When two people are romantically interested in each other, they make it known and it doesn’t turn into this long, drawn out, ambiguous rigamarole of wondering whether or not they’re interested. It’s because one or both parties are being ambiguous why these ‘Whatchamacallit situations’ where people aren’t sure whether they’re “just friends” or whether whatever they’ve been doing is building towards dating or a relationships are happening in the first place. I’m still waiting for that email/comment/story that goes, “Our situation was super ambiguous and we texted / Facebook messaged for months/years and even slept in the same bed / dry humped / did everything but / did everything and still continued being ambiguous and here we are living happily ever after”.
What I do hear plenty of variations of is, They’re so interested in me that they don’t know how to show it and/or are so overwhelmed by it’. This is projecting and it leads to a whopper of an imagination hangover. Most of us struggle to predict the innermost feelings and thoughts of people that we’ve spent our entire lives around [family] and even those of us who think that we can must be careful of being complacent and assumptive. If you’ve come up with all manner of excuses for why your ‘Whatchamacallit situation’ is what it is, it’s time to ask:
How did you come to know so much about someone who is not expressing words and creating matched actions about the very thing that counts [what’s going on in this ‘relationship’]?
It’s tricky when friends and readers share tales of meeting “quirky”, “eccentric”, “super clever”, “poetic” and other such people who they ‘hang out’ with, talk about “everything”, and typically exchange a hell of a lot of texts and Facebook messages. Part of me wants to dress up as Whoopi Goldberg’s character in Ghost and say, “Molly, you in danger girl”. How can they spend so much time around or talking (or tippy tapping messages) to somebody who they say that they talk about “everything” with and yet still have no clue whether they reciprocate their interest and/or are up for a relationship?
It’s ambiguous in part because they don’t want to risk asking the person and jeopardising the picture that they’ve painted in their mind. It may also be about not wanting to risk the friendship but the problem is that the longer this ambiguity goes on for is the less of a friendship it is. These situations can weigh very heavily on the party who feels emotionally invested and is essentially waiting for the other party to step up and make things official.
Aside from the obvious issues that ambiguity brings, namely not knowing where you stand and potentially putting yourself in a situation where the other party is enjoying all of the trappings of a relationship or at the very least your interest and even admiration without stumping up any real effort or commitment for that matter, the other big issue is that due to whatchamacallit situations being where you’re not pure friends but you’re also clearly not in a relationship, you don’t know what to define you as so you get put between a rock and a hard place in terms of handling their lack of interest.
Part of you may feel like verbally tearing them limb from limb, especially if it becomes apparent that they’ve been toying with your feelings, but another competing part of you will want to be nice and friendly about things and you may fear looking like a ‘psycho’.
Next thing, you’re squashing down your very natural hurt, sadness, and possible anger while they keep trying to act as if that whole you expressing your feelings / them mucking you around didn’t happen. They may even be blowing up your phone so that you can reassure their ego that you’re not mad at them or that they’re not whatever they privately feel their behaviour suggests. Note: It would be a damn sight easier in these situations if they would just admit their end of things and apologise. You then end up either trying to take a step back to give you a chance to get over things but then feeling guilty about not replying and even feeling as if you’re punishing them for not being interested, or you just end up trying to continue as normal and then tricking you into believing that they’ve had a change of heart and restart the fantasy.
Here’s the thing: You’re both grownups and you can own your part in letting things rumble on and learn from the experience but unless this was an open and shut case of pure fantasy, they played their part too. We’ve all been around the block a few times to know when somebody is interested in us. Let’s not pretend now. We often feel flattered even if we don’t reciprocate their feelings. It is okay for them to not be interested but it’s not cool for them to then:
- Toy with your emotions
- Expect you just to bury your feelings and grin and bear it so that they can press the reset button
- Feel entitled to your time and attention
- Make out like it was all in your imagination while then repeating the very things that contributed to this malarkey
- Twist unrelated conversations you shared and use it against you to build a case against you for not pursuing a relationship
- Expect you to massage their ego and take care of their feelings, namely the guilt that they bloody well feel
You may be worried about how you look and looking like you’re punishing them but the reason why you’re focusing on these is because you’re not doing the all-important job of taking care of you. It can feel as if you’re going through a breakup but then you may feel ‘wrong’ for feeling this way as you may not believe that you have a legitimate reason. Every involvement, ambiguous or not, has your hopes and expectations tied up in it. When these are not met, you experience a loss and you need time to grieve. It’s the kind thing to do for you. If you pretend that you don’t feel as you do, you’re disrespecting you and ultimately those suppressed and repressed feelings will manifest themselves in various ways. You may even end up erupting in anger and frustration which may bring even more ill feeling.
Don’t worry so much about how you look because at the end of the day, if it’s been an ambiguous situation, it’s not so much about being angry about them not being interested and more about feeling angry that you’ve either been messed around before you spoke up or about the way that they’re behaving towards you now that you know how they feel. It may be convenient for them to spin it as you having hard feelings about things but that’s just a smokescreen for the truth.
Their lack of interest doesn’t have to spell the end of the friendship (unless it wasn’t really a friendship in the first place or they’re behaving like an arse now) but it does spell the end of the ambiguity and the crush. In accepting and respecting their decision even if it’s through gritted teeth, you’d be amazed at how different things look without them perched on a pedestal and you always trying to read between the lines.
When you bring clarity to these whatchamacallit situations, what can also come to light is that you’re no longer okay with settling for crumbs or fooling you in any way. You discover that actually, you want intimacy and to know where you stand plus if you take care of you, you also discover that the sky doesn’t fall down if the person doesn’t want a relationship with you. It can even prove to be a blessing in disguise. Relationships, romantic and otherwise, rely on honesty and by stepping up for you and removing ambiguity, you’re actually making a healthy decision to value integrity, security, intimacy and of course, you.
Your thoughts?
PS I am popping home to Dublin (Ireland) for a couple of days this week. If you’re around on Thursday evening, I’ll be hosting a meetup at Pedal Pushing Monkey from 6.15 pm. For more details and to RSVP, email natalie AT baggagereclaim.co.uk
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It’s crazy how good our minds are at seeing what we want to see. We create a story in our heads and look for the evidence that supports our beliefs while discounting the signs that don’t. It’s scary sometimes to face the truth. Not so much because we have to be willing to see the other person in their entirety, but because we have to be willing to see our vulnerable selves.
I have learned the hard way that if there’s any ambiguity, RUN! I may not find out what the problem is for a looong time; some folk are really, really good at hiding themselves along with wives/girlfriends. I really do wish others words/actions/feelings were in line with one another. I always strive for this as having been on the receiving end of ambiguous behavior and its aftermath, would never do this to another. I don’t know why folk demand attention from someone they do not want; maybe it is an ego thing. I really don’t feel we can be friends with someone we were attracted to unless it occurs after we have found another or the attraction has died. My policy of only becoming involved with someone I never need to see again really prevents this kind of heartache, especially here in this small community where everyone is connected in some way.
Whoops. Wish I could see the entire text on this blasted phone. Twas sposed to have read “only becoming involved with someone I need never see again should things go south”.
It’s sad to be so lonely that when these guys throw little bones of affection we fall in love and hold on with hope of a future with them.
I think timing has something to do with it… for me, I would have never tolerated last guys’ abuse had I met him several years ago. He worked out of town and would call me every morning and every night (At First). I lived for his calls and texts, meager as they were.
He was verbally abusive and sometimes his morning call would hurt me and make me cry. I eventually knew I was risking it by talking to him before work – yet I held on until he had a baby at his age of 51, and bought a house with baby mama. I had been reading BR for a couple years and could finally let him go. He still cheats- but not with me.
Excellent post as always, Nat.
Ambiguity is so exhausting. It really is. If we could just call it ‘exhausting’ to its face, it might help us to move past it …
And tolerating an ambiguous situation over a long period of time is a pretty sure sign that you, personally, are emotionally unavailable.
Not just them. You. Yes, you. The one in the mirror.
You are so right. It took me a long time to accept this.
I’m dealing with this right now, I’ve been speaking to this guy for maybe only a little over a month. In the beginning he was responding to me always right away and said “he wasn’t going to act as if he didn’t want to speak to me because he always wants to”. Things got bad lately and it’s got to the point it affects me emotionally and at work (I’m in the military). Lately he’s been seeming stand offish but when I question him he tells me it’s fine. I’m not sure if he just doesn’t want to deal with confrontation so he’s letting me off easy or it’s really all on my head. It’s driving me crazy though because I was so happy in the beginning he seemed crazy about me but my insecurity and neediness may have pushed him away.
Jeni, why are you blaming yourself for ‘insecurity’ and ‘neediness’?
He’s clearly NOT fine.
He IS being standoffish and dishonest.
He ISN’T communicating respectfully with you.
Your reactions to this – feeling insecure, and wanting some affirmation – are NORMAL, not freakish!
(When you say ‘speaking’, do you mean speaking, or do you mean texting/messaging? If it’s the latter, Molly, you in danger anyway, girl …)
Yes I do mean texting and messaging and there’s a lot more to the situation that kind of can add to it but I do get where you are coming from. It’s hard to separate myself completely but I guess just being a friend and letting go little by little may help me.
Jeni,
If things are so sketchy so early on, there’s a problem.
It’s only been a month. I would let him go.
Have you met this guy?
I have met him, Yes. He is in the military as well on the same base as me. I feel like if there’s nothing physical there’s nothing for him to lie to me to gain anything but it’s confusing. He told me he doesn’t know what he wants… I’m guessing it’s translation is: “I don’t want you but, don’t want to hurt you”. Or deal with the emotions after it.
If he doesn’t know what he wants…then he doesn’t want you. Don’t take it personally, I’ve had this said to me before!
Hi,
Thank you for this wonderful website, and thank you for all these posts.
I was introduced via email to a friend of a friend who lives in Canada. I am in the USA. I was born and raised in England but I now reside in the USA.
This chap, bloke, dude wrote to me. He has said that he does not really like questions, or typing but he has been corresponding with me for about two and a half months now.
He is rather tardy in responses to emails. Some of which take over two weeks for him to respond. So this period does not equate to a great deal of emails.
He has not responded to my last email for three weeks now. Maybe there was an Alien abduction to probe him…who knows. I tend to use humor to make a point. So I sent at least three emails to his last response. I know, but forgive me I am new to this website. I sent a copy of it to my friend venting. She is married but is so laid back about things it is frustrating. Her position is that I am being pushy and my email sounds demanding, and I might appear “needy.” Why is that such a bad word. Is said in my email to him that a reasonable response time was all I am asking for, and that if he not interested in pursuing and exploring a friendship of sorts to let me know. All this was done with tongue and cheek.
It now transpires that he does not have email at home. I heard this information second had from his relative. Don’t ask, but she was the one that told me that he was looking for “his queen.” She also feels that I am being pushy.
The issue is the vagueness of “there is a long distance between us,” and I am the “touchy feely type.” He then said he could not find the time to write and that he was not inclined to “avatar” himself to a computer. He is not Amish, well not that I know of ( there are some very liberal Amish folks these days) but at no time did he suggest not having a computer. So I had no notion that this could account for the very late responses. He would just apologize for the late response when he writes. I do not even know what he does for a living. His relative told me he has very tedious job, that he lives 20 minutes away from her home and she rarely sees him and that he is very busy!!!
I think I communicate well, and I believe that I make my intentions clear. I am just miffed now because my friend is not as supportive as I thought she would be. I think the consensus is that I should be laid back, and not rock the boat.
This website is tremendous because the topics and the responses are addressing the very issues that I am dealing with. I do not even know if he has a car to get to what I assume is a library in order to send an email. Why don’t people just be up front and explain themselves instead of all this shilly shallying about?
I am left to speculate as to why. Like many have said, you make excuses for the “crumbs.” That is so accurate. Crumbs. Then when like Oliver did, in Oliver Twist you ask……”please sir……can I have some more…….” you get a shocked expression.
I decided today not to hold a candle light vigil over my email box. I am getting very angry at myself for wanting to check it. I wanted to un-install my mail box from my computer just to stop myself from checking every day for a “crumby morsel,” email response. I know now since visiting this web site that I am not alone, but I feel like a dip stick behaving this way.
Well thanks to all for listening and sharing.
Hi Maat, If your interested in fantasy vs actual relating and relationship the article below is a good one. I think it’s an excerpt from Nat’s book.
The Dreamer & the Shopper: Have you inadvertently found yourself in a fantasy relationship?
by NATALIE (NML) on OCTOBER 24, 2011 · 275 COMMENTS
ok thanks 🙂
Hi Maat,
While you saying, “All this was done with tongue and cheek” gave me a frisson (thank you), my first thought is that your man is probably a musician.
This post reminded me of coming home (in 2004) after several years in voluntary exile to a band gig in which not one but TWO members of the six-piece ensemble did not have a computer at home, nor any clue as to how to use one. While I had rudimentary word processing skills, I couldn’t afford to buy a really expensive electronic gadget, never mind pay for monthly internet service when my profession didn’t even produce enough income to cover basic maintenance of my instrument(s) or vehicle when I was working full-time as a starving artist in 1997.
The “very tedious job” is probably whatever shit-ass flog (that allows him to blow it off whenever he gets a gig) he has to work to pay for a roof over his head, if he even has one, since compensation for musicians deteriorated precipitously around the turn of the millennium, and is now a relic of the past.
From what you describe, this person is not in any position to pursue a relationship. If you want one, have a look around you where you are now, but first, I recommend taking a spin through the archives of this immensely rich and wonderful resource to get properly prepared for one.
Very best,
Brenda K
Great post!!! I’m still reeling from an ambiguous, confusing, and what sometimes feels like imaginary relationship. I have beat myself up for a long time for wasting years of my life chasing someone whose behavior has shown time and time again that he wasn’t interested. This guy has hurt me and let me down repeatedly and on most days he barely qualifies as a friend. I projected so much onto him and I blame myself for my own disappointment. I realize I have no real right to be mad at him as he never promised me anything. However, after beating myself up for some time now, I am beginning to realize that he deserves some blame as well. I think he designed the situation in such a way that he wouldn’t be the bad guy. He has a need to always be seen as the “nice guy” and lord help anyone who calls him out on his BS or makes him feel bad about any of his actions. If I brought it up or asked questions, I was acting “crazy” like all of his exes (and all women in general!)He knew how I felt and he took advantage of that by hooking up with me when it was convenient for him. I know I am responsible for allowing it to happen but he played me when he needed an ego stroke, or he was lonely, or bored, or whatever. I have never known where I stood with this guy and I’m tired of the ambiguity. It’s hard to give up on a (mostly) imagined relationship. Especially one that’s lasted for years. Thanks for the post – time for some CLARITY!!!!
Wow…it always amazes me how much everyones stories are so much alike. Your entire post could be mine.
Same thing, the all too nice guy that makes you feel ‘guilty’ for wanting to bail on him even when he literally just pounded you with worst imaginable truth that he is NOT there for you in the least,or could ever be trusted.
Been there done that.. so much for ‘NICE’ guys they are not really all nice, seriously we need look for someone with GUTS and a nice guy is not always nice just someone lacking in GUTS and often I think they get drawn to women who DO have some, and yet despise them for having what they do not in reality.
Cake eaters (users) always want to maintain their “nice guy” image. They don’t give a shit about your feelings or emotional well-being, but they are gravely concerned about their own reputation.
It’s always EXACTLY what it looks it.
Right, and I will add they often settle in mundane “safe” jobs as well and do NOT take risks to succeed financially and then they feel lowly, and never get 1/2 of this sex conquest is ALL for the self esteem also, I see it so clearly where I could not really before, But I DO now.
Excellent, succint string of thoughts and insights.
Thank you.
God bless you, and everyone on this site.
These people are evil.
* edit: succinct.
This could be my post for the most part. Although, he did make promises that he wasn’t prepared to keep. Lesson learned.
Dennis Prager, who is a talk show host in the USA says something that I will never forget. I use it all the time now. He says “I prefer clarity over agreement.” I am not sure if it is his own quote or not, so I am not sure who to give the credit to.
Question. Are women more prone to day-dreaming? I find myself having conversations in my mind concerning ‘what I would say if he said this, or that, or does this or that, or if he does not respond, or if he does respond.’ Sheeeesh I need a doctor!!! This is insane. When is this going to stop?
I laughed so hard at your Ghost reference! Thank you for the wise words and the belly laugh…on a Monday too!
On Friday I just unfriended someone. He’s someone I dated ages ago, then ran into when I moved back to this province. On the back of him telling me how great I look and how much he has always liked me, I asked him out, we fooled around a little. He followed up with a text that was more about the fooling around than about me. I should have dropped it at that point, but I didn’t. After a few more goings-out, in which he said things about being fond of me and that he “couldn’t put into words what it means to have me back in his life,” I finally said, don’t say flirty things if you don’t mean them, ask me out if you mean them. He asked me out, then cancelled, I was still warm and fuzzy because he’d asked me out, and then I was like, shit. No. Call me and follow up if you want to see me again. He has not.
It was never defined. I felt like he spoke up about interest before I did, but I did all the following up on it. When he didn’t call, I didn’t call.
I feel exactly as NML describes, lurching between being like, “we barely hung out, he decided he wasn’t interested and did the kind thing by just not calling, I can be mature about it” and “motherfucker knows he said he was into me, knows that I was not in it just for the fooling around, why do I feel so misled and fucked about?”
I felt like unfriending was too harsh, too dramatic, but in the end I’m the one having a strong reaction and feeling as though everything I post on FB is still for his benefit, so I just unfriended. There’s barely a difference in my experience because his texts and response times had dropped off pretty steeply. It’s really for me; now I don’t feel like I’m performing how ok I am on FB.
Anyway, I’m a little blindsided at how much this barely-there ambiguous “thing” knocked me for a loop. I have been reading and rereading Mr. U and the FBG and just downloaded the NC book, which I hadn’t read before and is great.
Thanks NML for the reminders that it’s ok to feel messed up, that it’s ok to do whatever it takes to take care of me, and that I can survive him just not being into me. I’ve been wanting to make him out to be a total assclown, but that feels untrue; it’s been a challenge to reconcile feeling messed about with my sense that he wasn’t a total asshole, just a dude who put out a few flirty things and then sat back and reaped everything I laid out for him, until I asked him to step up and reciprocate.
More than anything I’ve struggled with my anger at myself that I did lay myself out for him to enjoy for three more dates before I wised up, and that a guy I don’t think is a total asshole clearly doesn’t want to pursue anything with me. I feel like I traded a bit of self-humiliation for the the only kisses and hugs I’ve had in four years. Makes me feel desperate and sad. But in the end I’m already on the NC bandwagon, getting back to focusing on me and on the fact that I DID take that step back and I did so without erupting in anger, telling him all about himself, demonizing him, or otherwise embarrassing myself further.
Magnolia,
Give yourself a break!
Magnolia, I relate to what you are saying. And to LilDebby’s thought about being so lonely that we shower the “bestower of crumbs” with our eagerness. They are just doing what they do – they just go along with our designed program, never giving any more than they originally planned.
We create these no-win situations…that is…until we become more self-aware and secure enough to nip those unworkable situations in the bud and walk away EARLY.
Wow…my dumb phone just broke up with my ambiguous partner’s smart phone. the number of texts exchanged daily, over 5 months, was astonishing…clearly that amount of effort by him must have meant that I was important and valued by this man..right?? I convinced myself that he would not be spending that much of his time on me unless there was some kind of “true connection????” That would make sense.
He is a sweet and charming man and a popular media personality. It was flattering to me to get his attention and I “drank the kool aid.” It was slow at first but then became very intense..and my confusion became constant..My giddiness turned to frustration, sadness and insomnia…I tried to make sense out of something that would never make sense. I would attempt to communicate honestly. Everything I shared was subsequently, strategically used against me, in a highly manipulative way. I had no idea if we were friends or love interests – it would change every time I saw him. I finally asked some serious questions during a face to face conversation and before I knew it I was tossed to the curb, told our relationship was shallow and that he was not a shallow man. I was floored, caught off guard and devastated. He was un-phased but has not texted me since..Ouch!!! I look back to the first 30 days when I felt uneasy and confused and told myself to walk away. I ask myself why I did not follow my gut..4 months later, I am taking a step back. I have wasted so much of my very valuable time and am now having the imagination hangover. I hope there is Assclown Anonymous near my house. My dumb phone needs a support network…lol.
Don’t be too hard on yourself, Michelle. And think of the savings on your phone plan!
My ex-EUM was a textaholic, but I let it happen, because I was EU myself. I still am, but I’m now completely and utterly out of the closet about it, celebrating it, rejoicing in it – and using it as a springboard to becoming Emotionally Available to a whole range of people who are not and never will be my partners.
Was just thinking this very morning about how a partner would get in the way of my being able to listen to, support, hang out with, and go to group events with actual real live other people who I care about, and who care about me. I logged on to the PC at home and thought,
‘Now if I were on the market, I’d be checking my gmail frantically right now to see if anyone had contacted me via DoofusMatch/ScareycatSingles/LastChanceSaloon.com/some other stupid dating site. And my happiness for the day would rise or fall on whether anyone had …’
And so I heaved a huge sigh of relief, and went and had a shower instead.
I like you Ethelreda alot! Laughing again. A real warm shower IS better than any virtual lover’s drool!
Michelle L is your ‘personality’ Russell Brand by any chance????
He is playing you – even in rejecting you! His shallow line is exactly that – a line to keep you hooked. This man is not worth one hair on your head let alone a fantasy relationship. A caring man, if he wasn’t interested, would tell you thank you but I’m not interested, and leave your ego as intact as is possible without being cruel – a shallow man doesn’t.
You might also want to re – evaluate just exactly what charm is and what it is truely for – in my experience it is certainly not for showing anyone the truth of the matter and generally masks extreme cruelty and control issues.
Why are you ignoring your own feelings? That is serious and dangerous! This fool is yesterdays front page news – always.
Thanks for the affirmation. I was just beginning to thrive as a new business when my first email from this man arrived on Memorial Day morning, during his radio show. I had never met him – ever..I was not sure how to take it…then he began to contact me daily..I still had never met him.. The emails turned to texts, when he asked for my cell phone number..I went 6 weeks after that before ever meeting him. He was “sweet, charming” seemed totally smitten. Right before I met him, he sent a very crude text that shocked me (he is a very wholesome radio guy image) his text was nasty and creepy. I was unnerved. He swore it was a typo… I knew better.. denied it anyway. Interesting thing, I was becoming more confused and exhausted and thinking less clearly…that pattern became so much more intense… it was very strange. But, I do recognize that I have my issues being available. I need work. Every time I deal with an assclown like this, it sets me back. This man was not my type at all – physically…very overweight…but his personality, ego and ability to be charming and manipulative…drew me in. He never had one ounce of interest in me…it was all an ego game for him…After 5 months of constant texts and several face to face meetings (although brief) – he is gone – poof – because I confronted him and shared my expectations… Expectations are against the rules – which were never established. I do believe he is a narcissist and was truly abusing me emotionally. I’m not sure why he picked me.. my Linked-In profile must have screamed co-dependence. I do have a good sense of humor, and fortunately have connected with some great ladies in my business endeavors who are supportive, although they do not know what they are supporting in me…I am too ashamed to admit it. I got played, and used, and am deeply hurt. I am afraid to share the true story because he is so well known locally. If I did anything to tarnish his stellar image, I think he could be dangerous…He has already been dangerous…In addition to being a Media Personality he is a Politician. I am a former Flag Twirler from the University of Alabama…I am seeing and twirling many red flags and I am going to keep on marching forward…as fast as I can
Maybe this is why some of these ACs have no shame–they’re crazy.
I am beginning to think that I am crazy. It has been a week since my EUM told me our relationship was shallow and I fell apart emotionally. After 5 months of constant texting, and me feeling bewildered, he has disappeared.. The only text I got from him was on Saturday Morning, when he was about to give his only daughter away at her wedding. He texted me and said – “Miss U – Have a Nice Weekend – I’ll text when I can.” The funny thing is it made me happy that he got in touch with me…but I have not heard from him since….I don’t expect to. I think I he did it to be cruel, and to remind me that Iam not part of his high profile life..Perhaps I am being punished for walking away – maybe not. So yes, it is me too…not just him. I need to deal with why I feel that this is what I think I deserve in my life. In the meantime, I have been working on a business project and have been doing an outstanding job. I hope that opportunities will come out of it for me. I am trying to hold on tight to my self esteem and keep moving forward, one day at a time. It’s hard…so thank you for your support ladies…and Natalie!! I need to be careful because even with the business venture, people take advantage of my good nature…I volunteer my time to help them make money. I want to learn, and am learning…when to look in the mirror and value myself..I wish it did not take me this long to get to where I am now. If it were not for the EUM, I never would have found this site. Maybe that is what the Universe had in mind when he was sent my way…
The Whoopi Goldberg line completely stuck it for me-what a fantastic grin at myself. I’m remembering this for future reference.
Lisa said it well… One of the hardest things about reality is facing our own selves. Being real about our own issues, and having the courage to be kind to ourselves in spite of our short comings. Believing that we deserve our own love and respect.
Every single day is an opportunity to notice something good about yourself. I’m liking myself more and more these days. It’s nice to be there. It’s a good start!
Thank you to every single one of you ladies out there who are brave enough to speak out. You are paving the way for so many others.
I just recently started listening to the Kelly Clarkson song Walk Away. I love the line where she says
“If you don’t have the answer, why are you still standing here? Just walk away”
A great reminder…if you find yourself waiting, wondering and wanting you most likely need to walk away.
Stay strong and keep YOU at the top of your list. And Whoopi on your shoulder. Grin.
Wow this came at the perfect Time! We had a big fight last night about his ambiguity and I told him I’d had enough. I’m not sure I can go through with NC but regardless I’m doing me. I resisted the urge to contact him for most of the day by focusing on me. I exercised, cleaned house and talked to a few good friends. It’s getting easier everyday. I’m not sure what to do if he actually steps up but I will deal with that if it comes.
Many years ago a dear, very wise male friend of mine reminded me of a simple guideline (for men especially). IF IT’S NOT A YES, IT’S A NO. For me, if a man is not stepping up and taking action in a sincere, caring way, why waste your time WONDERING what’s going on? Really…if you have to wonder so much…there’s nothing there for you…move on or date others. It’s really very simple. We make it too hard on ourselves and get caught up in the ambiguity.
Brilliant advice ‘if it’s not a yes its a no’ thank you.
A ‘yes’ with no followup action is also a ‘no,’ IME.
A “yes” followed by any kind of bewildering action that doesn’t match is also a no…
What if an AC you dated only a handful of times, years ago, photobombs you? Yep. The AC sits, smiling in the background–directly at the camera (at the viewer), my toddler being in the foreground. (Someone else took the photo.) WHY is he doing this? (Yes, he did know I liked him. As for him, he didn’t know what he wanted–me!–until I was out the door. He even showed up on one of my dates, to get me to leave my date.)
Oh, and he’s married. With 2 kids.
WHY are YOU doing this? Used? Is the real question here.
Used, there is no what if..he is married, end of.
???
What are you saying? That I want to take action on this? If anything, what he did makes me feel very uncomfortable. I am cutting him out of the photo. He screwed it up!
I want to know where HE is at. First, what is he trying to tell me? (Has he no shame?) Second, what does he think my mindset is at? (OMG, maybe it’s where you think my mindset is at.)
I am shocked and surprised and confused. Sorry if I am being/sounding naive.
Wrong start–should not have started with “what if”. Just needed some interpretation here. Especially because others (including my own husband!) will see what he is doing in this photo. The ambiguity arises because this guy acts like I am chasing him in front of his wife. For example, he approaches me when I am turning and leaving a table (I don’t see him approaching), and acts like I am trying to bump into him. Things like that. I am always cold with him.
Wow. What a dickhead.
I think you can do a lot better than someone else’s second-hand goods, don’t you?
Used…sorry for the misunderstanding 🙂 as Ethelreda says he sounds like a right dickhead, he’s just playing little games but the problem with these games is that they are upsetting you and that’s not right, can you not talk to your husband about it? Getting it out in the open and having support may scare him off. Guy sounds like a total douche bag.
Used: I think he’s trying to be funny (was he the sort to disguise insults with ‘a joke’?)in a cruel way. Getting people whispering about YOUR so called attachment to him when it is clear that he cannot sever ties with you, but he can’t own those feelings. He probably relishes in the idea of causing an argument between you and your husband over him. He needs an ego trip and the photobombing is a sure way of getting up in your face, and smugly enjoying your squirming at the discovery of it. Ha! He got a reaction out of you!, sort of thing. I would think of something really ice cold to have ready to say to him for his next accidentally on purpose run in with you that lets him know in no uncertain terms how unwelcome his predictable and transparent fascination with you is. Name and shame his actions, and speak them loudly enough to embarass him in company.
Thank you, CJ, Sandy, Oona, Ethelreda.
CJ, yes, he did disguise insults with a “joke”–how did you guess?!
I already did comment smartly on one of the accidentally-on purpose run-ins. He was so shocked that he turned a 180 on his heels; and at that time, and ever since, every time I see him looking at me, he looks at me like he hates me and wants to kill me. Why? When I try to be the bigger person, he ignores me: he talks to the host of the party when he knows I am about to leave and have to say goodbye to the host; so I have to say “hi” to him–but he won’t say “hi” back–instead, he looks at me like he hates my guts. Why? HE is the one who was a total AC when we went out. I was, of course, way too nice. Until I decided to walk…without giving him any notice.
Just keep reminding yourself of his irrelevance and try not to entertain his antics, with less attention he will be less motivated to act like that towards you. He is seeking out opportunities to get under your nose and you need to demonstrate it is futile so he will bore and eventually move on to other ways to entertain himself. You don’t need to greet him, if he is ever in your way when you need to do something or speak to the hostess he’s hanging around, a polite ‘excuse me’ as you whisk her away will suffice.
Thank you.
So funny. My name here is “Used” because he used me to get her (his wife) back! He may have developed feelings. Fine. But, when we first went out, he was dating many women (I found out later) and in the process of getting over her (who he cheated on, as well).
Once an AC, always an AC.
He doesn’t want to let you go because you dared to leave him. Obviously he’s a control freak who hates that his nice, kind, understanding (that’s how you acted) fallback toy and doormat (that’s how he saw you) left him. Well done!
Used, it’s a control issue with these AC creeps, they hate the fact that we move on and become happy without them as apparently he may have his wife back but he doesn’t seem happy about it…tough, don’t let him get to you, just ignore his stubid arse.
FYI: when we dated, we (him, me, and his then-ex, now wife) were all single/never-married. I got married first. He got married a few years later, to this his on-again, off-again FBG.
Still, same difference.
Used- Who cares what’s going on in his head? He is married. YOU are married. This guy sounds controlling and the stalking type. Please talk to your husband about what this guy is doing and document each incident. You may need it for the police report, should it come to that.
Rosie,
As to how I view him overall, I have always seen him as an arrogant, selfish jerk. Who, when he was single, purposefully set out to establish himself as a man who can (and did) string along many women. I found out years later that he told a mutual friend about how he dated a bunch of women–h even named their names, including mine.
I never thought that he would carry this over into married life. AND, at the same time, he wants to be friends, as he now has 2 daughters who–BTW–he doesn’t want to be affected by his past.
Nice for him–and these types of guys–isn’t it! They want it their way, all around.
A friend has the same concern that you all have–that he is a stalker/controlling/ possessive type–that I could never be in a situation where we’d be alone–and I thought she was overreacting. Maybe I should take heed. I always thought it was just about image for him.
I did always think he was a bit nuts, though.
Get a restraining order or protective order on him. He’s stalking you . Why? Who knows. Maybe to make his wife jealous, maybe to make your husband jealous, maybe to freak you out and intimidate you, or, maybe because it feeds his ego and need for attention. Doesn’t matter. There is something really wrong with him, he’s not wrapped quite right.
He’s mad because I am not becoming buddy-buddy with him. I am holding him responsible for how he treated me in the past.
When his wife is not with him (at an event, party, or the like), he never approaches to talk to me. He’ll be in my face. But he doesn’t approach.
