Today is the final part of my 3 part explanation of the fundamentals of boundaries in relationships. In part one, I explained why boundaries are necessities, how boundaries are mostly taught through actions, how we teach people how to teach us, and how the core thread of human behaviour in relationships is acceptance and rejection. In part two, it was the big revelation that even if you don’t have boundaries, he does, plus I explained the necessity of consequences, and how ‘NO’ is not a dirty word. Here is the final 3….
8. Don’t use assumptions to drive your expectations of how others should behave
There’s a lot of reason why there is that saying about how making assumptions will make an ‘ass’ out of you – In speaking with many women over the last few years and reading the comments on this site, I see variations of this notion that we assume that because we think, feel, and act a certain way that the other person will do what we expect. This can feed into this idea that there are no boundaries necessary because surely the other party will do the right thing because they love you, care about you, are sleeping with you, or saying all of the right things?
Assumptions are not the same as expectations and you can’t have expectations of someone and a relationship without having boundaries.
Just as importantly though, you must sanity check your assumptions and expectations to unsure that you’re not under or over expecting…
Life is not a fairy tale. People don’t always do the right thing or even the thing that we expect. Yes it would be nice to assume and expect that everyone will play nice and be respectful within relationships, but there are too many factors that impact on a persons behaviour within a relationship to do this.
As women we find it far easier to deny the reality of someone’s behaviour, continue to make assumptions and expectations, and continue to let them cross boundaries or test them as we opt for dining off potential and being ‘optimistic’.
Claiming that you love, care, or want someone doesn’t give you an IOU to claim on and you cannot make assumptions or have expectations about someone who doesn’t have both feet in a relationship where there are no boundaries in place to ensure that you are not disrespected.
Assuming leads to uncommunicated expectations, which more often than not leads to boundary issues and this is because as discussed in part two, you are not communicating your boundaries, whether that is verbally or through actions.
Creating boundaries for your relationships leads to you being able to understand your expectations of a relationship. Where there is one, there is the other.
What is surprising though is that we love assuming and expecting without the boundaries in place to reflect our ‘ideals’…
If you look at it like this: If your boundaries are that you are only prepared to be involved with men who not attached to anyone else, who don’t disrespect you, who contribute to the relationship, who behave with honesty and integrity with you and others, and who don’t abuse you, drugs, alcohol etc, you not only will expect that a man will stay within these boundary lines but you won’t actually find yourself accepting the attention of a lying cheat that has a penchant for coke… You’ll tell him to walk and keep walking.
9. When someone disrespects your boundaries, it’s unlikely to be just once. Where one boundary bust exists, there’s others.
This is why it’s important not to be short sighted and look at the overall picture. Instead of going – but he has some nice qualities or he’s great on his good days – it’s looking beyond the trees to the wood and saying – well most people have their good points but I cannot ignore the fact that he has done X, Y, and Z and that does not work for me.
Say it with me – If my boundaries are being crossed, this does not work for me. I can fight it, I can demand that they comply, but if nothing changes, it does not work for me.
This is why it is important to distinguish between what is completely unacceptable and what constitutes a wake up and pay attention warning.
The former means you opt out straight away – these are your core boundaries that should not change.
The latter means that you are not only aware of a potential problem but that you address it to ensure that it’s not something bigger that leads to it being a no-go. These are like your warning lights on the way to the boundary zone that give you indicators.
There’s no point in him sharing the same interests as you (for eg skiing, drinking fine wine, great for debating politics with etc), if the guy is a frickin assclown that won’t commit, won’t grow up, isn’t sure what he wants with you, screws around on you, calls you names, and repeatedly disrespects you and the relationship.
I wouldn’t feel that my boundaries had been crossed if a guy wanted to split the bill on the date but I would feel my boundaries had been crossed if he didn’t turn up, or if he said that he would call in a few days, but instead I heard from him several weeks later talking to me like we’d just spoken the day before…
Stick with a guy like this and he’ll always feel he can breeze in and out of your life, and even if you bollock him and tell him he’s out of line, he eventually figures out what what the maximum amount of time is that he can get away with not calling and he’ll ride with that.
10. Having boundaries is not just about ensuring that people don’t disrespect you – It’s about ensuring that you don’t keep putting yourself in situations where YOU end up disrespecting YOU.
Boundaries act as a signal that says step back. Your core boundaries should be your deal breakers, your ‘unacceptables’, your red flag, abort mission, the I don’t care what my libido or what I think my heart says, I’ve got to get out…for me.
If a guy tried to be overtly sexual with me on a first date or made an attempt to sleep with me, a warning alert would go to my brain. If he persisted and wouldn’t drop it, the alert would turn into a boundary crossing and I knew it was game over no credits.
You need to know your limits. This is liking, loving, and trusting your instincts so that even in those times when you do start to get carried away, that your core values and foundations that drive your boundaries, give you a base to come home to roost on…and get real and stay real.
That negative voice you have at times has no bounds and will leave you indecisive as you become riddled with self-doubt so you just ride the wave and hope everything will pan out because you don’t have a basis to sanity check your instincts against. Don’t allow negativity to power your decisions because you will end up with a negative result.
Your thoughts?
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Natalie, I love this post and you have no idea how perfect it is for me. Luckly I am stuck home with the big north east snow today and had a chance to reflect. I have had NO boundries over the past 4 years since going through a divorce, getting involved with a MM, and other EUM’s with the notion of having fun and free wheeling freedom. I am working on listening to my gut and opening my mouth, not in a b…tchy way but diplomatic. Example: with all the crazyiness of what was going on with the MM yesterday I had a first date with someone last night which went well. Today he asked me if on our next date we could just hang out at each others houses and watch a movie. UGGG. I paused and said, “I’m going to follow the advice i give my friends and say that I will be more comfortable going out someone when we’ve just met.” (pat on back–yippee!) He said “What ever U want.” phew. Thanks soooo much….
I meant to say go out somewhere. This was an internet date.
nysharon,
I’ve had the same problem with a guy I just started to see. He wanted us to hang out at his house and I told him no that I was not comfortable doing that. He kept insisting and I kept saying no. Yeah…I’m proud of that too.
Mariposa,
This guys is not respecting you or your boundaries by continuing to push, he also sounds like he is only interested in sex. I would see this as a major red flag and move on.
Gaynor,
Yeah…you might be right. I think sometimes I have a hard time seeing the red flags. He kept saying how he would respect me. How he was a virgin until he was 35 and he can hold back. Yeah…I don’t think I’m going to go out with him anymore.
What?????????????????? He’s a virgin at 35???? Do you think he’s lying or is he doing it for religious reasons?
He says that he’s a devout catholic. I’m not sure if I believe him though. He could just be feeding me a line. I don’t trust anybody anymore.
I hear you!!!
Is he a former priest? Are you religious as well?
No he’s not a former priest and I’m not that religious. I actually met him on the subway, so I had no idea he was so religious or so he says.
It seems like half the women on this site live in NYC.
Hon, that’s another thing to consider, one that’s extremely religious and one thats not. Just a thought.
Says a lot about the bozos we have to deal with here. So many of my female friends have difficulty finding normal men in this city.
I don’t live in NYC, but it’s just as bad.
Unfortunately, yes!!!
Hey Mariposa and NYSharon,
You are both going through strange and weird withdrawl. Leave it at that. No excuses. Just do what you know you have to do. I hope you can. We don’t need to read your failures over and over again. YOU can do this! Let’s read your successes’s afterirall. Best to you. TS.
Great ending to the series. 🙂
Thanks NML!! You are the best!!! 🙂
I have never experienced such exhaustive ‘relationship’ as with my ex-eum that I still, after several ‘break ups’ during several years and my firm decisiom to stay NC, I feel exhausted, messed up, sometimes anxious and sometimes even I have some kind of fear (I don’t know how to define this feeling) that this creep will try to contact me (each time somebody sends sms to me I feel sick thinking it’s him). There are moments when I still fell anger and hatred for him, all the more that I am not that kind of person to hate people and to have such negative emotion which are basically poisonous, and that makes me confused and discouraged because I expected to recover much faster. Why this process of recovery takes so long? I cannot figure that out.
sorry, the sentence should be: There are moments when I still fell anger and hatred for him, which disturbs me all the more as I am not that kind of person to hate people and to have such negative emotions which are basically poisonous, and that makes me confused and discouraged because I expected to recover much faster
HI Lilly~my guess is that the negative emotions you feel stem from legitimate anger. We don’t like to experience the anger but I believe there is a place and time. In fact, the only time the negative emotions are poisonous is when they’re repressed or glossed over. Getting mad (for me) was a huge step forward because even though we think we’ll stay mad or sad forever – we won’t. Get mad at the situation and the time / respect lost….but totally love yourself in the process. You deserve that =)
I think when there are successes we usually don’t feel the need to write them out. It’s when we’re feeling bad that we need to write more just to get through the tough period. Isn’t that what this site is about?
