In general, not just in romantic relationships, many of us get left with a hangover of feeling that as a result of us not saying or doing something, that it’s caused someone to be or do something that they wouldn’t have been and done otherwise. This just isn’t true. We then struggle with either the futile act of controlling the uncontrollable or blaming ourselves. A recent conversation with a friend put this into perspective for me
Terry and Marcy broke up six months ago. While they had some good times together, Marcy in the end couldn’t continue putting up with things that were causing her to feel undervalued which included waking up sometimes and having no idea where he was and him stonewalling her when they had to talk through issues. It’s not that he was cheating on her; he just didn’t seem to think he needed to call. He also doesn’t ‘like’ discussions. She tried to work with him on these issues but began to feel like she was forcing him to change into an empathetic and considerate person that he wasn’t inclined to be. She basically ran out of steam and he admits that in her ‘giving up’, he said some things that he regrets.
When they met up, Marcy admitted that one of her biggest regrets was overlooking some things that came to cause her a great deal of pain and frustration further on especially because it felt like closing the door after the horse had bolted. She’d blamed herself for his actions for a couple of months until she distinguished her actions from his. Terry did apologise for what he said in the heat of the moment and also for “hurting [her] feelings” but that was pretty much it. Marcy was fine with his because she’s OK with who she is and she’s not trying to own everything in the relationship.
When Terry and I caught up he seemed a bit downcast. In his mind, things would have worked out so much better if Marcy hadn’t let him get away with some of the stuff and had called him on it.
“Obviously Nat, if, I don’t know, she told me a bit sooner or hadn’t been so easy going and letting me get away with stuff, then half of this shit wouldn’t have happened…” he said, albeit sheepishly.
“Is that really true Terry? I’m not saying that she might not have ended up feeling as frustrated and hurt as she did, but what makes you think it wouldn’t have happened anyway? What are you trying to say? That if Marcy was a ‘better person’ that you wouldn’t have acted as you did?”
“NO, NO! It’s just…I know I wouldn’t have done it if she’d made it clear that it really hurt her.”
“Well, that’s not true. Even after she made it even slightly clear, you still did some of this stuff”.
In fact, Terry has done this stuff with a couple of girlfriends to lesser or greater degrees.
We continued talking and what became clear is that even though he was put out about losing Marcy and somewhat hurt, he had a number of excuses that he was using which basically lessen any responsibility that he should feel.
And so I said, “Terry, you can’t say that you wouldn’t have done this if only Marcy this and that because if it was your inclination to act in that way, you wouldn’t have done it in the first place or would certainly not have repeated it. She’s not responsible for what you did or failed to do”.
He felt that she gave up on him because she wasn’t prepared to trust that he’d eventually stop doing what he was doing. I suggested that it equally must feel like he had given up when he didn’t really do anything to rectify the situation and stonewalled conversations. There was also no point in Terry acting like if she’d asked him just one time earlier everything would have been hunky dory – that’s dodging responsibility.
We are human and we make mistakes. Sometimes we get carried away or don’t consider the impact of our actions on someone else and then we regret it and seek to make amends. That’s life. However it’s not the other person’s fault that we did it and it’s certainly not their fault if we did it time and again. We are responsible for our actions whether we want to be or not.
It shouldn’t take Marcy riding Terry’s back like Zorro for him to realise that you call if you’re not going to be home until 5am.
It shouldn’t take you having to point out another person’s actions for someone to decide to do better.
When we get into thinking that if we were worthwhile or had said or done something ‘sooner’ that things wouldn’t have played out as they did, it’s like thinking that we’re all capable of Jedi mind tricks.
It is dangerous to link other people’s behaviour to how worthwhile you are because you miss the point that it’s how they are anyway and it’s like believing we’re all in possession of some almighty force where intrinsic value magically alters the natural inclinations of every one around. Ipso facto, someone not treating you well becomes ‘The almighty force of my low value that is seeping out of my pores has caused this person to treat me as they did or not feel inclined to radically change for me’.
It’s not your fault that they said or did something – that’s giving yourself too much credit for your powers of influence.
Own your actions and start believing and treating yourself like you’re worthwhile, but don’t own other people’s behaviour – this makes your feel worthless because it’s uncontrollable.
Yes it does help if you have boundaries (and you should have them no matter what) but you’re only going to know that you have to address something if the boundary is overstepped. Boundaries are your personal electric fence to let you know something’s wrong or you’re uncomfortable.
When you have little or no boundaries, you enable behaviour, not create it – this means the propensity to behave this way is in existence irrespective of anything you say or do.
If it’s someone’s inclination to act with mutual love, care, trust, and respect, you’re unlikely to have the awkward conversation that feeling undervalued and disrespected brings about. If someone is very solo minded or treats responsibility like a hot potato that they need to pass on, they’ll conduct themselves with the attitude of how it’s the responsibility of others to rein them in. This means that when issues do arise, you’ll be working alone and bearing the load.
You can address why they get away with something or it’s not addressed but when it comes to the act in itself, that’s a choice all of their own. You could be the most boundary-less person in the world but there are people who won’t tap dance all over your doormat and then do a few rollovers because it’s just not how they operate. Keep that in mind the next time you blame yourself for others actions.
Check out my ebooks the No Contact Rule and Mr Unavailable & The Fallback Girl and more in my bookshop.
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So so true Nat! When you’re in the thick of it with these guys you try to change your course/behaviors in order to get the result you want. It’s a never ending lose lose situation. When you get out of it and get perspective it becomes clear that a person who behaves with disrespect and carelessness will typicallycontinue those patterns throughout their life. No matter who the partner. Without some sort of true life changing trauma or loss that will force some introspection and desire to change themselves, they are who they are. Have solace in the fact that you can walk away from a bad situation and give yourself the opportunity to get in a good situation with a respectful mate. Again, consolation to the fact that suck it and see rarely works if at all with disrespectful partners.
OMG Natalie, this is just what I needed to read today. I’ve been beating myself up here. Thanks!
Oh Nat… I’m shaking my head in amazement… about that infamous EUA, who would literally consume entire nights: three, four hours at a time on the phone with me (though he only lives 45 minutes away) most days of the week, but would cancel most of his dates with me at the very very last minute. Practically minutes away from standing me up. It was of course his choice not to actually go through with the effort of showing up for our plans. Mindbogglingly, these were plans we made together, many of them were his own idea! the museum, the park, the concert, hearing me sing, day trips, vacation… after a while I knew planning was just fantasy, but I indulged anyway. We even stopped setting a time, like when he called me up to have me look at Jeff Beck at Madison Square Garden online and ask me if I would go with him one weekend, and we listened to some YouTube songs on the phone together, and never agreed on a day because I knew he didn’t really mean to take me, he just got a kick of getting me to say yes and daydreaming a bit. He chose to be the frustrating jerk but I was the one who chose to let him get away with this stuff. I let him manage my expectations down to a point where I was happy, HAPPY!?! just with phone calls, and anxiously keeping track of their frequency… I accepted his explanations and excuses. Telling him how it made me feel made no difference. He knows fully well what crappy and disrespectful behavior is, but he also knew that his sob story would earn him a get out of jail free card from me every single time. Yes, his sob story really got to me.
His behavior was insulting enough for me to let him go very gradually, paved with disappointment, from full-out passionate “soulmatehood” to lovers and best friends to -ahem- special friends to buddies to he’s working too late to call me to “sometimes I just have to disappear”. He chose all those alienating behaviors voluntarily, like choosing to feed slow poison to our relationship. And I chose to take every dose, complaining just a little that it’s bitter tasting, but swallowed anyway, hoping he would stop of his own accord. And the real kicker is, I’d been reading baggagereclaim for the past year, so I knew that it was unlikely…
I am completely guilty of this also….so, don’t feel bad. We care so much about these people and it seems they care equally (when they see us going away) but they just on’t have it in them to treat us correctly no matter how many times we put our feet down. Its a vicious circle!
We may just be in a relationship with the same person….we had the same exact evolution in our relationship.
Cavewoman,
I guess we are all dating the same guy!! Mine is in his early forties, came from a broken home, a great musician who is broke and works a regular day job and gigs most nights and weekends to keep up with his bills.
The worst part is my EUM lives 20 minutes away and has managed down my expectation. HE CALLS and CALLS and CALLS me 4, 5 a day!
We manage to see each other about once a week, I have tried to communicate a couple of times that I need more, he tells me he is scared and don’t want to be in a relationship. I still continue to talk to him, sickening and anxious keeping up how many times he calls me during the day. Right now, he is upset with me so has cut down on the frequency sharply. Why? Because I am hanging out with another man, a friend of mine who is in town. So this EUM doesn’t want to be with me, and he doesn’t want anybody to have me either!
I have tried to stop this mess, but I get sucked into it. I have been disappointed so many times, cried many many nights, try to let him go gradually but he got his leash on me, he doesn’t have to say or do much for me to go right back into his arms.