But he always positions himself where he keeps an eye on me, and can see what I am doing. It’s so weird. And, as I said, since my smart remark, he looks at me like he hates me or is angry with me–sometimes with a smile.
I think it’s all about intimidation. And his ego. He hates how I completely ignore him, and am holding him 100% responsible for his actions in the past. I would bet that a lot of other people let it all go.
I will be seeing him a lot in the future. He knows many people in common with me. I plan on ignoring him completely, on not being the bigger person in any way, from now on.
Then again, if he wants me/us to become “buds” with him, why would he ignore me when I say “hello”?
Yes, not wrapped right IS right.
But whatever the case, he wants it all HIS way. Whatever that “way” is that makes sense to him and his marriage.
Twisted. Crazy.
It’s been a rough year for me after coming out of one of these “relationships.” Everything in this post is so spot on & intellectually I knew all these things while I was in whatever-the-hell that was. Actually, I know exactly what the hell it was for him: fun sex & all the perks of having a gf whenever he got bored/lonely. I tried to get him to admit that several times. I would’ve loved the honesty & clarity. But no. Instead I had a year & a half of being his yo-yo. I wish I had been stronger & walked away, but hindsight is always 20/20, etc.
One thought that was shared with me that has helped me forgive myself for being such a doormat is this: Everyone is only responsible for their 50% of any given relationship. I’m responsible for my half ONLY. Yes, I made several mistakes, but he definitely made his, too, and I am NOT responsible for his b.s. and actions (regardless of trying to blame everything on me). What’s important now that it’s all over with is for me to investigate why I put up with such wishy-washy crap all in the name of a good lay every now and then. It wasn’t worth the price of my self esteem, self respect, or dignity. There’s nothing wrong with a clearly defined & mutually agreed upon FWB situation. That situation is actually a better relationship than what I put myself through; there’s the whole “friend” concept in a FWB deal. What I was in was an illusion of a relationship as I did fall in love & kept hoping for him to wake up, I guess. I wanted for him to see what he had with me. He never did, of course. I was the ultimate fall-back girl.
It’s been rough emotionally with grieving the loss of my fantasy hopes and whatever the connection was between us. I’m now fully NC for over 6 months and it has been brutal. But for anyone out there who is in one of this “whatchmacallit” situations but is wishing for a happy ending? Really think about how little it would take to rock the boat of your circumstances with this person. The reason you don’t want to push for a clear definition of what’s going on is probably because you know whatever it is you are doing with that person, clearly defining it would mean the end of what you are hoping for. And it’s really ok that you wanted more, and losing it sucks, but it’s so not worth all the pain and heartache. You’ll get through it. Gather what’s left of you & get out while you can on YOUR terms.
Thanks to everyone else for sharing. It helps to know others understand!
My story is exactly the same (surprise!). His behavior, my thoughts/feelings, everything. I don’t know if it’s comforting or extremely depressing that this is such a common experience for women.
Why would any man commit to a woman when they can get “the girlfriend experience” completely on their terms? All the perks, none of the responsibility. It sucks.
Yes! That is exactly what I told him during the bitter end; that I was nothing more than “the girlfriend experience” for him. He denied & denied it, but having lived it, that’s all he really ever wanted from me. I wish he would’ve just paid for a professional & left me out of it. You are exactly right: all the perks, none of the responsibility. Why would they step up? Ugh.
I’m so glad you replied; I’m sorry it happened to you, too, but I hope we’ve emerged much stronger & wiser. At least the hell of being in limbo is over.
Laura, was he perhaps making you the other woman? A year and a half of wishy washy whatyoumaycall it is a very long time for that sort of arrangement. Did you ever suspect him of cheating or being a cheat?
No, I wasn’t the other woman. There is more to the story I won’t go into, but I always knew that he wasn’t committing to me for the simple reason he wanted to keep his options open. I was someone to play with until he found something better. He would have “cheated” (but that implies commitment, yes?) but no one else took the bait.
It was a very long time of me being a fool, but I’m thankful it’s over now. And I understand through the grapevine that he’s found his “soul mate” (of course he has!). Glad I prepped him for her – bleh. I know I’m better off now. Still sucks sometimes.
Laura said “the reason you don’t want to push for a clear definition of what’s going on is probably because you know whatever it is you are doing with that person, clearly defining it would mean the end of what you are hoping for.”
Yep, that resonated with me. Defining the situation forces you to consider that things are precisely as you see them. It forces you to face your fears. Humans are very complex creatures.
I wonder how a goldfish would deal with these issues 🙂
Perfect! Only 2 days ago, I settled once and for all on ending a whatchamacallit that had been occupying my mind for too long. In the time we spent together, he would be incredibly warm and hint at closeness and some future, we would talk about very personal things like our upbringing. We seemed to have a strong understanding of each other and so much in common.
But we never talked about any possibility of a relationship. It never even got close to that, but my fantasy glands were producing crazy ideas of our exciting life together one day, I thought of him all the time. Then I learned once and for all that he was all hot air. He’d told me how much he wanted to live and work in my area, I told him of an opportunity, and he didn’t follow it up. I realised he isn’t interested at all, he’s just a disingenuous person who probably makes many people feel like they have a special connection.
In the time I’ve known him, he’s been unreliable and ambiguous, and I realised this could never change. I know my values now and I can only ever spend my life with someone who can offer me stability. I had a celebratory glass of wine to mark my freedom. Yes I got stung again, unbelievable after what I’ve already been through, but being out of it is better than being on his BS cycle, and I’ve really learned something. The ex AC wasn’t a one-off but there are plenty of others out there who are happy to lead people with open hearts on a merry dance for no good reason.
I’m talking to a guy who is kind of like this. We starting talking on Tinder and have been texting for 5 weeks and he has yet to call me on the phone (he says he has phone anxiety) or try to setup a date. He is working like 6 days a week and lives 2 hours away and told me he needs time to decide if things could possibly work out between us. He said he’s worried he won’t have the ability to give this the time and attention it deserve. I’m kind of unsure about what to do because he has apologized and he told me he doesn’t blame me for being impatient, but he needs some time to think things through and decide what he wants to do. I know I shouldn’t leave the decision-making up to him, but it’s hard for me to just drop him because we have texted about everything under the sun and it seems like we really click mentally.
Samantha,
Texting is not any kind of relationship! Good God, he won’t even talk to you on the phone.
He has no intention of meeting you, but enjoys the attention he receives.
I am curious as to why this is enough for you. He has shown little interest in meeting, and that he doesn’t have time. You also live two hours away from one another. This is going no where.
I think you need to ask yourself why you are wasting your time with this. This is nothing, and the writing is on the wall!
He also sounds as if he is married, or very strange: doesn’t talk on phone because of anxiety. C’mon.
Samantha, read NML’s stuff on fantasy relationships. Or read He’s Just Not That Into You. Texting for 5 weeks isn’t a promise or foundation of anything. I would let this person go. Btw, why use Tinder if you’re looking for something serious and loving?
so, to sum up,mhe doesn’t have time to meet up with you but he’s got enough time for all those texts and mental connections? also, do you actually need a guy who’s got no time for you?
Just today it occurred to me that the “mental chemistry” that I felt was so special with ACMM…well…I felt that same “mental chemistry”, that “quick repartee” with the new potential AC I met two weeks ago. And I realized something. I am the common denominator in both those interactions, which means, I possess natural quick wit, I am fun to talk to. Those talents are in ME. It’s not some *magic* that the AC brings.
Elgie R- I read all your comments because I relate to something you share in almost all your comments (your comment that maybe if you don’t move, he’ll stay longer was painful to read. My heart broke for you as I’ve had that same experience.). This comment is one of my favorites because it’s really showing how much your learning to like yourself. You like your intelligence, positive attitude (from a previous comment) and quick wit. May I add that I, a reader of your comments, appreciates how articulately you write your thoughts and experiences and appreciate the time you take to read and reply to other hurting souls here? Thank you.
Thanks, Rosie. I believe I said in an earlier post, weeks ago, that I relate to your words, too.
Why did we settle for so little? (sigh)
Well, no more…for either of us!
I agree with the other ladies… phone anxiety? It’s a line. Have you ever decided to call him up randomly without warning and see how he handles it? (Why wait for him to?) Just to prove to yourself how well he can handle a telephone conversation. It’s definitely a red flag, he is not as available as he makes himself out to be and you need to read between the lines – he already says he wont have the ability to give it the time and attention it deserves(read: he is involved with somebody else), so what are you being strung along for? Scraps to fall off the table? You are even settling for him not calling you, he is conditioning you to take those crumbs and make a meal out of them. This is not what you need. Move on to somebody who is real, available, and doesn’t have any tele’phoney’ phobias.
Samantha, I agree with the others, and I have no respect for those who are too chickensh*t to communicate properly. You really do not know this person, flush!
Give the man a break. He may not know how to use a phone.:)
I do not own a cell phone, and I think I have only used one twice. I was so ashamed asking my co-worker how to operate that stupid thing. They are so small and awkward to me, and I have slender fingers. I have never texted either……lol
So he may have legitimate issues with using a phone…..he may have a phobia, you know all those waves going through you ear, might clear a few cobwebs during the action. I dunno……whatever next!!!
Do we have a humorous thread addressing the funniest excuses for not being available?
Good grief! I wish I had access to Baggage Reclaim YEARS ago! Could have saved myself loads of emotional pain.
Amen to that. But I probably wouldn’t have listened …
It has been a long way up to here, with so many challanges that I never thought they existed, and all I have been doing is work, work and work on myself. I remember quite well that:
Phase 1. I could not see/think of “ME” without being his woman
Phase 2. I did not want to think of him having another woman (jealousy)
Phase 3. I used to curse him, did not wish him any luck because I was hurting that much for the first time in my life, because of ‘wrong’ love.
Phase 4. I wanted him to see that I did not perish, I really wanted him to see that I survived.
Phase 5. Now I do not care whether he is happy, miserable or whatever is going on in his life.
I still have a long way to go, but now he is not important anymore. Yes, I still think about him, but the impact is not the same, and all because of this site. Thanks so much, it is like I will be myself again. I wish and pray, even though it is not easy
Good for you! That’s fantastic. Keep it up.
Amen! I cut contact with my ex-RUN and blocked the number prior to my birthday…. so proud of myself! Well, a friend of mine had posted a pic from Halloween and he “liked” it (btw, I am not on Facebook anymore because I crave reality). First of all, upon recognition of this “like”, my gut immediately dropped. Then, my mind went off into overdrive and
started to obsess about how he must miss me. Reality check: It’s Facebook. We are not together. He broke off our engagement and then strung me along while dating someone else. Yes, I played my part, but a large part of me was conditioned to this buckshot. I am making progress. No more games for this chick. I’m staying in reality, even if it takes work. Thanks for this post Nat!!
RUN = EUM
buckshot = bullshit
RUN=EUM
Girl, you said a mouthful there! What a good formula.
Ugh. I have been dealing with one of these for the past three months, and lord knows I should know and do better, but I don’t. He came on hot and heavy and I tried to stave off the sex for as long as I could be I eventually buckled. We had sex a half dozen times and then he started pulling away. This coincided with his receiving the divorce papers. He and his ex have been separated for a almost two years. Anyway, we had some kind of talk about ending our sexual relationship and it’s turned purely platonic. Meanwhile he calls and texts and I sometimes feel like I’m his emotional tampon. We basically see each other on his terms. And basically the only reason I linger is I want him to want to see how wonderful and great I am and continue our sexual relationship. The worst thing about it is I have some stupid fantasy that I’d want an actual relationship with this person. Intellectually, I know it’d be horrible. He’s a mooch, irresponsible, immature — I would come last on his priority list, and yet, my ego feels this way because I feel rejected by him. To make matters worse, I am just ending my own divorce, so I feel totally triggered by all the shit and rejection I’m dealing with him. I want to end it but I don’t want to seem psycho, as NML has suggested. I mean, we don’t have a relationship at all, but why does he call and text? I’m tired of being his crutch. How do I end it? We’re supposed to go to a football game with his kids next week and I really don’t want to. The thought of it is exhausting. I want to text him and tell him I need a break from him and send him the tickets. Ugh, do we ever learn?
Meg,
Do just that. You should never do anything you don’t want to do.
You have no obligation here. End it!
Meg, you have my sympathies as I went through enough emotion and pain in my non-relationship without the sex.
Don’t go to the game, you don’t need to have a heart to heart with him or answer to him – he hasn’t earned this right. Ending it is not about what you tell him, but about ending your own ideas that this will ever be a relationship, removing the ‘what ifs’ or ‘if only’. Once you come to terms with this, it will be easier to draw yourself away without any drama, just close yourself off to this pain.
Meg, I agree with Allison, you are under no obligation at all and if thats how it is making you feel then you need to do what is best for YOU.
Meg you have been downgraded to his mummy.
‘You are sure the game will be amazing but you aren’t really interested, here are the tickets I hope you enjoy yourself’ – if you are questioned repeat yourself once and leave/stop the call/don’t text back, then non contact to free yourself – he knows what he is asking from you and he will understand what he is giving is not good enough for you but he will still want his cake and eat it at the same time – do NOT explain yourself, ramble on with excuses – the more you give him in the way of explanation the more rope for yourself – if he doesn’t know now what you want he never will.
or
‘you have realized you will be busy and are unable to go’ then non contact – its no lie – you will be busy reminding yourself who you really are, what you really want and what you won’t put up with and as a matter of urgency!
Meg if you’re just coming out of a divorce, are you sure you need a relationship now? Maybe you’re trying to make too much out of it to fill a void? I mean perhaps just being friends is good for both of you, which is probably why he calls and texts, for companionship? If as you say he makes you feel bad, examine what your expectations are, and if they are reasonable. Did having sex make you fall harder than you should have and ruin the possibility of just being friends? It is good at this time to get out and have both male and female friends, and I just don’t want you to throw a friendship away because you made it out to be more than it was.
Wow! Natalie, you should have written this article about 2-3 years ago! 😀 It perfectly describes a situation I was in, for almost 2 years. The final straw, after a long series of ambiguos episodes, which made me “step up” and have the final, decisive conversation was him starting a relationship with another girl. I did step back for about 6 months afterwards, in order to grieve and move on. It was like a break-up,only that I really did not feel any guilt/remorse/concern about how he perceived me at all. I had my “enough is enough” moment, and for me the best thing was to step back and go no-contact. In the aftermath, he had a couple of feeble and childish attempts to attract attention/restart contact, but I didn’t give in. Then, 6 months later, when I was fine and over it, I restarted contact. Now we’re cool, we’re REALLY just friends. We talk, but not too often (it’s also a long distance ), and there are some platonic boundaries which are not being overstepped. However, sometimes he says strange things, or tends to slip down the overly-sentimental slope again, but I laugh it off and not take him seriously. Romantically speaking, I’m not in love with him anymore, and I’m not sure I would still consider him, even if he showed definite interest. He’s a good kid (yes, a kid: he’s 26 now 😛 ), but maybe a little immature, and maybe not the right person for me. 😉
I had my “enough is enough” moment.
Had that too it’s really weird becasue I was in that for so long, I really forgot what it was like to feel normal, it all started with so many many losses, then here comes this fellow right at my highest time where I can pretty much empathize with any damn thing, I could have empathized with how a turtle feels having to carry that shell around and cried for it, I mean I was that sensitive to others feelings for some stupid reason and I lost me somehow in the picture.
Have no idea, I just don’t ever want to go back there again.
yeah, I definitely felt in danger, not the romantic feeling it was supposed to be, more like vomiting. I think he was sleeping with other women while being “flattering” with me. I’m happy that I didn’t let the bla bla keep on meddling in my life. Flush!
I think this post is awesome! I wonder if it’s possible to get this until you get it.. I guess it comes down to loving yourself first. Reminds me of something that happened to me a while back. I had a work crush. He was tall, witty, and kind. I liked the way his eyes crinkled at the corners when he smiled and laughed. We enjoyed sharing different types of tea, and drinking said tea together. I began building castles in the sky, and he was my prince come to rescue me from a dull existence. I decided to do something about it because I started feeling unsafe inside. It reminded me too much of how every other failed relationship in my life had started: the drama of not knowing whether we’re friends, or potential lovers, or just coworkers who like to drink tea and chat. I wrote a little note, letting him know that I found him attractive and would like to get to know him better outside of work. He had his male co-worker explain to me that while he found me quite attractive, he was already in a relationship. It hurt to be let down, but I was so glad I decided to do right by me and get things settled one way or another. When I curbed my enthusiasm, he began turning up the charm. He told me that he wanted the chance to explain to me himself about his “situation.” I felt special for about half an hour, then my brain caught up to my feelings and reminded me that if he’d wanted to explain he’d had lots of time and opportunity. Nothing was stopping him but him. And all of a sudden, the crush was over. I was glad I’d not wasted any more time mooning over him, inflating his ego with my time and my tea. I don’t play about my tea. 🙂
Mildred, great work! You got off the merry-go-round before the ride began!
Sounds to me like your work friend knew he was planting seeds of romantic hope. Probably played that game many times. Keeping things just on the “edge” of romantic interest. He surely knows women find him very attractive, all he has to do is be extra nice and “boom” – a woman will fall in love. Then he can step back and say “please don’t misunderstand….I’m taken”. He’s a practiced flirt. Not condemning him, just calling him out. He proved it by blowing hotter when you cooled your jets. He’s an AC in training.
In the early days of ACMM, after a year of hot pursuit where I did not say yes to anything ACMM suggested, when I had sense and knew a rattlesnake when I saw one…I let my guard down and let him take me to lunch where the first thing he said after the waitress took our order was “I AM NEVER LEAVING MY WIFE”. So he knew he flirted with me and teased me and pursued me only to have me as “extra” in his life. So…your guy knew he was how his actions might encourage you…he was just waiting for his chance to say “sorry, I’m taken!”.
Elgie, I am totally with you on this interpretation! My own happilly-girlfriended-ex-EUM invited me to his apartment the first night we officially went out and we stayed up late and although nothing physical has happened (it was our first ‘date’) he has not mentioned his gf once. I learned of her existence only weeks later. So yeah, there are different grades of those ACs but they are playas big time. Some more subtle, some less. Good for you you opted out so early and did not spend any extra time decoding him.
Hello, Why. Sorry to confess that I did not opt out of the madness then. I went for the casual hook-up and stayed with it for two years….during which time I dated others, but the hook-up with the ACMM was damaging nonetheless. Then there was a 13 year break….and then I called him to resume the FWB, which lasted four years, and brought me to BR.
So I am proof that – If you don’t learn the lesson, you are destined to repeat it.
For me, I have learned I need to honor MY need to be emotionally connected . I did not get that need fulfilled in childhood, I learned to live with crumbs, so as an adult I’ve continued with the old programming.
Time for NEW programming and BR taught me that. BR taught me that I have control over the program.
It is frustrating that these no good men are so appealing.
I too have gone back to the same person after breaks and have never fully shaken the habit of accepting his crumbs.
I seem to run into nothing BUT this type for years at a time, to the point where a certain kind of flirty approach turns me off pre-emptively because it feels like the same thing AGAIN.
You can also learn alot about a person’s character when it comes to issue of their interest. A person who takes advantages you even though they know their not interested is an a#%hole. Regardless, of how you feel they would not take this as an opportunity to take advantage of you. If they do, then you need to run fast.
Now a person who tells you that tells you directly or indirectly that they are not interesed at least has a conscience. Now when I say “indirectly”, I mean if a person dosen’t call you or come and see you then YOU should take that as a hint they are not interested!! Some people are just not good at having the talk and this is where you need to pay attention to actions. I would rather a person just leave me alone and disappear, then come in and out of my life when they feel like it and playing with my emotions.
I have a friend who always said that ‘some men chase women they don’t want for the same reasons dogs chase cars they can’t drive’
How perfect? After the last couple posts that helped me see my way through to committing to divorcing my husband of 15 years, here’s one to help me with my other relationship problem — my “online buffer/ other man” that I am still interested in but now have a much better informed idea of what I may be dealing with, and how to handle it.
Working my way through this article and the linked ones has given me another load of stuff to work out and untangle, so I am working on learning how to stop being ambiguous myself (i.e., getting clear about what I need and want, and learning to express that authentically and directly) so I can then stop other people from being ambiguous with me.
I just untangled myself from a situation where I was seeing an assclown from my work who after 6 weeks threw me these lines when I questioned whether there was someone else…”I don’t want to jump into anything too serious’, ‘let’s see how this goes’, ‘I’m taking each day at a time’. Not long after I found out he was seeing another colleague..and god knows who else. It’s kind of ego bruising because he ‘dumped me’ when I challenged him about vagueness, yet he’s still seeing that other girl. It’s a bit tiring meeting guys who try and use you as a side piece. Anyways arghhhhhhhhhh honestly I thought this kind of lingo is left back in highschool.. but no this is how some of the ‘men’ I have met this year have behaved. With thanks to this blog and the comments, it becomes easier to see clarity and RUN when any malarkey, wishy washy lingo is thrown my way 🙂
wow, i’m glad i came across this tonight. I’m still trying to make sense of the non-relationship i had with my ex-boss.
we’d worked together for three years until this last summer. i wasn’t interested in him at all initially, although i did feel a strong connection (which i assumed to be platonic). my spidey senses told me he liked me more than that but i ignored them, and anyway he had a girlfriend at the time. i went through a lot in my personal life, and he was my rock; in a large part due to his patience, kindness and support i climbed out of a really shitty time in my life, and really started thriving personally and professionally. when he and his gf broke up last year, i really started to–at the very back of my mind where it could be conveniently ignored–realize there definitely seemed to be some feelings developing on his end. he didn’t say anything and was always careful to be respectful, but i just knew…previous experiences with other guy “friends”. he was very much friend-zoned and was my emotional punching bag as i went through all this personal shit. i was kind of an asshole for a while and i regret that now. i just tried to think about everything as little as possible, because i didn’t want to face the truth or my own feelings.
but around this last spring sometime, after finally getting rid of another unhealthy “relationship”, i realized that i also felt pretty strongly about him. i fell really really hard for him…but he was still my boss. my company has pretty strict anti-fraternizing policies, so there was no way in hell it could happen. but we nonetheless began to shamelessly flirt and spend pretty much every waking moment at work together, carefully avoiding crossing certain lines. something was definitely growing between us though, and i looked forwards to whenever i got promoted (which was slated to happen the moment a position opened).
so imagine my surprise in early summer when he tells me he is interviewing for another job, a lateral move for more pay in a different company. At first I was elated, because this also meant i’d be finally getting my promotion. what he failed to mention was he was also getting back together with his ex-girlfriend, and i wouldn’t even find out about that until weeks later. until i knew, his behavior didn’t even change at all even though he was now back with her…in fact, he had been acting more loving than ever. and i think i only even found out then because it came out accidentally in a conversation with a mutual coworker. i was completely blindsided. after that i didn’t speak to him at all for days i was so furious. he tried to allude to me being very confused about his feelings , but i was still too angry to entertain the conversation. he was a snake in the grass; but i was more furious at myself for getting myself in a situation where i was the OW for the second time (albeit unintentionally).
we eventually started speaking again, but in the couple weeks leading up to his departure, he definitely went back and forth between loving and distant. and then he was gone. (at least i did end up getting his job.)
i (wrongly) assumed we’d at least be friends, even if it’d hurt for a while, i would rather have him in my life as a friend than not at all. he friended me on FB, and the couple times i reached out to him would always text back right away, but never initiated any other contact at all, which was very unlike him up to that point. and although was always perfectly polite when i’d text, he kept the conversations short. i got the hint…he wanted to move on with his life without me, but didn’t want to actually have the conversation with me about it. it fucking hurt, especially since he was still in very regular contact with his other previous co-workers, who not knowing better would always mention having talked to him to me. i was so hurt and felt betrayed; we had always been able to talk through conflicts before, but he was choosing to just walk away. i may have been in love with him, but losing him as one of my best friends was far worse. we work in a very intense field and we went through a lot of shit together in 3 years, even some life-threatening situations. has he really just moved on that easily? because i’m devastated. on some level i understand the necessity, but it doesn’t make me any less angry about it.
meanwhile his existence on FB was making me more miserable, as like an idiot i was torturing myself by obsessively looking at his page and the pictures his gf was constantly uploading of the two of them. i’m fairly certain he had probably just friended me on FB to be able to discreetly keep tabs on me, and at first i liked being able to do the same but it became too much . unfollowing him didn’t work as i would still obsessively check his page, so i unfriended him. since we clearly weren’t going to be friends apparently, i didn’t see the point of pretending otherwise. it was also my way of saying “fuck you” i guess, not entirely mature but i was still very angry.
this was a couple months ago it was one of the best decisions i could have made. we have been entirely NC except for a work-related phone call we had to have last month. his tone was unexpectedly kind but i kept it as brief as possible, and hated how much hearing his stupid voice still affected me. i am slowly moving on. i miss him like fucking hell but i have to let him go. i still even love the bastard, if you can believe it. i think i always will, to some extent. he hurt me badly but i really hurt him too, before. it just really sucks…
sorry this is so long, it felt great to finally vent this about my assclown
Guinevere, don’t allow your ex-boss to have you as a side piece. He will attempt to cast you in that role. It will be a subtle “drawing you in”…he’ll be kind, talk about “missing the way things were”..etc.
You are in the early stages of a breakup, and that’s when things hurt so much that you feel like you’ve lost the “one love you found”. Time and continued no contact will lessen the ache. He’s not your “soul mate”. Memories of him will always be bittersweet, that’s life. BR postings and reader comments will show you how your boss ran a program on you, not saying he did not care at all, but he did not care about YOUR WELL-BEING at all, because if he did, he would have nipped romantic feeling in the bud. He was, and is, thinking about his “Johnson” first.
With FaceBook and the whole casual sex thing happening today, most people – men and women – are feeling like they should be able to have their cake and eat it too. So they will have a primary relationship and feel justified in going after a side piece as long as no relationship promises are made to the side piece.
Also, don’t even think your coworkers are unaware of your situation. They eagerly tell you they spoke to the guy because they are fishing – they are watching to see if you are surprised or hurt or already aware of their “news”.
Well thank goodness I stumbled across this – I felt like i was having some mental episode today. ok so it could not be more timely. About 3 weeks I sent an email to the ambiguos male in my life – we have known each other 15 years and always liked each other then i broke up with my ex and he did to and the timing just worked back in june and then things were moving along…. he lives a few hours away so i would go up as it was easier with my weekends off and his work schedule and all was good….fast forward a few months where it seems i am more invested and noticing his pot issues *argh* i see a counsellor and sent an email that was firm but fair – it basically said thanks for your honesty realise you just came out of a big relationship great that you want to work on yourself (but he is all talk no action so mmmmm) he had been saying for a while he had to change his habits and pot and bla bla but not one step in the right direction so i put that all in the email – your words and actions are misalinged and its confusing for me and this is how it looks like for me – expressed i love yous but not dating or girlfriend – ambivalent land is killing me os please leave me alone until around january thats 3 months – if you are serious about this and us great and if not i wont hear from him…
the thing that is driving me crackers is – the pain i am going through is horrendous…i had been 3 weeks no contact and last night i had a migraine and just was in a pity party and called him at 9pm – he didnt answer THANK THE UNIVERSE nor has he returned my call … (sent me into a tail spin of thoughts today – even though id idnt want to hear from him i still did ) maybe he is respecting my wishes, maybe he is smoking up a pot storm – i dont know and i need to refocus on me..its just this is so hard… and i think each day grieving that loss and that hope because he is the only man to date that i have felt like this with and its all wrong.. it just makes me so sad and so disappointed. He said he wanted to stop to be a better person for himself and me…but…lets see i know i cant hold on to hope for january but this is just as hard this place…
not sure if anyone has any coping mechanisms for this – i feel like someones died i mean the grief has been pretty horrific and no one really seems to get it that its a 15 year ending…potentially
im trying ot be kind to myself but have been all over the shop
just needed some support and love this site xxx
Jmoz- It seems you’re confusing quantity with quality. You say you’ve known this guy for 15 years. Yet, only NOW are you aware of his pot addiction? Could it be that you haven’t really known HIM for 15 years, just have been fantasizing of an imaginary him for that long? Perhaps you’re really not grieving for him but for the now lost dream you had built in your head?
due to our distance i only ever saw him on occassions and events throughout the years…not in his own environment nad habits…i only ever thought it was recreational
was onlyt ill we got involved i saw it:(
Jmoz- See? You haven’t known him for 15 years. You’ve only known him for that brief period of time you spent with him in person. You are right–Thank goodness he didn’t respond! His not responding is the reality check you n=d, maybe. You dodged a bullet here. I still suspect you’re grieving the death of a fantasy.
n – should read “need”.
Hello, I found this site through the article am I addicted to my lying, cheating ex Mr Unavailable?
My relationship started 2 years ago. We were going out, flirting etc but after we slept together he suggested we would stay friends. I refused and as I was a foreigner in his country I prepared myself going home. He then started crying that the good people in his life leave him. I felt really sorry for him and decided to accept his friend suggestion only to discover that he would chase me after as a girlfriend. He even once told me that the reason we could not have a proper relationship was because I had many friends and social life and no time for him.
I took the risk to try and stayed in his country on my own means. After 5 months he told a common friend that he wanted to break up with me because we were being emotional attached and I would end up hurt in the end. But he was really not sure and as this friend suggest him think twice cause you will not find someone like her.
What happened after was him proposing me to stay in his house, which I accepted after he insisted and that was the beginning of a wonderful life. We were lovers, best friends, we really connected. When I went home for some days he was crying because he missed me much.
Next year he even visited my country and met all my family, friends…
The problem is that he is a person with low self esteem, although he is handsome he feels ugly because he doesnt have the hair he used to have or a muscled body which he tries to build, and I found out from the beginning of our relationship that he has always women in his life (actually GIRLS) who would show him some interest. For example his married school friend who had a crush on him or a young neighbor… even though in the end they stopped even speaking.
In the beginning of September I found out he went out with some random girl,lying to me. I gathered my things and told him I dont want to see him again in my life, but he came to my work place and was crying, his hands were shaking and told me that to me he would never do a thing like this, that like this girl there are million in the world but like me nobody. I forgave him because really I felt his love for me. But in the beginning of October he went out with a new friend of him where he met his friend s sister and started dating her lying to me that he goes out with male friends. Of course I caught immediately after his first date and he was angry because he thought I had contacted the girl and what she might think of him. I was socked because he didnt even care about how I felt. Then he suggested that we remained friends (at the moment we had passport and visa ready to go on a european trip) and nothing but the sex would change, I d still live in his place, we d still hang out etc etc…I was angry and left but I did it only to try and make him see life without me.
That didnt work cause for a girl he met only 6 days before our break up he immediately moved to relationship with her, he even had his birthday party one week after our break up. It s been 3 weeks and he never contact me to see where I am what I do (I am a foreigner after all) which surprised even his family cause he used to be very very sensitive. By the way his previous girlfriend which he loved deeply CHEATED on him, thats why I didnt expect this kind of lies and cheating from him (he never admitted about the new girl).
It is very difficult since our relationship was without trouble to understand the why and how… We were above all best friends and did almost everything together… He took care of me and I was trying to show him all the love he deserves, I encouraged him to meet new people and do new activities cause he would always say he was always alone with no good friends etc etc (usually he lets himself taking advantaged by ungrateful people).
I lived happy two years and it left me bitter taste not the betrayal but the way he acts like I never happened in his life, moving extremely fast after our break up. And that he didnt keep his promise that if something change in his feelings he would be honest to me and he ll do his best for us to stay always life partners.
Niki,
Are you planning to do NC to him? Staying around him will only confuse you and will emotionally drain you. You will always have questions, that you can’t ask him or even if you ask he will get angry.
I was in similar situation and I am really happy, that I achieved 14 months NC. The decision wasn’t easy, but I had my enough moment more than once, so had to take care about myself. During the NC I was able to really score the entire relationship and how I neglected myself. I found, that the ex gf even didn’t know who I am, she just didn’t invest energy to find out who I am. Of course it wasn’t easy I would say, that I really was able to calm down after the 8th month of NC. I was angry of everybody and especially of the women. I decided to stay out of relationship until I am not emotionally healed.
