Many of us engage in what I call relationship insanity which is where you carry the same baggage, beliefs, attitudes and behaviours, choose variations of the same person different package and then expect different results. When we want to experience real change in our lives and break the pattern, it means having to get out of our uncomfortable comfort zone but at the same time we’re afraid of the unknown better possibilities of a better comfortable.
To bring about real change in your life, you have to get uncomfortable and essentially feel some short, maybe even some medium term discomfort to feel the long term gain.
The strange thing though is that in spite of knowing what makes you uncomfortable and knowing what creates pain, you may have been throwing yourself into oncoming emotional traffic and wondering why you’re getting run down, putting your hand in the proverbial fire and hoping it won’t get burned but then being surprised (and hurt) when it does, or starting to make changes and then panicking at the fact that you’re responsible for your own experience and quickly retreating to the familiarity of a painful relationship.
Why do we worry? Because we create obstacles about what is in the way of making change come about. We come up with umpteen reasons for why the fear exists.
As a reader said to me a long time ago, “Fear is just a feeling” and truth be told, we often exaggerate the fear so we can stay in our comfort zone.
So for example, I regularly hear from people who are struggling with the whole idea of cutting contact or accepting someone is who they are and they’re not going to change into the person who they want them to be. When they say why they’re afraid or why they can’t make changes for themselves, it’s because:
He won’t leave me alone. (Initially no, but unless they’re a stalker, cutting contact will eventually communicate that the door is closed. And actually you’d be surprised how much someone will leave you alone when you really show through actions that you want nothing more to do with them.)
It’s really difficult to break up. (It is but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do it! The pain doesn’t last forever!)
He says it will be different this time. (Do you have confidence in ‘this time’? Do you have evidence to support what he says?)
If it were me I’d want them to give me another chance. I’d want someone to believe in me. (This is projection and denial which are two dangerous reasons to stay in a relationship)
We have a lot of history together. (And what has your history taught you?)
We have an amazing connection and he’s got so many good things about him except for his assclown ways. (Yeah…be careful of that ‘except’ bit – it’s called denial.)
If he didn’t have all of his issues we would be working. (Denial and absolving responsibility)
If I can convince her to go for counselling then I know this could work. (Denial and absolving responsibility)
I need to gather up my strength. (Resigning ones self to helplessness)
I need to save up some money. (You will never have ‘enough’ if you rely on this reason)
I need to understand what has been happening. (But you don’t need to stay in a relationship to do that plus you’re likely looking for validation).
I don’t doubt that some of these reasons are legitimate but at times they are excuses for why you’re afraid and really what you’re worried about is your ability to cope with the situation or to be responsible for your own experience. Even though technically you are already responsible for your own experience, often when we stay in situations that detract from us, it’s ‘easier’ because we can blame it on other external obstacles that are in the way of us making change and that appear insurmountable right now.
Don’t get me wrong – your reasons may be legitimate but they’re not the core reason.
A few months back I talked to a woman who has been trying to salvage her broken relationship with her Mr Unavailable. They shared a child. Unfortunately this man had a number of children that he didn’t support and when I asked her why she kept trying with him and why she would cut contact and then go back, she said that she was worried about her child not knowing his father. While this was true, it wasn’t actually her real reason but it sounded more legitimate than saying ‘I’m afraid of admitting the reality of this man and that the relationship is over and that I have to start again’.
When she admitted this to herself but also realised that if she did want her child to know his father that it was solvable without there having to be a relationship between her and him, she stopped trying to fix a broken man and a broken relationship and focused on healing herself. She’s now moving on with her life – unsurprisingly, her Mr Unavailable is still exactly the same.
Much like when we have negative beliefs about love, relationships and ourselves and they permeate our interactions, we often can’t say that what we believe is a certain truth no more than we can say that we have absolute proof that what we’re afraid of is insurmountable.
Don’t hold yourself back based on fear because when you live your life out of fear and base your decisions around it, it’s a half life.
Focus on building your self-esteem so that you can have confidence in your decisions and even when you’re worried, you’ll find the courage to take a leap of faith on yourself and get uncomfortable to make real change.
Five years ago I was afraid that I would never get better from my illness and I’d be on steroids for the rest of my days and might even keel over at 40. I was afraid I may not ever have children, that I would always be in pain, and that I’d forever walk around with a secret neon sign calling Mr Unavailables and assclowns. I convinced myself it wasn’t possible to recover from the heartbreak and that I’d never love again. I was afraid I couldn’t or wouldn’t be any better than I was and I’d end a up failure. But whatever fears I had, when I looked at my relationship pattern, I had enough evidence to know that I didn’t want to continue the pattern and that surely it could get better than this. If I didn’t start believing in me even though even at that point I didn’t even love myself yet, I’d still be pining for my ex, or mixed up with some other Mr Unavailable and paying attention to doctors that told me I had no other options than the ones they’d given me.
I had to trust myself. I had nothing else to trust in other than fear and I figured I’d been doing that for long enough and getting very dubious results, so surely trusting my gut, instinct, and intuition and busting through the fear and getting uncomfortable, while treating myself with care and respect couldn’t be a bad thing?
Don’t hold yourself back. It’s not ‘everything else’ holding you back. What can you do for you today? How can you overcome your concerns? Because you know what, you can overcome your concerns if you start thinking about how to cope instead of focusing on the fear or the existence of the problem itself.
Your thoughts?
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These last few posts have been great as far as the ‘OK, so I know I have been in a crap situation, and even allowed a crap situation to fester, but now I would like to move forward’ situation is concerned. It’s really useful (thank you) to be grounded in day-to-day, concrete and small beliefs, decisions and actions. Otherwise, the task of sorting out the big issues, in an abstract way, like self-esteem, the past, the allergies to rejection etc. can seem overwhelming…and, dare I say, thinking about and dissecting the behaviour of one’s ex-AC can become alluring by comparison.
I think that’s where I am at: the point where I have accepted that it’s over, and have made some sort of peace with it (more or less), but almost hanging onto it because it’s more familiar than the questions about being on my own and sorting out a life without the infrastructure and purpose (however flimsy) of a relationship.
Love this. In my current relationship, I’m reevaluating lots of past patterns, communicating honestly with my very communicative and honest partner, and resolving many fears. It IS frightening. Yet it is the healthiest relationship I’ve ever had with someone.
Maybe I’ll get used to being treated well at some point and begin to always expect it! (Feeling like it’s deserved is a new and wondrous feeling.)
You know whats great about that T – you will come to the point that the communication becomes easier. The more you deal up front with issues that arise in all relationships the simplier it seems to resolve them. Half the fight is the fear of saying something that might rock the boat. When you get past that fear (which in a healthy relationship in not a biggie deal) you will find resolutions to easier faster with alot less stress. My EA man and I resolve our issues with honest open discussions respecting each other’s right to speak and be heard. We can agree to disagree and compromise on what works best for both. You can only get there when you face the fear – kick it to the curb and face up. If you want you needs met you need to express them – expectations lead to dissappointments. They cannot read your mind so speak it!
NML what a Great post this is!!
Movedup. Looks like you are doing wonderful. Glad to see you back here.Miss you tons! And I so agree with your post by the way.
*Hugs*
WOW. This post is very encouraging. It’s a matter of taking one step back to take 10 steps forward………..unfortunately it’s a lot easier said than done, but it CAN be done. Thanks for sharing your own story. You’ve come a long way!
Rofl. This is the exact situation I find myself in right now (yeah, I’m still not seeing the reality just yet!). The “guy” says it will be different this time. But the real question, I suppose, if he does do actual change, is whether this is a temporary or a permanent difference. After all, humans can change when they want to, but sometimes they still falter. Or sometimes some people say and act like they changed in the beginning of god-knows-what-number attempt at this relationship….and go back to being their old selves once you have completely returned.
Maybe people do change, and for you, but this is a very small exception. The risks are even greater.
I am on week 3 of No Contact. A month ago, I couldn’t fathom how I would live without him. However, it’s turned out way better than I expected. My stress is gone and it is wonderful to concentrate 100% on my own life instead of being sucked dry by my exEUM.
When I started this journey, I was devastated. That devastation turned into relief when I started to realize who he really was and how things really were. I know that “fear” this article speaks of very well.
Now, I am looking out for “me” because nobody was. I see it as a journey of discovery and look forward to moving on.
Just want to tell the women out there who are afraid of living without a man who tears their life apart: the better “you” is waiting. You DON’T have to allow people into your life who treat you this way and you CAN live without him.
How do you do it NML? I feel a feeling and then here is a post waiting to pull me right out of it!
I have been feeling the fear the last few days. I fell off the NC wagon and now I am back on it again (day 4). I don`t regret it though – I gave him another chance, he blew it, and not only did it confirm that NC is the right way to go, it even gave me an epiphany moment (I sent an email when I was dashing to ER earlier this week – he didn`t even respond.)
Now I am worried that I am never going to be able to feel these feelings again….but you know, looking into my past I remember feeling that many times before and it always proved not to be the case. I am starting to get a glimmer of hope that I can get this EU scumbag out of my head and out of my life for good. It feels good!
such a good post as always. I am struggling though and need some insight. My eum openly says that he does not want a girlfriend and that we are not together. But he talks to me everynight and we sleep together whenever he decides he wants to. I know he is bad for me but i cant seem to let go because we talk everynight and seem to have a connection there. Now I found out he texts other girls and i’m pretty sure he would be sleeping with others too. I just cant trust him and get so fearful when i know he is out of town or if we dont talk for a night. (fearful that he is sleeping with other girls) But then i have to remind myself that we are not together and i cant expect anything from him. I guess i’m trying to find a way to get myself out of this situation. I feel that if i cut the contact he will see me as a bitch and I will feel responsible for it not working out. I’m gonna go crazy if i cant get out of this cycle soon!
Wow. Amber, you took the words right out of my mouth. I am in exactly the same situation and am so full of fear of saying the wrong thing, doing the wrong thing, to chase him away that i feel paralysed.
NML, you continue to give me the inspiration i need to make the right decisions. Thanks.
Really? My guy will disappear sometimes and i cant help but look at his facebook and he is always flirting with other girls and organising things that dont include me. I’m just not part of his life and thats the way he wants it. there is still this part of me though that cant see clearly enough that he is just not available and i can do better. Anyone have any tips to help in that area. I can see it intellectually but i just cant seem to get it through to my core beliefs.
Amber,
I have been in a 5, almost 6 months NC with someone who was so hard for me to see was EU and hot and cold. The hardest part for me was that I questioned how he could be EU but that I had a part, didn’t I? It’s talked about in this blog (Love it!) and has really helped me to see that EU men date, well, EU women- water seeks its own level. So that was where I could make a beginning of how to really break through my denial. It has taken alot! of work on myself in these past months but I have gained strength and knowledge that I was afraid because I couldn’t trust myself or my sense of the reality of the situation-affirmations and daily learning new beliefs based on my new behavior have really served me with this lack of trust in myself. It has been about getting down to my values and asking myself what I am afraid of in having a relationship where the other person *is* available? What would happen if I had a relationship where I didn’t have to yearn, pine, twist myself into a pretzel? Those are some of the questions that have started to help me gain some solid ground from intellectually understanding to core belief and head’s up-the feeling of hoping, wanting, yearning for him did not go away over night- I have had some good support around me who have let me know that was normal (women in healthy LTR) but I liken it to building a muscle when you’re so used to using another one, It takes time, it’s hard work, some days it’s going to feel really sore-easy does it on those days- good luck I understand-it’s scary to think we are worth more than certain behaviors but the fact is we are-faith, time, uncomfortable action have started to truly show me that!
