I hear from so many people who feel very put upon by one or a group of people. It’s feeling as if something won’t be done if they don’t do it or that it won’t be done correctly, or feeling that the expectation is that they ‘should’ do it hence they feel obliged to even though it’s not their ‘job’ and it’s really annoying them.
As I scanned my emails the other day, it struck me like a puck in the head:
What differentiates relationships that prosper and those that flounder, is that people who have relatively harmonious relationships, know their ‘job’.
Now, what I mean by this is, is that they know that their job is to be who they are and to show up in an equal fashion for a 100:100 relationship.
No one is superior or inferior and there isn’t one person underfunctioning and the other overfunctioning; they’re both able to be and take care of their respective selves and to be in a relationship from a place of love, care, trust and respect to contribute to the integrity, health and prosperity of the relationship.
It’s not about who is ‘the man’ and who is ‘the woman’, because aside from the fact that relationships are not purely between men and women, each time we define our expectations of a person based on what we define them as in relation to us, we not only make presumptions about what we and they are ‘supposed’ to do but we are not grounded enough to recognise our own and their humanness and to work with it to forge a relationship that respects who each party actually is.
A prime example of this is family tensions. Instead of seeing family members as humans first and foremost, it’s instead about, “You are this and I am that so we ‘should’ have a relationship like this and you must do that and I must do this”. Cue obligation and resentment.
When we are over or underfunctioning, our presumptions about the other party’s role stem from how we want to stay in our comfort zone, which could be performing seal pleaser or living in a level of chaos.
Overfunctioning results in us doing our ‘job’ plus someone else’s, or doing both ‘jobs’ half-assedly but feeling no doubt exhausted.
We’re training people into the perception that a job that’s not our job is our job or, we’re training them to believe that we are OK with doing something when we’re not.
Now, it’s annoying enough being the one who always cleans out the microwave or fridge at work, or who everyone assumes will volunteer or buy the gift or host or whatever it is, but when what someone thinks is our ‘job’ is to basically let them off the hook from having to lift a feckin finger in the relationship while we break our back, it’s soul destroying, even more so when we collude with them by obliging us to fulfil that role.
I hear from so many men and women who do stuff by default that becomes a rod for their own backs, or who out of fear that if they don’t cover the other person’s ‘share’, that they won’t step up, they decide to do ‘everything’ and to let stuff slide so that they can feel in [pseudo] control. They invariably languish in unavailable relationships. None of these people know their job or if they do, they’ve gotten sidetracked or clean forgotten it.
Their job is to be their grown-up selves and show up to do their part in co-creating a relationship. In order to do this, they must have a reasonable grasp on who they are, what they need and want–so a combo of values and boundaries.
Overfunctioners take on too much responsibility and underfunctioners, whether they admit it or not, put their responsibilities on others and typically gets away with that in their pattern until they meet someone who will not play ball.
Not knowing our ‘job’ guarantees pain and keeps us out of a loving relationship or sabotaging our happiness within one. Each party loses respect—self-respect as well as the respect of the other party.
Imagine a Mr/Miss Unavailable with a track record of ‘Fallbacks’ who all allow him/her to underfunction. Sure, we might feel special in our efforts to accommodate but look at the bigger picture:
We are one in a long line of partners who have to greater or lesser degrees, allowed this person to coast.
Once they realise it’s same ole same ole, even if it’s with us the newbie, their underlying inner frustrations, resentments, anxieties etc kick in and their existing pattern is validated.
Even the biggest bullshitters in the world know on some level that they’re not doing good by someone and after a while, us overfunctioning, while it coddles and protects them, it also reflects something about them.
One day, they might meet someone who does not respond in the same way as all the other men and women. They might test the waters to see if this person is serious and when this person effectively turns around and says, “Listen, I like you and everything but I’m not your mother/father/slave/groupie/fluffer/ or like all the other men/women who have let you get away with [whatever their shenanigans are]. Of course I’ll take care of you and I can take care of myself but you also need to do the same. If you want to be in a relationship with me, I will ask questions, I’ll expect you to be a person of your word, and I won’t be putting up with this whole airy fairy ambiguous crap or being censored about what I can talk about. Of course I’d be disappointed if you didn’t want to continue on that basis but at the same time, it would be wrong for us to continue if you want something different. There are plenty of men/women out there who can give you a no strings relationship or one that just bumbles along but that ain’t me”, it’s a jolt from their pattern. They might run for the hills or they might try to stretch themselves, not for him/her but for themselves in the realisation that they don’t want to be sheltered from their part in a relationship.
Equally, overfunctioners often meet people who do not want to be coddled and treated like the centre of the universe and their ‘parent(s)’, who effectively say, “Why are you doing that? I don’t need you to do that. Relax and be yourself. I love you as you are. I don’t know what went on in your last relationship but I’m not that guy/woman. What do you mean we can’t have a discussion because you’re afraid of criticism? What do you mean you didn’t want to say anything in case I ran off? Whadaya take me for?”
If a relationship is not mutual, halt.
A relationship must make you more of who you are, not less of it, and it needs to raise you higher, not flatten you into a doormat.
When you’re in a relationship where you ‘stay in your own lane’ (good boundaries instead of losing you), you trust you to be you and you trust the other party to do their part even if they’re going to do it in ‘their way’. They might have some figuring out to do, their might be discussions and even clashes as you figure out how to coexist harmoniously but what you’re never doing, is effectively going, “Oh, so you find being a partner too hard? Right so-how about I take love, care, trust and respect off your hands and never raise any issues with you again?” Because you know what?