My advice is: Stay strong and accept the support of the ladies here. I believe, that they will post valuable comments for you.
Yes NC is obligatory…I returned to my country… I feel I went back, I am alone and have to go through this tough time on my own while he has his new friends, new girl, and keeps having all the fun just without me in the picture…not even a loss… I am 36 years old and I should have know better than this…I have spent 4 years on my OWN by CHOICE to heal from previous as…es.. and now this? From the nice guy who was himself hurt? I am stupid and back to basis…
Hey Niki,
Be kind with yourself, I am sure that this time you will get knowledge from the situation, not just an emotional scar. In my case I chose to move to another country and close my small business. My workplace and the workplace of the ex were on 20 meters distance and there was the possibility to see her every day. I chose me and I know that it looks extreme to move to another country, but I made this for me and for my emotional health. I can say, that currently I am in better place with my better self.
You are not stupid! You just allowed yourself to be vulnerable and you trusted somebody, who wasn’t able to get the responsibility to be trusted and respected. But don’t worry, there are many guys out there, that will step in when it’s time fore action, so there are good men out there.
I recommend you to read all the Natalie’s books. For me it wasn’t so easy to read them. For example I read the NC rule for 2 months, because there was too many valuable information, that I really needed time to process and think about.
Take care about yourself. For example go to sauna, massage, dancing classes, meet your friends and etc. It will be normal to have days, that you just will want to stay in the bed and this is normal, but try to be more active and to go out.
With the time you will realize what really happened to you and finally your ex will be indifferent.
It’s good, that you’ve done the first significant step, to go NC.
Niki you’re doing the right thing by cutting this man out of your life. Stay NC and give yourself a few months to recover – you will feel a little better each week, although not every day will be easy. In a few months time you will wonder why you ever thought this miserable lying man was so wonderful.
Please forget about his crying and pleading — they were all lies. Obviously. These assclowns always play on our pity. They pretend to be sad, lonely, afraid, hurt… but only when their lies are discovered. They tell you how ‘hard’ their lives have been, how ‘sad’ their childhoods — hell they even make up fake sick or disabled family members and tell you about them, in order to gain your attention, pity, and to keep you hanging on to try to help them feel better about themselves. Yes, keep you hanging on while they go out picking up other women. I think Niki you’ve discovered all you need to know about that man. Good for you for turning your back on it.
Hi Niki, you weren’t stupid. I know the type you describe. They have low self-esteem (regardless of how attractive, financially successful etc. they really are). They’ve had previous bad experiences which confirmed their low opinion of themselves. So if a loving, caring, supportive person comes along they think (s)he can’t be worth much, otherwise (s)he wouldn’t like/ love such a worthless person. So you get treated with disdain. Morale: it’s normal to feel less confident in some areas of life and cheer your partner, but it’s not our job to fix another person and his/ her lack of self-esteem.
yes you got to the point…although he is quite handsome he has low self esteem because he is not a muscled guy or his hair are not as much as when he was 20.. the problem is he used to be the sensitive guy, for almost one year, the second one of our relationship he was not looking around or on line for a girl who would confirm him, he also supported me financial and gave me the impression I was number 1 priority… but what happened after I do not know…again web site and facebook pages with girls, again trying to impress, even though he did the same with his male friends… I do not know if he fell in love and will become the nice guy that he used to be, but if I knew we would not even say goodbye after those 2 years I do not know if I would have walked out that door…cause I miss my friend, even though he seems to have thrown me out in the garbage of memories… plus restarting again is hard, I am broke, without a job, back to my country which I never wanted to see again in my life…I kind of feel a loser….
Let’s ADD into that too ambiguous to “support” you like any other friend would have – while declaring that you have a friend. And yet your the one they go when when they get cheated on and lied to by everyone else, yet completely dismissed YOU while you were all to ready to be committed.
You know, I thought forever it was my age or weight, but now I see it.. I was too damn “trustworthy”, I did not create a ton of drama with other men or make life hell, or take anyone’s money or any of those things.
Sometimes a guy is NOT into you becasue.. well your just stable and not the supply of a lot of drama and other things to worry about I think anymore.
I see this pattern with my friendships. Why does this happen, people?
We choose what we’re comfortable with?
Until we learn to get ‘uncomfortable’ with it, which I am beginning to think requires certain conditions:
1) No Contact
2) Staying single
3) Facing the internal music for a while.
I know it seems counter-intuitive, because you want to ‘get back on the horse’, but I am starting to think that the only real growth I’ve managed has been because I’ve determined that I’ll be on my own for a good long while.
This has not only forced me to reassess my romantic life, but ALL my relationships with other people, because they are now my support network.
My sister has a friend who recently went on a weekend Buddhist retreat for the first time in her life. It was strict – no phones, no electronic devices, no contact with the outside world, silence, reading, meditation.
The friend spent almost the whole weekend crying, absolutely gut-wrenching crying. It was like years of unexpressed grief, anger and disappointment all started to come out, because she’d truly switched off all the distractions and lies that we normally tell ourselves about our lives.
And yet she said afterwards – although it was a deeply personal experience and she didn’t really want to talk about it – that it was really good, and she wants to go back and do it again.
Me too – I’ve had non-romantic totally platonic, same-sex interests get all @ssclowny on me too! It seems to come out of nowhere – what makes them do that?
Right now there is a female coworker who I thought I had a nice work relationship with. I can think of NO areas of conflict with her. Yet she twice went out of her way to tell me information that was unflattering or insulting toward me.
I was blindsided the first time she did this. I’d known and worked with her for 8 years and one day she calls me up and speaks to me in a conspiratorial whisper on the phone – she’d never done that before – “oooh…some good work gossip coming”, I thought. Then she tells me something insulting to ME that was said by some 3rd party I did not know. She could’ve kept that useless info to herself, but she was determined to share it. She did it a second time, maybe several months later, acted all “girlfriend – wait til you hear this” and again, it was negative toward me. It’s been a while since speaking with her, she left me a work v-mail last week and yesterday when I returned her call to ask “what’s up?”, she said “girl…I’m have to tell you from home, call me after 6PM” and she gave me her home number – totally new behavior for us. Stupid me – never thought about her past behavior, really thought she wanted to discuss something “woman-to-woman” so I made a note to call her. But I forgot about calling her last night ‘til around 9:30PM , when out of nowhere my spidey senses hit me in the head with “She wants to tell you something unkind!”
I have not called her. Don’t think I will. She did not call me at my desk today. I think I will leave that land mine alone.
Brenda – its sad to think someone wouldn’t be into us because we are stable and not a supply of drama, but I think that is one reason why my ex wasn’t into me the way he felt he should be. Someone that knew my ex since he was young and actually set us up (she was hopeful that we would work out) finally said to me, ‘you aren’t the type of girl he wants, he wants the slutty drama types’ or something to that effect. And I didn’t believe it for a long time. But I look at the girl he wanted before me and the girl he’s with now and well, the girl before me, I know she was ALL drama and the current gf, well from what little I do know, its been all drama. I think he thrives on it and in someway the drama helps him come to the rescue in some sense….I don’t know.
I know a guy like that – a work buddy – he definitely craves drama from his relationships with women. I think he’d be bored with a dependable, stable girlfriend. He’d find some way to create drama – maybe he’d resume gambling or drinking too much.
Here at BR we talk of seeking stable, loving relationships, but we are in a world filled with men and women who are NOT seeking that. So I guess the best we can do for ourselves is to FLUSH early and often! And learn to be happy without being part of a “couple”.
Elgie – I just chucked to myself reading ‘we are in a world filled with men and women who are NOT seeking that.’ One of the things he told me when we broke up was that something was missing and maybe that’s it. I just don’t provide enough drama, which then effects his attraction for me. He also would say that he felt that every time he looked me he should want to kiss me (I interpreted it as kiss=bang but whatever haha) and he didn’t so that signaled to him that something was missing. I was like this isn’t the notebook, this is REAL LIFE. I don’t want to kiss you every time I look at you. Anyway – he will truly never be happy and will never find what he thinks he wants because he is very messed up.
I’ve been reading BR for years… And has helped me get through some really difficult times.
I can fully admit, that I’m a EUW. I’ve posted on here quite a few times about my on/off again long term relationship with a EUM. As years have past, it’s been ambiguous to say the least. It’s a situation where we both care about one another, very attracted to eachother, and sex is the ‘hook’.
Earlier this year, and after years of this… And feeling like nothing I ever did was good enough for this man to make efforts to share a life with me, I started dating someone else. And as things progressed, he was consistently showing me with his actions how much he cared for me and wanted to be with me. Nothing like I ever experienced before. I don’t question how he feels. He shows me how much he appreciates me, and wants to be a part of my life. The physical aspect isnt as great as what I was used to. But I always say, its something to work on.
I am coming to grips with the reality that I have become the person with no integrity. I havent stopped seeing the ex EUM. Not nearly as often as I used to, but I havent been able to completely get away from him, And close that door for good. I told Ex I was dating someone, and new guy wants to be exclusive. He actually freaked out, stalked me a few times, and told me that I must be intentionally hurting him because all of the past hurts he’s caused me. And that even though “he hasnt made efforts in awhile, and not interested in getting married, but wants to just be happy with me, and spend time with me, and think about me moving in in the future, he says I need to either end it with the guy I’m dating (call him on phone in front of him), be his ‘F’ buddy, or end it.”
I am the wrong one here. And I’m completely disgusted with myself. This should be a no brainer, and I’m indecisive, and struggling with what to do. I don’t want to let the new guy go, or hurt him, he deserves better. And the thought of letting go of the long term ambiguous… Whatever it’s called, is painful. I’ve known him for almost 11 years. I believe I started dating to get away from the ambiguous, I want a partner, and to share my life with someone. I felt I was finally sick of the other relationship exhausting me. The new guy asks me, “what can I do to make your life easier.” And I can’t figure out for the life of me… Why on earth would I jeopardize what I’ve always wanted/needed… By hanging on to the past? What is wrong with me.
Not to mention, it’s been taking a toll… I feel like I have to please both of them, while raising a family on my own. The guy I’m dating is older, and like the husband I never had, wants to give me a good life, take me away next month to Caribbean. 11 year guy tells me if I choose him, I have to work for it. When I thought I had ‘enough’ months ago of feeling nothing I ever did was good enough.
I am what I never thought I’d become… A real ahole. We read about how all of these men are EU, playing games… And here I am, doing what I’ve been trying to get away from.
Part of me wants to just let both go, so I can focus on my kids and career, cause I’ve put myself out and worried about men for longer than I care to admit. And it needs to stop. I’m losing myself, don’t know who I am anymore, and I’m just lacking integrity big time.
Sorry it was so long.. I really needed to get all of that out. If anyone read that… Thanks for reading.
Demke,
Your honesty with yourself is heart touching. It is like confession here in front of all of us. We all need to be honest like this with ourselves.
I think you need to first of all let the 11-year old relationship go. I know it’s easier said than done. Sex is the hook. It’s an addiction not love. I had been there myself. I understand. He is not letting you move on either independently of a man or with another man.
The new guy: although you speak warmly of him and say he is like a husband to you, do you think your heart is just not with him? Because the person is good for you and to you doesn’t mean he is the person for you.
Being alone for a while and healing is the best solution now. Losing the EU one is not a concern. He is not worth your time. He has already wasted your time. I don’t like him at all from what you are describing.
The other guy: if you are not into building a relationship with him, let him go. Ask yourself honestly, just like the way you are opening your heart here, do you see yourself as a wife of this person? As a life-time partner? If you are not, let him go. He does deserve better. You are right. Not meaning better than you, but a relationship that is mutually wanted. You are already hurting him by staying even though you don’t see your life with him. Even though you like the idea of a committed relationship, you might not like this particular man. It is better to let him go, I think. You are saying, “I started dating to get away from the ambiguous, I want a partner . . .” See? You are not dating this guy because you are ready and wholesome. You are dating to run away from the ambiguous situation and wanting a real thing. But the guy is not right for you and you are not ready. You need to heal and reconstruct new You. It will take time and you have to be single for that and focus on You.
I have a feeling you need to spend at least a year alone. Concentrate on your kids and you. It seems the EU has clouded your life. Your life lost focus. You are like in the fog pulled in different direction and having no definite path in front of you. Let them both go.
This EUM in completely abusive and on a M*ther F*cking POWER TRIP sadistic he thinks his d*cik is that great and want’s you to proove it, I bet your just ONE in a long string of females he does that to, He hasn;t got the BALLS to BE a real man and settle down and knows it and hates the man that CAN do that.
The other guy? you NEED to let go of at least until your 100% done with the other one, it can only be BAD for him in the end,and if you CARE at all about him in reality will see what could happen.
Maybe he is nice but not really for you in some way or another I do not know, But yes DO let him lead an honest life if your NOT willing to give that to him yet.
Maybe you will loose him, But then again maybe you will finally rid of the other @sshole and finally be free in your mind.
But for now in all honesty? your using the other one as a “security blanket” and your NOT 100% into being devoted to him.
He will figure it out and sense it and feel it in some way, I only see a bad ending if you do NOT own up to it.
Brenda and Elgie, to sum up, I agree with you both. Demke needs not to choose either. She needs to choose to be single for a while and figure out herself and her life. That’s the healthiest choice she can do right now. Let the good guy go before he gets hurt (he will be already but more engagement and time will make it worse). She is not losing him by letting him go. She is just not ready for him. This is not the right time. So it’s not a loss. Kick the EU out of her life. Concentrate on her. She is already honest with herself and looking for a change. That’s a great first step. Recognition and acceptance.
That was exactly MY point, I know what it’s like to be the one strung along becasue someone did NOT want to loose me and the safety of me – and yet had NO issue keeping my emotions hostage to literally torture me emotionally.
I was speaking on the mans behalf who wants more.
Just let him go faster than suffer something if you care at all for him was my point.
Maybe I should add in that person who did it to ME has no idea what kind of number I am in the bed either since it was never able to get to that point.
But the fact is? Even if he did grow up after so much crap seeing him DO? I could never trust him, my point was also if you leave to recover NOW there may be hope again later, BUT if you hurt this other person enough?
Even of you did 100% recover he won’t be able to trust you, there is a breaking point where it get’s to be “too late” once a person get’s shaken up so much, there is NO other option but to look elsewhere.
And it can happen to someone that never meant to ever leave you, even the most devoted person has a point where they cannot return again.
Yeah, Demke. What Sofia said. You know you don’t have to choose either path, right? There is that third choice of being on your own, which frightens you, I think.
You are just not into the “available guy” – he does not turn you on in that “special” way. Right now you aren’t computing that what you think of as a “strong connection” is an existence filled with angst and uncertainty and emotional drama. And I am willing to bet that you find EUM very physically attractive, that is why “available guy” does not have a hope of winning real interest from you.
You told EUM about “available guy” to up the drama…..
Just accept that someone is going to be hurt in this thing, and the person who will experience the LEAST amount of pain is the EUM. He doesn’t really want you, but he does not want anyone else to have his FBG. And should you find a strong attraction to another man, and marry that man (if that’s your goal), I guarantee the EUM will still want you to be his FBG. He has his own best interests at heart, not yours.
And maybe you need to admit to yourself that you love the drama too.
Me? I don’t like drama as much as ACMM does. Early on in my go round with him the FIRST time, I noted how he seemed to like the push-pull thing….I was not accustomed to that. It was high-school in my view, but he seemed to like it and I found I was good at reading him….I played him like a piano. But it was emotionally tiring and eventually hurtful to me. And I was surprised to find that 13 years later, he has not changed…he does not want a 100% adult relationship…..he’s stuck in highschool hijinks. I tired of it.
You have not tired of it, and maybe you never will. Be true to yourself and what YOU want. If you want drama, so be it.
Demke
For starters your NOT an ahole, you’re just confused. You’ve got into a rut and a habit with the 11yr AC. He’s been part of your life for so long that it’s hard to imagine life without this go nowhere asshat who wants to have his cake and eat it too.
You have a clear choice here between these two guys, one wants to be with you, build a future with you, likes you and take you on a nice holiday.
The other one doesn’t want to do any of this and wants to keep the status quo ie, you dangling on a string and hooking up for sex. He doesn’t want to lose all his side benefits, sex, no commitment and whatever other benefits he gets from you. So what benefits are you getting from this guy, none that I can see. Sex isn’t a commodity that is in short supply out there in the real world.
It’s a no brainer Demke, you’ve got a golden opportunity to get rid of the 11 year millstone hanging around your neck, that go nowhere guy and step into a new relationship with a guy who actually LIKES you and wants to be GOOD to you. Give him a go, no one says you have to fall in love but you can certainly take a chance with a decent guy.
Take a leap of faith and ditch the 11year asshat, go no contact, block him and call the police if he won’t leave you alone. Too bad so sad if he doesn’t like it, he’s had a long time to step up to the plate and he hasn’t done so. End of!
Your choice: 11 year guy wants a sex relationship. New guy wants a love relationship. Sounds like you are more inclined toward 11 year guy. But at age 70 who do you want to spend an evening with? Your decision.
Magnolia, it sucks that he turned out to be unreliable, but you called him on it so quickly ~ you should be proud. His actions are a reflection on him and not on you. And yes, you have a right to be irritated that someone talked about his interest when he couldn’t be bothered to make an effort ~ it’s lacking in integrity on his part.
Demke,
The available guy deserves at least exclusivity, so he will have good start. If you keep in touch with the AC, then you can’t move on and the next available person will not have a good chance, because emotionally you still will be with the AC.
I think, that in my last relationship I was the available one in a love triangle. I actually haven’t suspected, that I am in a triangle. The woman that I was with didn’t know what is respect, honesty and commitment. I had the feeling that when I was doing something nice for her, that her alarm bells were ringing ( she got really scared, she didn’t expect this kind treatment ). She was constantly challenging me and provoking drama, trying to make me jealous, but pretending that she hates jealous people and etc.
She broke with me in tears, declaring that she is doing this, because she doesn’t want to be attached to somebody again. For me this wasn’t enough, I wanted a closure, but she wanted to keep her reputation and played like there was nothing between us. On the third week after the breakup I asked if there is another person and she said “yes”, something that she declined when she broke up with me. This opened more doubts in me, who is this person, why she chose this person … obviously this was somebody from her past, somebody that she knew before me. I felt so low! I felt, that while I was with her I was living in the shadow of somebody else. I had the feeling, that she constantly was checking / provoking, if I don’t behave like somebody from her past. Probably this person was seeing us when we go on dates, who knows may be she even was setting the dates in places, where he can bump on us, to make some drama, to show him how she moves on or to make him jealous. This is still a mystery and honestly I am indifferent, but I don’t want to be in situation like this again.
What I can say is that: “Every person, that cares about you deserves exclusivity, this should be the minimum respect, that you can show to the person … otherwise this person, just becomes a buffer.”
Demke, ( don’t get this offensive, but I talk from experience and I will be a bit harsh ) I wish all the best and I hope, that you will resolve this situation, but for sure the AC is not worthy. He is loosing control and he will try everything right now. I can tell you something else. If I was the available guy in the story I will feel used and disrespected. The fact that the AC already knows about the available guy means, that the situation already went too far. This is some kind of boundaries crossing ( you crossed the boundaries of the available man, but he still doesn’t know, what if the AC popup on some of your dates and make some drama for example? ) and the available man needs respect and honesty.
I hope, that you count, that there is a third person in the picture and this person respects you. Please count him. No matter if you really like the available man, he needs at lest exclusivity, so he can show who he is, other wise you will be blinded from the AC. No matter if the things will workout with the available man, he needs exclusivity.
Good luck.
Demke,
Mr U makes some good points about respecting the new guy. As per my comment below please endeavour to treat him with respect and honesty which IMO would mean ending it with him respectfully and honestly because you are in no state emotionally to reciprocate his emotional availability. Know what is and act with integrity.
Demke, I personally disagree with others above. I think you should dump the available guy. He deserves somebody who’s not lying and cheating on him and doesn’t feel that having a sex with him is some kind of a chore which needs to be improved. Then decide what you want. Do you want to remain single until you figure out whether you really want to be in a committed, loving relationship, or you want even more EUM drama? But leave the nice guy alone for somebody who can really appreciate him, they’re not that easy to find.
Mephista,
Well, I expected to get some negative feedback from someone, mostly everyone’s been supportive though. If I didn’t appreciate the decent guy and really care about him, I wouldn’t have posted on here, telling my story, admitting that I am definitely in the wrong here, desperately needing feedback on what I’ve been going through, to make a decision mostly in his best interest. And I definitely don’t want drama in my life anymore…
I don’t know where you got the assumption that having sex with new guy is a “chore”, it’s just different. No, not as exciting as my 11 year past relationship, it even took awhile for that in the beginning to feel comfortable with him. And because that crazy relationship has taken such a toll on me, it’s been hard for me to really open my heart to anyone, and fully enjoy that physical aspect of a relationship with someone else… like I thought I could. And I was starting to do that until AC/EUM knew I was dating someone new… and holy crap. It’s been crazy ever since.
So, thanks to the supportive, encouraging comments from posters on here, all confirming that my ex is an arrogant, abusive person… I haven’t entertained him since, whatsoever. I made the decision to be done, completely. I wasn’t telling anyone about what was going one… I’m glad that I finally did.
Demke,
That’s good news you made the decision to cut all contact with the ex. Please recognise that unless you are a robot there is going to be a period of time now where you will be healing. This is a prime opportunity to rest after the drama and look inwards at your own issues. Only you know if you can make a commitment to and actually actively be EA in an intimate relationship at this time
Thank you so much for your personal story and views, and for me personally I cannot GET sexually as open or adventurous when there is lingering doubts and questions and feelings that something is being hidden.
Sometimes maybe the most decent are NO less exciting in bed than someone with NO consideration, But they DO require TRUST in a relationship before cutting 100% loose, it’s a myth that a decent devoted person is LESS sexual, Most times it is more so they sense things and need things not getting met, I tend to be sometimes an empath or a sensitive and even had dreams telling me what someone was REALLY doing even when I did NOT want to see it, And it wrecked havoc on my life trying to deny the truth and yet knowing the truth anyhow.
In fact I can say I never can get in the friend zone again and know this, it an absolute toxic thing for my very soul and my soul cannot accept it just to NOT be alone. Lesson learned – I cannot betray my own needs or my thoughts or my conscience, it is just NOT that lonely anymore to let that dark toxic slime enter into my life.
Thanks Sofia, I appreciate your response. I truly believe we all know the answers to whatever questions we have. It’s going to be hard to let #1 EU go. It’s been hard. And I know he feels the same. There has just been so much past dysfuntion, that it’s always in the background, no matter how much we both have personally grown throughout the years. He wants me to “fight” for him. Yet, doesnt care to really get married, “wants consistency and happiness first”. And whenever I consistently gave it, he would sabotage it. So, me admitting to him that I was dating someone else, was a way to end it. Thinking he would walk away, so I could find out if my heart will give the new guy a chance. Because I believe I can picture us having a life together. But With #1 stalking me… And still calling/txting… It’s making it harder. Especially because I always had feelings for him for so long. You’re right. It is like an addiction. Strange, sad, yet true. He’s like crack. Lol. And it’s hard when crack shows up on your doorstep.
I plan on giving myself the weekend… No men. And making a decision. Yes. #1 has clouded my life, and my focus. For 11 years. All of my relationships, and even my last two jobs suffered as a result. And only myself to blame.
When the ex told me he would be my F buddy until I made my mind up, it felt like I got suckerpunched. And that I’d need to do a) b) c) in order to win back his trust, etc. I know, I’d be exhausted trying to give for another 11 years… Like I have been. Here I am, telling him that this may be it w new guy, cause things can’t continue ‘status quo’, he stalks, gives me ultimatums, wants to have sex while I’m deciding, and have to keep proving to him…?
I may have lost my integrity, temporarily, and behaved in an immature, way… But I can’t continue being treated the way he’s been tearing me, crack or not. I just need it to end,
Thanks again Sofia… Your comment was very helpful. 🙂
Demke, he is not only EU. He is an AC as well. Just saying alone about F Buddy while “you are making up your mind,” (after knowing you for 11 years!!!!) tells me all about him. There is nothing more to know. He has no decency, no integrity, no values. He is a messed up individual. Doesn’t mean he doesn’t love you in his own EU/AC way, but it’s not something you want. Not the love that will lead you to a family and stable life. No. He is not the one. Enough of waiting.
Interesting you are not mentioning or barely the other guy at all. Shows too that he is not the one. You are the One for yourself. Choose yourself not just this weekend but moving forward. It sounds like you are still waiting for the ex to change his mind and pick you. He won’t. I mean in a way he has chosen you, but I see he is the type who just won’t commit. This kind of “love” is good for movies and books. Not for real stable life. I am afraid we, women, brought up on too many romantic nonsense materials to believe that he will finally settle. No. Usually about a year at most is pretty much enough time for a man to know whether he is in or out. 11 years is surreal.
You have not lost your integrity. You are fine. You recognize all the issues clearly. Just tired and exhausted from EU.
Believe me I know it’s very hard to let go of him. The sex, the connection, all the spice that the “relationship” brings to otherwise mundane and robotic life. It’s an addiction. Right. Like crack or alcohol or cigarettes.
Love is when the union brings the best out of each other. Do you both? I doubt it.
Perhaps you should have a talk with him. 11 years is a long time to go NC with no warning, and though his actions show he doesn’t deserve your respect, I would sit down and tell him that you are done and need NC for an indefinite period of time. Later on: after the feelings and emotions subside, whether a 1+2 years, you will see if you can be friends or try again (the latter I doubt unless he has an epiphany during NC).
Don’t blame yourself. You have loved and trusted. You can be vulnerable and that’s good. I think you are heading in the right direction. Exactly. You don’t want to waste another 11 or 33 years life on him. Time to make a change.
It’s hard. I know. Hugs and support.
Thanks ladies! @Brenda…. Your comments made me laugh. Too funny. He is sadistic and on PP (pen!s power trip). But my actions and giving in to him for so long, is why he’s on such a power trip. And he’s not even that attractive. He just has that cocky/confident, struggling musician vibe about him. The other guy is just as attractive, but not a jerk. Which Im guessing is why I’m prob not as attracted to him.
@Pauline. No. It’s not the drama for me. I told ex EU the truth because I couldn’t handle the stress from not being honest anymore. And I actually wanted it to end and try giving an honest try with the good guy. To see how I really felt, minus the distraction from the ex asshat. ex EU was pissed when I told him… Been calling me every name in the book. Stalking a few times. Thats not what I expected, or hoped for. I was hoping he would let it be, and just say ‘ok, if thats what you want’, and let me heal… And keep moving forward. Past few weeks of him getting mad, disappearing, reappearing, calling me names, then telling me he loves me, and that I should be fighting for him, has been stressful. And new guy is starting to get a funny vibe. So. I have completely backed away from ex EU (of course he’s reaching out cause he wants sex).
Thank you ladies… Your responses are just what I needed to hear. You’re all spot-on. xo
Demke, the arrogance of this guy is unbelievable. He’s been stringing you along for ages, talking about FWB all while telling you that YOU need to fight for HIM? Give me a f*cking break. You see this situation for what it is ~ he’s angry that you dare move on from his BS and not be a source of easy sex and an ego boost for him anymore. Can you block this guy completely? I.e. block his calls and emails altogether? It’s incredibly disrespectful for this ass to keep on harassing you in this way. He’s wasted far too much of your time already. please don’t feel obligated to answer his calls or emails or explain to him what you’re doing or thinking, he doesn’t deserve it. It’s not like he’s shown you any honesty or respect, right? The new guy sounds like a good person ~ maybe he is or maybe he isn’t the right one for you, but you deserve the chance to get to know him further and figure that out. Don’t let this user ruin that opportunity for you.
Exactly A.
Demke, I went through the same thing with the assclown when I finally dumped him, he got very nasty and abusive and it made my blood run cold when I saw him for who he really was. All that filth spewing out of him, WTF, who was this person I had fancied I was in love with? It was all a fantasy in my own mind. Once the rose coloured glasses were off I could see that he had always been like that and I had ignored all the red flags that were there from the beginning.
He used and abused me and it got worse because I didn’t kick his ass to the curb, he had no respect for me and he certainly didn’t love or care for me. He wiped his feet on me as the 11 year EU assclown is doing to you right now.
His actions are showing you who he really is and there is no respect or care for you or for your well being.
This is all about him and now he is losing control of you he’s trying to get you back using the abuse that has worked so well in the past. Normal guys don’t do this, once you say you want out of the relationship they usually take a large step back and comply with your wishes. Mostly they have a new girlfriend 5 minutes later, something I don’t understand but there you go.
Once the ass got very abusive that’s when I went NC, blocked his calls, sent his emails to the spam folder and deleted any texts that came in without reading them.
He had lost any right to expect any sort of answer or any attention from me and he only had himself to blame.
That’s the answer to these assclowns – silence – all they hear is crickets!
Demke
Your experience above really speaks to me. I have also been reading BR for many years and your comments have always stood out to me. You remind me of my self.
I know how it feels to suddenly be faced with a decision that actually if you think about it is really illuminating your own fears. You’ve invested 11 years into this EUM and you are wondering if really truly leaving him behind is going to feel as though you wasted all that time. The thing is, if you can walk away from this you will see that those 11 years were not a waste. They have taught you exactly what you need to know (if you heed it) to proceed onto the next decade with clarity and peace. The new guy is in your life for a reason, maybe he is not right for you but he is showing you a different and a new way.
My advice would be to take some real time to yourself. Not just a weekend. I am thinking of a few months. If this new guy is as lovely as you think, you could perhaps honestly explain that you have been going through some stuff and need to ease things off for a few months to get your head sorted. It is then his decision. What is crucial though is that you really spend those few months working things out for YOU. Leave the EUM in the past? It will be hard. I know how hard as I am currently in the process of doing the same with 2 men I have known for similar lengths of times.
Those that have been following my comments over the last few months will know that I had a similar decision to make over a “nice guy” versus a close to my heart EUM. I met up with EUM to forgive him and move forward. Guess what? it actually worked! I met up with him and it was solid confirmation that EUMs are just not working for me anymore 🙂
To further complicate matters I have another EUM/AC in my life that just a few days ago I learnt how to deal with. I simply told him exactly what I am wanting in life right now and that he cannot offer it. Sounds simple right? except there was a fundamental shift in my thinking. I knew what I wanted.
I actually KNOW what I want now.
That took :
2 years after breaking up with the abusive ex that brought me here. One short relationship with a guy who loves me but who is EUM and one short relationship with someone who showed me a new way but who cannot commit.
What these all had in common is that I tried hard to make these men be what I wanted. AS soon as I started to think about what I wanted and finding a man that was ALREADY this my whole outlook changed.
Still single and super happy 🙂 moved to a new city and can feel everyday that I am making the right decisions in the moment. That kind of trust in yourself is invaluable.
Take the time to find out what you want.
Love this response, Boo.
To those of us who feel we are doing the correct BR things, and yet love STILL hasn’t come a knockin’, this post is talkin to us. We aren’t OWED anything. We have to design our lives to be what works best for ourselves. And look over the life choices VERY carefully – make sure it fits with what YOU want. Leave all the “hoping” and “wishing” behind and only make a move out of certainty that it is the right move for you.
Wonderful Boo and Elgie! I hope Demke gets a chance to read this. You’ve both said it so well.
Demke,
The decent guy has been OK with all of this?
It sounds like 11 years have been completely lost.
I agree with letting both of these guys go, so you can focus on you. I am thinking some counseling may be good to understand why you have stayed, and created this scenario.
Please let new guy go. This is a hurtful situation. If we were reading that you were in #2’s place, posters would be ripping him up.
Time to block #1. You’ve let this go on way too long.
Lastly, your honestly is refreshing, but it means nothing if you continue to string that guy along.
Spot on Allison. Honesty and awareness are refreshing and it is admirable to find the integrity to have an honest conversation with ourselves, *but*(and it’s a big BUT)in a circumstance where you are deceiving/hurting someone else (and yourself), this honest conversation sans action is the equivalent of hot air ‘good intentions’. Actions speak louder than words, actions are where integrity manifests.
