On my last post about it not mattering if they’re unavailable or not interested, Christine left a thought provoking comment that got me thinking:
“I’m taking great pains to ensure that assclowns and emotionally unavailables don’t even make it through the vetting process. But I’m missing the za za zu. I’m not finding that any of these men who we would consider stable, datable men, can make my heart skip a beat, which makes me wonder: does part of the za za zu come from these guys being distant/a little dangerous/naughty/etc, ergo more exciting?”
While I’m not keen to use Sex and the City (much as I love it) as a linchpin of true to life portrayals of modern relationships (yes that wedding), Christine’s question originates from when Carrie asked “When it comes to saying ‘I do,’ is a relationship a relationship without the zsa zsa zsu (aka: that special something that gives you butterflies in the stomach)?”
I regularly hear from women that say that they want to be treated like a princess, to be swept away by a prince (yes really), to feel flutters, butterflies, fireworks, excitement, and ‘passion’. Who are they all dating, mooning over, flogging that donkey till it collapses with, or holding out for?
Someone that’s ambiguous, that’s amazing when it’s good and in the pits of hell when it’s bad, who doesn’t call when they say they will, will screw them well as well as screw them over, can’t commit, won’t commit or even belongs to someone else, says one thing does another, rolls out a red carpet future and replaces it with a sample size piece of carpet or disappears, fast forwards them with a major intensity that gets replaced with lukewarm or even a cold tap, uses them, may even abuse them, and may keep them as an option in their back pocket. That’s just the tip of the iceberg and it was exhausting to write!
If you get excited by being jerked around and not knowing your arse from your elbow but feel ‘Meh’ around decent, available partners, it’s time to evaluate what ‘excitement’ really means to you.
A lot of zsa zsa zu comes from the unknown.
Unless you’re planning to avoid the security that comes with ‘the known’ (aka what some of you call ‘boring’ or ‘too nice’), keeping so much ‘unknown’ in your relationship is a killer to the landmarks of healthy relationships – commitment, intimacy, progression, balance, and consistency.
Too much unknown means you can’t know what to trust or expect unless they become consistent at being inconsistent which makes it the new consistency but still a pain in the bum.
I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve felt the zsa zsa zu, so much that it’s almost reduced to something as banal as putting milk and two sugars in my tea. As I got tired of being dicked around and being ‘excited’ (read: anxious) about some guy that wasn’t even in the same relationship as me or was unwilling to step up, I had to ask “How’s that working out for you, Natalie?”
Since I was 13 in Dublin and allowed to go to the discos on a Friday and until I was 28, I chased and tried to hold on to a feeling. If you’ve read my post on dating reflections of your father, you’ll know that chasing a feeling with my ‘type’ turned out to be “daddy hunting”
“…I took an already very imperfect man with not so great relationship habits and basically tagged on him loving me unconditionally and making me feel all the things I didn’t feel for myself and doing everything I thought that relationships were all about…and then went out looking for it. This person was a figment of my imagination and I’d made a person with conflicting qualities and characteristics and expected it to give me a relationship it was incapable of giving.
Father Image + Unrealistic Expectations = Mr Unavailable, the man fundamentally incapable of meeting your needs.”
I wouldn’t go dying on your ‘type sword’ if I were you. Many of us claim that something or someone is ‘right’ for us, even when we feel like shite and it’s so wrong. If your type yields unhealthy relationships, why would you keep flogging and trying to get it to make you the exception?
If you feel chemistry with someone that’s unavailable, it’s actually due to the ‘synergy’ between you both being unavailable. If you don’t have the common ground of a mutual relationship, there’s no point in going on about how they’re a great lay that listens to Mozart, loves fine food, 18th century poetry, and bungee jumping.
After the boyf asked my friend for my number, I was pleased, but I didn’t dwell on it and fantasise like I normally would. He went away for ten days, I was surprised and a little gleeful that he called and then we went out. On our first date, I was VERY CALM. We had a brilliant time. There was no antsy feeling or crazy butterflies and in fact I felt very peaceful and at ease. I was relieved.
Familiarity would have been a sign of the typical Mr Unavailables I went for.
Bar a week after we started going out when he fell asleep after a round of golf and didn’t call and I marked his cards as a twat for 30 minutes before I called him, I’ve never had to deal with ambiguity. If that means we’re lacking the ‘zsa zsa zu’, I’ll take it. The evolved me doesn’t get turned on by wondering if someone will show up, analysing the crappola out of the relationship, or living scared all the time.
This feeling is great, whatever it’s called. Relationships and feelings are the sum of a number of things, not just one. You can’t ‘make’ a relationship on ‘zsa zsa zu’ which reminds me of a quote from Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl:
“Why do you think it’s so easy for certain Mr Unavailables to dip in and out of a woman’s life over a period of years?
She’s not focused on the time that’s elapsed; she’s focused on the ‘feeling’ she had on each of those occasions with him.”
You need more than occasions, moments, and ‘good times’ as you will end up building sandcastles in the sky. A mutually fulfilling relationship and excitement are not mutually exclusive but it’s unrealistic to expect to feel excited all the time.
Do you want a rollercoaster or a relationship? You’ll notice that no-one rides rollercoasters 24/7 and the thrill wears off after a while.
For love to take hold and grow, steadiness is needed. Relationships full of hot air and excitement go in fits and starts, regress or come to a halt and if steadiness and the known bores you, a rollercoaster awaits. Much like the pleasure seeker that chases bigger thrills, you have to accept the risks that come with it.
As an ex drama seeker and maker, I admit to initially having moments of feeling unnerved by normality but it would be crazy to kill off the best I’ve ever felt, to go back to a feeling I’ve had at the worst I’ve ever felt.
Don’t prescribe your relationships. Let it be and certainly don’t fanny around comparing to old (painful) relationships.
Instead of chasing a feeling, focus on having a mutually fulfilling relationship that feels good with love, care, trust, and respect present. If you embrace these things instead of seeing them as a dampener on your libido fire, you get the excitement of sharing your life with someone, of being yourself, of making plans and actually seeing them happen.
There’s a flip side to getting your kicks from people that rely on being ambiguous or are even dangerous – it’s not conducive to love, commitment, intimacy, or a healthy relationship. That kind of ‘excitement’ and a healthy relationship are mutually exclusive.
Your thoughts?
Check out my ebooks the No Contact Rule and Mr Unavailable & The Fallback Girl and more in my bookshop.
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This really hit the nail on the head! There was a moment near the end with my ex-AC when I was on the phone with one of my friends who is engaged. I was so “excited” because I was going to visit him and meet his friends. Part of the “excitement” came from not knowing whether or not he was actually going to follow through, because when I’d been invited before he’d cancel with a ridiculous excuse. When I hung up the phone I felt kind of, well, pathetic, because there I was talking to someone who had the real excitement of planning a wedding AND a whole future with someone and I was beside myself because I might just finally be acknowledged as part of someone’s life who’d been jerking me around for five years and keeping me a secret.
I have always chosen unavailable men. And so that makes me also unavailable. The men who have given me butterflies are the ones whose love is fleeting. Then there are the “nice” guys who were interested in me, that I was repulsed by. But here’s the thing, these “nice” guys were too nice, i.e., pushovers. I was ambivalent at best, or sometimes just outright rejected them, and sometimes it took them a while to move on. I think this particular brand of nice guy was also unavailable, if he was chasing after an unavailable woman like me.
So, for those of us who are unavailable, these would seem like the only two choices out there. Therefore, the guy whose love we can never quite catch, is the one who will hold our attention, because at least he seems to have a backbone.
So, if like attracts like, and I am unavailable, then these would be the only two types of men that I would interact with: either the man I can’t have, who I chase, or the man who can’t have me, and chases me.
I propose that there is third type of man. The truly available man who knows how to love, care, and respect me, but knows himself and his boundaries, and so therefore does not stop loving and respecting himself in order to try and catch me.
I say this because the term “nice” gets so overused, that I don’t think it can adequately describe the type of healthy man I want to find in the future.
ICan
To be repulsed by someone who likes you is a sign of low self-esteem. I actually despised my first boyfriend for loving me so much. We think we’re so crap that anyone who likes us must be weak, stupid, pathetic. You don’t want a man to love you, you want him to make you work for his approval. If I can win over a disappearing, half-hearted person, who for some reason I think is better than me, won’t that make me special?
Mind you, I’m not advocating that we just go for “nice”. Nice is overrated. Be specific about what you want – authenticity, reliability, loyalty, consistency, someone who stands up for what they believe in.
We miss the point when we see this as a game of strength or backbone or pulling/chasing. That’s fine for picking up people in bars. But to build a life with someone, you have to look for more substantial things.
I’m not criticising. I’m on this journey myself.
“To be repulsed by someone who likes you is a sign of low self-esteem.”
I do believe that is true, and you make some very good points, Grace. I’m still trying to figure all this out. I am on a relationship hiatus right now, simply because I don’t feel ready to look for anything new, and I’m trying to define exactly what that healthy relationship would look like.
I know I have had very low self-esteem in my relationships in the past, and I am trying to figure out how to change that pattern. And as I look back on some of the men who were interested in me, who were so-called “nice”, what I see now is that their behavior didn’t seem to exhibit self-respect. It seemed to mirror my low self-esteem behavior with some of the EU’s I was involved with. Such as pursuing someone who is showing disinterest. Controlling behaviors, like calling repeatedly (like 8 times in one evening) before I had a chance to call back. One guy left a note on my windshield (after I declined a 2nd date with him), telling me I was the best thing to happen in his sad, pathetic life, and how he was devastated that I didn’t want to continue to see him.
I think, in my small unavailable world, the only choices I saw were either the elusive EU man I could not get, or these other men I describe.
I guess my point is, for an EUW, like me, to say she is not interested in nice guys, might not be an accurate truth. Because I believe there are men who are nice, but with healthy boundaries and a sense of self-respect, that I have never experienced.
I was physically repulsed by an ex. It was not because he was too nice, though he did treat me better than the others. He still has his stuff. I tried for years to make myself physically attracted to him but it was not happening. I told myself even though I was not attracted to him I’ll give it a try since he treats me better. He spent money on me which is a lot more than anyone else ever did! Hell I was taking the guy out before that because he spent all his money on dope!
Several years later it finally fell a part. With the attraction issue coupled with other serious problems that arose, it could not stay together any longer. Initially I should have listened to myself but I am at a place now where I see the value that relationship held for me.
ICanDoBetter – I’ve had the same experience, I think – all the blokes that were into me were also clingy nutters – I also tend to remember them as ‘soppy’ – and it’s sort of put me off.
Thing is, I think, that in my past where I might’ve met really open, balanced, happy men they probably didn’t register with me but also I wouldn’t have registered with them. Who wants to spend time with someone who’s only interested in digging into your psyche and rooting up all your problems if you don’t have many problems and don’t want to dwell on them anyway?
It’s a two-way thing. I am only really just starting to realise how deeply dysfunctional I’ve been for years.
Yogurt! A-haa moment here. This describes me. I’m a magnet to the guys who have a certain type of problem and choose to dwell on it. Each time, I was hooked before I knew they were not quite right. At the time they just seem ‘deep’ to me, a bit reclusive, living the life of the mind… and then they turn out to be so hurt as to have a limited capacity to trust or be happy. At age sixteen, I fell for a boy who was eight years old when his father killed himself in the family’s home… I didn’t know this at the time (he never spoke of it) but it explains helluva lot. He was just the beginning of a line of injured souls, all of whom were preoccupied with tragedy and wrongdoing, sabotaging any chance for a happy present and future with me. (Btw I wasn’t trying to fix them, they weren’t the needy needs-rescuing type: just the melancholic, troubled genius, with a philosophical bent… there’s my type in a nutshell. My mission was to “understand”.) And yes, I went digging deep. And yes, I found nothing but pain – for myself. What exactly the appeal was is still somewhat of a mystery to me. I do know that one subconscious assumption I had is that since they know pain, they would not cause pain. Of course I know better now, but it’s hard to retrain my brain to recognize this optical illusion: the sad ones seem tender and compassionate.
Oh yes, and the one I married was one I wasn’t much physically attracted to either. What the bleep?!
Haha cavewoman, oh how I love “the melancholic, troubled genius, with a philosophical bent…” That’s my type to a T – the description still gives me the shivers.
‘Course, I’m trying to replace it with “the grumpy, dissatisfied poser, with an uncommunicative/whiny bent” but it’s taking time.
I don’t suppose you’re always attracted to the bad guys in films, are you? The ones who are nasty and evil because they’re deeply troubled in a way that they can’t express?
I think the third type you mentioned is the one with balance…not pathetically needy nor an ass…but one like we are aiming for ourselves: authentic, available (emotionally and physically), loyal, conscious of boundaries, give and take, etc.. IMO it is wise and necessary to step out of dating as you are doing…keep it up and you will be more aware and when you are ready you will be ready to step into healthy relationships and bail out if the bad raises it’s ugly again…that is something I’m working on…no matter how strong I may feel, how connected I may feel, if it is wrong I will let go, disconnect, go NC, love them from afar because I must take care of me and not enable negative in others nor put myself throught the wringer…I know better now thanks to BR
Oh my goodness, grace. You just gave me a light bulb moment & food for thought (paragraph below). I felt the same way about my 1st real boyfriend too. WOW. Thank you very much.
“To be repulsed by someone who likes you is a sign of low self-esteem. I actually despised my first boyfriend for loving me so much. We think we’re so crap that anyone who likes us must be weak, stupid, pathetic. You don’t want a man to love you, you want him to make you work for his approval. If I can win over a disappearing, half-hearted person, who for some reason I think is better than me, won’t that make me special?”
I think I know what your saying, Sometimes “nice” just means they are too agreeable, That can stink too becasue later on you’ll find out the truth about them anyhow.
Example: I was seeing someone once who played “nice” but really wasn’t, Long story. But he pretended to even like foods he did not really like, Then later admitted he did not really like that kind, Things like that. Next thing I know he wasn’t at all the person he made out to be in many ways, He just wanted to to capture me, My mom knew he was a phony from day one, I guess I did too but didn’t want to be alone, But hey we had great sex, lol! In the end the only thing he was good for concerning me.
Yes there is a “Balance” to things especially when it comes to “Nice” You can be nice and still be real, upfront and honest about your likes and dislikes etc.
I don’t think you are wrong to be repulsed by a guy who just doesn’t do it for you. However, if you are in a place (and I’m working through this myself) where you are only attracted to unavailable guys and ANYONE who likes you seems repulsive to you, which seems to be what you are saying is the case, then I think it is time to go on a dating (and sex) hiatus. Don’t worry about men at all, and take the time you normally put into thinking about them and use it to cook for yourself, do fun activities, spend time with friends, get rid of clothes that don’t fit you, think about how you can meet your career goals faster, and otherwise do nice things for yourself. This is what I’m doing right now and I can literally feel my interest in unavailable guys diminish more and more each day and I actually sometimes laugh when I think about what pathetic clowns they are. I think if I can keep this up, I will eventually fall for a person who is actually right for me – committed and caring, but who can still get me excited to be with him – because, let’s face it, you need that too or it ain’t a relationship.
Actually Nat I would have to say in a healthy relationship there are moments of za za zu. I get excited around holidays, special days – anticipation of rekindling after a business trip (read lovely dinner, fine wine, candlelight and that new sexy lingerie I just bought) So yes that “excitement” is there in a healthy way and it SOOOOO much better than the shitty kind that comes with waiting for the shoe to drop.
I had a revelation that blew me for a moment. Looking back I thought of all the dreams I had of building a life (at that time with the ExEUM/AC) of the projects around the house, the tree at Christmas, BBQs, entertaining friends etc… I realized that it was the life I was dreaming of having but he really wasn’t part of the picture. I saw me doing these things – he was just sort of … around. It was the life I wanted but not the life he wanted. He was not “the one” nor did he want to be. We were incompatable on several levels. But as you said he was willing to screw me and screw me around as long as there was no emotional committment. I have that life now – the one I dreamed of and this time with the right person for me.
As for Daddy hunting – just recently I saw a picture of my step-father (now deceased) and it stopped me in my tracks – they even looked alike! Scary!
I totally agree!!!
And especially with my own future fantasies, which were mostly about what I wanted to achieve and I was trying to drag my AC along with me (although he also participated in the creation of our Future Fantasy myth, rolling out the red carpet and then some!).
Decent guys, or “nice” guys, often seems less exciting because they don’t want to run full-throttle into lusty fantasy love.
Natalie, your blog is wonderful. It’s taken me a year to get over my divorce. A friend sent me a link to your blog about a month ago. I’ve been doing No Contact (FANTASTIC!!!), even to the point of asking my sister to manage all of our conversations around my son. I feel calm and happy for the first time since… maybe even before we started dating. Every day I do one thing that is all about looking after myself. I concentrate on the things that I’m good at, rather than the things that I’m getting wrong or aren’t going the way that I had expected. I’m focusing on what’s real.
Maybe I’m slowly turning into a “nice” girl?
Decent guys, or “nice” guys, often seems less exciting because they don’t want to run full-throttle into lusty fantasy love.
Absolutely! Nice guys don’t want to mess you around or hurt you, so they won’t make promises they think they can’t keep, they won’t tell you how they feel unless they are absolutely sure of it, they take things slowly, get to know you properly, it’s not just about sex or going out and having superficial fun and then ignoring you the rest of the time. They are slow to lable things and talk about the future, until they are sure they want to be with you. And they also leave you in no doubt that they want to be with you. They don’t blow hot and cold, they are consistently ‘there’, doing what they say they will, being attentive, showing they care.
