Many Baggage Reclaimers are dealing with people who have an attitude of, “Yeah, I beat you, cussed you down, ignored you, tormented you, abandoned you, abused your parent or siblings, breached your boundaries and all sorts of malarkey, but we’re family. Blood is thicker than water. Why aren’t you carrying on as if we’re best friends / giving me your money / licking my feet / telling everybody how great I am?” And here’s a good one, “Well your friend Bessy’s mother used to beat her and call her names and they’re very close. Why can’t you be like that?” What the what now?
I’m all for forgiveness and moving on but, come on now! It’s not about bearing grudges and holding stuff over people, and I think it’s safe to say that things were very, how shall we put this – “different” back in the day. I was brought up in Ireland plus I have the Afro/Caribbean culture and there was so much turning a blind eye and ‘rules’ about what so-called ‘elders’ (the grown-ups) were allowed to do that hell, everyone might as well have been blind! I’ve often wondered, Erm, when do I get to be a grown-up with rights? When you all kick the bucket? When I’m 99? I don’t feckin think so!
I really feel for the many people I hear from who spent most of their childhoods not having a voice and feeling scared, who are now adults who are still trying to figure out who they are and where they fit into this world. Some of them still don’t have a voice (or don’t believe that they’re allowed to) and are still scared.
These experiences that are dismissed as being part of being in a family deeply impacts people, affecting their interpersonal relationships, their self-image, their assertiveness skills, and their habits of thinking and behaviour. It can have lifelong impacts because the way in which we judge ourselves as children becomes our reasoning habit that we keep using into adulthood until we become more conscious, aware, and present.
The problem with being dismissive of childhood experiences that have left their mark on us, is that we can be left with the wrong associations and actually not be fully aware of how they’re weaving their way into our interactions. We may find ourselves unwittingly gravitating to partners/people who reflect old patterns from our childhood and feeling bewildered as to why we feel so triggered, so scared, so small, and wondering why we find it so hard to say, Um, hold up a frickin second here! Your treatment of me doesn’t feel right. I don’t like it. This is wrong.
Why is this?
Because we’re still mixing up those associations where we were told that certain things were happening because we were loved or that they wouldn’t have been done ‘If only…’. No wonder it’s so easy to blame ourselves or to feel confused in bound loyalty. To acknowledge that certain things that have been happening are wrong or certainly not right for us, causes us to feel in a bind, because to step away from those patterns is to cause us to feel disloyal to the original people connected to those patterns.
I hear from so many people who are in abusive relationships that mirror aspects of their own upbringing whether it was being abused or witnessing abuse. They feel conflicted about exiting from these relationships because they love their parents (and there’s nothing wrong with that incidentally) but to acknowledge that their current relationship is unhealthy is seen as being disloyal to their parents, especially because the whole family is often colluding in whitewashing or even flat out denying the past. They don’t want to acknowledge the pain of what they’ve experienced / witnessed because to do so, is to allow the long buried pain to surface and it means acknowledging the contribution of those experiences to the current perception of their self-worth and how relationships ‘work’. It means acknowledging that there may be aspects of them that are angry. The trouble with remaining loyal to a pattern that isn’t working though, is that it keeps us stuck and that can prove to be dangerous.
To acknowledge the road we’ve travelled in our journey is not about looking to blame our parents (or anyone else for that matter); it’s about recognising the things that influenced who we are and what we’re doing today.
It helps us to understand our motivations for what we’re doing because until we do, we’re doing things for reasons that we’re not aware of while believing that we’re doing them for different motivations, and this is why we end up feeling conflicted and in our own Groundhog Day. We not only try to right the wrongs of the past but we hinder our progression in the present because by lacking awareness and compassion for the original thinking behind these habits, we end up self-sabotaging while trying to spare us from what we think is a bigger future pain. We may be trying to fight one or both of our parents corners and not realising that we’re actually giving up our life in the process. It’s not our battle.
I’ve learned through my own struggles with both sides of my family that you cannot control the uncontrollable nor force people to see or talk about stuff that they don’t want to see or talk about.
No, it’s not fair and it was a bitter flippin’ pill to swallow, but I’m really all the better for having done so because it’s stopped me from unwittingly having excessive expectations plus it’s also stopped me from putting me in a ‘child role’ while making authorities out of these people. I’ve stopped looking for validation and I’ve focused on healing instead, and a lot of that has happened because I stopped withholding self-compassion. I stopped pretending. It’s forced me to grow up, to figure myself out, and to come up with my own boundaries based on the preferences for how I want to live.
The one thing I won’t tolerate is my experiences being dismissed by me, never mind anyone else. I’m not clutching these experiences like a security blanket, but you know what? These are my experiences and before anybody tells me that I ‘shouldn’t’ have been bothered by certain things that happened, it’s important to remember that if they are that concerned about my perception of them or their part in their story, they either could have acted better or could be endeavouring to evolve the relationship with me now. I spent a significant part of my life being The Good Girl Who Doesn’t Make People Feel Bad By Remembering. Guess where that got me? I lost me and I got badly hurt. There’s chunks of my life that are so hazy because of the deep stress of trying to forget the more painful parts.
Don’t allow anybody to attempt to do a memory wipe on you just because you remembering doesn’t suit their ego. The irony is is that we’d all find it a hell of a lot easier to move on from stuff if the people in question didn’t keep reminding us of the fact that they behaved in these ways by either repeating the same actions or by trying to make us feel guilty so that we will do what they want.
If you’re acting unconsciously and doing stuff that feels like ‘home’, the clues to why lie in your past. To leave it unexamined is to block you from invaluable insights and awareness.
Your goal in allowing you to remember and acknowledge what you’ve been through isn’t to beat you or others up with it; it’s to understand the map you’ve used to get to this point in your journey so that if you want to go somewhere else, you can now choose a different route by healing you with self-awareness, self-compassion and self-care. To dismiss experiences for which you still have an emotional charge is to dismiss parts of you that are crying out to be acknowledged and healed. You dismiss your soul. You are worthy of serious consideration. You matter.
Your thoughts?
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As a Black American raised in the biblical South. I must say there is a lot of turn the other cheek philosophy here too. I have found this does not allow you to feel in process your emotions to make you a healthy well-adjusted adult. Another great post Nat!
Sophia, I, too, was raised in same Southern Baptist culture. I’ve struggled alot with separating what I believe to be biblical principles important to my faith vs. taking care of myself. As you said, they seem to be diametrically opposed much of the time. I think they must intersect somewhere, but I have trouble finding that point.
Jenny, There’s an excellent book on boundaries that addresses that very issue. Boundaries: When To Say Yes, How to Say No, by Henry Cloud and John Townsend.
Bless you, Nat, for understanding and expressing so eloquently the inner conflict that so many of us with similar experiences continue to struggle with.
The hardest part, for me, is still disengaging from those around me who don’t get it and would rather (for their comfort as it’s most certainly NOT for mine) I put myself back in the midst of that toxic sludge.
There is no happily ever after in these scenarios but I will take a damn sight happier over damn miserable any day.
BermieGirl – there is a genuine happy ever after – for you – when you choose YOU over everyone else and only give to people when it is also genuinely good for you.
I walked away from my entire family, new nieces and nephews, weddings, funerals etc…, friends, colleagues, careers, neighbours, new people/boyfriends I met who I recognized (now) that they were toxic to me, homes – the lot – and boy am I becoming really really glad.
I especially wrestled for years over my mother/father but in the end I let them win and I walked away from them especially and what a difference to me and my life!!
I found the further away from them I go, the happier I am in myself and able to work out just what has really been staring me in the face all these years – literally I see the map Natalie is talking about clearly and if I see, where I had been going to, I don’t go back there anymore – especially when I feel there is no choice – I find a choice I am happy to do and make it happen.
It was a process over years AFTER becoming initially enlightened that I needed to put myself first always not just hope for it to be given to me one day. I became pretty sure for myself over this time – watching and really seeing – what they and I did until I was convinced of what I NEED AND ACT ON IT.
The more emotional distance I now get from them the happier and better I feel and more successful I am becoming – growing from what I thought was impossible – life without a family – still with a few kicks and fall downs along the way but nothing compared to what I have been dealing with my entire life and the more I learn and grow with myself and other new people in my life the happier I am really becoming.
A happy life really doesn’t happen outside of you in exterior things and people – it comes from inside of you, if that makes any sense?
Oona
I wish I could do that. I tried not talking to my mother for 6 months and once at work, my co-worker could tell when I had seen my mother again. I couldn’t see it.
It has been a life long struggle to differentiate myself from my family and I see them rarely, but my mother keeps calling and sometimes it’s ok, I do assert myself with her and hate that I even have to exert that kind of energy, but learned that this is my challenge in this life.
My biggest upset is that I have not been able to create my own family, so in a sense don’t feel I have truly moved beyond the family of origin.
However, I find that even if you do ignore your family, life brings other people to replace your family members that you have issues with. Anyways, I keep at it.
Right now I am trying to really catch myself when I am acting from imprinting instead of my true self. Like the moving out of my place that I talked about in the last post…still trying to unravel that.