People don’t know what their part or responsibilities are, if we’re doing it. They won’t know whether they can or whether they want to do it until there’s tumbleweeds where we (or others) used to be plugging the gaps.
You will never have to feel as if you sold you down the river if you let people do or not do their part.
If someone doesn’t want to be a partner in a mutual relationship but you do, you’re not a match. When you acknowledge this, you can let things go so that you can be open to someone who does, but you will not be able to do that, as long as you keep trying to make a relationship on your own.
Your thoughts?
Don’t forget that I’m in San Francisco and Los Angeles this weekend and New York next month for The Breakthrough workshops, plus… The Breakthrough online course starts on May 4th
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Welcome back!
There’s also the thing that we do not communicate “jobs” the same way. To one group of women, doing chores is a social event, a joy if everyone takes part, to others, chores are just the stuff that need to be done so that everyone isn’t covered in rubbish in a matter of a week. So. When a Joy-Chorer suggests that “let’s do the dishes” the people to whom chores are just chores will easily reply “not now” or “not yet” or “I’m busy” and the joy-chorer simply feels rejected, because to them, the chore was a social thing, so to say no to it, to them, means: “I don’t want to hang out with you. I am mad at you.”
Then, let’s reverse. When the joy-chorer asks a must-chorer to do something “for them”, the must-chorer agrees if they feel they are the best man for the job or it’s simply their turn. Now the joy-chorer gets excited, there’s something social on the menu, so she (usually) starts chit chatting away about the chore, driving the must-chorer CRAZY. “Why can’t you just let me do this?! If you ask me do something, just let me do it and stop bugging me!”
And a ton of other variations, right? 😀
Natalie,
I like your label of being “overfunctioning” and “underfunctioning.” I think I have been trying to control by picking UM’s and then getting to be so above-it-all when yet another one lets me down. When I read your book I began to realize that I am emotionally unavailable, too, that a 100/100 relationship scares the hell out of me. It has been 2 1/2 years since my last live-in lover and I have really gone back to the drawing board on how I do ALL relationships. You are helping me so much. Right now I am learning how to have good boundaries and how not to overdraw them after a lifetime of underdrawing them. One thing you said really hit home: how can the other person know what their job is unless I step back and and don’t take that job on? I am far out of my comfort zone and very happy that I am.
Really really great article thank you. I am currently going through some huge personal transformations in my relationship style and functioning and this is just what i needed to remind myself not to slip into old habits with someone new. Some of that is down to articles I have read here in fact so thank you for your insight… it has helped me no end in rediscovering who i am and what I want from life.
After 2 consecutive relationships with verbally and emotionally abusive men and a history of unavailable partners and bad decisions I started the whole its actually me that has to work to change this, no one else can do it and Im not going to be saved by a relationship. I need to save myself and become the person I know I can be and want to be first before even contemplating being with someone else. After a year of slowly building myself back again I have started dating. Its a very new experience as I have not really ever dated someone for a realistic period before rushing headlong into a relationship and never done the discovery thing. Its actually made me realise my own failings a little as it feels a bit uncomfortable sometimes due to it highlighting residual insecurity that I still have from the past and my need for instant gratification and stimulus as well. But thats actually brilliant because of the space in between and the no rushing and the fact that this guy is actually a decent person with a life who doesn’t feel the need to rush into anything as he too is checking out if I am actually a suitable match its been eye opening and really great for me (hard can also be great). The one thing I have really noticed is that i try to preempt negative reactions from him by over explaining what i meant or trying to explain jokes in case i offend him. Its actually unfair to him as i am judging him on the actions of people from my past … somewhere deep down I am still afraid of being just who i am and that he will hurt me or leave me if i reveal myself. But as I said its fantastic to be able to have the time to see all this and take the time to work on those last few hidden shadow projections rather then be overwhelmed by it all in a serious relationship before i know exactly how i feel, what i want and if this is the right person to build something real with.
Thanks Natalie, you have helped me once again 🙂
Hey Celina,
I find myself in a very similar place as you at the moment, and it’s been very hard for me to accept that at the age of 32 I’ve been making some poor decisions and selling myself short by entertaining some of the arseholes that I have over the years.
I’m also seeing someone very new at the moment (a month in), and if I’m truthful, the whole thing is absolutely terrifying! He’s sweet, kind, smart, affectionate and not at all the kind of man I would’ve given the time of day in the past – being that he’s much shorter than me.
When we’re together or on the phone, it’s so easy and carefree, however, during the week when we’re busy working I don’t hear from him that much (the odd text here or phone call there). He’s been away on two overseas trips since we started dating and he’s called me regularly from each destination – so I figure he must be keen, right? I’m still struggling to figure out if it’s because he’s not that into me, or because he’s genuinely busy with day-to-day life and I’m being demanding/needy?
I’m used to guys who phone and text a lot in the beginning – then it trails off or they ghost me. However, this guy has been pretty consistent in staying in touch, but I feel like because I’m not being bombarded with messages throughout the day, that maybe he’s not that interested? Consequently, I find myself keeping my texting to a minimum because I don’t want to overwhelm him or come on too strong. Am I reading too much into things? Do I need to kick back and go with the flow?