He may or may not see you as a bitch if you dump him. But I’m quite sure that right now he sees you as a soft touch that he can exploit at his convenience.
I think I’d rather be the bitch!
I`m with Grace! But I have to ask – how is setting some boundaries being a bitch? How can you dump someone you are not “with” anyway?!
Definitely – I would also rather be thought of as a bitch than a soft touch! NML wrote about not being able to win with some men – you are either in the “easy” bin or the “hard work” bin – my EUM I think has relegated me to the hard work bin and that`s why I haven`t heard from him recently – I am certain he has found someone “easier”. But you know – I would much rather be in the hard work bin! And in any case, I have now relegated him to my “no longer required” bin – I visualise him sitting in it and it feels great!
Too true! I would rather be seen as ‘that bitch who doesn’t want me’ than ‘that doormat with no self esteem, who will never speak up and who will just lay down and take it’. I’m utterly ashamed that i enabled him to think of me that way for even a second!
I really love that idea of EUM actually sitting in a bin 🙂 possibly covered in potato peelings – haha!
“I feel that if i cut the contact he will see me as a bitch and I will feel responsible for it not working out”
He does not want you as a girlfriend – he has told you this BUT he acts like you are using you as a shoulder to cry on and have sex with. You are complicit in this but you also realise you are also playing on his terms otherwise why would you give a flying one what he thinks?
So what is he thinks of you as a bitch? That at least implies some sort of emotion. How would you feel if you thought he would not care less if you vanished? I’m guessing that would make you feel worse.
Lady you know you have to walk away.
thanks for your encouragement. Its so true i do need to walk away. I’m trying to work out what is holding me back…. I think its because i’m holding on to hope that he will change but even if he does change i guess he wont see me with respect or care because i havent been respecting or caring for myself.
He WILL change! If you hang around long enough, he’ll find someone he actually wants to be with, and it’ll be as if you never existed. How is that gonna sit with you? How will you feel then?
You’re gonna have to be a rock, muster up some dignity and leave with it – or you’re gonna sink. You will get hurt. Please leave now.
I think when I read some of the posts that we are talking about dealing with the issue of grief which is something that is very hard for people and we don’t talk about it in our culture. No matter how bad the relationship is you WILL have to grieve it and you will have to trust that it will eventually feel better. I think many women would rather just stay with a guy they know is not that wonderful than to have to feel those awful feelings of loss. Three years ago I reunited with my high school love who was a wonderful EA boy back then. Unfortunately life and a terrible and painful divorce created a EU man which was very confusing to me and I struggled to understand who he was now (oh to have had this website….). After a very difficult and painful year of being together, in July of 2007 he took his own life to the utter shock of everyone around him. I had no choice but NC. I had no answers, no resolution, no closure, nothing. I tell this story to tell you that you CAN do it. In the same 4 month period I got cancer, almost lost my house, lost my dog and cat but I survived just by putting one foot in front of the other and trusting that I would get through this. And I did. Today I am out of debt, cancer free and happier than I have ever been. Grief doesn’t last and the only way out is through. You can do it.
Goodness, that’s a mammoth series of losses. You deserve to be proud of your courage and mental self-discipline, and it’s great that you’ve found your way through and even prospered.
Thank you for sharing this story. There is nothing harder to understand than someone you love giving up. I believe that what you wrote about is the missing thing that they don’t know. You have articulated that one thing perfectly; that one must keep going on despite disappointments, emotional pain, confusion and loss.
The discouragement of watching someone give up by choosing suicide is known to trigger strong feelings in others, sometimes even including suicidal feelings in those left behind. I do not believe it is a coincidence that you almost lost your own life, nor I do not believe it is a coincidence that you recovered.
I am sorry for your loss. Thank you for sharing your very important story of recognizing hope and perseverance in the most difficult of experiences.
Although we want to love and be loved, we also fear both. If you’ve ever been rejected and carry the fear of rejection inside you then you are prone to fail in future relationships. Take the Fear out of you as it is rightly said in the post…it is just a feeling and overcoming it is the only way out.
Amber,
Listen to your own words:
“But then i have to remind myself that we are not together and i cant expect anything from him.”
This is HIS agenda – YOU ARE NOT TOGETHER!
He doesn’t want you to expect anything from him. That is one of his boundaries: He is accountable for nothing and no-one. He is repsonsible for nothing and no-one.
And you are seriously worried about what he would think of you if you broke things off with him; he might think you are a “bitch”!! Right now he is thinking you must be a fool, a walk-over, a doormat and an easy lay. If you stopped seeing him he will not think you are a bitch, he will think you have finally realised that he is treating you like crap and that you have finally found your self-respect from where you lost it (maybe under your bed!).
Is what YOU think, Amber, not important? What do YOU think of him? Do YOU think his behaviour towards you is admirable, or even considerate? Don’t YOU think he is behaving very badly? Don’t YOU think you should tell him so and tell him to sling his hook for that reason?
Also… of course you can’t trust him! Ther’s nothing to trust.. he is not caring if you trust him! He is doing what he likes, what he wants (selfishly) and so are you!
Good luck. I don’t wish to be harsh.
xx
No i definatley needed the harsh and true words so thankyou for taking the time to write 🙂 you have helped me for sure and right now I am realising that i can decide to make this as big or as small as i want and i am even feeling right now that he can shove it up his A##. Its no big deal if someone doesnt want to be with you….but it is a big deal when they manipulate you into hanging around for their needs and you allow them too. How dare he know fully that i want more and he knows he never will yet he still does the manipulating to make me feel bad for trying to get away from him……and more importantly how dare i let someone do that to me. I am a fabulous woman who can do much much better……and even if i cant i can have sleep and joy and peace and consistent emotions on my own which is much better the roller coaster ride of the EUM
Yes, Amber, you are a fabulous woman and you can do much better! You could hardly do any worse than give yourself, lock, stock and barrel to a guy who doesn’t want to be with you properly in a bonafide, real relationship! What does he think you are running here? – a charity for men who can’t grow up won’t grow up? A free counselling service come knocking shop??!!
You can have expectations of your own, you know – it is allowed!!
If you are still in contact with him, tell him he is not meeting YOUR expectations of what a relationship should be, tell him he is taking all the benefits of a relationship FROM YOU and contributing nothing – worse than nothing – in return.
Tell him you are not his friggin wet nurse! Tell him his ‘party is now over’ and start looking out for yourself. Start by setting yourself clear boundaries – read Natalie’s stuff on this, and by actively working on your sense of self-worth – there are some good books out there.
Best
xx
Thank you Natalie. I will read this over and over. And I would just like to say to all those struggling with cutting contact and ending the vicious cycle of going back and forth with someone who can’t be who you want them to be, and doesn’t behave in ways that show you that they have both feet in the relationship with you- stop and think is this good for me? It may take several attempts to severe the bond but keep working at it. You will get to the point where enough is enough. Work on accepting the reality, drop the illusions and take control and cut contact -you can do it for yourself and for your own sanity. Grieve the loss and keep your faith close at hand. You will get to a place of peace and the pain of the loss will lessen little by little. Believe me -I know first hand. It was a long journey out but I am finally free and healing. No contact truly means no new pain.
Blessings to all and peace.
Dawn
AMEN Dawn.
When I first broke up with my assclown, I focused alot of attention on his fears – his fear of intimacy, his fear of commitment. Now I am looking at my own fears. My fear of being lonely. My fear of being unloved. Its much harder, but its a problem I can do something about. As I read through this site, I have found many things that have helped me – one of the first was realizing that my assclown, who I thought was so special and unique – wasn’t. He was just a stereotype, a cliche whose behaviour was sadly predictable (just not by me at the time). The second was that I had really wanted to be special and unique – I wanted validation from him. I would be the one to change him. He would see how special and valuable I was, and make a commitment to me, when he had been unable to with every women before. The third was my illusions – I was clinging to the perfect guy, who, once I got real, I noticed had only really been around for about the first 6 weeks. After that, he began to show his true colors but I just didn’t want to see it or believe it.
It was easy to see his fears, easy to focus on them. Now I am confronting my own. I am grateful for the guidance and support this site provides. Some things have been hard to read – real eye openers – but everything has helped me grow and heal and see him for what he truly was – a complete waste of my time. I no longer obsess about what he was doing or whether he misses me. I know he doesn’t. I am happy to say that I am reaching a point where I can say the same about him. I would love to see a post about how to deal with my own embarrassment – I believed this clown and actually praised and defended him to friends and colleagues. Now I just feel silly. I also hung in far longer and kept hoping long after I should have and am embarrassed about how I behaved in front of him (I have to work with him and still see him every day). My biggest regret is that I didn’t have the strength or self-esteem to walk away right away. Even he knows how cheaply I sold myself in the hopes of keeping it going. Please, Natalie – address this idea.
Hi Dee,
I know how you feel, I have been where you are…
Don’t feel silly! The AC is the one that should feel silly.
So, you made a mistake, you are human. Forgive yourself!
Reinforce your boundaries, be the best you can be, and forget that this AC was ever in your life. His opinion as to what happened does not matter. Remember he IS an AC! Who cares what he thinks! You will come to realize, as you get stronger that what your ex thinks means absolutely nothing at all. Just give yourself time.
Everyone has “in hindsight” feelings, please don’t let them derail you. I know that you learned from your mistakes, so why not give yourself a break? 🙂
Take care,
TJ
@ TJ
I agree with everything you said.
Excellant insight and advice.
@ Dee
I too hung in far longer and kept hoping also. I didn’t walk away soon enough. I too felt stupid and weak for not getting out sooner. But it was all apart of the journey that got me out in the end. My point is you had to deal with so many feelings and thoughts and you can’t put a time line on the process. I think you have a good understanding of your expierence. I understand the shameful feelings that you are talking about also. I had them too. I also beat myself up for it off and on. Don’t beat yourself up. You DO have self esteem and you DO have strength!!!! Who cares how long it took you to get out-you did and that’s the most important thing. Your learning and growing. Please go easy on yourself- Blessings to you.
Hi Dee
‘As I read through this site, I have found many things that have helped me – one of the first was realizing that my assclown, who I thought was so special and unique – wasn’t. He was just a stereotype, a cliche whose behaviour was sadly predictable (just not by me at the time).’
When I read these words of yours it was like reading my own. (Strange that we’ve both got the same online name, I had to do a doubletake! ). This site has really helped me with this exact same realisation.
So much of what Natalie says applies exactly to the person I split up with. I’d never come across this kind of male behaviour before and thought it was down to the unique mental confusion of this special man I was involved with and who I’d spent so much time trying to help (at his request!). Discovering that his behaviour wasn’t special to him and was just the typical behaviour of a certain kind of dodgy, best-avoided man has been so liberating.
Natalie’s articles have been a godsend in the understanding they have brought me. And all the women posting on here are so wise, articulate and deep-thinking. How did any of us ever get involved with men who behave like over-grown toddlers? They don’t seem to have an ounce of wisdom amongst them!
I love what Fearless says: ‘Women need to start expecting men to act like men, i.e. grown up adult people and not pathetic, selfish, spoiled brats.’ This is exactly what one of my male friends said to me when he heard about the situation I’d ended up in. It’s like we’re indulging these kinds of men. In a way we’re being a bit patronizing towards them too, believing they can’t help their behaviour. Why can’t they help their behaviour? Everyone else manages. What makes them so special that they get to behave like this and treat women in this way? They can help it, they’ve just learned that they can get away with it. Whether it’s conscious or not, it’s a crafty way of controlling and getting to do what the hell they like.