And like you said, I complain a little, but swallow it. He got the remote control to my self esteem and self worth – I don’t know how to stop this! I have been reading baggagereclaim for a long time now and know the difference between right and wrong. So why is it so hard to get myself out of this mess?
Wow! Thank you – hits the nail on the head. I am still feeling guilty about being the cause of all the drama and upset in my last relationship . Well, it didn’t sit comfortably with me that my then bf was sleeping over at an ex who didn’t want to meet me. So instead of cleaning up his act and removing the cause of the upset, he started lying about it, turned off his phone when he went to see her, the whole deal. And although he ultimately stopped it always stayed a sensitive issue, aggrevated by him spending a few weekends away with her and continued to cause friction. I guess one part of me still believes, if I hadn’t been so insecure about the whole situation and not always made a scene about it I could have normalized his behaviour, prevented him from lying and ultimately cheating on me and our relationship would have turned out differently. However, reading back my words I actually can see that there was never any hope of getting from him the relationship I want and need.
Oh honey, you were NOT the cause of the drama with this jerk. What kind of a person, when the woman in his life has expressed that she’s not comfortable with him sleeping at the home of and having weekends away with an ex that she’s never met (by the way, I would in no way have been okay with that situation either) goes ahead and makes it worse by turning off his phone? An assclown that wants to make you think you’re being unreasonable. This guy was going to cheat anyway, he just found a way to make you think it was all your fault. This is a double dose of jackassery. I was in a situation like this many years ago with a boyfriend who turned out to be an abuser, so trust me, you are missing out on nothing with this loser and you are in no way to blame. If you feel like you have drama creating tendencies, address them, but don’t blame yourself for this situation!
Absolutely true Even if you show displeasure early, tactfully or force the issue it really doesn’t matter. If they make the change it will only be temporary because they are just changing to keep you. It is not who they are. IE If they are disrespectful, emotionally abusive, and manipulative they will eventually go back those behaviors because that is who they are. These types of guys have patterns and often we don’t listen when they tell us about past relationships. We think we are going to be the one to change them and tame them. Not saying they can’t change permanently but it takes some real soul searching and doesn’t happen that often with these types.
“When you have little or no boundaries, you enable behaviour, not create it – this means the propensity to behave this way is in existence irrespective of anything you say or do.” Yes Yes Yes!!!!!! This one took me a long time to swallow. ENABLE! That was my part enabling and/or tolerating. Yes he was this way before I met him – will be and still is this way after I am gone. Nothing I could have, should have or would have said or done could change what was EXCEPT my enabling or tolerance of it. Perfect Nat – hit that one right on. It negates the could haves, should haves or would haves – because it really doesn’t matter what you could have, should have or would have said or done – it’s how they are anyway.
We need a “like” button on here. What you said resonates with me…well put movedup
Same here. Super like button needed!
Very helpful post that both allows us to stop blaming and shaming ourselves but also shows us how we misjudge what kinds of things are within or beyond our control.
One of my own ways of ‘acting out’ is to sleep very late. I don’t have a nine-to-five job and can do this without ‘immediate’ consequences. Well, except that I feel like a sack of poo after I cheat on myself and waste my own time this way. Long term it’s quite destructive behaviour.
When I’m in a relationship I want to hide this behaviour as if it were acting out/cheating sexually or binge eating or something. It’s lame and shows my weakness. I’m defensive about it. And if whomever I was with ever said I was lazy, or needed to be more energetic in the relationship, or that they felt disappointed that I wasted half the weekend etc etc, I would agree with them, but riding my ass would probably only make the situation worse. If they really complained, it might get to the point of me being resentful, snippy, etc; even though they’re ‘right.’
I remember how defeated I felt when I realized that if I couldn’t resist a cigarette after I said I’d quit, or a 2 pm sleep-in after I said I’d never do it again, that a man whose vice was acting out sexually, or verbally, or through alcoholism might have the same degree of challenge ahead of them. And that if they couldn’t/wouldn’t stop a destructive behaviour after being asked once, then they had bigger issues than simply respecting my wishes. It meant I couldn’t control them any more than I could control myself.
Ultimately me working on the sleeping thing is a lifelong, deep reaching and painful exercise in learning to respect myself and love myself enough to take care of my own business. The underlying stuff that made me mistreat partners in the past for disappointing me (i.e. not magically taking away the underlying stuff) had nothing really to do with those partners. If they were jerks, I would be distracting myself from how I create my own pain; if they were nice, I probably would have sh*t on them no matter who they were.
I am really beginning to understand how I must know how to be good to myself before I can be good to anyone else; and that whoever partners healthily with me will know the same.
Re: sleeping in — Magnolia
You know, it’s such a small thing on the surface of it. My ex husband was huge on sleeping in (despite the perfectly natural and predictable consequences) and I was the annoyed partner who was “right”, but as you can guess, me being right did only make the situation worse. We had met in college, and in college it was just him living in the moment, something I figured he would outgrow. Ten+ years later, with babies, and me having a 9 to 5 job, it wasn’t a small thing any more. Somehow along the way it had become a serious lifestyle incompatibility. Now two years post-divorce and co-parenting, I’m seeing hints that his time management skills might be improving! An unprecedented change in our 15 years were together. Speaking of enabling.
Magnolia,
That was so well put and insightful. Some real honest self-appraisal there. I can relate so much with what you said. I have always wanted someone to save me from myself (having to look at myself) and their flaws became a good diversion from my own. I am starting to realize that I am not going to be able to love myself or anyone else well until I get my shit in order.
I was thinking the other day that when I am in relationships it seems either I put myself on a pedestal or them…time to work towards a more balanced situation.
Natalie, that was awesome. This is like those One Time In Band Camp stories, where it’s “Poor me! She left me!” and it turns out to be more like, “I sabotaged the relationship in every way possible and she got sick of it and bounced.” Now we can add to this repertoire, “This woman failed to rein in my bullsh*t. So, I continued to commit bullsh*t acts of foolishness and she eventually left me.” Of course, when they tell the story it’s, “I don’t know what I did!” How do I know this? My ex-AC pulled a disappearing act (At Christmas. True story.) after insulting the fact that I’m half Jewish and treating me like an annoyance. This happened when I accepted his invitation to visit him (we live about an hour apart) and met his friends. Of course, I felt like a total fool after having driven to see him and this all occurs. I spent several days wondering what I’d done to make him act like that – of course, not thinking, “Wow. That wasn’t very nice. What a jerk.” Considering that he had begged me to give him another chance, I was peeved. When I told him to please send back something I’d left at his house and never to contact me again, his reply was, “You really freaked me out by getting angry at me. What did I do?” Basically, what I’m trying to say is if someone’s a responsibility dodger, don’t do them a further favor by blaming yourself.
“If someone is very solo minded or treats responsibility like a hot potato that they need to pass on, they’ll conduct themselves with the attitude of how it’s the responsibility of others to rein them in. ”
Boy O Boy O Boy………………..How many times have I heard that one. The “victim,” “poor me” “it’s their fault they made me do it” “It’s the will of God???????” etc ect.
It’s one the Biggest one’s I come across when working with people. The lack of taking “Responsibility” for their own actions. And it never ceases to amaze Me…………………….How God gets roped into this one or some Mystical force!
I understand and know the “why and the where for” Men and Women act the way they do.
But there is always a reason “Why” they do what they do and that it is someone else who made them do it.
Like the wife having an affair with a lover (Which many women do) or visa versa. It’s the other persons fault. Never that they made the choice, they took the action. They are ACTUALLY RESPONSIBLE for doing what they are doing.
“Like God made you jump into bed with someone and have an affair”
For most “rational thinking people. No one can make any one do anything they do not want to do (Unless Your a child being used by an Adult or someone is pointing a gun at your head. That’s a fair excuse, but even then You still do have a choice). The exceptions to this are as I said a child who is being abused by an Adult or if a person is mentally impaired. There are other circumstances but then that is going into psychological disorders.
I agree with this Natalie “We are responsible for our actions whether we want to be or not.”
One of the first steps in self-development and being Empowered is when We take Responsibility for our OWN Life and OUR own actions.
For after all, it is OUR own Life and belongs to no one else (Metaphysical Being or not)
And we do have total control over our own life and can make the choice’s in our own life!
I know the game and how it is played and there is one thing that “wins” every time. It maybe hard and it maybe difficult, but it comes through every time. It’s one I push out all the time in what I do.
Being “AUTHENTIC”…
Wow this is a soothing post for me. “It’s not your fault they said or did something – that’s giving yourself too much credit.” I needed to hear that but the problem that comes up for me is I know I must be doing something wrong otherwise I would not keep getting the same types of behavior from men: it’s hot and heavy for a brief period then they all of a sudden start throwing around “I’m busy.” That is when I feel like it IS my fault. If it wasn’t (and I doubt these men get together and say “hey, let’s all give this chick the same line”) why would it keep happening?
