Part of the reason why unhealthy relationships and their even unhealthier breakups drag on long past their sell-by-date, is because there is this idea that the other person holds the key to ‘closure’, this sense of resolution at the end of the relationship or post breakup and this sense that it’s been ‘resolved’. This can mean resolving the questions that the relationship may have brought up or still be bringing up, or attempting to understand the other person, or attempting to understand every last thing that went on in the relationship and in the worst of cases, it’s basically like attempting to seek 100% of the answers before we feel that we can put the relationship down.
The trouble is, that if you imagine the day you broke up as the end of the relationship and then you don’t go through the grieving process and work through your feelings and process what happened, and instead you choose to keep engaging with them, breaking up and getting back together, trying to get their attention and validation, doing things to stem the perceived rejection that you later come to view as at best embarrassing, and other such things, it’s like you’ve got the meter running. At some point you’ve got to know when to exit from this closure quest and turn the meter off before you overinvest in it.
Closure becomes increasingly hard the more stuff you pile onto it to leave you feeling like there are so many unanswered questions.
The chief source of closure issues is blame, most likely to be of the self-blame variety that stems from having an ‘overactive blame thyroid’. If you keep making everything about you and essentially holding you responsible for Other People’s Behaviour, then yeah, you’re going to have closure issues because by not only taking away their responsibility and effectively erasing them out of the picture by making what happened all about you and your ‘flaws’ or ‘eff ups’, how can you reach a resolution? You’ll think, “Oh if only I hadn’t been X or I hadn’t done Y, then they would have done Z or A wouldn’t have happened”.
Who moves on when they’re stuck in their own self-imposed prison living out a sentence they’ve determined from a distorted perspective?
And here’s the interesting thing that I pointed out to someone yesterday: We can’t have it both ways. We can’t be a relationship hogger blaming ourselves as if it all went tits up based on our ‘one false move’ and then in the same breath after putting it all on us, claim that we need the other person for closure. So let me get this right: You don’t need them to be accountable and responsible in the relationship and own their own? You don’t need, even if it’s purely a mental thing, for you to separate the two of you out and see things in reality and recognise their own contribution, but you do need them to step up and give you closure for something that you won’t even give them their own stake in?
That just doesn’t even make sense.
What we don’t realise is that many of us use this idea of seeking closure as a means of avoiding using our own judgement and engaging in decision-making, and to avoid this perennial fear of ‘making a mistake’.
Closure then becomes looking to be at least 100% certain that it wasn’t your fault, or that you did everything that you could do (which may include taking the blame and the responsibility for the other person’s contribution) and that the relationship is unworkable and that they’re not going to change into a better person in a better relationship as soon as your back is turned. Of course if you actually want to move on, you’ll do so before ‘100%’ especially as it’s subjective. You’ve got to know when to close the investigation. I know people who walk away and move on after being treated in a less-than manner and I know people who walk away and thenblame themselves and get a Ph.D in ruminating on another person and blame absorbing. The difference? The former doesn’t see themselves as a manifestation of other people’s behaviour. They own their own and let others own theirs for the sake of their emotional peace.
Ironically, we also use seeking closure to avoid closure.
We don’t want it to be resolved because then we have to let it go and work through the grief and move on. We have to take action, address any of our own issues and basically, we have to let go of a security blanket that may have become our purpose.
We cannot always get all of the answers especially when those answers are being sought from people who don’t want to give them, who talk out of their bums and are avoiding as much honesty in their own lives as possible, or who aren’t around anymore.
We cannot always get all of the answers. It’s unrealistic. I’ve seen very bad things happen to very lovely people. They were devastated and no of course it all didn’t make sense but gradually between grief, and looking inwardly (if needed) along with supporting themselves and sometimes professional support, life and who they were started to make sense again in a positive way, even if this person or this event didn’t make sense in the fullest sense. Hell I’ve seen people go through a whole court case and come out with more questions than they had when they started.
You were not the only person in this relationship. Yes it would be handy if they’d come back and be debriefed for 24 hours in a holding cell but that’s not going to happen and how about you debrief you?
Experiencing a loss (and yes that includes breakups because it’s the loss of your hopes and expectations that were tied up in the relationship), a betrayal or just something that’s very painful, takes time to work through but feeling all of your feelings and processing what happened is actually an opportunity to get to know you further and gain self-awareness in a positive way. Knowing you better helps you to make better decisions and to also live your life more authentically and in turn, pain can turn into growth because you are able to find that sense of resolution within you.
Your thoughts?
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I’m on the other side of this. My husband had an affair with this woman, he dumped her and went NC to save our marriage but 18 months later she still won’t let go! She emails every couple of weeks (an email we can’t get changed) and isn’t deterred by being ignored. She begs, threatens, argues, accuses us of being in denial so not giving her “resolution”…. How on earth does someone like that get the message that there’s really nothing to hash over. Loving his wife was reason enough to throw her under the bus and that’s all she really needs to know. The rest is in her own head.
How do you get someone to give themselves closure and leave you alone?
If I wasn’t strict on myself to never respond to her provocation I’d send her a link to your blogpost!
can you not block her email address?
Libby
I agree, she does need to give herself closure and move on. However, without knowing the situation I would guess that there are particular reasons for her behaviour. Firstly “loving his wife” apparently didn’t stop him from getting involved with her in the first place. Secondly, he may have told her that he did not love you but loved her. If he did these things, has he expressed any remorse for have lied to her and then “thrown her under a bus”?. Does he not accept that he treated both of you in a shoddy way, he lied to and betrayed you both?
Why do you even want to stay with this creep who “throws women under buses”?
And ultimately you can always get a court order to stop he emailing, and there’s no email address in this world that you cant change or block particular people. Unless that is you’re getting a wee thrill out of the drama.
I would say the wee thrill is a bit passive aggressive, he’s the one who should be thrown under the bus. That cheater will repeat his cheating, because he’s a liar. He lied to both of them, and he got his cake and now eating it too. Meanwhile that man is probably feeling like a victim, instead of a cheater and a user.
Agree!
Hi LibbyPachouli. Just a suggestion but why bother opening and reading the emails? If you see the sender just click and delete! Also, I’m sure there is some method where you could get her email addressed marked as spam and then it just goes in the spam folder… delete, delete, delete………
You can block emails. She is certainly obsessed and undignified, could hint at a deeper personality disorder. Is she dangerous? If her stalking escalates or keeps wearing on you, then maybe also get legal advice and draft a reply letting her know you have archived all of her contacts post breakup and are considering harassment charges….
Libby,
Let me share a bit what it is to be “on the other side” of this, having been an OW to my last assclown for ten years…
Before I do, rest assured, I understand the place you are coming from, because ironically, I was there too, in a 20 year marriage…with a CHRONIC infidel and psychopath.
First of all, what screamed at me from your post was the VENOM that appears in your words. Understandably, there is anger on your part, however, it’s aimed at the wrong person. She was a SYMPTOM of a deeper problem in YOUR marriage, and with YOUR husband, not THE problem.
Secondly, there is this “thing” with men who enjoy triangulating women: the one that gets him thinks she’s “won” or is somehow more “special” than the one who lost. IS SHE?
That’s what I believed too after OW number one…that I knew about…he got off scot free and he knew it.
There are too many things here in what you’re NOT saying, as much as what you are. Your husband LIED to you. Given the OW’s obsession with trying to reach him, tells me he told her some serious whoppers and more than likely demonized you in the process. He probably told her that she was his soul mate, what a bitch you are and that he loved her and wanted to be with HER. She is a human being too, and with a man like this, BOTH women are at deficits to put up with this kind of shit. I know.
Frankly, there is no “pride” in being with a man who screwed another woman. Worse yet if there was no REMORSE on his part, towards me and more alarmingly TOWARDS HER. Whether wife or OW, with a man like this, NEITHER is the winner. ANY insensitivity on his part, towards me OR her would indicate a serious lack of remorse, guilt or empathy. If he has no empathy for what he did to HER, he likely doesn’t have enough for YOU either. Because he is still in your bed, is nothing of significance. You could be nothing more than an IMAGE protector.
After the first OW, I could never trust my husband again. I didn’t want to admit this, because it was easier to be pissed off at the OW, demonize and blame her than to realize I was married and shared a life and children with a certifiable asshole. It was HELL living with him after the first OW. Oh, and I went another five years before another OW popped up, then three more after that because I was too afraid to face the truth, about myself and what I was putting up with and the MISERY in my marriage. Now, it’s one of my rules in life. Infidelity is a deal breaker. I don’t care how “remorseful” he is. If he could break trust with me and not come to me and BE A MAN and talk to me about what was wrong and instead CHEAT? Naw. I won’t do that again.
Although I take no pride in having been the wife of a monster, I also take no pride in having been the OW of one either, however both experiences have allowed me to have compassion for both situations and to understand how BOTH feel and guess what? HE IS ACCOUNTABLE FOR OUR MARRIAGE, NOT SHE.
“Loving his wife was reason enough to throw her under the bus and that’s all she really needs to know. The rest is in her own head.” What an OUTRAGEOUS statement. Loving his wife (you) would have meant he kept his penis in his pants in the first place and had balls enough to come to you with the problem before he took up with someone else. This statement is FILLED with entitlement and RAGE. She did NOTHING to you, HE DID. Have you held HIM accountable with all of this rage? Asked him what he did to her? It is not only concerning when he has no empathy for someone he traumatized, but it’s also concerning that you don’t seem to EITHER.
After I found out about OW 2, I had the ovaries to call and speak with her. She was the NICEST woman, VERY kind in her heart. My husband had told her SO MANY LIES that it became CRYSTAL clear what he was and I STILL STAYED, but I stopped blaming HER and examined HIM instead, but I left ME out of the equation as to why I would buy his lies too.
The OW in your situation is probably TRAUMATIZED by what your husband did to her. Don’t be so quick to think that he’s not contacting her either behind your back. This is what my last assclown that I was having an affair with did, to his wife. After he told her about us, he was “back in the marriage” for eight months before his ass was begging ME back. Then another five years of HELL. If you so easily take him back, SHE would too. I have a feeling your husband may not be out of contact with this OW, despite his protests otherwise. My ex’s wife never suspected a THING for five years and he had me scheduled quite well, seeing me during his lunch hour, DAILY and on weekends when he’d come into town, sometimes after church board meetings too. I found myself REACTING the same way you claim this OW is…
Because he said he loved me, while going home to his wife, and then lying to her ass for another five years. I BELIEVED it, just like I BELIEVED my husband’s BULLSHIT too.
Perhaps what would be helpful for you, Libby, is to request therapy with your husband and/or for yourself. You too, have endured trauma at the hands of YOUR husband and your RAGE is clear, very clear to me. Your rage is drama provoking as well, and your perspective of her trying to reach him, fuel the intensity of your “win” and serve as a distraction to the trauma he caused her, as well as yourself.
Libby, hat was an amazing insight and read by K. Libby, I think both you and his other woman are clearly in so much pain, he is getting away with murder here. K is right, he is the one accoutable to both of you and both hers and yours behaviour seems out of control, which happens when you are left to take on somwbody elses shit.Where is he in all of this?
@K re; your response to Libby
“She was a SYMPTOM of a deeper problem in YOUR marriage, and with YOUR husband, not THE problem” and “First of all, what screamed at me from your post was the VENOM that appears in your words”
Disagree,1) now she IS actually her problem because she is bothering her. K, look, you sound a bit venomous too there, with the super long post about her cheating husband and your capitals “OUTRAGEOUS STATEMENT” for example. Your post seems almost more about your hurt as the other woman than about her right to be mad at the other woman… It is not really fair to sling judgements at her, when she is reeling from a cheating husband and a crazy, stalking OW; expecting her to not feel venom for the OW is unfair, now if you state that she should also feel equal venom towards her husband, I would agree, but really are either of us able to dictate how some cuckolded wife feels? Who has not been hurt and horribly in denial when this happened to them?
I think you need to have some compassion for Libby; you have been on both sides of the fence, cheated on wife and OW. She has not. I have only been on the cheated on girlfriend side, but I can tell that, that alone, made me totally immune to ever being interested in a MM; I would honestly feel like a jerk doing that, after being in that experience. But for whatever complicated reason, probably based on needs and lack of self-esteem etc you made that choice; no one is judging you, as you yourself probably see it was a bad choice. But your anger at Libby for her “venom” is not really compassionate. I think she is working through her pain and no one, especially no one who was an OW, should be blaming her for her (misplaced) sense of anger at only the OW and not her husband…this is probably a process for her.
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dancing,
Thank you for you comment. I disagree with you. I think I understand where you’re coming from because you were cheated on and have not been in an OW role. I see your anger too.
I think it’s important to examine HIS part in all of this. She has a right to be angry, but that anger is MISPLACED. HE is the one to hold accountable. This is why these men never are, because they have wives and/or girlfriends that are caught up in the spin of HIM and his lies and don’t want to address the issue of WHY their husbands got involved in the first place. The OW is NOT the problem, the partner who cheated and the MARRIAGE IS the problem.
When responsibility and accountability is removed from him,we have venmous women attacking each other out of their anger, rather than looking at their situations and HIM and trying to understand why this happened or needing to get OUT.
I was greatly shamed by what my husband did. I didn’t “win” anything. What I got what a cheating man.
It’s better to ask ourselves why we would be in relationship with someone like this,rather than blame other women for his actions and lack of accountability.
She isn’t the problem, Dancing.
He is
Since no one has bothered to figure out why the OW is being so insistent, perhaps it might be good to find out. Another poster here said something about letting her husband deal with it by talking to her or whatever. I personally think, having been the wife of a cheater, that talking to the OW myself allowed me to see what was really going on with them, with him and why she was a hot mes afterward. Women don’t want to do this because the truth hurts.
Either way, HE created the problem. You don’t know what lies he told her. But I’m sure they were quite the whoppers. Just like he told his wife too.
Dancing, I respect your opinion, but I disagree with what you have expressed were my feelings and motives behind my post.
K- respectfully, I disagree with you as well. I get where you are coming from, I really do, but I honestly don’t feel angry about being cheated on 15+ years ago; I feel angry when I see women, who have been involved with men who are involved, make statements like this
“She did NOTHING to you, HE DID.”
No, she did do something to her. She slept with the woman’s husband, and now has compounded the problem by being a raging stalker for months. She is not the victim. I understand that you feel, that you were, both as a cheated on wife and a OW, but I don’t see it that way. I honestly think, if I had been an OW, that I would not state that OW don’t do anything to wives; I think that is a super-stretch.
My point was, is that I think you are being unfair. I don’t think she was so outrageous, given the situation. I would be super-pissed to be stalked by anyone, much less someone who I had not even slept with myself lol;)
Dancing,
We will have to agree to disagree lol! 🙂
She did nothing to her. Her husband did. He is responsible for his behavior and needs to be held accountable. This doesn’t mean that the OW doesn’t have issues of her own to deal with, but ultimately, no one held a gun to his head and made him cheat on her. He made the CHOICE, knowing HE was committed to HER (not the OW), and did it ANYWAY.
While I can see both sides to this, I think it is so so so so important to stop demonizing BOTH women, but in particular, yes the OW because in the end, she winds up being demonized by HIM AND HIS WIFE, which is exactly what he wants to avoid accountability. The marriage needs emotional surgery or she needs to get OUT, because no matter what happens, if he cheats, HE cheats, something is WRONG in the marriage and/or with him. These men know exactly what they’re doing.
Both the OW and Wife are hurt in such situations and HE is responsible for that pain, not either of them.
Dancing, as far as the wife goes…and I’ll just say as for me anyway, having been married to a cheat and liar for 20 years, there was no pride in it. I was once very altruistic, screaming to all who would listen about what a martyr I was, but not coming out and saying I was a martyr lol! I mean…when we are in marriages with assclowns, we are already suffering a great deal of humiliation and being the long suffering victim serves a purpose too. It allows us to continue in denial, warm and toasty under the pseudo security of nobility, altruism, ever the faithful one, well all of that is just a load of CRAP. What it is in reality is that I signed a piece of legal paper that sealed my “faithful altruism and nobility” in legalities and to bring children into the world and into a marriage that was UNHEALTHY, DISHONEST, AND DRAMA PROVOKING.
There is NO WAY to claim anything positive when married to such a man. Whether we’re married to ass clowns, dating ass clowns or Ow’s to ass clowns, parents to ass clowns or children of ass clown, it requires a level of living dishonestly in the relationship within ourselves to maintain it…
Both my relationships, my marriage and the one to my last ass clown were dishonest, filled with deception. I think it’s fair to say that healthy people do not want nor get involved, or marry, ass clowns.
Ohhhhhh….the hindsight…if I only knew then what i know now…I wouldn’t have looked at EITHER of them… 🙂
Wonderful comment Dancingqueen I agree with you 100%! IF OW knows that the guy is MARRIED and still goes for “relationship” – it is very wrong and she has only herself to blame…unless the guy pretends to be single/divorced and poor OW just mislead:(
Little Star, SM,
The exMM didn’t pretend to be single or divorced and therefore, as you say, I only have myself to blame. I was a willing participant in my own downfall. I should have been a healthy person who was aware of the red flags, had fully formed boundaries, a better moral compass and a firm understanding of how these men operate. I wasn’t and I didn’t and that’s why I’m here and I’m learning. I willingly accept responsibility for my own actions, but I refuse to accept responsibility for his. The pain I experienced was not all self-inflicted. The hope for me and others in a similar situation does not lie in self-blame. It’s established when we acquire higher self-esteem, firm boundaries and the ability to differentiate between love and abuse. Like others here, I’m working on it.
Lilly I know your story and I’m with you all the way. I absolutely dont think the ow should take on the mm’s responsibility and I didnt see anyone else suggest it either. I divorced my own husband after the first infidelity, I also never blamed the ow because I was aware that she didnt know he was married when they connected. However she did keep mailing her love letters to my house after I called her and told her to stop. And when the ex broke up with her, she sent me a letter wanting to tell me everything that happened. I didnt even care to know because by that time I had moved on and was dating this fun, hot single guy (I was eu that time). That was 14 yrs ago, I dont harbor bad feelings for the ex nor the ow. My only beef on this post and another is the degrading of the wife and the perceived ‘victimhood’ of the ow.
Lilly, I am sorry that you went through this painful experience with MM.
My own cousin got involved with MM and she spent almost 4 years with him, he promised her to leave his wife and a child…He even begged her to have his kid, so when she eventually got pregnant he got scared and LEFT HER! She did not have other option but abort a baby:( When he learnt about abortion he was happy to come back and carry on like NOTHING HAPPENED, but my cousin told him to f@$% off.. These men are scary, try to avoid them in the future, Lilly! All the best, stay strong xxx
SM and Little Star, thank you for your support.I truly appreciate it, xxx
I had a friend with a married man for 20 plus years. The wife never caught on until the end. I never understood if she knew or not but never she never confronted him until after 20 years. Of course for him it was all self preservation and he disappeared for awhile. Came begging back when the smoke cleared but thankfully my friend finally woke up and was able to leave him. He had alot of money and that enabled him to manipulate both of them. He should watch Deadly Affairs. He is lucky one of them didn’t kill him lol
Agree with Little Star and Dancing Queen!
We need to treat our sisters better, and that starts by staying away from their men!
DQ I agree with you. First of all, this isnt a single guy someone went on a date with and then later on through discovery learned that he was emotionally unavailable. The OW/M knows from that start that the person is married, therefore unavailable every which way. I cannot feel sorry for someone who knowingly dates a married person I do not care one iota what kind of lies they were fed. The fact that they live with their spouse should be reason enough not to get involved. OW’s are not victims of the mm’s lies, they put themselves in that situation. Its seems that recently there’s quite a few posters on here degrading the wife or calling an ow a victim of the man. If you went willingly into a mm’s arms, then you are no victim. He’s still an azzclown but the ow shares the role with him.
SM,
I disagree. Many EUM’s are predators. Many wives have issues already when married to a predator. In having dealt with survivors of personality disordered men (narcissists,etc), the stories of luring, lies and deceptions are literally the same. The wife isn’t altruistic in this situation. She has issues too for having chosen such a man.
Although I will say that there are OW’s AND wives that are disordered too, which adds heaping coals to a very dramatic situation.
EUM’s and ass clowns LOVE triangulation. It’s their favorite game. I learned from having been in both situations and in some small way, I am grateful for the affair relationship, because he was the worst of my abusers, so bad that it led me to my awakening….
K I’m not saying the wife doesnt need therapy or isnt unhealthy herself. What I’m saying is that the ow is not a victim of the mm. The top line data is that the guy is married, right there is one’s sign not to proceed. You want to believe his lies so that you feel good about continuing the relationship with someone else’s husband. You are a willing participant in him cheating on his wife. I know some of these men will cheat with whoever and will continue cheating after you but take responsiblity for your part. Victims are people who are helpless in what happens to them, ie children, criminal acts. Not grown women who willingly have sex with a married man.
I agree with the predator statement. Married men have that sob story of how they don’t love their wives, live as roommates, haven’t had sex in years. Then they cry about how they will lose their kids. They are quite adept at sucking a woman into their web of deception. Then they throw in how they are leaving soon. Some even lie at the outset by saying they are separated and by that time the woman is already hooked. Yes the woman should leave as soon as the lies are revealed but it isn’t always that simple. The woman who is married to them should leave them as soon as she leaves but usually doesn’t either. They say they love both of them but usually these guys are narcissists with no empathy who don’t love either of them in a healthy way. They love themselves!
SM, I made the terrible mistake of falling in love with and getting pregnant by a MM and I’m paying the price. Unlike the MM, however, I have feelings of remorse, guilt and shame. I may have been foolish and very selfish, but I am not an AC.
Lilly,
Wow. I’m so sorry…is he paying the price by chance? I hope so. OW’s should not be held up to the public square for flogging, while he skates. I am so sorry for your situation.
I hope you can heal…
I think the bottom line is that a woman with a healthy self esteem would not contemplate being with an attached man nor would she tolerate being cheated on. The women in question here are human, make mistakes and might want to save their relationship with this man for reasons we don`t know from Libbys post. He was the one having his cake and eating it so he should clear the mess he created with both of them.
Little Star and SM I totally concur; I think also, we need to look at a larger picture; how, as women, we need to support other women *by making them see their accountability*. When Lilly states that she has remorse, I respect that and I don’t think that she is an AC. I love her to death ( and K you as well I wish well for) but if she said that she had done nothing wrong, I would not let that stand unchallenged, and I would tell her that I disagreed.
Additionally, women who sleep with other women’s men create problems in society. If less women slept with married men, than it would be less common for cheating men to insult us single women with their dodgy hit-ons that I for one, don’t appreciate lol!
Furthermore personal story: these relationships affect the other relationships in these cheaters/mistresses lives. I actually had a relative (biological sister, who I met at 28, and stopped talking to a few years ago because of exactly this type of thing…) who had this “problem” with needing to validate herself by seeking out other women’s men. Of course she ended up in this torrid affair with this guy who had an autistic child and a-you got it-“bitch” wife. My sister was in therapy for it, trying to “get the strength to leave”; but all she ever talked about was how she, and he, were victims of this wife. It was super self-involved. She painted herself as someone who had low self-esteem so she could not help herself (“my therapist said that I am addicted to him”) and he was “trapped” in a bad marriage by a woman who supposedly was going to not let him see his son if they split and who, supposedly, had agreed to an open-marriage before they got married ( yeah, she believed that whopper which made heck-all sense…) Finally he dumped her to return to his “bitch” wife, but in the meantime, our relationship had suffered a fatal blow; when I told her that I could not hear it anymore, that I was sick of her demonizing this poor woman and feeling sorry for herself, and that it was a bigger pattern in her life (always being jealous of others and denigrating what they had and making excuses for herself) I was now the evil one; aka “the betraying sister”.
But you know what? I am so glad that that happened. I had been annoyed with her for years, sick of our own history of her denigrating my life-my going back to school and working hard-by her cutting my choices down and making excuses for her not doing the same…it was high time to get rid of that toxic relationship. 6 years on, I still am happy that she is gone. But yeah, that is where my lack of tolerance comes from. Between her and some choice step-mothers who always took advantage of others and made excuses for themselves, I just don’t have the pity for excuse makers. No one likes to be alone. Heck there is a cute married man on my street right now who has made it very clear that he would like a tumble or two with me, and it does suck sometimes, after a hard day, to be alone…but the option is to support myself, and other women, to do the right thing…or to make excuses for myself, and then others, to do the wrong…and then make the world a worse place.
I can’t remember who said it, but my cat companion is my boyfriend now:)So stay away from him ladies:)!
DQ, I love you too 🙂
Dancingqueen, I just LOVE reading your comments:) I wish I had a “boyfriend” like yours, a cute fluffy cat who can love me unconditionally:) God bless you and him xx
Aww Lilly and Little Star you both slay me, you guys are so adorable! I highly recommend an animal, I have two and one was adopted right after I broke up with the AC who brought me here and he is my baby! You both need to get some big fluffy cats! (((hugs))))
SM,
Spot on!!!!!!!
K is totally right here… I guarantee the poor lady cannot let go because she was fed a double does of lies and “future faking” crap, and now that its all come down and he got his ego stroked and ran back to the “safety” of his marriage, she is trapped in a world of fantasy, denial, and hurt that he made for her and she can’t get a grip and find her way out. She had low self esteem to let him in the first place, and now she cant find a way out :(. I would honestly not be surprised if he were still contacting her on the side every now and then… saying how he made a mistake going back, etc etc… just enough to keep her in crazy land. I feel so bad for this woman – I know I was only a hair or two away from being and acting the same way if I wouldn’t have gotten my version of closure on my own and relied on my dignity instead of my self esteem. Dignity will keep you away from someone who doesn’t want you and made it fairly clear regardless of your esteem – but if he’s still dangling her out there I can totally see her never being able to let go. Its so sad.
Just so you know – guys who cheat will cheat again, unless they figured out what is going on inside of them that makes the person they are with not seem like enough. I have stooped to some lowly levels in my life too (never physically cheating, but still), but I can tell you one thing I could never take in a relationship is someone who goes outside of it for any reason. Its disprespectful at the very least, and in my experience is a hallmark of a much deeper character flaw. Its usually guys who like the idea of “collecting” women, they get all wound up in it and once the deed is done the excitement fades and they think about what it will cost them and run back – and women let them. And they do it again, and again, and again. The cycle won’t break just by forgiving and forgetting – and I for one can and have put up with just about everything, but that is just too demeaning to let go.
Just 2 cents from a guys perspective lol.
Hey Bob!
Good to see you! And thanks for your perspective from a guy’s point of view.
You made mention of his talking to the OW on the side. I get that feeling too…these men are capable of serious provocation with regards to exploiting the emotions of others and LOVING their reactions. Make no mistake, this woman’s husband is LOVING all of this. It’s part of the drama aspect I was picking up on in the post too.
I think I need to share why I see that he might still be in contact with her. Granted, this is from experience, but I see the REACTIONS in this triangulation so it matches the experiences I’ve had and have seen with other survivor situations: My ex assclown that I was involved with and was the OW, was so sadistic, he would provoke me, gaslight me..it took me a LONG, LONG time to figure this out..but he LOVED to be screamed at. He loved to be in the middle of things, triangulations were his personal favorite…but anyway, he would chat with me via email IN HIS WIFE’S PRESENCE after she found out about us. He would also take his cell and go outside and CALL me and talk to me while she was believing he was back to being “faithful”. He did this on purpose, because he WANTED me to call and email him obsessively for answers. Absolutely, when I realized what the hell he was doing, I was ashamed of my behavior! The reason he did this,was to keep her in the “win” cycle. It was a power move, meant to keep her tied into the relationship, focused on ME, rather than HIS behavior.
Sneaky, eh? But it worked.
And we were both at deficits with him to put up with it.
One more thing he loved to do: call me and say nothing, but would do it when he and his wife were in a major argument and she was SCREAMING at him. At the top of her lungs. So what he was doing to her, he was also doing to me..fueling the “win” with both women. And neither of us knew it.
It’s always good to find out the WHOLE story with the cheater, including talking to the OW.
So he can’t get away with his lies.
great comment, Bob.
Bob:
Thank you for the guys perspective. It is very welcome. As someone who was cheated on (he says it was never physically only emotional and dumped me for her eventually), I have found I abhor cheating. It is demeaning on so many levels It’s NOT an excause for anything including abuse. I’ve seen so many women amke that excuse.
There is no excuse for abuse. Including toward an OW..no one “asks’ for it.
If you now feel secure with your husband, why not allow him to meet with her? It’s clear she is tormented by the brutal way in which she was dropped. I know marriage counselors advise cutting contact, but doesn’t he have an obligation to gently help her put the affair to rest, since he was also responsible for creating any expectations she may have had? You “won” and can afford to demonstrate empathy and kindness toward this wretched creature.
Swiss
Absolutely not. This is not a good idea. It will simply encourage her.
And while the OP may be mad at the OW that her prerogative. The OW is not her problem, the husband is. I have no advice there except that he continue to ignore the OW or get a restraining order. That may be the best way to help her anyway.
K’s insites are priceless. It really would seem as though the husband swings between demonizing his wife to the OW and the OW to the wife. Very convenient. Keeps him at the center, provides a handy rationale for his behavior. These men love to create negative emotions: power. My heart goes out to both women.
SM,
He triangulates. This is a game that man EUM’s and Assclown’s LOOOOOVE. It’s an ego boost. Women fall for it. Every time. Hook, line and sinker. When I caught onto this after first OW in my marriage, I did what Libby is doing. I was just THAT *special*. NOT! I was just that stoooopid! LOL! The feeling and idea that I *won* him back, is a very heady one. It’s an ego boost for any WOMAN too..if in fact she is suffering from her own deficits because a healthy married woman would be angry, but would not respond in that way. She would KNOW it’s HIS ASS that needs to be held accountable. NOT the OW.
Secondly, when OW2 dropped into my marriage, I was more contemplative. I decided to talk to OW2. She was a hot mess after what my ex did to her. I felt so badly for her. She too, was at a deficit and a human being like me. My husband lied and lied and lied to her and he told some serious whoppers to me. I wanted to give her CLOSURE because I could see her pain. Women usually won’t contact other women to find out what HE said and what HE did, when they should. They don’t do it because then they might hear the truth about him. They might hear that he thought she was a bitch. They might hear the details of what he said/did to the OW. And really? When they hear the details? It becomes crystal clear what he is…and then she’s forced to make decisions that she is responsible for within herself. Do I stay with an assclown, KNOWING what he is? Or do I go? These questions are those that women like Libby are unprepared to answer. It’s easier to demonize and blame, than it is to face a very difficult and challenging truth. And as long as that is so, men will be successful at triangulating the “sistahood” and separating us as a society and from our female counterparts.
In the support I give to survivors who have suffered from affair relationships with Narcissists, psychopaths and sociopaths, is that we are ALL the OW to them. They are not faithful and in all the stories I’ve heard, God knows how many now for two years, not ONE, not ONE of these men was faithful. Many of them begin cheating from the beginning of the relationshit and she doesn’t know it.
We are OBJECTS to these men, and the wives have a harder burden to bear in some way because she shares children and a life with him. The OW’s are LUCKY in that they aren’t “stuck” with them legally or with children. But these men regularly engage in triangulating women because it takes accountability and reseponsibility off of him and then the women cat fight over him. blaming one another for HIS indiscretion and he sits back and watches the fireworks. If he does go back to the main object, he does it because of the fear of losing his image that she amply provides, scares him more than anything else. It’s not love that he goes back. It’s not love that he did it in the first place. And it’s not love when we placate to him by foregoing holding him accountable for his behavior.
Even after these relationshits are over, many women are still blaming each other. When I see it, I know what it is. He’s still getting away with it, even though he’s long gone or with someone else, to which he will begin the entire process over again. When she’s still blaming the OW or vice versa, there is indication that she has not dealt with the truth about him or about herself yet.
Hey Libby,
It is horrible to try to repair a relationship after a betrayal; are you sure that you want to, ultimately? I agree that “loving his wife” did not seem enough earlier.
That said, I would probably not choose to stay with someone who did that, but if I did, I would respond to her email, and cc your husband and a lawyer and tell her in no uncertains terms that if she contacts you again, you will file a restraining order because she is sounding obssessive and you feel threated. Or better yet, get a lawyer to do it and have him cc your husband and you, separately on the email. You never know, she could be in contact with your husband and getting another whole side of it. Good luck.
Libby,
This is harassment. You need a restraining order.
Have you blocked her from your e-mail and phone?
How can you trust this guy again?
I could easily have been the OW woman Libby is talking about.I was “thrown under bus” when the MM got scared and thought he would be caught out. He kept the door open with his “let’s see what happens in the future”, but I felt desperate, obsessed, miserable and grief stricken and I desperately wanted validation. I stalked his blog and FB, but instead of bombarding him with emails I turned my grief inwards and became depressed.
I was very lucky because I found BR and started to understand what I’d just been through, all the deception, empty promises, lies. I have much sympathy for you Libby, but there will be reasons why this woman is acting so desperately and your husband should be accountable for the hurt and pain he has caused both of you. Are her actions provocation or desperation? It sounds like desperation to me and your husband is responsible. That doesn’t excuse her own responsibility she just isn’t at that place to see that yet or isn’t strong enough to deal with her own choices.
Who knows what lies he has spun her, but he most certainly has.I don’t know whether or not your husband is still in contact with her, but these men do not change easily. The exMM has,once again, turned on the charm (obviously feeling that the coast is clear)and has tried to get me to meet up with him again several times. It is posts like these that help keep me on the straight and narrow. I’m still trying to recover and sometimes the feelings of desperation come creeping back, but who wants a man who can do this to women with no feelings of responsibility, guilt or remorse. One day very soon I will be slamming the door shut for good.
(((( Lilly ))))
I think you said it much more eloquently than I.
I would like to encourage you and support you in your efforts NOT to go back. This is ulimately VERY wise of you….my ex MM did this many, many, MANY times behind his wife’s back. Each time he thought he had her “settled back in” he would be at my door…Please stay strong. I understand how hard it is, but you are doing the absolute RIGHT thing! Even when my ex MM was free and divorced, he just went for other victims…he is married to someone else now.
It isn’t worth it. I’m so sorry you share a child. I’m really lucky that did not happen in my situation, although there were a couple of scares. I can’t imagine what that must be like.
I understand your feelings of desperation. That’s what these men LOVE to create. It’s an ego boost for them to have us ‘pining” for them, and they like it when the wife finds out. It’s a common triangulation game and one of their favorites. The feeling of desperation comes from inside of us though..something we need to heal.
Oh Lilly, I’m truly sorry. I hope you find peace and happiness in your healing process. Stay strong!
K,I’m feeling a little fragile at the moment, it’s one of those times when all the feelings seem to surface. Painfully, I lost my baby boy last January at six months pregnant, but I’m working my way through the grief and slowly accepting the loss. The exMM was unsupportive, cold and very cruel to say the least, but with the help of Natalie and BR I’ve processed a lot of this pain and it doesn’t hurt me as much anymore. I’ve spent a lot of time literally aching for him to validate me and my child though, but I’ve started to understand the connection between this need and my childhood abandonment issues. This man triggered some deep wounds within me and I agree that this is where my feeling of desperation comes from. But it’s not an easy process and sometimes I feel strong and other times I’m a weeping mess on the floor. The fact that I’m working with him (via email) doesn’t help. He is piling on the charm and is being strangely very supportive. He has provided me with many opportunities that will advance my career. This has thrown me into a spin, but I’m staying strong and have turned down all his attempts to meet up with me. He tried again today and I just cried and cried. I don’t think it was a bad thing. I cried because I know it’s not real. He is a MM. His wife is real. It’s 3.55 am at the moment, I can’t sleep so here I am reading and re-reading the posts. Thank you so much for the encouragement K; I’m not going back. Hugs to you too, xxx.
Lilly,
Remember that it is always light at some point; you need to just remember that the sun circles 24 hours a day and eventually light comes up. That awful MM was a very dark force in your life, but good things are going to come in the future…he is just a fading memory and the more you avoid him the stronger you will be.
Just write yourself a promise to block him as soon as you are able to move on professionally. He needs to be blocked. You will feel SO much better when he is out of your life; I promise you, you don’t think you will, but someday, soon, you will be saying that exact same thing on this blog…so give me credit for having told you that when you do lol! Big Hugs and go to bed!
libbypachouli-
two words: restraining order. …that your husband, not you, takes out on her.
just today, i discussed the issue of ‘closure’ with a friend. i realised that i’ve been using the ‘not getting closure’ excuse in order not to truly move on. i’ve been ruminating on why the EUM did the ‘bait and switch’. i even asked him twice and didn’t get a clear answer.
i fell off the NC wagon earlier this week, but i’m back on, safety belt and all. i finished the unsent letter exercise and will be ready to burn it tomorrow. i realise that i will never get the answers i’ve been so desperately looking for. it doesn’t matter either way. we are not together now and neither will we ever be again. i want to move on, and i need to move on for my own sanity and concentrate on putting my life back together, independent from anybody else. i’ve been working through my grief and am getting real close to letting go. thank you for this article tonight. NML, you have been such an inspiration all along the way.
Natashya I have followed your story, pretty much without comment but I have thought about you. I also fell off the Nc wagon and also thought we could be friends. Where i went wrong, and possibly where you might be going wrong, is that I kept thinking, actually whining, “I just don’t understand……” I truly didn’t understand why he did what he did and for some reason it was really important to me that it all made sense. Sometimes we have to accept that we will never understand, that it will never make sense, that people move in extrenely mysterious ways. Once I accepted that, in my case, he was a fucked up loser with chronic NPD, I have had to come to terms with the fact that I will never be able to rationalize it.I am still hurting but I have my closure, even though it is a kind of “non closure” it is simply that he is disordered and incapable of love. Luckily this is not an infectious disease and I will live and love again. So will you.
Natashya
I think the reason you didn’t get an answer from him as to why he did the “bait and switch” is that he doesn’t quite know himself or at least he cannot articulate it without admitting and owning shameful things about himself and clearly he isn’t ready – may never be ready – to do it.
I feel this because many years ago I did something similar. I became obsessed with a guy and almost stalked him for nearly a year.. Then we got together. I was elated for a short while and then he really fell for me whereupon my interest just nosedived. It was because I was an EU woman myself and I didn’t want to make a commitment to him. I didn’t want to feel so responsible for him. He was a lot older than me and when the relationship was merely a fantasy that didn’t seem a problem. Once he was really there I suddenly realised I didn’t want to be tied down with someone 20 years older. It sounds insane, it was insane. I felt ashamed of myself at the time and even more so now. The shame actually meant that I avoided ending the relationship but let it limp on way past it’s sell by date. I didn’t want to be “cruel” but actually this made it worse for both of us. This may be how he feels.
He loved the fantasy, but he cannot step up to the reality, for whatever reason. The thing is you already know he can’t step up, so more information about the exact thought processes may make you feel worse. I’ve had this done to me too now, and it is hell, so I shall be a whole lot more careful with how I treat others as well as what I observe of their treatment of me.
@victorious…. ‘i just don’t understand’… yes, that’s exactly it. i have literally told him this when i asked! he pulled the bait and switch on me overnight and i woke up to a completely different person, which i didn’t quite realise at first as i was busy making up the excuses, as per the last post.