Maybe it’s our self-sacrificing maternal instincts that enable us to make concessions for this kind of behaviour? Or maybe it’s just being overly compassionate. But when our patience wears thin, they know they can move on and use their little boy charm, or whatever their selling point is, on somebody else. And there always will be somebody else until we all wise up and do what Fearless says and ‘ say very early on: shape up or ship out! ‘ May the revolution start here…
Women need to be reading some of the information on this website before the first date. Maybe Natalie can do another site called ‘Warning Signs.’ The trouble is, until you’ve experienced it, you probably wouldn’t believe it could happen to you.
Thanks for a brilliant website Natalie. How amazing to be helping so many people.
This little chunk of commentary is really valuable to me. Great summary (second Dee). I still wince at the thought of me being seen as, what my ex-AC said, ‘a suck up’, when I had really thought, at the time, that I was being supportive, positive and fun. (And there is still part of me that is glad that I didn’t turn into nagging cow girlfriend just to keep him in check…the only answer, I realise, is to be with someone who can be trusted with an adult, positive form of love).
In fact, I wasn’t doing too much more than I would in my healthy relationships. But I guess if he knew his heart was not in it, then my actions seemed undeserved and therefore sycophantic. Ew. I hate that, especially since, like you Dee (first Dee), if I am being honest, he was only really reliable, thoughtful and generous in the first couple of months or so, then he was primarily just going through the motions for him, trying to scale it back, get out of conversations, avoid me, make me an object of sexual appeal only, picking on me for all these warm, energetic, insightful qualities I have, making out that I wanted him to sort my life out, when, in fact, I am highly capable and manage fine. I was almost always wrong by the end of it. But I was still giving as though he was the guy at the start or as if he were as deserving as other people who are or have been in my life. And now I am on the list of women who have sucked up to this guy – he told me he had a string of women who have done this. Again – thought I would be different because I had assumed or believed (WRONGLY) that some of these other women must have super clingy or desperate or less appealing than me – that sounds horrible now, but this was a view he cultivated too, that these women weren’t right for him or were even ‘crazy’. I am now on the crazy suck-up list! ; )
So, yeah, as much as it’s starting to seem funny, I still some self-esteem and self-forgiveness work to do. I also wish the shame factor would lift. There’s one thing dealing with loss of the good parts of the person and loss of dreams/delusions, but shame seems to hinder the process of moving on. If Natalie has already written on the forgiveness of self/shame factor, could someone please send me the link? Ta.
Oh god I was just like that woman who had a child with a mr. unavailable. For a whole year I kept trying to leave, and I’d always come back. I got us a case worker, I researched on line, I blamed myself, I did anything to try to make this work and all mr. did was nothing. Not a single thing to help. I made up excuse after excuse why he was the way he was or why I had to return to this awful situation. My self esteem was SO low. He doesn’t give me any money for support either. It wasn’t until his mom passed away that I finally had the nerve to really cut all ties. I had felt so guilty in the past during our “breaks” b/c his mom loved my son so much, and I didn’t want her to suffer b/c of our problems. I had found out that he really never told any of his friends that we (my son and I) even existed. (hence why we’ve never met any of them) His family still has not met our son either and he’s two and a half at this point. There were many signs I missed and reading this was like unlocking the key to the universe. I knew I’d be sad and feeling very uncomfortable, but I had to grit my teeth and just do it, b/c he wasn’t going to change. I had to and I was finally ready. I’m happy to see I am not the only one. I feel so much better reading these stories. I still get sad from time to time, I wanted us to be a family so badly, but I count and I want to show my son a good example of self respect.
J. Christina,
What a cad! You do all the work. He suits himself. I feel for you. Women need to start expecting men to act like men, i.e. grown up adult people and not pathetic, selfish, spoiled brats. I think these men should be told very early on: shape up or ship out! He will never be of the least use to you or your wee boy – write him off; you’ll be better for it – things will be clearer for you, or you will just be endlessly frustrated, hurt and disappointed by him, and so will your son.
xx Good luck,
Hey Fearless,
Cad is putting it mildly. I am actually more than a little sad from time to time to be honest. It’s only been two months since we last spoke. I asked him to leave me a lone finally and he has done just that but it upsets me that he hasn’t asked about his son once. Part of me is pissed off he’s not begging me for forgiveness and I’ve faulterd on a few occasions sending very nasty text messages telling him how I had gotten to the point where I wanted to chew my own hand off to get away from him or just general you hurt me I can’t stand you prose. I figured I had to get it out and my poor girlfriends are sick of listening to me complain after my 5th glass of wine about it. I have to keep believing I won’t always feel this bad and I don’t feel as bad as I did in the begining, but I know I have a ways to go. I hold onto things forever. I think this forum is a much healthier outlet. I was really down in the dumps there for a while. I can’t believe I let him treat me and our son like we were nobodies!! I have my sweet pea to take care of and he needs his mom to be strong. I am so happy I found this commuinity, you have no idea. Reading everyone’s stories is encouraging and helpful and gives me hope and insight!!! Stay strong gals!
J Christina – You and your child deserve so much better. I understand how you feel – you are wavering, rebuilding your strength and self-esteem yet some part of you still wants him to acknowledge you, your pain and your worth. He likely won’t, not because you are not worthy but because he isn’t. If he were capable of making a loving commitment and showing real affection, you would not be in the boat you are in (none of us would). I, too, kept looking for my AC to validate me, acknowledge me and my pain and then I realized I was wasting my time, looking for comfort and support from someone who had proven time and time again he was NEVER going to give it, because he couldn’t and because he didn’t want to. I know you are tired of feeling this way and there are days when it feels it is never going to end but it does. One day, you will realize you deserve better, you want better and suddenly his crap is going to look like exactly what it is – not enough, no where good enough. You deserve better. Please believe that. Ride out the bad days, enjoy the good. Keep reading here. I read a couple of archived blogs every day,just to learn something new and remind myself that I am now on the right path. I know, because I feel good for the first time in a long time. I can finally be honest that, for all I wanted the relationship, I was not the least bit happy in it, nor was I proud of myself or the way I behaved. You should be proud of you. Your child is proud of you. Any man who doesn’t care about a child is simply not worth knowing or wasting time on. Save you. Help you.
Dee,
I know how you feel. I stopped talking about my EUM to my friends a long time ago, as I felt embarrassed about the situation I was in. I couldn’t defend him and I couldn’t justify myself still being with him. I hate people asking me about him – bringing him up – I skirt the “issue”.
As a result I find my friendships have suffered in that I am never truly open with my friends anymore; it’s like there is something missing from my frienships that I used to enjoy – closeness and confidences and sharing – I have stopped sharing my experiences of “life” with my friends; I keep so much bottled up inside myself, to embarrassed to talk about what is really going on with my EUM and in my own mixed up head. I find it all too humiliating to talk about.
I guess the only way to get over it is to acknowledge to yourself that you have made bad choices, stop making them, and start making better ones.
I have been seeing my EUM on and off for ten years…I am now in my late forties – I sometimes feel devasted that I gave ten years to this nonsense… but I also have to accept that I have had my own comittment issues – I got what I asked for – I ordered it – he delivered!
I think Natalie was still very young when she ‘saw the light’. I’d like to ask how one starts making the right choices, and gets over the personal and social humiliation of having made all the wrong ones for so long when you are an older woman.
Dee, I suspect you are still quite young – so my advice is ‘forget the whole damn thing’! You have learned in good time; these other people, you will find, have made a whole lot of bad choices too! And many will be involved in crap relationships – you have freed yourself up to make it better for yourself. Just be honest. If you are asked, say you were taken in by, and had strong feelings for what proved to be an insincere and disingenuous man, and that you do not intend making the same mistake twice!
There are better things out there for you. Go and get them and don’t look back. Look forward.
xx
Thanks for your comments everyone. Its so good to know i’m not alone. I feel embarrassed that i have been chasing him for the last few months and mistaking sexual contact for love/care. everything is definately on his terms. He just doesnt want the work involved in a relationship but still wants someone to talk to, have sex with and stroke his ego. But WE ALL DESERVE BETTER!!!
Don’t forget the reason of ” There will never be anyone else for me.” When you feel that this person, for better or worse, is your ‘soulmate,’ it becomes almost impossible to tear yourself away. If you leave, you will never have anything again. So much can be forgiven when you’ve convinced yourself that you don’t deserve more.
excellent points! The ideas behind the term/thought of “soulmates” is limiting and unrealistic. I know thinking that way made it that much harder to let go of a realtionship that wasn’t at all healthy and actually was very damaging. It prevented me from seeing the truth-that it was a “going nowhere but down relationship”.
oh yeah.. i had a same illusion and thoughts I had the feeling that only he can touch my soul and i realy felt like a part of me is going away together with him and that i will never ever find anybody who will replace this feeling.
He came in my life and first moment i saw him i thought this is my soulmate and then he start chasing me and we start to see each other and have amazing sex..i regret it so much that i did this so fast and then slowly by slowly he get’s me completely onder his control and everything went on his terms. He is an Frensh boy and everyone was telling me to be carreful he is an player and he knows how to get women where he want..but i did’t listen..because i had that damn feeling he was my soulmate and i was looking at wrong signs..
Dear Elle (and the Dees! and everyone else)
I have “enjoyed” reading all of your posts. Thanks. I like Dee’s thought that she was in love with a stereotype, a cliche! Sad isn’t? That this is all we are left with in the end – as Natalie says (somewhere) their behaviour is so consistently inconsistent we begin t accept it as normal. I could predict my EUM’s behaviour quite readily. I knew if I mentioned the “situation” the first thing he’d do is lift his jacket and head for the door.
I could never – in ten years (I am ashamed to admit) allow me to ‘have the conversation with him’. It was never “discussed” for more than one minute and thirty seconds… on a good day !! I was left full of frustration, feeling utterly impotent. and furious, so I probably never handled my next move very well. He would not respond to my “angry” messages etc.. and we would not talk sometimes for weeks and weeks.
During those spells when my EUM is doing his “not talking to me Houdini act”, a friend of mine, who had been in similar “relationship” for years, would say to me things like: “Oh dear, did you take your fluffy bunny slippers off for five minutes?!” And I think that just about sums it up!
Usually I could not contact him either for ages. I could do this wile I was still angry with him, but that usually only lasted, at best, about a month, and then I would miss him terribly, feel unloved and rejected and I would eventually send him some ‘benign’ little text message or email, which would effectively let him know it was “safe” for him to come back, which he always does. This seemed to be an unspoken understanding between us: I could see him so long as I didn’t make any demands or question him about anything. I knew it was pathetic, but I couldn’t bear to just leave it and let it go.
At the moment we are in one of these “not talking” phases. The difference now is that I have found this site and have read a few books! I now have a better idea about what/who I am dealing with and have more insight into my own behaviour.
It’s been three weeks now. Usually I would have contacted him by now. I have had my good, strong days but today is a BAD one. I want to send him a text message. I am trying not to.
I agree with what has been said here: women need to be better informed about the dangers of these “stereotypes” BEFORE they run into them. We need to do more to ensure these men have nothing to hide behind… like female ignorance!
Strangely, I have never been in any doubt that if I stayed away from my EUM he would stay away from me – that was always the problem.. he never pursues me… he WILL leave me alone, if that is what I tell him to do.. or have I just always given in before he would??