Plus, I am resentful that my siblings got financial help for big things, like homes and I haven’t becasue I haven’t been able to assert myself for it. This has been really confusing for me because I don’t know if I don’t want it, don’t want their help (I am independent) or what.
My siblings got their share by using coersive or assertive methods and I (who can usually assert myself) haven’t been able to in this arena and I don’t want to get my share through bullying methods. So this leaves me confused and somehow still tied to the whole family dynamic in some way.
I can totally relate to Nat saying
“Erm, when do I get to be a grown-up with rights? When you all kick the bucket? When I’m 99?”
Whatever – In some respects for years I found it easier to stay stuck because at least I knew what I was dealing with and it wasn’t the completely unknown, I also didn’t have to deal with the almost overwhelming feeling of being unloved by the people who promised me they did and are supposed to – this involves you conning yourself into believing you are better off and nicer, keeping quiet and in line with THEIR status quo of what your life should be, rather than rocking the boat and living and acting for your feelings and your real needs.
Winston Churchill said ‘When you are going through hell – keep walking’.
Do not stand still on being made to feel bad by ANYONE.
If you focus on all the little things you CAN do rather than things you believe you can’t do – you may find you become stronger, happier and able to walk away easier from those crumbs from all the toxics stringing you along and destroying you – because it is by doing the little things for us, where we really give unconditional love back to ourselves, not the big showy things we believe we can’t do yet anyway.
For example – smaller things you CAN do without moving while you wait for better circumstances to move =
buying indoor and outdoor plants and keeping them alive, fish and small indoor animals, looking after the natural nature in your environment outdoors ie ladybirds, bees, spiders, birds, horses? etc… making them homes, feeding them regularly, growing certain plants for them, baths etc…if braver, taking others dogs for walks like senior citizens or disabled people or rescue homes…meanwhile working out what areas you would like to move to and visiting them getting to know them and the local people, what steps you will need to move, groups you could join there, different ways you could get what you need to move there etc…
you may be amazed how good it makes you feel by doing the little things and that the unconditional love we all seek from animals is not necessarily where you think it is – if my experience is anything to go by? – there is absolutely no unconditional love in beating yourself up whether you have a dog/cat/budgie/new home or not – and that is the real underlying aim isn’t it? to fill that unconditional love hole left by your non family wide open.
Time to look at the map you are using and try a different route, whatever, you are using the same route.
I understand the ‘I’m fiercely independent – why aren’t they helping me?’ debate very well and until you see that you are going back to people who have proved over and over again NOT to give you what you need (just like certain ex’s of mine and possibly of yours?) – you won’t get it and you will keep banging your head against this wall and ending up in the same place over and over again.
There is a better place to be and it is inside of us already.
I have stopped taking anything off my family, along with seeing them – I provide myself with everything I need, and have no need to feel grateful or ungrateful to people who put me through hell whilst giving others everything. I also know nothing now of what they have/are giving to others (and not me) anymore …its not that I don’t care, its just that I care more for myself and my life now and put my focus on my self compassion need first before my need to hurt myself once more with hearing that sort of information. I don’t even read texts if I think they will contain bad stuff – and I don’t make a big show or dance about it to them – total NC unless and until I want different. The sad thing is I realized I have had this choice all along but chose not to take it through fear of worse and the unknown.
I have found there is always a choice – especially when I think there isn’t and feel like giving in – if you are hurting inside, choose you every single time or you will end up in the same place again….
The question to ask yourself is not what you can’t do?… but… what CAN you do?
Oona, this is one of the absolutely best and most helpful comments I’ve read on BR. Thank you for that. I totally co-sign on all you’ve suggested. I first had to cry my eyes out over the loss and spend some time on the couch being a potato but when it ended – I did all the things you mentioned. Kept walking.
What also helped me is remembering the things my family did not give me when I were little – maybe you’d think it’s shallow – the small things. For example, my mother would never buy a Xmas tree because she said it was too heavy to carry and too messy to clean after. And I operated on this assumption myself, I was living alone, and I still did not buy a real Xmas tree. Then, one evening I saw all those families dragging trees and I decided to try it. I did not pick the smallest tree but a somewhat medium one. I was surprised to find out that I could easily carry it when arranged properly. This made me happy, being a part of the holiday made me happy but most of all – I was happy to fulfill this child’s dream. It was and still is, every year, one of the most gratifying experiences I have ever had. Maybe it’s also a bit – hey, look at me now, mom! You were wrong! But I never told her about this. This is about me. Giving that dream to a small child inside of me closed some hole in me. Growing in a pretty strict environment I have a big list of things that were prohibited to me and that I later prohibited myself to have. They of course include being open about my feelings (both good and bad), intimacy etc. But these take time, I am working on them with my therapist and by reading BR on a weekly basis. But the list also includes those ridiculous prohibitions like the above, certain foods. Also certain garments that my ex bfs did not like. It took me YEARS to try any of the things on the list of “NO NO NO” and to make MY OPINION about them. Uncovering some of those tiny things and doing them, giving them to myself, has been a therapy in itself. Hope this helps someone who’s struggling with it too.
Thank you – I’m glad you found this post hit the spot – I’m not always sure. I am thinking of the smell of Christmas trees now… lovely and I hope you turn many of your No No No’s into such great successes. All the best…
Oona
Thank you so much for your advice, it is some of the best advice on moving forward without actually moving that I have received. I also like your I’m fiercely independent please help me comments. That’s exactly it, on the one hand i am fiercely independent, but I don’t own it and can;t fully see it because of the wanting help part. I remember a therapist from many years ago told me I’m fiercely independent and I thought he was nuts, why the hell why was I seeing him if I was…anyways, I guess he was right, but I still haven’t owned it.
The part about total NC with my parents, I don’t feel it’s right for me or not yet anyways, I tried NC with my mother (which included dad too) for 6 months. It really didn’t make much of a difference. Yes, I felt stronger for a bit and then guilt came up and then I got over that and yes when she talked to me again my coworker said she could tell. All that inner turmoil is mine to correct. I rememeber on new years they didn;t call me and becasue it was out of character for them i got worried and for the first time realized that i do love them, which actually felt good, somehow freeing up my locked up love for them. I just need to assert myself around them, manage them and see them as the flawed humans they are, which for the most part I have. The rest of my life is up to me. I gotta run now, but will continue later. Thanks!
Whatever – thank you for your reply. Your situation with your parents does read in your second post as if you are managing them to your benefit/growth and so I understand why you feel no contact would be inappropriate for you – I agree with you – only you know what is correct for you – like only I know what is correct for me.
I don’t walk in your shoes but I wish you lots of self compassion, success and love. All the best…
Uncanny. This gave me chills: “I spent a significant part of my life being The Good Girl Who Doesn’t Make People Feel Bad By Remembering…. Don’t allow anybody to attempt to do a memory wipe on you just because you remembering doesn’t suit their ego.” So many times the people I cared about in my life have utterly confused me by doing something cruel and then expecting me to act as though it didn’t happen, or that it wasn’t as hurtful as it really was, or that I was make a big deal out of nothing and what was wrong with me? I’m not talking small stuff either. I’m talking about real emotional cruelty. I’m finally learning to stand up for me and take my own reactions seriously – and expect others to as well. It means that some people/family have dropped out of my life and that’s not a bad thing. I was their emotional plaything and now I’m not much fun to toy with anymore. Good riddance, it makes room in my life for kind, compassionate, and emotionally healthy people!
I like your comment, positive and so similar to my own story.. It has been such a painful journey, but I’m bringing my own children up differently. That’s my revenge! And becoming myself!
@Sandy;
I was thinking something similar. This is why we need to trust our own judgment – because the type of people that bust your boundaries to such an extent that you have to call them out on it, are going to deny, undermine, deflect, blame you, ‘lighten up’, ‘dont be serious’ said in a high-pitched fake laughing voice, ‘you always bring up only the bad stuff, what about the good stuff’, ‘i’ve heard this before’, ‘you’re nagging’, ‘cant you see i have work to do and you’re going on and on about…’ etc etc etc.
So in some ways the final act of self-trust and wholeness is to see someone’s ass-canoe-ery (i made that up just now) and just walk away (mentally or for real).
You are secure in your judgment;
-so secure you dont need to control them
-so secure you dont need to change them
-so secure you dont need them to agree with you.
And so secure that even if you eventually find out you ‘over-reacted’ in some way – and this almost never happens but its a way to tell yourself that you can handle being wrong – that you will still know what to do and be able to deal with things.
[that last bit is you realizing that you too are human, and sometimes make errors of judgment. And that thats fine – you’ll apologize, make it up in some other way, chalk it up to experience, or realize that sometimes one loses and all you can do is learn from the experience and move on].
Suki
“You are secure in your judgment;
-so secure you dont need to control them
-so secure you dont need to change them
-so secure you dont need them to agree with you.”
I really like what you said here. I may write this down and keep it on my fridge as a mental pep talk.
Miriam
Consider yourself lucky. Many people get that second chance through raising their children. I wish I had that opportunity, but have not, so the only child I have is my inner one.
