Many many moons ago, my seventeen-year-old self had a guy that she thought was a friend do a very bad thing to her. I wondered if it was because my friend and I had affectionately or so I’d thought, made a joke about him, and for the next year, I slid into pain and further loss of self. Then one night as we were, as we call it back home in Dublin, ‘knacker drinking’ (when teens go drinking on the beach, in the woods etc), it all came out that this person had done this to the bulk of the group–there were almost twenty of us–and my blame turned to fury and I gradually started to reclaim a little of myself although it impacted me for several years. And I made damn sure that others knew about it so that he could no longer benefit from the silence that had prevailed.
Put aside my own experience and think of abuse in general, and you can see how self-blame which leads to a code of silence stemming from shame, can keep a person in a bad situation long past its sell-by-date while also letting the perpetrator have free reign to keep up this persona.
One of the things that baffles people who experience mistreatment is the fact that this person is “liked by everyone”, but all that these people know is the persona plus ‘everyone’ doesn’t actually like this person. Once you stop making their behaviour about you and you stop thinking that you were specially selected for their dark side as if you must have provoked it, you will find others who know about them too.
In today’s Advice Wednesday, Michelle wants to know whether she should let other “newbies” know about the predator in their midst so that they don’t have to go through what she and others have. Now that she knows that she’s not alone, she wants to share her experiences but she fears coming across as a “gossip”.
Wrong behaviour is wrong behaviour even if that person is liked by ‘everyone’ (they’re not, no one is). Don’t judge a person on their reputation; judge your situation including their actions and pattern. Judging crappy treatment you’re getting on the superficial knowledge others have or the assumptions you might be making based on their status, is the fastest way of ensuring that you delay doing right by you while sheltering this person from the consequences of their actions.
And particularly for women, we must stop treating romantic partners, male or female, as if they’re the centre of the universe and ‘competing’ with other women as if there’s a shallow pool and there’s not enough of anything–jobs, money, friends, relationships, luck etc–to go round. We need to have our backs but also, when we do, we will not inadvertently collude with people who don’t have good intentions towards women and who are in fact opportunistic and using charm to divide and conquer.
Have you been part of a ‘harem’? Have you blamed yourself for someone’s predatory behaviour? What would you do in this situation?
Each Wednesday, I help a reader to solve a dilemma. To submit a question, please email advicewednesdayAT baggagereclaim.com. If you would prefer your question to be featured on the podcast, drop a line to podcast AT baggagereclaim.com. Keep questions below 200 words. For in-depth support, book at a clarity session or coaching.
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Thanks Nat. You have yet another thing in your past that makes you similar not just to me but to MANY women. And to think that we blame ourselves. You’ve reminded me to be kind to my own 16 yr old self. Thank you.
It’s not gossip if you are discussing with other potential victims your own true experiences with a rat.
I watched in horror as my narcissist, with whom I was still deeply involved, flirted with some gay woman out of Florida…on Pinterest, of all places.
After a week of watching my narc canoodle with this unsuspecting, love struck woman, I made a snarky comment on one of the cozy little pins they were flirting under. The narc freaked out and had her online cadre of acolytes block me while she did damage control.
Before long, it was apparent that the Florida woman had split from her partner of 25+ years, so I figured my ex had her lined up as her next victim.
I equate emotional abuse as a more painful type of abuse than physical, so yes, I warned the hell out of that woman. I have no idea what happened after that because of NC, but if I had it to do all over again I’d still do it.
When online predators who are male get caught stalking or perpetrating serial seductions based on bullshit, they get punished, but women, especially GLBT women, get away with some really scummy behavior.
Emotional abuse should be rated at the same level of abuse as physical. I’d rather my ex would have taken a fist to my face rather than sucking all my joy out and then abandoning me on the roadside like a butt-sprung, pee-stained couch.
I haven’t spread the story all over just for grins, but I wish someone she abused before me would have warned me. Sure, I probably would have gone for it anyway but I would have been more alert for red flags and caught her narcissism lots faster.
