrespectful and I allowed it! Looking back it’s so obvious I let him bust up my boundaries, and even gave him a helping hand.
No more.
NO, NO, NO, NO, NO.
Ten months later and the sky has not fallen after saying no to that user. As a former FBG, “No” may have left my vocabulary temporarily, but it’s back. Thank goodness, it’s back! YES!!!!!
Learner,
Isn’t it wonderful to be able to say that simple little word “NO”, mean it, and follow through? Thank you Natalie and the BR community for the awareness that even though I couldn’t say no as a kid, I can say no as an adult. Things get so twisted when saying yes to a MM or any shady situation means saying no to you. I read your last comment about the exMM begging to be friends…barf, puke is right. Fortunately, the exMM in my situation never played the friends card. I think he knew it wouldn’t work. Suggestion: Schedule a pedicure/manicure, lunch, and shopping with your daughter on the upcoming anniversary date of NC with the exMM. You’ll be so busy spending money, you wont have time to think about him and you’ll feel great.
Good luck with the exhubby. Keep your BR eyes open.
Runner, yes I agree with all you wrote. Lucky for you the exMM did not ask to be friends. It’s hell on earth! And great suggestion re the pedicure. I don’t think my daughter has ever had one. The first week of May was the one year anniversary of “breaking up” with the exMM cheating cheater. June 27 will be one year NC. I think I will take your suggestion further and do something with my daughter for both! Thanks!
Runner girl! Thanks for the idea! I am going to do that with my daughters on the 6th month anniversary of NC in 2 weeks! Great suggestion! My life is soo much better since I said no and flushed!
Learner and Lucky, how nice for both of you and your daughters. I think I’m finding the more I do for me (thanks to Nat), the more I realize that his rinky dink offer of being the OW back up supply totally sucked. I wish I could suck all the smoke I blew up his bum back out!
Learner, congratulations on almost a year NC and Lucky congratulation to you too on 6 months NC. Saying no to shady crap really works. Now, go get those manicures/pedicures and you’ll be floating on air!
I am feeling so sad and confused. Went out with someone for about a month and it is over, and trying to understand what went wrong. Had 3 amazing dates, on 3 rd said I would not sleep with him unless in an exclusive relationship, and said thought we would be awesome if we decided that together over time. The next time I see him, he asks for clarification, said he could not offer exclusivity at that point (did not expect that at 3 dates)and the convo got weird and heavy not because of my clarification but because of some weird stuff he was saying about ending things with people. By the 5th and 6th date, he was still calling, but less, and limiting our time together. The last time, he waited until 15 minutes before the date to spend time, and while he had only planned on spending 2 hours together stayed out 1 1/2 hours more. We had a really nice time.
This guy had said on date one how he was consumed with work ( a startup), that women did not a,ways understand his priorities, every time we got together he would have some sort of “if I have to work”, and talked about a partner fitting in when he had time.
After our last date, which was very fun, I felt like I was begging him to spend time with me, so I sent him and email ending it. I said I liked him, wanted more, and that I did not want to pressure him so goodbye.
He responded with that he appreciated my directness, was sad to say goodbye, had love how good of a communicator and listener and great date that I was, and how he loved how he could share with me.
What the hell, if you believe those things, you let it walk out the door? I feel confused and sad. I wonder if I had not mentioned the sex thing, if it would have gone smoother.
I feel sad, and confused, and still am blaming myself.
I think you are very lucky. This fun man you dated for a month validated you, told you what a great communicator you were and a good listener for him.
He was also honest with you in saying he didn’t want to be exclusive, basically would like casual sex, and didn’t
have time to fit in a partner.
Do not feel one drop sad, confused or that you are to blame that he did not want to proceed into a relationship. He told you he wasn’t emotionally available. Be glad. So many men don’t…
He hinted he wanted a partner, but was never very clear in what he was looking for. Those conversations were always a bit fuzzy. When asked about past relationships, he spoke of intensity, not duration. That should have been a red flag for a 41 year old
As to the validation. That was the hardest part. For sometime I felt afraid I was not good at connecting. He gave me the ultimate gift of validating that I am a fun date, a good communicator and vulnerable enough to share. That makes it much harder because we connected and he still walked away.
Super,
He told you upfront that he didn’t have the time for a relationship. Many times we ignore or hope things will change.
Men are pretty forthcoming, but we must listen to what’s being said.
Hi Superbad,
Out of curiosity, did he ask you to sleep with him or indicate strongly that he wanted to? Just wondering.
He did not say he wanted to sleep with me. We has been making out all over town. I was taking Evan mark Katzs advise. I proactively said I see we have strong chemistry, I think we would be awesome in this dept, but I won’t do that without being exclusive. I did it before he invited me over because I did not want it to be an issue when we were going farther in the minute. At that time, he had been calling me and spending time with me etc. And after that night, at least for a few days, he continued to pursue heavily.
Ehm..E.M.Katz doesn’t advice you to talk about exclusivity on the 3rd date. As far as I remember, he says to be receptive (not proactive), date other people (which doesn’t indicate sleeping with them) and observe if he is willing to be exclusive with you.If that doesn’t happen in a couple of months-wave him goodbye. To be honest, I would get somewhat weirded out if a guy would start talking about exclusivity on the 3rd date (usually 3 dates take just a week or 10 days).And why talk about sex in the first place, if he doesn’t even hint on that? If you make out-fine, just don’t go to the guys place (or yours), so that not to create the possibility of jumping into bed.
Lau_ra, Katz is notorious for blaming women for men’s bad behavior. I would read him with caution. Also, due to Superbad’s decision to make out with him all over town, especially from the get-go, went into his place and “fooled around”, not only did she set herself up for failure for a real relationship, she rendered it necessary to have to set the record straight from the beginning. Kudos to her for doing so! I wish I did!
This isn’t a judgment upon her or anybody. As another one of my posts states, “kissing all over town” is how I ended up here on BR. Even though I was telling the guy “no sex”, my actions were sending him a different message. Actions and words have to match. He’s responsible for his own sins against me but I have to own my sins too. We all do! That’s a part of the healing process.
Btw, I still cannot wrap my head around the concept of “double” or even “multiple dating”. Maybe it’s because I’m from Europe.
I think we can weed out 9 in 10 losers within a few dates (read: within two or three weeks I think) because as we can see here, most red flags appear right at the beginning. Why oh why do we need to go out with several guys during that short period of time? It makes no sense to me, and I don’t understand why any guy I dated would need to line up other “options” during that time either.
I have been single for more years than I can count, and I’ve been on a strict dating hiatus for two years now. I totally cannot understand why I should suddenly start dating several guys at a time???
EllyB, I’m with you! I can’t imagine trying to date multiple guys and doing any of them justice. Doesn’t that “water down” the ability to focus on the experience and see if there’s a real connection with any one of them? You’re right, it sounds like “lining” up options and that reduces people to commodities.
Aside from that, it sounds exhausting!
EllyB,
Its fairly common, almost the norm here in Australia. And I have struggled with it all my adult dating life. I think its got something to do with “you dont know who you like, so might as well keep your options open and try a few — at the same time”.
I have always believed that this is disrespectful-to myself and to the man/men. They might be ok with it but I am not – I have always clearly stated that I wont be seeing other men (some tend to panic and run; others have used it to their advantage; few have thought it was lovely and honest) and that things wont be getting serious between us until he happy to spend time getting to know me and me only. I dont get it at all, I too dont see why they need other options while going out with me. And I know women here do it too. People dont get it when I present my view.
Nevertheless, just because everyone does it, doesnt mean it is right. And it doesnt work for me. Dont care what people think that says about me.
Sometimes,I feel a bit like a crazy coloured crayon in this box of normal water colours!
I completely lost all respect for my ex when I realized that his method of “dating” was to sleep with and “sample” as many women as possible until he found one he really liked. Then toss aside all the rest.
Sorry, but I don’t want to be with people who have a “chocolate box” mentality about other human beings – you know, those people who carelessly take one bite out of each chocolate in order to find the ones they really like.
Amen! Its just not me and I dont get people who do that. Recently, Ive realised I cant even do a snog without thinking about the person later. Good old, old fashioned love for me now!
Superbad,
Don’t be sad. You clearly expressed what you wanted (no sex until exclusive, and that you wanted to spend more time with him. Bravo to you!
Obviously that was not what he was looking for, based on his response.
And that is OK.
The sooner you get to a “no” with someone, the sooner you can be looking for someone who might be a great match for you.
Superbad:
This guy sounds a lot like a guy I went out with, so much so it’s scary. You didn’t happen to meet him on a dating site did you? Curious about what he said regarding ending things with people. Clearly he wasn’t good at it. It was his loss, not yours. You saved yourself a lot of emotional turmoil with that one.
I did meet him online in a large Midwestern city. Would be scary if the same person. Is that the case for you? What happened and when?
I honestly do not remember what he said, it was a fairly jumbled mess. But what I remember was that he wanted to be able to run into EXs without and have them say nice things. This was when I simply clarified no sex, won’t wait around forever and assumed he was dating others.
When I ended it, he seemed thrilled that I was straightforward. I tend to think he manages down expectations until the woman acts up and then it ends.
Whenever we saw each other we talked about his work incessantly. It definitely felt like his time was more valuable. I am also a high powered person, he enjoyed my business acumen theoretically, but never really asked about my work. I knew it would be on his terms. At 4 or 5 dates, I want to be able to engage. I was feeling like I still had to hold back.
Sannatay, what industry was your guy in?
Superbad. Sounds like he’s MARRIED!!!. He’s got work, alright. A WIFE!. You haven’t lost a thing , or missed anything but a BAD HEADACHE.
You brought up sex, first? WHY??!!!! He’s right about one thing, 3 dates is way too early to be discussing exclusivity.
I did not want to have a long discussion. We were on date 3, things were progressing (kissing at a bar) and I said I think we have great sexual chemistry, and I think we would be great sexually, but I don’t sleep with men unless I am exclusive. This was not to make him exclusive then, it was to say when we cross that bridge. He then brought it up the next time I saw him.
He was definately not married. And I do not regret telling him I would not sleep with someone I am not exclusive with. That did not mean we would be exclusive at that moment.
We did go back to his place that night and fooled around
If you don,t want to sleep with someone you don,t go back to his place.
Why shouldn’t you mention the sex thing? Isn’t that important to you?
His behaviour proves it wasn’t worth you putting any more time into getting to know him, because he wasn’t prepared to step up and say yes or no to what you wanted and had stated honestly and clearly. It’s a big ‘having cake and eating cake’ signal!
Superbad, if you are feeling confused, there’s a good reason for it. DO NOT blame yourself or feel superbad. This guy offered you nothing. He upfront told you, that you would have to fit in with his superbusy work life. Meaning, oh well, if he can’t spend time, commit, etc. BTW, there is no reason you should feel bad about having a convo about not having sex unless you are in a committed relationship. That’s a supergood boundary! Yay you!
He told you how great you are and yada, yada, yada, I don’t really want to label him an assclown, but he sounds like he has all the makings of one. I think you should congratulate yourself for cutting him off and not wasting any more time. There’s nothing like the power of NO!
He was not an assclown, but pretty unavailable.the issue is the other woman here was work and maybe other women. However, I cannot fathom how he was dating others – he was talking to me on the phone at those times. Oh well.
With Lucky on this one – awesome boundaries! Good job you! I think its great that you talked about how you were not ok with sex before exclusivity. I think that is something that is vital. Something like this is never too soon, you did it when you felt it was right for you. Kudos. Dont ever change that.
Superbad, It sounds like he probably did enjoy having you around, but that he wanted it on his terms. That isn’t fair to you, to expect you to settle for scraps of his time, and it isn’t realistic for you either. Nobody should be expected to drop everything at a moment’s notice because he happens to have a free hour or two. But to me what it really shows is a lack of respect for your time, as if it isn’t as important or valuable as his. That’s very selfish of him, if he’d valued you and your company he would have been making the time to see you. Simple as that. None of us should have to settle for having to beg for somebody’s attention, we all deserve better than that.
See above, answered this one and yep.
He was making some time, but it was feeling like fitting in, not prioritizing. He was not even able to take care of himself. I left because I was becoming an option he was going to choose, not someone who he was investing in.
Superbad, Ok…let’s say you didn’t mention the “sex thing”, lead him on to believe you were both on the same page regarding that…how would this be better?? You’d be unintentionally misleading him in order to keep him all the while losing yourself. He was slowly but surely fading away because he couldn’t rise to your level.
FWIW, I believe you did the right thing by being upfront from the beginning. You respected yourself and him (isn’t about what he “deserves”; it’s about your acting with integrity and strength of character).
As far as his not chasing you when you ended things in spite of all his wonderful words, there’s a saying, “You’re actions are speaking so loud,I can’t hear what you’re saying.”
Someone on here(I can’t remember who) said something that I always remember when a man shows interest: “He’s not going to buy you a diamond ring on the third date so why are you going to hand over your body?”
Look, standing up for you is always the right thing to do. As painful as it is, his fading interest proves it.
Hey superbad!I think you can be very proud of yourself!!You communicated right AND you opted out when you realized that he was Mr. Unavailable that you were having dates with. 🙂
Be happy, you´ve got boundaries and know whats good for you and what you want!
I was not being a prude. I said I found him very attractive, thought we would be very great in that dept and I like a lot of sex in a relationship, but in a relationship. We had been kissing for hours at restaurants and bars…
No, you were not being a prude, by a long shot.
Agree with every word Rosie has said here. I need to work on this too – to be open from the beginning and act with greater integrity.
Thanks Rosie 🙂
You’re welcome, PurpleLily. I’m working on it too. 🙂
Superbad, you were right to state your needs and values.
However, you said he “let it walk out the door”. It sounds like you told him goodbye to try to make him fight for you.
From my experience, guys take what you say at face value. If you say you’re done, he will believe you.
Spiral, I was saying gooodbye. But if I am honest, part of me was hoping he would fight for me. Not sure why I thought he would, if he would not really step up when together. I guess I was sad that he was letting me walk out the door by not being attentive at the end.
Superbad, you did everything perfectly. Please have no regrets at all. You avoided:
1) allowing this guy to line you up for a non-relationship on HIS terms. (You’ll notice he was already building an escape hatch with the “if I have to work” thing.)
2) being perpetually confused about where your connection was going. Because you laid your requirements out, and he knew he could not meet them.
3) feeling used because you had sex before becoming exclusive, and then having to wonder who else he was sleeping with and what diseases he was bringing back to you.
You saved yourself a lot of heartache, Superbad. Good for you, this connection was never going to be a winner. Don’t blame yourself, please!
I realize I was sorely lacking boundaries when I agreed to a casual relationshit. It was totally one-sided. I had no liberties whatsoever, so I only saw him on his terms. I broke a lot of rules in this arrangement and did things with him sexually that I’d never done with anyone else. Regardless of how he treated me outside the bedroom (he often blew hot and cold), I kept coming back for more. The sex was amazing and I was hooked!! It ended a month ago (after 5 months of back and forth) , as he because distant, stopped responding to texts, and wouldn’t answer my calls. The worst part is that I have to see him every day at work, and he acts like everything is fine. Of course, I am having a hard time dealing with this, because no one needs a daily reminder that they were stupid enough to allow themselves to be used, and basically got played. I have never been good at hiding my emotions, so I know he is well aware that he is tormenting me, and he just doesn’t care. I have taken many a break from my desk to go sit in my car and have a good cry because sometimes when I see him or hear his voice, I have an intense emotional reaction. Of course, I would never discuss my personal business at work, so confiding in a coworker is totally out of the question. I would think that he would appreciate the fact that I haven’t blabbed about what’s been going on between us, and how he is a narcissistic womanizing user, but of course I must remember that I am culpable as well. I have been unable to sleep through the night, even with the assistance of Ambien, and I started taking Xanax just to get through the day. I don’t know what made me think that he was decent enough to treat me better than he did, but apparently, that’s how I taught him to treat me. I realize I have to forgive myself for that. Just this week he brought a new “lady friend” to the office, and I don’t understand why I’m having such a hard time letting go of the hurt, anger, and resentment. It’s not like we were a couple, we never lived together or had a baby, yeah it was 5 months, and he never paid any of my bills or did anything for me, it was just sex! I was doomed when I allowed myself to actually have feelings for him – TREMENDOUS MISTAKE! I must live with my decision, must function through the pain, and I pray to God that the end of these horrible feelings and emotional upset is approaching sooner than later, because I’d rather expend my energy doing something positive and uplifting.