I found it really shocking to realize how important it was to take all my own reactions seriously – when all I had ever done was dismiss and criticize them my entire life. I was doing it without fully realizing how often/badly I am doing it and how truly devastating it is on myself and my life.
Especially, bad reactions to people having put them on a pedestal – even if they did something clearly bad to me!! Yep not good but not realizing and accepting it either, is worse – just seeing myself as being bad and completely responsible for everything bad, constantly – no wonder I was attracting more back.
If you want to know, if you do this in your life? – for one day – every time you criticize yourself for doing something bad or wrong when you go to assert your needs or voice your concerns, just say to yourself instead, ‘Good job’ (many thanks Veracity for this idea) and keep saying it until you stop criticizing and mimimizing yourself…I am amazed at how often I have to say it! and how much control and power old habits I formed in childhood from parents reactions to me voicing myself, actually have.
Many Thanks BR posters and Natalie.
Great post. I was fortunate in that I understood from a young age that my families were f@#$ed up and had pretty much dismissed them by age 11 and that the rest of childhood was just something to endure til I could get free. By my late teens, on my own, raising my bro, I read every damned thing I could about dysfunctional families so that I understood what I’d missed, the multigenerational patterns so I’d not repeat them. Later, as I discovered more, I understood why my various parents were the way they were and could forgive on a limited basis. Apparently, I wasone those infants whose mother never bonded with me, left me filthy in the crib all day. Therefore, I am supposed to be seriously messed up but I am not. I am the only one to get an education, own property, isn’t addicted, didn’t have kids she didn’t want. Go figure. My question to you all is how does one deal with being judged as somehow damaged due to ones upbringing. Some men, when caught in the wrong, like cheating, used my past as an excuse or think my past means I am willing to tolerate less than behavior. My response was “duuude, your cheating with my best friend/failing to mention you are involved with another has jack to do with my past”. Yep, I was abandoned, abused, but I got over it and have zero tolerance for crap along with a strong desire never, ever to hurt/abuse/demean another. These days, I merely say my family is dead which is true.
So powerful Noquay …why should we let people treat us like nothing , just because we had an unfair start. This is not only in terms of significant others, but this also stands for the powerful elite in society too. A micro shift , coupled with a macro movement !
Yep, folks ought to judge others by what they’ve accomplished, not by where they came from….or maybe just not judge at all, eh?
I have been wondering about this question of what do you tell others? off and on lately myself Noquay, especially as I get back out there meeting new people again. I have come to a similar conclusion to keep chatter about my family to nothing or next to nothing consistently – its working so far and I have an ‘I don’t talk about my family’ firm sentence but it is really hard to fight off the worry of how others will perceive and use any information I tell them/don’t tell them, to either be do-gooders or do bad by me.
Crap really because I feel perfectly happy as the relationship is now and would have been happier much earlier in my life, like you, had I come to the conclusion I was banging my head against a complete brick wall where my family are concerned. Such a good insight to see and follow through.
“when caught in the wrong, like cheating, used my past as an excuse or think my past means I am willing to tolerate less than behavior”
Been there. Done that. Just today exEUM informed me that the reason why he cheated on both me and his gf for years was because I was “not the person he thought I was” and also because “he was confused” (or the classic response!) Yes, it still hurts like boiling oil but I snap back pretty fast now (thanks, BR).
Noquay, I think their justifying their own incapacity and failure to be a human being by YOUR past is total BS. You don’t say anything to these people. You turn away and never talk to them. This is just another attempt to break your boundaries. First they act shitty and then, as an added bonus, they tell you it’s YOUR fault?
Also, when stripped off the emotional pain these statements trigger in us (and we do feel unworthy at times), this reasoning does not stand to logic. I swear to God, I went down this road just today and when I asked just a few very logical questions about how I was responsible for his incapacity and his cheating – he brought up the exactly same phrases Suki typed above ( ‘you always bring up only the bad stuff, what about the good stuff’, ‘i’ve heard this before’, ‘you’re nagging’, ‘cant you see i have work to do and you’re going on and on about…’ ) all in one conversation. Their game is rotten, and they know it. Don’t get in the mud with them. It’s their habitat and you, you’ll only get dirty.
Noquay
These men might be mirroring some of your dismissed issues.
Noquay
Ii also saw tat my family was F#@$ed up, but it still affected me in ways I didn’t see, like the unmet needs that are unconscious and come out anyways through us or someone important to us. Avoidance doesn’t work for a lifetime, that’s what every source has told me.
However, I do understand the difficulty of telling potential partners about our childhoods becasue they do judge. I also judge a guy by his childhood. Someone who has cut off relations might be EUM and he usually won’t deal well with conflict. I found guys will just disappear if everything isn’t going their way or if they feel emotionally triggered. it’s impossible to NOT ever experience conflict.
Whatever
Yep, I certainly had/have unmet needs and faced, rather than avoided them. Again, I read extensively about these issues and how I’d be affected. This is one reason I never did the family thing; I had zero nurturing for most of my childhood and understood nurturing is learned behavior and chose my husband/partners accordingly. I will always be hypersensitive to rejection, especially for race/looks, criticism, dishonesty, my intellect being denigrated. However I understand these are sensitive issues and always will be so I am prepared for this. Since I came from a somewhat trashy (alcoholic parents, drug-dealing, party trash step siblings) background, I am particularly sensitive about ever being dragged into any aspect of that “culture” again and refuse to be involved with anyone with those values. Some call it entitlement, I call it good ol self preservation. I am avoiding nothing and while I do not like conflict, I deal with it, I have to. When I feel disrespected, I step back and think carefully and objectively; “am I over reacting?”. If I feel stressed/uncomfortable in someone’s presence I think carefully about why that is and 99% of the time, my gut feeling is spot on. A lot of us who were traumatized, develop good instincts and are excellent at reading non verbals; these things enabled us to survive and get away.
Whatever
Was doing more thinking on the issue. A tale of three dudes: one had been beaten by his dad and wrote it off as no big deal. He turned out to be not so much EUM but stunted emotionally, he abandoned his mother and siblings, has a history of drug use, many, many girlfriends, self centered, and a desire for women far more formally educated than he which he’d try and bring down to his level through controlling behavior. The second is basically a ski bum by choice, barely making ends meet. Had a good childhood where his dad instilled self reliance in his sons. He defended abandoning his own child and his Alzheimer’s afflicted dad; wouldn’t even talk to the poor guy on the phone. The third is a recovering alcoholic, 20 years sober, works out of town all week, working on an advanced degree, had been homeless starting at 15 and won’t talk about family. I’d take a chance on dude 3. Whatever had happened to him hasn’t kept him from moving forward, taking responsibility for himself and his behavior. Yep, certainly how someone treats family is an indication of character but that’s the tip of the emotional iceberg.
Noquay
I hear you and it sounds like you had to get away from your family. Mine is dysfunctional, but not in that way, our physical needs were met very well, but emotionally and mentally..not so much.
Thanks for this. When I got acquainted with the classical musician it didn’t take me long to realize he is a clone of my ex-husband right down to the same ethnic group. I got hooked on him before I knew this and when I realized it I thought to myself that if I wanted to find another guy like the ex I should have just stayed married. At least the ex was a known quantity and I already had 25 years under my belt!! I divorced him 24 years ago after a 25 year marriage.
Oh I was upset, but the chemical addiction had already kicked in. It then took me finding this site, studying up on this stuff to figure some of it out. The worst of it was over in 5 months and it took 7 months of NC with him breaching it 4-5 times before I finally realized I could not remain with that church because of that.
I have some friends at that church which I have been attending for the past year. So it’s not like they are good old friends. I have since found another church and am starting to attend that.
I don’t deserve the disrespect, game playing and stalking behavior that was starting to become evident. We didn’t even have a relationship and he tried to dominate me. No, no no one does NOT do that to me. It was painful though because he played the instrument so beautifully and sometimes I got a glimpse of his beauty, the beauty that we all have as
humans as our base quality. It was a good demostration for me.
Having said all this, darn it, I still have episodes of longing etc. I’m angry at myself for being so mean to me. Aargh!! One thing that has worked for me is when I get that feeling I will either give myself a hug or if in public I will pat my hand or forearm and say to myself, “I love you.”
Mistea, I discovered that someone might be the best musician (or fill-in-the-blank) in the world, and tho his “music” (whatever it is) may be beautiful, if that person lacks integrity, then whatever other asset or talent or looks or money he may have is all just lipstick on a pig.
Oh yes, my main comment was that this musician episode did bring up a number of childhood occurances that needed to be cleared away. My father went off to war when I was 1 and returned with PTSD. That colored our relationship for the rest of my life, until last month. I had a childhood issue with music and my father. That was resolved 5 months ago. Trust was a theme that wove itself through out and it seems to be better.
So perhaps this last one of loving myself enough to let this longing go finally for good for an unavailable man. I hope so I’m so weary.
Mistea1 Remember it is not HIS beauty – he is a common thief and steals it from truly genuinely beautiful people like yourself – hense his fixation and desperation to play games to keep what he needs because he knows he can’t get it ANY other way.