I feel the same way you do. I was married for 9 years (in the relationship for 11) to a man I was totally in love with and never thought to doubt him. Come to find out our whole marriage was a lie with him having multiple affairs and swinging. I was clueless. As it all started to unravel, I found out many people knew of his actions but didn’t want to get involved. I get that but I would have taken what they told me, stored it away and been able to see the deceit sooner with little things I questioned and he made me believe his lies.
Natalie,
This was good on so many levels. First, we do, as women, tend to compete for these assholes out of a misplaced belief that this popular and desired male person (or female, as Karen pointed out) will advance us, enhance us, or somehow lend us their power and charisma. I am glad you pointed out that it is not gossip to tell the truth but quite the opposite: an actual moral responsibility. My ex N is actually sexually dangerous STD-wise and is certainly emotionally devastating. Two of his exes did warn me and I am glad they did. Though I didn’t listen at first I later took the advice of one of them and read “The Psychopath Next Door” which changed my life and began to free me of not only him but of my N father as well.
Secondly, I love what you said at the end. Telling Michelle to check in with herself about how she is fooled by persona and mistakes persona for character really struck me because that is exactly what I am learning right now about my father-based blind spot. I was taught to disregard — no, that’s not a strong enough word — to bury, shut-up, make wrong my inner alarm bells. My mother and our family system pounded into me that no, I was not perceiving cruelty and selfishness, blindness and neglect. He was not beating me and my sibs. He was the charming, handsome man with the big laugh and good looks that all the women in the neighborhood had a crush on. I turned myself into a pretzel denying my physical and emotional bruises.
Which brings me to point three: the harem. I am currently struggling with yet another one of these sexual predators. Only this time I am observing myself struggle not to go for the attraction. I’ve done a slick-trick that I am only seeing today: I talked myself into believing I would be fine as “one of many” because I don’t really want a monogamous relationship anyway. If I am fine with it why do I feel so dirty and slimed? If I am fine with it why does my stomach clench? Why all the rationalizations, the secret seed of shame THAT I AM WATERING MYSELF!!!
It is because I was taught to be pretzel, to deny my own body and soul signals. It is because I am still slowly coming to believe there might be a non N out there. It is because this is my path to learn right now. Thank God, for you, Nat. You help me so much.
Laura,
I can related. Dated a sociopathic liar/predator. I feel like I have been emotionally raped. The only thing I could do is publicly expose him. It gave me back some of my power with the hope it may help others.
I still feel slimy from him. I cannot look at men without thinking about deceit. I hope someday I will have my faith back alongside with the wisdom and introspection I have gained from this horrible experience
Loved your post, Laura. I have lived point three, swearing I am OK with being a harem member, for ALL the same reasons you wrote, with ALL the angst you wrote, too. My stomach would twist & turn &..uh..evacuate 30 minutes before every visit with the AC. Every Time. For THREE years. I willingly lied to myself, denied my own real wants and needs, ignored my body’s flare signals..not realizing, until this blog, that I learned early on to deny myself, and those lessons need to be unlearned and superseded by new, self-supporting self-enhancing self-loving behaviors. Namely – BOUNDARIES.
And just today I was thinking that men that toy with women’s hearts and bodies and lives have learned to manipulate women’s competitiveness for their own gain. That manipulation will not work on a woman who has her own back – it can’t, because the woman who has her own back will always walk away from a bad deal.
I found out that one harem members was actually leaving when I was arriving….we passed each other on the road. I always wondered why he would take a shower before we slept together…now I know it’s because he had just slept with someone else. And I still kept seeing him…..I certainly didn’t have my own back.
Elgie,
Hurray! This is awesome what you said.
“And just today I was thinking that men that toy with women’s hearts and bodies and lives have learned to manipulate women’s competitiveness for their own gain. That manipulation will not work on a woman who has her own back – it can’t, because the woman who has her own back will always walk away from a bad deal.”
🙂
Wendy
In the end I was completely ostracized from my ENTIRE SOCIAL CIRCLE because of this rape. On top of the rape, suddenly having my entire social life fizzle before my eyes was deeply traumatic.