Sanntay. Never, ever, ever, have a sexual relationshit with a co-worker. Maybe some women can handle it better when it goes south, but you don’t sound like you’re one of them. It is far too uncomfortable and self-torturing when you have to SEE him much less WORK with him every day. I, for one would not be able to stand it and be able to concentrate on my work with all those tumultuous feelings going on in my head and heart.
The chances of either of you going to another job or another department are probably minimal, but at lesst explore if that is an option for you. Until then, you will have to pull yourself together. You cannot continue crying in your car during lunch. I feel so bad for you. But, LEARN THE LESSON. No more hook ups with male co-workers. I’m sure you’re not that desperate for companionship. Look elsewhere. Good luck. Log on here and let it out. I’m sure you have a lot of built up feelings and nobody here will know you.
Another thought, Sanntay. He’s not concerned about you blabbing the fact all over the office. He knows that it’s far more humiliating for you the woman than it is for him the man. It was an uneven playing field from start to finish. with YOU having more to lose. Please try not to take Xanax and Ambien, too? OMG! That is heavy duty sedation. I know.
Sanntay. Lastly, what you are doing with the meds is dangerous. I don’t know where you live but in the US it would be more than questionable that any doctor would prescibe BOTH Xanax and Ambien to a young woman. Did you get both prescriptions from one MD? Is he a psychiatrist? I don’t want to scare you, but this is serious. Stop! Better to steel yourself through the day without Xanax, and have one glass of wine at bedtime for relaxation and sleep. NO MEDS. If that’s not possible, look into enlisting a therapist, right now. It doesn’t mean you are crazy to get professional help. If everything you have said is without exaggeration, you’re clearly at the edge of a cliff. Get help.
Sanntay, I’ve been exactly where you are and I know what havoc this is wreaking on your mind and emotions. When I got involved at work (with my boss no less!) I could have written these words when it all went south: “no one needs a daily reminder that they were stupid enough to allow themselves to be used, and basically got played.”
My, did I ever feel stupid and used, and unfortunately I wasted a lot of time beating myself up instead of treating myself with great care, kindness and understanding. I don’t want to see you go down that road. Don’t attack yourself for your Tremendous Mistake (or as I used to think of it, while I was wringing my hands, as my Great Debacle, capital “G”, capital “D”) because that would actually be a worse mistake than whatever you initially did.
I have a wise friend who says “So you made a mistake? Good for you!” Huh? It took me a long time to get it. But she’s right.
I’ve finally learned something about mistakes – they’re never as dire as we think they are. Never! They are teachers, not disasters. Very, very few have truly irredeemable consequences. It’s taken me well into my 50s to understand that mistakes are just about the ONLY way to learn anything. Life, God, the Universe, etc. is far more tolerant of our mistakes than we are, and gives us plenty of space to explore and learn from them. I used to think they were the end of the world, and that a mistake, especially a sexual or relationship mistake, meant that life was Officially Ruined. But not anymore.
So, please give yourself a break! When you write that you were “doomed” and you have to “live with your decision” this sounds way too ominous and judgmental. You don’t need that burden – be gentle with yourself. Start with self-forgiveness and I guarantee that the pain will get better. Good luck!
This was bueatiful:
“So you made a mistake? Good for you!”
Thank you for sharing the story behind it… very helpful
OK Don’t feel confused. These Assclowns are MASTER manipulators!! Don’t believe a thing they say. It is what they DO! that counts. I was recently OFFERED a married mans “morning wood?” I was soo FIN insulted I told him he was out of his mind. I swear there are just soo many men out there that are CREEPS!!! I don’t care if I ever date again!!!
Sorry but that made me laugh! What a crumby offer! So sleazy!
Glad you told him where to shove his morning wood. 🙂
“Glad you told him where to shove his morning wood”. Love it 🙂
@Superbad,
I have been lurking here for a while, but I simply HAD to respond to you because I just went through EXACTLY the same thing. Your last two paragraphs were me and my “gone one”, right down to the wording.
Here’s the first thing I want to say: You did NOTHING wrong! There’s no need to blame yourself. I’m not denigrating your feelings–I simply want you to know others have been EXACTLY where you are.
Here’s the second thing: Your guy had one foot out the door from Day One. Think about it, go back over what he said, and determine for yourself if that comment fits like the proverbial shoe.
Here’s the third thing: While your feelings are real, and you are no doubt a loving, kind person with SO MUCH love to give, he IS NOT. Yes, you want to believe he is, otherwise why would you be attracted to him? But think about what you asked: “WTH, if you believe those things, you let it walk out the door?”, and turn the question on what YOU, the loving, kind person with SO MUCH love to give, would do. Would you walk out the door? Of course not. Well, he would, and did. That may not make him unloving or unkind, but it does make him UNAVAILABLE.
It’s hard, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY hard, to give up those dreams of what tomorrow could have held–and yet, tomorrow can still hold those dreams.
Just not with him.
And that’s okay.
Or it will be, in a lifetime or two.
Ell.. I couldnt have written it better. You are spot on & I hope that Superbad reads your response over & over till it sinks in: She did nothing wrong, he is unavailable for a relationship …period,end
Actually my new name is Ms. No longer an option.
After more roller coaster, flip flapping behavior, I have finally said no to the ex mm.
About 3 weeks ago ex mm’s wife was arrested yet again for DUI and 2 cases of child endangerment, she had a wreck with both her children in the car. She went to jail mm came on stronger went out in public with me twice but only when he was getting something out of it. Once for me to buy him clothes for his birthday, the next for me to get him a cell phone added to my plan( yes I was stupid enough to let him talk me into adding him). She gets out of jail he puts her out, says he’s done, the whole I want to spend my life with you blah, blah. He’s showering me with attention and affection for about 4 days after me getting his phone. Then the calls stop the texts are less. Little did he know I could check his calls and texts on my account online. He’s calling and texting her all the time. We have a big argument at work he promises he’s going to stay in touch more. Don’t hear from him that night or the next morning. I check the phone records see an unusual number, call to find out where it is. It’s a Gay bar!!! I couldn’t believe it. I send him a text tell him it’s over an I wanted 400 for breaking the phone contract and turn his phone off. But didnt tell him about knowing about the phone call. He comes back with haven’t been ignoring you, have been sick and resting and says he will have the money sat. Didnt even try to fight for me.
I decide I have to know the truth. Since they are separated already I call his wife tell her I need to talk to her. She invites me over. I tell her I’ve been involved with him 3 years. She seems shocked but not. I tell her how he has treated me, she apologizes to me, wtf? It turns out everything he has said is a lie. She showed me texts where he is telling her he wants her back and wants her to be consumed with him and be the perfect wife he married. All the same long, romantic texts he was sending me. He calls her the same nickname he does me. There are so many things he lied to me and her about. She wants me to go with her and confront him that night. We go. He comes to the door and acts so nonchalant. It was one of the strangest, weirdest nights I’ve ever experienced. All the way over she is telling me I might hit him and don’t be surprised at what I say but then she would say you say anything you want. We get there and she stands behind me. She tells him he has some explaining to do and he says so coldly ” no I don’t”. He acted so cocky. He wouldn’t really talk. Denied agreeing that they were getting back together. Said he had decided he was better off alone. When I asked if he had ever loved me he said yes in front of her. When I confronted him about the gay bar he said he didn’t know it was a gay bar. Said it was none of my business. And that’s about all he said. I was the one grilling him and telling him what he was. She actually stood there and apologized to him for whatever she had done to make him do this. Finally we just left he wouldn’t talk.
I took her home, she took my number and said she thinks she had at least made a friend out of all this and then hugged me and apologized again for what he had put me through. My friend was with me an we are still kind of in shock.
Anyway I now realize I was involve with a true narcissist and I think he has beat down his wife and messed with her head so much that she will accept anything from him. I can now say I am through with him for good. I do mourn for the person I thought he was but everything was fake. I still have to work with him but I’m no longer attracted to him. This happened tues night and wed we have worked together every day since. He has not said a word about anything that happened. It appears from her calls to our business and the way he talks on the phone that they are getting back together. I feel sad for her but she knows the truth about him and that’s all I can do.
But I am free. There were so many times I should have said no and didnt. Would have saved a lot of heartache.
Ms No Longer An Option
Welcome to the other side of the looking glass. You made it. And you’ll be just fine.
Looking at your description of his behaviour dispassionately, I can only think the man’s mentally disturbed. Anyone involved with him full time long term is not going to live to a ripe old age. He’s a disease.
He uses woman like kleenex tissues. But that’s obviously not enough for him because he’s also doing gay pick-ups on the down low. Think about it: who rings bars any more? People ring bars only if a) they’re very, very regular visitors, they’re familiar with the staff, and they want to know if so-and-so is there tonight, or b) they have no access to the internet and want to ask a basic operational question oh such as ‘when do you close tonight?’.
The whole scenario ended in pretty much the only way that might have been expected — everything falling down around his lugholes. That his wife might take him back says everything about how damaged she is and how she got that way. That would have been you, had you not put a stop to his disgusting games.
Ms Option,
Congratulations on becoming Ms No Longer an Option! This man sounds like a self-serving manipulative creep, who deserves to hear NO many times over. His poor wife! I hope you soon feel the benefits of getting out of this effed up situation. Have you read Natalie’s section in the NC rule about NC with someone at work? I found it so helpful when I had to see the exMM narc at committee meetings. I will have to see him in a couple weeks and will be re-reading that section of the ebook. It will be tough, but so worth it in the long run. You go girl!
poor kids having such wonderful example as parents they deserve each other you and the kids dont
Hey there Ms. No Longer an Option, sorry you had to gut it out to the bitter end. It sounds like a dramatic ending. There were many times I should have said no, then there were many times I did say no, only to wake up in the morning and say yes. Would have saved a lot of heartache if I’d stuck with my no. Then finally, I hit the wall. Hopefully, you’ve hit the wall and can start to focus on you. It doesn’t matter whether he is getting back together with his wife. That is their business. The exMM got back with his wife after our dramatic ending. After the heat subsided and therapy ended, he still continued to knock at my door. Once I realized I could have the real thing and say no to his rinky dink offer, I was able to say no…I’m paraphrasing…it was more like eff off asshole. You aren’t that special. Go home to your wife and leave me alone. Fuck off. I think that is the same thing as no.
So now, how about a name change? How about Ms. Sunshine? Or Ms. Ocean Breeze? Or Ms. Free? Or Ms. Windy? Something other than Ms. Option. Even Ms. No?
Superbad,
Superbad, you sound super good to me. You did the perfect detective work and found out that the guy is most definitely an EUM! Good job! Trust me you want to know now, not later when you might be very hurt. Think about it, did he present a heart, someone who could care about you, even what you want? Or did he present a defensive, narcissistic viewpoint of me me me , what I want and need, and you better fit into the picture. He is controlling, selfish about your feelings unless they make him feel powerful, like spending money on you. It also sounds to me like he has a girlfriend tucked away. You did good, Bad A+! congrats and now feel the feelings and carry on exactly as do!!!
My association with the “Superbad” user name: James Brown.
“I got soul, and I’m superbad!” That you are; you saw the bullet coming and got out of the way. Very wise IMO.
Superbad,
He’s not a “keeper” in disguise. Let that one go. Whatever you did or did not mention doesn’t change who he is.
Jenny
Superbad
Right now, give yourself a serious pat on the back for not allowing yourself to be used for sex because that is exactly what he intended.
I wanna add another “NO”; never ever settle for a substandard person or relationship for fear of being alone. There is no such thing as “better than nothing”!
Super,
I want to address your emotions a bit. It is hard to feel bad when we do something good for ourselves, which is why so many of us compromise ourselves, so the guy feels good. We are so invested, maybe it’s a female quality, in how the man feels and mistake that for our own feelings. You must continue to weed them out, like you did with this guy to get the good one. You may have saved yourself months, even years with the wrong guy. I had this experience a couple days ago. I’m on vacation alone in Maui. Anyways, I went into a bar alone, which is sooo hard for me, but the music was good, so I crept in the door, one foot in one foot out, trying not to be conspicuous, well I had to go in and this guy made it easy because he invited me to join his friends. I was grateful and joined him. I found him attractive and even felt chemistry when we danced. We had drinks and he told me his life story. How he cheated on his first wife when he was in his 20’s (he’s 50) to be with his next wife. I’m thinking this is not good. He said he felt bad, and never told her so she won’t feel badly about herself. Then, his next wife was an alcoholic and she was the one, but it got too hard, and on and on. I was seeing red flags, but he was very charming…..what made me think he was not trustworthy, if that wasn’t enough, was when, at the very end he told me he had a girlfriend for 3 years, didn’t cheat on her, but left her to go back to his ex wife! And the other thing he did was call himself an asshole in a joking way, when I asked do you think that’s true he said no, but repeated it again. So, to end this long tale, I was supposed to meet up with him and his friends the next evening and I was fighting with myself, because I hate walking into bars alone (unless it’s for salsa dancing) and I felt too proud, like I’m chasing a guy. Anyways, I did walk in and then I walked out , I didn’t see him, but saw his friend and I went home. I beat myself up a bit, like why didn’t I meet up with him , maybe I judged him harshly etc. But I also knew myself and how vulnerable I can be to a charmer, and I could eventually get myself considering this guy if he kept in touch with me, even if only in my head, it would be a waste of my energy . So, I chose not to connect, again and play it safe. I think I did the right thing, but a part of me, that unhealthy part that wants to always give guys a chance. I think we need to side with the sane, smart part of ourselves that feels like a boring, constricting part, yet, it is the one I think that will get us there. Also, he accused me of having serious trust issues when I tried to acertain that my car, if left in the parking lot would be there the next morning, as we were taking a cab home (me to my home, him to his home) You see that was my smart sane self that wanted to know my car would be safe, it is that same part that would annoy a man like this because I probably would want a lot of assurance if I ever dated him!!!!! I really feel for his gF of 3 years, she must have had her fill of insecurity and he probably used that same line with her too!!! Keep doing it Super, we might be alone, but at least we’re sane and I do believe we will meet the one by staying on course and not taking these EUM detours. Good luck!
he did divorce the second wife, and then went back to her. I have to laugh, you see how much time I just invested to tell the tale of him and I only had one encounter with him!!! To all of us, don’t do it!
“There will always be people willing to chance it and ask for / do stuff that they know is wrong / shady – for these people it’s their path of least resistance so don’t make your path of least resistance a people pleasing one that leaves you in pain.” I never got this Natalie until I met you all. I thought it was somehow my fault that I attracted people like this, mostly men, and that I somehow could change them if I said yes. I can’t even believe I wrote that sentence.
On the note of saying NO, before I checked BR, I checked the online dating site. A guy I emailed responded saying that we seemed to have different goals. Based on my profile, he thought I was “refined” and he was “rugged around the edges, more of a player”. He didn’t think I was interested in a “hook-up”. My response: “Thanks for your honesty. Nope, no hook-ups for me. Good luck to you though”. That wasn’t a tricky decision and I didn’t even give it more than a 2 second thought. It was kind of ironic when I logged on to BR and found this post. Nope!
Runner,
Wow, an honest player, eh? Seriously do many women who have profiles that suggest “refined” really want a hookup? He has nerve at least! I don’t know much about the online dating world, but I give you credit for having the guts to sift through the shady responders. Best of luck to you in finding a suitable partner. He’s gonna have to rock! You deserve only the best. Good thing you have your BR eyes open. I like your reminder to keep mine open, too, with (ex) hubby. So far I am not seeing red flags, in fact those that used to be there seem to have converted to green after his therapy. No warnings from my gut yet either. Still cautiously optimistic. Like you said, thank goodness for BR!
Learner, so you still getting back together with ex husband? – wow! good luck.