Demke, I am assuming that 1.new guy, though now catching on to a ‘weird vibe’ is unaware of your continuing, albeit infrequent, sexual encounters with Mr DoesNotDeserveTheTimeOfDayFromABottomOfThePondDwellingParasite; 2. You began dating new guy in order to give yourself a buffer from the pain caused by the thought of taking care of yourself by really and truly committing to leaving MrDoesNotGiveAS**tAboutMeAFTER11YEARS and choosing yourself instead;3. and following from that, relations with new guy began as a way to make your imagined (but never real)leaving of MrEffFaceEtcEtc more plausible to yourself; 4. As far as starting as you wish to go on, new guy does not have a chance, despite how much you desire that particular fantasy to materialise.
Your honesty shows you have integrity and it is a starting point but if you wish to continue being honest you might want to be honest in realising that whilst so entangled in your habitual reactions and thought patterns concerning these two men no real decision (vis a vis which ‘one’) that *honours* your integrity csn be made by you. It is honest to realise that you *cannot* know or make a choice because you do not yourself know you or indeed even like or respect yourself that much.
You have written that you believe we do know the answers we seek, and I agree. To continue honest conversation with yourself IMO you need to act on this belief with a leap of faith that defies your version of normal. If you keep stringing along new guy, now you realise why you are even with him then in my view that is the point at which you might honestly call yourself an ahole and believe it. Then you become like that ACEUM/EUW who blabs ad nauseum, “yeah I’m an ahole, a rat blah,bah…she/he deserves better”. It doesn’t sound like you are that person, but maybe you will be if you do not act because there is no integrity without action.
Finish with both of them,go NC and begin looking at yourself. Take a leap of faith that you are a worth something, any thing more than a lifetime of pain pandering to Mr EffFace’s and your version of ‘normal’ love. Give some real substance to that leap by respectfully breaking up with new guy knowing in yourself that you ‘buffered’ him (so to speak) and knowing that you cannot either accept or reciprocate his more consistent and by your account caring and respectful version of love at this time(this is the explanation for yourself not him).None of that means you’re a bad person. But they might be the facts ATM. Know what is. What is can change with work but know what is.
Isn’t the ‘answer’ here something like – *I need to get serious about myself? To seek to know my own lovableness and lovingness. To find that I am and always was good enough? That it’s actually ok to take care of myself?
Demke,
This guy sounds like he treats you like chattel.
Hey y’all. I’ve been enjoying BR for the past couple of years and got great support during my breakup in winter of 2013 (gentleman X left in the dead of night and called from a country away to inform me our three years together were over). After some painful re-assessment, No Contact of 9 months, interrupted, renewed (at six months on round two now), I’ve clawed my way back to a personal place where I know myself better, am more imbued with Natalie’s amazing principles. I’ve worked/created/collaborated more this past year than in the four years combined. I’ve found that new energy has been attracting the right kinds of people, people I find passionate and on the same creative wavelength, who also want to work with me. And I am more confident.
However: since that winter, I hadn’t dated anyone, and we’re pushing on two years. There were some men of interest, but the minute they signaled their unavailability/distance, I was out. I learned that from BR and saved myself pain. This past August, I met, through mutual friends, a man, online – who was overwhelming in our conversational chemistry … deep interests in the same music, thinkers and ideas made for six to seven hours of conversation, combined, each day, for a month. This felt like something amazing and new and potentially true. We began talking on the phone, keeping in touch an insane amount for not having met. He told his friends about me and how he’d met someone amazing; he even told me he’d told his mother about me and how “she finally approves of someone I want to date”. Sensual but classy text exchanges – pictures of ourselves before sleep, some lingerie and boxer photos, you know. But we talked about there being no pressure, and there was no pressure, more of an understanding that it could happen or it could not happen.
He lives a few hours away and asked me to come to see a show with him, and I had been planning to go to that show anyhow, and I went down a few weeks ago. The in-person meeting was fantastic. We both kept talking about how this exceeded all our expectations. Had wine on the roof, talked for hours, were lightly intimate (no sex of course), slept very little with all the talking. The things he was saying to me: how amazing he thought I was, beautiful, how much he respected me…music to my ears, really.
I left to my host’s, return for the show/date, which unravels into a long night out of meeting mutual friends, dancing. Here’s where things start mixing up. We get back to his place at six, at which point we are exhausted and feeling worn to pieces. I’m not even sure how the conversation came about, but he suddenly springs how he is not ready for anything like a relationship, as he has major family issues going on right now, and is ‘dead’, as he put it, after five years of destructive relationships that ended in the spring of this year. I’d heard all about these relationships but before I’d visited, we’d discussed multiple times how we were both over our past people. The mixture of it being after a long night and my feeling foolish over my expectations meant I got a bit teary. I said I felt hurt, after how we’d been talking, to hear he wants to date but has no space for a relationship. And this is where I was further shocked: he said: “I have no idea why this is hurtful. I never said anything about a relationship.” True. He didn’t. But he’d rhapsodized for a near month and a half about how I’m a phenomenal woman he’d be excited to be with … well into the night before. I wasn’t about to start arguing with him about what he HAD said versus what he was saying right then. I was too embarrassed.
We go to sleep, and I can’t sleep. Wake after three hours and we head out to an outdoor gathering. I feel very calm, seeing him in a new light. Spend the evening fooling around but I feel quite depressed at this point. He tells me he doesn’t have time to see other people and will ‘just be talking to me’ but if I find someone else, I should date them. This Jekyll and Hyde stuff was starting to gut me. I ask him what he’ll do and he says the same, ‘technically yes,’ if he meets others he will see them.
Head back to my city, where upon coming back he has left a voicemail saying, ‘About that seeing other people thing, just want you to know I’m not seeing other people in all the other time I’m not talking to you. But that was an amazing weekend and I can’t wait to see you again.’ I don’t know what to do with that double bind or that “can’t wait to see you again”. We talk the same as before online, but I’m getting more uncomfortable with what transpired over the weekend as the week passes. I stop going online, wait for a phone call. One week passes, nothing. We have a tense conversation online in which I ask if he’s alright, and he tells me he “told me he is busy,” and can’t update me every day. Another week passes, no calls, nothing. He is ALWAYS online, but the intensity of texts and calls has disappeared. This obviously makes me feel like utter shit. I’ve learned from BR that I’m not going to approach him and confront him about this without losing face and immense disrespect.
Final contact: a few days ago he tells me he has been really, really down these last three weeks and very sad about what an exhausting year it has been. I sympathize, but I don’t mention his not calling for what it is, unacceptable. I’m just struggling here between wanting to tell him off and going completely silent. This is incredibly painful, for someone to tell you how much they want you and like you and respect you, then to basically do a complete 180. If he doesn’t like me anymore, that is fine. But I will be respected. After two years of not dating, I did not want this to be how I re-entered the pool. But I do know he is not showing me any effort, attempts at maintaining the intimacy he’d been so on board with to begin with, and is way way too smart to not know what he is doing. Thoughts?
Hi KangarooSong,
“I’m just struggling here between wanting to tell him off and going completely silent.”
Try doing one or the other, and see what comes out of it. Incidentally, it was a bit mean of him to say ‘i never said anything about a relationship’ – why did he act so joyful then and made such a big deal about ‘knowing’ you, at the point of “telling his mother”(bleah, btw.)?
Best wishes, V.
Hi V.: I’m more of the silent disappear style of things, and I don’t think telling him off will accomplish anything. I agree that it was mean, and the switch from joyful to cold and empty is quite unbearable. I’m trying my best to focus on work and stay healthy and reconnect with friends and the people who support me locally. Thank you so much, K.S.
KangarooSong
Walk away and don’t look back, there is nothing there for you with this man.
Thank You Pauline. This is what I’m seeing that I have to do.
KangarooSong, I think you have behaved with style and class. Sure, we all put ourselves out there but you did so well in not contacting him. Are you in Oz? (Hugs from Melb)
Thank you, NicW! I want to continue being somewhat stylish – shedding a few tears while tipsy was enough for me to pull it together. I have a huge amount of family in Oz but am no longer there 🙂
“Thoughts?”
I will not analyze deeply, but I see red flags everywhere. Abort mission! 🙂
I have not been on a date since last 20 months. I asked some a girl out before 7 months, but she had bf, so abort mission. I asked another girl before 3 weeks and she accepted, well there is something suspicious, because she shifted our date with one month, looks like a red flag, but I actually don’t know her. Even if we go out I will stick to the discovery phase. If the things don’t work out I will be fine.
Let’s be realistic, for our epiphany we learn whats not accepted and thanks to BR we learned about the boundaries and the red flags. This is in favor to tell us when we have to opt out.
Having better self esteem and having these new skills doesn’t mean that we will find our soul mate from the first attempt after the epiphany.
You know I think the red flags and self esteem go hand in hand with me, I don’t think I am at all blinded to the red flags at all, I think it is “directly” linked to my self esteem if that makes sense?
How it seems to be working for me anyhow, I know that I already knew and do know the red flags.
Hello Brenda,
I don’t know what exactly is the key. May be is a combination from experience, self respect, self esteem, values and etc.
Of course the predators smell our weaknesses and you know the EU people attract EU people. I also think, that the Fallback Girls, also can keep EU men on the hook, if the situation goes so far.
What I learned last year is that at least we must build standards and boundaries, so even if we overestimate our availability or miss the red flags, then we at least should have the self esteem and self respect to walk away when the other person unfold and we are not happy with their real true.
The experience learned me to accept the rejection for example and to walk away. If somebody doesn’t respect me in a relationship I am ready to walk away as well. I set standards. This is possible, because I got rest from the dating pool, took care about myself, surrounded me with nice people and of course read RR.
Well one thing is for sure your highly intelligent, 100% spot on lack of experience, LOL! sure since we sometimes just stayed and stayed and stayed around or waited around for years at a time – there wasn’t as much experience to have gotten.
Well, I think I have been too emotionally available sometimes rather than not enough though.. and that is probably what brought me here, oddly enough.
Thank you Still Mr. U., I hear you, and those are points I didn’t even think about before. I appreciate hearing about your experience and it really helps tamp down my disappointment. Good for you for aborting mission with the boyfriend-having girl. And for reminding me that this is a discovery phase and my level of investment was way way too high for this point in the discovering.
You’re absolutely right: understanding that we have boundaries and don’t accept certain behavior doesn’t mean bad behavior won’t come our way again. This is a powerful realization to come too. I thank you 🙂
Kanga, my sympathy. You know the answer, he souns like a complete EUM. Lazy online communications, intense chase, feelings, mental connections etc., premature over-committment (telling his mother), then hot and cold treatment, lowering your expectations further and not taking responsibility for leading you on. Typical, typical EUM. If this is any consolation, when he said how great etc, you were he absolutely meant it. Unfortunately, these people have an attention span of a fish. Quite often they do love us but still can’t commit. I also know how disappointed you feel after all that hard and long work on yourself and then stumbling upon another EUM. I’ve been single for quite a long time now because I keep meeting EUMs. It’s just that I now recognise them much earlier and easier. But I don’t want to go back to EUM drama and I keep working on myself. As you, I’ve been in a situation when somebody consistently behaved as an ardent suitor only to later claim how I misunderstood the situation. I felt really bad, like I didn’t have proper sense to understand reality and therefore something was very wrong with me for imaging things. Greatest gift of reading BR and all the comments was when I realised there’s absolutely nothing wrong with me and I have a good judgement – I always knew when something was wrong, I just didn’t listen to myself. There was nothing wrong with me and reality. These guys were skillfully leading me on – it was them, they had a problem. These days, I’m no longer making other people’s problems my problems. To shorten this story, you were right to believe that he was very interested in you and the things’ve turned out this way because he’s a sad, AC EUM. This has nothing to do with you (except that obviously both you and I still need to learn something otherwise we wouldn’t be keeping meeting such guys).
Mephista, thank you for the lovely response and your thoughts. I do know the answer – why it is so hard to go from knowing the answer to doing something about it is that purgatory BR has helped me recognize. The “uncomfortable comfort zone,” where I’m going back and forth on the promises and my hopes and expectations and this stubborn unwillingness to see the person IN realty, two feet on the ground.
I am sorry you went through nearly the same thing. Good for you for coming to such powerful conclusions and end up affirming your perspective. His claiming that you misunderstood the situation – as though you can’t draw conclusion from words, actions, evidence that another person is putting forward – that made me feel like I was going bonkers. I felt bad, too, like I’d made a serious mistake, and I remember even saying in person, “I feel really foolish, like I missed something entirely,” and he said nothing. It almost felt like he was working hard to be as cold as possible.
There’s something really beautiful in what you wrote: “There was nothing wrong with me and reality” and how you were perceiving the situation. Being able to tell this person that it is him, that he has a problem, would feel good, but it will be enough for me to say it to myself.
One thing I do credit myself with is I could FEEL my expectations being managed down and lowered; in one of the few brief online conversations we’ve had during this whole No Calling period, the way he is talking to me has been passive, barely there … extremely happy when I mention I have to be in his town again soon for work … otherwise, it’s all him, all his problems, his therapy session. I had a friend look at his exchanges and they were shocked at how little he asks about me, how I am, what I’m thinking and working on. How am I growing?
I appreciate you saying that he mean it when he was praising me, which I am sure of – in person, not in person, his praise is genuine. But you can’t build a relationship out of someone’s praise and flattery. Recognizing a EUM for what he is may have to be my triumph here. Maybe that is the ultimate beauty of all this self-work. Clearly there is so much work left to be done and I’m only a third or a fourth of the way there. On we climb. Good luck.
Kangaroosong, ‘But I wil be respected’. What happens when someone disrespects you? Trust me, you can convert the idea of ‘but i will be respected’ into actions in all sorts of ways that are disrespectful to yourself. You cannot MAKE someone respect you. You can tell them what they are doing is disrespectful but even for that you need a real relationship. A month of intense phone calls and texts is not a relationship, you have no claims on this fellow. The classy classy thing to do would be to never contact him again and never speak to him again. He sounds like a jerk. AND if you want to be respected, then YOU respect you very simply by realizing that when you have such a great connection with another person you want a relationship out of it. Since he doesnt, loss is his, you’re moving on. This is exactly what this post is about – ambiguity hooks us, and we feel loss, sometimes we want the other person to pay for this. This man owes you nothing, the more you get in a snit about it, the more power you give him, the more you need him to validate your opinion that he is crap (who would do that? you are trapping yourself). You feel cheated of your return to dating perhaps? Who cares! You had some fun conversations with a guy that turned out to be a bit of b.s.-er – thats fine! the conversations were still fun werent they? Why read more into it now that theres clearly no there there? Move on. Enjoy life. Have some kindness in your heart for yourself and for this guy who is too scared to convert a fun connection into anything real. You learnt a lot from this – you learnt that you can have fun conversations with a guy, you havent forgotten how etc. Next time? Dont chat for hours a day building up this deep connection with someone before you know what they’re about (or go ahead, knowing that you cannot have expectations of them till they unfold a lot more, enjoy what you have with them). Dont give your heart so easily. I understand that you felt loss when he said he doesnt want a relationship, thats fine. If he ever repeats that tell him ‘dont flatter yourself’.
Dont tell him off. Walk away. You dont have to have the last word, you can validate your own experience of this ambiguous friendship. Dont let him know what you think. There is no reward in that for you or for him.
Hi Suki – that’s some real talk you’re giving and I dig it! That last part really hit home – that I got so invested in the talking without the action, which is obviously what got me in trouble. The fact that I was happy to get so excited over JUST conversation/texts/calls means I set myself up for a massive drop. I’ve been coming to some really painful, hard conclusions and realizations about how much more work I have left to do on myself. Namely confronting why I was so happy to jump into this before even meeting.
Very true, everything you are saying – I can’t agree more that no one can make anyone respect anyone. I didn’t get to detail every part of the interaction of course, but one of the interesting things he kept saying is, “I respect you deeply/I respect your work and creative output so much/I respect your work ethic/I want to be where you are one day” (we are in similar artistic fields). You respect me, you say, (he said) … I think, well, that is great. But you have to act on your respect. You don’t disappear on someone after being intimate with them then pop up three weeks later to press Reset.
I don’t think people need to have a real relationship to discuss respect or disrespect – I do so with my friends often – if we feel disrespected we tell one another and then explain ourselves. Indeed I have no official claims on him and whatever emotional bond or connection there was, I’ll need to mourn it. Because that bond is going to wreck me if it is in this ‘ambiguous’ grey space this post is originally about.
I guess when I said in my most that “I will be respected” I meant more, I’ll put MYSELF in a position where I’ll be respected, and if that is away from him, so be it. We have to respect ourselves and act on that respect.
I didn’t expect the return to dating would be a smooth ride, but you’re totally dead-on and kind in pointing out that the ability to get out there, to talk, flirt, laugh, connect – should be celebrated.
I didn’t lose it, it didn’t die with the person I thought I was going to marry only a year and some months ago.
I will walk away without needing the last word. He can figure it out on his own. Again I appreciate your harsh truths. I needed them and now will try to enjoy what comes ahead. 🙂
I apologize for typos – “post” not “most”!
Trying to answer each person here and it’s taking some time one by one – but thank you ALL for this incredible community and your support!! It means such a great deal. 😀
KangarooSong,
Flush. NC. You can tell him that this arrangement of long distance fantasy is not working for you and go NC. You don’t have to say anything to go NC. Either way.
I reread the story twice. He is a long distance fantasy. That’s all. The red flags: telling his friends and his mother how amazing you are and how it feels right. Even before he met you and spent time with you. Then pulling away once you two met. Not wanting a relationship. He lives in a fantasy world. He doesn’t want and can’t have a relationship. Then, after you were gone, he wants to see you and can’t wait to see you. The first thought that came to my mind is “He must be crazy.” Sounds like a bipolar or mood disorder to me. Or more likely someone who doesn’t know what he wants. All I can say that this is not a good sign. The way the relationship started and how it is developing.
I haven’t dated for a year almost since after the breakup. I have read a lot of stories here about dating after a break and I see it’s pretty hopeless. It’s fine. The important thing is to learn to be comfortable by yourself. That’s all what matters. Then, if it is meant to be, you will meet someone.
My advice: FLUSH.
With no doubts.
” After two years of not dating, I did not want this to be how I re-entered the pool.”
That’s the key here. You are holding on to the broken hopes and illusions especially after you have waited so long, for 2 years. You believe you learned it, you earned it, and it just COULDN’T be you got an EU again.
That’s what holding you on to this situation. It’s the “but why after so much work on myself and 2 years of being single, don’t I deserve a good person?”
OF COURSE YOU DO.
But that person is EU and an asshole.
When it’s the right time you will meet someone. This person is the not the right person. Clearly.
KangarooSong, that does sound painful. You probably exchanged a fair amount of information in your writing/phone exchange and probably feel that you opened up emotionally to him.
What a let-down to find that in-person is too much for him. “I never said anything about a relationship” is disingenuous. Talking to a woman on the phone for hours signals a lot of interest, and anyone who really didn’t want to get your hopes up wouldn’t do that. Sounds like you got ‘fast-forwarded’ with all the “amazing woman” stuff that he was not ready to act on.
The pity party he’s throwing himself as he pulls back makes me want to give him a slap on your behalf. Oh poor me, he’s saying, to deflect attention from ways he’s likely been a bit of a jerk.
You can read above my little story of what my first re-entry into the dating pool has been after four years. That guy knew better, too. I’ve heard nothing from him after he told me how great I am again and again, insisted only the week before that he had “always liked me” and was offended that I should ever wonder if it was just about sex for him. Whatever their excuses are, whatever actually comes out of their mouths, the actions / the withdrawing / the telling you to date other people: that’s what we must pay attention to. Sounds like you know all this.
I’m still sort of where you are at: still thinking about telling the guy off, still imagining running into him/getting the chance to make him have to face up to his own behaviour, but it’s less every day and I have not gotten in touch with him. I went completely silent. I’m glad I did.
I vent on my own, on paper, or even talk to myself in the car (like a crazy lady, telling him off though he’s not even there), and when I calm down I’m always able to focus on the fact that I did not chase him down when his attention dropped off. I don’t think that there is any way that a confrontation, which basically means giving the guy my energy and attention, will end up with me feeling more satisfied in the end. So as much as I’d like to get to see him own up to something, I’m realistic about what the likely outcome of pursuing that is, and return to feeling good about not feeding his ego while I take care of my own self.
We can’t force other people to be respectful. Try to remember that his disrespect of you does not mean you are “disrespectable” but means he does not know, want or care to handle his interactions with care, trust or maturity.
In my own situation, it *feels* like he suddenly changed his mind; like maybe he saw something about me he didn’t like and has just backed off. But the sudden change happened at about the time I was more clear about my interest in a relationship – i.e. wanting to go on an actual date. It sounds like when things got more “serious” – i.e., the “pressure” of actually having to see you in real life, his true colours began to show. People unfold, as NML says.
I’m with you all. What IS IT with these guys?! I took a bunch of time off dating and when I finally decided to engage again, I got two back to back guys that showed interest and made assertions about getting together, future plans, etc., then dropped off the face of the earth. I went through the cycle of doubts about myself, was I talking too much, did I come off as weird, did they see my wrinkles, etc. etc. etc…..but I come to the conclusion that I was normal enough and they are just men with bad manners who feel entitled. They have every right NOT to like me or change their mind, but to future fake and mislead us just sucks.
So, I went NC and made a choice. I will never beg for attention again or chase after a man who treated me like I was an option. My new found peace is much too precious and a man who has no integrity can’t take mine away. I guess if we want to date and find a good man, we need to weed through the thorns and poison ivy that try to invade our garden.
Selkie,
Spot on!
Not every man will fall for us, but it is wrong to mislead with the prospect of a future.
Glad you saw it for what it was: nothing.
Love it ( invade your garden ) that is awesome an visual to have.
Yes – I have been doing the same thing, I imagine them as coming with a “FOG” and they are not clear, and the “FOG” is to try and delude me that there may be more, Where there is not more but only more PAIN.
Let the “FOG” go where it wants, I do not want to explain to the “FOG” any-longer than what I want is something clear, It can go some place else.
And the “FOG” only wants a part of what I have to feel secure for itself and yet want’s to keep itself away from knowing me the same.
Kangaroo,
This guy is a total mind fuck!!!!
Go NC. You owe him nothing! Your silence will say much more than telling him who he is. If you tell him off, he won’t hear a word, but think your are over emotional.
He is playing games and is also using you as an emotional crutch. If things are starting out this badly, I can’t imagine how it would be down the line.
Remember, you really didn’t know this dude, as you only met once. You cannot know an individual until you have regular physical contact.
Please look into Nat’s articles on fantasy relationships, and look for someone local.
Roo
Yep, this frustrating to get “back out there” only to be saddled with an EU. It would be great if we, after doing so much work on ourselves, learning everything we can, were rewarded with a terrific looking guy with his s@#$ together. Doesn’t work that way. You get what’s out there, period. EU types approach all and sundry, including all manner of down and outers, relationship phones, dudes living with their mommies at 50+. Tis no reflection on you, this about the dating pool in your area. And nope, you cannot force anyone to respect you; you can only respect yourself and act accordingly. It’s NC time.
Hate this damned phone. Sposed to read “EU types approach all and sundry as do relationship phobes”. “This” was supposed to be “tis”. I swear it’s a plot by phone companies to make us seem like inarticulate twits.
Noquay- My sister and I concluded that cellphones are space aliens changing our words to their language killing two birds with one stone: Communicating with each other while driving us to the breaking point. It’s part of their plot to take over the world.
Sorry to hear it, KangarooSong —
Believe him when he tells you he doesn’t want a relationship. And believe him when he tells you he can’t wait to see you again. Because he thinks you’ll settle for being his f*ck-buddy — he’s trying to ‘friends-with-benefits-zone’ you.
Run, like your heels are on fire and your arse is catching.
Exactly right.
Here, the new version of the playboy:
Mr. Sensitive/We connect/Mental masturbation/Now Let’s get busy!
And if he ever does call you, for a date, you tell him that you are seeing someone. Keep the conversation short. Don’t answer any question(s) that he may have after you drop that bomb on him.
As to any other form of correspondence from him (texts, email, fb), ignore it all. Don’t respond at all.
KangarooSong – I think he’s doing the classic EU song and dance…blowing super hot….and then super cold. I am really sorry you are hurt…but cut your losses now. If you stick around, this dance will continue. He has told you this weekend who he is. Believe him and walk away.
KangarooSong, I’m sorry, I know how disappointing this must be, but I think you need to move on. Whenever someone is giving mixed messages, you need to listen to the negative things that are being said and forget about everything else. It’s all too easy to hold onto the positive things he’s said and the great connection you have, but it means nothing if he’s telling you that he does not want a relationship.
Hello everyone, i am fairly new hear and enjoy reading all the comments and advice. I also have read some of Natalie’s work and she has already helped me so much with the advice she has given. As a result, i have decided to finally let go of my EUM/Assclown. But i need more help to follow through.
For starters i meet him 3 years ago. We started off hot and heavy, but he was not ready for a relationship but gae me all the attention that made me believe otherwise. During this time he had no job, car and he was staying with his parents. I didn’t want to judge him based on that because i liked him alot. So i ended up renting him cars to look for a job. Even letting him use one of mines when he finally got a job, and lending him money that he never paid back.
Eventually he started to pull back as he got his self more on his feet and then he left me. But still keep one foot in the door, having sex with me etc. But made it clear that any chance of a relationship is not happening. Me being a big ol dummy kept going on with this in hopes that he will change his mind.
Well during this one foot in and one foot out period. I found out through facebook that he had a baby with his ex, while he was with me. Also, that he played between the both of us the whole time i was with him. I was devastated but still could not let go. I tried no contact but he would call me a million times and eventually i would give in and wind up back at square one.
He has disrespected me numerous times, lied, cheated when he finally agreed to be in a relationship with me and used me until he got on his feet. And he still continues this until this very day. And i have continued to allow it.
Now after coming to this site i am finally seeing the light and i need to break free. I dont know why i have continued to allow this man in my life. It may be because im addicted to the sex because now that i think of it that is all he has to offer. I really need help, this cycle is destroying my heart and my soul. Please help me.
All these men saying that they are not ready for a relationship, the constant theme … What do they actually mean ? Is it, I am not grown up enough to put anyone’s feelings as important as my own, or even nearly as important as my own state of being. I don’t want to do anything,that won’t benefit me in the short term. I don’t want to have to be accountable to anyone, I just want to get what I can, when I can. I don’t want to care, I don’t want to build anything, I just want to consume.
Ambiguity, intrigue, all a smokescreen for selfish and mean individuals. Maybe they are deeply damaged on another level, but the part that is showing up to us, is just a user.
I am not ready for a relationship, boring, yawn, flush .
Victory
I will probably be taken to task for being an elitist b@#$% for this but so be it. Sometimes judging is a good thing. If someone is an adult, jobless, living with parents, and this has been a long term, nearly permanent situation, not a temporary period of rebuilding ones life, there’s a serious problem. Sounds like this dude has zero sense of dignity nor responsibility. It’s hard when you really care for someone, but an irresponsible person never will be relationship ready until they address this issue. Yep, you are addicted to the sex and unwilling to write off your investment. Why? You are being used as an extension of his parents.
Victory,
This guy had nothing to offer from the beginning. No job or car, and living with parents. Sorry, but he is a loser!!! How old is he?
My question: are you in the habit of paying for men? If so, why do you believe you need to support some dude?
He dumped you when his situation improved, and also had a child with another woman. Good Lord! For the respect of the baby and this other woman, cut contact!
You still wanted a relationship after all the evidence, and to do day, are still sleeping with him.
I know I am being tough, but these are your words. This is not about the sex (Excuse!), but your inability to let go of a complete LOSER! You need to address your issues with self-esteem, because if you don’t you will continue this pattern with another nothing of a man like him.
Leave this ridiculous situation. You’re doing tremendous self-damage!
Victory,
You need to stop allowing people to use you.
This is on you, as you have known who this guy is for years!
Bravo Allison, well said.
It can happen even when there was no sex, your not alone, they like to get their claws into your ability to commit knowing full well they cannot, will not, are not ready or whatever the hell it is..
I don’t think it’s always our weaknesses that can draw people in but sometimes also our strengths that they themselves lack which in turn always = Pain, it’s hard to believe it when someone want’s to do something for so damn looong a time that you know you would not prefer to do to anyone yourself even for one week, It’s almost inconceivable.
Sex for females often yes means getting that emotional attachment, “even if it is to a total douche.”
Just get to the point where if you would NOT do it to someone? then it should NOT be done to you either.
Honestly I think the only reasons I may have been any UE was believing I was not enough of something, it was only pounded into my head since I was three years old.
But there was always another part of me that knew it had to been utter BS becasue I was never “enjoying” all those 1/2 @ssed things, so something WAS enough there regardless to let me know that much, LOL!
Truth.
Sorry JangarooSong, but this was the misnomer of a connection built online. A fantasy connection. Get to know people in real life, go slow and let them unfold face to face. Look carefully at yourself because your level of investment after one real weekend and one month of fantasy creation online is so high, I would think you are not emotionally available. He certainly isn’t.
I learn’t the lesson re reliance on online and other forms of digital communication BS in 2011/12, have moved past it and have never made the same mistake again and never will. You are BSsing yourself if you think you ever shared anything real with this doofus. It’s harsh I know and I am sorry you are going through this but if you pay attention to why you chose fantasy over realness there is so much potential growth on the offing for you. Good luck.
Jaaaaayyyyysus! Bunch of Olivia Popes runnin’ around all up in here! 🙂
A few things to address:
A man who says he has “phone anxiety” is a total douche.
These “men” (ahem *cough* and I use that word so lightly almost to be negligible in this convo…)aren’t worth the brief jumps between synapses that it takes our brains to try and figure out all their shenanigans….
Just move on, ladies. Nothing (and I mean NOTHING) to see here.
Love,
a fellow ambiguous-lovin’ fool,
Revs
Also interesting how that idea of “connection” comes up again and again. I think it’s true that we are often projecting our own communication skills onto others.
Also, building “connections” with (almost random) other people is part of many professions: Salespeople, journalists… Which means, it’s a skill that can be honed. It doesn’t say anything about shared values, goals, emotional availabilty and so on.
I agree, I used the ‘amazing connection’ line only to have it repeated back to me in a later conversation. What I then realised was he would take my projections and reinforce them. Clever sales man indeed.
OMG I love your timing Natalie, such an amazing read!
I have been seeing a guy for a few months but things just didnt go anywhere, we were fb texting only (!), he never called, sometimes took days to respond etc. huge red flags, I know! But whenever we would meet in person, he took me out or cooked for me, so it wasnt just sex…I was thinking I just leave it but he then always contacted me again. So a few days ago I started asking him questions and wanted to know what his real intentions were. Though I know I should have paid attention to his actions instead of forcing him to spell it out but I guess I needed some closure, I needed to hear it from him, I needed to hear it to help me move on. I just got tired of waiting on him and hoping…So finally after a few days of nagging and demanding him to reveal his intentions (I told him that I ultimately want a relationship and want to continue seeing him only if he wants the same), he sent me a text saying that he is just not looking for a relationship at the moment and gave me some lame excuses why. Though I have feelings for him, I just felt so relieved…Because at least I know now, I know this is not going anywhere and I can start the process of grieving and moving on. I just feel so much better! He ended his msg by saying that “maybe we could have a discussion about it down the road”. Hahaha sure! I did not respond a single word. And I won’t. First I felt bad, thiking I should wish him good luck or something but hell no! He obviously has known that he does not want anything serious yet kept dragging me on, so he doesnt deserve my attention or time any more. No good wishes, nothing! Thanks for the wonderful post again Nat! Wishing everyone a great weekend! xxx
KangarooSong – really felt for you reading your story. These guys are so convincing, so ardent, it feels like reality had been turned on its head when they start to back off/deny etc.