I don’t know how one deals with the embarrassment, Elle. I think you just simply “get over it”… and try to remember that this is not the sum total of who you are! It is pretty much the sum total of who he is! You have something to offer another human being that they should be glad to have – he does not!
Anyway, I do bang on… sorry… I think I am trying to do ANYTHING but send that text!!
xx
@Fearless,
Aren’t you that woman who came up with or at least shared that pizza metaphor? That bought me a few days of sanity. You have, I am sure, helped a whole lot of woman with your incisive comments.
So, I am now helping you out (or trying to) and strongly advising you: DO NOT SEND THE TEXT! Get through the day, and see tomorrow as a new day, on fair terms (that’s what I am telling myself – that the day turns up for me, so I should respect it on its terms, rather than lumbering a series of distorted yesterdays on its back).
Panic runs through the body for max 30 mins and then we’re free again (ie free to watch our thoughts again). It’s a thought – of being lonely/unloved/forgettable – that triggered the panic, but the appropriate action to soothe the panic is not to send that text. It’s like any other addiction. You know that. Also, he is not really validating you by responding, he’s catering to the most vulnerable part of you, that child-you. In fact, he doesn’t actually have the ability to validate you (or make you feel less lonely or more worthy) – he’s so goddamn concerned with his own feelings and defenses. Imagine him as someone seriously unwell in the mind, or at best a jumpy kid riding a bike with (emotional) training wheels. It’s unappealing.
You deserve to be with a man who actually gives two sh*ts (or even one sh*t) whether you’re there or not there. In fact, you need a guy who cares a great deal. This is the case for everyone, but certainly someone like you who sounds, to me, to be very perceptive, giving and dynamic. Apart from the fact that you have every right to like your own company, by sending this text, you may very well be depriving someone else from meeting you and actually enjoying you and treating you well….Why wouldn’t that happen?
Two quotes from far wiser thinkers than me:
Let go. Why do you cling to pain? There is nothing
you can do about the wrongs of yesterday. It is
not yours to judge. Why hold on to the very thing
which keeps you from hope and love?
Leo Buscaglia
[And the one I half-cited before:]
We believe that it is difficult to let go, but in truth, it is much more difficult and painful to hold and protect. Reflect upon anything in your life that you grasp hold of–an opinion, a historical resentment, an ambition, or an unfulfilled fantasy. Sense the tightness, fear, and defensiveness that surrounds the grasping. It is a painful, anxious experience of unhappiness. We do not let go in order to make ourselves impoverished or bereft. We let go in order to discover happiness and peace.
Christina Feldman
Good luck! You can get through it…
Thankyou, Elle, and ditto for you too.
I am now firm. I am not sending any text! He can shuv his cheese pizza with double sh*t where the sun don’t shine!!
I am good with metaphors (and analogies)! I can come up with loads.. it helps me to get by – to explain things to myself, though they also depress me!
Here’s one I came up with yesterday when I was feeling vulnerable:
You are standing on a platform waiting for a train. His train. You can’t start your true journey together until he brings the train into the platform, until he “arrives” and picks you up. You have bought your ticket. You have paid a lot of money. You have spent a lot of time standing on that platform.
While you stand still waiting for your train, you see the rest of the world passing in their trains; you wave!
He has said the train won’t be long. He promises the train will come. It’s just been ‘held up’. There are all kinds of reasons for the ‘hold up’. Leaves are on the track, heavy snowfall, stuck behind another train, but he assures you he is working hard – in his own way – to “sort out the situation”.
Meanwhile you wait. Patiently. You don’t want to be grumbling and moaning and intefering with him sorting it all out “in his own way”; if you do that he may decide to slow up on bringing the train, or worse, unthinkable even, he decides he’s not bringing the train at all, and you have spent all that time being patient and waiting and spent all that money and he really needs to bring the train cos it’s getting cold standing here all this time all by yourself!
It’s not long before you begin to doubt that he’s bringing the train at all, that he has ever had any intention of bringing the train. This makes you mad. You become ever more determined that your time and money and freezing half to death half the time will not be in vain. You voice your concerns that this train is not even on its way at all – you put in a complaint to the management! – management (Emotionally Unavailable Management) assures you that they cannot offer you the train right now and they can’t say for sure when it will come, only that it WILL come.
Ever more doubtful and distrusting of this (mis)management style, you start to wonder if the problem is you. You are maybe in the wrong platform? Or waiting for the wrong train? All other platforms seem to be quite busy, people are being welcomed aboard lots of other trains – with there tickets all paid up, and they haven’t been waiting here nearly as long as you – not nearly as long.
You think about giving up and going home, but, on the other hand, wouldn’t it be just like the thing… you decide you are not waiting any longer for this bloody train; grumbling and groaning and muttering and furious at your wasted time and money, you take your leave of the platform and just as you are half way down the street you hear, chooo-choooo! “All aboard”… and see the train pulling up at your spot, and you just missed it… Not wanting this to happen, you stand about a little longer wondering what the f*ck’s going on…
You decide it’s time to ask someone else about the train timetable in this station other than the usual (mis – manager – EUM) and after a little digging around, you get to the bottom of it all:
You were right all along. The train isn’t coming. You are on the wrong platform waiting for the wrong train.
But here’s the worst part:
You discover the unthinkable:
The train isn’t coming, not because of snow, or leaves, or traffic jams.
The train isn’t coming because the train hasn’t been built yet! No work has yet begun on even constructing a train, and no-one, not anyone, is making any plans to build the train for which you have a ticket, least of all the EU management, who have, as yet, no plans to get the train under construction.
There is no train. Go home now.
!!!
xxx
This may sound like madness, but if I do this, I’m not sending that text!!
Dee and Dee –
I hear what you are saying about shame and feeling embarrassed. There comes a point where you want the relationship more than you care for yourself and that drives you to do things you normally wouldn’t do -contact him when you said you wouldn’t, put up with behaviour that you would otherwise deem unacceptable. There is no undoing the past, you can only learn from it. As for what he thinks about you – who cares!!!! He wasn’t smart or mature enough to recognize your worth and value in the first place. He is the one behaving badly, he is the one lying and manipulating to get what he wants as cheaply as he can get it. That’s what these guys do – they try to get as much relationship as we will give for the least amount of effort. I suspect you both showed up with open, honest hearts and were trying to give him what you yourself wanted – a loving, respectful relationship. That he was playing his little assclown games shows him for what he is – an assclown. If this was your first AC (and hopefully your last), you should not beat up on yourself for not seeing it sooner. There is no manual, no preparation for dealing with these guys, other than having good self-esteem and self-worth. Work on you, focus on you and you will never fall prey to this nonsense again.
Fearless. do not send that text…listen its bigger than the text. You’re clearly so brave why on earth would you let this take up a minute more of your time. Answer, because of the way he looks at you, because of that day when he said that ‘thing’ to you, because of the cadence of the way he laughs,shared memories,great powerful sex,all of the above and much more. Sit down in a quiet room and remind yourself that he does not regard the relationship as you do.You would in fact be sending that text to someone who does not mind being a stranger to you. Sure he’ll love the text, it will give him a bit of a buzz but then what, another week or two of waiting. You may weep until you rock when it hits you, you may think that your place being human in society has ended but in reality when you are able to clear yourself of him…your life will begin. FOR REAL. I was and indeed still am immensely wary, but wary is good for now. After imposed reflective solitude I am seeking a good guy again and will hopefully be successful. Its so patronising to say it gets better but it does and when it gets better, if its about you being in control and restored in self esteem and confidence, its so, so much better. You are living a half life just now fearless,remember your tag on this site and life your life for full and real. Do not text, everything will start to fall into place if you resist. All best hopes to you. Stay strong.
@Lesley,
Wonderful post. You explained that so well… you said all the things that I have felt and dealt with in the last 6 months so succinctly. Thank you.
Excellent advice.
@Fearless, Don’t send the text. Don’t waste anymore of your precious life on a man that doesn’t care. You are worth so much more than that. Take it from me, I have been there, it will never get “better” because he will always be the same. That is not your fault, he just is the way he is and chances are he will be his whole life.
Take care,
TJ
I like analogies too, and you one about the train is brilliant,c’mon don’t send the text…love to you. Les
Thanks Leslie and Elle. my tag name “Fearless” is aspirational!
Over the years I have known this EUM, I have been able to hold off contact for longer and longer periods of time each time he does his ‘not talking about anything’ routine till I get my fluffy slippers back on…and the reason that I am able to drown my urge to contact him for ever longer periods of time is that I have felt more and more the futility of contacting him.
I have had good awareness for a very long time that in contacting him I am merely delaying the inevitable; I do it for the ‘short-term’ gain, but I know in myself that I am only storing up more pain and trouble to deal with later. It’s a short term fix – not a long term strategy.
I find it helpful to focus on what someone here has said that contact simply equals new pain to deal with. And don’t I know it!!
I recall once after having a ‘falling out’ (on account of me ‘asking an “awkward” question, most likely) we did not contact eachother for weeks. Weak and miserable and missing him terribly, I caved in.
I sent him a text asking if he didn’t miss me at all.
He answered that he was thinking about me that very morning. I asked what it was about me that he was thinking.
He texted back an explicit line of sexual comment about what he was “thinking” of about me that morning (don’t want to be crude here with the details!).
At that I flung my phone acroos the room! I was so upset at his insensitivity… like I wanted to have a “sex text” at that moment in time… and, of course, as usual, instead of alleviating anything, I only had a big dose of brand new pain to deal with.
It is sooo true that these men associate sex with intimacy! He thought I was to be “complimented”!
I had a great deal of difficulty letting go of a previous relationship (EUM) before this one… I know when I am getting close to closing the door on it… and I am close, very close… I recognise that same feeling, that creeping certainty that to mainatin or to seek contact with the person is simply an utter waste of time and will accomplish absolutely nothing.
My last words to my previous EUM on the phone – a long time ago – were “stop phoning me and just fuck off for good”. He did. I never contacted him again, I knew I never would. I knew there was nothing, absolutely nothing to be gained by it. I grieved the relationship for at least a year, but I knew it was done.
So…. I have not texted the EU Man-ager today!!! Hoorah! I am happy to say the notion has passed! I think now, that I really want him to know that this time it is different; that I am not going to do what he expects me to do, and wanting that to be the case motivates me more than any urge to contact him. In some ways, I simply do not want him to “win”… and I can be very stubborn!
Thanks for all the comments here today, they have been immensley helpful to me.
Keep on keepin on!
xx
Too true about the contact = new and more reasons for pain. I have not contacted my ex-AC since the time I declared I did not want any contact between us, in part because I don’t want to be one of those people whose word has no meaning, and in part because, as you say, I will just get burnt by him again. Any time I sought compassion from this person while he was dumping my arse, he just kept dishing out the most insensitive comments about how he couldn’t be with someone just because she was sexually attractive, how he did not like my personality, how my ex-boyfriend (before him) probably found me ‘too much’ too (still reel that he brought my ex into it!), and how I was making things worse for myself by being upset, and that I needed to stop being so closed minded. It just went on and on, and there was actually only one person (that would be me, the dumpee) being humane in the break-up. I certainly wasn’t asking for him to take me back. So, having being emotionally pummelled, I am not going back for another round.
Also, what I have been working out today is that I can forgive this guy and I am starting to feel some sense of peace and even gratitude for the experience. It’s not all there yet, but I can see glimpses of those things, replacing the hurt and suffering. I know I wouldn’t have been able to glimpse these things without 100% NC.
Elle,
your ex-AC sounds like a total trumpet (mine does too…so don’t feel bad!!)