Your definition of beauty needs addressing – do you feel the pain you feel with this person – with other things of beauty?
I tend to do a lot of writing about the events in my past that have brought me to where I am today.
One day, when I was looking for imagery to add to a blog post, I happened across the following quote :
“You own everything that happened to you. Tell your stories. If people wanted you to write warmly about them, they should have behaved better.”
– Anne Lamott
Thank you for that quote. It’s simply brilliant! 🙂
After an 8 month relationship with an EUM, addict, treated me like a princess at the beginning then started to chip away at my boundaries and self esteem. I was beside myself and thankfully found this site. I’ve had NC with him for 3months(has been excruciatingly difficult, but I’ve done it) read all the material I could and then realised I was main character in this familiar script. My patterns in choosing same guy different face had everything to do with my upbringing. I’m receiving counselling for this and hopefully with unravelling my past I can have a more secure future with or without a man. I wiSh everyone on this site the very best in their lives, at present, you’re very much worth it.
Great post! I agree people like to erase the past and act as if nothing happened or it wasn’t that bad…I often think those who do this don’t want to admit their role in standing back and allowing certain things to happen.
I was brought up by my Aunt (Mum’s sister) her husband at the time treated me like crap. He now can’t understand (or pretends to not understand)why I now as an adult want nothing to do with him.
My Aunt down plays what happened and so do my cousins or they remember a completely different version of events…at times I made to feel as if I imagined it all. This Uncle will now try to subtlety dig at me, and everyone makes me feel like because I stay away from him it is me with the problem, when he started it!
Yes this is very common in black families (African & African Caribbean). You are expected to forget, respect your elders and “it’s what adults did”…
I didn’t want to admit to myself I was completely alone and have been through out my life from a very early age – it was too painful and frightening – everything I was told/shown was that I was a bad person or doing something badly wrong if I didn’t have a family supporting me. No one talks about families who abuse, neglect etc… it’s taken for granted by functional families that you walk away from them/deal with them but when you aren’t even looking at what they are doing for real?…
At first I did acknowledge it/voice it, get up some wind to say something real, which they would tear to pieces/ use to abuse me with verbally/emotionally and then I’d beat myself up some more for saying something, alongside the original pain.
Not anymore though – I am now totally loving being ‘alone’ – now that I realise it means I can be who I am, feel what I feel and do what I need, achieve the successes I was capable of all along and meet supportive, loving people as a direct result who don’t make me feel alone for real, not just because I pretend they are.
Noquay, Our stories have some uncanny similarities. Sending you a cheery hoy. Do you make Chai tea? I would sit down & share a cup with you if I could. PS In one wk from now I will.have been off ciggs for 5 mths! Hooray! (Was off for 17 yrs prior, until I relapsed 4 yrs ago when life turn to sh*t). Also, I’m bk at uni ON CAMPUS. Still just 1 subject at a time but it’s a start! Lots happening here. I wish u well.with ‘dating/running’ season there. T 🙂
Teach
Glad to hear from you. Yep, my family being dead makes it easy not to talk about them. Do you have to even acknowledge you have a family? You kind of don’t. However, when the issue of not having kids and why comes up, I have to do a bit of hedging: concern over human overpopulation, that I already put in my time raising bro are good excuses. If chai tea has diary, I cannot drink it but I’d be honored to share a mint tea, the mint coming from my farm. Congrats on kicking smoking! Your body thanks you. And uni!! Education is the one thing no one can take from you. Unfortunately, on line dating thus far yielded a scammer and a pretty good one at that; will out him/her to the person who’s identity is being used today. Luckily I can spot problems when I see one. Forgiveness is a tricky one; I forgave my parents (the biological ones),after my research dug up their past which explained why they acted as they did. I will probably never forgive the at-work, cheating AC, nor my publication stealing grad advisor as they fully knew right from wrong with their wrongdoing was calculated and deliberate. Still angry about them, as their actions have had a serious impact but leaving their miserable fate in the hands of the Creator. I will never be able to enjoy my chosen career again but they also opened my eyes; in one instance to the sickness of the scientific publish and perish world, in the other, how naive and trusting I once was; this Ol lady has become a good deal harder but far wiser.
I’m not huge on mint tea Noquay but will try anything else herbal. Jasmine tea perhaps. Mint in food though is ok and anything from your garden is bound to taste delish I’m sure!
I hope things went ok with outing the online dating scammer. I’m on an online dating sight these days but so far have only been on one date! He was nice enough but unavailable (literally as his schedule is all packed out already with his own life goals) so I declined a second date. I didn’t tell him why though. He has no time for a relationship basically (although he could make this if he was more realistic about what can be fit into one life). I wasn’t interested in being someone’s “I’ll squish you in as I can can” woman so that was that.
I’ve blocked a few online prospects though mostly due to obviously wanting one thing. Another was due to dishonesty in his profile and also refusal to be upfront about basic aspects of his life in introductory emails. Again, sorry, just not interested (claimed to work in law enforcement and that this was why he lied about certain things in his email ie job and location. yeah whatever I thought, that could mean you’re a security guard which is not much higher up the food chain than a cleaner plus he refused to clarify what his job on “law enforcement” was exactly!)
I have just had plans for future academic work stolen here also. I created a scholarship which meant exposing my future work area to the faculty i.e. I had to justify why such a scholarship category was needed, and as I suspected an assoc professor has now pounced on the area and is writing articles on it for policy mags etc. Whatever. I am smart enough to be able to come up with a new research idea. 😉
As for the AC at your work I don’t think you should ever forgive him. Just let it go and move on as best you can. Forgiveness is overrated in my book. Some things do not deserve to be forgiven (and what he did to you is one of them). 😉
I’m turned off academia now too even though I was aiming for a PhD. I might just get my clinical quals and quietly work for myself. I’m done with being screwed over. I just want to start making money and working again so that I can prepare for something other than poverty in my retirement.
Thinking of you and wishing you well. Keep fighting the good fight woodswoman! 🙂 Teach XX
PS I’ve just started dating again yrs on ice after ex was an AC/ died etc, & I have the same issue re family bagagge, except I can’t say they’re dead cause they’re not. If I were you I’d stick to the deceased line, b.c it’s true. For me, I’m going to say it’s a
painful topic & something I’d rather not go into (also true). Usually earlyish ppl realise I was not raised w my family from 3 onward so hopefully just a basic explantion will suffice. They r dating me after all, not my family who I have NC with (for good reason!)
One thing btw I am glad about is that this post does not say we ought to forgive ppl for anything. There was a post saying something along those lines a few mths ago which I disagreed with strongly. I didn’t say anything b.c I’m not here to dnlighten or sway ppl to my POV. I have done an enormous amount of work on the topic of forgiveness spanning 25+ years, including live in retreats (group & 1-1) with Jesuits etc & I finally realised it’s ok not to forgive esp when serious transgressions are ongoing. Some may choose to forgive & forget but I am not Mother Teresa nor do I have alzhiemers!
@teachable
can i ask you how you were able to make peace with your feelings with this. I’ve been having issues with this for some time. I’m tired of pretending, and ignoring how I feel about how i hurt, but i feel carrying this resentment will make me bitter. i can be civil with my mother, at least she acknowledges and addresses when she is hurtful, but my father he is different. He blames others or denies anything, and continues to be hurtful. i refuse to speak to him, and recently went as far as to publicly reject him. part of me hopes he will feel how i felt when he rejected or neglected me so long ago. more likely he is not affected, im the one who is in pain now. how do i let this go? any advice?
For me letting go of toxic family members permanently is about ME needing to PROTECT MYSELF and nothing more. It’s not about retaliation ect. In my experience it can help to clean up our side of the street before we close the door for good as that way we leave no unfinished business behind us. This can be important as presumably the next we will ever hear of the person is that they have died (if we don’t die first). It sounds to me like you may have some unfinished business about your side of the street to address with your father. This is probably where your pain is coming from. Once you’ve dealt with any unfinished business it will be much easier to walk away once and for all if that is the option which you feel is best for you. I hope that this helps. Teach 🙂
I found myself crying my heart out the another night as a man I have fallen in love with, walked away from the situation we had. (casual relationship)
We have tried to walk away from it many times before in the last couple of years and have never be able to sustain it.
I realize that in holding on to this man I have been trying to find the father who left me when I was four. See I always knew my father loved me, but he was not there for me consistently my entire life until he passed away. So I was used to having love for an absent man.
Except with self awareness of my past;I am able to see the wrong that I am trying to right.
My dad was wrong for leaving the family the way he did. But no one is perfect. His relationship with my mum was their own business and did not work because of their own flaws and their own pasts.
Now as an adult I cannot make other men pay for what my dad did.
I cannot make another man stay in my life because my dad left.
What I can do is accept that because my dad left me I was left with a whole in my person that I have been trying to plug with a man my whole life. It is so powerful to accept that because of my past,I have grown up with behaviors that were only natural to cultivate to have grown up the way I have.
Its powerful because in attributing it to things I experienced in the past I can make choices to experience things differently now.
I do not have to hold on to dear life to people. They are not my father. They did not create me, so they are not my link to my survival.
