Sometimes we’re so focused on how we see things, what we want, being right and basically having our own way, that we might forget that this is all well and good if we’re on our own but not so good if there’s another person involved. We stop caring about whether what we want is the other person’s agenda (which would make it a joint agenda) and even though it might feel like what we’re doing is for the ‘greater good’ of the relationship – ‘We’ll both be so much better and happy if I get things to go my way’ – ultimately us both not being on the same page and working together contributes to the overall poor health of the very thing that we want – the relationship.
If it feels like you’re battling with somebody for a relationship, if it feels like you’re a bailiff trying to collect enough goods to the value of the ‘relationship debt’ that you think you’re owed due to the costs that you feel that you’ve expended, and if it basically amounts to you trying to get your way over this person, halt.
Not only is this unhealthy but it’s very solo-minded which runs counter to the very thing you’ve become blinded about in trying to achieve it – the relationship. If it’s not a mutual relationship where you have two people stepping up of their own free will with responsibility, accountability, shared values, mutual love, care, trust and respect plus the landmarks including intimacy and consistency, that’s a code red alert.
If you imagine starting your own business with the purpose of achieving certain goals and the employee or partner you’re working with, after a promising start or plenty of talk, doesn’t deliver on their intentions or predictions. At this point you might try to troubleshoot the issue together which might pave the way to open communication, understanding your respective commitments and having a clearer idea of each others needs, expectations and wishes and how that fits with what what you want.
Or, you might opt to badger, coerce, threaten, cry, shout and whatever it takes in order to achieve your goals. Maybe you’ll opt instead to cover for the shortfall and effectively try to do both roles. Now you might achieve the overall business goals but is the business itself healthy? Situations like this are exhausting and victories can feel a tad hollow because you’re now running this ship with these issues and going forward, you’ll have your way to a degree but you will have to continue battling the issues and/or covering the shortfall. There’s also the knowledge that one of you isn’t there wholeheartedly and doesn’t have the commitment off of their own steam.
When you’re focused on trying to get your own way, it’s time to ask:
Is trying to get your way in this way worth it?
There’s a cost attached to going down this path and sometimes when you’re so very focused on ‘your way’, strangely enough you lose sight of you. Not only do you end up with an unhealthy situation but you end up with an unhappy you that’s likely compromising their own values.
Sometimes ‘battle’ feels normal because it’s all you know. It can seem entirely normal to be knee-deep in drama in a hand-to-mouth relationship where it can go from high to low, possibilities to gnawing fear in a matter of hours. It ends up being a fight with many rounds, not a relationship. Getting your own way might matter because you feel like you’ve never gotten your way, or that there’s too much at stake or even that you simply can’t handle ‘no’ and disappointment.
When you’re willing to step up for you as a natural extension of being you, you won’t devote your time to trying to ‘make’ people do things ‘your way’ because you already know that it’s not how you would want to live your life around others nor is it what contributes to helping you live your life happily and authentically.
A relationship is really about two people coming together and hopefully striving and evolving together for and to discover ‘their way’ – the relationship. You can both keep battling over whose way is the ‘right’ way or who owes who what, but as long as you’re both battling, what you’re not doing is living and loving together in a relationship. Find somebody who you can enjoy the journey with and figure out the way together.
Your thoughts?
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Natalie, I am SO happy to stay single, I do not want to have pain and disappointment in my life, I do not even want to try to date! I definitely need time to heal, and rid of my bitter feelings towards men…anyway I AM TOO FUSSY!
I’m deffinately seeing the merit of being single and don’t care at all if i never meet with love again..I don’t think iv’e gone off women or am bitter at them..But cupid can shove it’s arrow up its little ass.
Paolo, cupid will send you his arrow when you at least expecting:) x
I suppose i can’t blame love Little Star…If i’m going to play down red flags and bust my own boundaries then i gotta expect to hurt myself :/
Paolo,
I think if you’re honest with yourself, you will recognize that you made some poor partner choices, I know I sure as hell did.
With time to reflect and grow, we can make healthier decisions and not settle for shoddy treatment. This site has taught me so much, and has had an impact on every aspect of my life. I am ready for a long term relationship, and no longer fear that the world is made up of ACs’- There are a lot of good people out there. I think if we fear we will end up with an AC, we will end up with an AC. It’s all about getting yourself to a better place, then you will make better choices.
Allison, I am SO glad that you are properly healed and ready to meet someone special. I wish you all the best x
Thanks, Honey!
You’ll get there too! Have faith!
@Allison..I know what you mean…Iv’e had this thing for years where i’ve ”had a special place in my heart” for all the women iv’e loved in my life..It’s only in recent months, pretty much since reading BR that iv’e realised just how terrible those choices in partner have been and how completely EU they have been also..That’s not even including the AC variety…I like what you’ve said about the world being full of good people and not having fear about ending up with an AC…I suppose it’s good to remember where ever our attention goes and focus is at is what we will more likely draw to ourselves.
@Allison..I want to add too that this website has taught me so much aswell. More in the last 6 months than i think i’ve learned in 20 years…The ACs are still finding me unfortunately, but my ability to recognise and not invest my time, esteeem or emotion in them has greatly improved.
Paolo,
Absolutely!!!
Healthy attracts healthy!! 🙂
Exactly, Allison!- It’s like what my therapist said–we create our own reality. What we think about, we manifest because our actions follow our thoughts.
Rosie,
It’s frightening what we were attracted to! Uggh!
Never again!
Good for you Allison. 🙂
Thanks, Digging!
Little Star, I’m in the same mind frame as you. I feel like I am too fussy and most men won’t get past the gates. I’m the opposite of what I was which was too blind to see red flags…..now I have out the microscope so I miss nothing and may even be overboard like a red flag sniffing dog. It’s okay though. There is no law that says we need to be in relationships. We can be happy just the same without the pressure of finding someone. I tended to let men take over my life while trying to escape my own, so it’s probably better to use this time to broaden mine with fulfilling meaningful things which will hopefully prevent me from losing myself next time around.
Yes, Selkie, I feel the same as you said “be overboard like a red flag sniffing dog” and with all BR knowledge I will NEVER allow any men to destroy my self esteem:) I thought before that by meeting a man, my life will be “whole” and I did not actually paid enough attention to myself/my feelings and put up with crap in order to be someone’s lover/girlfriend! NO more…Time to “clear” my head/heart and stay away from dating, when time will be right, I will probably know;)
A red flag sniffing dog – love it. This is me to a T these days. I have even gotten rid of a narc GF in the process of getting myself back. I’m still on a learning curve but getting there and I know that because I am recognising AC’s, EUM’s and general d*ckheads and letting them slide by, I’m like Teflon, none of their sh*t sticks to me anymore.
I am starting to say NO without any reasons or justifications, this is indeed progress for a former doormat like myself.
Thank God for BR and Nat.
)Little Star, something in your post worried me. I do not question your desire to be single. Nothing wrong with that. By why do you say you are too fussy?
I don;t think you mean that you think it is too fussy to want someone who treats you with love care and respect. Someone who has similar core values and aspirations. Someone who values you and will put time and effort into your relationship.And of course someone you fancy and who fancies you.
I got the impression you meant you put too much value yourself on shallow physical attributes? Like must be tall etc? If that is what you are worried about, please don’t as when a man comes along who does all the other stuff you will care less if his teeth aren’t brilliant white, or he has a bald patch, or is 15lbs oveweight.
No, you will not!! Sending you hugs though and you are so right to take all the time you need. I am a very happy singleton and I know that sometimes it is my married/coupled up friends who are jealous of me rather than the other way round 🙂
Aagh sorry Little star. posted the above just before your reply to Selkie. By the way, loving the red flag sniffing dog. I think I am one too!!!
Tabitha and Little Star,
Two of my last exes had names for me…shit sniffer and Sherlock. Of course they were both cheaters up to no good, but I dug for more clues when I should of heeded the first few red flags and said adios. Now a red flag gets my attention. I’m working on handling red flags in a more self assured, calm way ( like Runnergirl 🙂 ) but it still needs some fine tuning. At least we see them now and do something. The wheel turns slow, but it turns.
No worries Tabitha, I am always happy to listen advises of my cyber friends, thank you! I am not shallow, but I do prefer tall man but yet again my two AC’s were around 5’8 and I am 5’3 🙂 so if I love someone I do not really care about looks!
Dear Natalie,
Now I am convinced. You have one of those cctv’s pointed right at my nose. You seem to see just what I am going through at the right time and give superb advice. You are GOOD!!! Listen, I don’t want to be a frigging psychologist, but more and more people seem to think that i should Mother them and they should Baby me! How dunce is that. Adults need to have adult relationships. True, I do like to call those I love Baby! But i don’t expect me calling them Baby to transform them into infants who need to be breast fed and have their diapers changed. I do meet persons with an adult personality, but in business and love, a transformation takes place that is really scary. Just going through one at the moment that became downright nasty! But, whew, I did’nt give it any energy and it is dissipating. Looking forward to not meeting this person’s equal ever again. I remembered in at the lowest point the safety tip that stewardesses give on the plane. Place your oxygen mask over your face first, then seek to assist those dependent persons travelling with you. This is my mantra, when I am tempted to go overboard for others!
Nice one – “I didn’t give it any energy and now it’s dissipating” – also going through this with work colleague who gets angry very easily and expresses agressively in instant messaging rather than face to face. Met the anger with musing rationality, and resisted urge to ask ‘whats the problem’. I’m learning….
Natalie,
“If it’s not a mutual relationship where you have two people stepping up off their own free will with responsibility, accountability, shared values, mutual love, care, trust and respect plus the landmarks including intimacy and consistency, that’s a code red alert.”
Funny that I tried to ignore this code red alert throughout the entire relationshit with the exMM. The answer I have to the entire list of questions you asked in this post is a resounding NO!
I must confess, though, that I did something that would not be advised by many BR posters. The exMM tried to rope me back in at a conference, I was somewhat cold towards him, felt guilty and sent a personal email asking if he wanted to talk. Well, he did, so we met and talked over a cup of tea at a public restaurant. In a way, it was the “final talk” I had wanted to have a year ago when I first ended things with him. Thank goodness I had that almost-a-year stretch of NC before we had this talk, though. He came out with so many “typical” EU lines that I was able to interpret accurately, with my BR knowledge intact, after having let go of the fantasy/dreamer “relationship” which lasted over 3 years. There were the “I miss you’s” and “I still love you’s” and “you deserve better’s” (easy to translate thanks to Natalie’s posts on translating their words) but also “even when I was with (OOW), you were still the Only One that mattered” (yeah, right!), and “I never want anything more with (OOW) than the way things are right now” (I wonder if that also applies to me – I didn’t ask – I have a feeling it *would* be the case after a while if I ever got back with him), and “it was so hard all those months you and I were not in contact – I really wanted to know how you were and what was going on with you” and “I should have listened to my heart while I had a chance, but… but… I didn’t feel I was worthy of you (looked like he was about to break down crying)” and, my favourite “I hate not being in contact with you as I don’t want to close any doors”. What? Really??? The funny thing is, he didn’t realize how darn simple that one is to interpret after reading Mr U and the FBG. This line was not “I only want to be with you, and it would kill me if you were not in my life” but *was* “I don’t want to close *any* doors!” In other words, he wants as many options open to him as possible! Pffft!