@mymble, i think you are onto something. thank you for explaining that. my ex EUM was desperate to be in a relationship again, after he and his wife split up 3 years ago. he hadn’t dated since and thought he was ready. he enjoyed the fantasy, he enjoyed the idea of a relationship. i even do think he really liked me but rather quickly realised he wasn’t ready at all and his heart was still tied to his ex.
don’t get me wrong, when i sometimes read about people stuck in unhealthy situations for years, i am glad my ride into EUM land only lasted for several months. he broke up with me after i really pushed the issue. i had thought several times that i had to let him go because his actions (or lack thereof) made me feel anxious, sad and jealous and i didn’t want to feel that way.
i do realise that he was totally EU and in no position to receive and give love. i know this isn’t about me. it’s about HIM.
i don’t know why this one has been so hard on me. (it only lasted 4 months!) much harder than dealing with the break down of my decade long marriage. perhaps because this is the first time i got my heart broken (i’m in my early 40s) and this definitely was an epiphany relationship. the EUM was also the first man i really wanted to be with.
however, it doesn’t really matter. i need to shift my focus. my anxiety about never being able to find someone else, my once healthy, but currently non existent self esteem and general lack of direction in life are about ME. this is what i need to focus on right now: ME.
thank you for all your support. i can’t stress enough how important BR has been for me through all of it.
Hang in there, Natashya, I think you’re doing a great job! I’ve benn looking for lsure for nearly two years and frankly, like Nat said, I was just trying to avoid the inevitable: accepting the fact that he dumped me and moved on.
The other day I saw on Facebook that he posted a new profile photo, showing him kissing his new girlfriend. We’re not FB friends anymore, not since we broke up, but I was able to see this post beacuse one of our mutual friends liked it. It hurt like hell to see this because he had never posted a photo like this when we were together. This means he publicall ‘announced’ he loves her. They actually both posted new profile photos, showing them together, all in love.
And then after a while I realized it was actually good that I saw those photos because it kind of forced me to see how things really are right now. I have to stop with the phantasy and accept things as they are: he moved on, he’s in a totally different world now … Which means it’s high time I moved on too.
It still hurts, but I definitely feel better!!! Enough of the torture, I’m worth sooooo much more!! Focusing on myself, not even trying to meet anyone new because I don’t need a man to make me happy!!! 🙂 So, to sum up: accepting the reality is what is bringing me closure:))
Sorry, I didn’t meand to be o long:)) A very good post, Nat, and right on time, as always;) xxx
Natashya, I also entered into a disastrous relationship immediately after my long-term relationship ended. Maybe because I was feeling down on myself, I went out with a text book AC for two years, and it took me another year to get over it. It hurt worse than the end of my long-term relationship, which was far more real and substantial than the AC relationship, which never remotely resembled a grown-up, loving relationship. The guy was a mean, selfish jerk and I put up with a lot. I recently read a book by Howard Halpern that explained everything, and gave me the most closure yet. There are certain, very specific people we attach to for really unhealthy reasons related to our childhood. He calls it “attachment hunger,” and the feeling of needing them is so intense, so completely overwhelming, that it just does us in. We feel that we are non-existent without them. When the relationship ends, we feel like we’ve become horribly invisible and irrelevant. It’s as if our lives, our very identities, depended on these people. But it’s not a love story. It’s just a very primal reaction to something we are trying to act out from our early childhood, when our needs were not met, and it left us prone to these attachment hunger attacks with certain people who remind us of that early childhood experience.
It’s fascinating stuff, and it really explains why we can have such a hard time getting over someone who should have been insignificant, considering how little they contributed to our lives. It helped me understand that I wasn’t hurting because I’d loved him – I was hurting because he pushed old buttons that I didn’t even know were there. My healthier relationship didn’t push those buttons.
That’s the only self-help book I’ve encountered that really explained my feelings of invisibility and despair… that feeling that I didn’t even exist unless this guy was in my life. To be with him was exhilarating, the idea of losing him was hell on earth. The roller coaster of emotions didn’t make any sense, considering who he was. But I desperately deluded myself into believing he cared. “He must love me because he’s going out with me,” I’d say to myself. Finally letting go and ending it was one of the worst feelings on earth. But again, not because I loved him. It was attachment hunger, abandonment issues, old scars and stuff that I have finally dealt with. So, the AC was a blessing for me, after all. I’m thankful for the lesson. When you get beyond the pain and do the work on yourself, you see that the ACs and EUMs of the world are serving as lessons for us all – and the lesson is to love ourselves first.
Anyway, just thought I’d share that. Take care.
MissBliss,
Thank you for sharing this. It explains my experience perfectly and I will be buying that book.
Miss Bliss,
Thank you for sharing. I’ll look up the author for the book.
Excellent post
Natashya: WOW. we could be living parallel lives. I’m 38. This sopke to me soooo much.
“i don’t know why this one has been so hard on me. (it only lasted 4 months!) much harder than dealing with the break down of my decade long marriage. perhaps because this is the first time i got my heart broken (i’m in my early 40s) and this definitely was an epiphany relationship. the EUM was also the first man i really wanted to be with.”
WOW, that is how it was for me too. He pulled the rug out from under my feet and basically blind sighted me. The part that kills me is not the break-up itself. It was the infidelity. He had been cheated on by his ex-wife (I still think there are major feeling there) so you’d think that he’d avoid doing something similar as he know the hurt. NOT! He went and cheated on me with his ex-GF. I found out prior to being dumped. (He was planning that apparently). It hurts like hell. The good news is that we are now on BR and better for it and better for them being out of their lives.
FYI, it’s his birthday today and I held strong and with myself respect intact and did not contact him in any shape or form. As I told one of his best friends on why I had “de-friended” him on FB. “He’s just not that special”. Hang in there. Hugs!
missbliss, confused123 and everybody else, thank you for the support. it has really been helpful to get me back on track.
i have many things to be grateful for. i only let the demise of the relationship go on for about 2 months. yes, it was incredibly painful to force the issue of him being EUM, but i did it anyways, with the result that i got dumped while traveling abroad together. yes, it ruined my summer, but the damage is still limited compared to some of the horrific stories i read here of women being in that situation for years.
i am lucky enough that even though he broke my heart and was horribly EU, he did not cheat on me, did not abuse me, did not blow hot and cold etc. he simply overestimated his capability to be in a healthy, committed relationship. he probably also overestimated his interest in me. and yes, that hurts, but that’s an ego thing. i’ll get over it.
after a short fling with an EUM a few years ago, i decided to get out of crazytown and stay single til i met somebody worthy of my love. i waited for over 2 years. i thought he was worthy. i was wrong.
the ‘drama’ that ensued the break up is the drama i created myself. i feel cheated out of my future with him. he does have many qualities i am looking for in a partner. there’s many things about him that i admire. yes, he would be good for me, if it wasn’t for him still being emotionally (and legally!) attached to his ex. and that has NOTHING to do with me and that is not something i could possibly ever change.
i have come to realise that there is NOTHING i could have done to change his mind. as was suggested here before, he got caught up in the dream and his desire to be with somebody again and then when he got involved with me, realised he wasn’t ready. that’s the best closure i will ever get. i am going to run with it, and in the mean time work on myself to get my self esteem and life back in order because i DO want to be in a relationship again and though i won’t be making the mistake of jumping in so quickly and so full on, i will go in with an open heart. however, i will also make sure that i do have a very solid foundation of self love and self esteem to not get so ridiculously brokenhearted if things don’t work out. and definitely not make my life revolve around somebody else. been there, done that several times. regardless of how painful this all has been, i do think i’ve learnt a thing or two.
i am excited about taking the BR self esteem course in january. i may still be a bit wobbly, but i feel as if i’m on the road to taking my power back and it feels good. this kind of ‘closure’ is really all i need.
“the EUM was also the first man i really wanted to be with.”
That’s why it’s harder this time. And you probably feel really cheated because you thought it was real…at first.
However, now you know you DO want a real relationship and you’re working on making you the person who can receive it…so it’s truly a good thing this happened. Hence, the epiphany part.
I’m in the exact same boat and am actually grateful to my AC now because it proved to myself I am worthy of having what I’ve always wanted but thought I was too damaged to ever get.
We ARE getting there. Hold on a bit longer, it will all bear glorious fruit.
Mymble, I think your story probably mirrors a lot of what happens with men too. They get excited about the fantasy, they want to “win” the woman, they want the high and the intensity – and then the reality of what a relationship really requires comes crashing down on them. I’ve done the same too, and it isn’t nice, and I do feel ashamed. Doesn’t mean I’m a terrible person – doesn’t mean these men are terrible people.
“He loved the fantasy, but he cannot step up to the reality, for whatever reason.” Very true. He probably doesn’t even know the reason himself. This is not a small point – in fact it’s enormously significant. Because it’s another reminder, once again, that the “whatever reason” is NOT about us. We’ve GOT to stop wringing our hands over what we did, or failed to do, or all the myriad ways we weren’t “good enough.” Let’s stop agonizing over this for once and for all!!!!!!!
SBW
that’s why I have a slight problem with Labelling them Narcissist psychopath etc. It may be that he has or will have some shame for his actions. I’ve got previous convictions for relationship bad behaviour myself, so I’d rather focus on my own future happiness that his stuff.
Hang in there Nataysha it gets better. For me the anger part was the one that lasted the longest, but one day you suddenly realize that you have moved past it into the “forgiveness or just who gives a crap” phase…:) You can do it!!!!:)
thank you, dancingqueen. my anger phase only lasted a few days. i don’t think he’s an AC. he did behave in some AC’ish ways when he ended it, but he’s mainly just VERY EU.
right now, i am hovering between sadness and acceptance. i am working on getting the scale to tip to acceptance and oh… one day perhaps relish in the joy of indifference. knowing i will get there is actually all the closure i’ll need.
I’m sorry Natashya 🙁 … Please try harder than you ever have not to contact him again though – it doesn’t do anything but hurt you no matter what he says… no reply or a bad one will hurt just as much as a good, warm one because although you will get a slight good feeling, it will fade quickly and you will be even more hurt and confused and will look for for, but you won’t get any because he isn’t with you anymore :(. I’m sorry but its true. You will wind yourself up into a frenzy trying to get him in your life in some manner and he will never because he knows hes “got you” anyway. Let him go, if he wanted you he would be there. You can do so much better you just have to find a way to let go. I shouldn’t say this, but if you have to let the connection go slowly do it – keep looking at pictures or whatever now and then – but never call, text, or email him ever again. At least then he won’t know how bad you are still hurting and still want him. Maybe try to obsess and look at his crap a little less every day or week until you don’t need to anymore – or until you see something that truly crushes you and you know you will never be with him again.
Im doing the same thing, not contacting her mind you but also not giving up my quest to find out what the hell happened, so this article was timely for me too. Lately Ive even stepped up my efforts to find out if she is really seeing someone else since she denied it even though her friend told me she was… but you know what? What is that going to do in reality? I already know were over, are we going to be more over??? Or will it give me the “closure” I am thinking it will give me and I will be able to finally close the door and not just on the surface?? The truth is it wont – I would just find something else to obsess on. I’d find the guy or guys finally then I would compare myself to them incessantly and ask “why them and not me?” Or I would find some other trivial detail and hang on to that… Its really me not wanting to let go but trying to tell myself if I just had this one more little but of info I could totally let go. I feel like a stalker and its embarrassing because I know I am not. She even told me she felt I was being “a little stalker like and I cringe” when I saw her pic on facebook that day, and it just popped up in my news feed. But I know I was actively looking from time to time too so even though I wasn’t technically stalking that day I know I am guilty as charged. So I also feel bad I have been now labeled by her as a stalker and the thought of me makes her cringe – how great is that for someone who wanted to marry me and wanted me to move in with her not so long ago??? Feels pretty bad… And also for her to take it a step further and ask me if I was following her around now… now she can label me with whatever she wants to tell herself she made a good choice getting rid of me before I turned pshycho lol sigh… I doubt she thinks that honestly, but she very well could and its in her right – all because I didn’t leave it alone when she said goodbye – regardless of how wishy washy she said it.
Don’t look for closure anymore, its not really closure we are looking for its how to stay attached for whatever reason. Let them go, they said goodbye. If they wanted to be with us they would be. All that other stuff we get from snooping around or the occasional communitcation are just crumbs to keep us in the past. I remember how much we talked when we were together by all mediums of communication – its not feaseable or believable that she hasn’t found someone else to have all those conversations and communication with now, and its obviously not me. The crumbs you get are just there because they are either guilty or want to keep you dangling. All that real communication you are looking for so bad (call it closure if you want) is going to their new person.
PLease hang in there Natashya, you can do this!!! If I can anyone can!
hi bob, yes, you are right. i am back on track, though. i can feel it, as i’m feeling better already.
i contacted him because i wanted to be validated, feeling so insecure about everything in my life. of course, he didn’t and it just made it worse.
i am done with it now. i had already removed all emails and photos on my computer. no snooping online, either. it is torture.
same goes for you, stop checking up, trying to find things out. whatever you find out is not helping your recovery. it just means you continue to be tied to them in the most unhealthy ways. and most of all, IT DOES NOT MATTER if they’re dating and who they’re dating. their behaviour is no reflection on us.
i have just been trying to find a magic bullet to ‘let go’, but today i realised that ‘letting go’ doesn’t necessarily work like that (at least for me). it’s still a process. going back on NC was the first step, snapping the hair tie on my wrist when i feel sad about losing him is another. as cliche as it is, time is the great healer, and one day i won’t even remember the last time i’ve thought about him. i seriously can’t wait.
Bob,
Great point. I too, use to FB check, friends,family and it’s how I found out about the new target that he was cheating with too. Eventually, I took myself OFF of social media for four months. I did nothing but answer email. I knew if I was on fb,it would be too easy to check.Ironically,that saved me. I forced myself to have no access which allowed me to get into new “habits” that did not involve finding out about his life anymore. It also helped me to focus on me. When I did get on FB again, I totally avoided anything to do with him, family, friends. I blocked them all and it has worked. Now, thinking about contacting him is just an immediate stop sign in my head.
Natasha, I know that NC at first is REALLY hard. It’s got an addictive feel to it. I know it helped me a lot to look at it as the addiction that it was and that if I was really serious about getting out of that trauma bond, I had to go to drastic measures to make it happen, get into therapy and feel the pain of loss. There does come a time, though, when you have NC that when you think about doing it, your mind will automatically shut off that switch because you’ll understand that the outcome will be nothing but painful. I also kept in mind that if I contacted him, he would think I was still “suffering” over him (I was but he didn’t need to know that), and would get off on it. He loved to see me hurt during the relationship and I had given him enough fodder for that!
Just remember that you are strong and to contact him means he thinks you’re a weakling! Who wants THAT? So hold onto your strength and don’t give him your power. 🙂
Damn right, you can do it. And yes, today I made a new pledge to stop snooping, because of what I said before and because we all know its just keeping us lost in a world that is gone. I am so glad I removed all her friends and that she blocked me, because I most likely wouldve found out much more than I have the last few days and I guarantee that I would not be as sane as I am now. Stop while you are ahead as the saying goes. She’s moved on, shes not wondering what I am doing, why in the hell am I wondering what she is doing???? Why are hearts so foolish sigh…
No contact at all, will be a month next Tuesday… I was alot less sad and depressed this week, still had some major bouts and some bad thoughts creep in, mostly about how in the world could she be so cold to me now after we shared so much and not care about me at all… but thats just how it is – she is her own person and for me to think I have some kind of lock on another persons free will isnt fair to her or me. You cant make someone do what you want them to do no matter how much you think youve done for them or they “owe” you… noone owes you anything in life, and if they did would you really feel good about a relationship based on obligation?? I wouldnt. I gave and gave and gave some more, all I had really, because I think a part of love is about that – but I never gave consciously with the idea that she would “owe” me. Maybe subconciously I did though, and that is something else I have to change about me. Honestly I probably made her feel guilty – and thats no way to have a relationship. I always told her to lean on me when she wasnt strong, because I would expect to be able to do the same when I am going through hard times, but I guess she just wasnt able to do that giving or receiving because of her EU issue, whatever brought it about.
Yeah I still love her, yes I am hurt still but less every day… but the biggest yes is that I know we weren’t good for eachother as things were and its for the best that we arent together anymore. I am so afraid she is going down a worse path now and just doesnt realize it – but I am not her mom and dad and have no control or say in what she does. All I can do is pray for God to watch over her and her kids and for her happiness, and I do that every night, as I pray for me to able to continue to leave her alone and move on. Its all I can do.
Im not holding out hope that she will come back and I am trying to move on to a better relationship. I had my first counseling session in over 2 years Monday and am going to work on my issues with self love and rejection, and be more available myself. And I will never get sucked into future faking and fast forwarding again even though I love it so much. These are the things I learned from all this, and I am going to try to make myself better. If fate smiles upon us and me and her come back around, I will be better, and if it doesn’t I will be better. But I wont be fooled again and will keep my eyes open and listen to my gut this time. All the pain that I couldve been saved and the ass I made of myself calling her out for dating again couldve been saved if I just wouldve listened to my gut and broke up with her when she said she wanted space. Im learning though, maybe that was Gods plan for this episode. I hope he had a plan for her too, maybe to open her eyes to the dysfunction with her mom and what it does to her other relationships… but like I said its her battle to choose to fight not mine. I have my own problems lol.
Keep your head up Natashya, If I lived over there I would totally date you – when Im ready lol… And thanks again to all of you and the wonderful owner of this site. You are a blessing to hurt MEN and women everywhere who find you!
Bob
That’s good sound advice you have given here. I remember thinking of different reasons/excuses to contact him in the hope that there will be some spark and he would want me again. I desperately wanted closure because he disappeared after a couple of months of dating and pulled the rug from under my feet I never saw it coming, he was one of the best future faking, fast forwarding players I have ever met. I wanted the reasons why he wasn’t interested in me any more, I wanted validation! I had to sit on my hands to stop myself from calling, texting, messaging etc. He told me how he felt by just disappearing. I closed my FB account (its still closed) because the temptation was always there to check his profile and pictures and his family’s, just to get a glimpse of what was going on in his life. Now I don’t want to see them because I know how sensitive it is. I’m over him to a certain extent but I’m still not at the place where days and weeks go by without him entering my thoughts. I’m working on it though!
“Getting Closure on Closure” – I love it!
Aye, aye, aye, it’s the perennial problem so many lovely peeps I know have faced… and got badly wrong. They drag it out, get back together, split, get back together, amicably split, get back together, then fall out royally. A child is tossed around like a weapon and suddenly, a year on and both parties are in more pain and further away from healing than had they had the courage of their convictions and walked away first time around.
It’s not easy, there are never rights and wrongs, everything is grey but sometimes you have to look at who broke up amicably and who didn’t and conclude that sometimes the best course is to go through the pain early and get on with your lives rather than blaming each other for the stuttered years that follow.
Lovely peeps deserve better than tearing each other apart. I have two friends in mind as I write this. So much sadness and pain.
Oh Grace Palmer. You could be talking about me!
“both parties are in more pain and further away from healing than had they had the courage of their convictions and walked away first time around”
Now that line resonated with me. Nine years. Nine years I spent trying to patch together what was essentially dead in the water instead of having the courage of my convictions and walking away the first time around. I’m out now. And staying out. That’s the only closure I need.
Natalie.
Well THAT was a mouthful! lol!
I don’t think the idea of “closure” is so simple when we’ve been in an abusive relationship. Abusers will never provide closure other than through showing us who they ARE. Their behavior in the relationship SHOULD be enough, but often it isn’t because of the pain endured by the person who has taken the abuse, REGARDLESS of our involvement and why. It’s hard not to take it personally, rather than assigning it to who someone who has shady characteristics, especially when the abuser makes sure that the victim IS at fault. It’s MORE difficult when he’s off in another relationship almost immediately. Abusers don’t “give” closure.
So how do we give it to ourselves? I’m halfway there on that one. Even though I know who he is, and the history, I find myself stuck two years out now. Perhaps because the relationshit itself was so traumatizing, I think I was numb the first year. I’m in therapy and working through this right now. For some reason, validation IS very important and can be “closure” for those who have been abused. I’ve seen survivors I’ve worked with better able to let go of what happened when she gets the blessing of knowing he HAS NOT changed with another partner and that he unfolds JUST the same. It is often ALL she needs to let go and work on herself. I’ve been working very hard on myself, but I don’t have that validation. I probably never will, so I think my healing is a little slower and because of the role I played (OW) I take on not only his shame, but my own too when he never bothered and it seems as if he has been “blessed” in his life now, has changed, blah blah blah, when my life was nearly destroyed and I’m busting my ass off just to find a little peace in process. I took all the responsibility while he took none of it.
It’s hard to heal without justice.
K,
a thought; do you know for sure that he has changed and is blessed?….just wonder, as I made those conclusions and was quick to think that his life was so happy, while in reality I feared that he moved on and I haven`t and he changed for someone else while was still alone and in pain (which would prove whole thing was my fault and I`m not good enough) . I couldn`t get past that thinking for a long time. Thing is, there is never a way of knowing what is really happening in their lives unless you are a fly on the wall, things often look very misleading from the outside. Most of my relationships looked great to people , with photos to “prove” it while really so much crap was going on, only him and I knew the full extent . Justice sometimes doesn`t happen but sometimes things take many years to play out. I was with someone once who before I met him actively looked for a new partner while his wife was battling a terminal illness. I should have flushed as soon as I heard that piece of info, because that made me sick to my stomach, but I chose to be super understanding of how he must have felt knowing his wife was dying, poor him. Wrong, wrong, wrong. He was into another relationship within a couple of weeks after we broke up and got married very quickly, foreign bride, enough said. I would no more do what he did to get a partner than fly to the moon. I think we need to concentrate on : are they that much of a prize based on what they have shown us? And would we go there again knowing what we know ? I just wouldn`t put myself through that again with any of my ex EUM`s AC`s. I`m mostly ok now but do have these “step back” thoughts sometimes when feeling low about the last one. Then think , “do I want it again” and that acts like a bucket of cold water over my head. Thats how I can give myself justice because otherwise I`m facing stuck.It is a battle.
Sushi… As you said: I think we need to concentrate on : are they that much of a prize based on what they have shown us? And would we go there again knowing what we know ? I just wouldn`t put myself through that again with any of my ex EUM`s AC`s…
And also, once you turn a corner in the relationship with them there is no going backwards. It can NEVER be the same. What you had together is done/over. So its best to walk away with any amount of dignity you have left. It is a VERY hard/painful thing to do at the time (been there done that) but it was the best thing I could have done for ME …
Sushi,
Thanks for your comment. I don’t know what’s going on. I’ve been strictly NC for two years now. Unfortunately, about a year ago, one of the former targets got in touch with me to let me know he was targeting her, while engaged to someone else, getting ready to walk down the aisle three months later. I do know what the new victim looks like and that she works just down the street from me….one day I wound up behind her in a grocery check out line, uuuggghhhh…I didn’t say anything, as she knows nothing (of course) about me at all and there isn’t any point in offering information, OBVIOUSLY…
But it doesn’t help my recovery. It sucks when you want to be NC and yet this is in your face. He works just a few miles away, I was a client where he worked (which is how we met), and remain a client there. I see him on occasion and when I have, he, unfortunately, has seen me in my car and played cat and mouse games when he has, IN HIS CAR, why I have NO clue…
It’s hard to see these images for me now. And it does have something to do with my current circumstances. I got very sick with a couple of autoimmune disorders that have wreaked havoc on my life as well as PTSD now too. I do believe it was from the severe stress I lived in the relationshit. I have had to file for SSI, but it will be months, if not years, before it gets to a hearing. I was in school studying for my Master’s in psychology when I got sideswiped with my illnesses and a serious cervical spinal issue that led to myelopathy, as well as the PTSD and could not continue school. It was two months after the relationshit ended that I began to experience symptoms and eight months when it was full blown. I’ve been dealing with “fallout” from this relationshit, in therapy and working hard, for well over a year, but this year has been much more difficult than year one. I do believe because I was numb from so much trauma. I lost so much of myself, and subsequently, many things that were important to me in my life too. Getting my degree was one of them. I think after so many years of complete hypervigilance and abuse, my body was not able to tolerate anymore, and when I was finally free of the abuse, my body went into shock, I think..
Being in therapy has opened up a huge pandora’s box of past abuse. It has been very hard and very challenging to look squarely at myself and my decisions and to see from where it is they have come from. I feel a lot of anger, at myself and at him, at them..the whole lot of abusers. I have taken responsibility for my actions, and my choices, but I’m taking responsibility for the abuse too in carrying a lot of shame and self hatred. I struggle because there is apart of me that feels I deserved what happened to me, then there is this part of me that says I didn’t deserve the abuse too. Ironically, having been the OW and also a wife to an abuser, has allowed me to see both sides very clearly and to have compassion for women who have been so wounded. I tend to pay more attention to survivors who have been with MM’s because often they are not only traumatized, but demonized, blamed and humiliated for being involved with the MM and very isolated and alone during the healing process. It’s very odd to have perspectives of having been in both places..both are so painful but for different reasons..
Anyway, now I’m in a place where I’m in a position where I have to work, at least part time. It’s humiliating for me, because I’m considered disabled now and need to go to occupational therapy to find something that I can do. I have education, but no employable skill and the dream I had is lost. I made the mistake of putting my dreams into his basket. The happily ever after, white picket fence syndrome..so when he got divorced, I believed there was a chance, until I found out he was actively dating online..cheating. The end was extremely traumatizing to me, so I’ll keep that part to myself, but when I see the new victim, I see my dream in action, with someone else and I compare it to my circumstances and feel that i’m deserving. It has led to nightmares and despairing at times. It’s also worsened one of my autoimmune because of the stress of what I believe is…prince charming and his wonderful life. After all the abuse, and all I’ve endured, it is excrutiating to me…and humiliating too.
I wonder if I’ll ever get past this. It is so frustrating because logically, I know what’s right, I just can’t get my hear to comply. I’ve changed my life, behavior and values tremendously over the last two years. I’m determined to stick with it, no matter how painful, to purge whatever it is I need to purge.
I’m very angry that he has suffered nothing. I’m very angry that I’m still perceiving this as such a monumental loss, he as a monumental loss. I’ve had this man on a pedestal for years he never deserved to be on. I don’t know why I can’t kick his ass off, or at least hold a consistent thought about it. It would help if I didn’t have to see the new victim living out the dream with him, driving by….
Ugh. Just not in a good place right now. I suspect that another layer is about to be peeled…
k, I know what that place feels like and I just want to send you a huge, encouraging hug. You have been through so much, but I can tell in your writing that you will eventually knock his ass off that pedestal.
k, I’m so sorry to read your story.
Although you do have excellent clarity about what happened and how it happened, the one thing I keep picking out from your comment is a LOT of undeserved self-blame. I lost count of how many times you said you took responsibility for this and that, sounding like you blame yourself for this and that, you did this wrong, you did that wrong, you had to fix this, you had to fix that…
Please k, stop blaming yourself. It’s giving you sky-high stress and preventing you from healing.
You were in these relationships because you hoped for something loving, good, comfortable, sharing, supportive and fun. Those were your motives. Not only were they your motives in the beginning, but throughout and beyond — you were so strongly attached to those motives that you hung in there for years hoping that things would somehow start to become loving, good, comfortable, sharing, supportive and fun for you. You didn’t hang around for the abuse. You hung around for the hope of whatever good things were supposed to come next after the abuse. Your ‘dream’, right? That hope and that dream are still with you now. This is what makes you think, incredibly and against a whole world of evidence you know very well indeed, that your ex has somehow miraculously turned into the wonderful man you always thought he could be! k, that’s an extreme form of magical thinking that wouldn’t even get past JK Rowling. It’s totally absurd.
Let me compare your relationship motives with theirs. They were in those relationships with you because they wanted something manipulate-able, controllable, subordinate-able, meaningless, neglectable, abuse-able, unaccountable and fun. Why fun? Because those kinds of relationships are fun to them — they were getting exactly what they wanted from you, and as everyone knows, getting what you want is fun. Doesn’t that just make you want to scream with maniacal laughter? That someone could actually want those kinds of things from their relationships? Oh but there are plenty who do. As you know from personal experience.
A man who seeks someone to be, or eventually become, a satisfying outlet for his cruelty and aggression, his impulse to cause hurt, his games of manipulation and mind-fuckery, is vile, dangerous and a disgusting thief of our planet’s precious oxygen. If that sounds a tad histrionic, remember what Natalie has pointed out to us again and again: it’s his actions, not his words, that count. And his actions were what? Cruel? Aggressive? Hurtful? Did he manipulate and mind-fuck you? Did he do it just once, or was this general and ordinary behaviour? And was he satisfied to continue the relationship in which he could behave like this until the day he decided he was finished with you and needed to move on to perform this kind of nastiness on other women full time? There you are then.
And you think this man has changed?? Are you serious?? If he does have a personality disorder, it’s called ‘enduring and pervasive’. Which means it affects every part of his thinking, his responses, his motives and actions, the ability to feel genuine emotion without pretending is non-existent, and the disorder never, ever improves or goes away. Ever. Just like mental retardation doesn’t go away from those who have it. So with this in mind, you’ll also know exactly what this so-called ‘change’ you seem to believe he’s capable of really is. The ‘change’ is just the creepy new masked persona he constructed when he decommissioned the one he used in his performance with you. Doesn’t that just make you want to crawl out of your own skin in horror? Don’t you DARE tell yourself you deserve him.
k, I agree that your loss of him is monumental, but not in the way that you mean. It’s a monumental turning point for you, in your life, that means ‘this is where the abuse ended and the healing started’.
High five.
Grizelda,
thats all the corners of Extreme Magical Thinking swept out with a big, fat broom! Just had to print that out for my weak moments.I remember my shrink refered to my last ex as having a rigid personality, your comment so fits!
This comment is really excellent. 🙂
You would be great as a “closure” coach!! Great response =)
Griz,
UUUUGGGHHHH!!! Thank you for your comment!
Is JK open to offers with regards to the magical thinking ideas, because apparently this is a strong suit for me, lololol!
Anyway….I get the personality disorder. I educate about it, work with survivors in it. I understand and know what happened and am clear about it. This is where the battle comes in for me. I blog about this stuff, am well educated on the subject, BUT, I realized that I did not have a place to go for my own healing. So I popped on by here and started reading. Nat doesn’t deal with the disorders in labeling and dissecting them, but many of the assclown/EUM behavior is much the same, so it was as close as I was gonna get to finding a healing place for me. And then everyone’s posts, so many indicate personality disordered behavior…you KNOW this, so I feel comfortable sharing with you about it, as well as sharing here…and I can’t tell you enough, how much it helps. I’m actually shocked, lol! Survivors here are really working hard on themselves. In having visited fb pages and other blogs, it isn’t the case when dealing directly with the disorders. It’s usually disorders running pages that keep survivors ruminating without encouraging personal growth. This blog encourages personal growth, looking at yourself and I push this on my blog too.
And while I have knowledge, Griz, I also have struggles. I know, logically, who and what he is. So please allow me to write this out and see if it puts a cold splash of water on my fantasy of him:
Extreme abuse from him. I remember sitting in front of him many times, while he degraded me. For hours. Bitch was a common reference to me from him. He ripped me apart, physically, emotionally, sexually and spiritually and he was abusive in the extreme at all those levels. He “taught” me that I was not worthy of his attentiveness and love, yet SHOWED me that his wife and other women WERE. This was a major mind fuck for me. MAJOR. I just bought Natalie’s book for my Kindle last night, Mr. Unavailable and the Fall back girl. I’m blowing through it very fast, but processing it is going to take time. Anyway, the idea of being his emotional air bag is what I WAS, although I referenced it as being his POISON container. He did not treat other women this severely, in my world of dealing with him. JUST ME. I was not love bombed like ALL of his other women (at least the ones I know about), so when one of the targets contacted me last year and told me what he was doing to get her attention, I was HEARTBROKEN. I NEVER received that from him, but I WANTED that from him. The only logical conclusion I could come to was that it was just ME. That he was doing this to JUST ME. So here’s the question I have now: I understand my own dynamic. I understand what my role was in his life. I get it about boundaries, self respect..I get it. If I had shown self respect, would he have then wanted me? If I had not been such a willing emotional air bag, and allowed him to disrespect me, would he have wanted me, Griz?
Ok, so that’s part of it.
The second part is reality. While engaged to the new victim last year, he was targeting someone else for a “date” in another state. He did not tell her about the new victim at all and was, in fact, not only seductive, entitled and presumptive about this target, but he AVOIDED answering her questions about the new victim, COMPLETELY, yet kept pushing to see her, to which she refused.
This was six months into his ‘dating” relationshit with the new victim and three months prior to marrying her. Is this what normal, healthy men DO prior to marriage? He was divorced from his wife, dated me, then cheated and was dating tons of other women. Five months after we were done, he met new victim and took his profile off the dating site. Does this make him “honest”?
During their dating, she tweeted a few months into the relationship that he referred to her on his twitter as “just a friend” and she said, WTF? Red flag moment much? All of this from the target that I had contacted me. Once he married her, target looked at his profile on fb and he had one SMALL pic of her on his fb. ONE. She changed her profile of them together, he did not. Target asked me, “If he was THAT in love with her,wouldn’t he have her plastered all over his FB?!” Well, no, because his ex wife is still on his friends list and FB is OPPORTUNITY for him. Keeping his options open. He and ex wife share joint custody of the children, and new victim has a son who now lives with them too. I can imagine the triangulating he is doing with his ex with the new victim.
It helps to get this out. It’s validating to read others comments and to have feedback. It’s harder to keep this stuff inside, eating away at me, rather than putting it out there. I slept for the first time last night with no nightmares, after having read much of Natalie’s book.
My father is a psychopath, Griz. While reading Nat’s book, I had an epiphany. It’s not one I have not had before, but for some reason it locked in: This spath was EXACTLY like my father. He even worked in the same business. Some of the things ex would say, were exactly some of the things my father would say. The degrading, emotional airbag, being the scapegoat, WAS familiar. Chasing love that I never had, trying so hard to PLEASE, WAS familiar. It was also the worst of all the abuse I have endured. My therapist and I had a recent conversation about this. I wasn’t terribly convinced that we choose someone exactly like our abusive parent, and engaging in repetition compulsion. but that is exactly what happened…
Just like with my father, whom I adored, I wanted him to love me. So much that I lost myself.
In the end, I didn’t receive love from either of them.
I have been NC from my father, and my narcissistic siblings for four years now. NC from my ex spath for two. I do not have family, with the exception of my children. The road to healing has been filled with grieving the multiple losses I’ve experienced. The healing portion has been the hardest thing I’ve ever had to do. Ever. My therapist told me that I have been nothing less than amazing with my insights and the accelerated growth. Perhaps, but all of this still lies within my heart. It still hurts. so when I see the new victim or him, it is a reminder of dreams lost, mulitple rejection. I go automatically into shame mode. I was molded into a very dependent, needy person by my father and those who were to love me, but instead, used me as an emotional airbag or sexual object. I knew nothing else. Now, at 49, I’m having to do for me, what I relied on assclowns to do for me. The tools for survival in life, were not given to me. They taught me how to sabotage myself in that I would always fail and never commit. Funny how the fallout appears that way, doesn’t it?
I’m away from the abuse. All of it. I have been alone for two years, no dating, no men, although I’ve been approached by assclowns and never bothered. None of the approaches that worked before, work now. So I’m having to learn everything from a foundation that I was not given. It was humiliating to ask my therapist…how do I take care of myself now? I need help to get on my feet…something I SHOULD have known how to do in my twenties!
This is why I’m so passionate about supporting survivors of those who have been wounded by personality disorders, particularly those who have life long pathological interference and abuse. There is nothing more tragic to see then survivors working their asses off to gain coping skills that should have been taught in childhood or adolescence and were not. The abuse that one with personality disorders dishes out is in the extreme is hard for even survivors to describe.
I’m so grateful for this site. And the book. It’s helping me to look more at me, and to prepare for dealing with the next layer to peel. I have writer’s block right now on my blog, lol! that happens when another layer is coming up. Ironically, everyone’s stories and writing have been extremely cathartic and validating.
Griz, you’re a gem. Your humor and insights are invaluable, as well as so many others here. Thank you for the feedback and the willingness to address my magical thinking. I think much of it is centered in a coping mechanism from childhood that helped me get through daily and extreme abuse.
k, I’m so glad my words could be of use to you. I agree with your therapist that you’re a qualified first-rate mountaineer for overcoming the kinds of obstacles that have been put in your path. I’m sure I’m not the only reader of comments here who’s shaking her head, barking ‘what!’ and facepalming at your descriptions of what bleakness you’ve been through. It’s astonishing you haven’t just given up on the entire human race and moved into a clifftop cave. But I hope you don’t, and since you haven’t, you give the rest of us hope and inspiration that we too can get through each of our own Tales of the Unexpected Yet Totally Predictable Patterns of Assclowns and Their Ilk.
The thing which worries me the most about the magical thinking is that we only allow ourselves to magic-think when we know it’ll hurt us. It’s almost a weird form of self-harm. We have the most amazing tendency to latch onto the ONE thing — the ONE fact out of ten or twenty or a hundred different pieces of similar information — that will conform perfectly to our worst-case-scenario expectations. We become so acclimatised to Big Letdown that we immediately absorb anything that supports that scenario. ExEUM dating another woman isn’t enough information for most of us — no, we have to take that fact and sit down with it and let our hurt psyches jam along to it until we’ve decided the ExEUM/AC/psychopath/jerk is actually suddenly in love! He’s happy! He’s making his new girlfriend happy! There’s so much happiness between them that their faces are cracking off from all the smiling!
He finally found the girl with the foot that fits the glass slipper and it wasn’t me! I’m an Ugly Sister! And so on, ad nauseum. It’s silly. It’s like we’re in a wrestling match with ourselves — just ourselves, in the ring, staggering around alone, wearing an appalling leotard ensemble — and we keep smacking ourselves around and pinning ourselves to the mat. I don’t even think we need to be drama queens or of low self-esteem to fall into this self-defeating habit — all that’s required sadly is one fairly traumatic relationship experience to twist our perceptions enough to form PTSD-like exaggerated responses to the mildest of stimuli.
We are not Harry/Harriet Potters and this is not Hogwarts School of Witchcraft & Wizardry. Professor Snape did not walk in and teach us Defence Against the Dark Arts and how to know things that are unknowable. (Although Alan Rickman can teach me anything, anytime, anywhere!) Seriously this magical thinking needs leaving to JK.
K and Grizelda:
Thank you both for these Extremely Enlightening comments. You’ve both helped me, too!
K…your story re: the childhood trauma and what you were “taught” about yourself could very well be mine. It’s trauma bonding to the nth degree because we were born into it and so thought this is normal. This is how families are.
I didn’t even begin to realize until I was 38 that it ISN’T normal. In fact, the thing that got me into therapy was a relationship with a EU (not personality disordered, two of those would come later) who told me he didn’t feel connected to me. My indoctrination by my narc father was so complete, i had no idea people were SUPPOSED to feel connected to each other!!! I literally looked at him like he was speaking Greek or Klingon to me. Therapy was the first time I ever heard about boundaries. Mine had been so completely eradicated that this was another utterly foreign concept to me.
Grizelda, I agree with you about the magical thinking we do being a form of self-harm. I truly wanted to destroy myself subconsciously and picked two wonderfully destructive men to get involved with in order to do so. The first one (2007-2009) was a complete sociopath and a bona-fide con-man. When we met and I asked what he did, he replied, “I’m a thief.” He immediately changed that to I’m a venture capitalist…but he was actually being honest with the first answer. Red flag much??? Yep…and it was the first of many I ignored. I finally managed to get rid of him and then this past year hooked up with a complete AC/player that I highly suspect is a narc. He actually was so good at manipulation that he not only convinced me to be his FWB (only really without the friends part)but he got me to actually suggest it!!!
So, K, I get ya. Yes, this site IS a lifesaver. Things I became aware of in therapy are now clicking because there are concrete examples of what these behaviors are truly all about and concrete suggestions on how to counter them. I’ve gained even more insight into myself in the pasty few months here than I did through a couple years of weekly therapy sessions…and I too was highly motivated and had accelerated growth.