They can be all that and still be exciting. I know plenty of decent guys who have me in tears of laughter, who have exciting interests and are super intelligent and will not put up with any nonsense from anyone. They are out there! 🙂
Hey another great post Natalie. I also have to admit to having a moment of clarity whilst reading the blog by ICanDoBetter!! Cracking logic there I must say. I too have always felt there are only two types of men; the ones who make you feel excited aka “zsa zsa zuu” who I always end up with….or the ones who are boring and “nice” who I ultimately avoid like the plague…. All this is making so much sense to me, but, just have to work out how to start doing things differently now -_- hmmm
Sometimes its the deep feelings we had in our lives that stay. My emotional unavailable man called me after weeks of NC just to awake my hopes to be with him again.I was excited and at the same time i wad scared he was just blowing hot. I called him again after some time an d asked :Will you go back to your ex?…….there was silence…..then he said: yes i will…….Well i was so mad because i wondered WHY…..he knew i was trying to get over him but i guess he looked for the good feelings, the thrill he got when we talked……the advices i gave him……and the feeling to get sure that i love him still. This was very hurtfull and disappointing.Well i guess i gave him a big ego boost that got surely down when i left a last message on hid work phone with the advice he should consult a therapist to get clear about his narcistic behaviour.
I think this man loved this feeling you described in your post too. He loved when it came up again but then he vanished just to leave another scar. I think not only WE women love to feel the exciting feeling
that we get from them but we have to have a very clear look at the situations.If there is no steady commitment no steady feelings no steady talking no steady empathy……why are we still waiting?For them to change into PrinceIWillSteadilyLoveYouSomeday……i guess not.
Some of us missed this kind of steadyness in our childhood for whatever reason and we tend to repeat this pattern. The sooner we realize we the sooner we are able to get steady love from a true person and not just an illusion.
Nat i read your posts since some months……i am glad i found your site and i bought your e book. Great thing really:) Excuse my English is maybe not the best i am from Germany
“Some of us missed this kind of steadyness in our childhood for whatever reason and we tend to repeat this pattern.”
Anpthjer light bulb/food for thought moment. Thanks simone71. 🙂
Yes, yes and yes! I was chasing the zsa zsa zu, and nice guys literally made me sick to my stomach with how boring they seemed. Thinking of going out with one of them made me cringe. ‘Nice guy’ meant ‘boring guy’, and to be stuck with one of them meant I would be settling for the worst of the bunch. This is actually how I thought!!
Thank goodness I’ve seen the light. Now a nice guy is at the top of the list, and I think feeling that reciprocal care, trust, love and respect will ultimately give me many zsa zsa zu moments but in a much healthier way.
I’m not scared of the lack of Zsa Zsa Zu anymore. I had been involved unavailables, married men, an assclown and all the time I was just hoping something better would come along the way. It didn’t… until my relationship beliefs changed for good and once I realized I had a thing for toxic men. It wasn’t until I discovered that I did have a low self esteem that I started to make different choices. Now I’m with a decent guy, no much of the zsa zsa, but a lot of caring and loving. The relationship is predictable, but I like it and I wouldn’t change it.
I’ve been covering the topic of ‘The One’ today, and available is definitely top of my list! The post is on my homepage http://www.myhonestanswer.com
And I definitely think A LOT of the excitement comes from unavailability!
I was definetly chasing the zsa zsa zu with MM….that and the high school sweetheart syndrome!! Luckily when I do have moments of weakness and engage in conversation he very quickly shows me who he is again. I am now in very low contact with him so today he sends me a fishing email to try to keep the door open… (I am really in control of the situation) I suggest maybe we could talk today….as it has been a long time….and I am no longer engaging in texting with him. He doesn’t dissapoint me by saying “I am thinking about you always….and yes, it has been forever and I am sad about it. I just can’t believe how unbelieveably busy and hectic things are. When is a good time to call?” Immediately I think to myself what he is really saying is….I’m thinking of you always but I don’t think highly enough of you to want to hear your voice and nobody is that busy in their lives to spare two minutes to make a call to say hello.
It may not seem like it but I am taking back my life slowly but surely! It is confusing to me because the zsa zsa zsa for me isn’t based on drop dead gorgeous looks, super intelligence, and the red flags are too numerous to count – the most important one is being married, he doesn’t have a lot of money and he doesn’t spoil me, and to top it off he is overweight….. so why… I ask myself, why can’t I muster the strength to say its over one and for all??? why do I feel the need to spare his feelings and engage with him?
EmLaw, I noted that you stated recently that you were trapped, today it’s “Why can’t I…”. I think you may wish to rephrase your self-talk and go from there…a married man can’t take calls at all times…everything is dangerous with them…EVERYTHING! Please go NC ALL THE WAY…seems to me you are stuck by your own thinking and your words…action plus words is needed. True passion is allowed in a trusting relationship of discovery and balance..you don’t have that with him; none of us have it with someone who is not co-piloting a relationship. JUMP out of that pit and love you with all of the attention you have been giving to someone else so that you will come to a place of peace…
Em, take it one day at a time. Before I went NC, I started low contact before I even knew what I was doing or what that meant and before I discovered this website. I experienced the same phenomenon. It is always on their terms and they are always “BUSY”. Right before I discovered this website and it may have been what prompted me to google “OW”, we had made plans to be together on a Sunday evening for dinner. He called late on Saturday and wanted to come over in the morning for a hike and a afternoon bbq. Couldn’t make dinner, something came up. Since it was one of the few times we had actual plans for Sunday evening, I had made brunch plans on Sunday morning/afternoon. Holy shit, you’d think the earth had stopped rotating and an asteroid had wiped out planet earth. As he put it, “I cleared the whole f—king day for you and that’s not good enough”. I never had the chance to point out that I had not asked him to clear his precious afternoon for me nor had he consulted with me regarding the change in plans prior to late Saturday evening. I believe I found BR that night. Thank god.
“so why… I ask myself, why can’t I muster the strength to say its over one and for all??? why do I feel the need to spare his feelings and engage with him?” It’ll come. Like you, every time I engaged after my denial cracked and before I went NC, I started to see how selfish, egocentric, and difficult he was. The happy zsa zsa triggered by the excitment of being with him started being outweighed by the angry zsa zsa of not being with him. I believe the zsa zsas may be the flip side of the same coin. In any event, keep taking your life back, although it has always been yours, and keep your eyes open if you chose to engage. You’ll muster the strength. Don’t you love how they are always thinking about us, miss us, but are doing NOTHING to be with us? Gotta love the contradiction between their words and their actions. That contradiction took the zsa zsa out of it for me, finally. Keep the faith. XXO
@ Runnergirl -@leisha – You are so right everything is dangerous with them. The contradiction between his words and his actions is exactly what is ending this. The contradiction is telling me how empty his words really are. We spoke yesterday and it is amazing how the zsa zsa zu changes when you have some space – space that lets you see things the way they really are. Pathetic as it may seem I used to get butterflys when I would see I had a new text message from him then I started looking at my phone as a cause of pain. Not texting anymore has really ended that luxury for him though. I love the emails I get now saying “I wished you sweet dreams Tuesday night” – 1) he controlled me by me constantly checking my phone for messages 2) in the past I would have dove on that crumb of a text as a sign but not anymore. Seriously…does he want a medal for sending one two-word text in three days?? I want the zsa zsa zu from someone looking at me with love, treating me with value and respect not looking at me and getting an instant erection like MM did!
Hey Em,
You are sounding a lot like me when I started to say no and I stopped dropping and rolling just because he could slot me into his busy schedule. The zzz does change with space. I can’t even remember now how he justified how his words of “I love you” didn’t match with going home to his wife. Pathetic. By the end, there was no zzz, just pain.
Oh yeah, I started seeing text and email messages were crumbs and a form of control too. Not only are they are form of lazy communication as Natalie suggests, he’d use cyberspace to make sure I was still there, hooked, and he was in control. The only good thing about texts and emails was that I could ignore them. And they most certainly want a medal in recognition of the crumbs they throw our way. I used to do that which indicated to him exactly how little I’d settle for.
The life of an OW is filled with fleeting highs and incredible lows. I love rollercoasters but I think I’ll stick to D-Land for that type of thrill. Within a relationship, I think I’m am looking for actions and words that are commensurate, availability, love, honesty, and respect. That seems pretty thrilling to me right now, not boring one drop. Good luck to you.
Great article, thank you Natalie. I am completely with Grace in that “nice” may be equal to ‘intelligence’ (the trouble with being blinded by intelligence post) and we may be in danger of seeing these qualities as being equal to an emotionally available man who shows through actions (not smiles) that he is authentic, reliable and able to deliver on his promises. Most damaging man I ever had the misfortune to allow into my life was ‘nice’ and I believed that ‘nice’ equalled great long term relationship material – so burned, so damaged, so not nice!
Ok everyone – I am officially confused! What is all this ‘nice’ stuff about? That’s not what this is about!
I asked someone’s opinion about something a few years ago and they said it was ‘nice’ – very vanilla answer.
I cannot think of one person I know that I describe as ‘nice’. It’s not that they’re not ‘nice’ but it’s a bit vanilla.
Why does everything have to be about extremes?
It’s good/bad intelligent/stupid passion/boring
We are a frustrating lot, aren’t we Nat? I know I’m not the only post that used this word, but maybe I can shed some light on where I’m coming from.
I DO get what your post is about. And I know that I have been guilty of thinking of relationships in extremes, as you described. I may not have made it clear in my post, but what I was hoping to illustrate was how I ONLY used to think in those two extremes, and I am now trying to de-construct that type of thinking, and open myself up to other, more healthy options.
I have been learning that there are many more options on the relationship menu than just exciting or boring.
Nat
Lots of us haven’t ever had a proper relationship and we don’t understand what emotional availability is or what healthy self-esteem is. As I said to my counsellor “I sort of understand it but I don’t really.” You tell us not to overrate intelligence so we immediately think – right, look for someone stupid. Don’t be blinded by looks. Okay, I’m going to pick a minger. Chemistry is not everything. Right, pick someone physically repulsive.
To be emotionally available, want a proper healthy relationship, and to recognise someone else who wants that is beyond us. I suggest that readers observe the good relationships of those around them family, friends, colleagues etc. If everyone you know is in a crap relationship, God help you. You really are moving in a circle of hell.
Natalie, I appreciate your questions regarding extremes and the confusion over “nice”. I’m with Grace and ICandobetter on this one. If you’ve never experienced a healthy relationship based on common core values, love, respect, commitment, and consistency, it is really difficult to imagine what that would feel like. Does it feel “nice”, whatever that is? If you’ve never witnessed a healthy relationship, you don’t know what it looks like. Is it “nice” whatever that is? I’ve not had a healthy relationship or witnessed one. Is all I’ve experienced is zsa zsa zsa poo! I remember precisely when I finally realized the ex mm was interested in me. He walked into the meeting and looked at me in that way. My knees buckled, my blood pressure must have jumped to over 200, who knows about my heart rate, my blood vessels contricted, and I about fainted because there was no oxygen going to my brain. Zsa Zsa Zsa Zu! Fast forward, I can identify with the posts of Rebeka and Natasha. If we had planned to do something and he couldn’t make it or I asked to do something and he couldn’t, my knees buckled, my blood pressure hit 200, heart rate sky rocketed, and there was no oxygen going to my brain as I screamed about always being last. Zsa Zsa Zsa POO! The common thread is the physiological responses are similar be it happy or be it angry. Zsa, Zsa, Zsa Zu or POO. Of course, since I’ve been writing the Unsent Letter to Daddy, I see vividly the similarities. When my dad would finally walk through the door, blah blah, blah. When my dad decided to be with his OW and didn’t walk through the door, blah, blah, blah. For me, when you describe a healthy relationship, it seems so foreign. Consistency, commitment, knowing what’s going to happen next, loving, respect, honesty huh? Since I have no experience with any of those things the only word that can describe it is “nice” and I mean that in the nicest way. As Icandobetter states: “I have been learning that there are many more options on the relationship menu than just exciting or boring”. For me, Natalie, you have been so inspirational in helping me to see that there may be something on the menu rather than spicy hot or hot mush. I love the descriptions of healthy dating, healthy relationships, and being healthy. Keep them coming. I just had no clue.
True story! “Nice” makes someone sound really one dimensional – like one of those cardboard cut-outs from the party supply store. I think sometimes you have to say, “This person has some great qualities, but I’m not hankering to date them.”, a sentiment which is perfectly okay! In the past, I would find it really frustrating if I met someone that had some good qualities/was available for a relationship, but I just wasn’t feeling it – it felt like I was depriving myself of a visit to the Decent Man Last Chance Saloon and then I’d say, “Well, I have no one to blame but myself, I’m not attracted to the ‘nice’ guys’. Until I fix that, whatever goes wrong is all my fault.” Fact is, not everyone you meet is going to be a potential match and it’s nothing to guilt yourself over just because they are decent!
When you think about it Nat – extremes are all around us almost conditioning us. Extreme sports – extreme this – extreme that – thrill seeking adventures – wow – flash – bang! The media is huge on sensationalism. We are surrounded by that and it is force feed that if you are not on the edge – you’re missing out on something. If its not wow- flash-bang then its just “nice” = vanilla = adequate = ordinary. So its not really all that surprising. I’ll take “nice” ummm ahhh cuddly over wow-flash-bang any day of the week.
I dunno, I think some are trying to say they didn’t get turned on ( Butterfly feelings ) by a “nice” guy or give em a chance? or that “nice” sometimes just an act and therefore not a turn on anyhow.
Everyone is just trying to sort things out I guess – I was sort of blond as a kid.
My last EUM was a very “nice” supportive friend for a long time, why I thought he must have been the one, I really thought I had it down for once since heck it wasn’t about looks or sex, for a change.
But he doesn’t want a relationship – So BAM I started to chase him, Then BAM all of the old pains of waiting for guys and trying to get them to love me emerged again, and they were not even “nice” blah blah. .. Leading me here.
It’s just easy for us to get off track as we are sorting things out I guess, and apologize for us all.
For love to take hold and grow, steadiness is needed that is right, and it’s hard to find, It’s hard to take a chance again esp if you were so sure before – how can you trust yourself to think such things? and should you ever think such things?
Now I’m getting off track by thinking: ” when should we or should we ever start thinking someone is the one anyhow?” Maybe the wedding day.. lol!
Natalie, Your post, as I see it, is about recognising the fact that passion that’s based on the unknown isn’t something you can have in a relationship based on trust, and other good qualities. Passion that gives me an upset/butterfly feeling is a warning sign. I can take care of my sexual needs. I can hire someone to give me a massage, fix the plumbing, etc. I cannot hire someone to be a true friend and companion. Dating someone who is possessing qualities I wish to have in my life and who shows they are capable of being in my life through consistency, etc. is not boring. They may not fit as we continue to get to know each other, but the excitement that comes with someone who jerks us around is a warning sign…a rollercoaster rider sign. Passion can come in many forms just as intensity of feeling in other arenas. The trick is deciphering what is good for you and letting go what is not. Conducting your life and relationships with integrity. You are trying to show and teach us signs of healthy relating. Many years ago I realised that I didn’t go for “nice” because I would have missed out on many of the experiences I have since had. I would have been married, probably had children, and found myself in a rut. That is how I saw stability in a relationship at one time. I now see it as supporting and caring for each other as we go on this roadtrip called life. How we come here to this site basically is a result of learning some bad habits and how we get out of it is taking a real good look and internalising new ways of being…the same way we learned the old stuff but with consciousness instead of simply sucking it in or going on luck.
It all goes back to values, respect, mutuality…sex without the caring attributes; or sex with someone who promptly exits til they want to “hit it” the next time is simply a rollercoaster and leaves you hungry. I don’t want nor need fallback men in my life…and I did have them before…and they did serve a purpose. But, I don’t need a fallback nor do I wish to be someone else’s fallback. It’s a conscious and well thought out decision. I am willing to own up to what I want and it took awhile to figure it out. But first I had to address my issues and dig deep. This is what your site does for me…among other things. Thanks Natalie.
Maybe she means he was a Nice Guy (TM)?
(The NG(TIM) attitude helps perpetuate the myth that women are unstoppably fated to love EU/AC guys.)
After years of chasing that feeling and finally “settling down” by being in a stable relationship, stability and security feel pretty weird every now and then. It’s like what a good friend of mine told me about being depressed – he realized that on some level, he was just being used to being in that state of mind, that any other state wasn’t normal for him. Some people can be so used to “chasing after” something, or even destroying a stable and long-term relationship, that they are not seeing the security when it does actually come.
amen! im there now! im in my first really good relationship since the EUM that brought me to this site. i spent too many years chasing and chasing that now that i am honestly safe… im more bothered and freaked out than when i knew i was being treated poorly. im so used to the “comfort” of my anxiety that i can’t let it go even when i have no actual cause to be anxious. im learning though. at least i know for certain now the type of feeling i won’t be running after again.
Natasha, your post was eye-opening for me. I, too, hold my breath anytime I sent a text or email asking my UAM to do anything…if he said, “No!” I’d be upset and beat myself up for even thinking I could ask such a thing. If he said, “Yes!” I was always surprised. Very telling of what I thought of myself vs. him.
Rebekah (very pretty name, btw!), it’s so true! When someone is rationing out crumbs to you, you end up like a pigeon swarming over to a breadcrumb in the park, hanging around waiting for another one. Of course, you don’t want to ask for the another crumb, or God forbid the whole loaf, because then you might get nothing. In my last hot mess of a relationship (classic yo-yo/boomerang), I made it clear that the crumbs weren’t going to do it for me anymore and you can guess what happened – cue disappearing act. Like Natalie, says we have to run far, far (I’m talking like outer space) away from people who basically say, “All on my terms, or nothing!”
Yes! Just last night I asked my EUM for a favor (a ride) and when he said yes my response was “no way!” Of course it was too good to be true and he didn’t answer his phone until he texted me at 3:30 am. (I had started low contact with my goal being to slowly taper off bc we share mutual friends and I’m scared to go all the way NC for fear of gossip and public drama.)
In a couselling session with one of my clients, we were discussing the feeling you get when you seek revenge on someone. Initially my client said it gave him a feeling of pleasure, then when asked to compare that feeling to the feeling of pleasure he gets when he gets a promotion, plays with his dog, etc. he decided they were very different sensations. When he thought about it in those terms, he said he no longer would classify the first feeling as pleasurable.