But in the end it was the best thing that could have happened (that all these people abandoned me) even though I didn’t realize it. Those people were incredibly toxic and I regret having ever gotten involved with that crowd. But you know, when you’re a young girl in Los Angeles, getting involved with a C-list celebrity crowd is hard to resist. Sadly I learned the hard way.
Actually, wow, you know what? This is profound. I am going to file the charge. Statue of limitations is 10 yrs for my state. And I still suffer from the psychological repercussions, even today.
Well actually I am going to discuss this with my lawyer when I meet him on Friday.
Yes, I have been part of the harem for sure. Also I had dated a pathological liar/predator. I had this incredibly strong urge to expose him, let his girlfriend see, whom he lied about and to do something that might help other women see who he is that me night to prey on. I never regretted my decision.
Also I have had a long time friend turn on me because I revealed to her that her boyfriend was on a dating website sending me proposals for hook ups. I never met him in person, singe didn’t know who I was. She got angry with me because I told her boyfriend off. It’s interesting to see some women choose to end friendships with other women because they want to live in like warm denial about their men. Women should stick together!
Anna
Women don’t stick together. When attractive men are scarce, such as in our mountain towns here, it’s every woman for herself. Narcboy’s latest conquest used to be my friend; she’d actually called me “her hero” at one time. She knew Narcboy’s rep, having worked for the same institution, she knew someone local had really broken my heart, she knew that when we (Narcboy, she, myself) served on a committee together, the tension was rampant. She, whose marriage wasn’t even over, with troubled kids, wanted rescue and went for him whole hog and treated me as persona non grata from then out. Good for her, she’s married to a serial cheater, living in a ski town with her part time where the opportunities for cheating just multiplied ten-fold. She follows him around like a lost puppy, constantly showing up here at random times. Karma.
Noquay,
Sounds pretty effed up.
Yes, in my experience sometimes women don’t stick together. I found out that the narc’s ex was in fact his current gf. I contacted to let her know that we have been “played”. She lashed out on me calling me sick and crazy, blaming me. (funny that’s what the narc called his exes). Some people don’t want to see the truth.
I have had women warn me and I never lashed out on them.
I have also warned another woman in the past and we ended up becoming friends.
So, there is a wide range.
I always think a woman who gets upset at the other woman and not hold the lying/cheating man accountable needs help. She is in real trouble.
We need to teach our daughters to have alliance with other women. We learn to love ourselves when we don’t compete with other women.
You make many valid points Anna.
What I’d like to see is, somehow, teaching young women to validate themselves…before they leave high school age. So many of the difficulties in forming healthy relationships as an adult woman is rooted in seeking validation from outside sources – namely, romantic partners.
When I see young girls dressing in sexually suggestive attire, I know that attire is all about seeking validation. For whatever reason, they are not being validated by parents and siblings, and the easy route to validation is sexual suggestiveness.
So, while I do not agree that we women should be of one mind and support another woman simply because she is a woman, I do think we need to give more validation to teenage girls. I once saw a teenager in the aisle of beauty products at a store, and I asked her “What in the world are you looking for, because you are beautiful.”
But I do not believe it is MY job as a woman to make sure YOUR man is not able to cheat. That is what I think most women are asking for when they say “we women should stick together”.
I dated a guy I worked with for almost 3 years. The relationship should have ended within the first month so it was an excrusiating 3 years to say the least. He was emotionally and verbally abusive. Even yelling out at work that I was a whore because another co-worker came over and talked to me. I didn’t report it and many many other things because like you wrote, I felt shameful. No one that heard him call me that stood up for me in any way so that kept in my distorted way of thinking that no one cared about me……I also felt ashamed with following through with reporting because I was ashamed for people to know that I let myself be treated that way by someone and kept coming back for more. And I didn’t report anyone else because I thought I would be labeled as a trouble maker/starter (I so very much regret not going all the way through with reporting them) It was my lowest of low.
I work with 90% men and my ex would come to work with crazy stories of things I did. Which were NOT true. Then they would all gossip about me. Turns out he was the one cheating behind my back not to mention had a horrendous pain pill addiction and an alcoholic but I was the one who got thrown under the bus.
