It can be a bit of a blindside when you switch from ambiguous, super relaxed and going with the flow, to having expectations of something that’s very much the opposite.The other party may be very content to be ambiguous and undefined – no pressure, no commitment, free to shift the goalposts and even duck responsibility.
Being mutually ambiguous is a breeze until one of you claims to want to settle on one meaning, one direction, and essentially expects commitment.
That’s what being ambiguous is all about – you could take one meaning from theirs (or your) actions and words, but you could equally take another or few. You always know that you’re in something ambiguous when:
- You invest a hell of a lot of energy analysing the crap out of the other person’s behaviour.
- You see at least two possible interpretations of something.
- You’re unwilling to go out on a limb and do the right thing for yourself by asking what the score is and gaining clarification.
- It’s on their terms; terms I might add that you’re unlikely to be in full agreement with.
- You go along with things with a view to gaining a greater reward for your ‘compliance’.
- You don’t say what you truly mean and try to buffer it out of fear of rejection or fear of letting go and then them spontaneously combusting into unambiguous with someone else.
- One of both of you hint but think you’re being direct.
- One or both of you claim that you’re upfront about what you want even though it was said once ages ago or actions directly contradict what was said.
- One or both of you cannot be pinned down to an outcome and a decision.
Here is exactly what being ambiguous in relationships actually means: you don’t know where you stand because a firm choice hasn’t been made, and in fact, other options haven’t been ruled out. It can be made all the more ambiguous if you actually do know where you stand but you keep creating another option because you don’t like the answer to where you’re standing. This is the fundamental reason why people remain in unhealthy relationships after being told what’s up – they stick their fingers in their ears and open up a second, third and even fourth door so that they can ‘stay in the game’.
These ambiguous situations may sound familiar:
Saying that you don’t want a relationship and are going with the flow but acting like someone in a relationship. This is because for many people who attempt to keep their options open and try to limit the risk of rejection, they believe that going with the flow should give the option of flowing to a relationship.
Being reluctant to say what you want and what you need even though you privately have quite clear ideas about what you want and need. It’s either that or you don’t know what you do want and need until you realise that there’s a distinct possibility of you not getting them. This actually gives the impression to the other party that what they’re offering up is an option.
Being in what is quite frankly a crap situation, knowing it’s crap but not actually calling a spade a spade, or calling it and saying “I’m not the kind of person that puts up with this”… only to continue putting up with it afterwards. For another person, being in something that detracts from them isn’t an option, but if you remain (and complain), it suggests that you actually haven’t ruled out staying in something poor and that you haven’t ruled out banking on your three-legged horse to run like a thoroughbred, hence no matter what you say and what you intend to mean, you’re open to interpretation.
Ever flipped a coin to help you make a decision? Well this is what participating in ambiguous relationships is like.
When you flip a coin, your reaction to whether you get heads or tails tells you where your heart really lies with the decision. I come across so many people in pain from ambiguous relationships because what they truly want is something unambiguous and mutually fulfilling but they don’t stand behind their needs, values, self-esteem and their conviction.
Let’s be real – most of us know what we’re truly cut out for, it’s just that we bullshit ourselves and say “I can handle it!” because it’s like selling ourselves in on a cheap deal and hoping to upgrade at a later date. We’re afraid that if we say “Er actually, this isn’t my sort of thing” or “I need to know where I stand, even if it leaves me standing outside of whatever this wishy-washy ‘thing’ is that we have going on” because many of us are conditioned to believe that asking for what you want or having boundaries is ‘bad’. It’s actually normal.
Yet here I am almost seven years into writing Baggage Reclaim and I can tell you that beyond a shadow of a doubt, the people most affected by unavailable relationships not working out are those who were looking to chill out for a bit in nothing serious. Next thing you know, 5, 10, 15 or even 30 years have gone by and they’re stuck in a pattern.
It’s not about saying “I want a relationship!” or laying out your life plan to every prospect, but it is about having a strong recognition of who you are, what you are and are not able for (boundaries) and where you want to end up relationship wise.
Recognising your ‘goal’ actually affects your mindset.
If you want to be in a mutually fulfilling healthy relationship, can you really afford to be asleep on the ‘job’ by going in with your eyes and ears closed, avoiding the discovery phase and taking lengthy periods of time to recover from relationships you claimed you were just ‘going with the flow’ about?
You don’t need to be open to interpretation; you need to be you, and you’ll find it a lot easier to be happy and to create good relationships, romantic and otherwise if you’re not ambiguous about who you are, and what you’re saying and doing.
Unambiguous people have actions and words that consistently match over an extended period of time meaning that it’s a lot easier to recognise someone who is a fly-by-night. If it’s ambiguous and you spend more time in your mind trying to work out what the frick is going on or cannot categorically say where you stand, happiness within a healthy relationship will elude you.
Never give someone the option of taking the p*ss by basically allowing them to have the option of treating you in a less than manner. One choice, unambiguous, and they either have to step up or step out.
Your thoughts?
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I am actually going through this right now. I am a Chicagoan (Go Obama!) and I do not know why I put myself through this. I dated a guy two years ago in which he dumped me for someone else and married this same person a month later. They were only married for three months. A year later he re-contacts me and of course apologized and wanted to work things out. I agreed (I was head over hills about this guy) only to get a text from him two weeks later stating he just wants to be friends. I am on a serious emotional roller coaster with this guy. I am sticking around in hopes that he will change his mind, but as of a few minutes ago I text him (I know lazy communication) and told him that I cannot do this again. My question to you all is what the heck is wrong with me? I think I am an attractive girl, intelligent, have been told I can get anyone I want, etc but this guy is still living with his mom at 35 years old, a wannabe gangsta (wearing the pants falling down type guy), always broke, etc. I do not know what to do?
Char, just one word – Run! Run as fast as you can.
Oh my Goddess, Char, this guy sounds like a complete loser. Not just because he still lives with his mom, not just because of the falling-down pants persona or lack of money, but because he married and then left within three months. He just bailed on a serious committment and he then attempted to hit reset with you, then changed his mind and wants to be friends. Now those are DARK RED flags flapping in the gale of his hot air and dithering.
Please, please do stay firm with your statement that you cannot do this anymore. I know it’s sad and painful because before the drama began, you had given him your heart. It’s hard to take that back, and very hard to release the hopes and dreams that it might work out better if you just give him a chance.
But if there was ever an ambiguous situation, this is it. He doesn’t know what the hell he wants, and he will make your life sheer misery on that roller-coaster until he does, IF he ever does. Add to it the fact that he apparently won’t or can’t support himself, so what do you have? A child – not a grown man capable of giving you the loving, committed, respectful, stable, trusting relationship you need and deserve.
There’s nothing wrong with you. NOTHING. You fell in love and want that joy back. But he can’t deliver. Flush, flush, flush. You are worthy of so much more.
Char,
One of the first ‘dates’ (well, I didn’t even know if we were ‘officially dating’) my AC took me on was on a rollercoaster! I never got off!
Politely DUMP this guy and then go NC. Rollercoaster manouvres are all about making it VERY HARD to get anything solid, the goalposts are always moving, something is always changing, and there you are hopping about wondering what the next move might be so you can get the prize – stability and net the man.
DUMP HIM ASAP. He wants to be ‘friends’ because little do you know, he is lining someone else (or multiple someone elses) in the background. Don’t make the mistake that millions make and think that you’re the only one he’s seeing! Trust me, there is almost ALWAYS someone else in the background!
The question here isn’t what’s wrong with you. The question is why someone like you, who probably has a lot to offer, is hung up on a loser. I don’t have to know much about you to know that you’re probably WAY too good for a 35-year-old wannabe gangster with crazy unstable relationship patterns.
Let that text to him be your last. You’ve just told him you can’t do this, so don’t do it anymore.
This blog has tons of great resources to help you get away from this unhealthy relationship and start working on finding a great guy who will make you happy. Start doing that, rather than wasting anymore time on someone who has nothing to offer you.
Char, you are doing the exact right thing. You did part 1, telling him you cannot do this again; now you must do part 2: not doing this again! It is hard but gets so much easier. Make a list of what you will do or who you will call when you feel like calling him. (Then, DO THOSE THINGS/CALL THOSE FOLKS.) If he calls, Just Don’t Pick Up. The only reason to do that is that you know that you need to find a Good Guy and the less contact you have with Mess Out Of Control Guy the quicker you will get over him so you can be in something with Good Guy. Now, good luck!! We have all been there!
This is so true.. I know if something’s ambiguous and I don’t know what’s going on then it can’t be right, yet feel overwhelmed and confused when being told things in a mixed way…”please don’t think I don’t want to see you, I’m just going through some things and I don’t know why, but hopefully will see you soon”..and wanting to hear all about somewhere I was going, but just needs some time.
I was then massively confused, thinking..is he being genuine?, I’ve been through things myself and was thinking ok, that’s cool…then thought actually have you just said ‘it’s not you it’s me’…and have felt very confused about it, actually sent a message and said ‘actually if this was what you wanted, it wouldn’t be like this and being messed around isn’t for me’ and he ignored it and after a while I thought was that not very understanding of me! Has messed with my head and emotions a bit, but I think you’re right and there would be no ambiguity if it was the right thing.
I don’t understand why people aren’t just upfront…such a waste of time to not be!..
Been reading some of your articles for a while, you’re so right with everything I read..it’s so easy when I tell my friends things like this, must take my own and your advice…it’s been soo painful! Thanks
I’ve been reading your website for a while as trying to recognise a situation for what it is. You’re so right with it all and
@Ciara – all I’ve learned is that when I’ve been involved with people who are ambiguous/say they’re going through stuff (especially if they don’t know what or why), it has never worked out. It’s almost as though they are leaving themselves an out before they even start – yet they sort of want the candy while they figure it out (or don’t, because in reality, they’re likely very happy being noncommittal). If I dealt with this again, I’d say….well, if you figure it out, let me know. Or, if you enjoy their company, you can be their friends but not romantic partners. Good luck. I totally agree – if people were all straight with each other, and respectful, none of us would be here. 🙂
Thanks Broadsided. I was so silly as read his message after a really late work event and a crazy week at work and just didn’t take it in properly..so just replied saying it was all ok etc..then the next day, was like oh god, actually if he wanted me enough he’d want to see me surely…I was mostly annoyed with myself for replying without taking it in. I
t has all been really painful…and is really difficult when someone presents themselves in one way, then turns out to behave in a different way. I’ve decided that I really have to learn not to just take things at face value when I meet someone. Though I find that really sad, but it’s probably necessary too.:(
Char,
RUN the other direction very fast
and change your number
and go NO CONTACT.
Starr in Cali
Char,
Your hoping something will change with this guy and asking yourself what is wrong with you is not reflection of someone with healthy self esteem.
You outlined some pretty positive qualities about yourself. If you truly believe this, then why are you wasting time with someone who cannot appreciate those qualities?
Your choice to wait to be “chosen” by a man who obviously is an assclown and inept when it comes to making choices, kinda tells me that you might be a bit emotionally unavailable too. Sometimes when we are afraid of true commitment and what that means, it’s easier to adopt the role of victim and chase and wait for other EUM’s that guarantee that we will always BE a victim.
Ask yourself, given your qualities outlined and with you REEEEEALLY believing them, why you would waste your precious time? This hasn’t anything to do with him as much as it has to do with you. Blessings.
Continuing from my first post (see above)…I am accepting to be his friend in hopes that he will change his mind to be with me. Im a lost soul.
No! Don’t!
(^ heartfelt advice from someone who’s been through this)
a) it won’t work – if he’s got you there to lean on and sufficiently open to suggestion to sleep with whenever he feels like it then why would he want a relationship with you?
and
b) you won’t move on, your life won’t move on and you’ll end up feeling very stagnated and unsatisfied all the time.
Char, I have been in exactly this position too and it can’t work! You cling to anything rather than having nothing but having someone offer you ‘friendship’ (and it never is that) when you want a proper relationship is HORRIBLE. You probably feel better now because you got him back and you don’t have to face the end but waiting around for him to decide whether he wants more is absolutely the most soul and self esteem destroying thing you can do. Where would you rather be in six months time? On you way to being over him, happy and with some new direction and hope or hanging around waiting for him to grace you with some crumbs and feeling like you are wasting your time? You mentioned Obama – that is the standard of man you should be wanting a relationship with not someone who shows his pants like a silly teenager. I know it’s hard and I feel for you but find your strength love x
Sorry to hear he’s being a jerk but stay strong. Really No Contact is the best way for things to pass and heal. A couple of things I have learnt in the last couple of years, I repeat these to myself if I feel like I can’t get someone out of my head that I know in my heart is wrong for me.
1) “You can’t change anyone”. He is showing you who he is and doesn’t sound like a nice person at all to even be friends with
2) “I have enough friends”. I am sure you do too, and friends make you feel better about yourself not worse.
3) “Visualise the future”. I spent 5 years with someone who I knew early on was ambigious in what he wanted and the lengths to which he would commit. He would cancel and change his mind all the time and I thought it was my job to hang around and convince him to give it another go…. wrong!! It just makes you more ambiguous as you are not being true to what you actually want. Back then I could not imagine there was another guy out there for me, not one! But I’ve met loads of different guys since cutting all ties and realising my life would be better alone than lonely whilst ‘being with someone’. Now I can certainly spot the ambiguous guys a mile off and cut it a lot quicker than I would have before finding Baggage Reclaim.
Do yourself a favour – stay strong and do not contact this guy ever again! Fill your life with things you love doing and spend your energy and nights out with good people. Time will pass and you will not know yourself and how good you truly can feel. Lots of love to you xx
Char, he’s your project and you are being a fixer florence of nightingale. Are you trying to re-write the past with this guy, and fix daddy?
Char, you have to ask yourself why you’d let someone toy with you like this. This dude is seriously into mind games, doesn’t know what he wants, and is a boy masquerading as a man. In other words, he’s an assclown. You did good by sending that text. Go NC and try to believe and accept that he really is nothing more than a lot more pain and wasted time. I spent two years trying to get love out of a man-boy assclown. I remember, one time, out of frustration, I suggested to him that we’d probably break up one day. He actually got teary eyed and said, “You were alright.” He said this as if he had long ago known it would end and he was already grieving the ending. Bizarre! What did I do? I decided to ignore the weirdness, stick around for another year and then, forced to near insanity, I had to finally kick him to the curb. If only I’d accepted the signs and cut my losses sooner!
Or Christine, how about, when I really like somebody, I know. Period. So many times I’ve put my energies in to winning them over, I had know clue if I liked them or not!! Lol!! Oy!
Ah! You are so right. I am always thinking in terms of “them” approving (liking) me.. and not whether I approve of them…
Thank you for the reminder to re-wire my brain. Something I am working through in therapy, too. xo
This reminds me of a saying I once heard (or read) – it may even been here on this site, or in the comment sections.
“When a person really likes you – you know, period.”
This post illustrates the fact that there shouldn’t be any guessing or trying to figure anything out.
I’ve spent waaaaayy too much time and energy trying to put a circle in a square. It’s freeing to know we have the choice to either stick around in the fuzzy area, or move on to clarity.
Thanks N. Another eye opening post.
xxoo
To Char…do yourself a favor and run like your hair is on fire!
This is so clear on writing but in real life things can get so confusing! Here I was, thinking I knew my boundaries, not settling for the fantasy virtual future faking this EUM was feeding me, having told him I was out. But then weeks later he contacts me with his usual flattery. So I tell him his words don´t match his actions, that if he says he wants to be with me I understand he wants to BE with me. He says “but I´ve touched myself in front of you” so I reply “but that´s all virtual!! I´m not an ipod!”. And then he suggests meeting in person on monday during his lunch break, to make out.
And stupid me, I agree. When I know that any decent guy will ask me out for a proper date on a saturday night and will not want to just “make out” – I´m not 12!
So now I just want to kick him in the teeth. Is there any way I can still let him know in person I don´t want this ambiguity or should I just not show up?
Lilia,
For what it’s worth, I don’t think you need to let him know anything else about what you want – he gets it already. And there’s not any ambiguity about what he wants! In my ex relationshit I was very focused on trying to get across to him what I wanted, even though it was plain as day that he didn’t want the same (he professed to, when pressed! But I got mixed messages, or at least I perceived them that way. In retrospect his agenda was actually made pretty clear). Thanks to BR, I realised I had to stop trying to make him understand what I wanted/needed, and start trying to make myself understand what I wanted/needed – and that meant flushing him. You may not be 12, but he sounds like he is (he may as well be). I’d say don’t bother your shirt telling him anything (what for?) and no, don’t show up (and don’t feel bad about it cos this guy is taking the piss).If he comes back to ask why you didn’t show, just tell him you remembered in good time that you are not a booty call. (then tell him to eff off and find some other mug!)
Thanks Fearless, of course you´re right… I was thinking I probably jumped at the chance of an in-person meeting simply because it was in-person! As opposed to his usual future faking BS… Which goes to show the truth of turning crumbs into loafs if the guy leads you on long enough!
And he´s 40 but of course he might be 12 mentally. So this is what makes me think that he just doesn´t “get” it, that I have to explain myself to him. But yeah, he must know what I want, he just doesn´t want to give it to me!
So now I´m imagining myself not showing up, just doing something else on monday – it´s not so hard after all. I just hope I can maintain my resolution… sigh!
Lilia
Either he’s a forty year old man who knows he’s taking the piss out of you or he’s a forty year old man with the emotional and relationship capacity of a 12 year old. Do you actually have a preference?! Good luck with that! 🙂
You absolutely DO know what to do you just don’t want to do it. Been there.
