A few months back while creating a class for one of my courses, I decided to conduct an experiment on me and note what I used to look for in a partner and the list…. was short and very embarrassing. Good looking but not a necessity if they 1) pursued me hard and/or 2) made me laugh, as well as tall, intelligent, good job, gives me the butterflies which admittedly seemed to be generated by them needing to be something else – ambiguous in some way – which no doubt left plenty of room for my imagination to run riot. That was pretty much it.
None of these things said anything about the character of the person or even what they would share with me in the direction of a relationship, which explains why my relationships were a hot mess that left me perplexed at why I wasn’t happy with my ‘type’ while at the same time I became very good at silencing that inner voice that kept piping up with evidence of real concerns.
It never occurred to me to consider these things because I didn’t really like or love me and a lot of what I sought in others was really about the surface things that I could appreciate in me.
What we don’t value in ourselves, we don’t value in others, and sometimes, what we value in others is because we want that for ourselves and we can end up undervaluing and overvaluing the wrong things.
We can be attracted to and like people for any damn reason we like but they won’t all hold up off paper. If we’re going to make value judgments about people driven by making assumptions, if we’re not going to dig too deep and are essentially going to be led by our vaginas / penises and our Zsa Zsa Zu internal butterfly and firework machines which we expect to do the detective work and act as People Pickers with quality assurance responsibilities, we have to realise that we’re going to keep coming up against the painful outcomes that these actions and mentalities bring.
All of this stuff is powered by unhealthy/unrealistic beliefs that we use to attach meaning to the things that we’re attracted to. We see qualities, characteristics and certain values and our minds leap ahead and assume the presence of ‘everything else’ that we think that someone who has the former will be.
- They’re a certain religion… Oh well they’ll be honest, eager to commit and want to get married.
- They’re very important and popular… Oh they must be someone of upstanding character.
- They’ve been married before… Oh that means that they’re capable of commitment.
- Their favourite book is The Great Gatsby and you both like hiking and yada yada yada… Oh we’re perfect for each other.
- They said that they’re very honest… Oh so they are very honest.
Values are about what you believe that you need in order to live your life authentically. We are at our happiest when we’re living congruently with our own values instead of busting them up in an attempt to live other people’s values.
You may be compatible with someone in terms of appearance, attraction, common interests and how they can make your body sing but, if you don’t share core values which would reflect the way that you each want to live as well as having a common / compatible direction, you’re incompatible. It means that you have the secondary values without the core primary values and the former only carry weight when the latter exist. Core value issues is a deal breaker.
However it doesn’t stop there.
Sometimes you do appear to share core values with someone – it appears that you share similar relationship / economic / social (how you see the world) / religious values etc., and yet you’re unhappy and the relationship may even be quite unhealthy. Why? Because you don’t share personal values which are the values that say who you are – your character.
And yes, sometimes you share personal values with someone but they don’t want the same things – you diverge on other core values – and this makes you incompatible. You end up thinking “But we’re so similar!” but you’re not going out with a clone of you and they’re allowed to have a different direction.
Values and character are self-evident so there’s no need for the projection of assumptions and potential. Of course… it just depends on what you’re looking for or what you’re blinded to.
Ultimately someone may possess the values that you think you need in order to have the relationship you want, but somewhere along the way, you’re incompatible and possibly blinded by the existence of other stuff that you may be using to minimise the significance of the incompatibility.
You either don’t share the core values that you think (or your core values aren’t what you’ve thought that they were), or you do share core values but on the personal values front which forms the key component in your core values, you clash and that makes you incompatible.
Personal values trump everything so you can like or love someone for whatever reasons you feel like, but if they don’t have the character to honour the things that they’ve said they’ll be and do or to match what you’re expecting from them, then yes you’re incompatible. This doesn’t mean that you cannot look for whatever it is that you look for in people but it’s time to look for and value character and value it based on consistent evidence and experience, not jumping to conclusions about what people ‘like you’ or what people who do X,Y,Z ‘should’ be or do.
Your thoughts?
About the Author:
Natalie Lue is the founder and writer of Baggage Reclaim and author of the books Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl, The Dreamer and the Fantasy Relationship and more. Learn more about her here and you can also follow her on Facebook and Twitter - @baggagereclaim .