I eventually left him almost 2 years ago but the mind games continued on at work. Most of our old co-workers moved on to other jobs and when the new guys came in who knew nothing of our past together, my ex made sure to tell them all that we were together before. Some of them he told I was “crazy” and the others said he spoke highly of me. It was all just a bunch of mind F@#$%&! He wanted at all costs to be seen as the good guy.
Thankfully, he was fired about a month and a half ago (he worked there for over 12 years I believe) for coming to work completely loaded. (this was actually going on pretty severely for about 6 months before anything happened, again no one said anything about it!)
After he was fired, other people at work kept coming up to me and saying how bad they felt that he got fired. I wanted to SCREAM!!!!! I wanted so badly to tell them all the horrible things he did and said to me but to be honest I don’t think any of them cared.
I still can’t believe he got fired. I guess now is the time to be able to try and heal the rest of the way but he is truly burned into my brain for the time being.
My ex is liked by everybody especially in the gym as he was a professional kickboxer and he inspires a lot of people. He and I were talking about moving in together and marrying. Then I found out how often he was lying and cheating and I broke up. Six days after he brought his new gf into the gym where I work and she signed up for a memebership. I saw them nearly every day together and I was always wondering “does she know about me”? I was confronted with the pain of seeing them every day! The relationship lasted for five months until he cheated on her with the current gf.
Three months later he proposed to the current gf and in a couple of days they are about to marry. They’ve been together for 11 months now. She is in my gym as well and only found out about me a month ago. She found my number in his mobile and rang me up. She wanted to know why we had broken up. First I didn’t really want to tell as they are about to marry in a couple of days. I asked her why she wanted to know. She said that she didn’t know about me and that she found pictures. She had the feeling that he was lying to her. I simply said “trust you intuition and your gutt feeling”! We had a very nice conversation and I told he a lot more. She didn’t know anything about him.
I guess they are still marrying in a couple of days as I can still see them training together.
For me it was a relief to figure out that other women suffer the same way like I did. It felt good to me telling her. Now it is on her what she does with the truth.
Yes! You did the right thing by having a civil convo with his gf. And yes I agree, it’s so easy for me to get carried away thinking he is different with his current partner. These men don’t self examine it change; they will eventually have the same issues and eventually move onto a new victim who is willing to put up with his crap
Thank you for your comment!
Oh man, does this post resonate. My ex, who as far as I could tell was some golden boy, lied to me about his 2 most recent exes, subtle lies that made them look a little bit needy and unable to let go, and made him look like the good guy. I found this out after he dumped me, started dating another girl in our circle of friends at church, and asked me “Please don’t make it weird.” THEN other people came out of the woodwork to tell me they knew about his similar past actions and thought so poorly of him. I would never have guessed from their behaviour beforehand. It’s galling to know that he’s lying about me now and sooner or later he’ll be lying about the current gf too, but the pastoral team is on to him at least. My main job is to learn that what he says and does is no reflection on me.
I was a harem member, but I wouldn’t have said anything to other members about how he treats people.
My reason back then was I was in competition with them and I was out to win.
He kept me separate from the other members so I did not really know them I just heard about all their activities together.
I also did not ever meet the girls he cheated on me with to tell them anything. I was angry that he would tell them about me & they would say they didn’t care that he was with me too so that made it less likely I would be telling them anything.
I still doubt I would say anything he sure does fly a lot of red flags.
Well some of you may have seen my post from a couple of days ago, where a harem member wanted to have dinner and proceeded to tell me all about an event that she and the N had attended and how much fun they had, etc., etc. So I made the decision to unfriend her on fb, and as Nat said “opt out of the competition.” And I know I made the right decision. BUT…..
I do believe this woman is a nice person, and as the N always targets, she is intelligent, beautiful, and successful.
So part of me feels bad because she is the one being punished by me because she felt the need to let me know about the good things she and the N had done. But we all know that she KNOWS the bad things or she wouldn’t have seeked me out to “test the waters.” The N, in the meantime, will continue his crappy ways.