EUM Roberto,
Yes, I am getting back together with my (ex)husband. It was not a simple decision but I feel it was the right one. We are growing together, and have ended contact with other partners we had in the time we were separated. Thanks for the good wishes. Luck to you, too, as you transition into being a single man after your divorce. Take care of you.
Dear Natalie, thank you so much for another great post, I am full of regrets and still (HOW CRAZY!) miss my ACs:( BUT when I read your posts I always “come back” to reality and remind myself, that I was a BOOTY CALL, nothing else and I must keep NC! IT is hard, I wish I could just erase them from my memory forever:)
Hey little star! It is exactly the same for me with Natalie´s posts.I am SO incredibly glad I have BR to come to and remind myself that I am aimed at in the right direction. I have been separated from the AC for over 2 months now and I think of him every day and also still cry quite a lot…BUT. And this is the point: I start to realize so many things about my own life and also,I don´t date, which in my former life was my way of digesting a failed relationship, hopping in with the next AC or MU!This time…I take my time.A lot of it. And it feels really good and though I am lonely sometimes there is so much to handle inside of me that I cannot even imagine being with a man, now that I am finally being honest to myself. As Natalie also said in one of her posts,it is very essentiell to grieve…
NC helps a lot as well.I wished I could stop my thoughts from going over the scnenes again and again, maybe it has become habitual.I do realize though that it WILL wear off one day and that I cannot avoid thinking this thoughts. But I can become aware of what I really need and who I am and that is the most important.
Also, being able to opt out on my own terms has given me ultimate feelings of self-empowerment and deep self love. Because I stood up for my own happiness and that is what I want to keep doing for the rest of my days.
Little Star & Sienna,
I am going through the same thing. 2&1/2 months NC. I am think about the AC every day, but I can feel the hold these thoughts having over me lessening. I would obsess so much it was driving me crazy. I can’t tell you how many times I have played the entire relationship over in my head… Or the conversations I make up in my head where I am telling him how he hurt me so much or I am just updating him on what has happened in my life since I last saw him. There is still a part of me that wants him in my life as a friend, but I am committed to NC. And like I said the thoughts of him derail me less than they used to and it is getting easier. I too have decided not to date until I am truly over it. I have a hard time letting go and in the past I have always jumped into a new relationship before I was over the last. I am not doing that anymore. NC has done a lot to improve my confidence and help me cope with my emotions. I am more hopeful when it comes to future relationships. The next time I date the guy is no longer going to be the center of my world because I have a lot more going on now and I can see the mistakes that I have made in the past.
Sienna and Melissa, thank you so much for sharing your stories/feelings! You are both right we need to “recover” from our relationshits before we ready to meet someone new:) I was the same, I jumped from AC 1 to AC 2, I presumed that I would feel less pain, but in the end I ended up with double pain from TWO AC! Live and learn:)
Hey Melissa!
It is So crazy here with Baggage Reclaim, that sometimes I read things from one of you, that could come out of my own mind, like when you just wrote:
“Or the conversations I make up in my head where I am telling him how he hurt me so much or I am just updating him on what has happened in my life since I last saw him.”
I can.so.empathize.with this one.
I have had the exact same feelings and they keep coming back to me, but I am in the exact same state that you are in! And funny Melissa, for me its exactly two and a half months as well (on Wednesday..omg Im still counting..:), so we said goodbye to the Assclowns at the SAME time 😀
I know the feeling so well of wanting to let him know that you have changed and being so proud of yourself that you would love for him to know that you no longer need him and that you no longer are this desperate person that cried about him..Well,this wishes are very normal I think. In the end,it will only count how much we value our life and that it feels great for us.
I had this very intense feelings of pure happiness and wholeness during the last days.Even though I had my Assclown conversations in mind at some points of the day, there was this intense feeling of happiness washing through me.Even tonight..I dreamed I was kissing another man that I know and really like (no dating at all involved,he is noone I would ever date but I think he is sexy and nice)and when I woke up I felt so free inside, like butterflies and security and all this things. But it wasn´t from the kissing in the dream…it came from myself finally taking care of myself!!I feel so secure like never before at times…And also,I would not date anybody soon, because I don´t even feel like it. I know I want to,later on. But I feel no rush and it feels so great to clean up inside of me and reduce so much of the old shame and blame in there that kept me from being happy for so many years. Sisters, we are gonna make it. 🙂
Hi Siena,
It’s nice to know we are not going it alone and that are situations are not that unique and that we will get through it like others have before.
This is a new me. I have never done NC before. One thing I am struggling with is trying to break NC at some point.
And to be honest I was going to ask you and other br readers to give me advice on if it was okay to contact the ex. I just spent the last 10 min writing out the background of our entire relationship and then
I answered my own question. I guess I still need the reminder that he is an AC.
One misstep that I perhaps made with my ex after going NC is that I left the door open a crack. He was obviously trying to be friends and busting my boundaries. Telling me he wasn’t over me yet and how maybe someday we could be together again. After 2 months of that, I put my foot down and said that if he wanted to be friends he had to leave me alone for at least 2 months. He tried to open the door a couple times in the first 2 weeks and it was met with no response and then he finally gave in and has left me alone.
Now it is past the 2 month mark and I still wonder, will he ever contact me? I don’t think he is all bad. He is just not someone I can date. Even though I told him he could contact after 2 months. I am committed to not breaking NC. I am not over it yet. It is getting easier. It might of been easier if I had closed the door fully, but I am learning a lot about myself. I know that I won’t fully be over him until I don’t care one way or the other about him and I am not there yet. So I have to stay committed to NC.
amen to that.Siena you are right. But being with a man is possible. Ive suprised myself.
xx
Superbad…. “He responded with that he appreciated my directness, was sad to say goodbye, had love how good of a communicator and listener and great date that I was, and how he loved how he could share with me.”
Translation
“I am stunned and am left with my mouth wide open that you did not put up with the crap I offered you. I AM so very sad to say goodbye cause I really thought I would get a shag out of you. I am using the word ‘love ‘ a lot and flattering you on your communication skills because I know women want to be loved (so I will use it to try to get you to change your mind), and the truth is, you really DO have good listening skills – I know because I live to be listened to. Please reconsider because I can never get women like you to f— me.”
Hehe. He did not use the word love ever, he did use the word great ;-). I do think he was surprised that I ended it. Not only did I end it, but I was not angry, I was sad and took ownership for what I was going to do, which was get hurt and pressure him.
Ha Ha! Rachael: this sounds exactly what I was thinking my last EUM ex was saying to himself when we last exchanged emails…he somehow decided that *I* had bolted too early from the relationshit (though HE was the one who ‘needed a break’) and it made HIM ‘sooo sad’. He told me in the last email how ‘wonderful’ I was, how we were ‘amazing’ together, I was the best person he had been with since his divorce, or maybe ever (seriously, this is what he said)
…but when I suggested getting together for a drink, he declined because it would be ‘too confusing’…
Yeah, confusing for whom? Clearly, he thought I wanted him back, or he had fantasies of such, or he had a girlfriend all along and just played me for a fool. My response to his ‘denial’ of a beer…”Cool. Wish you the best.” End of discussion. Oh, yeah, that felt good, let me tell you. I’m sure he was counting on me continuing the discussion, but I finally saw him for the controlling ass he really is.
Superbad and Tracy. When people are honest, there is a clarity. Mixed messages and obscurity do not instill confidence in me.
Superbad, Rachel, Tracy,
these men are typical specimens of a certain breed of an assclown. Who think so well of themselves. I think they are the most dangerous type, as they seem quite nice and fairly reasonable. But… they are not. They deserve a straight up ” Are you kidding me assclown?” or nicer ” Not for me, wish you well” with the smile. Superbad, you just dodged a bullet, in great style too!
yep, love the translation. spot on.
Superbad. Of course you did nothing wrong. The guy was an AC. My point is why go from “Hi… My name is … to are we going to be committed, in one fell swoop? IMO, it’s like having sex on the first date. I think it’s great that you found out so quickly where he was coming from. My point was the nerve of him telling you that you have to fit into his schedule. The moment that came out of his mouth you gotta wonder what makes him so busy? He was telling you that you’d be the FWB right off the bat while he went home to his wife or girlfriend. How much more insulting can it get? And then you felt bad that you maybe rushed things and let a good one get away? He was an AC. All I’m saying is recognize what has been presented to you. Why would you even have to tell him that you’re not planning to have sex so quickly? Obviously, he gave you the idea right away that that was all he wanted. So that was your cue to get a headache and “have to go home”. That astuteness on your part would have precluded and talk about sex or no sex. We can keep our antennae up without tipping our hand. He was not worth any further discussion. Just hoping you will be more mindful next time and certainly less trusting. You apparently thought you were dealing with a decent guy when in truth he was a vulture. There are just as many married and attached men out here looking for a hookup as there are single men. Probably even more. THAT’S WHY he was ready to quit you without trying to persuade you otherwise. He didn’t need to and IT WAS NOT because of a job.
Bottom line, you gave him the boot. Good for you. If you had understood the magnitude of what was going on, you would not have spent one moment being regretful. Instead you would have indignant and patting your own self on the back for being smart, and immediately detecting what was on offer.
Actually, the reason I told him was because we had been kissing so intently all over town, and knew a “come in” was coming. I wanted us not to be in the heat of things when we discussed it. He is not married, he is unavailable. I am hurt, but he was only an ass because he is on eharmony when he has limited capacity. But he probably does not think that…
I was an expert at kissing all over town!
I’ve recently realized that the most intense public displays of affection tend to correlate to a lesser degree of actual interpersonal intimacy in private.
I have had some stellar make-out sessions and yes they were fun as hell, but all of those fizzled into all kinds of assclownery. Perhaps I’ve been an idiot a/c myself in the past, but now I educated due to this site (Thank you Nat and fellow br’s), and I am living an intentional life, not a hormone driven circus.
I now am more interested in a slow burn not a hot flash!
I did not see that correlation. In fact, he admittedly shared more with me than most. But I do believe the more he shared, and the more I gave an opinion (especially on his work master plan) the more he most likely resented me. He loved how smart I am, but I was in a much more settled place. He even mentioned one of his women that he dated sold skin cream. A very nice vocation, but I am an executive. I never mentioned that, but he could tell from my ability to have a real business perspective.
Maybe he was intimidated by you? Not all men love successful women, some of them scared of them:)
Little Star – I think this is all BS. Smart women are being told that they “scare” men, uneducated women are being told that they aren’t “good enough”, housewifes are purportedly boring, working women are considered “selfish”, poor women are a “financial burden”, rich women are “intimidating” … and it goes on and on like that.
Decent guys aren’t that judgmental.
“Decent guys arent that judgemental”
Made my day. I have in the past heard the “you perhaps intimidated him” story..WHY? Because I am kind, honest, open, decent whilst also being well read,working a full-time job, not socially awkward??? When did all that become “intimidating” and gather negative media?
Truly is BS.Someone who is decent wont judge that way and will appreciate everything that you bring to the table. Man, all the BS we hear from people – Ive even had a guy tell me he doesnt think this will work because I dont listen to music…and he wasnt even a big-ass-musician!
Ive also heard “not from here, brown/from the sub-continent, too different, too quirky,might not make a good mother..” these have truly hurt me but Ive quickly realised they say heaps about the other person than it does about me. Flush! 🙂
Like, like like Purple Lilly. I’ve heard the “too intimidating” line too. B-effing-S. That line is about him, not me. I once got the too short line from a random online guy, flushed, and he came back begging for a second chance. Nope. I didn’t grow. Too late dude. It really does say more about them and superficiality. Double flush just to be sure.
PS. I’m just tall enough to get on all the rides a D-Land and that’s what is important!
Bwahahaha! Is he KIDDING ME?!What is wrong with these people? WHO thinks and says stuff like that??! Increasingly, I reckon its because of BR that I talk to people and clearly see their insecurities. They of course, spin it around and give it different faces including being mean to others. I have the greatest respect for people who accept that they are insecure and a work in progress — no BS comments and hiding it behind masks.
Im glad you know what is really important – dont let anything like this get to you hun 🙂
PurpleLily,
Yes, you are so right. These “reasons” are actually speaking of the issues of the one saying them, not you! I am happy to hear you are wrong full time, as I think the last time I saw your posts a few months ago you were still looking. Congratulations!
Oops, working full time, not wrong full time! My iPad made a weird word replacement!
Learner! How are you? I read that you are getting back with the ex? I wish you all the luck and many happy, healthy times. Please keep us posted.
Yes, back to full time work. Im working with a children’s charity with people who are passionate about the task. Its a good feeling and I hope I do a good job. Thank you for thinking about and remembering me! 🙂
I once got the criticism that “You’re TOO happy of a person and you really have your shit together.” This was a criticism! Gee, you’d think this would be a GOOD thing wouldn’t you, an attractive thing? But apparently not for this guy – it made him uncomfortable. An immediate red flag for me. If you’re happy, smart, successful, comfortable in your own skin, etc. and somebody is intimidated by this, it is THEIR problem, and they definitely aren’t the partner for you.
I’ve also heard that single/never been married/no kids women are failures. It got to me for a while, being 42 and fitting that description, but I then woke up, took stock of what my life truly is and how really good it is, and got EXTRA pissed at myself for buying into his misogynistic BS, no matter how briefly. True story…I was biking through my bus driver AC’s neighborhood one day and saw he and his girlfriend working in her backyard (note I said HER, not HIS, because he’s living in HER house). Curious, I slowed down just to observe. All I heard was him bark her name very loudly and bossy, she hunched over to where he was standing, bent over and picked up something for him that was lying at his feet. I proceeded to talk that way to her for the next five minutes. What I ‘fell for’ and the ‘reality’ of this man are two completely different things. I THANK GOD EVERYDAY that I am not his girlfriend because that could have been me, being mistreated like that. I also think God allowed me to witness that to help my healing. The AC is probably treating her like that because I kicked him to the curb and he has to take out his frustrations somewhere. I feel so very sorry for her, yet she chooses to stay with an abuser. Again, it could have been me.
Wowza! He sounds scary (and a lot like my dad) and Im glad you got away. Dodged a bullet there. I am glad you are looking after yourself and are in a place where you can heal and grow stronger. I guess God was looking after you 🙂 I hope that GF gets away soon too…seriously scary stuff.
Pink. What you said is so true and logical. If he/she is “all that” what’s all the public displays for? Because, basically, that’s all there is to look forward to in the bedroom. LOL!
“Kissing all over town” is how I ended up here. 🙁 Or 🙂
Saying NO was the best I ever did in my life.
I went through this classic scenario. Girl meets older man,they both agree on a relationship WAY TO EARLY based of a fake feeling of deep connection and too much sexual chemistry and good sex involved to think clearly.Then they fast forward together, while he (still involved but not admitting it) future fakes to the highest extend. “I want your baby, want to marry you”..
After a few months it becomes obvious that he is till involved, the “exgirlfriend” suddenly becomes the “somehow still girlfriend” that he has to “have the talk with” and he is gonna do that “very soon”. The girl, which was me, pressures him to do it. He-in the manner of an AC- starts with shady behavior and being really manipulative.
When the girl tries to opt out, he convinces her with love bombing to stay: “You are the only one for me,I could never be with anyone else,I dreamed I married you”etc.etc…
After a few more very confusing dates he finally can´t “commit” right now.Somehow the other “ex girlfriend” is still “around” but he promises that things between the new girl,me, and him will be better and that he also doesn´t know why,at some points,he feels so drawn towards her and at other he does not.
WELL, SORRY MR. ASSCLOWN, BUT..NO! At this point of time,I opted out, finally saying no thanks and going NC.
The hard thing is and that is what Natalie always calls the fallback girl: with this very dominant man (he was 16 years older then me, highly charismatic and very successful in his career)it is SO difficult to leave,once they have caught you into their web of shady interests. And somehow I guess a lot of them DO KNOW this. He for example told me again and again that I am the first woman he met in 10 years that he feels so drawn too and that he was OH SO in love with me, while at the same time he did not introduce me to his friends..(?!)..The web of shady,dark men is so difficult to escape from.
He even told me he was very much into vampirism (he was this very dark kind of man with intense sexual appearance) and later on I started to understand why. Because he WAS a vampire in the sense that he drew all energy from me and left me bleeding and completely exhausted on the floor..I felt there was something very unhealthy about him, but I could not leave!!