I agree totally about not wanting to be that person whose word means not very much. Three weeks ago I emailed (we don’t do face to face communication about anything “important”) him and said that this was not a real relationship and I didn’t want to be in it anymore. I don’t want to be the person who didn’t mean what I said. Needless to say he had no wish to “discuss” my decision or the bases for it. Mr Nothing To Say.
This is why I hope I can see this through this time – I want him to learn a “new lesson” – one of us, at least, can commit to something! Can say something and actually follow through. I am sick and tired of feeling that I have no power. I want some power back and I know the minute I make contact I have relinquished any power I might have gained.
I know what you mean about seeking compassion and getting none from these people. It’s astonishing just how disconnected they can be from the pain they cause. They appear to feel nothing about it at all.
My EUM though has never said a single ‘mean’ word to me. He can treat me meanly, but he thinks if he doesn’t actually say anything mean then he can’t be a mean or cruel person. But I too have been “emotionally pummeled” by this man.
You are a young, plainly clever and attractive woman, Elle, and now you know how to avoid the users and abusers. You are not worse off for this – it will serve you well – it will pay off for you at some point in the future, it will. I wish I had come to this knowledge/awareness in my thirties….. oh what might have been.
Thanks for your help in my time of need. Fearless, I can be and so can you.
x
Thank you. It was very kind of you to say these things. I am just about getting to backing myself, which was hard to do after being so systematically discounted and even despised by the end.
I hope that the age factor doesn’t come into these things too much, although I know I say that with some naivety. I simply hope we all come through this better off. I don’t know if better off always means what we think it means – and I am beginning to strongly recognise that if we place conditions on what ‘better off’ means, we’re sure to lose that very thing as it’s rooted in the same sort of fearful rubbish that has us hold onto assclowns! I imagine it’s more a better off because we’ve been through a situation that has asked for so much of us. OK, we haven’t been imprisoned unfairly, tortured, or placed in a forced migration situation – things that are truly heinous – but we’ve each been asked to face ourselves through these ‘dragons’, as Rilke says, and called to be brave and beautiful. It’s a big life test, letting go of these people and healing ourselves, and it needs to be recognised as such. OK. Probably enough from me for today…for a while.
Oh there are so many great comments here, thanks. I like the train analogy, and heres the idea I had when reading it. Why on earth are we standing alone, waiting for a train, ie waiting to hop on board someone else’s journey.
I spent 30 years in a relationship with a man. But, two decades into it I realized I was tagging along on my partners life. The analogy I came up with was that I felt like a very well kept and well loved loyal golden retriever. My partner was not an AC, but he was passively aggressive in his control. Thankfully his life choices that I tagged along with were good ones. But still, I felt like he kept me at a heel, always a half step behind him leading the way. With a LOT of effort together at a counselor I could get him to accommodate some of my needs, which were very different from his. But this was the only way I could get anywhere.
After ten years of counseling with him I finally realized that I did not have a partner. Someone to walk to the train station with together, someone who would choose journeys with me. I did not have a partner who wanted to work together.
Somehow I then got involved with a true EUM/ AC. It’s almost like he was an extreme version of my partner, with childish, selfish, irrational mental issues thrown in. It was a version of confusion that I know I will never put myself through again. Sometimes i think I had to experience the complete version of an EUM/ Arseclown to arrive at where I am now. I am completely clear on what i want in a relationship and able to spot BS, time wasters, and incapable men quickly and easily.
We can hope all we want that an EUM, child man, irrational man, or AC will come around to being a mature partner. But that is like praying for a miracle. If you are like me you may suffer serious emotional damage while you wait.
No contact with an EUM/ AC is the way to recovery and by definition it is a journey you have to go on alone. It is hard to believe at first that NC can actually be the beginning of a very satisfying journey, though like life there are ups and downs. Happy Trails to anyone on, or considering the NC train ; – )
Aphrogirl
Good for you! The train in my “story” is a metaphor for the ‘commited bonafide relationship’ rather than the man.
But I do know what you mean. I think many women have found themselves living life vicariously through their man. I think that would have happened to me if I’d married my first boyfriend, who was a nice guy, but I would have not done or achieved a fraction of the things I have done (had to do) on my own if I’d settled down with him.
Yes, the point is that we shouldn’t be waiting for a train:
“Happy Trails to anyone on, or considering the NC train ; – )”
I’m buying my ticket for that train, Aphrogirl!! And I know it’s coming – cos I’m driving the train!! Choo-chooo!!
xx
I’m loving the posts today Elle,Fearless, Aphrogirl, who needs to text a guy with this conversation going on. The point about sex and intimacy that you make fearless is such a crucial one,for me its the stepping stone to moving on.. We all want to be fancied for sure, I just said to a guy(hopefully an emotionally honest one)today that I was ready to move on,that he’s concerned is a credit to him and to my credit, I meant it. The dilemma is,when you want to move on,past pictures from your previous life do lurk for a while…for me it’s when you’re feeling strong attraction as I am beginning to feel again-you remember just for a split second things that were promised,quoted to you before and you hesitate. I’m finding happily that they lurk less and less and that I can concentrate on whats new and happy. Bigger problem is …trying to explain it to new person who may be entering your life. You want to say listen, I fancy the pants off you but this thing happened to me and I need a bit of space to get my head straight. I think even lovely guys hear instead’ I am not over my previous partner and will think about him when we are having sex’….Its being strong enough to ride this out and also a test for the new guy that he lets you. I wanted to say to fearless,watch the sex texts like crazy. I used to get texts from myAC saying’Noone will ever give me a BJ like you did’. I would have preferred’ Noone will ever hold my hand in the klimt museum again’ but at the time I used to think he’s thinking about me…no he wasn’t, he was thinking about my mouth on his wilie…its a different thing!!!!. I haven’t laid eyes on my ex for nearly two years,at the time I thought I had been mummified….now I think I’m lucky and strong and have my life before me. You have to put yourself first and anyone who is worth having will see that and applaud you for it.Never compromise,step by step you find the way back to yourself and the best bit is….you are even better than you were before you met the AC!
Bahaha! I am sorry. I just could not resist commenting on your ‘mummified’ image. That’s hilarious! I too was on my back and eating a mouthful/day for about 5 days, an anxious mess for about 2 weeks, and still a bit too engaged with it all (though getting so much better). Meanwhile, AC was emailing me within 24 hours saying, ‘I feel so much better about my decision [to leave you]. Do you want to Skype soon as friends, just to catch up?’ Such a disjuncture! No concept of the harm he had done.
As for the wariness, I think the wariness is there, as a healthy thing, to allow you to be sensitive to signs and to unroll trust as it is deserved, but I think you have to try – as much as you can – to still be open to this person, and to take their kindness as kindness. I am certainly going to try to avoid even mentioning AC to a partner until well into the relationship because I think it could otherwise set the tone that I am somehow wounded or fragile, or (as you say) not over him. Plus, I think if I am actually needing to talk about it too much, I probably haven’t quite had enough time on my own. But you, LB, sound like there’s something quite lovely developing…and if you take it slowly emotionally and work on getting to know each other and sussing out values rather than sharing pity stories (I say this, because a guy I went on a date with lately had heard I had been dumped and wanted to exchange stories – not a good scene) or engaging in too much talk about the future, it should be fine (no guarantee that compatible, but more fine than the confusion of a man who lacks integrity). I say this, though, when I haven’t really myself gotten back on the horse, so to speak. Still too tired…
“I thought I had been mummified” is hilarious; I laughed out loud. And Lesley, no-one does need to text the EMU with this conversation going on!! Great… it works for me! Though I do feel like I have hogged the blog today..sorry folks… I will go into silent mode soon!
Leslie, yes it still depresses me that when I am thinking of the ‘special moments’m those that felt specially intimate to me, he seems to be thinking of his hard-on! And yet I know my EUM is not stupid – quite the reverse – he is intellectually gifted; yet emotionally impoverished, so it would seem. I don’t think he is an Assclown – he doesn’t fit many of the criterion for this (though maybe I should look again!). I honestly think he is just not firing on all cylinders – there’s something missing. I think he is most certainly the classic commitment phobe – he wants in but he wants out. One foot in/one foot out. He is intimate but is withdrawn. Tender but hostile. Romantic but distant. Giving but cold. One big contradiction. Ambivalence on legs. It’s like doing the hokey-cokey till you die.
They say also that these folk are accpeting but critical. Yet my EUM never criticises me. He points things out when I have problems at work or don’t get the job after an interview, but he is always constructive and actually bery helpful and supportive in things that don’t include “the situation”! I am supposing though, that I never hear his criticisms – he must do these ‘in his head’ becasue I am certain he is a commitment phobe. No question.
Here’s a strange thing that came to me the other day. He once showed me a photo album – various photos of him and friends/family taken when he was much younger – there was a phot of a young girl – 18/19yrs or so – he told me she had committed suicide. I asked him if they were going out together and he just said, ‘on and off’. I askeed if he knew why she had killed herself and he just said she had some ‘problems, that she was diabetic’. That was the sum total of the conversation and we moved on to something else.
But having become newly enlightened about this strange EUM syndrome, it has been on my mind more and more. I now wonder if the poor girl was being ’emotionally pummelled’ by his on-off, in-out, now you see me now you don’t nonsense that she was just tipped over the edge… it’s morbid, I know, but I can’t help but wonder.
I’ll be full throttle at work all week, so you can all get a rest from my ramblings!
xx
I just found this site and it has saved my life. The wise words and support of the women here is amazing. Thank you, Natalie, for giving us a voice, giving us reasons to hope. I consider myself an educated, intelligent woman but I had never met one of these guys before. We work together and suddenly, there he was, coming on strong. He literally showed up at my house one day,acting like a boyfriend. I was cautious at first but he was so sincere, I started to let down my guard. I knew a bit of his history and he had walked in the door saying he was a commitment phobe, so I thought I would be clever. I got all the books by Sokol and Carter about commitment phobia, read everything I could find on line and thought I could “outsmart” his disorder. What a fool I was. All I did, in the end, was destroy myself. He didn’t want to be fixed or cured and in the end, he just wanted out. Unfortunately, I kept believing that if he didn’t actually say it, it wasn’t quite over yet. When he finally dumped me (the humiliation!), I still didn’t want to believe it and I ended up throwing out the “lets be friends” line, just to keep the hope alive. I ended contact 2 months ago and have finally regained my sanity (thanks to this site). I lost myself completely. I wanted the relationship so badly, I put up with ridiculous behaviour. I chalked up all kinds of crap to his “commitment phobia” and thought if I just put no pressure on him, he would fall in love and “reward” me with the relationship I wanted (or thought I did). I has taken me 7 of the 8 weeks of no contact to realize he is not a good guy, I am not missing anything and that this really was about me not loving myself. REading all the comments and stories, I find some of the details change but that is the common thread – we don’t love and respect ourselves enough to walk away from men who don’t love and respect us. Whether its commitment phobia, assclownery, emotional unavailabiity, being a man-child or whatever label we want to put on them, the end result is the same.
I struggled for the past week to decide whether he really was a good guy, because he had eventually ended it with me. In the end, I realized he didn’t love or respect me enough to have the honest conversation until it was way too late. First, he tried getting me to dump him by behaving badly. Then he tried the slow retreat. It finally hit a point (when he picked me up from the airport to start our summer vacation) when he finally had to say that he had actually ended it a month before – I just hadn’t picked up on the clues. I accept responsibility for what I did – I hurt me and I gave him the power to hurt me. But I was the only one I hurt. What helped me break free was realizing that he only hurt someone else – he never cared enough or risked enough to get hurt himself and he admitted on the way out he knew he was going to do it – it had been his pattern his entire life. However much we may beat up on ourselves or blame ourselves, I think we all tried to be honest and open and would have apologized or held ourselves accountable for our actions. They don’t.