Hi Rachel
Yea its tougher than I thought dating a decent guy! I’ve realised i subconsciously dated down before if that makes sense so i didn’t have to deal with my stuff and face my fears of being rejected and abandoned while activley reliving them over and over again. Abuse was safer to me then putting myself first and standing up for me. Looking back it is so silly that I ever thought that was going to work haha. What i am realising is that I have to look at the person based on their behaviour and their merits only and not judge them based on what someone else has done to me in the past. Also Im trying really hard to remind myself and believe in my worth even when i dont get an immediate response or as much affection as i thought i might. Im starting to be able to understand that sometimes ppl are busy or preoccupied or have other things going on and it is not a reflection of my worth or how much i mean to them. The fact he has called you from abroad and stays in touch regularly is definitely a positive sign. Also you say he is consistent – this for me is something i look for now in someone else and is one of my core values. I need someone to be consistently them and do what they say they will. And I do that too. I stick to my word and am who i say i am.
Be yourself and dont hold back too much as he needs to fall for you and not a construct that you think he wants but also I would say it is good not to message all the time as you should be doing other things too that you love so much that you forget all about everything else.
I now have a little rule I have made myself. For every text I send to this guy I also reach out to a friend or family member to remember some perspective and not put all my eggs into that one basket. I now water all my friendships and make sure I am not over prioritising one aspect of my life above all else. That has really helped me out.
Celina – thanks you! You’re so right! It’s tough dating a good guy, and I find myself constantly having to reason with myself when I feel that I’m not getting the attention I deserve (I know, I sound like such a spoilt brat!). I don’t know where I got this notion from that in order for a man to want you, he should want to be around you or in contact with you 24/7!!! Maybe because most of the guys I’ve dated treated me like an option, or would often squeeze me into their busy schedules – feeding me scraps of time. So now, I’m here like, if a guy REALLY likes me he’ll pursue me and be the opposite of my exes. I hope that makes sense?
I’m definitely making more effort to “water” my friendships – especially now everyone is getting married, having kids and I don’t get to see or speak to them as much as I used to.
I will persevere with this discovery phase with my good guy, and fingers crossed my anxiety levels will diminish over time – haha.
Good luck with it rachel i hope it goes well for you.
Ive definitely realised that its not natural for someone to go into full blown relationship mode and message all the time and talk about love right away. That now scares me as its a sure sign of a controlling maniac!
Better to start small and grow into that later down the line if they are the right person. I used to fall in love very easily or thought i did but it was me trying to control the situation and playing out my abandonment story over and over. Now i just remind myself that i love me first 😉 it’s hard changing patterns but worth it. Glad your on this journey too. Nice to share thank you xx
I think it’s hard as women, especially when there are so many books etc about ‘What Men Want’ etc and how to behave in dating when really everyone is different, men, women, people. I think relationships should be taught at school – red flags to be aware of, empathising with others but never trying to solve or take on their problems and how to communicate boundaries clearly. Unfortunately I read a rather damaging book ‘Get the Guy’ which while it talks about having standards and valuing yourself, it tells you how to hone your personality and communicate to be more attractive to men and subtly lures you in via email to buying ‘secrets’ to the male mind to get ‘any’ man to fall for you. This stuff is so dangerous and I am so sad I fell for it as it ruined my relationship. The thing is that when faced with a woman who won’t take their crap these men often get their act together.
I think it’s hard as women, especially when there are so many books etc about ‘What Men Want’ etc and how to behave in dating when really everyone is different, men, women, people. I think relationships should be taught at school – red flags to be aware of, empathising with others but never trying to solve or take on their problems and how to communicate boundaries clearly. Unfortunately I read a rather damaging book ‘Get the Guy’ which while it talks about having standards and valuing yourself, it tells you how to hone your personality and communicate to be more attractive to men and subtly lures you in via email to buying ‘secrets’ to the male mind to get ‘any’ man to fall for you. This stuff is so dangerous and I am so sad I fell for it as it ruined my relationship. The thing is that when faced with a woman who won’t take their crap these men often get their act together. Also all these Get Your Ex Back programmes, this is all where the Internet has us in thrall; people never seemed to hade such problems with relationships in the past or need any guidance and it really shouldn’t be so hard!
Hi, Rachel,
This is just a thought, but “quick involvement” is one of the symptoms of a controlling personality, or a potentially abusive relationship. Being “swept off your feet” in love isn’t always a good thing. I know different people have different preferences for the amount of contact that they want in the beginning stages of a relationship, but someone messaging you 50 times a day, or wanting to run off and get married, or move in together, within the first two months (basically any time when it should still be the discovery phase) is a red flag. Or, at least, it can be. I would say that as long as he’s consistently making the effort to stay in touch, that’s a good thing and it’s probably what you should be focusing on at this point. I hope this helps.
~ Freedom
Hey Freedom,
Thanks for the insight, it’s taken me some years to realise that the ones who are usually in hot pursuit of me from the start, tend to be the ones who lose their motivation the quickest. As quickly as they appear, they depart just as fast!
I’m also starting to realise that the number of messages/calls I receive doesn’t always equate to having a healthy relationship. I have been with guys in the past who would constantly need to know where I was and who I was with (sadly I used to think this behaviour was cute), which as you rightfully point out, is a sign of a potentially abusive situation. On the flip side, I’ve also dealt with guys who thought it was OK to ignore me or not call for days on end.