I believe we are literally demolishing the house/foundation built by the abusive/personality disordered parent and building a brand new, completely different foundation. THAT’S a HUGE undertaking. Demolishing 50 years of falsehoods, erasing everything you were taught and carried with you. Basically, we are literally giving birth to and raising the person we were MEANT to be but that a complete waste of a person did their best to utterly eradicate. Talk about a false ego!
So be gentle and loving with yourself. It WILL get better and it IS worth it. I know, I’ve never felt so at ease with myself in my life…and I’m not done peeling yet!
Grizelda…keep the advice coming. It helps keep me focused and I really, truly appreciate it!
Bella,
I’m preparing to write a post on my blog about the pathological parent. When I looked today at the search terms that lead people to my blog, there were SO MANY that were about narcissistic or psychopathic parents. I know this is a major issue for so many abuse survivors that I want to spend some thoughtful time on it this week.
I think the holidays are particularly difficult and when we are more prone to magical thinking, especially if we are NC with all the abusers. At least this is what the situation is for me right now and has been for two years with the last psychopath.
I have been dealing with my psychopathic family in therapy for the better part of a year. It has been BRUTAL for me emotionally and very exhausting. Unfortunately, due to the extent of the abuse and how many years that it was, it’s going to take TIME and that is hard for me. Instant gratification with instant healing would feel a hell of a lot better than what it is to GRIEVE. There are times when I feel I may never stop crying or things will hit me out of the blue! But I do believe that this is occurring because for years, I did not cry. I numbed myself in these relationshits.
Griz, I do understand what you’re saying and it’s an excellent point. I am very good at self sabotage. One of the things brought out in therapy with the mantra given me by my father, was that it turned into a self fulfilling prophecy of sorts. I have been EUW as well, without realizing that this was a problem for me because of the familiarity of the family pattern set before me to follow. AWARENESS, while very painful has shown a light on my path now for awhile. It’s hard to forgive myself for the choices I made. I have made amends to those I have caused pain to, especially my children who were exposed to severe ass clown behavior and abuse by their father and the last psychopath, as well as MY OWN BEHAVIOR in reacting to it. I did not keep them safe as I was too busy catering to these men, pining for their love. How much more self sabotaging can one BE? Perhaps the magical thinking is the SAME self sabotage, a way to “connect” to the familiarity of what was my patterns out of fear. Fear of doing new things. I do them anyway, but when I don’t know what to do, or how to do it, the magical thinking sabotages me into the miserable, dismal failure I believed myself to be…
Fascinating stuff here, Griz. Lots of food for thought. I thank you so much for your comments.
K – love your blog, and I think you’re very insightful! Re your ex: I might be mistaken – but do you REALLY believe he might have changed? I doubt you do. I think deep down you know he hasn’t, simply because he IS one of those asses you so aptly describe in your own blog!
I guess you simply don’t like the idea that some people are EVIL because you’ve been exposed to it for way too long (I’m the same). I believe wondering whether they have “changed” or not is one common form of avoidant behavior. I guess only time (and staying away from toxicity!) will give us the strenght to see evil for what it is. We have to be patient (as you say yourself)!
Sorry for my clumsiness, but I’m not a native speaker…
… and btw, in defense of JK Rowling: I believe she understands psychopathy and its effects fairly well. For example, Voldemort is a textbook narcissist (she even describes the traumatic childhood that might have led to this disorder) and Harry Potter is a traumatized child too, but unlike Voldemort, he manages to overcome this. And while a lot of magic happens in her books (of course, lol), she also shows how dangerous “magical thinking” can get. Just read the great episode about the “Mirror of Erised” in the first book!
There are also a few Rowling quotes on NML’s pinterest wall. I think they are pretty good too!
Grizelda! The part about us in the wrestling match with ourselves…. Gold… Just gold… Best laugh I’ve had in ages 🙂
K, my heart goes out to you. I understand, ended up with autoimmune problems too and you are absolutely right as to the cause of it, the stress of these mega relationshits is completely overwhelming and can literally destroy you. Dealing with the stuff spilling out of the therapy actually makes the stress so much worse but it`s the only way forward, there comes a point in all this where you know you can`t take any other route. That route requires strenth and that`s the very thing you just don`t have battling physical conditions stemming from the original stress, and coping with fallout like work circumstances. It would be so much easier to take if we were phisically OK. Vicious circle.The way out is to not feel like victim, I`m convinced of that but the fact is you are a victim. Anger for lack of justice is the most natural thing in the world, how can it not be. A very wise person, my life saver ( her name starts with N :)said I cannot go further without forgiving myself and i know she is right. So I try not to be upset with myself that I`m angry, and to say, fine, I still think about him sometimes or feel out of control or whatever and it`s helping. You percieving him as a loss in all of this is only a very human feeling , not a crime you are commiting against yourself, it will go in time. I decided also I don`t have to forgive them,I can feel whatever the heck I want,it feels like a very kind thing I can do for myself.We can`t save the whole world and their new victims will have to look out for themselves. Why not let everybody have the responsibility for themselves, it lightens the load for us.You will get past this, you will. Hugs.
PS. Have you tried avoiding wheat and gluten? There seems to be some magic connection with that and everything autoimmune.
Sushi,
Thank you so much for your comment. Yes, I avoid wheat and gluten. I eat healthy, take vitamins (prescribed and OTC), and Vit.B12 shots for pernicious anemia. I drink a TON of bottled water (Dasani is my favorite!). I’m under the care of two doctors right now, my PC and a specialist for the autoimmune as right now both my autoimmune are in active phase (Lupus/Hashi’s). I’m so sorry you suffer from the same, Sushi. I think this has made me the most angry. When I left AC, still traumatized, I felt that continuing school was my ticket to eventual financial and professional success. UGH! It’s so so so hard to let go of that dream. SO very hard. Had I NOT been in the last relationshit, I may not be sick today. There is something about personality disorders and the subsequent pathological dynamics involved that create an extreme amount of hypervigilance at all times. I do not remember not feeling afraid or compromised the entire time, but I could not name it. I just numbed it in drinking WITH him…I never touched alcohol before him. It took ten years for me to realize that this was a problem for me and I was SCARED and wanted to stop. He did not. He said i was the one with the problem, NOT him, as he poured himself a vodka and OJ at NOON…that day. I knew if I didn’t away from crazy, I would die.
I’m so sorry, I trail off here and am long winded.
If you have anymore suggestions as to what helps you, Sushi, I’m open to them. Apparently, we are to get an acupuncturist into our clinic soon. I have been DYING to try this. I hear it works for so many people, especially with pain and my pain levels are off the charts. have you tried this form of therapy? Bless your heart. Thank you.
K,
Guess what, I think you are my twin sister.I read a lot of your posts and much in them is about me. I get this hypervigilance and the fact that you get so intuitive and insightful, but fail to have the know in how to use it for your own good.I think it`s the effects of abuse.
I have lupus like symptoms and did have over and underactive thyroid(at the same time) which puzzled specialists until a homoeopath figured out it was an adrenal exhaustion which made thyroid go nuts. That was clearly from severe stress and has been sorted out only when the stress eased up by homoeopathy. I whole heartedly recommend it as it has hugely helped with lupus like stuff as well and probably prevented me going into full blown version. It helped to the point of reversing bad test results. Controlling candida can lower your ANA to normal levels ( wheat and gluten+sugar connection) and do get your vit D checked as seems to play an important role. I am going to try 5 point acupuncture and kinesiology as well. The mayor thing is to reduce stress levels ( right, I know, we wouldn`t be there in the first place without it) and found mixed yoga/meditation class which works.I`m so glad you found BR to look after yourself because you are so focused on helping others, that has a good and bad side for you. Natalie and everyone on here gave me a place and tools to make space for me.You have a self protection system built into you and a passion to move forward and you will heal and improve. He will stew in his own juices, let him burn ( in hell). They are not worth it.
Sushi,
thanks! I take vitamin D prescription strength. 50,000 iu a week. My adrenals were checked and they were normal, my autoimmune tests for Lupus and for Hashi’s were not. They were very high with the autoimmune, meaning that it’s active right now. Yes, keeping stress levels down is very important. I use to be quite hyperactive and rarely sat, now the biggest lifestyle change is slowing down for rest. That has been REALLY hard, but I wonder now if it wasn’t just a blessing in disguise. My therapist and I discussed this at length in that my whole goal in life was to DISTRACT myself from dealing with emotional pain and trauma, so these illnesses flattened me and forced me to deal with it.
I love what I do in survivor support. At the same time, I realized I was not giving myself the same healing support and time I was suggesting to survivors to take the time to do for themselves. So here I can do that and feel that I can share honestly and openly about it, how I feel as well as feedback which has really helped so much in processing all of this.
It’s so helpful to me to be able to support others who are going through so much pain in dealing with those who have personality disorders. It’s a whole different ballgame with that level of abuse and when it’s sustained, it’s hard to find others who understand it, let alone encourage looking inward.I’ve learned soooo much and it’s a passion for me, as well as a pain at times. Ironically, it’s reading and listening to survivors stories that has helped me move the process along. I think that one of the critical keys to healing IS support, but support that encourages personal growth and insight. BR clearly does that.
Part of me has healed a lot. Part of me is still way in process…
You mentioned Kinesiology. I’ll have to research that. I can’t wait until our clinic hires the acupuncturist. My medical insurance is limited, so I can’t see a Naturopath, but with my health right now, under the care of a specialist and a PC, I’m comfortable with that for now.
In reading Natalie’s book and really taking in the comments here, last night, as well as this morning, I slept better than I have in a long time with NO nightmares last night! Today, I awakened this morning with NO PAIN at all. I couldn’t believe it when my feet hit the floor! I was so excited lol! I spent the day with my son, grocery shopping and decorating our tree. My pain returned in the afternoon, but I was GRATEFUL that it was completely absent at all, which gives me HOPE. I was able to completely enjoy my son. we had a great time!
I just want to thank you for that.
k,
i am sorry you are going through this. i was in an abusive relationship once. i still remember leaving the house in the middle of the night, after a horrible fight. i checked into a hotel and called a women’s helpline. i was hysterical. the woman who talked to me (and had been through the same) calmly explained to me that i had the choice of going back and living in fear when (not if) it would happen again, or get out and choose me. i did the latter.
people can change, i do believe that. but they won’t do it for anybody else, and will only do it for themselves when they really want to. and it takes a lot of time and energy.
your ex abuser living a happy and blessed life? what gives you that impression? abusers are not happy and blessed. i believe there are some people who are pure evil, but i believe a lot of abusers are troubled souls who don’t know how to handle their emotions. they still have a conscious and they KNOW it’s wrong (my ex did).
but you can’t fix them. you can’t make them ‘see the light’. you can’t make them seek treatment. you can’t heal them. only THEY can.
please, don’t have any illusions that he’s now god’s gift to mankind. he’s still the same person. he’s still hurting you, but right now it’s no longer directly, but by proxy, and the day will come where he’s no longer doing that, either. trust me. i am there now.
and don’t worry how fast others have found ‘closure’ or gotten over the trauma. everybody deals with the healing process at his/her own pace. the most important thing is that you ARE looking after yourself. you are seeking treatment, you want to get better and you ARE! you are halfway there already. that’s the only validation that you truly need. you will get there. you really will.
K
If you,re halfway there you have another two years to go. I think that,s too long. I was in an abusive relationship as well. Careful you don,t end up tormenting yourself as a substitute for seeing justice done. It,s as if we have to suffer to prove that what he did was wrong.
My counsellor has worked with abuse victims, rape victims and victims of child sexual abuse. We all eventually come to the conclusion that we don,t need our day in court to move on. We don,t need external validation. We don,t need others to know our story any more. WE know.
At a church study, marital relationships were mentioned and I felt a sudden urge to start pronouncing on domestic violence. Then I thought, not everything is about this, this is not even the topic of conversation. I can let it go without doing a disservice to my experience or feeling that I,ve let the side down.
Of course, it takes time but as I keep saying, not too long. You can keep the compassion, knowledge and experience you have gained without punishing yourself over and over.
And as for the abusive ex? It,s between him and God, not my problem. I saw him recently at an airport and had the urge to run up and say hello. Then I thought no, not a good idea. I started analysing but stopped myself and went on holiday.
It,s not simple and I,m sure some never do get over it. But barring war crimes and genocides I think we can all move on. And I,m sure people have even moved on from that, if they survived. We got out alive at least.
@grace
“But barring war crimes and genocides I think we can all move on.”
well put!
Natalie: thank you a million times over. Your posts have brought me back from the brink more times than I care to admit in the last two months. It’s eerie how on point to my exact situation/place on the healing continuum they seem to be. Invariably your insights are timely to moments where I feel dangerously close to breaking NC. Like so many involved with an EUM, I’ve spent a good deal of time within the relationship and now out of it, feeling perplexed and whiplashed. Naturally, it would be ideal to have him explain to me the “why” and gain the closure I crave. However, I have come to realize that because he intrinsically doesn’t understand his own motivations it would be impossible for him to explain them to me. Any attempt to seek closure from him would likely cause me to remain dissatisfied and confused. When troubled and ruminating I try to remember that past behavior tends to predict future behavior, a mind-set that has helped keep me on the path moving toward a healthier future relationship. I’m grateful for and to you!
Natalie I don’t know how you do it but once again you’ve come to my emotional aid on a day when I’ve spent way too much time ruminating on my ex and feeling incredibly sad. I looked at my diaries for this time last year and the entries speak for themselves. I put up with so much passive aggressive cruelty for so long but finally called time in a rather unfortunate way in March. However the self discovery journey I’ve been on since has been amazing thanks to you, and BR contributors and I go forward a stronger,more confident and thoughtful woman. Thank you
Funny thing about closure. They rarely give it. For the same reasons we seek it. If they gave us “permission” or “closure” to leave-well we might just do it. And they don’t want that, either. They might just have to look at their own issues and behaviors and feel the “rejection” that they dish out all of the time. So typically when we are seeking that closure-and most of us want it to end “nice” or “decent”-they push us to the point where we are no longer “nice” or “decent” but instead blow up with all the reasons we don’t want to be in this dysfunctional dance anymore. THEN they give you closure. “This is why I don’t want to be with you, I can’t stand your tirades and you always coming off on me.”
See thing is-anyone capable of granting “closure” is no one you would need to be seeking it from. In a healthy relationship-you don’t need to ask for it. It comes naturally, either by you or the other party.
So while recognizing what we have been in is super important, the 2nd step is me recognizing that we BOTH were emotionally unhealthy. I dont need him to do that with me, or show him where’s he’s a hot mess. I am grateful for my liason with him because it showed me the ways in which I didn’t honor myself and how I can heal to not have this in my life again. Bless this website though, its truly a Godsend. Thank you Natalie!!!
Impossible to get closure from the mind phuckers. You can’t make sense of crazy. You just pray they leave you alone which they normally don’t. Just when you think you are free of them they pop up like a bad cold. I remember trying to interogate my ex into why he did what he did in an effort to assess if I should take him back. He said I know you want to analyze this but I don’t really know myself why I did it. That is the hard cold truth with most of these AC’s
You got it.
I think a lot of people tend to obsess over why things didn’t work out.
I know I did, back when I was going through a difficult breakup many years ago.
That part about making it all about you makes sense, it used to eat me up wondering what I did wrong and how I could make things right… and it’s something that a lot of my readers deal with too.
But ultimately, you have to make a decision to stop living in yesterday and to make your life about right now.
That’s when true healing begins.
Not with “closure.”
-Clay
Good point Clay;
“But ultimately, you have to make a decision to stop living in yesterday and to make your life about right now.”
In the now and in the reality is the answer.
I’ve learned this lesson the hard way so many times in the past!
Time heals everything but staying put when someone doesn’t love you or want you is just too painful for words. The day I decided to stop doing that to myself was the day I started to live and love freely.
The only closure I need these days is the knowledge that we don’t share the same values and/or want the same things. Totally agreed that it doesn’t have to be a blame game. Blame never made anybody right or anyone happy. Totally pointless exercise.
Lisa
You are sooo right! Giving some sort of closure means the person would have to be accountable, have courage; a lot of folks have neither. There’s also a power issue often at work here. Its as though the other person has to have the last word or action, then you are supposed to disappear by some magical process so he doesn’t have to deal with you ever again. My AC asked why I was so upset; because he did so in a very public and work related setting, I chose to send him a letter afterward describing the situation from my perspective. This was my closure; I didn’t figure he would want to talk about it and I was right. Now if only I could stop the hurt.
I guess it really depends upon the nature of the relationshit, and what happened for it to dissolve into nothingness. I was the OW. I knew it was not going to go on forever, and knew this was not someone in whom I could put my trust. When I’d finally had enough of his lies, disappointments and lack of respect after I treated him much better than he ever deserved, I did not need closure. There was not any thing more I needed to know about his sorry ass. Perhaps those who have been kicked to the curb need closure and the person who did the kicking does not. I am very glad that I gave him the boot, instead of the other way around because had I not he would have been perfectly happy to continue exploiting me while suffered from severe self-loathing. I’m not feeling as generous as to say that I am glad for having the experience. However, I can say that it has helped me make changes in my life for the better. It was more than traumatic for me to face that I had been such a fool, but at least I know that is one experience I will NEVER face again. Had I remained in that shituation, I would have not met the person with whom I have a very good mutually loving and respectful relationship. If it does not last permanently, which is the eventual goal for us both, at least I will still have my self esteem/respect intact.
I was the OW too. I tried to let him go so many times, but failed. For four years. I thought it was easier if he “dumped” me which he did, but now I find myself questioning whether his reason (his wife was suspicious) was true or if there is a new girl. I’m trying not contacting him again. But I work with him so it’s hard. I wish I would have just left him when I had the chance versus waiting until he left. He still thinks we’re friends, eventhough we don’t talk anymore. I find myself in phases of denial, anger, sadness. I hate this roller coaster!
((( Exhausted ))))
I’m so sorry you’re experiencing this pain. I feel for you in that working with him and having to see him would be extremely difficult and it would be harder to heal. I’m sometimes surprised at how many women find themselves in this place. It’s too many! Anyway, just wanted to share that I understand and I hope you keep venting because it is a rollercoaster, but you will heal.
This post is right where I’m at right now.
After a few months of an EUM blowing hot and cold and leaving me so turned around and confused about where he really was I am ready to try and move past him.
There wasn’t even much to say about our relationship. I don’t even really think there was one. We went on 5 or 6 dates and had some nice times and intimate moments (never had sex though) and that was it. He never and I mean NEVER called or talked with me on the phone. All communication was by texting (OMG that drives me crazy). He hid me from his friends on FB and I couldn’t see anything people were posting…which btw is just something else we have to deal with these days.
He’d initiate that we should go on a date. I’d get all happy, we’d make the date and something would come up and he’d cancel. He’d NEVER try to make it up. Never said, sorry I can’t make it today, let’s try tomorrow. It was like he was all gung ho at the onset but then chickened out. The last time we were supposed to get together he was going to come here for dinner and have a nice romantic evening. He bailed. Never once did he suggest an alternative night or to make it up to me. Just said it was out of his control.
So, I read this about closure. And, I think, I will never know what happened. I will never know what was in his head making him blow hot and cold. I will never understand why he just didn’t let me go if he wasn’t interested in actually dating me. I will never understand why he came on to me soooooo strong, only too drop me right when things were starting to get closer.
But, it’s hard not wanting the answers. I feel like I deserve to know what happened. Sometimes you just can’t get what you need. So, I guess you do need to move on, and put the responsibility on the other person for their actions. Because I could sit here and analyze the hell out of what I thought happened. And, in the end, I really won’t know the answer anyways, so why waste my time trying to figure it out.
Great post. And, timely today. Thanks!
Movin
The first time they let you down take note, the second time bounce him. Especially when you,re not even in a relationship!
In the year I,ve known him my boyfriend hasn’t let me down once. He would consider that to be very poor form. It,s not normal, don,t accept it.
What about closure being the final break? I think some of us that have to deal with exes at work are in a really bad position – my closure complaint is around not having to deal with his asshole-ery. It seems like work affords him enough situations to still “be around”. I read the excerpt from the book and the “Poking around” section really caught me eye. I just couldn’t understand how he textbook followed all these articles but for the CONTACT. This especially jumped out at me since I got an IM at work from a woman that is friends with me asking me if I got “off the Name-roller coaster” finally. I thought it was funny that she should ask since I haven’t mentioned him for about 3 months now. The I read this:
If you haven’t heard from him, little do you realise, he may have done the poking around he needed without having to let you know about it. He may have asked mutual friends about you who told him that you’re OK but suffering (he thinks you’re still into him), or checked your Facebook profile and seen that you’re not happy or people sympathising with you (he thinks you’re still into him), or seen you walking around the office or town looking like someone has died (he thinks you’re still into him), seen a ‘tweet’ about how much your heart hurts (he thinks you’re still into him), or heard how you tried to date but decided to stop (he thinks you’re still into him).
Stadia
Put your head down and get on with your work. You,re not being paid to have relationship drama on the premises. I know it sounds harsh but that,s what I told myself.
I didn,t work with him but I was the victim of a lot of bitching and gossip at work and in the end I decided not to care.
Yep Grace is right. I work periodically with ex narc and we have mutual work associates. He failed to show up at a meeting we were both due to attend last week. When people asked if we were still seeing each other I just said no. They said, oh that’s a shame, is it final? I said yes. Then they said “oh, he seemed such a nice guy.” I just smiled and said, “yeah, he’s alright.” Then I changed the subject. Hopefully nothing has been said that he can read anything into, and I haven’t slagged him off ( God it was tempting but I think that would end up saying more about me than it would about him.) It is hard and I guess with hindsight it is the price we pay for being dumb enough to go out with people we work with in the first place. Never again!
I too work with my ex and boy, did I ever learn my lesson with that one! Never again. He’s a pretty important guy in the organization, but one who does his job poorly, and it’s all I can do to bite my tongue and not join in when my colleagues are ragging about what an ass he is. And he really is one, both personally and professionally.
Happily, no one here knows about our brief whatevership, but the problem now is that this ongoing sense of secrecy is actually a burden. It taints an otherwise wonderful working environment. I know things I shouldn’t know. I have to watch what I say – always. I have to watch how I act around him – always. There’s a low level anxiety – always. I have to leave if the conversation turns to gossip about his womanizing ways, and hopefully do so in a way that doesn’t draw attention. I am too embarrassed and ashamed to admit I was ever involved with this creep because I really think others at my company would think less of me – and I’ve worked hard to gain their trust and respect. The working dynamics would change, and I don’t want to risk that happening.
I’ve had to bend myself into a pretzel to think up ways to do my job with as little contact with him as possible – sometimes this requires me to tell my wonderful, trusting boss little white lies. The whole thing sucks. I’ve lost some self-respect that I will never get back. I hope this is a cautionary tale for anyone thinking of getting involved with a coworker – don’t do it!!
Oh, and I decided not to go to the office Christmas party because it’s just too uncomfortable to be there, try to avoid him, pretend I don’t see him, etc. Too bad, because these parties are a lot of fun. I’ll have to tell my boss I’m sick and need to go home. Another white lie. See how crappy this gets? 🙁
I totally agree Nat. Sometimes you can’t get closure from the other party, so you just have to decide to find it within yourself. Even if that means going forward without all the answers you would like.
“You can’t always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find…” 🙂
Sorry, that song exploded in my head the moment I saw the title. What an excellent job, Natalie, of covering all the “closure” bases in your post.
I was thinking the other day that if your former partner cooperated wonderfully in giving you a great closure that under many circumstances that could make you wonder if you ought to be ending the relationship. It might actually serve you better to have some unresolved questions and a not terribly pleasant breakup, because then you probably wouldn’t be encouraged to keep beating your head against the “hope wall” of reconciliation.
Also, I think it’s usually possible to satisfactorily answer all the important questions without the other party’s participation – assuming that’s important to you. I was able to do that (perhaps it was all delusion, but it still felt good). 🙂
Lawrence
Yup, I get it. MY decision to end the relationship based on his infidelities, lack of support and lies. MY decision to focus on me and my kids and heal me so I can be a better person for me and my children. MY decision to shed the doormat persona and walk to my own beat. My decision to take back my power and resign from trying to fathom out the unfathomable. Yup. That’s MY closure.
Chrisalis, I like the power in that statement!!!
and I will write this out for each of my relationshits and burn each piece of paper one by one. Cleansing.
Excellent.
It’s closure when it’s your own hand throwing the door shut with a wham.
Lisa !!! I absolutely LOVE what you wrote. I have left and i am still trying to get off the roller coaster of emotion … probably trying to give myself closure. Lisa you just summed that up perfectly ! My day is going to be great with the gem you just posted.
Great post Natalie,
Hey everyone!!!
I want to start out by saying this is thee best site on the internet.
there are so many different people going through relationship issues all in varying degrees.
This site for me has been a lifesaver for me mentally!!!
Anyhow… my ex decided to break up with me, he gave some lame excuse, said he still wanted to be friends, I of course say yes to this because in the moment I thought, this means he still likes me in some way and just maybe there could be a chance…HA HA HA!!!
this was on July 20th 2012 by the time August 9th 2012 rolled around I had had it with feeling that I just needed to get away, every pore of my being screamed RUN!!! You are better then this!!! and so I did. His response “OK” I laughed out loud.. Seriously!
I decided to tell my girlfriend about my moment of what I like to call Standing up for myself, she says “Oh my gosh did you find out about his new girlfriend?”
(Insert sound of loud screeching tires)
WHAT??? long story short I had no idea, she thought I did and this was my reason for ending the fake friendship.
So here is the timeline July 20th he ends it says lets be friends…July 27th he starts dating his new girlfriend (Hmmmm Who needs validation?) August 9th I end everything with no closure and I am quite alright about that.
In the end of all this I realized He wanted to be my friend because it kept me open as an option just in case the new girl didn’t work out (I don’t know if she did, nor do I care.)So here it is. I’m not an option!!! I do not need some self hating individual to validate me or love me when everything about him says he can’t do these things for himself and he most certainly has some issues.
Validation for me comes from 2 sources. God and myself. Do I love myself??? Of course…How can you love someone else when you don’t love you?
Kathleen, totally 100% agree. This is the best site on the internet.
So sorry you were overlapped. However, you saw the light and did not get sucked into the option-friend card. That is closure. The “let’s be friends” line, for me, is closure. Good for you. As we say on BR, I don’t have sex with my friends!
Agreed – best site on the internet by a mile x
Kathleen this site is awesome! I’m glad I read your post because recently I’ve not been liking the tone some of these posts have been taking. Your post reminded me of why I love this site.
Katleen thank you for sharing your story, congratulations for Standing Up for yourself! I am in shock how quickly these men move on, wow, in the matter of DAYS?! WTF? Good for you not to allow AC to use you and be an option! All the best x
Finding closure, or some means to move on is more than necessary. It can become a matter of mere survival.
It is indeed painful to go through the blaming phase, but not unnecessary when the goal is to find answers within ourselves that make sense and allow to find detachment.
In my case, it has taken about 5 months to accept that only the answers I would come up with myself should matter.
Nearly 3 months later after this first ‘discovery’, I can safely say that I am satisfied with them and don’t need any other (from him or any other source) to make sense out of this mess he left me with.
Yes, it has helped me grow. Yes, I am now (slightly yet significantly) different.
Is it still acceptable, though, to wish at times that things had been different?
Natasha, hang in there. What’s so true is that we have to often times close it out ourselves. I’ve actually thought about breaking my own NC, but now that several months have passed, it would not only be SO awkward, but downright humiliating. I’m finally at the point where I refuse to give up my dignity to be with anyone ever again. When these thoughts of maybe I should email a “hi, how ya doin’?” I think, where is my resolve?!! Oh, there it is on BR and from my own inner voice that says, “don’t you dare go backward and have to start all over again!” (he sends a weekly mailer of where he will be performing, but im just on his circular along with many others–I don’t respond) Think of it like this, with NC, you have extracted a major source of attention, doting, flattery, and fannery away from him. Let him feel that it’s gone. Unrequited love stings, but it’s never lost–be happy you are still human and can feel love, unlike many others who will search for the next best thing their whole lives, never really being happy with anyone they’re with. Once again, thank you Natalie…you never cease to amaze!
Perfect timing. I don’t need to have it all wrapped up with a bow to move forward. I am finally learning how to validate myself and not waiting for it to come from other people (i.e. EUM’s who are the least likely source) or from sources outside of me. NML and Baggage Reclaim has turned my life around, I am on my road to recovery and will someday be a recovering fallback girl. I just walked away from a relationship with an EUM because I saw the writing on the wall, started out like I was the best thing since sliced bread, then right before his divorce was final he started blowing cold, the contact started to dropped off, all typical EU behavior. After he backed away and essentially told me he’s not over the ex, I knew where this was headed. I have been down this road before and knew that if I didn’t break it off that he would have eventually. Without BR, I would have been coasting along as the passenger to a dead end. When push came to shove, he admitted he wasn’t ready. I was able to walk away with my heart still in tact and with my dignity and head held high.
Another fabulous post that I will add to my favorites. I know I will never have all the answers because Mr. EUM doesnt even understand why he is like he is..Honestly, it just doesnt matter anymore(yeah for me). It took a very long time & alot of hard work to get to this point but I am there. Thank you BR ladies & Nat for your brillant post that brought clarity during a very difficult/painful time of my life..
Nat .. Enjoy your much deserved time off 🙂
Again it feels like you are in my head! I’m dealing with a “break up” with a married man. Four years of this, and two months ago he said that his wife was suspicious. I know it doesnt matter whether that is the truth or not, but i’ve been dealing with trying to make sense of this. Wondering if he’s lying about the reason or if he found someone else to mess around. I’ve been obsessing, tried the “just friends” route but just got sick of feeling so rejected all the time. I’ve been trying to get answers to questions that don’t even matter in the long run. HE’S MARRIED. Closure should have happened before this affair even began. I was so blinded by this whole situation. Accepted crumbs. Became the fallback girl. And I’m trying to “get closure” by catching him with another girl. It’s so twisted. Thank you for this post. Closure should come from me. I have the power to get over this and let him go. It’s a hard process and I have many bad days where I lose focus. But I just keep trying and maintain no contact for my sanity.
Exhausted.
Does it help to know that anyone that gets involved with this man is going to be inevitably twisted up too? Men like this are pathological. There is no way to be a healthy person and keep involvement with one of these men, whether you’re the wife, OW, parent, child, friend, it doesn’t matter because everyone in his life is a chess piece to be moved around as he chooses, they are all objects on his overwhelming,giant chess board of his life.
The thing is….since you are not out so long, trying to understand HIM is going to be your focus for awhile before it turns into why YOU were involved. Have you read Nat’s book? I bought it last night and am reading it. Very powerful and it will get you to understanding your experience, but more so thinking about yourself too.
What he’s doing, has nothing to do with you. It really doesn’t. He’s just doing what he does to everyone, no matter who they are in his life.
Hang in there….
Thanks K. I hate days when I keep looking for him. Wondering who he’s with when he takes a long lunch, or why he took time off work. You’re right, I’m still trying to figure HIM out. My best friend keeps telling me not to lose focus. Dont think of the little things, think of the bigger picture — regardless if he starts acting like he wants me back, he is still married and cannot give me what I want and deserve. The rejection eats at me. I wake up thinking of him and wondering what he’s up to. Trying to still understand why/how he could have easily walked away. I know I was only a small piece of his life, while he consumed my life. I am trying my best to think of myself. I deserve better. Reading Nat’s posts keeps me strong, but something so small triggers me and I go back to obsessing.
The hardest thing for me to get over is the probability of him thinking badly of me now, and disregarding the time we spent together and the love I showed him. It’s just shitty. All that means nothing? It’s insane, I STILL want his approval, I still want him to like me even though we’re not together.
He treated me horribly, I’m talking major disrespect and maliciousness. Yet each time I never said a word, and even when I dumped him I apologized and tried to absorb the blame. Because I took the abuse all along and never let him know how he hurt me when we were together, I didn’t feel I had the right to tell him now. He would just turn the tables around and say, “But you never said anything was wrong!” And it’s true. So I can’t help but blame myself.
2 months ago he texts asking how I am saying he, “took our chemistry for granted”. He wanted to meet up somewhere to catch up. But there was something in his messages that had that same old arrogant smell. FOr starters saying I would be “lame” if I didn’t want to meet up. Regardless of this I said yes to meeting, I wasn’t thinking at all, just hoping for that validation. I immediately regretted it and backed out the day before our scheduled meet. I am NOT getting back on that rollercoaster ride!
I told him that it was a bad idea and that we could not have any kind of relationship from now on, not friends, nothing. Period. His response? “That’s not very healthy as far as growing as a person and moving forward, thinking something’s going to be bad instead of good blablabla” and finally with, “I can’t stand your drama bullshit! I should’ve never tried to get in touch with you!!” I cried for days and days after that. Depression and self-flagellation forever.
Then 2 weeks ago he has the nerve to send me a series of text messages, out of the blue, AGAIN, first accusing me of lying and not communicating, then telling me that I’m not “growing as a person” (wtf who are you to tell me this?), and then asking for us to “try again”. ????????!?!?!?!!?!? HELL NO. I didn’t respond at all, and just an hour after asking to try again he sends his last parting words: “One day karma is going to screw you over”. No, I think I’m paying for my decisions enough right now. I think this relationship has taught me everything NOT to do and the worst possible choices a person can make.
Malaise,
Wow. What a vile person he is. His comments are incredibly malicious – suggesting there’s something wrong with you or bad things will happen if you don’t agree to be meet him! You showed a lot of strength in resisting him. You might be surprised at how quickly you recover.I hope so any way.
Thank you so much Mymble. This site and your guys comments are a huge part of that healing. I still wrestle with shame and self-blame though, and constantly trying to understand his mindset and motivations.
I was stupid the other day and went on a dating site- not for myself, but just to see if he would still be on there, and guess what? There he was! Only this time in his new profile he lied about his age, (he’s 40 but put himself as 35, midlife crisis much??) and several other details which made me want to vomit. The way he presented himself was so misleading and dishonest I almost felt like warning every damn woman on there to avoid this sociopath like the plague. I just can’t stand that he is going to get away with it again and again! Where is the justice in this world???
What Mymble said. The nerve, trying to accuse you of ‘not growing as a person’ just because you’re not falling all over yourself to sign up to his special Christmas Fallback Girl Programme. It would be laughable if it weren’t so sad.
Malaise,
yes, they try the good cop, bad cop approach….it`s called a mindf..k and is just so low, I had that too and it`s so upsetting, made me doubt myself, I think he knew me more than I knew myself back then. Keep your head up, you lernt, he doesn`t have a hope in hell of learning anything for himself.
Oh my God, YES. I seriously doubted my own reasoning every second. I never knew which way was up, whether to trust my own instincts or give him another chance.” The power he had, and how weak I was and still am at times to give in to HIS side of the story? He’s not all that! He’s not untouchable.
But I won’t do it anymore. From this point on I refuse to try and see things from his side, because his perspective is aimed completely at cutting me down so that I cannibalize myself, and he gets off scot free. Why would I want validation and approval from someone like him? Is he so much better and important than me that his opinion counts for so much more than my own? No one is so important that I should have to cut myself down for their sake.
malaise,
that is exactly what happened to me. When I broke up with him I gave him two major reasons,one of them was “I don`t trust you” and the reason for that was he consistently showed me that he is not trustworthy.His answer, by text of course, was that I am at fault and he is just one of the poor badly done guys I hurt because of my trust issues. Followed by I love you and can`t live without you BS. I nearly believed him because my head was in such a muddle after dealing with this sort of mindf..k from him for the entire relationship. But the truth is yes, I do have trust issues with men who lied to me, cheated on me, used me financially, manipulated me and generally treated me badly. At the time they do put you through the spin and there is no possibility of closure from someone who is crazy -you are the one who ends up feeling like crazy.I`m just so glad this is all behind me. Just follow your gut away from him.
@Malaise
“karma is going to screw you over.”
That was his projection, but it *will* screw you over, if you take him back; he will be bad karma. Soooooo tempting to write back “Yes, I agree that is why I am staying away from you” lol but don’t;) Keep NC!
God theee abusers are bastards. Such manipulative bastards….
Malaise, everything he said to you is so textbook. Everything he DID is textbook. He swoops in for another ego stroke through manipulative seduction and the rewriting of history,to get a REACTION from you, and then to turn that reaction around on you and blame YOU for his provocation. UGH! I see this stuff and I feel SO angry!
It’s GREAT that you didn’t meet up. Please be encouraged by that. IT means that your FEAR is kicking in, and that’s a healthy response to an assclown! That one was for YOU Malaise. You see…you loved yourself enough, had enough dignity NOT to meet up with him knowing what the outcome would be.
Not responding is EXCELLENT on your part too! He’s trying to get you to react for an ego stroke! My ex used that zen language too, about being healthy, his favorite said to me was “What’s the point of this? I feel I’m going in circles with you..what’s that cliche? Oh yea…insanity is doing the same things over again and expecting different results….”
This is the epitome of mindfucking, Malaise. They LEARN how to do the healthy pitch, all zen like approaching as if THEY are healthy and YOU are not. What is so twisted about this kind of pathological dynamic and manipulation/abuse is that it’s used to justify themselves in their cruelty. It’s designed specifically to make you believe that you are the one that’s crazy. As we know with these people, they can talk the talk, but they cannot walk the walk. It took me a long time to figure out that, as a psych major, my ex was using MY language to advance HIS cruelty. Because I was at the lowest of low with my self esteem and had been beaten down so badly, I believed this to be true. But please know that it’s not. While we do some crazy things in pathological relationships, when we are out, we don’t DO them anymore if we begin to heal.
You are stronger, Malaise, then you know. 🙂
K, I’m saving your post and reading it every day, you just made it so clear. THANKYOU.
I’ve had trouble understanding just what the hell transpired between me and this A-hole, what role I played in the twisted dynamic. When I met him I was at my lowest as well. My father was about to go to jail, I was kicked out of my mom’s place by her boyfriend for the last time, living in a dive completely broke, hungry, and alone, abandoned by my family and alienated from my friends. I was not in a healthy state of mind and meeting this man at that point was the worst thing that could’ve happened.
Now I’m beginning to see him for who he really is, no more idealising, no more fantasy. I think perhaps the first wall towards healing is breaking down. Not living in a “what if” dream world of hypotheticals! I can’t change the past, what I CAN change is how I live my life from now on, which is ASSCLOWN free!
One day karma is going to screw HIM over!
Stay NC. You are doing the right thing. This guy is really emotionally abusive and a petulant toddler who is mad because you’re not dancing to HIS tune. And he thinks you’d want to be with someone who chops you down like this?
Stay strong. You are the healthy one…he’s delusional.
This reminds me of something that happens in my English as a Foreign Language class.
Students complaining: “Why can’t they just have ONE WORD per verb in English, they way it is in Spanish? (their native language)”
Me: If I explained to you the linguistic, historical and anthropological reasons for the existence of each phrasal verb, would it help you use them in a real-life conversation?
“Part of the reason why unhealthy relationships and their even unhealthier breakups drag on long past their sell-by-date, is because there is this idea that the other person holds the key to ‘closure’”
Yes, my belief was the other person held the key to my closure.
I could reprint the embarrassing e-mail exchange we had in my venture to make him answer the big question of why he cheated on me.
He dodged every question asked, contridicted himself on numerous issues, but read the underlining message of my e-mails that I was still interested in him and he will milk it for all it is worth. He wanted me back he didn’t want me back.