Natalie (NML) – who has written 1082 posts on Baggage Reclaim by Natalie Lue.
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rev, I met my husband when I was 30. It was a year and a half after I ended my relationship with the
math professor who took up my 20′s. That will be part I, III, and IV of my story (well, I ended up on Baggagereclaim for a reason). I’d had a rollercoaster romance and finally went NC. Dated a few really nice men, 2 very interested in long term committed relationships with me, but after math professor I just wasn’t ready yet.
Then I was giving up on men and met my husband. I
wasn’t looking for a husband. I saw him as a nice man, and after a few dates thought, this is my long lost best friend. When he walked in the room I didn’t want to rip his clothes off,like I had with math professor, but I felt comfortable, could talk with him about anything. He wasn’t looking for a model, but for someone who had a brain, was well read, who thought about things. We had tons of common interests, but our core values-we wanted someone we could talk to, who let us be ourselves, that we could be natural with. I recently asked him why he married me, made that leap to commitment til death we do part and he said, “you were the nicest person I had ever met…and it still holds true to this day”. And he is the nicest, truest man and best man I ever met, a perfect match. However, that said, I have learned we do not chose who we fall in love with, but we do choose who we love. I would die for him, I love him, our son, our daughter in law, my grandson my family. But we
humans are animals with deep psychological, emotional needs, coloured by our childhood experiences. We are influenced by hormones, the media, our parents, our life experiences, and greater things like religious and ethical values.
I have been content, happy. and full of gratitude for this man for 31 years. I was NC for 32 years and never expected to see the math professor again, then one day, I ran into him again and all hell broke loose. I am happy to say after over a year of BR and true NC again, and a husband who really loves me through thick and thin I’ve been processing the math professor attraction (Part I. III and IV). And as we all come to find out from NML, it wasn’t about us for them or them for us. It’s about ourselves, our life’s journey of self discovery.
Simple Pleasures. Enjoyed your post and looking forward to Part I, III & IV
.. My 19 mths NC have been full of sadness,anger,heartache,tears & alot of me time. I realised I have had a broken choser my entire life when it comes to who I fall in love with. My priorites were all screwed up. Currently I have NO desire to date or even put myself out there to meet anyone. I just dont care about meeting anyone. Right now my life is full with work, kids, grandkids & my furry friends.THat is good enough for me now. My last relationship really took a toll on my mental attitude towards men & relationships. Sometimes alone time is just what we need to get our life back on the right track.
Oh Simple Pleasures.
he said, “you were the nicest person I had ever met…and it still holds true to this day”.
That was such a sweet sentiment. Thanks for telling me this! You march right into wherever your husband is right now and you give him a BIG HUG and tell him that he’s a solid dude. Thanks for responding to my comment, SP. It was very soothing to read your experience. It’s always darkest before the dawn, they say. Well right now, romance-wise, I can’t even see my own hand in front of my face. But I’m facing East.
Also, Simple Pleasures:
Unfortunately, my response to your very complete comment is only about 20% of the appreciation I have for all you shared (re: life, past relationships, etc.) but unfortunately, time doesn’t permit me to blather on today. Maybe for another day….
To be the exception to the rule, you’d inherently have to put up with a lot of shit first. No need to have that need.
A friend was telling me recently about what her husband’s therapist once said to her – my friend had split up with her husband and he was doing some desperate last ditch therapy to try to save the marriage. The therapist didn’t know if the changes would “stick” and he said that if a person got 80% or more of their relationship needs met in a relationship that this was acceptable….around 60% was becoming something to look at and 30-40% was probably really really time to get out. Simplistic yes, but it made sense to me. I think I tried to make my 30% seem like it was enough and it wasn’t.
But I also think this applies to the environments we live and work in too. We can construct our lives to a degree to compensate for a lack of interest, excitement, support for our values and lack of potential in our environment but if our environment (work, where we live, family) only is giving 20% then this is really serious. I don’t think that with all the effort in the world we can overcome some of this.