Well, I am NOT an option for him anymore. I continued to decline his requests for friendship, and told him I was rekindling my relationship with my exH. As we parted ways, and he said “see you later”, I simply said “I wish you peace and happiness”. I did not make any further requests not to contact me, as I feel I have “come out the other side of NC” as one poster suggested. A feeling of peace seems to be coming over me when I think of the whole MM mess now. I have forgiven myself, I am no longer feeling as bitter as I was towards him, and I am moving on. The days when I would try to get him to see MY way, when I was playing both roles, when I engaged in all that battling are *over*. Big sigh of relief!
Thank you Natalie, and the entire BR community, for making this all possible xoxoxo
Oh Learner, my heart was beating as I read your comment. I’ve so been there listening to the “missed me”, “loved me”, and how I “deserve better’s”. (Sheesh can’t these guys come up with some new lines?) When I went through it, I hoped I wasn’t rolling my eyes. Like you, I had some BR under my belt and the tripe was pretty esay to translate. After reading Mr.U, the Dreamer book, and this blog, it is impossible to keep fighting the battle. Maybe it’s a good thing we didn’t get our way? It is really true, when a guy is serious about being with you and you want to be with him, it isn’t a battle of wills. My answers to every question Nat posed was a resounding “NO”. Doesn’t it feel weird when you stop beating your head against the brick wall? You know, eff them. They are who they are.
Learner, you make me laugh! Thank you SO MUCH for scripting the conversation that I know would take place in a month, a year, two years if I ever broke NC, which I never plan to do. I heard every single one of these lines from the XMM, right down to the eyes welling with tears, and, “I feel certain we will see each other again one day.” Thank goodness I had found BR months ago, read everything until I could practically recite it in my sleep, and stayed grounded while the crap flowed by me. We were in two different movies! I am so grateful I never got my way. The universe was telling me, “Wrong direction!” It took me a while to heed it.
Well, he was right on ONE front, Learner. You are too good for him. God, how were you not bored to tears, listening to his unoriginal drivel? Good god.
Runner, swissmiss and Revolution,
I know, right?
Runner: I thought his lines about me being the “only one” while he was married with a long-term OW on the side concurrently with me was kinda original 😉 Like you, though, I also worried about rolling my eyes, but I think I got away with just laughing here and there (*at* him, not *with* him – he was probably oblivious). It’s amazing that I would have fallen for some of this tripe a year ago. I agree, it’s a good thing we didn’t get our way – at least the way we *thought* we wanted at the time! After I mentioned that my daughter noticed a difference in my focus and attentiveness towards her over the last year (she says it’s good I am done my “mid-life crisis”), I asked him if his family had noticed a difference in *him*. He said “no, they haven’t said anything; I guess I am still the messed up guy I have always been”. How could I argue with that? It actually feels quite refreshing to be done with the head-banging! Literally – I think I suffer fewer headaches these days than I did a year ago 🙂
Swissmiss: Yeah, I am sure the script has been spewed from the mouths of many MMs. This guy actually had props, too – wearing a shirt I had bought him while we were “together” (long sleeves even tho it was hot out!), bringing me the gift of a book he knew I wanted to read. The works! You are probably right to maintain that NC with the exMM from your life. It would be much easier NOT to have to listen to the predictable words! You have a point about the “two different movies” feeling, plus the length of time it takes to heed the nudgings of the universe/God. It took me a while, too!
Revs: ya know, it *was* a bit of a boring talk, lol. No butterfly feeling like I used to get when we met up. My main intention was to be sure I had not come across to him as rude at the conference, and he reassured me I hadn’t. The rest of what he spewed gave me no new information, really. I almost rushed him through parts of the conversation where he complained about work, complained about his son, had a “poor me” look on his face when he spoke about his ill wife. The only part that fully engaged me was the talk about our mutual hobby. Maybe you are right and I should believe what he has been telling me that he is “not good enough” for me. Thanks for that!
Learner-
Aw, geez, yeah–the props! I can pretty well predict how those items I gave him are being used today–to torment the wife. He does have an exquisite bureau of mine that he ‘borrowed’ (yeah, I know!) for his own place. Someone advised me to contact him and tell him to ship it (I am 200 miles away). My sanity is worth far, far more than that.
Isn’t it funny how we are responding to you as though you have walked the moon, and we all keenly want to know how that was? I mean, to sit across from him and listen to his drivel without twitching an eyebrow–masterful! You done good!
Haha swissmiss,
In some ways it *was* like walking on the moon. His way and my way are so different, we might as be from different planets. A space suit in the form of boundaries and BR knowledge was required to navigate the environment. My own supply of oxygen was needed to survive the incompatible-with-life atmosphere. A big bunch of energy was required for takeoff and landing, and it was risky even re-entering the earth’s atmosphere after the close encounter of the turd kind. Oops, I think I made a typo there. Oh well. So glad to be back on earth with my own two paddles with which to steer my own boat!
Btw, I agree your sanity is worth more than having your bureau shipped. Good on YOU!
Learner
This is very funny. Glad you moved on.
Yay Learner!!! It was a risk meeting up with him but you handled yourself beautifully. It’s amazing how someone’s EU is like a blaring siren once we learn about it and how we move on and learn while they stay stuck in their sick little cycle. The last talk I had with an ex ( who said he wanted to work things out with me) who had a habit of flip flopping between me and and his ex (red flag). I ended up getting really mad and frustrated at all the spin talk when I had promised myself I wouldn’t. I referred to her as slime vagina ( I know, not very mature )and told him they belong together in their sickness, kicked him out and said to never contact me again. The conversation leading up to that was him professing his love and a lot of the same crap you heard and then some button pushing from him reeking of double standards and triple standards if thats possible. Complete NC now with all lines blocked. The things we do……ahem, did. (this is where I forgive myself and move on) Anyway, good job!
Thanks Selkie,
Yeah I totally get your need to call his flip flopping ex a less-than-flattering name. It’s amazing how these guys can bring out the immature sides of ourselves. You are right that I took a risk meeting up with “my” guy. I wasn’t strong the entire time, as I did admit to still having feelings for him that are no where near as strong as they used to be. I just felt like he was being all vulnerable with his feelings (probably all a means to a hoped for end, but still) so felt I had to show I was human. Nevertheless, I kept the “no friends, no returning to how things used to be” message loud and clear. You know I think I DO know what you mean about “triple standards” as this guy also seems to have standards for “most men”, standards for “most women” and then a whole other set of standards that apply only to him. I never thought about that before, but your comment helped me to crystallize that idea. It is so fantastic to come to this site and communicate with people who “get it”. Thanks Selkie xo
Hey Learner! I am soooooo proud of you!!! I responded to your earlier posting when you were sort of berating yourself for even feeling sorry for him and breaking NC…and this post is just THE GREATEST!!! I am glad you did it and found the closure you needed, I am sure it feels very good to see through him. I hope that I can do what you did if ever I am thrown together with my exEU (it will happen, it’s just a matter of time because we share friends). I smiled throughout reading your story above! Stay strong!
Thanks Carolyn,
I am not sure it’s a good idea to do the face-to-face talk with exes, and its something I did “against my better judgment” but I was fortunate that it turned out alright. It does feel a bit like closure, but not fully since his words went round and round anyway. It will probably be easier now for ME to provide myself with some closure about this whole thing. I hope you are not thrown into talking to your ex, but if you are, I hope for strength for you 🙂
Oh my gosh. About my last relationship, which lasted seven months, I even used that exact phrase, that I felt like I was ‘rowing the boat with one oar’. Well, I faced up to things and turned out he was not over his divorce. Over her, but not the awful event of her leaving, which he never thought would happen. Anyway – NC now for four months, and I could not be happier! At last some real me-time, not hanker-time or I-need-a-man time all the time.
Natalie, you must be clairvoyant. This is truly a remarkable post; you hit it on the head.
The question of the hour ( day, moment, year, two years…) “Is trying to get your way in *this* way worth it?”
It is really a rhetorical question ( as are all of the previous questions). NO, NO, NO, NO and NO. This should be a magazine article with one of those self-help quizzes on destructive relationships ( Have you ever thought of writing a column for a magazine)?
Of course, I am skirting the issue. Since my answer to every.single.question. is a resounding NO, then what the h-e double hockey sticks am I still doing in this half-arsed situation? I need to love myself, or as you so succinctly put it, stop being an unhappy me that is compromising my own values. I AM losing me in this process, and I’ve worked hard to get back to a semblance of normalcy after my abusive marriage… not to keep beating a dead horse here by my redundancy, but I am sure your dear readers know how therapeutic it is to process your posts/ information and write about our own situations. Hearing feedback from others makes it seem more real. Yes, I am in denial, been there and done that so many times. I am like one of the people on the Titanic who refused a lifeboat because I kept thinking “This is the unsinkable ship. BUT THEY SAID…” if I don’t jump soon, I fear I will go down with the ship.
Thanks again for another timely and insightful message.
Pandora
“Do I want to keep discussing the hell out of this and trying to get my point across? This isn’t nuclear physics here!”
This really stuck out to me. Discussing the hell out of stuff is plain exhausting. It hurt so much when the EUM and I broke up – but there was also a sense of relief that I finally knew where we stood and didn’t have to discuss the crap out of situations (such as if it’s ok if his ex stays with him and what he REALLY wants from the relationship after his initial infatuation for me wore off when I said i’ll be his GF).
Not worth it.
petalouda,
I agree.The fact that there is a need for a power point presentation is a signal to walk, not talk.
power point presentation! Love it, Sushi.
another one of Natalies brilliant sayings 🙂
sushi et al,
Oh my goodness, this discussing the hell out of things, micromanaging relationships and preparing friggin powerpoint presentations reminds me of the time I got sooo frustrated with the exMM’s lack of ability to communicate in a thoughtful way, that I came up with an acronym for him to refer to while replying to me. The “RESPOND” acronym. Oh. wow. I am laughing now thinking how ridiculous his replies were before this, and how ridiculous *I* was trying to force him to answer my own communication with something considerate.
If I may, Natalie, here is the first part of the Word Document I prepared for him:
RESPOND method for replying to written (text, email, letter) communication so that the sender feels like the responder has listened to them and sent a thoughtful, meaningful reply.
Read message for content. Reread if needed.
Estimate the Emotional message (if applicable).
Seek to understand Situation.
Prioritize sender’s main
messages and Plan thoughtful answer
Offer your Opinion or input later or last in reply
Name sender’s “Number one” point in reply
Double check your reply for Double (ambiguous) meanings and clarify any you find.
Oi!
hahaha Learner, now THAT is micromanaging, or what !
Learner, honey,
You are on a roll! All that’s missing is the pincnez and bun!
I had RESIST posted in huge letters on every wall in the house. Not an acronym, but a bloody command to myself. It didn’t work, though, til I went NC, which I am loving. It’s a great feeling to know you have willpower and feel the emotional ties evaporating. I realized today how peaceful I am w/o him. Lonely, sometimes, but peaceful? Definitely.
I never, ever thought I was capable of that level of denial, nor understood what havoc it could play with my equilibrium. “Getting your own way” seems like the same thing. Not dealing with/facing what’s really in front of you: tampering with the hard evidence.
Oh dear Learner. I went through the same drill. I called it Convo #1 which I shouted, begged,threatened, and basically thru a giant tantrum in order to get what I thought I wanted. Discussed the hell out of it. Sheesh, when you have to outline how they should behave, you’ve lost. I really appreciate you sharing your experiences. I thought I was the only one.