I kept returning to the point if he could so casually have sex with another woman in spite of our verbal agreement then why can’t I leave it be? He has shown me he is weak, his needs and feelings come first as shown by his excuses for doing what he did.
I am embarrassed that I let things linger and tried hard for him to give my closure when really I hold the key to closure. NO CONTACT that is closure, he owns his behaviour and it isn’t a reflection on me.
I’ve thought about what you wrote, Nat. And for me, if I request ‘closure’, it’s a signal that I feel out of control and am trying to create an opportunity to start the relationship up again. “Oh, wow, you mean we broke up over a TOTALLY TINY misunderstanding? I had NO idea that’s what you meant!” I thought about the times I ended relationships, was terminated from a job, had a friend or parent die and no: I did not want closure, the endings seemed to be natural conclusions. Not so when I have been attached in an unhealthy way, though.
well hit me round the head with a baseball bat! I fell of the NC wagon and we arranged to meet to talk!! Then i get a text to say he’s changed his mind WTF! Well of course came the tears and the self recriminations. I was so tempted to rage and call him all the names under the sun – but decided it best not to let him see how much he had hurt me. So here I am with a great big hole in my heart trying to patch myself up. I don’t need closure, he is incapable of giving me anything I need. I know that now and it hurts like hell. Please give me some verbal hugs.
((babyangel))
okay, you fell off the NC wagon, and you are hurting like hell all over again. it’s pretty much as certain as the fact that the sun rises in the east (and not from his bum… when we think this, we are mistaken and deluded).
i am sorry you are going through this. i did the same and i felt like i was going through the darkest part of the beak up all over again.
but… you didn’t actually meet so he could mess with you just a little bit more. you didn’t contact him to freak out. bonus points for you. you would have felt even worse.
so… not all is lost and we often learn the most from the most painful mistakes.
get back on the NC wagon, strap yourself in tightly and securely. i’m right next to you with an endless supply of ((hugs)).
((babyangel)),I’m here too with lots of hugs. Well done for not letting him see how much he hurt you.Just get back on the NC wagon and keep moving forward. Today you’re hurting, but it WILL pass.
((Babyangel)) things will get better. Falling off the wagon really does hurt, it’s like putting your hand back into the fire. You just cannot do it and come away feeling better, only worse.
Staying NC genuinely is something to be proud of. It’s a statement in itself, and it shows incredible strength and wisdom on your behalf. You can do it.
((((( babyangel))) BIG HUGS! You can do it!
Babyangel, I am so sorry you feeling this way:( I was in exact situation in the beginning of this week and had a “talk” but AC did not say anything, he even destroyed all hopes which I may had! NC is only option for all of us, AC are not worth even one minute of our precious time! Hugs and kisses from me:)
Skadia.
Don’t get involved with a co-worker. You’re not that desperate, and what do you do when it’s over? Quit and go looking for another job? Way too much stress and confusion. You’re better than that, I would hope.
You know Natalie, you just have a perfect, spot on clarity and a way with language that is a true gift: “Ironically, we also use seeking closure to avoid closure.” I was in so much pain while involved with the exMM. However, I thought the pain of being without him would be greater. Thus, I prolonged the end because I knew it was going to be painful. The longer I prolonged it, the more painful it was. I was seeking closure to avoid closure…that is like being caught in a spin cycle.
Avoiding closure by seeking closure in order to avoid the pain of the loss is really apparent when you see your daughter doing it. I want to rescue her from the spin cycle. I know I can’t. It’s hard to watch though.
Things become a habit and the longer we stubbornly persist in waiting for him to do whatever it is that we think will stop us hurting, the harder it becomes to move on and the longer it takes.
While I agree we shouldn’t rush the healing i am very wary when I see comments that it takes time, or it takes as long as it takes, or it,s been x years etc. the longer it goes on, the longer it goes on and I warn against just waiting it out. That,s what I did until I came across BR. It was six years before I dated again, I don,t regret that but it was the last years when it was possible to have children, which I do regret now I,m with someone with whom I would like to have a child.
The ex was not even remotely that special. We all have to grasp that. If the widowed can move on so can we. I get that dead people don,t come back to torment us but we are perpetuating our own misery if we refuse to get over it. it sounds very noble that we love so much, we suffer so much, we,ve been through so much. It,s low self esteem to believe that,s what we have to offer.
If you seem infinitely stuck it may be worth getting counselling. Not just to vent and get sympathy or to justify your stuck ness but to seek real lasting change. And be open to suggestions. While we may have self esteem issues it doesn’t seem to stop us being dismissive of the tried and tested when it threatens our warped view of him, ourselves and relationships in general.
You may not get closure as you wish it but you will get something way better.
Thanks for writing that Grace. I too gave away all my child bearing years and so did friends of mine, pining over unavailable men. I even entered counseling twice and went until the therapist said I graduated. Both times were very helpful to me but it wasnt until I discovered this site that real change began. I had all the tools I just wasnt making myself accountable for using them. That’s what I love about Nats topics, they are all about making one accountable for themselves and not other peoples actions. I wish all my friends would get on here and read this so that I could have some backup and support in real time, but until then, I’ll trudge along with the help of all of you.
“You may not get closure as you wish it but you will get something way better”
Exactly. You’ll get your life back.
((( grace )))
I know you mean well, but may I offer another opinion on this?
I think some are able to get past it much quicker than others. In working with survivors of personality disorders, some have taken off within a year. Generally speaking, there are some circumstances that allow for the speediness of their recoveries: 1. They come from healthy backgrounds and this is the first, even though devastating, time that they have ever been involved with something so evil. Despite involvement, they managed to get out relatively quickly, but not without damage and a healing process, yet otherwise have a good perspective on what healthy is and have LIVED it. 2. Personality. Yes, this does make a difference. Some people are just, by nature, positive and optimistic. It’s rare when it’s someone who comes from an abusive home, but it DOES help them to process things a bit faster.
The “average” thrown out there ball park figure for healing from one of these relationshits is eighteen months, give or take. I don’t like holding to those numbers because too many elements are involved, but for numbers sake, that’s the average. For those though, who are survivors of pathological upbringings and environments it can take YEARS of work. In my case, I come from an extremely abusive background filled with pathology. From day ONE, I was not taught what healthy is, was never shown it. Never had an example of it. NO ONE in my childhood was safe. Not one. The mantra from my psychopathic father to me, was the following: “You will always fail. You will never commit to anything”. This was a projection, but as a child and adolescent, you don’t see it that way…
I can see when survivors get stuck. I can see when they are about to peel another layer, and I’ve seen too many bail on the whole process and go back to assclowns because it’s familiar and safe and they don’t want to deal with the pain of purging and healing. I see this more often than not unfortunately, but for those that do, it does often take years. I have been blessed and very humbled to help survivors to the other side of healing. I see their growth, their joy, their self esteem fly…they are more beautiful when they have completed the healing process, then when they started and most of these survivors have been working on the healing for no less than four years. They have abuse backgrounds too…
So while I know others heal quickly, many others don’t. I think I understand what you’re saying…some DO wallow, but I also see this as stuck. I’ve been wallowing lately and I see “stuck” which means something is coming to my conscience to be healed. While I know this logically, feeling is completely different.
I appreciate your perspective. 🙂
K
overall it took me years too. my childhood was very bad. this long recovery period means that I now can,t have children and the boyfriend can,t either if we marry. I am wondering if that is something I want him to accept. Let,s say we split up over it, I,m back to getting over a relationship but at least it won,t be another crap one.
I never said it was wallowing but it is being stuck. Years later that person is still stuck. No progress at all, sometimes it gets worse!
If no one wants kids it maybe isn,t material how long it takes. Otherwise I,m afraid it matters. Not to add more pressure to an already fraught process but finally I
had to force myself along.
It was well over eighteen months and even over four years. But certainly BR accelerated it, thankfully. It was getting depressing, literally.
Grace
Don’t split up over this.
My brother & his second wife had been trying for a baby since she was mid thirties, had IVF, everything to no avail. Now she is 42. They are about to adopt to cute, healthy, little baby girls. A week or two i saw a story in the Guardian about a woman having her first baby aged 51 – using her own eggs. There are so many possibilities and if you truly want children in your life it is
achievable.
As a parent myself I would say this – parenting is hard work and expensive and oversold by the media, and also there is nothing magic about your own DNA.
Oh and my bro lives in London, as you have mentioned you do.
Thanks mymble, it,s not a crisis but i think something most women of a certain age go through even if they never wanted children or already have them or still don,t want them.
I know couples of all ages with fertility issues so there,s never a guarantee.
I’ve not felt before the pull of wanting THIS man,s child. I think it,s biological, natural and defies logic. I guess it will work itself out. At least it,s in the realms of normality.
@Grace. I’ve read every comment you
have made on BR. Like others we look to you for insight, wisdom with experience, your insight and devotion to us. Every day I check BR hoping “Grace” has chimed in. When you went from “the crush” to the ” boyfriend” you must have heard a worldwide internet cheering please let things go well for Grace. But your post saddens me, “If we breakup…”. Here’s the deal. Boyfriend KNOWS how old you are and what that means (didn’t deter him he LIKES YOU). He knows you’re probably too old to go through pregnancy and childbirth (but modern medicine seems to be amazing).If you want to spend your lives growing together, aging, and raising a family it’s called “adoption”. If you want a life and family together it’s possible. If you breakup, it won’t be because of this. You’re worried he’ll ultimately reject you because of it. He likes and loves you. If you want a family together you’ll work it out. Please don’t be afraid. Talk to him about your worry. I’m sure he knows it’s in the back (front) of your mind.
Grace,
I don’t want to suggest that you’ve not thought of it already, but if this relationship is a good, healthy one, would you consider adoption as an alternative?
I understand if this is a value for you both and for different reasons…just something that came up in thought as i read your post…
I understand it being depressing. I’m seeing that stuck isn’t such a bad thing. I think I’ve learned more from being stuck than I ever would have not being stuck. I was he queen of distraction…and denial. Now, I don’t want to miss a thing!
You’re right about seeing closure really meaning that you don’t want closure at all. One year on I’m still heartbroken even though I see his poor behaviour more clearly every day. He’s still in my life because we occasionally work together and have a few mutual friends, and his behaviour towards me fluctuates between being friendly and flirtatious to cold and hostile to deliberately flirting with others in front of me like he wants to make me jealous. My foolish thoughts fluctuate between thinking he’s an a$$hole who will never change, to wanting to believe he regrets dumping me and is acting out to express that. I have fantasised about the closure talk, imagining that he would feel remorseful for how much he hurt me and realise what a fool he’s been to let me go, or at least realise how hurtful his current erratic attitude is to me, and be more considerate in future. But I’m wanting something from him that doesn’t fit who he really is. If he was a better person the relationship wouldn’t have ended in the first place, or at least would have ended in a respectful way. But still, in my fantasy it’s good to hear him say sorry and see genuine remorse on his face. I cope with it by telling myself I’m a much better person than him, and that I believe he knows that and does feel bad about how he treated me. It’s still hard to let go of how I hoped it would be though, especially when I’m not having any luck finding someone new that I genuinely feel excited about 🙁
Crazy
Your life cannot hinge on the ex or whether you meet someone new. I did meet someone but I was happily single when I met him. If I had not been happy our relationship would not have got off the ground. I did get anxiety when we started out but having that bank of happiness and BR saw me through it. Otherwise my crazy would have ruined it.
And I would add that another exciting man is the last thing we need. I,ve had enough relationship drama for several lifetimes and am very content to be in a relationship that is consistent and enjoyable. It can,t be exciting when I always know where he is, that he will do what he says, that he never blows hot or cold. Romance, charm, compliments, thrills and chemistry say absolutely nothing at all about whether someone is a good prospect. I,m not just neutral about it, it,s almost a red flag when they start wheeling out their bag of tricks.
Grace,
“Romance, charm, compliments, thrills and chemistry”…you just described love bombing, and this IS a red flag, the biggest one we will ever have when it comes to a major ass clown…your description of a healthy relationship looks NOTHING like that whirlwind fairy tale shit. At all. Mr. “Sweet you off your feet” is actually Mr. Extremely Dangerous.
Excellent clarification on healthy versus unhealthy!
thanks natashya – its good to know someone is strapped in next to me and i am not taking this ride alone. Well here i am climbing into the seat again – it must be for the last time – i cant do this one more time!
ive been on the internet all day reading,reading, reading why im like this and how my fear of rejection and abandonement creates ever decreasing circles. You know it sucks that as children the adults around us screwed us, but it sucks even more that when we grow up we do continue to do it to ourselves.
I know exactly who my EUM is and why I am drawn to him and why I should stay away from him. And I still can’t quite squash that needy feeling I get when I think of him. I certainly am a bonefide relationship crack addict and the withdrawl is killing me!
babyangel, you don’t need to do it one more time. stick with it. it’s the only way. i’m on NC day 5 now and i’m doing better already. of course, i am still dying to torture myself by checking out his online presence but i’m not. if i see him online, i suspect he’s chatting to some other woman, if i don’t see him online i suspect he’s out on a date. i can’t win with this one, so i am simply not going to play this game.
i too have a great fear of rejection and abandonment that i wasn’t even aware of til i met the EUM. we spent pretty much 24/7 together for several months and i remember having separation anxiety attacks attacks when i thought about the end of our travels (we live in different countries, though it’s only a short flight).
i spent 14 years in other relationships and never felt like that before, ever! meeting this person really poked some old wounds rooted in childhood. i did a regression session (hypnotherapy) and it makes total sense, even though i did have a pretty good, happy childhood over all.
the good thing is though, that once you’re aware and the issues are on the table, you can DO something about it.
i hear you about the addiction and withdrawal. i too have morphed into a grade A relationship drama junkie but rather than escaping into some other relationship to ease the pain, i am working through this, and most importantly, working on empowering myself to make better choices and to better handle these situations (rejection in general) in the future.
a friend of mine told me the ex EUM has given me a great gift; a much needed wake up call. perhaps he’s right.
i’ve been thinking about some more (if that’s even possible) and i’ve come to the conclusion (hopefully the final one) that it really doesn’t matter why he did what he did. he could have told me that he overestimated his capabilities for being in the relationship that i wanted. he could have told me that he didn’t realise how much he is still in love with his ex wife. he could tell me he changed his mind because he doesn’t like the colour of my eyes. it doesn’t matter, it doesn’t matter, IT DOESN’T MATTER. there’s nothing he could say or do to make it any better because what’s done is done. as a matter of fact, i do not want to talk to him or want him back. NC is what’s best for me and i’m sticking to it.
Good, natashya. That’s what it all boils down to. That is as simple as it can get. It’s his life, he can do whatever he wants with it. So can you.
Nat I’ve recently had the entire lesson of what needing ‘closure’ really means shown to me. My sister found out 10 days ago that her husband had been having an affair from the OW’s husband. So needless to say its been ended (so far). But the OW has been texting saying she deserves ‘closure’ and since that didnt work she had her friends text begging on her behalf for closure as well. Now these people are all married, and they work for the same company (including the OW’s husband) if its found out, my b-in-law and the OW will most likely be fired. They also all have children and cant afford to be divorced or lose a job at the moment. So the OW’s need for closure is just a clear case of wanting to continue contact, not to mention my sister and the OW’s husband now think that she is crazy.
Sorry posted before I was finished. Anyway my lesson here is that Nat is completely right about closure just being a form of keeping contact. We all know why the relationship ended if we sit down and really think about it. Chasing ‘closure’ is just unhealthy and makes us look like we are ‘nuts’.
Agreed, SM — whilst I appreciate that people want to do any number of things to resolve their hurt, and they certainly deserve to try to straighten things out in whatever way they can, I do tend to think the closure-seeking is far more likely to hurt them rather than help them.
Sometimes it’s pulled out of the bag to keep contact, sometimes it’s just attention-seeking (especially when the seeker goes around telling all friends and family about how they need this and want this from their ex, thus recruiting a cheerleading section and really piling on the pressure). Other times, it’s a legitimate-sounding excuse to leap off the NC wagon and try to stir things up a bit. I guess I just cannot fathom why people want to hear their ex describe again and again why they were dumped — particularly if their ex’s reasons involve a lot of lies. They want to hear these lies all over again? Or do they really want the total and unvarnished truth about themselves and the situation that the ex has at least tried to spare them? Or do they just want to keep asking the same ‘why?’ question again and again, hoping that somewhere along the line they’ll get a different answer? Or is it because they want to impress hard upon their ex that “ok this is breaking up, we’re breaking up you know, do you comprehend this, do you get it that we’re breaking up and this is what it’s like to break up right now, are you feeling it like I’m feeling it, this breakup that you and I are doing together this moment in time, this shared experience between us, this common purpose which may be our last and final for eternity, unless of course you change your mind, in which case there’s still time, just tip me the nod, just say one tiny half-syllable that will keep me up all night again trying to figure out its meaning and whether there’s any hope behind it, going once, going twice, going two and a half times, going two and three quarters times, there’s still time to get your bid in, I don’t want to bring down the hammer on this relationship yet, do I hear your bid sir, do I hear another three months from you sir, one final bid sir, just twitch or blink or inhale sir and I’ll take it as a nod sir…”? Nuts indeed.
Griz,
“I guess I just cannot fathom why people want to hear their ex describe again and again why they were dumped”
I don’t know that it is all about hearing again again why you were dumped.
I think for me as someone who goes over and over the end and obsesses. It is more to do with that the past however many years I was involved with them did I mean something to them?
Maybe it is a way to avoid reality they show you who they are with their assclown behaviour but you still want to have meant something, anything to them.
And when they do come back you think yessssss i meant something surely I will get different results this time round ?
I think from what people post that is why healthy relationships are easier to move on from you know you meant something to them you have a good solid reason for your break up you leave each other alone and move on.
With acs eums what do you get lies, excuses, overlapping, cheating, yes all of which should make you want to walk away but they also like to reappear in your life mess with you again then dump you again.
And sometimes battling through the lies and facing the stark truth is helpful and can help you move on just it seems like the acs and eums are incapable of telling it to you.
Tulipa,
I also wanted to have meant something. I wanted the baby to have meant something. He’s back trying to reconnect, but we still don’t mean anything do we? It’s all the same, the lies, excuses, the cheating. God give me strength because I can’t do this anymore.
Lilly,
It is a painful position to be in.
I have to say no to your question we will never matter in the way we want to them no matter how much we want to and try to.
I have tried more than once with the same guy and the end is always the same the path to the end is always the same.
I’m sorry for your loss, Lilly, I couldn’t even begin to imagine what you are going through.
Don’t let him push the reset button, stay strong and as hard as it is stay on professional terms only and look for ways to cut even that out.
Tulipa, thank you, xx
Lilly,
don`t go back to the source of your pain.x
Tulipa,
I don’t think it’s as self sabotaging as wanting to hear them dump you over and over again either…
When my assclown did this, I wanted him to tell me I meant something to him, that there was MEANING in what I perceived was shared, when absolutely NOTHING was. This happened when my marriage ended too. No closure at all. Just as he was incapable of loving me, he was also incapable of providing closure when he had not the empathy to understand or to know what that MEANT. How can you give emotional closure to someone who has the capacity for empathy/compassion when you don’t? Because they don’t understand the universal language or value of love and its meaning, they don’t feel, they THINK and there is a big difference with this. They’re emotional predators who exploit, and that takes some acting talent, serious empathy deficit and STRATEGIZING..thinking not feeling. When they’re done with the relationshit they’re done “thinking” about it, therefore even though we would expect someone with feeling to acknowledge our pain, they CAN’T. They leave as many questions in the end, as they do during the entire relationshit. We have to provide our own closure and what is helpful is understanding what the empathy deficit is, internalizing that information, accepting it then working on ourselves. What they did or what they will always do, has nothing to do with us personally, even though because we feel, we internalize it as very personal.
It’s also why we go back time and again, or at least a portion of the reason..addiction, trauma bonds, but also the inability to integrate a lack of empathy as apart of character, rather than something we did or didn’t do. We project our empathy onto someone who has none, making it harder to resist their attempts to come back, only to have them dump us again…
Hearing them dump us over and over again, is all part and parcel of the dynamics and cycles of abuse with these people…and our lack of understanding about it…
Tulipa,
I know what you mean about wanting the other person to say something that will put a stop to the whirling unanswered questions that are left in the aftermath. But there always seems to be this self-defeating expectation that the dumper is going to provide new information somehow, or that the conversation is going to be any different from the day/s of the breakup, or that he’s somehow going to acquit himself post-breakup, or that they’ll acquire some spectacular behind-the-scenes insight. It’s fantasy-land. If you ever want to know how he felt about you along the way, you only have to look at his actions at the time — like or lump. They were a direct and true reflection of what he felt inside. Asking him whether his emotions were actually better and deeper and more than they ever appeared… isn’t looking for clarity. It’s looking for fantasy.
It’s like asking him if the ‘Rolex’ watch he brought back from China for you is a genuine ‘Rolex’. It’s probably best to take a good hard look at the watch and switch on your own critical thinking rather than ask as if you don’t know. Because he’s either going to tell you the truth (“No, don’t be stupid, look at the poor quality, it’s a $6 piece of crap I bought in a market. I told you it was real because I wanted you to get excited and continue to give me sex how I like it. Sorry if I hurt you.”). Or he’ll mix truth with lies and put on a gross pretence of innocence so that he doesn’t look like the cheap dodger he is (“Hey! I paid $300 for that and you think it’s not a real Rolex?! What the…!!! You mean I’ve been conned?! I bought it in good faith and thought it was genuine. I’d never have given it to you if I thought it was fake. I meant well. I only wanted the best for you. No, no, I don’t want it back, you can keep it… no I just don’t understand what happened… it’s beyond my control… sorry if I hurt you, but what about ME?! I hurt too!”). Or he will lie outright (“Of course it’s real. I paid $13,000 for that watch. What are you saying? That I would give you a fake watch? Why do you make a habit of insulting me? You owe me an apology.”). Likewise if a relationship has failed, and you want to know whether it was ‘genuine’ or not on his behalf, you’ll only ever get answers that are analagous to this. How can there be comfort in it?
When it comes to trying to draw a bucket of emotion out of an empty well, as Natalie says, I make a conscious effort to understand objectively what I’m doing by recalling a very harsh but canny quote by the great Oscar Wilde from The Picture of Dorian Gray. “There is always something ridiculous about the emotions of people whom one has ceased to love.”
Grizelda
Ha that’s it.
You already know you got a pile of crap. Any explanation at all will be an insult.
Griz, good word! You summed it up nicely.
“If you ever want to know how he felt about you along the way, you only have to look at his actions at the time — like or lump. They were a direct and true reflection of what he felt inside. Asking him whether his emotions were actually better and deeper and more than they ever appeared… isn’t looking for clarity. It’s looking for fantasy.”
I sit here crying my eyes out.
I sit with my self inflicted wounds and they are self inflicted especially if you have been down the same road before.
He did show me more than once in varying ways about how little I meant to him.
I know he read each text and email exchage that I was still interested and he was correct I wanted back into the fantasy.
I was a fool to think I had cracked the casual relationship and would come out the other end unscathed.
I will have to lump it, his actions spoke loudly many times and I can’t buy back into the fantasy no matter how much I want to and have tried to. He is definately the rolex man who says what about me I’m hurt too.
You are correct, K, he is incapable of feeling emotions at least toward me anyways. I feel conflicted as to whether he exploited me deep down I knew the truth and went ahead anyway and if you spoke to him everything is carefully crafted so it looks as though I chased him.
Oscar Wilde summed it up very well.
Im a bit jumbled right now but will keep reading BR and will be buying NML’s books for myself as a christmas present. Thank you for commenting.
The difficult part for me was the way I got dumped, little talking involved but just a hard quick kick in the ass for me to get the hell out of his life. It was clear he had little respect for me or my feelings. I watched ‘Life of Pi’ the other day and heard a quote that poked me like hot metal.
“I still cannot understand how he could abandon me so unceremoniously, without any sort of goodbye, without looking back even once. That pain is like an axe that chops at my heart.”
? Yann Martel, Life of Pi
It reminded me of how I felt. It was hard to process not just the break up but the coldness of someone who just the day before seemed to care. It’s the confusion of not being prepared, and the fall that inevitably comes when the rug gets pulled out. I go over the ‘whys’ in my head, but I guess I don’t need to HEAR the words from him that I didn’t matter. He showed me. End of.
Besides, he was not that special. I think my pride may of been hurt more than my heart. That truth is kind of ugly, but there it is. No drip feeding myself half truths anymore. Pride comes AFTER the fall sometimes. I don’t think I was ever in love with him which made me think….hey wait a minute here, you’re dumping ME? Gulp.
Oh ladies, I’m so right there with you and everything you have said. Lily and Yogurht, there is a special little spot in my heart for you both. My daughter had an abortion this summer (unbeknownst to me) and going through a great deal of pain. The bf has moved on and she can’t get closure or all the answers from him. She keeps trying. She keeps trying to get him to feel as badly as she does and he doesn’t, won’t or can’t. I wish I could make it all better for her. I can’t. She is going to have to get her own closure. I can’t give her closure, he can’t give her closure. It is really frustrating to watch the closure struggle. And if to add insult to injury, the exMM has contacted me. So I’m in my own closure struggle. It doesn’t match what you all have had to endure. Hugs to you and to your kids. And hugs to you Lily. I’m feeling very sad as to the loss of my daugher’s baby. Tons of needed tears…I didn’t realize I was taking it so hard.
runner: so sorry to hear about your daughter’s troubles. the ex-MM: talk about the cockroach after the nuclear war …
Runnergirl,
I too am a little gobsmacked that he has been in touch.
I’m sure your daughter just appreciates the fact that you are simply there. x
Wow Runner. This MM guy is sickening. Such an ego to come back sniffing around, wondering if maybe crumbs are safe to offer again. Don’t give him the time of day. He really is not special…at all.
Sorry your daughter is going through such a hard time. It hurts us when our kids are hurting. Has she seen a therapist? Maybe that would help her accept her grief over the baby and learn to let go of this ex bf. Maybe you guys could go on a girls trip. Sounds like you both could use a little change of scenery. ((hugs))
Runnergirl, I’ve just seen your message. I want to send you some much needed love and support. I understand completely what you and your daughter are going through. I tried and tried to get him to feel something for the baby and it was soul destroying. How dare that horrible, waste of space ex contact you. Please take care because it really messes with your head. And, your experience does match what we have had to endure. It’s a loss and it hurts. Sending lots of cyber hugs to you and your daughter, xxx.
Lilly and Runnergirl,
I wanted to add my hugs and support here. I have been swamped at work, and unable to keep up with BR comments lately, but please know that I feel for you both (((Lilly))) (((runner))) xxoo
And sometimes, if they are deceased for example, you just say to yourself well I had my closure when they were alive, so now they are dead, I certainly don’t need to go poking around for anymore. What good would it do to learn grisley details of what exactly was happening in my ex’s world the day before he died & that morning, when after 6 mths of NC initiated bylme, he suddenly emailed me. I know what the emails said & I know what they meant. He was not expecting to suddenly have a massive heart attack later that fateful day & to die. Digging for anymore than I already know will only (atlthis point at least while the grief is still so raw, & in a strange way triggered an emotional reattachment to him) will only cause me more pain. It’s the first anniversary of his death in 5 wks. I’m already nervous & apprehensive enough. I am though feeling less ‘attached’ to him. More accepting. I still cry at odd times. But not like I did a mth or two back when I finally allowed myself to start to grieve. There is still much more work for me to do yet. I got my closure re him when he was alive. These are just normal grief feelings. I keep reminding
myself of that thanks to the wonderful BR community who keep reminding me too. Thanks everyone. The coming period is going to be difficult for me. Just taking things a day at a time 🙂
Malaise. THERE is your closure. You did exceptionally well
btw in backing out of that meet up. Good for you in listening to your intuition. His behaviour since has just shown you what a dysfunctional unhealthy person yr ex is. Don’t be fooled by him trying to twist that around & assert the reverse. He’s wrong. You are doing great. Keep going NC all the way. If
ever you doubted yourself or needed an indication that you made the right decision, you’ve just got it. Hold tight to that & do not let go. Yr happiness & future lies in the balance. T x
I’m on 46 days of No Contact. It took an incident involving property damage and a police report to finally lift the blinders off of my eyes regarding my ex.
But now I am utterly consumed with self-loathing. Nat, I know you’ve written tons about not blaming yourself, but I just can’t get past it. Now that I know all these things about the relationship I THOUGHT I had, how can I feel good about myself for staying?
Why didn’t I opt out at the FIRST SIGN. Why did it take me SO LONG and SO MUCH DRAMA to finally say that enough was enough? I’m just so angry at myself for being a complete doormat and letting him walk all over me. Letting him lie, drip-feed, and smoke-screen the situation. Not putting my foot down about his ridiculous narcissistic harem. Not just LEAVING because I DESERVED BETTER THAN THE CRUMBS HE GAVE ME.
When we first broke up, I thought that he would remember me as someone who loved him unconditionally~, but now I know that he’s going to just view me as another pushover that he used up and threw away because I LET HIM.
I hate myself for being like this. I hate that I don’t have better self-esteem. (I do understand the irony.) I feel on some level that I have more closure on the situation about him than I do on the situation about myself. I can’t forgive myself for not making better decisions. I can’t forgive myself for allowing myself to get into this place where I place so much of my self-worth on relationships/men. It just makes me so sad.
We all make mistakes Kami.
We all need to forgive ourselves.
Look within and learn from the experience.
Dust yourself up and…
Go live YOUR life. Not his.
Love yourself more. It’s fun :):)
kami
Spent a long time there myself… eventually, though, I realised that in a way I’d HAD to push myself to the limits of my wrong-headed beliefs and ride at least one of these situations to the bitter end. And then learn the lesson that came with it.
If your values and ideas are a bit skewiff then it stands to reason that they’ll carry on quietly messing up your life until something busts them wide open and you have to rethink. This is probably going to involve a nasty dose of pain and humiliation but (unfortunately enough) they do seem to be the best teachers!
So, while I know that this doesn’t feel like it, it’s a good thing. It’s your chance to turn round all the things that were going to get you there sooner or later anyway. It’s good that you’re sad and furious on your own behalf – providing that it means that you change your behaviour and protect yourself in the future.
Incidentally, you don’t have to FEEL as though you forgive yourself – chances are that the sensation won’t rock up by itself. I would, though, try to ACT as though you forgive yourself. Don’t beat yourself up, if you feel yourself getting into that then wash the windows and mop the floor instead. Treat yourself really well while you’re sad, as if you’re a little child who’s ill and needs treats. Do nice things that you’ll enjoy. If you behave as though you’re forgiving yourself, chances are the feelings of acceptance will follow on from that.
If you’re feeling especially silly, I’d advise reading through the posts of some of the incredibly intelligent, articulate and sensitive people in these comments – including Natalie herself – and remember that you’re in great company! 😀 This isn’t something that happens to people because they’re stupid or unaware or deserve it or are in any way sub-standard to anyone else, and it didn’t happen to you for those reasons either.
Hang in there K. I have not had some of yr experiences, yet we have others in common. I too have ended up ill & unable to work with PTSD & other physical illnesses meaning that, much to my horror, (given I was previously a go getter professional) I am facing / contemplating a future charactarised as disabled. It takes your breath away doesn’t it how far we can fall? And yet I have to believe there is HOPE. There is an old saying. When things feel like they are falling apart they may instead be falling into place.
Otherwise, it’s a shame moving is not an option for you. The reminders & triggers you describe I imagine aren’t exactly helpful.
I just wanted to write & say you are not alone. Hang in. I understand & relate, even if my experiences are a little different in some areas.
Hugs. T xx
Teach,
It DOES. I think this is one of the most devastating after effects of the fallout. And no, the triggers are not helpful. I moved to this side of town last year in an effort to be out of HIS way, so I wouldn’t risk running into him…then was told that new victim had opened a business down the street…uuuuggghhhhh….It felt like an invasion, even though I know that wasn’t the intention. When I learned that and she began to appear all over the place this last summer, I looked up her business hours and AVOIDED going out, but that didn’t work out too well as I wound up behind her in a grocery check out line. Well, at least now I know what she drives! I haven’t seen them lately, him not at all, so hopefully there is so much drama going on that he has created that it keeps him too busy to come into town and her so reeled into the drama that I don’t see her now either. I don’t check, I don’t wanna know, nothing. I’m so much better off when I know nothing, but the images when I do are very, very hard…
Teach, I hope things get better for you. I’m sorry that your situation is similar. Being a go getter too, it’s hard to imagine not being able to distract myself in the world of busy..still struggle, but I know it’s forced me to face myself…while I know logically, that it’s for the best, it doesn’t hurt less! Admittedly, my “pride” has taken a hit too. I don’t do the disable label very well…
Lisa,
That is a brilliantly insightful post! You hit the nail on
head!
Thankyou for sharing.
T xx
PS Just to clarify why I don’t feel ready to start dating. It’s not due to my ex but rather due to other ‘getting my life in order/back on track’ issues. These include being unemployed & unemployable (lol), seriously ill (not so funny), mid way through court proceedings for serious victim of crime issues pertaining to my childhood (could not be more serious), & being financially insecure due to previously mentioned employment situation. I can’t even THINK about dating until I have these things, (three of which did not arise as issues until AFTER my ex had reappeared & I’d mostly maintained NC, so not related to him at all) sorted. Once that’s done I’m good to go.
I more feel that my closure was complete while he was alive. His death I think though has raised other grief issues, I wont go into here but do intend to look at in therapy.
Cheers.
Kami.
Looking back is not going to change a thing. Bury the past. Rejoice. You finally did it. It is well with your soul.
I think someone else mentioned people who are widowed…those people have no “closure”, they just have to grapple with feelings and move on as best they can.
With so many of us having had to deal with AC/EUM’s it might be better to think of them leaving as a death. Think about it…this person has made it CLEAR, or sadly, for some not-so-clear reasons, that they don’t want us. Their excuses may range from reasonable (distance) to degrading (pointing out your flaws, abuse, cheating on you, etc.) But it goes back to THEY DON’T WANT TO BE WITH YOU.
Hurts like hell, for sure. But why jump through firey hoops to get someone to ‘like’ you again? Why humiliate yourself, make yourself cry, lose your appetite, your joy in life in order to hold on to this person?
I think the closure idea is kind of bullshit, unless you make some sort of ceremony for yourself (with the help of loved ones) to say “goodbye” to these people who don’t want you. Like a memorial service to what was and will never be again. Ceremony over at 5PM, now we move on and don’t look back, because we can’t change the other person, we can’t make them want what we want, and,ultimately, why would we want to be with someone who treats us badly?
A couple of years ago I would not have even been able to fathom this idea, but BR has saved me from continuing to be in humiliating situations.
Wow, do I ever need to hear this right now. It’s 5 months to the day that I last spoke to my ex. I suppose that day was the official breakup day, although the truth is he had already moved on and just didn’t tell me. I last saw him in May during a long planned for and expensive visit (we were LDR). The truth is he treated me like shit from the moment he met me at the airport. I spent an absolutely tortuous 8 days alone and crying in his aunt’s guest room while he blatantly cheated on me. Of course, when I confronted him, everything was deny, deny, deny. I’m paranoid. I’m jealous. What happened to our trust? I left to come back home completely drained, feeling as it my world had been ripped out from other me. The morning I left, he was back in loving boyfriend mode swearing he would be in contact and that everything would be fine. So, I came back home and following the advice of his mother, aunt, and every other person in my life and his, I waited him to contact me. But, he didn’t. I made regular calls to his family, pleading with them to speak to him, to find out what went wrong. I laid awake crying, searching for answers in my head, willing my phone to ring. Nothing. I need closure I said…repeatedly.
6 weeks after returning, I decided to call him. 2 years of my hopes and sacrifice, making plans to marry, move abroad with him, have kids, everything…were summed up in a 5 minute conversation. “The distance killed everything”, he said. After all the sorrys he threw in for not telling me sooner, he added “Don’t worry, you’ll find the person you deserve”. And then he HUNG UP. I told myself for a long time that the phone must’ve have cut off, his battery must’ve died…something. No, if that was the case, he would’ve called me back to finish off this conversation and take some accountability for his actions. But, he chose to HANG UP and never contact me again. Calling a friend after that, he said “Well, at least now you have your closure”. Right, I thought. Now I know he doesn’t want to be with me. It’s over. It’s not that easy though.
I spent the next 8 weeks continuing the calls to his family- “I just don’t understand what happened”, I said. His aunt told me she had seen him with a new girl. I called him and my calls be ignored. I even sent the make-nice text message letting him know I wasn’t mad, I just wanted to talk. Nothing.
I made a decision to go NC about 3 months ago and am now seeing a therapist. Coming to BR and doing what I can to let go of this hurtful coward. Last month, I receive an unexpected call from a mutual friend of the ex-AC and myself. I found out that he had been lying and cheating on me for most of our relationship. In the words of this person, “He was pretending he was something he wasn’t”. I also found out his new girlfriend is actually an ex he had trashed to me numerous times. I actually feel bad for the girl as she’s very young and he’s probably her “first love”. The puzzle came together more as I then pieced together where he was exactly during that visit and I started to uncover his lies. I could’ve pried for more information during this conversation, but I chose not to because it all really hurts. The next day I hightailed my ex to a doctor to get a full round of STD tests because it really dawned on me- I have no idea who I was with all that time. Recounting this to my friends and family, I again heard “Well, there’s your closure. Now you can finally move on”. And so what do I do just 5 days ago? After dreaming about him yet another time, I log back onto facebook just stare at his pic. Sad, I know. As my therapist likes to ask me “Just how much do you want to torture yourself?”. Apparently, a lot. I have exerted so much time and energy trying to figure out why HE acted the way HE did. He’s a coward who lacks the self-awareness and maturity to look within and explain why he acted as he did. So, talk about a pointless quest.
For me, my closure issues have changed; ex’s I can deal with, primary relationship ( family) not so easy…
re; positive. I have to say that I am so thankful for this website; it helped me “get out of stuck” when I first came here, due to my nightmare relationship, and 2+ years on, it has seen me through the hopeful start of another one, a pretty functional end to that ( with some slight “lack of closure” and being okay with that, and with way less hurt feelings) and now being, pretty much, contentedly single and both hopeful and yet not desperate, for a future relationship. It will happen when it happens.
I think for me I struggled with that- the “injustice” of my ex, and his little jibes and refusal to give closure. He was willing to talk but only to keep the door open for another round, or to not be confronted with his infantile, cruel behavior. So I had no closure with the relationship that brought me here, until I gave it ( or took it, more like it) to myself. I tried the unsent letter but for me it did not help. I vented in a diary, helped a bit…what mostly helped was just reading about everyone’s struggles here and re-realizing that, all over the world, there were way bigger things than my little piffy relationship hurts. Like Grace said earlier; genocide needs closure but we don’t. We can give it to ourselves. This absorbing of this lesson of self-closure, is mostly I think due to here. Witnessing the struggles of others here which for some odd reason, gave me the validation that I needed from an EU. Some guys just make f##k all for sense lol, was what I “got” in reading all of your great, raging, celebrating posts.
re; negative. I think that I got to the bottom of my need for closure with EU’s(childhood issues with no closure there) here, but I am still struggling with my family. For me, I already knew that, prior to being here,I had “daddy issues” but for some reason, emotionally I had not absorbed the moving-beyond of it. I had just slammed a door, and reopened it years later, and kept careful distance to avoid hurt. Nothing had changed in my family and I had changed, a bit, but not enough to be able to not be hurt again… I still have not.
It sounds awful but I honestly sometimes wish that my dad would die, because our relationship is so fraught and he is so senile and ill and mean, that it hurts to know that he is still around but that there is no hope of us ever connecting. I can’t love him anymore, and that hurts. I want to not care about that, but I can’t.