This was a revelation moment for me–when I think of the zsa zsa zu feeling alone, it seems wonderful, but the moment I compare it with how I feel when I hug my son or my best friend (people I truly love deeply and who deeply love me), it pales in comparison. That feeling is where the real money lies for me now.
Thanks for sharing this T. I think you’ve illustrated perfectly why it’s important to know what words mean and to also ensure that you’re bagging and tagging feelings correctly.
I tagged anxiety as excitement. Anxiety is anxiety. Excitement is something else entirely.
I also recognise that sometimes in our quest to differentiate our romantic relationships from others, we put up with stuff we wouldn’t under other circumstances and call it ‘love’ and ‘excitement’ and ‘passion’. When what differentiates your romantic relationships is feeling shit, you’ve got problems!
Yea
– I “loved” it when the ex would lie about me to his friends
-I got “excited” wondering the next time he would call me
-I was “passionate” about getting him to appreciate me for who I was.
-Doh!
-Doh!
-and Doh!
I definitely was looking for that feeling, that “high”. I’d be so excited then I never knew what, if anything, would happen next. Just today the EUM left me another “gift”. ???? It wasn’t anything bought but it’s the never knowing what he’s going to or even why. Who does that? I don’t give my ex-whatevers gifts or items. What the hell ever. Now I’m better tuned to if I feel that excitement, that thrill, that it better be a flare gun going off signaling GET THE HECK OUTTA THERE!!
Please tell me it wasn’t another piece of cake?
Ha! No cake. Wouldn’t that be a riot if it were more cake? It’s comical how you don’t speak to someone and he randomly leaves you gifts.
I can’t stand it anymore. I always always go for unavailable men. The last one I was friends with for years and never thought about hooking up until I fell for him. Outside of one mistake I had not had a man in my life for over 5 years. He ran as soon as I let him know I cared and I have been yo yoing in and out ever since. I tried no contact and I tried to just do the sex only thing thinking maybe I could get it out of my system, or maybe I thought I could win him over through sex, but I can’t. I know it is not really love but an emotional rollercoaster, an addiction. I find myself chasing I am so addicted to him. It is a sickness really, nothing more nothing less. He doesn’t care about me, not really. He is sick too, he chases woman and I chase him. I just can’t seem to let go. Sometimes I can’t eat or sleep. I am having a hard time focusing?? “I don’t understand” I was so together… I had my head on so straight… Now I am so sick… depressed. Messed up.. I have a good job, people say I am pretty, smart, funny… I love everyone? Well I did? But, not so much anymore… Now I hate the world! All because of this man that I fell for so deeply that I can’t seem to let go! I hate him and I love him… I am so so angry at him and at myself for being so messed up over this! I am always thinking about that feeling I had when we were friends, we were so close. Yes it is the excitement the rush the anticipation .He was sweet and treated me like I was special. Now I am just an option, a whore. It is disgusting that I jump no matter what. I am pathetic.
You are not pathetic! You’re a human being that had feelings for someone unavailable, so it didn’t work out and now you feel badly. You can’t change what’s happened, but you absolutely have the power to change what comes next. If he gets in contact, ignore him. If you feel the urge to text him, text a friend that makes you laugh instead. I was the queen of negative self talk and I know what you are going through, but life got so much better when I made it about what made me happy instead of beating myself up over a situation that was over and done. I say do whatever you can to distract yourself – for me, what worked was funny movies, hanging out with my girlfriends and tennis – sounds very cheesy, I know, but I’ll be damned if it didn’t work! *Hugs*
Lisa,
you are where many of us have been babe, please look after yourself, I feel your pain. Go back and read some of Nat’s older posts *hugs* don’t be so hard on yourself
Oh Lisa, I feel for you. Reading your words, I think a lot of us here know exactly how you feel. Its heartbreaking and it hurts. And that’s why many of us here relate this to getting off a drug. If you are not getting what you want and deserve, and you DO deserve a caring, loving man/relationship then its up to you to take responsiblity to do better for yourself. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps and give him the heave ho. He’s not a friend unfortunately, and its hard to let go of the good times I know. But if you want to make yourself available for a great, healthy, available man you have to have the strength to let go of the one who’s not. You can do it, one foot in front of the other. You just need to believe what everyone else sees in you… pretty, smart, funny and WAY better than some guy who doesn’t get it. Flush and move on if only to just work on yourself and be single so you can pick better guys in the future.
Thank you for this post. Just what I need to hear……again…..and again…….sigh.
Lisa, Please gift yourself with Natalie’s books: The No Contact Rule and Mr. Unavailable and the Fallback girl…PLEASE…I can’t tell you in strong enough terms how much those books MAY assist you. I say may because even though Natalie has written the road map YOU would have to do the work of following it. May it be your fortune to do so.
I agree with leisha. I’ve got the free mini guide to no contact and Mr. U and the FB girl. They’ve been very helpful and no, I’m not on commission. I didn’t buy the NC book as there wasn’t anyone I needed to see off, but I certainly would if I was in Lisa’s situation. The books put everything together so you can spend an evening/weekend reading and thinking. The blog’s really helpful but it’s not a substitute for the book, where you can really concentrate.
Lisa, Your beating yourself up so bad right now that is the worst part, It’s a phase to get past – NC is needed, don’t give up just like a diet sometimes we have to try it more than once, the only other alternative is to stay frustrated.
I am sure you and me let men know upfront when we are NOT going to have more with them right? So why do they need to be yes and no at the same time? To have us there just in case it’s a yes later, and how much later? Can we wait another year- 10 years? I mean guys can go on with all of that as long as we let them.
It’s worse when they used to be a friend I know, But he has a sickness/confusion about women in general if he suddenly see’s you as a whore.
Right now the most loving thing you could do is let him go, He has a lesson to learn if he ever really did see you as a real friend, and a human being.
When they refuse to give any real answers – Refuse to wait around for one, As far as we should be concerned with this sort of deal is it’s a NO even if they wont say it straight, For the simple fact we are wanting more than they do it’s already a NO for US anyhow.
I know exactly where you are coming from, re the rush and the excitement. I have been guilty of this, too – I attached “meaning” to the extreme attentiveness and passion that the guy brought, and then was “confused” when he would pull away and be MIA. I tried to rationalize it that he’s just a Mars and Venus, “rubber band man” who gets close, then snaps away, instead of a self serving user. And let’s admit, some guys are way over the top in the way they make us feel – and when you get that powerful of a rush off a guy, it IS addictive – and harder when few others have made you feel that way. Maybe they ARE in it – for that moment. But in terms of longevity it is all a grand illusion – as meaningful as doing a drug would be. I would just hope to say, just do what you can to be strong enough to say no and get away. I am doing this myself. I just told myself that, on balance, the excitement does not outweigh the torment or frustration or confusion or wondering or all the emotional baggage and discomfort that brings.
Do you know that I was making excuses for him to myself right up until I read the blog a few days ago about Unavailable Men. Then a light went off – Bingo! I had never even thought of him like that. More just “eccentric, charming, handsome artist type”, all sorts of BS to justify my continuing to see him, and this is over a long period of time. But it was all a contrived game on his end. He is a fisherman – and I can see he delighted in being able to reel me in whenever he wanted to. And he was good at it.
I am so glad I found this blog. I’ll be studying the postings for awhile to screw my head on right before I enter the scene again.
I have high standards for my friends – we’re mutually loyal, caring, respectful of each others views and time, consistent, there for each other, happy to see each other, responsive to each other. I wonder why I did not have the same standard for a man?
Lisa
Well, it may be cold comfort but he doesn’t see you as a whore. ACs take perverse pride in “not having to pay for it”. Though a business relationship with a prostitute would probably suit them right down to the ground.
As for the fizz (za za zu) that’s kept this going, I think it’s gone flat now. You may have even noticed that his sexual technique has deteriorated to wham bam and not even thank you.
You’re still wrapped up in what he’s thinking. Let me have a stab at it, based on his behaviour: “Lisa is cool. I get to have no strings sex with her and she’s happy with that. She knows the score. She knows I don’t want a proper relationship but neither does she. Otherwise she’d go off and meet one of those pathetic beta men who will settle for just one woman. Cos they can’t meet any others, ha ha. Wow, I’m so good at sex, women love me. I shouldn’t tie myself down to just one woman, that would be selfish. Lisa can’t resist me! She’s only human.” That’s him on a good day. On a bad day: “Lisa is so mad in love with me, she’ll do anything I want in bed. I’m gonna milk this for as long as it lasts. Now, what was that chick’s number from last night?”
Lisa, it’s time you set him straight. Kick him to the curb.
Spot on Grace!
All the feelings we feel through our EUM are so deep…..if its the fear he will cut us again out if his life or the fear he is is mad and we hurt his feelings or the fear we will get a mail where he writes again that we have no future together…..any feelings we felt with those men who we truely love is as intensive as the good feelings we had with them….like when they say we are so special or they would never leave us or when they make us laugh…..
Its the same part in our brains that are activated……..joy or pain……its the intensity…and therefor i guess its so hard to let go sometimes and think with your brain clearly.
But if we really wanna be loved for who we are and if we know our worth and we know we are worth those positive intensive feelings then we are going to heal and build self esteem.
Good luck
It’s obvious now–SO obvious now. But it took a whole lifetime of mediocre dating choices and a 20+ year marriage to an assclown to figure it out. Better late than never! Now that I am with a man who is healthy, loving, respectful,trustworthy, consistent and fully engaged–I realize that the hallmark of the EUM and assclowns is that they always keep you guessing. Somehow the need to “win” the whole heart of this type of man became the root of the emotional highs and lows. If a man was too interested, too obvious, too easy then he was not as desirable. Just like one had to struggle to curry dad’s favor–being loved had to be earned/won. The attraction to ACs is as much about one’s own broken priorities as it is about their broken nature. But I am living proof that one can eventually figure it out. And as for those zingy feelings that people equate with the most exciting passions–it has been my experience that those zingy feelings for the wrong guy become a prison when you hang on too long and value someone too highly who treats you badly. And that the zingy feelings come and stay when you are with a man who you respect above all others and feel gratitude that you have found one another.
Monique
“But I am living proof that one can eventually figure it out”.
My question for you and a few others on this site now in happy relationships is, when/how did you figure out that you figured it out? Did you work through issues and then seek out an EA partner, was it sudden “revelation”, or did you one day meet a man and it just clicked in a good way and made you realize you had finally put away all those things that had made you EU or attracted to EUM? I know it’s off topic here- but I’d love to hear (and live vicariously through!) people’s stories of when they “figured it out”. Because I’d sure love to figure it out myself.
I was thinking about this very subject today as I was talking to a friend about how I feel that long distance relationships are a big red flag. Many EUM’s seek out LDRs as a way of keeping someone hooked on a feeling but the distance that keeps them from having normal cadence in a relationship is inherently missing. Thus easy to keep crumbs doled out while the next feeling of excitement could be weeks if not months away… that keeps the other hooked in for much longer than if they were in the same city and hadn’t seen each other for weeks/months. And additonally it takes out the “what a jerk” issue since its not their fault they live so far away. I think LDRs are a very tricky way that many EUM use to get a za za zsu going and keep the facade for months if not longer. Getting hooked on the feeling as opposed to seeing the availablity of a person for what it is… not a great bet.
Spot on CC about LDR, funnily I told my ex on our first date/meeting that I wasn’t expecting anything except platonic as he lived far away and he seemed really hurt and upset by that!!! Well without going into too much detail he’s my ex now ha ha
I have just come to understand how the zsa zsa zu can become addictive and you can misread it as “love”. After being in a loving marriage for 11 years and knowing what deep, consistent love feels like,I was not prepared for the world of dating and the antics of AC’s. Lonliness and a long stretch of being on my own created ripe conditions for seeking out affection, which I got…what was missing was consisitency, consideration and the steadiness of knowing where you stand.
The longer you are out of a good relationship and more time you spend in the dating world…you can forget what the core ingredients are that keep a relationship strong. One man I dated was very affectionate and great in bed..but our values were not in line…and I knew it, but it was like I was addicted to the loving. When I was with him, my mind would often go back to my husband and how I felt safe and understood with him.The lovemaking with my husband was great…lots of zsa zsa zu moments.
I knew being with this man was not enough for me…it took me a 3 months to wean myself off from him…but I did it…today I am 4 months NC. I still sometimes think of him, but there is not the same strong pull…
Now that I have some distance, I am able to see the relationship with clearer eyes and much of his inconsistent behavior now makes sense…every so often I lightbulb goes on and another piece of the puzzle falls into place….but now I just notice the fleetiing thought and say
“Oh well, doesn’t matter, he’s someone elses problem now”.
I remember the last time I saw the exMM. When he invited me to lunch I was soooooo excited. After lunch I was still excited. I spent four days in his hometown by the end of it my excitement turned to pure fear, irrational thoughts and total anxiety. I had a meltdown!
I could no longer ignore what my intuition was telling me. I really thought I could deal with someone blowing hot and cold and being manipulative. I thought I could brush it off. I remember being in that hotel room in Florida sitting on the bed crying, hugging and comforting myself. My mind was screaming at me “I don’t want him make him go away.”
I look back at that incident and I recall the pure wickedness of one human manipulating a rejection or trying to reject me. Solely because I wouldn’t give him sex and it hurt his ego. Strangely, I didn’t feel the rejection he wanted me to feel.
There are times where I am ashamed of my reaction and meltdown in that room (it wasn’t in front of him thank God!) but it has lead to three great things. 1) It contributed towards my decision to go NC and that has paid off 2) I will not engage in dating unavailable types or types on the rebound. 3) I invest more energy into me.
I vow never to go on that rollercoaster again!
Thank you for the post. I am in hibernate mode now because I just had a difficult conversation with my EUM yesterday. I told him I was wanting more and that I was going to open myself up to other people. I am not as devastated as I thought. I made the decision because of what I needed for myself, which was not to be up his butt all the time and worrying about what he’s doing. He’s not the problem, I am. Still sorting it out. Thank you Natalie, you are so smart.
Funny my wife and I were talking about this very issue the other day, why some women claim to want a good man but end up with some that treats them like rubbish because he is “exciting” we concluded that for nice guys to stand a chance, they will have to have a dangerous and exciting side to them as well.
I disagree. We as humans all have inherently the ability to be dangerous, exciting/unpredictable, leave ’em guessing = not giving a damn about the individual = disconnected. I pray the nice guys seek on til they find the nice femmes that are available…not go the negative route … that would be inauthentic anyway…why not remain true to yourself and stop playing “change for others”? It takes a courageous person to remain true to oneself or to change oneself into a caring person who risks the hurt that comes with “relationship tryouts”…but it needn’t change one into a jackass.
Paul is right, take it from a ‘nice’ guy. Women want excitement, at least early on; just showing interest in them and being open and friendly yields terrible results. When it comes to getting a womans attention the guys with ‘flash’ always do better. Flash can be anything; an indifferent attitude, expensive clothes, being aggressive, a certain job, whatever.
jd
not true at all. neither of my brothers are flashy in the slightest and both of them are happily married with women that love them deeply. sure, flashy behaviour can pull in 100s of (shallow or EU) women for temporary kicks but you don’t want 100s of women do you? Just one.
If you do want 100s you’re probably reading the wrong blog.
I think after a while, I get so sick of the high and lows, the the za za zu, gets replaced with nerves, lack of sleep, and nausea. That and absolutely nothing to show for it; another failed “relationship”. I am being dead serious. Maybe that is the key IS to not feel the za za zu, but just a general feeling of calm and contentment? Maybe someday…….that will be my goal! First I need to work on MYSELF, the MM will be in town in a couple of weeks and wants to get together, I do not feel za za zu, but sick to my stomach, maybe this is a good sign that I am on my way to healing. But FIRST I need to make sure I practice NC this time.
Do you think some just settle though? Because they are afraid of being alone and need to be validated by being in a relationship? Then again I guess everyone has different interpretations of what the what the ‘ZZZ’ is for them (snooze or fireworks hehe)
I need sparks but not rollercoasters. Personality and independence, not clingy behaviour and five calls a day about what is for dinner. I don’t think everyone (most of us here) welcomes the crap that comes with Zsa Zsa Zu. I certainly don’t, although yes it creates good entertainment for my circle of friends, hell I even did a ‘single in the city’ radio spot because I had so much material! I can do without finding out the only one night stand you every had was with someone with a long term GF, having men bang on your door at 4am, sneaking around having secrets, replying to endless pointless text messages, cooking gourmet dinners for crumbs…the list goes on. My best friend wisely told me once after meeting her now husband “It’s not all about what’s in the shop window”, I agree but there are so many people browsing and putting you on lay-by ou there it’s hard to tell the difference! Thanks to Nat though I do now finally acknowledge that having a connection and chemistry is not enough to be hang in there. My EUM said to me after a few drinks one night three months in to seeing each other “You are like me aren’t you….you get too close and then cut people off” four years later, neither is anywhere different how depressing, and he never truely le me into his life nor was he in mine (although I would of let him) But he played his cards like a master dipping in and out, because I remembered the ‘amazing’ moments, good times, had him on a pedastal and thought one day he would come to his senses and realise how effing awesome I was. Gawwwwwwd, sad.
Crystal, The mm’s are obvious examples of those “settling”…many do fear to be alone…many don’t like each other…it is sad…
I just realized the mm comment may have been unclear: the cheating mm’s are obv. not in devoted to their wives mode…they aren’t what eam/w are about…cheating in the form of emotional or physical infidelity is definately not being with one’s spouse in a mutually healthy relationship of the type many of us (I can’t say all or even most because of some of the comments I’m beginning to see…) are looking for and building for ourselves and our potential or already present PARTNERS. Many do settle. Many do stay for all the wrong reasons (IMO)…but each to their own…
“I certainly don’t, although yes it creates good entertainment for my circle of friends, hell I even did a ‘single in the city’ radio spot because I had so much material!”
Oh my. This makes me laugh and cry all at once. I am ashamed to admit I repeatedly took chances with obvious EUM/AC/MM mainly to prove to myself and others how “cool” I was by playing with fire (=providing entertainment for so-called “friends”). Having been a bully target for almost a decade at school (and the victim of a very abusive mother), I believed there was something wrong with me just longing for a peaceful, rewarding life.