Sushi, swissmiss and runner,
Yeah, I am embarrassed to admit I stooped to this level of micromanagement. And this was just the start of page one of the document-the rest was a full dissertation on the how’s and whys of thoughtful communication within relationships. I am so glad that you have also experienced something like this swissmiss and runner. It helps me feel a little more normal! The bottom line though? NC is so helpful in regaining perspective and power over ourselves. You are right runner, sharing our experiences is empowering. Thank you all for sharing, too 🙂
Oh yes…you have me howling over here. I’ll bet our dissertations of thoughtful communication are quite similar given we were trying to get our way with a MM. I’ll bet dimes to donuts, most OW’s have the same dissertation! It’s Convo #1.
So true Nat. When someone’s lifestyle, life’s values, goals are very different from your own, the only thing you can really do is bail. This goes for close friendships and family too. There are some things I am really rigid about; not driving while intoxicated, not driving too fast for conditions, no drugs. If I really insist on doing something a certain way, I take the responsibility of doing it myself, not trying to make someone else do it as I want it done. We cannot change anyone who is an adult and shouldn’t try.
Struggled with this today actually. I’m not sure if it’s my past or what but I find myself being told by recents partners that I throw tantrums if I don’t get my way. In MY eyes, all I’m doing is staying my needs and showing disappointment when they’re not met. But now that I’ve been told this by different men, it’s time to look at myself. I just don’t know how to ask for something and being able to handle a NO. It’s not just a “no” to whatever I asked for, but a “no” to me.
Diana,
I wonder if all those men were in the EU/assclown category? Many of us on here, myself included had involvments only or mostly with unavailable people. These types will tell you that: you are unreasonable, oversensitive, crazy, too emotional,psycho, wrong, you are imagining things, are looking for conflict ect, ect, while in fact you ARE just stating your needs as they are not being met by these clowns. They turn it around and try to crazy make and pull wool over you eyes to make you stop demanding basics- some act wounded, some get agressive, blow hot and cold. Perhaps you need to run a reality check before you let them tell you what you should do and feel. Of course it is possible that it is your issue if all these men are relationship material available people, but I found that all the crazymaking that assclowns threw my way did make me act crazy in response. Remember that your opinion is just as valid as theirs and instead of throwing tantrums you might prefer to use that flush handle if approprate. With the “no” issue, I found that when I got some respect for me and what I want I started to respect other people`s choices and it removed the rejection of “me” out of the situation.
the betword in a relationship such as marriage is ok It is just too exhausting to keep battling for our own way This has been a major problem for me throughout most of relationships. the happier relationships ive had are with the people that have learned to deal with this problem but the problem is that once i realize what they are doing im off and battling again. Sometimes its not even real issue im battling over. I have a hard time realiing whats real and whats not due to the fact that I was raised by a paranoid schitzophrenic. I feel that if I dont get my own way kaos will ensue . Its very hard for me to trust anyone.
you have to realize how commited you are to realize the benefits of learning when and what to give in on.
I’ll be disappointed if I don’t ever find someone to be with. Its a higher state of being alive than being alone. Single people try to tell themself otherwise. . . And they just have to keep telling themself.
Thanks for the post. If you can’t share and defer roles, its not a relationship. . . Its a control trip. “Righteous” singles would be well advised to remember it.
I think it depends Oc. Based on my experiences, being involved with guys that I was involved with really wasn’t a “higher state of being alive than being alone”. I’m not a self righteous single. I’m a recovering EUW who is done doing battle with EUM’s and AC’s not to mention MM’s. I’m not going to beat myself silly to get an EU to become available. I’ve fought that battle for 30 years. I’m 54, I don’t probably have another 30 years to keep fighting that battle. If I end up alone, it will be peaceful.
runnergirl,
an absolute amen to that.
I think those ideas of “righteous singles” and a “higher state of being” are actually part of the brainwashing that EU and AC use to get us to do what they want… and unfortunately, they are being perpetuated by society as a whole (and by ourselves, as excuses for staying in bad relationships). It’s a way of “marketing” unhealthy relationships to us. A truly good relationship wouldn’t need any “marketing”/fear mongering or the like though.
amen too runnergirl.
I think any kind of desperate yearning for anything is somewhat questionable (at least in us adults). Ideas like “I need a man in my life to be happy”, “I need THIS man in my life to be happy”, “I need THIS kind of career to be happy”, “I need to be size XS to be happy”, “I need to be a part of that particular ‘in crowd’ to be happy” (very common NOT ONLY in teenagers) aren’t about getting our REAL needs met in my book.
Very often, if (for whatever reason) we GET what we wanted, it turns out that it mattered way less than we thought… like when I lost a lot of weight because of some health issue and suddenly ended up being a size XS (which I had been dreaming of for many years) and this didn’t make me any happier.
The reason is that those wishes/dreams/yearnings usually mask some deeper issues that are quite unrelated.
Hi Oc,
Interesting. I’m single and feeling better than I probably ever have. I really don’t have to keep telling myself that. It’s evident in the way I feel about MYSELF these days. I just know it’s been a long time since I cried myself to sleep and woke up with my eyes swollen shut or had that horrible sinking feeling that I was being lied to or abandoned. I’ve stopped counting days of NC and feeling like my world was spinning off it’s axis. Am I ecstatic….no, but the peace I feel is what I needed in my life right now. Would I be happy to find a nice man who I can spend my life with? Of course, but being single isn’t like having a disease that needs curing. Instead of it being a state of desperation for me like it used to, it’s a positive choice. It took me a while to get here, but the view isn’t so bad.
Amen to Selkie’s comment. I agree word for word.
OC,
I don’t feel like a “righteous single” at all. But I can certainly feel with my entire being the peace that a few posters here describe. In my experience, THAT is a higher state of being than being lied to, ignored, verbally assaulted, treated like a second class citizen, cheated on, beaten up, or treated like a daycare and/or an ATM machine for a grown-ass man.
Having said all of that, if I DID find a healthy relationship with a good guy, I STILL wouldn’t think it was a “higher state.” It’s kind of like “six of one, half a dozen of the other.” There are pros and cons to being single vs. being coupled. BOTH circumstances afford you the opportunity to learn things about yourself, others, and life that you may not learn in the opposite circumstance.
Amen Revs!! Preach it, girl!!!!
Oc
Oh my, you actually made me laugh.
Oc,
Really?
A higher state of being alive??
OC, I could have two boyfriends by now who I met on Meet Ups groups. I thought: “OK Little Star lets see what happens, if these guys will help me to forget my AC N2” BUT I could not carry on meeting them, because I was NOT READY, and Grace advised me that I NEEDED TIME TO HEAL, but I thought otherwise. She was right, I do need time to be on my own and I prefer to stay single for now but I still hope one day I will meet my Mr Right:)
@OC…I’m Athiest so i hope ‘righteous’ doesn’t mean holy as that means nothing to me..Most of my relationships have been very much a lower state of being. That’s why im here.
This woman agrees with you~ good read…she grew up in a big family, and has been living alone for years. As time passes, she is not getting more used to it, she prefers a dinner companion, a cuddle companion, some one to witness her life. She only describes the emotional turmoil of the situation, not the practicalities or day to day nuances- like faucets or heaters breaking, or broken fuses, or getting sick, sans roommate. On the experience of coming home she quotes; “I recall the heaviness of the air striking me each time I returned home and unlocked the door with no one awaiting me on the other side, only an empty apartment and what the English poet Philip Larkin, a lifelong bachelor, called “the instantaneous grief of being alone.”
Of course being alone is much better than being in a miserable, toxic relationship. I don’t think anyone would disagree with that. But would anyone choose to be alone if the choice was either singleness OR a happy, fulfilling love relationship? Hmm….
Why would chosing a happy relationship that you CAN HAVE be a bad thing?
This belief that being alone equals being unhappy (or rather feeling worthless, which seems to be the true issue here for me) makes us choose to stay in UNHAPPY relationships though. This is what makes this belief so dangerous. Validation is NOT the same as happiness (but validation is what we are usually trying to get in bad relationships – NOT happiness!).
Also, what we’re usually longing for doesn’t really exist. We want the love bombing of some AC to last forever, we yearn for the love of our toxic parents who were never capable of loving us and so on.
True happiness (with a relationship OR without) doesn’t make us jump through hoops and it isn’t elusive.
Here is the link;
This was so me. I was hell bent on getting my way which played perfectly into him getting his way. The situation was not healthy or even near a relationship. It was a battle of the wills. Thanks to you Natalie, I can recognize when I’m going down that path and it isn’t the garden path. Even though my online dating experiences have not resulted in meeting ‘The One’, they have played out just as you have described. One thing I’ve learned for absolute sure, when a guy wants to see me, he’ll move heaven and earth. When a guy is “too busy”, I run like hell. Done doing battle with the “too busy” guys. Done doing battle…PERIOD. Maybe I’m just getting too old to beat the guy about the head. Maybe I’m just done trying to right the wrongs of my past? Maybe I’ve finally come to grips with the fact that I have a ton of shit to be grateful for. Thank you Natalie…you are my North Star!
Natalie I nearly cried when I read “Do I want to keep reminding someone to value me?” This is the situation I got myself into with the ex who brought me here.I think because of the hot and cold, I wanted to get the guy from the beginning back, the one who idolised me and put me on a pedestal, cos I sure did like it up there!
I fought and fought to get him to turn back into “that guy” but I did it by stealth. I never confronted him. I never argued or even stated my case very clearly. I did what you described, I sort of made up all the empty ground. As he withdrew I covered the wasteland that was left between us.
I have had a good hard look at myself this past 8 months since finding your site. I have to accept that I have a habit of wanting my own way. This is not good for me as it means I stay and fight in situations where someone emotionally healthy would bail.
Our society tells us not to be quitters, that we should work on things, and that there are no decent men left out there.
I am really fed up with this.
Tabitha,
I hear you re: having to remind someone to value you. It’s a losing battle. Sometimes I wonder if the EUM’s really don’t know how to value others since they are so self-absorbed, or if they “accidentally-on purpose” send off vibes that they don’t value their partners just to keep them on their toes, to keep them below their own pedestals, where they prefer to reside.
“Sometimes ‘battle’ feels normal because it’s all you know”
Reading this paragraph made me feel sad for me as a little child. God, the stuff I put myself through trying to right the wrongs of the past. Reading this post, which I feel is BR condensed made me realise the crazy lenths I went to get acceptance, love, validation. No matter what I did or gave was never enough, actually still isn`t for my parents. So soothing to realise it`ll never be enough but not because of me. My life is not perfect and I don`t have a relationship but for the first time ever I feel like I matter to myself. Natalie- you are a genius.
Sushi,
Beautifully said. I too never had an example of a healthy relationship growing up. It was battles and drama, lying, cheating and leaving and coming back. All a bunch of horse shit. I spent most of my life seeking acceptance too. And like you, for the first time in my life I’m learning to accept and matter to myself with BR as my guide. Yay! for us.
Selkie,
as fallout of my seeking to right the wrongs of my past I subjected my children to a lot of EU drama and bad relationship example. Happily, they also see the changing me,and they have been fed enough BR wisdom to sink the ship by now ( not in powerpoint format 🙂 They are both in nice relationships, my little available people! I am so relieved, I think that the bad cycle is broken over here. Yay indeed.
Selkie and sushi,
I can relate to lacking good relationship models in childhood. The wonderful part is that we *can* break the cycle. Our kids may see us struggle through some of the fall-out, but Selkie, how awesome that they see our changing selves. We don’t have to battle ourselves for a positive relationship *with* ourselves any more. We have choices. Adding my “yays”to yours!
Learner,
You read my thoughts as I was typing them. Isn’t it great how we are all on the same ‘BR’ page?