Char~ Run! You already know the answer, you are letting this guy distract you from true happiness. Take control of you, put this guy in his place, you will love yourself & your self respect will rise to a new level to where you won’t allow another to treat you in this manner ever again.
@Char – I think people in your position (there are many) are out of touch with reality and have very underdeveloped appreciation of what matters. Im sorry if that sounds really harsh but it’s my view. What kind of future can you really see with any ‘man’ that wears his trousers round his arse? let alone one who is a wanna be gangsta, always broke and living with his mom at 35? At 35 he IS the future, in that he probably will not change and if he does he will not be the same person. Your ideas of manhood need to be challenged and you must start to appreciate ‘getting the job done’ as the most basic male characteristic. He dumped you once and married someone else which tells you everything you need to know about how HE feels about you. How you feel is not really important. Sometimes we fall in love but our crush does not feel the same.
I think women are at a time when they do not ‘need’ a man, so they pursue men they ‘want’. There was a time when a woman’s choice in a man was probably key to her survival and respectability, to chose badly would ruin her life in every possible way. Thats not a good situation. But now that is not the case so women look for what they want and what is romantic/exiting etc. That appeals to our primitive element a bit more and the dangers of indulging our primitive element are minimal in a time of relative decadence.
The balance would be to chase after men who are exiting and thrilling but all the while be aware that it likely has no future – all it is is some fun that sometimes pays off momentarily and sometimes goes bad and hurts for a while either way you know the game your playing. later in life you can settle down.
The reality of this is quite depressing Im sure you will agree.
Once you have met someone you have natural compatibility with and who you have an effortless chemistry and interaction with your ideas and ‘type’ will probably change.
Char,
From how you’ve described this “man” (personally, I’d call him a “boy”), this is a no-brainer to me. YOU need to love yourself more!! Much more!! Raise your self-esteem up high, and you will find that you are no longer attracted to little boys. Become completely occupied on improving yourself (career-wise, physically, emotionally) so you do not have room in your life for boys. Learn how to love your own company. It is okay to be alone. As a matter-of-fact, it is essential to spend quality alone time to really get to loving/knowing yourself. Once you finally know in your heart who you are, you will have a definite deal-breaker list of what you don’t want in a man. You will also find yourself being drawn toward good, solid men. They are out there…
I have been feeling this way for a long time with a guy that is my friend and we constantly blur the lines. This has been going on for years now and now I guess we are FWB. I believe we care for each other and at this point I don’t want to be like “I want you to be my boyfriend” but just kind of know that we have the goal of being with each other in mind as things progress. My question, for anyone willing to offer me some advice is: How do I talk about this with him? I feel like anything I say he might think I’m saying I WANT A RELATIONSHIP, NOW! when I’m really just trying to gauge how each of us feels and wanting to know if he would like things to progress. Is this a dumb question? lol
heather
I avoided that question with the playa ex. Because I knew the answer. I knew it would be more ambiguity or straight up lies. Or that he would tell me the truth (I don’t want a relationship with you) and I would have to DO something.
You sound like you DO want a relationship now. Is that really so outlandish? There is no way to ask “Do you want to be in a relationship with me?” without saying “Do you want to be in a relationship with me?”. Your hints are not going to get you there. We say that men are poor communicators but so are we if we think hinting, or being affectionate, or being nice is the same as spitting it out in words that any child could understand.
Ask.
Heather
“at this point I don’t want to be like “I want you to be my boyfriend” but just kind of know that we have the goal of being with each other in mind as things progress.”
How do you know this? Has he said it? I was asking the same questions and assumed that time and growing familiarity and affection equalled progress, but it didn’t. My ex-EUM/AC could switch it on and off when he felt like it. Friend, lover, old married couple, nothing, resetting all the time. I thought things just ‘happened’, but he was in control. How fun (and cold and heartless) it must be to choose what use someone is to you from day to day! I wonder if a lot of FWB situations are similar. If they hang out like friends sometimes and are not only booty calls, doesn’t that take the reset button?
So my thoughts are, if you don’t know how to discuss it with him and you are in the dark after this length of time, it isn’t copiloted and never will be. Not only is your friendship blurred, but also your own boundaries. You don’t want him to think you want a relationship and there’s your answer – he doesn’t want a relationship. You may have tried to tell yourself you’re cool with that, but why should you be? Why should he tell you what you want? Don’t be infected by his ambiguity.
You could also look at Natalie’s ‘Sitting on the fence’ post:
“Decisions take courage as does admitting when something isn’t working for you and doing something about it – when you sit on the fence, you never truly have a stake in anything and you at best have a half life.”
What do YOU want to happen? Why isn’t this valid? Talking will not change things, adopting a position and acting on it, as well as stating it clearly, will. I’ve seen elsewhere on here that these things will literally go on forever if you let them, because he has no reason to change things. Do you really want this day to day, dead-end reality?
Sorry Heather, I think I misread that sentence and you’re saying you *want* to know you have the goal of being with each other.
By the way, it is not a dumb question! I just think he’s dumb for messing you around.
“I was asking the same questions and assumed that time and growing familiarity and affection equalled progress, but it didn’t. My ex-EUM/AC could switch it on and off when he felt like it.”
Yep. I’ve made that mistake and came to your same conclusion:
“So my thoughts are, if you don’t know how to discuss it with him and you are in the dark after this length of time, it isn’t copiloted and never will be.”
At this point, the only option if you don’t want to be FWB is to have a talk with him – but know what YOU want. If a guy won’t talk about it – my EUM didn’t like to talk about it – well, there is your answer.
Heather,
Do not ask. If he wanted more, he would have told you. He’s happy with your FWB status. If he wasn’t, he would stop it. The bottom line, he’s controlling the situation by being silent. Don’t listen to what he says, listen and see what he’s not saying.
The potential you see in him and even in your feelings for him, is all based on just that…potential.
It’s a fantasy you’ve created because the truth is that being sexual and physically intimate with a friend cannot keep the friendship in a happy platonic place for most women. We begin to see more in the guy and begin to wonder…hope and act like he will see and want more in us.
It’s not gonna happen. Want to test it? Stop being physical with him. Take a break and see how much he pursues you. And if he does pursue you, see how many times each “I like you” leads to sex.
In other words, he likes you because you give him sex and he doesn’t have to answer to you (while he proactively searches for the one he is willing to answer to).
Do yourself a favor and find the courage and the strength to remove him from your life. If you won’t let a female friend screw you over, why are you allowing a male friend to?
Heather, if this has been going on for years and hasn’t progressed to a relationship by now it’s because one or both of you doesn’t want it to. Why should you not want a relationship right *now*? (don’t you think you’re worth it?) – why do we imagine that expecting a relationship from a man we are sleeping with is asking for too much?! It’s not asking too much – it’s the bog basics.
Once we fall into this FWB situation we have already expressed to the guy what we are willing to accept, and have already given him our own appraisal of our worth. He is unlikely to upgrade you to a full relationship – being FWB and waiting for the relationship to be offered is, as Nat says, the fruitless task of trying to get a relationship through the back door.
I also agree 100% with Grace – I didn’t want to press my ex on the ‘relationship’ issue because I already knew the answer. If we ask and get the answer we don’t want to hear then we are faced with the responsibility of doing something about it. I was too fearful to do anything about it – so I never pressed him or asserted my own needs and wants. It wasn’t good!
To sum up – I think you should be brave and tell him what you want without feeling guilty or needy about it (it’s not needy to want a bona fide relationship with the man you’re sleeping with!), though I suspect if he wanted the same thing you wouldn’t need to be asking, so brace yourself and be prepared to stand by what you know you want – does any woman really want a FWB relationship? Why are you agreeing to this situation? This is the question for you to explore. If you think this is the route to a relationship with this guy sometime “in the future”, when years have already passed (are you not already experiencing “the future” with this guy?), there are many here who have tried it and will tell you it’s a fool’s errand.
I am struggling SOOO hard right now to not contact the X EU boyfriend. Every fiber in my being knows he won’t commit and to top it off this makes twice he has disappeared on me.
He is the classic example set forth in the book with the exception of having
followed through on promises. Of course the really big ones were out there
in the future and we all know what that means.
His ego is enormous and should I contact him it would only stroke it and he
still wouldn’t want me.
It just feels like I’ve lost my best friend “again”, we did everything together.
Please girls help me, we all have felt this pain, and we all have this struggle
in common.
God, this hurts so bad
Co-dependency is a helluva drug.
Recognize the difference between wanting someone in your life and needing someone in your life. One is realistic, the other is a substitute and excuse for taking responsibility for our own happiness.
You’re not hurting, you’re going through withdrawals.
This is a great opportunity for you to discover yourself, get some new hobbies or revisit some old ones that perhaps you dropped to get with this guy. Never lose sight of who you are with or without a man. A man can add value to your life, but he is not your life.
Think carefully about your life, your family and your real friends that love you no matter what. And more importantly think about who you are at your core. What makes you happy (outside of a man) and get on the path of taking steps to live your life in a meaningful way. Don’t wait for a man to come along and give you purpose (or take it away). You already were given purpose from the day you were born. Time to tap into it. 🙂
Susan, I’m sorry you feel so bad. I’m in the same position as you are right now and I know how much it hurts. I’m in the early stages of NC and there have been many times I’ve felt desperate and wanted to communicate with him. But after reading Nat’s blog and other reader’s comments I know its right to let go. It’s extremely difficult, but we need to move on and stay away from people who cause us pain and don’t value what we have to give. Keep reminding yourself that he won’t commit and refuse to stroke his ego anymore. If you contact him nothing will have changed and you will have to start all over again. Take comfort in the fact that many of us are feeling the same way. Keep reading BR and remember you are worth so much more than he can offer. If I can do it so can you, xx.
Susan
Im now 10 weeks NC it seems like an eternity, I remember in the early days how I longed for him to contact me because I was dying to contact him – like you he was my ‘best friend’ and felt I could not bear to be without him. I didn’t ring not because I’m super strong willed but because i’d been reading the posts on here and had to face up to some harsh truths.
In the 6 years me and my married AC had been together I had lost all regular contact with my friends, everything in my life had become about him and me being together. I had lost ‘me’ and become preoccupied by ‘us’ and once that disappeared I was basically left wondering what the f**k to do with myself. Thats when the obsessing hit home and I was so tempted to ring him just out of
a) sheer boredom
b) not wanting to deal with the fact that I was now on my own again and what that might mean
c) not wanting to deal with why I had gone for another EU/AC and allowed him to future fake.
It was much easier to stay in the moment and hope to continue the ‘relationship drama’ in the present. I had one fall off the NC wagon, luckily very early on where he told me yet again that ‘he wasn’t able to have a relationship with anyone and how could he love me when he didn’t love himself’ blah blah blah. I was SO annoyed with myself for giving in and ringing him. The high of being in contact again didn’t even last the length of the phone call, but the anger at myself for being such a fallback girl and ringing him lasted for at least 2 weeks.
DON’T CONTACT HIM! nothing will have changed, in time it will get better and you will begin to slowly change your feelings towards this AC. I still think about my MM/AC every day but its now more about how I let myself down by allowing myself to be his fallback girl rather than ‘I wonder if he will ring’
It will hurt for a while but it will get easier little by little, I remember feeling jealous of my friend who was 2 months NC in front of me! Soon that will be you – stay strong – best wishes.
This is a great response. Congrats on being 10 weeks into NC. I have been trying to keep NC for two and a half months. (That’s 10 weeks), but I have had a few slip-ups. The MM I was involved in has, over the last few months, gone from being my lover, to my friend, to not much at all. He changed his behavior when his wife gave him an ultimatum in October (and almost left him). He used to have tons of women on the side, in addition to a porn addiction. The arrangement started out as an open marriage, but it went horribly awry. Its been hard disentangling myself from this. The MM has been seemingly cold and rejecting ever since his wife agreed to take him back. I’ve been hurt and frustrated by this, and took it upon myself to try NC because it felt humiliating to write him and only hear back from him 1-2 weeks later (a change from our usual daily exhange).
But, reading this post clarifies things. He’s been cold and distant, but its a blessing in disguise. He’s been unambiguous. He used to be all about the push/pull… went dark for a day or three, but then would make me feel like I was the only person who understood him. In reality, he was deeply confused, as was I. He’s stopped “needing me,” and as rejecting as it feels, I know that its because he’s trying to straighten out and get clarity on what he needs. It would be foolish for me to think he’ll want me again; I know that I was just part of a very confused time for him. Its take me 10 weeks of pseudo-NC to realize that the kindest thing he can do for me is to leave me alone.
Distancing sucks. It feels rejecting, no matter how you go about it. But, often, its the only way to move on.
@Char,
The only thing wrong with you is that you don’t trust your intuition and you probably believe that its okay for women to put up with any type of behavior in order to catch a man. Being attractive or intelligent has nothing to do with being able to find a person who is willing to be in a healthy relationship with you. I am extremely attractive and could have been a brain surgeon, but still have unhealthy relationships. You also mentioned you being able to “get what you want”. Perhaps what you want isn’t a healthy relationship. This guy is using you as a convenience. He will continue to use you as a convenience as long as you allow him to. He is not going to change for you or anyone else because this is who he is. He has character flaws and they are not indicative of who he is with at any given time. Murderers murder people, snakes bite, dogs bark, and inconsiderate people who don’t want to be in healthy relationships will not be in healthy relationships. It has nothing to do with you or what YOU want or think you want. We only live once (unless you believe in reincarnation) and you are wasting your time and months and years of your life with someone who will NEVER want a healthy relationship with you or anyone else. Do yourself a favor and free up your schedule for someone who wants a healthy relationship or who is not a user.
And don’t “TELL yourself” you’re not going to do it again. DON’T do it again.
Thanks Angela! And yes you are very attractive via your pic.
This is such an important concept and one we’ll never learn from experience until we do have a good relationship. I remember my first few relationships being filled with drama and uncertainty. At the time, it was almost fun. My best friend was a drama queen, and it seemed almost normal to sit around and wonder about what he meant when he said or did whatever. In the long run though, it got to be old, and an awfully stressful way to live. For a while, I even swore off men, if that’s how they were going to be.
When I met my first husband, I was astonished at how easy it was. I didn’t have to worry if he liked me as much as I liked him, I didn’t have to wonder if he was really my boyfriend. It all just seemed to flow easily and naturally.
After his death, when I started dating again, that feeling of ease became the barometer for potential relationships going forward. If a guy seemed unsure or flakey, I just turned him loose, figuring he’d come back if he was really interested. There were a few times when it really hurt to do that, because I’d built up some pretty big air castles about what a fantastic guy he must be.
Looking back, I’m glad I did put up with the minor, short-term pain, because it meant that I was available when I met my current husband. Again, with him it was easy and unambiguous.
Even though there may be some excitement that comes with the drama of “he loves me, he loves me not,” it’s probably not the way that any of us want to live long-term. And don’t forget, the longer you waste time with the guys who string you along, the more you risk missing out on the one who will treat you the way you deserve to be treated!
Well put, Christina. It shouldn’t be a guessing game. You should both want to be there, and do everything required to make it work. I’m going to do the same, now that I’m getting ready to date (once I figure out where the men are!). As soon as I sense there’s ambiguity or game playing, I’m bolting.
Exactly – me, too.
There is one exception that I dealt with the last time – the Future Faker – first time I’ve had a guy like that. Beware. Let time make things unfold. the FF came on so smoothly, and so sure, and “knew what he wanted – a serious relationship leading to a lifetime together”, that it was a broadside (thus my name here) when he bailed abruptly. They can fly beneath the radar because they seem unambiguous.
Thanks for pointing that out, Christina. I´ve actually had that same experience as well, my first long term boyfriend was like that, everything was so easy! He wanted to be with me, I with him – very simple. He once mentioned our being together felt like “harmony”. I´m dreaming a lot about him, I think my unconscious knows that is what I should look (or wait) for in a relationship.
The partners I had after him were a lot of drama and ambiguity, even my 10 year marriage.
I just thought I´d never have a relationship like that again, your experience is giving me hope!
Char
Presumably YOU are not of a similar age & still living w yr parents wearing yr pants around yr ankles as a wannabe gangsta? My suggestion is that you follow up that text with a short phone call ASAP to get your actions & self worth in sync ie FLUSH, go full NC & then (when yr ready), UPGRADE to a REAL man!
And if you feel it would help to clarify your thoughts, before you make that call, write down all the reasons this situation & guy is not working or suitable for you. You don’t need to EXPLAIN that to him but it might help to strengthen your resolve. There’s losts of top notch women out there dating losers. Don’t waste yr time – & heart – being one of them!
Good post Nat! Or as the old saying goes ‘never make a priority of someone to whom you are only an option!’ 😉
Char, Do not engage with this guy EVER! Major red flags all over the page. He dumped you two years ago, he was married for only three months…WHY? only three months cos his wife could not stand living with his assclown behaviour and constantly telling him to pull up his gangsta pants! He is out looking for a soft place to land and you ARE NOT cotton wool land. He is broke and living with his mum, before you know it he will be wanting to move in with you and borrow money and leave you in one almighty mess. You deserve better than this!! You know what to do…flush!
Feeling kinda achy. There was this guy, he flirted with me, we became friends, it was ambiguous. He was my professor. But I am in my 30s and him not much older and single so it was okay. I didn’t know whether it was ambiguous because we COULDN’T start something or because of his nature. So when class finally ended I offered my #. Then he gave me his email and asked me to let him know how I did in the class. So I thought that was his way of saying “contact me after the final grades are in.” So I emailed him and said if he wanted to get together I would be into it. And he said he was leaving town until September. AND then he said to let him know how I do on my summer class (which ends early July). So I was wondering wondering wondering, why did he say that? Just being professorlike? Or to get NML’s famous “ego stroke/shoulder to lean on”? AND WHY DID HE NOT MENTION THAT when we were talking 1-on-1 for an hour after the last class? Or the class before that (same thing?) OR when I initially gave him my contact info?