I guess part of me wonders why I didn’t have the strength to just stop her mid-story and tell her my dealings with him. And also let her know about yet another woman that he is sleeping with at the moment. But I didn’t. I unfriended her instead.
Oh how these creatures dismantle the universe.
Rewind, I read the other post, and my first thought was that you had an encounter with a classic “mean girl”. I do not subscribe to the belief that we-women-are-all-on-the-same-team. I’ve seen a lot of mean girls, and I have interacted with a few.
That dinner date was all about her sending arrows of hurt your way by regaling you with stories about how the man who “used to be in to you is SO into me now.”
I’m sure she’s got great qualities, but in that moment with you, she was being a stone cold mean girl. Stop feeling bad about cutting her loose. And don’t feel bad about sending an arrow her way if she should try to regale you again…I’d say something like “Oh…did he do that with you, too? I know that’s one of his favorite moves.”
Maybe I been watchin’ too much Wendy Williams…?
Or instead, in the quest for a better life without AC drama, you could just look at her squarely and say “Honey, relax. I don’t want him. And in time, you probably won’t want him either.”
You are probably right. When I think back to the dinner, she did all the talking. Never once did she ask about me, even though I asked about her family, and told her that she had a darling granddaughter. Even when she wasn’t talking about him, she was telling me about wonderful things in her life, i.e. her granddaughter has a nanny, and about getting her hair done (which looked great), and how she just bought into a time share. Seriously, all I could do was nod and smile because I was hurting.
The only thing I did say to one of her remarks about her cat dying two years go (wanted to give me a point of reference that she was with him two years ago) and he told her “I just might show up at your house with a new kitten.” How sweet. So I said “Wow, he is really allergic to cats and I used to have to give him a Benedryl and then he’d end up falling asleep.” She acted like she didn’t even hear me say that and just kept on talking. Haha.
I did, stupidly, get involved with a man like this a few years ago who, thankfully, I no longer have to see
Predator may be too strong a word to use, but he was systematically trying to bed as many women from our sports club as possible ( I have a hobby where the men’s and women’s team of our sport have the same club house and mix a fair bit).
Also, he had not one but two queen bee status members of his Harem and one of them Facebook friended me the moment I got involved with him.
Nat is spot on about the futility of competing with the Harem and hoping that you’ll be the exception.
These guys seem to good to be true because they are. What we have to understand is that with guys like this, it’s not the guy’s true personality that we have fallen for but their carefully honed act which they have been perfecting over the years.
It’s an act the guy will keep up for as long as it takes to get you into bed, but it was never real.
Thank you, E. I am the Michelle who asked this question and your perspective and experience mirrors my own so closely. I am sorry you had one of these in your group too; thank you for sharing this – it really helps.
I agree with what Natalie has said. Many people are blinded by those who seem to be liked by everyone. I have seen my fair share of predatory behaviour during high school. It doesn’t even necessarily have to be in a romantic relationship either. I saw it more in toxic friendships than relationships. The “popular” people use to find and take advantage of individuals who just wanted to be accepted and get them to do their errands, homework, and some even went as far to get people to pay for things for them. Also the manipulative person is always the one at fault, these kinds of people always know what they are doing and continue to do so. I feel like others should be warned about these kinds of predators if they know about them instead of standing by and watching others get hurt, especially if you have been a victim of the predators abuse .
I would want all women warned about a rapist. Emotional and sexual rapists. Brock Turners of the world.
A friend of mine was recently raped by an okcupid date. The rapist is a well liked emergency room doctor with a young daughter. This man drugged my friend and raped her. Against advice, my friend never filed a police report. I know who this man is; yet I am unable to help others by exposing him because there is no proof.
But I would strongly encourage to listen to other women when they tell you a man is shady. Lots of times we write it off as competition, and think we will be that exception. But it’s usually not the case.
I wish there were more conversations with male children about consent, sexuality and boundaries.
