Last year I wrote about when we try to get people to make us the exception to their rule of behaviour, which is in essence the foundation of every relationship where you stay with someone who has shown and told you, whether it’s directly or indirectly, who they really are, and yet you stay anyway. Since then, it’s one of my most frequently emailed about subjects because many now recognise that they’re trying to be the exception…but don’t seem to want to stop.
Why do people continue being involved with unavailable people or even assclowns?
Because they hope that even if it’s not today, even if it’s not tomorrow, but soon, this person will see something in them or value their dedication enough to change.
Why do people keep carrying the same beliefs, baggage, and behaviours, choosing the same types of people, different package and expecting different results?
Because rather than address any of these factors, they expect to continue to make the same choices and carry the same mentality and then ‘miraculously’, without having to stretch themselves, one of those exact same or very similar situations will be the exception to their rule and shazam, happy ever after.
Relationship insanity is doing all of those things and continuing to expect to get a different result – that is looking to be the exception.
Even though I’ve gone back several times, I’m going back again because surely this time they will be different.
If I keep pushing for change and showing how dedicated I am, they’ll change even though time and again, they’ve either promised to change but haven’t or were this way prior to being involved with me.
Even though I’ve been involved with this type before and I am yet to have a successful relationship with it, I’m convinced that this type of person is what I need to make me happy so I will try again.
Even though this person makes me unhappy and doesn’t treat me with love, care, trust, and respect and I even call them an ‘assclown’, I love them so I’m going to keep trying/going back because hopefully they’ll make me the exception.
Even though I don’t believe I’m good enough, I’m hoping they’ll prove me wrong even if I’ve made a choice that reflects my beliefs or I’m sabotaging a decent relationship.
When you persist in being the exception, you end up doing and being things that detract from you because you make exceptions – cue boundary busting, excuse making, illusion conjuring and turning a blind eye.
Trying to be the exception is an invitation for denial.
As long as you persist in trying to get people and life to make you the exception, you are highly likely to continue experiencing the pain of the rule.
Where there is any goodness to experience from the rule, you’ll either miss out or experience it in a limited capacity because you’re too busy wondering why you’re not experiencing the exception. Classic example is when you’re suspicious/turned off by people who treat you well.
In trying to be the exception, it fundamentally means that you know the rule. You can’t be an exception if you don’t know what you’re being exceptional to.
It’s time for you to have an honest conversation with yourself and open your eyes and ears and acknowledge what the rule is – is their rule of behaviour what you can live with? Is the rule of what you experience telling you that you need to make changes?
If the truth isn’t conducive to a mutually fulfilling healthy relationship or where you can be personally happy with reasonable self-esteem, it’s time to ask when you’re going to make yourself an exception to your rule of pursuing relationship insanity and do something very different?
What’s in it for you? Why are you continuing to gamble with yourself? At what point do you say enough?
If your rule is to be suspicious and distrusting in every relationship, guess what? You have to play your part and learn to have faith in yourself so that you can trust in others and either increase or roll back the trust accordingly. Distrusting people always find more reasons to distrust. Where they don’t, they make it up. Why? Because they don’t trust themselves.
If your rule is to keep going out with unavailable people and/or people that mistreat you, guess what? You have to opt out and not try to turn a pigs ear into a silk purse because you have enough experience to know what the rule is.
When your route to ‘love’ is pain, you have an idea that love comes from an unlikely source with ‘suffering’. It’s not good enough to get love from a giving, healthy source – it has to reflect your beliefs, and will give you validation. You have to be met with resistance, problems, obstacles, drama – then you believe this is a relationship worth having.
Love isn’t about having the power to change someone, especially when their rule is not something healthy.
Do you know why people get different results? Because they stop believing that thinking and doing the same thing is going to achieve different results. They accept the rule.
Even if they subsequently take risks, they have the rule as their baseline and they opt out of danger. Many are remarkable with the rule – there are people out there who have healthy, mutually fulfilling, love filled relationships without having to feel like shit all the time and living in drama and ambiguity.
While there are some ‘lucky’ people out there and that’s really only based on what we perceive them to be or what they’ve let us think they are, the great majority of people who experience exceptional results are part of creating that. They don’t wait around for people to give them the perfect job, for the planets to align, for people to change, for someone else to invent it, or for their circumstances to change.
While there will always be anomalies and those urban myths you hear about that person with no self-esteem that with no change, landed on their feet with a perfect life, or that woman that lived happily ever after following an affair with a married man, or the person that used to be a major assclown and became The Perfect Person when they ‘fell in love’, the overwhelming majority of us experience the rule.
What is the rule? – Not just the general rule – what is the rule with this person, with this situation? If it’s familiar, trust me, you know the rule.
Am I trying to be the exception?
If you can answer these two questions and apply the knowledge to make appropriate healthy choices, you will be happier and you will find yourself in healthier relationships.
Those of you who fancy being in the driving seat of your own life and living and loving with your self-esteem will find love and happiness in the rule and be very damn happy with it because you realise you were damn miserable in the quest to be the exception.
If you also want a life that’s that exceptional, be and do the things you can control instead of looking for others to be exceptional and trying to control the uncontrollable so that you can be exceptional as a byproduct.
Those of you who want to avoid change, think you know better, like to gamble, will keep trying to be exception. You’ll keep trying to find love in resistance and abnormal differentiation. Keep going – the same results await you.
Your thoughts?
Check out my ebooks the No Contact Rule and Mr Unavailable & The Fallback Girl and more in my bookshop.
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Ha ha Nat – its knowing the flip side to that rule. I am the exception – to my rule – and I don’t need someone to tell me that or prove it to me. Live life as an exclaimation not an explanation!
Who would want to be an exception to his rule – not ME! I am NOT that woman anymore! EEEEEWWWWWWW
Good for you!
One of my favorite sayings in the past year or two is “DO NOT make an exception the rule”. It should be applied throughout life and in all aspects of life, but this is especially so with men – assclown men, to be exact.
“Where there is any goodness to experience from the rule, you’ll either miss out or experience it in a limited capacity because you’re too busy wondering why you’re not experiencing the exception. Classic example is when you’re suspicious/turned off by people who treat you well.”
With the above quote, do you mean something like people who say “he/she is too nice” and usually deal with relationship insanity/drama but then complain about it yet continue the insanity?
This is a great blog entry. More people need to read & re-read this.
ph2072 Yeah it’s basically being with someone decent, then being suspicious of them and needing the drama created by someone who isn’t decent so that you can be the exception. Obviously someone who is habitually decent doesn’t need to change themselves or their personality to treat you with love, care, trust, and respect.
Cool, thanks. 😉
Another fantastic post Natalie! Thanks for always writing something inspirational and spot on with your advice… I’ve done lots of thinking over the past few months and feel like your words are really sinking in, but I know what lingers with me is that little part of me that wants to be the exception. I was really hung up on the EUM i ended it with after all the hot-cold-hot-cold dating as we clearly were not going to be having any sort of solid relationship let alone fairytale ending… To spend the months that followed hoping he would call, to only get the odd lane text, for me to reply and the usual non response once he got the ego stroke he wanted… And me left feeling worthless as I would think his making contact was a sign he missed me and just needed some encouragement. Silly me! I was upset as I saw him on multiple dating websites once we went our separate ways, and through obsessing I know he has taken himself off them. I think this must mean he has found ‘the one’ and feel stupid I have spent so long thinking about what he is upto. I haven’t heard from him
since my bday and I’m too ashamed to ever
contact him again (back to nc for 30 days now)… I have taken a break from dating the last couple of months to focus on my career as a doctor. Got big exams coming up and realised I woyld be so disappointed in myself if I didn’t get through, so dating can resume when I’m ready. I do want to have an exceptional life and work is something I value and can do well at if I put my mind to it. Sitting wishing and waiting for an assclown to suddenly realise is a waste of time. I do feel like Im moving on slowly, and not actively waiting to hear from him anymore. Once he is out of my system I feel I should start dating, there are a few sweet guys who have been on the scene that I keep using my exams as an excuse not to meet as I can’t have the distraction, but in all honesty I’m not ready emotionally to give them anything after the exam if I still think about the eum. Aaargh! Pray for the day I feel nothing!
Thanks nml, and everyone that comments.
Hi Maya. Once you’re calling them an EUM or an assclown, you know that pursuing them is looking to be the exception and thankfully you’ve opted out. Yes you’re bound to be hurt but it will get better and you would absolutely regret it if you shagged up your exams. Use that as a focus, keep grieving the loss of the ex, feel good about you and in time, yes you will be ready to date, exams or not. Good luck!
Maya – pray for the day you can laugh about it. Gut busting belly laugh. OMG WTF was I thinking. Can’t help but smile.
I am waiting for that day!! Maybe soon 🙂
Thanks for the good luck! I am gonna need it 🙂 I have been studying hard, and did think of the boy a few times and then pushed thoughts out. He is not going to give a damn if I fail or pay for expensive resits! I just hope I clear it and full forget him, so I can move on with life and start meeting people again.
Hi NML, I just wanted to tell you I passed my exams which was a big relief 🙂 I found out after passing that my exEUM has got a girlfriend officially which made me feel a bit crap all over again….(suspected it in Feb when he took himself off dating websites – which I shamefully would check to see if he was still looking). Don’t know why I went backwards, as i feel like I was getting stronger and ready to move on. I have started dating again, but I just don’t feel much for new guys.
I have been re-reading all your posts again to make me stronger again, Thank you!
Congratulations! Well done! Now keep looking forward before you get a crick in your neck!
Hello Maya,
you said: ” I was upset as I saw him on multiple dating websites once we went our separate ways and through obsessing I know he has taken himself off them. I think this must mean he has found “the one”.
Let me challenge that a minute, first of all. I guess if he is single he is totally entitled to be on various dating websites, but the fact that he has taken himself off does NOT mean he has found “the one”. Here are just a few reasins why he could have taken his profile down:
1. he’s bored of dating websites;
2. he is busy with work
3. he is dating someone, but they are not “the one”
4. he is enjoying being single with noone in his life
Basically second guessing why people do their stuff is pointless and sometimes we have to accept that we will never know why they do what they do. Just to put it into some perspective as well for you from my own life. A guy I dated who was a reall assclown bigstyle is now engaged and has been for two years, so you would presume he has found “the one!” Er NOPE! He has tried getting it one with me and other women, he is on multiple dating websites albeit with a profile that says, “coffee is okay” er tell me assclown why you are on adating website if you are “engaged”. He is now sleeping with an ex girlfriend whilst “trying to work it out” with his fiancee.
What I am trying to say here is that when someone has treated you badly and is an assclown, they still remain an assclown after they leave you. They really DON’T mek YOU an exception to their rule of generally diusrespecting all sorts of values.
You also said “I’ve taken a break from dating the last couple of month to focus on my career as a doctor”
I would say that is a far more positive focus than someone who has not valued you in the past.
(please check my blog because I am on my own journey away from assclown and mind fuckery and it was the best decision I EVER made!
Hi Live my Gorgeous life!
Thanks for your reply…. You may well be right, a friend of mine (who I bored to tears with the scenario) said the same thing as you. There could be any number of reasons why he has taken himself off all these dating sites. Thought it was weird that he joined a new one (my friend who was on this website told me ‘hey i think your ex has joined on another site’)…saw the pic; confirmed it was him, and then through ridiculously stalking him, found he was not there the next montjh or the others. My first response when I saw he was on these websites sooner after we went our separate ways (6 months ago) and then joined a new one in the start of 2011 was ‘well i guess he is still looking for someone’ but also confirmation that ‘he is not looking for me/ is not thinking about getting back with me/ when he contacts me he is only looking for an ego stroke as he is not having luck online’…. So of course, I thought if he has joined and left so quick he must have met ‘the one’ as he was so desperate to find someone he joined another one at the start of the year! Overanalysed this to death, ashamed to admit it. And it just hurt, to think he has found her and that finally closes the door on us ever being together and him turning out to be the Prince Charming I thought he was at the beginning (betting on potential in a bad way). That silly little part of me was hoping he would meet lots of girls through these sites, never meet anyone who he could see a future with and realise what a mistake he made! In all honesty, I think it would be good if he has finally met someone, as until that day I think I’d have that hope. Although he still on my fb, I have made a point of not checking his, don’t want confirmation he is in ‘ a relationship’ and have a picture of him with someone else etc…. Think that would still make me feel worse, don’t know why….. On a positive note, I am focusing on exams. BR is inspiring me in my breaks!
I am going to read your blog next! Good luck on your journey xx
Yep, this is me. If I can MAKE this assclown love me, then I win. It will even up all the rejection from all the people in my life who have been unable/unwilling to love me, starting with my parents if I can just get THIS ONE to do it. And I’m so close … any day now, he’s going to figure out that I am beautiful, special, kind, smart, funny, and the best thing he’s ever had in his life. Even though for all the time I’ve known him, he’s not yet seen this, andhe continues to pursue other women in numbers, right in front of me….I know all too well what the rule is, I just don’t want to believe it.
Well Skyscraper, I think you don’t need me to tell you what’s going on here, especially if you’d go to the trouble of calling him an assclown. I’ll be honest with you, as someone who has crackerjack, disappointing parents and my fair share of rejection, that guy is not going to fill the void or make up for it. It’s not his job and as an assclown, he lacks the capabilities more than most. You being in denial about him, especially in the face of him pursuing others, isn’t down to him – he’s showing you himself. What’s not to believe? It’s not like someone told you something and you doubt them – unless you need to go to Specsavers, there’s nothing wrong with your eyes. Why deceive yourself?
Dear Skyscraper,
in one paragraph you just captured my whole motivation for pursuing someone who’s “just that not into me”. The irony is that I KNOW this – in college I obsessed for many months over a man I really loved who wasn’t as committed and broke up with me to date a higher-status woman in our circle. Ten years later I looked him up and we dated for two months, with him very interested; then I dumped him. It wasn’t at all that the man was a lost true love, it was me not wanting him once I had him.