I guess I’m struggling to decipher what is a healthy amount of attention / communication when you’re at that initial dating phase? All of my past relationships have gone from 0-to-100 in 5 seconds flat, so I’ve never had to do the whole discovery phase before, and it’s scary.
If you figure it out, let me know. I was dating a nice guy for a couple of months, I felt the amount of attention we paid each other was equal and never did I become angsty about it. In fact, neither one of us likes to text, so we kept that to a minimum. Emails were consistent, but not a lot of them. I have other things to do than text/email someone all day. However, I then went away on a 3 week vacation that had been planned for months, before I met him. When I got back, we emailed but he didn’t ask to see me until a few days later. So I suggested the weekend. He then told me he would have to check his schedule, and he may have to go to his hometown for the weekend. I could not pin down what he might have to do there, it was all very vague. My first thoughts were that a man who is supposedly into me and hasn’t seen me for three weeks and doesn’t want to come see me and comes up with some excuse about having to go home for the weekend, it just didn’t feel right to me. So I told him I didn’t feel we were on the same page and let it go. I was probably too hasty, but I do think he must have met someone during my time away – I really can’t think of a man who wouldn’t be itching to come see me after 3 weeks gone. (Nor was this the first time we’d had this discussion – before I left he wasn’t sure he could see me because, once again, he had to go to his hometown. When I got a little upset, he did come see me, but eeked it in under the wire.) I ran the scenario by a bunch of men and each one confirmed this didn’t sound right. So… bye. But sometimes I do wonder if I was just being ‘spoiled’ and demanding. I don’t think so, but… oh well.
No, it sounds weird and I agree with your instincts here – it sounds like this connection was a higher priority for you than for him and he wasn’t treating this with the importance that felt right to you. I’ve been in a similar situation and I was puzzled why this guy wasn’t as excited to see me as I was to see him… and although it may have felt premature to move on, I would venture a guess that you saved yourself a lot of pain. Good job listening to your gut and recognizing a red flag when you saw it.
I agree. I think mainly of women, we tend to down play our instincts…we’d certainly not want to treat someone “unfairly”. I think if we collectively treat ourselves more respectfully by really paying close attention to our instincts, perhaps men (or others) will give us more credit.
Diane,
I am so proud of you!! It is not easy to walk away, but you did what many of us woman fail to do is take your emotions out of the situation and use your logic and instincts. If you felt something wasn’t right, more than likely you were right.
Yeah, thanks, ladies. To be honest, I never felt it was a soul connection or anything – he was just a nice, simple guy who was consistent about asking me out and keeping in touch. Even that low bar is extremely difficult to find in this city. So it wasn’t that hard to drop it when I felt that first red flag pop up. I hope I can do the same if I ever do meet a guy with much more of a connection.
There are some who say the masculine/feminine dynamic should be the woman never initiating texting/planning, I guess this would protect you from over investment.
Hi Rachel,
I don’t know if you’re still reading this thread, but I had the opportunity to take my own advice recently. A well-intentioned friend of mine (who knew that I’d been single for awhile) tried to set me up with a guy last week. It immediately became a situation of him blowing up my phone every five minutes within the first day or so. Constant texting like that is actually a huge turn-off for me. I work and enjoy longer attention span type activities (such as reading and writing) so it really doesn’t work for me have to be reading on my phone constantly. I don’t object to texting as a method of communication in and off itself. It can be useful and handy, especially for purely practical questions that don’t really merit a phone call, but I dislike the implication that I’m supposed to be constantly available. There were some other read flags as well, so I opted out pretty quickly and I’m very glad I did.
~ Freedom
It’s taken me four years to see how much I trapped myself into unavailable relationships by applying good and well meaning advice but in my crappy, hardly there relationships. This advice is meant for mutual relationships where everyone is coming in at least 100% engaged in doing the work even if they aren’t there yet. A lot of the advice I read focused on minimizing ego to increase vulnerability which is great advice in the context of an actually mutual relationship, where you’re a little scared about being vulnerable. But in applying it to unavailable shit-uations with EUMs , I was was designing and implementing my own torture . Instead of minimizing ego I minimized my self-esteem and boundaries and I didn’t understand ( maybe still don’t quite fully understand the difference) and instead of it resulting in increased vulnerablity , I just became more wide open to lowering my standards and being abused and I could not understand why my genuine and conscious efforts at purposely trying to change and openmyself up and minimizing ego to give room for love was not giving me a relationship that felt good.It was because I was in the relationship all by myself and he was just reaping the benefits of zero boundaries.
If I had applied those same principles in a relationship with someone who 1) actually cared about me and shared my values of learning how to be vulnerable and had a bare minimum level of self awareness and availability, then maybe i would have experienced the result of the suggestions.
Lesson learned : you cannot internalize the lessons from your relationship-skills “lessons” if you choose poor partners to practice on in real life . If you don’t correct and first pass your basic “how to understand why you pick unavailable people, how to be available yourself and how to pick an available partner instead courses” , trying to flex more advanced skills from the “conducting a healthy relationship course ” will be in vain and you will be doing all the work by yourself. For examples doing yoga is great and healthy but if you try and do advanced yoga poses before you even master the basics you’re gonna injure yourself!