Sushi,
I’m sure I set some bad examples for my son with my relationship dramas too. The difference with me and him compared to me and my parents was that I would talk to him about it and explain that the situation was not ideal and that it wasn’t healthy but that I was working on it. It isn’t perfect but at least I tried to say ‘do as I say, not as I do’. He at least had some guidance and explanation where I never got any. I was not perfect but maybe I at least did something to change the cycle. We still talk about relationships and I use my BR knowledge each and every time. I even had him reading it for a while when he went through a break up (he’s 27). I remember you telling me when I was struggling with him for a bit how you implemented your new boundaries with your kids and how your relationship with them improved. It’s such a relief when our kids are happy too.
OMG, this post describes my relationship that brought me to BR to a tee! I was the one doing all the work, which means the relationship wasn’t mutual. It was totally unhealthy, but I didn’t register that at the time. I could feel something was “off,” I could feel it in my guts, but I couldn’t put my foot on it. It was Natalie that finally made me see the light:) Anyway, now the problem with me is that I still blame myself for being like this! Which of course doesn’t help with my recovery! I admit I was selfish because I only wanted things my way, despite the fact that my ex was immature, disrespectful and cowardly. And this feeling of “guilt” on my part is further enhanced knowing that he’s moved on with someone else and he’s now doing all the things that I wanted with her! Of course that makes me think “it was me”, that something was wrong with me and he couldn’t handle it anymore, and so dumped me. I know at a rational level that this relationship wasn’t healthy, because I behaved like an enabling caretaker, but why am I still stuck on this “guilt”? Can anyone relate?
Get off of the guilt. I was responsibe for doing exactly as per Natalie’s post for 7 years in an on/off/on/off relationship. Remember, it’s not about you it’s about him. I’ve stopped giving myself a hard time for being so dumb in the first place. Wish him well and let it go, he doesn’t sound that great a catch in the first place and I think you missed a bullet. So say thanks for that and take the things you have learned and apply them in the next relationship.
Sunshine,
I can certainly relate.
I think it`s safe to say that most people who end up in relationships with EU or assclown type people have low self esteem. With that, your default and deeply ingrained thought is “I`m not good enough” The fact that after your brake up they move on and appear to be happy with someone else is a “confirmation” that it didn`t work between you because of you because you are not good enough. The beat of “I`m not good enough” which kind of feels like guilt drowns the reason.You can`t possibly know what`s really going on with their relationship, she might have lower expectations of him ( doesn`t mean there`s anything wrong with your expectations) and she might be happy in a role of enabling caretaker. I think it helps to keep asking yourself, do you want him back as you know him to be, not as you are imagining him in his new relationship ( because that is your fantasy and low self esteem telling you: you are not good enough).
Thanks, Sushi and Eva. I just have to keep reminding myself “it’s about HIM”, not me. There’s nothing wrong with me! I think I’ve just gotten into another overdrive because I’m going out to this festival tonight and there’s a good chance I’ll see the two after almost one year. Whenever I see him, everything just comes crashing down on me again. All the hurt, guilt etc. And of course that underlying belief that I’m not good enough.It’s just so damn exhausting, this constant struggle in my head. It’s been just too long and I’m stuck somewhere in between. I would like to meet someone new that will love and respect me, but on the other hand I’ve put up all these walls and seem to be stuck in the past:( I have learned a lot from this relationship, how I was totally without any self-esteem and boundaries. And I will need to apply this knowledge to the next relationship. The thing is I seem to believe there simply won’t be any other relationship! Now isn’t that screwed up or what?!
This post has come at a very relevant time for me. Both my boyfriend and I are university students who live about 45 minutes apart. Often he will let a whole day go by, two even, and not get in touch with me. I have brought this up before and he seemed concerned but I’m back in the same place again after almost a year with him. I don’t know I am asking for too much but I really just want some kind of contact, call, message each day. I get stubborn about reaching out because I am afraid of being clingy and want him to reach out more often. Is anyone so busy that they don’t have 5 minutes to check in with someone they say they love?
Natalie
I think you’ll find the the book in the link below very useful in understanding your needs and your boyfriend’s behaviour.
Iain
Oh, and Sushi, you really got a point there: “do you want him back as you know him to be, not as you are imegining him in his new relationship …”. That really helped! Thanks x
Yes,that is a great reminder Sushi. I’m struggling with a lot of cognitive dissonance after just finding out he got married. I want what he and I were at the beginning and what I imagine she’s getting now. I definitely don’t want all the deceit, disrespect, devaluation, silent treatment, hot/cold, etc., that became the reality of the r/s.
I even know he hasn’t changed because I’ve been parsing out the the time line and he continued to pursue me and have sex with me for several months or longer while he was with her. And, even kept on trying to see me after I went NC for good over a year ago. I now know this persisted while he was engaged till shortly before his wedding.
So, no doubt he’s a scumbag but I still miss the “good him.” I wanted to get my way and still feel “special” to him until the bitter end. All the while, he clearly was no longer in an actual r/s with me at all! Ouch.
His life and r/s looks so normal and happy and mine is anything but at this point which I know contributes to not feeling “good enough.” I had a lot of losses and a nervous breakdown during the time I was with him and feel like if I hadn’t become so damaged everything would/could be different. The reality is that yes, he made me feel amazing for a while but it was never a balanced relationship. It was on his terms and at his convenience even when I lived with him. I became financially dependent on him and he took on the parent role and felt it was acceptable to punish me. Ick. I had completely lost my voice in the dynamic early on.
I logically know that this unbalanced relationship could never have really worked and I should have stopped trying long before I did. This latest news about him getting married has me spinning like a top, though, and in a huge amount of pain even after all this time.
I feel like I’ve been in suspended animation and waiting for the other shoe to drop, reading BR, thinking about him too much, etc., for over a year while he’s been merging his life with another woman. I’m still having a hell of a time accepting things as they are and not as I wish them to be. Sigh.
FX, well I can just say you’re not the only one feeling like that. I’ve been doing the same, ruminating over why, oh why I wasn’t good enough. And like you say, he has or seems to have this perfect life now, whereas I’m far from having anything like that. I know I’m focusing on the wrong stuff here, and what it really comes down to is that “it wasn’t me”! Those were his actions that reflect his character and values, not mine! I’m letting my life pass me by, still processing all of this, while he and everyone else is moving on! So, I totally get what youre going through:) last night I even dreamed they were going to get married, and that’s perfectly possible btw … Which, again, should be none of my business!
FX,
You will get there, I`m sure. If you put your feet on the ground…she has a cheater. She is maybe unaware for now, maybe she is so desperate that she takes the cheating.It will blow up in her face, it will.
What things look like is completely irrelevant.
Last AC I was with had an ex who hung around us, scrap that, him and I, like a bad smell. She was doing crazy stuff, waiting outside her house ( they were neighbours) to see me go into his place and out for hours on end, texting him asking how things were going between us, hanging around when we went out , inviting him for Christmas when I was supposed to be away, popping over, inviting him out for drinks. She looked a little crazed. He was complaing that when they were together and talked about his separation and wife she would defend the wife.He was telling me how special I was but the ex and the wife were not. I was so right for him, where had I been all his life when he was stuck with those horrid women. But,despite me being so special he was blowing hot and cold, disappearing ( turned out he was hiding his drinking problem)and it felt like I wasn`t rowing that boat with one ore, it was a teaspoon I tried to use upstream.That is what it feels like when you try to have a relationship with a Walking Wounded. He also had a very angry soon to be ex wife and a relationship under his belt after the separation which he described ” well, she wanted more”so they split up. See, he didn`t give “more” to his wife, or the two exes or even the extra special me. I now feel sorry for all those women and understand the exes torture, when we were in her face, looking soooo happy, and like I was getting all she didn`t. Until I had enough of that charade. Look at your ex as a whole person, maybe you are not even missing the good side of him, you are missing the idea of what wonderful relationship you`d have if he was a completely different person.Also, he sounds very controlling and if your relationship “map” is being controlled you`ll think that is where you feel safe and familiar. That`s how I used to feel too, it`s ringing bells of recognition for me. That`s why Natalie says, if it feels familiar it`s a red flag.I get that now.
Thank you Sunshine and sushi, I’m sorry you can relate so well but appreciate your camaraderie and support here.
So u figured out the timeline. Congrats. Means u were right to wall n go nc. How much time have u lost being consumed with finding out more about someone you know you don’t want.
Enough.
Now find something to do (besides checking his albums etc.)… get out in the sunshine, have a dodged a bullet ice cream cone, paint, sing, dance…anything but waste more of your precious time on earth thinking about him. Staring at the carnage does nothing for your healing… Ease on down the road!
2fearce, I appreciate the tough love. I was NC with no info for over a year and had to be in his area for business which triggered me and I googled his name. I didn’t expect to see anything since he doesn’t do fb or anything. My bad to follow the internet trail when I saw something… Even after all this time I was not over everything that happened so I became physically unwell with the shock of the degree of betrayal and callousness. I don’t know that I’ll ever “get over” it but I know I need to make peace with it and get on with my life.
I did go to an event last night and have a date with someone new tonight which isn’t ideal timing but I’ve allowed the AC too much space in my brain already, you’re right… I’m going to get a mani/pedi today and be nice to myself. 😉 Btw, I had a r/s with a nice guy for a few months and had some fun and we’re still friendly so I do know life can go on in the romance department with boundaries intact, with someone sweet, cute and fairly normal no less, too.
Perhaps, my sharing the fallout of breaking NC by proxy (Google) will at least help someone else here who is tempted. As a guy I used to know said… “If you can’t live your life as a good example, be an extreme caution.
I desperately need help. I can’t seem to let go of the man I’ve been on a rollercoaster with for 18 months. Recently caught him with another woman. This on top of catching him several times lying and spending time on dating sites chatting up other women…one of them was my own girlfriend. He admitted to seeing other women throughout our relationship and tells me that it’s my fault because I wasn’t spending enough time with him. I have broken up with him several times since January but he reels me back in with his smooth talk and promises. What the heck is wrong with me!! I have NEVER allowed a man to do this to me….EVER!! Why him?? I’ve done some reading on sociopaths & narcissistics and he seems to fit in these categories. He continues to call and text me wanting to see me…..talking about sex of course. Then when I point out that it’s just about sex he denies it and says he misses me. I want to hurt him as much as he has hurt me! I know this is wrong and simply isn’t who I am or what I’m about but I can’t help but wanting to try and keep him around long enough to try and devastate him as badly as he’s done to me. Last weekend I attempted to go no contact and had done it for three days. I went to a bbq with friends and posted pics on facebook…..one of which was of a male friend and myself. Next thing I know I’m getting a barrage of texts from my guy saying that he now knows why I couldn’t spend more time with him. He saw thew pic on facebook and assumed that I was seeing this guy. I was so pissed that I texted him back!! I blew the no contact…darn it. So now all week we’ve been having text message wars. I’ve tried every way I know how to make him see that his behavior is absolutely horrible and that blaming me for his lying and cheating is so wrong. All to no avail. This all makes me feel bad about myself and I truly need help breaking this cycle.
Jamie,
You break the cycle, by breaking the cycle. Disengage from him. Don’t play the game any more. He lies, cheats, blames you for his behaviour, trolls dating sites. I am sorry but he sounds like a creep. I know it’s hard when you are emotionally involved and have him on a pedestal but this man is NOT good for you. You deserve way better. Forget about getting him back/getting revenge, he will get his due, but what is best for you is running away. Fast. Strength to you.