I own my actions and I don’t spout off stuff like “well, if you hadn’t done XYZ then I wouldn’t have done ABC.” Although I seem to get involved with men that blame me for what they do. In fact, I don’t recall ever telling a boyfriend it was his fault for something I had done but they sure like to blame $hit on me.
“…don’t own other people’s behavior – this makes you feel worthless because it’s uncontrollable.” The way you said that hits home for me. Dead on. It all seems paradoxical to me though. On the one hand we’re not responsible for other people’s behaviors yet we do have effect on people. So which is it? Maybe my brain is still too muddy on the subject.
“You could be the most boundary-less person in the world but there are people who won’t tap dance all over your doormat and then do a few rollovers because it’s just not how they operate. Keep that in mind the next time you blame yourself for others actions.” And where are these people? Because I sure as heck seem to have the sharks that are not inclined toward respect or love swimming around in my pond.
Colour
If it keeps happening then it must be … you. Which is a good thing, because you can change (it’s hard work though). When I look back over my EU relationships, what the men mostly had in common were good looking, high status, popular, somewhat challenging, somewhat unavailable (one was married, another was wrapped up with an ex, one was long distance). It would all start with excitement, hot pursuit etc you know the drill. Take a look at what attracts you – maybe you like men who seem sensitive, or troubled, or very charming or very attentive. Attentive is good but sometimes they are just trotting out the same seduction routine. With hindsight, you can see that. Is what attracts you healthy?
Also, look at your behaviour – are you having sex quite soon and then seeing that as a reason to overcommit? Do you start fantasising about the wedding on date 2? Do you on some level prefer the up and down to something more stable?
Or it can be quite subtle – do you actually want a relationship? Do you believe you deserve one? Do you know what it requires from you and from him?
It’s not so much that your behaviour makes these guys treat you badly, you’re picking the wrong guys in the first place. Or they are picking you cos they subconsciously know you’ll put up with them. There are lots of women who will so it does take a major epiphany for them to realise that what they’re doing isn’t healthy.
Best post yet Nat! Wow what great and fair perspective. This isn’t some run of the mill love advice for ladies channel. Everytime I read you there’s a lot of personal responsibility themes and choosing to be happy with what-is. Only way life and one’s ability to love without fear can work for any of us. Well done woman. I’m so glad you’re here.
Great topic. Natalie you are a very smart person. Thank you for sharing your wisdom with us.
Sometimes it’s hard to see things clearly while in the middle of it. Perspective is always a good thing to have.
Jana
Thank you so much for this. It really hits the nail on the head and is extremely healing. I found myself taking several huge sighs of relief during this one. You and your insights are a blessing!
P.s. When I read this, the first thing I thought of was the infamous, “I let the wedding get bigger than Big”! Because obviously, if a 50 something year old EUM leaves a sister at the altar…he must have been terrified by the floral arrangements. That movie should come with a disclaimer.
Natasha
I’m disgusted that Big and Carrie got married and live happily ever after. That was never going to happen. A man who strings you along, marries someone else, then cheats on her with you is not good husband material. And Carrie wasn’t much better (poor Aidan). And, no, that doesn’t make them a good match. It makes a trainwreck.
I liked Charlotte and Harry though. That was terrific!
Agreed Grace! The moral of the story is, if a man messes you around for 10 years and then leaves you at the altar, what you want to do is…run right over, make sweet, dysfunctional love in a closet and do the wedding on his terms. Brilliant! The only way it could have been worse is if they brought back the dreaded Berger to give the finger to an answering machine again.
p.s. I loved Charlotte and Harry too 🙂
Grace & Natahsa
Hi Gals, well I was totally disappointed that Carrie ended up giving Big *another* chance and marrying him, after all he put her through. BUT it reminds me of me… though I didnt Marry the guy, kept going back for more tripe. Carrie’s story is not over, the marrige has severe cracks (how could it not?!!) therefore I dont think Carrie & Big being married is a happy ending, it’s just another phase/twist in their disfunctional relationship. Anyone that’s been married to a practising eum, will know that. I think it’s quite clever in that it’s pretty realistic (unfortunately). I mean in SiTC2 Carrie & Big discuss living sepertely for a few days a week… after her escaping back to her flat for a couple of nights, she feels responsible for his suggestion:-/ …trying desperately to keep this on topic!
LostEnergy, I am trying to stay completely on topic too haha! However, I watched it last night and I am incapable of discussing SATC without addressing the appalling Berger. (Natalie, I remember you saying that you didn’t like him either, so I’m going out on a limb here.) Remember when he was all yapping repeatedly about his ex and how he was “dead” until he met Carrie? I wanted to be like, “Run Forrest, RUN.” Of course, Carrie being Carrie, she took this as a positive sign. I won’t even get into the whole Aidan debacle (or the fact that they brought him back for the sequel to get dissed AGAIN). I digress. Anyway, yes, I agree that their marriage would be quite jacked up in real life! I mean really, she went through many a year of rejection/humiliation to win the grand prize of…a man who wants separate appartments on a regular basis. Who says it isn’t worth it to stick to an EUM/AC like glue?!
So true! I have friends tell me all the time I’m to nice or laidback and that I need to be more of a b**ch. I say No, because if a person is going to be disrepectful just because I am to nice or laidback, then I feel thats who they trully are and it’s their problem. I shouldn’t have to tell someone the basic way to treat another human being, it’s either the way you are or not.
Thanks Natalie for your site it has been a great inspiration to me after being married for 21 years to an a**clown and getting back into the dating scene. I am becoming a stronger, better person every day!
“You can address why they get away with something or it’s not addressed but when it comes to the act in itself, that’s a choice all of their own.”
I remember when I found a woman’s robe in my ACs drawer after “our break” …… his really. I asked him if there was someone else. His response was “I had a girlfriend once who thought I was cheating – all that did was make me want to cheat”. Now that’s MATURE!! Had the tables been turned my response would have been – we need to talk, what’s going on, how can I show you that you can trust me.
His actions are his – it is NOT my responsibility for his cheating if that’s what he so choses because I asked and was tring to have an adult conversation to see were I or we stood.
With that being said, I wish I had gaged his response to what my response would have been and gauged my next move – flush!!! Nat, how do we approach these “things” with other people without expecting them “to be like us” as people are individuals, but then there are situations that you do “want them to be like us” = same values, boundaries etc. Hopefully that question makes sense. Really needed this article – thanks Nat – you have such amazing insight!!
Aimee,
We have to make much better choices in the beginning.
Looking back, I can say there were many red flags with the man I was involved with, but I choose to ignore, as I thought he would be different with me.
We should NEVER enter a relationship with the intention of someone changing, as it is not fair to them or us.
Agreed! I think Nat’s dead on with this article but we are responsible for ignoring the red (or amber) signs…that responsibility does not fall on the EUM or A**clown…that’s fully ours. (As are the expectations that one day they will change).
Good point…
@Allison & Metsgirl,
It has taken me a while, but I know had I been under normal circumstances I would have RUN. I forgive myself now for verbally yelling AND putting up with his crap (and Red Flags) as my Mom had died only 6 weeks earlier. I was just coming out of my shock and numb of her death and couldn’t believe what was happening. I was wracked with grief, and had this not occurred I am quite positive I would have left much sooner. My girlfriends have also agreed that I would have too – I was not my “normal” self.
With that being said – I am not trying to excuse how I reacted. I do still have work to do so I don’t bust my own boundaries should a similiar experience happen in the future, or any red flags for that matter!
“We should NEVER enter a relationship with the intention of someone changing, as it is not fair to them or us” …. I agree, it’s hard enough to change myself, trying to change someone else is like banging your head againest a brick wall.
Aimee,
Don’t beat yourself up, but make this experience a blessing-you’re here and learning about yourself and growing.
The experience with the ex, completely changed my life for the better-he was my epiphany- and for that I am thankful.
If it weren’t for that ridiculous situation, I would never have recognized my poor relationship habits-all areas of life-or low self-esteem. I feel I have grown so much!!!
Thank you AC!!!! 🙂
Hi Aimee…please don’t think that my comment was directed at you because if I had my crap together I wouldn’t even be on this blog LOL. Rather I was talking to myself outloud. I’m sorry to hear about your mother and yes that does jolt us out of normal behavior. Many (((hugs)))
Yes. That’s why the creation and maintaining of boundaries is so important. Without them, many of us have a tendency to hold ourselves responsible for someone else’s poor behavior, or we’re vulnerable to manipulative people who try to pin blame for everything on us. It’s a big enough challenge to be responsible for one’s own emotions and behavior!
NML I think you play Jedi mind tricks on me as this post has such great timing.
“Obviously Nat, if, I don’t know, she told me a bit sooner or hadn’t been so easy going and letting me get away with stuff, then half of this shit wouldn’t have happened…” he said, albeit sheepishly.