Thank you.I did the same thing, you have put it into words so well, for me.At this stage I’m not sure I want to try it out with a mutually respectful relationship as I still don’t know if I would recognise one.Thanks again
So glad you’re back!!
My rule of thumb is if the emotional workload is harder, if I am constantly worried about being rejected in the relationship, if I no longer feel I can speak freely, tis time to bail.
Miss Nat,
Welcome back, love. Hopefully you got some good, hearty rest and are feeling rejuvenated.
It’s so funny, though I should be used to it by now: I kid you not, I Googled “underfunctioners and overfunctioners” and lo and behold! Who popped up but, why, Miss Natalie Lue! Lol! Though I’m not surprised at all.
Anyway, I’ve been dealing with being an overfunctioner in a friendship with an underfunctioner and it’s definitely exhausting, and I’m seeing some major blowback and resentment as I retreat from my role. Still, it’s better for the both of us. And not to worry, I see my role in the dysfunction as well, so I’m not pointing fingers here. I’m working on it.
Great article, my dear. Keep ’em coming, as I know you will.
Revs
Hey Nat, you’re in L.A. this weekend? Any meetups?
“…like a puck in the head…” — LOVE that!! Yes, it took an absurd amount of time for me to realise that I had been conned into believing that *I* had to do absolutely EVERYTHING (cue the ex’s auto-reply: “Me poor helpless special-needs child…no can do nothing!”), or “he would make my life even more miserable than it already is”, “we’ll end up bankrupt/homeless”, etc., etc., etc. — all these “dire” outcomes that for some mysterious reason never actually came to pass once I realized what was happening and started “just saying ‘No!’”.
“We’re training people into the perception that a job that’s not our job is our job or, we’re training them to believe that we are OK with doing something when we’re not. “
It took me even longer to figure that out and understand why he was flabbergasted to learn that I had been unhappy in the marriage (wasn’t it patently obvious to anyone with any functioning grey matter in their head at all?!) and was dead-serious about ending it! The happy ending is that I have continued “just saying ‘No!’” whenever he calls me up trying to weasel me into doing something for him “because he can’t do it, so I have to do it for him”; and observing him make faltering but steady progress at learning how to be an adult and take responsibility for his own life while I make my own faltering by steady progress through the discovery phase of a new relationship and explore a new way of being.
Spot on. Thanks again Natalie!
I am new here but i real most of the posts in the past 2 evenings.
How about a relationship had a 100:100 work in a disfunctional way ?
Well i know a couple. She used to be a friend of mine , but after listening to her , i gently distanced myself from her and her horrible stories.
A year into a relationship with a guy who is separated with kids. He adopted the kids then bailed on them , even though he says he sees them everyday.
In the beginning we all thought : oh well, marriages don’t always work but he is a good dad.
Furtherdown the line she tells us smiling, almost like a joke, that she just met at his house with his other gf of one year . Paralel relationships. He had spent holidays with that woman. My friend spent them with her family.
But oh they get along just fine .
The secret is they both have some kinks, she is a sexually sub of 28 years, he is a daddy Mr Grey of 50 y.o …so she feels completed in this relationship. In a special like bond. Is awesome and she goes with the flow.
But it was a joke to her to meet that other woman, and be arrogant towards her, throwing in his face that he said she is the special one and blah blah.
First group reaction : WTF?????
2 months later edit. Not only does the dude shags other women , but she is ok with it because he told her he doesn’t feel monogamous.
She’s even applauding the effects of his charms since she is some sort of an accomplice to this. She tells him what are the women online that she would like, and lets him pursue them with the charm of : i am separated and i am loking for the one
so he can have his fix and then maybe he can convince the victims to have a 3 way.
That was like a bomb dropping.
Now she texts me asking if i am ok , if something is happening to me that we don’t keep in touch that much .
I said to myself: for this girl karma is going to be a b**ch and she is my friend, maybe i’ll be there to support her .
But right now, i feel that, if i stick around, i am just watching a movie with 2 sociopaths at work.
And she was not like that before him.
She is aware that someday she might want kids and a family and still dreams she has time for that or that her “daddy” will let her get impregnated by another guy
WTF again??????
i honestly believe that as long as two people genuinely have the same values ( as in nobody is pretending to have values they don’t in order to get the other person) any kind of relationship can work. however, some people think that having alternative styles of relationships means to get to skimp on the basic foundations of love,care,trust, respect,commitment(which may not =monogamy for some ppl i guess) , balance etc but in these kind of relationships you actually need to have even firmer grasp of foundations of relationships 101. this kind of relationships is the sort of thing you should only attempt is 1) it really matches your true values ( not you trying to be cool or giving up on what you really want) and 2) you have really reached the advanced stages of foundations of self esteem and relationships. switching from usual relationship to these more alternative kind of relationships when you haven’t got your values and esteem and foundations right is going to result in even worse ingraining of pain and poor habits . those kind of set ups are not for me , monogamy is a core value for me, but if it is not and you find someone else who does not value it do not kid yourself that you don’t have to show up with the foundations of a relationship. NO relationship works without the foundations and if your friend hasn’t got hers sorted she will find out on her own soon enough.