With this understanding I am able to let go. When you let go, you often then see what is actually worth holding on to.
Love is a verb, love is an action word.
You are right to say that parental problems and disagreements are your parents’ business. And it is their business to make sure you are NOT affected by this. It is not a small child’s place to make sure they are unaffected by their parents. In fact, most children are incapable of this and until a certain age everything seems to them/us about them/us. It’s a normal pattern, ask any child psychologist. Children think the world rotates around them and this is why we think the good things AND the bad things ARE ABOUT US. It is a parent’s role to take care of their relationship with their spouse.
Of course when this does not happen, we have to deal with it as grown ups. But let us be real – it is not a child’s place to convince themselves that their parent leaving the family has nothing to do with the child. We HAVE TO work through this. We make choices, our parents made choices.
I survived physical and emotional abuse, and I always found it hard to talk to my mum about her lack of emphaty. We never had a relationship, totally dismissed me as a child and now she is suffocating me with her demands…and I am supposed to feel sorry for her. There is no such thing as moving on,although after having therapy I am seeing myself differently but still struggling with self compassion. My mum is always playing the guilt card and I have to be the good girl. My father was brutal and their combined abuse destroyed me at the core as a person. I was never able to connect emotionally with another human being, I replicated abusive relations as in my childhood . So I resent my mum so much ( my father died) and still feel tormented that I cannot feel more for her.
Miriam
I feel for you. That is an awful situation, my mother is also very demanding, yet also critical and dismissive. She was also suffocating to me as a child and today I keep her at arms length.
I do admire her tenacity though, we could have a rip roaring fight on the phone and I can hang up in her and then call her back a few minutes later and she’d be like nothing happened. She refuses to give up on her children, no matter how much she abuses them.
I’ve come to realize that she is doing the best she can and that she has even improved due to my setting boundaries. My biggest annoyance is that I need to contunie to put up boundaries, making the realtionship extrememly strained becasue if I let my guard down for a moment, she could hurt me with her comments.
I have probabaly lived alone most of my life becasue of this and I don’t want that anymore. Good luck, I know it’s hard.
This is a spot-on post. When we grow up in dysfunctional families (whatever the dysfunction) that becomes our benchmark for ‘normal’ against which future relationships are usually measured. Years in therapy taught me I was replicating that ‘normal’ (for me) dynamic by choosing men who behaved the same dysfunctional ways/treated me the same ways my abusive mom did. We do this because it feels normal to us, but also because subconsciously we look at it as ‘another chance’ to get the original relationship right. Until we learn the lesson and recognize the bad habit, we will never find happiness. We just will substitute one disrespectful, critical, judgmental, nasty person for another.
Thankfully I’ve managed to gather self-esteem over the years and become a strong person but Lord knows how. It took me years to unlearn patterns I was raised with and to find more healthy partners attractive instead of constantly being attracted to all the wrong people who only knew how to treat me like crap. Once YOU value and love you, you will attract and only ACCEPT that from others.
Julie
That’s great and gives me hope. Are you in a relationship right now? and do you consider it healthy and how did you get there. I need as many tips as possible.
This post right here.. this post right here makes me wanna holler and jump up and down! Yes to all of this! I just acknowledged a few days ago that I’m still angry. I’ve been No Contact with the female parental unit for 3 years now, and I’m still angry about the abuse from my childhood to the day I walked away. When I look back over all my sucky relationships/friendships, I see her in each of the @sswipes I chose. I am angry that she skewed my view of people and of how the world works in such a way that at 43, I still struggle with interpersonal relationships. I want to be a better me, but I get triggered easily. I personalize things that probably have nothing to do with me, and I run from any possibility of getting hurt, which makes my life kinda lonely. So, now that I’ve read this post, I understand why so many memories have been coming up lately. I have to deal with it so that I can move forward.
I am so grateful for you, Nat, and for this Baggage Reclaim site. I have learned so much here, and I continue to find your posts to be inspiring and helpful as I recover from a lifetime of abuse.
Wow what an excellent post Natalie! It’s all true, and exactly as you say. Best wishes, V.
This certainly explains why, with eyes wide shut, I’ve continued to choose the very same box of corn flakes…..over and over.
Donna
Why did I start crying while reading this post?
In a recent conversation with mom over how it seems that little children have different abilities in expressing themselves on those impromptu on-the-street news interviews, and it seemed to divide along racial lines, my mother opined “Yeah. We don’t take too kindly to our children trying to assert themselves in the home. We don’t want you assertin’ yourself.”
I’ve thrown myself under the bus so many times in my life. Don’t know why.
When I try to step out of my box, I get so panicked.
I am trying to “reach for the moon”, I desperately need to make some career moves, and I need to work on a presentation. But I have been pulling my teeth making myself do the work, and it’s something I WANT for myself. I am not lazy. I have worked very hard for other people, but I have to make myself work for myself. I’m so afraid! So, just two days ago, I told myself to “pretend that you are a woman who gets to go after the prize”. And every time I find myself letting fear take over, I say that to myself. And I am making progress. Weird, huh?
Elgie R,
Here is a bug hug. Develop a strategy. You can do a great presentation. Do your outline (create a mind map of what you want to do). You can do THIS! I pulled some helpful articles for you. If I knew more I would help YOU. Believe in yourself. Step outside of your box. I am here cheering you on.
Sit in a place where you can think clearly and plot out your strategy.
http://www.uncommonhelp.me/articles/overcome-fear-and-anxiety/
That is a BIG HUG (lol) not a bug hug
@Elgie; not strange at all. I concur with the ‘working hard for others’ but ‘hardly working for myself’. And I too sometimes tell myself that I am afraid to let my power out – and its there, it is totally there. You’re doing really well – the fact that you have this fear and are still working at things, trying to reach higher, that shows that you are resilient. Its ‘feel the fear and do it anyway’ which is a great book saying if you wait for the fear to go then you’ll wait forever and the healthier thing is to just do it. AND I’ve read that its harder to overcome weaknesses than work to your strengths – so you should identify your strengths and build build build. Some weaknesses its easier to live with than to use up all your will power in overcoming those.
I totally get the paralysis and procrastination (I am in fact writing this post in the middle of the night while avoiding a deadline!). And – thats ok too. As long as you’re not jeopardizing your own work, its fine if it takes you a bit longer, or that you have to first fight the fear. Its okay. I’m trying to stop struggling with my procrastination – I do get things done and they’re usually up to my standards, but it takes me a while to get to them sometimes. Its fine. Its my ‘process’ 😉
And its only by putting yourself out there that opportunities will come. Slowly, and not always in your control – sometimes the best things will happen from things you werent even aiming for. By getting out there, doing what you enjoy, engaging with others, and just doing.
Elgie
I like it!
Elgie R.- I’m right there with you. My therapist is trying very hard to help me get, really get that I deserve to go after what I want in life. She says, “You’ve worked hard for other people your whole life. It’s your turn!” A few years ago I would have dismissed what she said as just another person trying to get me to buy into my narcissistic culture. Now I’m at a place to listen and believe it because I sooo would sacrifice my life for a child’s. In fact, I am presently sacrificing a great deal out of love for the children I take care of. My life’s important too. Why can’t I see that?
I’m going to try your question and see if I can “fake it ’til I make it”. 😉
In the previous post, several of us talked about being raised by narcissistic parents. Veracity posted a link to a site that addresses those of us who are adult children of narcissistic parents. It may turn on a couple light bulbs so you let yourself off the hook for being afraid.
I tend to stay in situations with men who are no good for me. I’ve know in my heart I should go, I always have, but I get analysis paralysis and stick in it hoping for a better outcome, which really is my own INSANITY and denial. THIS is what I watched my entire childhood. My father was a liar and a cheater, my mother was unable to leave but was in agony every day while he called her crazy and made her question her own reality. The fights were intense and bordered on dangerous. I became a version of my mother. I date men who are versions of my father. This is sick shit, and while I am aware of it, changing this pattern has proven to be harder than I thought. In attempt to circumnavigate this I think I have developed unreal expectations of people, especially men, to avoid being with yet another version of my father. It doesn’t work this way though because I end up trying to instill or force better qualities into the men I date who show bad character traits or have questionable morals. I still do the dance of trying to right the wrongs of my father and my mother by trying to control things that are veering off road in my life instead of just saying, “no, I am not willing to do this” when people start pulling shit on me. I stay in and fight. I feel like I cannot bear to loose. I have to fix it. I know it when I’m doing it which is what is most confusing for me, to be aware but still have trouble doing the right thing for myself. I have to say, being aware of this, even if I have trouble taking timely action, does feel better than running blindfolded through relationships and wondering what the hell is wrong all the time.