I agree mariposa…. when I need to vent or need support or am having a weak moment— I like to know that I have this site available to voice my feelings (whether negative or not) and know that I will not be judged but have others that understand and are there to support!
Thanks Karen! When I feel the most panicky is when I come to this site and read and write. It does help.
Lilly,
How long have you been NC? I know I wish I could go through the pain and forget about him, but unfortunately it’s not that easy. We have to go through the pain I think to learn from this experience. You’re right these relationships are very exhausting.
As a guy, I can’t believe women like you exist. Come on, we just don’t want to be with you any longer. We wait until someone better or more “interesting†comes along and then we move on. Most guys have already figured out with girls like you that we are NOT responsible for your actions. If we string you along time and again and you decide to put up with it, we know it!! If you allow us to have sex with you time and again – especially if we treat you like crap – but think we are committing to you, it’s your own damn fault for the pain you cause yourself when we decide it’s time to move on. You ladies sometimes think we have no right to move on. EVERYONE has that right. Face it, we lost interest in you – for whatever reason we wanted – and moved on. Period. Perhaps we found someone more intelligent, more attractive, more “fun†– we just know that we no longer wanted to be with you.
It’s good to know that men like Mike take no personal responsibility for DELIBERATELY stringing women along. It makes getting over those kinda guys soooooo much sweeter =) Kisses
These men are the ones I hate most, no personal insight, withoutta freaking care in the world, except taking what they want. Why would you want this guy as a father to your children? Thats why your personal boundaries, etc must be tough to see through the crap they speak when they first crawl up to you, so you can kick that ego into touch!!! where it belongs in the gutter. xxxxxx
Ever so often, I review my comments on this website and what stands out to me are the number of times that Twatman treated me poorly and the fact that I still stuck around because I hoped things would improve. In essence, I had no boundaries with this man. Since my first post in June 08, I’m still thinking about him and have been in contact for the last 4 weeks after having been on NC.
I longed for this time to be different, but I was cautious, so I didn’t give him my number. I wanted him to prove himself & win me over. He didn’t even try. I can’t take it anymore. I don’t want to re-read my post weeks from now and still be in this unhealthy, sad place.
I would never string someone along or hurt someone that I care about but apprently, the EUM has absolutely no qulams about engaging in shit*y behaviour with me.
And when one boundary is not enforced, others aren’t either. I should have insisted that he respect my time and called it off when he was perpetually late without apology – if he did show up.
But he definitely maintained his boundaries. He would not commit to the relationship,leave me alone, call me or spend time with. Those were HIS boundaries, twisted as they are. What’s worse thought, is that I threw MY boundaries out the door trying to make this “relationship” work. Madness, I know! I lost my happiness and I still don’t have the relationship that I want.
He has shown me exactly which way the land lies, to use NML’s term, by telling me that “I expect too much from him”. Asking for a phone call, quality time together, involvement in each others lives and a real committed relationship is just too much for him.
So I’ve reviewed my boundaries and made a physical list of what I will and will not accept, and topping the list is disrespect. I simply will not treat myself so badly anymore, and for what? A relationship that is dead on arrival?
As much as the jabs towards women posted by Mike stings, there is that element of truth in it, especially this part:
” If you allow us to have sex with you time and again – especially if we treat you like crap – but think we are committing to you, it’s your own damn fault for the pain you cause yourself when we decide it’s time to move.”
I’m emotionally tired and I am stopping this self destructive behaviour of loving a man who thinks that I expect too much when all I’m asking for is the basics.
I’m wondering why Mike is even on this site.
Wow, what a response. Funny how “Brad K” can post his thoughts but not another guy. Or how about John that basically said the same thing.
To metsgurl… hate to break it to you…. but YOU allow us to do that to you.
When ladies like you start to EXPECT, then that’s when the problem starts. If you would take us a face value – especially in the beginning, you would be better able to determine if we are suitable for you. Men will change – on their terms, and for the woman THEY want to be with. Simple as that. And I read the article regarding texting….. so let me be absolutely upfront about this….. If we text you – we want nothing to do with you other than sex (or “shagging” as I’ve seen it stated this site).
Mariposa.. I’m on this site because I am allowed to be.
Mike:
I guess its your arrogance that is coming across bad. While we appreciate the male perspective (especially one such as yourself) perhaps we could do a little without your rude and arrogant tone. There is a difference between being confident and arrogant. How about taking some responsibility like NML said?
I EXPECT for you to voice your opinions and your advice— I dont EXPECT for you to be rude!
How’s that for having boundries?
oh one more thing:
If you have an arrogant tone……unfortunately it takes away from the valuable information you have to offer because all we are now focused on is HOW you are communicating it and not what you are saying!
You ladies (and man) can take my posts as you like. The fact is, I am a guy that is telling you from a guys perspective, that if you get involved with a man that does not respect you from the beginning – as in blows off a date, does not call when he says, does not take an active interest in your life, (insert your example here), – and you continue to see this person, then your boundaries have already gone out with window. You can’t MAKE a man fall in love with you, date you or even contact you the proper way. We will contact you the way WE want to, but it’s up to you do with that information as you wish. Just because you decide to stick around and HOPE we will change, does not entitle you to bash a guy because he decides he wants to bail. What did you bring to the relationship in the beginning? Were you whining, complaining, have trust issues? We can sense that early on, in case you didn’t know that about us.
Wow Karen….. you equate being truthful with being Rude… how sad for you. You all want to figure out what’s wrong with us but when the truth is told, now all of a sudden we are RUDE.
Mike ,
I agree with the majority of your last post. But, if a man is purposely misleading a woman and telling her he is in love with her and that they are moving towards a relationship, how is that supposed to be interpreted. Thank God, I bailed quickly but the deceit on his part is unforgivable.
Honestly, you did come off as being a callous SOB. How would you feel if a man were treating your sister or mother in this manner? Just because the opportunity is there to abuse a relationship does not mean you have to do it. What happened to decency, kindness and respect? We all have the opportunities to mistreat people, thankfully the majority do not utilize this power, only the narcissistic ones do.
Gaynor…. I absolutely agree with you that when a MAN does that… he is a total A-Hole. The point I’m making is that a woman should be able to determine at some point when she is being strung along – and then take the appropriate action – which is to BAIL. Sure, there are men that do that to woman on a constant basis, but 1) these men are certainly aware they are doing it, and 2) the woman allows them to do it. I mean come on, if I told you over and over again that i would change and never did… how many times would it take for you to realize that I’m not going to? It should not take months or God forbid, YEARS to determine that a guy is a complete jackass. But since I’ve posted today, most of the responses have still been blaming the man for his actions and that’s not entirely accurate. If we cheat, lie, screw your best friend, are are MARRIED…. jesus, leave us the hell alone. We are not worthy of any of the love that YOU want to give us. We aren’t ready for that level of commitment so please don’t put yourself through the torment. With men, ACTIONS really do speak louder than any WORDS that come out of our mouth. We are quite capable of talking out both sides of our mouth. We will say what you want to hear to 1) get you to quit nagging and 2) try to get you to sleep with us – especially in the beginning. However, at some point we will change and put that effort into a relationship – OF OUR CHOOSING. That’s when we will go from an EUM to a decent guy. Just please don’t screw yourself up by waiting for that to happen. I don’t mean you personally, any woman in general.
Mike
Uhm………I Guess you missed my whole point it isn’t what you’re saying (which most of us have agreed is valuable information from a valuable perspective) its HOW YOU ARE SAYING It!
And truth be told (as you put it) I agree with Gaynor…. the deceit on the part of the person who KNOWS that they are taking advantage is unforgivable. Like I said………. take some responsibility as we all agree that we need to take responsibility for being involved with A**clowns. It seems you can’t do that— maybe you like this type of attention?? Typical of an EUM. May I ask… what made you come to this site? You must have been searching for something…..