I forgot to mention that if we all did the math, seeing his kids everyday, time when he cannot be bothered in the evening , he is actually seeing other women , so he uses his kids as excuses .
she ‘s the only one that doesn’t do that math
From my experience, a man that wants you knows his job. It is not your job guide him. That’s how you know if the relationship is evolving the way you want. When I met my husband, I didn’t have to tell him I wanted to spend time with him, he knew. I didn’t have to tell him to call me, he knew. It was easy! He didn’t have to worry about me because I did the same for him. It was consistency, good consistency! This is how I knew he was different than the other men because I didn’t have to work hard to get his attention, he gave it to me. And the rest is history!!
This is a great story, and to the point. You are 100% correct in your observations!
Hi. I have been following your blog for some time now. I stumbled upon it i cant remember how but im glad that i did. This article really hit home. Im definitely am definitely “overfuntioning” in my relationships but im now leatning to sit back and let other people do their jobs. This really helped me understand the overfuntioning and underfunctioning concepts better. Thank you so much!! Xo
Hey there, I wasn’t sure if this was a good place to request a topic, but on behalf of us Neuroatypical folks, I’ll give it a go.
I appear to be an MPDG. A Manic Pixie Dream Girl. I am ‘pretty’ and ‘odd’ or ‘quirky’. This would be fine if it just encouraged mutually casual relationships. Instead I get Future Faker after Future Faker. Of course, the minute they realize I am an actual real life girl with actual real life problems, instead of a magical sex fairy, they bail.
Re-bounders love me because I am so “different” from their exes. I just have a colourful wardrobe and a career in the arts, the former is awesome, the latter can suck. Oh, and I am neuroatypical, which can really suck. And no matter how often I BEG them to consider their words carefully, they fake, which really, really sucks.
I’ve been listless for a month over a guy who “meant it at the time”. (Not good when you are creatively self employed. Buh-bye savings!) Oh, and the always present in the battle against self esteem, the wall of creeps and losers who think I owe them sex because they’ve ‘given’ me a job or looked past my ‘freakishness’, presumably to notice i have boobs. Yay sexual harassment.
I’d love to date someone who wants to date ME, not a sexy projection of his needs and wants and complexes. I don’t think that makes me picky. As Diana Salvatore said: “I want you and not your help”. Except for you, Natalie, I want YOUR help. How can I stop finding myself with broken musicians who ‘take it back’, and start finding potential life partners?
I kept turning your mpdg comment in my head. You seem to also attract the male equivalent of that – other artistic men who it seems are not a good match. There are a lot of labels in your post – quirky, MPdg, odd, neuroatypical and I wonder if all this is getting in your way – you seem to both enjoy being quirky (which of us doesn’t) yet also not enjoy that men see you only as that. I think if you look back at the really problematic guys, there would have been warning signs which you didn’t act on — or maybe you did after all you aren’t with them anymore. Maybe everything you’re doing is fine. Just ditch some of the labels and enjoy yourself. Broaden your circle and be kinder to yourself. Take more power into your hands and ditch anyone that isn’t emotionally generous and stable.
You also say that you ‘beg’ people to watch their words – but assclowns and mpdb do not care and will not heed that. Tbh I don’t know what words you don’t want them to say – so it’s also possible that you’re asking too much – but if you have to beg people to not say certain things it means they are making you super anxious and are not good for you. It is okay if that happens – even people that look great on paper may not be good for you and no one is to blame for that. And nothing you say indicates that they are good on paper. So don’t beg them for anything. Rule 1 is you can’t change anyone but yourself. So walk away from someone that makes you so confused that you are begging them for their good behaviour. Remember to catch yourself if you’re begging. And move away.
Ask polly the column had an interesting question from a female comedian and her dating life. As someone else in the arts maybe you will find that useful. It appears in nymag.
I am having this problem with friendships with long term “friends.” They just keep going back to who they were when I knew them years ago. No deep discussion, nothing interesting to add about our lives now. It is just a play-by-play about the tedious aspects of their lives. Our exchanges are only them saying, “Well, I did this, then I did that, the he said this….” It is boring to the max.
I can’t help thinking I am not really friends with these people, but THEY feel we are being great friends after all. I even tried to get them to discuss something of meaning, and I was shut down. Then I realized, I am just a human Facebook to them – this is what I think. Their lives are only the minute by minute stuff of their day, no heavy lifting thinking allowed. I am finding I want to talk to them less and less, and now “I” have the problem…..
Adele, I just dropped a friend for much the same reason. His conversation was just shallow, casual stuff, nothing meaningful, which doesn’t work for me if he wants an actual friendship.
Well…I could handle casual conversation, actually, if he took an interest in me & my life but he just used me as his sounding board so I let him go. It’s painful for me because I don’t like to cut people out of my life but I’m not being his friend either if I’m secretly not liking him very much and enabling him to use me.
Rosie, I agree with you, I hate to cut out people too. Thank goodness for this blog, as now I have the definitions for what is happening to me down pat. He is using me for his fallback girl, I am over giving, but the best one of all is this. I now know that he has put a “reset” on the relationship. He does not know that he did that, but it is what he did. He is not smart enough to realize that when you reset a friendship to what you selfishly want out of it without consideration for ther other person’s feelings – you inadvertedly run the risk that you will lose the other person completely. This is what has happened. I can only respond to his emails after many days, as it is draining, and I get this immediate response. I guess I have to get out of this while I still can. Thanks for the validation.