So I am feeling stung again about that tonight. I know I am not crazy and didn’t make up the flirting or at least the friendship – we would hang out after class like I said for an hour, did that like 5 times.
Any thoughts. I know I am just poking a sore tooth here. I know I am not going to contact him – like the Beatles say, “You know my name, look up the number.” He knows where to reach me if he wants me, I’m done extending myself. But like I said, I just feel a little mopey. But I am making an effort to meet someone new.
Ann, Profs do this ALL THE TIME because they can. I know it hurts but don’t waste your time. Think about what he’ll be doing next term with all the new intake. Sorry, I know that is harsh but would you want to be in a relationship with someone who encourages ambiguous, flirtatious exchanges with his students? And how sure are you he doesn’t have a wife or girlfriend tucked away?
His ‘let me know how you get on in exams’ emails are a way to keep the contact and keep you hooked. But unless you get ‘lets go out on some dates and see if we are compatible for an exclusive committed relationship’ emails then I would run as far and as fast as you can. I’m really sorry but just from the information you have supplied it sounds like a load of manipulation and disappointment waiting to happen.
Thanks, Polly! Loved this:
~~~His ‘let me know how you get on in exams’ emails are a way to keep the contact and keep you hooked. But unless you get ‘lets go out on some dates and see if we are compatible for an exclusive committed relationship’ emails ~~~
I thought that was rotten of him. At least his behavior showed his true colors.
Ann
Sounds like a one-way crush to me. You see potential relationship, he sees friendship with flirtation. It doesn’t necessarily mean anything (I flirt with my brothers, nieces, dogs) unless there is follow up. Which would be a date..
Just been through this myself with the excrush – why does he walk me home, why does he text me, why does he call me, but no date? Why do we only see each other at church or after church (similar to you and your professor – at class or after class). Because we are just church-friends.
The ambiguity was in my mind as I stressed and anaylzed the burgeoning friendship. The excrush has not been disrespectful or taken advantage, been inconsistent or let me down. It doesn’t sound as though the professor has taken advantage either. There is a slight imbalance of power with you as he is your professor but you are both adults.
If it really bothers you, Nat’s Dreamer book may help you. From that, the penny dropped for me – the excrush treats me no worse and no better than he does his other friends, male and female. Also, as I got to know him I realised he’s not perfect and that he’s just a another human with flaws like me. Ironically, once I accepted it was just friends we’ve become closer and recently crashed through the touch barrier – so in that sense I AM GOING WITH THE FLOW. I’m comfortable with that as he behaves well (very well) but I wouldn’t recommend it if there’s sex, future faking or other shady behaviour. Don’t go with that flow.
I understand the moping – keep up with your friendships, make new friends, go out, take up dance classes, French,whatever. Maybe this is God’s way of telling you to – get a life (I mean that kindly). When our lives become empty of friendship, joy, activity there is a lot more room for fantasy and over-investment. The answer isn’t to find a man to plug the gap, it’s to fulfil ourselves.
It might be that you and the professor could remain friendly but only if you don’t treat it like a weird dating game – keeping track of who calls who or how often etc. You would have to genuinely treat him like your other friends, with maybe a little wise caution because he is a man rather than a woman. If you can’t do that, it may be as well to let it drop.
Hi, Grace. I appreciate the advice – I think it is basically sound. However, I think you are being too forgiving of my professor / your crush and not nurturing enough towards yourself (you are being fine to me, perhaps more generous to me than with yourself!)
A man who flirts with a woman and seeks out her attention but doesn’t want a relationship is feeding off her attention and emotion. I would ask yourself what you are getting out of this friendship. Once, a girl I used to work with from another country, who was very modest and unassuming, not the kind of girl you’d notice on the street or anything, but really had her life together, and eventually happily married, advised me to let go of my friendship with an ex-boyfriend. I didn’t understand why she would suggest that. She said that he had experienced my whole heart and decided that I wasn’t worth having a relationship with. She said that by staying friends with him – no matter how smart funny etc he was – I was basically indicating that I agreed with him (because friends have shared values).
It took me a while to come around to her way of thinking, but I pass the words on to you so you can have them in the back of your mind like I did.
So my main point was – don’t let these men off the hook, like they are totally innocent and we read too much into the situation. They really ARE flirting – and flirting is the implication that there is more to be had – and if there ISN’T more to be had, it’s not the worst thing in the world, but it is not a sweet great thing.
All best to you, and thanks for your help with this.
Ann,
my ex EUM was one of my tutors in my final semester at university. He’s now a Prof. Yes, we were both adults (he even used that phrase). He came on very hot but did not want to be seen in public with me or have me meet anyone he knew, he said because of our student/teacher status. I told him that we’d see if that was a reason or an excuse once I had sat my finals. The minute I sat my final exam he turned cold and distant. I called him on this; he just back-peddled… long story, but typical EUM stuff. We parted on very bad terms. Nearly a year later we started up again, which was my doing, and I continued in a horribly ambiguous situation for years; all on his original terms; and the power imbalance remained as it had been from the outset. Even years into the relationshit, when he was doing his ‘distant’ thing, I got exactly the type of emails you describe.
I like what your friend said to you. I tried many times to end it with this EUM while still trying to remain friends/friendly with him; this never sat well with me for the very reason you say – I felt I was in cahoots with him that I was not worth more from him. Horrid.
Re the crush/ex crush thing; I am kinda with you on that. I am open to persuasion but am not yet convinced that it’s all innocent friendliness with these guys. I also think that trying to be ‘just friends’ with a guy you fancy/have crush on sounds like awful hard work! (but, err, ten years with/not with EUM was harder work!)
“I felt I was in cahoots with him that I was not worth more from him. Horrid.” OMG, this hits the nail on the head. I hadn’t articulated this to myself but this statement really helps me get why I feel so bad that I allowed myself to keep ambiguously engaging with the AC long after our defined relationship was over.
Hi Grace,
I’m curious about your statement of going with the flow, and crashing through the touch barrier, with the ex-crush. Does this mean that he is still a crush, rather than ex-crush? Is there still ambiguity there, in your mind? Are you holding out hope? If so, I’m wondering if it would be helpful to you to finally quash that ambiguity once and for all by discussing your feelings with him. What do you think?
If your goal is to really reset your thinking to having him be purely a church friend, I’m wondering what the crashing through the touch barrier thing is all about.
…sorry, I didn’t finish my thought properly. What I’m wondering is, if he sensed you growing cooler and pulling back, and if he upped the ante by introducing touch into your dynamic?
I know this is something I’ve experienced, including with guys who’ve rejected me outright: when I start to adjust and step back, they have an uncanny habit of doing something to lure me closer — be it stepped up email contact, more touchy stuff, etc. Pretty classic push-pull scenario. I don’t even know if it’s done at a conscious level, but it can be confusing to be on the receiving end.
tea cozy
It was me who touched him first. He responded. It was nothing really – but yes I did like it.
You are right, discussing my feelings would help. I’m still bad at that. It would clear up the ambiguity. Thing is, am I ready to have it cleared up? It’s something we just have to do and then deal with the consequences. Not drive ourselves mad trying to think through: if he says a, ill say b, he if says b, I’ll say c, then we will do this, and if that doesn’t work blab blah blah. We have to believe we can handle it. Can I handle it? Sometimes, often I think, the ambiguity suits us.
AGH I can’t keep analysing this! I feel much happier since I cut that out.
Hi Grace,
Interesting that a few others picked up on the same sentence. It just seemed to me that he’s not an ex-crush if there is still this much notice of the interaction between the two of you; whether you or he initiated the touch doesn’t matter, it’s that it resonates so deeply for you. It’s like you’re still in the movie theatre in junior high, or hell, in one’s 40s after a long period of no dating, when even a brush of the hand sends tingles.
You’ve advised a lot of women to change jobs, or churches, to clear space in their hearts for someone new, and not be constantly around someone who keeps the heart hooked – has it come to that? Is there some way you can distance yourself – for yourself? I mean who cares if he hasn’t been disrespectful. That doesn’t make it any less hard on you to be around him if you still kinda want to jump his bones.
I’m musing aloud here, and genuinely asking – not desperately trying to have you see some kind of light. What do you think?
Hi Grace,
I have kind of the same concerns as the others. The more you describe your friendship with the ex-crush, the more it sounds kind of lack classic 2-sided emotional unavailability stuff.
I played this game with my first EUM/AC for a year. We were supposedly “friends,” but I actually had a huge crush on him and I kept waiting for him to realize he liked me back. Sometimes he would take steps seemingly in the relationship direction, and then sometimes he would take steps away from that direction, but he always wanted to hang out with me, always called me, etc. The more I felt quietly rejected by him, the more he transformed in my mind into this unattainable ideal.
Finally, we ended up in a relationship, and the whole relationship continued just like that: sometimes he would be really into me, sometimes quite blasé, and me always pining for something more concrete. The whole thing was a huge waste of time, and very damaging to my self esteem.
I hope you’re being true to yourself, and not pretending you’re more capable than you are of handling a friendship with this guy.
And sometimes, Grace, you can just enjoy a relationship with a man, with intimacy, with no sex or romance or any other than that, really love him and him love you, and have a true friendship. What is that, Agape love? Just stay in the moment. And enjoy it for what it is. Practice your emotional availability on a man who is safe. You don’t have to “fall in love” with him. Just love him. As a friend. And then, when one comes along who is interested in more, you can be more open to love him, in the full context.
Thanks everyone. I WILL talk to him. Things have escalated today (hand holding, yes it’s like school!) so I feel I can say something without him going “Wut?” I can’t let us both sleepwalk into something undesirable.
I won’t switch church. I have blossomed here. People (not just him) have taken a genuine interest in me and I have made several female friends. I am not that vulnerable that I need to run away. I know that it’s appropriate in some situations but it doesn’t apply here. He is not a bad guy. What’s really been holding me back since the beginning is the age difference (at least I’ve now established what that is) and that I’m divorced (which he doesn’t know yet). It’s nothing he’s done.
Other than the wild fantasizing (which I have stopped) I never genuinely believed that anything would come of this. And I know from experience I’m quite capable of holding people at arm’s length. But now it’s time to stop trying to control this solo and find out what he thinks. FIRST TIME FOR EVERYTHING!
Ann,
I fell in love with my Math Professor. Brilliant, accomplished, older, wiser, and as
NML tells us being smart does not mean relationship smart. I think I was in awe,
put him on the pedestal (and as NML reminds us they are not that special-knock them off). I think now, many years later with a reconnection with the math professor, he was a father figure. And these professor men with the young lovely
smart hardworking women love the ego stroke. But unattached in his 30″s is self absorbed, self centered and from my experience, it is what it is, and will forevermore be. For your own sake my humble advice, do not proceed. Do not
tempt fate. Do not fall in love with him. If you do, it will be all about his ego, not you. You’ll ultimately leave him. And with any luck, not run into him again many years later…
Hi Ann,
Sounds ambiguous, so according to this article you have your answer.
The thing to focus on is how much you really don’t want a prof who encourages/allows students to wonder about his intentions. I’m a PhD student who is a bit older, so many young profs are my age, and I was frankly shocked when I saw the behaviour of these dudes toward their students. They loooove the attention. I don’t much care that they flirt with students where the age difference isn’t much; it’s still off; the power dynamic of the classroom means they need to consciously discourage any kind of ambiguity that way.
From your post, I thought it sounded as though he was trying to give you a polite brush off. I’m gone all summer; yeah, let me know how it goes with that – that’s telling you he’s not available and then just being “polite” – making it sound as though you’ll still be in touch, IF you initiate anything, because he won’t. Who knows, it could be the other way, he could be trying to keep you hooked, but I agree w Grace that I think a lot of the ‘reading in’ is on your part.
I met two cute profs in the last couple weeks. One emailed, asked me to coffee, talked to me for two hours, before confessing he was being a “deceitful shit” and telling me he had a girlfriend. The other was one I started a conversation with at a coffee shop a couple days ago, we hit it off talking immediately, and he basically mentioned his (lucky!) girlfriend (who is herself a prof … ) within the first few minutes. Funny how the one worth having is the one who behaves decently right up front.
I had a moment of the usual “I suck, he totally shut me down, etc” when the second cutie left, until I realized I had been attracted to a good guy who wasn’t rejecting me by making things clear, he was being respectful.
One of these days I’m going to chat up one of these good guys who is actually unattached. And they will probably, quite unambiguously, ask for my number and ask me out! And so will a good guy with you!
– Oh, one last thing. I have cute young male students hang out to talk to me for 30 minutes after class and sometimes it’s all I can do to say “I have to go now” for them to break it off. They might think I’m into them but I am not. There are other cute male students who would flatter me deeply if they came on to me, but I would contain any, any reaction to that.
Your story also reminds me of the thing I had for a therapist of mine and in hindsight it was very wrong of him not to shut that down immediately. Instead he subtly encouraged it (all within the rules of professional conduct, though, of course) and my crush dragged on for months. I was humiliated, then furious, over a year later, when I realized what had happened.
Magnolia
I DID think a lot of the reading was on Anns’ part, but since Ann divulged he was a jerk teacher, I’m thinking – JERK.
But whether it was just a crush or whether he is a JERK, there seems to be no good reason to continue it. No ambiguity there.
Re therapists – I’ve had two male therapists who found me physically attractive. The first one didn’t take advantage but he was so CAREFUL with me, he never said anything so I may as well have been talking to the wall. So that was a waste of money. The second one put it on the table, we acknowledged it, and moved along. It was a safe environment for me to learn that men can talk emotion, understand emotion, and still be strong, masculine and not exploit it.
It’s natural for men and women to find each other attractive. At my age, and with all the therapy I’ve had, I MUST SURELY be able to handle that without crying like a baby. And, no, I’m not making a pointed remark at anyone when I say that. I say it to myself. I. Can. Deal. With. It. Whether that means NC, or calling them out, or blanking them, withdrawing or, as LoJ says, being friends (though I still wonder about male-female friendships), or progresing a relationship. I trust myself to call it. I heard an interview with a high wire walker who doesnt’ use safety equipment. He said “My parents told me when I am on the wire I must be myself. If I fall I catch myself. I don’t trust anyone else or anything else”.
For years I would not speak to men. I decided they had nothing to do with me. Now I accept they make up half the population and other than the nunnery, I’m going to have to interact with them as equally-flawed, equally marvellous fellow humans who do NOT have power over me. Of course, no jerks allowed either!
When single, I always made it a point to not talk to men first. That was my way of playing “hard to get”. If they called, I’d return the call–so, you see, I wasn’t playing hard to get in all scenarios (though calling back is a mistake, esp. in the early stages).
If I had to do it all over again, I’d have smiled more. I wasn’t a grouch. But I was serious. Hence, all people took me seriously. What did I always hear? “So-and-so likes you, but he’s too afraid to say anything.” Which, btw, is b.s., too–those same guys were, very often, e.u.–they just wanted to find out whether I was interested, so that they could keep me on ice–that is, until they saw a threat. But when they DID see a threat (someone else being interested & showing interest), they would do NOTHING. When they saw me DATING, then they’d up their act and CALL. It was so screwed up!
So I think smiling more & being at ease with yourself is the key. And dating for FUN.
I, too, look very young for my age (early 40s but look 26, at most).
I have a problem right now: how to deal with a dad st my son’s school who is majorly hitting on me. Every time we see each other (usually at school events), he smiles at me and goes out of his way to talk to me. Out in the open. He doesn’t even care if his wife sees sometimes!
How to deal, please.
BTW, the wife hates me, and talks badly about me behind my back. I have called her on it, though! The rest of the school year was awkward, as a result.
Wanted to clarify: 2nd paragraph: if the EU guys saw someone interested, they’d always cock-block & then DO NOTHING. They’d screw another guy over & then not even ask me out! It pissed me off!! If they saw me dating, then they started calling, and right away.
5th paragraph: this dad smiles for a long time–he stares & smiles. And has winked at me, too (once, when he thought another friend/mom wasn’t looking).
“Unambiguous people have actions and words that consistently match over an extended period of time meaning that it’s a lot easier to recognise someone who is a fly-by-night.”
This is my future goal, to be aware of consistency over an extended (key word) period of time. I think the last guy cured me from being overexcitable about possibilities, and of believing too soon. Some guys are manipulative and set out with an intention to use; some genuinely believe they can be in a relationship, then their EU demons come out and they radically shift gears and they and it become ambiguous….and some actually do mean what they say, communicating clearly about whether they want or don’t want to be in a relationship. There is no way to know which it is until enough time goes by…..and ’til the relationship is challenged. This can be by outside stress and the way the person copes (stress tends to bring out the worst), or can be caused by a woman speaking what she wants which freaks the ambiguous guys out. And do we really want to be with men we cannot speak freely to?
I think I have nearly always been in ambiguous relationships. They have taken too much time to try to understand; too many journal entries wondering WTF. Totally agree when the article says it is (and should be) normal for us to express how we feel, especially as things become more intimate.
Oh Char. This man-child is using you as Back-Up Girl. He will not suddenly combust into a perfect boyfriend; the sheer fact that he dumped you, hooked up with someone else, married her then left her, now chasing you again, he knows he’s got you wound his little finger and he WILL do this stunt again.
Erase him hunny, your happiness does not lie with this idiot.