Half a year ago, I still used to think like that. Now the very idea makes me cry.
Seriously – in the words of the all powerful John Lennon – GIVE PEACE A CHANCE.
I continuously took actual anxiety in my relationships as excitement. After my nasty break up I had a few friends getting into relationships and/or married and I noticed something with these women – they were at PEACE. I noticed and other people must have too because in the wedding toasts to the brides this was constantly coming up. Finally Miss X was at peace – no scurrying about wondering – What’s he thinking? – or over analyzing every single move. Security and confidence.
Now I feel mature enough to recognize that PEACE is not BOREDOM. Not having butterflies should not provoke an automatic “NEXT!” out of you when you’re going on a date that’s going well with a guy that respects you.
I’ve now noticed it in myself and in the relationship I now find myself in. I’m just one big old peace sign. 🙂
Amen to the peace! Definitely a noticable shift internally and to external friends/family when you are at peace. No struggling and being able to say “next” comes quite easily and calmly. Realizing that butterflies do not make a great guy make and that they are just that… butterflies.
and please remember butterflies have a very short lifespan…bad for them b/c they are so beautiful…but they flit from flower to flower, move on fast, burn out quick though to them their lives may be incredibly satisfying…I’d rather a long lived parrot lol!
“I tagged anxiety as excitement.” Sounds familiar.
My za-za-zsu wasn’t some kind of hot in the pants feeling. It was like a switch being flipped. Like a sudden obsession. I knew each time from the outset it shouldn’t feel that way, but once the switch had been flipped, I would find it ‘impossible’ to stay away.
I have sought a kind of fatherly compassion. Some pity. Some understanding. Someone to say I was pretty. I didn’t know that what I was really doing was finding confused, scared guys trying to boost themselves by being around someone more confused and scared than they were. Too bad I couldn’t stay confused 24/7 – I’d have periods of emotional stability and suddenly get clear and be like, why am I with this guy? But then that would set off a wave of anxiety because I hadn’t figured out how to be the stable fatherly reliable presence to myself. And my male interactors would be like, hey, get back under my care/tutelage/help/thumb/bootheel!
The other day I finally went back to all those childhood and early university bad experiences and looked at them through the lens of “I picked that person.” Crazy! I never did the math. I always just figured I showed up somewhere and got picked on. But if I look at my early experiences, I would always get on the radar of the “alpha” guy in my environment, somehow equating “alpha” with the person who organized the games but also told everyone what to do and made people laugh uncomfortably with off-color or derisive jokes. I guess I wanted to be at the centre of the action.
The most intense physical thing I had for someone was about feeling hot because a guy who was totally objectifying would pick me. (Jerks who only go for looks would never pick ME, right? You would? Oh, THANK YOU.)
I’m now travelling and had the strange fortune yesterday to have four separate experiences of talking to different men one-on-one for a couple of hours. First was my former supervisor, who (surprise surprise!) I picked, and after comparing him to the three other guys (who I have met randomly through this work trip) I never realized how clearly I feel uncomfortable around my sup. These three other guys were kind, funny, not at all what would get on my radar if I hadn’t been forced to share car/accom/plane time with them.
Two of them have been so “nice”! Coming to the library where I am to check up, calling to check up. Nice!! I was like, wow, these guys are nice! I’m not used to it and – it doesn’t make me desperate to make them like me. Bizarre. How would one become interested in one of these guys? Because the only thing that comes to mind is suddenly starting to worry about how to make them like me ‘like that.’
O goodness…the men are acting like you are a human first…treating you with respect, care, kindness…not coming on to you at the get go and thus no ZING…sheesh…this is the type of situation that could actually grow into something worthwhile…not coming on in a sex/predator fashion must feel odd huh? Like you aren’t appealing to them? O I think they are/were being gentlemen…something to ponder on and see if that comfort is so uncomfortable because it is so unusual for you…I don’t think that they would be approaching you at all if there wasn’t some type of attraction…it’s just that the way they go about it leaves you dumbfounded…
Many men want their partners to be friends as well…besides there are only males/females in the world…starting as friendly and helpful and kind is a great way to begin ANY association and by being friendly to a stranger, as they were, they sought to make you feel more at ease in a strange place. They have probably been in similar situations, have female friends and relatives who have, and are acting as they hope someone would to those they care for as well as hopefully some would do for them…Just my 2cents.
We do need to develop the yin/yang, father/mother, care for and nourish ourselves aspects in order to do right by ourselves. You are doing so much work Magnolia. It’s obviously very intense. Have you ever read “women who run with the wolves”? I think what you are reaching for and coming to grips with is very powerful…
Great book Leisha. I have it and read it periodically. It has a lot of powerful insight about being authentic and strong and letting go of ‘fairytales’.
Sza sza za feelings are similar to if not the same as addiction. I have an addictive personality and when I fall for “that guy”. The one that gives me a rush, anxiety, excitement whatever “that” is, I end up chasing, I chase him like it is a drug. I make promises to myself to not do it again. I try the no contact rule, but then it happens? I take one sip of him and I am off to the races again. That is why no contact works. It is like not taking the first drink? But the problem does lie in that if I don’t change myself it is like going from scotch to beer to wine. I get the same result just a different flavor. That’s also why I go to ala-none because the men in my life, the sex, the sand castles in the clouds are all the same. It is me that needs to change. It is me that needs to love myself and learn to feel okay with vanilla!
O the things we can do with vanilla…add choco syrup, nuts, all kinds of interesting things to spice things up…it’s a great base to start with and tastes fine by itself…blends well with almost any flavor…I love vanilla: french, old-fashioned make it yourself with fresh cream and condensed milk…good for you and tastes so mmmm….
That you recognise you get addicted is paramount to addressing it. Don’t chase. Recognise the feeling and work through it. One moment, one hour, one day at a time…it gets better as you realise YOU CAN DO THIS.
I like what I CAN DO BETTER said about there being a 3rd type of man, although in reality I think there are many types of men. What you see is a reflection of how you have requested to be treated. This is about respect. Respect is needed on both sides for a couple to fall in love. I think the EU men referred to a lot on this site, are men the woman in particular has not been able to set a boundary with. That is why some women get perplexed when they learn the guy who they thought was EU is involved seriously with another woman. They have failed to see that they are the common denominater, or how they have contributed to the situation. In my own case, I am sure there are some men out there who have labelled me with these terms, but the truth is that most people, men and women are decent human beings who are all looking for the same thing-Love and connection. But we all want someone who we can look up to and respect. Sometimes it takes a while to learn how you feel about someone. To date someone for a year, or more, or live with them and then discover that they are no longer right for you is not about being an AC, but about being able to say what is not right for you any longer. And it certainly doesnt mean they were EU and didnt have hope for the relationship from the get go. If you have healthy boundaries you will not blame men.
Laine
I largely agree but I would warn women in particular (cos we have a penchant for trying to get men to change) that setting boundaries does not make men step up. I wanted to believe that if I did x, y or z he would do a, b and c. I bought all the books to figure it out (whci ended up in a skip by the way). No. They are who they are. If a man is outright direspecting you, standing up to him only has a temporary effect at best.
As for the mythical “next woman he commits to” that’s a trap. It’s like saying “she’s better than me. “. She’s not. If he changes it’s only because he’s ready to. Maybe, finally, he realises that a new girlfriend every two years isn’t fufilling and he had better do something different. Then I concede the next girl he will treat with more respect. Otherwise setting boundaries is ineffective in changing behaviour. Boundaries are our get-out moment, not for telling them what to do. We’re not training dogs here. Plus we don’t know the full story of their new relationship. And if we do, it begs the question “why are we so interested in our ex’s love life?” His life and what he does and who he has sex with, marries or has babies with has got NOTHING to do with me. The boundary we really need to draw is the recognition that we are Separate.
It’s true that relationship fail without anyone being AC/EU. People very often misunderstand Nat. She’s NOT saying that every failed relationship is down to EU or that every man who dumps is an AC. She’s particularly posted on that . However, a string of go nowhere relationships (yep even ones that last a year or more), a pattern of consantly being on the receiving end of crap, exes in and out like the okey kokey – someone’e being EU. The man. Or the woman. Or likely both of them.
Your last point I like very much. It’s not about blaming men. Or women for that matter. Whining, complaining and even downright hatred re the opposite sex (man or woman) depresses me profroundly. I’m very lucky to have two lovely, consistent, kind, funny, dependable, thoughtful and even heroic brothers to keep me grounded.
With respect Grace I did not mention setting boundaries as a way to make men step up. Personal boundaries ensure an individuals needs are met. If someone disrespects a boundary you then exercise the right to walk away. If you say you have a boundary and when it is violated, you accept the violation, then you do not have a boundary at all. This is being manipulative.
Its very telling when you talk of the “mythical next woman” and conclude that if she is treated with respect it is “because he has decided to change” . You are giving all the responsibility and power over to him, and not accepting your role in the dynamic, or her for that matter. In short you are still blaming him. No human being is better or worse than any other but this thinking will keep you trapped in an endless cycle of not self reflecting why men do not commit to one particular woman.
I understand what nat is saying perfectly and I love her articles and comments. I also think that labels such as EU and AC may take away from self reflection in some cases as not everyone who is unable to form a committed partnership is EU, but its less painful to hide behind the smokescreen failing to identify their unattractive behaviours that repel the opposite sex…clingy, needy, manipulative etc…
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent – Eleanor Roosevelt
Laine,
I’m not sure, but are you new to this site? There are so many articles Natalie has written that encourage us women to take the focus off these men and put it onto ourselves.
I see what you are saying, in that a relationship DYNAMIC is made up of two people. But someone’s treatment of another human being is their OWN responsiblity. And someone ALLOWING bad treatment is their own responsibility.
I would be interested to hear your thoughts about a person who has the capacity for respect for one person, but then chooses NOT to respect someone else, simply because they can get away with it. To be so inconsistent with one’s treatment of people gives the person no responsibility for their behavior. And these people do exist, which is why it is important for us to have boundaries.
However, there are actually people out there who do not compartmentalize their treatment of people in this way, and when they come across someone who has no boundaries, they still can choose not to take advantage. As Nat once illustrated, just because someone forgot to lock their front door, does that make it OK to go into their house and steal?
You say Grace’s comments give all the power over to the man, which I am not reading it that way at all. But your comments make it sound as if it is all up to the woman, as to how a man chooses to behave.
Ladies and in particular Laine, all I know is that at no point and I literally mean at no point, have I ever said 1) that everyone who is unable to commit to a relationship is unavailable or 2) written anything that puts all the blame on the other party.
If someone decides they’re not interested/want out/they don’t want to increase the level of commitment and opts out and doesn’t seek to then have a shag, ego stroke, a shoulder to lean on and basically a relationship without the commitment that’s a different thing.
This whole site originates from and is based on self-reflection and while some people will dodge that self-reflection bullet, many don’t, and *I* certainly don’t.
Debate all you want as long as it is on topic to the subject of this post and please be careful of representing things that I’ve written as something that they’re not.
NML- at no point in my comments was I suggesting that your articles about those unable to commit to a relationship were always unavailable, nor was I suggesting your written articles put the blame on the other party. My comments were not directed to you at all. I was merely responding to Grace’s comments.
Laine, when it comes to a man’s actions…all of the responsibility and power is his. It all belongs to him and only him. How we respond to those actions is our responsibility and where our power lies. Saying that “he decided to change” is not blaming him or giving the next woman power, it’s just acknowledging the fact that we as women cannot make a man change or “act better,” only he can, and he will only do this if he wanted to. I understand that we as women need to self-reflect and work on ourselves, but that does not mean we should be taking responsibility and power for a man’s actions. That’s not our burden to carry.
Wise words, well said 🙂
Laine
What can I say, I used to believe the same thing. I was so careful to be unclingy, not that one of my (few decent) boyfriends complained he wasn’t getting any support and couldn’t tell if I cared about him. I LOVED being in LDRs cos I had as much space as I needed. I took pride in not being needy and never bothering with what they were doing or who they were with. They’d want me to meet their families and friends, I didn’t care.
I think people often write us off as clingy, needy manipulators. You might think that from reading these posts but, ah, that it was so simple! And, by the way, I WAS the next girl. Bought a flat with one man, cohabited with another. Even married one. Their exes might have thought I’d hit the jackpot.
Er, no.
You know what, if you’re a manipulative, clingy, needy girl and it makes you happy, go for it. Some guys like that. They roll their eyes, complain about “her indoors” but love having the excuse to go home early or his girlfriend will blow a gasket. It’s giving a man too much power to stew about his next girlfriend and try to copy what she’s done to keep him. He’s gone, history, forget it. I. Don’t. Care.
It can be somewhat helpful to know what made the men tick but, ultimately, love yourself, accept yourself and if you’re a high maintenance gold-digging diva or the easygoing one-of-the-guys type, embrace it (if it’s authentically you).
By all means, I look back on my relationships and some of them may have been salvageable with the self-awareness I have now. But most of them, the ones that send us scurrying into Nat’s metaphorical arms are absolutely NOT. They’re a freakin disaster and I heartily recommend that women DON’T try to make it better and just run. A woman can adapt and maintain a a relationship for years with a man who doesn’t want to commit. Like Jerry Hall. God, she was the bomb in her day. Committed 20+ years to MJ and he just buggers off with a younger model!
Grace, I couldn’t agree more – boundaries aren’t there to try and get them to behave, they are there so we can bounce if we aren’t being respected. I’ve fallen into the trap of “Oh no! I don’t like what you’re doing. I’m going to set the boundary and therefor you will respect me.”, without acknowledging what the crappy behavior actually meant, which would be that I should opt out. His behavior wasn’t right, but I wasn’t taking the right actions in response to it. Laine, this is what we mean I think by putting all the blame on ourselves OR them. By another example, my ex-AC screwed around with my life for five years. Five years is ample, ample time to say, “Hmmm, I’m not interested in progressing with her.” and ample time for me to say, “This situation is never going to work.” Was he lying/future faking etc. because of any flaws in me specifically? Nope, that’s just who he was and I was enabling it. I have some insecurity issues that I’ve done a lot of work on (in my case, being involved with an AC was the kick in the pants I needed to reflect on myself) and I’m guessing he noticed, but do I believe that if I hadn’t had these issues it would have been a completely different relationship? No. Maybe he might have respected me a little more/treated me just a teeny bit better, but I personally would never want to be in a relationship with someone who’s behavior is conditional based on who they are involved with. I want to be with someone that treats everyone with respect, because that’s just who he is.
As the aforementioned ‘Christine’ that inspired this post, i want to say thanks to natalie, et al for all the great input. i used to wonder why dating was so complicated. it’s clear to me now that any difficulties i was encountering were pretty much there at my invitation. now that i’ve got the AC and EUM thing down pat, i’m going to be working on dating and understanding the normal man. hey natalie, how about a blog on First Date 101?
Grace,
What you wrote hit home for me. I am now seeking therapy for an issue that has been plaguing mr for two months. My ex EUM contacted me a while ago to tell me he’s been dating for the last 7 months an old friend of mine that used to know about everything in our relationship. She keeps writing in her blog how happy she is with him and how great he makes her feel. It makes me wonder what I did so wrong when I stood up for my rights the times he acted like a total jackass. NOTHING and I have to keep telling myself his behavior now has nothing to do with me. But it is a hard thing to process when I was willing to change my entire life and dreams for a guy who never wanted to marry (he said the same thing to his gf now and she’s willing to wait for him).
karina
why did he contact you to tell you that? talk about childish and selfish. if i was his girlfriend i’d be worried that i was dealing with a childish selfish man. who calls his ex to gloat.
An old friend of yours? Ah, in my irresponsible youth I may have dated a friend’s ex (thankfully the opportunity never arose). But now I wouldn’t touch that with a barge pole. You’re better off without the pair of them.
My counsellor called my troublesome exes “losers”. It shook me cos I had a) been trying to make em sound good and b) been blaming myself relentlessly for our breakups. When I looked surprised he said “Grace, I’m going to make that judgement call for you, because you’re incapable of doing it for yourself.”
Well, I am going to pass the favour onto you. He’s a loser. Good luck with the therapy. It helped me a lot especially coupled with Nat’s blog.
Thank you Grace,
It is taking a toll on me emotionally as far as comparing myself to her and why he’s so good to her and was such an ass with me. And yes, I don’t know why he felt the need to tell me about her, I would have preferred not to. I mean one of our mutual friends knows and he never told me, so why the ex EUM did is beyond me. And when I complained to him all he said was “that’s your own internal conflict, there’s nothing I can do about it.” Just bugs me to see how this girl is so giddy and happy with him knowing all he did to me. BUt I am looking foward to getting better and hopefully my depression over him won’t kick in again. Thanks for your words Grace, they are truly a saving grace!
The only reason he contacted you was to mess with your head. Don’t let him.
Karina
your friend, knowing your history with him and thus presumably knowing of his EU issues, still entered into a realtionship with him? Don’t envy her. It may sound mercenary, but if she went into this eyes open then he’s now HER mess and future heartbreak.
Well she is happy according to her. And I’m just looking to move one. After five years I thought I would be over him for good. I’ve dated other guys, but they’ve been either way too clingy (as in stalker type) or just EUM all over again. I just want to meet a nice man and have a good friendship then see what happens. Which is interesting because according to the new gf, that’s what she did with him. Something tells me she had an interest in him from the get go. But as you said, he’s HER mess now.