A member of my family had a terrible job experience a few years back with toxic people who really were damaging to him. The story is complicated but he was completely blameless and a character attack was mounted on him by a few people in efforts to destroy him. All his energy and that of his partner went to try to deal with it and keep up their sense of good self esteem. But at a certain point it was just too damaging. So despite losing a LOT of money, pulling up stakes, uprooting children etc. they made the decision to get out and “start over” They had a lot of other problems at the time too including dealing with a serious illness in their family. They risked a HUGE amount economically and with two young children. But they ended up in a MUCH better place with people who are really appreciative and who are supportive and welcoming. It can happen.
It reminded me of times (like now!) when I take bad things about ME from my (in this case work environment) even though they are not warranted but if I changed my environment things would likely be different.
I’ve been reading and re-reading this. I’ve been having a bad week.
I talked about my ex a few days ago, and how a) went to a sex worker because he was feeling angry that I had gone out without him, and b) had different ideas about safe sex. These two issues came to a head at the same time, and we broke up on NYE.
At some point a few weeks ago, he contacted me to say he wanted to get back together. At that stage he said he loved me, and was ok with keeping having safe sex.
I really wanted to get back together with him, but I was worried about what the relationship would be like if I did. I was really really upset about the sex worker. I was scared that, the next time we had a disagreement, he would do something like that again.
I tried to explain this to him, and that I wanted to go slowly with the relationship, just meeting for dinner, and conversation, for a while. So that we could rebuild a feeling of trust, and connection Because he had been diagnosed bipolar , I also said that I wanted him to keep taking his medication, and seeing his therapist regulary. Because, I couldn’t handle the mood swings, and how hurtful he could be whenever something angered him.
Basically, he thought I was being unreasonable , and walked off. THat was pretty much the end of him trying with me, and I have not heard from him since, for a couple of weeks. I sent him a text once, but he hasn’t replied.
I wasn’t asking him to do any of this as a way of making him jump through hoops. I was so torn up by the breakup, and just didnt want to risk going through the paine again. Part of me feels, if he cared about me, he would understand why I asked for the things I did, . But , the other part of me feels I blew my chance. It doesn’t help that I’ve talked to various friends, and some have said I was blowing the sex work thing out of proportion. But, to me, sexual fidelity is one of my really really core values, in a relationship. I wasn’t PRETENDING to feel betrayed, I really did feel that way.
I guess I’m posting here asking for reassurance, that the way I acted was what I needed to do. I’ve been second guessing myself all week, and whether I expect too much from relationships, and so will be alone forever.
Geekgirl,
I too would EXPECT sexual and emotional fidelity. It is one of my core values. And you were betrayed. He just showed you his colors, and you are better off without him. I think what you suggested, would be totally acceptable to a man, who felt guilty about what he did to the relationship, and if he wanted to regain your trust, he would do whatever was necessary. You honored yourself. I applaud you for it. For me, when I put some new boundaries in place, what will make me feel safe, and ok, again, others look at it differently. I am not responsible for them and their reactions to my boundaries. If they don’t respect them, then they don’t respect me.
The hardest thing about sticking to your principles is that, well, not everyone else will agree with you. It seems like he wanted to go back to how things were, but you wanted to take it slower, and that is certainly your right. It also sounds like he went to a sex worker just to spite you, which I think is a huge red flag. Either way, you’re not being unreasonable.
geekgirl. U are NOT over reacting & your request of him are spot on. For me infidelity is a one time your out clause. There are no second chances. My thoughts are if they did it once they will do it again, someday,sometime. And I cant waste my life worrying about where he is at or who he is with and what is he doing. Its a trust thing & once thats is gone its very hard if even possible to get back. I would say thank your lucky stars he is MIA from you life. Believe me I know how hard it is to walk away from someone. Been there done that but it was the best decision I ever made for ME.. It was not easy & there were some really tough days but I had to sit thru them. I prayed alot for peace, contentment & serenity. Be good to you …
Geek
Who are these so called friends who think it is okay to use a sex worker under any circumstances, never mind when you are supposed to be in a relationship? What sort of people are they?
To me sex is supposed to be an act of love or at least affection and if you feel that it’s okay to use a woman’s body without either and knowing she feels nothing for you that says something very very telling about you, that you can dehumanise and be dehumanised.