I’ve had plenty of therapy, I know it goes back to childhood abandonment issues, I understand it all rationally, and yet emotionally the feelings are so strong and primal that I’ve fallen into that trap over and over. There’s a hole in me that seems to open up in bad periods of my life. When things are going well I’m healthy enough, but when things go south I end up in situations that only hurt my self-esteem more.
Natalie, I love that you keep saying it until we get it. I didn’t think this applied to me. (Ha! I thought I was the exception to your descriptions!!) But now that I get what you’re saying, I believe you may have offered me a lifeline.
There is one ‘rule’ that I never wanted to play by: i.e. we find our own water level, people who are equally matched make good partners. Why not? Because my self-esteem sucked, and my chaotic, somewhat aimless life reflected that. Anyone who was at my ‘level’ would have been in the same boat.
I kept picking hyper-competitive achievers with a ruthless contempt for second-place, and trying to convince them I shouldn’t come second to them in their lives.
As I build my self-esteem, love myself, and see that I am indeed a fine person and have worked on a few key areas, I don’t have to worry that “finding my watermark” means dating people that disappoint and instead trying to date people “better” than me and hope they’ll make an exception by dating “down” (i.e. me).
I can live by the rule now. Only people who are ‘equals’ to each other can have an egalitarian partnership.
Thanks for the great post.
Trust me Magnolia, you don’t need anyone to date down and you don’t need to put anyone on a pedestal and blow smoke up her bum. You are more than good enough and deserve an equal partnering – don’t sell yourself short.
Another great thought-provoker. I am coming to see and accept how controlling I have tried to be. Basically, I now see my AC as a great teacher. Whatever I cannot stand about him is some aspect of myself I am not seeing or accepting and trying to control the behaviour of others is number 1. I am not proud of that but if I accept it and work to change it, I will hopefully love myself more.
It has taken me an embarrassingly long time to accept that I have spent my life miserable in relationships because I have been trying to turn the other person into what I want them to be, rather than love myself, having healthy boundaries and trusting myself enough to get out of situations where it is clear the other person is not treating me with love and respect. I have created drama, manipulated situations and other things I am now ashamed of, all in the name of desperately (and I use that word in all its meanings) trying to get my needs met. I wanted someone to love me so I could love me. When a long line of men didn’t love me, that was the proof I needed that I was unlovable.
You are absolutely right about knowing the rule, even if you don’t want to admit it. I knew what I was up against with the last AC but thought I could outsmart it. Could prove that I was worth loving and that I could completely change his bad beliefs in relationships. All this posturing and effort just kept me from focusing on me and my own issues. I have held onto the belief for years that if HE would just change, I would be happy. That is really the core of every relationship I have had – I will change them so I don’t have to change me. I will force them to care, and somehow felt justified in doing whatever was necessary to try and provoke the emotions and reactions I wanted. All things I have accused my ex of doing.
This week has been a hard, cold look in the mirror and its been rough but I have to believe very very necessary. Only by seeing myself clearly am I going to be able to start to change those things that are keeping me from what I want. As you say, life isn’t going to come to me. I have to go out and make of it what I want. Not by demanding others give it to me but by believing I am worthy and not accepting poor treatment or disrespect.
Your recent comments Debra have been fantastic and so insightful into your journey. I love the raw honesty and how you don’t shy away from discomfort. I’m a firm believer that if your happiness is dependent on someone changing, acquiring something etc, you’ll never be happy. We have to ask how someone *else* changing can make *us* happy? We’re the ones who are unhappy! Why would someone else changing make a difference to that?
Debra you said:
“As you say, life isn’t going to come to me. I have to go out and make of it what I want. Not by demanding others give it to me but by believing I am worthy and not accepting poor treatment or disrespect”.
What a great statement that is! It’s all about self esteem at the end of the day. If you think someone is an assclown AND you have high self esteem you just say Bu-BYE! End of it! Expecting others to change when they clearly don’t posses the respect bone is delusional, wishful thinking. Good for you! Go out and get a gorgeous life! )
uuhhggg. This is tricky stuff. It makes complete sense of course until you are struggling with someone who is disrespecting you. An assclown is pretty easy to spot these days for me, but an EUM is less so. I would never struggle to become the exception for an assclown again but the EUM is confusing. The nice and sweet in between their subtle withdrawal, or hot to luke warm is hard to put your finger on. You know something has changed but you don’t have concrete examples. The examples don’t sound so horrible but you get a sick feeling in your gut. I am dating someone new, two months now, and this past week I have seen a few red flags. They aren’t awful things really but enough to get my attention and make me feel uneasy. I don’t want to be the exception this time, I just don’t want any part of any unhealthy relationship crap. But this is where it gets a little muddy for me. Am I being too sensitive or being distrustful? Am I looking too hard for him to mess up and creating a self fulfilling prophecy? I have read Mr. Unavailable and the fall back girl and understand it. It makes perfect sense. Now applying it to my situation is confusing. I am determined not to try and be the exception this time or ever again but also don’t want to opt out of or stop seeing someone who is just having his own minor difficulty and learning to adjust to it, but is a good guy overall. After all, I was a a doormat with low self esteem in my last relationship. I stayed with an abusive guy for four years. That reflects on my emotional health and choices. I would hate it if the new guy didn’t want to see me anymore when I a mess up, because although I am a work in progress, I might make mistakes too. I didn’t date for 7 months after the break up but recently felt ready but a little scared to test my new wings. If this guy ends up being an EUM, I will be so bummed out. At him, and myself for falling for it yet again after all my hard work. Not sure exactly how to move forward with this, but think I will put up the yellow flags and keep alert, communicate with him and believe what I see, not just what I hear. I also want to keep my cool and not get “upset”. Keeping my self respect in not tolerating crap but also acting with confident self respect when things aren’t going my way. This blog is like my textbook!
jenny
what do you mean by “mess up”? sometimes we do make genuine mistakes, we get a time/date wrong, forget that they hate a certain food, sulk because we’re tired.
but if he regularly doesn’t show up, doesn’t call when he says he will, disappears, flirts with other women, or lets you down … he has chosen to do that. i don’t consider that “messing up”. if we own our choices we should allow them to own theirs. it’s kinda patronising to assume that they don’t know what they’re doing. they’re adults.
Well said Grace!
The flip side of what Grace said is that if you have your boundaries firmly in place, you a) won’t put up with real cr*p on his part and b) will ask questions of him if you are unsure where’s he’s coming from. You are not at his mercy.
Yep Charla, totally right. Jennynic, you’re painting yourself into a corner by paralysing yourself with no options instead of using the obvious options in front of you.
Hey Jenny –
i’m in the same boat as you (i think you advised me a while back when i was having a freak out – thank you!).
NML talks about watching someone’s actions and then rolling back your expectations accordingly. Roll your expectations back or forth – don’t run for the hills just yet. There are different boundary zones (i think there was an article with a diagram in it – give that a re-read). Everyone’s boundaries are different. There are non-negotiables and then there are things that just need to be ironed out. If something gives you a niggling feeling, keep watching and be aware, talk about it, like you have been doing. Only you can decide if you can live with something or not. There is not textbook for that!
I have been watching my decent guy very closely. For the most part he is a good person, but occasionally he does something that really annoys me (and vice versa), or he goes a bit quiet. I have spoken to him about the annoying things and given a bit of space during the quiet periods (everyone has them, even me) and it has been working for me. No one is perfect, everyone has off days or times when they’ve got things on their mind. Only you know what your boundaries are and if he consistently crosses them then you have to think about whether you can continue.
Bear in mind also that things are always really intense in the first couple of months and then cool down a little as you get more of a balance between being together and maintaining your own lives.
Jennynic, if you know that he’s emotionally unavailable, you have your answer right there. It’s about how you feel, not just about clocking up a list of offences. Listen to yourself – it’s not about him. What about you and how you feel? You are uneasy. Either address the uneasiness or get out. If you don’t want any part in an unhealthy relationship, you’re barking up the wrong tree with an unavailable man. Being unavailable isn’t a minor difficulty and maybe it’s best for you to make up your mind about what is minor and major, after all it’s up to you to set your boundaries, know your limits, and address any concerns. The answer isn’t for you to sit there and feel more uncomfortable – the answer is to address it. You’re both participants to the relationship. If you really feel it’s that minor, deal with it. Speak to him. You’re not a school mistress – address the concerns. Unsure before you speak? – work out whether it’s internal or external Why are you waiting around for it to become something else entirely? And yeah – what you hear means shag all if it doesn’t match what you see and feel. No if’s or but’s about it.
Yes yes internal or external – an excellent tool for sooooo many things – priceless! By the way Nat – I am back on stage again! Ever so grateful.
Jennynic,my advice is to proceed with caution and if something really makes you uneasy,come right out and tell him.No point in brushing stuff under the carpet and then pretending it didn’t happen.You are entitled to your feelings and sometimes things need to be said and questions asked.You will learn a lot from his reaction.
It’s all a learning curve,Jenny and you’re doing great.There is no script to tell you how to proceed and there is no right way or wrong way.But as long as you’re cautious and stay within your boundaries [your personal electric fence] you’ll be fine.
Lots of hugs and best of luck to you.
What’s in it for you? Why are you continuing to gamble with yourself? At what point do you say enough?
A very good question to ask oneself. I know people with a good sense of self would have said enough a long time ago. Therefore for me when is my limit what does he have to do before I no longer care what he thinks does etc. I don’t know the answer obviously I gain something from contact otherwise I’d be gone.
Food for thought I know I’m not the exception maybe it is time to start acting that way.
Tulipa, I think the trouble is that you don’t have a limit. Even when you try one you go back. It’s not really about what he has to do anymore – it’s about what you have to do because quite frankly, the man, while he can do plenty of wrong, it’s never wrong *enough* for you. Of course you gain something from contact – you avoid letting go, you avoid dealing with your choices, you remain in denial. Of course you can’t have a good sense of self if you never deal with stuff enough to work on it. Every time you get that far, it all gets too much and you go back to him. You don’t want this to end. You’re no doubt thinking about how much you’ve invested and are afraid he’ll become Mr Perfect for someone else. It’s like you’d rather go bankrupt than run the risk of him improving by even as little as 1% elsewhere. You’ll no longer care what he thinks etc when you actually give a damn about you.
NML you said:
“You’ll no longer care what he thinks etc when you actually give a damn about you.”
From my own experience, that is the key. Love yourself first, care about YOU enough to value your instincts! Jennynic, if you are uncertain about someone and see “red flags” ask them assertively what their behaviour means. If you don’t like their responses and I suspect you won’t why waste your gorgeous life until someone REALLY prooves that the red flags REALLY mean something.
We’ve got ONE life and if you spend time on someone it’s time in YOUR life that you will NEVER EVER get back. Are they worth it?
)
I have only just read your reply NML.
You certainly hit the nail on the head ,there I am asking myself the wrong question… I would always ask myself What exactly does this guy have to do for you to say ENOUGH? And the truth is nothing because I am waiting patiently for a return on my investment. I don’t want to think that I meant nothing to him that he seriously just used for his own purpose. I said to myself and sometimes to him this is what I believe this is what I value and of course my actions triggered by events he set in motion screamed no you don’t or if you did you wouldn’t be here therefore I can do what I like because there you are participating.
And as hard as it is to admit to myself let alone here I don’t him to have a relationship especially a better one.
I don’t want to have nothing at the end of it all that is the most telling thing of all this. But the truth is I do have nothing just a man who will never say to me with words go away but his actions do and a man who lies to me and a man who cannot give me what I want.
So now I have to look at why I find this so appealing to want this relationship.
Thank you Natalie.
Tulipa, I’m going to tell you the truth – many people, even decent ones, don’t want it on their conscience that they have to say something that while necessary, is also very hurtful. When you throw in the fact that some of the shadier ones will say ‘Ah…what the hell, I’ll help myself to what’s on offer’ and you have a recipe for pain. In an ideal world he WOULD tell you to beat it, but to be honest, he’s SHOWN it in his actions. Yes he could do the decent thing, but you know what, it’s *your* job to do the decent thing.
You’re basically saying ‘I know that this is a shit situation that wholly detracts from my sense of self and I know he can’t give me what I want and I know he lies to me, but it is his responsibility to tell me that he’s treating me poorly and that he wants out. Until he explicitly says that he’s done with me, I’m not leaving’
You’re not helpless, you’re not being held hostage – you’re in an open prison of your own making. You can take a stroll to the outside world whenever you feel like it! You treat this man like you own him
When I first read your reply, Nat, I was shocked to be honest. I wanted to deny it all (of course I did) but I stopped and went away and really thought about what you had written and it is true. My behaviour for the past seven months has been me going no contact then when it came to me facing the truth I would run back hoping that this time there would be a different response from him hoping this time what he was saying was true and even then jumping in and “saving” the situation.
I have created my own prison and have chosen to reside there chose not to change me, chose not to do the decent thing by me, chose to check and re check my investment that produces nothing.
I especially didn’t like reading the last line ‘you treat this man like you own him’ that one line was like a sledge hammer knocking down my justfications for remaining stuck and invested.
I was SO close to contacting him today – sooo close! But before I did I just thought I would come here and see if I could come up with a reason not to and boom! Here you are! Thank you! You have saved me another kick in the face with a gentle but firm kick in the pants – just what I needed!
You’re very welcome Gaman! Keep the faith and stay No Contact xx
Oh, and I realized I’m still trying to believe, after four years of whining about an aspect of my work that will never change, that one day I will fall in love with this job because it is so many people’s ‘dream job.’ *Sigh.* It’s not going to happen, and I have invested more than a decade. Time to face th … wait, I think I feel an urge to call my ex AC!!
(kidding!)
Hilarious! But you have illustrated the point perfectly! And remember – it may be other people’s dream job, but it’s not yours. When are you going to live *your* life?
Liked that comment Magnolia, NML. These comments just don’t apply to relationships but life in general
)
Maybe people who like to be the exception to the rule (yes, that has definitley been me at times!) use it to justify their own position????
It took till I was in my 30s for me to realise that working within a system, or following the rules can lead to success in any area of your life. This could be with everything from saving money to dating to growing tomatoes!