I am sure eventually, when my Dad passes ( nc again…possibly for good as he is 86) I will have my lack of closure issues, but I have to remind myself that even now, I can’t keep contacting someone who hurts me all the time. Calling someone to say hi just to have them immediately say abusive things, and for me to hang up, just hurts. It is like pulling scars off. I know I need to have some understanding, but I can’t. Maybe the unsent letter will work for this I don’t know.
Dancing…
I have daddy issues too. I don’t blow them off or minimize them, because the abuse is what set me up for a lifetime of pain….I wanted my father’s love so much, that while I understood my role of scapegoat (with him and the triangulation set up with my siblings), I STILL tried, for many years..and each time I contacted him, he was abusive. He use to send me cards each year with a check for my birthday. NEVER missed a year, and as the years went by, those cards contained subtle abusive implications in the greeting that were utterly painful. It took a major blowout between my father, myself and my siblings for me to go NC. I did write my father a letter, to which he showed to my siblings in an effort to justify his chronically abusive behavior. They LAUGHED. I don’t regret sending it because I got to share my feelings, even though he denied what he was doing, at least I was CLEAR on my position.
As children of abusers, we tend to be ultra forgiving and put up with even MORE than we would out of an ex AC or EUM. The societal (Sometimes biblical too if you’re a Christian) is that we need to respect our parents, no matter what.
Why do I need to respect someone who only wishes to cause me pain? My father was NEVER a father to me and contributed to my dysfunctional coping skills in life and relationships. Something is wrong if I’m not angry. I’m still angry because it amounted to deficits and losses in my life I would never have had in a home filled with love for me as a child and adolescent.
You have every RIGHT to feel anger at him, keep your NC to protect yourself and whatever it is you need to do for you. I still love my father, Dancing. I will always love him. Perhaps that is why I won’t have the closure that one might believe to be closure in that it will always hurt. But in some weird way, I’m okay with that, because I know I can LOVE and he CAN’T. He just can’t.
**Hugs**
Thanks K that was really sweet. Hugs back. You know I think what hurts is that he and I did not talk for almost 10 years…and then he started to be nice again, as soon as his last wife died, and I got back in contact. He was nice ( at points, sometimes not always) up until a few years ago, when he got remarried and now he is even worse with his dementia. I guess that he is just that kind of person that if he has his wife, his daughter doesn’t matter. I guess i am just bitter because I did not really understand that, and I got back in contact and let my guard down, only to be shit on:( This is his third marriage that he has thrown me under the bus for, so I finally got the pattern….
I think that you are right; being raised Catholic, it is hard to deny your parents, but I just can’t do this anymore. I wish that I loved him, honestly, but I feel like I love an illusion of who he was. I look at pics of him with me as a baby and I try to tell myself that he loved me then but everyone loves a babty right?
Ergh, it is a long road. I am glad that you got closure for yourself on your dad.
I can relate to you both K, and dancing queen. It’s painful not to be able to respect or trust your parents. If you can’t trust your own family then who can you trust?
Unfortunately, sometimes the trauma goes so deep and has become so much of who we are, the only way to purge these unresolved issues from our past is to keep re-experiencing them until we reach a breaking point and have no choice but to change.
After this soul-destroying experience with my ex, I almost feel like a molecular change is taking place inside me. The self-hatred, the people-pleasing, abuse-accepting, unhealthy way of living for me is OVER. Because just look where it got me? NO MORE.
((( Dancing ))))
How funny you mentioned your baby pictures. I just had mine out recently. I look at that cute, chubby blonde little toddler and think…who wouldn’t/couldn’t LOVE THAT lol! But it’s really painful for me to see and there is a disconnect with that child too. That use to frighten me because there are soooo many gaps in my childhood from all the abuse.. Pathological parents are infamous for playing “Etch a Sketch” with our emotions. I call my father sperm donor or Mr. Etch a Sketch, because I was “needed” for companionship, a scapegoat, or triangulation of some sort. The triangulation occurred even when there wasn’t a third party visible to triangulate WITH at the time. I would “magically” be drawn into my father’s life, and just as easily erased..etch a sketch! I was filler space when no one else was around. This would be when my father was “nice” to me. We shared a passion for writing and politics.
Oh my yes, the “Catholic guilt” lol! I was raised Catholic too. My paternal side are very devout. It’s important not to discount the impact of social and religious perspectives upon a child when it comes to perceptions we have of our parents.
Dancing, our parents are the first real trauma bonds. Everything that has happened to us, if we lived in abusive environments can be traced to that. There was a time I thought it was bullshit. I was in denial for a long, long time. It’s one thing when you realize a partner does not love you, but it’s entirely another when you realize a parent does not, or never did, yet there is still this “guilt” associated with the idea that we need to respect them or are obligated in some way to take their abuse. I think, sometimes, that is so much easier to bear than the hard core truth that my father never did love me because he was incapable of it. It calls into question everything I believed from as far back as I can remember when I thought there was HOPE that he did. What did that mean for ME? It’s devastating to realize that Daddy etch a sketch wasn’t capable of giving me what I needed. We all deserved to have been loved.
I think you’re very brave to go NC and stay that way. It’s healthy to protect yourself, even if painful. I went a few times NC with my father, but never for very long, as the desire to talk to him (as that was validation of some sort for me at the time), was very strong. Usually at a difficult time in my life where i felt I needed him most and it was always an epic fail. Always.
My desire to live free from abuse, is more than my desire to put myself in the firing range again. I learned that any contact with pathology or toxic situation of any sort would keep me in my holding patterns and I’d never be released from it, but that’s a very difficult, challenging and painful choice. I admire what you’re doing for yourself.
thanks K and Malaise
“It’s one thing when you realize a partner does not love you, but it’s entirely another when you realize a parent does not, or never did, yet there is still this “guilt” associated with the idea that we need to respect them or are obligated in some way to take their abuse.”
Exactly; walking away from abuse from an ex is something that any sane person would support. Walk away from a parent and everyone treats you as if you are cold, especially if other family members have different relationships with them. My dad never treats my brother badly and my sister-in-law goes to visit with the kids, my bro…they never get the push-back because he would never dare show that side of himself to her, he is kind of manipulative that way.
It is weird, how abusive parents are like abusive ex’s; gaslighting, selective moments of abuse followed by a big show in public, my dad’s dementia is real, but his ability to be kind to certain people shows me that he is still a sly old fox. erg:(!!! Have a nice week guys!
Great post! I’ve been on the other side- the one being asked to give closure. I was really at a loss, because I didn’t know what to tell him, except what I’d already told him when I broke up with him. He wanted specifics; I didn’t have them. He wanted to know exactly what he’d done wrong; he hadn’t done anything wrong-he just wasn’t the guy for me.
At the time, I got the feeling that some of it was him wanting to know what he could “fix” so we could get back together. There wasn’t a thing he could do to change my mind- i just didn’t care about him the same way he did about me.
If I regret anything, it’s that I spent about two months trying to “force” it. After I started feeling that I just couldn’t love this guy, I tried very hard to make it happen because he was wonderful and deserving. I couldn’t do it, and I probably should have broken it off sooner.
In the end, that was all I could tell him, and it wasn’t enough. If I had known what he wanted to hear, I would have said it, even if it wasn’t true. It wasn’t so much a matter of wanting to be rid of him as it was that I geniunely wanted him to get over me and be happy. I hope he got there eventually.
I also wanted to mention that as a widow, your expectations of closure are quite a bit different. Things were far from perfect in my marriage when my husband died, but once he was gone, there was simply no way I could square things with him. I had to do that on my own.
The difference is, when you lose someone to death, you are immediately surrounded by a support system. My church assigned me another widow as a special friend I could call anytime for help. I got therapy right away and that led to the thing that helped most: a grief support group.
Even with all of that, it took a good two years to work through everything. I think a lot of break-ups can be just as traumatic as death, and yet, society doesn’t seem to see it that way. There’s just the attitude that you should be sad for a few days, then pick up and move on. That doesn’t seem very realistic if you’re mourning a long and/or intense relationship.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that you have to grieve the end of a serious relationship, perhaps much in the same way you would grieve a death. And this comes back to the whole closure issue.
Just like you can’t get closure from a dead person, you probably can’t get it from a live one either (see the inept confusion in my case). You simply have to work through it and get help if you need it.
Christina
Your post was very moving. Whether they have died or ended a relationship, they cannot explain it to you; you have to workout your own answers. Sometimes the answer to it all comes many years later, and you suddenly realise what really happened, without any help from them. Th answer was there all along but you didn’t have the wisdom to see it.
I had that experience thanks to BR; I saw what I couldn’t see 20 years ago.
Christina-
Thanks for this. So many of the issues I read about here (and my own) seem to have to do with the relationship ALREADY being dead, but we drag around a corpse, believing we have the power to revive it and get whatever it is we need–including closure. I have felt for a while that I am locked in some kind of macabre dance with the MM–and in fact, the last time I saw him, after he went back to his wife, he looked like a mortician. Grave. Like a family man who lectures you on keeping the thermostat too high. And maybe that’s who he really is, in his “other life.” That handsome, silver-haired man I fell for had clearly been buried. He’s left yet another vm about getting together at the end of this week with hints about a Christmas gift. Huh? I was crystal clear: there is nothing left for me, please stop calling me, goodbye, and habe been NC. I feel nothing but sadness that we are having such a hard time letting go. Two intelligent adults and we’re struggling with degrading power games. I am so disappointed in myself, that these communiques sit so heavily with me. Why can’t I shake them off like a hound? It no longer feels right to be with him to fill the void in my own marriage. I wish he would get to this point, too. I see a new therapist this week, and my immediate goal is to get help getting out. I can do the heavy introspection next month. Just. Help. Me. Get. Out.
Natalie,
I just wanted to say thank you….
I bought you book last night for my Kindle. Very powerful stuff. I’m not finished with it yet, but processing what I have read so far. Being a writer too, I’m blown away by how simplistically you’re able to put into the written word, insights that are so invaluable to all of us in recovery, no matter from what type of relationshit. I WISH I was THAT good!
I have friends who are also writers and have had their books published. Each has their own style and contributions to offer the rest of us. In each book I read, I find a style or insight by the author that is uniquely theirs and differs from that of other writers. This is why I encourage survivors to read all kinds of books about abuse and recovery, not limited to just personality disorders. What I find refreshing about your book, is not just outlining the behaviors in simplistic, universal terms, but also the encouragement to focus on ourselves and our own hurts that we NEED to heal, otherwise, we’re back into ass clown land and I think if we are healing,we don’t want to go there again…this is what I DON’T see much of in what I have read, with the exception of a few: the focus on healing our own wounds. It’s important to understand the behaviors of assclowns so that we are careful going forward, but it’s meaningless without redefining and clarifying our boundaries, values, morals, principles…the emphasis on this that is provided in each post and in the book, is critical to recovery.
Thanks for you site, the privilege to be here and the blessings I’m receiving from your writing, and the comments of others here who are intelligent, well spoken, articulate and insightful. Lots of good writing potential with some of those that comment too!
Blessings.
Hey Guys
Today, One year after breaking up with Mr too busy, too self important to spend time with me.. I ask myself (or God): how can someone be so mean , so insensitive ..as to continue his fairy tale with the woman I suspect he was cheating on me with ..thats the closure I want to have:how does he get to sleep at night, without any sense of guilt?
WHAT WAS SO WRONG ABOUT ME THAT MAKES HIM THING IT IS TOTALLY RIGHT TO BE IN A VERY SERIOUS RELATIONSHIP WITH THE WOMAN HE DUMPED ME TO BE WITH? ..
I had a small debrief with him 7 months ago, he saied she didnt want to be a serious relationship (yeah right); she is fun, outgoing and so nice to him
..I am too demanding , too serious
Yes, that’s another reason not to seek closure from them. They’ll just say any old shit and lies and probably suggest that it’s you. That, literally, adds insult to injury.
“it’s not me, it’s you.”
No actually it IS you.
I love this site and I really appreciate all the posts and the responses.
I was in an unhealthy relationship for over 3 years. I was the one that broke up many times in the duration of an entire year because I was so fed up but I was hoping ‘hed change.’ He was very abusive and while I was with him I did hoops and lied to myself about the abuse. He has called me a bitch in public, private, has thrown water at me (this is because i slept in another room due to being uncomfortable sleeping with him at night), has broken my stuff, and the last incident was him throwing my bag over a roof because he claimed I was cheating on him. Ugh I remember being in the same room with him and hating his guts. When I broke up with him (one of the last times) I even imagined being at peace because it meant I would no longer be with him. This on top of all the financial irresponsibilities became so much for me to deal with.
I gave him so much power put him on a pedestal because of what he was about. We had some good times, but largely after a year of being together the control, the manipulation was too much to bear.
When we broke up it took him a week to get with someone else (someone I had asked him about and he denied and claimed that i was jealous.) To some extent I know this is crazy but its like he did it on purpose to see me hurt. He blasted it all over facebook and I frankly felt so hurt and embarassed.
I have done Nat’s no contact and I have not emailed called etc since that time. I am very proud of myself. He has emailed me many times, the last two emails asking if its really over and if we can be together.
I dont know his new gf knows about all of this. But I cant help her out either. She has to figure it out for herself. I kinda made a mistake and hit her up on fb and told her we had unprotected sex three days before their new relationship on fb and she blocked me. I think I was really angry also at her bc she knows how I am and that we were both coming out of a realationship.
But my solidarity is with women at the end. He is an asshole and I have to realize that he was an asshole when we were together. Initially I wanted closure. But I cant get that from him since he is such an emotional hot mess.
I am still dealing with all of my anger at putting up with his abuse (its like how can such a strong woman as myself allow such an asshole to abuse me) and also the embarassment I feel that he has a new gf (we have so many common friends)
What have you guys done that you find helps? I do a lot of meditation, yoga etc but still dealing with my emotions.
Also what has helped me is journaling, making a list of all the things that are positive that I want to do and focusing on all the things day to day that make me happy.
I have blocked him in every which way (social media) and force myself to not look at the trash box for emails.
My constant reminder is: dont ever look back; draw new boundaries and love myself.
TYI.. I agree, I have him blocked in every which way possible and it is the only way to move forward and never look back.. It empowers me in a way to know it was/is my choice to block him not his..And yes learn to love yourself for the wonderful person you are 🙂
Closure is something that I think we all might really need at some level, it’s just that we are all wired a bit differently.
Some people are just able to say “time to move one” and just do. Others are more sensitive, introspective, and hurt. A lot probably depends on how a relationship ended.
All this being said, no matter how different we might be, and how different each circumstance might be, it’s probably good for each of us to seek some level of closure that is enough for us to move on.
But we need to make a decision to work hard to get to that point of moving on. If we let time simply take its course, it can take inordinate time – by which, we have wasted too many months or years. If we consciously work hard to get an acceptable level of closure and then choose to move on, we don’t have to waste those months or years and can enjoy them.
It’s been hard for me to process the loss of a friend, who doesn’t want to speak to me. I’ve already tried to talk to her by calling her and leaving a message and I also showed up at her work (she wasn’t there). I feel embarrassed but also very bad about the rejection. It is painful and somehow I want that closure because I still can’t understand her reasons. I need to debrief myself and move on.
I know the mm will never give me closure because he wants to keep me as an option.
I continue to let him reel me in and then reject me. After ignoring his texts all last weekend. I come into work mon and as he’s leaving he asks if he can have a hug,I say no and he gives me that hurt look and I relent and say ok. He hugs me then kisses me really quick. I say wait u can’t just do that and leave. He starts to give me a real kiss then says “hold on I’ll be right back”. He comes back but doesn’t walk into the office and says “I’m gonna go ahead and go.” Talk about rejection. Unfortunately I lost it. I told him I was sick of him playing with my emotions, to stay away from me. He said that wasn’t what he was doing. Anyway he left. I broke down crying at work. Luckily no one was here. I got a text from him that night saying he was sorry and he wanted me to know that he wasn’t the selfish, manipulative person I thought he was. That most of the time he felt like a scared, little boy filled with confusion trying to find his place in life. I didn’t respond. Did not speak to him at all the next day. He has sent a couple of texts since then. Just trying to chit chat. Then yesterday he actually tried to call me. He rarely calls, usually texts. Of course I get my hopes up that maybe he really wants to make things right. But no I get the voicemail he’s wanting me to work for him last night. Really? After what he did Monday he wants me to do him a favor. I didn’t call back. He tried to call me 5 times.
Why do I still care? Why have I been sitting here at work thinking about the good times we had here? I get so mad at myself. What does he have to do to finally make me lose all feeling for him?
Ms O
It doesn’t really work like that unfortunately. You don’t lose feelings for them while you’re with them, thus making it easy to detach.
You have to detach in spite of the feelings and THEN the feelings for them will die. If you’re waiting to stop feeling for him while you’re still in
contact you will stay stuck for ever.
There isn’t a painless way out; you have to trust in the process.
Have you considered getting another job and moving out of the area?
Right on! I keep establishing that when people say “I need X in order to be able to do Y”, it is usually the other way round, they need Y in order to be able to do X. You don’t need closure in order to move on, you need to move on in order to get closure. You don’t need for the feelings to quiten in order to detach, you need to detach in order for the feelings to quieten!
This reminds me of a great quote I once heard: “You don’t think yourself into a new way of living – you live yourself into a new way of thinking.” Just sitting and stewing and trying to change your thoughts and emotions first in order to move on doesn’t work – taking action will!
SbW,
Thank you for sharing, “You don’t think yourself into a new way of living – you live yourself into a new way of thinking.”
I needed that. Very hopeful.
🙂
Option,
Can you start looking for another job?
This will never change as long as he is married, and you know you would not be able to trust him. Ever!
I would change your number, or block. ASAP! Please don’t continue to do this to yourself!
Hi Ms O.
I read your post and my jaw dropped because I could have written an identical scenario. Mine was not married but emotionally unavailable. Just like you though, I work with him. I ended things with him about three weeks ago.
Interestingly, they say the same things. They never see themselves as being in the wrong and always have an excuse. You need to know that it doesn’t matter what they say or what they think. What matters is what is acceptable to you and what your boundaries are. You have done so well and come so far to have ended contact with him. The rest is going to be uphill from here. All that sadness you feel, that will pass. I sat and thought about all the good times and felt a deep gut wrenching sadness too. But I also remembered all the times I felt unloved, unattractive, unwanted, stressed, miserable, panicky, anxious etc etc. You deserve more from life. You deserve to be happy. Good luck.
Ms Option: Tough love here; seriously why are you choosing to hug and kiss a mm who you know has jerked you around. It is not just because he makes you feel guilty. You are choosing to stay in stuck; you are like the dieter who holds a Big Mac and says “What can it do to make me not want it?”
This is senseless; you are going to end up in a psyche ward if you continue working with this man, get another job please before you end up even worse off then you are….
here’s where cc turns into a bitch – natalie, i can understand if you don’t publish this:
miss option –
i’m not perfect, i know i’ve made the same mistake over and over until i learned to stop. but, i’m sorry, your situation is RIDICULOUS. do we really have to go through this again again again? i’ve ranted to you in this space before – if i recall, we’ve gone 3 rounds. nothing we say seems to make any difference with you.
…if i’m sick to death of this when all i have to do is read your complaints from time to time, i cannot imagine how you’re NOT sick of it when you live it EVERY DAY. i swear, i see your comment on BR and i want to barf up my lunch.
YOU CANNOT WAIT FOR HIM TO CROSS SOME FINAL LINE IN THE SAND WITH YOU. YOU’RE OUT OF LINES. YOU RAN OUT OF THEM A LONG TIME AGO. YOU ARE BOUNDARY-LESS.
a long time ago, i suggested you change your BR handle, but now it is clear: THIS “OPTION” STATUS HAS BECOME YOUR ENTIRE IDENTITY.
YOU NEED TO PICK YOURSELF UP, CLOSE THE DOOR ON HIM, AND WALK AWAY.
if you want things to be different YOU must make them so. otherwise, this will go on forever.
DO YOU HEAR?!? FOREVER!!!!
IT. IS. UP. TO. YOU. noone else. YOU.
OUCH!!!
CC, is right, though!!!!
Yes, cc, so absolutely right. I went NC for months at a time twice before I allowed him back in for the last time. Now, the final words he, whomever was in his bed and his neighbors where I once lived will ever have heard from my mouth is “You f***king asshole” screamed repeatedly at the top of my lungs. This was just hours after he had left my bed for what turned out to be the last time.
I so knew better than to give him more chances but I still loved the sex/didn’t want to be alone/we still had fun/last chance saloon thinking/yada, yada. I lied to myself that after being in a relationship, I could handle our new undefined relationshit status. I had been working on giving myself closure before and wish I had stuck by my own best interests better and sooner. Ms. O, do not wait until you lose whatever remaining shred of dignity and self-respect you have. Unbelievably, things can actually get worse…
He is sending me emails now saying things I wanted to hear back when but I know it’s BS now and I will not reply. I would not have chosen to end a 7 year r/s the way I did and now, over 6 months of NC later, I could have a civil conversation with him but why? So he can think if I’ll talk to him it means he’s not such a bad guy and I’m still an option? Pffft! My closure is NC and not engaging with anyone who would ever think of me or treat me as an option. End of.
Ms. Option, your post reminds me of a therapy session I had years ago when I first began to deal with my addiction to men, with one particular man I refer to as “My great obsession”, still to this day. My therapist was trying to encourage me to not have anymore contact with him, to which I said to her, “Well, what do I do if comes knocking at my door again?” She said to me, “It sounds as if you don’t believe you have any control in the matter”. That was a light bulb moment for me! I honestly did not see that I had a CHOICE, that I had control. I did not have to answer that door, and even if I did, I did not have to let him in. It was truly a revelation for me as well as a turning point in my recovery. Ms. Option, you DO have other options, you do have control.
I’ve been ruminating and ruminating on trying to get closure on why my ex and I didn’t work out. I didn’t absorb all of the blame (this time). This is why I did the breaking up. I saw into my future and saw a bleak picture, riddled with his binge drinking and my distrust. I didn’t want that for myself anymore. Our dalliance lasted 3 months. It’s been 8 months since the break up and me initiating no contact. I still hurt. I’ll never know exactly why my ex wanted his ex over me, why he drank, why he raised my hopes only to crush them, why he was so wounded. He’s not me. I’ll never know.
But the deeper issues I’m uncovering are these: I’ll never know exactly why or how the doctor split my head open at birth, I’ll never get the full truth as to my father’s whereabouts when I was born or why he left my mother and I when I was a baby, or what made my mother schizophrenic, or how she could, at nine months, leave me with my grandmother and never come back, or how my grandmother could turn around a couple of years later and send me to live in a house of horrors with my aunt and my aunt’s husband, or why my aunt’s husband would torture and molest me as a toddler, or why my father would yell and hit me or why my step mother hated me and showed it every sneaky chance she could get. And I’ll never know exactly what triggered my mother to finally take her own life.
I’ll never fully figure out the answers to the whys. I do know I am a worthwhile person, though. I was a beautiful child and I have value as a human being. I am NOT the bad things that have happened to me.
Jennifer, I wept reading your message.My heart goes out to you. I don’t know you but I have no doubt you were a beautiful child as you are now, and that you do have value and you are NOT the bad things that happened to you. enormous hugs (((Jennifer))
Jennifer honey, please talk to someone about it, you need a closure of your very painful childhood:( It’s hard to even imagine what you went through… I was molested by my Mum’s friend when I was 11-12, and trust me it was horrendous and I have issues with trust. I never trusted men 100% and I never will. Please cut contact with your past: your horrible relatives, ex boyfriend, start afresh with help of psychologist…2013 will be our turning point for good Jennifer, please believe me. Lets start together. Hugs from me xxx
I just cried reading your post Jennifer, and so cannot even imagine what you went through. You sound such a beautiful person, and aware of what you need to do to heal. Great progress breaking up with the guy and so quickly. Just wanted to send you lots of love, there’s definitely a happy future for you honey xxxx
jennifer-
spot on, honey. if you’d like hugs, you can have an endless supply from me.
Closure came for me when I was, finally, willing to take a look at my part in the relationship, to stop looking at myself as the victim. Where was i selfish, self-centered, dishonest??? What decisions did I make that put me in a position to be hurt (like ignoring red flags)? Hard as it was to look at, the truth was that I was doing the same thing to him that I was accusing him of doing to me, like, playing games, using him to boost my ego, using him for attention, to name a few. Truth is I was acting like an assclown too. Truth is I am an EU, sometimes ASSCLOWN, just like him. The truth shall set you free, free to start working on yourself.
Dear recoveringloveaddict, TTMK and all
I was with my partner for over four years and I ignored so much. I put him on the highest of pedestals. He was good, he was kind, he was funny, we had a cosy, loving, intimate relationship, and that was the side of the relationship I ‘hilighted’ if you like.
The other side was he was a binge drinking, someone that could leave us for days while he had a good time, he lied a lot, I didn’t really trust him, he drove while drunk(something I detest) and he was an embarrassment and abusive (not physically) in
drink. I blinded myself to this because I loved him but somehow feel responsible as I enabled him to be this person.
Then one morning he arrived home after been out the night before and said he didn’t want me or our family life anymore. I couldn’t understand it at all, I had pandered to him for years and forgiven him so many times and here he was telling ME he wanted out.
I then heard he was with someone else almost instantly after the break up and things started to trigger in my head. Was he with this person before etc. There were so many questions revolving around this woman that I felt I could never have full closure but after reading yours and other posts, I think that it is time I just let it go. I may never know the truth and in anycase, I can’t undo the past, I can analyse and go through it with a fine tooth comb but I can’t change it.
It has been 8 weeks to the day and I’m still up and down. I had 3 good days this week and today isn’t too bad so far!. He will be calling shortly to return our son and I will smile and hold my head up high. Oh to be able to have no contact at all. But I’m sticking to just contacting regarding the baba and that’s about all I can do.
Linda, “Good, kind, loving”??? He sounds anything BUT good, kind, and loving. He PRETENDED to be those things.The REAL him is a selfish, self-centered, liar and a drunk. Sorry, but, I’m just keeping it real. A good, kind, loving person would not lie, leave for days and worry you, or be abusive. Read some articles about Assclown men and their behavior on this website and write down the ones he exhibits so you can see him for who he is, not the fantasy man you think he is.
Hi recovering….
Initially, he was all those things but he did change. But as you point out, and you are not the first, he eventually showed his true self… it still hurts :'( and it is humiliating but I have to rise above all that though I am Not having such a good day today.
I am new to the site and it has helped me so much in the last week or so. Where do I find this AC stuff? Maybe it will give my spirits a lift!
Kind regards
Linda,
Hang in there…I am new to Natalie’s site too.
I also had a binge drinking EU, who had girls all over town, only i was the last to know.
I felt so humiliated until I realized HE is the one who should be humiliated, a grown man carrying on with NO regard no honor. You have no reason to feel humiliated. You believed his charming side, the one that lured you in for the first place, and you were hopeful. You had courage. Dont beat yourself up.
Hope you have a better day today!
Amber
Linda… Near the top of this page you will see “list of post” hit that and it will take to Nat’s post.. I pick & choose which ones to read as per my frame of mind at any given time.. Stay strong and take one day at a time…
Linda, just click on Natalie’s list of post at the top of her website or type “assclown” in the search bar. I am sorry you are hurting. What hurt the most for me was that I felt like such a fool and that I felt so disposable. I was just another member of his harem, no one special. Chances are you were a member of his harem too. I didn’t know there were others. Just keep coming back to this website and read Natalie’s postings and her books. Most of all, work on yourself. It wasn’t by accident that you wound up with that guy. You are not his victim, you are his partner in crime, you just don’t know it.
Thanks all for your comments, advice and kind words. Recovering, what do you mean by ‘You are not his victim, you are his partner in crime, you just don’t know it’…….
Kind regards
Linda
I know the question was addressed to recovering but I will comment. I watched a series of women marry and engage in relationships with my alcoholic father so I’ve seen how that goes down. They knew he was an alcoholic, it was always plain to see, but they chose to “highlight” the good parts and turn a blind eye to the bad )alcoholism). Only where there’s a problem like that it isn’t a little flaw like being untidy it poisons everything ultimately. They were in denial. Also drunk driving is serious criminal behaviour. Some might say that your Duty was to prevent him and if you couldnt do that to report him, because he is putting the lives of innocent people at risk. I realise that is a very hard thing to do, but if he ever had killed, for example, a child, how would you have been able to look it’s mother in the eye knowing that you could have prevented it?
Linda, we play the game with them. We give them attention, we get it back (even if it negative); we feed their egos, they feed ours; they chase us, we chase them. I quit being his “partner” when I went “No Contact”. I made the decision to go NC because I couldn’t stand the pain any longer.
RLA… Sometimes it takes being away from them, going NC, then you look back & realize what was going on. I had suspicions and the information was right in front of my face for a long time but I couldnt piece it all altogether. I had many ,many ah-ha moments after reading Nat’s book & finding this blog. Once you put the pieces of the puzzle together its a feeling of relief/peace. For me anyway.
He just wasnt that special after all… I get that now !!
Linda, please understand that you are not responsible “to enable him to be this person”. He was and is that person (liar and alcoholic) all by himself. He makes his own choices, you don`t pour alcohol down his throat and make him lie. Having had a relationship with an alcoholic I can assure you that if you voiced your protest at his drinking and resulting behaviour and how it affected the relationship ( where and with whom was he when he played away for days, no wonder you didn`t trust him) it wouldn`t have changed a thing. Well, it didn`t when I protested because drinking was the most important thing in his life. You need to separate your stuff from his stuff. What you are responsible for is your own denial of the situation and the safety of your son. He has done you a favour by going off with someone else because now you are forced to take stock. It took me ages to accept something that is obvious now- there is no way to have a mutual relationship with love, trust, care and respect with any addict, and I don`t envy you having to be in contact with him because of your child. I don`t think you should necessarily concentrate on smiling though while holding your head up high, you should make sure your child is safe while with him and now take a stand and not skirt around his drinking and driving. I don`t know if I would let your son in the car with this man.
Lynda,
I also need to add, that the other posters are right in saying he is a assclown. Once i realised that my ex had a problem with alcohol, and for ages after I broke up with him I tried to reason away and explain his behaviour with his alcohol issue. Came to the conclusion he was both an assclown and an alcoholic and the two seem to go together often. none of the reasoning away I did made it any different, he was what he was and I didn`t trust him and that relationship had no place in my life. Unfortunately he is in your sons life and you need to make a stand for your child.
Sushi
If someone is setting out to drive off while clearly drunk, it is your responsibility to phone the police just as much as if they were setting off with a loaded shotgun with the stated intention of shooting someone. Shrugging your shoulders and saying it’s not my fault is just not good enough.
Mymble,
I think you misunderstood or I was`t very clear. I said that it`s not her fault that he drinks, because it isn`t.
His drinking IS still an issue for her because he spends time without Linda with the son- as per her post. That`s why I said I would not let my child get in the car with him and she can`t tolerate/ skirt around the issue as she is responsible for the safety of the child.
Sushi
Sorry I misunderstood.
Alcohol is a bit of a trigger for me. You are actually so lucky to be shot of the alcoholic. If you could see my father now…he had so much talent and vitality and it’s all gone now, his mind and his body are wrecked by years of abuse. He has no friends .so strange, he was always popular and loved but no one can put up with him. He has little money, despite years of high earnings and high living. His present wife is trying to offload responsibility for him onto my brother and I but he lives on the other side of the
world and what we can do is limited by that. Also to be honest he abandoned us when we were children and has never much bothered so I don’t feel that I owe it to him to ruin my own life trying to save someone who cannot and will not save himself. Though I am really sorry for him. He is so miserable and frightened. I have had sad dreams about him. I know I’m not the only one who posts here that has an alcoholic parent.
That’s how they end up.
Thanks yet again for all your comments and welcome advice.
Just to clarify, this man drove while under the influence when he was out on his binges. He would either not come home at all or arrive here drunk behind the wheel(so i would not know he was doing it unless he did come home). I, under no circumstances, condoned this. In fact, I split up with him several times over it (yes, I know, another red flag – you are probably all beginning to think I am colour blind).
If I so much as got a whiff of alchohol off him when he is collecting my son, he would not get him. He takes my son to his mothers, where he stays when he is not with the other woman (ironically, she is a policewoman) and his mam knows the score and would not let her grandson get into the car if he was drinking.
Sushi, how true your comments ‘there is no way to have a mutual relationship with love, trust, care and respect with any addict, and I don`t envy you having to be in contact with him because of your child’. It is so difficult, the reason I smile and keep my head up is to keep going – I am sick of the pain. I have to get stronger, for my sake and the sake of my beautiful children.
Last night helped a little, I had to rush the little man into the oncall doc at 5am. He had an asthma attack. I texted him and to be honest, expected him to meet me there. However, as the ‘policewoman’ was obviously off duty, i got the reply – “oh, is he ok, not a lot i can do for YA, sorry”…. charming – sums it all up really!
Thanks again guys, have to go and tend to the sick baba.
Kindest regards. L x
Linda,
I hope your son feels better and you got some rest!
Selective color blindness – we`ve all been there, they will show you all there is to see about them when you are eventually prepared to look, and you are.Yes, I don`t envy you because it`s a fine balancing act to give your child both parents and defend them from whatever is wrong. Sometimes very tricky, sometimes mutualy exclusive. Take care, you sound like a strong person.x
Mymble,
you are right, I am extremely lucky to be shot of him, although it took me a long time to realise this. Despite a low self esteem ( not so low now) I seemed to have a safety cut out device built into me. I didn`t want that around my children. I`ve seen a young family on a tube once, with two small children, on a Sunday afternoon. Both parents were drunk and the woman was slurring her speach and was literally falling over. People were staring at them and the little girl, maybe 5-6 years old held her arm protectively over her mothers lap, staring back at people like a frightened little animal but defending. Hearbreaking.Tragedy in still frame.
recovering amen to that! I also no longer see the biggest azzclown I ever dated as evil. I see where I was an eu/ac too, he taught me more about myself and my unhealthy actions than anyone I’ve ever dated. I dont think anything bad about him anymore and sometimes I hope that he is doing well (but I dont contact him, its just in my heart and thats where its staying). The truth does set one free. My friend and I were out with her golf league on Friday and we were the last ones left along with one married guy and one single good looking player. The player was trying to suck me in but all my boundaries are in place along with the fact that I know his history (which never stopped me before). I looked around and there were lots of nice looking possibly eligible men and here we were appearing to be with these two guys. Usually I would think of them as bad and then feel guilty about it, but I just noted the unavailability and vowed not to be stuck in that position again. I even discussed it with my friend and she agreed.
I just wanted to thank you for your site. I found it by looking for resons as to why I’d been treated in a certain way and have found all the answers. All your posts could have been written about him! It was my first time with a EUM (I didn’t even know they existed) and I fell very hard. I was promised the earth, future faked and fast forwarded etc. and when he started withdrawing and eventually just dissapearing, I made excuses for his behaviour and even blamed myself. Knowing that these men do exist, that I’m not going crazy and that I’m not alone has helped me find closure (I haven’t got it from him and know that I never will)
It’s taken me months to move on but I’ve learnt a valuble lesson. You have to trust your instincts and you can’t rely on them for closure they won’t give it. You have to say he’s just not the person I thought he was and accept it. Thanks again
One thing I agree with Grace about is that we DO actually heal & move on from a history of abuse & that it’s not at all neccessary for people to even know about this.
For me, this was something I felt totally resolved about until events a little while back gave rise to the need to make police reports about things that happened decades ago. I actually wouldn’t have even bothered except I that felt the need to protect my son from someone I know to be exceptionally violent. In hindsight those reports ought to have been made at the time the offences ocurred, however, back then, I was too overwhelmed struggling as a child alone in the world, for my very survival to consider such a thing.
Since then though, I’ve always chosen NOT to disclose my abuse history to ANY of my partners. Why? Because I soon commenced extensive therapy, as a result of which, my life changed so radically, that what had happened to me as a child, became simply no longer relevent.
IF I’d met someone who proposed marriage, at that point, I may have made the disclosure, ONLY so they would know there was a murdered unborn child in my history, something I figure my HUSBAND, with whom I may have had more children, ought to know.
The only exception to this was that I did (regrettably) tell my deceased ex what was going on when the rapist contacted my son & I chose to report these matters to the police two years back now. I say regrettably because my deceased ex later made a terrible comment to me about this, in an effort to be deliberately hurtful. This only goes to show how RIGHT I was all these years to keep such a sensitive matter between myself, a professional therapist & one mentor in a self help context, for all these years. None of my friends know about my abuse history & why should they? Again, it’s simply not relevent!
In fact this issue has only arisen for me now due to the circumstances beyond my control, where the rapist suddenly tried to contact my son through a social networking site, after 26 yrs of us being totally untraceable (of course my son knew nothing of this either. Sadly for the sake of his own safety, he does now).
Yes it is an unpleasant thing to now be dealing with all over again, but once the court proceedings are over, no doubt I will return to my normal happy self & once again have no need to speak of these matters. It’s that I mind speaking about them, but I guess I’m a private person & some things are simply no-one elses business but my own (& if I speak of them it has been in therapy or survivor support groups I participated in decades ago, or here now, because suddenly it’s an issue again & relates to what other ppl are posting abt)
One thing I will add is this. Justice may take TIME to come around (in this case it will be 3 decades after the fact before it is served) but rest assured K, the terrible actions of others DO eventually bite them in the ass! Of that I am quite sure!
Oh & as for ‘closure’ with that violent murderous rapist, well I THOUGHT I had that DECADES ago. But no. It NOW sits in a nice big fat juicy file, complete with multiple witness statements supporting my account of what actually happened back then, at the specialist Child Sexual Offences Unit of the local police station!!! And I could not be happier for my little angel in heaven, who I know is watching mommy down here & saying, GO GET THAT PRICK now that you are STRONG ENOUGH & hit him with BOTH EFFIN BARRELLS!!!!!!!!!! ~Grinz~
I believe that the need for closure depends on each situation. More exactly, on whether you and the other person are also sharing other things apart from a failed relationship or relationship attempt. For example, I wouldn’t necessarily seek closure from a random guy I met by chance in a club a few weeks ago, and whom I only dated a couple of times, and whom I’m not likely to see again. But if me and that guy had a longer “history”, or are co-workers or university mates, or have mutual friends and acquaintances, and therefore are likely to meet again in the future, I think closure, and being honest to each-other about why things didn’t work out, is important. That way, we would avoid awkward situations or passive-aggressive behaviour.
Totally agree, Sandra81! Thats just my case, so I’m still having a hard time fighting my inner battles: I understand I shouldn’t be expecting any kind of closure from the guy, cause he hasn’t reciprocate any of my attempts to solve everything civil. And at the same time that stupid little voice in my head says: “but he has Aspergers, maybe he just doesn’t get that he is hurting you or doesn’t know what to do exactly”. Duhhh…I am actually tired of this-I live like that for 3 months now, so I’ve even decided to go to the therapist (though never thought I’ll need that). Any other normal girl would just say ” I don’t need a man who can’t deliver what I want a man to deliver for me in emotional sense” (actually, thats what my friends tell me), and I’m more like “why why why he wouldn’t just say smth, so I could be done with that” (though the silence itself is deathening)…
Teach
I also came from an extremely abusive background, I agree, it’s no ones business. What is important is that we both did the work to heal. I have only shared the worst with my ex and a man whom I thought at one time was going to marry me. My dad doesn’t even know the full details; he’s a sick man and that’s one closure thats never gonna happen. A lot of folks know something is amiss due to my complete lack of family ties. Some AC’s will use ones broken childhood as an excuse for their crap behavior saying we are damaged. What bull@#$%! We are strong kickass womyn who went thru the worst and came out of it intact. We are warriors. I hope there is no statute of limitations on rape where you are. Nail his a$$ to the wall!