Yep had one of those! He swore up and down everybody thought he was a good guy except me. I remember when me, him and the new girl were all together and I had the opportunity to tell her about him, but I realized what for! I told her that no matter what I said she was going to believe him no matter what. It is not my job to help her figure him out. I had no loyalty to her or him so she was going to have to find about him on her own. She looked confused and didn’t know what to believe but that was her problem. Oh well!
The overt N predator befriended both myself and my guy into his harem. He tried to split us up when I refused his advances. He alienated us from the group and everyone was asking what was wrong, because the N was such a “great guy” in their opinion (he fooled us for a while too).
My guy discreetly told the N’s old best male friend what he had been doing and explained why there was so much tension. He chose to tell because the N was coming on with intentions to make his best friend’s wife his next target. Of course the best friend was in denial about me being a target and then his wife. All the people in our group were because they all liked the N because he lied about so many things.
I too wished I had been told about his shady N behaviour. I too thought because he was living with his gf and I wasn’t interested in anything physical and having my own relationship it would be safe to be a part of the wider group of his. How wrong I was. I have learnt a lot about N’s since this person and finding Nat’s advice has helped me make sense of his crazy making.
My ex-N was a different kind of experience because he kept going on and on about empathy all the time. He was probably more in the covert group. It took decades for me to realise what he was. I wish his exes could have warned me about him too.
I just seem to be surrounded by Ns that I no longer trust people. But at least I am more aware and clued up now. I just feel jaded.
Wow! What an article for someone like me to read, as I experienced this same “competition” phase of my relationship with a N last year. He came on very strong, charming, doing everything right. At work, he was so attentive and buying me lunch and really laying it on thick. I felt as though I was the only one. It wasn’t until later that I stumbled upon him talking with another co-worker and their guilty looks gave it away. She obviously knew I was the next one because he was focusing so much attention on me, yet she was still dealing with him. Turns out, he was finessing two other co-workers in addition to me this whole time. I felt so stupid. Both of them were laughing at me after I found out. I was silly enough to try to compete for his attention with the other two, only to find out he was enjoying it more and still talking to them anyway. This only wounded my self-esteem even more and made me feel so low. That’s is how I discovered this website and got rid of the N. And boy did he try and try and tried to turn it on me for “leaving” him and “refusing to acknowledge” him as if I had done something wrong!
I have read some of your previous article’s that address this similar situation. I had considered, many times, emailing screenshots of my (now ex,) husband’s texts of professing love/verbal diarrhea to me, to his affair partner, while still in a full-on 2 1/2 year live-in relationship with her, (after I split.) I had considered meeting up with her, to explain his issues of non-commitment and pinning over lost loves, (even w/me, ignored red flag.)since I had known the man longer. I had compassion for her, as the other woman, knowing that we were being played by the same asshole and he was feeding us both the same pack of lies and bullshit. Ultimately, I opted out of doing this after thinking it through, due to:
A) Really, I would be doing this to make myself feel better by sabotaging their relationship so I wouldn’t have to deal with the yucky feelings of the initial affair, even though I already made up my mind to leave the relationship entirely and let them be together. It would be a vindictive sort of manipulation and I would be lowering my values to play their f-ed up game. (This is why it is so important to cut out manipulators because you run the risk of becoming one yourself in trying to handle them!)
B) This chick willingly was the Other woman; which meant that she was running from her marital problems, didn’t mind being last on the list, and knew that my husband had to lie and cheat to be with her, so she herself was okay with that kind of behavior and knew what she might have been getting herself into, (if one has any sort of conscience, there will be some apprehension, especially with a kid involved.) [Note: When I asked him if she asked him to leave me for her, he told me she “left it up to him.” BULLSHIT!]
C) My ex would find a way to sabotage that relationship on his own, without my help. All I had to do was watch. The problem with watching and expecting his bad behavior to prove myself right is still seeking external validation for negative beliefs about myself; and still keeps me hanging onto the “relationship, or non-relationship crack,” until they officially break up, if they ever do. I don’t allow myself to grieve and move on if I still care.