I was like “wow” when I read your post. I have had this need to have the Za Za Zu feeling all my dating life. I have chased more men then I care to admit. Always ending up in the same painful, lonely, rejected and depressed state. It didn’t matter that I “knew” they were unavailable from the start or found out later on, I still chased until they ran away or the pain was too unbearable to keep trying. And finally five years ago, I broke free and married a wonderful man. But that need inside only hibernated and was not gone really I think. My husband is very loving and kind and loves me dearly. But I have become bored in our marriage. The predictability and loving attention has became routine and I longed for excitement, which you termed is really anxiety. I started hanging out in a specific interest online community and met “him” He was not interested in anything in me really and only wanted to talk about our mutual interest. However, we became closer and begin to chat on msn and became “good friends”. But he was clearly unavailable from the start and is very self-centered. Our chats and emails were was always about him and not me, except for the initial hello politeness. But I became so obsessed with him and would rush to see if he was online or see if he would meet me in chat. I would be online until 1 or 2 in the morning and I neglected my husband. I looked for him online even at work and would be have butterflies when I saw he was online. I would be equally crushed when he ignored me or didn’t answer my emails to him for a long time or not at all. He said he loved me, but then he told others the same and I knew I was not really special to him. And his loving me was just his way of showing the world he loved everyone. Yet I craved him. I would never cheat on my husband in the “normal” sense, so our chats were never sexual in any way. But I had fantasies about him and wondered and maybe secretly hoped he would say something that made me think he was more interested than being just an online friend. We had a pretty bad falling out (my fault) and he ended the relationship. I am so depressed now, although I know it was for the better. I miss and have not had NC for two weeks although I have been thinking about sending him a Father’s Day card. I know it is the “rush” feeling that I crave. I am so angry at myself for this craziness I have. I agree…
Artemis
It’s easy for me to say this cos I’ve been celibate for nearly six years and joke that I’ve become asexual but – men aren’t the answer. You escaped from difficulties with men by marrying a different kind of man, now you’re not happy with him so you’ve pinned your hopes on cyberspace man. Maybe it’s not the men, maybe the dissatisfaction lies within yourself. No man can be Mr. Right until you’re right with yourself.
No Father’s Day card.
Hi Grace
Thanks for your advice. I think you are right. I am dissatisfied with myself and so I crave excitement from outside. My cyberman was fun and my fantasy of him was like a romantic novel hero. Whereas my husband is real and fallible. So, I will try very hard not to send him a Father’s Day card. But I have to confess it will be hard because I miss him. But Father’s Day is 2 weeks away, maybe by then I will be addiction free or at least stronger. Here’s hoping.
He’s not your father. Therefore, don’t give him a father’s day card.
Artemis…you may not have had sex with this guy but you were having an affair, an emotional affair. You said you married a wonderful man so maybe all the energy you put “chasing” that guy online you should put into your marriage. Some counselling might help too. Stay off line. Good luck.
Artemis, One person cannot be everything…shouldn’t be…you admit you have a wonderful husband but you are bored…boredom is your problem not your husband…a relationship needs to be fed; your interests need to be fed as well…when you feed yourself with activities and interests based on new accomplishments and skills then you are less likely to seek excitement in another person the quite frankly may be putting your marriage in serious danger as it is emotional infidelity…that’s the unhealthy zzz…ruts are so easy to get into…when you find interests that feed your soul again you will bring that zest into your marriage…if you are truly unhappy in your marriage then it is best for you both to exit the association…but you have been playing with fire that is so common now…help yourself and your husband before you burn your house down…counseling perhaps? I think you may rapidly becoming EU yourself…take care
Artemis,
You’re having what’s known as an emotional affair. Trust me when I say this you’ll only end up hurting yourself and ultimately your family if you continue to obsess over this man.
Come clean to your husband, tell him you’re not happy, ask to go to couples counselling. Get rid of the negativity.
Stay strong!
Artemis,
Some years back I used to spend a lot of time in those elusive online chats talking to people on a monitor. I “met” one man in particular, not ever in person, but we chatted in emails and instant messenger. He was in the military, so he said and rarely emailed me. I would stay up until the early morning hours waiting in anticipation if he’d come on. Sometimes he’d sign off and tell me he’d come back and never would. Or say he’d call me but did not. I think about all the time I spent on this person that did not exist and how obsessed I was with him and I cringe that I put myself through that. It was miserable. For him I was just someone he could use any which way, to pass time chatting up on the internet and put me aside when he was through. And I just waited. And waited.
Yeah he said he’d see me. But that never happened. It went into us talking once maybe every six months until he finally disappeared. I was dating someone in real life at the time and that relationship was a mess. I was looking for that thrill. Even though 9 times out of 10 it was pure heartache. For me it was a total waste of time and energy as I look back on it now. I am so glad I do not go to chat rooms or talk on instant messenger anymore either. It’s bad enough there are emails. It is painful getting yourself wrapped up on this roller coaster (that is what it is) with someone you don’t even know, but only fantasize about in your head.
Re: ‘It is painful getting yourself wrapped up on this roller coaster (that is what it is) with someone you don’t even know, but only fantasize about in your head.’
It certainly is, and I have done exactly that, more than once, though it was some time ago…
However, your comment also struck me because just in the past few days I have realized one of the big causes of the dysfunctional dynamic my guy and I are in (we are possibly -ok, probably- both EU on some level):
We had a wild and fun fling in our early 20s, that was 14 years ago. It was slightly obsessive, but brief as I lived somewhere else and was just back home for the summer. Suddenly now I’m back here in this tiny town and things start up again.
He was the initiator, again, but he was so sure in the beginning, and then cooled down more and more over time. But he won’t let me go. This confused me at first, but I’ve since realized – he’s kind of a romantic, in the sense that he puts people on pedestals, is idealistic.
We have been involved off and on for around 6 months now – with a lot of “off” time initiated mostly by me, but it’s mutual I think. I have been so confused. I’ve gotten this subtle sense that I am disappointing him, he is always observing and seemingly judging me, I feel stressed out and anxious around him.
A couple days ago I finally realized that he probably had idealized the concept of “me” to the Nth degree during all the time that had passed. I was ‘the one that got away’. There’s no way on Earth the real me (or anyone else, for that matter) could ever live up to these lofty ideal expectations he had of me.
It’s disappointing. And I can’t really be upset at him, because he is suffering too, unaware that he created his own misery. But I can’t keep this up. Now that I have become aware that I am miserable, and based on the cause, I don’t see any way of fixing it.
He has never even really tried to get to know me, because I guess in his mind he thought he knew everything about me by making it up. And for my part, I have felt confused that this guy who seems so into me, doesn’t seem to really ‘get me’, yet he claims that he does.
He doesn’t.
And even though I am a constant disappointment to him, he doesn’t dump me, he just marginalizes me, wanting to keep me in his life a little bit so he doesn’t have to let go of that wonderful image he has…
danadana: Don’t worry so much about what might be “wrong” with you, because this sounds a lot like Natalie’s “Trap of the Returning Childhood Sweetheart” (you can find her posts by using “Search”). I think this guy isn’t healthy for you, and it’s probably up to you to end the relationship, because as you’ve mentioned yourself, he probably won’t do it.
I’m sorry if I am missing something in your post but why a Father’s Day Card he is not your dad ?? It seems strange to me and an excuse to start things back up after they ended, I would look at the issues in your marriage it is a slippery slope to say you would never cheat on your husband but you are already on the slide and when on the slide it doesn’t take much to find yourself where you don’t want to be. I hope you can work it out .
I was going to send a Father’s day card because we would talk about his children that he loved very much. He is a single dad raising two children and he loved children like I do. And I know of course (stupidly) that I hoped he would think of me and miss me.
Hmm
I’m detecting a theme as I read these posts. We think that a proper committed relationship is boring and only possible with bland “nice” people with zero personality, no backbone and sexually repulsive. HELLO! Maybe that’s why we don’t want a proper relationship! That’s why we pursue people who can’t give it to us. Nat, I think I get it!
Natalie and ladies and gents,
Tomorrow is the one year anniversary of a really sad event in the ex mm’s life. Is there any way to acknowledge that I remember? This isn’t about zzz.
And the motivation underlying my question is NOT to become the OW again. He’s made it clear, any time I’m willing to hit the reset button and settle for crumbs, I can do that without any pretense.
Runner: one word: NO NO NO NO repeat 1000 times…he knows you remember…say prayers if that helps you…who knows it may even help him; can’t hurt! Stay NC and that includes this and any other stuff until you know you are “off” him…good luck
Runnergirl, you’re in danger girl. Leave it be. You and he are not friends or a couple and you both need to learn to respect boundaries. There will always be reasons to get in touch if you have a think and conjure one up but it doesn’t mean you *have* to. This man doesn’t take you seriously and truth be told, neither do you. You go in there again and while you may think you’re be kind, you’ll yet again communicate that you’re an option. A man like that doesn’t communicate that you’re free to pick up whenever you feel like it unless he believes you’ll always be a woman that *will*. I also note that whatever this awful thing is has made no difference to his attitude since. There are lesser people who’d think ‘wow, this awful thing has happened. I think I’ll stop shagging around on my wife and being a deceitful penis and appreciate what I do have’
runnergirl, I suspect, that you are feeling something very very uncomfortable, and want to relieve that feeling by sending him a card. Whatever that feeling is, dive into it. Go very very deep into it, feel it all the way through. There is always power to be reclaimed in those impulses, and my experience is when I stick it out and feel the feeling all the way through, my self-esteem rises, my trust in myself builds, and there is a spaciousness inside…a feeling of ‘essence’, that arises when I really dive into a feeling. It isn’t comfortable…and when I went NC back in November, I cannot tell you how many times I curled up on the floor, screaming into a pillow, feeling that awful feeling…and now I’m beyond NC and just living my life, and feel so AMAZING that I was able to give myself that gift. I realized if I can be tenacious and determined enough to flog a dead love-donkey for years…I can use that tenacity and determination for my benefit instead. You have just got to get clear on, what is is that you REALLY think you want when you want to contact him.
Runner
No. He’s got his wife and his family, it’s their job to remember.
Im glad you posted this Runnergirl and I hope it will be easy for you not to contact him.
What NML said to you I can take on board too, I especially needed reminding that any communication with exeum screams hello Im still an option. He has recently been in touch saying he is down in the dumps and he has an event on tomorrow that has made me tempted to reply to his text that I hope his event goes well and helps give him a lift. But I will sit on my hands tomorrow and leave it be.
Also what you said up above Runnergirl about how you can now see how it was all about him and how selfish he was etc. this helped me see the same thing about my exeum and even his recent text was all about him and there was not one word about how he hoped I was doing well or how are you so thank you and for posting and your honesty they have helped me I hope you can stay out of the fire, because it burns and hurts.
Natalie, Sunshine, Leisha, Grace, and Tulipa,
Natalie your words, “Runner You’re in Danger Girl”, kept ringing in my head when I was thinking about it. Thank you so much for responding. Ouch…I don’t take myself seriously and neither does he. Oh, I’ll be working on that, that and the fact I do NOT want to communicate that I’m an option. Sheesh, of course that is precisely what I would be communicating. The reason why he thinks he can simply hit the reset button is because everytime I got pissed and broke it off, we started right back up again the next day. Sunshine, thank you for your suggestion. I’ll take a long hike, curl up, and dive into why I’m still not taking myself seriously and still wanting to communicate FBG. You are so right. I spent two years expending tremendous energy flogging the dead donkey, I’ll use some of that tenacity and determination for my benefit. Of course Grace, I forgot about the fact he has a wife and family to comfort and to comfort him. It’s amazing how quickly I can forget about his wife. Thank you for that.
Tulipa, I guess you figured out from everyone’s responses to me, what you shouldn’t do? Let’s sit on our hands today. If there is one thing I don’t want to be is an option and I’m sure you don’t either. I’m glad my post and the responses helped you. They are selfish but what’s worse is for us to feed their selfish egos. It is a hard habit to break. I’ll keep my hands out of the fire. You do to, k?
Thank you so much.
“There are lesser people who’d think ‘wow, this awful thing has happened. I think I’ll stop shagging around on my wife and being a deceitful penis and appreciate what I do have’”
Natalie, that goes for me too. You’d think I would have stopped shagging around with the deceitful penis as well. I think I was hankerin for a feeling.
Hi runner,
Sounds like you’ve overcome the impulse. I like the suggestion that you go deep into the feeling.
I have been there where it feels like “no matter what has happened between us, there is a level of we’re all in this together that I will always honor, ie. i am the one who remembers with you the anniversary of your mother’s death, your brother’s suicide, your daughter’s murder, your own rape, etc.” Let me know if I’m projecting here.
It’s like you know there is a pain so deep that you can’t imagine that someone you’ve shared it with would ever leave you: and you want to make sure you never would leave someone who has shared that degree of their pain with you.
But the way he has treated you, runner, suggests that even if he has had pain in his life, he doesn’t know how to deal with it in a way that doesn’t hurt other people – ie. he uses other people to meet his emotional needs. You being there for him at this anniversary time will prevent him from ever seeing that.
If you really want to help him, take care of yourself, figure out what pain in you feels a sense of wanting to connect with him at this moment, and let him feel his feelings and take them to appropriate places for support.
I’m saying this just as much to myself as to you, runner, as I had my zsa zsa switch flipped last night and am like, holy poo. I’ll write separately about it below.
Fortitude and tenderness!!
I woke up this morning and thinking of that sending that silly text filled my mind. So I thought this is it an opportunity to choose myself and stand behind my decesion to carry on no contact.
A few things helped me
1. Getting rid of the text was silly to keep it, it means nothing a fishing text really that in turn means his number is gone too.
2. I said about 60 times I am not an option I deserve better
3. I got busy doing other stuff
4. I re read all the good advice on here and reminded myself it is about me now not him
5.I thought of the other people on here and how we are cheering each other on and hoping we can all cross the line unscathed.
6. I allowed myself to think of his past behaviour even though I participated in it it still hurt ending my denial about that.
7. I don’t want to start a poster collection of him.
Hi everyone. Not been here for a while and haven’t been keeping up… hope you are all doing well. I think the butterflies thing is just as Nat says – it’s more akin to anxiety. Especially if we still feel the butterflies after we have been “going out” with the guy for a while.
On the first dates it is the anxiety of not knowing how it will go… if it will lead to something or if it will turn out to be a disaster… but after a while – months or years if we are still getting butterflies it’s not a good sign because it’s no longer anything like the excitement of getting to know what will happen between you, it’s just plain anxiety because we have figured out that we are not emotionally safe with this person; that he could (and will) let us down or disappear or start running cold at any minute.
We simply confuse the feeling of anxiousness about the whole ‘relationship’ with excitement, and the more anxious we become the more desperate we get for the crumbs he might throw at us and the more “exciting” each crumb becomes until (as Nat has said) a crumb from him equals a feast in the desert for us!
It’s a vicious cycle. It’s an emotional rollercoaster ride, and if you stay on it long enough you just get sick, very sick, your emotions are topsy-turvy and you forget which way is up. If it’s the zsa zsa zsu (is that the right word?!) we are looking for these EU types have got it for you in bucketloads; you can roller coaster with these Buzz Lightyears all the way to infinity and beyond. But eventually what you used to recognise as excitement is just the endless pain, frustration and anxiety of being pissed around and never getting anything real or anything safe. It’s like walking an emotional tightrope – exciting or nerve wracking?
Sooner or later you just want someone you can trust who has some respect for you, values you and is concerned for you emotional welfare.
Thanks.
Ah Fearless, I’ve thought of you often over the past while. One of my birds who flew the nest! I hope you’re keeping well and as always, you still give great comment. Infinity and beyond indeed!
and doesn’t she fly well!
Hi Fearless,
I’ve missed you. You were one of the first who responded when I was going through the first few days of NC when the withdrawl symptoms were at their worst. Thank you. I hope you’ve been doing well.
I’ll be looking at those butterfly feeelings with a different perspective, particularly if they last for years, god forbid should I be in that circumstance again. That’s a great way to look at it. No more Buzz Lightyears for me. You are very funny. Welcome back. Infinity and beyond!
Aw… thanks runnergirl (and Nat); I’m doing okay. I am still waiting for my emotions to catch up with my head but am definitely not the same mug I used to be… even if I did fall off the wagon, very briefly, about a month ago – or more precisely what i did was swing one tentative little leg out of the wagon, which the nice EU man stroked in the most affectionate way for about five minutes before he kicked me in the shin (I speak metaphorically!), So I gave as good as I got and then quickly yanked my leg back in the wagon before he got a chance to do me more damage. They do not change. Same shit. It was good in some ways to see him in action with my new enlightened head on (thanks to Natalie)… once you have woken up to the true agenda and the shady motivations of these EU people, once you know their language and their currency so to speak, they have nowhere to hide really. And, likewise, neither do I, as I have learned so much about myself too and I think for the first time in my life I really see that I am supposed to expect the same as any other woman (and not just theoretically, but really and truly!)
To stick to topic though (ooops – don’t want to be in trouble on my first day back!)… I think all the zsa zsa zu in the world doesn’t make up for the emotional pummelling that comes with it…
I liked this post because I have always wondered why I trampled over all the decent blokes to get to the zoomer in the corner! It was the zsa zsa zu!! Now I know it was the thrill of trying to get a guy I was interested in to return me the favour… the ones who already were interested did not present any kind of a challenge – so that was boring – and if they were interested in me without me having to try then they must be too easily pleased and so I would wonder then if maybe I could do better (I think all of this was unconscious at the time).
Now that I think of it I was pretty dismissive to some probably perfectly lovely guys who must have thought I was so up myself! They were probably right!
Fearless, sorry to hear your one little leg got kicked in the shin. At least it was only one leg this time. Was it with the same EU/AC guy or a different one? Was there the zzz? Or just same old shit, different day?
Until I started reading Natalie’s stuff, I could never understand why I went for the toxic type in the corner either. I don’t know if there were any decent types because I was too busy dealing with the “mag-fucking-netic” (Magnolia’s great word) AC. Any guy that is going to make me compete for his attention used to be the precise guy for me…clearly daddy issues. Thrilling indeed!
As I think back, the few times I slithered off the wagon via telephone, there was no zzz. Just mostly him, talking about him which wasn’t as fascinating as it used to be. Good to have you back and here’s a bandaid for you. xxo
Fearless
Hey hun! You sound really well.