“Some AC’s will use ones broken childhood as an excuse for their crap behavior saying we are damaged”
My ex dismissed it as my “drama bullsh*t” and accused me of lying. If he only knew what the hell I’ve been through.I never told him the full extent. But I don’t feel the need to justify myself to a lowlife like him. His opinion is worthless.
I had an ex ask about my being guarded and my childhood, I told him the very short version of neglect, emotional abuse, abandonment and dysfunction at the hands of my father. His response…” Oh, I thought it was worse than that, like you were sexually abused or something.” Wow.
Another ass ex said about my Father, “I’m sure your father had his reasons.” Ouch.
I will be very careful who I tell from now on about my childhood. It’s hard to explain to people you are involved with why you haven’t spoken to your father in over 15 years when you feel like YOU will pay for it later.
I’m so sorry, Teach, Miskwa, Malaise, and Selkie. I definitely know what it feels like to disclose private, sensitive information to someone who will use it against you. I think it can be good to share this stuff with the right person, though. But just wait until you know the person well, and disclose a little bit at a time, and assess their reactions. If they are supportive and caring, you can offer more. If they are dismissive or rude, that is a major red flag that this is someone you cannot let into your inner circle.
Selkie, what a loser your ex is…good riddance!!! You know when I told my ex about me being molested at the age of 11-12 (I was crying at that very moment), he did not even give me a hug(which I so badly needed!), just said: “I think you need to see someone and talk about it”…And I was stupid enough to carrying on seeing him, GOD! We all need our own CLOSURE from all these losers!!!
Selkie,
I’m vocal about my abuse, but in a way that helps others. As far as intimate relationships go, I no longer tell ANYONE about my abuse background until I’ve known them a long, LONG time. This would include a new man in my life. I don’t have one, choose not to have one, but all the same, I don’t owe anyone the deepest, most painful part of myself. I like knowing that I can choose when to share and when it’s safe. It’s not safe “just a few months” into a relationship, although that is not how it use to be. I had verbal bulimia for a long time. That came from my childhood. Tell all immediately, so that they know exactly what they’re dealing with. I labeled this as “Well, they know who I am, no surprises!” WRONG WRONG WRONG lol! What I did was give enough information to a predator to exploit.
I don’t throw caution to the wind anymore…I think you’re VERY wise to wait and I understand about “how do you explain that you haven’t spoken to your father in over 15 years”. If an AC said that, it would be a red flag, right?
The truth is, that it’s no one’s business. I don’t give up info anymore to anyone who has not first earned my trust over a LONG period of time. So far, as I’ve only been working on this with new friendships, it’s worked out very well.
malaise and selkie,
there is definitely a major assclown mould and they churn them out en masse… reading your posts brought memories that just made me so angry…
like when I told him a bit about my life, which contained abuse in childhood, death of my husband, my childs life threatening illness, difficult financial situation at the time….and he acused me of lying and said “nobody could be that unlucky, and I suppose you are going to tell me you managed all that and built a business too ” Yes, that`s actually exactly what I did.Do you know, this made me realise I`m so proud of who I am and what I have overcome including leaving that ass…e in the dust.
“Some AC’s will use ones broken childhood as an excuse for their crap behavior saying we are damaged.”
Yes that is very, very true! Be very careful who you tell these things to ladies!:(
Closure: the ever- elusive substance continually sought when trying to define or definitively end a “relations**t” with an EUM.
The red flags: forty- five ish, never been married, recurring work issues, huge ego, many gfs but never found *the ” right ONE”. classically handsome, metro- ish with slightly gay mannerisms…..
initally overlooked b/c I just wasn’t that interested, frankly.
He eventually wore me down. charming, funny, seemingly a person of “integrity” ( also a person with the now recognizable me-thinks-he-doth- protest- too much syndrome. why talk about how honest you are? what’s the need?)
adorable, confused, needy, always there…
until the tables turned and I began to need him. that was the beginning of things going awry.
This will be our second Christmas “together”- yes, all, I’ve read Nat’s wonderful post on It’s just Christmas…. it’s truly wonderful as are all of your stories and comments. Not wonderful in the sense that you’ve ( collectively) been involved with men who demeaned you, made you feel “less than” and hurt you, but wonderful in the sense of transparency, honesty and growth that are so evident, ss well as the support you give to one another.
I spent 20+ odd years in a loveless marriage with a blatantly verbally abusive AC who cheated on me, which I discovered very late into the marriage. The married women aren’t stupid or blind, just grieved, and perhaps wanting to hold things together for their children, or perhaps so beaten down, as I was, that they don’t believe they can make it on their own.
How did this charming Peter Pan ( the new version of the EUM- 2.0) morph into the things that my former husband was, granted on a smaller scale? Yes, some would say the universe- I say God- has me back in school until I learn the lessons of boundaries, self- respect, not settling for less than I deserve and not facilitating another’s ill treatment towards me. I do a bit of Florencing and am likely co- dependent. I keep returning to the dry well hoping it will cough up the few bottles of Evian that were initially offered to me in the beginning.
How does one get past this and get to the point of being able to do NC? Another blogger told me she just reached the point of knowing her feelings had changed for the EUM. I am getting there but it is a slow process. Are you all just pulling the plug and doing NC despite still being
attached to the guy? By the time I left my husband, I felt NOTHING. This is different. My heart is involved.
I know this is long and complex, like most of our stories. To those who took the time to read: thank you. If any of you have thoughts to share, i’d love to hear them. I keep beating myself up for not following through with NC.
Blessings to all.
p.
Speaking for myself Pandora, when I went NC I was still in love with the ex narc ( or certainly felt I was) so it was horrible. It still is. Every day. However, it is less horrible than feeling I was losing myself, losing my grip on reality. Making him more important than anything else in my life, like, erm, me. I went NC to save my very soul. Sounds dramatic but it is my truth. Yes it really hurt, but not as much as it was hurting me to stay in a relationshit where my value was being downgraded every single day. Please trust in the process. Sending you hugs.
pandora, it really is *that* simple: NC is the only way to go, ESPECIALLY if your heart is still involved. and no social media stalking or snooping of any kind.
the first few days hurt like hell. i seriously felt like i was going through the break up all over again. but then it gets better. and sometimes there’s a step back as it’s a healing process. and healing isn’t linear. after i went NC for the first time, i really started feeling a lot better after about 3 weeks. then i was stupid and broke it. don’t do that. trust me. it’s not just a minor slip up, no… you start from scratch again.
NC is hard but absolutely worth it. it removes you from the source of the pain, prevents you from getting more new pain and it gives you your power back. highly recommended.
Pandora – I just reached a point when I wasn’t deriving much joy from the attachment. I was frustrated the lack of growth and progress, and the constant circling over the same old ground. Is NC easy? No. It’s tiny, tiny decisions you make every day in order to recoup your balance and dignity and ultimately, learn what attracted you and kept you there. You are describing this man in a way that says you have already moved back and are evaluating/observing. You sound slightly repulsed by him and your own inability to let go. How bad do you have to feel about yourself before you end it? That’s the question.
Pandora,
It was very difficult, as I was very much in love with the ex, but I had to love myself more.
I had to go NC, as I knew it would never go anywhere. I was sick of the runaround, indecision and nonsense. There was no future with this man, and decided I had to pull the plug for my sanity. I had already done myself a HUGE disservice by allowing myself to be be disrespected and allowing my self esteem to be whittled away.
If you know there’s no future, please don’t put off the inevitable, as you will hurt yourself even more. Remember, you had a life before this guy.
Allison, thank you so much for your comment. That’s how I feel right NOW, I know that my current AC IS no good for me, that I am/was wasting my time…I also mentally and physically tired, I just want to hide that no one can find me:(
Star,
NC gives you so much clarity.
Ask yourself, what you are gaining by staying connected.
Once you remove yourself from the situation, you are able to get real with your self.
Time for some peace, and a boost to the self esteem for 2013. Cut ties!
Thank you honey!!! You know my ex AC contacted me yet again, I could not believe it! SO I am changing my number TODAY so “the sexual object” (as I call myself) is not going to be available. I am cutting ties as you said, Allison! Closure means closure!
Oops, im new to these blog boards…i replied to your insightful and home-hitting response…
i just replied in the wrong spot.
Scroll down.
: )
Dear Pandora,
Just like you I tried to wait for a time when I’d just “had enough” and could pull the plug. That time never really comes. We have an amazing capability for making excuses for men who are just not worth it.
I left the EUM in my life when I had just told him the previous night why i loved him (red flags here: I had to think hard to find the reasons beyond he was gorgeous, charming and funny when he wanted to be). Our fight started because he verbally abused me for the millionth time and looked at me like I was the dirt beneath his shoe. Through some divine intervention, I found the strength to end it and walk away. Every day is hard but it gets easier and now I have the pleasure of peace and knowing that the people I allow to get close to me are good people who love me. That is truly priceless.
Newbie,
I was one of those who waited until it got so bad, I had two choices, stay and take more extreme abuse, or walk away with what was left of my dignity. I wish I had not waited for the worse to happen, because guess what? It can. Women DIE waiting for the “worse” to happen and then it’s too late. Whether she dies from the stress or he kills her, this ultimately will be the end result sometimes in “waiting for the worse” to happen. I’m very, VERY lucky to be alive..
This is such a great post.. Someone just recently said to me “how can you shut your feelings off for someone you were with for several years? Isn’t that kind of cold-hearted?”. I told this person that no, I didnt think it was cold hearted… How could I keep feeling or thinking about a person who treated me in a less than manner, and played manipulative mind games (typical AC behavior)? I didn’t need to have a ‘talk’ w the ex
in order to have ‘closure’, I knew that I deserved better, that he was playing me for a very long time, and that after all that time, no… It wasn’t all my fault. Definately not. There were a few things I felt badly about after the break up… And none were about him. It was about me. Why did I put up with so much BS? How did I not realize it really wasn’t ‘love’?
I could’ve also seen it as ‘rejection’ about me not being good enough when he overlapped. He did reject me, but not because I wasn’t good enough… It was because I was more than good enough, I wasn’t accepting crumbs anymore, excuses, didn’t buy the future faking. Basically, I did a 180.. Im happy to say, I got the closure all on my own :). Flush!!
Wow! This entry could not have been written at a better time.
I have been struggling with the betrayal from EU/AC, I found more deceit/lies/ and finally ended this 2 year roller coaster, but found myself desperate for him to tell me WHY. Why after all of his WORDS about how much he loved me…he could betray me again, for more frivolous BS…
I finally realize, the wanting him to provide me with closure was nothing more than postponing the inevitable…it was and is time to self preserve, self love, and learn. Thank you for your amazing clarity and insight.
I really like this post. I had a great deal of trouble letting go of a man after the relationship started well then I decided it could only be casual due to his behaviour – by casual I really meant I shouldn’t be near him cause he’s treating me like someone without much value but by calling it casual I can justify continuing to see him and continue to hope that he will go back to ‘wanting’ me. I kept having ‘words’ with him hoping that this time I would feel ok about the end of the actual relationship – and yet I never did so the whole thing felt unresolved and it really bugged me. I finally (3 years later) just gave up on it feeling resolved and stopped the casual thing with him too which feels much better. However reading this I realise that I was wanting to blame him for everything because I was ashamed of how I was grateful to be involved n his life in even such a meagre way and let him completely devalue my worth. I felt that I behaved like someone I wasn’t and I lost respect for myself and he did too. The thing is whilst he was very happy to let me devalue myself and put him on a pedastal and that makes me angry, the fact that I did it – it was my fault my choice not his, I have to take responsibility for that – I willingly went along with (and was grateful for) the next to nothing that he offered and I wanted to believe it meant something so I did! I just have to accept that there is no undoing the choices I made now that I have wised up and the only thing I can do is be the person I wished I was then, now. I can never erase the past and I can never expect him to see my past behaviour differently just because I am now embarrassed about it and wish I hadn’t clung to him like he was so special for so long. I am mortified now but I did it! Plus he will probably always feel ‘higher status’ than me now and I am stuck with that too cause I acted like he had more value than me and while its not true he sure was keen to believe it!
Well said Astrid. I’m still working on giving myself closure for this, too. “You teach people how to treat you.” I taught the wrong lesson and reaped the wrong behavior and relationshit.
Hi, Pandora!!!!
I think I was dating the man you are speaking of…exactly to a tee!!! 47, never married, constant work issues/job changing every couple of years, metro-sexual-esque. You are so talking about the same man, a true PeterPan/eternal narcissist.
He told me I was ‘the ONE’…then he collected pretty female girls (secretly) like Baseball card collectors’ do cards…lying to my face the whole time…
I think if we just try to realize how empty these boys are, how much external validation they need…we will realize they are incapable of actual love and it would take 5 of us to even come close to sating them(and then it would only be until the next pretty girl glanced their way)…they just used us to provide constant boosts for their fractured egos and sense of self…
I am only in the first week of NC, but Natalie’s blog has helped me the most. So empowering to realize and scream ” I DESERVED MORE, YOU DONT GET ME AGAIN< AC! and of course, I like to add 'sad little empty boy'. Feel bad for him, but happy for the pain you are sparing yourself, your future. Hurt now, so tomorrow can be yours.
Thanks for your post, Pandora!
You dont by chance live in Nevada ; )
Miskwa. You got it in one. These are offences against a CHILD so it is the police laying charges not me. Limitation periods can be set aside anyway but I think you might be right in that they don’t apply to this case. It’s very complex but in the hands of the police & my legal team. I leave it with them. The less involved I am in that side of it the better. The comment by your ex AC sounds awful & is along similar lines to what was said by my deceased ex. I had to laugh. If I’m so ‘damaged’ how is it exactly that that I’ve spent 22 yrs of my life being a tee total, educated myself (& continuing to do so. good news on this btw. uni has ‘kept’ me to rejoin when well enough’ & permission to do only a 1 or 2 subjects pr yr to accommodate my new ‘disabled’ status until completion!!), have bought a home for myself & my son on my own, have a successful professional career spanning over 2 decades behind me, & no history of dysfunctional r.ships as an adult (other than the deceased ex whom I was not in a fully fledged r.ship with b.c of his ‘issues’ but rather encouraged to seek help)?! I’m FAR from perfect by a LONG shot but this guy was deluded! LOL Damned straight we are strong kick ass womyn!!!! I can feel your strength leaping off the screen through cyberspace!!!!!
Re family it’s an interesting point you make. I’m sorry to hear yrs was so abusive you had to cut off completely, but I do understand. Sometimes this is our only option & what is best for us. It sounds like you have made the right decision for you & I commend you for that. I know well, the pain & anguish of such a big decision. Our peace of mind & safety must come first though..x
I’ve had more contact with my family (mostly with my sis, but some with 2 aunts also) during this period of illness than I normally would & I now find I need to roll it back. Way, way back. They are good ppl in their own way (ie not criminally inclined, addicts, alcoholics etc) but they are so dysfunctional, that to me at least, it sticks out a mile. It’s in an intermeshed co-dependent way that makes my skin crawl. Literally. Ugh.
I’ve decided to excuse myself from xmas with any of them. Moreover, I’m going to be HONEST as to why. I will simply say that I’ve made MANY efforts to visit THEM over the years but that no-one has visited at all since I’ve been ill, even when I’ve been ill & asked for & really NEEDED help & that thus, I just don’t feel inclined to put my health on the line, by struggling to make the big effort to go to see them for xmas (driving for me to get there is difficult).
I will also let them know though, that if they would like to make the effort to come & visit ME instead, perhaps AFTER xmas, when all the hoo haa has died down, they will be most welcome.
It will be interesting to see how THAT goes down!!!!! LOL 😉
Sandra81 and others
Yep, it is much harder to deal with a lack of closure when you’ve known the person for a long time and especially if the person is someone you have to deal with often. I had a person disappear after knowing him for two years in the midst of an alledged medical crisis. One night he was expressing how grateful he was that I was in his life and he evaporated the following weekend. He owned a business that I patronize so complete NC wasn’t possible. I’ve known at work AC for 6 years, he pursued me for 2. No closure. His current gf is a friend of mine who has no idea that the guy I told her about that hurt and humiliated me so badly is him though I suspect he has said something derogatory as she no longer asks why we can’t get together after meetings. Good. I am avoiding college social functions entirely, no longer organizing after work get togethers except for a select group of folks. A previous poster stated that those of us that become involved with colleagues are dumb. You are right. This whole mess is my fault. Early on, I shouldve quit the job rather than try and give the community a chance and rather than grow to love the one person who I could actually connect with on many levels, I shouldve given up. One of Miskwas resolutions for 2013 is to deliberately only date men that do live far away; most on line guys arent going to work out anyway and closure isn’t an issue if you barely know the dude or he is someone you have little chance of ever running into again. Even seeing someone who didn’t work out from the next town over (39 miles ) is a problem and yep, I DID give him closure in as kind of a way I could. A lot of stuff about OW/MM issues on this post; if you KNOW he is married/attached, game over NOW. However, not everyone is honest about their situation; marrieds are probably easier to suss out, especially electronically, but attacheds are a lot more difficult. Obviously, in either case it’s game over from that point forward, but the OW/OM has invested in a lot emotionally and it is really hard to get over.
Natalie, this part of your post truly spoke to me. I used to do the Ph.D in ruminating. Now I’m striving to be the one who simply walks away. That line about seeing yourself as a manifestation of other people’s behaviour is brilliant. Yes, that was me. Thank you for saying it so succinctly.
“I know people who walk away and move on after being treated in a less-than manner and I know people who walk away and then blame themselves and get a Ph.D in ruminating on another person and blame absorbing. The difference? The former doesn’t see themselves as a manifestation of other people’s behaviour. They own their own and let others own theirs for the sake of their emotional peace.”
This post really made me think about my ex husband. I’ve been stuck for a long time, blaming myself and missing him and our marriage instead of moving on completely. It’s been over 3 years, hes engaged to be married to someone else and yet I still pine for him. I should be well beyond this, but sadly, I haven’t allowed myself to. Like Nat says in this post, I have made it my “purpose” to kind of torture myself over mistakes I made. I have been bewildered on how a 12 yr relationship could end quite abruptly and he was just GONE emotionally without looking back it seemed. I blame myself for making a horrible mistake…I let myself get involved briefly with someone else when I was lonely in the marriage. I have punished myself for years over it. I never told him about it and in the end, it was he was who seemed to want out of the marriage. He didn’t seem to really accept my children (his step children) and he didn’t seem to care that I wasn’t sleeping in bed with him anymore for about a year. Our relationship from the START was extremely tumultuous and complicated. But I really thought that the marriage would last because we had been to a lot of counseling and there were good years in fact. I know logically, that we both came to the table with our part in this…he’s an alcoholic and can be quite cold and not affectionate and there were plenty of other things, I enabled, trying to please all the time, trying to smooth things over, make excuses for him, defend my kids to him, etc etc. I have tons of material to look back on and see that it wasn’t healthy. Yet…I have been stuck. In the end, our communication was sparse. It just fell apart quickly without much to say to each other. I gave him an out and he took it and ran. I thought we would be together again but a couple of weeks later, his ring was off and that was it. And so I supposed I’ve been wondering, wanting the closure, trying to make it my purpose even though he is now committed to someone else. We have a young child together and so I have to see him frequently. That sure doesn’t help. I will read this article again and perhaps at this point, give myself permission to just move the F on for blood sake! It’s time!
These comments are SO helpful for me.
In my case, even though I am the one who initiated the breakup, and have stayed NC for lo these 8 months, I am still struggling. From early on I realized that I would have to reach closure on my own and that any attempt to “clear the air” between us would be fruitless, because my ex EUM lacks the clarity and honesty– and desire — to come to any closure with me. As Natalie so helpfully wrote somewhere, some people just don’t “do” closure.
And, hell, he’s moved on! In a big way! He’s married already! Yes, I am the one whose ex got engaged 3 weeks after the breakup and married shortly after that– blah blah blah. And yes, I would like to know how in HELL anyone can do that!!!!! And he didn’t even want to break up! he just wanted the option to pursue other women! But we were broken up when he got engaged, and I initiated the break up, so I think I need to just let it go. My therapist disagrees, and says he owes me an explanation, but I am just not going to chase that particular rabbit.
Was I in a loving relationship with a crazy person who (usually?)seemed grounded and solid? Or a cheater who (initially) seemed to care about me very much? Or..? I don’t think the answer will help much.
Nevertheless, even knowing I needed to work on moving on and creating closure for myself, my heart took a long time to catch up with my head, despite my best efforts. I am only just now feeling more in control of my emotions, 9 months later. The grieving period has been WAY WAY WAY out of proportion to the actual event of our 6 month relationship.
Here is one thing that strikes me about this relationship, that hinders closure:
In past healthy relationships, everything that I gained during the relationship I kept after it ended. All the personal growth, everything I learned, the enlargement of my character and experience and personality, I kept it all! My partners loved me and respected me and I knew it, and the ending didn’t change that, even though the end was always very very sad, and there were sometimes some angry words we regretted at the end. But, ultimately, these relationships were enriching.
However, in this unhealthy relationship with the EUM, somehow everything we shared was totally invalidated by the time it ended. Yes, initially I was so special and talented and we embarked on new adventures and artistic collaborations, but by the end I was left wondering about my character, in doubt about my talent, my abilities, and my very lovableness! So, I was left not only sad but depleted, at the time when I needed myself most.
I’m not saying this is all his fault — no one can allow this self-estrangement but me. But this feeling of slow depletion is yet another flag, another warning I should have recognized, and WILL NOT TOLERATE ever again.
“The grieving period has been WAY WAY WAY out of proportion to the actual event of our 6 month relationship.”
SallyJane, i do find it slightly comforting though that i am not the only one taking her time. my relationship with the EUM only lasted 4 months — my shortest ‘relationship'(or whatever it was) ever. 3 months later, and i’m still dealing with it. i’m getting better, for sure, but would have thought after about a month, maybe 2, i’d be back to ‘normal’. from time to time i beat myself up over this, but making me feel bad is the last thing i need.
i so get the ‘depleted’ part. i feel completely depleted of my self esteem and my ‘lovability’. this is a wake up call, though, because we should not need a man to feel lovable and complete.
however, in all my relationships i did get used to my partner telling me i looked nice, or that the food i had prepared was delicious, or the artwork i had created was fabulous, or that i was smart, beautiful, sweet and intelligent and had a beautiful soul.
the EUM only did that in the first 2 months, then he completely stopped with any positive feedback or reinforcement. he would still say nice things about his ex, or other people. but never about me.
i really started feeling ‘not good enough’ and so rejected. when i turned to him for validation, i got rejected again. this can really do a number on your self esteem.
it is oh so important to have a healthy dose of self esteem, to have boundaries in place, to not get sucked into the fantasy EUM/AC tent and NEVER, EVER mistake the red flags for beautiful red roses.
Natashya it is just the same for me. Only involved with him for 5 months but feel like I will NEVER get over it. I have been divorced twice, last time I was married for 13 years and got over it in a heartbeat. Even though it was short and even though it was I who finished it ( because I realized I was losing my very soul) I just cannot stop thinking about him/us/it/whatever. I have been NC for 4 weeks ( fell off wagon first time) and it does get easier but no way am I over it. My friends are in disbelief that I am still grieving over it.
victorious, how long ago did you split up if i may ask?
i was also married for a long time (11 years) and getting over that did not take me that long, either. perhaps because any sense of fantasy, illusion or potential was long gone. it really is the fantasy that’s doing me in with this one. and the fantasy isn’t even anything pie in the sky and unattainable. just unattainable with him.
my friends are getting sick and tired hearing about it. they just want me to get my act together and forget about him. i don’t really blame them, because what’s done is done and i desperately want to be done with it, too. it is exhausting. i try different things, but i think i will just have to get through this to get out. i tried pushing my thoughts and feelings about him away, but then i end up dreaming about him, which is way worse.
i do yoga, i do meditation, i do journal, i do read a lot, i do things to keep me busy and i am eating healthy and exercising etc. but i’m starting to beat myself up why i cannot just let it go completely. i know i am getting there, but it’s such a long and painful process and i’m starting to wonder what the hell is wrong with me.
Honestly Natashya I hear you I really do. I also do not know why the hell I still think of him 24/7. In answer to your question, after a few false dumpings where I tried to finish it but he begged me to change my mind, please give him another chance etc, I finally finished it on Sept 12th. He ignored my request to leave me alone to heal and I foolisly accepted the friend card on 10 October after he texted, sent me a lovely card, and then called me. The friend thing was actually going really well. ALthough with hindsight it was a bit like the original lovebombing but without the affection. When we met we did not hold hands or kiss but, like you, I still really enjoyed his company and if I am honest I felt validated on some level. However, from getting 4 or 5 calls a day and texts all excited about seeing me, he disappeared from 20 October to 5 November. In that time I was literally frantic although I did manage not to contact him myself. It made me realise that I was NOT in any position to be friends with him and so I have not answered any of his subsequent calls or texts. Although in his case, because of other issues I won’t detail here, I believe he has NPD, I have to accept that persoanlity disoredr or not, this madn is bad news for my emotional, physical and mental health. I have lost 2 and a half stone in as many months, had time off work due to stress, and have been a nervous wreck. I am getting better now. NC is the only cure for getting over these bizarre relationships where they don’t want you, but won’t piss off and leave you alone. It was all very new to me and I loved the initial phase where he adored me and I was the bestest girlfriend he had ever had. But I now know it was the way he made me feel that I loved, rather than him. Natalie has a really good post about pain being mistaken for love, I think it is called, “is it love? Or is it Fear Drama and Pain? Try to find it as you may find it useful.
Even when we split he said I had always been the loveliest girfriend to him. But it wasn’t enough Natashya, and it never will be for these guys, cos there is something wrong/missing/damaged with them that can never be fixed.
I really hope you come to terms with this soon and are able to move on, but please don’t worry about how much time it takes. Sending you hugs.
victorious, thanks so much for commenting and sharing your story. our break ups happened at around the same time.
i haven’t had much contact with the ex EUM because he continued traveling alone and i really had to go home because i was seriously losing my mind still spending 24/7 with him as FWB (ugh).
when he got home, i went NC on him (i told him and he respected that, with the exception of 1 occasion where he had a feeling i wasn’t doing well and wanted to know that i was okay).
i really felt i was getting better in the past month or so, and i am surprised by my recent setback, which was triggered by me breaking NC 2 weeks ago. i have had a few really bad days (as in hysterical crying spells) in a row now and i can’t seem to snap out of it. my regular routine of meditation, walks in nature and journaling just haven’t cut it those past 2 days.
this whole ordeal has affected everything in my life. i won’t get into the details here, but partly because of this, i am also without my own place right now, and without a steady income (i’m freelancing but have not been able to do much due to stress).
“But I now know it was the way he made me feel that I loved, rather than him.” yep, i totally hear you. my ex EUM is not a bastard (but he is damaged bc of what happened during his marriage and the slow but sure demise of it) but yes, i too really miss the way i felt when i was with him initially. i had not dated for over 2 years and it was so lovely to be in love again, to feel special again and to be somebody’s number 1. every day was just such a blessing, so exciting, i felt so incredibly good, optimistic, excited, hopeful and relaxed. i realise it is not him i miss. it is the feeling he brought out in me. i miss myself.
i will do a search for the article you mentioned. i probably have read it already (i think i’ve read pretty much every article on here by now). thank you for sending the hugs. sending some your way as well.
Victorious and Natashya
So much of what you say describes what I experienced and am still going through – and I haven’t seen him in six months and haven’t heard from him in 5 weeks. I am in my 40s too, have had various relationships with different men and although there were one or two painful breakups they didn’t devastate me and I was able to move on fairly quickly. This “relationship” was so insubstantial my emotional reaction is entirely disproportionate. And I still think of him A LOT If not 24/7. Do we change as we get older? Is it us that overinvest?
I also thought I’d never found someone who was so perfect. I got what I now see to be the love bombing, intense attention at the start, that wasn’t something I’ve ever encountered before. I was in bed crying my eyes out for days this time last year. It’s nothing like that now but I still have some bad days and miss him.
And he was married (separated now) so what did I expect but still the behaviour sounds much the same as being described by everyone else. Most of the time I can’t even feel angry, and I know I should.
mymble, maybe there is the ‘last chance saloon’ running, if only subconsciously. i don’t know.
after my marriage 5 years ago, i never thought i wouldn’t meet anybody ever again. i did, i was in a 2 year relationship with someone else, and after that had a short fling with an EUM.
i wasn’t reading BR at the time, but i realised he was EU pretty quickly and well, i hadn’t invested myself very much into him because i realised i was EU myself at the time. that’s why i took a few years off, to work on myself and get (emotionally) happy and healthy again.
i did. before i met the latest EUM, i had spent a year single and happy and i was really ready to date again.
and i was picky, too! or so i thought. so when i met the last EUM, i seriously was over the moon and thought all my inner work had finally paid off. it wasn’t love at first sight for me (we met online) but after a month or so, i did fall for him. and when i did, i fell hard. i seriously thought he was emotionally stable and available and for the first time in my life, i went in 100% because i really wanted to be with him.
i can’t speak for anybody else, but for me there is a great feeling of ‘loss’ because he is the first man in my life i really wanted to be with. also, i can’t shake the illusions of the first 2 months. i know that person will never come back. he told me so, but how could i get fooled so badly? how could i have been SO WRONG about somebody.
i want to feel angry at him. he sold me a nice shiny car and when it got delivered, it turned out to be a wonky bicycle with missing pushing pedals. furthermore, it was locked tight and he wouldn’t give up the key!
after spending another day crying yesterday, i have made an appointment to see a therapist. last thing i need while not working is shrink bills, but i seriously need a helping hand to speed up this healing process. it consumes me 24/7.
Aha natashya, and there we have it! I suspect that, like me, you have always been told, or you secretly believed that you were pretty damn intelligent. I know I did. And I cannot accept that I got it so horribly wrong. THat I believed him, that I fell for it all. That I got mixed up with such a weirdo! I have lost faith in my own judgement, along with a HUGE chuck of self esteem that went out the window. I had also been single for 2 years and thought I had done the work. I was happily single too, and he literally badgered me into going out with him. Was quite insistent. I thought it was a bit of an adventure, would be good for my confidence etc ! Ha bloody Ha! Couldn’t have got that more wrong could I? I suppose it was an adventure alright, but the sort where you end up wading through mud, slowly losing your mind. He had me hooked the first time we kissed and he knew it. I was walking on air the first few months, and now I think he had it planned all along to just devalue me and watch the impact it had on me. What a freak!
hi victorious, i must admit your post made me laugh. in a good way! and god knows it’s been a while since i laughed. yep, exactly what you describe. and at first i thought my story was unique! 🙂
i feel like i’m coming down a little from my tailspin, though. making the appointment with the shrink feels as if i’m taking my power back. i don’t know if you’re into this kind of thing, but i’ve also been reading a lot of pema chodron today. she has such wonderful teachings on things like fear and attachment. it’s empowering.
Ladies,
Just a thought…I’m not totally comfortable with “time frames” with regards to the healing process, particularly if the involvement was with someone who has a personality disorder, narcissist or whatever. It’s a very traumatic experience and these people are total soul suckers. The thing is, that it’s so traumatic, it’s meant to open you up to healing and growth, a serious self evaluation! When you put time limits on trauma, I think it’s counterproductive. Everyone has their own time and way of healing and much of it can have so many variables, length of time in relationshit, was it traumatic, do you have a background of abuse…patterns, boundaries, value that might need changing?
I just finished reading Natalie’s book. VERY good but very painful too. I agree with just about everything in it, except the time limits on things. It was shocking to see that a person who is divorced needs to wait at least three months before dating…uhhh, nooooooo about a YEAR. I’ve seen waaaaayyyy too many assclowns (narcissists) speed out of a divorce and three months later, pick up another victim and is married several months or a year after his divorce. Um, someone didn’t do some reflection! lol! A narc CAN keep the mask on UP to a full year. Three months, in my opinion is too soon and into a relationship way too soon.
Take your time and give yourselves permission to do the work. You’ll learn a lot about yourselves. It takes as long as it takes.
thank you, K. i do get what you’re saying. my ex husband is/was an alcoholic and abusive. once i decided to leave, i was very shaken up about it at first, but i think i did most of my grieving while in that relationship. i did leave with my self esteem in tact, though. i was hysterical, but not broken.
the 4 months with the EUM is an entirely different story. he didn’t do anything ‘bad’. the worst he did was string me along for 2 months when he realised he wasn’t ready for a relationship. he withdrew from me, physically and emotionally.
however, people are allowed to change their mind. i know not all relationships are meant to work out. what i am having such difficulty with though is that this experience completely eroded my self esteem. i can’t shake the feeling of not being ‘good enough’, especially since i didn’t pretend to be anything else than who i am. i am not perfect, but i always did think of myself as a ‘catch’. in my head i know this is still true, but now there’s also a little ‘you’re not good enough’ voice in my head. this is new to me and i’m having difficulty dealing with it. i can’t help but think that grieving for 3 months over a non-traumatic (meaning narc, abuse etc.) relationship that only lasted 4 months is out of proportion and it makes me wonder what i’m doing ‘wrong’.
Natashya —
Perhaps you are not doing anything “wrong”. This experience with an EUM was still destructive, even if the trauma was not so terribly and dramatically “bad”, as you say. Perhaps, like me, your emotions just need time to catch up with what you know intellectually. You seem to have it figured out and to have a positive, constructive perspective. And you say you are doing better and better all the time. Brava! Keep telling yourself the truth and counteract that lying little voice in your head with positive and true things. You will get there! Don’t give up!
Also, I found it helpful to go get screened for depression. And yes, it turns out I was clinically depressed. So, my perspective was definitely skewed, and in that way my grief was indeed not “normal”. It was really good for me to get professional help with that, really sped up my healing. Perhaps that is something you might consider if you are feeling really stuck and hopeless. Just a suggestion. You’ll know what to do!
Natashya:
It sounds like its more than just not being ready for a relationship. Especially because he stopped complimenting you at all, yet continued to see you. He definitely sounds EU and THAT, in my opinion, is why it’s so hard to get over these guys. Not only does your self-esteem get eroded and you end up feeling not good enough or unlovable, BUT you also feel used, ripped off, betrayed because they never actually participated.
Also, in my experience, while they don’t actually participate, they stick around and insinuate that they’re doing you a huge favor by even being there. Really? Mr. EU who can’t feel a damn thing is doing me a favor???
You have so many things to look at, never knew exactly where you stood or meant to this person, lots of lies, outright or by omission, confusion all over the place. It’s anything but a normal break-up. And even if they aren’t personality disordered, it’s still really screwed up and can be traumatic. AND it is a wake-up call to deal with yourself to get absolutely healthy. So there’s that whole component as well.
So forget about the time frame. Tell your friends this is NOT a normal break-up, it’s a whole different beast and it IS going to take time.
Hang in there…it will heal.
thank you, SallyJane and Pintura.
yeah, he ‘changed’ overnight and yes, continued to see me. perhaps only because he kind of had to… we were traveling abroad together for several months (and worked too, all this was planned ahead).
i think if we hadn’t, he would have just done the slow physical fade as he was too much of a coward to be honest with me.
however, we broke up during our travels but basically continued as usual.. without his emotional involvement. and that is MY mistake but i’m not beating myself up over that. i learnt that i would never again take the FWB card and if it were to happen again, i would RUN.
yeah, a big part is the confusion. not knowing what was real and what was not. also, i projected all my dreams onto him. we both have very similar interests and ideas about lifestyle and it was great finally meeting someone who was able to do the things that i wanted to do. i can still do them on my own, but i really do prefer traveling with a partner. i have done the solo thing many times and just no longer have an interest in it.
when i met him and found out he’s into the same things, i though i had hit the jackpot, especially since he also seemed to be a very nice and gentle guy, easy going, etc. he was a perfect travel companion. i did enjoy his company very much. i just should have never gotten involved with him and just stayed ‘friends’. but i can’t turn back the clock now.
i am getting better, i sometimes just have very bad days where i miss him. or the idea of him, because really, when i think about it, he didn’t treat me very nicely. withdrawing instead of communicating with me is not a nice and mature way to handle things.
Natashya, please read Natalie’s all three parts of this post!!!I keep reading and it VERY helpful. Honestly, I do not know what I could have done without Natalie and BR community:( https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/coping-with-feeling-rejected-by-mr-unavailables-assclowns-part-two/
SallyJane
Wow, I’m surprised your therapist said that. Mind you, mine said a few things that made me wonder. Therapists are only human though. If they say something we disagree with, we are allowed to disagree. It doesn’t make them a bad therapist and it doesn’t make us a bad client. In fact, some healthy disagreement can be a good thing, rather than the people-pleasing merry-go-round we are on.
Of course if you loan money you deserve to get it back; if someone no longer wants to be in a relationship with you, you deserve an explanation; if I take a job I deserve to be paid at the end of the month. If these things don’t happen – the friend who owes you money goes bankrupt, the ex disappears, the employer goes bust in a week, are we going to keep on and on ad nauseum crying about what we are owed and deserve, long long long after the loss has incurred? We’re just throwing more time and effort at something which we are just not going to get.
Lilly,
The thought,which crossed my mind reading your posts today is wouldn’t it be wonderful if you could somehow give yourself the gift of a new job without neccessarily needing MM’s help to get it?
Job’s go awry all the time & people seek references from alternative positions in an organisation for various reasons. I just have this vision of you, STRICTLY CONFIDENTIALLY lining up SOMEONE OTHER THAN HIM to be a referee for you, & of you applying for a position elsewhere, & him knowing nothing of it, until you suddenly send you ‘group goodbye’ announcement email.
THAT would REALLY show that heartless cruel creep that you DON’T need him (& you don’t btw) & can get along just FINE without his ‘help’. It would also get you out of harms way. Some people can stay in jobs after an affair & be ok but your situation was very traumatic.
Even though your contact with MM is only via email I can hear it’s really affecting you & just imagine how freeing it would be to no longer have that burden weighing you down.
I get concerned also because although you’re committed to NC you’re also quite vulnerable & I can see he is acting like a predator trying to charm you back in. Your strength is admirable but we all have our breaking point. There’s an old saying. ‘If you sit in the barber’s chair long enough you’ll end up getting a hair cut’.
This is just something to think about. I’d hate to see him suck you back in, in a moment of weakness because me, it can & does happen, no matter how strong our resolve.
Hugs T x
Lilly, I too have been worried about you keeping in touch with this toxic man, because clearly you are not just dealing with him on a minimal professional basis by email – now he seems to be putting some pressure on you to see him PERSONALLY. As Teach says, this is predatory, and is a recipe for disaster for you. You’re fragile, you’re vulnerable, you’re suffering and you will remain so until you BREAK ALL CONTACT with him. No job, no career, no academic success is worth this kind of soul-killing torture. There is a lot of truth in the saying “you gained the world, but you lost your soul.” I once quit a promising, very impressive job that was just killing me because it was so toxic, with no idea of what I would do next – and it was the best thing to ever happen to me. Not saying it was easy, and there were some lean times financially. But I gained my soul back and that was worth everything.
I’m a firm believer in the “third option.” There is always another option than just the dualism we get stuck in. For you, the dualism seems to be – stay in contact with this guy or suffer professionally. Please try to look deeper to find another option that allows you to GET OUT. As soon as possible.
Lilly,
I agree with T.