What struck me as I read it was that these guys are CON MEN! And they’re so clever, who knows, they might even have themselves fooled, but ultimately, it’s a con. What is promised was never going to be delivered, that’s the whole point of a con. But, if you’re someone who is vulnerable to the EU games, you’ll be tempted to try to get back the thing you were promised, or make them see how wrong they’ve been, because you already feel like you own that wonderful ‘reality’…
Just want to add, I remember going back out there having learned everything from BR and had therapy and recognised my own tendencies to fall for EUS, and the very first guy I attracted, and was attracted to, had so many red flags, he was practically bunting. But this was a good thing – luckily nothing happened, I didn’t pursue it. I recognised it, and I was angry – at life, at my programming, at the world – but I used it as a warning that more work was needing to be done if I was to avoid the same fate I’d been pursuing for the last 15 or so years.
By the time I got back into the world of dating properly, I had finally learned to love and accept myself, I had internalised all the learning and those red flag guys with their intensity, and their issues, were repellent to me. They just seemed childish,and fake, borderline psychotic and totally un-self aware, and how attractive is that? And that’s when i met a wonderful, genuine, emotionally available guy. They do exist, I promise you. And when that happens, it’s not scary, it feels right. Because I know I deserve it. I FEEL that. Because I worked my ass off to get to the stage where I could recognise a healthy thing when i saw it.
I still visit BR because BR readers feel like my people, and Natalie’s wisdom is just incredible, and, as I’ve said in a previous post, these issues are not just about expecting more from relationships, but from every relationship, including work, family, friends, and especially ourselves, and it’s always going to be a work in progress to some extent, to learn how to love ourselves enough that we won’t accept crappy treatment/bullshit flattery/manipulation from others.
I’m not saying do the internal work on yourself and you’ll definitely meet a great partner (I think we have to learn to love ourselves for its own sake, because it’s a basic grounding of peacefulness that we all should have been brought up with and obviously weren’t.) But I do say, don’t do the work, and you’ll probably keep on attracting, and being attracted to, the con men/women because the problem isn’t out there, it’s in us. But at least ‘us’ is something we do actually have control over.
Good luck KangarooSong – it’s really hard to have your dreams stomped on, but this might be the relationship that makes you realise you are DONE with the bullshit in all areas of life. And that’s when life starts to get really good.
“They just seemed childish, and fake, borderline psychotic and totally un-self aware, and how attractive is that?”
Over the past couple weeks I have asked myself why I was drawn to someone who did feel like he was childish and faking it. For me, there is usually something else going on in the interaction that I make too much of … right now I think that verbal skills, business skills, work discipline, community connectedness – all those things remind me of the daddy I always wished I could have.
It has been difficult for me to believe that someone who could have all those “maturity” indicators that my own father never had could still be missing other qualities, particularly empathy, qualities that I also need to make non-negotiable.
In part, I just didn’t want to see what I was seeing. You may not identify with some of the behaviours described here, but (unfortunately) I do. If I had known that men not only saw my vulnerability but had an easy rationale for using it/me, I might have trusted my senses more. This is a link to a guys’ forum that to me is a window on attitudes that I was not willing to admit were being directed at me (I guess I didn’t want to admit the degree of disrespect):
I’m not sure if I’ve adequately made the connection between this post and these thoughts … I’ve been trying to understand why they give a bit of attention and then reap the benefits, while also not minimising my role in having blown up the attention crumbs into more than they were. It’s a terrible dynamic: if they throw a crumb, and we react like it’s a loaf (or even just take a step closer, being like, Where-There-Be-Crumbs,-There-Must-Be-Loaf), they get the signal we don’t respect ourselves and aren’t worthy of their respect either. Then that’s the green light for them to take/get what they can until we finally get wise.
“Its not our job as men to fix or worry about women’s “issues” or emotional problems or abusive parents or any other BS that f*cked them up. They are adults and they need to get medicated or seek help if they have issues. That’s not our f*cking problem.
You should absolutely use attention wh0res for sex if given the opportunity. And if that screws them up more then… welcome to the real world. Either you can hack it or you can’t.”
These guys have triggered the hurt part of me, the part wanting to be able to ‘hack it in the real world’, and I’ve tried to be ‘mature,’ when in the end – even though they see themselves as worldly and ‘real’ – they are the immature ones.
Magnolia- I clicked on the link and read the full two pages. Honestly, the most mature, most “real” post came from a 19 yr. old who said that the men who are thinking, analyzing, and posting about attention wh*res are the actual AWs. Honestly, these men are only interested in trying to impress each other, nothing to do with real life, real relationships.
Magnolia, I agree with Allison. You are being way, way too hard on yourself. Look at all you’ve been through this past year with your health and what that means for certain dreams you had for your future, your job loss, having to move back in with your parents…Magnolia, this is A LOT to process and accept.
As far as the guy goes…you liked a guy and allowed yourself to be open to a relationship. He’s the one who failed you, who lied to you and lead you on. So many people on this blog think they have to be perfect. It’s like, “I was attracted to somebody who turned out to be an AC. I went NC right away but because I found him attractive before finding out means I have more work to do…” Seriously?? If you wait until you’re perfect before dating again then say goodbye to dating again. 😉
Dear Magnolia,
I was struck by this comment of yours and wanted to say something.
It looks to me like you are in a stage of grief, meaning that you are making connections between things that have happened to you and feeling the sadness about the outcoming realizations. So technically, even if the things in the guys’ forum are NOT directed at you,
[“This is a link to a guys’ forum that to me is a window on attitudes that I was not willing to admit were being directed at me (I guess I didn’t want to admit the degree of disrespect)”],
it is good that you are projecting yourself there and drawing lessons from this.
That said, an analogy comes to mind about going into that forum: it is like I am a prostitute, and I go to my pimp and ask him what he thinks about men-women relationships. Then of course I will feel very hurt by his answer. But the point is that we are not under the thumb of people with this mindset; we can get out of such situations in many ways today.
Whoever in your life said to you or implied to you those things that are written in that forum, used and abused you, and you have to find your anger and rebel to such treatment to be able to break free from them. No need to prove yourself “mature” or “able to hack it”, which actually means to prove yourself worthy of their abuse (there’s some other post of NML specifically about this but i can’t recall its title now).
Hopefully I didn’t go too far in analogies and such and this answer is of some help to you.
Best wishes, V.
Thank you Noquay for your response, and every single word you said was correct. And yes i am addicted to him, and i want to break this addiction NOW! I have sent him a very long text this morning saying my Goodbye’s and still wishing him well even though he has done me so wrong.
My problem now is why? Why would i allow a man to reject me more than twice? Why would i allow his disrespect? And why would i continue to allow any man to repeatedly lie, and cheat on me with no regards to my feelings at all. And why would i continue to let him use me for money and sex? Knowing that he had no real intentions of being with me, and knowing that he is having babies and playing between me and other girls, why?
I feel like my self esteem is gone. I keep thinking of the few good times instead of thinking about all the wrong he has done and still continues to do. I try to date other men but it never works because i cant get my mind of him. I mean it feels like every second of the day i think of him.
Please someone knock some sense into me. Please someone help me get creep out of my mind and heart. Im going crazy!!!
Victory,
I think it may be best to stay out of the dating pool, as others are not going to make you feel better about yourself or change your patterns.
Please, look into counseling to understand your choices, as I’m certain these beliefs impact all aspects of your life. it might be a good idea to take a long break from dating.
Remember, healthy attracts healthy!
You’ve said your goodbyes and did so with dignity.Now is the time to never see nor hear from this douche again. Anyplace he may be, you won’t; delete him from Faceplant or any social media site; remove his number from your phone. Healing just plain takes time; the less you have to see/hear about him, the easier it is. It is easy to become addicted as the process of meeting someone new is so damned daunting. Though not addicted, I am always saddened by seeing “my” AC and it sucks because I work with the dude and have to see him 3-4 times/week. I have been applting for other jobs, trying hard to get my home sale-able but nothing seems to be working at present. I’ve gotten out there; just got on line to troll, no photo, no paid sub, just to see what’s available and all I can say is Ewwww! I stuck with someone I shouldve dumped a year ago, not because I ever really could love him but because I then had a decent looking, intelligent guy to spend time with. In my case, I am probably spoiled by having had a great marriage to a man I greatly admired and respected. I used to admire and respect the AC. When you feel very attracted to someone or felt you had a really great connection, its hard to give up that investment, especially when there appear to be zero good options and you feel horribly stuck. Again, it takes a lot of time and getting somewhere where you can be with folks that value, not use you.
Thanks Nat for such a right-to-the-heart post. I used to be in a ‘not-knowing-what-kind’ relationship with a guy who once in a few days texted, messaged me, asking me out sometimes or if i ever missed him, yet never did have time for me. And deep down inside, I somehow sensed the presence of a few other girls. Thing kept going on for almost a year, and in the end, suddenly I could just dump him, feeling so relieved.
However, presently, a girl friend of mine who is in a distant relationship with a guy. And again, somehow I have a feeling that he’s like Mr. Big in SATC, through what she’s been telling me. He’s like someone with good money and plenty of women to choose from yet so little time for you, and sometimes even disappears for a few days then being back without any believable explanation. I don’t want to be too nosy with my friend’s business and i don’t want to be too mean to someone you have never met, so i keep telling myself he’s good for her if she accepts it or who knows he might be the one who rarely likes to explain himself. I don’t know.
This is, as ALWAYS, so on point. Thank you!
I have been baselessly infatuated with a woman for four years (i.e. barely acquaintances), have had other relationships, but I have made her into the perfect woman, like the house you pass by on your way to work every day, thinking, “When I finally make it, I’m buying that house.” Literally.
She and I recently became social, went out a few times, she was “wowed” about me, we made out one blissful evening…and I have been trying to lock down ONE explicit date with The Busiest Woman On Earth who wondered to me “how was I supposed to know you liked me?”
Between the longtime crush (How could I have been wrong? I’m not wrong!), to the “meant to be” timing (So close to being together, so how can I ever move on without closure [from what?]), to her hot-then-passive-then-hot interest, and spending vast amounts of time together where we don’t stop talking, and where we have SO much in common in terms of future plans and career values and intelligence, and also blah blah blah…this damn article pops up.
It’s hard to let go of nothing, especially nothing more than, you know, the fantasy of happiness and success as confirmed with this woman. It is a GIANT in my head: a fantasy with this woman has augmented, assuaged, and motivated every good or bad event in my life for quite some time, like a safe place I would go…and now, oops! She’s very real! and of course more interesting and nuanced and lovely than I imagined! and she’s interested! or she’s not that interested…or maybe she is…but I can’t see the real thing for the fantasy.
Thank you Allison very much for your response, and not to worry a little TOUGH love is needed in cases like this. But just to clear something about about cutting contact because of the baby and mother. First, let me say that cutting contact will not be for respect of her or the baby, it will be for me. It is his job to respect her if this is who he chooses to be with. I dont know her, he does.
I didnt not get with him when she was in the picture. When him and i met they were not together at the time. As a matter of fact she was living with an ex she left him for when i came in the picture. So it wasn’t a case to where i came in the picture and he was with her at that same time, NO. They weren’t together see was with someone else and when that ended she came back to my guy and he excepted and thats how that happened. So i was never the other woman, when it comes to her.
Now dont get me wrong everything you say about him is totally correct and thats why im here. I do need to cut contact, not for him or her. But for me. I am aware that my self esteem is gone. And thats why im trying to figure out why i have excepted this unacceptable behavior from him. I admit that i need to move on and that he is not good for me. I just need advise on how to follow through.
I am aware that he is a loser and how much wrong he has done. No denying that. But sometimes its easier said than done. No matter how much of a jerk he is. So i must be addicted to something.Therefore i am trying to break the cycle.He is not married or anything he is just a cheating dog that i need to rid myself of.
Victory,
Please do not say you’re addicted! I find this an easy excuse to hold on to someone/something. Many choices in life are not easy, but when you clearly know that something is bad, it must stop! I loved the man I was involved with, but it was a shitload of drama and had no future. It had to end.
You stop by cutting contact. You block and delete everything, then you begin to address your issues. Maybe, it’s easier to stay in this muck, than to deal with you that’s why you chose to stay stuck.
I understlood the situation with the baby momma. But, it is your responsibility to repspect the child and this woman, even if you don’t know them. I’ve seen a repeating theme. Where the other woman does not see her part in these situations, and I think they are half to blame- tha fact that you’re continuing to sleep with him.
I think you need to decide when enough is enough. I mean, how much more can he possibly disrespect you! I don’t know how much lower he could go.
Victory,
Is he with this woman, today?
This is slightly off topic, but I’m feeling a lot of anxiety.
I wrote earlier that I’d ‘officially’ ended a ‘whatchamacallit’, not by telling him but by telling myself and accepting there was no future with him.
I internalised it very well (in the past I’d KNOWN it was wrong to invest so heavily, but my feelings never allowed me to stop hoping). So … I decided to contact a man I met by chance recently. He’d shown interest but I dismissed it because he seems to have different political views and is slightly older than the age bracket I’d hoped for.
I decided that as in the past, I was creating obstacles because he was available, these issues aren’t necessarily deal-breakers, and I had to get out of my comfort zone if my life is to change. I couldn’t dismiss him for not being this ‘perfect’ person who is ultimately a fantasy and is not here with me, and doesn’t treat me with respect and consideration. There is no evidence that this man doesn’t share my core values.
He responded very sweetly, not laying it on heavy but suggesting we meet up for a chat. We haven’t even said it’s a date, though it surely is. He’s being quite romantic, sending me some of his artwork, and is clearly a million miles from the last douche I dated (not the whachamacallit, someone else). He’s not making demands or assumptions, or asking me invasive questions, but I still have this deep fear in me that I want to articulate – I’m inspired by the honesty of others on here, and it makes me want to be honest too.
I woke up with a dread that I could lose the freedom I cherish, that he could get in the way of the things I’m passionate about, that he could try to make me change or dim my light. It was so overwhelming that it made me feel hopeless, it’s one of the most upsetting feelings I get. Where I think it comes from, is that my comfort zone is with unavailable men and I easily feel suffocated. I realise that I have some fear of being alone forever and not sharing my life, but the fear of being trapped by someone is much stronger. This is the clearest insight i’ve had for a long time into my own unavailability .. but I don’t want to be this way forever, I have to actively change it.
Writing it out makes me see that unless there are any real red flags before we meet, I need to face my fear and experience a date with no expectations or baggage, to have belief in myself that I will do the right thing by me, to know that he’s not going to turn up with a contract and ask me to sign the rest of my life and happiness and independence away, and that if I do get that horrible cornered feeling or the awkwardness of knowing it could never work, at least I’ve tried and had the courage to break through the fear barrier.
I know how you feel Happy B,
When I initially left my mega bad relationship I thought that I was too dependant on others. I thought that I was needy and clingy. This is because he used to say I was.
As time past, a creeping realisation crept in where I realised that I was actually a lot more independent than I had thought! Actually I was “unavailably independent” I always knew that I could stick it out with a man like my ex because deep down I wasn’t actually ready for a real, loving and intimate relationship.
Shock horror! there were parts of me that actually liked the fact he barely wanted to spend time with me. It meant I never had to feel too close. (It took me a lot of work to realise this about myself by the way.)
I am a lot more ready now but it still can feel super uncomfortable for me to actually have someone giving to me. I am not a great receiver. I keep people at a distance and use my giving as a shield. I do this with family and friends too, not only romantic relationships.
I am getting round my need for independence by doing healthy independent things. I am living on my own for the first time now and that kind of fuels my need for independence in a way I had not considered before. It was scary but ultimately I think the experience will help balance out my independency issues. It also means I have to ask for help which is something I am not good at.
Its great you recognise how you feel about a close relationship that is the first step.
Always remember though that the right person will help you feel more comfortable.
Take it slowly with this guy and try not to overthink things. Try and be in the moment as much as possible and keep your thoughts independent of him. You can be you and still be with someone else.
Happy,
What type of independence do you think you will lose?
Hon, you haven’t even been on a date yet, and have created an elaborate scenario. You need to chill!
Have you done any counseling?
@happy b: “I woke up with a dread that… he could try to make me change or dim my light.” This is typical behavior of assclowns and other toxic people! Healthy people won’t do this.
I think having this kind fear (I’m familiar with this as well) means we aren’t trusting our own boundaries. Also, we might be reliving earlier trauma.
@ Boo, your comments are very incisive, thanks for understanding 😉
‘When I initially left my mega bad relationship I thought that I was too dependant on others. I thought that I was needy and clingy.’ Snap – he didn’t tell me in so many words, but certainly made me feel it. My brother also said, when I told him I felt he didn’t care about me, that I should be more independent. So I had key people in my life pushing me away for demanding a minimal amount of care, and I internalised this and developed to be very independent, possibly too much. Like you though, I’m not good at receiving things and even at a very young age, I didn’t like getting big gifts from people or attention, it would make me feel embarrassed, so I think it’s partly my nature.
At the same time I WAS needy because the people I believed to be in my inner circle, who I allowed to influence me the most, were not giving me what I needed, and I would sometimes want friends to fill the emotional gaps.
I have grown a lot since then and also live alone. It has made me reach out to the community and build a more active life, you really have to in a city and it has been a good experience.
The dilemma in dating for me is knowing whether your gut tells you it’s wrong, or if it’s the discomfort of leaving your comfort zone. With this guy I started out with the former, but then realised the people who feel right to me never are actually right, and I have nothing to lose by going on one date. But I agree with you I definitely don’t think I should go through more discomfort and will know very soon if he can make me feel comfortable.
@ Allison, good question. I guess when I look back, there were 2 people in my life who were sky-high controlling, abusive and suffocating over a number of years between them (some contrast to the ‘not bothered’ ones!), so this is perhaps what left me with ‘fierce independence’ and feeling more comfortable as an EU.
You’re right I need to chill, but working all this out and offloading this baggage here feels valuable enough to me. I have done lots of counselling and now think I have the tools to cope. I’ve turned around all areas of my life except dating, which is the final frontier.
@ EllyB, very incisive again – firstly that the depth of the freak-out tells me definitely was reliving a trauma, just hard to pick out which one out of so many! And secondly that it is down to not trusting our own boundaries.
Right, to update on this, I don’t think I can go ahead with the date now.
I contacted him on sunday, then he suggested meeting for a chat, I said ok but would be busy this week, and he sent his number for me to call. In my mind, I would phone him mid-week when things had calmed down and I could work out my schedule.
Since then, he’s emailed 4 more times with pictures on sunday, and twice today. They’re very nice and skilful pictures, he’s not demanding a response, but is it an overreaction to think this is too much? All I did was have a banal chat with him on a train, exchange business cards, and 2 very brief messages from me since.
I don’t like me or others to play by the rules, e.g. wait some formulaic amount of time for contact, but I still think he’s overstepped, though he seems a nice person. I feel that it’s almost disrespectful.
While before I thought, what’s the harm in a date, my feeling now is that in the little contact we’ve had, he’s always responded very quickly and with more than one message – do I really want this person to have my phone number, which I’d have to give if I go ahead? And if not, how do I call time on it? Maybe the anxiety was because my instincts were right all along.
Hi happy b,
you could try being very direct and tell him via email that so much contact seems a bit disproportionate to you with respect to your responses, and puts you in a bit of anxiety, so could he please refrain from doing this.
This allows you to discharge part of your anxiety in an acceptable and safe way, and according to his response you can decide about the date.
Your/our instincts are always right, but in my experience they do not predict the future till the end of our days, and some things are negotiable with reasonable people. And if it goes bad, at least you have a clearer idea of how things worked out.
Best wishes, V.
Gosh Happy B, Aren’t you over thinking things? You can decide to go on a date and if you do not want to go on another date after that then you say no to a second one. If he turns out to be an obsessive you just block him from your mobile. Basic safety goes without saying for strangers – meet in public,don’t go to his home and vice versa – you know, taking care of yourself.
Perhaps you should just forget this particular date though if you already feel anxious about this situ – whether you feel ‘justified’ in feeling anxious, whether it’s ‘him’ or ‘you’ surely is too hard to figure at this point – you have initiated ‘brief’ contact – perhaps as a test? – perhaps he ‘failed’ because of the emails/photos? The one thing to remember is that anxiety is an emotional response – sometimes it is not indicative of our intuition but is an emotional habitor symptom that actually masks intuition.
You sound so afraid of going on this potential date. From my perspective as a reader it’s hard to see why unless what you fear is an inability to say no to the guy if you want to or to take care of yourself, stand up for yourself and treat yourself with love care and respect on a date? Do you feel obligated to a stranger from a train? Are you afraid that one date or him showing interest means you are obligated? If so, why this uneven focus on how you imagine a stranger? There are unknowns here, just normal ones by the sound of it. What is going on with you trusting yourself?
Happy B, This is from Nat’s “Calming-that-anxiety-when-you-feel-jittery-in-a-new-relationship” (Camillah posted from same). It’s very succinct and clear and might help?
“Be honest about where the anxiety comes from. *If you haven’t been on a date yet* or have only been on a date or few and you have a high level of anxiety, going on dates without being emotionally honest enough to recognise where these feelings originate is *only going to compound it not relieve it*. It doesn’t necessarily mean that you have to stop dating but it does mean listening to your thoughts and feelings.
…If you feel scared, what are you scared of? What is the worst that can happen and how would you deal with it? Do you trust you? If you don’t, why are you dating? Be honest because these are baby steps in listening to and recognising your needs.
If it is early days, this is a code amber alert to come back to earth and go on a fantasy diet – you’re getting carried away.
Try a Feelings Diary and monitor how you feel and what else is happening during these times for a week or so. There may be other factors contributing such as work stress or even boredom.
By far, judging people and situations on merit so based on reality, along with checking in with you daily and having a respectful internal dialogue calms anxiety. You’re not exactly going to feel less anxious if you’re calling you “stupid” or feeding your mind with all sorts of drama scenarios!”
Happy B, I also think anxiety can flounder in the spaces left when we are stuck in indecisiveness. Surely it does all come back to trusting ourselves and acting in ways that are respectful and caring of ourselves? And no ones’s perfect, we can’t control what others do – let alone what we in our minds imagine they might do – mistakes are fine, we still have to make decisions and choices to actually ‘live’ and be who we are and own our own. Your choices re this man can be whatever you know is best for you – go on a date, don’t go on a date, give yourself more time to decide and take the self imposed pressure off. If the latter please remember you do not ‘owe’ a stranger a complete exposition of your internal dilemmas. Just communicate that you’re not able to meet for a chat at the moment but will get in touch on…xxx…The emotionally available or at least emotionally aware person needs to follow through on this – *if* he respects your wishes(if he does not respect your explicit wishes then it’s time to reassess). I think there’s only so long you can say “maybe” to someone before the EU flags start flying. So… yes, no or a maybe with a time limit.
Happy B,
I hope the fog is lifting a bit more for you. Virtual hugs.oo
I was re-reading the details about this guys responses. I wonder if it might be useful for you to try and pinpoint how his email behaviour triggers “I feel that it’s almost disrespectful”.
Here’s a brief summary from your comments:
You met on the train by chance and he showed interest and you had thoughts such as ‘wrong age, don’t like his political views’ and initially dismissed him (internally) as a possible date. You nonetheless exchanged cards/email at the time to be polite?( just guessing here as would probably be how I would respond if a stranger offered me his card after a chat on the train). You decided later that there would be no harm in following up as what you knew so far were not deal breakers/opposing values.
You sent brief email on Sunday – Hi x, just thought I’d get in touch after train chat etc?-. He responded politely and sweetly(?) suggesting you could meet up for a chat. You responded back saying – ok but I’m pretty busy this week and he then sent you his mob no. (suggesting you call when you’re free and you could sort a meet up then?). You were thinking you’d give him a call mid week. Then you received x2 unsolicited emails with photographic artwork (within the same hour/minute as email exchange?). On Sunday your initial response was that’s romantic. Then you got another two unsolicited emails yesterday(Tues). You don’t say what’s in them but you said they don’t need a response (more art? or looking forward to hearing from you, call me when you’re ready?).
Happy B, What is the alert in the above for you? We all have our own flags. What I’m suggesting is that perhaps if you can pinpoint what’s triggered you here the anxiety will lift and your gut feeling become clearer. So much easier from there to proceed with mindfulness, self trust and confidence.
“The dilemma in dating for me is knowing whether your gut tells you it’s wrong, or if it’s the discomfort of leaving your comfort zone. With this guy I started out with the former, but then realised the people who feel right to me never are actually right, and I have nothing to lose by going on one date. But I agree with you I definitely don’t think I should go through more discomfort and will know very soon if he can make me feel comfortable.”
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/calming-that-anxiety-when-you-feel-jittery-in-a-new-relationship/
@happyb
V, lizzp, Camillah,
I appreciate this sanity check. To clarify, I was not thinking at all of a possible date on the train, we just got talking because of an incident and he was with his ex wife, who I spoke with just as much, so I didn’t imagine he was chatting me up. He sent a follow-up email pretty quickly and I didn’t respond for 2 weeks because this is where I saw he was interested.
I think in talking about the trigger on anxiety, it was getting those messages yesterday. I wanted space before calling him. I guess I wanted to do this in baby steps, having plenty of time just to be me.
“Surely it does all come back to trusting ourselves and acting in ways that are respectful and caring of ourselves?”
Absolutely right, this is why dating feels like a ‘final frontier’ – I have learned to have my own back in friendships, with family and at work, but have not really dated since these transformations, so I don’t quite have the trust in myself. I’m no longer that person who found it hard to say no, and always put others before herself, and didn’t understand her boundaries, but reliving the idea of that person is scary.
I will call him.
Happy b,
Were the photographs offensive or weird in any way? How many of them were in one e-mail? An album of 100 + each time or just a few pictures?
I think the guy is interested and when someone is interested in someone and has a hobby and passion, they (selfishly because we are all selfish and proud on some level) want to share their treasure. Maybe it’s little bit too much for strangers, but I don’t think it’s anything to worry about. Unless the photographs were of offensive nature.
I say go on a first date with him. This doesn’t oblige you to anything. Just try it. Don’t worry so much. I understand you. I haven’t been on a date for almost two years. Well, if I count the first date with my ex in February 2013. He broke up with me in February 2014. So I would be very nervous too and especially after reading BR and learning my boundaries and everything about red flags, I would hesitate. Yes, really go on a first date. It might turn out a fun, relaxing and enjoyable experience. If anything, you will just practice your dating skills, like an interview skills, you know?
Don’t overthink, and just go:)
Good luck and let us know.
Thanks Sofia! The photos were of the city, and they were just a few. I called yesterday and left a message, then remembered the exciting, fun side of dating too as I relaxed after doing my part and waited for the response. It felt like a chore before that, I get nervous making phone calls, but happy we’re not texting. He seems very decent, I’ll report back. What would I do without BR? x
Hi Happy B and everyone, I hope I am not hijacking this particular strand of this thread, but it has given me a whole new thing to look at as I am trying to piece myself back together. I also suffer from being overly independent, bordering on “hermit-y” after being isolated in an abusive marriage of >15 years, and specific to this thread, am especially interested in how to “call time on” interactions that have exceeded my willingness to participate in them. I just don’t know how to gracefully end a conversation, or say “No” to practically anything, for that matter.
I now realise that is one major thing that accounts for my reluctance to engage with humans at all, and I have much resistance to making phone calls, even to people I know and like. As I am in the middle of getting divorced, I will no longer have the “I’m married” excuse to hide behind when someone takes an interest in me, although from what I am reading here on BR about the prospects for women my age (48), it sounds like that might actually be a good problem to have. Nevertheless, “contact overload” really blows my circuits and I have absolutely no idea how to regulate and control it, and I just seem to have an abnormally high level of social anxiety in general.
Tips or thoughts, anyone?
Brenda K – I didn’t get a reply button under your post, so hope you see this. By coincidence, I saw this quote from Nelson Mandela today:
“I learned that courage was not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man is not he who does not feel afraid, but he who conquers that fear.”
It sounds like you have very similar anxieties to me, of being cornered or overwhelmed by people (contact overload – like it!), and this fear returned to me vividly when I had that little freak-out I wrote about on this thread.
I wasn’t in an abusive marriage like you, but as these recent feelings have pinpointed, there were a few very controlling people in my life who must have traumatised me, and this gives me a fury towards people and horrible insecurity if I get an inkling they might want to do the same. So I had this moment of losing my reasoning and thinking that crushing inability to walk away and assert my boundaries might return.
It’s pretty easy to call time or end a conversation, there are lots of devices to do it. Be careful what you commit yourself to in the first place. When you don’t know someone well, you don’t have to explain yourself. I arranged my date in a way that allows me to have just one coffee and leave gracefully, or spend a whole evening, and am keeping contact very minimal before it. There will always be some awkward or even upsetting situations, and people going out of line, but it never has to be distressing once we understand our boundaries.
It’s about trusting ourselves, as others have said on this thread. It’s changing the story we tell ourselves. When that voice tells you it will all go wrong and this potential date will end up making big demands on you, we have to recognise now that we’re not that person anymore, who can allow someone to have so much power. You’ll keep it in check.
Then the only way to get that date, or just get out of isolation, is to go through some discomfort and not expect too much. If it turns out to be a rubbish date/event/night out, you get home, breathe a big sigh of relief, and feel good to have chipped into that fear, and sometimes you have a great time. Maybe build up your social life before dating, if you still haven’t got divorced.
Another thing I want to say about your post is what you say about ‘prospects for women my age’. There are men out there of all ages who want love and companionship, just like women do. I think we can all get caught up on the problem of being in our age group, and sometimes it’s a distraction from our own inactivity.
As I heard from Natalie, ‘the only limits are those we put on ourselves’. Hugs to you.
Thank you so much, Happy B!
I really appreciate that quote, as there are certain situations, such as performing, where I am highly trained to “face that fire and walk right through it”, but now I understand that I need to apply that training to situations where I have to deal with people. That’s it: when I have to respond to other people’s reactions I am not expecting, it totally stresses me out and makes me very uncomfortable. I have always been terrible with being put on the spot and beyond being an extreme introvert, I have recently begun to suspect I may well be somewhere on the autism spectrum with my craptastic “people skills”.
I cannot believe the situations I have allowed myself to get trapped in where I experienced, as you so aptly put it, “that crushing inability to walk away and assert my boundaries”. Since discovering BR last March I have begun building boundaries 🙂 I also recently found Nat’s posts about making and committing to decisions and how to develop our own judgment and learn to trust ourselves. Once I get through the divorce, I plan to begin by reaching out to old friends and re-learn how to interact with people and make and keep commitments without freaking out and backing out at the last minute.
Vry best,
Brenda
I just cancelled the date. In the time since we arranged it, he was texting me most days and telling me what he was doing, innocent stuff but just oversharing. I would reply much later, without giving info, and with hints, like ‘have a nice weekend’ (er.. don’t talk to me over the weekend) and yesterday, ‘see you on Thurs’ (again, nothing to say before then!). It also rung alarm bells earlier when I called to arrange the date, and he gave me a detailed run-down of what he was doing the next day, including talking about his daughter, who’s not much younger than me.
So the one I got this evening with all his news was the last straw, it was just too much to bear going through the discomfort all day tomorrow. I would almost certainly be going to meet him just to say I wasn’t interested, he would have to work miracles to change that, and that’s pretty hopeless for a first date! The different politics, the age gap, not necessarily dealbreakers, but all other things considered, I feel like I can do better.
I texted him to say he seemed lovely and talented, but I was uncomfortable with this level of sharing and maybe wasn’t ready for dating. He sent a sweet reply saying he was sorry to put pressure on me, would stop, and good luck.
I’m sure he’s a nice guy, and I have a tinge of regret, but he’s just not for me.
I know I have to leave my comfort zone, but had he taken the hint and just met at our arranged time, I would cope with a normal level of anxiety, this was just too much.
I hope this experience brings me closer to being available and dating, I feel like I’ve known and asserted my boundaries, though part of me thinks I might be a doomed EUW.
Wow, HappyB.
Why do I feel that if this guy’s looks were giving you butterflies in the stomach, you would’ve kept the date.
Funny, in reading how he was contacting you, trying to show he was an interesting fellow, and my seeing your obvious disinterest – it paralleled the women who write to BR saying similar things and being upset that the guy is totally uninterested. And ladies, here you have it: the guy is definitely thinking “I feel like I can do better”.