Ah, Selkie, this made me feel anxious! So familiar. That’s me with an exEUM. I was reading old posts and someone mentioned “betrayal bond” and there’s an online test for this thing. I have had this kind of anxiety – “If I don’t win, if I don’t get you to change your bad treatment of me, I am going to die” – with an ex and my mother. I stepped away from my mother and set up strict boundaries but with an exEUM I get hurt..I cannot even describe this. Recently it all came back with him saying if only I were more positive and brought more light instead of slamming him than maybe he would have “chosen” me (mind you, a month ago he claimed to love me yet again, then 3 days after he disappeared, and I can’t count how many times he told me he “was breaking up” with his gf and yet, here he is – same girlfriend still). I am rambling, but the point is that he broke his promise to me twice, once my life indeed depend on this, and the second time (yesterday) I thought I did not expect him to stand by his word and thought I knew it was all just bs anyway, he still failed miserably, still tried to conceal it and then when I calmly pointed out that this is absolutely consistent with how he’s been acting towards any promises he made, he blamed me for being so gloom and pessimistic and that’s why he “doesn’t feel positive” about “our future anymore”. Anyway, I did not discuss this with him any more. Stepped away immediately (I used to cry on the phone, come to his apartment to let him convince me that he is gonna make it better and all other embarrassing things) but the hurt was real. I got scared by how IMMENSE it was. And I have no logical explanation for this. None. I just know that all I can do now is to accept this pain and breathe through it. But still, after years, his failing me or his promises hurts like nothing else. I know it is something in ME that hurts. He’ll always fail and use and blah blah. I don’t care so much about what he does, but I care to stop this awful anxiety it makes me feel.
The ONLY time when I did not feel even a glimpse of pain in a similar scenario with him was when I started falling in love with someone else. It was a pure coincidence and we both decided not to pursue it (the timing was wrong) but I am thinking know – it is as if I was 100% protected by the love of this reliable, invested in us man and the anxiety of having to communicate with an exEUM was not there at all. I felt bored really. Bored by the same old patterns and same old stories how his cheating was my fault.
Now how do I get MYSELF this love that protects me from people like an exEUM and the rejection they breed? How do I accumulate this protective love for myself myself? Ha!
Why,
Thank you for the comment you left for me above. I agree with you wholeheartdly on that.
You ask how to give yourself that love that will protect you from people like your ex? I’ve started to experience that kind of love for myself and although it has not been easy I really feel the diffference.
I started to connect with my own spirituality and purpose in life. I realised the hole I was so desperate to plug couold be filled with conncecting to the things from my childhood that I loved the most. For me this was writing. What is it for you?
I’ve alwyas been quite religious/spiritual but it fell by the wayside with my experience with the EU ex, I had no time for myself. My mind was completely taken up with the ex. Now i have time to cultivate my beliefs about life and it broadens out my thinking past men and i am able to see what I want as a whole. Not just in terms of a man.
I meditate, I take it easy, i rest, i clean, I speand time nurturuing my friendships. – I will not lie, this does not give instant gratification like a toxic relationship does. But it builds steadiness and stable happiness that does not shift drastically accroding to anyone else’s moods or actions.
Hope this helps somewhat.
Bxx
In short…take the focus off him – bring it back to you.
Thanks, Boo. I do all the things you mention but sometimes get impatient at how slow the recovery is. Sometimes it seems that this is for life. Codependency is compared to alcoholism after all.
I think the key to trusting yourself is;
– knowing how you really feel
– doing something about it
– re-looking at the situation
– with as much acceptance or non-judgment toward yourself and other people
– and a feeling of openness to the future; other things will happen, one ‘lost opportunity’ (which is how we sometimes see ACs) doesnt mean its the end of the road.
I’ve recently found that when I’m stressed, it helps to feel that feeling, identify it, and then I will just opt out of the situation. I dont do this when I’m working unless its really bad, and I dont do it with friends so its not like I’m avoiding important things. If I’m stressed, and I go out with friends — I end up feeling better. If I go out with others that are wearing their insecurities and whining-ness on their sleeve, I make myself smaller and smaller and try to disappear and I end the conversation just totally exhausted. So now I just avoid those people. I dont engage with them, they are on their own trip, and they want someone to validate their whining and I can do that for a bit but then I’m done.
So many of us on here are so busy defending boundaries and pandering to fools that we dont manage to identify the good influences in our life. Every minute spent on something or someone that isn’t authentic, is sapping your energy and joy. So learning to identify what is ‘authentic’, what is real, what is real joy is part of this. How many ACs / EUs involved us feeling ‘real’ joy?
I think there’s a biological component to women’s desire to be mommies/caretakers/problem solvers — it’s not all about having a dysfunctional childhood. Two of the worst codependents I know came from — from what I can tell — supportive, consistent, loving parents who are still there for them even in childhood. In fact, both of them have told me that because they came from almost idyllic childhoods, they were completely unprepared for males who took advantage of their trusting/giving natures. It never occurred to them that there would be men who would, for example, say “I love you” while lying/cheating/creating drama and distance. Because of that, they thought they surely must be misreading things, and kept plugging away. In their 40s, both are starting to wisen up. And let’s not forget pop culture — is there a movie or book or song that doesn’t propagate the notion that a bad boy will come around with the love and patience of a good woman? Yes, we can look to our childhoods, but really, this kind of message is all around us, and our own DNA plays into wanting to “help” and care for self-destructive adults.
Diane
You’re spot on. Those of us older chix were taught to put ourselves last, to serve others only throughout childhood. Putting oneself first was called being selfish. To this day, being independent, self sufficient gets a woman called a man hater and often, a Lesbian regardless of ones actual sexual orientation and that sadly, men in ones community are often less skilled and reliable. Bioligically, we women essentially ran the community, produced the majority of food and other tnecessary things whereas men were protectors. In modern society, men self identify with career, if a successful career is not possible under current circumstances, many men kinda just give up rather than try harder to lift oneself up as many women do. Wanting an equal in terms of competence, healthiness, degree of self care, work ethic, intellectual ability, gets you called elitist. Being alone rather than settling for a human repair project, also gets women stigmatised. One is blamed, punished for being solo. No one does any of this to men. Pop culture really damns the strong woman.A collective stupid catch-22. No small wonder that many women do the Florence thing or take on bad boys. I am afraid that with the younger generations, with a greater difference in earning potential/educational attainment/greater economic hardship, this will become an even more serious issue.
Sorry, I meant “even in adulthood.” Wish there was an edit button 🙂
@Diane: I think your lapsus is very meaningful (aren’t they all). Your friends have overbearing parents who interfere in their adult lives thus keeping them in a childhood (read: submissive) position.
I used to think like you say: I had an “idyllic” childhood, my parents love me, blah blah. Then a very dear friend of mine died and a crack opened up and swallowed me whole. I started remembering that my parents loved me so much that they sexually abused me.
I certainly hope it’s not this bad for your friends, but they are in denial about their childhoods. No person who has had a decent childhood, and that is enough really, describes themselves as having had an ‘idyllic’ whatever.
V.
@V, @Diane,
I agree about the ‘Idyllic’ childhood as that was how I would always describe mine until I really looked at it carefully. My mother totally overcompensated for my father (he’s EUM and a serial cheater) and as such wrapped me in cotton wool and I lived a ‘fantasy life’ until my sister was born eight years later. My dad and sister were close and that was fine as I had mum. But when she died of breast cancer when I was 21, the whole family fell apart and my dad went off with a woman 2 weeks later and left me and my 14 year old sister alone to cope. We had never really got on and my father wasn’t interested in us at all so it was really difficult. We had just lost mum and dad behaved like a kid in a sweetie shop dating EIGHT different women at a time and complaining to us that there weren’t enough days in the week for him to do what he wanted! He still (at 83 yrs old!) looks back on that time as a wealth of amusing anecdotes on women and dating and never as a period of loss and disappointment for us all (even though he said he loved and adored my mum).
Mum turned a blind eye to his cheating as he was ‘a good provider’ and back then (1960’s) women didn’t leave their husbands unless it was really abusive. The cheating was usually just one night stands or very brief flings as the minute the woman wanted more he (in typical EUM/MM style) would say…’but I’m married, never promised you anything…you imagined more…not leaving my wife and family’.
After several years of his ‘playboy’ lifestyle he married one of the women (who told me during a row that she had been having an affair with dad while mum was in hospital dying – and although I had my suspicions it was really helpful to know that!) This stepmother made it very clear that she was not interested in us either and the family fractured even more. My sister and I became estranged and dad did nothing to try to bring us all together – as it wasn’t all about him!
But, 5 years ago, he decided he could take no more of the stepmother and her possessive ways (how you got them is how you lose them!) and went back to another lady from his past (that my sis and I both really liked). They have been dating ever since and it seems to work well. My stepmother refuses to give him a divorce and says if he starts proceedings she will take him to the cleaners! And both of them are in their 80’s and not in good health – wouldn’t you just give it up? lol
On a positive note – when dad had a collapse at my house I had to phone my sister to tell her he was in hospital. We had a ‘clear the air’ chat and resolved to work on our relationship and that has been going well. I know I can’t change my father (he still calls me ‘stupid child’ or ‘silly girl’ when I tell him my feelings are hurt – I’m 53!) and I try to focus on his positive attributes when I spend time with him now or I am overcome with resentment about how he handled/handles things. And that cannot be changed. Only I can change my reaction to it and not replicate the mistakes.