Well. In the end: I LEFT. And that is all that counts.
I don´t want to imagine where I would be in my personality and my relationship to myself today if I would not have found the strength to say NO to him…
Siena,
Thank goodness you have escaped from this poor excuse for a man. Your story sounds similar to mine, he is 8 years older than me. I knew mine was an MM. Same promises, though, and same shifting goal posts re: when he would be free to have a proper relationship (I.e., leave his wife). It’s all a big bunch of lies so they can have their cake and eat it too. Nice setup with more than one woman to meet their needs. And one who they can admit their dark sexual interests to. Vampirism, yup! Reading and watching hard core BDSM porn, yup! We have both said NO to this now. We are free from these vampires who sucked our energy from us. Good for you for saying NO!
Hey Learner,when did you find out this things?Did you feel like he “abused” you? I mean also in a sexual way… It is really weird, how it feels not like abuse while you are in the relationship or in my case “non-relationship”, but later on you get a very distinct feeling of ..disgust.Do you know what I mean? We had actually great sex and I really enjoyed it, at the same time I always felt like he was busting my boundaries, but I felt so “in love” that I did not recognize this right away. Later on,when the whole manipulative game unfolded in front of my eyes, this feeling of deep disgust came over me. I think it comes mostly from realizing that you trusted the wrong person which is horrible!! And leads to Natalies article about the “circle of trust”, which is so true and I really enjoyed reading.
Did anybody else read Marian Keyes’ novel “This Charming Man”? I know she’s considered rather lowbrow, but I think in this book she aptly describes the trauma bonds between several women and one personality disordered/abusive man.
I’m mentioning this here because there is one very likeable female character in the book who is being severely sexually abused by the guy… and only realizes this long after their breakup. For bystanders, this kind of abuse is often easy to recognize, but if you are right in the middle of it, not so much.
I’ve not read this one but I’ve read “The Great Man” by Kate Christensen. A similar take on things: after a reputedly great artist dies, the women (all amazing ladies) involved in his life bond with each other, and it is gradually revealed what a scum of a man he was, turns out even the paintings he was most famous for were painted by he lesbian sister.
EllyB and Teddie,
These both sound like relevant and interesting reads. They may end up on my summer reading list.
Hey Siena,
Yes, my experience was very much as you described. It all felt OK at the time as I thought I was in love with him (when I was really just anxious and replaying some childhood hurts trying to get him to love me back). Same deal – great sex, which I thought was his way of showing his feelings for me (right!). Over time, he would suggest and hint at things. Like, “I was reading about X on the internet, and I wondered if you would like to try it. I have never done that before, and I would like to think you would trust me to go along with this.” He also asked that I not judge him based on his reading and online viewing preferences. Well I let all that slide as I was chasing a feeling. After I “broke up” with him, yes, I felt disgusted.Especially since I learnt he had an OOW too. I felt like I had been used – not much more than a blow-up doll (well, a very responsive one I guess). He said he loved to please his partner, and would provide “pleasure” for hours. I figured out later that it was all about his ego. Bigging himself up since he could please a woman over and over. Yuck! I was in deep, and developed a strong trauma bond. It took me several months of NC to stop thinking about him constantly, and to stop missing what I dreamed we had together. I think he is what they call a “closet narcissist”. Yes,you are right Siena, it hurts to realize you placed your trust in the wrong person. I am finally forgiving myself for that. I hope you forgive yourself, too.
Hey Learner,
Yuuuck…I hate hearing that…this must have been really hard for you and it definitely feels in much ways like what I went through..About the OOW: How did you find out?Sometimes I really think some UMs and ACs are strange: How can he handle so many women at the same time??Isn´t that ..exhausting?? 😀 I mean,handling one person and all the problems involved with this one person is difficult enough…well, HIS problem anyway.
I had sex with the AC way too early.. In my back then crazy mind it was all ok because he was older and I did not have to play the dating game with him.I thought he was soo wise and soo grown up that it did not need this “games!! Isn´t that really ironic!! I had never had an older man before that time. My last boyfriend was younger than me, so I thought the older man surely was responsible, careful and respectful..while all he did was exploiting my body and my trust..And for this reason I gave in so easily.
I even felt really safe in the beginning, while he was telling me how beautiful I was and all those things women buy into so easily when they don´t have a very high self esteem level.
It wasn´t safe though..thats what I learned later on….
But in a way this was good as well because now I know for a fact, that NOONE is gonna approach my body, before I know this person to an extend where I feel safe enough to let them do this. While when I was younger I often gave in too easily…now I feel like this times are over for me.Sex has changed for me since all of this happened, it feels like I perceive it differently now and understand how it is connected with my emotions and perception of the person I am sleeping with.I was never as aware of this as I am today.
One question to you: What is a “trauma bond”? I have kind of heard of this, but can you describe it?
I am also trying to forgive myself and it does come with understanding more of myself and life.Still, I have only been NC for two and a half months so I still think of him every day. But I can´t describe how much the person that left him differs from the one that I am today, even though not much time has passed. I have done so much work and I am continuing, the “me” project is the most important in the world for me right now.
Siena,
I am so happy to hear you feel yourself growing and changing since you left your AC. Two and a half months NC is still early, but already you will have disengaged from him in your mind. Your heart will catch up soon. I agree its amazing these men can be involved with so many people at a time. the exMM did always complain about being exhausted, and once I knew the truth, it made sense why! To answer your questions: I found out about the OOW during a conversation I had with exMMs sister, when she asked about “the woman he goes for walks with” during our discussion of whether she thought he would ever leave his wife. Incidentally, that was exactly a year ago today that we had that talk. She told me exMM and this neighbour he went for walks with were “just friends” but when I confronted him he confessed to being her lover for over ten years! I immediately “broke up” with him, but he begged me to be friends. I was still addicted to him, and went along with the friends arrangement till the wonderful posters on BR showed me he was not my friend. I think a poster named cc told me about trauma bonding. It’s an unhealthy bond between an abuser and a victim, in which the abused person, or partner of a narcissist feel compelled to stay with the disordered person. Similar to how hostages feel towards their hostage takers – Stockholm syndrome. There is a ton of info online if you google it.
I know what you mean about feeling differently about sex after being involved with these creatures. After I broke free, it felt like my body was my own again. We never have to give these people the power over us again. We are free! All the best to you as you continue your “me” project xo
Siena and Learner, both your posts remind me of an article in a “women’s” magazine about what to do with a man sexually that he wouldn’t do with his wife. I don’t think I’m wording it right but it was, basically, how to turn a guy on so that he will want you. Yet, it’s in ways that he wouldn’t suggest to a woman he respected.
I have been reading the above and understand I fell into a trap of being addicted to him and the sex we had. He wanted to sex when we first kissed and I had to be quite forceful in telling him to wait (this was in my lunch hour!) He was going on about his ex wife and him doing it on their first date to try and push me into it – but we weren’t even on a date. When we did get together 2 days later we hardly left the hotel for two days. He also put on porn which surprised me and was talking about having anal sex. It was too much too soon and I refused to do this and it was never really mentioned again. He also alluded to what he would like to do if I was more flexible and lighter…I think he watched too much porn and it made me feel very insecure. I need to mention that prior to this person I had not had a relationship for 10 years (barring a brief abusive relationship with a mega AC) . What did silly me do? I went off and got a Brazilian as his Xmas present. Our arrangement – hard to call it a relationship when I look back now, was more focused on sex, helping him run his life and his needs. In a way it became abusive in that when I became upset or we had conflict he would want to have sex to comfort me and get me back in the present. When I was away he would want me to have cybersex and want to see me on camera – I did not feel comfortable doing this. I always wanted something that he would not/could not give me and still loved an illusion. In the end, while still telling me what I wanted to hear and stringing me along, he started a relationship with someone else. Only told me this when I was planning to go back to the country he was in and see him. Gave me the friends line as he no longer desired me and could not sleep with me out of respect to the other person!
Oh meerkat, you too, huh? S sorry to hear you we’re sucked into this mans attempt to pressure you into meeting his needs. I relate to much of it. Te feeling that too much porn affected his expectations and his opinions of you. Getting a Brazilian to please him (dang they hurt!). Him wanting to have “makeup sex” and cybersex. Check, check, check. It was all illusion, all manipulation to get HIS needs met. And suggesting friends so they don’t feel like a jerk? So typical. I hope you are NC with this man!
A Brazilian? What’s that? Please school me.
A Brazilian is when you get your pubic hair waxed off. Almost all is removed except a small strip at the front. In some cases the whole lot is taken off – where I went they took it all except a bit I held onto which looked like Charlie Chaplin’s moustache.
Thanks Meerkat. Kinda comical to me, but I’m older. Anyway, I appreciate learning something new.
Hi Tinkerbell – no probs but definitely a one off experience. I am older too but will try most things once.
What´s with these guys? The EUM I was involved with also tried to talk me into a Brazilian. He was very particular about not liking body hair and implied that he would be the best lover in the world if only I´d have a nice (as in hair-less) vagina.
I can´t believe I let myself get insecure because of some teenage porn fantasy of his! But at the moment I did speculate about the women he had been involved with, it seemed like they were all perfect sex vixens. As opposed to boring mom-of-two hairy me.
Hi Learner …Thank you, yeah I learnt the hard way and am still feeling the effects. Like many I became addicted to good sex but not the pressure or body image problems that came with it. I became obsessive with washing because he was sensitive to smell….Yes, managing to stay NC but feel sad and broken by how I allowed myself to be treated….
Meerkat,
So glad to hear you are NC with him! I think it takes some time and growth to forgive ourselves for allowing the poor, disrespectful treatment. You may feel broken now, but I am hoping that some time soon you will feel “strong in the broken places” like our bodies become stronger in the areas that have been hurt (scars and healed broken bones). A weird way to think about it maybe, but I find it helpful to imagine my heart being strong in the broken places 🙂
Hi Learner
I am trying meditation, and lots of online stuff because I am currently on my own working abroad. I make a point of staying in touch with friends etc Challenging at times but glad I am living in the hi tech age.
Rosie,
Yes, that’s quite sad isn’t it? They pretend they are just so into us that they want to explore each other and be adventurous, when really they are just using the OW to fulfill their fantasies. Not too respectful, is it? No matter how much they swear they love and respect the OW. I am soooo glad to be out of that degrading mess!
Yes! I’m so glad we’re all out of our degrading messes!
Well, I’m not sure, if a word “respect” fits somewhere in here when talking about men, who are married and still seek other women. Cause the way I see it, a man, who respects his wife, doesn’t cheat.
And certain sexual practises have little to do with “respect”, but more with madonna-whore complex.
Learner. The MM cheaters are all cut from the same cloth and have all read the same book. isn’t that right?
Hey Tinkerbell,
I agree that all cheating MMs are cut from the same cloth, but it seems some prefer darker shades of grey than others!
In the end: I LEFT. And that is all that counts.
They are a total drain, I can relate to that. Sienna, write my story. all that matters is that you say NO to them. and yes to you.
Hey girls!
I see it the way you do. I just feel so very low today because I know that we empower each other here and that it was right of us to leave and say NO.
But in the end, we all will have to work on very deep levels on ourselves because we are all wounded in a way.I never had an AC like HIM,with him I truly hit bottom, but I had a cycle of unavailable, never satisfying relationships before him that broke in a very bad way…and it makes me so sad tonight to think about them.I am doing so much work and dedicate everything I can to make a real change happen in matters of self love and self trust but sometimes it feels so overwhelming. Are you in this with me girls? Do you know this feeling too?
I broke contact with all of the man, except one single exboyfriend which became a true friend. But all the others are off my contact list..there is just one who keeps emailing which actually became a close friend over the years too but we always had this friends with benefits thing open and I just dont feel like talking to him anymore..at the same time I wonder of shutting out everybody is the right way to go… any ideas?
Siena, I do not think we have other options – we need to shut them out completely. You know what my AC 2 said to me when I met him and gave him his fist/ last chance? He said that it was my fault that it did not work out, as he was apparently *scared* of me as I was unpredictable person! One day I was with him and another day I NC-ted him for three months without any explanations! He could not get it, that he spent his Birthday, Christmas/New Year without me and treated my like a booty call and after blamed me, WTF?! It is hard to move on, very hard, but we have to push and force ourselves, it will be much better in the long run:)
siena,
you are totally right – we have to work on ourselves to find those ill patters of choosing the ones for our intimate relationships. It has worked for me (I’m doing the therapy) and now I clearly see how I used to keep saying yes to the wrong men instead of flushing them immediately as they would not treat me with respect. So I’d say shut down those men that you feel you need to, if it helps your healing. And girl, thats a difficult thing to do, after you see that everything you ever had has actually never brought you even close to what you really want.But taking it from another point – when you acknowledge your flaws, mistakes and all, its much easier to get to the point when you’re actually able to change your self-depreciating ways of behaviour.
Thank you for writing this article and having this site accessible to most people. I just made it to 5 months today of not contacting the ex. And does he miss me? Most likely not. I haven’t heard a peep from him since the ending of the 2 year relationship including the mistake of reuniting 1 month after the breakup via his instigation and the assclown hadn’t changed and the reasons for the breakup were still there. And he feigned interest in wanting to fix things. I asked “why did you really ask me over; why am I here tonite?” and he replied because “I love you” as he gazed motionlessly straight ahead towards the TV when I was sitting right beside him! Talk about insincerity. What a ducking emotionally crippled robot! And this was coming from someone who earlier that evening after dinner at a dive bar was introducing me to others as “my friend so and so” and Natalie’s previous blog about Screwed Over Friendships hit a sore note. I now realize what he means by calling me “friend” in the context of being on a date during a date nite with someone (especially of the opposite sex) that you have agreed to be monogamous with and of whom you’ve been seeing well over a year and half and boinking/bumping uglies for over 6 months that the introduction of being referred to as “friend” screams casual relationship. And there is nothing casual about being intimate with another person in the bedroom. The term casual relationship in reference to sexual relationship is an oxymoron. Sex does not equal the casualness of shaking hands many times over. He was so careless. I had to learn the hard way in my recent first serious relationship where I gave myself to him thinking he (being 37 years old and more experienced) was the one at just shy of 30 years old to only be duped by a lying, cheating, abusive (physically and emotionally) person who is nothing other than a bad person all the way to his core. The reason why I stayed with him past the relationshit expiration date and why did I go back to him a few times on/off before the final bang? The Stockholm syndrome where you have developed attachment to your abuser you shared abusive experience(s) with while under duress. A notable example of one of my abusive experiences with the abuser assclown was one night when I saw the other woman texting “going off”/blowing up on his phone while he was in the bathroom. Immediately when he came out I demanded he show me the text, he refused trying to BS me that it was his guy friend and I was like NO the other text, and then he forcefully pushed me towards the bed as I stumbled and despite me physically trying to resist him he sexually pushed himself in me and hit me in the face. That isn’t love. That’s disgusting gross display of abusive power/control/physical dominance. [name removed by Natalie in line with the t&C’s that prohibits publication of the identities of those you refer to] Assclown you are a piece of shit. Consequences…the little things.
Hey KM….the story you told here about your bedroom experience… Well,it really hit me because I had similar experiences!!There were a few scenes happening that should NEVER happen between two people and that were only about showing control.I also found out the hard way that this isn´t love. It really stabilizes the bond to the abuser though,I don´t know why but there are surely a lot of psychological reasons for that. The worse he got me,the more I longed for him. Till finally I got to my senses,thinking: THIS.IS.NOT.HEALTHY.
Though having said this KM,I also got the kind of feeling when reading your post that it might be time to let go of your anger,otherwise the Assclown takes a part in your life that he definitely does not deserve- but a great, caring partner does deserve this place in your life. All the best to yoU!!
KM, your post should be mandatory reading on women’s 18th birthdays.
Christ how does it come to that? It can, though. It can and it will. I recognise this behaviour and there’s not a single courtroom anywhere on this planet that would punish a man who did that to any one of you.