Thanks Learner!! You are right. I am in the process of reading “Mr. Unavailable & The Fallback Girl”…….I’m hoping to gain strength from this. He did text me last night wanting to come over and I told him “no”. I told him that the booty calls were over. He got upset and said that all he has wanted is more of my time. To which I reminded him that even in the beginning when he had my undivided attention and plenty of time he was still trolling dating sites and setting up dates with other women. He had no response to that……as usual. I’m done pointing this out!! He knows what he did. I’m hoping for the strength today to begin NC.
Jamie. You are the only one that can break the cycle. I know its hard & it hurts like hell but you must go NC.
Looking back I wasted so much time on someone similar to what you describe in many ways. I caught him on dating sites. Of course he was just bored and wasn’t really on there to meet anyone. His obsession with sex & sex talk often grated on my last nerve. I told myself its a man thing. Porn sites showed up in the history of his computer. Every man does that , right.
The list goes on and on. It has taken me 2 yrs to get over this 9 yr relationship. I have gone over things in my mind until I cant think straight. I have read this, that & the other trying to make sense of non-sense. I take responsibility for my part in all of it. I looked the other way with many of above mentioned things because I didn’t want to face the fact that he was a AC. I mean he had so many good qualities to go along with all the above. BUT the fact remains he is not good relationship material. He is not capable of a committed relationship with anyone. It has been a long journey but I came thru the other side of a very dark tunnel. You can end the cycle when you have had enough because that’s what it took for me to walk away. I know I deserve better and if that never happens I would rather be alone than with some one who cheats, lies and has narcissist qualities. Flush him from you life and never look back. U can do this…
Jamie,
Kit Kat is right. NC is the way to go with a man like this, who is so emotionally unavailable that he cannot take responsibility for promiscuous behaviour and actually blames you, who cannot commit to being exclusive with you. It does hurt like hell, but the pain gets less in time and you feel stronger as you get your life back. Being a booty call can be soul destroying, and I found after I went NC, it felt like my body was finally my own again. Have you also read Natalie’s Book The No Contact Rule? I found that to be very helpful, too. You have the strength to do this. Hugs to you
Funny thing is all the above came to light in the last year of the relationship . One day he left for work & left his mailbox open on his computer. I sat down & there it was in front of me. I had to figure it all out in my mind & I still wonder how I missed so much about him & his life… Its over & done but it has changed me forever. The man I trusted & loved deceived me in so many ways …Live & learn
Thanks Learner & Kit-Kat. I allowed him to come over last night for a final talk…..I was done with the text messages. I wanted to regain some of my power back by looking him in the face and telling him that what he is offering up may be good enough for other women but that it’s no longer good enough for me. We talked for a few hours….him making more excuses and me saying “ok, this is simply not what I want any longer”. He actually at one point said to me “You don’t know how close I came to suggesting that we fly to Vegas and get married”. I felt physically ill!! I saw right through what he was doing…..trying to reel me back in. He tried to get me in bed too. I told him NO WAY.
So now starts NC day 1.
Jamie
Jamie,
It’s great to hear that you have taken your power back, while talking to him face to face. Good for you! Of course he was full of excuses for his terrible behaviour. It sounds like he was at a loss when he pulled out the “I almost wanted to marry you” card. Wow, just wow. I am glad you had the nauseated feeling when you imagined marrying his lying, cheating, excusing-making, blaming butt. It’s a good thing that you have reached your “enough” point. NC means no new pain from this guy. Keep reading BR and Natalie’s books. Keep posting here as you can. When NC gets tough, you can write down all the ways he was disrepectful to you, so you don’t let nostalgia for the “good times” tempt you to break NC. All the best to you Jamie
I always wanted a joint agenda with my ex particularly where the children, our relationship and our business were concerned. The trouble was when a crisis arose of something that had to be faced he disappeared. I can hardly remember ONE time now where he was in the picture or where I didn’t have to try to drag him into the picture to actually ACT when really serious things came up like serious illnesses in the family, work or economic crises etc.
I was so upset when this happened but I think I had a kind of “disbelief” when he wouldn’t act – it all seemed so obvious to me because this was what I thought partners did – face things together! I often felt betrayed in being so alone and having to handle things that were so important without his partnership, engagement, and even his compassion. I was the one who had to act and usually was able to move things forward. So his inaction got reinforced because I didn’t leave things to natural consequences – I couldn’t because they were crises!!!!
Even with our relationship which was so unsatisfying to both of us – he never would have acted under any circumstance (he told me this). The man has no boundaries OR self respect. He has turned this into a positive by saying (still)”I wish we had stayed together.” He punished me for being honest.
In the separation this pattern continues (even though I am doing my BEST to restrict contact) because we had agreements on certain things and, it is obvious that he won’t live up to things….he is VERY good at being given “tasks” like cleaning up the basement (his contributions are often cleaning up) as long as no decisons are involved and as long as I bear the brunt. Based on what he did to me last year I am very fearful of what he will eventually dish out because I actually believe he is capable of anything EXCEPT things that might make him look bad to his children. I see now that he is very manipulative and I didn’t see that so clearly before. I am fearful right now and I think I am right to be.
Part of the reason I stayed was because I kept questionning whether I was too harsh and demanding for wanting respect, collaboration, a decision making partner and appreciation. His behaviour and words (often very subtle) gave me the constant message that I WAS too demanding but the truth was that he didn’t want to deal -it was far too much for him and he was only comfortable with a silenced partner. I honestly feel like I am leaving a cult where I saw certain things and tried to resist them but kept being sidetracked, manipulated, cajoled (I am really trying to change) so that I didn’t effectively act.
It isn’t worth fighting and fighting for a relationship….if it ain’t there in the basics it never will be.
Espresso, my ex-husband had this philosophy: “If it’s meant to happen it will.” While there is some merit to this, it took me a long time to understand that he had warped it into an entrenched excuse for not putting any effort into solving our problems or working together on projects. Relying on ‘magical thinking,’ that the universe will just take care of things, in my view is the ultimate in lazy thinking. Yes, he probably did think things just magically worked out – because I was the one there behind the scenes working like a dog to make them happen! Nothing just “works out” by itself. And usually the brunt of this falls on women.
It’s a big red flag for me now and I’m watching carefully to see how people handle the problems in their lives – do they roll up their sleeves and tackle them, or just sit back and marvel at how things always seem to work out for them (usually because others are picking up the slack).
Worn out from dealing with foolishness, I too, am content to remain single and unattached. I have a blast engaging in fun activities and outings with my female friends. Men are simply too emotionally draining and exhausting…
I feel like this, if the dude doesn’t have similar values to mine, and we don’t share the same belief system–forget about it. I’m not interested in changing anybody, and I’m sure not interested in some guy trying to change me.
Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries…”this is where I end, and this is where you begin.”
I feel like this, any man that I’m in a committed relationship with, well, before I make that decision, I have to witness our ability to sit down and discuss relationship problems and solve them; he has to be a good problem solver and communicator. I’ll respect his needs, and he’ll respect mine, and sure we’ll compromise, but I have limits–I will not compromise my dignity, self-respect, self-love,…,…..
And, I’ve noticed the people in my life who really care about me, well, they don’t deliberately try and bust my boundaries, and they even go so far as to make sure that I’m ok, and that I’m not busting my own; it’s like they,re watching over me to make sure that whatever we agree upon is in both our best interests, not just theirs.
And, I’ve discovered that boundary busters are really easy to spot if you just pay attention.
“Do you want some wine?”
“No thank you, I don’t drink.”
“Not even a little at dinner?”
“No, I don’t drink wine.”
“Well, here, why don’t you try a little bit. I just got this bottle of…. Its a good…. Come on live a little. Why are you so…. Here let me poor you just a little. You wouldn’t want to rude now would you?”
“Well, wouldn’t you know, there goes the time, gotta goooooo.”
This was a great article to read and the timing was perfect. I’ve been wondering in all my lovely singleness how I might behave in a relationship if I was to start one, now that I’m feeling good. I got C’s and D’s on my last two 6 month relationship attempts. I was BR aware, but how I tried to enforce boundaries was more like a drill sergeant or head school master….”you WILL respect my boundaries and if you don’t let’s go over again why you should!” I got caught up in being right and not letting others be who they are, like I was trying to direct the unfold. I think I had it right with what boundaries to enforce, but I turned it into a big production to delay acting on it. Unwittingly, I thought if I could get them to change, I didn’t have to make a difficult choice. It was exhausting and in the end, even if they did start behaving better, it felt forced and I couldn’t relax. I was waiting on edge for the real ‘them’ to show up. They eventually did. Anyway, I just wonder if my ability to be comfortable and familiar with my boundaries has grown enough to handle myself a little better when put to the test. I like to think a good guy will not test these boundaries as much and need to change my mind set that I have to go out there wearing my boundaries like armor. I want to feel more relaxed and secure about it.
Selkie, I was fortunate that the first man who pursued me after the AC was a sweet guy I met at a business function. (Related industries and know some folks in common but no previous path crossing.) I was about 6 months NC and not looking for a r/s because I was still a little raw. After we had gone out on some dates, I actually just told him that I was not by nature a jealous person but that my last r/s had left me with some trust issues that were mine to own and he hadn’t done anything it was just the way it was for me at that point. I also said that if he was having sex with me, having sex with someone else was not acceptable. He acted like he was very into me – made dates in advance, treated me very well when together so I wasn’t being responsive, I was being proactive. I definitely slowed my roll compared to the way I used to be. I relationship talk so I was channeling BR. This aversion to laying it out probably accounts for a lot of dysfunction and “playing it cool” in past r/s that caused problems by my not speaking up and just going along. Anyway, he wasn’t really right for me in some ways but it wasn’t AC stuff and we still are friendly. I think for me it is less about passing judgment on someone else and more about knowing my own boundaries, paying attention and being in the moment without future faking myself. I think if you walk in with a finite list of any kind – what you want or don’t want (within reason) – it is a signal you are not open to real possibility. Just my take, I am depending on my boundaries and BR education to guide me without prejudgment.
I’m still reeling from discovering the info about the ex AC getting married but I had a date already set for tonight so I’m going. Hope springs eternal!
Hi Selkie, I’m with you totally. I haven’t met anybody I’d remotely want to be involved with so I don’t think I’m erecting brick walls rather than boundaries. Maybe the guys you were seeing were simply not on the same page. That’s all. I’ve given up on the battle. I think, for a while, once we discover boundaries, it may be that we turn it into a big production. So be it. Boundaries are a big production. If there isn’t a joint agenda and you feel uneasy, listen to you. My boundaries are now my armor. Guys don’t get a second chance to test them. I’m thinking you are doin just fine. Be careful not to second guess yourself and your boundaries. BTW, did you want to get your way with either of the two guys?
Runner- I know what you mean. After the last dumping with a man who, in hindsight, was seriously EU, I went into full-throttle dating hibernation. Seven months later, I find myself dipping a toe into the online world, a little out of boredom, a little out of fear knowing both kids will be off to college and my nest will be empty for the first time in 21 years.
I have created some huge filters and will not respond to or continue conversations that don’t meet my filters. In the past I would give serious ‘benefit of the doubt’, try to read between the lines, or just want to have some sort of attention from a man that I would continue ‘chatting’ or agree to meet. Oddly, with this stance I seem to get MORE messages, but I respond to very few. For instance, right now I’ve corresponded with one guy who seems nice but two red flags are starting to rise: I think he’s only newly divorced (if divorced at all), yesterday he revealed he is ‘out of the country’ for work, and he has started to write about what an incredible/strong/fascinating woman I am.