Mike,
I agree with you completely!
A man did treat my sister like that… she actually posted here “chloe” if anyone has read her posts. She’s going thru complete hell and I would have loved to kick this guy’s ass all over, but what would that do for her? Nothing. I can’t tell you how many times she has cried to me about it and I absolutely feel bad for her – christ sake – that’ my sister. But she does know that she allowed that shit to happen even after EVERYONE told her to dump his ass. And instead, he dumped her. Couldn’t take the “drama” – of what??? Her wanting a “decent” relationship. Hell, for 2 years nobody knew the a-hole existed in her life because he would never come around her friends or our family. That’s why I’m posting.
Chloe is good people – even if she is my sister and you think I’m a complete prick. No woman deserves the crap I’ve read, but he didn’t force it on her, didn’t hold a gun to her head, etc. She wanted him more than he wanted her. She knows that and she’s working thru it.
It would have been nice to kick his ass, though
OK, here’s the thing. I don’t think that Mike is being rude – he’s being brutally honest. There is a difference. I do brutal honesty it’s just that this is my site and most people are prepared to take it. Mike’s a bit like ‘the enemy’ because he’s ‘one of them’ and he’s saying it how it is. Could he dress it up a little and not be quite so brutally honest? – Yes probably but I suspect that the essence of what he’s saying would be lost. That’s actually pretty hard sometimes to stomach but he is actually saying things that need to be said – he’s just not putting any fluff around it.
This is how a lot of guys in these type of relationships think. As women, we can’t stop dodging the bullet and wondering why a guy like this didn’t behave better – he just didn’t and the best thing you can do with a man like Mike is process the true meaning of his actions and run.
It is not someone else’s responsibility to to enforce your boundaries – it’s up to you. These guys can’t abuse a relationship or a situation that has boundaries and that is not being repeatedly encouraged.
These men have no responsibility to you and feel no responsibility to you, which means normal rules of thumb of expectation go out the window.
As for Gaynors guy, he is up in another level of assclowndom because he is seeking to be purposefully mislead. The key here is that yes he’s most definitely an asshole, but you know it and you’re out – that makes you someone who is acting on their responsibility to themselves.
At the end of the day Gaynor, no matter what he said, his actions did not match so what he said didn’t matter. And yes, thank goodness you’re out of it.
Mike
I feel for your sister. And yes you are right. For the most part I think we all tend to beat ourselves up for not having seen the things that you mention sooner. I guess thats why we are on here…visiting this site. It is filled with valuable information and advice to help us from ever being involved in relationships or accepting behavior that may intrinsically know is bad for us but feel stuck or too confused or because of lack of self esteem are having a hard time getting out. I guess some of us see it sooner than others!
I wish I had a brother like you who could have come to kick my EUM’s a**!
Just seen the other comments that came through. Wow – you’re Chloe’s brother and I understand why you need that honesty. What an awful situation and hopefully (and I’m sure you do it in that gruff brotherly supportive way) you can help her move past this. I found your last para about her wanting him very poignant and on point – thank you for sharing.
NML, Thank goodness!!!!!!!!
I completely agree with NML. Mike is being brutally honest. It is just hard for all of us to hear. We so often put all the blame on the men. How could he do this or he did this horrible thing but we all tolerated it. That was our part in these relationships. We stayed and took the crap. We are responsible for ourselves. So all they questions about why did he do this or why did he contact me again – they all have the same answer because we let them, we allowed them to do whatever or to come back. We all, myself included, need to stop concentrating on them and focus on us. Why would we allow this behaviour and what can we do to change ourselves so we never experience men like this again and to be better protected.
Amen Gaynor~
WE DO allow for a man to treat us like crap….so I’m not the least bit delusional. I do find it interesting though, as Gaynor eloquently stated above, that men purposly mislead / lie / deceive women and then have the balls to say “As a guy, I can’t believe women like you exist”. Don’t think that I don’t appreciate an arrogant man’s insight though….please keep posting….I can use and handle the truth
Its funny because even hating them or being angry at these men (or women) keeps us stuck to them and they to an extent still have some power over us. I guess it is a process. I think we recognize (atleast I do) that I played a huge role in allowing things to happen and for not standing up for myself sooner! If anything– I think even holding on to anger isn’t good (Im not saying im going to run and be his best friend tomorrow) but I do realize that at first– I needed to blame him……then from the info on this site etc… I learned that I couldn’t entirely put the blame on him. I did allow it to happen… i did only see what I wanted to see…. I didn’t have strong boundries…. I did keep betting on “potential”. Does anyone else think that hating an exEUM is also not healthy and keeps us stuck? Im sure its part of the process…. but at some point– isn’t the goal to just feel nothing and not be emotionally attached to them anymore in any way? Meaning that we are no longer affected with whether they call or not, with whether we see them or not, with what they are doing…not doing… etc…?? I know that when I absolutely no longer think about this man or care about what he is doing or not doing and that I can look at the relationship and no longer feel hurt by it is when I can honestly say I am completely over this. Is that wrong?
Anger is part of the grieving process. I think it goes denial, anger, depression, acceptance. I think we all feel angry but eventually we get over it and accept that it is over and accept our part in the situation.
Look, you should blame “us” when we don’t treat you right – in the beginning. But continuing to put up with that for any length of time thereafter – is just asking for trouble. Chloe just read my last few posts – thinks I was a bit too harsh. I’m a guy, college educated, good job, but I’m still a guy. Eloquence in writing is NOT my strong suit. Please ladies, men think they DESERVE the hottest, smartest, best “babe” that is out there. So why shouldn’t you ladies think the same thing about YOURSELVES? Telling me to basically “drop dead” when I started posting is what you should do the next time a guy treats you poorly. This site does give great advice – when you decide to use it in your life. Breakups suck, they are supposed to hurt (hence the word “break”) but wanting a guy back that treated you like crap is NUTS!! Just plain NUTS. And we will try to weasel out way back in, but usually only when we have no other option ( and yes, that is an absolute FACT). If you don’t believe anything I’ve written so far, you can believe that last sentence. And if we get back in, we will take what we want, and then disappear faster than you can say “When can i see you again?”
Karen,
That is the place you want to be. Indifference is good!
Hi everyone. My brother can be a complete “MEATHEAD” – more often than not. But,he is 100% correct in what he has posted. I wish he could learn a better way to express it. I hope he didn’t offend too many people today… I know he wants the best for me – actually for all of you. But he is a man, he has treated prior girlfriends this way (notice the word “prior”) so he does know what he’s talking about. Some of these girls have told him to drop dead while others have hung around hoping for a return of the “Not So Great One” as I sometimes call him. I’m just asking that if you ever feel like you want to go back to these guys, please PRINT his posts and tape them everywhere you can and READ them over and over.
Thanks and again, sorry!!
Mike,
Keep posting, I don’t find you rude, just, brutally honest as NML states and Ifind your comments coming from an open and honest POV. I admire your concern for your sister and she, I am sure, is thankful to have a brother like you.
Thanks for posting….Gail
Gotta agree with Mike. I said myself. However, it doesnt take alot to have a bit of integrity does it Mike, if you really dont want the girl dont keep giving her one, Women equate sex with love. As an adult us as real men should process that. It doesnt make me any less of a man to consider a woman, especially an emotionally weak woman, wich us guys can sniff out a hundred paces. I changed a few things and stayed clear of them, yes my options plummeted, but hey its the girls who should be choosing us, thats what we love really. Have some respect for these ladies they’ve all been through the ringer, just like your sister.
Not that NML needs any praise from me, but her posts (the few that I’ve actually read) are 100% dead on accurate. I hope she will continue to post for a very long time.
Thanks – your articles are really helping my sister.
Mike,
I appreciate your honesty. You said what you had to say right out no mincing words.
I saw the red flags in my former relationship and I chose to ignore them. I was afraid to be alone and in the bitter end, I was a gumby doll, twisting my mind to fit his up and down mood swings. I should have kicked my own ass and bounced.
Peace
JohnT
You’re right – but according to your post, YOU changed and steered clear of these women, not the other way around (like it should be). Unfortunately, “integrity” does not have a very high ranking with some of the male population.