Love and kisses from LDN xx
I love how you just put it out there and force us to really take a look at ourselves and the non-relationships that we are in. It is 2 a.m. in the morning and I am up reading my email and as I read my email – I get a call from a guy that we are so totally not seeing each other… haven’t been together in more than 6 months – basically broke up because we were never together – a very ambiguous relationship – never knew where I stood, always calling at the last minute, never wanting to go on a real date (because of work) but could always find time to f**k- usually around this time…First, he says he misses me, then he says he loves me and all of this but no change in his actions…Of course he then wants to be friends but this is with the option to leave the door open for sex….Chemistry was there but commitment wasn’t – my favorite line that he use to use was – I am working like this so that I can retire soon and be straight – all you have to do is hang in there (mind you – this is a year and a half of seeing each other -future faking)…Never met his friends or family – I can truthfully say I had to really step back from the situation and look at it for what it really was – booty call at best!
CODE RED! …. You deserve better…
After 18 months of lies.. Broken promises.. Moving the goal posts… Being isolated from my friends and family, being controlled….. On my third attempt I stuck to my guns and said enough is enough. For my own sanity and my family’s…..Could not endure anymore pain.
Hasten to add he did not like it…. It fluxuated from being stalked daily, abusive emails… To sitting outside my house until I called the police. I had messages of undying love.. His bag was packed and he was all ready to leave immediately. . Whilst this was going on his girlfriend sat at home totally oblivious to all of this. After four arrests he is now on bail…. My house is alarmed… CCTV…and it is known he is a serial Mr Unavailable… And flips when he loses control of the situation I’m not the first and won’t be the last . .
After continuous harassment I told her…. All my fault apparently… And they’ are still together.
I can’t believe I’ve wasted 18 months of my life….it’s all so stressful at the moment…
These men are asswipes… Be strong and don’t settle for their shit.. Lies.. Games.. We are so much better than that…yes it really hurts… But it will be short lived compared with the hurt if you stick with them ….
I’m in this ambiguous position right now as well. I’m engaged after a two year relationship with someone who was open, honest, kind but clearly not in touch with his emotions at all. Despite this, the relationship progressed in a balanced, intimate way (as Nat says all relationships should). Now he’s not sure, escaped the home we share, won’t communicate and has previously said he is wracked with doubt about the future, if the grass is greener, that I’m not the perfect woman he is looking for. What is clear is that our values are so different – I value generosity, kindness, compassion, and his EU means he can’t feel any of these things. He values gregariousness, sportiness and passion (he’s chasing a feeling), and as I don’t possess these he believes he can get these elsewhere.
The ambiguity is tearing me apart, with me doubting my every move, not knowing how he’ll behave from one moment to the next.
Natalie, I have read your blog for two years and this is my first comment. Every word you write is a godsend. Thank you.
You deserve someone who is absolutely sure about you. I hope you dump this person as soon as possible.
What does that mean, “escaped the home we share”? You do not need someone who makes you feel that you are not what they value. Maybe he does value other things than you; if so, that’s okay for him to do so, but why would you put yourself in the emotional care of someone who doesn’t treasure you?
Just read back your own description of the situation. I think you already know how you feel about the situation. It’s tough and I’m sorry – but it can be up to you to take action on your own behalf.
We moved in after 1.5 years together (and after he proposed). Within weeks of moving in, his doubts surfaced (am I the one? can he wake up to me for the next 50 years? am I enough for him?) – the relationship came real and he was looking down the barrel of a long term commitment (marriage) and has now moved out. He blames me for saying I couldn’t move in with him without a proposal (it’s a deal breaker for me), and now I’m doubting myself. Maybe I should have been more sporty. At the moment I’m hurting at all the memories and the thought he’ll meet someone else and commit to her. He was so lovely up until we moved in together, but couldn’t face the reality of relationships (he is 30 and this was his first relationship).
Hi again Stuck –
Ah, I see. I stopped at the word “escaped” because I hope that YOU don’t feel like your home and your company is something a person might want to escape from. Even if he does. When I was with my ex he never wanted to come over to my place and when he did, I always felt like he wanted to ‘escape’ my domestic, boring life in my domestic, boring place. And because I hadn’t yet worked on my self-esteem I believed – even if I didn’t want to believe it – that he was justified in not wanting my version of ‘home.’
I’m not sure what you mean by sporty – but if you mean athletic and perky – girl, I can relate. My 50 yr-old ex would have liked a blonde, firm triathlete who cooked gourmet breakfasts for him in her underwear then went kayaking and rock climbing and gave him blowjobs while hanging from cliffs. I hiked and camped and canoed and ran with the guy but still never felt ‘sporty’ enough; it was always like he was disdainful that women (me being one) couldn’t keep up with his jock self, but then he couldn’t handle women who actually could whip his ass (like one of my gf’s, who had always done more training on the weekend than him!). But that same gf, a marathoner who now has a competitive cycler for a hubby, once dated a jocky guy who consistently made her feel she wasn’t fit enough. Screw that.
And if by sporty, you just mean sporting, as in you should have been okay with moving in without a proposal, screw that too. You have a right to want what you want.
So now you’re still engaged to a guy who has moved out on you. I really hear you about worrying that he’ll find someone else: I used to have horrible fantasies about the blonde triathlete that would succeed me and the fun times the two of them would have. But it was never about me not being sporty “enough,” just like if a guy doesn’t want me because I’m not “hot enough” when he wants Victoria’s secret models; or even just wants “hotter than me.”
If a guy is still worried he can “do better”, or we are, then the relationship should not progress. I felt worried I could do better with another earlier bf and stayed for six years; he was crushed when I finally decided to try for the better I imagined I could have. Nine years later, I’m still searching and he’s married with kids. It was my immaturity in many ways; so you could say he deserved better…
Magnolia, thank you so much for your response. I read this blog daily (several times!) and your words are always so carefully thought out and kind.
Like your ex, he wants a girl to challenge him in the sporty (i.e. skiing, cycling, general athleticism) sense. I’m not a naturally sporty person, but always willing to give things a go. Inevitably when I did I would not be perfect first time, and this would frustrate him. He has a set image of his perfect girl (shame I only discovered this after he proposed and we moved in together) and I am clearly not it. I do think it’s linked to the fact he is fairly immature – I’m his first partner and he’s 30! He’s very EU (brought up by an EU father), but doesn’t see it.
It seems that as soon as we moved in together he was faced with the knowledge that this relationship was becoming ‘real’ and he couldn’t commit to a lifetime with me when he had so many (in my mind, superficial) doubts. Doubts that I did not have a very exciting past, that I’m mature for my age, that I’m from a foreign background, that I’m not overly gregarious. And yet he still proposed! To say I’m confused is to just skim the surface of my emotions. I’m a mess.
Do you regret leaving your ex nine years ago?
Magnolia,
The end of your post calls to mind these two articles in the Atlantic:
All the Single Ladies,
The case for settling:
Both launched endless discussions (just see the reader’s comments).
Hello everyone. I have been in many ambiguous relationships in my life, I still can’t figure out why I stay, hoping for commitment. However these days I’m cutting them shorter, getting the hang of it…to hang out just for a while for the bullshit to hit the fan.
At the moment I’m with a man who claims he needs to be alone, to care again. Last night he apologized and explained to me why he needed so much time alone.
As he said, “I need some time alone in silence so I can begin to care again, and it has nothing to do with you” Meanwhile he is broke, no car and in debt.
He invited me to a few “Millionaire MInd” seminars which he claims will make me realize how the mind works, which is all fine, and I do believe in being positive. I am retired now from work and self sufficient, but not a millionaire and frankly I am happy with my lifestyle. At this time in my life I’m looking for companionship, uh committed companionship, that is. However having a potential companion tell me he wants to be alone so he can care again…concerns me. My last relationship turned out to be quite ambiguous and led to an open relationship, which I’m not against if it works for some. I want a meeting of the minds, as well as body and soul, without marriage or living together. Now I know what I need and always tell the man I’m involved with, so he knows up front. With all that honesty you would think I should know where I stand with him right? This man is a good man, but I also suspect he might be recovering from his past. What I don’t appreciate is not following up on my dinner invitation, or paying for all our outings. Its been over a year now, and things are still the same…how long does he wishes to be alone? That is rather an extended period of time, I say get on with life, and get one done. The motivational seminars, books, tapes and courses are not helping him out of his slump. What can I do? When we are together I feel good and he’s an excellent companion and good lover, never mistreats me, but never treats me either. Someone out there please reply to this comment. Is this an ambiguous situation? Thank you.
Camilly
Yes
He’s having sex with you (or if not sex enjoying your time) and saying he wants to be alone. The two are incompatible. He is getting what he wants – no responsibility and company when he feels like it. If I didn’t have a heart, I would like that too!
Honesty is more than stating your position. That’s a good thing and many of us, including myself, could do with taking that step. But you also have to honestly face up to the information that comes back to you. It doesn’t have to be in spoken word form. Toddlers and dogs can make their feelings very well known without speaking.
You say he’s a good man, and that he doesn’t mistreat you. I am sceptical. Many of us have become so accustomed to being treated poorly that we think a few crumbs count for something.
Good people don’t jerk you about, especially when you’ve already told them what you want. But whether they are good, bad or indifferent we can’t wait for someone else to act in our interests, we have to do it ourselves. You can finish this.
We are all recovering from our pasts. My breakthrough recovery didn’t happen when I had someone on tap, it happened during SIX YEARS of celibacy (and counting). I’m not saying that’s necessary for everyone but if I’d spent that time continuing to run around in ambiguous relationships I’d still be doing it. Not only that, I think I’d be worse off! The habit gets so entrenched. Never too late though. I would NC him. He wants to be alone? Let him.
Camilla
I’m with everything Grace said. Yes, ambiguous. but there’s nothing ambiguous about what you should do about it – life is too short for this nonsense. Let him have all the alone time he wants – on his own time, not on yours! Ironic that the man with the millionaire mind has to let you pay for everything. He sounds really annoying!
Camilla: To my thinking, this guy doesn’t have both feet in reality. He’s broke and in debt, and is attending get-rich seminars. He sounds like a fantasizer, someone not willing to do the unglamorous hard yards of committing to work (or relationship).
I actually see this as an UNambiguous situation: he is quite clearly not a good match for you. You will be better matched with a man who shares your values, and has similar life goals. There are other men who will make you feel good when they are with you (as this guy does), but who will *also* be more than happy to commit to you. Don’t settle…you’ve worked hard to make a comfortable retirement for yourself. Find a nice mate to enjoy these years with.
Again, an absolutely fascinating article which hits the nail on the proverbial head. My females friends and I talk about issues like this a lot, and the recurring theme that seems to pop up is that women seem to think that the start of a relationship is a “script”… I’ve listened to extremely intelligent women start talking about “the rules” and “the game” rather than just being up front at the start and telling a man what they want (myself included but, thankfully, that is behind me). It seems to be all about “not scaring them off” and “not showing your emotions” in the hope that the game will play itself out and then, magically, the result will be an unambiguous relationship where there is respect on either side. As dangerous as this is, this seems to be the dominant script for women and when they do try to be direct and ask for what they want, there will be rejection (not always though) which is a bitter pill to swallow. So… back to the “rules”, “games” and rollercoasters because it’s better the devil you know.
A healthy dialogue with yourself about what you want and need, as well as an ability to shut out societal messages that you should be in a relationship (ANY relationship really) are key before you start dating as it is all too easy to fall back on scripts that will only end in heartache.
Been there – can’t see why anyone would want FWB.
It’s a total string along and its at their convenience. Why would you deliver pizza or sex ‘on tap’ just to keep an ahole on side? Get rid and get something better that’s long lasting. While he puts it about looking at other women Ha ha ha no wayyyyyy tell him to f…… off!
After a rollercoaster relationship of nearly 3 years and a lot of thinking, debating, discussing with him and now 3 months without him I can finaly put my finger on where it went wrong those first 3 weeks!
Ambiguity. Not so much in the fact he wanted to be with me, he did, but it was a classic case of speeding things up, future faking and the lots.
When I first met him, that first day, I thought I hit the jackpot, and he told me, so did he (red flag number one, because how were we to know after a couple of hours?)
After only 3 days and on our second date, a girl (actualy an acquintance of mine, but I didn’t know about her life that much) came into the bar and he said we had to leave pronto.
He then explained he had just ended it with her 2 weeks ago but she was just a rebound for a former relationship (red flag number two).
I thought he was being so honest, oh waw!
He then told me every single time we met how she stalked him with emails, telephones, every day. He even took her phonecall one time when I was with him, and I actualy had to help a hand to stop the nearly one hour call. After 4 weeks I told him this wasn’t okay anymore, this had to stop. And what? He got angry with me! His new ‘jackpot’ love had to take a step aside for a rebound love that had ended.
I had to be more ‘caring and loving’ and not be so negative, after all, this girl just really loved him and he had moved on only two weeks later so I had to understand. I did, but where did this leave me? I just met the guy and they’re were obviously 3 of us, not 2.
Being caring and loving in my opinion, is having ONE good clean talk about how he didn’t feel the same, and for starters not string this girl around for 8 months.
But I had shown him right there on the spot how I would stick around no matter what. And things in those 3 years off course went off much worse than this scenario.
3 months ago I ended it. I found out that 4 weeks later he’s seeing someone new, he had the nerve to tell me that ‘she knows all about his heartache and grief but what is he to do, stay alone?’ (he sent me an email he wanted me back you see)
This is all drama and ambiguity and chaos and more important, a clear example of a man not seeing his own patterns, not taking responsibily and accountability for his own actions and part of our demise, and just looking for ego stroking and the…
Hi Sofie,
I was amazed when I read your post. I didnt think that anyone else would say the things that my ex-eum/ac said to me the last time we broke up. I have been NC now for about a month and a bit. When we talked for the first time after we broke up, he said the same thing to me, he had started “spending time with someone new” it had only been about two weeks after her broke up with me. I questioned him about that and he said, “you know me, i dont like to be alone, what am i supposed to do, sit at home and watch tv by myself?, besides, who knows what will happen with her, shes already said something that made me never want to talk to her again.” So, i think that this is universal speak in ambiguious relationships. He also does not see his patterns, or take responsibility. The reason i went NC, was because he told me that this new woman was “different” and understood that he and i had a “deep emotional connection”. I finally realized, thanks to this website, and all the great ladies here, that I was really just being set up to be his fallback girl, and thats really all that I had ever been, being on and off for 3 years, the periods that we werent “on”, he had lied to me about seeing and sleeping with others, the whole time, continuing to spend time with and sleep with me, “as a best friend” of course. After 3 years of future faking and broken promises and lies, and certain ambiguity, and attempts on my part at NC on three different ocassions, Im finally doing it. I wont lie, NC is tricky sometimes, this past week has been very hard, I want to know what hes doing, if hes happy with the decsions that hes made, if hes spontaneously combusted into a total awesome catch with the new woman. I just keep reminding myself that me and my kids are whats important now, and that I need to heal and change the way i think in order to make way for the right person to come into my life.
Keep Strong.
HSN
Hi HSN,
that’s what ‘they’ say isn’t it.. and you think ‘yeah he has a point, because I know how hard it is to be alone’ and you go right back into the Florence Nightingale all over again. In the meanwhile they had other cake and after they tried and tasted other(‘s) they start longing for their regular cake again.
I’m not a cake eater myself. I just like my plain cookie and I stick with it.
And if that cookie goes to shreds I build another cookie, I don’t just grab the first one in line ready to be consumed. (sorry for all the metaphores 😉 )
After this has happened to me for the second time, last year it also happened, I feel sorry for all the people involved, including myself, but I grew stronger. He (and those rebounds) didn’t and don’t.
He can say he misses me all he likes, he had his changes and he took them elsewhere. When I see work to be done, I do it. I might call for help, but I do it. If a car is broke you go and fix it. You don’t just buy a new car because the wheel is stuck.
As for ambiguity, the only way I learned this was the case was to write things down, almost to the nth degree, what he said, when he said it, what I said and so on. You let it rest on your table for a few days or weeks and read it again. And you read it like it’s a movie, or a documentairy, as if it’s about somebody else, and that way I learned a lot of truths that never came out of his mouth.
But clear cases of actions not matching words, and pure assclownery.
I still believe he doesn’t realise half the stuff I do.
But it’s not my problem anymore.
I have to work on my own patterns of choosing the wrong man and looking through the wrong glasses of life.
I feel free for the very first time in 3 years.
Love and huggs to you all, S.
whoops a lot of spelling mistakes…’he had his chances’
and ‘I still believe he doesn’t realise half the stuff he does’
sorry for the long comment: but I don’t want to leave the important end out.
looking for an ego stroke and the warmth of a female body.
And for somebody new to say, ‘waw, you’re so honest.’
He’s not. He dripfeeds information like it’s a hobby.
I guess my point is, when you feel you don’t know half of what is really going on, don’t think that this is the case because ‘you weren’t there before he met you’ or ‘you lack understanding or empathy’ or in my case, what I thought, I shouldn’t ‘mingle’.
You should. You should mingle in your OWN life. You know, the one he is treating in a less important way than his own.
So hubby and I filed for divorce yesterday after 9 years together. We joked with our lawyer that this must be his easiest divorce ever as we had sorted everything before meeting him. It was just a matter of having the paperwork done properly. We were both sad, but we both agreed we wanted to move in different directions (literally) and the last six months have been busy sorting our affairs (lots of assets, the dogs custody, change of career etc..) so its fair and none of us loose too many feathers in the process. This post resonated with me, because looking back, nothing was ever ambiguous with the two of us. Every steps we took together, we did by clearly stating where we were and what we wanted. In the few past years, because we clearly wanted to go in different direction, we were like two horses pulling out of synch and going nowhere, hence the decision to split up after mucho negotiating and crying and mourning. And yes, we are planning on staying friends even if we wont live in the same country. Before meeting hubby, I had been on a dating diet for 4 years, focusing on my career, as I was fed up of loosing my time and energy with bs relationships. I must say that looking the road ahead, I am somewhat afraid. Reading a lot of the stories posted by readers bring back memories of the messes I got myself into prior hubby. On the positive side, I have now a standard on what a healthy relationship is, but I am also wondering if becoming single will make me vulnerable and accept some of the horrors I put up with in my younger years.