Not to mention all the really nasty stuff associated with the sex industry such as people trafficking, child abuse, drugs and violence.
Anyway, as far as the guy goes, he has shown you twice that he does not care, first with what he did and second with his refusal to take it slow in getting back together.
I would also add that as a child of an unmedicated bipolar parent, I would be very wary of signing up for more of that if you are already finding it difficult. That’s a whole other subject but let’s just say it’s not a good way to live.
Being with this man would be WORSE than being alone – even if that was the stark choice, which it isn’t.
Geek,
Your words about the rages reminded me of a discussion I had with my therapist on that subject. It is traumatising being around someone who blows up like that. She says I have some sort of PTSD from it and wants to try EMDR. i dont dont want to dwell on the past but nevertheless it has had an lingering effect on me. Don’t even consider any kind of future with
someone who does this.
Geekgirl,
What everyone else said. Plus, one thing I think I’ve figured out is that if you have to explain your values to someone, you don’t share the same values. Also, explaining your values to someone never changed theirs. For example, people could tell me why I should go to church and claim Jesus as my saviour til they’re blue in the face, and I can respect that doing so is very important to them, but none of that would ever turn me towards those behaviours. If I ever wanted to do those things, the choices would come from internal motivation, not from some outside argument.
Same with frequenting sex workers. For some people it’s like smoking. Yeah, you know it’s not the nicest thing, and some people will look down on you, but you are going to smoke if you darn well feel like it (or maybe, if you have a person you want to keep close, promise you’ll stop smoking, but sneak out for one when they’re not around every now and then – what she doesn’t know won’t hurt, right?). Substitute a lunch-hour of paid sex for that cigarette and you’ve got the value system of many (not all, by any means) people.
Geek,
Cheating – especially with a hooker – is a deal breaker! How could you ever respect this guy, again! Also, are you willing to lose your life (AIDS) for someone who does not value you?
Please rethink your own worth, and why you would consider a return to a very dangerous situation.
I would also find some new friends!
Geek girl. C’mon. Geeks are smart! Everyone knows that. Why don’t you? Here you have this elegant yet sexy gut with an IQ of eleventy million telling you that this guy is all kinds of wrong, and you are second guessing it? MORAL; listen to the gut. Not only is it devastatingly gorgeous, it has a Phd in freak spotting.
OK, so if you aren’t listening to your gut, maybe you’ll listen to my cranky ass. Flap those ears girlfriend, you’re about to catch some sense.
Let’s think about it like this. You’re making a cake, and you need a carton of eggs. You go to the store, and mosey into the egg section (note the produce guy who’s squeezing some melons suggestively whilst looking in your direction. Wait; what are we doing here again? Oh yeah. Ignore that guy. EGGS). Now because you’re a choosy kind of gal who who wants to get value for money (not to mention, make yourself one tasty ass caaaaake), you peek under the lid of a sweet looking six pack and to your dismay ZOMG YOU ALMOST VOMIT ONTO THE ADJACENT CHEESE DISPLAY. Those eggs are fucked UP. There are yolks where the whites should be and busted up shells everywhere. The rancid stench of sulphur assaults your nostrils. Melon guy turns away disgusted, as you retch into the dairy case. So you hastily put em back, and pick up another carton and gingerly lift the lid. You smile, as inside you find six gleaming, intact eggs. (OK so one or two of them may have a little chicken shit still clinging to them…but that’s OK. You know they’re fresh, they came from a bona fide chicken and it’s what’s inside the shells that’s going to make your cake the tastiest thing since, well, sliced cake.)
OK, this shitty analogy is getting tired and so Ima going just say it. Girl, you’ve looked under that lid. And not just a peek, you have stared into it. I wish I could say you just had a mild case of chicken shit going on in that carton but no. It’s the full, messed up rancid deal in there. YOU AIN’T MAKING NO CAKE WITH THIS GUY. Moreover? How in hell is it your fault the eggs were broken? They were like that when you got there!