Ladies, we’ve got to recognise we’re on our own with this. No one will look out for us, no one will take care of us. This is why learning about the behaviours of these men, and the symptoms of the behaviours, is no fucking joke. Red flags are NOT funny.
Whether you believe in a maker or are an evolutionist through and through, you might conclude this is why women were given, or developed, the gift of intuition. It’s all about female survival and making the right choice when it comes to allowing a physically stronger man into our proximity for more than just light conversation. This is why we have a very particular feel for ‘gut’, we detect vibes, we sense nuances, we pick up on invisible changes in the air, we smell the wrong kind of testosterone like a drop of blood in the ocean, we’re virtually supernatural mentally and emotionally, compared to men. Men have absolutely zero sixth sense at all, and I mean less than zero. But they know women have some kind of ability to see right through them when we want to and are able. And that’s pretty decimating to the male ego, probably scuppering the chances for many of them to have any kind of sexual encounter with a female for the whole of their lives. So what do they do, when they want to find women on the cheap that they can use like garbage? They gather in pretty much all the kinds of environments that confuse women and decommission their sixth senses: bars that are dark, lit with ‘fun’ disorienting lights, very noisy, crowded and full of alcohol; parties which are the same; online where they can hide behind a wall of bits and bytes; or anywhere (work/school/home) they have the power and control in the relationship and issue all the orders. This is why it’s all good and fine just meeting men in these places, but we need to give ourselves the opportunity to get them into a space where we can look right through them and examine their vibes without disruption or distraction, and to have the sense to get rid of them immediately if we don’t like what’s inside.
So many of these assclowns and personality-disordered men would have been rejected by us long before they ever laid a finger on us if we’d only trusted our ‘guts’ and credited our intuition rather than poo-poohed our inner voice and smothered it with the stupid ‘mansplainations’ we were hearing.
Word. Right on as usual Griz.
Griz:
Thanks for spelling it out for us. What you write is true and scary.
KM,
“he forcefully pushed me towards the bed as I stumbled and despite me physically trying to resist him he sexually pushed himself in me and hit me in the face”
Read this again and again and again. I want to cry for you!!! You must still be in shock and feel traumatized. That’s the only reason I can think of as to why it seems you aren’t recognizing the seriousness of his CRIME. This is very serious, KM! Did you see a doctor after he raped you? Did you go to the police?
I’m sorry for my insensitivity. But this is serious. He needs to go to jail!
KM, oh GOD, poor you, what a disgusting monster you were dating! You had a lucky escape…Well done for not contacting your ex for 5 months, keep strong, we are here for you x
I really struggled with saying no. When the ex first started witholding sex, I assumed that was the end of it, he just didn’t fancy me any more. I did think it was odd as he had been so desparate for me and so fast forwarding/future faking and the sex had been great. I guess I thought he just was just a player who had shagged me for a couple of months and wanted to move on.
I was hurt but I thought I knew what had happened. However, he kept me hooked in by insisting that this was a physical issue he had and that he still really wanted to be inmvolved in a relationship with me. I felt it would be really mean of me to dump him just because we couldn’t have sex and he kept saying he was sure he would get his sex drive back. It had honestly never occurred to me that men wanted to have women hanging around for ego strokes/attention etc without the sex. So I hung around a couple of months more but I felt more and more rejected, more and more ugly/fat/unfanciable and my self esteem was through the floor.
I ended it so many times and he kept getting me back on board, but with the help of you BR ladies I have been NC for 6 months despite a few early hoovers from him.
I will never know what the hell was going on in his mind and what his game really was. He swore over and over that there was nobody else and he was travelling long distances to see me without getting sex, and calling me every day. No point in wondering though is there, because the bottom line is, my needs were not being met and his behaviour/problems/whateverthefuckitwas made me feel increasingly anxious and bad about myself.
Tx Natalie and Tabitha —
Reading this site for a year and it’s helped in so many ways. Nat’s advice navigates me through times when I am unsure what is happening–that alone, I have learned from her, is a red flag. For me, not knowing what is going on leads directly to the anxiety and the bad feelings mentioned. I can deal with ambiguity, but not when acid is pouring into to my gut: a sure sign!
I’ve just stopped a very brief relationship with a 60-year old divorced man who showed himself to obsessed with his 19-year old daughter. She refuses to finish school, refuses to work, and drains him financially & emotionally. I listened to this while the acid was doing it’s thing in my gut.
Last week, before a walk, he insisted on reading all her texts (which can number up to 20 a day) to ‘be sure she hasn’t been in an accident and needs me.’ I said tx all the same, gotta go: I realized from reading this site it was just another rendition of the Other Woman.
Today I am looking at what that very brief relationship tells me about myself–still feeling not worthy of being first priority. At least this time I walked. Progress!
Thank you for this great article, Natalie. This is exactly what I needed!
I recently dated a great man with whom I had incredible sexual chemistry. We spent hours talking and laughing and marveling at how many things we had in common.
Then I found out he was doing drugs, and lying to me about it.
I left him immediately.
As I drove away with tears rolling down my face, I literally repeated the Baggage Reclaim mantra in my head: “It doesn’t matter how sexy/funny/intelligent he is if he doesn’t treat me with love, care, trust and respect.”
Good on ya!
Spiral – I have been in a similar situation recently, too. My friend is a drinker. Great guy, smart and considerate … until he drinks. When he drinks, he just does and says silly things and I know that if he took a second to even think about what he was about to do, that he wouldn’t behave that way. But alcohol dulls the brain…
At the end of the day, I don’t want to deal with someone who can’t (or chooses not to) drink at a moderate level.
Thank you Tinkerbell, for sharing your feedback and concern. Yes it was the same doctor that prescribed the meds. I started with a low dose of Ambien which helped me fall asleep but I kept waking up in the middle of the night, my heart still aching. So he upped the dosage, which yielded the same result. Still waking in the middle of the night …heart aching. Thoughts of him and the lies he told filling my head…praying for strength, courage, protection and SLEEP. The xanax us taken as needed…when I feel a meltdown coming on but has not been a daily necessity.
Sanntay. I am happy and relieved that you checked back and saw my posts to you. Your story (and Superbad’s) hit me very hard. But dealing with YOU. I don’t usually ponder as long as I did, go do other things, still thinking about your story and return to my computer to post several separate times. Frequently, I will post my concerns and the person either was not concerned enough her/himself to return and check feedback or if they have there is no response posted. Thank you for responding. I do wish, however, that you had addressed some of my many concerns for your welfare with some indications of your intent. Of course, you have the right to, or not do so. Are you feeling any better? Are you going to take any steps to either free yourself from this fiasco or, at least take control of the issuea surrounding your dilemna and handle them in an effectively heightened manner of self control mentally emotionally and physically. The meds are only a bandaid. I, myself, have never taken Ambien, but have had extended experience with Xanax daily as needed and Prozac daily. As a result, a large block of time in my life has been permanently erased from my memory. They are situations that include positive family contacts and events that I would like to be able to remember. Also, I am obviously, a health care professional and have quite a bit of knowledge about meds. But a more important concern for YOU should be what are YOU going to do? Your situation with this coworker has damaged your psyche extensively enough for you to take desperate, unsafe measures to get through each day. You may not wish to share your intentions any further, but, as one who cares I really hope you find solutions that will enable you to exist with much more personal safety and peace. All the best. End of, Tink.
Wiser: thank you so much for your encouragement. I have been beating myself up about this for far too long and I’m tired if wasting my tears and feeling blue. I want to be free if these feelings so badly but it’s just not happening as quickly as I’d like. How were you able to make it through?
I prayed a lot and my trust in God was/is crucial. I meditated, read supportive books and said tons of affirmations. I made a huge effort to treat myself as I would a small child who is hurt and afraid and needs a lot of comfort. Most of all, I made understanding myself the prime goal, NOT getting rid of the pain. If you rush through the process too quickly, it won’t really help you in the end.
The more you can forgive and love yourself, the stronger you are – and the stronger you are, the more willing you are to sit there with your pain and see what it has to teach you. Of course, you’re only one month in and so yes, everything feels like hell. Realizing you’ve been used and humiliated makes it worse! The tendency is to blame yourself – “How could I have been so damn stupid?!” The anger wells up and it has to go somewhere – usually we turn it against ourselves. The terrible irony is that we often end up hurting ourselves far worse than these idiot men do. Which is why focusing on self-forgiveness and compassion is SO important.
I know it’s impossible to say right now “Gee, pain is such a great teacher!” But if you hang in there, you will get to that point, I promise.
Super bad: He was in construction and about 6 years younger than the guy you described but the similarities made me curious.
I thought of this post yesterday, after I took my car in for an oil change. I had been there one time before, to this place whose specialty service is oil changes, but who also provide other services as well. As I was talking to the guy who was recording my mileage, etc., he said to me, consulting his computer, “I see you’re due for a radiator flush and brake (something or other, I forget).” Knowing that I had only ever gotten an oil change at this place, I responded immediately and dispassionately, “I haven’t had those services performed here before.” He smiled (a “you got me” smile) and immediately moved on to the next line of business.
Now, I don’t know how it is ’round the world, but in the US, it’s common knowledge that auto shops, in all of their various forms, will “pad” their services when you come in for something simple. Especially with women. You come in for an oil change, they try to sell you a new transmission. So you gotta be on your toes. But the major point here is that my response (in essence, my “no”) wasn’t angry or emotional at all. I was literally harkening back in my brain to the last time I was at this shop, to make sure that I hadn’t had any of these services performed there before. I hadn’t, and so logic dictates, “How the eff could this dude know WHEN I’m due for WHAT without popping the hood and/or having previous experience with my car??” So I checked in with the logic center of my brain (thankfully, I use that portion A LOT these days), found his statement faulty, and then said an immediate and clear “No.” I didn’t get all up in his grill or anything, I just waved it off. And the guy knew what was up right away. I doubt he was sitting there thinking about how to personally eff with me. His thought (based on his facial expression and the “you got us” smile) was probably, “Here’s one who knows the drill and won’t fall for it.” And we moved on.
Ladies, this is EXACTLY what happens in our interactions with ACs. Except we don’t even get a freakin’ oil change or car wash out of it. Sheesh.
Rev. I gotcha. Spot on, girl. I love it. Soooo true.
Glad you understand, Tink. These guys need to learn not to eff with a woman in a Mustang. 😉
Well…to add to this analogy, Revolution…you knew this guy was trying to screw with you, you called him out on it, he acknowledged with his facial expression and body language…and yet…you stayed…for your oil change from an untrustworthy source. (Sorry, couldn’t resist. I get your point, though, and it’s a good point. 🙂 )
Gotcha Rosie. But that’s why I got an itemized list and saw that the price on the billboard matched my receipt, a price that is standard for an oil change in the US. Damn, I wish these ACs came with an itemized list. Now that I would NOT buy.
@superbad
As Nat says. Dating is just an exploratory matter. You found out that he doesn’t meet you standards. Or he might have also been exploring to see if you were a match. It was only a month and we should not go into a one month relationship unguarded and ready for a long term commitment. The longer the relationship the more they progress and tell you what they want with you then you can start to adjust. I would look at it as. Hey it was fun while it lasted but he’s not really what I need in my life. The one for you… He’s out there
I was guarded, hence the no sleeping with rule.thanks!
I love this post!
A guy I dated for a few months told me that he didn’t see a future for us beyond what we had. He implied that he was open to casually dating. Some part of me felt insulted but the other part wanted to laugh. My rule is that if I am going to engage in that kind of relationship, I would have to have an awesome compatibility in the bedroom. We didn’t have that with this guy but it wasn’t a deal breaker for me as I considered him a potential long-term material and was willing to have a talk about it and work on it once we become exclusive and more serious.
It didn’t take me a second to decline his offer.True I was attracted to him and was very sad/still am after the breakup. I sometimes hope that he would call me and tell me he was wrong and would like to continue dating to get to know each other better. (I am not sure a 100% that I would agree but still.)
But not even once did I regret not agreeing to casually dating him.I think I can do better than that!
I am so proud of myself!
Thank God, Liyou, your boundaries were intact! You have every reason to be proud of yourself. I only wish I had found BR sooner, I could have avoided so many mistakes. Happily, I am NC now for over 5 months. In future I will turn down those kind of insulting offers. Good for you! I learned a lot from your comment!
you should be proud of yourself you absolutely did the right thing those kind of relationships never work out well for the woman it is selfish move on his part and it shows the person who is most interested in pleasing and thats himself exactly the kind of guy to stay away from
Another great post! I thought I’d digress and talk about something that has been on my mind today that may be helpful to some. I broke up with my ex 2 months ago via NC as he was verbally and emotionally abusive, he was severly addicted to drugs and I will be honest and say that I spent every weekend with him (we lived apart) and I started using too. In my mind I was joining in having fun and complying with the way he lived his life, accepting that behaviour into my own. I had no back-bone, no self-respect and clearly a low self esteem. Now fast forward two months of NC, reading a lot of BR and starting to deal with the layers of my personal and internal issues i.e. why i accepted this treatment from a man, what this showed I felt about myself, where I learned these behaviours from, peeling back layer by layer to address the torn and non-existant relationship I have with my mother, who I have been NC-ing for close to 6 months now despite her many attempts through extended relatives to get a reaction out of me. I know, within myself that SO FAR, I have done very very well. I am proud of myself.
With my newfound self-respect and lack of tolerance of bs, I have had two men who have been interested in me. One i went on a date with, well , I say date, but he invited me over a few times and I longed him off until I agreed to go over one evening to “chill and watch movies”. When I got there he was cold, distant and treated me like we were strangers, he showed no interest in me and when we sat watching a movie, he turned his back to me and started falling asleep! The old me would have made excuses for him in my head and stayed…believe me ladies, once I felt that chill coming from his attitude, I told him I was leaving, after barely being there an hour. I looked after MYSELF. I put ME first. The next day he texted me saying he thought I was going to stay round and he wanted to hang out..my response “sorry but i wont be hanging out or keeping your number,take care :)” and that was that. The old me would be second guessing herself and thinking the “what-if” im wrong, distrusting my own judgement. That is not me now.
Another man who is a friend of a friend also showed me interest and sent me a lot of flirtacious texts. We arranged to meet on a particular day and when that day arrived, he did not call or text to confirm. I ended up texting him to ask what happened and he said he had forgotten he was helping a friend move…I am human, I have compassion, so FAIR enough that it is possible to forget that you had made a promise to a friend, but to not call or text me earlier to let me know?! I let that one slide and a week later, something similar happened when we were meant to meet. The old me would have taken it, but not me now. He also promptly received a text from me saying “you’re not worth this.I will not be keeping your number. Later!” And that was that. I no longer feel a sense of self-doubt when I make such decisions. Sometimes a flush is a flush.
I am one person who has always feared being alone, but I am facing and addressing those fears on a daily basis..challenging my old beliefs as I go along. One thing that hit me as I was walking home from a friends house today is…I need to start DATING MYSELF! I should embrace myself, give myself hugs, kisses and plenty love, as I would if I had a relationship with a man. I need to spend time with myself. SO…in summary, I just got back from the cinema, I went to watch Iron Man 3, all alone and I LOVED EVERY MINUTE!! It feels so good to do those things I would usually only do when I had a man,alone. I’m actually looking forward to planning my next date with myself 🙂
So to those who have read my looong post (thank you)….my advice to anyone struggling to learn to love themselves….start by dating yourself 🙂 You’ll be surprised by how much you can start to fall in love with who you are. xxx
Congratulations to the NEW YOU, Pax. It is so refreshing to hear a good story once in awhile. Keep learning. Stay with us on BR.
Thanks for the comment Tink. I don’t think I will ever leave BR, it seems to be a new extension of self. When I am losing focus and need some tough love…this is where I come.I never had a mother who taught me these things in a loving way. I am glad to have BR. Sounds so soppy, but it’s true.Natalie is doing a great service to our self-esteems and souls by telling us a lot of “home-truths”.
Let’s all stick together through good and bad. 🙂
Pax
You have come a long way.
I agree with you, take yourself out, you don’t need an escort and you might meet someone along the way.
I spent a lot of time trying to arrange things with people who were genuinely busy with husbands, kids,parents work etc.It makes you feel like sh*t.If you join classes,solo holidays,support groups, you will be with people with the same needs as you.They want to be out and they are free to be out.