Do you think it would be easier with some friends to plan en event? A movie, trip to farmers market, target, going to the gym together? If they’re not toxic, merely boring then combining activities might put their attention outside themselves and get you to do some things with some company. I have a friend that lives far away – we only Skype. I was very close to her and know all about her life, family, work, all her history. We have nothing in common now. She is very negative about life, judgemental etc but not toxic, she’s just a slight Debbie downer. I get a stomach ache to talk to her. Yet I care about her and want to be in her life. I wish we could live closer and I would go shopping with her or to the park or a movie.
Suki,
That is a good idea, but this friend also lives across the miles away from me too. He is actually what he calls positive, he is always upbeat about life. He has married women who already had kids, so without having a baby “from scratch” as I say, he has loads of money in the bank and likes to complain about spending one penny on anything. I just got this slap of reality when I heard him complaining about something he could have easily hired someone to do for him and I realized – this is not a friendship or even a “relationship.” It is just a play by play of his boring life. He travels around the world for work, and I knew him when he hadn’t even finished his degree decades ago. But none of that traveling lets him show up to this wonderful table of a relationship able to contribute a damn thing. I just realized, he has to know he is not adding anything to being a friend with me. He just flicks some “crumbs” my way and I am supposed to just gush over it? wtf?
He told me “Oh, I like to keep it light,” and I wondered, no he can’t keep up, so he just talks about mundane crap no one cares about.
So listen to this, although it seems unrelated it isn’t. Once around 2 years ago now, in some seriously bad weather, I went to a different gas station, and got blown around by gale force winds trying to pump my own gas for my empty tank. The attendant actually came out and pumped it for me, and it was a self-service place. This guy I have seen again, and I go there all the time now. We talk about life, the jobs he used to have, his family, when his son just got a really good job, what he wishes he could do instead of managing the station – and he gives me a hug when he sees me. He talks about God, spirituality, trying to make it in life, wishes me well and is now a “friend.” Point? I have a more satisfying relationship with the gas station guy Al than with this “friend” I have known for several decades. Al comes to the table with all he has, he is a stand up guy, who says “you always brighten my day,” and means it and I can be happy for him when something happens in his life for the better.
When you are EUM and AC, I am sorry, you can’t change and even riches and money do not make you a decent human being if you are not driving that train into a better station. Your advice is sound, just won’t work in this case. Don’t let your friend zap any of your life force energy though, and by the way, my friend has not emailed me in several days (after emailing me every day for several months and even emailing me when he went to the Middle East for work assignments every day).
Suki, if your friend isn’t toxic then why the tummy ache? That’s a clear sign of something poisonous seeping in, sorry.
I miss my friend very much. Yet, if it’s all about him, where am I in that? There are more than one factor to consider when weighing the pros and cons of any type of relationship. If you are OK with the cons in your friendship, Suki, then OK but you’re stomach hurts. Why is this ok?
Very good question about the ‘toxic’ friend. I think maybe I get stressed with the negativity in her life. I have a lot of friends with tricky lives, and I complain quite a bit too. But with everyone there is plenty to balance out those negative parts of conversations which are much more like sharing, and asking and giving advice, and plus tons and tons of amazing crazy hilarious talks. With her I get only the negative, and … you’re right. She’s a bit toxic, and I therefore call her very infrequently. I let it be about her, and try to keep things light so that I’m not sucked into anything serious.
Regarding what you said about the gas station guy, Adele, I also had a gym ‘friend’ this one year, and he was really great. Warm, friendly, we would usually just talk about regular stuff, but he was open and cared about the regular day to day of my life. Sometimes you don’t need deep bonds to feel like you’ve been emotionally nourished.
“…Then I realized, I am just a human Facebook to them …” Brilliant! Adele, it sounds like you have outgrown this set of friends and are ready to move on to more satisfying interactions.
I think there are an awful lot of people who are so self centered and out of touch that they sincerely do not know how they come across to other people. They seem to believe that by having all these “friends” (read: “acquaintances who tolerate being taken hostage and subjected to endless self-involved blather”), they are popular and well-liked, when the actual fact is that they have amassed a collection of people who just don’t know how to politely extricate themselves from a hostage situation, or simply prefer that to being alone.
I have let go of a couple very long-term friends who seemed to have some sort of pathological need to monopolize all the available airspace in any conversation, and whenever I tried to get a word in edgewise, they’d just talk over me or put me down with some dismissive remark and carry on with their dissertation that I had rudely interrupted. That looks like a control tactic to me, and I can do perfectly well without such people occupying my timeline.
Al the Gas Station Guy sounds like he genuinely connects with other people and is sincerely interested in them. That is what gives you that feeling of “This is a two-way interaction, and I am getting my basic need met for satisfying human companionship.” instead of that exasperated and desperate thought balloon of “How can I politely excuse myself and get out of this?!”.
This tangent is of particular interest to me, having just ended a 17-year bad marriage and now in the process of shifting my focus in the post-divorce cleanup and disaster recovery effort from dealing with the house and finances to salvaging erstwhile friendships and forging new ones. I suspect a number of BR readers have been or are going through a similar process of shedding unsatisfying friendships and romantic relationships and learning about how to co-create more mutual ones.
A year ago, I came to this blog DAILY seeking answers and relief from the pain of an EUM who messed me around. I remember reading here something along the lines of, “One day, you will wonder what you were thinking and you will no longer be attracted to this person.”