OK. So I feel as though this is how my ex is thinking right now, and I struggle with the idea of ‘If I stood up for myself more, he would respect me more, and I would become his everything’. Anyone else feel this way?
I am realizing more and more each day that he is not someone I want a relationship with (this would be a no-brainer to a different girl due to the crap I have put up with) but a part of me is still stuck on : the chemistry/the sparks/the feeling, the ‘potential’ that I know he has, the worry that the next girl will get his ‘full potential’, and a part of me thinks … If I had stood up for myself all those times I should have, I would be his everything …
Then again, do I want such a person as a boyfriend?
Thank you tons,
From down under.
Once again I have re-read my post and realized how silly I am. I just keep getting stuck in the same thought cycle. I am done over-analyzing something that is not worth analyzing!
I do not want a relationship with someone who has made me cry, made me wait, made me feel bad, and broken many of promises. I have allowed this to happen, got caught in illusions, so I do realize my role in my own disappointment. I am learning to have boundaries and that relationships and life NEEDS boundaries, and am ever so grateful for that.
I want someone who will never put me in those situations, who will love me and appreciate the love I give back. End of story.
Thank you tons NML.
Your webpage is a gift.
I still feel that way a lot. Logically, I know it’s not my fault and that I want better but I still blame myself. I get stuck on the “chemistry”/ the “potential” / the lies and think why?? However, I think that has to do with how I feel about myself more than anything.
I guess what I struggle with is putting him into this “bad-guy” category. Some days I still miss him. Did he do some shitty things to me? Hell yes, but does he have a lot of good qualities too? Yes. The world isn’t made up of good and bad people, it’s not black and white. I think to a certain extent he didn’t want to hurt me, but that didn’t stop him from doing it or not wanting to take responsibility for it. Can someone be truly remorseful but still not do anything to change their behavior?
Sorry, ringing myself back in now…I still try to rationalise the irrationable. I definitely suffer from the ‘Women who think too much’ syndrome. I guess recovery is a long road but at least we’re not alone. 🙂
Sarah, that’s an interesting question. As a fellow former sufferer of Women Who Think and Talk Too Much, I can relate. The only basis I have for my opinion on this is my ex-AC, who got me to take him back because he was going on and on about how awful he felt about how he treated me and everything was going to be different. However, as you can prob guess, he was even worse in certain ways. What I do know is I was very clear about what I found hurtful and why…and ended up with the same end result. I think if someone is really remorseful, you’ll probably know it. I got the “I didn’t mean to hurt you, because you’re so great” line too, but that’s just ducking accountability. Also with assclowns in particular, they like to think that they are great catches for who knows what reason. If you’re dealing with a guy that’s delusional about what kind of person he really is and unwilling to get real with himself, it’s pretty difficult to say if he really feels remorse or not. In any event, YOU know when something is unnacceptable, so it doesn’t really matter what he feels/does about it.
The sad reality is, when somebody comprehends how much damage they had done, (assuming they’re not a sociopath) along with true remorse comes a genuine respect for your wish not to have to go through the same pain ever again. Or even be reminded of it. Which means they won’t gamble with your well being by blithely assuming they’re suddenly a new person who has shed his old selfish ways. If they can honestly see themselves and their actions toward you as you see them, they really will stay the heck away (with express or implied apologies). This cold, hard logic is difficult to accept because it obliterates any hopes for a fairytale ending. If they truly regret, they will leave you alone and will make little or no contact. If they don’t regret, you’ll obviously have to stay firm and do NC on them.
Having said that, my fantasy is that my recently (as of February) disappeared EUA is staying away out of true regret and respect. I have no real evidence. It’s just that the alternative explanations make my blood boil.
Cavewoman, couldn’t agree more! However, in my case, I think he was only apologizing because I’d told him I was done with him a few months before and gone NC, so he had to say SOMETHING to make a comeback. I mean, it’s possible that he felt somewhat bad, but I wouldn’t bet the farm on it! Trust me when I tell you that you will get to a point where you won’t care if homeboy feels remorse or not. I understand how you feel, because it’s galling when someone keeps showing up only to disappear (or even if they only do it once – it’s still infuriating!). The thing is, if someone is an EUM/AC or anyone who does disappearing acts, they have issues that would make it pretty darn tough for them to feel or express genuine remorse. To pull something like that, in my opinion, you have to be very selfish/cowardly/a hot mess. That type of man is not the man you need to come running back and say he’s sorry – even when they do say it, they’re sometimes not even sorry for the right reasons. Don’t worry about if he’s sorry or not, just resolve treat yourself better! Hang in there, it gets easier.
Australia & Sarah,
I have definitely felt, well I should have stood up for myself more, right from the start and continuously. I was better at the start but certainly not perfect at it. I did put some effort in trying not to let everything slide, however it take alot of effort. a) Sometimes I just dont know what to actually say right there and then to challenge the situation/comment b) addressing every incident can be exhausting c) i spent time trying to look for good things to comment on, so as not to be a ‘Nag’, d) pulling him up on stuff led him to criticise me for being critical and he claimed he’d already changed some of his ways for me (you cant win!). e) I wanted to concentrate on positives to try and re-estabish some rappourt and good times.
Ultimately if the respect isnt there, then it can be alot of effort for minimal return.
There were lots of things my ex did that were lovely and I miss and this leads me to beat myself up about it finishing -but during those ‘times’ if I look at it they werent always filled with smiling, laughter and avid conversation, infact there was sometimes quite a bit of silence, awkward feeling etc, hardly perfect memories.
Sarah, I think you’re missing the point somewhat. Nobody is asking you to vilify the guy and make him into a ‘bad guy’. It’s only you that’s asking you to do that. Most people are considered to have ‘good points’. It’s not about whether he’s a good or bad guy – it’s the fact that you don’t see him as a whole person. When you put the good AND bad points together, you are respecting the reality of him. When you put him on a pedestal with his ‘good points’ and blow smoke up his bum or deny what the bad points are, you create problems. The fact is, the world is not made up of people who have good points and bad points. The world is full of people. We only talk about people in terms of good and bad points when we seek to rationalise, minimise, and deny the bad points and amplify the good points. I know many people and I’m sure that none of them are perfect but I don’t view them in good points, bad points.
@NML
I’ll be honest, the first time I read your comment I felt a little insulted/uncomfortable. I got this image of me going around with this stamp labeling people as good or bad and that was not something I liked. However, you are right to a certain extent.
Something clicked for me. I didn’t realize I was trying to vilify him but that is exactly what I’m doing. I’m trying to rationlize and understand why he did the things he did and I can’t. I think I’m trying to force myself to put him into this “bad guy” category to make it easier for me to let him go. After all, isn’t it easier to not miss an a**hole. However, while I want to let him go I am also scared to.
Thanks for all you do!!! I appreciate it!! 🙂
Hi Sarah, well I’m glad you don’t feel insulted and it’s good to feel uncomfortable.
The truth is that if all it took to breakup or move on was for someone to be an asshole, many of the readers of this site would be off living their merry lives. The truth is, even some serial killers are known by some to be caring, charming, people with ‘good points’ but it doesn’t make them relationship material or a great or even ‘good’ person. Obviously your ex is not a serial killer, but it’s more that when we want to find the good in people and proactively seek to do it, we’ll find it. We’ll make it up or exaggerate qualities and characteristics that other people wouldn’t blink an eye at.
Your relationship not working out isn’t down to him being an asshole because that’s denying that you were a part of your relationship. Your relationship didn’t work out because a number of incidences, how you felt, and your compatibility for a mutually, fulfilling, healthy relationship was not possible. It wasn’t working. If it was working you’d still be together *and* you’d have felt good.
Your job is not to vilify this man because it removes your accountability. Focusing on others is avoiding ourselves. You don’t need to understand what he did because short of giving him a lobotomy and examining his brain, you could never fully understand him.
Also it’s not easier to miss an asshole –
I can definately relate to this.
“I think to a certain extent he didn’t want to hurt me, but that didn’t stop him from doing it or not wanting to take responsibility for it.”
I know my ex never purposely hurt me , it happened because of the crazy mix of emotions, feelings and bad timing. There are times when I should have stepped back and said ‘I am not dealing with this anymore’. But to some extent I was always there, and I truly believe he just ‘wasn’t sure’ about us working out, and because I was still there we fell into this limbo of should we/shouldn’t we try again and with nothing ever being defined, someone is bound to get hurt. I could blame him and say ‘you should have left me alone!’ but at the same time I could blame me and say ‘you should have left him alone!’ No one to blame here, we are both responsible. But the difference now is I am taking responsibility everyday to make sure that I am following my gut, not making one person the sole source of my happiness, and just living life without waiting for anyone. If someone does not want to add positivity to my life, I do not want them. With no expectations from anyone but myself, I can’t be disappointed.