Really? We’ve only written back and forth for about a week, I’ve revealed little about myself other than the most mundane stuff, and he’s throwing compliments at me? RED FLAG, boundary has been subjected to a potential bust. So while this person seems intelligent, one thing I’ve learned on this site is that if someone starts throwing compliments at you before they’ve even met you, it’s time to walk, nay, RUN to the door.
Getting my way. I’ve become aware of some unacceptable methods that I’ve used to get my way. Guilt tripping. My sister told me about this a couple of months ago. Since then I’ve had at least one experience in which I recognized myself doing it. It’s not a very nice habit and it makes it difficult for your friends to deal with you. No one likes to be covertly forced to do something. I’m glad that I not only know about this trait that I’ve apparently been using for a very long time. Now, I can see avoid the behavior when someone does give me what I want. In a love relationship the two parties must be able to sit down and TALK. One gives a little, the other gives a little and assuming it’s a healthy relationship with love, care, trust and respect, you’re able to come to an agreement that you both can live with. Life is not a bowl of cherries and a relationship requires MUTUAL effort to sustain it happily.
Correction: Now I can see in ADVANCE my tendency and avoid that behavior when someone does NOT give me my way or what I want.
Tracy, I’m no dating expert so take what I say with a grain of salt if it doesn’t apply. I have a fantasy problem (Nat’s Dreamer is excellent BTW and so is everything she has written about dating). I can’t spend a week emailing back and forth. In fact sometimes when I meet the guy, I think they had somebody else write the emails. It’s meet or flush for me. In your situ not divorced means married. I’m like a reformed smoker when it comes to married. Badly burned on trying to get my way with a married man. I can’t do rebound either. Newly divorced or recently separated would be too much drama. Like you, my daughter leaves for college (again) soon and I know that empty nest feeling. I’m being careful not to fill the nest with drama though. I meet the guy ASAP or move on. Out of the country for work??? Hopefully, he doesn’t work for the Nat’l Security Administration…LOL.
Nope, I didn’t get what I wanted. Both were EU and doomed from the start. No amount of talking was going to make them available. It was a rigged game of emotional riddles I couldn’t solve, like a defective Rubic’s cube.
Jamie, this behaviour that u describe reminds me of my husband, trying to twist everything around until u don’t know which way is up and doubt your intuition. They only way I have been able to manage it after 6 years, is essentially stop physical and mental contact with him. We still live together and I’m hoping to be strong enough to divorce soon. It’s the worst kind of behaviour and you know it’s not in your personality. He even started comparing me to a woman he had affair with, as I write this I simply can’t believe u put up with his rubbish. And everytime his actions come into my head all I can think about is the peace and calm I feel when I distance myself. Otherwise I would be a very angry angry person at the injustice of it l! They do something wrong twist it and you feel guilty!!
Genki, I read somewhere here, someone’s post that “you know you’ve had a run in with a Psychopath when you get screwed over, and wind up feeling sorry for THEM…”
Hi Genki and thanks for your response. I too can’t believe that I have put up with this from him. I really do feel like a stranger looking through a window at my life. He has gotten into my head and messed with it BUT I’ve allowed it so I take complete responsibility for it. He wanted to come see me late last night and I told him “no”. It’s a start!!
Selkie-
That was brilliant. Get them to change so we don’t have to make a difficult choice. Wow. How many times did I say things like, “A good relationship is based on honesty. Please stop lying to me,” and, “Changing plans at the last minutes doesn’t show much respect for me, does it?” instead of flushing?!
FX,
Good for you getting out of the house. I swear it can be suffocating at times. A blast of fresh air helps though…a lot.
Just got home from volunteering at a women’s shelter; they fed me more than I did them. When I volunteer it always does way more for me than I think I do for them. It also adds perspective. If they can still smile and laugh through being homeless, I can make it through this. Head up n best of luck!
Ps… If u haven’t seen “The Avengers” movie. There’s a scene at the end that always makes me laugh. Loki (also the name of Norse god of mischief n mayhem) tries to tell the hulk how superior he is. Hulk has a hilarious retort. Laughter is good for the soul I hear…
This is so so relevant to me right now – as ever! About a month ago I asked someone I met (relative stranger, saw him weekly) to coffee. He accepted, we did it about once after and had some fun together. I was looking to have lunch or a different sort of pre-date before making my mind up – wasn’t sure how I felt, or how he felt, but he pre-empted that by (very arrogantly and presumptuously) saying that he just wanted to be friends, he was happy beng single and that he ‘got the feeling’ that I wanted something more that he wasn’t interested in.
I was very shocked and surprised at the time, and that’s how I came off. Thinking about it afterwards, I deleted his details and complained to friends about it. It’s been maybe a week since, and after telling him that I’d ‘text him’ to make plans or whatever, I clearly haven’t. I deleted any contact we’ve had, and have been hammering home the BR message over self respect and esteem over ego.
Lately I find myself thinking about this longingly, even considering ‘dropping in’ to his workplace conveniently to talk. It sounds really mad when you type it out, and I probably won’t do it, but I’ve thought about it. We won’t see each other for weeks, if at all, and I’ve somehow come to think that
– Maybe we should be friends? After all, I hadn’t sorted out my feelings properly
– I shouldn’t have acted so quickly in deleting him?
I don’t know, I feel torn between going after this and letting it go. I suppose i am partly motivated by the fact that apart from him, I’m not going to be dating actively. I wasn’t before I met him, and in my near future there is absolutely no chance of going out to meet people.
Thoughts?
D
Don’t go there, if you contact a man who isn’t interested you’re accepting his lesser terms.
D, There’s no reason to read the tea leaves. He already said everything you need to know: “saying that he just wanted to be friends, he was happy beng single and that he ‘got the feeling’ that I wanted something more that he wasn’t interested in.”
If you want to be his “friend” and not date him, he is available for that. If you want more, he is not. End of and Next!
Thank you Grace, and FX! And Rosie and Tinkerbell at the bottom – your comments are a good dose of reality. I’m proud of myself for deleting him and I need to work on my self esteem/not tying it to unavailable men! Thank you
Genki. Don’t try to hold onto him because there’s no one else and you’re wanting to avoid being alone. That’s not fair to you or him. It seems that if you decided to delete him, there was a reason. You weren’t that into him. First reactions are usually the accurate ones. Then we go thinking and mess up ourselves and/or someone else.
D. Don’t try to hold onto him because there’s no one else and you’re wanting to avoid being alone. That’s not fair to you or him. It seems that if you decided to delete him, there was a reason. You weren’t that into him. First reactions are usually the accurate ones. Then we go thinking and mess up ourselves and/or someone else.
Comment meant for D, not Genki. Gotta go take a nap.
Thank you! You’re right, my first big gut reaction was ‘delete!’ and ‘no, we’re not going to be friends!’ so I have to stick to it 🙂
It’s true, I went through the same thing, explaining considerately how the bad way he treated me hurt and it wasn’t acceptable….and of course the answer was no it will never happen again. Then I would hope like hell I’d get what I wanted and he would change. It’s crazy thinking now I look back on it…I never in my life previously had to explain to someone how to treat someone. It’s only now I realise looking back on it, after thinking about it, and BR has helped me see things as they really are, it is not worth fighting for. I can only think he is either not a good person or not compatible and I don’t really care which it is, I’m simply not getting treated well and not having fun. It’s taken me 6 years of an ordinary marriage and 6 months of really hard times to get it..and it’s such a relief I feel much stronger just identifying it although totally obvious it took me a while. It feels like a revelation but embarrassing that it was so obvious. But I’m not going to get hung up about that, sometimes mistakes are made. I’m learning about me which is a positive.
Yeah… I love living alone and enjoy my own company. There is no grief here. Sell that bs somewhere else.
D- Doing rhis by phone. Going by your post, it sounds as if you want different things, he knows it, so made rhe decision to keep it as friends. It also sounds as if it is ego on your part & also that you didn’t like his deciding for you.
It sounds as if you enjoyed his company but weren’t really into him romantically. It dpesn’t sound as if he’s into you romantically either, which sucks for your ego but good to know in the beginning before real feelings develop.
No, don’t chase him or visit him at work (This could be viewed as atalking). If you enjoy his company & can keep it at friendship, then see him once in a while. Otherwise, keep him dropped.
Look, I had to recently tell a guy no bwcause we want different things (I want marriage & he doesn’t). I enjoy his company & I respect him for being open & honest wirh me. He enjoys my company too & we are becoming friends.
I think a lot of the cognitive dissonance and fighting to get our way with AC’s is because we know that they do know how to please us. During the idealization/love bombing phase, they do everything right to hook us in and then once they do, they get lazy and dismissive of our needs. Unfortunately, instead of flushing, we keep banging our heads against the wall thinking of we just say or do the right thing, the person who swept us off our feet will return.
I still miss that man. A lot. He is long gone, though, so I am missing a ghost. Or, more aptly since I know what I know now, a ghoul.
Spot on, FX! I’m feeling exactly the same! And missing the “ghost”:(And feeling hurt thinking that he’s now giving all of the “good stuff” to the new GF. Ah, well, I just need to keep in mind it’s just an “illusion” I’m missing …
Great Post Natalie!
Not sure if this is really related to this post. I’ve been NC with someone who I doubt really cares. At one point he did. Now I think he is probably relieved that I am NC. In fact, I think he acted in such a way that my only logical choice would be to go NC. I’ve internalized everything. I’ve done therapy. I know intellectually why it’s hard for me to move on, but I can’t stop thinking about the situation that is truly old at this point. I keep looking back and thinking I can see the time when I should have “relaxed” and then maybe things could have remained friendly enough. I would have taken that over feeling this way. Somehow not being around him at all feels like I’ve had the rug pulled out from under me. And that’s so ridiculous because Im sure he has more than moved along in his life, and I’ve remained stagnant. In fact, I’d be embarrassed if he kne this.
SSS-
I was in the same place last week, then I asked myself, how are these thoughts hurting me? How are they helping me? Because the deeper question is not what I did whilst in the relationship, but why I persist in thoughts injurious to myself.
Swissmiss,
Thank you for responding.
Those are good questions to ask. For some reason, I am looking for where to blame myself. It’s like the “aftermath” is larger than whatever it was that went on. And not that much really went on! To me, though, it all meant a lot. First time in a million years I confided in anyone or let myself get close to anyone.
So, the answers:
1) How are these thoughts hurting me? They are hurting me by keeping me down, by not allowing my spirit and my light to shine through, by making me look for all that I consider bad about myself and all that I consider “wrong” with me.
2) Why do I persist in thoughts injurious to myself? Because if I keep myself down with such thoughts, then maybe I don’t have to face getting close to anyone and getting hurt. Maybe then no one will be able to get close enough to me to see what’s so bad.
If you met me, you’d never guess I felt this way. My outsides don’t match my insides.