After months of many tears, second-guessing, fighting to stay NC… it finally happened – I ran into him at a show on Friday night. I was looking cute. My hair was awesome that day. I was in a great mood. I was there with a date, met some funny people at the show and I was enjoying myself immensely. I saw my exEUM there and I almost did not recognize him. It was the day after his birthday and he looked like hell. He sat in the front row, alone, texting on his phone.
And in fact, he texted during the *entire show* (this is his preferred method of stringing women along). At one point, a performer _broke character_ to tell him to put his phone away. I remember thinking how embarrassed I was for him. My date and new friends at my table said, “Wow, what a jerk” not even knowing who he was to me. I smiled and nodded.
He saw me later in the lobby after the show, realizing I had witnessed this call-out. I was laughing and having fun and he tends to think that’s a sign that “she’s in a good mood, maybe I can try to say hi and she isn’t mad at me anymore” (reset button). I saw him slowly getting closer, inching to be within earshot… but then, my date and I said goodbye to our new friends and left together.
My hope is that everyone here will have a moment like this when your life is so different and so much better and you cross paths and all the ways you’ve imagined he’s improved or changed – or all the times you hoped he would… you see him and realize they are who they are. You had to let them go. I remember being absolutely smitten with this guy but, a year later, running into him, I am stunned by how different he looked to me now and I know it’s because of this blog, the support and sticking to NC, letting go of my illusions, developing myself. It felt amazing to see him and unequivocally discover that not only didn’t I want or miss him, I wondered what I ever saw in him at all. xoxo
Michelle,
Your post is just oozing with positivity! So refreshing to read about someone who is able to reflect on: “One day, you will wonder what you were thinking and you will no longer be attracted to this person.” I hope for that feeling each day. I am curious… were you on a first date? And before “dating” someone else were you feeling 100% loving yourself – good – confident – happy or did the dating help with your healing? Just curious. Congrats on your reaction to those events!
I think that all the time…what did I see in these people at the time?
Hi Say Something!
You asked: I am curious… were you on a first date? And before “dating” someone else were you feeling 100% loving yourself – good – confident – happy or did the dating help with your healing?
No, it was not a first date; someone I’ve been seeing awhile now. We’re very comfortable with each other, no rush. It’s nice. I do have to say this website is *right on the money* with its insistence on No Contact, unfriending on FB, etc. as far as healing. It was absolutely crucial to my moving on from my ex-EUM and starting to seek my own approval, my own validation, build a life that is meaningful to me that isn’t open for debate just because a man wants to be part of it. My beau respects that – it’s what attracts him to me, in fact.
So, I think, in order to have someone in my life who respects my choices and autonomy… I had to show up respecting myself and my autonomy *first*. My current beau also has no patience for my ex-EUM’s shenanigans – which tells me something important about his maturity too. He has his own interests and life – and I am included but I’m not expected to downplay my own opinions or preferences to accommodate him.
I guess I would put it this way: Being with him helps *support* my growth into a full adult person but it wasn’t *because* of him, if that makes sense.
Thank you Michelle,
Everything you wrote makes sense to me. Thank you for sharing your story over the past several months, and for this response.
So true, Michelle. One of these days we will wonder why did we waste so much time mooning over the bad person. And why did we not focus on taking good care of us earlier on? Just like you, more than 1 year later, I am in a much happier, healthier place. There are so many things I wanted to share, from various sources that am hoping will be healing to everyone here in your current journey.
1) Flush out the wrong people over and over, until you are truly rid of them:
I remember reading in a book (?Soulmate –though I don’t believe in the One concept, there are many good people out there) about a ritual that involves imagining everything about an ex, all memories, all past associations and putting the same symbolically in a hot air balloon. And then imagining it going far far far away until almost out of space, where you can imagine it bursting into pieces, and maybe plunging into a black hole from where it can never come back. It helped me a lot when I had to let go of someone I knew was not good for me, but had had a stronghold over me emotionally. Keep doing that until it became easy to purge someone from even your thought life for good.
2) Know what healthy looks like:
Another key, is to start considering what does healthy, happy relationships look like to you in crystal clear terms. Look around you and start identifying healthy from unhealthy dynamics. It is a series of little things that all add up. But may look very different from those picture-perfect movie romances or romance novels as a guide.
3) A relationship takes time to grow (and David Steele in his ‘Conscious dating’ book):
Biggest Aha for me. we need to find out for ourselves who we are, what we want and who are we evolving into as part of adding another person into our life.
4) healthy relationships will encourage self growth. The person who is right for you, will actually love you more for doing things that are good for you.
Read this post and it gave me hope for a better, brighter future. And to share it with you all.
Sometimes I feel as though a couple of blog posts need to go together. Especially one of the popular ones on the list related to deciding if someone is only half-heartedly interested or even just interested in sex. Shouldn’t we take the time to screen someone out, before we allow that person to be in a ‘relationship’ with us?
A lot of dating (and even relationship) problems come up, because the guys were allowed to act as jerks. The biggest pain many women cause themselves is when they allow for sexual or emotional intimacy too early on, before even checking if the guy is the right candidate for them. Why do a lot of women feel so obligated to put out the fires, so as to speak and disrespect their own needs? It tends to cloud judgments and they end up sticking with jerks way longer than they would have otherwise.
It makes me very angry when I see a lot of guys go into ‘dating’ only with the purpose of getting laid, and many women allowing it to happen because they think they have no other choice.