See girls, see what a bit kick back does to a man, they change tact, they respond to boundaries, even if they are collective, thats what you should be doing everytime one of the assclowns starts to put it on you, BANG. They either calm down and respond or do one. Sorry Mike you have very valid points, but we girls have had just about enough of having our arses kicked for being loving, yes emotionally weak at times, but noone died of being loved did they, oh unless your a bloke that is.
She’s on one now, there’ll be no living with her now. LOL.
My final post for this article today ( I can hear the collective “Thank God” across the internet).
Everyone (men and women) deserves a healthly relationship where both parties are committed to making it work. Relationships are not easy but if your relationships are about constantly trying to make a guy see how great you are, trust me… he doesn’t and probably never will. And men don’t think with their hearts… so if at all possible, when making that decision whether to leave or stay, leave your heart out of it. That should make your decision 100% easier. If you’ve made the decision to leave, 99.9% of the time that was the right one. We all know it’s hard to date today and everyone comes with a little baggage, (unless they have lived in another solar system for the past 20 years) and that’s normal (at least I think so). That baggage should help you in the future to determine when behavior is unacceptable. Nobody is perfect so don’t even try to be with a man. You could wind up making yourself even more miserable. A man should never be the end all/be all of your life – and I’m a guy telling you that!!
Best of luck to all of you. I’m sure this site will help you in finding the person that you are meant to be with. And by that, i mean the person that treats you with respect!!
If Chloe will allow me to post in the future, I will.
Yes I did because I was leaving devistation in my wake, especially when a woman cldnt be strong enough to leave, I had issues myself, using women for sex blah blah blah. Its no way to live, not for me. However it is up to us all to make healthy choices for ourselves, woman havnt got monoply on this, if we do we meet the ones that matter instead, having options, and treating woman like fuck-jars! Yeah ok they may allow it, but why screw someone over. Its juvinile and crap. People, children get hurt. Everyone has to take responsibility. Like Ive said and Mike has too, men suck, get a grip and kick them into the gutter, before they even try it.
Mike,
I truly hope you keep visiting this site and continue posting!
Chloe– we are all here for you and you are lucky to have a brother like Mike! KEEP STRONG!!! 🙂
What does it mean when a guy(s) tell me that I am too confident? I don’t know whether that means to dumb down or what.
Mike’s comments just make me more determined to stay far far away from the guy I was with, and yes I wish it hadn’t taken me months to see things for what they were …
Isabella.. (sorry, I know I said my other post was the last one)
It means your a challenge and he knows he would have to put some effort into getting anything out of you. So far, you have the upper hand.
Mike, John T and Brad K,
Your posts are great and I enjoy reading from a male’s view too.
Mike.. thank you for your posts. I hope you do come back and post again.
It’s just as important for us to be given the business straight up as it is for us to be supportive (empathetic) of one another.
Personally, Mike shared a lot of good stuff and for me it hurt my feelings a little at first. I think his post triggered something within, maybe it’s that piece of insecurity or low self-esteem. Yep, I got a bit angry too, but then I realized from his posts that he was not trying to attack us but rather gave it to us straight.
Some of our posts go on and on like we all attending a pity party. The one from Mike stopped the pity party and gave me (personally) a wake up call. I appreciate his outspoken demeanor and maybe it could have been toned down a bit at first. But Mike did adjust his posts after reading some of the responses.
Whatever the case, this worked for me. Mike was sort of the guy friend I needed to help me make sense of all the my past with an EUM.
Mike, got a question and need the brutal truth. I let MM blow through my boundaries, my fault. Relationship lasted for a year, he shocked me by saying he loved me a couple of months ago, I did too. The intensity increased after the “I love you’s” then suddenly poof, vanished. I’m crushed, crying and have got to move on. No contact. Will I ever hear from MM again, or is this the end?
fllngdown8,
I’m not mike, but do you want to hear from him? How long has it been since you heard from him?
I think this is a good time to work on you. I know how hard it is. I’m going through the same the thing.
Karen – totally agree with you, whilst we have to get angry as part of the greiving process – it really is better to let it go, staying angry just keeps us obsessing about them and the situation, indifference & feeling lucky to be out of the situation is a far better place to be.
Mike – fantastic posts, we need to hear it & deep down we know you are a right, we can only be treated how we allow ourselves to be treated and my word I know that I lived in denial for a pretty long time! I have not posted on here for a while after breaking nc over the christmas period and having to learn yet another big fat lesson the hard way yet again!! – I continue to read this site though every day &im back doing nc but this time trying to let go of the anger & obsessing about him and putting my energy into me instead, i hope all you wonderful ladies do the same.
Mike…..I agree with most of what you said. If we allow someone to treat us like crap then they’ll continue to to do it to get whatever goodies they’re getting for free. My problem is the deceitful guys. The ones that are doing things behind your back and telling you something different to your face. It’s not always so cut and dried. We don’t always know what the hell is going on. Oh we may suspect, as in being cheated on.but until you have that proof you stay confused. So life is really shades of grey, not only black and white.
Also when you’re in love with someone, no matter how slimy, they are you’re going to go through a grieving process.. Maybe the guy no longer cares but the woman doesn’t stop caring. It’s like a death, you go through the stages of grief. Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance. It’s not so easy to walk away from someone you love. Especially women that have low self esteem, poor boundries and fears of being alone. Just sayin.
flingdown8 – actions speak louder than words!! would you tell someone you loved them & then disappear on them?? that is not love & you deserve far better.
myalmost – isent suspecting you are being cheated on enough?? why should we need actual proof!!?? i do know what you saying about the deceit as these men are very clever & will tell you what you want to hear, but deep down I think we know – well I know I did – really I deceived myself!!!
@ Mike,
I struggled for years, learning to operate a chat board (DraftResource.com, for new draft horse owners). One rule I stumbled over that helped improve communication was to “talk about the horses, not the visitor (to the site).” When I started visiting here, I found I had to learn to communicate all over again. Not just because I was used to “guy talk” and that is different, but because I was learning to express what I wanted to say, in writing. Words that needed to stand alone, that needed to be meaningful past the moment.
Words that might affect someone. And I wanted to help.
You might consider a guide like I found – talk about the problem, the question, the situation, and not about the visitor.
Peace!
@ isabella,
Thanks for the kind words!
Fling,
I think you need to ask yourself, why do you want to hear from him? Does this relationship have a chance of going forward????
I thought we had something really special, yes I want to hear from him but know it would be best not to. Find it hard to believe that he would vanish like that after growing so close recently. Crushed… but trying to deal.
Mariposa, would love to chat on gmail… this is really difficult. fllingdown8@gmail.com
I’m a new poster but I have been reading this site for the last few months. I run into my EUM often because we belong to the same org. Which means wounds opens over and over, even though I have NC during the interim periods. I still have fun without thinking about him at events but when I leave, sometimes I wish he’d contact me(which sometimes happens but nothing never moves on more than that). We’ll speak(always on the run) and he’ll mention “be patient” or “I still love u”. I play cool without breaking a sweat and almost treat him like he’s nothing to me. I saw him last week end while I was DJing a party. He was called for security( Warning: EX CHI Town COP!!) and here we again. I just can’t to seem to avoid him. Anyway, Mike and any other man keep posting. The truth makes me cry but I need hear it. this site keeps it real Yes, men are crappy in Chi-Town too.
nevergoingbackthereagain……I was in the dark for many months. My only clues were some behavior changes but he lied and lied to me. When I say proof I just mean you want to be sure before you accuse someone of cheating.. In the end I found out what I needed to know and that’s what set the NC ball rolling but not after a tremendous amount of emotional pain, I loved this man with all my heart, it left a huge hole in my life because we spent so much time together.
The good news is after four months of NC I’m finallty getting over this whole thing. It still stings sometimes but it’s nothing like the struggle I went through in the beginning.. I was a WRECK. I’m concentrating on myself and my life. Trying to get my self esteem back in order. It took a major battering.
Fling,
Go back and reread all of NML’s posts on boundaries this should make things a little clearer. I would also focus on on the much appreciated male perspective, it should help with any ambiguity you may be having.
Wow, over 70 posts.
I have to agree with Mike and John – may I ask how old you both are?
It IS our responsibility to tell a man to go and hit the road.
All of NML’s post about Boundaries makes this so clear.
Her post about: Will he contact me and her answers why he may contact you, should make all of us women on this website throw up.