Hi Still, I want to respond because I’m in the same position as you at the moment. I too go over things in my head repeatedly, all the points where I let myself down and where it feels like ‘if only’ I hadn’t said that and had said this instead, if only I hadn’t done this, then the outcome would be different. But it is slowly coming to me that I need to look at the bigger picture. We get so caught up in the minutiae and it feels like the other person would be remembering it the same too. I don’t think so. I think the other person has moved on, both in your case and in my case. When I think that, for some reason it is freeing. Because those things that I’m replaying in my head and feeling intensely shameful about (toxic shame) he has in all likelihood already forgotten. So it’s in the past now and as more time passes the less likely it is that he will ever think of it again. The bigger picture is, in my case at least, that he just wasn’t that in to me. He wanted to ‘sample the goods’ by sleeping with me but that was it as far as he was concerned. If he had been really in to me, my awkward-at-times behaviour wouldn’t have put him off. I bought an expensive pair of stockings the other day, thinking that they would at least last a while. But like all other stockings, they got a run in them the second time I wore them. I was regretting wearing them with a certain pair of shoes that caused the run but then I thought to myself, they were that flimsy that if it wasn’t this time, it would have been next time. No point regretting my actions because it was an inevitability. It might be a strange analogy but it worked in my head. If these guys were put off by a few moments of not-so-perfectness on our parts, it was always only a matter of time before they ditched us. If we’d been ‘perfect’ in the beginning, we might possibly have been given a bit longer of a chance but nobody can be perfect forever and if their feelings were that flimsy they weren’t going to last anyway. I hope you find some solace in the fact that there are others out there, torturing themselves with regrets and not moving on after a stupidly long time considering how brief the dalliance was. You’re not the only one, I think there are quite a few of us suffering away quietly where nobody else can see it. I’m hoping for both of us that more time and distance, and focusing on the bigger picture, will help. All the best.
SSS & Wren-
I hate this part, don’t you? Combing thru the entrails, pushing away the negative thoughts, wondering what he is thinking? My main fear at this point is that I will never get clear of it. Silly, because I have made progress, the sense of him in my life diminishes every day I stay NC. But you are right, the fallout, residue, whatever you want to call it, is so much bigger than what happened.
My affirmation is I AM IRREPLACEABLE and I am, because the MM and I crossed paths at critical times in our lives and no matter who we are with now, it is not going to be what it was. I recall those times I would see him, when he was back with his W, and how deeply unattractive he seemed to me. He liked that role, he was comfortable there, but he looked hollowed out, a shell. That’s who he wants to be: no one who shares my values, that’s for sure.
He had a fantasy that I was a selfless woman with no needs, who would make him feel good, and I had a fantasy about him, too–so interesting, so elegant, a man in it for the long haul (ha!). We created pictures of whom we needed the other to be, and as soon as anything much was revealed outside those pictures, one of us would walk.
I remember the stories about the police coming to break up their fights with the neighbors, the 19-year old daughter on drugs who lived in her truck (and to whom he gave no guidance but all his money), the massive mountain of ever-increasing debt…who was I kidding?! I could not have coped with the real him. I have to keep extrapolating what likely would have happened, if I had stuck it out, and it is nit a pretty site. I am convinced I would have become a deeply troubled woman. What I am going thru now is probably a walk in the park compared to that…
Hi Wren.
Thank you for responding. What you have written makes lot of sense and, on my more enlightened days, I can see this, too. This person was part of my daily routine, and so I had to change that in order to remove myself. It’s been difficult because my whole schedule changed because of it, and of course it’s not my first choice. So, I almost feel like I am paying the price. and I am reminded of it on a daily basis. When I look around at where I landed, I kick myself for not taking better care. And I admit that I feel sorry for myself for someone else not caring enough that I am no longer there.
“I keep looking back and thinking I can see the time when I should have “relaxed” and then maybe things could have remained friendly enough”
I can relate to this. I was in a FWB situation with someone who was on the rebound and not ready for a relationship. I figured that when he was ready, I would be right there…sort of holding my spot in line, as if I were at the the movie theatre or something, ha! I acted clingy and needy, and looking back it’s really sort of embrassing how “crazy” I acted at times (I had my own baggage that I was trying to deal with… I was on the rebound as well). I drove him away. Yes, likely it wouldn’t have worked out anyway, but I for sure drove this man way with my crazymaking. I beat myself up over that for months (more months than we were together). Then one day I decided to laugh about it. I claimed it. I owned it. It came about, actually, because of a comment from someone here. She pointed out that maybe I just needed to go crazy for ahile, and she was right. It was a part of my journey. I was batshit crazy. Yes I was!! But it was necessary at the time. And I learned from it.
Are you more worried about what he thinks of you, or what you think of you? His opinion doesn’t matter. His part in your journey was to show you some things about yourself. Mission accomplished.
So what if you could have done things differently? You didn’t, but that doesn’t mean that it wasn’t done right, for where you were at the time. I hope that you can show yourself some compassion and let it go. As for him moving on, he probably has, which means that he’s long forgotten you not being relaxed. So now the only one shining the shame light on you is you. Shut the power down ;o)
Digs,
Thank you for your generous and compassionate reply.
“The only one shining the shame light on you is you.” So true. I keep thinking something is wrong with me. Inside, I think this is some kind of core belief and that’s why I can’t “shut the power down”. Because in order to do so, I’d have to believe in some goodness about myself. How I gave him all this power, I’ll never know. I would have been the first one to say that I’d be the LAST to say that what someone else thinks of me has ANY bearing on who I am. But, ridiculously and unfortunately, that’s exactly what I’ve done.
Learner and SwissMiss
I actually had two therapists give me and my ex a “formula” for addressing cnflict because my ex was unable to listen to anything of emotional content no matter how well I tried to word it using “I messages” etc. He blocked, attacked, undermined, guilted me out and did the poor me thing.
So my forumula was 1. Have person with issue state issue using I messages 2. Have recipient reflect and restate back the concerns until the issue person feels comfortable the message had been received as it is 3. Take break so recipient could collect thoughts and come back with hopefully empathic and problem solving response 4. re-engage with the good will and message heard with issue person feeling validated and listened to and recipient feeling that they have been engaged and responsible. The objective was to try to give a structure to my ex which he could use to validate feelings. So how it went was like this in reality!
ME – issue brought up with I messages, I feel blah blah
HIM – What about me, when do I bring up MY problems (he never did at any time)or “well you did THAT to me yesterday or “why are you always blaming me” or you do that to me too.
ME- I thought we had agreed to use this method to deal with conflict and so these were the steps…..
HIM – This wasn’t the method…you have got it wrong…we were supposed to do this OR “I don’t like this method because I never get my turn” to bring up my problems with you.
ME- anger and frustration after several tries, me crying with frustration and hurt
HIM – I guess I am just such a bad person
ME – comforting him – no you are not, I never said that you are a bad person, I know you tried blah blah blah…..OR getting angrier and more explosive and then getting blamed for saying things like…”you always” etc. So the attention would turn totally on blaming ME!
I was manipulated the whole way and in EVERY direction I went there was a trap waiting for me. When he started arguing about the method that the therapists had recommended I said, okay, let’s not argue, let’s go BACK to the therapist and have him review the steps. My god, I wasted so much energy on this…so we went back and the therapist confirmed what I had said. A little while later ex said he wouldn’t use the method because he didn’t think it was fair. Now bear in mind that this is/was a man that was scared to risk (with me or anybody else) stating any concern he had at any time that had emotional meaning. He was just too scared to and so when I raised things he immediately took over the space.
He told btw a month or so ago that he finally gets “validation” now because his current therapist has really made him understand this. So when we got into this situation last week where I STUPIDLY mentioned being upset about a separation arrangement he did not follow through on …his new skills were exhibited NOT!!!
It was just stunning for me to stand there and watch him recycle through all the old responses like clockwork – blaming, blocking, manipulating an self pitying.
Beware too of men who say they are changing. My therapist warned me – that he would say he is changing and that he might really think he is.
I too feel so annoyed I wasted so much energy on trying to be valued. It was a huge waste of my time and resulted in NOTHING for me.
Espresso-
I was exhausted reading about your efforts to gain the clarity you deserved. Just power plays to reduce you to a hamster on a wheel. I know you are using those lost hours to create something beautiful just for yourself.
Espresso,
Thank you for posting the details of your battle. I went through that therapy routine, it was refered to a mirroring. I did it with two ex husbands and it ended up just like your experience. Egghausting!!!
When I was again in the depths of the battle and thinking I could get my way with the exMM, I launched into the mirroing with “repeat what you heard me say”. The most simple example, “if you are going to be late, please call me”. Low and behold, he could repeat what I just said. I thought I struck pay dirt. This guy could repeat after me. Problem was he actually did call when he was going to be late, which was all the frigging time. I guess, I got what I wanted which isn’t what I wanted at all! I’m the classic case of as Nat says: “There’s a cost attached to going down this path and sometimes when you’re so very focused on ‘your way’, strangely enough you lose sight of you.
At some point, it becomes too time consuming to keep repeating after me.
Espresso,
I could feel your pain as you described your attempts to communicate in a meaningful way with your husband. It seems some people are not ready to hear anyone else’s emotional messages since their own emotions are being kept behind a wall somewhere, or cause them to feel attacked when someone says something that could be taken in any way possible as a criticism. It is no wonder you became frustrated.
The exMM could not hear my emotional messages either. As neither could my exH – for many years. Now my exH has been through over a year of therapy and you know what? He IS changing! It really is possible with a lot of work. We did some through couples counselling recently and did a similar exercise to the one you describe WHILE we were in her office. It worked better while she was there to coach us through a couple of rounds. The second time we did this, she let my exH go first, so that he felt all understood and all before I had a go. It seemed to work well. I know you said it didn’t work so well for your husband since he is scared to state his feelings. My exH was encouraged to talk about what he *thought* about issues, as well as what he *felt* (subtle difference) to encourage him to talk. He had already done huge work on himself, also, after he had pretty much “hit bottom” as he ended a relationship with an angry, recovering drug-addicted woman (probably EU) two years ago. I agree with your therapist that some people may think they have changed when they have not. But now I also believe that people *can* change, if they really want it, and are ready. If my exH can finally open up and discuss his feelings at the age of 40 something, then other men can, too. I hope you are able to come to an acceptable, fair agreement with your husband soon. You are a valuable person and you deserve it!
If u have to walk around on egg shells and/or create all kinds of procedures for interacting w them, RED FLAG! Wish someone had told me this before now. Well I think I knew it but good to know its not just me.
Swiss Miss…what a lovely thing to say. Thank you!
I broke up and went NC now over 2 years ago. At first, I hoped going NC would help the ex eum get his act together and truly move on from his divorce, realize how fantastic I am, and come back as the considerate, caring, consistent and committed partner I had been hoping for.
I haven’t seen or talked to him since, but I have gotten an annual, unsolicited “birthday” note which reminds me what a dumbass he is. Most recently, he emailed to wish me a happy bday and to tell me a) that he had truly loved me; b) that circumstances were totally different for him now c) that he had met someone with whom he is now expecting a child and d) that I should contact him if I wanted to talk (!).
After having a good cry (I had actually wanted to have children with/marry this man) I realized that his note had actually set me free. What a horrible disaster it would have been if I had gotten my way! He constantly prioritized his needs, problems, feelings over mine and acted in ways I couldn’t respect when we were together. Perhaps not so surprisingly, he’s continued to do so with his self centered and manipulative yearly communiques. Besides, if he’s so happy with his new partner and imminent child, why contact me to brag about it?! Ugh.
Anyway, my point is that (in large part thanks to BR) I finally faced the reality of the situation and who this person is and, consequently, lost all interest in getting my way (it only took 2 years!). Thank God he’s someone else’s problem now.
Izzybell, I’m so happy for you! What brought me here was a MM, it’s taken many months of hard self work – coming on 9 months now to really connect the dots. Intellectually I knew right away what he was, what he did, but my heart has taken some time to meet up with my brain. I’m not beating myself up over the timeline, as it wasn’t all about him anyway, it’s been a lifetime of poor choices in relationships going all the way back to my very first EUM – my father. So, even though the MM fiasco was very shortlived (thankfully), what put me in that place to accept that garbage has not been.