In the newspaper computer-dating days I went on many first dates that did not turn into second dates. I did get to go to a lot of new restaurants, and one of those became a favorite of mine. I saw a lot of movies – some are still among my favorites. So, dating may not lead to romance, but could lead to other enjoyable discoveries.
Your potential date sounds like he is just a lonely guy who was excited about having some companionship for one evening.
But if you weren’t feelin’ him, you did the right thing.
Hey Happy, Well, at least you got that far through the process and ended up having to assert your boundaries and opt out instead of letting yourself get stuck in a distressing situation that consumed your time. It is very helpful to me to see clear, specific examples of other people’s experiences and how they handle uncomfortable situations and set limits. Thank you so much!
And you don’t sound “doomed EUM” to me. What you described sounds like one of those pop quizzes we get when we’re growing to test what we’ve learned. I just had one of my own last Friday. I’ll bet the next one for you turns into something good 🙂
“I hope this experience brings me closer to being available and dating, I feel like I’ve known and asserted my boundaries, though part of me thinks I might be a doomed EUW.”
Happy b,
You did know and assert your boundaries over this. As far as I can see you were emotionally available to yourself throughout the entire experience. Emotional availability is from one angle a mindset coupled with appropriate actions. I feel like those unsolicited photo sends were the first amber flags for you here, and then what you describe above were the halt – red flags. Don’t second guess yourself…you have used your intuition, values and boundaries to live – you made a decision and you acted on it. Choices, decisions and actions together constitute living. To decide and to act makes us vulnerable to our own and others’ (if the act affects or the potential to affect another) feelings and reactions. It can feel ‘risky’ to act but when the action is taken as a result of valuing ourselves and asserting our boundaries it is the EA thing to do.
@ Elgie R, yes that’s true and close to the bone for me, to think of times when I’ve been in his position, maybe even with the ambiguous guy I was trying to get over (though he encouraged me).
It’s true this man gave me no butterflies, handsome but I found our talk on the train uninteresting at the time, and was forcing myself into this date just to try and get over my fear. He seemed to meet my core values of being honest, stable, courageous, respectful and potentially loving, and to have something he was passionate about (another of my ‘tickboxes’), but then in when it came to the detail, older, not very educated, passionate about things I’m ambivalent to and even dislike (not talking about hobbies here, but main interests). I just wasn’t interested, and I hadn’t promised or owed him interest.
I did not see how it could turn into a relationship, and I must admit I was toying with the idea of being casual with him. I expected he’d make a good lover, but of course that would have made a messy situation and been a sad waste of time. That might well have happened with ‘old me’, but now I want to be available for someone right instead of unavailable for someone wrong.
@Brenda K, I’m pleased to hear it! And yes, time is a factor here too. A friend thought I should have gone anyway, maybe I should have gone to the original ‘what harm could it do’ thought. But for me what really stops it is that we couldn’t conceivably be friends either, too little in common. It was one big exit plan that would have just got harder with more contact.
It is also about knowing our boundaries, what is and isn’t an acceptable level of discomfort. I can say pretty confidently that dates, job interviews, big nights out etc. that I’ve felt like that about and pushed myself into, have never turned around into something amazing, and in those cases I haven’t been thankful for the experience. I can trust myself to distinguish between the anxiety that comes with the uncertain territory, and the knowledge that it’s just not right. So this isn’t entirely a waste of time. I trust myself better.
Lizzp, your comments on this little journey have been gold, thank you!
Thank you once again Allison and Noquay for responding! You are very appreciated. And Allison i do understand what you are saying. However, the one part i dont agree with is cutting contact for the baby momma. Again i was never the other woman. When i met him she was his ex living with another man. So she came back in the picture later down the road while i was already with him. So if anything she was the other woman you happened to get pregnant. So my cutting contact again would be for me not her.
But the moral of the story is you are absolutely correct about him and his behavior. I am not defending or denying that at all. And i thank you for pointing out things i can do to rid him from my life. And i will apply these steps that you mentioned to my situation. I am aware that he is no good for anybody at this time not even her. And yes he is with her now. But him and i arent together as we were before, but yes he will still sleep with me. So i am cutting contact because if this continues then i will officially become knowingly the other woman.
Noquay… Im sorry that you have to see your ex so often and i know that must be hard on you. But you sound like a very strong woman and im sure you will be ok. I hope you find a new job soon instead of having to see him so often. Gosh i know thats hard.
Hi Victory,
I was referring to your being intimate with him today.
Remember, this was never a loving, mutually respectful relationship, but one that was solely for his benefit. Perhaps, if you made out a list of the pros and cons, things would become more clear.
Noquay… You mentioned that you were married, so i am assuming that ended. I know that had to be just as hard for you been that you were married and not just in a relationship. I have seen alot of comments of women on here that were previously married. So my question is to you and all women who were married. How did you process that? How did you heal? I know it takes time, but how did you remove the thoughts and good memories out your head?
I am asking this because when you marry someone and later seperate i know that has to be one of the hardest things to go through. And if someone can make it through that. Then i believe you can make it through anything.
Victory
Yep, I had a wonderful 12 year marriage to an awesome guy. Older,retired Dean who bailed outta academia to be with me,an incredible social and environmental activist. I still cherish the good times we had, all we did together, our incredible intellectual and emotional connection. The difficulty was the why of the breakup and the aftermath. I had to leave,my life was threatened due to my research and I was being starved out of my University; had to go elsewhere to get a job. The first time my car was tampered with, my ex was driving and could’ve been killed. It is one thing to stand up to these kind of threats yourself, another when innocent parties can also be harmed. When things ended, I was living in a two room cabin without plumbing, barely scraping by (some western cities have incredibly high costs of living), and had been just abandoned by a friend. I was nearly suicidal, guilt ridden. Shortly after ex found another two years later, I was diagnosed with breast cancer and so went thru the experience totally alone. Sounds like a really crappy soap opera, eh? Ex and I remain close and talk regularly. When I moved here, I thought I could truly get a second chance, save for retirement, be married again. Nope,been pretty much alone since. Ex, has been able to move on three times since. I don’t begrudge him happiness, not at all, I just wish some would’ve come my way too. Actually by now I feel I deserve happiness but realize that’s both illogical and entitled. Part of my inability to settle, accept someone that doesn’t work for me is that I know what a great rship looks like. When you’ve had the best, tis hard to settle for much, much, less. Lost the last of family last summer. Then the AC; its damned hard to have to deal with him at work, will mention this in Nats next article. Accepting his advances was entirely my own damned fault, he is incredibly good looking, we were in many ways very well suited as to values (except honesty)in a place with few/no remotely acceptable options. If I had, none of that would’ve happened. Loneliness, a sense of disconnection, makes us do stupid things. I am in my 50’s and academic jobs in my field are rare. Selling the house here for enough, not being saddled with huge debts at a time I should retire will be a challenge; the housing market here never recovered. I ironically wonder why it is me who may wind up in poverty because of the disrespectful actions of another. Still, I apply for jobs as a means of self-empowerment instead of mindlessly accepting the status quo. This site has been a godsend to help me see red flags I missed. Although building a healthy rship or accepting aloneness for good are low probability scenarios, I’ve become very good at recognizing trouble and act accordingly. To not take fate lying down, I focus on self empowering stuff with tangible results. I taught myself home repair skills, turned my acreage here into a mini farm, built my own outbuildings, grow much of my own food in a region allegedly unsuitable for agriculture, cut my own firewood, and wander alone in the mountains for hours. I do everything possible to meet like minded folk. I can say that although things are not as I would like, that I am often sad, depressed, angry, I have done everything I can to change things. Yep, bad stuff has happened but there was learning at every step. After the AC debacle, I realized how burned out I was in my career and changed my program areas; I learned that (ironically) any sort of ambiguity is a signal to run and that has helped me recognize/avoid a good many problem children since. Loneliness and trying to cope showed me I had hidden talents. The death of my dad gave me a glimpse of what my future life might look like. Being treated with injustice during my research years made me both question that area of academia and to try and treat others justly. Bad stuff happens to everyone, the point is to learn from it. You seem as though you are doing some learning now.
Noquay
Thank you for sharing your story with me. Although your story seems a bit sad and im sorry you had to go through all of that, it inspires me to discover the hidden talents i have inside of me.
At least you were able to experience a real loving relationship, that i taught you what you should expect in your next man coming. Yes you have been through alot, but they were lessons to be learned.
It is also good that you and your ex hubby still have a good friendship.I just wonder if you too could have gave it a second chance. It seems as if you were good for eachother. Whatever the situation may be im sure the right man will find you and you will be married again.
I am in my late 30’s and i have four children from a previous relationship. I have learned that during this past three years with the ass clown that i took the focus of of myself and my children and my whole being was absorbed in him, Big Mistake.
So what i have learned is i need to refocus and put my energy back into the lives of my children and I. So yes i am learning. Im learning to focus on our happiness. Learning what i do want in a man. And most of all learning to move above and beyond the crumbs that i was accepting. Thank you again Noquay for the time you spent responding to me.
Thanks Vic
Problem is, my ex is in a rship with another and even if he was available, he cannot live at this altitude. He used to come up for a week every year. Twas awesome, having the level of conversation I used to have on social justice issues, the environment. Yep, you need to focus on your kids, they are far more perceptive than we give them credit for and probably knew something was way off. I think that that is a red flag in itself, having to throw oneself away for the sake of another. When someone is a disruption rather than an asset to ones life, there’s a problem.
Noquay, I was married for 8 years to a guy, whom I appreciate only now. To answer Victory’s question if it was hard to break up. It was because of the habit and security but not so much because I had been out of the relationship mentally and emotionally 2-3 years before the separation. We had different goals at the time. I hadn’t grown up. I was extremely EU (which I understand only now), wanted to try new things, and didn’t want to be tied to anything. Wanted to see if the grass is greener (obviously it’s brown). While he was only 6 years older than me, but he wanted family and kids and a house, all of those EA things that I didn’t want at the time. I do have a daughter with him, so I was not alone when I left the marriage. Only about 5 years after the breakup and even more so 3 years later now (8 years total being officially single) I realize that I was an asshole and hurt him so much and what mistake I made by letting this guy go. By not appreciating him and valuing him and his love for me.
He is remarried now and has been for 5 years now and they are happy and have a child together. I am happy for him. Only now do I feel the pain of the breakup. Sometimes it doesn’t come immediately because I was too EU to recognize it back then. I was confident I had made the right decision. I have been grieving a lot of losses this year: parents, ex-husband, some friends, and the last EU epiphany relationship, and most importantly the EU ME – amazingly although it feels good to let you in the past go it feels sad too on some levels. Like you are shedding your old skin and it hurts although feels good. It has been a transforming year for me, to say the least.
Noquay, on another but related subject: I read your posts a lot and notice (if I am not misunderstanding) that you live in the rural area and are a professor. Have you ever considered moving to an urban area with a high concentration of academia? This perhaps could be a change in your life both professionally and personally as far as exposing yourself to new people.
Sofia
Who I am at my core is an enviro activist, farmer, woodswoman. A weird mix of cultured and highly self reliant. I lived in an inner city ghetto till I was 10; hated it. I’ve spent time in major cities and I literally have to leave and be in complete silence, no radio, music, cars, for days afterwards. I do have job apps in smaller cities with educated populations with wooded older areas where I could live part week and be in woods the rest of the time. Problem is, I am aging out of the job market. Hiring committees want younger folks with grants, publication records, who will stick around for decades. Been on many a hiring committee myself. I have some 40 hens, and 8 other special needs, rescue pets that no one would take care of here. I saw what my life could look like if I could get enough to pay off my home here and a bit more. Get an apartment or small house in the old section of the lakeside town where my dad died. The old mansions have been divided up and are bright, airy, lots of windows and solidly built so you do not hear one another’s TV sets or worse. Big old trees, walking paths, the big lake right there. A larger uni, a hospital, farmers market, a folk fest, running races and a running club. Though I was in horrid shape after the dying/death of my dad, I was asked for a date immediately. I have friends there, who are also my neighbors by my farm there. We talked nature writing for hours. They’re a tad older and I made myself useful by doing all the heavy lifting, chores, etc. Haven’t heard about the job there yet, know it will be a drastic pay cut, my retirement was collateral for the home loan here, and I need cataract surgery within a few years. Am within 5 years of retirement and am covering all bases; applying for jobs in my field, working on up-classing my home as it would be more of a vacation home for a potential buyer, a damned hard job for one smallish female with no help, and at least half-a$$edly looking on line in case I am stuck here. Getting exhausting.
Hey Noquay,
Just chiming in to help brainstorm for possible solutions here. In addition to uncommon strength of character and many other admirable qualities, it sounds like you have a wealth of skills and experience and interests that could potentially be leveraged in various ways outside the academia box, no? Could you perhaps get some work as a political consultant or analyst with your research background and various other experience and areas of interest? That could likely be done remotely for supplemental income and contacts to give you some mobility, and I would expect your age and depth of experience to be an asset in that field instead of a barrier to entry.
You also mentioned in another thread that you do high end woodworking. I have no idea what part of the country you are in, but at least here in L.A. and most likely other urban areas, there is a burgeoning market for nice, handcrafted small apartment/condo-friendly cat furniture. I am working on designing/building some of my own since I can’t afford the nice ready-made things, but my woodworking skills are crap at best. You mentioned a farmers’ market and folk festival in the area you discuss above, so that could be a (somewhat) local sales point given the logistics and cost of shipping?
You also have mentioned in other posts that you are of Native American heritage. I don’t which tribe, but I do know/ am personally acquainted with/ have collaborated with a Native American woman/member of the Cherokee Nation approximately your age who is a well-known musician in the prog rock genre and has a high profile job in I think something to do with heritage/record keeping with her tribe. She is having acute health issues now, but if there is any potential intersection of interests, I’d be happy to put you in touch with her once her health has stabilised if you like.
Very best to you,
Brenda K
Thanks Brenda
I am Shawnee plus one unknown tribe. I am an environmental scientist by training and teach in four fields. I am still in the learning stages of woodworking but learn pretty quickly, according to my teacher. I too thought of living on my place back home, which has a large garage for a woodshop, moving my farm business there, maybe doing enough adjunct teaching to pay the bills, and drive to the artsier small city to socialize, date, etc. The only thing holding me back is the 200+k debt on the house here.
Wow. That is a LARGE pile of red zeroes 🙁 Very best wishes in liquidating it, and if I happen upon anything that might be helpful, I’ll send it your way!
You are a very strong woman, Noquay. I have respect and admiration for you. It feels like you are on the right track with your values what you need from life. There are temporary difficulties, but I trust that they will be resolved. Perhaps a temporary, although so prolong dark spell, but I feel it will be resolved soon. It is great you find yourself where you are comfortable. Not a big city but the rural area you are in. So many people are stuck in the places they hate but afraid to change anything. It’s important to follow your gut and be where you want to be.
I read your posts. Your wisdom is healing.
Allison, Elgie, Rosie – thank you for weighing in. So last night, I open my FB and the following message was there (I have unfriended this guy, not blocked him):
“Hi Magnolia. Sorry I haven’t been in touch. Had to do some more traveling, had some deadlines, and started a new job. I’ve also been thinking, and I think maybe you were right initially that we should keep things unromantic. Please don’t think I haven’t a great time with you. I really have. I’ve actually enjoyed it very much. It’s been a pleasant surprise, and great getting to know again and seeing how you’ve changed. (And, to be honest, the not having sex has kind of been as hot as actually having sex.) But talking to you, it’s obvious we want different things. You said you’re not looking for something casual, and I know you think a lot of time has passed, and I don’t want to waste your time now, because I’m not going to be the person to share the life with you that you want to have. I suspect you feel the same way, so hopefully we can still be friendly. I’d like that.”
This is basically the first communication beyond a few meaningless texts that he has extended in three weeks, since we hung out overnight.
I’ve been journalling about my feelings about it. I AM trying to give myself a break given all I’ve been through and considering that I’ve handled this situation well, when all is said and done. I don’t plan to respond. But one thing that has come up in my journal is that I feel so *grateful* for this note because it’s like he has finally been honest, and I actually can’t remember the last time someone was honest with me. The thing that makes me cry is imagining him actually taking the time to write this and it feels like more than any guy I’ve dated has done, in terms of emotional honesty (even though there is still a lot to be desired here).
I invite any kind of response; I’m not around girlfriends that I am actively processing this with, so any kind of support or reaction to what you see here will be welcome. I am doing okay but just really want to talk about it.
Magnolia. You are writing my life here. Oh…so many times…I am so wanting to be loved in return….I am so ready to give…and then I find out that the man is not in the least interested in the same level of giving.
And then I paint him as a “caring soul” when he rejects me…just like you are doing here.
No, I don’t think he’s been an AC to you, yet. And on one level, I do think it was good that early on he has spelled out that he is clearly NOT on the same emotional page as you. But he did not do the spelling out of what he offers because he is such a saint of a good guy…making you think that you should reconsider your stance. He spelled it out because YOU had enough sense-of-self to say UPFRONT that casual is not for you! YOU are the hero here. And I am not just saying that to build you up. If you were wrong I would tell you. Matter-of-fact I AM telling you – you ARE wrong to think he is being a gentleman.
How many times did ACMM say to a woman – “I am not the man for you”. It makes him think he’s being a “good guy” – but he’s not. He is being opportunistic, taking the sex, and clearly stating he will not give you anything in return but his lame-ass sex. If you allow it, he’ll roll on with his program. But if you ask for anything more –caring, kissing, interest in your life – hey, he’s got the Teflon card because he told you “I am not the man for you”.
So…no…this guy is no prince. Stop building up his character in your eyes. He’s playing the Teflon card. If you accept his sex and then get hurt because sex is ALL he is offering, his viewpoint is “ that’s on you”.
Yeah…I am so sick of being alone too. But I am more sick of being used for sex. I want MUTUAL. And I will not get mutual unless I demand mutual upfront, and toss out those who do not offer it. That’s what you are doing – you are demanding mutual. And it is the right thing to do for you.
Toss him. Don’t respond.
Oh…BTW…I read those links too. Scary…that user mentality.
Magnolia… I think only you know how nice and straightforward he was before. As long as this email is not another AC move, I think you can reply very briefly, saying thanks for the email it was nice hanging out with you too. You dont have to contact him for any friend type dinners or anything and if he contacts you, you can decline (Again, i dont know who this fellow is if you wrote about him before on BR). I think maybe it is honest to say this right up front, I have had it said to me but it came months too late and was said in a very dismissive way, and more like oh i see nothing in our future (as if I did, as if I was reading way too much and was put in my place though most of the pursuit was his). So if this guy didn’t let things get too ambiguous and is now making things quite clear, that is a decent move. It hurts but its honest and its kind and hopefully its timely. I guess thats the move you would like to make if you were in that position.
Magnolia- Wow! The guy grew some balls and was honest with you. Awesome! 🙂 It’s healing, isn’t it? I remember when I got the apology from the guy who brought me here. Like you, I was grateful. When I saw him again, he treated me very well, like how somebody is supposed to treat somebody he claims to like and, yes, I was grateful.
I bring in this experience because I wonder how you feel about your gratitude? What I mean is, are you ok with feeling grateful or does your gratitude leave you feeling sad that you’re feeling grateful for what should be standard behavior?
Heput a lot of thought into what he wrote.
He apologizes only for getting back to you late, and explains why he did get back to you late. I see no other apology.
He takes into account your feelings.
He ends with the friend card–he doesn’t want to be the bad guy.
More than anything, he states facts. Even as to what happened between you. Why did he choose to put that into writing? He could have left it alone. He does compliment you. Maybe he writes his thoughts on the physical between you because he never told you them before–and he wants to compliment you, too.
He leaves the door open for you–IF you go back for more of the “physical”, it’s all on you…AND he has a written record of how he considered your feelings.
Write back: “You take care.” Don’t add his name. And that’s it.
Oh Magnolia. I love your posts, and this is breaking my heart.
I think that what I would do in your situation would be not to reply AT ALL. It’s best to walk away from this one and start again, and that starts with right now = silence. You don’t have to reply at all, not even to say ‘yep, bye now’.
Process away, but do it in your journal and here. If you leave the door open to communicate him, you’ll process with him, and that way madness lies …
We all screw up from time to time; it’s what makes us human. Learn and grow, learn and grow.
(I know it’s cheesy, but sometimes singing that Alanis Morissette song ‘Thank U’ is helpful as well.)
Thanks Eth. (And thx to each of you who weighed in, I read your posts over and over, as much to feel what I resonated with as to feel supported by your care.) I have written a novella in my journal but haven’t said beep to him since I stopped waiting for him to call – what I am saying, text, I was waiting for him to effing text! – and quietly unfriended.
Agreed that it’s better that she leaves it the way she has left it, and that it’s better that she not respond at all. But if Magnolia were to respond, the “take care” (to me) comes off the right way, and allows Magnolia to have the last word (if this is to be valued).
These profs (especially the lit ones) are arrogant p.o.s.
Don’t take any of this personally. Men out there–e.u. or not–don’t know their heads from their *ss*s nowadays. This is coming from a married woman.
I just have to learn to handle e.u.-ness, period. Everyone around me is. Plus, the more people become cocooned due to the internet and technology (and just being so busy trying to survive), being e.u. is getting more and more common all the time.
Narcissism is on the rise. People don’t live in a vacuum.
None of this is by accident.
And I think this guys is a wee bit narc. Not full-blown.
No loss to you. Anyone would be lucky to have you.
My (hard ass) advice to you: ACT LIKE IT.
Act As If.
Do you come from a line of criminals? Mass murderers? Psychopaths? Sociopaths?
What in the world do you have to be ashamed of?
You have done the best with what God and fate and the world handed to you.
Act like you are the shite.
Because you are.
Then, more and more every day, you will be treated like you are.
I am so sick of the b.s. that men hand to us. All of us.
And they do it to the best of us.
Even the ones with super-high self-esteem.
Don’t let them knock you down.
Go rent “The Verdict.” You need a film like that right now.
Don’t lose your spirit. The one that got you where you are now.
THAT would be sad.
I know. I let it happen to me. It won’t happen again.
My ex was rather ambiguous from the outset. I remember after we were first intimate, about three weeks in and I told him that I wasn’t the type to have multiple people that I was being intimate with…therefore should we agree that we were going to be monogamous in our sexual encounters? He looked shocked and said maybe? I asked if he wanted to see other people and he said, ‘maybe, I don’t know’? I should have cut and run then. It continued down the line. We became boyfriend and girlfriend after five months and only because I brought it up and stated my case, so to speak. Then he told me he loved me after about seven months together. That was a surprise to say the least. But the entire relationship he seemed to be in a boat with one foot out dragging us down and off course. He always seemed confused and,’ I don’t know what I want’, was one of his favorite stock responses. I finally made the realization that I would never feel secure in this ambivalent relationship where I felt he was metaphorically and maybe literally always looking in the other yard where the grass might be greener. I never heard from him again after our last conversation. So he doesn’t fit the profile in terms of sneaking back into my life, but I was also pretty sure he had found a new love interest at his new job..so he had his immediate backup. Ambiguity does not a good relationship make. Trust me.
pickles – my ex said a lot that he didn’t know what he wanted either….it never made me feel good. I always doubted his feelings. he pursued me physically at first and it wasn’t something I wanted….but little by little he broke down my boundaries. Eventually we did date seriously for seven months after we both considered each other our best friends etc, but there was a lot of ambiguity on his side. I hated when he would say he didn’t know what he wanted….but then would talk about moving in with me. He just didn’t take things as serious, like moving in with someone, as I did. He came and stayed with me for a few weeks just for fun and when I asked him if he was excited his response was I’m indifferent. I’m good living where ever. Talk about popping my balloon.
Hey Allison… Yes writing a list is a great idea. And again i appreciate your valued input regarding my situation.
Here is the good news, IM DONE! Im done accepting this type of behavior. He lied, cheated, created a whole family while with me. So that is enough for me. I know i deserve better than this. And now that i reflect on it, i do know i was holding on in hopes that he will change. Also, because i would miss his presence and afraid of losing just that, his presence.
I am done letting any guy screw me over.This is actually the first time that i have invested so much in a man, and i have learned my lesson. Im am no longer going to be sad about this, and its time for me to bury this and leave it alone.
It has taken alot to get to this point. But i will not continue to look or be treated as a fool. I will not look at this as a loss of a love one. As see it now as a lesson learned. In a way this has help me realize what I DONT WANT. And if anything i am greatful to him for helping me figure that out.
Victory,
Glad to hear it!!!
I learned much from the guy that brought me here: knew I needed to make many changes in my life.
Pleas do take a long break, read the site and look into Natalie’s books. You may also consider some counseling, to understand why you started up with this guy to begin with.
Mags,
I too, think it was very nice. You’re right, few would take the time.
Honestly, he sounds like a decent guy. I would consider a friendship if you have no feelings. 🙂
I thought I would add my experience — for the past few months, I have been in an ambiguous relationship (its like AA! My name is Suki and I’m in Ambiguities Anonymous). There was pursuing by me as a first step, a reaching out, but he didn’t reciprocate. So I backed off. After that all the pursuit has been him, as has been all the pulling back, a constant hot and cold. Eventually he made a real move, only to pull back immediately, fear, not ready for a relationship, doesnt see a long term future, not really sure what he wants, afraid etc., just short of phone anxiety really.
Recently we hooked up again, and it recharged the ambiguity – thats what interesting about these relationships, every step forward is really a step further into ambiguity. Because if you aren’t having a relationship, every relationship-type step is a step into ambiguity. So earlier we were ambiguous friends, then ambiguous daters, back to ambiguous friends, and now perhaps ambiguous friends that have ambiguously timed nights together? Which is I think so much worse – if you cannot even have expectations about no strings fun times then that is the definition of emptiness. Because knowing how he feels about me and relationships I really cannot have any more intimacy with him, and I had the conversation about this which made me realize that with all that he has told me its strange that I would even consider him for any type of relationship. He is not only not interested in me, but continues to pursue me while telling me he’s not interested in relationships per se, and in me, etc. And we’re in the same social circle so full NC is not possible, though I can definitely keep it to seeing him only around other people. I dont need advice – its clear there is no there there, and I know I’m wasting my time and my emotions. The thing is this started out as me being available and wanting a relationship, and has ended up with me being unavailable and settling for nothingness. So its not necessarily that we are EU but sometimes if you pick an EUM and dont know how to back out, you’re in an EU relationship as your expectations are managed down. [not to say that there aren’t EU tendencies in me, but overall I do not enter relationships with an intent to dither around]. I agree with this post – its hard to let yourself feel the loss if you stick around. I dont know the solution, or rather I’m not ready to do what I know needs to be done, for now I am just playing passiveness, doing nothing, but I am suffering for it.
Hi Suki, I am a recovering AA 🙂 what strikes me here is the ambiguity in your post – not only that he is being ambiguous with you, but that you are too. You seem to have an acceptance right now that you’re in it, you’re ‘settling’ for it, “for now I am just playing passiveness” whilst also seeing it for what it is, “I really cannot have any more intimacy with him”.
When you say “earlier we were ambiguous friends, then ambiguous daters, back to ambiguous friends”, what this brings up for me if that these ‘things’ are sub-friendship, sub-dating, they slip through the net of the protocol of any kind of relationship. You have the emotional intensity, but then you never know if your messages will get a response, if you’re ‘allowed’ to contact them at certain times, you know that you can’t call the shots and have to wait around for them. I get better consistency and consideration from colleagues, never mind friends. Decent people have a sense of the implications of getting close to you physically and emotionally and won’t do it unless they want the same, these people are not decent.
Where you say, ‘its hard to let yourself feel the loss if you stick around’ – I hope I’m not taking this out of context, but I think sticking around, you do feel loss 90% of the time, you know what you’re lacking. Having got out of a few ‘whachamacallits’, I felt like I’d gained a huge amount once I passed that decisive moment and quit. I think we do a lot, if not most, of the grieving within it, not outside it.
happy b, yes you are right, i am ambivalent as well (though i wasn’t to start out with while he was ambivalent from the get go), and he has picked up on that, and he knows that now he can get what he needs from this relationship without any consequences at all. And i totally agree – these situations are awful because its not clear what any expectations are, even how you contact each other. Overall, I dont contact him at all almost because of early moments here he was quite tacky and inconsistent with me, so I dont really trust my feelings with him, I never invite him to any one on one thing, but I am available to him. He often makes plans and then fails to follow through, doesnt tell me when he’s traveling, and there are no expectations – its not what I expect even from colleagues or friends. I had a conversation with a friend last night and she pointed out that the things he’s been saying are just way too ambivalent but also are mean.
I am not ready for the breakup conversation because frankly there is nothing to break up from. I want to leave a little door open so I can be available on my own terms, and not on his – thats the solution I have come up with in the last day, that I still need him, we’re still going to be thrown together but since I dont contact him anyway, if I put the constraint on myself that its only on my terms, it will be the equivalent of abstinence.
[I know this sounds like intense rationalization, I’m just trying to pick my way through this, and I’m much happier with this conclusion where I have some power and keep his mean words resounding in my head… I’m glad he said them, its a motivation for abstinence like no other. And I know that I will soon move on, this rationalization is to help me through it].
Suki, I’ve really liked your comments over time (as long as there isn’t another Suki!) and I think you’re fabulous, but what I’m reading here is insanity!
You don’t have any power or control in this. What I find the least rational is:
‘I am not ready for the breakup conversation because frankly there is nothing to break up from. I want to leave a little door open so I can be available on my own terms, and not on his – thats the solution I have come up with in the last day, that I still need him, we’re still going to be thrown together but since I dont contact him anyway, if I put the constraint on myself that its only on my terms, it will be the equivalent of abstinence.’
First off, breaking up isn’t about the conversation but about your own decisiveness. How or whether you tell him is secondary, it depends entirely on you.
Second, how are you available on your own terms? It’s clear that this is self-deception. You don’t contact him because he doesn’t allow you to, not because of any choice or ‘abstinence’.
To me, it’s like smoking 20 cigarettes a day, then saying you’re in control and not a smoker because between cigarettes you’re not smoking. Yet during those cigarette-free hours, you’re actually missing your fix and thinking of the next one, so not in control at all.
Not the best analogy, I just don’t think your approach is going to work, to put it politely 😉
happy b … Its not that he doesnt allow me to contact him, I didn’t really see it in that light, though perhaps you are right. I agree there is some self-deception involved – I think this path is just my way of talking myself into moving on from him. By saying even if only in my head that I am not available to him on his terms which is all we’ve had, and since I’m unlikely to contact him on my terms = thats a way to move on.
I think the cigarette analogy isn’t right – unless its smoking two cigarettes a month and not really thinking of smoking in the middle 🙂 for now thinking this way is making me calmer and able to see it for what it is (emptiness and silliness). I think most likely there will be no conversation on this so the break up will be assumed.
Suki, not that he directly doesn’t allow you, more that you’re discouraged because your expectations have been managed down. Ok so if that’s the better analogy, you have more strength and self control than many others. But still not a great habit, and like you said, this is a lot of rationalisation, how will this approach translate in your actions?
decent people have a sense of the implications of getting close to you physically and emotionally and won’t do it unless they want the same, these people are not decent.
Well said.
Magnolia,
I am glad that you are thinking of not responding. Please follow that instinct. I think he is still a jerk in that message; it is ALL about HIM and he is just testing to see whether you “might” change your mind regarding the casual thing. I mean how many times do you have to spell it out. People who respect you don’t need another reminder that this is the case. They accept and move on. He is keeping you busy with his crummy message, literally throwing you some crumbs with his “honesty”. Do we need to be SO thankful that someone can repeat the facts and this thing about how he enjoyed spending time with you…just buttering you up. Do not fall for it. See it for what it is: unhealthy behavior, you are just too starved my dear- just FLUSH, really block him from FB. There was a reason you unfriended him, follow that route; don’t give up- you will understand soon! Hugs
I don’t agree!
They went out a few times and there wasn’t a connection.
To me, it sounds like he wants a platonic relationship. No harm there.
Let’s not lump all these guys in the jerk category.
Completely, 100%, agree.
He is acting just as he did pre-“the physical”.