It all boils down to, he is not coming “back: because he now loves you and can see what he “lost”, hell no, it is what he can get out of it.
It is all about using us again for whatever this creep may need at that moment.
I am not saying these men are not responsible for their actions, but we are the ones that can tell them, no sorry, can’t do.
Please don’t take me wrong, I have done the chasing, the BS, the making excuses, the “heartaches” and NML put me on the right track and I have learned over the last year a lot and I am grateful for her, her website and the people posting here.
When I go on a date and he says ” I will call you”, I don’t think for a second” Will he call me?” If I liked him and he didn’t call, too bad, if I didn’t like him and he didn’t call me, good he saved me one step.
John, Mike, I hope you will keep on posting, join Brad, I am always glad for a male input! Brad has provided good input for a long time, so join him!
Hello all,
I find this whole new male perspective very interesting. Mike is cool. Brad, I am still out on. He walks the walk, but, does he talk the walk? Mike seems real to me. Listen to him.
Don’t we say look at how the man acts in the beginning? Mike’s first statement was “As a guy, I can’t believe women like you exist.” Which is a put down and insult to all of us here. Now y’all are praising his honesty, when he speaks up for men who use women without regard or remorse. For all we know, he and his father trained Chloe to accept user abusive men. Chloe, for your sake I hope this is not true, or that if it is you find the grace to transcend.
Also there is his use of all caps (yelling) which I would not tolerate from any man, and it has led to some of us following suit.
Boundary question: how do you tell the difference between honesty and rudeness?
Regina, I think it’s fairly safe to say that the thread has ‘progressed’ – not just here but also where Mike actually placed his original comment on the 2nd article. The caps thing? Replacement for italics I would guess otherwise I would have long ago started taking offence and banning many readers from the site…
As Mike has stated who he is and Chloe has since responded to his comments, I would avoid getting personal about him, her, or his family, regardless of what you feel your basis is for it. It’s also up to other readers to decide how they do or don’t feel about his comments – you can dislike and disregard his comments – that’s your prerogative. Others want to and need his honesty because they have spent enough time avoiding honesty and fluffing it up. If several women who read Marks comments can take a big step forward, because his comments gave them a jolt of reality from the male perspective, why hate?
Sometimes we don’t always hear what we want to hear how we want to hear it, but the message is nonetheless important.
As for the rudeness and honesty thing – Mike has not said anything that I haven’t said before. Yes he could package up nicely so that he doesn’t disturb anyone’s sensibilities, but would he have added to the discussion. I made my point about this in response to his comments in part 2. He didn’t just make one comment Regina – he made several and added to the discussion and explained himself. If he was seeking to be rude, he wouldn’t have made the subsequent comments that he did or responded directly to readers.
At the end of the day, it’s how you choose to take it and how I see his comments or other readers is not how you see it – and that is ultimately the difference between honesty and rudeness – The former is when the message comes across needed and the person wants to hear it. The latter is that you don’t want or need the message, can’t see any benefit to it and take offence.
Oh and Regina – I’m not sure what context you meant the first sentence in but yes I do say look at how a man acts in the beginning but if a man behaves like a prince for 2 weeks and a bastard for 50, why would I be telling women to look at the 2 weeks?
mariposa. I’ve been no contact for about two months, but as this was totally disfunctional relationship for at least a year and I was aware of that, but still stayed in it, I expected that I will move faster forward in my life.
metsgurl thanks, I guess you are right, but it seems to be a very slow process, getting over even if it was such a bad and unworthy experience/relationship.
Just popped on here before I trot out to work, to see how the post has trangressed. Its all very interesting stuff. I like that men tell us how it is, however, just because thats how it is to them, does not mean we have to tolerate it. Why should it be up to woman to wise up, men play there role in this too. I feel that Mike although honest, from the first post, doesnt see it as his pergotive to take the blame for how women end up feeling, ie not to fix us, thats true. However that doesnt exuce cap behaviour, men should at times grow some balls and let go of us, completley, and stop using those they know love them as options. However girls its up to us to stop being that option. Its a tough journey, NC is a tough programme but it has to be done, you just cant keep doing it to yourselves.
Isabella- Any bloke that tells you your just to confident is a way of manipulating you, down. Dont even think about dumbing down, hold your head up and keep going, he’s floundering, if he dont like it he needs to walk and keep walking. If he wont go but keeps trying to put you down, to wear you down, give him one mighty push to get him walking. Dont even watch him go, NEXT!!
Loving this site, its empowering and such a reality check and it keeps me smiling and knowing that everything I put in place for myself a couple of years ago, works, was the right thing to do. I protected myself, as Mike said its something that we must all learn and in my case keep learning and reminding myself why oh why I got to be a fighter instead of some down trodden women with another sob story to tell about how badly men treated me. Ladies keep smiling and working on yourselves, its a tough time and maybe this year is going to be a bit lonley, but its also a time of rejuvination. Promise yourselves never never is an assclown going to mess up your life, head and even in the worst cases your health, effect friendships and relationships with others, because thats what happens, it sucks the very life and soul from the whole of your life. Be strong and get to grips with boundaries and those red flags, dont assume people will behave as you do, they dont, and if its niggling you, its time to move on out. Keep strong and NC works.
I have been on this site for a few months now, I take time every day to read posts, gain strength from some and scratch my head at others and sometimes even feel awkward posting on here. I was supported and helped through an epiphany break up back in December and am very appreciative to Natalie and all those that lended an ear and gave support to me and help the women on here get through trying times, without being judged. We are all here for a common reason which leads me to think the following.
I am surprised at some of the rebuttals about Mike being posted. Isn’t his honesty something we all wish we had from the assclowns we’ve all encountered and are trying to get over? Don’t we all wish we had recognized early on that a guy who is only texting us is only doing it because he wants a booty call and nothing more? Isn’t this site and the book about realizing and learning that if a guy wants to move on, has been a jerk, treats us badly and we put up with it, that it’s our responsibility to step back and punt and take ownership of what we do with that information? Recognizing the signals early on that this is someone we don’t need to be with, “abort mission”, that it’s time to let go and not take it personally and move on with Our life?
I know this is a hard thing to do, especially if you (like myself) had no boundaries or the tools to deal with these type of relationships. For me personally, I look at Mike’s comments as another tool in the toolbox. I think that his comment about “not believing that women like us exist” was an opening line and followed up by the fact that he does realize we exist because his sister exists.
Sometimes we just don’t want to hear the truth because the truth hurts or quite frankly, we just don’t want to hear it which has gotten us in trouble time and time again. Many times through words and actions, men have told us what the deal is and we have refused to listen Or we just didn’t know what those words and actions really meant.
For example, I just don’t understand the getting involved in the Married Man thing, the guy is married where does anyone really think it can go, no matter what he says, once a cheat always a cheat. This is not something I have any experience in because I just wouldn’t do it, I wouldn’t want to be treated that way so why would I do it to another woman? The fact is that for whatever reason there are women on here that do get involved with a Married Man but I have never judged them and realize that they are in as much pain as I have been trying to get out of the relationship. Mike is baring all and telling us, leave it alone, it’s a no win situation and here are some circumstances, again from the male pov that either we can hoose to accept or ignore and if we accept it, be prepared to deal with it.
Anyone on here, as Natalie mentioned, can use this information, believe or not believe, agree or disagree with what is being said.
Sometimes I don’t agree with all of Brad’s comments for instance but it’s his pov from a man’s perspective and food for thought.
My point is you don’t have to agree with everything that is written, kind of like saying NO. I don’t think Mike called any One person out in his initial comment and it definitely wasn’t directed to anyone personally, it was his pov from his own experiences and a definition of the actions displayed by assclowns that we can Choose to either accept or ignore. For one, I appreciate the male pov from Brad, JohnT and now Mike. I wish all men, if they are just assclowns, we get involved with would be so direct and honest in the beginning by wearing a sign that “I am an assclown, beware”, that just doesn’t happen and hopefully, in time, we get better at spotting them.
Obviously it struck a cord in many of us because it’s been an interesting thread ever since….Gail
Hi everyone. Just wanted to make a point that the use of CAPS in my posts is just for emphasis. Nothing more.
And to Regina Toxic… your comment regarding Chloe, me and my father was out of line.
To Brad K
While I appreciate your post regarding where I should go as far as how to write on this site, based on the responses to my posts, I’m hoping I have opened a few more eyes yesterday than were open the day before.