Dear Australia,
please forgive yourself for not standing up to yourself more in the past. You were doing your best, being the person you knew how to be at the time. Now you are now on a new path. Honestly, no one ever knows how things could have been different had they done this-or-that instead. Even if you knew, knowing what might have been is still just the mind engaging in idle illusions. Things are what they are. Accept the past as it was, because it’s giving you the gift of growth and self-knowledge in the now. Accept the facts and accept it if they make you angry, sad, regretful, all of it, because you are larger than all those feelings!
“Even if you knew, knowing what might have been is still just the mind engaging in idle illusions.”
Thanks a ton cavewoman.
You are right. There is NO point in dwelling on past situations and re-playing events in your mind, because the past will never change. I tend to build up this grand picture in my end of what life could have been like, but my imagination is a powerful thing and it probably would not look like that picture.
The only thing I can do is draw lessons from those events.
I am trying to forgive myself. There are moments were I still feel so defeated, so down, so lost. But I am working on my self-esteem. I am a very happy, positive person.
>my imagination is a powerful thing< Yours and mine both, Australia! Putting my imagination into its proper place in my life is an ongoing project over here. I'm not clinically insane, in that I didn't hallucinate a relationship with this guy, but boy did I embellish the potential... I guess I should write DO NOT BULLSHIT SELF on my bathroom mirror. Actually, my bathroom mirror is already taken, it reads HE WON'T BE BOTHERING ME ANY MORE. Time for a new slogan though, about what I can do for myself, not what he will or won't do!
“….boy did I embellish the potential… I guess I should write DO NOT BULLSHIT SELF on my bathroom mirror. ”
Love this! I have bullshitted myself many times, because it was EASIER than facing reality. But facing reality really helps you process the situation, and move on.
It’s nice to float off into a dream world where you and your guy are living in a fairytale basking in love. But when the relationship is balanced and loving, and they are giving you what you deserve and vice versa, you will be living this fairytale, not just dreaming it.
@Australia
“OK. So I feel as though this is how my ex is thinking right now, and I struggle with the idea of ‘If I stood up for myself more, he would respect me more, and I would become his everything’. Anyone else feel this way?”
I don’t NOW. I did when I was “in” the relationship. He blamed me for “our break” because I verbally attacked him when he eye-screwed a girl in his backyard in front of me on our date night and let me leave while he flirted with her and I later found pictures in his camera with his arms around her, plus they were email/FB “friends – still are. HAHAHA
Distance and hindsight are wonderful and amazing!! I wrote the above paragraph realizing NOW that he was going to do it no matter if I yelled or not (we might not have gone on break – his way of punishing me for yelling at him for busting my boundaries, but he would have done it NO MATTER WHAT). It’s actually quite laughable how I bought into his sh**. Sad that I did not trust myself more. Just have to set my boundaries w/o verbally attacking next time – of course with SOMEONE NEW!
His behavior was always my fault according to HIM. He even told me that a woman is pretty much responsible for inspiring a man to be a better man – ok – I believe that to a small point. But his reasoning was that his deadbeat friend could not keep a job, but if my friend went out with his she could “help’ him keep a job because of her “FEMALE INSPIRATION”. This is just so laughable – I am LMAO seeing the lunacy in this reasoning.
Good one Nat, I remember my x on the day he walked out and i asked why? He either gave answers that made no sense, just random ramblings and said i should have tested him more!!!!
Ummmm sure, i should have tested Mr hot/cold/inconsistant/emotionally unstable, jelousy and controlling more…… sure im sure that reaaaaaallllyy would have helped.
Lol.
I’m slightly confused, sure we don’t spend our time teaching these men how to treat us but when they do something that is hurtful do we just flush them or do we say hey that hurt and give them an opportunity to change.
I didn’t often day anything about the crappy behaviour my exeum dished out but two times I did.
The first time he had asked me to call him so I did and he was blunt and rude to me. I mentioned this and his excuse was I had disturbed him working, I said you chose to answer the phone and you could have said politely you couldn’t talk right now and will call me back when it is a good time. I admit he was never rude to me like that again on the phone.
The second time was when the end of our time together would be drawing to a close and he could be so dismissive I made mention of this that there was no need to dismiss me I know when our time has finished he also changed his behaviour here too.
So what should I have done in these situations just flushed or what ?
It shouldn’t take you having to point out another person’s actions for someone to decide to do better.
Isn’t saying something addressing the issues saying something to them ?
People do things all the time that cross your boundaries, often without realizing it, and it’s your responsibility to yourself to address it. Your answer comes in what happens next. Someone who cares and is available will try to stop doing it even if they don’t totally agree because they care and don’t want to hurt and upset you. If they continue to act in a way that crosses your boundaries you have 2 choices. You can say this is not for me and flush or you can stay and put up with it. Either way it’s your choice and you are responsible for that choice. You are not responsible for their behavior.
Tulipa
The two incidents you describe seem fairly minor so I assume there was a bigger underlying problemthat couldn’t be solved for you to break up.
Yes, it’s worth discussing but it’s like playing that game where you have to hit moles that keep popping out of the ground. Can you keep hitting moles over and over or just move onto a different patch of land with fewer/no moles?
Tulipa, I’m a bit confused. Isn’t or wasn’t this guy married? I’d have flushed for that. The other two things are relatively minor.
NML
I’m not picking on Tulipa here but it’s mindboggling how we focus on a man doing x, y, z yet miss the elephant in the room. If he’s married, got a partner, seeing other women – I don’t give a flying fig how often he’s calling me! He can push off!
No, he wasn’t married and yes he would have been flushed for that in fact he would not have been on my radar.
I laugh now because you are right they are minor issues, compared to not saying anything over future faking events, lying, cheating and general bad behaviour.
I was trying to differentiate between when you speak up about things or if you just say nothing when they act badly. I understand now so I’m grateful for the replies. I like what was said about hitting the moles it could have been just like that, it was wrong from the start. Thank you Ms A you are there are two choices after you have spoken up about it simple and easy to remember.
NML: I was the one who was trying to be “friends” with exeum after he had dumped me and said we would be friends and I kept sticking around in a bad situation till you made me clearly and now even no contact seems easy. I just want to change and learn for the future should I meet someone else. So thank you.
It’s funny – I was lying in bed last night calming down my busy mind for sleep and you popped back into my head and I suddenly realised that your guy isn’t married indeed – sorry for the mix up! But yes, insert man that doesn’t want to commit or man that’s said he doesn’t a relationship but will be ‘friends’ to soothe his conscience instead of married.
Disagreements and misunderstandings in themselves are not dealbreakers or boundary crossings unless the nature of them is about something involving a potential dealbreaker or boundary crossing or what they do *in* the disagreement or misunderstanding crosses into being disrespectful. People have off moments, days, or even weeks although your ex is just ‘off’ anyway.
When I said about teaching people etc, you don’t spend your life teaching someone how to do basic things like have boundaries. I wasn’t saying flush after each and every thing that pisses you off no matter how big or small. Likewise, while it may seem strange now, people do have disagreements and have their feelings hurt without having to ‘teach’ anyone anything. You can tell someone your feelings are hurt without feeling that you now have to teach them how to be a better person which suggests that the reason why you are teaching them is because you feel they’re lacking.
Take the phone call. No he didn’t have to answer the phone but he did because it’s what people tend to do when a phone rings and most of us no matter how hassled, feel bad about not answering phones. That said, while he like anyone can be irritable or snappish, you were not to know you were interrupting him so while you can apologise and go on your merry way, it’s not your fault he answered the phone or that he was rude to you. Even in saying that, a reasonable person will later that day or the day after apologise for blaming you for their anger.
Hmm
I’m that person who doesn’t call much or respond to every text. Not so much in relationships (as I’ve not been in one for over five years) but with friends, certain members of family and acquaintances. I’m working on being less of a hermit but I can tell you that if someone got on my back about it I would just avoid them. In fact, I’ve cut off a couple of people who kept wanting more than I was willing to give.
I’m not saying that what I do is good, but you’d be wasting your precious time trying to get me to change. I trying to change but I’m doing it at my own pace and for my own reasons.
People are who they are and it’s no-one’s job to make them “better” (unless you’re their counsellor or something).
Hi Grace, I’m not sure it’s about reply to every text but when, for example, I’ve been chat/texting with a guy for about six months, we went out a couple of times, he has a partner. We’ve maintained pretty much daily or almost daily contact for that time….it’s when they up and vanish with no explanation. You could say he or yourself don’t owe us one but for me, if you’re a friend & you don’t feel like talking, just say so & I’ll leave you alone till you’re ready. Otherwise you’ll get dumped in my loser pile. It’s called communicating. Pulling a vanishing act – to me – is just childish and avoiding the issue.
Eve
I’m not defending my behaviour but I’m saying that someone who behaves this way does it because it suits them and they don’t want to change. My situation is not really the same as being in a relationship with an EU man, after all my friends, family don’t have the same expectations around exclusivity etc that a boyfriend would. However, what is similar, if someone doesn’t want to give you as much time, effort etc as you would like – stop beating a dead horse. I’ve taken the hint from a couple of ex-friends who don’t seem to have time for me. I haven’t waited for them to announce they don’t have time. I see the writing on the wall and duck out.