I also take myself out occasionally too.There comes a time when you have to put yourself first regardless of what anyone else thinks.
This is awesome, pax! 🙂 Thank you so much for sharing your positive story! I needed this today. 🙂
glad to be of service 🙂
I agree this is awesome! This also seems to confirm my point that we can weed out most losers quickly… if only we pay attention.
If we stay involved with a toxic guy for an extended time, it is often because we stubbornly ignore red flags such as disrespectful behavior, him being attached, him being addicted to something, blowing hot and cold, future faking, him not being over his ex, manipulative behaviors and so on. Most of those surface early on. This is because they want to test our boundaries in order to figure out whether we are “worth their effort” or not (read: whether they would be able to take advantage of us in the future).
Of course, there are also some (often personality disordered) ACs who are able and willing to keep up their masks for months or even for a year. This is why we shouldn’t make any “big” decisions (such as moving, marrying, children, buying property or the like) during the first year.
I think the hardest part is continuously having to say no. It exhausts me!
Last night I got woken up at 3am by a phone call from the ex-AC. I’ve been NC for almost 5 months, but I saw his number and I picked up. Thankfully, he put the phone down as soon as I said hello.
Then he send me a text:
“Hey. It’s [his name] on +[his number]. Basically, and there’s no easy way of saying this, but, I still have the same feelings I did for you all that long time ago. Quite badly infact. I know I was a bad boyfriend and I know we cannot be together now because of me but I think about you and I still love you so so much. I’m so sorry for what happened because I realise now – way too late – that you’re the perfect girl. I hope you’re happy if you’re in a new relationship – and I’m still thinking of you baby – no-one can replace you. From [his name]. X”
I always find hard to say no to him, but if he continuously keeps trying, I just feel guilty! This guy is making the effort – finally – and I keep rebuffing it?
I think he’s finally showing remorse. But I don’t know whether I’m up for another “suck it and see” episode..
Wish, please do not do it!!! My current AC did the same and I gave him a chance, he did not changed, all the same crap. Please do not repeat my mistake!
Little Star,
As tempted as I was, I have had the chance to sleep on it and even though I still miss him at times and feel lonely, I have realised that you’re totally right. Things I thought about:
1. He contacted me at 3am on Friday night. I think he was probably drunk anyway as he spends 90percent of the nights drunk. So it invalidates any remorse he had – it was the alcohol speaking.
2. IF he is feeling remorse it is only out of desperation and not because he actually wants me. I think he’s just run out of girls who will give him a chance now. So he thinks it’s time to get back to what he had with me – I put up with so much of his crap!
3. He says “bad boyfriend” as if it was a minor thing! He cheated. I gave him another chance. He did it again. I told him to prove his love. He didn’t bother – he just went off with other girls.
4. If I was really in a new relationship would my new bf be happy about my ex texting me such things!? He’s selfish and inconsiderate.
I’m not replying and I probably won’t hear from him again (although that’s what I always tell myself every time I hear from him).
Wish: I’m afraid this is what all those guys do. This is why we need to go complete NC.
It is pointless to hope that they would stop contacting us simply because WE want them to. Why should they? It would rob them of the option to “check back in” with us whenever they want to.
If you want peace (and I think you need and deserve it) block him everywhere and change your phone number if need be.
And btw, “making an effort”? As I understand, all he did was to copy and paste some lines from the popular “assclownery for beginners” manual and sent them to you. Yeah, if we’re used their crumbs then even this BS might look like a loaf, but it’s still crumbs.
Sorry to be so blunt, but we have all been there.
And Elly, I don’t mind you being blunt because that’s a godsend in my situation. That’s why I come to this site.
You’re right too. He’s not making an effort. He hasn’t apologised in person even! He’s just sent a text which is identical to many previous texts! Nothing new there at all.
He’s just making more of an “effort” than I am though.
I guess I just thought that considering he thinks I’ve moved on and that I haven’t replied to his previous messages – I’m done. But I was deluded enough to think ACs can take a hint.
I did block him, but on a blackberry, it stops his calls from going through but I can still see he called. Same with texts – they don’t go into my message inbox, but I can still see them in the “blocked texts” section.
As to changing my number – I have no idea of the number of people/firms which actually have that and I want to reachable by all the those people.
I will change my number once the contract runs out this september anyway.
But I HAVE blocked him from Facebook as I was fed up of seeing photos of him all over other girls and the number of topless photos he managed to put up in the middle of winter is incredible.
Could you put your phone on “silent” at night so at least the AC doesn’t disturb you? I had to do that for some guy who wouldn’t go away once. I use my cell as an alarm clock and that’s unaffected.
NoMo, ofcourse I might have to. Because once I woke up to HIS calls, I couldn’t sleep at all and walked around like a zombie the entire next day.
Need some boundaries in place regarding people contacting me at a decent hour.
@Wish,
My ex sent me a similar email months after we broke up. I didn’t respond, because i thought, mmm has he done any work to deal with his anger issues, he basically broke up with me every time he got triggered, then later regretted it. ANyways, I ran into him half a year later and addressed hos email. he said he meant it and that he loved me at that time. After a further conversation, I brought up his anger and he mentioned that I was th eonly one who made him angry. Red flag, I told him maybe that’s becasue he cared about me. His anger stuff is due to unprocessed trauma from childhood, I know this, he doesn’t. Anyways, after he said i made him angry (meaning he won’t take repsonsibility for his anger issues) I ended the meet up and haven;t heard from him since (3 months ago). I wouldn’t take this email seriously, he might just be lonely, and if he hasn’t dealt with whatever his part of the BU was, then , what’s the point, same shit different time.
Chloe, just wow. YOU made him angry!? This guy sounds like a total jerk. And with him, his AC behaviour was cheating and then apologising, then cheating again, all the while when he kept telling me he was so in love with me.
I don’t think he’s necessarily changed, but simply that he is running out of Fallback girls and thought he’d try the original (i.e. me) again.
But you summed it up: “same shit. Different time.”
Oh crap! I am in a sex only arrangement with someone who is attached. We see each other whenever he flies into town. He’s a chopper pilot with his own business. The problem for me now is that in the beginning i said i didn’t want a relationship that i was in the middle of a divorce and wasn’t ready. Now i find myself really liking him alot and wanting to see him more. Trying not to binge think and second guess what is going on in his mind. He is incredible in the sack. I haven’t had sex like this in about 20 yrs!
Like you said you have to take care of you. Furthermore, this person seems creepy to me. I would not feel comfortable trying to have any relationship with him. He’ll find someone else just like he found you. Flush!
All I can say is that he has issues big time and meeting him through a friend (a fellow alumna at one of the universities I attended) allowed me to lower my guard. And I ignored the red flag that he was a substance abuser as it did not become apparent until later into the relationship that he was a pothead who borders on drinking too much. He refrained from smoking in front of me for the most part on his own accord. What women must know is that obviously domestic violence crosses cultural, demographic, educational and socioeconomic barriers. It didn’t matter that he has an MBA or was a former basketball jock or that he appears to come from a decent family. Point is the assclown is and was a screw-up and ruins everything and has the sense of entitlement of a sociopath. What is worse is that he is a relationship terrorist preying on vulnerable women. And I will not negotiate with the Assclown abuser master manipulator. And it sounds like y’all realize as I now do as to what really happened to me in that abusive incidence as I described above…and when something like that is happening to you with the man you trusted and have been with awhile (it was going on a year at that time that that happened) it is hard to realize what just happened when you’re in the thick of it. And looking back I know that even though he and I were already intimate in the relationship does not give him the right to physically push me over like an over-grown caveman and force himself on me in a dominant and violent way when its obvious my arms are out trying to push him away as I tell him to stop and what else could I do but give-in and give-up then and there? I suppose making like Mike Tyson and trying to bite his ear off may have been a valid defense. However my assclown abuser was a cage fighter in the past and knows how to fight (which makes this all even worse that he would take hits at a woman)and if he had no problem hitting me a woman in the face whose to say he wouldn’t go off and beat me to death? He just wanted what he wanted and acted like he owned me and my body and hit me to instill fear of standing up for myself against him. He is 6’3″ and built and I am only 5’8″ and slim. There is such a disparity in who is naturally more physically dominant that he can not be considered a real man for hitting a woman. There is no excuse for hitting or forcing himself on a defenseless person. He disregarded me and disrespected my rights. Looking back one may call the incident described as rape. Talking about pressing charges at the time is another discussion all together. If you are not knowledgable about the different situations where rape can happen it may leave you ignorant to the fact of if or when rape does happen to you, leaving you helpless to taking a stand against the perpetrator. Most times rape happens by someone you know whether an acquaintance or a date or even in a so-called committed relationship. Oprah once had a show about domestic violence sexual abuse in married relationships. Yes as women we need to use our instinct when it comes to choosing a man as a potential romantic partner and more. Red Flags are nothing to brush off or ignore. And do not allow yourself to be love blind in a relationship with the idealized concept of what could be more than the actual relationship you are in yourself.
I closed the door to no longer be manipulated by an abusive person who spews mind effery; uses underhanded tactics such as gaslighting and stonewalling, as a means to actively prevent communication in effect sabatouging the relationship, with classic one liners such as “I don’t know what you’re talking about” when caught red-handed, for starters. And worse yet the onslaught of physical and sexual violence distorts the view of what a loving romantic sexual encounter looks like and screws you over for an indefinite period of time. I am still angry and prey that he has health and happiness which is a long shot as he must need much therapy to reform and get help with his issues. Hopefully I can progress to fully healing after having a very bad first experience at my age to the fact of being a late-bloomer. They say 30s is the new 20s after all. And as Angelina Jolie’s tattoo is scribed “Know Your Rights” take that to heart.
KM,
I am very sad for you, that you were abused in this very physical, personal way. It seems that you have learned and grown and have excellent insight into the situation, which shows your strength. Thank you for sharing your experiences so that others can learn. “Know your rights” is right! All the best to you xo
Hi everyone. Here’s my story which I’ll divide in 3 parts (pre, during and after marriage. Will try to summarise, forgive my English, it isn’t even my 3rd language.
-pre marriage:
We met on the internet and married in about a year. Just before we engaged I discovered he actually divorced twice, not once as he had said. He apologized and said he did not think it was that important since it was long time ago. I also realized he had more than two children. He apologized saying he only spoke about 2 because others were not living with him anymore so he thought it didn’t matter. All my senses told me to end it then but his tears (the mam knew how to cry), and endless apologies made me stay. He used words like “I worship the ground you walk on.” My country is very dusty:). He asked for phone numbers of at least 3 friends who he can call, just in case he doesn’t get me and don’t know what has happened. I’d talk to him at the minimum and minimum of 4 hrs a day, most of the time for longer than that. He’d ask me what time I go to bed then call at that time for at least 2 hrs, then mid of the night for at least an hr or two and would ask what time I wake up and would call me at 5 or 6am and stay on the phone only to give me break to have a shower, but will dress and have breakfast with phone on speaker. If he didn’t get me (sometimes I’d mute my phone or switch it off so I can sleep or I’d be working) i’d find a minimum of more than 10 missed calls, texts, emails and he’d call friends. He’d have a jealous tantrum on the phone, questioning where i was, sometimes he’d cry how he thought something happened to me. If I told him I was going out with friends, he’d call me and more than half my time would be spent on the phone with him. I believed he was so in love that he couldnt help it, and it didnt help that my friends thought the same. Alongside that he was charming, presented as respectful of me, my family,supportive of my job and carer, and soo in love, and we had amazing time a couple of times that he came over before we married. He said his family couldn’t wait to see me. My dad managed to see beyond what I saw and had his reservations about him which he communicated to me. Although in my culture your parents can say no if they don’t think someone suits you, my dad isn’t that traditional and he respected my decision. I’ll post this through to avoid typing too much then it dissapears.
-during marriage
moved to his country after a year and half (hesitation around my job, my family and whether I should trust him.). He gave me ultimatum, job or marriage, I chose the latter and resigned. One time he suggested to run away with his young children (8 and 10 yr old), and relocate to my country. I explained to him how it was wrong, cruel and not in the best interest of the children. He ended the marriage on the phone once because I refused to give him password s to my emails. I rang back begging and crying for forgiveness and gave him my password. He ended it again after finding a long time email (in my inbox) of an ex boyfriend who I was with before we met. He was a great guy and we had ideal breakup where he got someone and I got someone and we wished each other the best. The email was a bit graphic but was before I met him. Again I apologised and begged to be taken. He started to be suspicious about any male acquintances. When I went for a visit before moving permanently we did not visit any of his family members. He was evasive about the topic, in the end he admitted not having spoken to his mum for over 20 years snd nit in good terms with his brother and sisters. I understand people can be in this situation through no fault on their part, but the issue here is why did he lie about it all along. We did not visit or invite any friends over. His reasons, his ex wife slept with most of them and he lost interest. After I moved in permanently, straight away I became a step mom to his children (separate story) I loved them and still miss them. He was unavailable dad and husband, worked mon to Sunday. Didn’t want me to make friends coz his ex wife used that as an excuse to sleep around (all lies).His response to me asking to join the gym? “Is it so you can sleep with your instructors? Because that’s what exwife used to do.” He said he doesn’t need a friend only me and if I really do love him I’d feel the same. He would inspect my private parts (with eyes and fingers) and accuse me of having slept with other men. Then after finishing that proceeded to force sex with me in a disrespectf way. Then would refuse to sleep with me after that, due to being disgusted. To prove him wrong so he’d trust me I’d stick with him all the time for dsys and morning and afternoon show him my vagina to prove that women have discharge even without sex (apparently he didn’t know and never seen vaginal discharge before..moron!). At one stage i went to my country for a visit. When I came back, he had drawn in my diary, pictures of women with arrows shooting between their legs and written “fucking someone” in all the dates that i said i was meeting friends. I stayed with this man for 5 years…. Sorry guys, I need a break, i will continue a bit later.
THIS IDIOT….has abused you for 5 years severely. I cannot begin to imagine the fear and frustration you lived in. I hope and pray you have NC this fool and you start to rebuild your self-worth. My dear, NOONE has the right to treat you like an animal. NOONE!!! This poor excuse for a man needs to be jailed in guatemala. I am appalled that we walk amongst apes. Stay strong. You deserve way more. Love yourself. x
When I finally said no and cut ties with my ex, she constant ridiculed my decision and she tried her hardest to play the victim but couldn’t figure out how bad she treated me even when I told her. So even though I’m single now, I don’t have the constant pressure and lack of self-respect that I had by not setting proper boundaries.
539
AFRO K. You cannot, (I repeat) you are UNABLE TO, have a satisfactory relationship, much less one containing, love, care, trust and respect with a MENTALLY ILL MONSTER. Please tell us you’ve NC’d him, FOREVER.
There are so many things that lead us to the decisions we make. At the moment I am grappling with a colleagues suicide and we have all been left wondering how we could have done more…anything more to change this horrific and tragic ending.what signs were we missing?
I heard today from an old friend who I know works with the ex. He has struggled to move on after he seperated from his wife awhile ago. I tried to be there for him awhile ago when he was going through the thick of itwith his wife but just could not handle the updates he kept giving me in regards to the ex. I said as much and also that if we were going to be friends that I would appreciate if he didn’t bring him up at all. After I realised I was just at a standstill with actually getting my act together and moving the bloody hell on, I told him I couldn’t be his friend, it was just too painful.
I get a message from him months later regarding some really old stuff of mine even I had forgot I had that the ex would have given him to give to me. I was furious. I told him as much. What kind of mind effery are they both playing at? Anyway after that Havent heard from him for months but today I get a message seeing if I’d like to reconsider being friends as he is so alone. What?!
And after the recent death at work I find myself considering it. Because I feel deep down we have a responsibility to make sure our fellow man is ok don’t we? And then I think that I’m not doing this, everyone is responsible for themselves and I really really have to start looking after me. I don’t know what to do. I know what is right for me. But it just feels cruel, especially in light of what’s happened recently at work…
Any suggestions or advice ladies?
Iwaslost, don’t be friends with this person. Trust your gut/intuition! You have to believe in your ability to do what is best for you.