Now I understand that I just didn’t like the rules so tried to be the exception – thus rebelling then when I stopped rebelling and accepted things…. miracles began to occur.
Natalie, you really have a gift! Thank you for sharing it.
“It took till I was in my 30s for me to realise that working within a system, or following the rules can lead to success in any area of your life.” Amen! People don’t save money by frittering it away – they can try, but they won’t be the exception. There’s a lot to be said for the rule.
Thanks for this Nat! After months of suspicion, resistance and anxiety i am finally trusting myself in my healthy relationship. I have been watching out for red flags and none have materialised, all of my worst fears have not come to pass. I am finally relaxing and enjoying, without taking anything for granted. I know I have made a good choice and that, if things don’t work out, for whatever reason, i will be absolutely fine.
Had my first weekend away since we got together. Missed him terribly, but we spoke on the phone while i was away and both had a great time doing our own social activities, independently of each other.
Oh and i saw some professional pics of my ex EUM and his new girlfriend (we have mutual facebook friends), which is really out of character for Mr i-don’t-want-people-to-know-i’m-attached/ keep-my-options-open. I felt nothing. I thought the pics were super cheesy and had a bit of a giggle, but that’s it. If he has really changed and found someone he can finally be with properly, then i am very happy for him. I am more than happy with what i’ve got.
AAAAAAAAMEN Minky! Finally! I have wondered if you have exhaled yet and it’s great to read this!
The last guy I dated showed some red flags pretty early on. And yes, I wanted to be the exception. But he also made it clear that he wanted to find a woman who wanted to be the exception. He seemed very aware of the red flags, and would readily admit to them being why his past dating relationships did not work out. He even said he knew he would have to change some things “for the right girl”. So, he continued in his bad habits, waiting for some wonder woman to step up and whip him into shape, and make him the man he was supposed to be. It was almost like he was giving any prospective future mate a “test”, all the while continuing to act like a man-child, blow hot and cold, flake out or not follow through on plans, getting drunk and/or high, still pining over his ex, etc.
I have been married before, and I knew I no longer wanted to be in the business of trying to change someone. He eventually broke up with me, met someone else within a few weeks, and seemingly changed these bad habits for her, and now they are getting married. Seriously??? Did I miss something here?
No you didn’t miss anything – he just wasn’t the right man for you.
It may be that she called him on the red flags that you initially saw and that was all it took. Or maybe he hasn’t changed – how long were they together before getting engaged? If it was really quick then it’s unlikely he’s changed.
Either way, it doesn’t matter. That ship has sailed (harsh as that sounds). You need to get yourself to a place where, when the right guy does come along, you will be emotionally prepared to engage. Eventually you won’t care that he’s with her (see my post directly above yours!). I am so glad i don’t care about my ex EUM anymore because it was a monumental waste of my time thinking about him. Worrying about any EUM or AC is an utter waste of time. Focus on yourself instead.
You are right, Minky. He was not right for me. I did call him on the red flags, but then realized that it might not be a healthy relationship if I have to “fix him up” in order to be with him. Plus I spent years married to a man with similar red flags, called him on those, tried to change him, but I was miserable. And the change would never last, since he was only doing it to placate me.
I guess what I am asking when I say did miss something, is the question of exactly how hard should I try to make a relationship work? Should I see the red flags and just turn around and run, or should I try to work with them on these red flags? From what I have read on here, they rarely change, so it’s a waste of time trying to change them. I’m just confused.
ICanDoBetter, unless you’re applying the wrong term, the reason why they’re called red flags is because they signal to abort mission, danger, pause, assess the situation, don’t proceed until addressed. If you were just married to someone with the same red flags, why would you then choose to be with someone else with the same issues? You already know the rule. What do you think is so different this time that the same issues should now make you the exception? I’m confused about why you’re confused!
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/knowing-when-to-work-at-your-relationship-part-one/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/knowing-when-to-bail-out-red-flags/
Natalie,
Thanks for your response. The things I am calling red flags are blowing hot and cold, flaking out or not following through on plans, getting drunk and/or high, still pining over his ex, etc.
From reading your site, and from my own experience, I would have said these were signs to abort mission and not stay and try to change him. He was different than my ex in that he knew what his issues were, and even said he would change for the right woman. I still saw this as a red flag, because why wouldn’t he just be the kind of man who could attract a healthy relationship to begin with?
So, yes, I did attract the same type of man again, but I did abort the mission, because I did not believe he would change. It just didn’t seem wise to me to invest in him, it seemed risky. That kind of change, in my experience, doesn’t last, because the change is not for themselves, it is to keep someone from leaving them.
My confusion comes from the fact that now he’s changed (or maybe he just seems to) for her. If a man outright tells me he would be willing to change, should I believe him? I’m talking about at the beginning of the relationship. I just didn’t place a lot of trust in these statements, and wondering in the future if I should?
ICanDoBetter, I’m going to be honest with you, I was somewhat flabbergasted by your comment.
“blowing hot and cold, flaking out or not following through on plans, getting drunk and/or high, still pining over his ex, etc” – one of these on their own is bad enough, but all of them? Put aside the first three, you cannot change someone not being over their ex. It is their job to do that *before* they get involved with you. If you get involved with them while they pine for their ex, they use you as an emotional airbag to get over their ex and provide the bridge to the new relationship.
Your concern isn’t him – your concern should be why you still don’t see what is wrong with this picture?
The whole changing for the ‘right woman’ is total assholery. The fact that he said that shows that he knows he’s a mess but takes no responsibility it – he believes it’s the job of the ‘right’ woman to come along and change him.
Why, would you meet a man and at the very beginning be looking for change? Why do all of your relationships have to involve them changing and carrying red flag behaviour? Instead of wondering why he doesn’t have healthy qualities, why are you not seeking healthy qualities? Because the fact is, while we all have some stuff to deal with, it is not the norm to blow hot and cold, to be a flake, to be a drunk and a druggie and to not be over an ex. It is completely unhealthy to be attracted to someone with addictions especially when you are aware of it from the outset and that is more of a concern for you to address in the first instance.
Has he changed? I doubt it but I really think that’s a non-issue. You made your decision, own your judgement. You don’t own him or his growth potential.
You should only be willing to believe someone is going to change when they have already been doing so for a period of time, they are doing it for themselves, they are willing to seek the help they need without your involvement and they are doing it independently of you anyway. If they have just started or not even started, it’s not to be believed and if you really have an ounce of care for them, you’ll leave them to focus on taking care of themselves as your needs cannot be met while they have to focus on dealing with the changes.
It’s so easy to just repeat the same patterns we learned growing up, and carry those into romantic and platonic relationships.
I want men to make me the exception, because somehow I must believe that it will make up for what was lacking in my relationship with my dad. Intellectually, I get it, but on some deeper level, I still struggle with the same patterns. After my divorce, I went to counseling once a week for two years, joined self-help groups, etc. I saw patterns from my childhood and I saw where these unhealthy beliefs came from. Lots of self-awareness. But to put that into actual real-world practice? Different story.
I have female friends to talk to, but their relationship habits are as unhealthy as mine. And then there are those who have overcome bad relationship habits, and are now married. I think they mean well, but I also think they have long forgotten the pain of the struggle. They dismiss my concerns in a sentence or two and move on to the next subject.
And then the dating advice sites out there that tell you exactly how to manage a man’s bad behavior so you can be the one to reel in the prize. Puh-leeze! (I admit, I bought into it for a while, because it totally fit in with my co-dependency.) I actually thought I was being noble, loving, understanding, etc. by standing by a seriously troubled man. I used to have a certain way to telling my story of past relationships, and now, when I really listen to what I am saying, it sounds insane
Baggage Reclaim is the first place I have come to where there seems to be a real understanding of what this struggle is like. I am learning, for the first time, in a practical, real-world way, to tell my arse from my elbow, and to tell the difference between bad behavior and normal relationship stuff that needs to be worked out.
I know for me, that this process doesn’t follow a linear path. I find myself doing quite well, and then having a setback. I am just so glad I can come here and talk about it with others who get it. I am very grateful for all of you on this site.
i can do
it’s not about working on red flags. i see red flags as a sign to abort mission. if a man cheats i’m not going to hang around “working with him”, ditto if he’s disrespectful, bad-tempered, unreliable. he’s not a fix-up job. The kind of “work” a relationship requires is deciding what you’ll do at the weekend, figuring out which parent you’ll visit for christmas, what kind of house you should buy, how to accommodate the fact that you’re a bear until you’ve had your 10am coffee. not stuff like he wants to try swinging or disappears for days on end.
as for them changing for the next woman, yes it does happen but it’s likely that the change won’t last. or if it does, he’s taken on board what you’ve said (finally) but taken it into a new relationship. sadly, he’s unlikely to instigate the changes in the current relationship because he sees you as someone with low self-esteem and low expectations who has put up with crap and doesn’t warrant his efforts. i know, ouch!
oops, i didn’t see nat’s reply, sorry to repeat the msg!
grace,
Thanks for your response. And it wasn’t repetitive to me, so I still appreciate it. You make some very good points, especially about self-esteem. I just found out yesterday about them getting married, so I am re-visiting the grief again. But, the fact that I still care about what he did or didn’t do with me, and what he’s doing now, is definitely a sign of where my self-esteem is at!
i can
i’m going to bang on about them changing some more as it’s a hot topic here. my ex from 20 years reconnected with me (i know, i know). he’d got married and had a daughter. he’d been on my facebook for a few years without incident. we would exchange the odd msg about his family. i thought he had settled down and had grown up. we meet up (you know where this is going!), and chat mostly about his wife, his daughter. i thought he was a devoted family man and i was really pleased for him.
then he starts sending me suggestive texts, pornographic images, telling me he should have married me, telling me he loves me, getting high on drugs and saying all sorts etc. in the end i had to ditch him (thanks to nat i did manage to avoid seeing him again; and we didn’t do eet).
so, really, he had not changed. do i feel glad about that? no. i feel sorry for his wife and i think it’s a shame. i didn’t meet her but she seemed nice and a good mother.
let’s hope for the sake of other women out there that these twerps DO change. but let’s not kid ourselves that they’ll do it for us when we’ve had ample evidence that they won’t.
and it’s not that they change for a better woman, they change for themselves, for whatever reason, and a DIFFERENT woman comes along. he’s not going to want to go back to a time in his past when he was behaving like a twit. i know i wouldn’t. i’d much rather strike out with someone new than go back to an old situation that i had screwed up. at the very least it’s just plain embarrassing!
Wow another spot on post to where I am right now! I’ve just read the article and will come back later to read the comments but what resonates with me is where you write:
“Even if they subsequently take risks, they have the rule as their baseline and they opt out of danger”
That’s me right now.I’ve recently met a man and I’m starting to see red flags.Nothing too blatant yet but a slight flakiness,possible unavailability and sings very much to his own tune.And I may as well be in a den with dinosaurs because I’m SO,SO,SO wary and ready to make a swift exit.No way am I going back to Assclownville!Been there,done that and never been the exception. But it’s disappointing though.You get your hopes up and it’s sickening when it turns out to be yet another non starter.
Thanks Nat!
I was just thinking of you about an hour ago so great to hear from you. I’m sorry to hear what’s happened but you know what – this is a relatively new relationship. I know it’s a pain in the bum, but this is what dating is for – discovery. You can take this is as an amber alert and proceed with caution or you can judge it on how you feel and whether you recognise it’s familiarity, and opt out. Only you know what you’re involved in. There’s a lot of non-starters before there’s a starter. Make sure that there are genuine reasons for your wariness and if there are, make a decision based on that. If in doubt, you can always ask him – that removes all ambiguity. (((hugs)))
Thanks a mil,Natalie,really appreciate your input.You know,if I hadn’t discovered you and your wonderful wisdom I’d probably stumble into those same old traps all over again but thanks to you,I’ve learned so much.Because even though we,here at BR,are enlightened, the dating pool continues as murky as ever.Same old casual behaviour which assclowns luxuriate in.
It’s not even a relationship with this guy.Two dates and lots of phone chats.But there’s a lot of chopping and changing re the third date,mainly on his part and that’s a red flag.Available people make plans and stick to them and things move at a reasonable pace.Also, he’s still regularly logging on to the dating site I met him on.A huge grey area,this whole business of logging on and chatting to other people etc which is one of the reasons I don’t like Internet dating.And I know you advise against it but,as long as we keep our eyes very wide open,it is a dating option, though far from ideal.
So,I’m being very careful and I may well come straight out and ask him where he’s at.I have no patience or tolerance for playing waiting games that tend to go on and just don’t do ambiguity.
My peace of mind comes first and I really see my boundaries as my personal electric fence.And that’s thanks to you.Big hugs.K.xx
kay
i’m not an expert on internet dating but i think some sites are better than others. for instance, i would avoid the free sites. also, avoid anyone who says “looking for fun” in their profile. and don’t you say it either. it means sex basically.
yeah, i didn’t realise that, i thought it meant going to the pictures or the funfair!
Grace,thanks for that but you wouldn’t believe how careful I am.Wouldn’t go near a guy looking for fun,email,hang out,anything with a whiff of the casual. But you know at least the guy just looking for fun and who openly states it,is at least being upfront and not misleading anyone.It’s these posers who come across all nicey nice and genuine but who are basically flip flapping idiots that are the real danger.And I’m feeling very disillusioned tonight because that’s all I ever meet though dating sites. You expend energy on these dipsticks hoping that each new one might just be the exception and he inevitably turns out to be a clone of all the others.
Sorry to rant like this,Grace and thank you again but like I said,I’m feeling down.
Thank you for this post Natalie! I became the dreaded yo-yo girl with a man and took him back because he said he’d changed. Well, it felt even worse when I ended up with the same crappy treatment from him, because I felt like “Oh, he’s changed into a great man (his words) and he still doesn’t think I’m good enough to have a relationship with!” Basically, he had treated me like a booty call in the past and I had enough and walked away. I realized that all he was offering when he came back was a “nicer” version of a booty call – lots of future faking, compliments galore, more text messages, more Facebook posts, an occasional drunken phone call to listen to his problems. Once the passive aggressive jerkiness/panic over what I might expect based on his promises started, I realized that he still had no intention of seeing if there was a possibility of a relationship between us. Then, when I was fed up with basically being an option, he begged me to be his friend…aka, a spot on the narcissistic harem roster. Not good.