AND, you expect to get what it says on the box! The only way you shouldn’t have been surprised by his inability to understand your sense of betrayal is if the box said ‘stinking pile of useless shit’ on it instead of simply ‘eggs’ (sorry I think I just made a metaphor omlette).
Also. Asshole had to PAY someone to have sex with him. Do we need to say more? Hmmn? Hmmmmmmnnnnnn?
Tl;dr When faced with the choice, DO NOT CHOOSE THE BROKEN ONES. If you do, do not be surprised if you end up unable to make a cake at all, or with a shitty cake that falls apart or a cake that fails to rise or a cake that is just crumbs or a cake that promises to be tasty but HELLO SOMETHING MAJOR IS MISSING or whatever other lame cooking metaphor speaks to your soul. You put those shitty eggs back, and you step away from the shelf, sister.
Thanks so much everyone, for your comments. Most of the time I KNOW I did the right thing. But sometimes the missing him gets painful enough to make me start questioning myself. So , that’s when reading this site really helps.
On a bright note, today is the first day in two weeks I haven’t cried. I’m about one year into a PhD, which I something I’ve wanted to do for age (I’m 35 now). But because of all the issues we had, I’ve been struggling for the last couple of months. This week, I actually got a bunch of stuff done. So, I’m feeling pretty ok, atm .
Ms Determined
You are one of the wonders of the web. Can you start your own agony aunt blog? You are truly fabulous at advice.
Utterly splendid stuff
X
Hysterical Determined but spot on!
Ms Determined, your post was amazingly witty funny and wise. Love your style girl. You should write!
Wait, what? Ladies! I do write! In fact I’m writing this from the palatial private yacht I bought with the proceeds of my NUMBER ONE international JK-Rowling-jealous-rage-inducing bestseller; Relationships. How to Have Them and Shit..
Of course having had so many
husbands who turned out to be gaysuccessful and healthy relationships I am happy to share mysack of cranky flavoured bullshitpearls of wisdom with you poor, less fortunate souls. But first, a caution. Following my advice may lead to becoming TOO successful in relationships. For example, you wouldn’t believe how difficult it was having to removethe last assclown’s balls with a pair of nail clippersthe 47 emotionally healthy hunks who camped out on my front lawn last week, each one more desperate than the last to win my affections (the infighting was atrocious).I am totally spoilt for choice. In fact, that weird guy from IT who probably secretly also self pleasures whilst thinking of Daniel Craig Daniel Craig popped by not five minutes ago. Healthy, desirable dudes just won’t leave me alone! Hooray for me!
Lucky for all you ladies my life-changing book that will like, literally change your life is available in soft copy. You can download it FREE here (first to download gets a pair of used nail clippers! ZOMFG ACT NOW!)
http://www.areyouhighbecauseyoumust betotallyoutofyourfuckingmind.com
Mmmn. This stuff is probably best left to Nat.
Laughing out loud! My friends use me as a gaydar, if I fancy someone they say he must be gay as I have had THREE exes turn out to be gay!!!!
Your life sounds fabulous Ms D and I would certainly buy your book.
My first boyfriend was gay.
(I was 15-16). He was wonderful, played classical piano, took painting at the big city art museum,and we shared a love of drama club.He
went on to be a theater professional. But we had so much fun together, worked on political campaigns and he took me to the prom. He didn’t
pressure me for sexual experiences (ofcourse at the time I wondered why), but we really liked each other for ourselves. After a year it was clear to him that he was gay so he went in another direction with his friends, but to this day I have the utmost respect for him. He set the
standard of how people should treat each other in a relationship, he treated me with trust, respect, dignity, and love. As a result I am a strong supporter of gay rights. I’m all in favor of good people who have the ability to love.
Geekgirl –
You definitely made the right decision. Not only was what he did totally inappropriate (cheating – and with a sex worker at that), it also potentially put YOUR health and safety at risk. That is not a sign of someone who loves you or cares for you deeply. If he feels you “blew your chance,” consider that blown chance a God-sent gift.
@ Tinkerbell:
“Hey my girl, Gina. You are so together. I’ve read your posts from way back and watched you learn and grow. Thanks so much for sharing your wisdom.”