Re ZZZ – another point, it doesn’t have to be linked to crazy EU-ness. Sometimes it can be quite harmless. I had it at work. He reminded me of someone I used to know. But with my new sensible head I did nothing about it. He did nothing either and a few months down the line ,we’re just colleagues. We didn’t pursue it and IT WORE OFF! Just because someone makes you’re heart race, makes you feel giddy and swoony, you don’t have to do anything about it. That would be … chasing a feeling. The zzz is probably just hormones or they remind you of someone, It doesn’t = He’s the Love of My Life I’m Going to Pursue This Regardless of Whether It’s A Good Idea. In fact, I’ve Never Had a Good Idea When It Comes to Relationships so What can I do BUT Chase a Feeling?
Re Grace’scomment (aside: Hi to you too hun!! xx Am not 100% but am stronger now than ever before – insight is a wonderful thing!)
“The zzz is probably just hormones or they remind you of someone, It doesn’t = He’s the Love of My Life I’m Going to Pursue This Regardless of Whether It’s A Good Idea. In fact, I’ve Never Had a Good Idea When It Comes to Relationships so What can I do BUT Chase a Feeling?”
Totally with that comment from Grace! I think in my younger dating days I always assumed that if I got the zzz from a guy and decided I was in love with him then he simply had to be “the one” and I would pursue it like a dog with a bone. I think I had to realise the concept of “seperateness” and stop projecting my feelings on to the guy (although low self-esteem lies at the heart of this, I also think there’s a kind of self-centredness there as well).
I became, however, quite aware that this is what I was doing during my 20s and perhaps early 30s and so I decided I had to stop imagining that if I was getting the zzz from him then so must he be from me. I understood that I had to stop imagining I was owed something back and let them do what they liked … so they did!! And here I am… everyone doing what they like except for me! (it’s a good bit more complex than that, of course)
Runner – you are doing good! If you want to send a card, send one to yourself reminding yourself of what a wonderful woman you are! That would be better for you – and it is you who is pained and hurting here – not him.
Yes, it was the same EU (there’s no way on God’s earth there will EVER be another one of these guys thinking he can come sniffing around me!!) and no zzz was emanating from him! I think I was well past that anyway… he simply revealed himself for who he is and in some ways it was good for me to see him in live action rather than on reflection if you know what I mean.
I can see him quite clearly now – it’s like taking off a pair of steamed up glasses that you’ve been wearing for years and seeing his behaviour and your own situation with him in sharp focus. There is no hiding place now for either of us in this relationship – the light is shed.
I seriously wanna marry Art Garfunkel in this song I only have eyes for you http://youtu.be/Yrl3T8MaX8E : ( I just want to jump in there and run away with him, Where are you? I want this guy damn it, And No I don’t care if he has clown hair!
MaryC, leisha, Leigh and colororange, thank you! All your advice to me is so appreciated. I am bored because my husband works long hours , leaving me home alone a lot. And the internet became enticing.
colorange, you have felt what I have been going through. I waited for him many nights and cried when he didn’t come on. He never promised to meet me, as that would have freaked me out and validated I was having an “affair”. I preferred the online relationship, although I do wonder what I would have done if he wanted to take it to the next level. Anyway, I am trying. I don’t check his website or goggle for him anymore. But some nights I miss him so much, I think my heart would burst. But I’m taking one day at time.
Thank you all for your love and support. I needed it desperately.
Hi everyone, Nat 🙂 I haven’t been here in a while. I’ve been healing (6 months now) from the disaster of dating an EUM; however last night I met a woman who reminded me of the ex and was there ever “zsa zsa zu” (I’m bi). Everyone saw the sparks (we all met up a restaurant first) – but she acted like him, smiled like him, talked like him, even worked in a similar field. I think it was the echoes that snagged me. She ended up going home with someone else (not that I hook up), so she ended up not being someone I would want anyway (player). I was shaken up but not deeply so. I think I was more frightened by the similarities with the ex and my reaction to her.
Does NC include no text ” happy birthday ” ??? It seems a bit rude to ignore his birthday .
Fitness,
Although the occasion that evoked my question regarding breaking NC was not a happy b-day, I’m thinking the responses to my question may apply in your situation? Want to join me and Tulpia in sitting on our hands today? Just thinking about stroking his ego (which doesn’t need it) and communicating that I’m an option took the zzz right out of thinking about communicating with him and took the twitch out of my fingers. Ick, an option. That’s just not going to be me anymore.
It’s only a bit rude to ignore the birthday of a genuine, mutually respectful, caring friend. If a relationship has gotten to the unhealthy point of needing to initiate NC in the first place, then the simple act of NOT sending a birthday text isn’t rude at all.
If you choose to send the text, you will also be sending the message that the door is still open. If you choose not to send it, then you will be sending your self-esteem a much more positive message. I sincerely hope you choose you.
Yes, fitness. Only good friends who treat you well deserve your being there for their special days. See runnergirl’s impulse above. In this case, being “loving” to him is a harm to you. Stay NC.
Why do you care about being rude to this man? You have gone NC, which means that he was way more than just *rude* to you! Not to be harsh, but this kind of indicates that you still care more about what he thinks of you than you do for your own wellbeing.
I say this because i had this exact same dilemma a few months ago: ‘should i text happy b-day, would it be rude not to’. Then i thought the exact thing i wrote above and i didn’t text. I have bumped into him since and the fact that i didn’t text has made absolutely no difference. Same old crap. He’s still sniffing around, aaking if i’m single, do i want a drink, blah blah blah. Don’t waste your energy. Watch a film you love or read your favorite book, eat your fav dessert, do something for yourself. 🙂
He knows it’s his birthday. He doesn’t need you to remind him. Don’t do it to yourself. Take care (of yourself).
My zsa zsa switch has been flipped! What perfect timing! Yesterday I was my normal self, going about my business, this morning I am checking emails and reading his books and thinking about all that was said and is he trying to sleep with me, etc.
I am not in love. This isn’t love. My feelings about the exAC are not 100% resolved – this feeling does not mean I’m over that. But it is the feeling (albeit milder thanks to all the NC support and self-work) that has led me into relationships.
Last night the man who is hosting my visit here (I’m visiting the US) asked me to go for a drink after a dinner with some other writer/scholar-types.
He did some stuff that turns me “on,” as in, flips the switch: gave me enough history to make me curious about the sad events in his life, asked about my tender spots, and reacted in ways that suggest he wants to talk about my struggles, all in the context of a discussion of bravery and values and how to live one’s life. I guess when one is a poet and makes a career putting your emotional baggage into beautiful words, there is the hazard of not being able to go through the usual steps of self-disclosure with another person.
I mean, last night he told me his mother died when he was 12. This morning, I’m able to read his book, that makes his grief palpable. I was able to say I’ve experienced racial violence (I think I kept my own history sexual violence off the table) but now he can go and read my poems that probably make my fury and pain palpable (at least if the poems are any good! 🙂 )
I feel something like a magnetic force drawing me toward wanting to comfort him. Mag-fucking-netic!! And I saw things that this magnetic force wants me to ignore: his eyes drawn to the girls at the bar, the way he handled alcohol (reminded me of an alcoholic on best behaviour, not someone who doesn’t care).
Finally, I have enough stability to see the switch has been flipped and not go back to the source of the flipping to work it out. I can explore the feeling of being compelled to comfort (me? daddy?) on my own.
Oh dear Magnolia, you flipped my zzz switch too with your description of this guy and your interaction with him. I was painting my front door last night so I know it wasn’t me with him but it very well could have been! Thank you for sharing your zzz experience. Let me guess: alpha male, super intelligent, status, charming, sensitive, and he picked YOU. I know “mag-fucking-netic. I felt it just by reading your post. I love writers too.
I also recognized in your description how that “mag-fucking-netic” feeling masks the red flags like the rubber necking and the alcohol. That was a perfect description. Can you write us something about how it feels to be sitting there waiting for his attention to turn back to you while your waiting for his next words? There may be a whole new line of poetry here!
Looks like you may have dodged a cosmic bullet by recognizing that the zzz feeling is not love and that you do not have to return to a potential pain source to work through issues. Good for you. A giant hug!
Oh and welcome to the US. We have a ton of intelligent EU’s here, at least in my neck of the woods. I’ve either dated or married many of them.
Hi runner,
Ha. There is a classic short story, beloved of Canadian undergrad English students, called “The Painted Door” about a married woman and her ‘boring’ husband and another man who brings the zsa zsa zu!!
Are you in Kansas? I’m in Kansas.
I’m going for a walk with PoetHost tonight. (What? So? I can handle it.) Yeah, he’s handsome, charming, sensitive and intelligent, as for status I don’t know but we talked politics (he’s from a politico family and has done lots of organizing). He has been impressively take charge setting up a reading for me and a ten-person study group that will meet on my research topic while I’m here. Aye, aye, aye.
When I said something about having to remember to read and write about my dead poet for who he is, not who I want him to be, he said, “That’s like a relationship,” in a bit of a cynical tone. He mentioned a “last girlfriend” at one point. This guy is 49, same age as the exAC was when we met.
So I have another question about how much responsibility to take with guys: last night I started talking to the man I’m staying with, we’ll call him HouseHost, and within two hours he was telling me a LOT about himself (with me giving as much in return), then saying I can’t believe I’m telling you this, and by the end of the evening we both knew that each other participates in group therapy. I thought all was good. But then after I’d said good night, he knocks on my door, leans in looking concerned and says:
“I’m feeling super vulnerable right now and I just want to know, like, you have a boyfriend, right, and you’re not interested in me, right?” Me: “Um, the latter.” Him: “Cause I just want to be friends, and um, that macaroon, I’m going to stop with that shit because it’s inappropriate.” Me: “What?” Him: “I won’t bring you any more macaroons.” Me: “Okay.”
He closed the door and I am now feeling like I got “too personal, too quick” with two men in the space of two evenings. Both of them had brought me stuff, and I just assumed it was them being nice. I hope this is the appropriate time to tell myself I can’t control another person’s feelings. I didn’t do anything wrong to elicit that behaviour (ie. sudden freak-out that I might like them, coming in to say so), did I? In my own judgment I think not.
I’m trying to figure out if a boundary of mine has been…
Mag
I personally think all of that is a bit much for someone you’ve just met. He’s created some fake intimacy ( I say fake cos you two are little more than strangers) and then starts pulling back. In a confusing way. Mentions an ex. Ding, ding. You’re not even dating why mention it. And you’ve had a One Time in Band Camp Story.
I would be careful.
See – I’m guilty of all these things – mentioning an ex, a one-time-in-bandcamp story, too. Isn’t there a way to be “just friends” with someone and if it comes up, be able to talk about your personal life? I mean, this growth work IS what’s going on with me and is related to career choices. Why does having mentioned an ex, or the personal stuff, push everything into hyped-up territory? Really, if I’ve done something EU here just by allowing myself to have these conversations, I don’t get it – and still have stuff to figure out.
Magnolia, this is one of those unnecessarily weird situations. He’s the one who is sensitive and he’s the one who has come to you and made a comment. You don’t have to make his sensitivity or even his drama *your* sensitivity or your drama. What he has said isn’t about you – whatever he has going on with him, he’s obviously given it some thought and in retrospect decided that he needs to communicate ‘something’ and put a boundary in place. It’s no biggie. Let’s be real – you’ve only ‘known’ him two days so I’d give it a proportional response! It’s not like you’ve known each other 2 months or something and then he’s whipped this one up on you. He’s just some guy that gave you a macaroon that trying to turn it into the equivalent of giving you jewellery! Talk about OTT! I’d have been like “Hello! It’s just a frigging biscuit!” Only a guy could think that a macaroon could signal you thinking that he might want to get into your pants! Hilarious!
You didn’t read anything into it. Leave it at that. If he wants to turn this into an episode of Dynasty, leave him to it. If you remain calm and act like it’s no biggie, he’ll have to adjust his shoulder pads and calm down.
Natalie, you crack me up!! I always like to call unnecessary drama-stirring “Pulling An Alexis Carrington”. Thank you, thank you for the giggles – my Dad used to let me sneak Dynasty when my Mom was at her book club, knowing full well I would have no idea what was actually going on. Then the day came when we went to a birthday party and the host’s name was Blake and, you guessed it, I busted out the “BLAAAAAAAAAAAKE!”.
P.s. Magnolia, don’t go to any weddings in Moldavia with him.
Thanks Natalie! Today he was all like, I hope I didn’t make things weird, and I was like, not at all – hope we’re good, yeah, we’re good, etc. Usually I am on the side of being the more sensitive one, and not so long ago I probably would shit my pants before giving someone a macaroon, lest they see any sign of my liking them – which for me equates to vulnerability.
I know it’s kind of oxymoronic or ruining it to make a big deal out of not making something a big deal, but I SO didn’t make it into a big deal! 😛 Yay me.
Hey, a macaroon? Is that like cake? How come I never get macroons or cake? Glad things worked out for you Magnolia with the macroon guy. Natalie is sooooo good. Adjust his shoulder pads…I’m still laughing.
Hey –
Okay so he has brought a new bed into my room and bought me a bike helmet without asking. He’s coming on too strong, saying “we should be together” … he’s a big guy and I wonder now if part of my issue has been ignoring the opposite of the zsa zsa. I’m considering finding another place to stay … am slightly scared.
Magnolia, please look for another place. This might not be dangerous yet, but you obviously start feeling uncomfortable. Don’t panic, but trust your instincts.
Maybe you remember my first comments in here, when I was stuck with this AC who had just rented a room to me. At first, I was hesitant to just leave, because this meant he could keep the rent for an entire month. I decided to to it anyway after Natalie and some other commenters convinced me to do so. I’m so glad.
I wasn’t aware how uneasy I had really felt until I moved out. I think in the end, this experience was somewhat cathartic. I hope I will never allow anyone to treat me like that again. I also realised that money is much less important than I believed.
Magnolia, I would get another place pronto. It is possible he is a host because he gets to have situations such as yours…go girlfriend. Trust the discomfort. Get out of there.
In fact, yesterday he said, “I really like you … you’re not getting rid of me … change your number.” All in this joking tone. Sigh. It’s late and I hope I’m making more of this than it is.
This is like pink zone or something.
Magnolia,
Are you talking about HouseHost? You may want to consider looking around and having a Plan B…an option…just in case. A new bed and a bike helmet? “We should be together’?
EllyB and Runner … Thanks for being here.
I have left HouseHost’s place. I realized that I was getting tense in my bed worrying that he would walk into my room, as he had demonstrated a real problem understanding boundaries, much as he professed to want to make me comfortable. Basically I was too creeped out.
I didn’t decide to do this until PoetHost asked me, over a drink (him, me food only) about how things were with my sublet. Recounting the already numerous weird things made me realize that I did really want to leave, even if I didn’t want to cause drama or make anyone uncomfortable or basically suggest through my actions that someone is a creep.
PoetHost invited me to stay with “us.” It was the very first I’d heard that he lives with his girlfriend – practically MM. So he stood watch while I got my things out of the apartment and now I am here in their guest bedroom. I’m looking for a way to get out of here tomorrow.
This should be under Nat’s post about zones of discomfort. PH still exhibiting all same flags, tho. There is no zsa. No zsu. Drama, drama, I’m through.
Mag
Sorry this has happened to you. Trust your instincts. I’m sure lots of women have stuck around and got into trouble because they didn’t want to offend someone.
He’s a big boy (literally) and will be fine.
I was thinking about this situation this morning Magnolia and I’m glad you’ve taken action. What strikes me as so bizarre about this whole thing, is that this has all taken place in about 4-5 days? I know it’s a new place, an adventure etc etc but this is a very fast forwarded situation and at this rate you’ll manage 2 months drama in about a week. There are some weird boundary things taking place here and as someone who has in the past been in some very similar situations and was starring in her own episodes of Dynasty every day, I think you need to get uncomfortable and use these experiences to learn to manage the situation.
Now, while it’s not the popular thing to say, most guys don’t want to chit chat with you and talk about all manner of things without having some designs on getting into your knickers, even if you deny it or they deny it. If you felt zsa zsa zu, that in itself tells you that this wasn’t a strictly friendly situation. The fact that it’s taken all this time for him to say that he lives with his girlfriend suggests that whatever you two have been talking about it, it’s been surface and dodging. Who the frick forgets to mention they live with their girlfriend.
He’s not practically MM – he’s attached. All people that are involved with someone else whether it is a girlfriend/boyfriend or a wife/husband are attached. It would be no more appropriate if they *didn’t* live together. It’s you that needs to get clear about you and your boundaries. I would prioritise your comfort, your work, and your stay over getting too close to people that you need to help with your comfort and work. It’s not about not having fun and enjoying the honeymoon period of being away but I think you need to get back in the driving seat of your experience and not lay yourself open to ambiguous situations. That’s my two cents.
Yup – I hear you Nat. Taking my problem to PoetHost was not ideal.
I could have gotten out of the apartment on my own, in a cab, to a hotel room.
I’m glad I kept everything professional (ie. no allowing to pay for drinks, deflecting romance talk) with PoetHost, as the support he is providing now is appropriate to the role he signed up for as my official sponsor and I was able to look his gf in the eye – she seems lovely – and you never know, could be one of us here at BR one day. I’ve got an interview with a student coop tonight and if they approve me, they can take me in tomorrow so I don’t have to spend another night with PoetHost and his gf.
Writing this from the research library where I am about to start the day’s WORK. I’m having an awesome time reading crotchety poets’ old letters.
This experience is teaching me how costly drama is. I’ve lost focus and time to this BS. Onward.
Again, thankful for this site.
this story is getting more surreal and creepy…I see a script for a Lifetime channel movie…
Oh dear Magnolia. This sounds like a nightmare. I’m so sorry. I’m glad you got out of Househost’s house, a good lesson in trusting your gut. Now, you’ve got to get out of Poethost and GF’s house. I can’t believe he forgot to mention the GF while chatting you up, mixing drinks, and moonlit walks. What a creep.
“Now, while it’s not the popular thing to say, most guys don’t want to chit chat with you and talk about all manner of things without having some designs on getting into your knickers, even if you deny it or they deny it.” I need to remember this one too.
Good luck Magnolia. Once you get a new place to stay, you can focus on your work, and tell Poethost to go home and mix the GF a drink. What a jerk.