In my case, I tried to be the exception to the rule of what our relationship had always been and got burnt. I don’t really know what his rule is with other women (I know there have been girlfriends, but lord knows what happened there), but it doesn’t matter in the end – it only matters what his rule was with me. I learned a valuable lesson best summarized as “If his rule as far as I go…clearly sucks, it’s a waste of energy trying to change it.”
I know what healthy is but I don’t know how to have it.
I aborted mission before I found this site with my ex eum.
I knew I was going to find something or learn something in the near future why all my relationships failed. I discovered core belief engineering but it was 1500 dollars for a day session which was the minimum requirement to join the program. I declined it and then went on and said I am going to find out a way cheaper way and this is HOW I found this site, thank goodness.
I think I can take action, state my boundaries but once I am alone with myself after the action has taken place I don’t know how to address my issues to the point that I recover completely.
Reading today’s post is my underlying issue in my life. I am not in my situation anymore physically but mentally I am still wondering why I wasn’t the “exception”? I am still wondering why it seem so close to me finally being cared for by a man but I couldn’t quite get there. I hold myself responsible for why at the age of 37 I can’t find true love with a healthy partner. I am living out the self fulfilling prophecy of that I know I am a good person and I do deserve love but it is just not out there for me and I don’t know why. I feel this way because I have done so much self work but to no avail. I keep ending up in the same place. I am good at opting out after a period of suffering but I am not good at finding someone healthy for me.
I am pathetically jealous at times of other’s in my life that have a relationship even though I know and they know it is unhealthy and I wouldn’t want their relationships because I have opted out of similar relationships. I can’t help how I feel and it is these feelings that are negging at me. I don’t want to feel this way anymore. I don’t want to keep living these self fulfilling prophecies.
I keep worrying about my friends being the exception to the rule with all their emotionally unavailable men and again think it is simply me that is the issue. I am the repelling one that is the problem in all the cases. Now reading this site, the fact that I have left unhealthy situations, and the fact that I live a pretty healthy life tells me all of this with not one doubt is complete bull. So why then do I have such a struggle with full recovery. I know better on a logical basis but my self doubts do keep getting in the way even though I counter them every single time with the word BULL. I don’t believe it when I say it but I keep going back to the same thing. I keep saying my ex is unhealthy, I am glad I am out but then why does his new girlfriend fight for him is there something about him I should of fought for and again the answer apppears in big letters BULL!!!
BUT I WILL GO BACK THERE AGAIN AND I DON’T KNOW HOW TO RECOVER MY SELF ESTEEM ENOUGH TO STOP GOING THERE.
I am away from him, I am surrounded by more positive people, I am not living in pain anymore, I am drama free, I am working on personal, posivitive goals. I like the serenity in my life but I miss the companionship, fun, and closeness but again I always counter not with him because he came with drama and crap. Why is it not out there for me, I keep asking. I know because I keep asking that can be the problem but when I put myself out there nothing comes my way. I talk to guys online, talk to guys at work, at the grocery store, out and about with friends. All these guys have approached me but not one for a date. I feel undatable. I have a lot to offer so I don’t understand why I am undatable.
I guess I want to be the exception to the rule because I feel I am always blocked by the rule.
BUT I KEEP WONDERING WHY I WAS NOT THE EXCEPTION!!!
I get it, stop wondering! How? If the rule keeps getting in the way, how do I break this pattern?
MH,
I do feel your pain and confusion in your post about wondering why you were not made an exception of. Sometimes when we get caught up in a spiral of negative thinking and wondering to questions we can never hope to answer then we are giving away all our self deternmination and power to find answers we CAN work on and understand. Negative rumination just robs YOU of your power .
You also said
” I am living out the self fulfilling prophecy of that I know I am a good person and I do deserve love but it is just not out there for me and I don’t know why.”
MH, you do deserve a good person and love in yourlife from someone special who will always be with you whereever you go and wherever you are. That person is YOU. Choose to love YOU first. You don’t know me and I don’t know you, but trust me when I say loving YOU first is the way to find the man of your dreams. That is why I am doing a blog at the moment to learn to love me first and then choose better choices in love and all areas of my life.
)
Actually MH what you think your self-fulfilling prophecy and what it actually is are two entirely different things. For a start, a self-fulfilling prophecy is what you predict is likely to happen based on your beliefs. You have predicted based on your beliefs about you and your capabilities in the context of relationships and life that you only have two options, hence you are going to live out life like you have two options. Life hasn’t decided that you have two options – you have – and that’s because it suits you to believe that there are only two options because if you believed that there was so much as a third one, you’d have to change your beliefs and you’d have to change your actions.
Why do you seem to believe that you are some sort of exceptional case that has singled you out as the one person in the universe who will not be made an exception to the unavailable rule? Why are you such an exceptional case that you’d believe that your friends would all have *their* unavailable guys revolutionise the wheel for them?
I’m not saying that you haven’t tried MH, but based even on those elements of your comment, it is clear that you are certainly not far enough down the road that you actually genuinely love yourself and live your life congruent with healthy beliefs. You don’t even believe in what you’re doing. If you did, there’s no way in hell you’d be measuring yourself against friends who are with unavailable guys. The fact that you are can not have you wholehearted in your decisions because you’re worrying that *they’ll* get the unavailable guy. If you believe that, you will not fully get behind your change because you’ll be holding yourself back.
And when you stop denying that, address your core beliefs and get uncomfortable in this department, and stop trying to shortcut it by only going *so* far but not far enough, life will gradually get better. You’re 37 – you’ve spent far longer being the old way than you have been this ‘new’ way that you claim you’ve been. Until you’ve given it that same dedication and time, you certainly haven’t tried enough. If you gave the same level of dedication that you did to unavailable partners to yourself and addressing your beliefs and resulting actions, you’d have dramatically different results. With so much brain energy pitying you, raking over the old relationship and your mistakes and being jealous and enviable of others, exactly how much brain space do you *have* for making change and being positive about you?
You have been the ‘old’ way for far longer than the new way. What did you think was going to happen? That you read something, make some initial changes and bam, man falls out of the sky? Get behind your decision, stop doubting yourself and address your core beliefs about love, relationships and yourself and judge your life based on you, not on others. Relationship insanity is taking the same baggage, beliefs, and behaviours and expecting different results. Which of those three have you not addressed? If you don’t like your pattern, stop pitying yourself, envying others and do every last thing it takes to change all of these aspects.
NML
it’s so true that we see and do what we believe. i’m 46 and i’m SURROUNDED by people in good relationships. my brothers, my sister, my colleagues (of all ages), my friends. i don’t know anyone close to me who is in a crap relationship. when i hear “there are EUMs everywhere, i’m approached by ACs all the time” i think “”wow, NO-ONE approaches me. i wish they would even if it was an AC” but then i remember on a night out i WAS approached by lots of twits but i brushed it off as insignificant and nothing to do with me. i didn’t hold onto it as some kind of truth.
it’s 2011 – is it really the case that the relationship world has got better than it was in my 20s/30s? no, i’m just seeing it differently.
i’m way way less cynical than i was before. there are plenty of terrific men out there, a steady relationshp ISN’ T boring, there’s nothing wrong with me, i’m a good catch, it’s not too late but, hey, even if it is (i can’t deny statistics), i’m perfectly happy to be single with all my wonderful friends and family to love.
Guilty! I was set on being the exception to the AC’s rule – you know, the one that he told me from the very start – that I wont repeat because even now, it hurts. But you know, my enthusiasm for him has gone finally. As much and as long as I hung on to something that would never happen, I still feel guilty for KNOWing that he’s a miserable human being and always will be. Some part of me felt I deserved no better. But recently, for the first time in a very, very long time, I thought – Hmm, I want to be around a person brings their own happiness to the table and does not suck out all of mine, so they can feel like they are alive. I gave it all away! good stuff, NML
I feel like there are two choices to my romantic life.
1. Be in an unhealthy relationship with an emotionally unavailable person.
OR
2. Be single so I have serenity in my life and can work through my goals without a new relationship screwing it up when it fails.
I have tried to not be this cynical but my life experiences keep ending up in the same spot. I work through my issues only to be back in relationship insanity but instead of looking over my steps and seeing myself doing the same things but expecting different results. I see myself doing different things and thinking differently however back there again.
My repeat bad experiences are causing me to have no trust. I will put myself out there sticking within the rule and find myself later saying why did I even think it would work out.
Like I said in my first reply to this post, I think I finally want to be the exception because the rule is always stopping me. I get tired and I want a breakthrough.
MH,
I think I may know exactly how you feel. I’m 29 now and once I had hit 25 I learned that, say, sleeping with them too soon was a bad idea. Ok, so I stopped doing that. The men I met still only wanted sex from me, while dating other women. I would throw my hands up and say “Well WHAT am I supposed to do now?!” I feel your frustration with making a genuine effort to change and ending up with the same results, I really do.
Ultimately, we can really only control our own behavior, no one else’s. I think the only answer is to just opt out as soon as the warning signs present themselves. However, it still hurts when that happens. No one wants to enjoy someone’s company, see the possibility of a relationship with them and then have to walk away because you know it’s never going to happen for whatever reason. Like you, I have some MAJOR trust issues now – both trusting men and trusting my own judgement. It’s hard because no one wants to be alone and so you put yourself out there and try to be optimistic (while of course heeding red flags and keeping your eyes wide open)…and it’s devastating to end up with the same result.
Hang in there – you are not alone!
Natasha,
Thank you, you hit it right on.
That is the frustrating part, we know how to opt out, we know when but we prolong it because we got invested. We know the drill afterwards. Your right opting out sooner is something I practice a lot lately but again it brings me back to why I think there is only two ways to my romantic life being single so I don’t have to deal with bs or the relationships are always going to be ambiguous.
I have been chased by guys trying to keep me sticking around for more of their bS.
My friend and I vented this morning and I wanted to cry because she was hitting it so perfectly when she said they act like we cross the line by wanting them to treat us with decency. When we leave they say things and act like I didn’t want you to end it I just didn’t want it to be as intense between us. We are the healthy ones knowing they are not able to give us a healthy relationship and when we leave they sound like they are saying I didn’t give you permission to do so everything was working fine as long as you were meeting my needs and when I say back off a little you just comply.
That there is the rule, they say jump and we are suppose to. They want everything on their terms and when you want mutual respect you are out of line. You break it off with them and in their own way they say I never said you could do that.
You are wanting just one of them to treat you like the exception by finally saying I am out of line for chasing you, pretending to be what you want.
But instead they are the rule they show you who they are and expect you to comply with their every need and not have any needs of your own.
You know this drill and you say no not again, this one was different, his ways were different how can I end up here again.
Thanks again for letting me know I am not alone, now if only we could regain our trust in ourselves so we could conquer our issues.
MH – you are so welcome 🙂 It IS nice to hear that people understand…when I first found this blog I didn’t realize how much it would help to know that I’m not alone!
Lately, I’ve been trying to think of things in a different context and maybe this will help how frustrated you are feeling. It’s not an earth-shatterer by any means, but I know it makes me feel better sometimes.
I’ve been trying to think of it as “Yes, my own dating life is not be moving the way I want it to. It hurts, it’s sometimes awful and sometimes I just want to say ‘screw it!’ and never try again. However, maybe I’m contributing to something bigger. By saying ‘No, I won’t do everything on your terms. No, I won’t accept your bs behavior and your equally bs excuses. No, I deserve to have a say in how this relationship develops (or doesn’t, as the case may be). No, you aren’t going to treat me as less-than and expect me to fall in line. Yes, it hurts that you won’t make me your exception…but HELL NO are you going to tell me that I don’t deserve anything better.’ , perhaps maybe it gets a little tougher for some men to be users and we end up with a lot less women feeling used, hurt and, well ‘less-than’.”
There is so, so much crapola going on the dating world (keeping it casual without actually saying so, FWB – or as I like to call it, Friends Where Someone Benefits And It Sure As Hell Isn’t The Woman), standing up for yourself is something to be proud of. I think you should give yourself a lot of credit for that – I sure do!!
Natasha: “FWB – or as I like to call it, Friends Where Someone Benefits And It Sure As Hell Isn’t The Woman” –LOVE it!!!!
That’s a good one. Or for a short version, HWB – HE Will Benefit (and the woman won’t). 😐
MH
I went down this route with my counsellor and he said it was more subtle than going speed-dating, internet dating, etc. there had to be a change within. i think inside you, you have to be ready and open to a relationship with the risk that entails.
i can’t speak from romantic experience as i’ve been single forever but i can say that my job has changed 100% for the better because i have changed. i’m as capable as i ever was, but i made the decision to commit to this job. i wasn’t going to just turn up because everyone has to work, i decided that i like this company, i like my boss and i’m going to put in a lot of effort, take on things that i would normally be scared of and be a lot more open to challenges. i’d like to take on more responsibility and really contribute something. and earn more! it may not sound much but it’s a huge change for me who tends to just “go with the flow” in a somewhat aimless manner.
for relationship success something has to change within you, it has to be organic. it’s not so much about doing as being. i can’t quite say what it is as i’m not there yet. and like my counsellor said, it’s subtle. but i believe i will get there.
and do try to stop thinking about this ex and his new girlfriend, it’s really a useless distraction and i think it’s preventing you from being fully and completely your unique and special self. whatever the answer is, it will have nothing to do with him. or any man for that matter.
Grace,
Thanks this is awesome advice.
You are right, it is something inside me that has to change and I haven’t figure it out yet. I do need to stop thinking of my ex and his new girlfriend because it is detrimental to me to continue on this way. Any suggestions on how to go about this?
I am proud of you for figuring it out in your work world and I wish you the best with figuring out in your romantic world.