Hi iwaslost
I know what you mean. I knew someone who killed themselves 20 years ago and I know that it did affect how I dealt with people – I didn’t like to be cruel or reject, yeah and I went a little too far the other way, accepting everything, thinking, maybe this could be the thing that pushes this person over the edge.
It’s quite a dilemma I know, but I don’t trust this situation. Does he mean alone as in no woman to confide in (suspect this is the case) or no friends? To me, if he is working and has friends, he is ok, or has the means by which to be ok. I think it’s simply the loneliness a lot of us feel, with no partner, and even with (we’re all alone after all), and you don’t and can’t hold the key to his salvation in that regard.
Sometimes the kindest thing is to let people learn their own painful lessons. Being alone is something everybody has to come to terms with, and you can’t “save” them from that. You can wish this guy well from afar and think of him with kindness, but you have no obligation to have contact with him if it’s causing you pain.
Thanks Melissa, Fifi and Wiser. I was a person with pretty much no boundaries before the ex. Sometimes it still feels foreign to me, saying no to people. Other days it is easy. I worry for this particular friend as I know he is a bit of a loner and he lives in a remote area, compounding the loneliness. But you are right FiFi, he would have friends at work. Also I dont feel like I can trust him due to my past dealings with him telling me all about the ex despite me asking him not to. I just dont even want that dialogue going on in my head anymore. I guess that whole “saving” thing still gets me sometimes…I like to think I have grown far beyond the doormat that I was with the ex, and I believe I have. I think what I still struggle with though is that healthy balance between wanting to make a difference in peoples lives and not being a Florence Nightingale. Hence the post. Thanks for your replies ladies, youve helped me to remember that I need to trust myself more and that its not a crime to put yourself first.
Wish … Block him and you won’t hear from him. Problem solved. It really does take away the uneasiness of when and if he contacts you. Because he can’t.
Tinkerbell: I am very grateful for your concern and insight. In response to your last entry, I am feeling a little better, primarily due to the fact that I finally had a night of restful uninterrupted sleep, so I’m a little less jittery. Although I normally go to the gym on Sunday mornings, I just couldn’t do it this morning, as I am still mentally and emotionally exhausted, and I had several bouts of crying yesterday while I was out, so I think it best to say inside.
Unfortunately, I am not in a position to get out of this work situation, as I believe I would likely end up in the unemployment line. I have to find a way to muddle through at least until August, when everyone gets reassigned. I realize this co-worker has no concerns whatsoever about me revealing the real story to others in the office, as he is extremely manipulative and would surely concoct a story that would have everyone believing I’m a spiteful psycho. I will continue to be professional and do my job, but I’ll limit contact as much as possible, because he is dead to me. I have, however, decided to seek therapy, and have obtained a number of prospects through our company wellness program. I’ll begin calling therapists tomorrow, in search of those accepting new patients, because I know that I really need to talk to someone. I have burdened my friends and family long enough with this nonsense. As for the meds, I will probably take the Xanax when l need to, but I’m hopeful that as the days pass I won’t feel a need for it, coupled with the fact that I was only prescribed 10 pills to tide me over until my upcoming physical. I was pretty apprehensive about taking the Ambien to begin with, and now that I’ve discovered that it doesn’t provide the relief as I’d hoped, I will not use it consistently. I have faith that I will get through this somehow…one day at a time… Thanks to you, Tink,for caring. I appreciate all the support and encouragement here on BR.
Sanntay, I just wanted to chime in with my experience with the meds you are on. Ambien didn’t do it for me either. Sonata helped me when I woke up and couldn’t fall back to sleep and didn’t make me groggy the next day. I realized I experience a “rubberband” effect from Xanax – as soon as it would wear off, my anxiety be escalated beyond where it would have been if I hadn’t taken the Xanax. This may be the case with you and your sleep issues, etc. Just a thought…
FX.
Thanks for your input. I guess since I wouldn’t dream of taking both Xanax and Ambien at the same time, (and I’ve been on really heavy duty meds) it didn’t occur to me that the Xanax was counteracting the Ambien so she kept waking up. Also, when I was on Xanax and Prozac together I was just a zombie. I was appearing to be awake, but my mind was asleep. That was one of the reasons I was so adamant about cautioning against it.
I just want to add here – the personal insights on these medications is useful but I would exercise caution in discussing this further (providing medical advice is sketchy territory) and Saantay, I would use the feedback you did get to seek a second opinion on your medication from a medical professional but also ensure that you’re actually getting the appropriate care.
Natalie, You are right. Even though I DO have the knowledge it was more appropriate and safer for me to just advise her to get a second opinion since I clearly felt she was receiving inappropriate care. No problem. Thanks.
Urgh. Still sad. Still thinking, oh maybe I should have seen how the next week should go. At the point I ended it, he was calling less, was less careful about making plans (said he was going to call, but let the night get away, or called 15 minutes before the date), and not willing to be physically intimate/said no to coming in (fooling around, no sex – don’t believe in all or none here), and was only available for short amounts of time. I ended it when I felt I was having to ask for him to spend time with me. Now, that only happened once, but with him calling me 15 minutes before the date, once was enough. But that date had been so good, I worry he may have come around. But I ended it the very next morning.
When do you opt out? And know? Did I jump the gun? 3 weeks out of 5, he was great the rest he was pulling back. I still feel sad, when do I feel glad about this?
Superbad, it takes time to get objectivity. You did the right thing. You went with your gut. Believe in your ability to the right thing. You have to trust yourself. You saved yourself a lot of pain and time. Reread what you wrote if you need to and everyone elses comments. You did not make a mistake. You are worthy of more than this guy has to offer!
I am 8 weeks NC with my MM today. It has been tough, especially the first 6 weeks. But I come here everyday for reinforcement of my decision to opt out of the relationship. I allowed myself to be manipulated by someone who I considered a friend that turned out to be an AC. This post really hits the mark for me. I don’t know how you get into my mind, Natalie, but I’m sure glad you do!
I Fell For It. Please don’t refer to him as “MY MM”. Is he married to you? No. So how could he be yours? He is “The MM”. You are mentally as well as physically distancing yourself from him as opposed to embracing him. And, I might add you are doing a fine job. Keep it up. I, too spent 6 months deeply involved with a MM over 2 years ago. It took me twice as long to get him out of my system. It is tough, but with determination and learning to love yourself MORE (than him) it can be done. You should feel very proud of yourself. All the best, Tink.
I Fell For It,
I was going to write the same thing as Tinkerbell. He isn’t “your” MM. Since he is married, he isn’t available to you in any way shape or form. I would go one step further, he is the exMM. There are plenty of us former OW’s here that have said not only no but effing no. Welcome. Congratulations on 8 weeks NC. Keep saying NO.
Yeah, Runner. The EX MM!!!
Tinkerbell and Runnergirl,
Good point….he is the EUM/AC ex-MM. I have to start thinking that way. It’s amazing how little changes in thinking help with recovery. Because of everyone’s willingness to share their own experiences, I’ve realized that what I thought was something special that went bad was just run of the mill BS for men like that.
@Lucky_Charms
Thanks for that!
Keep the NC. It pays off! In fact, not that it is important, he will end up respecting you. Here is a link to a blog that you might find helpful. I usually take the posts there with a grain of salt but overall it is good.
http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2013/02/the-importance-of-silence-after-break-up.html
@ stacy allam
Thanks! I know what you mean. From my observation, it is usually the woman who gets hurt in a relationship like that.
Sanntay. Getting your rest is just as important as staying busy with activity. Sleep is so important and essential, especially for you in your situation. We’ve all had our man problems, but I found your story particularly unbearable. I am glad that you feel a little better. The more you can stay away from him the better you will feel. Trust me. I’m glad you’re going to follow up on my suggestion of talking to a professional. I’m doing cognitive behavior therapy with mine. You may want to inquire about it. It examines not just what you have done by WHY you feel, think, and react the way that you do. Your childhood and your past in general is examined, usually finding correlations with the person you are today. Fortunately, we continue to learn and transform ourselves as the days, months and years go by. I wish you every possible success in turning your life around and experiencing maximum contentment and joy. By the way thanks you for letting me/us all know what your near future plans are. It may seem crazy that a cyber associate would be so concerned and caring, but that is my make-up. I also believe that all of us on BR are special people. We care deeply about another’s pain, suffering and redemption. That is what got us here. All the best, Tink.
Thanks Tinkerbell. Things got worse than that to me and my child and other children. Last night I sent 3 posts to finish how my story ended. When I went to sleep last night they wete undergoing moderation review. Now I’m checking they are not there, so I guess they are deleted for BR policy reasons? A bit dissapointing but anyway. I’m still im contact with him to communicate about the child. For him it is an opportunity to continue abusing and threatening me including life threats. I don’t love hi, dont miss him and I do hate him immensel. Angry to myself to end up with such a man for a father of my precious child.
Afro, honey. Check again. It is easy to make a mistake. Natalie rarely deletes. I’ve had her address me on the website, and then go the extra step to contact me personally in regards to something I said. That was only one time in over 2 years. I’ve wondered if something I said was deleted, when I went back to check responses, and then discovered I was on the wrong post. So that’s why I say check again. Please take care of yourself and be very careful dealing with an abusive lunatic. It’s dangerous to your health and personal safety. As if you don’t already know this. Hugs, Tink.
AfroK,
don’t be so harsh on yourself – you just wanted to be loved, thats what we all want, yet none of us is safe from making a mistake, cause all of our lives we’re taught to deal with a mans misbehaviour instead of leaving such jerky men, who mean us no good (until we find the BR).
I can just slightly imagine how terrible that man was to you because of my experience with the latest AC, which, however, doesn’t amount to anything that you’re telling.
You had so much strength to leave such a terrible abuser (as we all know, lots of women deal with it for all of their lives!)and move your child away from him! So please don’t be angry at yourself – better be angry at that man. Stay strong!! We’re all here for you!
I think a couple of other people have said this as well: I get so, so, tired of always having to say “NO.” The alternative is usually saying yes to something I know I’m not going to be happy with. I used to try to negotiate with people who were hell-bent on getting their own way, and in fact weren’t interested in compromise. Not anymore.
I keep putting it out there, Universe, send me a situation I can say YES to, without regret. Is that too much to ask?
Assclown and emotionally unavailable cheaters always get caught because they cannot even properly maintain one relationship with someone else (or themselves for that matter. HA.) let alone two or more romantic relationships! And that is the big joke on us! When we decide he is lying and being nasty to downright abusive towards us, as tough as the situation is to quit the relationshit and move forward, realize that some folks just cannot be reasoned with–namely assclowns the relationship terrorists of our time. I realize that nobody is perfect. Assclown’s notorious line “you think you’re perfect” during one of the rare so-called relationship talks collaborated in convincing me to manage down my expectations. Natalie’s BR has helped me realize that those were just assclown’s manipulative fighting words used to avoid taking responsibility and disengage himself mentally by effectively sabotaging real communication. After writing this I understand why he was so defensive (let alone offensive) much of the time; because regardless of his issues or how his harem meddles or his personal looneytunes justifications for his behavior towards me he knew what he was doing wrong. And I realize that is the key here most Assclowns are damaged goods to the point of being nothing but fanatical relationship terrorists who have an ulterior agenda that certainly does not involve having your best interests at heart.
In essence, Assclowns do wrong on purpose to us for themselves in order to promote their own careless and reckless agenda; that is why we are doomed for failure and more pain and grief courtesy of Assclown emotionally unavailable dickweed incorporated if we try to negotiate and/or continue to participate with these fools. My first intimate love/serious boyfriend turned out to be a total Assclown and chalking it up to an unfortunate experience is rather light-hearted but needed in order for me to heal. I have no regret despite my anger now and take this as a lesson learned. I just feel like time is running out and my life is in slow-motion. As much as I am trying to gain employment (degrees but no luck in job hunt) as well as move back out of my parents house (who live at the other end of nowhere town pop 500 and literally no dating pool…I had to drive a good hour to see ex Assclown on the weekends and occasionally during weekdays) it either is not happening at all or not fast enough for me to realize despite my attempts. And I want to start a family and have children but once bitten by an Assclown is enough for me. I also know getting independence as well as financial independence through full time employment should be done before trying to find a man in today’s world. And I’m really trying…And I don’t want Assclown’s words to me of “You’re going to be in the same place 5 years from now!” to come true. He already took 2 of my years while a job offer fell through not too long ago just when I thought I was going to make it and despite other applications and interviews and being aggressive in job hunting with a 2.5 year unemployment gap now it just isn’t happening and I don’t want to give up the fight. His nasty words and mean harsh tone just keep creeping back into my thoughts and he probably has no idea. He’s a sick lousy excuse of a person and this is making me realize how he was kicking me down while I was already down..
Well said, KM. I totally agree.
I have recently said NO to myself & am quite chuffed at finally seeming to be learning to put my BR edctn into effect. I have a new male internet ‘friend’. I recalled something Tink said abt boundaries w a diff guy who had asked me out (how much they needed to know). I remembered this with my new internet ‘friend’ (who may b.come micro business partner) & STOPPED MYSELF from blabbing away. I was abt to, just a bit of info (but still WAY too much) when I realised hang on, this person doesn’t need to know any of these things, even as even though we share some things in common, we remain virtual strangers on the internet (& I would not be telling them this if they were sitting here IRL so why on earth would I do it over the internet!?) I realised I was trying to create FALSE intimacy due to being in crisis & wishing a knight,in shining armour would suddenly appear to RECSUE me & I have ALREADY learnt tht lesson & don’t want or need to repeat it! Thanku Nat & Tink for helping me to learn to say NO to MYSELF! I feel like I’m finally starting to learn! 🙂
Very tired & must sleep but 2 things quickly. Big hug for KW & love yr name change Ms No Longer An Option. Teach xx
Oh Teach. I am happy to have had a positive influence. I had told you that because I sensed that you may be in the habit of doing that. Actually, I’ve had to learn to curb the same in myself. We must be careful not to trust so easily, taking strangers into our confidence prematurely by blabbing away our personal business. Is this related to the circle of trust? I think so. The great thing about BR is that we learn not only from Nat but, from each other. When the heck are you going to feel better, girl. You ran across my mind a few days ago as I realized you had not been posting. Take good care of yourself. Smooch!
Teach: I’ve been guilty of oversharing myself, but now I believe there is something “off” with all those people who encourage us to overshare. Usually they have an agenda… Now I feel extremely uncomfortable around everybody I used to overshare with in the past.
Also, please don’t rely too much on this guy as a potential business partner. If I were you I would rather work on your personal “pitch”, your resume, your network and whatever else is needed to succeed in your field. Line up as many business opportunities as you can! Those who appear to be a “godsent” often turn out to be the opposite.
I tried to convert GF (i’m more like her booty call) to a platonic friendship, but it only lasted couple days before we had sex again.
I told her to keep it platonic because I am healing from divorce and temporarily EU.
I explained that i can’t say NO to ex wife, and ex wife was needing sex from me, so i had to give in to ex wife manipulation.
Why is it so hard to say NO and not have sex
Roberto, it is easy, because it is just a matter of saying no and not having sex. Just think of all the exciting things you can do instead!
You can’t say no? Or you chose not to?
You *had* to give in? Or you chose to?
You told *her* to keep it platonic, as if she has the power to keep YOUR dick in your own pants?
You speak as if you are a victim of these women, but you are victimizing yourself with your own choices and acting as if you aren’t the one making them.
I don’t mean to be harsh, I mean to tease a bit because I do know how difficult it can seem to say no. The first time I told my supervisor NO, I felt like I was in a scene from the Matrix or something. I could hear a thrumming in my ears, the walls seemed to be throbbing, whom whom whom whom…I went back to my office, trembling and shaking.
An hour later, I felt like Superwoman. Rawr! I lived through that, I can do anything!!
Oh, and also, saying NO to an allegedly Perfectly Nice Man who I had a bad feeling about, had me curled up on the floor, rocking, in the fetal position, feeling like I needed to vomit, for an hour, the voices in my head INSISTING I was going to die, I was doing a horrible thing to a good person, who am I to turn anyone down, he was my Last Chance Saloon and possessed the keys to everything I ever wanted and how could I be so mean and on and on and on.