This post is great! A quick question, does anyone think this is why the advice of other dating “experts” (including Rori Raye, whom I have to my surprise seen recommended from time to time in the comments on here) is bogus? It seems to me that they all try to tell you that if you would just adopt certain behaviours, your man would treat you right when if there’s one thing I know, it’s that that is just not true.
I’m wondering about the perspective any of you might have on this.
hmm I think it depends person to person – I’m not sure how much people change but I have known guys step up their game with certain women who wouldn’t let them get away with crap. Perhaps it’s just the honeymoon phase 😉
It’s almost like what I had some guy say to me about relationships – who cares least wins!
Jennifer
It sort of works in the early stages of dating when it’s all a bit of a game/a laugh. And later on, it may keep an EUM on his toes for a few weeks. Until he realises he can still do what he likes cos the woman has no boundaries and isn’t going to dump him anyway.
But as the foundation of a healthy relationship – no. And, frankly, who can be bothered?
Exactly, who is going to change their behavior if they know that they can keep doing it and not suffer any consequences?
This post reminds me of something that happened to a girlfriend of mine during her first marriage. A mutal male friend of theirs was getting married, she set up a stripper for the stag party. When her husband came home she asked him how it was. He told her that the (sorry this is so offensive) girl put tequila and salt and on her breast and offered men to lick it off, and he did it. Of course she was very hurt that he did this, she was shocked that she had married a man who would think that this behavior was OK. He said to her “well, you hired the stripper” -(blaming her for it -isn’t that nice). Point is that he thought nothing of behaving like that, I mean come on get a clue man. And he did this while married to a woman that he said was the love of his life. How in the world can anyone think that this type of behavior is OK? And then blame her for it. This incident was one of the many that opened her eyes to the fact that this man wasn’t a good life partner and she divorced him.
Honestly (and I’m a woman) I DO think the woman owns some responsibility for this incident. These are the typical kinds of party games strippers play. She shouldn’t have hired one. I don’t think her husband sounds like some kind of horrible cheating jerk based on this incident alone.
wow – just shows how different people have different ideas of what is acceptable in a relationship – i would be furious if my oh licked some strippers nipples, regardless of if I was okay or not there was a stripper at a party he was at. Just as I would not do the opposite with a male stripper. I guess hopefully though in any relationship it would be communicated what is acceptable and what isn’t, and that is what is worrying about Dawn’s story – either the couple were not aware of what would and wouldn’t upset the other or the man knew and didn’t care.
If you have participation criteria for your husband, express them beforehand. But for goodness sakes, it’s a stag party, with a stripper!! So, if you’re not prepared to hear the answer, don’t ask. On the other hand if you are truly curious, it yields better results to just have him reenact it at home. 😉
OK, but I think a person is who he/she is. In other words, even an assclown may be aware on some level that his partner will leave him if he does stupid things, but that will just make him behave until he thinks the risk has passed, and if his partner leaves him anyway, he will probably just go to a place where he internally blames her rather than taking responsibility. That’s why if someone is being an ass in the relationship and not taking responsibility, you have to LEAVE him, not so that he’ll feel threatened and change himself and then come back to you, but so that you don’t have to be with an assclown.
I feel like I’m finally seeing the light in all of this. Nobody can manipulate a person into good behaviour. Either a person is not an assclown, or he is. And in terms of who cares least wins, I think that being human, eventually you will have to care about someone. Just be ready to leave and to grieve and deal with the hurt if he’s not the right one.
“That’s why if someone is being an ass in the relationship and not taking responsibility, you have to LEAVE him, not so that he’ll feel threatened and change himself and then come back to you, but so that you don’t have to be with an assclown.” Jennifer, that is one of the best comments I’ve ever read on here. Sing it sister!
I think it’s easy to criticise all the dating advice sites (which have a different purpose to BR) but Rori Raye’s advice is more to do with improving your communication patterns with men and learning to tell the truth about your feelings. It’s about learning to be vulnerable and love yourself. She is pretty clear that if a man doesn’t respect you, and won’t respond to your clear request to treat you differently then flush him and stay true to what you want from a relationship. I found her formulae really helpful for moving away from ‘hinting’ and skirting round a subject with men. I have found it a lot easier talking to men now using her methods. I always used to brush off bad behaviour in order to appear easy-going and reasonable. Now I am quite comfortable to state how I feel, but less demanding of their reaction which can easily be a lie anyway. If they can’t respond to my feelings and change then I won’t bother with them. There is no need for me to tell them how to behave – they either want to make me happy or they don’t.
Also the ‘leaning back’ advice is very useful for women who have tendencies to want to control – like Nat is talking about in this post – imagining we can influence a man’s behaviour. Once you get under the marketing hype, the message is pretty sensible – if you run after a man like he’s the answer to all your problems he’ll either run a mile or see you as a victim to be used. Chill out, recognise your own worth and behave with dignity.
BR is deliberately harsh on Assclowns and EUMs, but once you put your boundaries in place, and can recognise warning signs and have done the work being honest with yourself, if you want to learn some useful tips about improving your communication, I think Rori Raye is great. I know that I used to communicate in a way which invited disrespect (because I disrespected myself). It’s really helped me be more assertive at work, with friends and on dates, and boosted my self-esteem as a consequence. I stand my ground now and refuse to sell myself short.
I think Rori Raye has some worthwhile elements, but she doesn’t emphasize them enough. She advocates for standing up for yourself, taking responsibility for your own happiness, focusing on/respecting/expressing your own feelings, etc. If you do all that, you’ll get the same results as what Natalie’s work at baggagereclaim aims for. However, RR markets herself in a way that the message gets jumbled a bit. She sells it as a fix for the relationship. Add a touch of denial on the reader’s part, and it all gets taken ass backwards really easily. I was on her email list, but reading and heeding the newsletter advice made me worse off, because she often couched the advice in promises that things would work out with the current guy. She doesn’t spend enough time telling you why you might not even want your current guy. If I were still following her newsletters, I’d still be wondering what I’m doing wrong to this day. It’s not me. It’s him. He is unavailable, he was before we met, and he will be for a long time to come.
Trying to make it work was my problem. The more advice I get on how to make it work, the harder I try, and the more of a problem I have. You can take RR’s advice the right way, but I have a feeling many make a mistake I made and take it hoping they work like Jedi mind tricks.
Cavewoman
Yes, that’s a good take on it. In order to sell their product, relationship experts overemphasise how “fixable” a relationship is. I hazard that by the time you’re driven to the internet looking for advice, you’re very likely to be involved with an EUM. Nat is the only person I’ve come across who’ll tell you the unpalatable truth in blunt terms … walk (or run).
Oh, and wayne and tamara. Their attitude to cheating is completely zero tolerance. It even took me aback. But they don’t charge. I think charging people can have an element of telling them what they want to hear (not Nat’s e-book though – that can be tough, in a good way).
right! grace,
this is a great observation. If you’re desperate enough to go poking around on the internet for answers about some guy, chances are it is already hopeless. The market niche for these relationship-fixer-upper products is people partnered in such a way that they can’t or won’t seek quality, realistic, professional help, such as couples counseling. Why not? Because one or both of them are emotionally unavailable, of course.
I don’t know Wayne and Tamara yet, but Baggagereclaim is special because it really doesn’t prey on hopeless situations. When I first started found this site, almost a year ago, it was like a shining beacon of reason and insight. The next chance I got with my EUA, I asked him to stop calling me. I was determined to detox him right out of my system. Then the pain set in… and I got mad –get this! – at Natalie! for telling it like it is, leading me to take such drastic measures. Hey Natalie, sorry I was *pissed off* with you and your truth, I kid you not. This is some tough love you’re giving us! I guess I wasn’t quite ready. I fell off the wagon, I relapsed for a “suck it and see” situation that lasted a few weeks, and again you were right about that too. It’s eerie how many things you are right about that I kept missing or dismissing. I hate being wrong and admitting it! (Which is what keeps me in the wrong for much longer than I need to be heh heh.)
Thank you for giving me a giggle Cavewoman. You wouldn’t be the first to tell me something like that and I appreciate you sharing your experience. I’m *relieved* you’re not mad at me anymore! One of the biggest things that will serve you well throughout life is admitting when you are wrong. If you don’t, you make far more mistakes in the process of trying to be ‘right’ than you would have done to admit. I’m glad you feel so much better xx
Grace, so true! My sister decided to play a little joke on me by signing me up for the Christian Carter’s emails. Oh. My. Lord. What I took from these missives was that if you have an EUM on your hands, you have to make an effort to understand him, never get annoyed, count to 2000 before calling him on his behavior, etc. Plus, when CC really gets fired up about how you’re screwing everything up by having feelings and asking rational relationship questions, it’s in ALL CAPS. Reminds me of a Kanye West Twitter rant. Maybe I misunderstood him, (Christian, not Kanye) but I would much rather stick with our brilliant Natalie 🙂
Yes, you have perfectly articulated the problem! Almost anyone who goes looking for relationship advice on the Internet is probably involved with an EUA, so telling them that particular relationship will work out if only they do X, Y, or Z is absurd. And yet, these experts want to sell their products, so they’ll tell you what they think you want to hear.