I appreciate your insight and I look forward to learning more from you, Natalie and myself.
and learn from other’s on this site as well
MH, I completely empathise with your frustration.I’m 51 and I’ve had a livetime of what you’re going through.Sometimes,with constant romantic disappointments I don’t know how I’m still sane! I’m half joking here because thankfully, every other area of my life is going well.Up to age 49 when I discovered Natalie and she saved me, I hadn’t a clue what I was doing and I had major issues to work through.Now two years on I’m in a much better place but still ZERO success in my love life.Anytime I meet a guy who takes my interest [and that’s pretty rare] he turns out to be an assclown, EUM or something along those lines.And it is soul destroying.I do get extremely upset over it and though I recover pretty quickly and dust myself down,like you,I would have major trust issues and find it very hard to be positive going forward again.It’s an endless merrygoround which is not very merry.
My advice to you is to keep trying.Love is worth searching for so why give up? But stick rigidly to your boundaries,opt out very quickly and don’t give the benefit of the doubt.First impressions are generally right and if we pay attention we can suss out a guy’s character over the first two to three dates.The quicker out the better,though still hugely disappointing,I know.
Secondly,go easy on yourself. We can go overboard with all this self analysis. And because we’re drama queens we blow the whole thing out of proportion in our heads convinced that the universe is out to get us.Many of us here at BR are light years ahead of many out there as we are so enlightened.So there’s nothing wrong with you.It’s just that the majority of “available”guys over a certain age are dipsticks.Like choclates in a box,the good ones get snatched up quickly.It’s like looking for a needle in a haystack looking for the rare gems but they can be found. So stop stressin and obsessin,replace negative thoughts with positive,relax a bit and some day it will come good for you.
I don’t know what was going on through my mind when I thought I would try and be the exception, like I would get these extra Kudos for a job well done by proving my worth – just when sees how ‘special’ I am or not like his ex girlfriend. It was a weird little high I got from not being in a realty, but a fantasy. I noticed the pattern that I went with men who weren’t over their ex’s, I was always being compared – but in a funny way getting approval by being compared in a good light and having it taking right back because they were never really 100% emotionally invested with me and although these ex’s weren’t physically present, they might as well have been by hearing about them so much.
I can only hope that I will make healthy choices from what I have learned, this site has enlightened me and make sense of all the madness which has taken me years of development. All I know is if a man isn’t interested in a relationship, talks about his ex, etc… etc… it is literally repulsive to me, so I think I have changed.
Do I have this correctly: (A) If you are involved with a married man by definition he is unavailable. (B) The rule is: He will not leave his wife to be with me. Therefore (C), I will never be the exception to the rule no matter how much I do for him, think about him, and throw tantrums. Please somebody tell me it is more complicated than this and I’m missing something.
Natalie, you must have the patience of a saint. You keep saying things backwards, forwards, and upside down. I think I may have finally heard you with this post.
That is *exactly* it. It really is no more complicated than that, especially when by definition of continuing to be involved with them and them continuing to stay, they establish that they rule is indeed that they do stay with their wife. Trust me, if it wasn’t their rule, they’d have left way back when the affair started because they’d have realised that cheating was a sign that 1) they have issues that need addressing or 2) that it was time to leave. Them not leaving isn’t about you – it’s about them. You’re asking them to make you the exception to their own desire to have their cake and eat it. But if you could have your cake and eat it, you’d eat it too.
Oh my god, it is amazing how seemingly complicated issues can be so simple. I have struggled and so resisted such a simple, self-evident rule. I’m feeling a bit foolish but ever so grateful. You are so right, if he was going to leave, he would have left when the affair started. Again, darn simple.
“Them not leaving isn’t about you – it’s about them. You’re asking them to make you the exception to their own desire to have their cake and eat it.” Got this too from your wonderful post “Miss you, miss you but I’m not Getting Back with You.” When I asked if we belong together, why aren’t we together, he admitted it was him.
I hope I never have to find out whether if I could have my cake and eat it, whether I would. Being the other woman was totally miserable and I hope I would never to that to another person.
Today was a giant leap forward. Thank you Natalie and to all who have posted. He is blocked from all forms of cybercommunication. If I ever talk to him again, it’ll be if he shows up on my porch, with sushi, flowers, and on his knees, sans wedding ring and wife….since that will never happen, he is toast! Fairy tales suck. Thank you.
“You are so right, if he was going to leave, he would have left when the affair started.”
Hi Natalie and Runnergirl, this is absolutely correct. I’ve always said that to people if they are in or considering an affair or talking about their friends in one. From my observation from many years it’s been the same. If he meets another woman, realizes (maybe already had previously realized) that his marriage is over, then he will almost immediately leave his wife and take up with the new woman. He will do so with as little drama and strife as possible. He will not try to dig at his wife and make things worse, he will try to make it as clean a break as possible. He will let her have her way, try to leave her with respect, because he does not want to fight with her, he doesn’t want anything more to do with her, he just wants out and on with his life with out her. So if you see him in a lot of contention with the wife over petty issues such as sharing custody of the cat, or who will get to keep the hair dryer, then it’s a sign that he isn’t really wanting to move on and into a healthy relationship.
Even when they do leave, you’re stuck with a man who just left his wife for you. It will always be in the back of your mind…”if they do it with you, ‘they’ll do it to you'”. I dated a man who DID leave his wife when he met me, filed for divorce and moved in right away. After about 2 weeks…I started to wake up and think…wtf did I do? How will I ever trust this guy? He just left his wife and is declaring his undying love for me, didn’t he once declare his undying love for her?
The whole thing ended with me freaking out, taking all of his stuff to his old house where his wife was moving out, and dumping him back on her. They DID get divorced, and remarried on their anniversary date, and are still married 15 years later. Me being in the picture only allowed him to shirk dealing with what was going on in his relationship. Yuk.
MH & Natasha, it’s so helpful to read your comments, comforting to know others have such similar thoughts and feelings, especially when there are limited friends who can a) understand, b) have the patience and empathy to say anything remotely helpful!
On being the “exception”… my Married Man did leave his wife for me, after 3 months of dating, however there was 3 weeks of him dissapearing in the middle of this 3 months, when he was supposidly depressed. The 3 weeks -in high insight- were advantagous for him to make me more keen to accept *whatever* from him and also manage down my expectations. We were together about 1.5 years. … But my question (that’s been bugging me for sometime now) on the quest for being the exception is…
If I’d have advised him from the first meet (when he told me he was Married):”Get your house in order and move out of that situation/home etc then call me”, I wonder now whether we would have had a more happy and respectful relationship?????
Instead of the one we had which deteriorated with mistrust. Whilst it would have helped with respect and trust, I’m not sure it would have changed all his negative personality traits (he did have positive ones too) / negative ‘relating’ approach he used with me –which was Aggressive tone and attitude, swearing at me, possessive/jealous –then not bothered, I had to be contactable –other wise he’d get pi**ed off, but many times he said he’d call at the end of the evening & didn’t –which really upset me. He talked circles around me, creating confusion, snarled his teeth at me. Making comments about the women like Madonna’s body, how pretty lady gaga is etc. The comments about the X’s, quite a lot of negative ones at the start, in order to manipulate my behaviour. He’d say she’s a bitch, she didn’t make him a drink, or cook dinner, didn’t work, spent all his money, was too controlling, would moan at his son etc, so managing me not to do the same as he literally played to my need to be the exception – like a fiddle! I could go on listing the variety of narcissistic and less than pleasant behaviours.
Ultimately now, he has started a relationship with a foreign girl (I discovered within less than a month of our split, possibly sooner, or whilst we were together?? Who knows…) who lives abroad, in a country he visited with a mate one weekend whilst we were ‘back together to make it work phase’. So he must have either met her there, or literally gone to see her that weekend. He’s also seeing his Wife again, though I don’t know if it’s romantic or what.
So, please help, this question has been buggin me for ages… if I’d try to play it straight from the start could it have worked well –or would I have been waiting …and waiting… for him for a loong time??! Or could I have invested even more in that scenario and been even more dissapointed…?
LostEnergy,
Thank you for the lovely compliment – it really is great to hear how much sharing helps us all! To that end, this man sounds like a complete jerk. In fact, my last AC wasn’t married, but they had a lot of stuff in common…the commenting on other women, the possessiveness, the disappearing, etc. Natalie has a post talking about coulda, woulda, shoulda and how other people’s behavior is what it is – maybe if you’d said nothing, he would have been around longer…but he’d be around acting like a jackass. No man should snarl and swear at you! Another of Natalie’s awesome sayings goes something like “he’s not an assclown because of you, he’s an assclown anyway.” I really believe that with this man you could have done everything “right”, but he would still be a waste of space.
I can understand why you’d be questioning…these men tend to be excellent at making you think everything is your fault. I have been SO guilty of this. I think the most important thing is to trust your instincts. Does your instinct say that his behavior is the behavior of a good man? Also, if you feel like he judged you and your worth based on what happened when he was married…guess what? He was there engaging too and it take two to tango! It sounds like maybe there was some overlap with this out of country woman? In that case especially, don’t worry about what the heck he thinks of you. If he marked you down for not demanding he change his situation when you met, you can go ahead and mark HIM down for possibly being unfaithful to you and generally behaving poorly.
Sorry that was so long – you sound like a very nice person and I hate to see anyone blame themselves for someone else’s crappy behavior. I hope this helps!
lost
hmm, you really are losing energy on this. it breaks down like this:
1. most won’t leave his wife
2. it doesn’t matter what you do, how assertive etc you are, he won’t leave his wife
3. unless you are angelina jolie. i’m not saying she’s better than us but whatever her issues, i don’t ever see her meekly playing the OW
4. if he does leave his wife he’s still a man who a) cheated on his wife and b) probably has dodgy relationship habits regardless of who he is with
5. he could leave his wife AND then his new girlfriend (yep. happened to me) when he has tasted freedom, so he can shag about with all the other women out there
6. if none of the above apply BINGO you’re the exception.
it’s a long shot isn’t it?
@ Natasha & @ grace,
Thank you so much for your replies, really helpful. I do have a real tendanct to ‘coulda, woulda, shoulda’ and see stuff as ‘my fault’, even though I have some responsibility, I probably need to seperate self blame, making not such good choices and learning from that. Maybe this was a last ditch attempt to stay invested. Think I’m all out now:-) Its challenging when you look back and see good as well as bad, and I hear alot of ‘Well he’s a bloke…boys will be boys… That’s what guys do… You have to work at you relationship (I dont doubt this) and ‘mould your man’!! Not always helpful, these comments.
Natasha you’re right -it take two to tango, though accepting his own responsibility was never his strong point. And I’m so glad you say “I really believe that with this man you could have done everything “right”, but he would still be a waste of space.” that does help, wth my mindset at times:)
grace – I think your no. 5 says it all… these men are about as likely to change -as they are to look at thier own behaviour in any kind of detail!
Thanks again ladies 🙂
LostEnergy, your name is very apt. One of the keys to answers is to read back what you’ve written. Grace has done a fine job of showing the reality of being involved with a married man, but you miss a greater point. Why, when this man is seeing one girl in a foreign country and also seeing his wife, are you wondering whether if you could be Michael J Fox and go back in time, or Cher for that matter, whether if you had laid down the law at the beginning, you’d still be together? Do you know what that’s called? Denial.
If I had gotten up about ten minutes earlier, I wouldn’t have been rushing around like a blue arsed fly trying to get my daughter to preschool on time. If I’d had more self-respect and respect for other people’s relationships, I would never have got involved with a guy with a girlfriend and I’d have certainly told him to beat it when it became apparent that he wasn’t going to leave. But I didn’t.
You seem to think that telling someone to leave their wife gives you a respectful relationship. Being a respectful person who acts respectfully to themselves, others, and the people they affect begets a respectful relationship. Hence you could have told him to leave but if he is someone that behaves disrespectfully (which he is), he either wouldn’t have left or would have and then would have disrespected you and the relationship.
If you are with someone whose rule is to disrespect and you persist in being there trying to change them, they will continue to disrespect you and all routes lead to the same painful juncture – disrespect.
You’re living in the past – good luck with that – it’ll get you nowhere. You’re obsessing about something and someone you can’t control – good luck with that too. Own the decisions you made. Stop denying the reality of him.
Wow NML, Thank you, You’ve put it clearer than day, thanks for making this crystal clear! I soooo needed this! It’s like a weight being lifted, when you clear these issues up Natalie:-) I will go back and re-read this, coz it’s so heling me towards freedom, rather than being shackled with my dodgy mindset on him. Your comments are very liberating, and help me to get both feet in reality, Yes I’ve spent alot of time with Denial, way tooo much it appears.
Thanks so much for your response and this Website, it’s a lifeline, Natalie:-)
Oh yeah, it is so liberating and symbolic to delete him from all cyberspace communication. I’m going on a total cyberspace diet, except for BR, of course.
It really is liberating! You are on track, girl!
It was about two months after going physically NC that I took dude’s number/name out of my phone, and three months before I blocked his email, so that I couldn’t even have the “satisfaction” of knowing he was getting in touch. Each brief satisfaction of the ego wasn’t worth 48 hours or so of feeling stirred up and reminded of all the doubt and negativity that I was trying to release. Then I went through a couple of holidays where I wondered if he was trying to get in touch and had to remind myself I had decided I didn’t want to know. I wonder less and less. One day I’ll not even remember to wonder when I last wondered.
I’m in New York City right now (fabulous!!) and there are lots of memory triggers here, but I am making the city mine. New memories, each day another day to add to the I Like Me project. [The project is currently in its fifth real month. A few start-up glitches. But I expect the Project to be firmly established by the end of the year, be in a growth phase for at least the next couple years. I expect the I Like Me project to run for the next, oh, sixty years or so.]
Magnolia (formerly Lynn!)
Hi Magnolia, I really like your “I Like Me project”. I think I’ll start an I Like Me project too. Good for you creating your own memories in NY. I’ve finally re-restablished my routine and re-claimed my house and my stuff so I know how it is to work through those triggers. It sounds like our initial phases of NC were similar. Blocking him from cybercontact has been the best part. You are right about the momentary satisfaction when he emails a little joke followed by two days of grief and stirred up emotions. It isn’t worth the ego stroke, particularly when I know what he’s after and it isn’t in my best interest. This post so struck me. Not only am I not that woman anymore, I’m not struggling to be the exception to the rule. God, trying to be the exception to the rule took so much negative energy.