I educate and help survivors of personality disorders, which are extreme versions of AC’s, but I gotta tell ya, some of what I read here, lists the characteristics of psychopathic behavior to at “T”…
What I have learned in my recovery, is that now while I’m looking for a job, if there is disrespect or abuse of ANY kind, I’m gone. That IS my boundary now. One of the survivors I have worked with, who has healed a lot this last year after two short term narc’s, has quit four jobs and was fired from one, for speaking up against their abuse tactics. One was a co worker, the others were the employers in the situation. She works for herself now, which must be VERY nice because she can be selective about whom her clients are, but anyway…her mantra is “I’d rather be a bag lady than work for an abuser again!” It’s become her boundary too.
I think it’s about your priorities. I realize that the economy is really shitty right now and jobs are scarce and people do have to make a living, but when it comes down to your mental health and your dignity, no amount of money can fix it if it’s broken due to working with someone like this. He’s doing this crap on purpose and it’s dragging YOU down and makes NC impossible.
I hope you will look into alternatives that may help you get out of this situation. For the sake of your well being, because you’re worth more than this..
Teachable, Sadder but Wiser, K, DQ, Sushi,
Thank you all so much. There is one very clear underlining message in all of your posts. I NEED TO GET OUT. Teach, I was just about to put my hand up and volunteer for the recently vacated position of most messed up person on BR. BUT, I’ve picked myself back up and come out fighting. I don’t want the job! Sadder, “dualism’ pure genius. You are right “stay in contact or suffer professionally”. I have no idea what the third option is yet, but there is one and I’m going to find it. K, he does have many narcissistic traits. I thought he might be feeling guilty that’s why he’s helping my career, but something doesn’t feel quite right. The turmoil I’m in is ridiculous. I’m not a child. I’m a strong, capable, adult woman and I can do this. DQ, I’ve caught up with my sleep! Ladies you are amazing, xxx.
And Teach, why you ever gave yourself that label I’ll never know. I think you are amazing, a true survivor, hugs, xxx.
Just another perspective on closure.
No doubt I still don’t & never will know the full story but it was only when I did a bit of digging after cutting off from my ex & discovered I’d been deliberately lied to & that my ex had been with another woman whilst talking about going to rehab & then maybe having a future with me, that I succeeded in maintaining NC, with no further feelings of attachment to him (only his subsequent death changed this, more in relation to the bigger life & death issue though, not he & I, as such).
Before he died I had two or three long conversations with this woman & between the two of us we were able to work out my now deceased ex’s MO.
Basically, he was playing both of us, & multiple OW at different times also (she didn’t want to believe this but I knew it to be a fact, although I’d thought they were casual encounters… now I’m not so sure & realise anything is possible).
Once the FULL HORROR of exactly what this guy had been up to hit me, all feelings of love, care, respect, etc went out the window.
I was furious at being lied to & had NO TROUBLE maintaining NC from then on. It was as if someone flipped a switch. I didn’t need any sort of explanations from him. I had all I needed to know to stay firm that he was FLUSHED FOR GOOD.
Hence, I can see two sides to the issue of closure. Up until the point where I contacted the woman I mention , I kept failing in my attempts to maintain NC, as I had no idea as to why a guy who once used to be just your average bear, had come back into my life 17 yrs later & was suddenly behaving like a total ASSHOLE. When he confessed to suffering addiction issues, (he lived interstate, so I had no idea what was really going on), I thought maybe this was why he was behaving so badly & stupidly tried to be compassionate!
Compassionate re his addiction issues my ass! He was with ANOTHER WOMAN & more than one of them!!!! Ugh!!!!!!!!
Sometimes knowing that little bit of info we need really CAN help with closure because then you go, oh RIGHT. So THAT’s what was going on, write them off as toxic poison & know NEVER to speak to them again.
Thus, in some cases, I do think it’s worth seeking some basic facts of a situation if it will help a person to let go like it did in my case. (And talk about letting go. I dropped that SOB out of my life so fast he did not know WHAT had hit him! With more than a few choice words on the way out!!!)
I can also see though where for some the search for information might cross the line into becoming obsessive or an excuse not to move on. Each person must decide for themselves where that line us.
That said, those I think who are most fortunate have at least some basic facts to go on when a r.ship breaks down, as to why. I see nothing wrong with going out & getting these if one is able to (as I was) & one has not done anything wrong & it will aid your peace of mind in ketting go to do so.
Teach,
the same thing happened to me. I spent months and months finding the poor EUM a bit weird, a bit as if he was emotionally broken, feeling sympathetic, easing his fears of trusting me, adjusting to his kinky sexual needs, blahblah.
Until one of my girlfriends told me the truth: he had moved back months ago without telling me (he was living in another city) and was dating someone else.
After that, ignoring him was easy as pie. I didn´t need any more clarification or discussion or conversation. It was painful, but it was over. There is not much chance of falling back into lalaland or florencing once you know he was lying like mad and involved with someone else.
I think things would´ve dragged on for at least another year (or more, if he´d had his way) if I hadn´t had that piece of info. Of course, I was lucky to hear all this from someone else and not from him. He´d have only bombarded me with excuses, explanations and a varied collection of manipulation strategies. Hearing it put so bluntly by my girlfriend gave me the freedom to let go.
Lilia,
There was NO WAY on earth I was giving my ex an opportunity to ‘explain’ his wilful deceit to me, once I discovered it.
I’d had more than a GUTFUL of his lies over other issues (drug use & finances) by that stage already, I knew damned well that to do so would only be inviting MORE lies & BS.
I had, had ENOUGH & chose instead to save myself the drama and headache. Rather I let him HAVE IT no holds barred and went NC. He responded with the most VITRIOLIC email full of hatred I had ever read. I feared he would try to cause problems for me at work and so sent an email actually PRETENDING I had forgiven him as a form of DAMAGE CONTROL and stayed NC from there.
It seems that last email worked as he then tried to contact just before he died thinking I had in fact forgiven him. The truth is I hadn’t at all. I guess in hindsight though at least he died thinking that I cared and that I had. Thus, that is one thing I don’t have on my conscience.
Still, talk about a head f*ck. I knew not to put any value on it but we had always talked about marrying one day and having a child. What a load of BS he was full of. LOL
So glad I don’t have to deal with that anymore. Sad he died though. It’s a complicated grieving process in some ways. In others not. Very simple.
His brother sent me an email by accident today (group email). I haven’t contacted him at all since I’ve been NC not even since knowing the ex died (I’ve only spoken the the sister – I had to speak to someone – it was a huge shock to discover and I did feel the need to find out what on earth had happened seening as he’d emailed the night before and morning of his death).
I deleted the brother’s accidental email. Sadness tonight though. I can’t quite put my finger on why. Stil working that bit out, other than of course, someone I USED to care about is now dead.
I suspect my heart is taking time to catch up to the reality of the ending in what happened. It was one thing to lose all feelings for him and go NC, but quite another for him to then suddenly die. I don’t know. It’s all so final.
Grief and death is a strange thing.
Teachable,
I don´t know if this is any help. But I used to have this feeling that whenever someone died, he/she gained some sort of superior status, as if they were put on a pedestal. Something like that. But now that I´m (supposedly) more mature, I see my deceased loved ones exactly as they used to be while alive.
My grandma died 3 years ago and instead of seeing her as this wonderful superior being (as I did with my grandfather, who died when I was 17), I remember her with all the things I disagreed about. I miss her a lot but I know which things she would´ve frowned upon, how she´d have reacted if she knew one of my cousins came out of the closet this year. I was always irritated by her fixation on good looks and nice clothes and I know I would still be if she were alive. Sometimes I even worry that if I ever get to meet her again in some afterlife she´ll be mad with me because I severed ties with a part of the family and revealed some dirty family secrets we all had covered up since I was a teenager – per her instruction.
I guess I´m saying our relationship with people who have died stays the same because death doesn´t turn them into saints. Something like that. I once saw a British tv documentary about mediums, these old ladies who communicated with the dead. It wasn´t at all like in the films. One of them told that she was once approached by a man who was thinking of buying a house and wanted the advice of his deceased great-aunt. The medium asked if his great-aunt had been an estate agent and he said no. So she asked Why would you want her advice then? He had somehow turned his great-aunt into an oracle, only because she wasn´t alive anymore.
I´m not implying you´re putting your ex on a pedestal. But it might help if you relate to him (in your mind) the way he was.
I am saying this in TOTAL JEST… (so pls DON’T anyone take it the wrong way as I’m laughing WITH us not at anyone)…
However reading all these OW, MM, OOW, MW, OM, OOM,… & endless of combinations of similar things, I’m hereby RESIGNING my previous claim of feeling like the most messed up person on BR!!
For those who don’t recall, I gave myself this title because as a young teenage girl, I chose to have my rapists baby, (I know, I know, but I love my Son very much, all be it that as anyone would be, he is now horrified as a young adult to be learning said details of this)
Still, I’m resigning my crown!!!
Anyone who wishes to scramble for it please do!
Do I hear an OOOOW, of a 8 x divorced now MM who popped outta someone’s cupboard, bidding?
C’mon on now… I know there must be one SOMEWHERE! LOL
PS You will have an even BETTER shot at the ‘crown’ if the 8 x divorced now MM is ALSO a narc, sociopath, suffering drug & alcohol problems, a gambling addiction, sex addiction (let’s see, what else?) oh yes, & may as well make him a rapist to boot!
Hang on a sec, give or take a few categories, that ALMOST describes my deceased ex (of course I exaggerate but not far off! LOL).
I so just needed this laugh today.
To all the OW, OM, etc, I don’t really have a lot of experience to offer. I only know through supporting a friend trying to stop such behaviour that for her at least, it was very painful.
Everyone makes mistakes in life & we ought not be defined by them forever. So long as we learn from them they are not mistakes; they are experience. I admire peoples honesty & it’s me to learn by reading other peoples experiences with this.
One other thing. Although it takes two to tango, it is the cheater in a partnership who is responsible for the cheating, not the other party. The cheater will always find a new willing partner. Unfortunately.
Hugs to all our BR posters & Nat x
This may be off topic but from reading through so many comments lately I can count on my fingers how many times that I have read someone stating that the EUM was an alcoholic. I think that plays another in who you are dealing with if someone has a drinking problem. The EUM that I encountered also had a drinking problem. Who puts vodka in Gatorade bottle leaves it in his car and lies and says on that’s caffeine. That’s another different story that I didn’t know about and he apparently tried to cover up. Another reason that I should be happy the way things ended and stayed over between us. So that was my clue that there wouldn’t have been anything that I could do or say to change things. He was already who he was before we met and I don’t want anybody in my life that I got to try and SAVE.
Awakened,
Mine was. I didn’t touch alcohol before him either. He used “wine” as his MO in luring. I didn’t know much about it, but I learned. By the time the relationshit ended, I had a drinking problem. It was easy to quit when it was OVER. Now I’m really glad…but I think there are lots of men with addictions, it’s just that sometimes their atrocious behavior seems to make the drink less of an issue, even if it’s an issue. Good for you in recognizing what you have. You can’t save them and most of them don’t want to be anyway, but want YOU to think they can be so they can continue to get what they want. You’re very wise!
Awakened,
Totally agree.
Anyone who is feeling sad after being dumped by an alcoholic doesnt realise that the day that guy walked out the door was the best day of their life, they just can’t see it yet.
I have though with my alcoholic father and his string of wives and LTRs.
The smarter they are the quicker they run away from him.
Hello Natalie and all of BR,
I’m a little late with weighing in on the “closure” discussion, but I wanted to express my thoughts about this particular post because in the last couple of weeks, I feel like I’ve gotten that closure with the AC “friend.” It will probably come as no surprise to most of you that it wasn’t due to anything the AC did/said, as I haven’t heard from him (thank the Lord above). It was a purely organic process. It just kind of alighted on me one morning as I was yawning in bed, like those moments tend to do. A kind of “Hmm….should I make scrambled eggs for breakfast? Could use the protein….oh, and yeah. I’m feeling OVER that horrendous assface. Hmm…well, whaddya know? Anyway, about those eggs….”
The funny thing about this feeling is that it has pushed me on to OTHER realizations. Like an overwhelming sense of gratefulness at my stroke of pure fortune and bullet-dodging skills, resulting in the AC not being in my life in any form anymore. Providence, divine intervention, time and unforseen occurence…..whatever it was, I’m THANKFUL that I am no longer considering that dude as an option.
Another gem I’ve discovered: for all of the feelings of hurt that I read in the comments on here, I’m seeing ever more clearly how, in actuality, the ACs and EUs of the world actually needed US more than we needed THEM. The sheer IRONY!!! Considering that they act as PREDATORS and we, feeling like prey. When in actuality, on some level they know that they have nary a thing going for them, and the only way to “catch” love, attention, ego strokes, etc. is to PLAY FALSE TO WHO THEY ARE. Thereby on some level admitting to the world that AS IS they are UNWORTHY of our love, if they have to try to get it from us through sleight of hand. Think about that ladies (and gentlemen) the next time you’re feeling like you have low self-esteem. Your ex-ACs and EUs go through life TRICKING people to fall for them because they KNOW that they can’t get it on fair terms. And THAT’S why they pull this “future-faking” shite. Because they know they don’t have much time before we see the mask fall. And leave their ass.
Reading these posts about the downright negligible, appalling, conscienceless behavior of these people, my first thought is that they are behaving like seven-year old girls. But, then, I don’t want to insult seven-year old girls.
And people, let’s look at the FURTHER irony of these people and their pathetic grabs for ego boosts: when we come out from under their lies and deceptions, when we take the time, we actually begin to realize this: IT WAS NEVER ABOUT THEM. IT WAS ABOUT US ALL ALONG.
Ha! That is the most entertaining (if you can FIND entertainment in this) part of this process. HEAR YE, HEAR YE, ASSCLOWNS OF THE WORLD: You know that smug feeling you get when you feel like that girl (or guy) is “still into you,” thereby making you feel on top of the world and soooo good about yourself? Well, guess what? Come a little closer, ’cause I got something for you (whispers in ear): That person’s inability to move on right away has NOTHING (let me repeat this) NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU. It’s their struggle to get over the FEELINGS OF REJECTION, NOT YOU. It could just as easily be Kevin from her work, or Claudia from down the street. Or you know that man that stutters that you make fun of in your cute little way in order to boost your own flagging ego? Guess what? It could be HIM instead of you. So get over yourself.
Bragging that someone can’t get over you is like bragging that you’re the world league champion of that hanging hook game at the mall. You know–the one where the hook lowers and, if you’re “skilled,” you maneuver it to get some stuffy, furry animal? Well, guess what…..who the fuck cares?
That’s all I have to say for now. Just wanted to throw a little fight in here for all of you still hurting. These people aren’t worth your time or your tears. When you heal (and you will heal), you’ll see that clearly. And you and your new, healthy husband (or wife) who adores you and respects you and who wouldn’t DREAM of pulling that shite on the homeless man in the subway station (let ALONE someone with which they are intimate!) will lay and bed and thank the Lord above that you kicked that trash right on down the street and kept walking.
Oh! And ((hugs)), Teach. I’m readin’ ya. 🙂
I wish there was a “like” button:D
revolution, you are genius. *worships*
AMEN. These men are NOT special, and DO NOT deserve to be put on a pedestal. How does that even work?!?!?! They treat us like sh*t, lie, manipulate, and mindf*ck us and somehow we think they’re BETTER? And feel BAD that they don’t want us?
We don’t need to prove ourselves to people who would treat a stranger in such a manner, let alone someone they “like” or even “love”. !!! My closure is going to come because I can start to separate myself from what happened and look at the cold hard facts of how HE behaved, and what kind of a person that makes HIM. All of a sudden I don’t feel any kind of mourning, or nostalgia, because I can see clearly who this guy is.
I just wanted to add that what finally clicked in my head that allowed me to end it once and for all with my ex, is that if I let him back into my life in ANY capacity, it would be blatantly telling him what he did was OK. It would be a big fat golden star of approval. “Oh! She’s talking to me again! Then I can’t have done anything wrong! I still got it!” That thought horrified me. This complete ASS still deluding himself into thinking he’s some kind of gift to women. We can’t be the willing accomplices of douchebag, sociopath losers anymore ladies!!!!
I’m with you all the way. WE are better, NOT them!
Malise… “Oh! She’s talking to me again! Then I can’t have done anything wrong! I still got it!” That thought horrified me.
I agree totally with you on this. I am sure he was shocked when I went NC. Hell, I was shocked too but it was the best way to show him what he did was not OK …
Revolution & Malaise, I’ve printed out both posts. Pure inspiration!
Bravo, Revolution!!!!
I am right now going to copy/ paste this to a word document to save and read again. Absolutely right- on brilliant. Thank you for the inspiration, and for sharing your ephiphany!!! I am almost there myself.
Almost……
((( ))) Pandora
Revolution…
To paraphrase from a reply you made to me a couple of weeks ago… That was F***ing AWESOME!!! I’m sitting here with a HUGE grin on my face and giving you a virtual High Five. Way to go!!!!!
Thank you dear Revolution for this powerful words, I just pray that one day I will be FREE from ACs, I keep repeating this to myself over and over again. SO glad you are over of your AC:) xx
P.S. Mmmmm……eggs….. 🙂
Revolution,
Thank you for the great humor and empowering honesty!
Its time for some eggs…
🙂
I’ve been reading this website and Natalie’s fabulous posts for the last few months. All that time I’ve known that I need to GET OUT of the stupid situation I’ve been in for too long.
It’s hard to accept that our need for closure, explanation, validation etc is about US and not THEM. As I start typing this saga of mine, I realise just how crazy I’ve been. Started an on/off casual ‘relationship’ with a guy at work who had a girlfriend. Nope, there are no excuses as to why I did it, why we kept stopping and starting again or why I allowed myself to hope for change. Then, just a few weeks ago, he finally breaks up with his girlfriend. We start seeing each other again, until tonight when we finally agree that I want a relationship and he doesn’t. That’s all the closure I’m going to get. Yes, he’s EU, of course he’s flipping well EU, he’s only just come out of a relationship. BUT, he doesn’t want a relationship with me either, after any amount of time has passed. I have to stop this madness, let it go, stop dreaming that somehow he’s going to magically change his mind – HE’S NOT.
Unfortunately we work together. We are both part of the small senior management team of a growing company. Leaving is not an option for either of us right now, and I love my work too much.
So, I’ll just carry on reading this site, keep NC outside of work issues, keep trying to work on myself to learn, grow and not repeat my mistakes.
Thanks for anyone reading, you are all so lovely and your posts often make me laugh and cry when I read them
hx
Mymble, Allison,Newbie,Dancing Queen,CC:
Thanks for your replies. I guess I could quit my job but I have been looking for 2 yrs and finally found a job I really like that is very flexible and allows me to make sure I don’t miss any of my daughters senior year activities. It really makes me mad at myself that I got him the job here.
I understand everyone’s frustration. And CC you are right I’m going to end up in the psych ward. I’m at work right now and he left about 30 mins ago and I am an emotional wreck. He stood here and told me he is jealous of me and the supervisor. The supervisor is not married and we talk and joke around. He said he knows he has no right to be jealous but he is. He knows I told him I can’t let go as long as I’m talking to him and he continues to come up talking to me. When he walked out today I started crying, my gut is in knots. I don’t know how to handle this. Counseling hasn’t helped, it’s only been 3 weeks maybe I haven’t given it time. I know I have no boundaries with him. I don’t know what’s wrong with me.
ms. option-
here’s the key to the whole thing:
he’s an asshole. he is a meaningless speck of nothing. he is not worth your time or effort. he is a waste of biomass. truly, crying over him is nothing but dehydration.
why?
because its not about him or how you feel about him. its about how you feel about YOU. he is nothing more than a placeholder, on object onto which you project how you feel about you, upon which you exercise your broken relationship with yourself.
scroll up and read revolution’s comment over and over and over until it starts to make sense. print her comment out and read it 100 times a day. meditate on it.
YOU are worth saving. stick with the counseling, it takes much longer than 3 weeks to work.
do EVERYTHING you can to get perspective on what an insignificant speck of dust he is. repair your relationship with yourself and you will see that your relationship with him is so ridiculous that you will laugh yourself silly. but you start with saving you.
and get yourself the hell out of there if you possibly can.
Cc, I know this was for MsOption, but if you don’t mind I’d like to share/borrow it!
Option,
You’re making excuses about the job to stay close to him.
If things are as difficult and painful as you say they are, then how can the job be a positive place?
You’re continuing your own drama and problems, and it’s up to you to put a stop to this nonsense!
Ms.Option, We’re sharing many of the same emotions. I’m looking for ways to get out would you like to join me? We can do it, xxx
Sorry for the long email, I just need some support.
This is my first time posting and this is an appropriate topic for me as today’s my first day no contact. In my case, I developed a friendship with this guy and he seemed to be showing signs of interest, not me, but eventually he backed away. Still, we maintained some sort of friendship, not a wise move on my part.
We work in the same organization and have been on lunch a handful of times, never regularly. We email regularly though, and he’d call me on my lunch. Even though we have each other’s contact info at home, he’d never call me at home. It began feeling very one-sided. I’d invested a lot in the friendship and had helped him with certain things at work. He developed some sort of condition and told me that he’d like to have lunch, but wanted to wait until he felt better. I was out once and saw him with his other friends, so he was too sick to have lunch with me, but not sick enough for them. Others told me I was being used and that this wasn’t a real friendship.
Well, I have been trying to not initiate emails and I def. don’t initiate calls, but I’ve grown to almost rely on the contact. He set me up with a female friend of his thinking we’d have a lot in common and last week we went out for the second time. She started saying they’d dated frequently, crossed over boundaries, that he’s possessive of her, that he mopes when she’s not available to him, etc. So, I told him that I should step back because they have unfinished business and I wish that he’d told me I’d be going out with his ex-girlfriend so that I knew what they’d been to each other and that may have made a difference in what I shared.
He told me there was nothing between them, so I shared the stuff about the frequently dating, possessiveness, and that he always calls her and she never calls him. I guess to me I was filling in the blanks and he emailed me back essentially that they’d dated 10 years ago and the message is that it shouldn’t matter to me who he’s friends with and if it does, I should explore that. I was gutted because I had no idea he’d react that way and apologized profusely, last time being Friday. He waited a few days to tell me there was nothing to apologize for. Today there was no phone call, no email and I am left feeling like I destroyed any chance at a friendship. In hindsight, I should have kept quiet, but I didn’t make that stuff up, she told me and I’m getting the gears. The worst part is that he is very devoutly religious and it’s one thing to be rejected by a boyfriend, but to be rejected by a religious friend makes me feel like the worst person in the world. There’s nothing I can do to make it up to him and I feel like such a fool- first because I cared so much for him when it was clear he wasn’t investing the same way, and secondly because what little friendship I did have with him, I ruined by opening my big mouth. I feel just terrible and don’t know what to do anymore.
Dear Wildflower,
this situation certainly gave me a queasy red flag feeling. I would feel really uneasy with the fact that he set you up to start a friendship with someone he was previously involved with…”you have common interests”….yeah HIM. Maybe he is using you to find out if she is still interested in him? or to find out how interested you are! Whatever the reason I would be totally weirded out by the fact that HE arranged the introduction and did not reveal the extent of his relationship with this other person. Beware! He may be devoutly religious, but this does not mean that he is not a player. You were just being honest, which is more than he was!
Truth=Freedom,
Thank you for your reply. I am stuck on the devoutly religious thing and that how he is acting does not equate. I think I was entitled to know, I shared a lot of personal things with both of them and I had no idea I was sharing with his ex-girlfriend. I told him that based on what she told me they dated and still had unfinished business, then later I explained some of the things and I think I really hurt him by being honest. In the end, I could have stepped back without saying so much to him. He said we were back a few steps and it was like I was put on probation for something that she did. My motivation was to tell him I was disappointed he didn’t tell me and to say I was stepping back if they still had stuff on the go.
So, you’re probably wondering if I ever developed feelings for him and the answer is yes. Not at first, but I grew to develop feelings after getting closer to him. We have this type of chemistry together. And here’s the kicker, I’ve been in two serious relationships, one that lasted 10 years and I thought a guy as religious as he is could not hurt me and that I’d be safe. I let myself be vulnerable with him and ended up more hurt than I have been with boyfriends. I can’t get over the fact that as deeply religious as he is, that I wasn’t good enough to invest time with me as he invests with his other friends. I spent countless hours helping him at work to receive one-line responses from email. Never a phone call at home to thank me. Never a call, instead of an email response after hours when it was evident I was upset over something. It even appeared that he distanced himself from me at times and I was always left feeling jipped because I wouldn’t do that to my real friends.
I def. saw the signs of interest there but like the EUM, when I’d show interest, he’d back off. He told me that he wasn’t in a dating frame of mind, yet a friend found what I am 100% sure is his dating profile on an online website and every time I go on, it said he was on-line. I’m not suggesting that he can’t like anyone else, but don’t lead me on and when the chase is over, cut me off.
So, I should be angry that I received a negative return on my investment, right? Wrong- in fact, I feel lousy because in the end even though a relationship was not in the cards, I thought he could be a true friend and I feel that even though the other woman, who’s also devoutly religious, said all those things about her closest male friend; I feel it was mean and insensitive to tell him and I physically hurt all last week because of it. I was a wreck, couldn’t sleep, had no appetite, was unfocused because I felt like I hurt someone I cared about. And regardless of how I tried to apologize, him telling me that it was fine, meant nothing because I’d have expected him to make an effort today and he didn’t, because he truly doesn’t care. It’s just that this latest thing makes it convenient for him to go back to acquaintance status.
His response to me was actually mean, and that’s not a very Christian thing to do.
Realistically I probably lost a shallow relationship, but I think I’m grieving over the potential and the fact that it was lost because of something that I did. I feel like just keeping to myself and that way for sure no one would ever hurt me again.
Wildflower,
please stay away from this guy, he´s just getting some cheap thrills – by leading you on, having two women speculate about him, using you for work issues.
The other thing that bothers me in this scenario, is why would you want to be friends with a guy you have feelings for and who doesn´t feel the same about you? That would be just accepting some crumbs. He isn´t any sort of catch, don´t put him on a pedestal!
As for the Christian thing, it is very different to say you are religious and to go through all the motions of a church´s ceremonies and rites. It doesn´t mean a thing if it isn´t lived internally, if his actions don´t align with his Christian morals and values. There are lots of atheists out there who are much more decent and caring and deserving of you than this so-called religious boy. Declaring himself religious isn´t an excuse to treat you like this, don´t buy into that bs.
Lilia,
Thank you for your reply! You’ve asked some good questions and I ask myself these too- especially why I’d want to stay friends. He liked me first, then I reciprocated, then he backed off. So, why stay friends? I thought there was potential there for an awesome friendship.
Being so devout gave me a false sense of safety and I never thought he could hurt me. I’ve been hurt in relationships before, as we all have, so I guess I thought he’d treat me with respect.
I’d see how his actions didn’t match what he professed to be his faith, and that left me wondering if I’d done anything wrong.
I think it’s a self-esteem thing with me. You’d never know it to look at me, I appear confident, I’ve got a great career, I’ve been paid one or two compliments over the years; yet this non-friendship has messed me up for no reason. It’s not like we dated, it’s not like we shared a lot of personal time- only time during work. Maybe I thought that we could develop a close friendship that would bring joy to my life. In the end, it’s brought me misery that is not proportional to the minimal relationship.
I’ve felt hurt by him, ignored, not appreciated and yet I hung around hoping for validation from him. Not looking for it from myself- but seeking approval.
The odd thing is that he isn’t normally someone I’d be attracted to, physically, or emotionally; yet I looked at all the intimate sharing we did and all of a sudden he was cute to me and I was attracted.
It’s all a bit messed up, I know this and I am working really hard to put it behind me. I sound so completely desperate and am not normally like this, but I think it all happened during a very vulnerable point in my life and I was looking for a friend and trying to turn him into one when he couldn’t possibly be the type of friend I needed.
Thank you so much for your honesty.
Dear Wildflower,
You have not done anything wrong regarding this situation. For someone who states that he is religious, it does not seem like a christian thing to do in setting you up for a fall. You saw potential in his ‘representative’ the guy who he wants everyone to THINK he is but not the guy he ACTUALLY is. Don’t invest your time and energy, if this is how he is in the beginning, trust me, he will have many more manipulative mind games to play.
WildFlower:
He’s NOT the least bit religious…that’s an illusion. It’s his shtick, his game to make himself look like a good, decent person. He’s not. Also, he’s playing you. You DID NOTHING to ruin the friendship. There is no friendship. He’s manipulating and using you for his own amusements. Stop talking, e-mailing, going to lunch, sending texts and/or smoke signals. Take your power back and IGNORE this little boy masquerading as a man. Also, scroll up and read revolution’s post. It pertains to your situation and will help.
Dear Wildflower, totally agree with all thats been said by La Pintura Belle, you need to flush this guy and you are way to decent for him.
Hi Truth=Freedom,
I will try to flush him 🙂 and thank you fro saying I’m decent. I’ve been feeling like a cold-hearted bitch who hurt him. I have been so hard on myself in this “friendship” because I thought that I was repelling him. It really hurt hearing that he spent all this time with other people, had other female friends whom he spent time with after work, yet I was never one of them and he always said we were good friends. Well, my good friends feel appreciated and that’s one thing I never felt like with him. Lately I felt as if I was more of an annoyance than anything else.
Thank you again, your support means so much and little by little I’m realizing I was not to blame with all those stupid things said- you’re right, I was being honest and maybe he was pissed because I found him out.
La Pintura Bella,
I appreciate your thought on my messed up tale. The more I think about it, the more I feel like he used me to help him with his work stuff and when that was over, there was no need for me anymore.
It hasn’t been perfect- I’ve seen signs of him being sensitive and on a couple of occasions he misunderstood something, reacted, and never apologized.
He hides behind email, yet was angry at me for emailing him about the woman friend. I was so upset that I hurt him and was literally sick about it all last week, yet he didn’t have the decency to put my mind at ease by emailing me right away, or calling me. It’s like I don’t even matter. Yet that woman who fed me the garbage is the victim in his eyes.
I don’t know how I allowed myself to get messed up in this when it was pretty clear that he was not being a gentleman or showing me with the respect due a real friend.
I’ve read Revolution’s post and will be doing my best to take my power back. As others have said about their short-term “thing”, this has really affected my self-esteem and I also feel like dignity was trampled over- first by him, then I pretty much invited him to repeat that step several times.
I made a mistake not trusting my gut, kept on investing into a non-friendship, and did so thinking that this year would be different for me; that Christmas would find me in better spirits because I had someone true in my life who loved me unconditionally; in the end, I was deluding myself. He has always been about conditions and I have never measured up.
Revolution … yep. Hello clarity!! Crystal clear. 🙂 And the great thing … we can fix the problem.
Wow! Great post and great comments. Every time I think about posting my story, I hesitate because so many elements have been covered here by those of you who have gone through these emotional situations. It’s so difficult for me to get closure and a few comments really resonated with me. I am trying to be honest about what kinds of signs and language this man gave to me from our first communication on. Very early, the red flags went up – actually they went up immediately when we first met. For the longest time, I’ve been down on myself for ignoring the numerous AC signs, but now I’m remembering all of these signs as a way to move on – to see how I let my attraction and hormones cloud my logic. This admission that I am feeling, sensitive person looking for love wanted to believe that he had all of these perfect qualities. This is helping me get closure. Also, for anyone who is on the Internet: if you meet anyone online who has even one inconsistency in their online profile or what they say to you – RUN! So many times, the same thing happened, but I finally learned. It’s analogous to just forgetting about closure and just shutting the door. We don’t have to keep making the same mistakes over and over again – we can just do it already and walk away.
Thats the hardest thing , trying to make sense of it all . you can drive yourself crazy looking for a glimmer that maybe they did care yada yada yada .I could kick myself now with not reading the signs but i was to ni eve . so in a way iits a blessing that ive been taught my lesson It has made me more comfatable with saying no and not worrying what the other person feels like if i say no.
the bit i struggle with is the constant thinking , i know for sure he doesnt think of me at all im history , yet here i am every day going ruminatinating assuming etc etc bout a ac thats not worth it . nothing to focus on . but im not rushing out there and grabbing someone for the sake of it Its very hard to moveon but move on we must x
K,
I agree. I don’t think timelines for healing should apply although I’m not referring to any in Nats books as I haven’t gone back to check what these say. I mean in general. People heal at different rates & as indeed we are wounded differently. I was a bit surprised when I saw Grace saying ‘x’ mths was ‘too lomg’ & actually, it clearly wasn’t, in my professional opinion.
Grace did clarify though she was coming frm an exp of her bio clock running out, which helped to provide context for her view.
Notwithstanding that dilemna, I just wanted to say, take all the time you need to heal peeps. You are giving yrself a wonderful gift! (& btw, you CAN get yr eggs frozen to buy more time)..
T 🙂
teach
You may be referring to a different thread, but my most recent comment on the matter was that four years rather than x months is too long.
I’ve seen comments where women have been pining over a man for well over a year when they weren’t even in a relationship with said man. If it takes three months to get over a first date (yep, seen that too), that’s too long and something else is going on.
My first boyfriend took over seven years to move on. I’m not that special. He waited all that time for me to come back to him. In that time he didn’t date and didn’t go back to his home country. It was around year eight that he finally left the UK. Even now, twenty years later he is messaging me on FB and I’m wondering how appropriate it is. There are women here who are decrying the same situation they were in when I found BR about three years ago. I can’t say that’s desirable.
It’s not so much that there is a stated timescale, but there comes a point where it becomes disproportionate. Rather than keep telling ourselves it takes time when it’s already taken a couple of years, we need to make progress.
the penny dropped for me when I was reading an article about an actress whose husband had died. She said that around the end of year two she started to feel the grieving period was over. She didn’t want to heal because it felt like a betrayal but in the end she got to the stage where she was able to move on. I’ve heard the same from someone whose twin sister died – two years.
It took me over three years to get over a relationship I was in for less than a year. that’s not comparable to being widowed or losing a twin. Finally, BR and a counselor got me over the “hump”.
We are very patient as FBGs. Patience is a virtue but we should limit how much time we give people who aren’t giving us payback and we should limit our own behavior, thoughts and beliefs if we’re not getting payback. We get stuck when we spend a lot of time analyzing him, or the dysfunction, or the relationship or fantasizing about how it could have been better. It’s part of the process but is it really worth three years?
What really progressed me was when I stopped thinking about him (even I had run out of steam after three years) and shifted to what I could do for myself – via BR and a no-BS counselor, a man incidentally, Maybe it’s sexist, but I didn’t want to spend hour after hour of my precious time doing the female-analysis thing.
We don’t do enough just for ourselves. It’s what can he do for me, how can he give me closure? We want external validation. You don’t need anyone else’s validation. You don’t need mine. If you want to spend another ten years or more healing you don’t have to convince me. You do that. Ironically, when you give yourself that permission you find that you turn the corner quite suddenly and quickly.
The problem isn’t that he thinks we aren’t worthy, or that he thinks we don’t deserve a loving relationship, or he thinks we deserve to be abused. WE think it or we wouldn’t be protesting so much that we don’t. I know you don’t, I know I didn’t Who do I need to convince of that? No-one. I forgave my mother and there is no way on earth she is able to grasp what she did (she doesn’t’ even know what day of the week it is). She doesn’t have to know. I know. It was possible for me to forgive her because I forgave myself for being small, weak, quiet, helpless. If we are in these relationships, if we spending a lot of time thinking about the ex-relationships, on some level we think we think we deserve them/don’t deserve better/ are incapable of better. Otherwise we would do what many women do (and possibly what more men do) and what I do now – walk away without even questioning what it says about me. It says nothing.
it doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks. It doesn’t matter what I think. But for what it’s worth I think you ‘ve been through terrible experiences, you are fighting back and you will get out the other side free from what is weighing you down .And sooner than you think.
Grace,
One of the best comments I’ve read on BR. I got so much out of it, so thank you.
Grace,
I remember you saying something like that to me when I first came on BR, that the recovery will be sooner rather than later. I felt so overwhelmed then, I felt in my bones that I was not just trying to get over a break up this time, I needed to turn my life upside down and come out of that bad cycle I`ve been in all my life. I had to take time to understand myself first and then it took me ages to catch up with my deep convictions, which of course involves trusting yourself. I do agree with you, there is a stuck point where the old uncomfortable attitude to yourself is sooo comfortable, nearly cosy. I think I enjoyed wallowing in pain.I found myself busying my head ruminating to avoid the scary part that`s supposed to come after- getting a whole new life.Trying hard now, got to put theory into use.
Well, I think it’s the bigger picture that counts. I have no particular relationship to heal from (my one and only LTR has ended more than a decade ago), but I’ve suffered 20 years of severe abuse by my whole family plus my school bullies. As an adult, I proceeded to surround myself with an army of other toxic individuals (almost all my female “best friends” had strong narcissistic/psychopathic traits for a start – and I had absolutely no clue!!!). One of the things I’ve done during the past 2 years was cutting them all of, which left me with nobody, but that’s okay. It was an inevitable step.
Sometimes this is not so much about healing from one particular experience, but about learning what the word “normal interpersonal relationship” means AT ALL. Basically, you need to learn VERY IMPORTANT things you should have learned in your early childhood but didn’t.
Therefore I fully agree with k. Healing takes time, and this is absolutely not the same as pinning for some particular (unimportant) Ex.
Thanks, guys. 🙂
I’m so glad my words made some of you feel better. I had to say something, after reading all of the comments on here about the putrid and vile things your ACs have done. My reaction was “W…T….F” and “Oh heeeeellllllll no!” You know what I think about these people? They are bullies. Cowardly, insecure bullies and nothing more.
AND.I.HATE.BULLIES.
If I could put each and every one of your ACs on their back and teach them some motherfucking respect, I WOULD DO IT. So consider my words an attempt at that.
Another thing: For anyone out there reading any of these comments and saying to yourself, “Well, but it takes two to tango,” I say this to you: No. No it DOESN’T. These motherfuckers can tango ALL ON THEIR OWN without ANY help from us. And they deserve each and every vile thing that comes back to them as a result of their heartless actions.
((Hugs)) to all.
Amen:))) xxx
Revolution…I love it! They will get theirs, we may not be around to see it, but it WILL happen. And they are bullies, insecure, and complete cowards! Too bad that yellow stripe down their backs isn’t actually visible! LOL
Hugs to you too. Your comment about who are they…it totally made my day!
I’m glad it made your day, La Pintura! I think this will be on my tombstone many moons from now: “Don’t let the bastards get you down.” 🙂
Tracy.
The “ceremony” is in your “mind”. At least it SHOULD BE , primarily. Once you really “get it” and have begun the process of changing, you don’t need to make any physical demonstration dedicated to it being over. That’s my opinion, anyway.
Hi everyone! I have a problem that pales in comparison to a lot of what I read here, but it bothers me nonetheless. Earlier this year I dated a man for a few months who was smart and sexy, (and a great kisser) and from the beginning was sexual toward me. I was flattered, but finally, a few weeks in, told him by email that I didn’t want to have sex until we knew each other better (even though I was definitely attracted to him, and he knew it). I was so flattered that at first I didn’t realize he didn’t seem to want to know anything about me personally other than things related to sex.
He agreed to wait (over email – I know, a red flag!) until I was more comfortable. We saw each other that Sunday and had a nice day together (no sex).
Then we both had the flu for a week, I guess we gave it to each other. We only emailed once or twice during that time.
By the next week, when we were both well again, he had completely changed. No lovey emails, everything just totally matter of fact. We were both at a party that Wednesday during which he seemed to stay as apart from me as possible, barely acknowledged I was there, even though we hadn’t seen each other for more than a week.