Thank you for this site. You will never know how much it helped me and countless others. This has been one of the most painful but important journeys of my life and I couldn’t have survived it without your help.
@tina – just got out of my first AC situation too. What a painful thing that was, and I had the same sorts of horrible realizations that I had missed or chosen to miss his attempts at orchestrating a bust-up and I am still not entirely sure he wasn’t already seeing someone else by the end – he just seemed way too hostile for someone with a clean conscience.
But, I have to say, something at the 2 month NC mark kicks in, and then the days after that count for two days pre-2 months in terms of healing and moving on. It’s an awful experience, and one that is seriously under-reported! It should be routine knowledge for people. Hopefully, this will be our only dose of it and the lessons have been learned.
Anyway, I have been rambling way too much today. But, as a final thing, my a psychologist once told me (in relation to a friend with a serious mental health problem) that you could lose yourself trying to work out the reasons behind their behaviour. I think this is true (and I don’t say this to belittle my friend) of this sort of thing. It could send you crazy trying to make sense of what is actually, for the most part, nonsensical and uncontrollable.
Thanks to Natalie! For sure! Has made all the difference for me, to have the language and support to get through it…because it is just not like a normal relationship or break-up.
Good luck!
not that there’s any shame in it – but definitely ‘a ‘psychologist, not ‘my’ psychologist talking to me about working out mental healthy problems! That would be too many layers of confusion if this were all me. I was caught up with a v close friend whose suffering I tried to help, but couldn’t. It was a thankless and v painful task, and affected my own mental health…and in the end, I was actually far more useful as a friend on the sidelines. More to the point, I think that’s why these men, as well, should be left rather than helped. Or if they are to be helped by us, only when we are genuinely not attached to the outcome, to them getting better and wanting to be with us or telling us we were right and worthy all along, or whatever else we fantasize about…
Elle,
yes, I agree. I think all of the you’ll be ‘better off’ is banded about like it should be something tangible; we feel the pressure to feel ‘better off’, swapping one self defeating situation for another…
‘better off’ in the context of the EUM/AC I take to mean, life will be easier for you if you get this monkey off your back!
xx
Tina – My story exactly! I am so glad you found this site. It saved my life too. I, too, spent weeks trying to figure out the right “label” for my ex, so that I could understand what happened and find closure. It didn’t really matter why he did what he did, what mattered is why I did what I did. Whether he is decent or not is irrelevant. You need to keep working on you. You can’t fix or change him but you can fix you, and in doing so you will never want another guy like him again. The second I began to rebuild my self-respect and self-confidence, I stopped caring what he did or thought or wanted. He isn’t worth your time but you are. I know the insanity you felt and am thrilled you are making progress – please stick with it. We deserve better and when we learn to love ourselves we will get it.
Oh I know Elle,and you get so angry with yourself for being up for the mummification process in the first place…ha ha! The skype thing is hilarous…you start to wonder about parallel universes whe you hear that sort of thing…were you actually on the same planet at the same time, never mind the same relationship. Its the essence of that tho’ on a serious note that causes the grief and mummification. The investment you made and the memories distilled into’contacts on skype’. Cut cleanly is the definite rule but not so easy at the time.
Re fragility, my view is slightly off kilter and I wonder if anyone will agree on the site… NML are you out there? I’m feel so strong just now that the fact that I ‘ve been fragile is just part of that… I agree that there is no more boring conversation than your exes on the first date but it’s part of who you are and possibly should be mentioned in passing and understood. I don’t want to talk about my ex partner anymore but he has a slight residual effect on my trust still. Hopefully thats ending. Re anyone new, don’t know…. I too was very tired… there was no horses, back in saddle for me for a long time.Its healing to feel that way I think. Re man I’m thinking of,exceptionally early days, I like him but will never do hot/cold again. Time will tell. Hope is the best emotion in the world tho’ that myth about Pandora’s box got it right,its just that you have to wait for all the other stuff to go away. Take care Elle x
Yeah, it’s impossible not be a bit fragile, even numb. I think that time and some mental exercises (like reminding yourself of all your other positive relationships and encounters with people, like reminding yourself that you will know how to get out this time, like watching your self-dialogue) help, as does exercise and meditation.
But maybe Natalie will have some more solid views on how to manage the transition, where you want to share and be honest with this person, but you don’t want the horrors of an AC/EUM to be a defining part of you, or something that sets the tone of things in those early, intense stages.
I know that men are even more sensitive to signs that we are still attached to other men. On the other hand, there is a part of me that thinks that a decent, healthy man will see this as one part of your history, just as you would have a healthy perspective of a man telling you his father had died when he was young. We want it to be a part of us that we can share if we want to, but not something that soaks the emotional scene.
But you can only keep going with a hopeful and joyful spirit, as much as you can, and be gentle with yourself too. I can’t see there’s any other way forward…
Anyway, goodnight ladies. Have a lot on this week too, so going to be silent observer of site this week! All the best
(oh, and LB, I have been a sarcastic little comedian/SOB on all my dates so far, and have not, in any way, let these guys engage in flattery or future talk with me…so I am definitely out of whack. Hoping it will ease, as it’s completely counter-productive in the long-term! And I miss something about the relaxed innocence I had before. But I do recognise that, right now, it’s serving a very important function for me – a clear sign that I have not healed even nearly enough to be intimate with someone).
I totally agree with Lesley about Elle’s experience of ‘let’s be friends on skype’ when Elle is going through emotional wipe-out because of this ‘let’s be friend’. It’s a joke isn’t? It’s so insulting, it’s an insensitivity that goes beyond words or expression. You’d get more from your pet dog – even a well-loved dog can sense distress in its owner and offer some empathetic paw and maybe a little whine in sympathy and a cuddle-in. These men really are vaccuous.
Lesley’s comment that you have to wonder at these moments if you’re even on the same planet, never mind in the same relationship speaks volumes to me! (that’s exactly how I felt in moments like the ‘sex-text’ when I was miserable being apart from my “mate” and pining for some emotional support, compassion and a cuddle-in! I “knew” at that point that this guy was existing in some universe faaar faaar away! and I was pouring all my emotions into a black hole and living out relationship groundhog day!)
xx
Fearless and LB, OK. So I should be off the internet, but I may as well have a complete Baggage Reclaim fest:
YES! The email about how relieved he felt and the Skype chat proposal hurt so much (and mostly because of the realization of that massive disjuncture that LB identified) that I almost could not breathe when I read it. I felt like he had blown scorching wind into my chest. It was godawful, and he should have known it would be especially difficult as I don’t live in my native country (and, not sure if you remember, but this guy dumped me via email a week before he was due to move out with me to a place). But these are the sensations and images I have to let go of so that I can move on. I need some peace and I could be a very resentful and hurt human forever if I waited for him to give me that peace.
Elle,
He’s a cad and a bounder. No-one should ever wait for anything from him.
You are a strong, a wonderful and inspiring human being. Believe.
x
Hey fearless, yeah I thought the mummification bit was inspired but am exceedingly diverted by your hokey cokey analogy,brilliant!!! i Guess that its when they shake it all about that the problems come.
The album situation, on a serious note would concern me…why show you this if he didn’t want to give explanation. That wouldn’t intrigue me,it would scare me. You know, I have to say it but you know what I ‘m going to say anyway,he sounds like he’s feeding off your reactions…that can be a bad thing. A guy like that will start to control you by his reactions to your own natural behaviour. Remind yourself that your reaction to the suicide girl was a perfectly normal one. What was he aiming for,to confide in you…alarm you…intrigue you. I think not. He was looking to create any reaction in you-to get attention. You should have said’Poor GIrl’and controlled your emotion. Its up to him to explain these kind of situations to you…..Listen two or three years ago I would have been asking my ex partner all sorts of questions about this kind of thing…now I would nod and get on with what I ‘m doing.Fearless I do not fear or you, you will come through. Its the best call on this site not to waste time over analysing the AC’S,instead spend time analysing the great guys and yourself,trying to get it right. I ‘m signing off now, hope to speak to you again soon, love to you x
Lesley
That’s interesting. I know you are signing off, So am I shortly; heading for bed, but when you are next on, could you say a little more about what you mean, I know it doesn’t matter – and what matters is not dissecting him and his rubbish; I’m not putting a lot of store on his problems and am trying to tocus on what is good for me – but what you said has confused me a little, as I’m puzzled about the ‘feeding off my reaction’ bit. I didn’t have much reaction – don’t much to anything he says!
Also, to clarify: there were lots of photos in the album; the girl was one among many photos. Also he had mentioned before I ever saw the photo that a ‘friend’ of his had killed herself when she was very young and I never asked much about it at all, figuring these things happen for a multitude of reasons and also that people, such as him, wouldn’t necessarily know the reasons. Anyway, I don;t wish to digress from the thread too much, so will bugger off now.
I will be fine. I always am!! I have an inner strength and I pull on it when I know I really need to! I have loved and lost, and lost and loved; I know how miserable break-ups can be – I have had worse, much worse than the place I am in just now and I survived so I know I can and I will. I am quite self sufficient. I may want him but I don’t need him. I never have. I suspect actually he needs me much more than I need him; and I suspect he knows that it true, somewhere in the deep recesses of his emotionless pit, he knows.
xx to all.
Oh Elle, I recognise the SOB/little comedian bit so well, just had to get back to you on that one…it was me, I do that so well…it’s a fallback position isn’t it and they like it at first. I’m finding tho’ that that stage is going…which is great, I too miss the innocence of before but I think when trust comes then I can be playful again. I hope so anyway.
I’m signing off now, hope to catch up with you soon x
In Natalie’s Guidelines she states: “The comments should be about the subject matter of the post.”
I swear, this frustrated me before the forums, and now it seems to be happening again. I just read through 67 comments and most of them were about folks asking, sometimes indirectly, for help about their personal situations – and others sharing advice/response to aforementioned personal situation – instead of sharing about the subject at hand, the post Natalie worked at writing for us. Then it ends up with a few chatting with each other, as if this is a personal messageboard or forum. It is like this:
Natalie stands before us and gives us a well-thought out speech. She presumably worked hard on this helpful and educational speech. We listen, then groups of us turn our back on her and start talking about whether we should text, or our own shame in healing, or our won personal story about our EUM and always, always it comes back to talking about HIM, instead of what Natalie just shared.
Not the subject of the post, not to Natalie, not to each other about, in this case, being afraid and holding oneself back – the subject of this post, but about ourselves and our pain.
I have noticed something interesting. Our EUMs tend to be called selfish, only think obsessively about themselves, only out for what they want…
…I think we women who try to love them are NO different. We only think about our pain about HIM, can’t stop from obsessing about HIM, we are only out for what we want – HIM/”closure” (still needs to come from HIM)…
Anyway, I would love to come here and read 67 comments about the actual post – that involve Natalie (even in just asking her questions and clarification), and our thoughts about what the subject matter at hand brings up for us.
One last thought. A common symptom of being with, or healing from a EUM is a feeling of loneliness and disconnect because many of us do not want to share with our friends our pain – or they are sick of hearing it, or we have isolated ourselves and do not feel we have any friends/support to talk with. So it is natural to want to connect with others in the same situation. But I do not feel the comments of this blog is the place to do that.