So I just stayed with myself, breathed through it, and lived to tell the tale, and to find out later through mutual friends the man has a criminal history and is highly volatile.
There ARE difficult feelings that can come up in the wake of saying NO. We avoid them because the voices in our head tell us we will DIE if we feel those feelings. But I see it like exercising an atrophied muscle. At first lifting a 5lb. weight seems like lifting an elephant, and your muscles are trembling and shaking and on fire the next day…then over time, you can easily lift more and more until next thing you know, 25 and 50 lbs. feel easy.
Oh, come on, Sunyata, I lied that harsh response of yours! Some tough love is neccesary in the process ob becoming aware of yourself.For everyone, including Roberto. Cause I can remember him saying the same things months ago!
EUM Roberto:
Reading your account of these sexual encounters you have it seems to me like you get some kind of ego boost from women stalking you for sex. I mean, what guy wouldn´t feel he´s a real macho/studd if he has his EX WIFE + a lot of other ladies begging him for his dick?
I´m thinking there may be a part of you that enjoys this attention, not necesarily because you´re horny but because it validates you as a man. Does that make any sense?
So, if that is the way it is, it would be really hard for you not to encourage (albeit unconsciously) some succubus-like attitudes from the ladies you encounter. The only solution is to get your ego out of the equation, EUM Roberto. Perhaps then you´ll notice you actually enjoy your own company for a while.
I’ve been following your situations EUM R. I would like to suggest that you recommend BR to the ex-wife and to the booty call(s). And may I add to Lilia’s suggestion of getting your ego out of the equation? Perhaps, something else needs to be zipped up and out of the equation? If there was any situation in need of a firm “NO”, it’s everybody involved, including you.
At the very least, I hope all you folks are having protected sex? Have you read Natalie’s books?
Hi,
This is a rather timely post for me.
I have a friend who encouraged me to go ahead and break up with my boyfriend of two and a half years. I thought some of her points made a lot of sense, (and Natalie, your points of course made sense) and after a particularly challenging incident, I finally decided to break up with him.
My friend encouraged me to do No Contact, which I began… and then, with all that time on my hands, and all the pain I was suddenly going through, she began to take advantage of me. She started calling four or five times a day, wanting to get together and talk (about my problems) and then she’d usually ask me for a favour or two. She didn’t have a car, so many of the favours involved errands that she wanted to do, and others were little things like asking me to come over and help her dye her hair, fix her computer or take her books to the recycle bin… all of which I gladly did.. for a while…
And then I began to realize that my breakup was working out nicely for her, and that I had dropped one controlling person and added another.
So I just started saying little, tiny NOs to her. Oh my. At first it felt terrible! It felt terrible either way! If I helped her or if I didn’t! She was always gracious but the feeling I kept getting was similar to the way I’d feel when approached by beggars on the street. I wouldn’t feel good giving and I wouldn’t feel good not giving! Their aggression put me in an awkward position, and they didn’t mind doing that to me! (Which I WOULD mind doing to them.)
After a while it did actually feel good when I said NO and then just kept calm and carried on.
You know what? Even though I like this woman a lot as a person, I’m thinking that I’d rather not have her for a friend. None of my friends constantly ask me to do things for them, and I don’t ask my friends to do things for me. I enjoy my time with them but I don’t really need them for anything other than being social and having fun.
And I realized that the breakup didn’t really require No Contact, and that there was an easier way – like talking things through – to accomplish it, and I felt much better about myself to do what felt best for me… and the pain lessened for each of us as we talked… and I found that I didn’t really want to discuss my ex with any of my friends..
So I like this post about saying NO!
No to people who want to use my time, energy and talents for the things they want to accomplish in life.
No to doing things the way other people want me to do them, when their recommendations don’t feel good to me…
No to letting other people into my private affairs and telling them everything.
No, No, No!
Thanks, Natalie.
~ Laura
Laura. There are scheming, manipulative people in this world that catch us unaware. Unless you are that type yourself, you don’t look for it in others. She had an ulterior motive for encouraging you to break up and even go NC with him. She wanted uninterrupted access to you so you could fulfill all her needs and she probably felt a bit of jealousy also. Scrutinize more next time. You should have been asking yourself, “Why is it so important to her that I break it off? What does she stand to gain? But, of course you weren’t thinking about such things or that she would be so cunning. You were thinking she was your FRIEND. Live and learn.
I think you might be right… thanks, Laura
Thanks Tinkerbell and you are right about Natalie not deleting posts. She has contacted me privately and has given me constructive feedback on why they were not posted, attaching BR terms of use and FAQ. After reading them I realised that I actually walked allover the guidelines and i went way too far off the topic. So I’ll keep that in mind while posting instead of puking allover the place. Thanks Natalie. And thanks Tinkerbell for your encouragements.
And that is why I’m so angry at myself for not saying No and instead gave someone permission to destroy me this much. I used to be good at No before I met him, and never looked back. My best rewarding No was when I turned down sexual advances my Executive Director in a law firm and resigned. That opened career opportunities that I never dreamed of. I used to be strong, knew what I wanted and went for it and at 29 I was exactly where I had envisioned in my career and life. Then came this ex husband, all my brain down the drain. I know from my ealier posts I do sound so stupid and probably dumb. I don’t blame anyone for thinking like that. I could have said No when he started calling obsessively two weeks after a couple of emails exchange, but I thought that was love. No one had fussed over me that much before. I could have said No when he started hinting on marriage by 3 months, but it was all believable. Or when I realised he lied about divorcing twice and number of children. But everyone (family and friends) knew about the upcoming wedding and I loved him and believed him when he justified it. Interesting though more than half of my consciousness was in doubt, but somehow I told myself that I worry too much. I told myself at 29, with career in check (ironically I was supporting sexual and domestic violence victims), all I needed was a nice man to love me and start a family. He was the first to talk marriage with me and follow through. In the past I had said no to future fakers and flushed. I feel disgusted at myself when I remember how I willingly allowed him to inspect me to prove my fidelity. There are so many instances where I agreed to his wishes while my heart screamed No. And here I am, sad, lost and resentful and just tired. For veterans of BR I really need your words of wisdom. How to say no to this emotionally battered person I’ve become, and get back to who I was long time ago.
Afro K. I’m glad you understand now the BR rules. Natalie is great and corrects in a classy manner.
Always listen to your gut, your first instinct, your inner voice and if you love God, The Holy Spirit. They’re all the same and will be right every time. We get into trouble when we ignore what we are reminded is best for us. Have you established NC? Thank God that you don’t have any children with him, so you can handle things in a much less complicated manner. Don’t beat yourself up about what is already done. You will not be repeating those actions. LEARN THE LESSON has become one of my favorite mantras. It is soooo important. Otherwise, we will continue repeating the same mistakes. And, BLOCK HIM from your phone, etc. so he has no access to you whatsoever. You will heal much faster by having NOTHING to do with him. Good luck & Hugs, Tink.
Hi AfroK,
Sweetheart, “IT’S NOT YOUR FAULT.”
I don’t want to discount any of your feelings, as I believe you need to work through them, but please try to understand that there is a big difference between taking responsibility for oneself, and so called ‘allowing’ something to happen.
He is an ABUSER, and HE IS the only one RESPONSIBLE for the abuse that he inflicted on you.
What you are describing here is DOMESTIC VIOLENCE, and the feelings that you are describing are ‘normal’ for someone who has been through this type of violence and trauma.
You mentioned that you are familiar with domestic violence; well, sweetheart, you need to seek professional help for domestic violence.
Domestic Violence requires a structured, complex recovery, and as you probably know, there is a great deal of help out there, so perhaps you can contact a therapist, join a support group, or enter a recovery program (there are many online support groups out there).
Now, is NOT the time to say “NO” to YOU. Now is the time to say “Yes” to loving yourself; and showing yourself love, compassion, kindness, respect, and care. You need YOU now more than ever to be there for YOU, as you would be for one of your dearest friends. You deserve and are so worthy of your own respect, LOVE and kindness.
Stay with us here; we will support you,but you need to enter into a recovery program as well, and just take it one step at a time.
Congratulations on telling your story; I know that couldn’t have been easy, and I am proud of YOU. 🙂
Many Blessings On To You,
and May Your Higher Power Keep You In Love and Faith,
You’re going to be alright.
((HUGS))~~On Leaving Sugarland
Another incredible post! I have decided to end it with my always busy guy. He kept making and canceling plans all last week and yesterday was the last straw. I was working and have a paper for my masters to finish. We had plans for last night and he cancels in the afternoon saying that since his son was visiting and was sick with a cold he had to stay home and do the laundry (gee, guess he’s setting up an operating room) Then he texts last night asking to talk. I listen half heartedly and even think I catch him in a lie. That’s it. BTW he said that he might text me tonight to talk. I say Im working tonight (he knows this and still texts when I am there!). He says he’ll text and see if I can slip away to chat. No, dude, its not all about you!
I feel stupid…no fool like an old fool. Im 51 and he was the guy that came back after a year. I thought it was because I was special to him. Now I dont even want to think about why he did. I thought he was different than the long distance EUMM assclown I was involved with years before but I was wrong. Im proud that it took me less time to say “no, thanks” to his nonsense yet a part of me feels bad as he was always asking for my advice on parenting,etc. But it was just him sucking the life out of me on his terms, his timetable. I expect he will try to make the “official” I’m too busy to date you anymore phone call this week. He will be very surprised when I don’t pick up the phone!
This is a terrific blog and speaks directly to what I am struggling with with my ex. He is buzzing about convinced that after a few months of therapy he has changed and can now feel feelings and express emotions. His emails are full of the details of his new found personality and his reaching out. He writes loving things to me which makes me wonder what he is observing and whether he has heard I thing I have said. I keep things very cool and detached- and I rarely share anything about myself anymore at all. After thinking this through I realize he is busting my boundaries and that I still think of him as indiscriminate in his choices and relationships – as shown now with me. The problem is that I don’t feel entitled to say no. My should voice tries to convince me that my deep distrust of him is not really real even though I have had a visceral response to him for years. The very fact that he is not respecting the formality of my relationship with him and that he is chatting constantly about himself is inappropriate now. And it forces me to have to bring up this yet again and have him be shocked and hurt. It is like Groundhog day where I have to break up with him again and again and again. And yes I feel sure I will have to observe him in new relationships and my kids urging him on and being pleased for him. It all makes me kind of sick.
Thanks to Natalie and everyone here on BR. I will definitely heed all of the concerns expressed here and work to get through the coming days without the meds as I’m not trying to cause further harm, I just want to feel like my old self again and through the support and concern of others along with the correct medical intervention, I know I’ll get better.
Before I get to the “NO” Hi to all you dear souls that have shared your personal experiences and given me a connection that removed my feeling of being alone in this madness.I can’t remember how I came across this site,but Nat- her good work,and all of your stories have changed my life. I have been 5 mths NC with my AC that I was “mucking up my life with” on and off for 4 yrs. I work with the exAC & he can be an ass#$%. When he gets his AC PMS and seeks me out it is very difficult to keep him at a distance. Not because I am so in love and miss him. I got a clear head with NC. It is because I am afraid of his instability. He is a drunk and was that way before I ever came into his life. That makes him very unstable. I am able to say NO to him because I have this site and all of your stories to keep me strong. Because of Nat, and all of you I was able to calm the AC, when he had a PMS fit last week and he said “this is so hard between the two of us”. I told him to “ride it out. it will pass” and he has left me alone since in his own crazy way. I read this site every day and both of Nat’s books every day. AC are addicting and I cannot walk on my own yet. The worst part of this all is that I am married and he is married and both of our partners know. It is/was a big horrible mess. I hope every day that I can wake up and feel how I did before I let myself think I could “handle this”.”NO” is what I tell myself when the AC tries to reset and also to anyone else that wants to walk me into another lie. BTW my husband and I are at full disclosure now. He has full access to my phone, email, anything he wishes and I am fine with that. He knows that I am posting my first reply. He is relieved that he is not be the only one to run this past any more.
foolforlove,
congratulations for going NC with this man. Are you actually NC though, if you are actually receiving his messages about “being so hard between the two of us”?
Why not go full NC and refuse to discuss anything personal with him? Nat has a section in her ebook “The NC Rule” that deals with handling NC with someone at work.
It is good you are reading BR. It is great that you and your husband are at full disclosure. All the best as you work to rebuild your marriage. It’s a tough road, but so worthwhile!
Learner – Thank you so much for you encouraging words. I have both of Nat’s books I read them everyday. The NC has been me never responding since Nov 24, 2012, to his personal email, IM’s or text messages. We work in the same office and on some of the same projects. Every time he has tried to speak to me(his 4 week PMS)about our relationship I have walked away without a word, or I turn it back to work. This last time, that was mentioned, so much time had passed from when we actually had anything to do with each other that it was creepy and affected me. He came to my desk for a normal work issue and then his face changed and he said the comment about “this is so hard between us”. I ignored it but I admit I was totally embarrassed about what my coworkers that share my office would think, That is when I told him to let it pass and that I didn’t know what he was talking about.
I am a mess Learner. A total mess because I cannot believe I let myself do what I did. I suffer everyday. I do all the right things, work my very best, love my family and friends, my pets, and still there is a horrible part of me that lives on. A voice inside of me that wants the things that make a healthy life impossible. So much damage, so many bad thoughts. I am sad that I will have to carry this terrible person with me no matter what I do or where I go. I will try every day to do the right thing and be grateful for all that I have. I am blesses even though I am damaged. OXOX
Laying low here Tink. Been busy with appealing my $/insurance/health sitch. Think I stuffed up but yet to hear either way. If go down it’ll be fighting. That’s what counts.
Funny your feedback. Actually normally I shut my mouth but since I’ve been ill my boundaries have become lax. That’s partly how ex now deceased AC wormed his way bk in after a 17 yr absence. I was recovering frm a heart attack at the time… Anyway… whatever it was causing it, I do see it. Thankyou for picking up on it. I still need a cotton wool environ here. Long way to go till out of the mud yet…
PS Was missing ex now deceased AC today. Not how he treated me but a friend asked abt him & I told her what happened. Death is so final. Depression is also doing a real number on me. To be expected. Trying not to quit before the miracle… hope it hurries up a bit…
Pax, Tinkerbell, Lau_ra and OnLeavingSugarland; thanks so much for your support. I’m glad to come to BR, I see it as a process in saying NO to power of my abuser.
Pax-yes he is a criminal, so slimy that he gets away with it. If it wasn’t the marriage shield, I’d show you a ‘wives trafficker.’ I thought I was 2nd, then learnt I was 3rd, after marriage I realised there was a forth one, and after me he has now just imported a new one. Thanks for reassurance that I made a right decision to leave, which is basically saying NO to it all.
Tinkerbell-I have a child with him, I wish I’d chosen a better father for my precious darling. But it was my child that gave me strength to leave as I didn’t want him to grow up around abuse and violence. I keep contacts to a minimum and about the child, although the AC would seize the opportunity to emotionally and verbally abuse me. Thanks for advice on trusting my instinct and using the experience as a lesson.
Lau_ra-I’m sorry to hear you were involved with similar AC. It sort of normalise the situation to know I’m not alone, and certainly not insane. I hope the AC is out of your life for ever as I do know first hand how they persist to exert power on their victims even after you have left them. I shared the story as a little step towards recovery journey, thanks for support.
OnLeavingSugarland-Thanks for your words of encouragement. It’s ironic that my familiarity with DV never prepared me for the experience, during and after the marriage. I thank God that very good friends actually risked themselves to help me. One put a timer and literally dragged me around to pack me and my baby’s basic things before getting out. I was in zombie mode by then, some events are still foggy. She has stood by me to date. She’s the same one that got me to BR, a step to saying YES to me. I am seeing a therapist and a psycholigist for Post traumatic stress to try and repair the damage.
KM,
I’m sorry to hear about your horrible experience in the hands of that cold hearted man. It is saddening that someone you give your love and trust to, would betray it in such a cruel way. However I do admire your strength in the way you have shared it and as Learner has put it better, your “excellent insight” of the whole situation.