Then on Friday he left for a three week trip that weeks before he vaguely told me about, but hadn’t said when he was leaving, when he was coming back, or any details. So basically, when he found out the details, he didn’t tell me about them. Apparently it wasn’t important for me to know he’d be away for several weeks.
Then he went on his trip. I felt disrespected and ignored by him and was very upset. I decided to wait until he got back to talk to him, but then I thought – after the way he acted this week, what makes you think he’s even going to contact you once he’s back?? He acted very distant and I felt like I might not even get to speak to him once he returned.
While he was away I did a lot of thinking and it became clear to me that he wanted something casual, and didn’t seem to want to get to know me at all, yet he was all about trying to get me to have sex with him! I ended up sending him an email that said that I recently realized that he was looking for something casual and “go with the flow”, but I wanted a relationship, and liked him a lot, so it wasn’t going to work and I didn’t think we should see each other anymore.
I thought I’d get a relieved email back from him basically agreeing with my assessment, but I never got a response at all. That was 5 months ago.
I know I did the right thing. But I really wish it would have worked out. Our mutual friend mentions him from time to time – just generic stuff. Seems like he’s doing fine and I’m sure hasn’t thought about me in months. But it still bothers me. I could ask her exactly what he’s up to but I wouldn’t because what’s the point?
I know this shouldn’t even bother me at this point, since it’s been months, but it still does. How do I stop thinking about this, put it behind me and move on??
Dawn
I guess he didn’t reply because your assessment of the situation was 100% correct and he is pissed of and being childish that he didn’t get what he wanted and his charms didn’t work.
You rejected him and his rubbish offer, don’t turn it into he rejected you.
Thank you Mymble I really appreciate your thoughts. You’re absolutely right!
I agree. Maybe you should ask your mutual friend to not mention him anymore, either. If he/she is a real friend, they should respect your wish without asking any further questions.
Moving on is much more difficult if someone else keeps mentioning said person, even if they have no ill intentions. It’s pretty much the same as constantly checking out such a guy on FB, receiving status updates from him and the like. Sometimes we wonder why we can’t move on, and sometimes the explanation is as simple as this.
Hi EllyB, thanks for your comment. This particular friend doesn’t tell me anything about this man’s love life, I believe she knows better than that. But she doesn’t seem to realize I’d rather not hear about him at all. She already thinks I have been oversensitive about the whole situation, so she’d probably think it’s ridiculous for me to ask her not to talk about him. I’ll see how it goes – if she continues to talk about him a lot I will have to bring it up.
Sometimes, in order to get over some painful experience, we really really REALLY need to remove that person from our lives, and that includes repeated mentionings from our friends (at least for a while). I think there is no such thing as “being oversensitive” when it come to this. And remember, it was him who treated you disrespectfully, not the other way round!
I know, many people have a different take on this. But anyway – if you tell them you don’t want to hear about him, most will understand. After all, it’ll help you to get over him, and that is what any good friend would want for you!
dawn, this man just wants sex and you want a relationship. you want different things, so you are not compatible. i know you can still be sad about it, just be proud of yourself for not giving in and not getting strung along. you may be sad about it and it may bother you, but you’re still holding your ground. good on you for not wasting your time with some AC. by not getting involved with him, you are making yourself available to a man who will appreciate you for all you have to offer!
Dawn:
First of all, who the hell cares if she thinks you’ve been oversensitive about it??? Was she “there”? No.
If YOU don’t want to hear his name spoken ever again, let alone anything about him, that is YOUR boundary and YOUR right. Don’t wait and see if she gets the “hint.” Speak up. Tell her he is off limits conversationally.
If she fights you on this, objects to your preference, and/or doesn’t respect the boundary, she’s not your friend anyway. And THAT speaks volumes about her, not you.
Do you regret being upfront with him? If you think you do, there are some validation things going on there you might want to look at. As for him, I think he put as much effort into responding to you as he intended on putting into you at all – you dodged a bullet. Take his non-answer as a confirmation that you were correct and feel lucky that you aren’t echoing some of our stories here 🙁
Thank you Skadia for the insight! I believe you’re absolutely on point.:-)
Totally agree with Skadia!
You were only dating a few weeks – not in a relationship – therefore he did not owe you any explanations.
This guy only wanted sex, and if anything you should be relieved that you did not sleep with him, and that he disappeared.
This guy did not value you or want a relationship, there is nothing to hold on to. He’s a waste of time!
I don’t regret being upfront with him, I’m glad I did it, instead of just going with the flow and having sex with him as he wished, in an ‘open’ situation.
I find it hard to separate sex from emotions so I know this situation wouldn’t have worked for me.
Dawn,
make a list of what you really want from a relationship in general, not him; love? care? interest? respect? commitment? to be a priority? not to be ignored? see him often? Intimacy? honesty? ect. Also list things that you don`t want in your relationship. Don`t worry that you might be wanting too much, make that list really authentic and about YOU.
Then put a tick next to what he actually fullfilled while you were seeing him, so those would be facts, do not include what you think is potentially possible.
You will probably find him not a likely prospect for a relationship you want and that you are wishing things would have worked out with an imaginary person.
Hi Sushi – you’re so right. Honestly, other than the sexual attracton he awoke in me, he didn’t give me any of the other things I want and need in a relationship. I think based on the fact that I hadn’t been involved with a man for a very long time, and the fact that this man was sexy and exciting, I was seeing other things that just weren’t there. Thanks so much for your insight. I will sit down and make the list! 🙂
I heard a great item on the radio a few days ago which was talking about a program that helps teens figure out what what is abusive in relationships. This is a big problem for young and mid-teens who are being encouraged to be sexual in ways that make them uncomfortable in order to be popular. As I listened I realized that the program was talking about how to teach young women to recognize acs-in-training.
One mother called in and said her 14 year old daughter’s first relationship was with a very manipulative and sexually inappropriate/demanding boy and her daughter was becoming unhappy and confused but was afraid to say no because he wouldn’t “like her.” The mother asked what the program did to help young girls recognize and act in these
The program director said, “That’s easy, we simply tell young women there are three rules to follow. They are:
1. If a guy is acting like a jerk he IS a jerk;
2. If he IS a jerk this is HIS problem (not yours) and he needs to work on this HIMSELF;
3. If you are with or stay with a jerk then this is YOUR problem and you need to work on this yourself.”
This should be a mandatory program in every single jr. high school in the world!!! Wish they had something like this when I was a teen. It may have helped me A LOT!!!
Espresso,
So easy!!! Isn’t it!
Wow espresso, that so summarizes everything perfectly. I sure wish Natalie and that radio program was around when I was 14. Boy did I stay with some jerks which was totally my problem. I have such a new perspective on our male counterparts these days, thanks to Natalie and the BR folks.
A quick online dating update: I met with what seemed like a nice guy for brunch on Sunday. He called when he said he would, although he did change his mind a bit. First he couldn’t meet, then he could. I gave him a pass and agreed to meet because I don’t do cyberspace or even telephone and I didn’t want it dragging out. It was a gorgeous morning, about 74 degrees, sparkling water, and sunny. The dude showed up looking like he just rolled out of bed. Dirty Ughs for shoes, old sacky shorts, a giant sweatshirt, unshaven, and unshowered. I would have been embarrassed to go out to get the paper the way he looked. I couldn’t even eat. One cup of coffee and I was done. He got closure ASAP. I figure he couldn’t make the effort on the front end, what would it be like on the back end. I wouldn’t even entertain his theories on how aliens built the pyramids, which is something I have to encounter since I teach anthropology. He got the short version of closure. Nope, the aliens didn’t build the pyramids and I’m not discussing it again. Go home, take a shower and a shave, and thanks for the cup-o-joe. See ya and block. Boy, some of these guys need big help. So grateful I’m not a Florencing, although he could have cleaned up nicely if he totally changed!!!!
runnergirl
the abusive ex thought the pyramids were built by aliens. Is this a new red flag?
Hey Grace, aliens building the pyramids is starting to be a red flag for me. It’s my first time out of the Ivory Tower and I had no idea the prevalence of such stuff.
I woke up chuckling: “If a guy is acting like a jerk he IS a jerk”.
Runnergirl,
This cracked me up: “He got closure ASAP.” Made me chuckle into MY morning cuppa.
And this: ” The dude showed up looking like he just rolled out of bed. Dirty Ughs for shoes, old sacky shorts, a giant sweatshirt, unshaven, and unshowered.”
If I remember correctly, you’re in California like I am. But even THIS is TOO “California casual.” Especially for a first date. Honestly, my guess is that he was out all night Saturday and rolled home an hour or two before your Sunday morning date (thereby explaining the waffling about whether to meet or not to meet). What an ass. Good riddance to bad rubbish. Hope the cuppa was good.
Good points! We need more of that kind of coaching for young women indeed. I have daughters and I can see how things are shaping out in their friends groups.
Dawn.
RED FLAG! He’s a PLAYA, honey. You gotta learn to recognize this, and quick, before you waste your time and not get off so easy with the next one. Please be very cautious. See the signs and don’t turn them into something that doesn’t exist. Good luck.
Thanks Tinkerbell! He was the first guy I’d been involved with in a long time and as a result I saw but ignored red and amber flags. Obviously my fault and I have to be more careful in the future.
eLillia,
Maybe it would help to relate to him as he was’. Exactly. The thing is, before I learned of his death, despite the email aimed at damage control (which the ex replied to 6
Lillia,
Exactly. The thing is I HADN’T forgiven him AT ALL when I suddenly learned of his death. I had only let him BELIEVE that before going NC 6mths earlier b.c he ‘had form’ from our break up 17 years ago, where someone he got involved with after me, tried to create trouble for me at work. Even though the woman I spoke to was very understanding, as it was blatentky obvious, we had both been totally misled, after I went ballistic upon kearning the truth, I feared HE this time might try to cause some sort of trouble for me at work, which is why being a bit crafty & aware of the string of the narrcissicist, for once in the whole episode, I played him at his own game & DELIBERATELY MISLED him into thinking I’d forgiven him before going NC. I played the ‘it just hurts too much now though, so I can’t do this anymore’ card, but the TRUTH was my earlier sentiments to him in fact were as real as ever & I was EFFIN FURIOUS. I was also in the midst of serious issues not,related to him at work, so my fear that he might do something to upset an already very wobbly apple cart was with good reason. Ordinarily, I wouldn’t dream of doing such a thing, because it’s inauthentic, but on this occassion, it was called for, for the sake of my financial / psychological safety & peace of mind.
Then, 6 mths later, he emails me (thinking I HAD forgiven him as I had left things & wanting to talk through what had happened, I DECLINED to reply), then the following night he suddenly dies of massive heart failure!
So, when you say ‘think of him as he was’ it’s a tad difficult. I WAS starting to get closure in myself during my 6mths of NC, in that I HAD started to feel forgiveness, but it was forgiveness for ME I was focusing on. F*ck worrying about forgiving HIM. How he treated me & what he did was UNFORGIVABLE. Someone who does that to me ought NEVER be extended compassion from my HEART. The MOST they get is objective, detached, analytical UNDERSTANDING of the WHY’s for what they did (to me that is all, literally, academic & in fact very helpful in saving me from being wretched in that at at least in his case, I can see his humanity, as flawed, ugly & damaging as that may be).
When the death arrived seeing his humanity went to a whole new level in terms of being smacked in the face with the forsakeness of someone who chooses to live that life. It became HARDER to keep the focus of compassion on ME, because he’d paid the ultimate price for his wrongdoings ie his life. Yet he chose that, via the lifestyle he chose to live, so THAT is what I must focus on, not feeling sorry for him (as I suspect I have been).
Here’s the thing. Although I have allowed myself to indulge in a LITTLE bit of grieving over this death in the past couple of mths, I’m buggered if I’m going to sit here & MOURN the loss of someone who almost destroyed me like some melodrama worthy of an affin Academy Award. Make no mistake. Although I loved this guy deeply when we were a couple for four yrs 17 ys ago, he was an ASSHOLE this time around & by whatever means, I’m just RELIEVED he can’t hurt me anymore.
This is what makes it a complicated grief process. I feel GUILTY grieving AT ALL, & relieved he’s gone (although not dead) all at the same time. And because I denied him that final attempt to contact me there is no apology from him for what he did. That may well not have come anyway though which is why I didn’t bother. Talk about a mine field.
My only way forward is to allow the natural (I think?) grief at a death to arise & express itself without glorifying this person in anyway, & to continue to keep the focus on ME & rebuilding my life with regards to other issues which I am doing.
Thanks Lillia. You made me think. I needed that. x
PS I should clarify. My closure with HIM was INSTANT the moment I learned the truth. No if, buts, or maybe’s there. I actually never spoke to him again after that. Why would I? I have sufficient self esteem not to entertain such outrageous BS!
When I say I was starting to get closure in the 6 mths of NC at the end, I mean for ME, within MYSELF, & in terms of understanding HOW was it that I had been so terribly misled by this cretin. I was blaming myself & had a lot of work to do in that area. I’m a lot clearer on this now.
Sounds like you’re on the right track, Teach. The grieving process doesn’t change, even if the person is an AC, a narcissist, toxic, etc. We still gotta grieve them. I remember cutting my “best friend” of 15 years off a couple of years ago, because she is a narcissist. Though I sound like a tough nut, I’m actually quite a softy and I give people the benefit of the doubt and don’t expect perfection from my friends. But I could no longer have her in my life. It was literally traumatizing me, her constant, unapologetically controlling and manipulative behavior. So imagine my surprise when I found myself mourning her. Even though I was RELIEVED as HELL and didn’t look back when I went NC with her.
Thank God we have hearts that mourn. I shudder to think of the alternative. I’d rather live in technicolor than black and white. I know you would too, Teach.
Just remember, as you’re going through this process: Just because you’re doing the “right” and “healthy” thing doesn’t mean it won’t hurt. You’re just getting through the eye of the storm right now. Please don’t think I’m oversimplifying it, as I’m doing anything but. But getting closure can be a downright bitch sometimes. Even when it’s from ourselves.
You’re a pretty saavy chick, Teach, so I know you know all of this. I just wanted to say it to you from outside your own head.
OK, I thought I had a hold of this – and I don’t think it’s got anything to do with the time of year – but I feel like I’ve had enough time to think things over, I’ve felt better some days, a lot worse thers, but it all comes down to this…I miss him. He’s not that nice, I know it, but I do miss the fun we had, the laughs we shared. All my friends want me to stay away – and I’ve been NC for about 2 months but instead of getting easier it just feels harder. I’m not wanting a relationship from him, or even as intense friendship, but I still wouldn’t mind being able to enter a pub and stay for a drink and then leave. Is it soooo bad to be able to still talk, cos keeping myself away completely is making me miserable. Your thoughts/feelings on this would help…
Jemma
Stay strong. I thought I could have that with the ex playa. But he seduced me of course.
Now I have all the laughs and fun (we laugh so much our lungs hurt) with my newish boyfriend without any of the unpleasantness.
Stay away from the ex. You are only allowed to see him when you don’t care whether you see him!
At least you have your friends. I had no-one when the ex and I broke up. No home, no job, no friends. It was still worth it.
jemma, i hear you on that one. is it perhaps a case of missing how you felt around him? are you missing you?
don’t have any illusions about being able to enjoy a casual drink with him with no strings attached. it’s not going to happen. put your hand back in the fire and you will get burnt. staying NC is the only way to keep on healing.
Natashya is right Jemma. You are kidding yourself if you think you can have a casual friendship with this man. If he had no capacity to harm you then you would not be posting about him on this site. He is dangerous/toxic to you. Why do you want to see him? So you can feel validated? I don’t know your story so I apologise if I have misunderstood but do you really want to be hanging around on the fringes trying to reaudition for a role in his life? Cos I can assure you that is how he will see it, even if you claim you don’t. Do what Grace says and Stay Away from the Pain. Wishing you luck.
Grace – thanks for your comment, I’m trying to stay strong, it’s just harder than I imagined it would be. But you’ve obviously shown that it can be different when you’ve met the right person – it’s just finding the right person!
natashya – I think you might be onto something. I do miss the way I felt when I was around him, and I don’t feel like myself without him around. I’ll try and carry on as I am but it’s hard. I just think maybe if I saw him one more time I’ll realise I no longer want him, you know?
I know what I’m saying goes against everything BR encourages but I’m fed up with feeling miserable. I drafted a text to him today but haven’t sent it. I’ll do everything I can first to flush him from my system but sometimes I don’t know how long I can keep up the pretence anymore. My friends say I’m worth more but it’s too easy to forget how much you’re worth and I don’t think I would even know what to do in a relationship now even if it hit me on the head. It’s funny how before I met him I thought I was happy, but now I feel a lot more unhappy without him here.
Jemma,
I have been where you are more than once.
The first time I did no contact it lasted six months and like you I was just plain miserable, stuck on missing him etc. well I got him back but ended up in the same situation when he fisnished with me again.
This time I took the friend option because I thought seeing in some capacity was better than nothing it caused me a lot of pain because I still wanted him and he clearly didn’t want me. I went back to no contact again a struggle and again I ended up back with him and again it caused a lot of pain.
Please believe me you do not want to be caught up in this cycle it is very self destructive and I very much regret not doing more in my first six months of no contact to move on.
You need to find a way to move forward before you wind up in a vicious cycle.
Friendship with him will not work.
I should add a ps here
It was far more painful being in a friendship with him than being with him and even more painful than being without him.
I have a horribly high tolerance for crap behaviour but even I could not stand to be with man in when it was friendship only.
I so don’t want you to end up feeling worse and to change your thinking you cannot be friends with this man.
i agree that being friends can be so much more painful when you still have feelings! after the ex EUM dumped me, he handed me the FWB card and i was so happy and deluded for a moment that i actually took it! we carried on for a while like that and though i was already broken hearted, still sleeping with him absolutely crushed it. and after the ‘benefits’ (hah) stopped, it was even more excruciating because there was even less of an opportunity for me to get validation. it’s awful. it’s like you’re throwing yourself back in the fire constantly.
jemma, don’t get me wrong. i totally get you. i miss the ex EUM, too. or that’s what i think but when i dig deeper, it’s not him. he is just not THAT special, and just like yours, mine wasn’t very nice (at least not towards the end). what i think you are looking for is validation. and i don’t know your story, so i could be wrong about this. i miss myself. i miss waking up feeling great and happy and loved and wanted. it is very nice to be somebody’s number 1.
rewind 2 weeks ago. i knew we were not going to get back together, ever, but one evening i really missed him. i wanted *some* of him back, after having been NC for over a month. i send him an IM. we chatted for about an hour. yep, i put my hand back into the fire. guess what happened. IT HURT! and then i told myself it was just a little slip up and i’d continue my recovery where i had left off. WRONG! i had to start from scratch all over again as if we’d just broken up. and worse… i was beating myself up for sabotaging my recovery, which was going pretty well.
it has come to the point that 2 weeks after breaking NC i am still very wonky, very sad, depressed and hysterical even. it’s come to the point that i now have an appointment with an expensive shrink.
DO NOT CONTACT HIM. there is nothing to gain from that situation, only to lose and any EUM/AC is just not worth our sanity. pride yourself on having taken your power back with maintaining 2 months NC. that’s a great achievement.
Thanks Victorious, I defo don’t want to be on the fringes trying to get a role in his life again. I think I probably am trying to be validated cos he’s killed my self-esteem and I want him to give it back.
natashya, OK I hear ya :-), I have come here because I know in hindsight it’s a stupid thing to do, it’s just I wondered if anyone had actually just tried being in contact without getting burnt again, but I’ve listened and I won’t contact him. I just want the whole experience to go away. It’s changing the way I think that’s the hardest part,accepting that it’s gone, thinking it’s me with the problem. I couldn’t have got involved with a worse guy, it’s totally robbed me of my confidence and I’m struggling to get it back. I do think everyone is right, it’s not him I want. It’s just hard though cos I work with a member of his family, my town is small and a lot of people know him. It feels harder when he still seems to be around you know? Everytime I start to think ‘yay, I’m over it!’ something will change and my feelings are all over the floor again. I’m also afraid to move onto someone else because if I don’t feel the way I did around him, I think it’ll make me miss him more but I think if I don’t put myself out there soonish I’ll be stuck in this horrible place. I just thought at least if I saw him again I could see if I’d moved on but maybe my heart hasn’t caught up with my head? I don’t know what I’m talking about now…
It’s worth saying that the guy had relationship issues of his own before we met, he’d been cheated on and was still hurting amongst other personal issues he wanted to address before entering a relationship. So when we stopped seeing each other, we carried on as friends in some form or another but it wasn’t always easy because he was understandably depressed and scared of getting hurt and so neither of us really knew where we stood with each other. Sometimes he would want to get close, others he would push me away. I stayed because I liked him in my life and I’d fallen for him in a big way and I wanted to help him get back on his feet in the best way I could. I don’t want to go into details of how it ended/what happened during the time I knew him but it was enough for me to never contact him again. But now I’ve taken a step back and seeing everything through his perspective. I’m not angry now, I’m just miserable. I could make loads of excuses for his behaviour because I’ve always cared, but I just think yeah he wasn’t always that great and I used to think maybe he was using me until he met someone he really wanted to be with but it seems that he really does want to be on his own, or at least working through his issues in his own way. But now I’ve blown any sort of relationship with him. It sounds so stupid when I say it like this because I’ve watered the story down but it just makes me wonder whether it was really all his fault. He’s trying to work out his issues and pain like the rest of us on here,so does that make him better off without me because I wasn’t the friend I should have been? For some reason despite what he’d put me through emotionally, I sometimes feel like it’s me that owes him an apology.
jemma, from what i gather is is very EU. there is nothing you could have done differently. you can’t be in a mutually fulfilling relationship if one (or both) partner is not fully participating. no need for florencing and no need for him to ‘use’ you. step away from the fire.
Thanks Tulipa & natashya. I think I need a tattoo on my wrist that says ‘step away from the fire’ so everytime I look down I’m in constant reminder. I need to let go of this,and geniunely thought that you guys would turn around and go ‘oh he aint that bad, yeah go back to him!’ Just goes to show how capable they are at not committing but can so easily manipulate women to their advantage. I’ve got to face facts that he never saw me as a friend/girlfriend material and have no idea why I put up with the behaviour I did. I just hope things start to improve very quickly.
jemma, maybe he is not a bad person, i don’t know that, but from what you describe he’s definitely EU and regardless of the ‘potential’ you may see in him, he is not what you want. be glad you got out before it completely destroyed your sanity, your self esteem, your entire life. there’s stories here of women who were living their nightmare on assclown street for many years. there are no happy endings to that scenario, ever.
NC NC NC! you’re doing great. keep it up.
CC,
Thank you for directing me to Revolutions comments. I printed it out, I will read this over and over. He is dust. I saw my counselor yesterday. He knows the whole story by now and he said if he were to come to me today and said he was completely out of his marriage that I would be lowering myself to be in a relationship with someone who is shallow,egotistical,financially irresponsible,addicted to oxy and married someone addicted to pain pills,terrible record of employment and someone who he believes suffers from narccicistic personality disorder. He said I just seemed so much classier than being involved with this type of individual. I am really going to work on believing that and seeing he has NOTHING to offer me but a few laughs mixed in with tons of tears.
Lilly,
Yes I would like to join you.
Ms option good for you. I hope you stick to it and exorcise this devil from your life. What a wanker! Natalie makes a really good point elsewhere about “How much misery does it cost you to get your drop of happiness?” Or words to that effect. I found this really useful in the final days with my ex narc. It made me face up to the fact that highs were incredibly high but so fleeting, and the lows were dragging me under, making me a shadow of myself, and truly they did not justify the highs. If your ex does have NPD, then you may find it does take a long time to recover from this relationshit, as your mind will have been well and truly messed up. The awful thing you have to accept is that THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING. Yep.All along. And they never stop doing it cos they cannot stop, they are pretty much what you and I would call bonkers.
Whatever you do try not to rationalise any of your experiences with him. It won’t make sense and you will go a little crazy yourself trying to normalise it. And please think about leaving that job. Hugs.
He’s also addicted to Oxy!!! Oh Lord!
Option, give yourself a big gift and stay away from this guy. There is no future!!!
Stay strong!!!!
ok, ms. option-
*takes a deep breath*
brava. add to the list of things i called him an addict. (omfg, an addict)
now. we are all on your side. you stay on your side, too. it is going to get tougher from here, but you stick to your guns, stay in counseling, keep reading what revs wrote, keep doing what you must do for yourself and do. not. give. up. IF you stick to this, you WILL be fine. i PROMISE. but you MUST stick to it.
only you can do it. but you CAN do it. it is absolutely attainable.
*sends ms. o good vibes*
*prays for ms. o’s support*
The ruminating that goes on – that’s what makes it hard for me as well – what helps me best is, although cliche, doing the jobs and activities I like. I try to be around positive people, even if that only means one or two at a time. For me, I have OVD which accscerbates the issue of letting go. I continue to seek therapy to learn from mistakes and maybe I’ll improve when I complete another course of medication. You are all smart women and I learn so much from your comments and Natalie’s blog.
I meant “OCD” in the above post. I’ve said it and I’ll say it over and OVER again. Just a joke to illustrate that when I think about this man, I obsess about him and it takes will to forget him. So I just keep replacing the time I spend thinking about him with other things to do. Soon I hope to forget.
I agree Grace there is something serious awry with anyone taking 3 mths to ‘get over’ a first date. Dates ought not even need ‘getting over’ as they are not relationships & our investment emotionally ought to be low, at least in the early stages.
Neither to do I think it is healthy to spend an inordinate amount of time focused on the other party after a break up. What I was referring to are women who have left an abusive r.ship, & paricularly where they’ve been in a series of them, one after another.
Many of these women have never gone back & done the family of origin work which might, for some, have underpinned, a vulnerabilty to finding such relationships acceptable, at least to the extent that they were in them, over & over.
Alternatively, there may be other issues making them vulnerable to abusive relationships which need to be addressed. Perhaps they are drug addicted for example, & the abusive men have a pattern of always being drug dealers or involved in criminal activity which helps the woman to maintain a.drug using lifestyle. In this case, such a woman might need an extended period of time out of a relationship to seek drug treatment, to address her OWN issues, in order to successfully break her pattern of choosing abusive partners. (This is a very common scenerio btw. You can also swap alcoholism, gambling addiction, extreme codependency, sex addiction or any combination of these, with the words ‘drug addiction’, & find the dynamic still applies…)
Nothing about this is about a woman (or man, for it may be the other way around in terms of gender) being ‘stuck’. It’s about ppl giving themselves the gift of TIME to address the underlying issues which are causing them to choose abusive partners over & over again.
For these ppl, an extended period of time out from relationships isn’t about obsessively focusing on an ex. It’s time to go back and examine THEMSELVES & why they allowed this, or what made them vulnerable to such relationships over & over again. This work times time & is best done out of a relationship, so that their choices next time around will be healthier.
That is the point I was making. I hope that’s a little clearer. 🙂
Hey revo!
I’m so glad you got clear on yr friend that was iggying u recently. Everything you said was totally spot on. Of course they need us more than we need them & they know from the outset, we’re out of their league, so to speak (I hate saying tht btw. It makes me feel so cringey but it’s true & there’s no other way to put it).
You see, these ppl hope that by befriending us, that some of our ‘majic & charisma’ will rub off on them (again cringing here, but it’s true). Part of what makes ppl like you & I ‘us’ though, is that we have BS detectors worthy of class A bloodhounds! And guess what that means don’t you? Inauthentic ppl who are just using us for ‘kudos by association’ are eventually sniffed out!
It is at this point, the jig is up, & they drop their dacks & flash their AC tendencies, WE (in pollyanna mode, lol, btw, silly us, see not so ‘cool’ after all are we?! lmao), scratch our heads & think to ourselves, WTF? But they SEEMED so NICE!
So yeah, revo! Top of the class for you!!!!!
Ps Thankyou for letting me hear I’m sgetting there ‘outside of my own head’. The voices in my head argue sometimes! Hope you don’t mind if I call on you to referee on occassion!! LMAO
What up Teach!
So good to hear from you as usual. And FYI, you don’t need a referee. You know what’s up. I just wanted to encourage you. Sometimes it gets a little awkward when you’re on the path and you haven’t seen a sign in miles, you know?
As for closure, I feel like I’ve been giving it to everyone these days. I should have a “Fast Track Closure” lane, like the toll roads off the 405 freeway here. It’s a long story, re: the people (personal and professional) that I’ve “closed” recently, and slightly off topic, but suffice it to say, I’m getting pretty good at it. I always thought it was heartless and judgemental to do so, but I’m starting to see the difference between being reasonable (giving people who have shown a GOOD pattern the benefit of the doubt) and allowing the nefarious a few extra minutes in my life. Nope. Not. Gonna. Happen. Anymore.
As for the friend I “NC-ed”, nope it wasn’t the one I’ve talked about in previous comments. I’m still coming to terms with that one. Haven’t made a decision as to what I want to do, but time and the fact that she hasn’t been in touch tells me most of what I need to know. Still, we will have to have “the talk” someday. We owe each other that, as we’ve been good friends for about 5 years. Even a hardass like myself wants to honor that.
I had to laugh (in recognition) at your description of our “magic and charisma” rubbing off on others. Also, the “class A bloodhounds” comment. Lol, so true. And guess what? I’m not afraid to say that it’s true. Fuck ’em if they think I’m conceited. I’ve been kicked around enough in my life; I think I deserve to have some good adjectives thrown my way. So do you.
To keep on topic, I so agree with Natalie that most of the time, we give the closure that we need to ourselves. And, like you’ve pointed out recently in your posts, it’s usually snarled up in closure on deeper issues (childhood, etc.). It’s a tiring business, to be sure. But it’s the only way out with our sanity in check. Keep going on with your bad self, Teach. You’re a kick ass chick. 😉
Victorious,
You are right it has messed with my mind big time. And I have been driving myself crazy trying to analyze everything. The hardest thing to come to grips with is accepting that he knew what he was doing. I have been living in so much denial. My counselor said that he is evil, no other word for him. It is very hard for me to accept that but I know it’s true. I do feel like I have went through a round with the devil.
Allison,
Yes he is. I couldn’t remember if I had posted that before or not. He admitted that to me this past spring. And it’s so ironic since this whole time I’ve been involved with him he has complained about his wife being addicted.
Option,
Please look for another job. This is a really unhealthy environment for you. It doesn’t matter how great this job is, if you stay, you are choosing to put yourself in harm’s way.
You can choose to stay in the dysfunction, or you can get out!
I wish I’d have found this site last week. I’ve been in a four month situation (I can’t call it a relaionship) where I initiated all the contact and make excuses for all the emails / texts that went unanswered. Luckily the relationship never got serious (other than in my head).
We met up last week and he told me that he was “sort of dating another girl” but he and I have fun together so we should “hang out.” The smart thing to have done would be run away… I ended up kissing him.
I felt terrible so I decided to seek closure by sending a LONG rambling text message the next day to say “goodbye”. He responded suggesting I “chill” so I sent another LONG rambling text. No response.
I couldn’t avoid the need for closure, so I wrote AGAIN taking all the blame and apologizing for my text messages. I took responsibility for everything. I’m embarrassed and itching for a response from him to provide closure. I know I need to move on but the urge to contact is strong.
olivia, stop the drama and go NC. as disappointing as it may be, obviously this man does not want a relationship with you. please, don’t waste any pixels on more communication. you’re looking for validation and he won’t give it to you. write him a letter and then burn it. thank the universe that he didn’t string you along for years. the idea of ‘closure’ is great, the reality is that we hardly ever get what we’re looking for.
Thank you. This was my first “crush” after a 10 year relationship – I wasn’t prepared, and probably wasn’t ready, to deal with dating. I was looking to be happy and feel good again. I should have burned the text messages instead of sending them 🙂 I’ve deleted contact details and social media. I’m NC.
it’s okay, olivia. good for you that you went NC. i’m rooting for you!
OK, so now I understand the meaning of a crumb diet. I went NC and a day or two later received a message asking to meet up over the weekend. I was shocked – that has NEVER happened with this person. I’ve always initiated contact.I didn’t jump on the msg immediately but did respond with some specific times (rather than seeming too eager and saying “yes.. anytime works”). Well, I thought it was a turning point but it was a crumb. Just enough to get my hopes up for the weekend. What actually happened was he called 5 mins before the scheduled meet up time to ask whether I could meet later that night. I said “no, I’m busy.” I text the next day to test the water about rescheduling… guess what? No response. I actually don’t think he’s terrible person – I know he has a very crazy job (it’s how we met), I do think he puts his work first and pings women when it fits his lifestyle. Throwing crumbs so he can call on them when he’s at a loose end.
Obviously I start the NC process again, ahhhh. But what’s the best way to respond to a meet up request in the future (if there is one). It feels weird to totally ignore the message (again, assuming there ever is one).
olivia, he’s just putting his feelers out to see if you’d be available as a FBG, an option.
he’s a non-committal AC. please, do yourself a favour and go back full NC, block his number. he does not deserve an explanation. yes, to normal people it does feel weird to ignore a message, but an AC falls into a different category. he may not be a terrible person, but he certainly acts like it. a crazy job is not an excuse. even president obama finds time to spend with his wife and daughters.
don’t make excuses for this clown. he’s unworthy of your attention. flush!
Olivia
I understand how you feel but you’ll only be embarrassing yourself if you continue this, and making him feel like he’s all that.
I know we all want closure but sometimes – there was never anything to be closed.
Olivia,
Please delete all the contact info, then you won’t be tempted.
One of the things that is helping me is to make a list of all of my ex-AC’s oddities and things I didn’t like about him. Then I go to each one and I ask, “quirk or problem?” Then I ask myself, “Chemical or brain imbalance or problems from childhood?” Everyone has limitations, but by looking at his, you can see the Karma of what you were feeling and let him go – because you realize simply he’s not good for you.
Hi Nat,
Just wanted to say thanks for this lovely piece of advice.
I’ve been NC with my ex for about two years except when I’ve caved a few times by responding to emails. I really loved this guy and wanted to have a meaningful relationship that progressed to the next level. However, he was never happy with me. He would rather sit up and play computer games all night than spend it in bed with me, he would criticize me about not being feminine enough and told me to grow my hair and nails longer, he told me I was crazy like his alcoholic mother whenever I tried to talk to him about our problems and yelled at me whenever he was upset with anything. I stayed in the relationship even though he lied constantly and sought out other women. Eventually, I broke up with him after almost four years together, where he then called me up after a week of trying to get me back, and told me he was admitting himself into the mental ward at the hospital. Even though I was so distraught, I believed that going back to that toxic relationship was wrong and that seeing him would cause him more harm than good. I managed to contact his psychologist, just to ask whether she knew he was okay. She told me on the phone that he wasn’t okay and that I should know because it was my fault that I caused him so much distress. I felt more guilt when he abused me over the phone blaming me for leaving him in his time of need, for an abortion we had a few years ago, for taking away his right to be a father and for being a lying, cheating whore. He then changed him mind, and started being nice to me again telling me that he missed me, loved me and wanted nothing more than to be with me. I was so confused.
Somehow, I managed to find out that he had been trying to have relations with another girl in the ward, sending her emails professing his love to her and how much I betrayed him and that he hated me. When I confronted him, he denied it and said that they were just friends and that this girl had used him knowing how vulnerable he was. Yet, I still managed to forgive him and stayed in contact. The last straw broke when during our ‘friendship’ I saw flirtatious messages exchanged on Facebook and on the phone between him and his brother’s ex-gf. I went full NC.
He has continued to send me emails to this day, saying he’s sorry for hurting me, telling me that we should be friends, thanking me for allowing him to move on because he so much happier now, wishing me a happy Christmas and hope that my life is great because he ‘thinks that I deserve it’. Sometimes there is an occasional email of how he wished I was dead, that I used him for sex and should apologize or simply that I am a liar and a cold-hearted b**ch.
I’ve been strong for so long but recently have thought about responding to his emails. I don’t know why I still care? Am I still in love with him? Do I feel like I need closure? Possibly. Will I be able to get honest answers from this man without abuse? Probably not. I’ll probably never get him to understand the hurt and pain that he has caused me but that’s okay because I’m choosing to protect myself. Thanks Nat. 🙂
Please do yourself a favour and be much much stronger and block his e-mails you don’t need crap like that.
How horrible for the psychologist to blame you, he sounded awful from the beginning.
CHOOSE you and do not respond just block.
Thanks Tulipa. You are right, I don’t need crap like that. Even though I don’t reply to his emails, I think that makes me think about him which is a bad thing.
I was shocked by what the psychologist said. I thought that someone who was professional, wouldn’t attack people personally like that. But then again, he could have worked his ‘charm’ on her and she believed him.
Thanks so much again. 🙂
This sounds just like me!!
I’ve been constantly looking for closure from the ex… but his behaviour has been so different from his actions. He breaks up with me, then turns up at my house with a nice dinner a few days later?? He’s done all of the classic things to cover his tracks “I TOLD you this was casual” blah blah blah.
Basically he dumped me, and I slept with someone else shortly afterwards. Not my finest moment, but definitely not (as he calls it) being a cheating whore. I was sad, drunk and felt rejected by him so I hooked up with an acquaintance…. and he brutally punished me for SIX MONTHS saying that he would try to take me back if I worked really hard etc etc. It turns out he’s been up to all sorts including hooking up with and dating.
The last straw came when he slept with the girl he’d met for a date at the weekend. When I say slept with, I mean –
– removed our framed photo from next to his bed before letting the girl into his room
– sleeping with her 5+ times through out a “hangover day”
– not using protection
– texting me every now and then between sessions (which is apparently “considerate” of him because I wouldn’t have reason to worry)
– telling me about it when she left very late in the evening the next day… he said it so casually, like we were talking about the weather!!
He has some nerve… he’s even tried to say that he did it because he wants kids?! He says that he doesn’t want them with me because I’m apparently evil (so evil that I brought him homemade soup when he was ill a couple of days before the “hangover day”.
He claims that he doesn’t want me, so is exploring other options to have kids. I would ALMOST believe this (he’s warped my expectations over the 3 years we’ve been involved) if it weren’t for the fact that he’s been fired and is leaving the country very shortly to see family. What has shagging this random girl got to do with his future and having kids?!?! The barefaced ridiculous lies are so obvious to me now!!
I then went into no contact mode… and kept it up for two days. He kept calling and calling me in the middle of the night until I answered and said I wasn’t ready to talk yet. He slurred some nasty stuff so I hung up. He texted to say that it is “over between us, i will miss you. goodbye”. So freaking ridiculous!!! Now I feel like a food because I replied about how hurt I am.
This guy always manages to take the control back. He can’t just let me be hurt and want to cut him out of my life. It has to be HIS decision… at least in his messed up little mind.
I’m a bit confused and shellshocked at the moment… but I’m trying to shrug it off. I shouldn’t care. I wanted him out of my life, and he will be. It shouldn’t matter how it happens once it’s reached this stage. Please note this man has physically hurt me, thrown me out of his house in the middle of the night, hacked all communication accounts, stolen my phone, insulted my friends and family, banned me from seeing friends that are a “bad influence” and generally emotionally abused me.
If anything, it makes me feel happy that I had an abortion two years ago (although obviously he was terrible through that) because who could ever have a child with him??? He wants kids so bad but not with me??? Even when things weren’t so messed up?? He’s lying to himself.
Anyway… sorry for the rant. I need to convince myself that this man is never going to give me closure, and I don’t need him to. The last closure he got was sleeping with his ex while with me. This was the first time he cheated on me. The signs have been so obvious all along!!!!
Hopefully I’m going to be free of him soon. It still really bugs me that in his smug (albeit completely crazy) mind, he is in the right and has been the one to initiate no contact.
Grrr….