Anyway, I am thankful also that he is his someone else’s (his wife) problem and not mine. I realize more than ever that he would have only continually created drama in my life and distracted me from reality for as long as he existed in my life.
I was so smitten with him, I wanted him in my life I was willing to put up with almost anything. AGH. Thank goodness I didn’t get my way.
I think I even read somewhere that sometimes it’s a blessing to not get what you want…
Hi Jewells,
Sounds like you are in a much better place too- nice work!
I agree– so much of the past two years has been spent working on me, noticing patterns, and understanding my own role in that and other relationship dynamics. It’s been a bit of a slog, but I’m happy to say that I don’t think I’d ever find myself in that situation again, or at least I wouldn’t take it personally and would get out quick if I did.
My ex wasn’t married, but he may as well have been. He used his ex wife to excuse his lack of availability, and something tells me that he was reaching out to me to see if he could use me to create drama that would excuse his unavailability with his new partner. Not that special indeed.
I think when we believe that no one would want us (low self esteem) that when someone comes along who does we give them way too much power and are willing to put up with loads of BS.
Although I struggled with my marriage for a long time I did put WAY too much emphasis on hope and intentions and was really incredulous about a lot of things that happened. I still am incredulous that I put up with so much because I wanted to believe him when he said he wanted to change.
Since I ended the marriage with one huge final betrayal by him last year I have SEEN so many other things thanks to BR and my counsellor. Today I felt very calm and I just realized (snip snap) that as much as could TRY to manage the separation through writing things down and “agreeing” – this was not a guarantee at all that I would ever be safe from his “intrusions” into my precious life. In a lot of cases it is just MORE discussing, power pointing and explaining!! My therapist particularly says that he is unreliable because he has no connection between his feelings, thoughts and actions. I now think that his constant “forgetting” and taking credit for things I do/did is a form of conscious or unconscious passive agressiveness. My big lesson to (still) learn is…don’t be surprised by anything and work into a position where nothing he does has any impact. I still feel pretty fragile and so haven’t accomplished that all yet but have been moving forward every day with looking at where I want to live, properties, selling the house…etc. I thought I would want to settle in this town but now I am not so sure…..
Ladies, a man has returned to my life and I’m confused and scared but also excited. I had gone no contact and blocked him after last summer’s heartache (I fell hard for him but it wasn’t reciprocated because he didn’t want to commit). I may have villianized him too much then because I didn’t want to face the fact that he just didn’t feel the same about me. It hurts.
The block of his phone expired sometime over the winter months and he texted happy mother’s day to me in may and since then, here and there we have texted. Then, we ran into each other in person. I was fine until he kissed me. He really knows how to kiss me, like no other. Now I’m back swooning and wondering. This past weekend, we hung out. I told him no sex and I was strong and kept the promise to myself that I wouldn’t sleep with him until he shows me that he wants a real relationship this time. I was so proud of myself but it’s damn hard because I really want him. He said he wasn’t seeing anyone else. When I told him I was scared of being hurt, he said he is leary of believing someone too and getting hurt too. He honored my request to not do the sex thing and we just cuddled and had coffee in the morning. He told me he was starting to see that I’m a very positive person and that traveling with and doing stuff with someone is much more fun than being alone. I am being careful and cautious and also keeping my options open if I get asked on date by anyone else. BUT HE is the one on my mind constantly. I will hold strong on the no sex unless he says he is willing to try with me. Now that I’m starting to feel for him again, I’m so afraid he will reject a relationship with me again. But then I will know the truth, right? I’m terrified.
Fire
No sex guarantees nothing. I didn’t have sex with my ex of one year and I still got heartbroken. And he was actually committed.
I’m not saying never date again but is there anything concrete here? All sounds a bit fearful, vague and dramatic.
Better to be safe than sorry and terrified. Do You think he has changed? It is possible with lots of therapy and most of all their willingness to see with acute clarity how they hurt others. If he’s not moving in that direction of a healthy relationship with himself and other people, I don’t see any point in digging up the past.
Fire, Kissing, swooning and hanging out is not a relationship. Him wanting to do stuff with you because it’s more fun than being alone is not a relationship. I don’t hear anything yet that sounds like he’s serious about much more than enjoying some sex if you’ll let him. That would be a big mistake. Sex shouldn’t even remotely be in the picture until he has proven himself – that means showing he has changed since last year (he didn’t want to commit last year – so what’s changed?), showing he has learned something from last year, showing that his words do indeed match his actions, showing (with no red flags) that he is serious and capable of being a quality, truly caring partner. You will hold strong “unless he says he is willing to try with me” – what does that mean? Sounds very vague to me. Vague usually equals getting your heart broken in short order…
Try to put your heart and libido on hold and really WATCH him, observe his words and actions, how much is he willing to talk about his feelings about relationships, how respectful is he of your feelings, and so on. Let him unfold first. Let him court you. On the other hand, if you have the hots for him and really want him, you can always choose to have sex. It would probably be great sex. However, I would guess that it’s unlikely a relationship will follow.
Thank you Runnergirl and Learner – I really appreciate your empathy and understanding!!!
Right now I am having so many light bulbs go off that I could illuminate a city. I realized last night that after these miserable and destructive interactions where I am blocked, put down, guilted out and manipulated my ex goes away and NEVER says anything at ALL but after a period of time starts running around “being nice” – like finally reading the book on selling the house and suddenly making suggestions whereas he was leaving all up to me before – so I realize this is part of his manipulative pattern…never ever actually have a conversation and a statement of understanding, enlightenment or empathy but doing things as if this takes care of what has happened – I see now that this is actually VERY passive aggressive. Do hurtful things, don’t have an adult emotional engagement about it and then try to assuage (his) guilt by being able to say, “look, aren’t I nice?”
I think he is/was doing it far more for HIMSELF than for me. To be honest I feel sick physically when this happens. Sort of knifing somebody in the back and while they are bleeding on the floor offering to clean up the kitchen. REALLY! And it sometimes worked because I would think…why am I SO ANGRY at somebody who is trying to be nice. No more. I get it.
Espresso,
Interesting to read your description of this pattern of behaviour as I experienced it with my father and the AC. Not them necessarily doing anything nice for me, but acting chipper and as though everything is great, and expecting me to play along. I suppose it’s similar to the honeymoon phase that is described in the cycle of physical abuse.
I am not trying to get my ex to change anymore. Perhaps he can (for somebody else) but he is 60+ and he has been in therapy on and off for years. There have been some situations recently where if he had handled them in a different way I would have been happy thinking that they would indicate that we could have had a constructive separation and post separation arrangement. When issues with emotional content come up or decisions have to be made he snaps back into the old patterns and I am noticing even MORE quickly and destructively than before. I don’t even think he is working on this in therapy anyway. He told me that he is working on being more spontaneous.
So my question is how to protect myself more effectively.
I realize that, despite all my self talk, my putting up boundaries, my limited communication, his actions and words still trigger me immensely and sometimes in NEW ways…. I am SEEING new things related to his manipulation of me and his subtle chopping at me that my gut had seen but I had never fully acknowledged. For the first time in my life I have been having to deal with panic attacks. Also, because I am not seeking to change him I have to completely shut up when stuff happens that affects me in order to avoid getting into these conflicts and dramas, which makes me feel weird because I am not an automaton and always want to try to resolve things with people. I need to find a more stable place to live in the next few months (I have been back and forth to other places while he has done nothing and says he can’t/ won’t) and get out of this otherwise I feel I will explode. He has undermined our separation in subtle and not so subtle ways and made me do all the work. I accept that because I have no alternative but don’t need this life sucking sht to deal with at the same time. And I need to give up my hope of a good relationship post marriage. Not a good day for me..so back to BR. Excuse my rant.
Espresso,
When the panic attacks start and you start feeling physically ill, as awful as that is, I think it’s a sign of healing. All the illusions, denial, excuses, etc. are falling away and you are left facing things as they are. Your body is feeling the truth first, before your mind does, and it’s trying like mad to get your attention, as my therapist says. This feels like absolute hell, but she says it’s really the first step to healing.
At the same time, it’s enormously stressful and dangerous if the stress gets way out of control. The thing to do now is protect yourself, as you rightly intuited. That’s the MOST important thing. It sounds like interactions with your ex are so dysfunctional and volatile that the only solution is to sever all your ties as as soon as possible. What can you do to limit how your ex’s actions affect you? What does protecting yourself look like? Can your lawyer handle more of the interactions so you don’t have to? You’re coming to a boiling point with your rage and frustration – that’s understandable, but be careful you don’t end up turning it against yourself. Take care of YOU!
Wiser – your post is exactly what I needed to hear today. It is so good to hear that this is a part of healing when sometimes I feel like I am stuck emotionally. I have been doing a lot of work on identifying triggers too and they are all over the place so it feels like an onslaught. I thought I had connected the dots but there was a whole chapter of dots that I had ignored or didn’t even know about. I see that I need to also take some different actions now and try to move them forward faster if I can in order to protect myself. My ex isn’t making this easy. thank you…this REALLY helped me.
ok all ye red flag sniffing bitches (ie female dogs), I not only sniff em but proudly ponce laps of the oval waving those red flags on high like grand trophies! oh yes indeedy. a red flag in my jaws is far better than them becoming a pain in my ass!! LOL 😉
OMFG Learner! That acronym business was just too funny! I’m howling here! LMFAO
Sushi I disagree tht most ppl who end up in r.shits w ppl who r AC’s hav low self esteem. A lot of what is identified here as AC behaviour is in fact also consistent with traits associated with various sub types of personality disorders (eg narrcissistic or anti social), sociopathy or psychopathy. ANYONE, including equally ppl with healthy self esteem, can find themselves victimised or targeted by predators who are utterly ruthless & reptilian in their lack of empathy &/or compassion, due to the moral deficits & traits which charactarise these disorders. I would rather posit (more accurately imo), that LOWERED self esteem is a typical consequence of most such encounters, as opposed to a precursor to them.
Expresso & A, I think the pattern of behaviour yr describing is the other party hitting the reset button. The doing of nice things whilst ignoring their latest wrongdoings is the spoonful of sugar designed to distract u frm more of the same foul guff that will soon follow… A, it is a bit like the honeymoon phase in the cycle of abuse… & you know what comes next!!
WOW thanks for the tea and sympathy (not)! I won’t post on here again. Everyone else gets endless encouragement and kind words I get told to snap out of it and get on with my life. I know a fwb isn’t my boyfriend and he can do what he wants but all the exes and married men your all pining over aren’t your boyfriends either but you still analysing the hell out of it! Just cos a fwb isn’t a real relationship doesn’t mean i don’t have feelings and am not hurt. All you women that screw married men aren’t in a real realtionship you are just bedding another woman’s husband, but apparently that deserves sympathy! No the poor wives deserve sympathy.
sorry i meant to post this on the previous article, not aimed at any comments made here!
Nicola,
Clearly that was not the answer u wanted to hear…. as u took it as an opportunity to slam the responder n mean bomb several others. What you’ve missed in reading the posts here is that while we are supportive, we are also honest with each other.
One date n a we should do something next month does not warrant a scathing email or conversation. So yeah, get over urself.
Ps— It’s strangely perfect u responded on this post instead… Perhaps u should read the post attached to this comment section (a few more times).