Oh dear! I’m going to need you ladies :(…I’m in this situation at the moment and I’m finding it hard to let go, He’s admitted to being an asshole and always says I deserve better and as soon as i walk away and tell him that we can’t keep doing this, he wants to be friends yet never acts like a friend. He admitted to really liking me and used the long distance between as an excuse as to why it wouldn’t work out. Deep down I know that he’s not good for me, because when we argue I honestly feel so sick in my stomach and it just reminds of my last relationship and I don’t wish to go down that road again. He was down recently and we agreed to meet up as friends and then he kissed me! and I asked him why he did that and pretended not to lead me on and I told him that I don’t have the energy or time to go through this again and I’d appreciate it if he effed off and left me alone, so he ignored me and then would message later on again. Whats wrong with me!Someone please smack some sense into me. Before his assclown tendencies came out, he treated me really well(and I’ve never been treated that way before) and we both really wanted the relationship but he’s insecure and said that he doubts himself and if it’ll work since we don’t live in the same city. I know it’s never going to work and we’ll continue arguing about the same stuff. I just want to let go and feel ok, but I’m finding it hard. I’m being stupid I know.
Hanna, he’s not your lover. He’s not your friend. You actually DON’T EVEN LIKE EACH OTHER VERY MUCH, to be honest …
You’ve spotted the problems already – it ‘just reminds of your last relationship’, and you don’t want to go there, so don’t.
It’s that simple. Don’t.
Don’t have the last word.
Don’t respond to any texts, messages, phone calls, letters sent by carrier pigeon, amusing YouTube videos, etc.
Don’t have any more contact with this time-waster.
Don’t hurt yourself any more.
Don’t talk about him to all your other friends.
Now the Do list:
Get through a week or two weeks of no contact, and then DO something nice for yourself as a reward for this.
DO reconnect with your other friends, without dragging him into it and poisoning your time with them.
DO start thinking about what you really want in life – not out of men, but out of your work, your hobbies, your pastimes, your future.
That’s my advice.
Unready! you’re absolutely right, I’m just hurting myself even more and wasting time and energy on this idiot!…And I need to spend more time focusing on myself and my life.. I recently started a new job and I think it’s time for me to use this opportunity to grow!… haha you’re spot on, he’ll try and get my attention using all of the above! I just need to be strong and selfish now, because it’s not ok. Friends, real friends don’t even treat one another so poorly. Thanks for your advice! 🙂
Hanna, I don’t know if it will help, but sometimes it’s just toxic. One little drop of them and things taste ordinary, life gets dull, you don’t want to do anything or can’t because they have poisoned your well-ness.
I wanted so much great stuff for my ex and I to experience, yet the reality was toxic. Like a bad fart.
NicW, you’re right, it is toxic and it doesn’t feel good even when you are with them because you’re still not getting what you really deserve. They basically feed you just enough for you not to go and eat anywhere else and it still doesn’t make us happy because we know that we’re still hungry but we value their little effort so much “it must mean something” when in actual fact it means squat!but we’re still hopeful, we hope that maybe,just maybe they’ll give us the 3 course meal we deserve but it doesn’t happen. They wear you down to below sea level!…Last night I sat in bed thinking about everything and I think I was put off by the way I dealt with everything, he’s actually nothing wonderful and yes at one point I thought he was a nice guy, but all the signs/ red flags were always there, people will show you who they are but we won’t see it because we want them to be who we want them to be.
Just to add on. One minute he wants to settle down and the next he says that he doesn’t know what he wants. He blows hot and cold, which is frustrating and he loves playing dumb knowing very well that its going to lead me on. Back in June we were serious and he even got down on his knees bought me jewellery and flowers and promised to always try and keep me happy and try his best and sad part is that I actually believed him, two weeks later he says that he has a bad feeling that this isn’t going to work because he can’t handle not seeing me because of the distance, we’d skype but this wasn’t good enough and I just felt like I was being messed around, so we called it quits and he said that he’s bad for me and we should rather be friends and he knows he makes me sad when he behaves like an asshole. We hardly spoke after that, but he’d message and then ignore me and then suddenly become flirtatious and sweet, sending mixed signals, which really annoyed me. I didn’t plan on seeing him recently and really thought that I’d just meet him as friends but that’s when he kissed me and it upset me, because he very well knew how I felt about him and its not like you can magically just turn off your feelings for someone and forget nothing ever happened(although I wish it were possible. We argued while he was here and he said that he enjoys my friendship but its hard to be friends when he’s with me because the more he spends time with me the more he likes me and he’s not sure about what he wants and doesn’t know how to respond when I get upset which is why he ignores me and behaves like a jerk (he said this)and that’s why he tries to push me away because he’s trouble. He also admitted to messing up big time in June and ruining things. Whenever shit hits the fan he becomes like this, he’s consistent at being inconsistent. It’s so messed up.
Hanna,
Good Lord!!! Why do you continue with this mess????
This dude has told you, and shown you repeatedly that there is no future, but you keep going back.
He is not your lover or friend! Girl, this is on you, as you have been shown over and over that he is incapable.
Go NC, once and for all!
You’re right Allison, I should’ve gone NC after June. It isn’t healthy and it’s going nowhere. You know the truth by the way it feels and this “whatchamacallit” had more downs than ups. I think sometimes the heart needs time to accept what the mind already knows. Thank you for telling straight, I needed to hear that. Can’t believe how stupid I was, thank goodness for BR and you ladies! I will cut contact as from this moment and move on with my life. I draw strength from you ladies and it’s going to help me. Thank you :).
Hannah, I love your story. No, I mean it. Because its like mine, and we need a sense of humor about this. I also ask my friends regularly can you please smack some sense into me! – those exact words! I need a slap, I am begging my friends to slap me 🙂
The thing is that you have let him know how much he upsets you, the drama of it all is attractive to him, and to you. I dont know why they say that women create more drama when this is the definition of drama. But theres the creator and the enabler. You’re the enabler but you’re also the creator – to get upset over a kiss, thats creating drama. Its because he’s hooked you. Someone had made a pass on me a few months ago, so unexpected and not someone I would ever consider and I laughed out loud, and then since he is a friend, I gave him a hug, but basically i was laughing because it was ludicrous. In those situations we totally know what we are doing but these EUs have hooked us.
Lousy old fellow is giving you the run around – tell him to get in touch when he’s matured, and then make him stick to that – as in, if he comes back throw him into the dating pool at the first harkening back to the old patterns. BR lovely ladies, this is a wonderful comments section always and this week in particular as I go through my ambiguous situation. It is unacceptable all this dithering. But really what we need to understand is the hook – we are not happy but we are hooked on the drama. No more hooks. I’m done, I’m feeling more and more energy from all these stories, there is nothing unique about my situation which I knew already. Open a window, stick your head out, and force yourself to laugh out loud, laugh it out the situation you have created and which you are blaming on that other person. Forgive yourself for your weaknesses, we are all human, we crave connection but are looking in the wrong places. If you can take the connection and not get hurt, and not become EU yourself, then pursue it – but we are all here because that type of connection is ultimately demeaning to us.
Suki, lol you’re right, our situation isn’t very unique and it’s true we were hooked on the drama and hope that they would combust into the guys we deserve, but I have officially had enough. They’re selfish and he’s already taken up too much of my year with all this drama, which I’m partially to blame for since I kept going back. Its time for change and I’m not making any u-turns.Waste of time and energy! Never again, literally just face-palmed myself, what the hell was I thinking!I will have to forgive myself and make peace for allowing it to continue.thanks suki 🙂 we can do it!
Suki I really enjoyed reading that. So many ladies here need to stop beating themselves up for just wanting to be loved. Or if not loved immediately, then to be treated with kindness, respect, and a dash of thoughtful attention in the same way that any human being treats another human being they’re intimate with.
So many ladies (and gents) on here were treated with apparent kindness, respect and thoughtful attention as a ways and means for the assclown in question to Get The Goodies. We shared the Goodies and then — days, weeks, months of Goodies later — the kindness, respect and thoughtful attention vanished as if it never existed. Which is bound to make a woman wonder if it was all just a disturbing ploy (see ‘sosuave.com’ for details). Or perhaps an exchange of services — “If I give you cuddles on the sofa and return a couple texts from you each day, you pay me in Goodies” (see ‘sosuave.com’ for details). Or maybe even some kind of weird misogynistic ritual of destroy-or-be-destroyed (see ‘sosuave.com’ for details). Whatever it is, the one thing they all have in common are Red Flags.
The quintessential definition of a Red Flag is a man who says ‘I’m not interested in a relationship of any kind with you’ and then tries to get into your panties. We’re way too kind to call it dithering or ‘not knowing what he wants’. Our solid beliefs, passed down from grandmother to mother to daughter to granddaughter, that ‘men can’t express their feelings, so… (insert co-dependent reasoning here)’ only means that men are handed lifelong get-out-of-jail-free cards for their perpetually hideous behaviour. I mean, oh please. Any of you ever witness a man shouting and screaming and high-fiving and crying at the television when a game is on? A game? Played by other adult men dressed as ‘soldiers’ in a contrived ‘battlefield’ situation decorated with logos and brands under the illusion that this piece of pantomime theatre actually matters in some way? I think we all have witnessed that. And yet somewhere in the backs of our minds we think ‘men can’t express their feelings’? Yeugh. So girls. Go easy on yourselves.
As usual, Griz, I love your beautifully worded replies. Onya girl!
What Nel said 🙂
To everyone trying to be friendly with an ex-EUM…this “hope we’ll always stay friendly” business……were you ever really friendly with the particular EUM in question?
With ACMM there was a 13 year gap between “FWB round 1” and “FWB round 2”, and in that 13 years we reached out for contact three times: once when he wanted my advice on a career direction, once when I needed his expertise in a programming language, and once when Barack Obama won the first time. I remember feeling guarded during the first contact. The second contact, I felt he OWED me some help and I was truly desperate and had no other resource. The third time – incredulity ruled and I did indeed feel friendly. All but the first were contact by email.
So…when EUMs still want to be friends and continue “hanging out” – did you guys ever hang out when sex wasn’t a potential end result? ACMM had never been to my home in that 13 year span – coming to my house involved sex or at least a pressing of a reset button to have sex again.
If you aren’t everyday friends – that does not mean you are enemies. He is just someone you used to love. No need to maintain contact to “prove” you are still “friends”.
I do maintain more frequent contact with the single EUM, but that is because he plays in a band and I go to the gigs. And we are friends out of longevity and no real conflicts between us, I think. I mean, I can call him if I needed something and he could call me. He and I are similar in that we don’t trust many outside people and have a very small set of intimate people – mostly immediate family. We don’t talk every day or week or month for that matter, but we are aware of some of the goings on in each others lives. I do care about him in a friendly way and would not be hurt if he told me he was getting married. Nor would I insert myself into that relationship with the “we were friends before he even met you” nonsense.
He has been to my home many times over the years and I have been to his many times. I helped him over the summer with his newest laptop. He helped me mount a shelf. So the single EUM and I have a friendship based on concrete experiences. But he is EU and P/A and my brain hurts whenever I try to have extended conversation with him, and he is not boyfriend material for me.
My ex pulled the friendship card during the breakup. “maybe we can have a coffee in couple months?” What? He doesn’t even drink coffee. In two months he contacted (text) to see how I was but the friendship card was not extended. No word. 4 months later he checked on me again (text). No friendship card. Just ambiguous checking on you text. Wished happy bday a month later (text). I asked why you keep in touch. No response. I guess he doesn’t want to be my friend anymore:)
I didn’t see and don’t see now how I could stay friends with him. Even when I am completely over him, I don’t see how that’s possible. The fact is that he never was into my life completely or even partially. He stayed away. One foot always out. He never let me in. Kept everything artificial and secretive and the dating kind of stage relationship.
No friendship potential at all. He disrespected me. He hurt me. He betrayed and left me at the hardest moment in my life, which he was 50% responsible for. Friends are there with you regardless.
He is no friend. Great post, Elgie R.
Wow. Totally opposed responses from some of you.
I found this line in Mr. U and the FBG: “a lot of Mr Unavailables are for all intents and purposes relatively OK guys with shit relationship skills, issues with commitment, and of course, the solo mentality. These are the guys who catch you out with their selfish relationship habits because you expect more of them.”
If I try to make dude out to be a total asshole, that’s not quite true. But neither is he a prince who has been upfront. He suggested he was interested in “more than sex” to start our whole interaction. This note comes after 3 weeks of silence (with the “I was busy” excuse), so late that it’s presumptuous to assume I’m still waiting on his communication.
I guess one of the reasons we unavailable women start up with unavailable men is that when it doesn’t work out, we can blame all their faults. I find it much harder to imagine this guy as someone who is okay but who didn’t see anything further with me after we went out a few times. I just lose it and cry and cry when I think of it that way. So I will aim not to demonize, because obviously this level of emotional response suggests I’m tapping into other issues/old hurts, and shows me that I must feel like being rejected by a decent person is unbearable.
Also, refusing to demonize him reminds me that I am responsible for my choices. I know what I ignored. I can’t say I didn’t see the signs.
I just got off the phone with a business contact who brought up that he’d seen me and Mr. U together at an event and how lovely it was that we knew each other. Sigh. Of course it’s in both my and Mr. U’s interests for me to be “friendly.” If anyone asks, I guess I’ll have to say we’re … long-time colleagues.
There’s no need to respond to his note. He’s not even asking to be friends, but to be ‘friendly.’ I already tried friends with him and he kept flirting, bringing us to where we are now. A cordial hello when we run into each other next will be more than enough.
Just a side note: In the past two weeks I have actually had face-to-face interactions with the three main guys with whom I had difficult, intense involvements (including this Mr. U) after I left my long-term bf and before I left this town to move out west seven years ago. One is a cute, passive, guy from a wealthy family I used to work with, who I ran into on the street last week; another is a brilliant, intense, former bad-boy now married with kids that I saw at a conference this weekend and ended up next to at dinner. I’m “friends” with none of them, but can of course be friendly …
I choose to interpret this coincidence as more than just proof that the lit community is small and I could potentially just fall back into a rut … rather I had the chance to see these guys with much more clarity, with the perspective not just of time but with the insight I gained from years of therapy and BR (and of course all the work I had to do after the two ACs I dated out west), and the hysterectomy. They’re just dudes. Our interactions barely had a thing to do with who they are / their values and had almost everything to do with my fears that I was incurably unattractive.
I like to think that I’ve now had the chance to take stock and maybe unpack and refold some old baggage. I might have a bit more crying to do, but whatever. Time for new experiences.
“Being on a Bullshit Diet means:
Not letting your imagination run so wild that you end up living disconnected from reality in a fantasy world.
When you let your ‘story’ take hold in your head or even verbally – you know that stuff you tell yourself to legitimise your beliefs, your actions, and your self-fulfilling prophecy – follow up with ‘Is that/this actually true?’
Not just doing stuff for kicks, for the short-term thrill, for the instant results and considering the medium to long-term consequences.
Being conscious in your actions and feelings instead of just floating around or acting like you’re helpless and someone else is in control of your wheel. This causes you to do things that are not congruent with the values and desires that you profess to have.
At the core of any emotional, mental, physical, or spiritual energy you spend burning up about a relationship that is not working in the way that you want to and may be causing you to be at best, taken advantage of, and at worst abused, you must have this as your central question:
Why, if someone is behaving in this manner are you still there putting up with it or claiming that you’ll never get over them?
If it’s about a general situation:
Why, if this situation is not working for me am I still complaining instead of doing something about it?
Basically – what’s in it for you?
If you’re honest about your choices, why you do something etc, you are a hell of a lot closer to finding a solution that you can live with, whether that’s opting out, taking measures to distance and protect yourself, or doing something to improve the situation and give you your power back. Until you eliminate or minimise the BS, it’ll feel like you’re ‘helpless’ or that it’s the fault of someone else.
Take the focus off your distractions and bring it back to you.
~~~NML ~~~
Wow, this thread really brought up a lot of stuff for me. I am again wavering in my commitment to divorce my husband, both because he has been putting on his “A game” very hard since returning from five months overseas, and also because of hearing everyone’s stories about the dire prospects for women my age (48) going back on the market after many years off. Nonetheless, despite the good behaviour now and the undeniable fact that I love my husband and care very much about him, there are still intractable problems that make remaining married to him an untenable situation for me, so I must keep my eye on the ball.
Then there’s the online “relationship” thing (story about my fantasy online “other man” on another recent thread — I have as much as concurred that he is a classic EUM), and people discussing how these “relationships” don’t travel well into real life. As I read more and it sinks in more, I become more and more convinced that I chose him based on old thought/habits/patterns/beliefs about myself, and my increasing willingness to let him go is a function of the progress I am making. We “create our own reality” with our beliefs about ourselves, which is what gets reflected back to us in our actual experience. As our beliefs change, our experience changes, as do the people we attract and those we are attracted to.
Many thanks to everyone here at BR for sharing your stories and your time to help others!
P.S. I very much appreciate Ethelreda’s observation near the beginning of the comments:
“And tolerating an ambiguous situation over a long period of time is a pretty sure sign that you, personally, are emotionally unavailable.
Not just them. You. Yes, you. The one in the mirror. “
After having had experiences in the past where I’ve not been sure what a guy wants/where it was going and finding out way too late that we weren’t on the same page, with the last guy I started dating I made sure we had that conversation early on. We talked it through and he said liked me but wasn’t sure if he wanted me to be his girlfriend (very blunt, but I appreciated the honesty) an then not longer after ended things because “something was missing” (despite the fact he was attracted to me and enjoyed my company, oh and wanted to sleep with me – but he didn’t) and I kicked myself that I’d ruined it by bringing it up too soon and “scaring him” (but really, asking what someone wants isn’t/shouldn’t be scary!). I asked a lot of questions as I have major issues around rejection but he was fine with answering them. I realised it was for the best I found out sooner rather than later, and that if he was interested in me properly my asking that question wouldn’t have mattered – in this case, it just triggered things ending sooner, which was a blessing really as I didn’t have time to get too attached.
This has completely hit the nail on the head of the situation I am in!
Went on a few dates with this guy back in January and had just had some traumatic news followed by being made homeless and sofa surfing, and so at the time told him I couldnt see him anymore as my head was all over the place. He was very sweet about it but we didn’t really stay in touch other than social situations with friends. Well 2 months later I ended up in a very emotionally abusive situation with an “arseclown” as described which I then ended in September. Since then me and the original guy have spent lots of time together in social things and it just made me realise how wonderful he is as a person and what id thrown away at the time. Well months later I told him how I felt and he gave me a vague response of how he liked me too but was not looking for anything right now. Which upset me but I felt as though deep down it was because he was hurt abOut before (of which his friend had also said to me) so I decided to leave it. Then he approached me at a party, kissed me and told me he did really like me he just didn’t know what he wanted! The next day we hung out and then I didn’t hear from him. I text him a few days later to which I had the impression he was t that bothered. So I told him that if he wanted to forget it had happened and continue as friends that we could. He said he liked me but thought it was for the best. Yet again I was confused and thought I was to blame, what am I doing wrong, why doesn’t he want me! So once again I asked him what was wrong, why he wasn’t interested, and asked him if it was about the other guy, to which he shut down told me he wasn’t interested and didn’t want to talk about it anymore. The next day I deleted his number after some pretty angry texts I’d sent him drunk and have not heard a thing since. It’s been hard and upsetting because I think he is truly wonderful but he has laid it out as what it is and I have just been reluctant to accept it because of his mixed messages….actions speak louder than words right? 🙂 Love your posts so much! Wish I had found them sooner!
Sorry for the essay just feel like things are clicking into place!!!! X x x x x
So why is ambiguity wrong on one side while giving to much information is too? It takes time to get to know someone and I don’t think handing over the keys to the castle in the first few months is wise, therefor some ambiguity is needed and should be allowed. I call it PLAYING IT CAREFUL
Ambiguity carries some element of deception – there is some, even if not totally conscious, intent to mislead. Ambiguous behaviour represents an emotionally unavailable and unaware person’s need to make something appear more complex or less easy to understand. There is a drive to muddle, jumble, blur, obscure, cloud, obfuscate etc.
I do not think that ambiguity is the equivalent of applying boundaries around ‘disclsure’ as a new relationship or friendship develops. However, “giving too much info” can often be the fall back/florence’s reaction to ambiguity from another.
I can testify to this as being a former EUW myself. Ambiguity is how you deal with, ” I don’t know what I want and I am afraid.” And recognizing ambiguity in the partners I used to pick. That was their thought pattern.
great observation, lizzp.
That is an astute observation indeed and gives me much food for thought, as it sounds just like my M.O.
Hello, my first time posting. I am obsessed with this amazing blog! I’ve just started NC last week. Yes, early days. I have what is probably a silly question. I have a pre-arranged date planned with the ambiguous person I am doing NC on this week. Do I politely decline when he checks in about whether I’m still coming (an art exhibition of his, so not a one on one date or anything) or do I just ignore him/ the question completely? It’s not like he has never ignored a call or text from me before! Don’t know what to do. He probably wont reach out at all, but want to be prepared if he does.
Do you WANT to go, or not?
If you want to go because you are really interested in the ART, and in the OTHER PEOPLE there, then go.
If you will spend the whole time focusing on him, don’t go. If you’re doing NC, then that should mean NC. It doesn’t work, otherwise.
The last line of your post spoke volumes. Don’t go, Jessie. He’s not worth it. Go and get yourself some real friends who share your interests and values, and have some fun for once.
Thank you so much! I dont think I was very clear in asking my question. I dont plan on going. What I’m fretting about is how to handle it when he calls/texts or emails this week asking if I am coming. Do I just erase the message and not respond or do I politely say ‘sorry I can’t make it’ and revert back to NC – I’m serious about doing NC but I also dont want to be totally rude! HELP! (silly I know) xx
Jessie, IF he texts or emails and you feel obliged to answer – just say no. And leave it at that. No excuses, no ‘sorry’s. Ignore any further questioning; the reasons why are your business, not his. If he calls let it go to voicemail and then decide on if or how you want to answer. However NC is NC. If you’ve told him you’ll ignore his contact then definitely follow that through otherwise you too are being ambiguous. If not, and only if he does contact you, you could use it as an opportunity to tell him. It is liberating. Any future attempts at contact can be ignored, guilt free x
How about the simple answer ‘No’ to the question, if it comes? And don’t apologise, and don’t explain.
Any subsequent messages can be safely ignored with zero response – which is exactly what he does to you, most of the time, isn’t it?
If he’s playing ambiguous, then he will very likely just evaporate, and you’ll be left feeling faintly disappointed that he didn’t bombard you with texts so that you could practice NC on him!
Thanks so much guys xx
Hi ladies! First time reading here and commenting…and wow, like others have noted too, it feels like this was written just for me and my situation. I can so relate to everyone’s story and it makes me sad that ther are so many great and smart women out there who have to deal with such assclowns.
I am (hopefully freeing myself from it soon) in a classic “whatchamacallit situation”!
The guy was too good to be true, like my dream guy, except that he doesn’t want to get involved with me and seems very EU ;).
And of course he had all the signs and said from the start that he doesn’t want to settle down now – which would have been ok for me because I think I am also kind of EU so that I don’t know if I want to settle down.
Long storty short: I have never been so crazy in love and never felt so attracted to a guy. And this guy won’t get physical with me, because whatchamacallit…he just wants a platonic friendship now.
We hooked up once, and I would have even left it at that, but he immediately started to chase me and win me over.
He was sending all these signals that were clearly not how you treat a mate.
Typcical! And then he brought excuses like ‘if we have sex, it leads to feelings and then everything will end in drama’. Please note, he also wanted to work with me.
Well, all in all a real clusterf*ck.
So now, I am just trying to let go of him emotionally and consider if I can actually be friends with him at all (I will see him around for business stuff, still don’t thin he is a “bad” person) and if there is any good coming out of that situation…
At the moment, I feel very disappointed, sad, hopeless and angry!
Arianne, like you say it is “Well, all in all a real clusterf*ck.”
And you can’t be friends with him because, “I have never been so crazy in love and never felt so attracted to a guy.”
He is ambiguous, EU, doesn’t know what he wants, maybe has someone else, maybe gay, who knows. Your phrase in my first sentence says it really all.
NC. Don’t get involved deeper in the situation.
Thanks, Sofia.
I know, I know. He definitely has massive issues. He’s the type of guy that wants to be liked by everyone, but doesn’t seem to be able to deal with women really opening to him. He has “that ex” around of course. Classic (?):
he broke it off because she wanted to settle down, but because he is oh such a nice guy (HAHA), he still is “friends” with her (no sex, which I believe, he doesn’t seem to be very sex-driven) – and by that stop her from moving on and getting what she wants.
So he really has a way of making people who like him unhappy, although he is kinda like a little boy that wants to be good. Does that make sense?
Anyway…I am already deeply involved in the situation In fact, I feel/hope I am already over the worst heartache. I begin to really see how complicated and immature he is and that I really don’t have to feel unattractive/not interesting enough/too this/too that.. because he isn’t into me.
Arianne, you say you’re crazy mad for him, but he’s displaying such disrespectful and unavailable behaviours.
Do you think this might be a hint that you too might be unavailable – not ‘kind of EU’, but completely and utterly EU?
That perhaps around 99% of his allure for you is that he’s a bad boy who won’t settle down, doesn’t care about you, isn’t interested in anything longterm?
So maybe it’s not about him, but about you – and maybe it’s time to start finding answers to those inner questions of your own …
Thanks, Ethelreda. I most certainly AM unavailable. There, I said it 😉
My last relationship dates 7 years back and ended for long distance reasons, and ever since then I feel like I would love to have a relationship, but then again, I kind of like living independently.
And to be honest, I like the idea of having a smart, funny and attractive man in my life – but more in the “crush”/falling in love stage than in a “we share an apartment and our life” kind of way.
Big reason is probably as well that I want to be “validated” and desperately want to feel desired.
The EUM I’m talking about now is not a “bad boy” per se, he comes across as a super friendly and warm person (I know I wrote “comes across” which already implies he might not really be…). But he seems to draw back as soon as something gets a bit more intense, I guess.
I am sure I hold on to an idea of him being “my guy” – it seemed like he was my prince for a bit…I know how sad it sounds and what it says about me.
And one reason why I have such a hard time of letting go (I know there won’t be a relationship, but I still feel like I want him in my life in some way), is that I felt good when we were together. I felt good because I was with him and I also felt good about the way he made me feel indirectly.
And a main issue is also that I was so insanely physically attracted to him. Never had this before and feel I’ll never have this again. He is extraordinary goodlooking and attractive. Like “people tell him all the time”-hot. And I understand this is probably what made him this way in the first place. But I have to admit, I am not immune to it and this makes a big part of the attraction.
Oh god, how do I start to untangle my mess?
I have these ideals how my guy should be, and I am not even sure I really want to let go of them…
I would love to share my story, too and hopefully have some sense knocked into me as I still hold on to my AC and don’t know how to let go.
We met at work three years ago while both being in a relationship. Within six months we got closer (lunch, gym, long working hours etc.). When I realized I was madly in love with him I left my boyfriend but didn’t tell my co-worker about my feelings for him because I didn’t want to come between him and his gf. There had never been something physical between us at this point.
Another three months down the road his gf left him and moved out. I was so happy. A few weeks later we started dating and got in a relationship. I was the happiest woman on earth. However, exactly three days after we had made our relationship official his ex asked him back and he told me he had to give it another try with her. She moved back in and I was out of the picture.
I went to NC, going to work was hell. We only politely talked when we had to about work-related issues.
Four months passed and then we had to go on a business trip together for a week. We talked day and night and he told me he didn’t want to be with his gf, he was just worried to end it because he had envisioned a future with her and was worried to throw everything away over his feelings for me. We ended up sleeping together (not proud of it but couldn’t help it).
Long story short: When we got back home he didn’t break up with her and came up with a bunch of dumb excuses (“she is so fragile right now”…) and even lies. I told him we needed to talk about this and we set a day and a time. Well, he stood me up and didn’t pick up the phone nor answered my text. I was so angry so we stopped talking again. He was always very polite to me at work, I had to force myself to behave in a professional way but I managed.
Very slowly, over the course of around a year we got closer again. He excused his behavior with his “emotional turmoil”. He left his gf (not for me, just because they were really done this time around), she moved out four months ago. We had yet another major fallout when he told me that my “advances” were putting too much pressure on him and that I made him uncomfortable. I told him he wouldn’t have to worry about it anymore and totally avoided him once again (yes, that’s a pattern). I was so hurt about that. He excused himself many, many times a few weeks later and tried hard to get back on my good side and, fool as I am, I gave in. He said he didn’t mean it and bla bla bla and that he couldn’t stand doing the whole NC thing again.
I told him I needed to see whether or not I could trust and respect him again, but the reality is that I was hoping we’d get back together. I told him I wanted to take things slow (not true, but I thought it was smart). He said he’d love for us to be friends again and then take it from there. But he doesn’t want to ever take it a step further, I think. He will call me when he wants to, text when he wants to, drops by my office when he wants to, suggest plans when he wants to – but that’s it. He sometimes says he’ll call if he’s free on a certain day and then he doesn’t call. I maybe text him twice a week and sometimes he doesn’t even get back to me. As a result I sometimes also ignore his texts and feel so childish about it. The other day we both came out of our offices at the exact same moment and he ignored me (yes, he saw me, even though he said he didn’t afterwards). He doesn’t come to see me in my office as often as he used to. He stood me up for an important meeting last week sending me a short text saying he wasn’t feeling well and never apologized. When I needed help with my kitchen sink he didn’t offer even though he’s very handy. Well, the list goes on. I constantly feel rejected and he says that it is absolutely not the case. Others would describe me as very rational and reflective, I feel like a hysterical drama queen when it comes to him. I feel small and pathetic and very, very dumb.
Please tell me what to do. I don’t know why I can’t get over this guy and why I am trying so hard for him to “love” me.
Thank you!
Hello Marguerite,
It’s easy to talk when I am not in the situation, but actually before more a year I was in similar situation. Yes the person on the other end did some shady thing and was controlling the situation ( no responses, disappearing for 1 – 2 weeks, broken promises and not even excuse, when I was trying take move on she will just send me phony text to check me ). We worked on 20 meters from each other and for me every day was painful.
I am young and I am good professional in my area, I also was running small business before a year ago. One day I had my enough moment and I declared NC.
Even with NC it was hard for me to move on ( I had a chance to see her every day ). I easy found a job from outside the country and I moved to another country.
I want to stress 2 things:
1 ) My last day in my home country a mutual friend asked me if I am moving because of her. Tricky, ahh? My answer was: “I am moving because of me, because I want to move on and this is my way, she doesn’t have nothing to do with this. She is no in my life anymore and I am doing this because of myself, because I felt that for me is hard to move on if I stay my city where both of us are living. I do this because of myself.”
2 ) Recently I spoke with a friend. I told him the story about my drama. I’ve even was shaking a bit while I was talking about this ( a clear sign, that I need more time out of the dating pool ). He asked me, what if we cross paths again with her. I said, that I will just avoid her, even will turn my head in the other side. He asked: “But don’t you want to talk with her?” Well I just said something that I realized recently: “I think no, because she never invested enough to get to know me. Why after long time of NC she will have genuine interest to talk with me, in case she even doesn’t know who really I am? For her I was a buffer and guy with who she was passing time. May be if she wants to talk with me it will be because she doesn’t want to feel bad. If she doesn’t bother me it’s even better, because she will not need me to pump her ego!”
Marguerite, you are saying: “Please tell me what to do.” … I can tell you: “Choose yourself!”
Please tell me what to do. I don’t know why I can’t get over this guy and why I am trying so hard for him to “love” me.
I can’t fix your sink, but I can certainly get the plunger down into your relationship, and then straighten up, rub my back, and hold up a horrible, slime-covered ball of something, and say, ‘Well, Marguerite, there’s your problem, right there’ …
The more I read this blog, the more I realise just how un-alone I am in being emotionally unavailable myself! Your expectations are being managed down, you’re being gaslighted, he is blowing hot and cold – it’s all textbook Baggage Reclaim stuff.