If you don’t mind, I will continue writing in my style and you can continue writing in yours.
Thank you !!
I have a question. Can a friend be an EUM as well? NML talks about having to have boundries in every area but I have this friend who I am always there for thick and thin. He needs a ride to the airport– im there! He needs me to run an errand for him— sure no problem. However every once in awhile when I need something– Im having trouble distinguishing between what is an excuse or if he is just taking advantage of my friendship. I dont always say yes and while i know that he doesnt have a car, doesnt have much $$$ etc…etc… I just feel like I can’t count on him as much as he can count on me but he tells me (which is true) you know i dont have a car…. I cant help you with that. Or — you know I dont have $$$ — if i did— I would do that for you. Anyway– since I am serious about defining my boundries in all aspect of my life— im just wondering… how do i know the difference between when something is a legititamite reason and when it is just an excuse??? What does this sound like to you guys?
Karen,
It sounds like another one-sided relationship. Relationships of all kinds should be give-and-take, if one is always taking then they are abusing the relationship. I had to do a little ‘house cleaning’ recently as I realized a few friends were always taking from the relationship, enough was enough as I was tired of being disappointed by their behavior. I recognized-through this site- that one of my male platonic friends was an EUM, it was always about him and his drama with his job, with his ex, etc……….. I finally just cut him off completely. If we are continually not feeling good about a relationship you must realize they are not healthy and move on.
We need boundaries in every area of our life!!!!!
Hey Gaynor-Boundaries are essential in all our relationships. I had to say No to a friend yesterday, because she needed something sorting out with a mutual friend, who in fact had acted outragously on Wed night. However the problem was not mine and not my issue, she asked if I could talk to her, I said no, as she was the one who needed to say no to her, and not be afraid to assert her boundary. Its tough, but we have to learn to stop fixing, Ive found at times this friend has also taken advantage of my good nature one or two times in the past. So I said No, I like her friendship we have a goodtime but I cant fix her problems.
Hi Rules,
Good for you!!!
We have to sort out the good from the bad in every area of our life.
Hi. I have a question. I
have read about NC and I am “doing it” right now and yes, I am feeling better because of it. What I want to know is – why is it that Silence is the only way to get your point across?
Are we not all humans and were given the “gift” of speech? Is communication “wrong”? Why is it so much of a struggle to simply get your point across? Why does it take NC to do that? My ex is not a stupid person. Why do I have to act like he has dropped off the face of the earth for him to leave me alone? Is it my fault for letting him come back in earlier times and this is all I have left?
And speaking of boundaries, he is still not respecting mine and continues to try to engage me after he broke up with me and I told him to “stay away from me”.
Like someone earlier said – a break up is supposed to be painful – and I am trying to get over it by asking for some space and peace. This is very confusing.
Annied,
You can always threaten him with actions from the authorities, that should get him off your back. He is probably contacting you b/c in the past you gave in and responded, show him you mean business this time and remain NC!!!!
For these guys “speech” is wrong, as it goes in one ear and out the other. Remember, we are dealing with a different breed here. They don’t care!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks guys! I’ve realized that I have to assert myself more in all aspects of my life. Boundries are important and unfortunately when you start being a little more assertive you are labeled as a B**tch. Oh well… Im tired of being taken advantage of in intimate relationships as well as with platonic one’s. In the end I have to take responsibility for the behaviour that I allow right? Ok then– taking responsibility and not being afraid to say no or be more assertive!!!
Thanks again!!
Karen,
You’re not being a bitch for standing up for yourself. Think about all the people you know who enforce their boundaries, do you believe them to be bitches or bastards, or do respect them? This is how you will be seen. I believe we are loved and respected more for standing up for ourselves and for what we believe in.
Stay Strong!!!!!!!
Gaynor, yea … he works with me too.
This morning I was talking to a male friend of mine about some dude who is interested in me (and I’m not sure about). As soon as my friend left, my ex – all puffed up like he’s ready to battle – comes up to my desk and says ‘…. i know you were talking to ** about me earlier. voices carry, you know.” I said, “I wasnt talking about you! Why would I want to?” and he stalked off. grrr. I was so angry.
Then later on today, he was at his desk slamming stuff around, acting all ticked. Well, luckily he has left for the day but what do you think? He figured out I was talking about ANOTHER dude and it made him mad? Wth?
Like I said, this is all so very confusing. He made it perfectly clear this last b-up (16 days ago) that he didnt want to do this anymore. Said we both needed to “take the burdens off” and move on with our lives. Well, awesome. That is what I am trying to do.
I’m beginning to think he is a little nuts.
Annie D – I have a question for you – Bearing in mind everything else that has happened before (I have read extensively of your relationship in the comments), what would you do as an alternative to this to ‘get your point across’? I ask this because the posing of this question sounds like you don’t understand why you’re doing NC in the first place or don’t believe in it? Do you actually want this to end or do you want this to create a reaction from him to try to get him to come around to your way of thinking? Basically, are you doing NC because you have actually had enough and the relationship is over? Or are you doing NC in the hope that he will change and you get what you want?
fllingdown8,
I tried sending you a msg. but it came back undeliverable. I hope you’re doing better today. Just hang in there.
Annied,
How horrible!!! Have you considered looking for another job?? Perhaps you should take this to a superior if he doesn’t back off?
Don’t interpret his anger with caring, he has had numerous opportunities to take you into his life and hasn’t. They don’t want us in their lives but then then they don’t want anyone one else to have us either. This is not love but simple control and manipulation.
Ugh!!! This is what I hate and don’t understand. I was just “assertive” with my friend (cause he asked me for a favor) and I said you know I value your friendship but unfortunately I feel that when you need a favor or something from me I am there for you but I don’t feel you are there quite as much as when I need something from you. And his answer was: Ok then I wont ask you for anything anymore (in a snottish tone). Not for anything but if this was really my friend I would have expected a better response no?
Karen,
No, he isn’t in my opinion. Sounds like a user.
If someone came to me with the same concern I would have apologized and promised to make any necessary effort to correct the behavior. I have gone to friends in the past and expressed concern with different issues, they listened, apologized and then changed their behavior. I have also done the same when the situation was in the reverse.
Annied,
I think that when a EUM is trying to get in your business. He does not want you to move on to someone else who is totally interested in because he wants you to be available for him when it is convenient.
Hey ladies. Im at RulesGirl2theEnds for the whole weekend, and Im alone. My daughter is at her fathers, so shewill comehome stroppy. Anyway thats Mon eve. Johnt flown out too the state so we are her alne. Got cake and wine. Im ok its been a tough few weeks. I saw my ex last wed we had a quick chat. He was ok and he told me a lie, and today I heard he was out last Sat night in our local nightclub and he had been drinking. That for me is a real kick in the teeth as Ive supported him,and he told me he wanted to be clean. But you know, so what, Im done let him fuck the world for all I care. Im tired, mentally exhausted and Ive been comfort eating for 3 weeks solid!!! But you know what Im listening to my friend, I know I hve a few issues that I have to deal with. He dont love me, he cant, I dont take it personally, he can be someonelses party now. Great post by the guys I must say. Although stomach wrenching!!!
Thanks Gaynor
Thats what I was thinking. I hate to do this because I have known him for a very long time but I do feel that this is a one-sided situation and I do believe that if he or any other one of my friend’s said that to me I would have also apologized and changed my behavior. His response (I thought) was like as if he didn’t really care about how I was feeling and like he didnt want to do anything about it– and almost like a guilt trip… “Ok I wont ask you for anything anymore…sorry”. I guess discussing this any further with him is irrelevant? Like I said– I have known him for a long time…
LOL- KatyB has had a bottle of wine!!! She is pretty upset. However, because I have had so MUCH experience with an addict, I hope Ive explained to her that, although he may want to, he cant love her, he cant do it. Its not personal, its an addiction that he alone has to fight. He knows where to get the help, I feel he is absolutley going to spiral now!! I mean really go for it, he’s alone, addicts cant stand it!!! Hes already txt an ex girlfriend in the hope of getting a bit of sympathy, she’s my mate, she aint even answered. Katby B needs to be angry and noteven go to help him. I’ve told her, she has to let him go, he has to find his own way home now. Me as an addict, and a victim of such a relationship has learnt that we have to let go, with compassion she cant do it. However I can. Im now going to quote the Serenity prayer from AA, it applies to us all.