Tink, you are welcome, but girl, I am still a hot mess!! Experience has been a wonderful teacher, but my journey is ongoing.
I am so glad to read that you have found a wonderful man! Cherish every moment that you have together. Remember: the best form of revenge from the ex AC/EUM is a life well lived.
Girl, when I meet Mr. Right, you will hear about it on the news because I will be the woman who was found dead lying in bed next to my beloved with a big smile on my face (due to my heart exploding from too much joy and happiness) the next morning.
XOX
Thank you for another excellent post. It makes so much sense. It’s so easy to get caught up in the superficial stuff and forget what really matters – a person’s character. Thank you
I just want to mention a book that has been mentioned in posts before; “Attached” by Levine and Heller. It is about attachment theory and has been indespensible in outlining why we wind up in these pairings. My therapist loaned it to me, I’m buying my own copy as everytime I read it, I get more out of it. And for those of you wondering where all the ‘good’ ones are – these assclowns only make up 25 percent of the population, but, they spend more time in the dating pool for obvious reasons, so we will run into them more often, but the good ones make up 50 percent of the population, so they are out there, just keep up the work on ourselves and we’re bound to spot them when they do turn up in our lives! There is hope, just keep going it WILL happen.
Had a weird day yesterday that completely exemplified what it means to have differences in core values. There was a person I considered a close friend. We worked in the same field, had the same interests, had similar career goals, etc. A year ago, she had suddenly ragequit on our friendship without much explanation, or even a fight, and even if I could guess what happened, to this day I am still not sure. We briefly reconnected yesterday, but it made me realize that our values were so much different. Of course, I don’t know her side of the story, if there is one, but she seemed to prefer pretending like she’d never cut off contact in the first place and brushed it off as us “being busy.” I guess some people are ok with doing that, but now I realize that I just don’t like it. I’d rather fight it out first or find some closure to what happened in the past before I resume any close friendship that just ended like this. This is a person who used to be my friend, but because of the differences in how we resolve conflict, I think it’s just time for me to move on from this.
I want a man with the following values: love, trust, monogamy, balance, spirituality. I WON’T settle for anything else/less.
My ex showed he had the following values: hate, dishonesty, promiscuity, extremes, atheism (no hate toward atheists. I have friends who are and I completely respect their beliefs).
obviously on a romantic scale this would never work for us. I got out very, very hurt. It’s taken me a year to recover an I’m still not completely there.
Right now I’m just living every moment, trying to practice gratitude for each and every moment no matter how bad it hurts sometimes. I’m not focused on men right now. Too much focus on them is what got me into trouble in the first place. I see them as human beings capable of faults and greatness just like us women. (Though I don’t think men and women are the same on all fronts. That thinking got me into trouble too). But I don’t see them as a superior sex deserving of excuses and an easy way out of dealing with emotions, nor do I see them as the sole holders to the key of my happiness. That’s bullshit. And some are eager to make sure us women believe the eronious idea that a man could/should make us happy because after all, if we believe a man holds the power to our happiness, then we’d (and too often do) put up with anything and everything as to not lose that illusion of happiness. It’s an illusion. Never give your power up to anyone by deeming yourself inferior.
Jazzy — awesome message! You are on the right path now. Keep it up.
Victory: after near a year I feeling like I couldn’t live without the AC, I’m reaching a tipping point from all the work I’ve done. You see we’ll never reach a tipping point with the assclown where their love matches ours. With ourselves, how hard you work, even when you feel like it isn’t working, will be matched. It’s a culminating thing. Now I pretty much just want to eat good, learn about art and eat chocolate.
Here’s another interesting occurrence: I was always made to believe I was fat by my family, bullies, and basically the outside world. I’m not. I thought I was real fat when I met the ex. I wasn’t. I was just a bit above average wieght for my height. I lost 20 pounds in a month (for him). I vowed I’d never go back to being ‘fat’ again if we ever broke up. Well, you know what, I did break it off (he was a total alcoholic AC) and I gained every inch of it back, and that is FINE by me because there is nothing wrong with my weight or the way my body looks. I’m as I’m supposed to be and it’s pretty beautiful. But because I couldn’t see it at the time I was a prime candidate for a narc.