Blaise, thank you. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for articulating what has become a repeatedly tricky ground for me. I don’t want to get to a level of turning off comments but I have been tempted. But I think it is unfair to penalise everyone, but I am going to do what I should have done which is go back to moderation. Hugs and thank you x
Let me add for clarification – the articulating I refer to is of the guidelines – commenting about the post in question and staying on topic and not using posts as a forum. It is a tricky ground because I don’t want to feel that I have to delete heartfelt comments even though they are off topic hence why I end up leaving them especially as they’ve often been replied to.
Natalie, with respect, you could/should then delete asap the posts here that you feel are irrelevant to the topic. That would save Blaise from having to read 67 ‘selfish tirades’ and having to ‘tell us all off’ for them.
The posts you make on this site – including this one – give us food for thought, and those thoughts are necessarily about our own personal experiences in relation to the topic you have written about.
Yes people digress, of course they will; it’s human nature; but the thread of the discussion is largely about what it is intended to be about; or at least I thought so. Plainly I am wrong.
People come on here to look for support and advice on the topics they feel are most pertinent to their current situation – in this case, their fears and worries and what holds them back.
They read your posts, Natalie, and are glad of them, but as Blaise points out your helpful posts are ‘educational speeches’. They are didactic – not really open to “discussion” as in no-one is going to debate with you – we all agree that you are right! What’s to discuss, then, one might ask? Other than the relevance of the ‘speech’ to our own lives and experiences, what our fears are and how we are coping with them… yes people end up having a ‘chat’… no, it’s not a message board…yes, we should refer back more to the post… but perhaps a little more timely ‘interference’ then from you, Natalie, to keep us all ‘on topic’ when we stray may alleviate the very obvious frustration you feel when you are reading the comments, and, of course, the frustration, nae, disgust more like, of Blaise, who also is free to ‘butt in’ before she finds herslef wading her way through 67 lengthy comments from a bunch of navel-gazing, selfish women prattling and whining on about their own pathetic needs and the dreaded HIM! (that’s clearly her message to the those who have “mistakenly” thought they were benefitting from the posts made here, and you, Natalie, have more than endorsed that view, or more precisely, as I have no issue with anyone having a view, the clear insults directed at the rest of us via the manner in which it is expressed.
Your post here (and others) is very insightful and helpful to me. That is why I am on here! That is why we all are. Blaise, you should feel free to contribute some relevant comments. I am sure we would all be interested in your view of Natalie’s excellent speech. I haven’t seen anything here from you? Perhaps you could be helpful and ‘open the relevant debate’?
It has to be said too that I am sure, whatever I have done wrong in my comments here, many of the women commenting here are going through very difficult times, some are emotionally shredded. I don’t think it is helpful to refer to them/me as ‘selfish, self obsessed and only out for what they want…’… and the rest..
People here, I can plainly see, are looking for support and advice and a friendly ear and a touch of humour in a time of need, perhaps a time of utter desolation – they are doing that on the topics they feel ‘speak’ to them. If that makes us selfish, irrelevant and self absorbed, then I guess some of us are – including me. So I’ll go away now and let you, Blaise, and other frustrates get back on topic.
Good luck to all
xx
If
You know Fearless, I understand where you are coming from and I think I would understand it more if I didn’t put guidelines above the comments. I had the comments on moderation and funny enough the same ‘didactic’ posts had people commenting about the posts. I went away on a little vacation and didn’t want to be approving comments while away nor dealing with a pile of emails saying ‘why isn’t my comment approved’ so I turned it back on. For a while it was fine but much like the forum it degenerated. I understand the need to discuss to a point and I am totally fine with that, but when it slips into a personal discussion, and I’m not necessarily referring to this thread, some make uncomfortable reading for others who are not part of the discussion. But that’s by the by because I state my boundaries in the comment guidelines above the box. What is interesting is that when I or anyone else states those very boundaries, I get the whole I should delete the comments and general getting arsey – I think sometimes I am too respectful of people’s contributions. I get that you’re all struggling and feel averse to deleting your efforts. But comments are moderated now anyway and the reason why they haven’t been deleted btw, is because I don’t generally read comments immediately, as I’m off rearing two very young children. I’m not a babysitter!
I should add, I at no point stated that you were selfish and I don’t need you mouthing off at me. What I was actually referring to for complete clarification is that there are a lot of off topic comments.
I’m a lurker and understood what you meant by the reply as I was also one of the people that emailed you when people did the same thing on the forum. Blaise has intentions in the right place and actually she’s saying about the off commenting what others are thinking. I respect you don’t want to come along and delete comments people have put effort into even though they are off topic but I think you are too kind to us. You have every right to say you are uncomfortable with people stepping over your boundaries – you teach people this all the time. Do NOT feel bad about it. For f’s sake – I can see the rules sitting above this box! Ladies – let’s not do what we don’t like being done to us by others to Natalie. Be respectful! She didn’t even delete these comments so ragging on her is rude! Peace and thank you!
If I may make final post here:
Whatever is the case, Blaise openly insulted contributors on this forum/blog/post with:
“selfish, only think obsessively about themselves, only out for what they want…”
I am sure such comments are wholly unhelpful and demoralising to any person who is likely to be feeling the need to use – not lurk on – this site. Off or on “topic” the comments that were being made here were quite plainly helpful to those who were contributing. “Lurkers” by definition make no contribution; it seems to me if your part is merely to eavesdrop on the discussion you are not in a good position to complain about the quality of it or of its benefit to you (though that may be beside the point when it comes to the rules laid down by NML).
I do appreiate fully some of the points made by NML, which i would now be more sensitive about if I were to post again, most particularly that some comments could put some would-be-contributors off from making comment for fear of feeling like they were “interrupting” a private conversation or that some comments can become too autobiographical. So, I accept much that has been said by NML. And no, of course you should not need to be a baby-sitter, or watch the site like a hawk. I intended to suggest no such thing. I know how demanding motherhood and work can be (I did both at the same time – by myself) and I was not being arsey disrespectful of your time and commitments beyond this site.
I don’t think anyone is deliberately and wilfully mis-behaving; I think people are confused as to the nature of the ‘blogs’ – if that is what I can call them. I know I am confused… maybe I am unsure of the difference between forums and blogs and posts and discussion boards… are they all different things for different purposes??
I only found this site about a week or so ago; I am still getting used to the format and the purpose. I can see I have been, am still being (!) a pain in the neck for NML, and I am not happy to be; but it is not intentional. I simply think Blaise was patronising and insulting to what are at the very least are genuine people who have not intended to offend anyone, and I found her comments very harsh and uncalled for in a context where, by its very nature, the inhabitants are largely already feeling “less than human”.
I read the guidelines before I commented. I didn’t realise I was upsetting people by my comments and I will think about that, but having unwittingly provided poor value for the money for the ‘lurkers’ or would be conversationalists, does not make my comments on the situation invalid – or “arsey”. The first person (lurker?) to be “arsey” in my view was Blaise – and she was thanked for it.
Those guidelines, if we read them as articulated by Blaise seem to me to need clarifying, and if the “off topic” boundary-bashing of the guidelines is such a recurring problem for NML, for the lurkers and the would-be contributors, they obviously need clarifying for quite a number of other commentators on here as well.
If we look at Blaise’s articulation of the boundaries, this is what we find (below), so, am I and others to assume these are the boundaries for discussion?
No-one should ask directly or indirectly for help from other contributors about their own personal situation.
No-one should proffer help or advice to anyone else for any ‘aforementioned’ personal situation.
People should share only about the subject at hand – NML’s post
No-one should talk about ‘HIM’ – their EUM or AC.
No-one should talk about their own personal situation
No-one should talk about themselves or their pain but stick to the subject of NML’s post
Although it is ‘natural to want to connect with others in the same situation this blog is not the place to do that and we should refrain from that temptation
We should ask NML questions and clarification re her post and offer our thoughts about what the subject matter at hand brings up for us.
I came on here for help/advice/to connect with others in the same situation/to talk about my pain, my personal situation and experience and to try to support others in theirs. Plainly I need to go elsewhere for that, and I am thinking, most likely, so do a number of others who apparently continue to break the rules of engagement. So be it. I have no quibble with that. Sorry, I plainly found myself in the wrong room.
xx
I’m not going to drag this whole discussion out, not least because it is off topic. Each of you has valid points and actually, I think it’s all to do with tone and people interpret tone differently and it took me a while before I actually decided to publish this comment. Maybe I’m making an assumption, but I didn’t actually see Blaise as being rude but someone who has commented on the site for a few years, has seen this issue crop up periodically, and was being matter of fact. This is no reflection on anyone, but there are a long list of people including the likes of Blaise, Astelle, Aurora, Brad K, Carm, and many more who have over the years put their neck out because they care. That doesn’t mean that you don’t Fearless but I do know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Blaise had nothing but good intentions to the site overall. That doesn’t invalidate your interpretation of it no more than it doesn’t invalidate mine.
I think I have been more than fair to readers in nearly five years of writing this blog but it is my blog, I am entitled to say if I feel uncomfortable and you are entitled, if you don’t like my discomfort or how I run things, to choose not to comment. Any guidelines that exist are not to give me an ego stroke and make people’s lives difficult – it is for the greater good of the site and the readers. If I did what served only a few people, I’d alienate many more.
The problem of people going off topic is a repeated issue with new people who don’t read the guidelines or follow the flow – as is the case 99% of the time, people adjust to the flow of things and respect the rules. Some people have their own idea of what they think that they can say and do in blog comments because they are used to using forums and treat it the same but this is not a forum.
While I do appreciate aspects of your comment and that you want to be able to speak freely, what I don’t appreciate is you being so incredibly disrespectful to list a number of things that you claim I am not allowing people to do, even though there is evidence to the contrary, and really if you have so little respect for what I say or do, or the fact that I do have boundaries, then yes, you are in the wrong room. And I never understand why you and others feel the need to be hostile and then put kisses after it – it doesn’t change what you said!
You know, Natalie, I feel Fearless’ response, coupled with MissIA’s wise comment really makes it all clear:
You wisely advise us to set boundaries, to love ourselves with our boundaries. You are very right. Now, I recommend you also do so with your own blog. NO ONE has a right to tell you off for your boundaries.
It states right here in the guidlines what you want. That should be respected. After all, the best way to show us is through your actions as well as your words!
Moderate, girlfriend, and be proud. Do not put up with angry, rude comments. It’s your blog! We are all just visiting!
P.S.: Your target audience, all of us, tend to get into the dodgy relationship situations you are helping us heal from because – folks are going to hate this, I did when I realized it – we are IMMATURE. Emotionally, mentally, or some combination thereof. So with an audience like that, you need to have ***extra firm*** boundaries. MANY of us are growing and maturing – but especially at first when we come here, we need to grow up – respecting boundaries (honoring comment guidelines and finding appropriate places to share our stories/pain, such as therapy or a support group – not a blog comment section) is a first step.
P.P.S: Ooo, good! My comment is awaiting moderation! Yeah! Good for you!
Maybe I have a different sensibility but I did not read much of anything rude in the above. Straying as above above may be par for the course as self absorption is part of the process of recovery; I think many of us regress to an abandoned child state with the EUM’s.
While Natalie’s excellent posts are the force behind this site, I actually find others insightful comments to be a real draw. I have found this type of shared dialogue to much more helpful than other typical avenues of self help, because it does take some serious introspection and effort to put thoughts into meaningful words that you hope others will understand. It also takes effort to read others thoughts and understand their point of view.