Isabel, I ended a 9 year common law relationship four years ago. Three months after it ended, I got involved with what turned out to be a man-child idiot. I went from him to a two year relationship with another man-child in a different package. So, I spent three years with go-nowhere jerks who made a big fuss about me then proceeded to put me down and string me along. After the end of my 9 year relationship, I was vulnerable. I’d recommend taking the time to heal and fully recover, and get to know you again before leaping like I did, into another relationship. When you’re vulnerable, sometimes you just want to numb yourself. And that’s the worst thing we can do. Be good to yourself and give yourself time.
Kerry,
Thank you so much for the advice. Maybe I am mistaken, but it seems some of these guys can just smell when you are vulnerable and push all the buttons to get in. I am so sorry you lost so much time on these twats, probably when you felt you had already paid your respect to Assclownville. How many of them do we actually have to put up with in a lifetime? I guess as many as it takes to get the message home about self-love and self-respect.
.
All the changes involve me moving in a new place and starting a new job, and at a time when I would need to get out and meet new people, I just feel to lock myself up in the house in my sweatpants and watch reruns of Battlestar Galactica. Thank goodness I also have a new house to renovate and a big garden to reclaim from the weeds. And I am thinking yoga classes where typical males dont hang out. I just want to rebuild a local circle of nurturing girlfriends before I get back into the big wild world of dating. I am also thinking of letting my calf castrator in plain view on the coffee table in case one of those mindf***ers get any idea of starting messing up with my feelings. This is one farmgirl with plenty of bad memories of life pre-hubby. Too bad it seems I dont have the mental equivalent of my 5000 volts electric fencer which keeps even the most tenacious coyotes away from the sheep. But I am working on it. Thanks to BR, I am starting to gain clarity on why and how I managed to screw myself up so badly in the past.
Ann
Speaking as one who is a prof herself, run like hell! This guy is using you for attention and does not give a damn about you or your feelings. He most certainly has a wife/girlfriend in the background. My ex AC is one of these. This dude will emotionally suck you dry.
Although it is true that men often take a while to figure out whether one is relationship material, I would say that no forward progression along with the continued ambuguity means time to pull the plug. Same goes for any sort of mixed messages. If the dude really gives a rats about you, he’ll be back, otherwise don’t waste your time. I realize that I too am on occasion ambiguous, because while I have doubts about the guy, I enjoy non sexual male companionship. No more. I just let an on line guy go because I was not attracted physically to him at all and, while he said he wanted a committed relationship, most of his life is centered in a city 100 miles away even though he is retired and can travel at will. Ambiguity means it aint working period.
Thanks, miskwa! At least I feel like I didn’t invest anything or lose anything – well, except that one email. I sent 1 email after the class ended and got an ambiguous reply, so will not send more. However, there is always that self-doubt, so it helps so much to get confirmation here that my instincts are correct. Esp from a prof!
I think I need to change my therapist. From the beginning, I said to her “He is a total control freak in the classroom and inconsistent, coming down on people one minute for doing X and the next minute for opposite of X.” During the time I was a student, I wondered whether he was a jerk teacher or a jerk guy. She said I wouldn’t know for sure until class was ended. So I guess all I lost was the pride of sending that 1 email after class ended. Still, I tend to think jerk teacher = jerk guy. What’s your professional opinion? 🙂
The question should be, why do you even like someone who is a jerk teacher?
Ann, in my long-ago college days, I was on the receiving end of this sort of ambiguous attention from professors. It was confusing.
It’s not a pond I would fish in, if I were you; at least not in a student-teacher dynamic. There is the power imbalance (even if you’re no longer in his class, it’ll be hard to shake that pattern. And frankly, there is a culture in some academic environments that enables wolfish behavior by some profs. (Note: I’m not accusing ALL profs of this behavior — just some!). Some of them get a bit full of themselves, having all those eager students lapping up their every word.
You aren’t losing anything worthwhile by walking away from this. Give yourself a pat on the back for opting out early, before things got messy.
What is it about professors! I also fell in love with my professor , but although I am 12 years younger I’m a mature age student so should have known better. Like Ann I was in awe and put him on a pedestal, but I was also flattered that he seemed to single me out for special attention. After two years of betting on potential (me), future faking, ambiguous behaviour (him) I decided to quash the ambiguity and finally asked what I should have at the very beginning. The outcome? More ambiguous behaviour from him. I came to my senses and have ceased contact which is so painful, but the only way out. If I had known what I’ve learned since reading this blog I would have run away as fast as possible. I definitely put him on a pedestal, unfortunately for me he’s still up there. How do you knock them off the pedestal?
Was in this exact scenario for several years. 2 months NC. Door is shut for good (after 100 attempts at NC). This is how I let go after obsessing and being so entangled in such a toxic non-relationship. I got real… very real. Stopped being scared. Fear is a b!tch, but you creat that fear. Recognize the fear… but be fearless any way. It’s all in our thoughts (i.e., I won’t find anyone else… I’m not good enough – it’s all BS, ladies… replace negative thoughts w/ good, even if you don’t truly believe them yet… say it any way).
I thought I’d never get over him. I am. And loving every minute of not being in that crappy relationship. I thought I’d be upset and go into depression when I saw him w/ someone else, I did, last week… and thought nothing other than ‘same man, same character.. different woman… glad it’s not me anymore’. What you think and feel now… is not how you’re going to feel in a few months. It will hurt the first month maybe the 2nd,… but you need to connect w/ other people in your life, get a life, and realize that there’s so many possibilities and opportunities out there… you really have no idea because you’ve been so focused on that dipstick. And when you ‘get it’, you will see him as this little person and almost can’t believe you put him on a pedestal and got so crazy over him. You’ll laugh to yourself… trust me. I feel like I’m on cloud 9… having a blast. Believe me, you will not regret the reward of walking away… feels like heaven, lol… :).
And yet again girl you are Spot On ! It seems that you postings always come at the right time & with the right material!
My warmest thanks from Carson City, Nevada
Thank u NAtalie
Ur posts r wise
I was engagsd
Preparing for my marriage
N I broke up last month
There were many red flags in character
I would like to know ur opinion about stingness
Girls temporary pain is a whole lot better than everlasting one
N being single n not committed with an unhealthy relationship. Is better caz there will always be new options of a better love story
“Girls temporary pain is a whole lot better than everlasting one.”
Amen!
I wanted to weigh in about your comment about stinginess. I am “frugal” and the last two guys I dated I thought were also “frugal”, but there is a difference between being frugal (wise choices in spending) and stingy (they have money, but never pay your way, do not share it much with you, there is not ease there, they are always counting pennies). You can still have a generous heart and be giving while being frugal.
My last two guys were often “stingy”. I think stinginess may be a sign of inability to give of their hearts, either. Neither of mine could, for different reasons, and in different ways.
Char:
As someone who has been there, you are traveling on a one way street (I had to get hit by a bus before I learned that). Don’t wait around for a man that can’t decide if he wants you. Make the decision for him. That’s what I did. Took me four years and it cost me more than I can tell you. Know it’s easy to settle for anything when you are afraid of having nothing, but realize with men like this you end up with nothing anyway. There’s strength in knowing others have been where you are now. Grab your heart and run and give it to someone who deserves it.
Well said FinallyDidIIt,
and I would add, worst than nothing once you realized you wasted mucho time and energy you could have put into your career, having a good time with your friends or family…been there, done that.
Thanks FinallyDidIt!
I absolutey love this! Ambiguious relations LiSTen after 10 yrs of living with a man who is and always be this it’s coming to an end.
I have fought argued cried screamed cursed left returned cut up his clothes been cheated on ignored game played left out and used – 10 yrs.
FInaly it took the worst year of my life to wake me up and leave. I’m selling up and going my own way, don’t get me wrong although I know my decision is the right one, I sit here angry as hell in tears with such regret that I allowed myself to be in this for so long, scared to start again with very little support and a child intow but I’m doing it anyway. RUN. X
Sher, it must have been so unbearable for you to make that decision to leave, especially when your resolve and confidence is bulldozed by mindgames. Takes courage. These ambiguous relationships are so much harder when you live together. Nowhere to run when you’re ignored, heartbreaking when there are others, the betrayal of sharing so much and hurting each other.
I don’t miss having the constant ache of rejection and disregard just for a few crummy moments of happiness. I take a temporary period of financial/material discomfort over staying in a mind, body and soul-damaging unavailable relationship any day, and it will be so much better for your child to see you a happier and more complete mother. Hard work but worth it and filled with unexpected joys instead of nasty surprises.
Just make sure you give yourself time and patience to rebuild. You’ll be amazed at how much better you feel when you can focus on building a new secure life. Keep coming back to here x
This article came at a perfect time (as usual) and marks a huge milestone for me. I found your blog 3 years ago July after my epiphany relationship and while its taken some time and a couple of EUM, “casual relationships”, and damn hard work on my self esteem, I can say I’m cured! Last night i told the man i was dating to hit the road after he pulled the “I’m not ready for a relationship” song dance after what I now see was future faking. Instead of panicking and going along with it like I’ve always done, I told him to find a f#ck buddy cause it ain’t gonna be me. It felt so good to stand up for what I want, I couldn’t care less about “losing” him. Natalie, you have been my coach and cheerleader the last three years. I’m so thankful you are doing this and that I found you. You have helped me change my mind and my life. Thank you.
Just re-read Natalie’s related post: Do you want to be with an emotionally available person? Be emotionally available YOURSELF. A must read over and over and over!!! We attract and are attracted to like!! And the first way to quit being one is to quit being around ’em. Then the work begins… no shortcuts, no exceptions.
You don’t need to be open to interpretation; you need to be you, and you’ll find it a lot easier to be happy and to create good relationships, romantic and otherwise if you’re not ambiguous about who you are, and what you’re saying and doing.
^^^This is where I go wrong. I find it hard to just be me. I always try and present the version of myself which I think they’ll like best, around men especially, but in many other social situations too. I suppose we all adapt how we present ourselves depending on the situation to a degree, but I feel like I think about it way too much. My focus is always on how others are perceiving me, so I can never be in the moment and in tune with my feelings. It’s not until much later that I can process what actually happened. And when I do it’s usually through an incredibly self-loathing lens.
When I was with my EUM, I was never in tune with my feelings, I was always worried about what he was thinking about me. If I thought I did or said something wrong, or didn’t look good on a certain meetup, I would obsess over it and try to change it the next time. It’s a draining, miserable state to be in, trying to gain approval from someone like that.
Malaise
“My focus is always on how others are perceiving me, so I can never be in the moment and in tune with my feelings. It’s not until much later that I can process what actually happened. And when I do it’s usually through an incredibly self-loathing lens.”
This is my default mode and something I work hard on to overcome. It’s the main reason why I’m unavailable for relationships right now. Even if I feel in tune with myself when I meet someone, I fear that I could get relaxed, lose my footing and lose sight of who I am again, which I NEVER want to happen.
In other social situations, I think I’m learning and this tells me I should be able to manage intimacy when I’ve recovered. What helps me is to know that many, many people focus on how others perceive them. While I try too hard to be accepted and liked, there are others who are more concerned with seeming smarter/ authoritative/ successful and they are just as insecure. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t work towards being more authentic, but just not to give ourselves too much of a hard time over it. Also makes social occasions easier to recognise that others find it difficult. Some people never try to address this, I can think of older relatives. Others go the other extreme and decide to be totally ‘authentic’, even if it means being confrontational/offensive. I’ve even done this in some situations, reached a point of feeling so intimidated that it’s like I’ve lost already and may as well drop the politeness and good social skills, devaluing myself in the process. I equally beat myself up afterwards when this happens, because that’s not me either.
Consciousness of this problem and gradual improvement is a bonus. I hate that feeling of ‘processing what actually happened’. I’ve gone through this self-loathing for things I said or did years ago and catch myself behaving the same now. As horrible as it feels, as much as we cringe over that ‘draining, miserable state’, this site can help us to know what causes the discomfort and why, and to be honest and forgiving to ourselves. Or just to say ‘shut up and focus on something else’ when thoughts start to go out of control. Honestly I know people who are forever accepting of being drained and miserable but we can do better 🙂
This sounds all too familiar to me. I just put myself out of an ambiguous situation quite recently and am still getting over it.
The guy who doesn’t “do long distance relationships” found me on a dating website knowing full on that I lived a couple of hours away. Fast forward through months of ambiguousness and going crazy (on my part from analyzing everything and his mixed messages/signals. And he tells me he can’t give me a relationship because he’s moving even farther in a couple of months. Yet, he says that there’s always a possibility of a bet on a future, that we had the present with the possibility of a break for work/school. Yet these past few months it’s all been I miss yous, I want yous, yet relationships are messy, people get hurt. Blah blah. I don’t want to lose you. I put up with it for far too long and ended it. But still, the aftermath of the what ifs and all the crazy mixed signals from him. I just couldn’t take it anymore, even though it hurts so much.
After going through this BS recently leaving me confused as hell. I went to my therapist who actually had a go at me for wanting to know where I stand. The guy sure turned out to be an AC. I think I should fire this therapist that’s sure.
FedUp,
YES! Definately FLUSH this therapist!! 😉
Wow, Nat. I read this twice so I could capture every…single…nugget….and said “yep, uh huh” through every dang line. Word for freakin word. Scary how right on you are about all of these behaviors. It’s like you are analyzing ME!
I’m sure you hear that from many on here, and hopefully it validates your efforts in helping us all to wake the hell up and see what we’re doing to ourselves, and letting the other person get away with.
I follow you on Facebook too (Mr. Unavailable and the Fallback Girl page), and must say, you are like a life jacket on a stormy sea….and a glass of cold lemonade in the searing summer heat.
Bless all that you say and do. So glad I found you!
Haha. Well speaking of ambiguous…
What do you suppose it means when a guy treats you in a very nice, generous hospitable way when you visit him – taking you around his city, holding your hand the whole time, asking you questions about where you see yourself in the future, sharing a few laughs, having a ‘lot in common’ (I know I’m going to get yellings for even typing that) and just being a gentleman IN PUBLIC…but is rather strange in the romantic sense as he acts like he doesn’t even want to kiss you, let alone ‘do it’…but then makes ‘future fake’ plans by saying he’s coming to visit you and actually sheds those crocodile tears when you two part ways…leaving you befuddled because 8 hours prior, you were happily convinced it was not YOU who was the problem…but instead were convinced that he must be gay.
Err…then when you return home, you hear nothing from him.
For two months.
Anyone?
It means he´s just weird! Don´t waste your precious (thinking) time on guys like that, they come in all varieties and shapes.
In the last year I got myself in knots trying to understand a former good friend who supposedly had always been crazy about me but only wanted to have a mainly virtual relationship with me, making out in person once in a while (this is a 40 year old grownup). He didn´t even kiss that great.
Now that I signed up on a dating site the procession of weirdos is endless; one guy told me was willing to be my slave, another one offered a tantric experiment with no strings attached, another one explained he had a difficult personality but that he was very sweet if I learn how to manage him… and so on. Now, whenever I get one of those messages, I just say “ah well, thanks but no thanks” and make room and time for the normal guys out there.
Jae Mae, and Lilia,
Just my 1 cent: I agree with Lilia. Your situation sounds like nothing more or less than ambiguous precisely as Natalie has described in this article. I’m sorry. I know it is profoundly confusing as I went through a different experience but similar in that it was confusing, ambiguous, and painful as hell. That’s thing about ambiguity, it’s ambiguous. Natalie is brilliant with this stuff. It sounds as though he may be flip flapping and is sometimes referred to as the “slow fade” which is typical EU behavior based on the number of comments on this blog. Here’s the up-side, although I know you don’t feel as though there is one right now, use this two month silence to your advantage and start NC. I’d strongly (very strongly) recommend Natalie’s books. If he’s true to EU form, he’ll be back to attempt the reset button acting as though the past two months of silence didn’t happen. It did. That’s a fact and NOT ambiguous. My best to you Jae. Bolt down the doors, block him, and focus on you.
Lilia, I hope you’ll read my comment below regarding my recent soiree into the murky waters of online dating.
Lilia, that sounds dreadful! Yes my experience in online dating has been somewhat limited and similar to yours. I once met a guy online who lied about where he lived just so he could impress me. That wasn’t the weird part…he was addicted to porn, hated his parents, made inappropriate comments about my friends and talked to himself. Complete nutter. He was begging me to stay with him even though he was moving to America and I had found out on his dating website profile. Ive not tried online dating since, needless to say. Take care and beware the crazies and weasels!
I am only just getting the hang of being open with who I am lark. I have always, always had difficulties in terms of trying to assert myself (particularly in relationships). I exited an intense and on the verge of becoming abusive relationship last year…at the time I questioned myself and questioned myself…”Did I make the right choice??”..and wasted an enormous amount of time doing so..
I have spent my time since celibate (apart from a dodgy one night stand)..and the me who used to find it difficult to say “no” to almost any offer..can finally say “no” now..”Sorry, but do I believe that you are an arrogant, misogynistic pig..please move along now…”..:P
I do not want to be open to interpretation.