It sounds like you are doing great. Thanks for your support and comments. It’s nice to know there are others out there and that you are doing so well. One day, we’ll both not remember to wonder when we last wondered. Have fun!
I think I am starting to understand how being an exception to the rule is how I was operating until now. I was always falling for the same guys: looks mysterious, oozes ambiguity, seems a little full of himself and always makes it a challenge for me to get their attention. Nice guys were boring, and if a guy showed signs he was genuinely interested in me I’d literally feel shivers down my spine and would feel the urge to RUN.
Old habits die hard, but I’d be damned if I continue on like this! Just a few days ago I saw a guy that matched this typical assclown I’ve always been attracted to, and you know what? I’m embarassed to say but I felt myself being attracted to him. After all the reading here! And all the realizations! But what is the difference this time around? I caught myself being attracted to him. And this awareness helped me kill off the attraction by remembering everything I’ve read here.
I hope there will come a day when this automatic attraction to becoming the exception will go away. I know it will take hard work, but I owe it to myself to do this.
BTW, today marked 4 months of NC, and it feels great to look back and realize just how much I have learned over this period thanks in part to stumbling on this site two weeks after I started the NC. I am still healing and getting to know myself better, but boy is it a painful process!
I love love love this post. This website is a godsend.
What was particularly hard for me was that my boyfriend of two years left me for the other woman! They’re still together so I hear (though I am not in touch). She was the exception to the rule. After that I got involved with the guy with the ‘open’ relationship with his girlfriend, and it took talking with my therapist to uncover that because of my experience with my ex, I was, in a way, trying to win with him where I had lost before. The other woman had taken my man away, so if that was successful, maybe it could work for me – even though I was also horrified at the idea that I would be breaking another woman’s heart. In my case, however, being the other woman did not make me the exception. Heartbreakingly, painfully, I had to discover that I was, in fact, the rule, and that he was not going to leave his girlfriend anytime soon, and if he did, it almost certainly wouldn’t be for me.
I’m NC, but I still have bad days due to the whole mess of the past few years and all this crap. It gets easier with time, however. I’m sticking to the rules from here on out.
Learning
Having been cheated on by almost every guy I’ve had a relationship with, after a while it’s very easy to think, well here’s a gorgous guy that seems to want me, so I’ll take what i can get, coz that seems to be what everone else does! So I really empathise with your decisions and consequent feelings. Reading this site is really helping me to heal and move on, hope it does the same for you 🙂
Great article.
I think that all of this boils down to: Do we really love ourselves? Because if we really & truly did we wouldn’t stick around trying to make a sow’s ear into a silk purse would we? When we find out that we are not being treated with respect & kindness we would move on & not waste our time. It really comes from a deep seated lack of love for ourselves that keeps us in these dead end non-sensical relationships. Also boils down to: Living authentically. Being 100% true to ourselves. I am a prime example of the folly of not living true to my own values & morals. I knew what I wanted for my life but bottom line I bent when I should have stayed rigid, gave my ex the benefit of the doubt when he did not deserve it. He showed over & over that he had very little regard for me in his ACTIONS, of course his WORDS were flowery & all full of charm though, this is what hooked me in time & time again – that and he was devastatingly handsome. Too bad there is nothing of substance on the inside to match the outside. Again, I would have to examine my own “issues” in terms of that…. why did any of these things make me forget who I am, and what I deserve?? More work to be done on myself. Time to put the lion’s share of responsibility for the whole debacle back on the appropriate set of shoulders – MINE. (Said lovingly of course:)
Thank you Natalie.
TJ
That was one awesome post that I completely needed to hear. Trying desparetly to end a 1 year 3 month relationship. I am involved with the master of flowerly words and most recently a commitment to building a foundation with me. He even put a lot of thought into it continues to have no regard for my feelings or boundaries. Single most difficult time in my life! My gut has been telling me for months to run as fast as I can from him but me heart hasn’t been following suit. Help!!!
Hi Erin,
All I can say from personal experience is to sit down and have an honest conversation with yourself about what your needs and expectations are for a relationship. If you are not getting what you deserve & you have communicated what you need from the relationship & you aren’t getting it, then it is time to think about ending it. You may even find it necessary to go no contact. I went NC & it is what saved me from wasting anymore time on a deadend situation. I won’t say it was easy, it was one of the hardest things to do ever, but you can do it. Have the courage to want something better for yourself. I look back & realize I was so wrapped up in my ex & what he wanted & needed and put so much energy into my flailing relationship that 5 years of my life sailed by! I can’t get that back. I hope that you truly do read the posts on this site & all the articles because it was a lifesaver for me.
Good luck,
TJ
I can’t believe I have found myself here again. After 3 months of NC (with about 3-4 conversations during that time where he played with my mind and hinted that he wanted to soon try and have a relationship with me) he shows up at my office four days ago out of the blue (after 5 full weeks of absolute NC) and proceeds to tell me – he wants me back, how wonderful i am, that my calm nature scares him, that i am perfect material to be a mother and wife, that he’d love to have a baby with me, that he has been celibate since we broke up 5 months ago, that no, he didn’t dump me when he stopped talking to me for one month when i asked him for more of a commitment and to stop feeling like a booty call, but rather he was going through a tough time with his divorce and daughter’s custody case and ‘retreated’ from everyone into himself, that he is coming ‘back for me’ and when he puts his mind to something he gets what he wants. After 45 minutes of that and him kissing me passionately in the elevator when i escorted him to his car, i spent the next six hours feeling like i had literally had a drug fix and when he called at 10pm to say goodnight and said ‘we’ll speak tomorrow’ that night, it only made me more convinced that he was serious this time and we were going to get back together. This time, because I had told him my reasons for breaking up with him in the first place, it would be different because he knows my expectations, and by him coming back, it means he is ready to deliver. Fantasies and daydreams about a blissful life together, love, marriage and babies ensued. I knew that my ‘instincts’ had all along been right, this was the man for me.
Four days later I have not heard a peep from him. I feel foolish, humiliated, insulted, incredulous, but more more than anything else, I feel I have let myself down and that the months of trying to set my values, fix boundaries, no contact and living authentically (and believing that I have done so) were just illusions, and I really am so pathetic and so intrinsically lacking in self esteem that i will ‘always be that woman’. I feel like i have had the horrible misfortune of getting entangled with a narcissistic psychopath who gets a sick twisted pleasure out of seeking me out to mind fuck me. I imagine that he is sitting somewhere now remembering the look of hope and desparation in my eyes when he fed me the bullshit, the future faking, and laughing his head off at how sad I am to have believed any of it. I can’t believe that I am back to square one, to the feelings of desperation and neediness that I had crawled away from when I started no contact. I can’t believe that after all these months of patiently reading and absorbing Natalie’s wisdom and advice, I have not lost my desire to be the exception, my desire to be the one, my desire to prove to myself and the world that I am special. I can’t believe that I have not lost my deep down sneaking suspicion that there is something inherently unlovable in me, and that I am destined to spend my life being the other woman, the casual chick, the girl i had a ‘thing’ with. Never the girlfriend. Never the bride. Never the wife. Never Chosen.
i can’t take this. not again. not when I was sure i had come so far. But I still believe that I can stop being ‘that woman’. I still believe that I will set values, have boundaries and live authentically and one day, one day, meet a good man who treats me with trust, care, respect and love, and wants to have a committed, intimate, meaningful relationship with me. And I am also so sure now that he will never be that man as he simply doesnt know how to be that man.
I have blocked his number using a program I found on the internet this afternoon. This way I don’t have to struggle not to answer his calls or debate for hours after whether to call him back or wonder if maybe this time he was calling finally be with me properly. I simply don’t have to know. I will never allow him into my home or office or have a conversation with him again to allow him a chance to mind fuck me again. I read that the first step to recovery in AA is acknowledging that you are powerless against alcohol. I have today acknowledged that I am powerless against him. So I am not fighting anymore but simply pray that I will never hear from or see him again.
I don’t know if anyone will read this as this is an old post but if you do, please wish me well.
Sumumu, what a horrendously awful thing to happen and my heart goes out to you, which is more than what you’ll get from Hollowman, the man with no soul, conscience, and far too much sales pitter patter.
You know what, everything you have done isn’t gone to waste. Hold your head, get back up on the wagon and heed the lesson which is, don’t try to take a shortcut with your self-esteem and love. While it would be great to be able to spend a few months NC working on ourselves and then shazam, our ex that treated us like a booty call and disappeared when asked for more commitment miraculously uses the same time to resolve his issues and decide what he wants, that’s just too easy and a shortcut. While there are some people who with the passage of time, recognise their issues and deal with them, if someone’s personal rule is to use you and say and do whatever it takes to get what they want, you will be hurt by that rule. Be thankful that you made the right choice in going NC, that you absolutely know now that he is a very messed up individual, and lift your head up. Should he ever try to contact you, meet it with a closed door. Don’t look for any explanations, an apology, nothing. Push the flush handle and flush him out of your life.
What he has done is cruel. Cry your tears, be angry, mourn the loss of what you thought might be…and then get on with your life. You will have what you want and better with a better person. (((hugs)))
Sumumu,I have just read your heartfelt post and just wanted to reach out to you with a huge cyber hug of friendship and support.I’m am so very sorry to hear that you’ve had this dreadful experience.Of course you must feel wretched but Sumumu you have no reason to feel small or ashamed.You did nothing wrong.You were stalked,duped and victimised by, as you rightly put it,a psycho narcissist.It’s like being raped where the victim indeed feels small and cheap afterwards but you must see that you have no reason to feel like that.You were taken in by a smooth performance as any of us would have been.
So,as Natalie says,cry your tears and climb back on the wagon.We have all fallen off occasionally but your earlier work will stand to you and you will be back to your healthy ways again soon.
Take good care of yourself. Lots of hugs and support.xx
Sumumu,
I feel so moved by your post. I have been there too and I don’t know where to start. Natalie’s response is so perfect, I cannot add to it, other than to say there is another soul in the universe who has experienced similar pain. No, no no…we are NOT destined to be the “other woman” and/or NOT the “chosen”. Your words so resonate with me. Let’s push the flush handle together and move on. There could be folks out there that actually appreciate us????
Sumumu,
I just wanted to say how deeply sorry I am to hear that this happened to you. I too was a fallback booty call that was told I was finally going to be “Chosen” and when it didn’t happen I was beyond devastated.
The other ladies have done a way better job than I could ever do of offering advice, but I wanted to show my support. Please know that you aren’t alone and I am rooting for you!!
Wish you well. I have nothing else to add to what everyone else has said. Flush this inhumane piece of waste to the toilet and hold your head up high. Lots of people would have done the same as you. Good luck and really hope you are feeling a bit stronger reading all the encouraging comments.
Sumumu,
I am so sorry for all that you have been through. This was such a cruel act he played , there is something seriously wrong with this man.
Please keep on reading and come back for support. We’re here for you.
Hugs
You are a very good writer, and great at expressing your feelings. For these things alone, you shoud feel great about yourself!
Now for my crude writing: This guy is an asshole. Make that with a capital “A.”
The only ways to deal with him are two:
1. The way you are, which is the way Natalie advises; and/or:
2. Playing HIS game (before you do #1, above–but you have to do #1, period, whether you do this, #2, or not!): when he comes ’round one day, which he will, what you wil do is ACT all lovey-dovey, LIKE you adore him, AS IF his words and actions are All-Important, AS IF you forgot everything, and that you have forgiven him…and, if the subject comes up, AS IF you are totally understanding of his predicaments (daughter, custody, yadda yadda yadda). Then YOU tell HIM that you can’t wait to speak again, that you will call him. If he asks “when?” then say “tomorrow, as soon as I can.”
Then you pull the rug out from under him.
Don’t take his calls (at home or at work).
Don’t answer his calls/stalks to your door (at home or at work).
Don’t let people at your work let him near you! They should give VAGUE answers about your whereabouts, too.
Do unto others as they do unto you.
Treat men the way they treat women.
Do the hot and cold.
Be ambivalent/ambiguous/adoring-then-distant/scarce.
Tell his friends that you really really really like him, but that he “doesn’t know what he wants.”
Men want women who adore them.
BUT YOU DON’T GIVE THE ADORATION ONCE HE HEARS FROM OTHERS OR THROUGH YOUR IMPLICATIONS (via your own actions) THAT YOU “ADORE” HIM.
He will be so confused he will lose it!
🙂
Used, I get your point but I think she has better things to do with her time than put so much energy into pissing him around. Just because someone is an asshole doesn’t mean we have to be an asshole too. That’s totally lacking authenticity. And game playing. If they’re that much of an asshole, the best revenge is not to give them the steam off your pee, never mind the time of day. I have seen women do exactly the same thing that these guys do so this is not even a man vs woman issue.
I agree with what you say, but I think this guy has gone too too far, and is verrry diabolical about how he goes about things.
And, yes, women can be just as diabolical. But, based on my experience, men, on average, play more of these games, and the women are more straightforward.
Men are unfortunately the ones with the powers to ask women out, and to ask women to marry them. Which are the Ultimate powers in the dating world. They shouldn’t HAVE TO play games–they have all of the powers, after all, and the powers only become stronger as people get older–so the fact that they DO play games makes them highly comptemptible. Like this guy! If he is such a sorry ass due to the divorce, he of all people shouldn’t be a jerk to anyone!
I am all about being a bigger person, in 99% of all cases. But this guy deserves the treatment outlined about. Forget authenticity. If it were me, I’d be authentic LATER ON, after making a fool out of him via the methods above. (And I have done this, too. And, yes, once I did make a fool out of the EUM. it actually got very boring. But his friends look at me as though I am their idol. Why? Because no one expected sweet little nice-person, quiet me to be that way. That part, about the friends’ admiration, is awesome!)
Too much pain and energy has already been put into this, I think the healthiest thing would for her to try to get her life back.
Revenge and drama serve no purpose!
If you pick up a hot coal with the intention to throw it at another – it is your hand that gets burned.