But many of the problems from my ‘idyllic’ childhood have coloured my relationships – especially in me seeking out EUM’s and trying to ‘chase my father’ for attention/validation as well as living in fantasyland and putting up with crap behaviour as learnt at my mothers knee.
Sadly, I think only once my dad has gone will I be able to truly move forward and let it all go.
Wishing you all strength in your journey’s back to you.
Bellakins xxx
And (as if I haven’t already rambled on enough!) the ‘Idyllic’ part for me was to have my mum’s attention 24/7 – which isn’t healthy either. Mum tried for 7 years to get pregnant and once she had me she said all her dreams had come true. She completely doted on me and put all her time and attention into me. I don’t know if this is why dad went looking for ego strokes elsewhere but he always maintained that the responsibility really hit home to him once I was born and that was a turning point for him. Of course, I internalised that to mean it was my fault for ruining what they had. Although mum always said I was the most wanted baby on the planet. But the negative message is the one that stuck with me. And has led to me seeking undivided attention from all my relationships – which is so hard going on the other party. I do better with that now but it has come at a price both personally and professionally.
When you know better, you do better eh? And NML, BR and all the comments have really helped me to process this stuff. But I do feel like it’s a very big ball of wool to untangle at times.
Best wishes all,
Bellakins xxx
Hi Bellakins, thanks for writing this. It is as you say, other people’s stories help you untangle yours, and it is huge work. I am especially thankful when I read comments from somebody who has already digested a great deal of it and writes with such a clear and broad view of the situation, as you are and Natalie always is. Best wishes to you too, V.
I’m 51 and to this day when the phone rings and caller ID shows it’s my mom, I get an anxious knot in my stomach. I’ve never even tried to deal with the pain from my past, but just thinking about it makes me cry. I don’t have the means to afford counseling, but realizing the stack of traumas I carry kinda makes me feel it’s time to just be by myself. I sure don’t want anymore, especially since my recent escape from an 8yr narcissistic abuse whatevership. lol My term for the very painful and sad thing it turned into by the end. Sites like this sure are helpful though! I’m glad I began finding places like this, and hope you keep up the good work of helping folks—thank you!
Sandy
I feel like that with my mother too. I learned a technique from NLP called The Swish and it helped me with that. You can find it on you tube
Some days it feels like I have so many old hurts that it’s overwhelming and I just want to hide. I feel so anxious when I’m doing my best and people are doing things that I feel are wrong and I can’t do anything about it. Anxious and helpless, that’s it.
I’m feeling it so strongly with my new (temp) job. I’m actually wondering if I should quit. I have a ton of responsibility and am reliant on my new boss to do his part in order for the staff to get their needs taken care of. Unfortunately, he DOES NOT COMMUNICATE! I worked like crazy to get all of these things ready for him to sign today so things would be taken care of and he just didn’t come in. He didn’t bother to tell me. Turns out, he’s not going in tomorrow either (found his calendar in our shared calendars).
I know not to take it personally, but it’s so frustrating. I feel enormous pressure and responsibility, but I don’t have any control over whether or not he does his part. He’s incredibly selfish and unreliable. He simply doesn’t care. I am the one left to tell people – he’s not here to sign today or tomorrow. We tell the staff to get their stuff in by a certain date in order to get it on time, then he doesn’t bother to show up to approve/print/sign.
I cried on the way home from work today. This does remind me of my parents. They were so selfish and didn’t care how their actions affected others. My dad used to pawn off his responsibilities on me because he didn’t want to deal with them. This feels like the same thing. My boss is the Director and is making the $ and getting the credit, while the person I’m filling in for, and now me, does most of the work and are left holding the bag. I’m feeling angry, resentful, unappreciated, frustrated, hurt and disappointed.
Part of me wants to quit, but I would feel bad for the person I’m filling in for. She’s getting ready to leave to have a baby and I don’t want to do that to her. She’s been very kind to me. She told me she gets frustrated and that she doesn’t take it personally. She does have the ability to do something about it when he doesn’t show up (process things), I don’t. I wouldn’t want her to be stressed by my leaving. Who knows, maybe she’d take that it stride too.
I don’t want to overreact, but I also don’t want to dismiss my feelings.
Veracity, don’t leave. You have to find the middle ground between doing everything perfect and quitting. That would be doing what you are formally paid to do, no more no less, full stop. Practice where you are. Give yourself the opportunity and permission to make mistakes, real or according to your perception. As I said I had a similar problem, and this is the solution that worked for me. Very best wishes, V.
Thanks, V. I’ve given it more thought over the last couple of days and that’s what I have decided to do. As you say and I agree, it’s great opportunity to practice. I have PTSD and was in the throws of it and was feeling completely overwhelmed and panicked. I knew going in that this was going to be a challenge for me and I wasn’t sure if it was too soon.
All of the things that are coming up (and there’s a ton) as a result of working there are a blessing. I’m going to trust that I can handle it.
As always, insightful advice, V. Thank you.
Veracity, I recognize the feeling you’ve described very well. Although this pattern does not remind me of anyone in my past (i.e. family) but it hurts A LOT. Obviously, the most hurtful experience of this sort is with an exEUM (who we were with). And although we’re occupying the highest positions and are equals, I sometimes depend on his showing up, on his signing and approving something. With me, there are many many people who depend on it. So it’s not just him vs me. It’s his behavior vs a whole bunch of people and externals. You CAN stop caring. It just takes lots of stopping and re-affirming to yourself that it’s not about you, it’s not about ‘that’s so not fair!’. It’s just a fact. Yes, that sucks. Yes, his behavior is hurting you and other people. Do NOT deny that it does hurt you. But do not bring it up to him. I’d also advise you not to bring this up with your colleagues but that’s optional. I found it to be 100% true that if you pull through this shitty inconsiderate behavior of your boss AND behave professionally through out the process, you get +100 to your street cred 🙂 It does not mean, covering up for your boss. When someone asks why the thing is not moving, you say that it’s because he has not signed it yet. When they ask why he has not signed it yet, you say because he has not been in today. You can share the facts if you’re asked to. You don’t have to cover him up. But you absolutely do not attach any personal comments to the facts.
This will pass, I promise you. Also, a bonus – with time people will learn that if they want things done, they should come to you instead of him. Use his shitty unprofessional behavior to your advantage! Shine!
And, yes, he absolutely knows that his behavior is affecting the company and other people. And yes, he does not care.
Why, “there are many many people who depend on it. So it’s not just him vs me. It’s his behavior vs a whole bunch of people and externals.” Yes, that’s it!
I am working on not caring. I really am. I’m so surprised by how much hurt, pain, frustration, anger, stress and anxiety it brought up!
The office is very open and very challenging to have a private conversation. We were in the middle of the office when we discovered that he wasn’t coming in and the woman training me didn’t bother trying to hide her frustration. She is very matter of fact about it. I didn’t say anything negative to her or anyone else. I asked her (probably sounding pretty darn anxious) what we were going to do. She doesn’t seem to care that another director likely heard the conversation. I do.
Since she is so open about it, I wonder if his behavior is know and just overlooked because it hasn’t affected any of the higher ups enough to do anything about it. Either way, not my business or problem. Gonna focus on taking care of myself and doing my job – the job they are paying me to do.
I think a lot of the stress was coming from that I didn’t want to appear to be blaming him or covering for him. It felt like a no win situation, I felt trapped. I was thrown off balance. I was having trouble in the moment finding that place in between. The facts. I’ve found it now and I’ll work hard to stay here.
There are a lot of strong personalities in the office, so this attitude/perspective will serve me in many ways.
These last couple of days when I feel like I’m off a bit in my response/reaction I keep thinking – course correction/adjusting – like the navigator lady in the car! I read that somewhere and it makes me keep a sense of humor about my *mistakes*.
Got my elevator speeches ready. I’m excited about the opportunity to practice and terrified at the same time!
“And, yes, he absolutely knows that his behavior is affecting the company and other people. And yes, he does not care.” I can’t wrap my mind around how someone could be so selfish. I accept it as truth though and also accept that he will never change.
Thank you for your support and encouragement!
This community is such a blessing.
Veracity, you obviously know that this really isn’t about your boss but your parents. So, take advice from your friend and don’t take things personally. Do you own this company? No. Then why do you care whether the boss shows up and what the clients (or whoever) say and think about him. For eff sake, you’re only tempting there! Pull yourself together, woman, and stop pleasing everybody.
Mephista, Yes, I do. Sometimes easier said than done. Doing the best I can.
Veracity,
I thought of you when reading NML’s post on elevator speeches. You can simply devise a brief, neutral comment to deliver, such as ‘everything is all set and once Mr Bigshot gives his final approval, I’ll pass it along’ or something of that nature. Shows that you’re competent and doesn’t undermine or blame, even though you feel frustrated. Then you can use thus situation to your advantage when interviewing for your next position: how I successfully dealt with a difficult person, and developed strategies to be productive while maintaining integrity and professionalism.