It is scary, I will not lie. I am now 27 years old (almost 28) and trying to discover who I am really, for the first time. I do get afraid that I will be left on the shelf. I guess I would rather be alone smothered in moisturizer, reading up on new recipes in the internet than in the arms of a man who does not respect me. But every goddamn day people refer to my advancing age..and the fact that I am childless, single and approaching “expiry” (not my words)..as if I shouldn’t be fussy.
Are there any women here that can relate?
Hi Suzy, yes I can very much relate. I will be 33 in June.
You are young girl! 🙂
Part of the reason why I fell in love with this ‘mature’ looking ‘all together’ guy was because I was looking for someone to start a family with, buy a house, the lots.
But I was too eager to get this ‘type’ of man, also because I had been (consciously) single for about 4 years, that I failed to see I was selling myself short by staying with this man for 3 years, only to end it in complete devestation and being hurt more than ever before.
You are definitely young, I know when you’re 28 you don’t feel that way because of people saying ‘when are you gonna settle down’ but I’d take an age pill anytime (who wouldn’t off course) to go back and work on myself back then and maybe have met a wonderful man and have a family by now. I didn’t because I panicked.
Do not panic, take care of yourself, there’s plenty of time, meet the right guy for your right self 🙂
Suzy and Sophie,
Dear lord in heaven…28 and 33! Suzy, your comment made me sputter with laughter. Yes, slather yourself in moisturizer and read new recipes on the internet. You described the last year of my life drenched in moisturizer and reading recipes on the internet after ditching the most ambiguous, humiliating, and disrespectful situation. I was so guilty of knowing exactly where I stood, an OW, but creating different options (in my head only) because I knew where I stood. Second fiddle. I stuck more than my fingers in my ears and created dreamy options aka fantasies in order to win the prize, a man who cheated on his wife of 20-something years and cheated on his children. Suzy and Sophie, I’d like to gently suggest spending the next year slathered in moisturizer, focusing on who you are, reading recipes, setting boundaries, and figuring out what you want. If after a year, you decide you want ambiguity, drama, and pain, that’s okay. It really doesn’t have to be like that though. I’m 53 and there really is no fire, no last chance saloon…read below.
I remember worrying like that when I was 27, I got so fed up with myself that I decided “well anything can happen in 3-5 years… I might even have kids in that lapse of time” and I forgot all about it and focused on having a good time with my girlfriends.
Five years later, I had two children, had lived in another country for two years with my partner and life was hard! I had to grow up real fast.
Life never stays the same. Whenever I worry that nothing worthwhile will happen to me again (I´m now 40 and single again) my mom always tells me there are always so many changes in life that that´s the last thing to worry about.
I was never one to say yes to whatev (and have always had a high degree of difficulty to snag so to speak) BUT due to child abuse issues, in my teen years I had one abusive relationship which was directly related to just not realising I was worth far more than how I was treating myself and allowing myself to be treated. I was lucky to learn in my early 20’s that ‘casual’ involvements are not for me and have never had trouble saying no to this once I realised that was all that was on offer. What I think now though is that after a long period of not dating at all (15 years whilst my Son was maturing into an adult – I didn’t want to take a chance on a passing parade of ‘step father figures’ passing through his life) and having only gotten back on the r’ship horse in the past few years, I have no trouble with your comment, “I believe that you are an arrogant, misogynistic pig..please move along now…” A couple I’ve said this to outright and another I told, “sorry but a 36 yo man who is yet to have ever moved out of home and still living with his Mother with no plans to move out” is not for me.
As an older woman here, to a younger one Suzi, I would say have confidence in your ability to KNOW what is right for you. The fact is the QUICKER we FLUSH (even nicely sometimes before we even bother dating them – as I’ve learned to do now too, in situations where I meet them through mutual friends and can identify red flags from afar, without them ever knowing they initially ‘caught my eye’)… the quicker we are to finding peace within ourselves, and who maybe even a decent guy one day. It’s all the B.S that is actually the major time waster. It’s not wasted though when we learn from our mistakes or even smarter, those of others.
Believe in yourself and forget the naysayers. In your age group there are HEAPS of available guys. The right one will appear when you’re ready.
Hugs. T 🙂
I need advice. I’ve been dating a man for 2 months- everything was great the first 6 weeks. Due to his business travel and our schedules with kids on bith sides we don’t have a ton of time to see each other. Last weekend he chose to go out of town with friends instead of see me. Not a big deal but he’s been more distant lately so I’m on watch. Other things are he seems to turn every conversation back to him. But today I found his Twitter feed that I didnt know about before ( I don’t use Twitter and he has a fake name Twitter handle.) About 2 weeks ago he posted “you’ve been asking where I am. I met a girl but don’t worry, soon enough I’ll f*** that up like I always do.” then a week later about the time when we were disagreeing over him going out of town, he tweeted “I told you I would f*** that up.” otherwise his twitter stuff is pretty tame. A few tweet mentions back and forth with girl I know he used to date but not for about 6 months.
Code amber to me- just TOO much all about him. Any help on how to proceed is welcomed. I like him VERY much! He’s met my kids and calls me his girlfriend and is constantly in touch, but I just see a few things that make me on guard.
Back in Jan 2011 my brother wanted to introduce me to a not so close freind of his, someone he knows of, and was a doctor, also of the same background as me. I checked his facebook profile and thought he wasnt bad looking. I however at that time was not ready to contact him. My brother did tell him of me though.
A few months passed and I put myself onto a dating website. After flicking through profiles I came across his, and his status was looking for ‘Marriage’, Although at this point I still did not make contact. So in Mid May I finally decided to go for broke and make contact via ‘facebook’ after repeated pressure from my folks to find a guy. A few days had passed and I had heard nothing, my freind told me to forget it move on and keep looking for other guys on the website, in which I did. Three weeks had passed. I logged on to the dating website and decided to make a few changes to my profile ….mainly picture
(and just before you think im ugly, im definalty not-the first profile pic was adequate and was getting me plently of interest-note this was also my profile pic on fb) and I changed a few details on the kind of guy im looking for. I noticed immediately the type of guys checking me had changed (ie same religion, height,diet,). I logged onto the website again and noticed he was on the chat facility (i was invisible so he could not see me), then all of a sudden I received a facebook message from him saying i hope you dont mind me contacting you, heres my number and your brother did tell me about you and that he lived close by. This was all 3 weeks later, he has an iphone and his facebook wall is visible, so he is clearly checking his messages, and why was he on the dating website and then make contact esp after i had changed my pic and profile, I do appreciate and it did say on his profile he was a busy doctor trying to find a suitable partner
in July I got a call from him, however I was at the airport about to go on holiday. I said I would contact him when I get back. He tried to facebook friend me, but I did not accept as I had not met him personally yet. I contacted him when I returned and we chatted for a bit. Anyhow he said his brother was getting married that summer, he asked me If I would like to meet up for drinks, in which I said yes. He said he would call me….Three months had passed…no call. Around early October 2011, I…
Tori,
you didn’t know about his twitter account and you found this out. You are searching for him on the internet because you’re just curious or to get some answers to questions you’re scared to ask?
I think somebody who speaks publicly in that manner isn’t a drama free person. Why does he need to say this over twitter for anybody to see. Is there a need for attention through a ‘that one time in bandcamp’ style?
You say it’s all about him, is it about him and his (difficult?) history of some sort?
If you all ready feel like there isn’t enough room for you in a period of time when it should be all about you ànd him, watch out, it tends not to get better but worse.
I think you are right to be on guard. I would confront him about the twitter and ask what he ment with his tweets. Do not keep it in the back of your mind, it will only manifest lots of weeds in there. Let it out and proceed from which ever answer he gives you.
Natalie this article, as usual, is amazingly spot on. As some of you know, I was entangled in the worst of ambiguous, shameful, and painful situations, an OW, not to diminish any other form of ambiguous experience . Yup, you hit it out of the ball park: “Being mutually ambiguous is a breeze until one of you claims to want to settle on one meaning, one direction, and essentially expects commitment.” Phew, talk about disappear. It’s like smoke. I know FBG’s like me could have major issues with the online dating scene. I’ve read everything on this blog for the last year or so, copied everything into my journal regarding Natalie’s dating advice, spent the last year on men-o-pause, done a ton of work on me, got some self-esteem, albeit wobbly, and set firm boundaries, not wobbly. On Thursday, I signed up on an online dating site, Plenty of Fish. It’s been the most unambiguous weekend. I’ve got clear, firm boundaries and the guys have been so honest. I’ve flushed the ton of “how r u” responses. There has been several guys who have read my profile and responded directly. I went out last night with a nice guy (not my type) but it was like I wasn’t even there. I don’t worry if he’ll track me down, he forgot to even get my last name as he was so wrapped up in himself. Since he was so flush with doe, I let him pay. He committed every foe pa in the book, including talking about the crazy ex wife. I think I’ll just do drinks,, I never thought dinner would end. In the meantime, after a ton of flushing, I think there may be two authentic bites. We’ll see this week. On task, I’m clear and there’s been NO ambiguity, no texts. It’s moved from POF to meeting. No texts, no lengthy email threads. No expectations that this guy is the one. It’s really been quite different. The two guys who I have arranged to meet this week are NOT my type and have gone out of their way to assure that I am comfortable. Clearly, not my type. There hasn’t been the slightest drop of ambiguity on this online site. One guy admitted that he was only up for casual and I responded, good luck with that.
For Lilia and Sophie and for all 20-somethings, I got persistent responses from a 23 and a 27 year-old, which I blocked. Of course, it’s clear I’m 53. They were the most persistent and so cute. They claimed to only date women 40 to 50-something. It’s just…
Runnergirl
Aren´t those murky waters indeed! But you know, I´ve also noticed it´s an advantage when these guys are upfront about their intentions. I´ve been flushing a lot of those lame “how are you”, “hope you have a nice afternoon, beautiful” etc responses as well. I would´ve dated the younger cute guys some years ago (been there, it was not good) but now I don´t bother.
The ones that seem to be the nicest guys I wouldn´t have noticed in another setting, I´d have thought they were too nerdy and not my type at all.
I´m wondering if having these new boundaries, and using my head instead of my libido to date is making me change my usual tendency to EU relationships? It is a bit scary.
runner, lilia
You got me thinking, I think we need to reconsider our “type” and even if we should have a type.
The excrush/crush/whatever he is (this isn’t about me) was not my type. I did’t notice him for a LONG time. In fact, he told me this week that he would say hello to me and I’d just ignore him. I do remember looking at him ages ago and thinking BAD JEANS. Now, isn’t that a daft reason to write a man off?
Another man at church I wrote off for being too nerdy/geeky. As I’ve got to know him we’ve been getting on well and having a laugh. But of course now he’s got a girlfriend!
Ambiguity is undesirable but let’s not go too far in the other direction and try to rush things to a conclusion. It takes time to get to know someone. In my EU days, I skipped that and substituted drama, chemistry, sex. Now I don’t do that anymore, there’s time to breathe. Of course, it shouldn’t take FOREVER AND EVER (note to self) but there is no fire.
Incidentally, since you talk of age, I know a man with a full head of hair, really sexy voice and a lovely manner who is well into his 70s. Some/many people just don’t fit the age stereotypes. Age IS a factor, but if it was the overriding factor, none of us would be on BR. I’m sure we’ve all had relationships with men close to us in age and they still didn’t work out. Also, don’t assume that if he’s over 20/40/50/60/ whatever benchmark then he must be mature or if he’s under those ages he’s immature. The most longterm thinker I know is in his early 20s. He saved up the deposit to buy the house for him and his girlfriend and is building an extension for her so she can run a business from home.
DISCLAIMER: I don’t know the men of which you talk and it’s your right to judge it as you see fit. If it’s the House of Horrors – of course, move along!
Hey ladies,
You all got me thinking about clarity, ambiguity, types, and age as well as BAD JEANS (lol). GOOD JEANS have certainly gotten me nothing but grief. I’m thinking the things like appearance, professions, types, and age are less important than the shared common core values Natalie discusses. Of course, I’m really new at dating and online seemed so scary but it’s been really different than what I expected. I’m no way recommending the online thing as it could go south tomorrow and then I delete my profile.
I’ve been thinking about what changed over this past year and why it feels so clear and unambiguous. I think it’s me! Before I did the online thing, I hopped on to BR for hours and reread everything Natalie has written about dating. I could finally honestly answer the questions affirmatively after a year and change on BR, a ton of moisturizer, and some really dark times. When I was getting ready to go out, I ran through my BR check list: Self-esteem-check, self-respect-check, boundaries-check, flush handle-check, red-flag alert-check, trust in my judgment-check, reality-check, libido, chemistry,imagination, dreamer-uncheck . I forgot my lipstick though.
So this may be different because I’m different (since I’m the common denominator in my life) thanks to you all and Natalie. I have two dates this week and both guys have called to touch base and confirm. And only ONE text message, one guy wanted me to have his cell number. Both told me to call them anytime. I did call one back tonight at 9:00pm after class to confirm for tomorrow. He was happy I called and we chatted for an hour. Sheesh, so different, so clear. It’s so clear, I can’t believe how I existed in that fog of ambiguity and pain for so long. Natalie and all of you have made such tremendous difference in my life. I’m forever grateful.
For those going through the darkness of the early days of NC. STICK IT OUT. Do the work. Read BR three times a day and all Natalie’s books. I’m not done healing and a work in progress but there is a difference. Maybe it’s the moisturizer.
I just had the strangest experience with yet another internetdatingfreak, not sure what to make of it? He seemed pretty normal (divorced, 45 yo, looking for a commited relationship), asked for my cell phone the second time we chatted, which I thought was a good sign.
Then when he calls me the next day it´s like he´s scolding me. I asked politely who I was talking to because I didn´t recognise his number, and he said “sooo you give your number to anyone, then?”. We had been joking about going ice skating on our first date, he suggested we kiss if he beats me at a race, I thought we were just being cute, it wasn´t in a serious tone. But the next day, he tells me “oh so you´re such a fast skater, what was that all about, and racing me for kisses?”. As if I´m a complete slut.
Btw in my (south american) culture it´s quite normal to flirt in this manner, it doesn´t mean anything.
He also sounded much older than 45, I felt like I was talking to some dirty old man.
Just had to share this, ladies, though I wasn´t invested in him it was quite a shock to be treated like that… maybe I should just forget about dating? Sigh.
Hey Lilia,
I don’t know if you should just forget about dating. That, of course, is up to you and whether you can trust your judgment. In any event, perhaps what you experienced with this individual presented the first signs of ambiguity? I’d save his number under “Don’t Pick Up-Ambiguity Man Possible AC” and flush. What he said clearly isn’t about you. How could it be, he’s never met you.
Take this with a grain of salt since I’m no dating expert but I’m finding that “flush handle” very handy indeed. I just went out with a very nice and handsome guy who showed up with flowers. As the evening wore on, although he was nice, considerate, and handsome, he was a nutty as a fruitcake. That wasn’t ambiguous. I see how in the past I would have tried to minimize his nuttiness because he is a considerate and respectful nut job. Not now.
The guy you talked to seems mean spirited. It’s not about you. The guy I dated is a nut job. It’s not about me.
Flush and Next! My three dating essentials: My self-esteem, my boundaries, and the FLUSH HANDLE.
Lol! “nutty as a fruitcake”!!
You´re right, I´m flushing this moron. Another red flag is he lives with his mother, I´m thinking Norman Bates.
The good thing about this internet dating is there´s always a new one waiting in line, you don´t get the chance to feel these ACs are your only option… great for my self esteem!
@Ann
Yep, you hit it right on the head. Jerk teacher does equal jerk guy. These are caused by the same problem: inability or refusal to treat others with respect, inability or refusal to adhere to boundaries, be a responsible adult. This last year, my AC prof missed weeks of classes both semesters, felt he deserved a two week vacation when class was in session, blew off meetings that he had helped schedule, and hit on a colleague during a meeting. Why? Because he can. Great thoughts on flirting: yep, if these dudes give indications that they are attracted to you and do not mean it, they oughta be man enough to own up to their crap behavior and apologize. Women that do this are given a much less flattering name than flirt: prick tease.
Okay last chance saloon 20-30-40-50 something ladies…I just responded to another 30 something male. It is incredibly clear on my profile that I am 53 years old cos I am. I’m now a true believer that there is no such thing as the last chance saloon. How do I ditch these totally cute 20-30-40 somethings? And I’ve got the appropriate age range 50-somethings. Nothing whatsoever is ambiguous. I’m clear. 50 and up. So Fed Up and others, may I send you these darling 20-30 somethings? I didn’t expect these responses from such young guys. Sheesh are they cute.
runnergirl,
Go out with these young guys!!!
Runner
I’ve always said, even when I was young and stupid, that a 10 year age difference is irrelevant if you’re both adults.
I think you can go down to 40. I do know a few married couples where the woman is over 10 years older. It does need to be discussed, esp the children question. We also need to be careful of young men who see older women as “easier” and having less expectations – so watch out for those who will ONLY date older women. But aren’t there a gazillion young women who are being treated as though they have no relationship rights either? It’s something we could all stand to be clear about and not take for granted.
I get approached by men in ther 20s and 30s as well. I guess we shouldn’t complain. But I’m getting older and the men aren’t! And no, I’m not actively seeking out younger men. It was a bit of a shocker when I was in my early 40s and a 16yo started trying to flirt with me. YES I SHUT HIM DOWN.
Still, I’m the same age as Gong Li. And aren’t you the same age as Michelle Pfeiffer?