I can see your point and have been at that “wanting his blood on my hands” point before. It does not serve you – it only elongates the process. Do not give into wrath – do not lower yourself to his level – you’d be paying him a compliment. “See I am better at the game than you”. I didn’t give in to wrath although at times the urge was almost unbearable. I can hold my head up high and know what I did was the next right thing. Work on me. I am a work of art – a masterpiece created by my own hand – worthy of hanging on the refrigerator.
Well, all’s I can say is, at the time I executed revenge, the wife was being just as bad as him, even worse, as she not only went against another woman, but also another woman who had shown support of her through all times. So, as humiliating him worked to give him what was due to him, it also taught her a lesson, too, and made her realize how lucky she was to have had my support before.
My reputation is still that of a nice person with integrity.
But, as to the people concerned, also that os someone they CAN NOT mess with.
My fingers didn’t get burned by any coal. HIS did.
Another great post by movedup 🙂
My two cents…
I believe that to engage in any way with them is to show them attention… doesn’t matter if it’s good attention or bad…no matter what flavour you go with it’s still attention and that is EXACTLY what they are looking for – to get under your skin. My dear brother echoed what Nat said above when she said “the best revenge is not to give them the steam off your pee” when he told me on no uncertain terms that “there was NOTHING I could have done to get revenge on my ex that would hurt him because “he doesn’t GIVE a damn”. Anything I would of done would only give him an ego boost. Don’t give him the satisfaction.”
These words I didn’t really believe in my foggy stupor at the time, but I followed his sage advice, turns out he was 100% right. Out of all the things I could have done, walking away clean and going complete NC was the smartest thing I have ever done.
I say let the AC wake up one day and realize that you don’t give a damn enough to even give him the time of day. Checkmate! Game over.
TJ
Used, you are just wrong with your statement, you are not the bigger person by doing that. I have been reading here for years and so have you, but this guy from back then is still eating at you, seems that you have not moved on. Playing games is such a waste of time and who wants to be his friends idol? I sure don’t.
His friends admirations? Who wants that? I sure don’t.
You need to let go…
Used, you may get the admiration of the exes’ friends…but if they are friends with your AC ex, then their criteria for admiration are probably questionable. You may get THEIR admiration, but what about YOUR admiration for yourself?
I am embarrassed by how many outright cruel and evil things I’ve done in the name of revenge, and the exes have just gone on with their lives while I was toxic and rotting away on the inside with my hatred and hurt. If I ever am blessed with the kind of relationship I dream of, the kind that I am only just learning is possible, how will it look to a potential partner for life if I reveal the nasty things I’ve done in the name of ‘getting even’?
When the ex lied to the woman he left me for about continuing to sleep with me, I tape recorded us together and sent her the tape. I felt totally justified and righteous at the time. It never occurred to me to opt out of the whole disgusting sordid mess. Do you think I ‘got even’? Heck no. I festered and they stayed together and she outright refused to believe the tape was real. They were together and made each other miserable for 12 years after he and I broke up. All my ‘getting even’ did was reflect to myself how desperate and unhealthy I was. His friends admired me, sure, and years later he can joke about it and tell me he could just never hate me, but did I feel good about myself? No.
Then there was time I had started dating someone else before getting over a different ex, and broke the current guy’s trust by inviting the ex over pretending I wanted to get back together with him after letting him beg and literally cry for a while (I’m sure many of the women on this site can identify and if I can possibly apologize on behalf of all AC’s right now I do). The current guy really really cared for me, and even though he took me back, I couldn’t forgive myself and clung to some seriously nasty behavior (oh, and because I was so grateful for him taking me back and felt so guilty thus began another dysfunctional, painful, damaging relationship). Did it hurt the ex? Yes. Was I high on the power trip and did I feel justified? Yes. Did I feel like utter crap? Yes yes yes, and for YEARS. Some revenge!!
Being able to out-crazy and one-up someone was my defense mechanism learned growing up in a violent home. Hate IS toxic attachment. It did not and does not continue to serve me as an adult, nor will it serve you. I had to face the hard truth that I was addicted to my pain, addicted to my woundedness, addicted to my own toxicity, addicted to being right, addicted to my own self-pity, addicted to power trips and manipulation. Once I accepted that, then I started to get healthy very quickly and am more and more able to live and delight in the present moment. It’s a whole different life, this letting go of the past and resentment thing…it really is like being reborn!
It’s what it took to fully let go, given wifey’s actions more so than his.
Used, what can I say? I quite like your diabolical plan (the little devil on my shoulder does), but the little angel says it wouldn’t be worth our time and energy. But I disagree with what you say about men having the power to ask women out. We have that power too, as long as we keep it CASUAL and we don’t make a big deal out of it. Just like you asked any of your friends! And if he starts making excuses, at least you know where you’re standing from the beginning instead of waiting for him for God-knows-how-long to do the asking. After all, it’s just about that “discovery phase” that dating is! 😉
While I believe in my heart of hearts that taking the high road is ultimately the best choice, I’m going to say I totally understand where Used is coming from. AC’s tend to choose women who are decent sorts. (I have a dear friend who never treated her AC badly because it would have been beneath her to act that way.) And time after time these guys get away with no more consequence than a few angry words because the women don’t want to behave badly themselves.
If you have the cojones to pull off the scenario Used describes then I’ll tip my hat to you because these men offend my sense of cosmic justice. And I’d like for someone to make them see how their behavior feels, even though I don’t think I could do it myself.
As for not being worth one’s time and energy to play this out, that’s an individual choice. If I knew I were going to be suffering and expending emotional energy on his actions anyway, maybe I’d choose to make an active choice to achieve some sort of satisfaction and resolution rather than passively waiting for my heart to recover.
And Sumumu, I echo everyone’s opinion: this man is a possible sociopath. The book He’s Scared, She’s Scared tells stories like this and helped me understand the panic that lies behind such totally inexplicable actions as his, I recommend it. But there’s lots of jerks out there and he’s gone outside the extremes of jerkiness into something probably clinically diagnosable.
Were I you, I’d have contacted him on Day 2 after he reappeared and cursed him out and told him to never ever contact me again. That’s being too generous, as only a tragedy in the family should have kept him from contacting you for 48 hours. If there is ever a next time with anyone, and I hope there isn’t, try giving him a piece of your mind before you go NC!
Hi Sumumu,
I just want to echo what those who have responded to you have already expressed. This jerk went out of his way to mess you around. People like this are too effed up to have heartfelt hopes and dreams and some need to try to stamp out the beauty and strength of those who do maintain hope and a generosity of heart. Just because he came and stepped on the fragile green shoots of the self-esteem and independence you are cultivating doesn’t mean the green shoots are anything but precious and worthwhile. He just doesn’t want anyone to have what he can’t grow in the barrenness of his own inner wasteland. And what he certainly doesn’t want is for you to have enough time to realize that in fact, at your core, is the strength of an oak.
Oh and also want to doubly echo the comment about your writing. You write so compellingly, authentically and clearly. Don’t undervalue that great skill.
Excellent, Magnolia! I think she is terrific, too!
“the best revenge is not to give them the steam off your pee”…
classic
Hi everyone!
I have a question for all of you. It’s still about my EUM ex and about various girls who, just like me, have tried / are trying to be the exception to the rule. A few days ago a female friend of his bought him a surprise-gift: a ticket to an event in another town, without him knowing it. There was no special occasion, so it was not his birthday or anything similar. A mutual friend of ours told me that this girl had been flirting with him for a few weeks now. Personally, I find this girl’s gesture quite humiliating: I would have never dreamt of buying a surprise trip/gift to a guy who is not actually my boyfriend. To me it looks like a desperate attempt / shortcut to his heart… Am I being old-fashioned?
Sandra,
My concern is why you’re interested in this? This is between them.
Would I do this. No. But, this would not be any of my concern. Why I’m saying this is is because by staying involved in this guy’s business, is only going to keep you very stuck. I hope you wish to move on?
Good luck
Allison, it’s nice to hear from you again! Well, in my situation, for the past 2-3 months he had started to show interest in me again, and being SO consistent and SO believable, that I almost gave in again. Our situation is a bit “tricky”, because we are both part of a youth organization, and therefore we see each other regularly, whether we like it or not. As little as a couple of days before this argument, I returned from a trip abroad (still for the organization), and he was flicking through my pictures, and a friend told me he was anxious whether I had met other “eligible” guys or not. But, this Saturday we had to make a group trip, and he backed out because of this girl who got him this surprise present. Hence, a big argument between him and I, and hence me feeling really down and really confused. This story has been going on & off since last summer, and now I feel like I’ve had enough! 🙁
Date other men.
If he really wants you, he won’t want to lose you.
You gain nothing by being in the sutuation you are in now (he dates, or samples, around, you don’t).
Yeah, I think this is exactly what I’m gonna do! Date, or at least research other options as well. It would feel… empowering! 😉
Sandra,
Yes, I think it is a desperate attempt, if she is trying to be more than friends. When my ex and I were involved in an unhealthy-post-breakup-FWB relationship, I actually considered giving him a present for his birthday. I considered it for about a day, then decided it would be humiliating and desperate, and I would lose even more self-respect. All he did for my birthday a few months prior was send a text message. So, I decided my actions were those of someone in a relationship that did not exist.
I think Allison is right about staying stuck by staying invested in their business, which is really none of ours. HOWEVER, I realize that it’s a big leap to get to that place. I think we all go through this process, or at least most of us do. We are still doing the post-mortem relationship investigation. It would be wonderful if we could just magically shut down and never think about them again, but unfortunately most of us are not wired that way.
So, for what it’s worth, please know that you keeping a healthy distance, not trying to win his heart with gifts (which won’t work, by the way) is a healthier path. Take this girl’s actions as an example of what NOT to do.
Eh… The “healthy distance” is my problem. Sometimes I wish I took a break from the organization, just to avoid seeing him for a while. For the sake of my own nerves! In these days, the less I see him, the better. It would be a pity, because I really like this activity, not to mention that we are both board members. Plus, what am I going to tell the others? We are all good friends, but very few of them know the whole story about me and this guy…
Sandra
Every girl who is trying to get this guy is humiliating herself. Including you. Okay, you didn’t buy him a present but you’re talking about him, finding out his business, gossiping about his various women, and letting him string you along.
It doesn’t matter what “the others” think. They are feeding the drama and watching this soap opera unfold. That doesn’t make them bad people – it’s just office gossip though you don’t work in an office. I wouldn’t allow that to determine my actions.
By all means take a break. Go on holiday for a week. Come back and tell your colleagues you’re no longer interested in hearing about x, it’s all old history. Keep things professional and cordial with him but no more. And maybe find new friends and activities that have nothing to do with him or them. You all seem to do a lot together and sometimes you just have to … do your own thing.
That is a tricky situation, and only you can decide for yourself if you need to take a break. It’s frustrating, I know, when you are both invested in a shared activity like that. And it probably feels a bit unfair that you should have to give up something you love doing. Really, only you can decide what is best for your mental health.
Sometimes, that healthy distance may not necessarily be a geographical distance, but it would definitely require a firm set of boundaries for yourself. And if you are not at the place where you feel strong enough for that, then maybe an ACTUAL distance would be better. I really do understand how tough that situation can be, as my ex is my neighbor.
Thanks everyone for your advice! And here comes the last straw: last night I caught him lying as well! The trip we were all supposed to take together was in Venice (our “soap opera” is based in Italy), and he said that the surprise-present-event from taht girl was in another town (not Venice). But last night someone tagged him in a photo on Facebook, and he was in Venice with a different group than ours, on what seemed to be another organized trip. So, he DID go to Venice, but with other people, and didn’t even have the balls to tell us. Liar!!!! This is not only an insult to me, but it’s an insult to our entire group of friends! 🙁
Your neighbour!!!! OMG, that must be really difficult, because you can’t say “I’m selling the house and moving out”! 🙁 I’m still thinking about my “healthy distance” issue. First, I have to think about my own inner peace, but, at the same time, I wouldn’t like to give him the satisfaction that he really broke my heart this time. BTW, I like your nickname…and the message behind it! We can all do better than someone who only loves us part-time! 😉
Sorry Sandra
Your post hit a nerve as I spent hours stalking my ex on facebook (hangs head). So while I sounded annoyed at you, I was more annoyed with myself.
As for next week, wear something nice – flattering but not too sexy. Channel your inner Greta Garbo/Rhett Butler. You don’t give a damn. Speak to him as little as possible, if you can get away with it, say nothing to him. Afterwards, everyone may want to go to the pub. You, however “have other plans”. Waft away mysteriously. Those other plans may be going home to cry into cushions but he doesn’t know that. But if you do have better stuff to do, by all means do that!
Don’t be surprised if this piques his interest. But don’t be disappointed if it doesn’t. It’s not about him, you just want to maintain your dignity and get through a tricky meeting. If he comes after you again, just tell him you’re no longer interested.
He’s a flip-flapping waste of space. As I said, he’s free to do what he wants. But don’t let him do it on your time!
Good luck for Wednesday. Try not to stress about it – he really does only have as much power over you as you give him.
Sandra
He can do what he likes. If all my friends were up in my business like this, I’d bugger off to Venice too. He’s not obliged to tell you all what he’s doing.
You’re not in a relationship with him. Stop stalking him on facebook and expecting him to behave like your boyfriend. You’ve got better things to do.
Grace, why do I feel attacked by your comment? This is not about us “being in his business”, because we’re not, or me expecting him to act like my boyfriend. It’s about following or not following a previously made arrangement. It wasn’t even an issue of him and I doing something together just the 2 of us. It was an issue of being honest with some FRIENDS (beyond my ex-relationship with him), especially given the fact that he was one of the people who initiated the trip and suggested the date. It’s about honesty and respect as general notions. Please, stop defending him!
This is one of those situations that I’m going to straight off nip in the bud as on one side we have a question of interpretation (Sandra) and on the other side, there is a question of tone (Grace) and starting up an argument in the comments aside from being uncomfortable for everyone else, is something more reserved for a forum…which this is not.