God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
Taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it;
Trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will;
That I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with Him
Forever in the next.
Amen.
–Reinhold Niebuhr
ABF I wish you well, I hope you find your path, I send this with love and understanding and wish you saftey, and when you come home we will be here to welcome you, because we will know that you come to make your amendment, at it comes from the heart, and we will once again trust and love you.
Rules, how did you get to be so compassionate and still be a hard arse??
Because you can be both, however what Ive learnt is that its not our job to fix, its our job to let go, for most importantly our own sakes and then theirs. Whatever the reason maybe. If its not going to work it aint going to work, dont sacrifice yourself putting off the the inevitable.
Karen,
Don’t let time be a factor when evaluating his behavior. I just let a friend of 10 years go, it always seemed liked it was an 80/20 thing. Why stick around for that. I don’t take it personally because he marginalizes everyone in his life. I wish him well.
NML – No, I’m finished this time … really. It felt different – this last break-up, on my part. This time felt final for me. The other times I almost looked at them as a bump and that surely we would end up together. Not so this time. I am actually really comfortable with the NC this time. I feel strong and good about keeping my “door” closed and locked.
The question I have about NC is more like a rhetorical question … Why, as humans, does it take silence? Why cant we just say, okay, it’s over and move along? Is it because of the “type” of relationship I was in? One that was clearly not right? One with a EUM?
I dont know. Maybe that’s it. I have broken up with guys before and they me and it just has never felt like such a huge deal to stay away and be quiet. Maybe I knew better then and just did it and now i have to “make” myself?
This mess is partly my fault, I know. Like that Mike guy said, if I had just taken my ex’s words in from the very start, this would have never happened at all. Hope that explains a little
Annied, I am really finished this time too. My NC really feels like a closed the door for good. All those bumps taught me along the way. I think it takes silence because when we do communicate with them it opens the door again for them to put their foot in it. It is really about them getting their needs met. Maybe we can’t over this one so easy because we are eternal optimists and have good hearts? Sometimes it is just where we are in our life and how we feel about ourselves. Btw: My internet date from the other day folded on me today and has been doing the fade. I kept my boundry/he’s flaking…and I succeeded in keeping my dignity and not getting invested by trusting my gut.
NC is hard, because there are always alot of unanswered questions. However, my true belief is that if your with a healthy man he will come and TALK to you, if not just a txt usually does it!! Keep it up. Get that man outta your hair, its your time now.
I wish my man would talk to me.?
Babe he aint healthy, he cant love you, he has only one true love, Its called cocaine, if not that booze, if not that sex. You honey, represent everything he is running from, normal life, living in his own skin, love, He just cant do it. Let him go. Eat the cake and drink wine and watch friends.
I 100% promise you ladies, when you are truly outta the woods and busy on your merry way, a guy will come and ask YOU out. Then you must have your dating skills up to scratch ie BOUNDARIES UP RED FLAG ALERT ON: sit back and enjoy the ride knowing you can choose whether your in or oh so out. You will know when your healthy because thes clowns will be like water of a ducks back. Oh some will get under the intial radar, dont take it seriosly, and just shoot em off one by one.
Gaynor and Tra – Yep – you are right. He doesnt care about me. I thought for a long time that he did and that was why he kept coming back – I mean, that is what he told me and I believed him. From what he said in this last b.up, I see that I was wrong, very wrong. The statement that cemented things for me was “this has never been right and it never will”. Okay, then. That says it all.
He cares about himself – only. He is very selfish and it would not surprise me in the least if he felt he was “betrayed” because I have actually moved on. Pfft!
Nysharon – cool. You know how I feel then. I swear this feels really different for me. At first, it also made me sad that it was totally over forever. Now I see myself coming “back” to who I used to be and wonder why I stayed with him when he brought nothing positive into my life at all. He was a well of needs and wants that I catered to.
ANYway, I also had a brush with an internet dude that I thought looked promising. Well, this time I am going with my gut … something about this guy bothers me. Whether it’s his online harum (on facebook) or his provocative photos of himself OR the fact that he admitted he has an STD … eh, no thanks! 🙂
Annie, good call on the new guy. Admitting he has had an std is more than a red flag – – run like the wind :)!!
Here we are bleating on about these men!!! but as Rules says its us with options!!! lets play!
I like that promise aRules~ I’m sure the guys on this post can vouch for what you say because I hear that dudes love healthy, happy women! That’s a good thing ladies, we’re well on our way….correct?
Karen-I read your post about the person you are friends with. I too have been in this circumstance, and yes I had to end a 23 yr friendship just a few months ago with a gf. Yep, I figured she was an EUW after I started hitting this site, etc. For 23 yrs I was there for her. A last minute call she was in trouble, I was there. Her hubby (whom I do not like) had a heart attack, yep there in a moments notice. But when I had problems, asked a favor, needed someone to talk to she was always “busy”. Then we would meet up now and then and it was just weird like she was hiding stuff or something. Come to realize she was an alcoholic. She was hiding stuff alright, it was the bottle of booze. So she goes through treatment and who was there for her, yep you guessed it. Then she starts drinking again, about 12 months ago and I finally told myself, I’ve had enough of her drama. But up until 2-3 months ago, I didn’t associate her drama to EUW, I just thought it to be drama. So I had to pull the plug and finally cut the cord with her. I wish it could have been different, she just wasn’t going to change.
So in any case, boundaries apply to all of our lives. They apply to friends, family, co-workers, bosses, neighbors, whomever we interact with. It’s a domino effect, when you set your boundaries, you make better choices, you find more reputable people/friends to hang out with. It takes a while for all this to happen but it will, and soon all those drama seekers are gone, out of your life.
Looking back just a short time ago, I had no idea that I would ever feel good about losing a friendship, a relationship, and setting limits with family members. I felt obligated to always be kind, only say “no” if it was absolutely necessary and to do for them before I took care of myself.
Karen, as I read your posts you are getting stronger and stronger along with many others here; like Annied and Chloe. We were searching, looking not really knowing what we would find. We just needed to know, I think, that there was someone else out there who was feeling, living and suffering like we were. It was a relief for me to finally realize what was wrong with my past relationships, and even better that NML teaches us the way to make it better through her writing.
Many thanks!
Thanks Betterwithouthim
I couldn’t have come this far without you guys or NML’s help!!!
🙂
I forgot one boundry in this equation…..to tell my friends not to talk to me about what ‘he’ is doing. Now the ex has called a mutual friend (and one he has been jealous of, I think – or was that a ploy to keep detached from me?) and ask him to pass a message on to me. I have been NC for the past 2.5 months, ex has tried to contact a few times.
This mutual friend, who has been trying to council me to get away from the ex for the past 6 mos, tells the ex he does not want to be involved but will pass the message (wish he hadn’t).
Message: “I think she thinks I do not want to go out with her anynore but I was sick that night and wanted to go home. My intention was not to break it off”
But, I recall that I broke it off that night – the ex has always been a revisionist. Or perhaps my message was not strong enough…..
So, I ask my friend “what was his tone….his tone” – “lost puppy”
And what was his purpose of the message – “he’s in limbo”
Well, we all know the reality of our relationships – this is his ego. He’s in no limbo…..please. He’s undoubtedly seeing someone else..
And I hated all the angst, crap and bad behavior I put up with – so why would I contact him?
I spent all day today obsessing about calling him and meeting for the ‘conclusion’ or understanding the ‘misunderstanding’ or “setting him straight” on who broke up with who. I hate this! I hate needing to write this and post this. I’m sick of it, dead sick of it. Turn off these tapes in my head!!
I had my little speach all planned out to tell him….and then I called a friend who asked me if I was effing nuts!! Of course I am. I don’t understand this – how can I be so bloody obsessive with this. I disappoint myself but still want to indulge that little niggly stuff that is ego. Set him straight but then he gets to call the shots because I react. And he will walk away with what I am calling ‘power’….even though it is not. My NC means that he knows absolutely nothing about my life except that I am having my little Super Bowl party tomorrow. He decided to have one as well. We are overlapping people coming to our individual parties but I got my invitation out first. See? Pathetic. No wonder I am in therapy. Obsessive behavior.