Hey Grace, HS and Tea Cozy,
It’s funny you mention Michelle Pfeiffer, that’s who many folks say I look like and we are the same age. I had to laugh cos you’ve never seen me and you drew that analogy out of cyber-space. Although the young guys still have hair and sport some cool jeans, my bottom line is 40-something. It’s a matter of life experience. I could retire in 3 years. No complaints from me either. I guess my take-away is, as usual, Natalie is spot on. There is no such thing as the last chance saloon.
HS and Tea Cozy, go gently with the online thing. Of course, Natalie is peeking over all of our back fences because she’s brilliant that way and I just serendipitously experienced a moment of clarity rather than ambiguity. It really is about boundaries and self-esteem which brings amazing clarity. Remember Natalie’s article about the flush handle? Swear to god, every time hit delete, I see that pic of the toilet with the flush handle. I’m going to my favorite hardware store and buy a flush handle to carry with me as I get my butt off the tired old Last Chance Saloon barstool…nice visual. Ladies, you are amazing.
Runnergirl, I am 40 and on POF too…I received few emails from guys 27-32, I refused to meet them as I think they are looking for experience with older ladies and NSA…Trying to rid of my “booty call relationship” at the moment, but still looking for the Right one:-) Good luck with dating, please keep us updating!
Atta girl, runner. There *are* guys out there. The first step is to get our butts off that tired old barstool at the Last Chance Saloon. I’m still holding off on re-upping my online profile till I get work settled, but I’m looking forward to it.
It sounds like you’re doing it right — setting boundaries, not getting waylaid by those young ‘uns, not dragging out the email/IM phase. Zero ambiguity. Good for you!
@Ann,
I agree that profs shouldn’t be left off the hook for flirting. These guys are purposely using their power status to play with women to stroke their egos. They suggest that they want future contact and then back off when you take them up on their offer. The same exact thing happened to me. Wondering where you are from, if it’s the same guy. After a few conversations/e mails, I blew him off. BubBye
Wondering what everyone thinks of ex ambiguous prof possibly stalking after NC.
I think, based on my experience, and the others I have read here that in general profs wouldn’t pursue stalking because they don’t need to as they can easily move on to someone else for attention and thrills. It depends what you mean by stalking though – I guess anyone can indulge in messed up behaviour depending on their history and you can’t really generalise. I smiled when I read you post about whether it was the same guy as Ann’s post. Again, from the experiences I’ve read here they are in every uni in every city in every country in the world because the environment allows that behaviour to thrive.
@runnergirl and Sofie, thank you for the comments…
Your above comment runnergirl made me “lol”..send em my way buddy!
I just get irritated because people seem to have this obsession with age and what I am supposed to look like for my age and where I am supposed to be in my life. It does make me nervous but having said that I am not going to waste my time (anymore) with unsuitable men. Already, I get called a MILF (wonderful thing to be called…if you have children)..or “you’re 27..but you’re still hot?”..well what am I supposed to be?? Ugly? There is sexiness to be found in all women regardless of age.
The majority of attention I do get appears to come from the 20-24 bracket. I went out with one of them last year…exceptionally immature (what else did I expect?)…future faking, fast forwarding…it hurt like hell and at the time I cursed him and thought of him as a devious sh*t just out to get laid…and perhaps he was that…but he’s not what I want. Or need.
The thing this year has brought me is that I am now comfortable being by myself and being myself. Yes, I do enjoy loading on the moisturizer (yummy smelling cocoa butter)..I have a passion for cooking..boxing (great aggression reliever)..reading..great wine…etc..last year my identity was so wrapped up in other people. I am more than happy to spend another doing what I have been doing…it just annoys me the pressure…I’d love to say that it doesn’t bother me but it does.
I wish I was back in my 20’s. I feel like dating was easier then, but maybe I am just forgetting. At 37, I feel it just get’s harder and harder the older I get. And, I look young. Most men think I am in my late 20’s or early 30’s. There was definitely more of a selection in my 20’s and I don’t remember being hit on by married men all the time the way I am now. And if they are not married, they are going through a divorce or divorced, broke and have tons of baggage while I have none.
I just came out of a relationship with an EUM who was going through a divorce. I realized it was going nowhere and pulled the plug. This also helped me to realize that my EU ways are behind me because I am actually disinterested in someone who is an EUM who I have liked for years.
Now, I went on a few days with a 42 year old who had never been married and he was the most boring person ever. If I didn’t speak, there were minutes of silence and I had zero attraction to him. I tried because he at least seemed mature. But come on, I need a personality of some sort. No compliments and no laughter after 3 dates? No way!
So, ever since my final date with him last week, I have been in a funk and missing my ex EUM. It’s so frustrating. I know he is no good for me for many different reasons, but I am so fed up with the singles scene.
I feel like is this what I am left with at this age? Is this what I have to settle for?
Sometimes I feel like I can’t win. 🙁
ex EUM-
no, take heart. its not all you’re left with.
as we get older, yes, things get more complicated, there is more baggage, nothing is as new and clean as it was 10 years ago. but you are not consigned to nowheresville choices between EUMs and boring dullards. no, you don’t have to settle. you just have to look a teeny bit harder, and maybe in new places.
i find that any transformation comes in stages. so if you’re no longer EU, and have reached the stage at which you really want to give of yourself, then maybe you just haven’t completed the next stage at which you really notice men who are EA and are also fun. look up, look around, they’re there. look up and see who’s looking at you.
and try mixing it up any way you can. try online (really tough), try new groups, try telling friends whose judgment you trust that you’re looking for a real relationship and see if they introduce you to anyone.
also, it doesn’t happen right away. you need to give the new way you’re putting yourself out in the world a chance.
don’t despair, don’t frowny face. let yourself feel like this for a short bit, then dust yourself off and make yourself giggle.
cc
Your words are encouraging but I would go further. I think we CAN be new and we can be baggage free. I was gnashing my teeth wishing I’d met the excrush when I was ten years younger. But then I realised, ten years ago I was a nut job and he would have either run a mile or I would have been chasing some AC around the place.
So, while the age gap and my divorce may very well scupper us (we haven’t discussed it yet), I can honestly say I am in way better shape than I was ten, twenty years ago. I’m not as beautiful as I was on the outside but on the inside, I scrubbed up well!
All that childhood trauma, the marriage, the abusive relationship – I am over it (pretty much). All that’s left of it is a sensitive heart.
In the words of Revelation:
“Behold, I am making everything new”
grace-
yep, that’s it!! the only difference between where you are and where ex EUM is is that you *know* that you’re all brandy new, you know you’re transformed. and guess how one gets from one to the other? *more* time.
i feel the same way, at least most of the time. i’ve processed the past, and my butt isn’t as tight as it once was, and i need a hell of a lot more sleep than i used to, but in my heart and my spirit? i’m bouncy! i didn’t really feel this way when i was 20 or 30.
ex-EUM-
grace has it. we all need to be philosophical and forgiving about whatever has happened in our pasts. i really hate the expression “we wouldn’t be who we are today if it weren’t for that”, but its true. don’t deny or regret your experience, and don’t blame yourself.
really, truly believe in yourself.
I think it’s a pretty common phenomena for women to feel all lusty about their exes after a potential prospect falls through. I felt like this the other week…a gorgeous man I’ve been into for a while was showing interest and as soon as a reciprocated he backed off. Another thing..sexual innuendos during our Facebook chats…red flag(s)!!!
Anyhow after all of that, I began thinking about my ex..there one where there wasn’t even a real goodbye..and I KNOW I would not be thinking of him if someone worthy came along..and I sure as hell wasn’t thinking of him during those dubious Facebook chats with handsome dude.
So it is normal what you are experiencing Ex EUM Lover..certainly from my perspective and I’m sure many of the other women here.
At 27, 37, at 47, at 57 I believe there is always a chance at love. I just get miffed because everyone makes such a big deal out of the fact that I am alone…but I ain’t a desperado and won’t settle just for the sake of a warm bed at night. I’d rather a hot water bottle.
All,
Thanks for your kind words. I feel so grateful having found this site after my break up. I never realized the reasons my relationships never worked out was because I always picked men who were EU. I was the classic Florence Nightingale type, but I recognized that years ago and stopped. 10 years ago I would have still stuck it out with my most recent EUM hoping he would change once his divorce was final. This time around, I realized he was putting me on a roller coaster of emotions and got out when I heard certain red flags from him like “I am a train wreck”, “I think you will get sick of my nonsense soon”, “I’m not ready to grow up”, “I have to discuss my drinking with my therapist.” He was also a cheater all through his marriage with various women and comes for a family of cheaters. Classic EUM and I did recognize the red flags and didn’t delude myself which made me realize I had done a lot of growing since the first time we were together 5 years ago. For that, I am proud!
Thank you for all your advice. I will get back to that happy place I was in before he popped back into my life last fall. And I know there are men out there and I need to be patient. And I never settle. I have so many friends who do and I think they are crazy.
BTW, I have tried the on-line thing a few times and got nothing out of it except a lot of meaningless dates. It felt inauthentic to me and I feel those sites breed serial dating. It’s funny….I still get emails from Match and I see so many familiar faces that are still on there from years ago. I honestly think on line dating has messed people up even more.
Anybody have any other tips on where to meet people aside form bars and on line?
I will go about my business and hope for the best. And I hope the best for all for all of you as well!
“The thing this year has brought me is that I am now comfortable being by myself and being myself. ”
Suzy, that is so great. I didn’t come to that until much later in life, so I applaud you for finding it in your 20s. It’s a powerful position to be in — you save yourself a lot of heartache by not feeling like you “have to” be in a relationship all the time.
I remember getting lots of those annoying comments about age and what I should/shouldn’t be doing, right around my late 20s. It seemed like EVERYONE had an opinion. “Oh, you’re 27, but you don’t have any kids? Oh, you’re 28, but you’re not married?” Jeez. I actually think that time of life can be a bit chaotic, dating-wise, since people are often in an awkward phase between college and getting really settled in as grown-ups. Talk about ambiguity!
And boxing is fantastic! I do a martial art too, and hitting and kicking the boxing dummy is so cathartic. Cheers.
I haven’t had the chance to read through all the comments, so apologies if doubling-up, but you know what one of the worst parts about being in an ambiguous, powerless relationship is that that day-to-day pain, which is bad enough (those internal jabs that tell you something is off, that you’re not being heard and that you’re in danger) is the complete gut-bonanza-awfulness of having to unpack that ambiguity when it’s all over. I say with the most confidence one can have) I will never put myself in an ambiguous relationship again (which in my case started on the same page, but progressed very quickly to one person – the AC – creating a situation of intense uncertainty and mixed signals – from engagement rings to angry outbursts). It’s simply not worth it. In my two relationships since the AC (second still happily going), you know what I have done to do my bit for relationship clarity: I have been upfront about looking for a relationship, but I have not then poured all my attention and love into one person. I have given myself (and him) the time and opportunity to let it grow naturally. The first ended for good, mutual reasons, after we both recognised that we could not make each other happiness. This meant about a week’s worth of discomfort and sadness when it ended. Truly, ambiguity = dishonest with yourself (whether it’s because you want to hide, escape, be right, borrow from someone else’s glory) = gap between self and reality = awful, awful pain.
meant ‘besides that day-to-day pain’!
Runnergirl- Really no way! I got rejected recently by a 35 year old as a 10 year age difference was too much apparently. I disagreed. Yet the guy didn’t mind inviting me to his bedroom, all we did was make out. Yet that was ok?! mixed messages a plenty. I was disappointed we got on so well. I haven’t heard from him again.
Just my two cents, but I would be very cautious with younger men courting older women, especially when the age differences is more than a few years. Not that all are dishonest, but many of them look for more experienced women for a bit of fun, for their capacity of nurturing (shoulder to cry on and ego stroke) and quite a few for a meal ticket. Protect your financial assets and make sure they pay their fair share. Make also sure you wont invest more time and energy than is healthy. I had this relationship with a grad student at a time when I was established in my career and when I made it clear I was not working my butt off so that he could spend all his cash on weed and party, our relationship quickly fell apart. As well, when I volunteered at a mental health forum, I was constantly hit on by guys in their 20s who were on the look to secure attention supply and if possible, a bit of fun on the side. I know this might be hard to stomach, but in my experience, very few have the maturity to assess the full package of a woman (inner and outer beauty): the perky boobs will win the day 9 times out of 10. I had one in particular who pursued me online for months, even if I was married and clearly not available, only to admit, once called on his game, that what he was looking for was a “mentor”, in other words, a free life coach. Even after I told him that I was not doing any kind of support anymore, he kept trying to contact me to get his fill of moral support and advices. At first, it can be quite flattering to get so much attention from them, but it can be a rude awakening to realize that they are in it for their very own selfish needs. Some of them can be quite the Florence Nightingale honeypot. And its unlikely they are ready to settle and see you as “The One”.
Well, my BF of 7 mths that I have been going back n forth with, broken up a few times has finally told me that he has fallen in love with me and is starting to express more feeling and feeling language that I have needed. Now, I’m the one who is not sure and haven’t told him that I love him, becasue I’m not sure.
I recently got together with my ex before this one and it was like no time has passed, I really loved being with him and do click, however, he was an accclown when we were together and EU and tried to tell me that I was the problem with us cause I trigger men to the core. I took this on until someone said he’s blaming me. Seeing him again has been a bit confusing, especailly when I compare the current bf with him and how I felt around him. I want to give the current bf a chance and I am afraid, what if he’s not the right one? Why do I feel more excited about being with my ex? Is that my dysfunction acting out? Maybe, I just need time.
chloe
Can you see what is going on here. I want you when you don’t want me, but when you want me, I don’t want you. This is classic EU. I know. I did it for years. In fact, I tried to do it recently but opted out of the drama. You want the dynamic more than you want a healthy relationship.
I think what you need is time out from men completely. I don’t think you’re being fair to the new boyfriend but if you want to make it work with him then NC the ex.
The acid test is this – would you want your boyfriend to be seeing his ex and comparing her to your, however favourably?
And it’s not about jumping from man to man looking for the right one. It’s much more about BEING the right one, being that authentic, happy person, who knows their value and their worth, who is willing to risk vulnerability (but not in a mad way) and love and be loved. Who will put themselves on the line and not dramatise it in their own heads and then expect the other party to fix this drama they know nothing about (cos you know, it’s not real).
Break up with them both, or NC the ex, or – if you must – go back to the ex. Whatever you do, you can’t have them both while you make your mind up. Isn’t that what we all complain about? Being the option. Unfortunately, though, when we try to turn the tables and be the option holder – we STILL get the raw end of the deal. These jacked up situations might work out well for other people, they don’t for us. We want the real thing but to date we’ve been crap at getting it. Time to change that.
Thanks Grace, I am well aware that I can’t have both, and I don’t want to go back to ex, I think our meeting was more like a nice closure, since we did end badly. I am unsure of the current bf because of everything we went through and I don’t know if he’s the one. Anyways, I know it looks like I am being EU, and maybe I am, but I’m not sure that is it, I may be genuinely concerned about a future with this man, but I guess I’m willing to take the time to find out, inspite of my fears.
Please help me get a better perspective! Is anyone willing to read the following email I sent? I don’t want to give any details or context just yet – I’m really curious to see what you read into it (and if it’s a reasonable email or a crazy email – like I said I’m just completely lacking perspective right now!)…..
So… Once again, last night I was having a hard time with my words…. I’m sorry. My mind was a little overactive. There was a lot kicking around in my brain and I was trying to filter the most relevant bits. I always aim for clarity, but sometimes I land in confusion. However, I think you answered all the questions I had of you, and I think I was finally able to answer the main question I’ve been grappling over myself – do I need more from you than you are able to give right now? The answer is no. I truly don’t want to force anything. Above all else, what I want is your greatest good. I don’t like ultimatums. I hope you know that when I told you I would not be content to simply be your friend, it was not an ultimatum. I was not saying, get on board or you’ll lose me. What I meant was should you ever tell me that there is no possibility of our relationship moving forward, that in fact you don’t want to be with me, then it would be too painful to be “just friends.” If that occurred, I would need space to get over you. But the thing is you seem to want to continue to see me as much as I want to continue to see you. I think you do want to be with me and there is a possibility of things moving forward with us. We’re not merely attracted to each other; moreover, I think we’re a good fit. You simply can’t commit yourself to being in a serious relationship right now because you need to sort some things out – emotionally, spiritually. Believe me, I get it. I don’t think that’s a cop out. I want you to have whatever you need to get back on track. I don’t want to ask more of you than you are able to give. You said that my afore mentioned comment set up a kind of baseline that you proceeded to try to figure out how to meet, but I really don’t want you to see it that way. I don’t want you to feel compelled to meet some kind of minimum. I want you to give, in your freedom, whatever you are able to give. And what you have been able to give – your time, support, affection, encouragement, and your care – has been great. It’s been enough. Though, if I’m…
Got cut off! Here’s the rest of it:
…Though, if I’m being completely honest, I would like to see you more. Let’s talk about this soon okay? Maybe you don’t have more time to give, also there’s something that’s been a little frustrating to me, but we’ll talk.
That’s it. Please, your thoughts?
Lily
I think most men would prefer to be kicked repeatedly in the head than have this “talk” to which you refer. But let me know if I’m wrong.
I’m confused, Lily, is this your email to a man you are friends with, or is this his email to you? If it’s his email to you, then I like him, a lot! But, if it’s your email to him, not so sure…..he sounds like an EUM and maybe you are giving away too much. Stop being friends, or start going on dates that as a friend you can share with him so that he can start viewing you in that way…. as someone’s date, I know it’s easier said then done, but worth it. Do you think he wants more?
ok, got it, it’s your email….no don’t send it, that’s my advice.