Thank goodness I found this site!
I don’t think it’s a case of having to act in a special way, play games, or keep men ‘on their toes’. I think it’s a case of finding someone who respects you when you’re being totally yourself. However, i think ‘yourself’ should be someone who has good self esteem and self respect, otherwise a healthy relationship will be difficult to find and maintain.
Also, as NML said somewhere else – with a decent person, you can be the most boudary-less person in the world and they STILL won’t treat you like crap. I think it’s a combination of the two: decent person and having good boundaries. There is no need to ‘change’ anyone’s behaviour if you have these two elements.
Wow! “Own your own actions”
It’s taken decades for me to be honest to myself. I feel more authentic today that I ever have. It’s not my fault that my exH decided to treat me a certain way. Although he blamed me for everything. I look back and cringe at the things I had to apologise (on my knees sometimes) for things that were strictly him acting like an arse. I have mourned and felt sad at myself for humiliating myself in that manner – and forgiven myself, too, because I have realised that actually, i am a worthy and worthwhile person. I do deserve to be treated well! More than that, I deserve to treat myself well I don’t have to take someones poor behaviour onboard and make it my own!
However, it is my responsibility that I let him continue that behaviour without putting a stop to it. It’s also my responsibility that I got involved with a MM and I let him eventually treat me like crap. His behaviour towards me was no different than his behaviour to his first and second wife.
Sometimes, in acting with love and forgiveness I took it a tad too far and compromised my sense of self and wellbeing. The price we pay for wanting the “social norm” is sometimes way too high and not worth it. Better to have peace, truth and acceptance of self and to treat oneself with respect than to let some idiot rain all over the parade!
I believe and I Thank God that not all men or women are monsters. Not all of us wish to live life placing blame and not taking responsibility.
Thanks for this article, today. I really needed to sort through issues of what was mine and was was theirs in terms of behaviour.
Great post, Nat! We cannot control how another person behaves but we can control how we respond to it. At the end of the day, Terry behaved how Terry always behaved, he’s been that way all of his adult like more than likely. What a cop out, if Marcy wasn’t so easygoing…huh? Enfuriating.
As you say Nat, you cannot teach some-one, be they friend or partner, how to behave decently. They either are decent or they are not and a person’s true colours always come out.
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This was great, Nat. Spot on and so much fun to read.
Wow, there is so much wisdom in this post. People are who they are and will make their own decisions about their behaviour, whatever it is, no matter what anybody else wants. Even if somebody appears to be influenced by another person that’s not really the case–the individual wants to do whatever it is and the other person is just the inspiration or catalyst. All we can do is model the way we want to live and be with other people. That’s why it’s so much better to find a person who already has the qualities and values you are looking for, rather than a “fixer-upper.”
That said, the idea that a man, in particular, will become “good” if the woman he’s with is beautiful, giving, kind, (etc.) enough is pervasive in our culture. Just look at fairly tales like “Beauty and the Beast.” It’s also a tremendously convenient way of keeping women in a one-down position, and allowing men to avoid responsibility. Sadly, as Nat’s conversation with her friend showed, being irresponsible hurts them, too.
Freyjah,
I totally agree about the urban myth ‘guys will change for the right woman/just need the love of a good woman’. This tries to make women completely responsible and many eums & a/cs are aware of these thoughts (& many others) in our heads and play us with it.
Well.. not anymore!
Generally females have a leaning towards nurturing and trying to develop others skills or improve any faults etc, think that’s another way people can be taken advantage of and also feel responsible for ‘everything’!
Yup, Beauty and the Beast, and the Little Mermaid too! I subtly divert my daughter from these stories because they’re poison. Little Mermaid mutilates herself in a deluded chase after a mirage of a boy!!! I’m sure there are more charitable interpretations available, but my daughter, like millions of other little girls, is a child of divorced parents. Which is to say she’s not getting a healthy relationship modeled to her in real life, and is bound to suffer to some degree from an absent father (not as absent as most, but in any case… he don’t live here anymore). The fairytale romances are not helping. It’s the mental equivalent of feeding your children high fructose corn syrup laden carbonated caffeinated beverages. I know in the EU soft drinks are not sweetened as excessively as here, but Disney is served up with all-American syrup there, too!
Is this like when men say “Men will be better when women make us better” or “Don’t leave us ladies, we NEED you to stand behind us so we can get our (collective) act together”?
This is so true. The dude that I was dating who told me that his last relationship broke up bc he cheated and she couldnt forgive blamed her for not making him stop or having boundaries for him NOT to do so. I at some point agreed if she did know about what was going on, HOWEVER, if he wasnt a cheater, she wouldnt have had to have had those issues with him.
This is also taking a load of my shoulders because I was feeling bad about letting him into my life as much as I did and thinking if maybe I had more boundaries I wouldnt be feeling this way, feeling like I was used. BUT, I had boundaries, and belive that some people JUST DONT DO certain things no matter what boundaries people have. I felt as if this all was my fault. That I did something terribly wrong for him to blow hot and cold, but thats just the way he is and was doing it BEFORE he met me. People who are NOT users do NOT do that.
“When you have little or no boundaries, you enable behaviour, not create it – this means the propensity to behave this way is in existence irrespective of anything you say or do.”
This was an AH HA moment for me.
I confused ‘you teach people how to treat you’ with ‘it’s your fault he speaks to you so rudely.’ I thought I must not have taught him correctly if he was being so awful. The shame of this thought and the idea that I could therefore do better at teaching him how to treat me kept me around far longer than was necessary.
It’s a little mind-blowing to think he would treat anyone this way and it has nothing to do with me, because it means he was that way from the moment I met him and I didn’t run?!?! What kind of glasses do I wear without realizing? Some powerful shade of rose-coloured, I guess.
Every time he treated someone else like crap it registered. Every time he treated me like crap I thought he was ‘mistaken’ or ‘didn’t know’ what the more healthy reaction was. I remember sitting him down once and saying, “You talk down to me. You take a condescending tone with me.” Talking to him like a kid who didn’t get it!! The irony!!
In the end it really was seeing him treat other people like crap that gave me the strength to leave. My issues could convince me that his pushiness with me was ‘my fault’ because I was too passive, but when I saw him be the same with random people I eventually realized how embarrassed I was to be beside him. I could see that I didn’t cause him being an AC to others.
Natalie, I have been reading your blog/site for a long time and have gotten a lot from it. But, I have to say that this is the BEST post of yours yet. For me, at least.
My whole life I have been told that I have been treated badly because of something I did. And while I have tried to communicate how it feels to me I know that it does not always make a difference.
It is definitely not my responsibility to rein other people in. And I think I am finally understanding that no matter what I do the other person is who they are.
Thanks for this great posting!
NML, this is a fantastic post, I have really loved and appreciated your last 3 posts. Your site helps me and a load of others stay on the right track. I had been feeling melancholic and harking back to good memories again with the return of the sunshine. Thinking about all the good expereinces and maybe I’m just a ‘too demanding’ girl who needs to take the rough with the smooth and should have shown more appreciation for the good times/things/effort he made. Of course if he didnt make any effort there would have been no reason to maintain it at all I guess. The fact is I did show my appreciation, always said so and did what I could for him. He on the other hand wasnt so appreciative and would perform a whole range of subtly negative behaviours, including subtle comments and withdrawal being the most popular… oh and blaming me for arguing -when he would start it and he’d find subtle ways of making me feel guilty for allsorts of things. His subtle behaviour made it alot easier for me to blame myself, as it was subtly negative, so it naturally makes you doubt yourself, erodes self esteem and sense of self, they in turn use their power to pick you up and put you down at ‘will’. Not wanting to meet up because we’re just going to argue… (obvious now that that was the end really). The need not to be ‘wrong’ again for whatever it was he was pinning on me, not to be ‘wrong’ for failing at another relationship is a heady concoction which propelled me ‘try and make it work’. We had an unknown amount of hours where he’d start an argument and I’d try and beg & plead & gain his forgiveness (I cant even recount what for now…!) I’d drive the 90minutes over, on a worknight to smooth things over with him, he never did this for me. He’d called his x wives “manipulative” and one day called me manipulative, which is when i started to smell a rat (or even more rats). He once drove his van drunk at night and tried to blame that on me. He was clever at making me feel guilty and this made the ability to break it off and the post break up much harder to see the wood for the trees. Thankfully now I can due to Natalie 🙂
I find it absolutely bewildering that the guy in this post actually is sorry that the girl broke up with him. Not because I would see anything wrong with it. It’s just it has never happened to me. None of my very few guys were ever sorry or thinking twice about me.