That being said.. moderation is great when things stray, as they will. On a list I belong to when someone strays they always humorously end their post with ” Obligatory ( name of list ) comment….” It does remind us that we are asking others to indulge whatever off- topic-ness we feel compelled to bring up.
It’s a new frontier here, but if the intention is helping others I think overall this site works very well… with a higher than average number of articulate participants. I am as grateful to the people who take time to add insightful comments about their experiences with difficult men.
Ok, so I strayed. Obligatory on topic BR comment. I say, don’t ever hold back from what you feel is love, just don’t. But if it is not reciprocated in kind, and deep down, you will know if it is, just move on right quick and don’t look back.
As a strayer, I agree. Moderation is certainly necessary, and probably a reminder every now and then that we need to try to stay on point is more than worthwhile (or maybe the rule needs to be put in bold!). It’s Natalie’s (your) site, after all, and I can see how conversations may seem exclusive to others, and possibly even irritating to certain visitors.
But I do think it’s a kind of co-constructed site too, where we’re all making it what it is. Some of the content of the posts (and quotes) themselves spring from the stray musings found in the comments, the moments where things take a surprising turn. Actually, in this thread, I think fear and the future remained a theme throughout, and it’s obvious that we are all practising the language of BR.
In any case, new visitors regularly express gratitude both for Natalie’s insights – god sends! – and ALSO for the opportunity to read about the experiences of other women, to not feel so alone, and, even, be directly advised by them. They are the two (unequal, but both very worthy) parts of this site, both add value.
Finally, I suspect I find the non-directly-relevant (‘please help me/ what did this behaviour mean?’) commentary only a little frustrating when I am feeling strong and wanting to get on with things. But then, in moments of vulnerability or confusion, connecting with people in the same situation is such a massive gift, and I don’t think that equates to assclownery or EUM behaviour (which is what, I believe, Fearless found affronting about the complaint). They may well be related, but they’re not equivalent.
Anyway! I will now be super mindful to stay on topic. I haven’t been the strictest with that of late, and it is there, written in the rules.
Thanks Elle! I think your comment is not only on point but I also appreciate the fact that you do understand exactly what is meant! The comments do make a difference but very off topic comments really only make a difference to the private discussion and they do exclude. The moderation is there for exactly what you said and in the overwhelming amount of cases, comments will be published. I had to stop the forum last month as it totally got out of hand and I couldn’t actually manage the deluge of complaints and fighting and it wasn’t constructive. I do try to be very trusting with readers but I have learned, particularly over the past few months, that in some instances I am being too trusting because not everyone respects my boundaries. By and large, comments on the site are very constructive but I do have to have some limits! I do blog posts on Facebook each day and exactly what you said is true – what is contributed from both sides is valuable, especially when it is on point! I’m not going to get all Seth Godin and turn off comments though so fear not!
Re the assclown thing – I didn’t read it that way but I can see that side to it. How I did interpret it is that we have to live by the values that we expect others to uphold. I felt Blaise was essentially saying that the same level of respect we demand from assclowns and Mr Unavailables is what we must live by ourselves hence we must respect the boundaries that are stated on the site. I found this to be particularly true actually on the forum where people complained about their boundaries being crossed and disrespected, and then crossed boundaries and disrespected themselves.
Anyway, thank you for your continued contributions Elle – you often have very wise words and when there was another recent issue you also respected me also and I appreciate that!
No probs! ; ) It’s a tricky thing because we are all a bit emotionally hungry when we come to your site, which means, like any professional (and you are, in a sense, being put in the trusted role of a professional), you need to protect yourself and protect the quality of your service…(I was a bit late on the BR scene and hadn’t realised that a forum had existed and become unmanageable).
Yes, I want to leave a comment but as I’m writing this wonder how it might be taken,construed,evaluated…moderated…do I want to thank Blaise for that, not sure? But…. I DO need moderation particularly when commenting on a new site,one that seems particularly insightful, like this one but didn’t know about a forum?. I hear and agree with NML’s comments and will make the distinction.Thought Blaise’s post was the wrong call. Wrong attitude, given the context. The value of the posts was clear for anyone with an ounce of compassion to see, they did stray,as humans do? but to my mind, reading over my posts they did also refer continuously to the spark of the debate,NML’s initial ‘SPOT ON ‘ piece. Here’s what I think, I would have posted the same again, in the moment, and as a result of the interest and support I felt for Elle, Fearless etc. It was funny and important and enhanced the main article. It wasn’t forum. I may be wrong, tell me if I am,but Blaise, don’t count posts, I count on different things and expect different things from this site…not posts that don’t fit a criteria. Also having found such a prize,such insight…hell do I have to watch my words,please tell me not, NML??
No you don’t have to watch your words.The comments are back to moderated, the great majority will be approved but it will stem the off topic flow. There are some posts with 200-900 comments – from a server perspective, getting way off base causes technical issues also.
Like I said, I understand each person’s points, and I think that I’ve used the benefit of prior history of comments to judge Blaises comment and based my interpretation of tone on that but I also easily see why you or others would be taken aback which was why I clarified my response to remove ambiguity. I value the interaction that my blog has both here, on Twitter, Facebook etc but I equally value the people that read and don’t comment often or at all, as they still also go to efforts with my blogs, sharing articles, buying ebooks, recommending the site, voting on stuff and so forth – some people have been reading for years. Any guidelines that are in place are to protect the overall tone of the site and the experience for the majority of readers. It has been trial and error in the 5 years but having some guidelines is necessary.
Thanks Lesley and take care!
I’d like to add this posting for the record in the discussion. I will temper my comments as much as I feel able to so that they both reflect my (more calmed down) thoughts on the matter and so that they do not add further offense to NML (and in the hope that this time my post might see the light of day)
NML posted this to me:
“what I don’t appreciate is you being so incredibly disrespectful to list a number of things that you claim I am not allowing people to do, even though there is evidence to the contrary, and really if you have so little respect for what I say or do, or the fact that I do have boundaries, then yes, you are in the wrong room”
I was not claiming anything about anyone’s rules. I was rhyming off the list of things that Blaise Parker – not NML or anyone else – was telling the rest of us that we should not be doing on this blog. That list was lifted from Blaise’s comments – I was asking for clarification about Blaise’s list of do’s and don’ts; not my list. I didn’t have a list. I feel NML has clarified her guidelines for me well enough and they are fair enough.
I also think “disrespectful” is when someone who doesn’t know me, or anyone else, from Adam has the nerve to think its okay to tell me, a propos of nothing, what and who she thinks I am (i.e. selfish, self-absorbed, out only for what I want and mentally and emotionally immature).
As Leslie says, and I agree, Blaise made the wrong call in the wrong context. She could try to appreciate that others here are new to the site, perhaps just coming to fully and painfully understand the miserable reality of their relationships with the man they love and are/were perhaps (like myself) unaware of previous issues with off topic comments and have never seen or used the forum.
It made me angry and upset that someone should feel free to be so disparaging to others, which I fully admit made me inclined to respond with all barrels, I was not a little disappointed that her ‘wrong call’ was endorsed by the moderator. I do appreciate that NML did not interperet Blaise’s comments in the same light; I wonder though if she would have done had she been one of the individuals Blaise was referring to (but let’s not go there – I do get where NML is coming from)
As I said, I appreciate what NML is saying about controlling the content of the site for the benefit of the majority. I apologise for any offense I have caused, I have been feeling a little ‘raw’ recently and I reacted badly to what I found deeply insulting,, most particularly being lumped in with Blaise’s notion – and I assume she includes herself in the mix – that if you are reading or posting on this site you must necessarily be a carrier of the EUM ‘disease’ and necessarily be emotionally or mentally immature and needing to ‘grow-up’ (I am far from perfect and have been gifted with a number of epithets, but immature – in any capacity – has never been one of them).
This site is new to me, and a prize. On reflection, I can see the foundations and layer upon layer of graft and talent which makes it what it is today, NML. I did not know that it had been 5 years in the making. I will continue on the site with pleasure and sometimes a bit of awe. I remain concerned about Fearless, not in an awful patronising, well meaning way, Fearless knows this, I ‘m sure… but because the site needs her as much as she needs the site.
Hey Fearless, Blaise whoever, me lets not get into Mexican standoffs about our principles. Lets talk and listen. Don’t let’s lose focus. I strayed, I admit it. I love the site, I got carried away. What I really would love is to hear your feedback on further articles….I’m off to vote.
Leslie,
I too am new to and enjoying the site; it’s good to keep me grounded and clears the fog!
NML’s blogs gives very sensible advice. I’m still reading and I will be posting again – on topic! I am prone to blab on, so if I stray too far from the point a gentle nudge from someone, and I’ll take the hint.
Thanks
I am on Day 4 of no contact….I reached the end with my EUM a$$clown when he played one game too many. I have wanted to leave for so long but was afraid–afraid of his reaction, afraid of being alone, afraid of being “mean” (Natalie’s comment about being the type that would want to be given another chance fits me to a tee) afraid …well of so much, but in one fell swoop I did it–cut ties, blocked the phone, blocked the email, and boxed up everything. I am relieved but to be honest feel like crap–I am mourning the man from the beginning of the relationship (the one I thought really existed but didnt)…and I am now riding a roller coaster of emotion–fear, depression (havent eaten much), loss of focus, joy at doing it. Im scared he will try to contact my friends and embarass me (he knows how to do it) but I am determined to be strong! I want my life back, I want to work on me issues including my self-confidence…I want all the good things that I was missing.
I will be reading this every day and drawing on your strength!!
Dear CTKitty
I think it’s fear that drives these relationships (on both his and her part). The EUM is fearful of commiting to anything. He won’t commit to the relationship and he won’t commit to ending it.
When I realised this, in such simple terms, it helped me a great deal to move the focus of my worries and fear about it all off of him and on to me.
I also realised that his fear of committing – to ANYTHING – meant I finally understood with complete clarity that the very thing I blamed him for was exactly what I was doing myself. I put all the onus on him: he should commit to me or commit to ending it. This really wasn’t fair because I had choices too, and I was responsible for my own choices, i.e. it finally dawned on me that it wasn’t up to him to end it, it was up to me to end it.
I know exactly how you feel right now. You are fearful of not hearing from him – yet fearful of hearing from him; you are fearful of the future – yet fearful of staying with the status quo; you are afraid of being alone – yet afraid of what will happen if you stick it out with him – it’s a nightmare!
It helped me to realise that I had to stop looking to him to do something about the “situation”. I had to look to myself.
One of you has to actually commit to something – or the turmoil just goes on and on – for years and years (and the turmoil is all yours – not his! He’s just fine!)
And you know what? So will you be fine. Nothing bad will happen. You have the power here. Take it.
There is nothing to fear but fear itself.
Taking control by taking action removes fear. Like NML says “don’t hold yourself back based on fear because when you live your life out of fear & base your decisions around it it’s half a life.” Sometimes we have to make choices that will cause us to suffer the loss of a person we are connected to and we don’t want to feel the pain of grief so we stay in limbo land and do nothing. It never easy letting go of what you wanted. Take the time and keep trying to push beyond the discomfort of letting go. Once you do it, you won’t have to worry about doing it anymore and stressing out about it anymore because it’s finally done. You are free of it. Now you can take all the energy and effort that you where using being in limbo and use it where you will get even more benefit-use it on yourself and your grieving and healing. Give yourself a pat on the back that you took control and have let go of something that doesn’t serve you and you now have room for better things to come your way.