D) A good mutual friend I made through the ex-husband, who’s family still hangs out with him, said something that stopped me in my tracks to finally disengage entirely from the ex’s drama and go as little contact as possible, ( we have a kid.) She mentioned his name and I lost it in badmouthing him and telling her “all about him,” after recently finding out from our son that his affair partner was spending the night even though he told me they were done and even asked me on a date a month previous (YES, I DECLINED!)
She said, “You obviously sound disturbed!” Wow. And I’m thinking, I’m not disturbed! I’m triggered because I’ve been putting up with this asshole’s bullshit for 2 1/2 years!
I HAVE BEEN PUTTING UP WITH IT, meaning I have been the one to engage and keep it alive by responding, holding his hand, wiping his ass, trying to teach a 40 year old man that cheating and lying is wrong…. and also, I keep it alive when I bitch about it to our mutual and my personal friends. Period. I am finally free.
Again, thank you Natalie, for passing your wisdom in the most committed manner. I have been internalizing your lessons as long as I have been a reader. Seriously, thank you. Your gift has been a blessing.
I realize that my above post is the opposite of this specific situation; but both your advice in this situation, as well as opting-out advice in previous articles/situations, both address taking your power back, and asserting boundaries. I’m really glad to observe a different scenario, in which it would be considered acceptable to shine some light on someone’s b.s.
I’ve heard it said, “Girls compete, women empower.”
How/where can you send questions for Advice Wednesday and/or the podcast? Thank you!
Email question to Podcast@baggagereclaim.com 🙂
Hi. I am the Michelle who submitted this question and I appreciate your willingness to respond – it’s great to hear your thoughts on it, Natalie – and reading the comments too.
I have started talking about this person when the subject comes up and, each time I do, I feel stronger, calmer, more grounded. I don’t want other new performers to feel like they’re The Only One Who Went Through This with this person. One performer I told is now organizing a meeting to discuss safe performance spaces – she was so grateful I mentioned what happened to me and wants to open it up even more to talk about how to deal with people who exploit their power in the scene.
I think my hesitation is, as Natalie points out, some shame that I was “fooled” by this person’s persona. I fell for him and I feel like an idiot somewhere inside. He is from my hometown, we went to the same high school – I gave him a lot of passes because of our shared background. I trusted him and ignored all the red flags until I couldn’t anymore.
Female performers ask me, “who is it” and I still have trouble naming him sometimes. When I know them well, I trust them and I say his name. I think my baggage is, I’ve been hurt by female friends who have chosen men over me (including my own mother who married someone who put his hands on me). Undoubtedly, this is why I have trouble saying who it is: the fear that women will say, “I would rather have his attention than believe he hurt you and your experience doesn’t matter to me.” It’s a great source of hurt in my past with two major friendships with female friends ending for that reason – as well as the pain of my mother choosing my abuser over me.
So thank you Natalie for helping me identify the fear, the baggage. There’s no question my hesitation to talk about what he did stems from these losses, these betrayals by important women in my life. I will work hard to name him, to face up to what he did and allow the chips to fall where they may and accept that some women (and men) will not believe me and they will make their choices – and I can see them clearly for who they are too and, while it might hurt right then, it’s the right thing in the long term and saves me a lot more pain in the future.
Thanks everyone – and thank you Natalie for taking my question and responding so clearly and compassionately.
I can’t help but be mindful of the larger patterns emerging in arts communities all over – including this amazing article in the Chicago Reader recently: http://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/profiles-theatre-theater-abuse-investigation/Content?oid=22415861
As a result of this man’s abuses and exploitation of his power, the Profiles Theater (once lauded as an edgy, high status gig) is closed and now, larger conversations are happening about sexism, power and abuse in the arts. I wanted to share this to ensure other performers are aware of this dynamic and know that multiple women speaking up is what ultimately shut this perpetrator down.