Say Something,
I appreciate your suggestion. I was working on one or two and have been refining them so they are factual without blame. I’ve got to get the emotion out of it. Bottom line it. Such as I have processed them and when they are reviewed and approved we will move forward. If asked when that will be, ‘When Boss approves them’. I also plan on copying the office manager on the email that says that the documents are on his desk and are ready for review/approval. That way he can’t say I didn’t do my job/blame me.
I hadn’t thought about using it for the difficult person or situation job interview question! Great idea!
Thank you for you support.
Veracity,
You said that you have a temp job. This man is a manager with this company. His behavior is probably not going to change.
You said in your post, “I feel so anxious when I’m doing my best and people are doing things that I feel are wrong and I can’t do anything about it. Anxious and helpless, that’s it.”
You are not helpless. This is a grown adult male and you have determined his pattern of behavior. You can decide to no longer let his behavior have an impact on YOU. No one is going to fire you because of what he is not doing. You are in a temp role.
You have done your best. Put the focus on continuing to do the best and planning for your next JOB. I am in no way dismissing how you feel, but this is a temp job for you. Sometimes we can be our own worse enemy. Don’t put anymore energy into this. Don’t allow anyone to have you speak negative about him.
Your energy needs to go into your future. You are just passing thru. Learn from this and move into something better. Trying to change this manager or talking about him will get you a faster exit from this organization.
I hope you find another job but there will always be problems you have to determine how much time and energy to invest. Please don’t shed another tear over what this manager does. When you are gone he will still be there doing the same thing.
I’ve been working through my childhood for years now,and lately, I’ve let go of the anger at my parents. I feel pretty indifferent.
I don’t feel entitled to ‘good’ parents anymore…don’t feel like my Creator ripped me off. I pretty much think you get a life–as is– and if you make it out of childhood alive, lucky you, and whatever your life becomes might be up to you, depending on what country you live in…. I have choices. I’m blessed. That’s all I know.
I am almost there too. It was interesting to read your comment. V.
Wow, everyones comments are hitting home today.
CATHERINE, I’ve been debating with myself whether to write a story (historical fiction) about this music person. It’s part of a novel idea that’s been rolling around in my self for about 20 years. This person has been affecting me for about 8 months. “You own everything that happened to you. Tell your stories. If people wanted you to write warmly about them they should have behaved better.” Anne Lamott.
Thank you so much for this it is my voice from the universe giving me the go ahead!!
OONA, “It’s not his beauty, he steals it from truly genuinely beautiful people hence his fixation and desperation to play the game…” Thanks, I felt mixed up about this. I appreciate you clarity.
ELGIE R, Exactly, I do the same, I go after the prize and fear comes up and is my biggest obstacle. I’m finding meditation very helpful. Thanks.
SUKIE, I respond to your words too. I’ve read “Feel the fear and do it anyway” and found it helpful but still need more. Getting out there is where it’s at. Thanks
SELKIE, I like the attitude now of “Just say no, I’m not willing to do this.I can’t bear to lose. I have to fix it.” That’s been me alright. I’m starting to see this point. You put it into succinct words that make sense to me.Thanks.
I’ve been thinking about your comment on ‘integrity’ all day too. Even if he ‘plays like a god’ if there is no integrity he is not a worthwhile person for me. Thanks a bunch!!
JUDY,
I’ve again been contemplating on integrity off and on again this day. I’m astounded at myself for even considering some one who has no integrity, care or respect for me. I’m feeling like he ran an interference pattern on me with his chaosness and it kind of was like a smoke screen or vortex that I was sucked into. Yech!! I’ve decided not to even go back for any performances either. I don’t want to listen to any one who manipulates the music either. Much gratefulness to you for your comment.
Hi Say Something,
Songs by Joss Stone to share with you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWtKm5WbE_w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fm_tDQLlTXA
Nat you are a Godsend in tough times. I was feeling guilty for cutting contact with my father and then I read this and remembered how he devestated my childhood with his constant neglect and abusive behavior. My family blames me for my absence.
It’s crazy how people can be so blatantly horrid, shrug, and go “What’s the problem?”
Also I recently found out my ex has a child with his girlfriend. I’m not sure exactly why this hurts but it does.
Bellakins,
Your story is so interesting to me. In no way do I mean to insult your deceased mother, but putting up with your father’s transgressions was a serious, deep wound to you and your sister.
I have a friend whose mother I adore who was a wonderful mother to my friend in so many ways. But…my friend’s father was not faithful and did not treat my friend or her mother with an ounce of respect. Though my friend’s mother divorced him some time ago, my friend and I make similar plays for unavailable men.
My mother was mentally ill and took her life when I was an adolescent. My father was and is a raging alcoholic. This friend and I make similar mistakes in choosing shady men. At twenty seven I finally cut contact with with my father and the lying Mr Unavailable I was obsessed with. My life has never been so good since I walked away from my father’s bs. I’m not suggesting you do that to him at 83. (I have elderly family that are very toxic that I still choose to interact with.) And you never have to date a man that treats you less than.
Also, no amount of kindness from a mother can ever make up for excusing a father’s disrespectful behavior toward women.
Some men really believe we as women have the same value as a candy bar. I have come to believe that this is some of the worst kind of evil you can encounter. And these men don’t change; never allow yourself to be treated in a disrespectful way by anyone who questions your humanness or inherent equal worth. Don’t waste words on them.
Run.
Again, I relate with you about your father. I see my 91-yr-old grandfather consistently; (he does not respect women), but I set healthy boundaries for us both and have a deep compassion for the elderly. But my father who is in his fifties has no right to ever see or speak to me again. My promise to myself in regard to him is no contact for life. Not once has he contributed anything worthwhile to my self-esteem (quite the opposite) & he is self-righteously violent. So I stay away because I know he will never change.
Hello Peanut. Thank you for your reply and I agree with everything you say. It must have been so hard losing your mum and having to deal with your dad and the alcoholism. I applaud you for the choice you made in choosing you.
My mum knew what was going on and did her best to be the better parent. And those were different times too. (I grew up in the ’60’s)and her father had said that if she married my dad then she was ‘making her bed and had to lie in it’.
I was 8 years old when the penny dropped for me about my Dad. Why would someone put on a suit and aftershave to go to the cinema on his own? And why would he return so late when the movie had long since finished? Yes, 8 year old me figured it out and my mum just said ‘when you’re older, you’ll understand’.
When I was 16 (and my sister 8yrs old)I had had enough and suggested to mum that we leave. Back then there were very few places (in the UK) that a woman could go to with her kids and support herself if her husband wasn’t being violent/abusive. And he wasn’t unkind to us – just totally self-centred, disinterested in us and really using the house as a soft place to fall. He did provide well for us and we had plenty of food, clothes and went on school trips but he just wasn’t emotionally available. And mum went into overdrive to compensate for this.
I was resentful towards him as a teenager and he couldn’t (and still doesn’t) understand why I was like this. He hated my first serious boyfriend (at 17) and refused to have him in the house (maybe a case of mirroring there). This propelled me into his arms even further and it was a very abusive (physically and emotionally) relationship. I soon discovered I was pregnant and although my bf was delighted (he saw me as the golden goose to get him out of HIS dysfunctional situation) I knew this was not going to end well so (with a very heavy heart) I had a termination. When my dad found out he told me ‘it was the worst day of his life. Even worse than losing mum’. He was so disappointed in me and of course that has stayed with me ever since. Not only the guilt about my bf raping me, the pregnancy, the termination but the fact that my behaviour disappointed my dad even more than the death of my mum.
My dad says he loves women. He definitely does treat women like candy bars. He uses and discards them, tells them they are stupid if they have a differing opinion and just does what HE wants to do regardless of their feelings. This week he was taken into hospital as his breathing was so bad (he has emphysema)and couldn’t have been more delighted that the doctor was a woman. He kept taking the oxygen mask off to tell her she had ‘cracking legs’ Sigh.
Peanut – you and I both know that he is not going to change and time is now short. So I just have to focus on the positive stuff and know that when the time comes there will be a lot of processing of all these feelings to do.
And I have to stop picking dad in different trousers.
I can’t tell you how much BR, NML and all the comments have helped me. Some days it does feel very raw still but coming here has given me courage to start to turn the tanker around.
Much love to you all,
Bellakins xxx
Hi Natalie, I was wondering if you could elaborate a bit more on this topic. I understand that childhood issues affect us later on in life – I’ve spent many years trying to heal from an emotionally abusive relationship with my dad. He reminded me almost daily of ny faults and my worthlessness. Of course this led me to grow up feeling very flawed and unlovable. Anyway I’ve made a lot of progress in that regard, have become my number 1 fan and supporter. Thought I’d made all the growth I could by January this year, met a great guy, he treated me well and things were great. Fast forward a few months and the treatment changed for the worse. I was easily able to walk away from his boundary crossing behaviour – I came to the decision to leave him after a month of just bad behaviour, much faster than I ever have before. Anyway I’ve been trying to analyse the relationshio and the causes for him to start treating me like crap, and so far the only conclusion I can come up with is that he was selfish and lacked respect for me and my boundaries. But is it possible to manifest bad treatment from others? That maybe my latent daddy issues somehow led to my ex treating me like shit? Is it simply that he was an AC or is it sonething I did to cause it?