Lily
Consider NC-ing him. He has ALL THE POWER. Maybe he took it, maybe you gave it to him, but you’ve got nothing worthwhile here.
It is a very confused and ambiguous email and it’s not going to get you a response you’ll be satisfied with. But don’t blame yourself, nothing will “work”. There is no killer text, email or even face-to-face conversation that will win you the bingo moment you seek:
Here’s a verse from a poem, excuse me if I misquote:
And so I replace the jewel in the tray
And laughingly pretend I’m far too poor
For nothing I give, nothing I do or say
Nothing I am
Will make you love me more.
You are matyring yourself to this man and he. does. not. deserve. it. I know that because a) no mere mortal deserves this level of adoration (not to self) and b) anyone who had a heart would cut this off for your own good.
When you are in a worthwhile friendship or relationship with someone you’re allowed to be crabby, sarcastic, tired, funny, bitchy, kind, contrary, loving, dependent at times. You’re allowed to have expectations, ask for favours, get angry if you’re let down. . As soon as you find yourself ditching all rights to be some kind of ever-understanding Mother Theresa/Florence: “I don’t want to force anything, I want your greatest good, we’re a good fit, you’re this or that (insert excuses), I want you to have what you need” – it’s time to exit.
Since you ask how this reads, I’ll give it to you straight: You sound like you’ve turned yourself into his doormat. And, no, the answer isn’t to stand up to him, or be nicer, or be less nice, it’s to free yourself from this extremely unhealthy dynamic. You can’t win this. Walk away and free yourself.
Thank you Grace!
He and I never did “talk” about our relationship after I sent this email back in Feb. and I’m embarrassed how long it took me to get a clue. He and I used to see each other once a week, but after this email it went down to every 2, then three, and now only once a month. I sensed him distancing himself and I scaled back too, kept casual but friendly. It wasn’t til he disappointed me in a major way (declining amazing concert tickets for his birthday – because he just HAD to work) at the end of April that I decided I needed to really go NC. I thought I should at least send him a simple Happy Birthday text on his bday, but then wash my hands of him, because well, I had TOTALLY made myself a doormat, so my hands were tied anyway. However, and I’m now thinking this was a mistake, I thought that the one line I could extend without further compromising my dignity and self-respect was to simply let him know (frank, heads-up text) when my band has a gig (I’m a singer). It’s gone down twice now where I sent the text, didn’t get a response, didn’t expect him to come, but HE CAME! ……I don’t know why he comes. He clearly has feelings for me, and says he’s glad he came….. but it’s keeping me hanging by a thread, and breaking my heart afresh each time I see him. And it gets my wheels turning as to what I should do/say, wondering what he thinks of all this… today I was even wondering if maybe he took the above email as a break-up email (!) and that’s why he pulled back and is just waiting for a sign that I’m still interested….. but that’s crazy right?
I know I can’t bring up our “relationship” – or can I? Do I need to stop letting him know about my gigs and truly, finally go NC?
Lily,
I would go NC with this guy. He is not putting forth much effort. You are better than his crumbs. Even though he shows up to your gigs, it’s not enough. Don’t waste any more of your time analyzing. Find someone that purses you and makes you feel good. In my experience, relationships that work flow naturally. Let the next guy work for you. You are the prize.
Lily, your email wouldn’t be taken as a break-up email. What I take from it is that it’s clear you are very invested, and you are saying you will take anything he has to offer and will demand nothing from him. He has taken you up on this deal, but that does NOT make it ok on his part.
I think any decent person would step away and go NC after that message if he didn’t want to commit, and would in any case RESPOND (common courtesy, what you do for friends who are anxious, be it a response with anger, regret, confusion or whatever), rather than scaling back and carrying on the ambiguity. The exact same thing happened to me for too long. Letters and emails ignored.
We all know instinctively that NC is the only way when you can’t give someone what they want and you have got close to them and ‘care’, we thank them for it in hindsight, but somehow this type of man breaks that rule, normalises unacceptable behaviour, and keeps a toe in. It shows a serious lack of empathy (I call it heartless). That’s who he is.
Lily
This my take on it – he turned down the birthday tickets because it was too much of a statement. If you go to a concert with a woman on your birthday – wow, SHE COULD BE PERCEIVED AS YOUR GIRLFRIEND. OMG!!
Turning up for gigs as and when he feels like it , without confirming whether he”ll be there, is … teeny tiny crumbs.
Beyonce sings “if you liked it then you should have put a ring on it.”
Well, I say “If you like it then you could put a date, a time and a venue on it.” And, yes, I’m wrestling with this myself.
He didn’t take the above email as a break up email. Whatever its ambiguity, it’s clearly from a woman wanting more from a man than he cares to give, while still holding out the friend card in a pitiful (I don’t mean that in a sarky way) attempt to get some crumbs from him.
I feel sorry for you. Feel sorry for yourself and nuke him! All these gigs you go to – you’re bound to meet someone else once you’re in a better frame of mind and not tying yourself in knots trying to pretend something is happening when it’s not.
Lily,
Here’s what I notice about this situation:
He isn’t ASKING YOU when your gigs are. He isn’t seeking YOU out to tell you how he feels and what he thinks. He isn’t asking YOU what you think and feel.
If he shows up to your gig, it’s probably because it’s convenient for him and a nice ego stroke to know the singer. Of course he isn’t going to tell you he’s coming, because he wants to do things entirely on HIS terms!
It keeps you guessing, your mind on him, while he has absolutely NO investment in the *cough* “relationship” or “friendship”. He may have genunine feelings for you, but feelings do not a relationship make.
You don’t have a “relationship” and you know it, hence your use of quotes. There is nothing to bring up.
The birthday text reminds me of Nat’s post:
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/dealing-with-happy-birthdays-and-big-occasions-to-send-a-card-or-text-or-not-to-send/
and the photo at the top which says, “Happy Birthday to you…anyway…I hope this gets you to remember/notice me.” It reeks of desperation, and to quote the above article, “You are using an occasion no matter how flimsy, to send a white flag or more than likely a “Hey! Look at me I’m still here!” or “Surely you can’t dare to ignore me now that I’ve sent you this card/message and will have to contact me now?” or basically “I still want your arse!”
Let this guy go and open up some space in your mind and your life for someone who actually wants something mutual with you. Someone available won’t confuse you, he will let you feel confident and secure in the relationship and let trust and communication grow.
You need to start seeing men like dogs or horses, not teddy bears. Only then will things start to make sense. For instance, when you have a dog, do you let him do whatever he wants or do you train him, let him know who´s boss and what the rules are?
Exactly.
Otherwise you´ll end up eaten by the animal, or kicked in the stomach if it´s a horse (not sure if you have experience with horses, but it´s the same principle).
So this means, first of all teach him to respect you – don´t ever send him any email/im/whatever again, unless it´s in reply to something he sent you.
Don´t bring the relationship up again, just act cheerful around him, don´t give him the droopy martyr eyes.
Then, if he ever tries to get close to you again (which he most probably will), hopefully you´ll have enough self esteem back not to accept any of the BS.
Sorry if I´m being harsh, but for your own sake you need to cut the doormat mentality! And don´t ever send a guy a long email, they´re just not good with words, only actions convince them (actions like seeing you going NC on them).
Grace that just made me cry because it is the truth and it is so hard to face. Thank you
Thank you so much everyone! Each one of you is absolutely right – I guess I already know the truth, I know better, it’s just hard – so it was good to hear y’all put it in your own eloquent words 🙂
I think I’m beginning to figure out my part in all this though… I read on this site that “unavailable people tend to get involved with unavailable people” – I’m afraid this is true. I’ve been just as emotionally unavailable and guarded as he has been. I see that I’d rather try to support and fill someone else’s needs than open up and expose my own needs, desires and vulnerability.
I need to learn to teach men to respect me – I do the opposite of this by being too agreeable and overly doting (classic Florence Nightingale). I guess I do this because I’m looking for emotional fulfillment outside of myself. I did not teach this guy to respect me, I taught him to disrespect me, that it’s ok. But it’s NOT OK! I need to stop trying to collect crumbs! Fortunately I’ve stopped giving myself away, unfortunately not before he started to lose respect for me. I’m so embarrassed. So, now, holding my tail between my legs I just need to move on with what I’ve learned and start to heal so I can feel like a whole person on my own again.
Lily etc.,
I’m turning up a bit late on this thread but it strikes a chord with me… I agree with everything that’s been said already (Grace is spot on, as usual!). I too feel sympathy for you Lily, cos I know exactly where you’re at. I used to send these kind of emails to my ex EUM in the early days of the relationshit. He never bothered his arse with any of my emails pouring out my heart to him. I complained that he never bothered his arse about anything I had to “say” to him and he never bothered his arse about that either. We (or I) continued in an on and off crappy situation, such as the one you speak of, for the best part of a decade. I now haven’t seen him in over a year and I’m still waiting (not) to have the “talk”!
Mainly though, what I want to say is what the hell is wrong with ultimatums anyway? He’s either in or he’s out. And same for us. We are either in or we are out. These guys who would string you along with their ‘ambiguous’ (it’s not really ambiguous) behaviour need to be told this: You’re either in you’re out. Not next week, not next month, not next year, not next effing decade – right here right now – in or out? Thing is though, that with these guys like yours and mine, Lily, we already know the answer to that, so we need to pay attention and we need to apply the same ultimatum to ourselves – and get the hell out (cos he’s laid his “out” card already, quite a number of times? Why don’t you/we see it yet? That’s the problem, so the problem is not what you think it is!). Get away from this guy. Don’t tell him when your gigs are. Ignore him. There are better men out there!
@Fearless – Seriously! I have been in an “ambiguous” relationship for nearly 8 months now (with 6 months of non-ambiguity to start). Why is it that if a guy says he’s in – and then moves to ambiguity – he then calls me “demanding” for expecting him to be in or out?!? As Elle stated: one of the worst parts about being in an ambiguous, powerless relationship is that day-to-day pain. I am daily in pain because I have NO SAY WHATSOEVER (realizing I can opt out but meaning no say in the relationship). And it always seems that they wait until I am 100% completely invested because they have shown the same, that they then blow cold and can’t understand why I am emotional all the time.
It is so extremely hurtful to never know when I will see him again, when he might have time to schedule me in, or when he will even call, or what on earth he is doing when he isn’t with me. And somehow through all this I am expected to be happy and cheerful (yes, that’s what he tells me) until he can clear his mind and decide if he “can’t live without me” (his words again). He has stated he wants to start over and rebuilt our relationship in order to figure out if this could potentially work. Why?!? How?!?! This hurts me deeply.
I feel like a fool that I would miss someone and desire to spend more time with a person who can’t even decide if he misses me enough on a daily basis to want to be with me. I honestly don’t want to be the type of woman who is willing to put up with this type of behavior. But here I am, putting up with it. All in the hopes that he might actually decide he wants to be with me. And afraid that if I do walk away, he will never come after me.
And why is it I am questioning wether it is ok for me to tell someone they need to decide if they are in this or not. Does that make me demanding like he says? Or is this a reasonable?
lillian, i was in an ambiguous relationship for 2 years…. i also thought that i would be ‘demanding’ if i questioned it, so i kept silent. wrong move!! .but you’ve been with this guy for 8 months!!! and thats plenty of time on his behalf to make a decision about you!!!
“”it is so extremely hurtful to never know when I will see him again, when he might have time to schedule me in, or when he will even call, or what on earth he is doing when he isn’t with me.””
lillian , i was in the exact same position. him rostering me on after dinner, after he saw his friends, after his party, ..it was always after after after…
you dont see it now, but you need a complete break from this relationship to get rid of the toxicity of it…now, my mr EUM hasn’t contacted me for months and i did break apart for a while, but im actually ok now…i was crying and crying and losing weight upon a few days ago when i heard he was in another relationship via facebook….didnt even bother ending it with me.. and i was desperately in love with him….i would drop anything to see him when he ‘schedualed’ me in…
its soo wrong wrong wrong lillian…now, i feel healthy in many ways….i feel i have boundaries and in order to get boundaries, you need to distance yourself from him otherwise you’re going to keep being caught in it all… each time i saw him, it was like “ok, im going to have boundaries and i kept being seduced every time”.for me, the sex kept me still tied to him..its complete madness and i didnt realise it then, but now i do…
i say, you need to have a real serious conversation with him….let him know your feelings and dont be persuaded by him.. if he wants you, he’ll be with you and he’ll work it out with you
Lilian
I did this for ten years:
“… And afraid that if I do walk away, he will never come after me.”
Eventually I realised I had to confront this fear (the alternative had become unthinkable; finally what was left of my pride kicked in and I found BR. (I wanted to conquer this fear, to be fearless, hence my user name!) I walked away. He never came after me. The result is that I am not afraid anymore! I have no regrets (other than not walking away much sooner!)
I know that if I hadn’t faced and walked I’d still be hanging around in the wings of his life waiting to be valued enough for him to commit to me. He wasn’t going to do that – ever – and finally that reality had sunk in and I knew I had to face it or lose myself in doormat status for good.
You are obviously not at the point where the balance has tipped. You want to make good on your investment. But it’s a very bad investment, and the more/longer you invest in a situation that is not paying off the less value you place on yourself and the less value he places on you (he knows that a woman who thought more of herself would expect and go find a better relationship – she would have flushed him already!), so you are putting in a lot of effort for the reverse effect that you imagine you are gaining. For every day that you accept ‘less than’ from him is just another day that you re-affirm to him that you are worth less… and less… and less… You are engaged in a self-defeating exercise.
Get the focus off what he wants/thinks and start putting it on to what YOU want/think. He doesn’t get to decide if you’re being silly/emotional/demanding. YOU deserve a relationship based on care, trust, respect and love. He’s not got that for you, so walk! If you stick around, you are communicating a very powerful message to him (and yourself!) that this is all you are worth. Is it all you are worth? I don’t think so and neither should you. I don’t care what he thinks (and neither should you).
I think I know if I walk away he WON’T come after me and the pain that will accompany that action scares me. Although staying in this for any longer and missing out on opportunities on finding a relationship I do deserve also scares me. I feel like I am in limbo right now holding onto hope that we will work out and he will make right on all his promises and commitments. The rational side of me sees this for what it is and knows that I deserve more (and he doesn’t deserve all that I give). The emotional side seems to take over and wants to keep proving to him that I am everything he told me he wanted – and everything he ever wanted was me.
I know I will get sick and tired of being sick of tired of this situation (soon) and I will find the strength and courage to move on. This community has been a great tipping point to my state of mind and self assurance. Thanks for your support and words of encouragement.
Lily, I know a lot about being a doormat, its hard to learn how to respect yourself first but that’s where it all starts to build from. Natalie mentions love care trust and respect-treat yourself to those first, then look for that in your next relationship. It has to come from you to make it stick. Its been a hard lesson, I’m 48 and still learning it. I recently ended a relationship with an EU man. I keep slipping back but I know that I’m worth more. I don’t need the drama, the questionable behavior, the feeling like I am not appreciated, just for a little bit of his time. Make it hard to contact him-delete his numbers, emails, pack away all reminders of him you may have, and every day it gets a little easier. This morning I finally woke up without having him on my mind first thing, a small victory, but there’s a whole lot of opportunities ahead. I don’t want to waste any more time on something that isn’t going anywhere for me any more. Look inside, learn what works for you and don’t let anyone make you give up your goals without good cause or compromise you can live with. Forgive yourself, you’re still learning, sometimes we learn through our mistakes and that’s ok.
I used to spend a LOT of time trying to read my partner’s mind. I have been in a few ambiguous relationships and you just described what I was doing to a T.
A friend directed me to your blog and I am now in the best relationship of my life.
Shortly into the relationship, I realized that I no longer spend my time searching his eyes and trying to read his mind. I know exactly what is going on and where I stand!! It’s wonderful and I am finally really happy. I’m not just telling myself that I’m happy anymore, I’m not just settling for what I can get (crumbs), I have finally found my Mr. Right.
Im buying this book!
Hi Natalie I have just read – The Dreamer and the Fantasy Relationship.
Well boy did I see myself, classic dreamer. Reality started to emerge 2 years ago and I settled in to watch the moves of my then crush. The 2 years before that I was deep in lust, want, desire and future dreaming mode. This man back then was in my mind the whole package if anything I was the person who needed to fix up. My interest begun 5 years after the death of my sister and during the time my father was ill then died. Now I can see that I needed something/one to hold on to only there was never any committment, clarity from the start and whilst I initiated events in truth I was aware that I was not in a healthy place so whilst I dreamed and desired I too was never really committed (fear and a 6 sense that something did not feel right but was nonetheless familiar). In the last 2 years I really started to wake up to my own emotional unavailability and thus became increasingly more open which resulted in my becoming clear that he was not for me. As I smothered myself in self love balm I uncovered that what I thought was confidence is in fact arrogance (he did tell me that but I failed to listen), the laid back approach is pure laziness, the he’s just shy manifest into playa, poor me, i’m sick so nurse me and I’ll just sit here until my needs get met. For a time I was very angry believing I had been duped. Truth is I created the fantasy and was now having to deal with the real person my beliefs, values and patterns. Having been the fall back girl for sometime I was not surprised that he move into yet another relationship. He had hoped that I would compete for his affections so played the arse in front of the new girl I did not play which surprised him as the old me would have. New me saw it coming and while my ego was annoyed for a while I am glad I was rejected as he connected best with the wounded, angry, scarastic, don’t do conflict, doubting, people pleasing me. I have been clear in the last 2 years about what I want in a relationship and who I choose to be. Like really did attract like, we no longer connect. I was sad at first until I understood why. I now let go of the Dreamer and the Fantasy Relationship and am fallback girl no more.