Was part of a harem for 3 years, even got a child with this man and only came to find out he had bedded every girl in the office a month ago…he got away with it because he had the position and ability to manipulate the younger girls . He worked his persona so well, handsome. quiet. smooth operator. I blamed myself when he left. little did i know that when i was 6 months pregnant and started showing, he needed a new catch, i was used and done…..i left the job so i wouldn’t have to deal with him, because in my moments of weakness i was going to run back to him, because he denied his son (who is looks like him) because at the office, i became a laughing stalk for getting his baby and because that’s what all my harem club members had done before me. its “public” knowledge he did this from as far back as 2005. I was clueless, but when i stated talking, people finally opened up, a tad too late, but i have told all i can tell so maybe it doesn’t happen to another girl, i’m aware that by leaving i won’t be able to reach all as he preys on all the “new girl” i feel bad that i wasn’t able to expose him enough but so i can heal and for my son’s sake, i left.
Michelle who asked the question, posting here! I could not *wait* to get to my computer today to give you all an UPDATE.
So yesterday I took a huge risk and I shared my story about this EU guy with *three* lady friends I really love and care about. I was so worried they would blame me for his behavior, twist it around, not believe me or some other version of justifying their association with this guy.
Instead, they had their own stories to share and thanked me for telling them. It was like we were all relieved we had seen/experienced the same thing. One woman is performing with him next weekend and was starting to get a “vibe” and now, she knows it’s not in her head. Another told me she felt “the ick factor” around him and couldn’t put her finger on why… It was such a relief *and* it didn’t feel like gossip at all. It felt like me looking out for and connecting on a deeper level with my friends.
I wanted them to hear me and understand – but did not have an agenda for what I thought they should do with the information (and it’s taken me some time to let go of the “revenge” motivation). For example, the woman who is performing in his show – it’s totally fine with me that she does that. I felt no sense of “you need to quit his show in solidarity with me.” She did say she wished she’d known about his antics before she took the gig …which actually further encourages me to talk about what happened with other new performers! 🙂
So, I wanted to let y’all know that this guidance is really spot-on for me and I am so grateful. I feel closer to my friends. I feel more grounded that my story/experience is important, that I will be heard and believed and that, although no one warned me about him, I can be that person for others and that feels really healing and good.
Thanks.
Well done, Michelle! It’s wonderful that you’re sharing what happened from an authentic place. It just takes one person speaking out to get the ball rolling. Remember, everyone who has experienced him has grappled with blame, shame, confusion and probably a host of contradictory feelings due to 1) his manipulation and 2) some confusing messages us women pick up about how we should feel about or respond to this type of crappy behaviour.
I needed this article. Unfortunately for me, this guy works with me. He has been there for over 10 years and I joined 2 years ago. We work in different parts of the offices. He spotted me and made a bee line for me for several months. I realised more than year later than it was just for sex. More stories at work are coming out (heard one last week inadvertantly in the loo!!).
He tried to sabotage me at work last year with a false complaint to his line manager. I dumped him as s friend (well we started as a friends and naively I thought we will continue). I then fell very ill for 3 months. He found out through a co worker and helped a little (10 percent out of his 90 percent verbal commitment).
Despite my saying lets ensure we talk and set a way we both are comfortable at work going forwards – he didn’t. Silent treatment started again and now I told him that i am DONE with him. It was draining and demeaning and I don’t want any of this anymore.
Two months later – I find out he has gone to HR to complain informally about “I am trying to defame him at work”. I told him a while back that I was asked by an ex colleague if I was one his work conquests and I told her nothing happened. He is annoyed that I said anything at all. He also complained that I sent personal emails to his work email – he shared a selection of them with HR. We have emailed back and forth for over two years. I asked him not to but when he said it was ok, we contd.
Thankfully it seemed HR is aware of his reputation and said I should stay away, he is not worth the trouble. They will another word with him. Nevertheless it was shocking and embarrassing. I am worried about what he would do next – which I have told HR. He tried to paint a picture that I am spreading rumours at work about him because he has said no to a relationship with me. Where as I told him months ago I am seeing another person (something I mentioned to HR again!). He has requested I don’t speak with him at personal level – which ironically I told him a while back.
It’s been a month since the drama with HR. I am much better now but still a little nervous in the morning when I wake up. I nervous about bumping into him at work. It has triggered some bad things from past but I am getting better now.