Mag
Not only am I English, I’m Chinese. We are reserved. I would need to know someone for about a year before I started talking about that stuff! So that’s just my take on it.
All that said, I’m not getting a good feeling. I detect confusion. That for me is when alarm bells start ringing. If it was just a chat in a bar, all well and good but there seems to be a disproportionate amount of bewilderment for that.
I agree with Nat below wholeheartedly. This does not have to be a big deal. Or any deal at all.
Wow, poets in Kansas are sure a busy lot! I’m not in Kansas but MIMS wishes she was. I’m on the other side of the continent. I could be totally off-base here and projecting so ignore anything that doesn’t resonate. You seem to be living Natalie’s last two articles.
Re HouseHost: Remember Natalie’s article on not being interested in someone? It sounds like you aren’t interested in HouseHost despite the info you’ve shared. Remember, when Natalie said: “If everyone isn’t my cup of tea, suffice to say I’m not everyone’s. The same goes for you.” It sounds like Househost may not be you’re cup of tea but you are somehow blaming yourself because of his apparent interest in you? As though you’ve somehow led him on by sharing info? Am I getting that right? Let me see if I can get the words to say what I mean: If we are not responsible for making somebody unavilable or uninterested because they come to the table that way, are we responsible for “making” somebody interested in us? If we can’t make them be uninterested, can we “make” them interested? If they are interested and we aren’t, is it our fault? Is this is the flipside of Natalie’s article?
Re PoetHost: I don’t know which of the FBG’s you most strongly identified with in Natalie’s book, but I’m the classic Miss Independent, Miss Self-Sufficent and I can hear her now. “I can handle it” were my favorite last words. That is precisely what I told my best girlfriend before diving in head first into an affair. Your Mr. PoetHost sounds exactly like my type which is why just your description triggered my zzz switch. I hope I’m not projecting too much here. Be careful on that walk. You’ve got the zzz thing going. You’ve mentioned a few red flags already like the rubber necking, alcohol, and now a former girlfriend, and he’s setting up a reading and a study group for you. I hope I didn’t overstep on this. I apologize if I did. Remember when you wanted me to be safe? I want the same for you.
Ms. MIMS will want to know how it goes!
Hi Runner –
Thanks so much for being there to respond and for your thoughts. Having seen red flags relationship-wise, what degree of friendship, if it can be friendship, is appropriate?
I made sure not to let him buy drinks the other night, even though he tried.
I certainly expected that this person and I might get to know each other a bit; I’m here for a month and it has taken quite a bit of coordination and effort on both our parts to get me here. When I say I can handle it – I AM knowing that I may not be able to if the zsa zsa doesn’t die down in the sober light of day.
For now, I’m going to try to do something similar as with HouseHost minor drama: ie. choose to feel the zsa zsa as my electric fence being pinged, and “making it into as big a deal or not as I want” by remaining conscious of the fact that I am not attracted to the idea of an LDR with someone two flights away, but am very into the idea of a solid ally and business connection down here in the big bad poetry world of the U.S. of A.
Strange territory.
Hugs!
Runnergirl: ““I can handle it” were my favorite last words.” Thank you so much for this! I need to remember this line whenever I feel tempted again… “I can handle it” was what I used to think when I dealt with my abusive parents, when I got involved with EU/ACs, whenever I hung out with bad but “cool” people or when I decided to ignore my employer’s bad actions…
The truth is, I cannot handle it. But I can avoid those people. I’m not a child anymore.
I’m trying to figure out if a boundary of mine has been crossed. I sort of think the only thing is feeling like I “made him feel I liked him” and now feeling like I did something wrong to make my HouseHost uncomfortable.
This sucks because I had promised myself not to get too intensely personal with my hosts, because I did with the woman last time (remember my posts about the woman I stayed with?) and it totally blew up!
“I am not attracted to the idea of an LDR with someone two flights away, but am very into the idea of a solid ally and business connection down here in the big bad poetry world of the U.S. of A.” I gottcha, totally. I don’t know much about the big bad poetry world in the US but I do know about being blinded by intelligence in the US. As long as the zzz thing is there, given all these posts, be on the alert.
“When I say I can handle it – I AM knowing that I may not be able to if the zsa zsa doesn’t die down in the sober light of day.” Yup, me too. I so totally relate. Just be really careful and safe. While you are on your walk with him, there could be stars and a semi-full moon which triggers my zzz switch everytime. Then, we only viewed the stars and the moon from cyberspace which just isn’t the same. Some zzz can’t derail your amazing recovery, can it? Be safe, have some fun, but come back to us.
Of course I don’t really know you and so I may be way out of line…don’t kiss him. Remember your electric fence.
I was just in the middle of writing in my journal how nice it was to have a “real” and intimate conversation with a guy without it getting weird – ie. without the zsa zsa zu – when HouseHost knocked on the door! Now it’s weird!
Thanks…heres the honest thing…cos I feel like you guys on the posts ..get it…and to be real my friends in ” real life ” are probably bored with the assclown novel…..this is why I tempted with happy birthday text…next Monday….get this 6.6.6o (.is his birth date ) …isn’t that the sign of the devil ???….anyways only been NC two weeks..has felt weird after 20 texts a day….BUT….I knew this guy as a friend…for two years …he had broken up with his wife who cheated on him….but not after she found out he had shagged her sister !!! …any ways one night he wakes up and just says …I’m out of here …leaves two small kids …doesn’t do relationships for two half year…..till he met me….honestly his flat is testimony to his EU …looks like a prison cell…oh and his old mum still does his laundry..( is that a red flag ?? As not seen ref to that anywhere ? ) anyway que _ME …..not let any other woman in for two half years….you are my future….no one gets me like you…have waited for skiin on skin…and chose not to try a prostitute……you are the one I needed….Que….cooking him meals ..booking amazing dates…at the 02 ..and fantastic michilin starred restaurants….which after the first few he always cancelled last min…due to his kids ( age 19 and 20 !!!! ) needing something ….they are not kids ( he is tho !!!!! ) ….then after …I needed you after my divorce to give me my confidence back…..I. sleep with him….can’t lie……was amaZing….best sex ever..then…he does houdini..WTF ???? Anyway after the disappearing act …..ransom texts….and I admit after not hearing for 6.days after sex…I did send a text asking why he ignoring me …and I was hurting….he text back how dare I accuse him of hurting me…and because I did he will never get friendly with a women ever again…I will stay celibate he said as sex just causes problems ……I want to ne alone…I seem to upset everyone meet (.this includes guys…as his business partner told him to get lost two days before he dumped me ) …..but he have me more excitement than I ever knew …thats why I struggling with not texting happy birthday on Monday……..all advice welcome x please ….cos I must have lost myself !!!!…. never been in this situation before ..because I’m nice…great job ..great friends….great kids….I thought I was sassy……now I…
After reading the longer version of the story, my answer is still the same. Do not send the birthday text. It’s clear that there is much to feel sorry for, but pity does not make for a healthy relationship, as it would only enable him to remain stuck in the place he is in. He sounds like he was having a pity party for one, and then it was a party for two when you joined him.
He is making excuses for his lack of participation in relationships and his own life, by blaming everyone around him, including you.
Don’t be like him and make excuses for breaking NC. You have made a healthy choice for you, and you have only confirmed that choice even more by telling more of the story.
FF
No birthday text. When a two-word text causes this must angst it must clearly not be sent.
Sorry….cut off…meant to.say….what do I to next
? If I send happy. Birthday text…..and I get no.response…I know it will hurt…..but won’t it tell me more and give me closure ???,Thats what I need …as I am fed up with him filling my thougjfife 24/7.. its ****ing exhausting having hi m fill my brain…..and that only happened after I had sex with the dipstick …who I held off for sex with for months and months…..Duh !!!!
Don’t send any text, who cares if its his birthday. As so many of us have said on this site and experienced ourselves they show us who they are and I’m sorry to say this guy has more red flags going for him than I’ve seen in awhile. Shagged his wife’s sister, leaves 2 small children, has his mom do his laundry. DON’T fall for his BS because that’s all it is.
Fitness freak,
Ditto MaryC. Try to see who it is, in reality, you are hankering after here. This guy is no zsa zsa zu and all blah blah bullsh*t. He’s got a bucket load of shit that you can pick up any time you want so long as you play by his rules – and he has told you what they are. Good luck.
As an afterthought fitnessfreak, can I also say that it is you who needs to see who he is – he is not going to explain it to you – but he has shown you (and will show you) who he is through his actions; it is your responsibility to pay attention and come to your own conclusions.
FF
No text of the birthday variety or any other.
Thanks I cando x helps x
Will sit on my hands …..or glue them to something…..:) ….
Good for you Fitness. I’ve been painting and stucco patching my house. It is difficult to text with paint and stucco patch stuck to my fingers. Glue them together, stucco patch them together, and then sit on them. That’s what I’m doing.
fitnessfreak – hope you’re still hanging in there and doing anything but getting in contact. About your question: “Birthday text…..and I get no.response…I know it will hurt…..but won’t it tell me more and give me closure ???”
You get to give yourself closure. Why should he get to be the one to ignore a reach-out for things to be final? You can be the one to say it’s over, and you already have.
Not wanting to call the kettle black…after asking advice on birthday text ….but !!! Artemis….fathers day card ??? ..don’t you think that looks a bit odd …if he not your dad ? ….maybe just an excuse to contact….I so feel for you honey x …but isn’t this site about not being sappy / needy / desperate / bending our self like a pretzle…and finding our dignity which is the better prize ..you can go back to the store for a refund on the other stuff…but the store cannot refund your dignity….only you can do that …..I am beginning to find that a better prize…..and there is no price to it !!!!…. Artemis….please no fathers day card….and I won’t send the happy birthday text Monday ??
fitnessfreak.
I know sending a card for Fathers’ Day is only to remind him of me. I hate that I want to. I’ve sent FD cards to other men who are Fathers, so it’s not odd to me, but I know that is only an excuse for me to have him think of me for at least a second. He doesn’t really care except to stoke his ego that I’m still thinking of him . But I’m glad it’s not his birthday like you, because at this stage I would probably fail. But if you stay strong and tell me you id, then I will do the same. I’m going to try to what you are doing and kept saying. “Who care’s if it’s Father’s Day”. Ok, now I just have to go now and delete this wonderful ecard I have waiting to be sent to him and sing the Rocky song. 🙂 Love to you and thanks! 🙂 x
Artemis: Send the card to yourself if you love it so much. Seriously.
Regarding all this to send or not to send. Natalie, as always, has it spot on in her comment today. To send is to chase a feeling – to get attention – to look for some more zzz – it’s drama seeking… it’s all been said…
But in respect of the other blog about “you are either in or you are out – you are either interested or you are not interested” I think is applicable to this itching to use any old excuse to send cards or to make contact.
To send or not to send? To contact or not to contact? Well, you are either in or you are out, you are either interested or you are not interested. If you decide you are still “in”, still interested, then you have to realise what it is you are still interested in, which is still “in” and still interested in someone who is definitely not “in” and “not interested” in anything but messing you about
So… good luck with that one 🙂
Maryc …thanks…” who cares if its his birthday ” ….simple statement ..but hit home !!!!….. will be repeating the phrase till tues …:) 🙂 x
Artemis….
” he doesn’t really care except to stoke his ego that I’m still thinking if him ” spot on !!! These man boys don’t deserve anymore ego stroking from any of us….. or they think their behavior is ok / acceptable….and has no consequence
I was thinking today ..that I know by tomorrow evening when I HAVENT sent happy birthday….I will feel proud of myself ! Infact to not send anything will give me dignity……something he could never give…..and I’m taking it back !!!
I was also thinking today about the way he left his wife…..just upped and left in the middle of the night with ” I can’t do this anymore ” I used to justify that and think she must have been horrible / unbearable………. but NC gives me the clarity to see I’m glad that will never be me he does that to !!! It even allows me to not care about the next girl who comes along …..poor cow !! These guys should be tagged with a flashing danger warning sign on their heads !!….. although …..I think actually they are !!! All the warnings where there in the first few heady dates …I just chose to ignore them ….preferring the zsa zsa zu…. Duh !!!! an AC situation had never happened to me before …..and man….I promise It won’t be happening again …thanks to this site, the lovely ladies here ,…..and the totall
and absolute waste of time and emotional energy !!!!…… I have 3 lovely kids I can be giving my time and energy to !!!
Hugs to u Artemis x ….. I promise there will be no happy birthdays this end…..keep strong and delete !!!!!!
Artemis and FitnessFreak, I’ve been following your comments over the weekend and you’ve obviously had a lot of advice so I’ll aim for brevity.
Artemis – the purpose of sending a father’s day card is to wish a father happy father’s day. You have an agenda and your card isn’t actually for this purpose. It’s to generate a reaction – ‘Over here, over here, look at me!’. The thing is that it’s weird. Maybe nobody has had the balls to say it to you because what can you say once you get the card, but giving father’s day cards out willy nilly is very weird.
FitnessFreak – It’s his birthday, not yours. You know when exes send a birthday text and end up disrupting a day that’s really about you? Well that’s what you would be doing. There are lots of other people who can wish him happy birthday – the world will still keep turning if you don’t. I’m glad you are seeing the light because there comes a point when we have to stop doing things to cater to our own busy minds. The fact is, we *all* have exes. Should we be sending cards, birthday texts and gifts to them all? Absolutely not and we have to respect life moving on. It’s time to get on with your own life. If it was that innocent, you wouldn’t have put so much thought expenditure into it. That alone is your cue to roll back.
Couldn’t agree more! This is probably going to sound petty, but I wouldn’t want to give someone who didn’t treat me well the satisfaction of knowing I was “thinking of them” on a holiday/their birthday, etc. Going No Contact, as painful as it can be, is really very liberating – this person who messed around in your life no longer has the power to do so. Fitnessfreak and Artemis, I think you should revel in the fact that you can take your life back starting right now! Trust me, I know how hard it can be – I was in a five year yo-yo debacle with a total asshole and am now just about 5 months NC. I can’t tell you how much more positive I feel as a person (cheesy, I know, but it’s true) – shedding all the negativity and drama leaves you free to enjoy your life. If I hadn’t gone No Contact, I’d still be sitting here either waiting for him to reappear/pay attention to me/anxiously dreading the next inevitable disappearing act/blaming myself/weeping to my best friend. That’s no way to live! Instead, I’m going to take my doggie to the beach and have lunch with a friend. THAT is the good stuff in life – limbo is not! *Hugs*
Has anyone checked out Steven carter and Julia sokols books…..Men who can’t love …how to avoid the commitment phobia man before he breaks your heart , He’s scared , She’s scared, and. What Smart women know . All pretty good …not said with the same pizazz as NML …and not as funny…..but read them all in one weekend ( this weekend ) …..and helps with that feeling of ” maybe I’m the crazy one ” …..sorry to be off topic !!!! Oops !
Hi, this is my first day as a commenter here. I found this site after a confusing few months seeing a man who “doesn’t want to commit,” but wants to be exclusive in bed, and who seems to like me better when I treat him like shit. The mind games were almost fun at first, but tiring. So glad my naive self found BR to learn about EU/AC behavior.
But this post made me realize something shameful. I just got out of a 3 year relationship where I think I was the EUW. I treated—and honestly thought of—him as an option because I didn’t think he was good enough for me (in part bc he loved me so much, and found me attractive so clearly my low-self esteem told me that meant there was something wrong with him). I always tried to break things off because I didn’t see it going anywhere long term, but I kept coming back to him because it was easy, he was nice to me, and the sex was amazing. He said I drove him crazy (ZZZ perhaps?). He wanted to marry me and instead I forced us into an open relationship so I could sleep with other people. I know I made a giant mistake in dumping him, but I still text him or call him sometimes and bring up getting back together. I don’t know why, and I need to stop because it is selfish and unfair to him. I tell myself I would marry him, but I think our relationship might be too far beyond repair.
Fast forward to 6 months after we break up and I’m hanging around some (objectively-speaking) loser whose mind games have provided the ZZZ that kept me intrigued for way too long. Karma? Or maybe I feel the need to punish myself for my past EU sins? It is exhausting. I never feel like we’re on a team; he always wants to get his way and so I feel like the “relationship” has devolved into one big standoff or chess game to see who can use the other the most.
I just hope I can muster the strength (and contempt) I need to stop engaging with my EUM, and the strength to stop being an EUW and calling my ex for no reason. Most importantly I just want the self-esteem to be alone and not feel the need to be next to someone in bed to fall asleep. Thank you Natalie, so glad you’ve shared your emotional intelligence with us.
OsaDelMar,
Taking time to be alone really gives you clarity into your patterns and things just seem to come to the surface that don’t get a chance when your in relationship. I found this was the case for me.
It was scary at first, but mostly because being alone takes a bit a practice and it is a new routine. When I sat with my feelings, I realized that I felt more a peace and happier when I was on my own than with my ex.
Also, the longer I was single, the more I noticed that family/friends and even acquaintances would continually ask me if I was seeing someone. So much of the way society is structured is around being in a couple and if your single for an extended period of time, there seems to be some level of judgement. At a certain point I had to stop justifying to all these people why I was still single and just live.
I knew I wanted to break the ZZZ pattern I had with my ex and learn another way of understanding relationships…or get back to the basics of what I knew to be healthy and true about relationships (I was in a good marriage for 11 years and then suddenly widowed and then out in the dating world)
For me, taking time to rediscover who I am and learn new things about the way I relate has been so invaluable…a gift really…and I know that if I contiinue on down this road, in time, I’m sure I’ll cross paths with a decent man. Good luck.
Thanks Lily.
That must have been really tough to know a good marriage, lose your spouse, and then find yourself involved in a bad/ZZZ relationship.
You’re right about the societal pressure to date. And honestly, I feel a need for companionship as well sometimes. But like you said, I know that I need time to explore and rediscover myself because deep down I’d rather not get involved with anyone unless I can start from a healthy place. I think that had been manifesting itself in me saying “I’m not looking for anything serious, I just want to have fun.” And we all see how that works out.
How long has it taken you to find this place of peace?