I am sorry for the rant. I cannot tell you how close to the edge I am to react but know it is so wrong.
juju-Dont worry, we all do stuff like this. I today did something that was awful. I went to the “shop” and drove past my ex’s house just to see if he was in. Of course I could’nt tell. His bedroom curtains where open, at 10 am, so in my mind he didnt go home last night, or even worse he was still in bed with another girl and as he did with me open the curtains and make me a tea and get back into bed with me! How obsessive is that. Its hell. No he aint in contact with me, And people keep telling me that they’ve seen in our local night club every SAT since we broke up. Its murder. I honestly know where your coming from. The thing that makes me mad is that I should’nt give a damn really, he’s led me on a merry dance for nearly 2 years of my life, and the worst, the worst part of it is that I let him. BLEH!
Katyb
I know those feelings well. In fact yesterday while shopping I was in his neighborhhod and I had this brief thought of driving past his building. I just laughed and went in the ‘right’ direction.
It is so painful and I just want to sit and talk to him. But it won’t change anything, he won’t change and we (or I) have come too far to go back at this stage.
I hate this
And, those Sat/Sun mornings when I wake up alone and think of him waking (probably) with someone else just kills me. But the bad bits of the relationship outweighed the good bits. And he seems to have a selective memory of how he treated me or how he acted for the months up to the breakup. He thinks I wrongly think we are over. But if he just took the time to look at his actions.
I guess this all takes time
Katy,
More importantly, keep reminding yourself this guy is an addict! No win situation!!!
I still have those feelings too…and I have him on instant messenger and then take him off and put him on and take him off…driving myself crazy…because as Katyb says, I start imagining when he’s not on he’s with someone else, because of his pattern with me…I don’t know for sure, but I think he’s with someone else…why shouldn’t he be…I broke up with him…but then again, he came sniffing around under the guise of friendship over the holiday time and I talked with him for a few weeks and then I cut it off again. I have to move on and some days it’s easier than others…I realize full on how he didn’t have both feet in…in the beginning he did and the first year he had put in alot more effort, then when I had expectations, he’d pull away and we did that dance for close to two more years…I think it was the chemistry and how I felt when I was with him that kept me in there…but I realize that if I never feel that chemistry with anyone again, it’s ok…better to be with no one than to lower my standards, let him control everything. It’s been 2 weeks with NC before the last NC of 3 months…and it still hurts a lot at times.
It was good to read the insight of Mike and John and Brad to get a perspective…I do understand that when a guy isn’t that into you he will not have both feet in the relationship…what I just don’t get is why when I broke up with him and he knows full on that he is hurting me because I’ve told him – if he contacts me, why does he still do it…that is inexcusable and that to me is not a man. A man should leave a girl alone when she breaks up with him and isn’t contacting him, especially when HE KNOWS she is IN LOVE with him…what do you guys think about that? I think it is cruel!
Finally,
It’s about him only!!!! They are focused on their needs, not yours. Look at how this guy has treated you and numerous women over the years. Does it sound like he cared about anyone??? Go back and reread your post about his behavior. If this were a friend or sister, how would you advise them??
You know the answer to this question.
Ladies, find a way to stop the obsessing. What has got me through this time is just plain will power that I am not going to give in to those impules to drive by his house or respond to a text. Picture a better man in your life and truly believe it will come your way. Better–picture a better life with no drama, peace, and contentment whether a man is in your life or not–knowing one will find YOU then.
hi.. i have a question. i just read all the posts and they’re really good! i have a male aqquaintance who i have gone home with after a night out… and all the rest… 4 times now. i have a boyfriend and i hate doing this to him but i think i have feelings for the friend. just wondering would anyone have an insight into what the friend might be doing, is he just playing with me? we havent actually slept together but we’ve slept in the same bed…. mike you’ll probably tell me im being an idiot and he’s using me 😛 i guess i can kinda see that myself..:(
Hi Everyone. Due to a technical fault with the previous service which notifies you by email when I publish a new post, I have had to move to a new provider. The error means you will now need to sign up to the Feedblitz service if you want to start receiving emails again. Apologies for any inconvenience caused. Thanks Natalie/NML
Wow, love this site just came across it tonight when I couldn’t sleep because I was curious about reading up on emotionally unavailable men and was cracking up when I read: how to attract an emotionally unavailable man!! I totally agree, it’s not so much that we have a problem for getting them to say hi to us, it’s actually giving them the boot when we see that they are unfit to date!
I also loved these boundary posts as well — just up until this past year or so (27 now) I learned what boundaries were and then realized how important they are in relationships (No wonder why I was having a hard time he-he)…
I really thought your articles were extremely insightful and thought-out.
In regards to the boundary post: Yes, it’s so important to have your core value deal breakers that stand close to your heart because they are there to love, respect and protect us! Once we learn how to love ourselves we are proud to stand up for what we beleive and not back down — why would we want to??
finallyseenthelight—
I was in a similar situation to where I would put my ex-EUM on and off my instant messager. Until I came across this site, I didn’t see the clear truth that the only reason why this man would contact me was for a “ego stroke”. I was like a giddy fool when he would instant message me, I would act like I was just being “Friendly” but the only person I was being emotionally unavailable with was MYSELF… the only person I was fooling was myself. This man treated and threw me crumbs and I want to talk to him?? Why oh why… LOL… When you really see him or the cycle for what it is and want to get real, you won’t ever want to even give them the time of day… it takes a little while to get there.
“There’s no point in him sharing the same interests as you (for eg skiing, drinking fine wine, great for debating politics with etc), if the guy is a frickin assclown that won’t commit, won’t grow up, isn’t sure what he wants with you, screws around on you, calls you names, and repeatedly disrespects you and the relationship.”
Thank you for this. I had thought one was worth trading for the other. It is not.
Wow. Hmmmm, for some reason I’ve been avoiding reading the “Boundaries” posts – thought I probably didn’t need them, but as usual, after reading them, I’m stunned, a little embarassed, yet empowered.
I think that most of why and how I got involved with my XEUM is explained in these posts. And also, what I’m going through as he disappears again (I’ve promised myself this is the last time and am grieving it as though it is) is feeling unbelievably hurt and disappointed and disgusted with how he’s just dropped off the face of the Earth – as if I mean absolutely nothing to him. I just can’t comprehend how he could do this to me, and yet, I have allowed it before – I’ve allowed him to come back!
I WAS just out of an 8-year relationship (6 days) when I met him and had no business, and no intention really, of getting involved with anyone – but he pursued me. I guess I assumed that he was something like my ex. Assumed. I see so many assumptions that I’ve clinged to for the two years I’ve been “involved” with this EUM. Boy, this has been a painful eye-opener. I really need time to get to know myself and my desires and expectations.
Thanks so much for this post NML.
I’m also disgusted with myself that I’ve just been putting myself in people’s hands all my life – just saying basically, “Here you go…please treat me well” and hoping for the best. What? Never again!
I love this website because it teaches you how to be and act strong, and be stronger for yourself as a woman. Women were created to be loving, caring, gentle, and protective of their friends and families. Its does us no good to put ourselves in a position where were are abused, taken advantange of and left with no answers and no reasons as to why this happened to us. But this website really puts in all in perpective for us!
I always get attracted to the bad guy. i have always dated a bad guy and when i was chewed up and spit out i went for a good guy… not to mention way more attractive than any guy i ever dated! But i found myself bored and almost as though i had everything at the palm of my hands. You know when I say jump you say how high?? That was our relationship. Of course he had his boundaries and when i crossed them he left but was back again thinking I would change and fall madly in love with him. It was actually awful because I was begining to feel like i was lying to myself everyday; i felt like i didnt love him but i needed him to love me and when he left i would begin to think i did love him but when he came back i didnt. It was terrible! His family could see me for what i was worth, I knew i was doing this because of my insecurities and felt he was way too attractive to let go or some other beautiful girl would steal him from me and then I would for sure miss him and want him to be mine again. I was 18 at the time. When it ended this was when i knew I needed to do A LOT of changing for myself because it didnt matter how great the new guy was i still did not know how to appreciate him and the whole jumping into a new relationship with a “better” guy does not work unless you change the things about you that you need to work on.
So it’s true boundaries are very very essential. You can tell alot about someone when you give them the NO word and see how they react to it. If they respect you and themselves you will see it through their character and can feel confiden that you two are heading in a healthy direction that doesnt have to do with POWER or CONTROL.