Sandra, I think in the context of your other comments, it would, if you didn’t read just the one comment seem like you were somewhat in his business. Your comment, while you do say it’s an insult to your group of friends, let’s be real, your comments are about the personal indignation that you feel. That said, Grace…tone. You by and large write some excellent comments but sometimes, like in this instance, they’re difficult to gauge. I know you mean well, but be careful.
Sandra, hard as it may be to hear, being surprised that someone who is dishonest and disrespectful is being…dishonest and disrespectful is to still have expectations of that person. Truth be told, he would have been mad to go on the trip with you guys because you were there and as you’re still making contact with him and somewhat still hurt by him evidently, you can be damn sure he didn’t have the brass balls to be honest. I would almost feel sorry for him spending an entire trip shitting his pants that he may bump into you guys but I’m laughing at what a dipstick he is for taking the chance with such a *dumb* lie that he was bound to get caught out on. From your side, I appreciate your annoyance (who wouldn’t be, but it’s none of your business because you’re not friends – you’re someone that still wants him even though you know you shouldn’t. If anyone should be annoyed, it’s your mutual friends, but I suspect that they’re not because they likely recognise how damn uncomfortable it would have been. And let me stress – I’m not defending him.
Thanks, Natalie! I appreciate your objective view, and I also laughed at your scenario of him being stressed out. In the end, we didn’t go anymore, because there were very few of us remaining, and we did something else on Saturday. And about you saying that “we are not friends”, I was talking about that to my mum the other day. It’s true: we’ve NEVER been true friends. We got together very soon after we first met, then we broke up, and then we’ve just been…exes who still flirted with each other. I still had strong feelings for him, although I was strong enough not to give in. No “friend zone” behaviour between him and I. Now, I don’t speak to him anymore (time for “no contact”), but I’m terrified at the simple thought of our organization meeting on Wednesday. If I don’t see him, I’m fine, but at the same time I don’t want him to realize how hurt I really am… :-/ Once again, Natalie, thanks for your opinions and your way of expressing them! You can’t imagine how good I started to feel in these days by reading your articles! 😉
Don’t worry, Grace! 🙂 I thought that there was something more behind your message, maybe a memory of past problems you had… But yeah, I could do as you suggest: I’ve done it before, last autumn, and I will do it again. And your reference to Rhett Butler made me laugh, because the first time that we broke up I put as a status “Frankly, my dear, I don’t give a damn!”, and he was soooo upset, that he blocked the comments from me on FB. :-O But speaking of stalking, I guess it happens to many people, because we’re all human. I know he does it to me too… But in many cases (my case included), stalking can be … discreet. He NEVER knows I’m thinking about him or keeping an eye on him (although I’m sure it’s not good for my own peace of mind), and I always share my worries and sadness with other people. Never with him. I’m too proud! I’m trying not to stress too much now, and see if I get through this. 😉 Hugs. xx
NML, Kay, runnergirl, Natasha, Maya, Used, Movedup, TJ, Astelle, Magnolia, everyone who took the time to raise me up from my despair. Thank you so much. The support, encouragement and advice has brought me to tears. Happy tears. What a wonderful community this is of people trying and encouraging others to be the best that they can possibly be. I think the hardest thing I have ever had to try and do is look inward, understand myself, accept myself. I’ll be 35 in a month and since discovering BR six months ago I fee like I have spent the past 15 years in a impulse serving fog with no concept of why I do the things I do or have the feelings I have. When I read Natalie’s posts and everyones insightful comments, the thing that impresses me the most if how brave and open everyone is to expressing their vulnerability and sharing the things that have brought us the most shame, to try and become the best person they can be. There is no EUM/AC who is even a fraction of the person each of you is and I feel nothing but pity for them. Thanks again.
I hope this is at least somehow on-topic, and I’m not sure whether this has been discussed before. I’m often surprised about how many EUM/AC I have probably met during my life have actually been in therapy. I’m currently trying to get over such a guy. What do therapists tell them? Are they telling them the truth about themselves? Or are they rather helping them to play their games even better by giving them reasons to feel like “victims”? Are those guys (or similar minded women) manipulating the therapists too?
The point is that I’ve never been to therapy, although I’m probably the perfect candidate for that, with a mother who (as I now believe) has full-blown NPD, 10 years of severe bullying at school, a lot of troubled short-term relationships in the past…and generally constantly feeling there is something wrong with me. But how can I trust a therapist who maybe (even if involuntarily) supports narcissists/EUM/AC? Maybe this is just an excuse because I don’t really want to work on my problems. I’m not sure.
Sorry for bad English, I’m not a native speaker, but I’m happy that I have discovered this great blog! I wish there was something similar in my native language, would make commenting a little less awkward…
elly
one of my exes was in therapy like forever. i’ve no idea what they talked about but he didn’t change. famously woody allen has had years of therapy, during which time he ran off with his adopted daughter.
so, while therapy can be very helpful, it can’t perform miracles.
i’ve had several sessions of therapy over 20 years. the final one hit home only because I was older and ready for it. and i could no longer deny the trainwreck of my relationships.
don’t imagine that just because he is in therapy it’s going to magically make him a better person. and even if it does, it may not include you. for all you know, his therapist could be helping him to end his hopeless liaisons.
your english is fine by the way.
elly
sorry, i went off on a tangent and didn’t answer your question – therapy can be very useful if you have sufficient self-awareness and are willing to at least entertain someone else’s views. sadly, many EUMs and most ACs don’t have that ability so their therapists are probably … quite frustrated.
i think you would benefit though. you do need to find someone you can work with and most will give you a free session to decide if it’s worth pursuing with them.
Grace: Thank you! I think it all boils down to trust issues. It’s hard to trust anyone if even one’s (natural) trust as a kid in her mother turned out to be misplaced. Therapists are humans, too, and I’m afraid this profession itself attracts quite a few narcissists. Free test sessions might indeed help, or seeking recommendations from friends.
Regarding this guy (let’s call him M.), I have no hopes that any therapist could change him. My whole story with him consists of six weeks of something like dating (he probably wouldn’t call it even that). I met him through friends. L., a mutual acquaintance of ours, urged M. and me to go out together, telling me that his friend had been depressed and had to “socialize more”. Same is the case with me, because I’m a foreigner in this country and a little bit isolated. Therefore I agreed.
M. started to charm me, asking me out many times, always paying the bills. We started to hang out together a lot. He seemed to have a little bit of trouble getting his life together, but so nice (good actor, I guess). He proudly introduced me to some of his pals. He didn’t try to have sex or anything like that, but reassured me how much he needed me, how I helped him to get out of his depressed state (the good old “armchair therapist” story, I know, I know). He also mentioned his “very controlling” mother whom he frequently sees.
At the same time, he tried to convince me to become his part-time roommate. I was looking for a room to stay in his town for a few days a week anyway. Unfortunately, my friends and I talked about this (we often do it) while I first met him. I’m usually more cautious about mentioning this to strangers.
I finally gave in (the room is far from perfect, but the rent is far lower than what I was prepared to pay elsewhere), but – luckily – negotiated a testing phase of a month. Right after I moved in (on the same day, to be precise), he revealed to me that during all those weeks, he had tried to win his ex-girlfriend back (whom he hadn’t seen for years), even (in vain) trying to avert her wedding to someone else. He also told me that he had checked on the same ex-girlfriend earlier when another woman proposed to him (!). I thought “major red flag”. Poor woman (the one who proposed to him).
A few days later, he went on a date with another woman he had apparently met a few days before (so much for being depressed and not socializing), asking me to join and hinting me that his best friend N. (who was also joining them) was interested in me. I got angry and refused to go.
I had already noticed N.s interest in me, but gotten slightly annoyed, believing that N. was interfering with M. I’m now convinced that M. had already told N. he wasn’t interested in me himself, all the while continuing to charm me. He probably also went on other dates or at least tried to get some. I confronted M. about having been a little bit dishonest with me (by never mentioning any of his romantic interests to me, even if we seemed to talk a lot about other personal things). He assured me that he wasn’t an asshole (yeah, right). He didn’t say anything like “Oh, did I hurt you? I’m so sorry. I had no idea”. Of course, he was concerned only about his own image.
I don’t cry after him as a possible romantic partner (after all, he isn’t the person he pretended to be). It hurts anyway, because I trusted him too much.
All this sounds a little like college kids, I guess. Only I’m in my thirties, and those guys are in their forties.
I’m currently trying to sit this month in M.s apartment out (after all, I paid for it), talking to him only when absolutely necessary. Luckily, he is away this week.
Why don’t you just get up and go?
I wouldn’t live in the same home as someone who did the old “Bait and Switch” on me! He USED you. Get out!
Used: Luckily, this isn’t my home, but only kind of a secondary residence, because I need to be in this town ocassionally (I wish I could move to this city permanently, but for certain reasons, I can’t). The problem is that I already gave him my rent for this month.If I walked away right now, he would win once more.
However, whenever I leave this place, I try to take most of my belongings with me and never leave anything at least remotely valuable here. This way, I hope I would be able to bail out quickly whenever he decides to treat me even worse than he did already.
I still hope that his urge to look like a “nice guy” to everyone around him keeps him from treating me badly even as a roommate. I’m somehow used to this weird feeling of having to stay with somebody I don’t trust at all anymore, constantly hedging myself. I had similiar feelings whenever I visited my parents, until I finally cut off all contact a few years ago.
However, I stay alert.
Finally, this experience (even if it’s not entirely my first one like this) seems to shed new light on my lifelong “trust issues”. I used to think my inability to trust anyone was my biggest problem in life. My abusive parents reinforced this belief whenever I tried to curl up into a weeping ball and not let anyone get close to me (especially not them). Later on, guys whom I didn’t want to sleep with made me believe the same. Repeatedly, I agreed upon having sex with them although I hated it, believing I had to “actively fight my issues”.
In fact, this was probably just my gut instinct, my urge for self-preservation. It’s damn hard to trust your own instinct if it constantly tells you that your own mother is a bad person.
Truth told, quite a few people are bad. Especially as a victim of severe emotional abuse by a parent, one tends to attract more of the same kind. I think this started long ago with all my school bullies. Quite a few of my former romantic partners probably fall into the same category.
EllyB,
Can I just say I am concerned for you to continue to stay at this guy’s place, even part-time. After reading your comments about past emotional abuse, it sounds like you might be used to much worse, so you may believe you can handle his level of abuse.
Believe me, I understand the whole “not wanting him to win” thing, but what are you losing in the process? No matter how guarded we believe we are, if we knowingly let others take advantage of us, it will continue to erode our mental well-being.
Look at it this way, either way he gets to keep the rent money, whether you stay or leave early. So why not leave early to avoid letting him take something of far more value to you, like your self-respect?
EllyB, it is telling that you regard this dipstick’s antics as “a little bit dishonest”. He’s actually been very dishonest and for your sake both with regards to him and any future people you get involved with, do not minimise and play down lies and deception. This man is slick and what he exemplifies is something that mystifies me:
If a woman was introduced to a man as being depressed, messed up, or anything negative, he’d back away. Yet often, men can say they’re depressed, fucked up, psychopaths or whatever and they get women.
If you can manage to stay there for the month, then OK do it, but if this is emotionally stressful and it’s costing you emotionally, suck up the cost and get out. Swallow your pride about the money and tell him to take a run and jump.
Used, ICanDoBetter: Thank you for your support! I probably needed that, you really made me think.
NML: Yeah, it’s sick. The only explanation I can come up with for myself (which might be true for others too) is that I always believe that I’m so messed up that no normal guy would ever put up with me. Therefore, I keep thinking that if I’m willing to take a toll (for example, by choosing someone who is messed up himself), I could “get away” with my own faults.
As a kid, I got bullied (among other reasons) for always being the class winner and for being extremely well-behaved. To my mother, however, I was always the worst crap in the world, a big disappointment, full of shit and bad intentions, and an incredible nuisance to her (who claimed to be God’s best friend herself). That made me think: If I try that hard and I’m never good enough anyway, I certainly can’t ask much from life and from anyone else, right?
This isn’t limited to relationships. In almost every field, I try to gain “safety” by asking for less and giving/sacrificing more than others.
Why so many of us women seem to act the same way is an interesting question.
Used, ICanDoBetter, Natalie: Your advice really hit home. Thank you very much for that! I packed my stuff and left the place last night. Even if he isn’t supposed to return before the weekend, staying at his appartment started to feel worse and worse. Plus, I was somewhat scared that he might return earlier than announced.
ICanDoBetter: Self-Respect is much more valuable than money. You are so right about this, but I never thought of it that way before.
You are hands down the smartest dating expert this world full of assclowns has ever known. That book of yours needs to hit stands NOW.
Why aren’t you on Oprah? Your speak the truth, and believe me, your time has come.
Folks? Another bulls-eye from this lady. Read this blog daily. I do.
Free Love Techniques.
These are tried and tested by moi and because I love to share what makes me happy to make others happy then I am compelled to share, as you are all so worthy…..NOT FOR ASSCLOWNS.
This is for you.
Piece of paper (suggest getting an I LOVE MYSELF Journal).
1.) SHADDOW DANCING
Draw a line down the middle so you have 2 collumns.
Put people i admire on left – People i don’t admire on right.
List 3 qualities you like – 3 qualities you dont like about them.
about them.
Look at the list on the left all of those qualities are what you love about you as you can not see something in others which is not in you, keep that light your holding and turn to the right side.
I call this “Shaddow Dancing”
Those qualities you listed that you don’t like about the others are the aspects of yourself that you don’t like, Its how your shaddow self shows up.
ooohh.
Now that you accept that with the light you hold within you what happens to a shaddow when you put light on it?
Appreciate how devine you are by having a dance for it is so easy to not face your shaddow, yet there is never any darkness when your light is present!
Go out and radiate that light to the world and then everyone will see how wonderful you are and when others throw their shaddow on you …… DANCE, Laugh and say “hmm, thats an interesting perspective you have, I wonder how that sits with you?” & Smile, for you are no longer afraid of the dark!
BE AUTHENTIC, BE TRUE, BE YOU.
XXX CRYSTAL XXX Enjoy.