He’s got you ‘hooked’, probably because he’s dangling just out of reach, and you are like the person playing on those stupid slot machines, trying to pick up the ‘prize’, but somehow the little crane always drops it. But the game is actually rigged for you to lose. For more info on that, read Natalie’s essays on ‘hooks’. Find out what your hooks are, and untangle. The freedom is exhilarating.
I’m not sure he’s an assclown, though. He sounds just like a mixed-up idiot to me. And as such, he should be avoided like the plague anyway. You don’t want a doofus in your life, especially not someone who blames everyone but himself for the emotional chaos around him.
And above all, see this as the time you learned a super-valuable lesson: don’t get involved with people in the workplace. It’s just too awful afterwards.
BR is a great resource – read the essays, and learn.
“The game is actually rigged for you to lose.”
You are not dealing with decent people. Whether they are indecent on a conscious level (meaning they are selfish) or on an unconscious level (meaning they are mixed-up idiots, as Eth says), it doesn’t matter–you have to get out–go NC.
I’ll never forget when the AC told me, with visible, marked contempt and hatred (with a sneer and a nasty look in his eye), “I’ll call you,” while holding my business card. This was on the night we met, after he chased me like crazy. It didn’t seem sincere, and it wasn’t–though, at the time, it SEEMED hugely flattering.
Reason why he did it? Because I wished him a happy birthday, when I had just found out that it was his birthday.
Little did I know that he met his ex (who is now his wife) on his birthday.
HAD no idea about this until years–YEARS–later.
And I was so puzzled by it at the time. But I dismissed it. Wrong thing to do.
He was never available. He was in a relationship with someone else, and you weren’t available either, you had a boyfriend.
So you left your boyfriend for him, but not only did he not leave his girlfriend for you, he still doesn’t want a relationship with you.
And now say you want a relationship with him built on trust, but yet you are lying to him as you speak.
That’s crazy making.
I would go NC and get some counseling.
@Marguerite
“And now you say you….”
What you need to do is be cordial in the work environment.
You need to read Natalie’s works on the “Fallback Girl” and Fantasy relationships. They will give you insight. “exactly after three days we made our relationship official.. she moved back in with him, I was out of the picture”. This man is processing the loss of a relationship he wanted but it didn’t work out. You were an ego boost. You are chasing him, his heart isn’t into it. Move on. Get busy with a million activities and friends.
Marguerite: A good relationship shouldn’t be this full of ambiguity. Focus on how much the ambiguity itself is a bad sign.
Thing is, it doesn’t sound like you want an honest relationship, you want him for some other reason: is he very good-looking? successful? what is it?
He lied to you, you say. He has stood you up many times, doesn’t answer texts, etc. He is clearly NOT encouraging a relationship. Why push someone who is reluctant to be with you?
“My “advances” were putting too much pressure on him,” – are you ignoring signals to back off? “When I needed help with my kitchen sink he didn’t offer even though he’s very handy” – um, why do you expect this of him? Even a boyfriend isn’t your de facto handyman. “I told him I wanted to take things slow (not true, but I thought it was smart)” – sounds like you’re lying to him, too.
All around a lot of unavailable behaviour here. Step back and take a look at what your motivations for dating are.
Marguerite,
I don’t know if he’s EU, or not, but clearly he is showing that he is not interested in you.
He has used you when it has been convenient, and is clearly showing he doesn’t redpect or care about you.
Please seek some counseling to understand why you are chasing after something that doesn’t exist.
Dear all,
thank you for your thoughts, wisdom, kindness, and advice. I really want to “choose myself”. I feel as if I’ve read way too many self-help books (and half the psy-section in the library) and still can’t get my cognitive and my emotional side in tune… I feel like I am wasting so much time on this and can’t let go.
When he blows hot, I believe him (telling me he loves me, telling me that I was never his rebound but always the woman he wanted to be with, walking around the parking lot 20 times just to run into me by accident, swinging by with lunch…) and it makes me so happy.
When he blows cold, I also believe him (saying he is overwhelmed by his feelings, not picking up the phone on the very few occasions I call, standing me up…) and it makes me very sad. All in all, it’s driving me crazy. (Also, he’s asked me a few times to not move away from him and to please wait for him until he figures himself out).
Yes, I’ve also been dishonest when I didn’t tell him I was still in love with him. However, I didn’t think he deserved it, I wanted to hold on to my pride, and I was hoping that this would give him the room he apparently needs.
I thought about leaving the city and changing my job, but I love my job and have invested so much in my career. It is rather impressive how we managed to not have all this play out in the workplace even though I sometimes just want to explode. Also, my family lives in the same town and my parents are getting older… I don’t want to have to give all this up just because I can’t get over a man.
The hook-reference was also spot on, however, though I can grasp and see it, I can’t get passed it.
I believe that my worries to never meet another man that I will like this much is also part of all this. I haven’t met a guy I thought was interesting in many years. It was so easy in college and now it isn’t. I’ve successfully focused a lot on my career in the past ten years and by now I really hear my biological clock ticking loudly and it makes me panic. I don’t want to miss that train and probably that is why I am longing for us to be in a relationship even more…
I want him to be an AC, but he just seems confused and lost. That makes it harder to walk away. But then again I think it is extremely rude not to return calls even though the caller asks you to, and to stand somebody up, and to lie in somebody’s face. I am not at all pushy, by the way. I just don’t know who he is.
Magnolia is right that he’s not my handyman, but we’ve always done things for the other person, e.g. I can’t even count how many times I had the screen of his cell phone fixed for him because he always drops it. It was very unusual for him not to offer help.
Yes, it is ambiguous and it hurts me so much. And probably that enough should let me give up. Should I just lay down all the cards on the table one more time and if he tells me again that he is not “ready” or anything along these lines finally walk away and go back to NC? Will I ever have a chance if I simply “sit it out” and wait? I have told him before that his behavior is hurtful and that I don’t understand it. He then hugs me and tells me he’s sorry and that he sometimes simply doesn’t grasp certain things. It’s a shallow excuse… I just got tired of talking it out, I am so annoyed with all the talking.
Marguerite
I was in a similar situation but didn’t know my work buddy was involved with another. Frankly, as was I, you are being used for attention. You now see why workplace romances have so much potential for disaster; things go south and escaping the situation has incredible and life altering consequences. I can tell you what I ve done to try and fix things. First take back or gain your personal power. You’re gonna have to ignore this dude, should he ask why, tell him straight and without drama. Learn to fix stuff yourself and he can fix his own damned phone; maybe then he’ll take better care of it. Socialize outside the workplace, if possible; if not, go out on your own. It’s incredibly sad when this sort of thing happens. Often theworkplace IS the only place there are folk one has anything remotely in common with and it becomes even more frustrating when your dating pool yields only dudes far less educated, put together, far less attractive or articulate than the dude you want. I live with this every damned workday and it truly bites. Forcing oneself to force attraction to another doesn’t fix this and is unfair to the other party. Since you have family, turn to them for support. What I amseeing here is that this dude is all over the place, an emotional train wreck. What’ll happen here is that he’ll take up with another who doesn’t know his history, and your biological clock will have left the building long before he ever comes round. My at work AC, not only used me for attention while involved with another, he overlapped her with a woman friend who now sees me as the evil one. Avoiding them at meetings, in the grocery, even in my own workplace, is great fun. For some reason, due to him alone, he wants your attention but is unwilling/unable to reciprocate. If the situation doesn’t improve, you may have to leave the workplace, maybe leave your town if it is small. Not fair, but necessary. Maybe he’ll leave, maybe not but I can tell you that if the situation continues, it won’t end well. Make strong, hard goals to become more self sufficient and to meet like minded folk. I have three simultaneous paths: find a new job in a field and place I want to be in, meet someone I am attracted to who works well for me but doesn’t live here to avoid an AC like situation again, and work hard to increase the sale value of my house so I can escape, with or without job. At this point of my life, anything else is counterproductive and wasting time. Sorry to be so harsh, but I really don’t want you to go thru years of anguish like I have. Life is just too short.
I am hoping your situation changes for the better. I haven’t been exactly where you are, but probably somewhere in the same neighborhood (metaphorically).
Hi Marguerite: I see better now the degree of mixed signals you’re being sent. Unfortunately, just because he IS actively keeping you dangling doesn’t mean there’s much to hang onto. Noquay’s right.
Mixed signals usually means someone is holding back to check out all their options. It’s a cruel tactic that mimics being interested but really isn’t. When someone is interested with genuine feelings, you know it! Keeping you dangling is a sign of immaturity and lack of character. This guy is no prize. Just another doofus who’s “lost and confused” but has no problem keeping you on the back burner just in case. A decent guy can certainly feel lost and confused, but then such a guy would bow out gracefully knowing and leave you alone, knowing that to do anything else would be to use you. This guy? Immature, superficial, a user. No prize.
Hello Marguerite,
I am happy that you have the support of your family! In my case I also have it and I can say, that I really love and respect them.
I guess that you read my previous comment. May be it sounds extreme to leave the city or the country. Of course this is my case/life and for me it was really fine. This is my spirit and really like to change the environment from time to time. She wasn’t the only one reason why I moved. I also dreamed to see new places and to have some new experiences.
If somehow you are able to distance yourself emotionally from him, then you will start to notice the other valuable folks around you. But if you stay near to him, then you will be just blinded. I don’t want to blame him or to say that he is AC, maybe he is a great person, but what I am saying is to choose yourself.
Doing NC is about you, it’s not a way to trick the other people and to make them feel bad about themselves or to try to get them back.
It’s about us, but it’s not easy decision.
Good luck.
Sometimes if these kinds of situations are unsolvable, yep, the scorched earth policy may be what needs to happen. It would be really nice if the ACs were the ones to go away but they’ve got what they want, where they want, and we do not. It’s easy to just pick up and leave when roaming is part of your nature and it’s a matter of moving a few things from an apartment. Us women are a lot more stability-oriented, hate being forced to move, especially if it happens multiple times. We want a home base. Moving an entire farm is a major undertaking and involves years of constructing outbuildings, home repair, often land restoration. Daunting for a smallish-built female with a serious day job. However, if one finds where you tried to put down roots has poisoned soil, tis necessary.
Wow Noquay, you just hit it on the head as to one of the biggest reasons of all why I am still married: because the thought of being driven out of my own home that I have been paying for the whole time and where I have finally begun to put down some roots after a long-term nomadic lifestyle simply galled me. After the enormous amount of time and effort and money out of pocket I have invested in retrofitting this place to make it livable, plus a similar amount of effort and investment in the organic garden I have been keeping here, not to mention the sheer cost of trying to move (YET AGAIN!) with all the stuff I have acquired by now just made it too overwhelming. While far from an ideal solution, I have by now reached the point where I am ready to do a total liquidation and start all over again from scratch if that is indeed what it will take to free myself from being “under occupation”….
Brenda
Understand fully. I cannot tell you how many times I have rented places, spent much time/money/effort classing them up only to have them sold out from under me by folks who would systematically destroy everything I did. My whole young-womanhood was this way and I became sick of it. I wanted to own a place that is reflective of my values and live my lifestyle. I literally took this place from mined out scorched earth to a fledgling native forest, shown a very impoverished community that yep, its possible to grow your own food,empower ourselves. I may well have to throw this away, loose everything, live in poverty, making myself into the very sort of person I have tried so hard to avoid here. Do you own your home absolutely? Was it yours before you married? If so, why is it YOU have to leave? Are there possibilities for rship in your town or is it like mine? My places, and now alas, my late fathers place, are in my name absolutely. Except formy current abode, they’re paid for. Despite how well my marriage had turned out, I always understood things can go south and vowed never again would I be displaced, homeless, ever, regardless of circumstances. We women really need a plan B, maybe plan C too.
I think I must be on Plan “M” or “N” by this point.
Not too long ago I figured out one more reason why I have been spinning my wheels instead of getting any real traction with any useful thing for so many years now: because I have been putting so much of my time and energy and money into retrofitting a series of shithole apartments to get them into a condition I find tolerable. At some point I just woke up one morning and realized that I was fed up with having what I can or can’t do and have dictated at me by irrelevant third parties while it was becoming increasingly important to me that my home reflect my values and aesthetic, and accommodate my lifestyle. I am still renting — getting into a position to buy a place anywhere I could consider living looks exceedingly remote — but we/I have a good landlord who lets me do pretty much any damn thing I want to the place.
Before my husband went back to Japan (where he is from) to work for five months after living off of me for the past 10 years here in California, he was not willing to cooperate with getting divorced, i.e., he planned on making a big, expensive legal drama of it that I would get stuck with having to pay for since I’m the one with the income/job/etc. I also have good cause to believe that our legal system is fucked up enough to find me liable for having to pay alimony to that asshole, where in any just world he would owe ME reparations for the shit he has put me through over the past 15 years. Additionally, since I stupidly sponsored his immigration visa (green card), I am on the hook for him financially until he can provide 10 years of tax returns demonstrating that he is financially viable.
Having spent the past five months re-learning how to be a functioning adult, he is being much more reasonable now, and has agreed to cooperate with the divorce and avoid the expense of taking it to court, so I may not have to cut and run after all, but then again, I’m dealing with who I’m dealing with. It seems particularly absurd how I never wanted to end up dependent on a man or get married — always preferring to earn my own money and live in poverty if need be so I could have my own place, only to end up with a manchild dependent on me. I still can’t wrap my head around how he can be so okay with that.
I live in L.A. (the very epicentre of it), and while it is easy to tell myself that in this town out of the millions upon millions of people who live here, what’s on offer are Assclowns, Narcissists, Aspiring Celebrities, Shysters, Impoverished Struggling Artists, Fat Old Farts, Ne’er Do Wells and More Assclowns (oh, and Infuriatingly Stupid Drivers); I am certain there must be at least ONE AVAILABLE GUY somewheres about this place who is at least as cool smart and handsome and compatible-sounding as my fantasy online “other man” seems (that story on another thread), and also comes with the benefit of living HERE instead of on the other side of the fucking planet.
That said, concerning my “hostage” situation, my “other man” has suggested on occasion that picking up and moving to his place would solve it handily, and it would indeed, as no one would find me there. However I just don’t feel up to another hugely disruptive, costly overseas move just yet.
Nope, I’d say hunker down, live where you want, how you want. Maybe if Mr. Japan meets someone there, wants to marry etc, he may become a whole lot more amenable to a quick divorce. Having an estranged spouse does have a deleterious effect on the ol dating life. I always wanted to be married, just not dependent on anyone, ever. I’d keep your Spidey senses on high alert with online dude. Funny, I always thought LA would be chock full of progressive hip types, shows what little I know. We have overaged ski bums, high percentages of mentally ill and alcoholics, and lotsa Libertarian gun luvvin, anti govvermint folks, and a veritable plethora of potheads. No sane woman dates here. Maybe we can get an exchange program going, eh?
Noquay,
I agree with you and this gives different point of view, that I for sure overlooked. Currently my life is simple. I am young, recognized professional in my work area ( I can easy get salary increase or to move to new job/city ) and I also try to keep my life minimalist ( not buying so much things and not investing in long term things ).
So far, so good, but I don’t know where I will be after 10 years … probably I will have roots and this minimalist life will be past for me, but I hope that I will be in healthy relationship with myself and partner at this moment.
Thanks.
U
Yep, I am probably your exact opposite. Nearly twice your age, senior level prof but burned out in much of my field, heavily questioning the status quo in my field (having ones life threatened, being starved outta your institution will do that), a scientist by trade but with a really artistic, creative, social/enviro justice sides. I am too old really, for a job market that wants strict publish and perish folk who will stick around for decades. I was displaced, farmed out many times as a child, as a young woman, I had gone from rental to rental, starting over yet again upon the breakup of my marriage. I want to move to my farm back home, have a rship of the quality I had with my husband, write scathing enviro articles and help others to bail out of the status quo. As a child, I lived hungry, with roaches, in a tenement. No more city for me, ever. I read a lot about our lack of self sufficiency skills, the failure of fracking, about Peak Oil. City dwellers are in trouble. As a Native woman, whose family was landless, whose tribe was horribly treated by “my” government, a sense of place, of belonging, of bio region is far more important than career. If indeed, I have to, in order to want to keep living (often in question these days) I have to be irresponsible, immoral, and bail on my mortgage and other debts here, put myself into poverty, I truly will live off the land back home, and since I would’ve just also ensured that I am alone for life (I have no family and no one should date a deadbeat by choice), I will remove myself from society entirely (plan C). No marginalized, old maid status for this chick! I am glad to hear your perspective Mr. U. Tis good for us to understand where others are coming from and helps us all make better decisions about our lives.
Marguerite – I know that you really want him to say ‘I’ve made up my mind, I choose you.’ But he’s not going too. My ex went back and forth and was ambiguous like this for 1.5 years. He would say things to me like ‘we have great chemistry, we get along great, you are my best friend, you are the first person I want to tell something too…but something is missing. I feel like if I don’t get my head out of my ass I will lose you.’ This always gave me hope. He didn’t say this crap just once, he said it alot. And it kept me in a holding pattern. It kept me thinking if I just did that or this, he would change his mind. If I do this for him, he will see how great I am and want to choose me finally. I finally told him he had to stop saying it unless he was going to do something about it. One day, I finally did get the I choose you speech, but I only got it after I told him I saw something going somewhere with a guy I had been dating for a few months. After much talking, he swore that he was ready, that he realized how he felt for me, he needed me blah blah blah but really he was losing control. Everything Natalie talks about. We lasted 7 months. He managed down my expectations. We had a lot of fun together, but he didn’t add anything to my life. He was in my life for a total of 2.5 years. We broke up last year in May. We were mostly NC for about a month until he started pestering me to see a movie, and I gave in. We fell into old habits, and well I went full NC with him in September when he told me he was talking to someone new who had just gotten out of a marriage. I am in a much better place, but still carry around hurt. All this to say, that you need to go NC and start choosing you and working through your feelings. Its going to hurt, but the longer you drag this out the more you will be me. The more you will create hopes in your head of living together, getting married and having a baby. He needs to take time to himself to heal from his past relationship and to work himself too. You shouldn’t want to even be with him until he does that and he is showing you that he is a mess.
Marguerite,
This is a painful situation, but there are two varieties of pain you can experience over this. The first is what you have now: this pain springs from a place inside you that automatically holds negative and false self beliefs, perhaps some of which might be – I am not good enough; I am not lovable; I have to please others and ignore my own needs or I am being bad and he won’t love me and rightly so; nothing I want, need, desire matters; I am unlovable and unimportant; I will be abandoned and I deserve it. Whilst being driven by deeply held convictions such as these, when we intuitively register a ‘truth’ – in this case that this man is not interested in/unable to be in a mutual relationship based on *respect*, *care*, *trust* leading to *love* with you, the pain of the rejection feels unbearable. This is why you keep it humming away in the background through excuse making around why he *can’t* be with you now but will be in the future.
Here is the reality as viewed from an outsider whose senses are not muddled by this kind of horrendous self destructive pain: If someone wants to develop a mutual, honest relationship with you they will act on that. If they are emotionally aware and working on themselves they will know their own minds and act. They will either put both feet in and enter into a mutual and respectful discovery or they will recognise they either don’t want to or are incapable of proceeding and *respectfully* tell you so and then leave you *alone*. The reality is that this man is careless and self absorbed and has nothing to give you but chooses to treat you disrespectfully. It doesn’t matter that he doesn’t see it this way, that’s not your concern. Your concern is that you can’t see that you are being disrespectful of your own needs because all your energy is going into keeping your pain under wraps – the pain that comes with believing that you don’t matter.
If we can realise that we do matter then we will *painfully* realise what it means when others behave and act and speak like this towords us. We will painfully acknowledge that they do not share our genuine interest and are communicating this. We will feel the sting of being rejected before our self respect and conviction that we matter reasserts itself and we are able to act accordingly in our own best interests. This is the second kind of pain – it is bearable, healthy and will pass.
It’s hard work, it’s daily work – to keep building on new loving, caring and respectful self belief. It doesn’t happen in a vacuum – you have to live and take daily actions from a different place. It can feel lonely in relapse but the key is to consistently find the courage to keep moving in a new direction. I have recently been surprised by finding that I have this positive quality of courage and am proud of myself.
You sound strong and capable Marguerite. You can discover that you deserve reciprocal and mutual care and respect from others and that your needs, that *you* do matter.
I just read this blog entry again and it really is SO for me.
This:
“It can feel as if you’re going through a breakup but then you may feel ‘wrong’ for feeling this way as you may not believe that you have a legitimate reason.”
So so much! I am so sad, hurt, and feel such a loss that I think I am really ridiculous because I am grieving for something I never really had. Just grieving for a projection, a hope, a fantasy, and a few summer months of having him in my life (sort of).
But why does it hurt so bad? Why I am crying so much? I go through these bouts where I just want to lay on the floor and weep. And I feel like I still hope that he will be in my life in one way or another. Dammit!
@Maguerite: Just wanted to say, I feel your pain, I am right there with you now. I,too, also feel almost like a hysterical needy drama queen that won’t let go – which I don’t…
I almost forgot what it feels like to not think about him, not wait for a response, not hope…
This. It is really isolating because I can’t even call him my “ex.” Just a friend-turned-summer-fling who totally turned my world upside down and made me feel (good) things I’ve never felt in my life. I never tried to change or influence him but the ambiguity did result in a tearful “break-up” and weeks upon weeks of grieving on my end, at least. And I don’t think he’s really an AC, though he did say and do some inconsiderate/insensitive things and told me he’s a mess, I deserve to be happy, I’m wonderful, etc. etc. The shame of being so deeply affected/hurt by the loss compounds the sadness. I wish I’d had a better handle on my feelings, and then maybe we could have continued seeing each other occasionally for a shag and snuggle and the cold winter would be more tolerable. I defriended him on Facebook because I figured I needed to get my mind right and not have the opportunity to look at his carefree/jolly updates but now I regret it and am beating myself up for being so rash and dramatic over someone who wasn’t even my boyfriend. I can’t stop second-guessing my reactions to, and interpretations of, everything that’s happened. Now I don’t even have him as a friend and I feel like such a fool.
Marguerite.
If you continue down this path you “will miss the train.”
You must look only at the actions. If you want a future and children, then this isn’t the guy.
Once again: THANK YOU for your replies!
I talked to him yesterday and told him everything there was to say. I wish I would have done that a long, long time ago instead of being scared of the truth and hoping he’d ask me to be his gf on a daily basis. To sum it up, he said that he didn’t want to be in a relationship with me nor with anybody else “at this point in time” (nope, this didn’t get my hopes up, it’s the usual bs though it is the truth) . He also made me feel guilty when he said that I made him feel so ashamed about his past actions and that I wouldn’t forgive him anyway that it was hard for him to think of a fresh start. Well, frankly, he should be ashamed, and I don’t see why I should give him a “fresh start” when he never tried hard enough to deserve one.
I told him I didn’t want to stay friends (after all, I wanted to be his gf, not his friend, and I really can’t handle the “lesser” option, I’d always hope for more). He said that he respects my decision even though he’d prefer us remaining close. I just know that friendship is not an option for me and that I need to move on.
I guess posting here marked one of the last steps on a journey to sanity. I am really thankful for your time, empathy and clever thoughts! Can’t believe it took so long. I’ll avoid him as much as I can (I guess we’ll still run into each other at work…), and if I can’t handle it I’ll consider leaving my job (@ Still Mr. U: I really think it was such a smart move to leave the country and surround yourself with new experiences and a whole new environment!). I asked him if he would leave and he said that if, a few weeks down the road, this really was what I wanted he would consider because he “owes” me (no idea if he’d really do that).
@ Lynn: I totally saw myself in your post. Thank you!
@ lizzp: I very much “feel the sting of being rejected” right now, but I know that I finally took the first step to recovery and hopefully not “missing the train” (@ Allison: yup, you’re right, tooo. Ahhh! I am so angry right now).
Finally I am moving forward. Your posts really made me feel better. I know that I won’t let him sweet talk me again even though I miss him like crazy already. He’s nowhere near “ready”, he might never be (at least not for me, I just hope he won’t fall head over heels for another woman as long as I am not over him). Now I just need the pain to go away but this will be easier than waiting around for him and hoping…
Thanks again!
Marguerite,
It will take some time, but eventually things will feel better after some distance.
Also, forgive yourself, and learn from this situation. I too, hurt tremendously from my split with AC, but learned so much about myself in the process. The most important part is not to repeat these soul destroying situations, but become emotionally healthy people. You must understand what brought you to this man.
All the best!
Hello Marguerite,
I am passing different healing phases. I was in shock, I had sleepless nights, I was angry, I even was crying. Expect different kind of emotions. One moment you will laugh and may be another you will cry or you will get sad, because you will remind a story.
Anyway it’s a process and as I read in some of the comments before months ago, this process is not linear.
The phase that I still can’t pass is the forgiveness and understanding my reactions during the contact with her. I think that I am in the end and soon I will be emotionally fine, but I also will take a couple of months before I data again. Forgiving to him and yourself is not easy, there will be self blame and blame on him, but if finally you are able to heal you will know yourself much better.
If you are hardly trying to avoid him is also tricky, because I remember that I had moments when I was spending too much mental energy in thinking how to avoid her. She was still occupying my mind.
Be patient and good luck 🙂
This post helps so much. I could really use some advice. I’ve been seeing a guy for 5 weeks and I’m always so lost. We have a great time together, he’s brought me around his friends and family, and it seems as if he genuinely likes me. But the communication portion is weird. He told me he has never been in a real relationship so if I expect something out of him, just tell him. But how do I tell someone, “Hey text or call to say good morning here or there, or ask how my day is going.” I’m very worried about seeming needy or expecting too much too soon but it’s really throwing me off.
I feel like I initiate contact a bit more than him so this week I decided to back off a little and wait to see if he contacts me and I haven’t heard from him all week…If I were to text or call, he would respond right away and we would probably hang out, it’s just the fact that I feel like if I don’t initiate- it wont happen, or will take a while for him to reach out.
I do have a huge fear of abandonment so not being contacted for some days by someone that I am sleeping with and seeing triggers that anxiety for me…but is that a normal reaction for those of you that do not have that fear?
Joanne
It’s a perfectly normal reaction on your part. I don’t know if you’ve ever studied adult attachment styles and how they affect relationships, but looking at your situation through the prism of attachment styles might shed more light on your guy’s behaviour. There’s loads of information online about attachment styles, but this website’s a good place to start:
http://www.dralangraham.com/Office/Relationships__Avoidant_Style.html
Iain
Joanne, I was giving your situation some thought…for some reason it kept popping into my head, and I found myself getting angry FOR you…
“He told me he has never been in a real relationship so if I expect something out of him, just tell him.”
Your guy is putting all the heavy lifting of your “potential relationship” on your shoulders. He plans to never “show up” and be a participant in it, and then blame you when you finally have an emotional explosion over his lack of participation by telling you that you never told him you wanted these things you are *suddenly* so angry about.
He is NOT PARTICIPATING. I bet he manages a phone call or a text when he needs a shag, doesn’t he. Then, once sated, he disappears until he needs a shag again…letting you build up a fantasy relationship in your brain.
You want a man to be thinking about you, interested in your day-to-day, interested in making YOUR life pleasanter. You don’t want him to call you every day because you told him to call you every day.
He is setting you up for a booty call disguised as a relationship.
Stop having sex with him, because you know you need a man who doesn’t disappear after sex. This man shows you that he WILL disappear after sex. The fact that you feel bad is telling you that he is not for you. And if you succeed in getting him to go through the motions and call you on some prearranged schedule, it will be a soul-killing experience for you because you are STILL in doubt about whether there is any caring in this man for you.
Men who care about their women do things for those women without prompting.
And WHY do we place so much value on the fact that a man introduces us to family and friends early on in the getting to know each other discovery phase? It more than likely means nothing, or it could mean something nefarious ( she number what this year, boys?) – but it is certainly not a guaranteed sign that he thinks you are The One.
And…
Needy. Abandonment Issues. Those things do exist but they are not in play here, IMO.
Having needs does not equal needy. You have a need to have more contact than he is giving you. You also have a need to feel your sex partner WANTS more contact with you, outside of sex.
He is getting what he wants from you, then leaving you alone for weeks and living his life without you.
Now, he can’t read your mind and know what you want. And I know you are SO ready to jump on that and excuse his neglectful behavior. But men show interest when they HAVE interest. He is not showing any interest. You can give him a schedule, tell him when to contact you, and maybe he will fulfill that schedule. But I am pretty sure you will still feel empty and unsure.
Once more, with feeling. That’s the musical director’s line when he wants something behind the music, something more than just playing the notes. It makes all the difference.
Very, very true Elgie
Often a dude is showing you off, a form of bragging rights, a reflection of himself. He is saying “look, I CAN have a relationship with a quality woman; that makes ME quality”. A dude here, who went thru girlfriends like the rest of us change our socks, wanted me, an exotic dark fit chick as mere eye candy, to show off his accomplishment. Trauma man probably wanted to show his accomplished, wealthy sibs, who have been telling him to heal from his trauma, get on with life, get his financial act together, that he wasn’t such a failure after all. Showing you off to buds and relatives means nothing unless accompanied by consistent caring behavior that occurs without prompting.
Noquay, apropos of this:
Is there a United States problem also with a kind of ‘Thanksgiving faking’? eg. someone tries to get a partner in a hurry so they’ll have someone to take to the family Thanksgiving Dinner which would otherwise be awkward, and then the person gets dumped afterwards?
I suppose in some cases they MIGHT hang around so they can have Christmas, too … I am just thinking of Valentine’s Day and the similar crisis it seems to trigger in some needy people.
Yep, very much so. A good many relationship coaches out there profit off this big time. Get a boyfriend before the holidays, before Valentines day as though one can pick up they instant guy off the grocery shelf along with the mashed potatoes. No matter that perhaps one isn’t in a place to date or that the demographics of your region hasn’t miraculously changed overnight. I’ve gotten numerous emails from such coaches, the very same ones that’ve told me I would need to move away before ever trying to date again. Yep, a mass marketing campaign which is now what mainstream holidays here have become. I skip them entirely, also refusing the “singles” gatherings. No one new to meet and I am sick of being considered an orphan and a stray.
The dudes taking up with someone for the holidays in order to avoid appearing single usually are guys from outside. Trauma man is probably doing this this week as otherwise he has to deal with unpleasant questions from those sibs who actually admired me. Here it’s too small, the pool too well known, to really pull that off.
Been gone for a long while and thought I’d return to say thanks Natalie! I went NC with my crush and it is the best thing Ive ever done. All the signs were there that he liked me, was interested, verbally made plans, etc….then nothing. I got tired of initiating contact, so I quit. He is a musician and sent me his giglist each week (along with about 100 or so other people). After 6 mos. of NC, he took me off his giglist. Now 2 months ago, he’s put me back on!! This is a man in his early 50’s too!! It is truly liberating to be back in control and not fawning over an ass-clown. thanks so much for giving me back my self-esteem. Will check into BR more often!!
This post is incredibly on the money. For real. If the status of you and the other person is ambiguous and that ambiguity tears you apart inside, do like Marilyn Monroe and ‘leave before you’re left.’ Don’t settle for crumbs, for shards of the potential of what ‘could be’ in terms of a ‘relationship,’ when the other person is not willing to give you what you know in your heart you deserve. Sure it will be painful as hell when you cut ties with someone for whom you have developed intense feelings, but the smoke will clear in time (as impossible as it may seem when you’re on the front lines and haven’t yet allowed the dust to settle by walking away from the situation). Trust me. Take it day by day and maintain resolve in refusing to settle for less than you deserve and have faith that it will all work out for your greatest good. Believe it in your heart, because you are worthy of someone who truly cares and is willing to commit to you and only you. You have the power to remove yourself from a situation that is not working for you, that doesn’t feel good per your gut. Distance from the other person is the best medicine in a situation like this.
One of my favorite parts of your post, Natalie, is when you mention not to deny your feelings (no matter the extent of involvement with the other person), because if you suppress them, they will eventually resurface, to your detriment. Allow yourself to experience the loss and the heavy emotion accompanying it, because it’s real and it’s part of you and a necessary component to healing and growth.