But it really is scary to me right now, and part of the scariness is facing the fact that I have acted in a selfish way and trying to figure out the best way to repair the damage (selfish not just by previously being an EUW, but also by blowing off the company and invitations of friends and family who actually cared about me more than the EUM). The other part of the scary is being alone and brave enough to validate myself instead of looking to some jerky manchild with good abs.
OsaDelMar,
Finding the sense of peace is still an ongoing process for me. Sometimes, like everyone, I have days when I feel deep grief and just want to reach out to the ex. I realized after I broke it off with the ex that the feelings of loss from the death of my husband came rushing back. I realized that part of the hook that kept me with the ex and addicted to the ZZZ was that I was trying to fill a void. Each loss seems to trigger the original loss.
I feel so disconnected sometimes being single. Tonight I felt that as I walked the streets of New York, like I was in a dream. I was thinking about both my husband and ex and just felt like, who am I, will I ever experience a real love again and get to that place that feels safe and secure?
Most of the itme I feel safe and secure on my own, but there are days that just feel surreal…and on those days I just try to sit with the feelings and let them come up and out…cry them out, write them out and then I feel better, stronger…like I got through another day…got to know a deeper part of myself…today was a hard day, but there was lots of learning.
Each time I have a rough day like that I don’t reach out to the ex… I congratulate myself…4 months NC and going strong…most days anyway.
Thank you, your words really speak to me. I think its very insightful to recognize it as addiction and seeking to fill a loss. I’ve been getting reckless and thrill-seeking in other areas of my life and letting my priorities (read: career) slip. I just hope I can muster the courage to start to take control again, and that it doesn’t take something really awful happening to gather up my resolve.
I think its great and inspiring that you’ve gone 4 months NC. And it may not sound that comforting, but its also inspiring to me that you feel safe and secure on your own most of the time. Everyone has off days, hang in there.
ps) I lived in NYC for years, and got that surreal feeling walking on the street when tired or upset… even before all the relationship trouble. Some very grouchy days I’d walk home (uptown) from my office (financial district) even though it would take a couple hours, just so I could tire myself out walking and shut off my brain in a way that the gym couldn’t.
PPS) You sound like you’re making all the right changes to find your safety and security. Then you can welcome someone into your life who deserves you. A man that can treat someone who just had such a world-shaking loss poorly or take advantage of someone who is vulnerable seems worse beyond your average AC or EUM, and certainly doesn’t need to be in your life!
Magnolia and Sunshine,
I did spend some time getting to the bottom of why I wanted to acknowledge the “anniversary”. The anniversary was of tragic event and a painful loss.
Magnolia you perfectly summed it up: “It’s like you know there is a pain so deep that you can’t imagine that someone you’ve shared it with would ever leave you: and you want to make sure you never would leave someone who has shared that degree of their pain with you.” So for me, I don’t know about him, the one-year anniversary not only triggered the memories of his orginal loss but triggered more grieving for me over the current loss as well.
You all were right, there was something underlying my impluse to contact him and it was fear, fear of the sadness, fear of grieving.
I made it through, kinda. I hope Tuplia, Fitness, and the others did too.
First off, an ENORMOUS thank you Natalie for your incredible insight, and to all of you wisecrackers, for sharing your touching (&hilarious at times) stories. I’ve been reading e.v.e.r.y single posts and comments, for the past two years now, and feel a real sense of sisterhood coming here.
I stumbled across BR whilst manically looking for help/answers on the net, as I was losing my mind with his Lordship EU, OBE. My…epiphany! I’ll spare you the ‘classic’ details, and just wanted to share how incredibly helpful it’s been, coming here.. NC for two years and forever gone. I no longer feel so lost in this dating Amazon. You’re a tremendous guide Natalie, and hilarious to boost! 🙂 Still giggling at the ‘Dynastied macaroon-hunk, re-adjusting his ‘shoulder pads’.. hehe
To stay on topic-ish, I just thought I’d share the most cringe-worthy video of a cringe-worthy song called ‘Hooked on a Feeling’, by the infamous ‘Hoff’.
Try to think of the ‘Hoff’-his-head, superman-ing his ego on a flying motorbike, sweeping you off your feet to NEVER, Never Land, whenever you feel this Zsa Zsa Zu-nami taking hold of your… ‘don’t insult my intelligence!!’
If THAT isn’t a turn off, then I don’t know what is..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62S1vws4y7s
Enjoy!
Lucyd
As a closet cackler at any and all manifestations of the Hoff, I have to share with you my personal favourite – ‘Jump In My Car’:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm7jEA3frY4
And if that ever palls, do feel free to refresh yourself with Dolph Lundrgen’s take on ‘A Little Less Conversation’:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHtatY7bOUY
How could any man resist a guy in a tux who can karate-chop a pile of ice while miming to Elvis? Talk about your A-grade zza zza zuu righ there!
Thanks PJM! I couldn’t bare watching for more than 10 seconds..
I wished the Hoff’s millions were truly wasted on ‘any publicity is good publicity’.. but the reality is, that some of us still eat, and gladly digest, that sort of junk.
Society (currently the UK, I’m from France originally) teaches me that people are products to sell on job and human-meat markets. So is it any wonder that we pay so much attention to things like zzz, a by-product, perhaps, of that all pervasive self-promoting behaviour..? There are many other translations of this ZZZ. The ‘X-factor’, or Thierry Henry’s va va voom, for instance.
I told a man recently that, to me, ‘casual’ was at one extreme end of the relationships spectrum. The other extreme being ‘swept off my feet (thanks to jiu jistu, I mean ZZZ-top,* sorry this Zsa Zsa Ga-bor(es) me out of my tits*) and lived happily ever after’; and that I would love to meet someone, somewhere in the middle of that neurotic pendulum. This *somewhere in the middle* very closely resembles the balance act that Natalie so often mentions.. I think I’m getting closer to that place, through understanding, and re-wiring of thoughts, beliefs and attitudes, thereby shutting off men (& people in general) that aren’t positively contributing to my well-being, in the long run.
Oh & just so you know, the chauvinist pig started calling me ‘crazy bitch’, and that he wished he knew a good psychologist to refer me to. My response was.. a yawn.
Two years back and I would be doubting my own sanity! Talk about internalising male chauvinism..
Thanks again Natalie, and please do keep em coming, undoing hundreds of years of internalised patriarchal brainwashing, one post at a time!
I’m so happy for this post, because it helps make sense of the way “Zsa Zsa Zu” affected the end of mine and my ex’s relationship. When it reached the point of no return but neither of us would let go, we’d try in our own ways to “get the feeling back.” I would try to get him to do things I knew he didn’t want to do…hang out with my family or friends, attend an event that was interesting to ME, etc….and when he would finally say yes, I’d be like, SCORE…zsa zsa zu. He would act like an ass hat, I’d get mad, then I’d forgive him…and he was like SCORE …zsa zsa zu. We were both basically playing out our childhoods…I had 2 father figures who didn’t like many people or were not at all interested in the things that I was, and he had a mom who was very tempremental. So clear now. Thank you!
Update: Walk with PoetHost – meh. Knew a lot about how to mix drinks. Tried to bait me a bit with “how did you know I was an only child?” Me: It’s in your book. Him: Oh, I thought it might be because of ME, because I’m a narcissist, or spoiled, or whatever. Me: Nope. Him: I’m glad YOU don’t think I am. Me: … (*thinking: 1 – Narcissist Alert. 2 – Boring. 3 – Next topic.) Zsa zsa zu already faded, I think.
HomeHost: Comes back late and I’m playing video games. Says wanna go improvise music near the tracks? Me: Sure. (Insert scene of us playing a Buddhist gong and sax as experimental noise music thing. Very neat.) We stay up late talking and laughing. I say: time for bed. (*thinking: wow. That was super fun. I feel pretty comfortable. This guy digs the shit out of me.) A few minutes ago, through the door, him: I can’t sleep and it’s your fault because you are so awesome.
Me (shaking off doves and stars circling around my eyes): Crap. I almost blew my daily writing practice out of a fit of mushiness for a man who lives in another country. Doy-yoy-yoy-yoy. Went and wrote. Met my quota. Happy that a dude didn’t blow me off track. Came here to check in.
Runner – thank you so much for the support. So much easier to see through the shiny package now …
Mag
OooOOOoOH.
Both these guys dig you. I don’t think either of them wants to be just friends or business contacts and they’ve made that obvious. I avoid all these emotionally ambivalent situations now, which is why I have no male friends that a) I’m not related to and b) are not married to my female friends. However, I understand not everyone wants to go down that route.
Still, be careful. Right now you’re in control but I’ve experienced that being turned on its head. If at any point you get that anxiety-confused feeling that EUMs provoke,take heed!
Magnolia, Grace: Socializing with guys is definitely walking a thin line. Some years ago, I took flying lessons, and some of the already licensed pilots regularly offered me a ride whenever they happened to have a free seat. It was fun, and therefore I usually accepted. Women are rare among hobby pilots, but of course, those guys liked female company (and they liked to be seen with a woman, haha). I knew most of the guys well enough to know there wasn’t more to it than that.
However, at some point I encountered a MM who went great lenghts to have me as a co-pilot. He also chatted with me on the internet often. At first, I felt flattered, but then I felt more and more uneasy once I understood he expected “something in return” for the rides. I even grew slightly scared when I discovered he had a violent streak. It took me some effort to cut him out of my life. Luckily, that was years ago and he’s hopefully history now.
Bottom line: If they “invest” too much and you can’t tell why, well, it’s quite easy to guess what their real intentions are. I would stay way from that. If it’s pure business (with some kind of mutual benefit), or obviously a very casual “favor” (such as offering a free seat on a Cessna which, frankly, costs them nothing), that’s okay.
Now that I think of it: A few weeks ago, through my work, I encountered a guy who had just moved into a town where I do business often. He told me he was in a temporary long-distance relationship with his girl-friend. He seemed quite nice, smart and somewhat handsome – and was eager to exchange phone numbers. He even offered me to sleep over at his place whenever I happened to be in town again.
Red Flag! Anyway, I felt a little bit of zzz, telling myself “I can handle it”. No, I can’t. And I’m determined to keep my distance. Even if I might be mistaken about his intentions, there is absolutely nothing wrong with doing this. If there were compelling business reasons to interact with him, I would, but I can’t see any.
Gals – it IS a fine line. Seriously, all I did was show up and be around for exactly the level of interaction we contracted.
This whole thing is a bit of drama.
Hopefully I was boring enough to the first one (by not jumping at the bandcamp/narc bait) that all will stay professional and above board now.
This morning I woke up to a plate of breakfast cooked and waiting for me (he was out). I live with this person, he’s another grad student so I don’t think he thinks it’s professional, it’s more “buddy”-like, but he is coming on a bit strong.
The vibe with #2 was good in a new way for me, that suddenly I am TOTALLY thinking about sex. (He’s cute.) If this is zsa zsa, it’s another flavour … not all my anxiety triggers, but my *like* triggers with totally different red flags. It seems he wants to do things for me and is already telling me how ‘intense’ his liking of me is …
Man. I am here to WORK.
Not sure how to handle, but want to be careful. I’m supposed to be in this place for the rest of the month.
Actually, that’s not true. I could have said no thanks to both walks and late-night gong sessions. I guess I feel like a stickinthemud saying no, but that’s my problem, not theirs: hard to keep boundaries if I’m going to worry that they think I’m “no fun.”
I’ve learned/I’m learning that I can’t control everything in life and that’s a good thing. However, I don’t like feeling out of control when it comes to some things. One of those things is relationships. I don’t have time or energy to chase feelings or people. Right now, I have leg injuries so I can barely run! 😐 😉
To hell with Zsa Zsa whatever-the-hell. I’ll take stability over Zsa Zsa whatever-the-hell any day. If I get bored, we can have sex in public or go on a trip to a country we’ve never been to before or do a date night or something. 😐
Off to read the comments (which I’m sure will be quite….. ahem….. special).
Hi Everyone
I just recently ended a one year relationship with someone who was “nice”/a Great man! I tried so hard for the full year to have some type of spark/attraction for him because he fit so well into all the other qualities that I wanted in someone. I said, FINALLY! Life has sent me someone real, who is honest, generous, and someone who really LOVES me, my son and wants nothing more than to make me happy. I thought that sex and attraction could take a back seat because after all, I was seeking “quality”. It slowly came to a very painful end because as much as I tried, I never found that I “wanted” him. He hardly had a backbone and while saying that i found a man who wanted nothing more than to make me happy might sound like i struck gold, in reality thats all that he wanted and had no other goals or life. I said Jump, he said how high? At first this was very flattering (and quite addictive). He showered me with gifts and spoiled me to th max! I felt secure with him knowing that i could always count on him and knew that he loved me deeply. But i never reached over to him to kiss him passionately or hug him with intensity. In fact, most of the time he said he felt more like my “buddy” than anything else. That sex wasnt bad but that it didnt feel as though I really wanted it. It was more so a task. Lets do it and get it over with type thing. I can’t say that he was wrong.
So what i have gathered is that balance is indeed very important. You dont want someone too “nice” (or vanilla) nor someone too in the “red” where flags are raising everywhere. You want someone, oh i dont know, in the middle? (which would then be more like a vanilla with rainbow sprinkles? Some of them being red but also filled with other colors?) LOL OK!! maybe I went completely off tangent there for a minute but I am too struggling to figure this out. I sometimes ask myself, did I let a wonderful man go because I wanted to feel “some attraction”? Could I really have lived with out it? I think the answer is “NO”. I spent most of the relationship feeling like i was a dim candle. No spark, no fire, just a candle dimly burning and living day by day but that would also one day completely burn out. I was comfortable but i dont think i was fully living either. Being “safe” felt good but i think it was also me “settling”. I do not want a bad…
Girls….just in case you’re interested ..NOPE I didn’t text happy birthday !!! Yey for me :)…. didn’t even have to sit on my hands …I wasn’t even tempted….. just embraced my dignity …and loved the feeling 🙂 …… I just this minute got a text from said AC.” It was my birthday today ”
…..and NO …I won’t be replying to that either !! ….as an earlier comment confirmed ….he’s a one man pity party…
But I know without this blog …..I would not be feeling so unblinkered……thanks everyone….esp you Nat ….for all your insight !! ….amazing 🙂
Well done. The first thing I thought when I read his text was ‘No shit Sherlock. What do you think I am? A birthday welcome wagon?’ Fitness Freak, only someone truly up his own arse sends a text like that. Attention seeker alert!
Exactly! “It was my birthday today”? Really? What a blowhard jackass. That text would be annoying if it weren’t so damn hysterical. LMAO.
Thanks Nat ” no shit Sherlock ” …just had me spit my tea out 🙂 🙂 ….. today was a strong day….I get from the comments …I should expect ups and downs…..but today was a good day 🙂 🙂 thanks
How timely – I saw this on a local current affairs program last night. Although there are cultural issues involved, I think the groom’s family’s justification of his psychopathic behaviour was very interesting.
And oh dear – this little gem turned up this morning as well:
This is a really good example of a ‘Mr Perfect,’ with plenty of zsa zsa zoom and the ability to barge his way into a woman’s life with a struck-by-lightning chance romantic meeting over a pizza – but what a psychopath he turned out to be.
Great topic. Last night I went to a church group after work. I met a guy there who was extremely well mannered, considerate, educated, employed in a high level position at a great company and single. I kept thinking to myself that this guy seems to have all the qualities most girls I know say they want. However I can’t picture a single one of my friends dating a guy like this. Despite all the great qualities I noticed, I bet most of my friends would find him boring, plain or just too nice. If he wasn’t so much younger than me, I’d date him myself. I think too many people waste their time chasing that feeling instead of finding someone with the qualties they say they want.
Recovering Addict,
I know I’m being cynical but come on–if this guy has ALL of those qualities, then ask yourself “why is he single”? A single conversation doesn’t tell you much about a person. It takes months and sometimes years to find out that someone is EU, an AC or just plain batsh** crazy. Why do you think women you know wouldn’t date him? Was he not physically attractive or something?
I’m now in a bed and breakfast – for the rest of the month. $$$. I couldn’t have predicted the situation with the HouseHost, but I do see now how much not wanting to make some guy mad has cost me. Hours and hours and hours and hours of my life I will never get back. And $$$ because of someone else’s BS.
The macaroon was the first clue. The weird, intense questions at midnight about whether I wanted him to leave the apartment, combined with declarations of affection and then wanting to confess his deepest darkest were the last I needed. He gave me all my money back, though, immediately. Seems like he has been through this scenario before.
PoetHost continues to ogle girls when we’re out – I do appreciate that I now can put to rest my inner questions around whether
the exAC was denying his ogling or I was being hypervigilant. I wasn’t. This guy does the exact same thing.
PH and I have lots more professional time together before I go. Even through this last day’s logistics, I think I’ve done well keeping the conversation on the straight and narrow. Already I’ve noticed him trying to knock me a couple of times – I say something innocuous, he says, “That wasn’t funny” as if he needs to tell me my joke was a FAIL.
Funny how, now, the impulse to make a crack to him about what a bad boy he is goes away quickly, fading into Who cares? Not my sack of crap to deal with. I would have engaged at exactly that point: with a comeback to the put down, with a subtle snide remark about the ogling.
I’m not that woman anymore.
Magnolia, They are vampires and you were their fresh meat. Little did they know how strong you are and what backing you have here on BR. So glad you are seeing through them and applying all of your learning…you have been thrown a curve but are overcoming it. I feel for you but know you will be okay now that you see them as they are. Take care.
I like the sound of “Zsa Zsa Zu”! :-))))))) The thing is, with me personally, I like to feel ALIVE in everything I do, not just in the love department. If something doesn’t animate me, I’m lost. BUT, I realized one thing: we need a FEELING, but the GOOD type of feeling is not anxiety, but a feeling of warmth that comes from the heart. Isn’t it, Natalie? Don’t we experience this feeling when we are around a GOOD man? 😉 Note: please check my comment on the post about “waiting around” for further information. I think I’m experiencing THAT feeling now. 🙂