The last guy has forgotten about me in a week. Wrote me an email to tell me that he no longer thinks of anything, how he wishes me well and goodbye. I don’t think anything in our little time together hurt so much as that email.
I just wanted to add:
He wrote me an email after we split. He didn’t seem sorry or hurt at all. Just pleased that he managed to get out of a threat of a relationship.
I would say that the fact that he wrote you this means that the content was untruthful. If he really had let go of it all and truly believed that you meant nothing to him, sthen omething lovely (humane) would have taken its place and he would have either not contacted you or communicated something loving (in a platonic way) to you. This is bull. It’s almost certainly true that he is an avoidant and doesn’t want a relationship, but no one who has true detachment needs to write it and express it. And true detachment means you can feel love. I assure you, I know how sh*tty that email would have been to receive (I received my own defamatory e-thesis), but it’s just them acting out on their immediate feelings and trying to tie it all together with the ‘I don’t even care about you’ bow. It’s bull. Don’t pay attention to it. Besides, being sorry about leaving someone doesn’t come out in direct ways. The race is long, my friend.
I have a good male friend and we have been talking about whether we should start a relationship lately. However from my point of view, although I care for him there are too many problems from kick-off, the main one being the harem.
I’m not trying to change him, he knows the reasons why I’m saying no and hasn’t gone out of his way to rectify anything.
So no no no…..we can stay mates and that’s all good.
I guess we either accept the behaviour or we don’t. And men AND women don’t change because they get told to, they change because they want to
@ Kirsten
Well at least you knew about his harem from the beginning. When i entered into a relationship with my ex and he told me he would like a ‘full relationship’ with me when i was ready, and i asked him what would he do until i was ready. His reply was that he had ‘friends’. This should have been a red flag to me at the start but then i did not know harem’s existed – silly me just thought he meant he had ‘friends’ and not as he obviously was implying bed mates!
The relationship lasted 3 years and we had some great times together, the word friends was then never mentioned again so i presumed he was committed to myself, he certainly gave me the impression he was. Wrong! I learnt the painful way that he had been seeing someone else, possibly more than one, for over a year who i did not know about, so i assume he had always had these ‘friends’.
Of course now, we are not together because i just could not accept that i was sharing this man, let alone the possibility of having an STD. Why on earth do these men do this type of thing, he wasnt really anything special and yet he must have considered himself some sort of casanova lol. Well i hope he is happy with these ‘friends’ because i know after the painful split, i am happy without him and looking to find a man who wants only me!
What about when THEY explain away their bad behavouir as something you did to cause it, which in turn makes you wonder if you could have handled things differently to get a better outcome. I stood up for a couple of my boundaries recently that I felt were being crossed and first got stonewalled, then told I was insecure and jealous, loudly in my face. Later, the whole event was labeled miscommunication and I never got any recognition from him that he crossed my boundaries (involving honesty and drip feeding, being told he didn’t tell me because I didn’t ask, do I need to ask for honesty?). I am insecure in some ways but that doesn’t make me blind to patterns developing. He said these were in my head. They are not, I thought long and hard about it before I opened my mouth and made sure! In the end I felt like I was being invalidated and nothing got resolved. I finally said after a few rounds of this ( not the first time this has happened) that I expect more than conditional or selective honesty and not only when its convenient for him, and that I would not tolerate being drip fed and having it blamed on me. Its nonnegotiable. He responded by text “I am not perfect and neither are you so forgive me!” I don’t know what to think really, he still hasn’t admitted it really other than he is not perfect which seems like a cop out to me….and maybe a little “yes, dear” so he doesn’t have to admit anything. So, of course, falling back into the old me, I am starting to double check what I said and my approach and am generally doubting myself. To add, this man is incredibly stubborn and thinks he is right most of the time or needs to be and has at times been sort of condescending about it. When having a conversation and I have a slight different opinion or disagree with him, he says, “I know you don’t think about these kinds of things much, Honey.” Bam, invalidated. Am I going crazy and why cant someone just respect a boundary without blaming you for the choice they made! So, now I ponder who is really to blame here and is it shared or is he manipulating me.
NML, I just reread your post “Are you afraid of having standards in a relationship”. This helped me answer some of my own questions. I do have fears about enforcing my boundaries and am easily talked or coerced out of them or I get beyond mad when they get argumentative about it. I know this isn’t productive but I am so darned sick of people walking on me. This reaction doesn’t scream confidence, I know. If I am not met with some fair discussion and some understanding about my boundaries I get frustrated and emotional, which then gives them amo against me. In the past ten months I felt like I had made so much progress and now feel like I’m still in relationship muck, all over again. I don’t really know how to assert my boundaries effectively. This is tiring.
Jennynic, I feel your grief because I know how frustrating it can be when your feelings about what makes you uncomfortable in a relationship are marginalized. I am extremely sensitive and open, myself, which makes me a target for appearing weak and to the wrong men, “crazy”. I realize if I don’t choose men who are emotionally mature, diplomatic and above all accept and love who I am, I can’t articulate my boundaries effectively and have them respected. It’s easier to be yourself than have to tailor your ways around men who don’t get you.
It resonated with me when I read this part in Natalie’s post. “When you have little or no boundaries, you enable behaviour, not create it – this means the propensity to behave this way is in existence irrespective of anything you say or do.” So any approach we take with someone who is unwilling to be an honest, stand up guy, is not going to work anyway… hence the frustrations and emotions.. but that in itself is a warning sign, perhaps, that you are taking a stand for yourself. We’re not all armored the same way to deal with difficult people and I got tongue tied and felt manipulated by my ex when he tried to justify his unsavory behavior. He had a way of turning it around on me to make me seem unreasonable when I knew after much evaluation from reliable second and third, fourth, fifth (etc) opinions, that he is in fact a total ass. The bottom line was, it felt uncomfortable.. so I realize now, it didn’t matter how my message got through to him that it made me feel bad, in the end he just didn’t care anyway. Not saying your situation is the same, but I do empathize with how your feelings about it could manifest.
Jenny
You’re confusing what he is and and what he does. He’s a condescending, selfish, dishonest person. You could spend the next x months/years telling him off every time he’s condescending, selfish and dishonest or … dump him and find someone who is respectful, thoughtful and honest.
I think you’re not clear about what a boundary is. A boundary isn’t a training tool (as if he was a child or a dog) it’s a warning sign to YOU. Stay or go.
Yes, some things are up for discussion but he is who he is. It’s actually disrespectful to try and change him. And, yes, it is tiring because it’s an uphill struggle you’ll never win.
I love this website. I just have to say this first. I have been reading it since ’09 and there’s nothing like it. I was trolling the internet going to all sorts of websites trying to understand why my bf treated me so badly and how I could cope with it. After stumbling upon BR, I haven’t had the need to go anywhere else bc NML has made it abundantly clear that I already have all the answers. She broke things down in a way I have never heard before. With her posts, she helped me clear out all the clutter in my head and made me look @ things in REALITY. This post is just another example of that. She has helped me to gain perspective, self respect and strength back. And I hope she never stops doing what she’s doing.
I love how your book and website has kick started a change in me starting 2 + years ago. Now I’m realizing what an enabler I am/was and I’m working on it. This post… is so true and exactly where I am. Taking responsibility for me and allowing others responsibility for themselves. I’m blogging about enabling right now. Awareness definitely helps.
Thank you so much.
I was blaming myself for my boyfriend recently breaking up with me. We were together for a few months and he wanted to go clubbing with his female friends. It made me feel nervous and unhappy but I kept putting up with it because I thought he would change. He also wanted to go clubbing alone … he seemed pretty detaached from my feelings. He didn’t really care or at least I don’t think he did. He left me and it hurts but reading this makes me feel a bit better. Its still really hard though. I keep thinking that if I could have just gotten over him going out dancing with these other girls I would still have him here with me.
Hi FlawedBeauty
If he felt he still needed a harem in addition to you, do you really think this was a guy who cared about you or your feelings? [or anyone’s feelings beyond his own]? You weren’t comfortable with it. Period. Those were your boundaries, your dealbreakers. But he wouldn’t respect them. Stick by boundaries, they are not unreasonable standards to have.
I love this. I got to a point in my relationship where I felt like my ex boyfriend didn’t even like who I was. Then it finally dawned on me that not only did he really not like ANYONE, but he didn’t seem to like ANYTHING. At some point he dropped the “wooing” act and revealed his true self: an extremely negative and critical person when under any kind of pressure. He didn’t even like himself. Talk about trying to be an exception to a rule. It didn’t matter what I had done differently. I didn’t create his personality.
I am guilty of this behavior too. This line:
“Own your actions and start believing and treating yourself like you’re worthwhile, but don’t own other people’s behaviour.”
Sums it up, doesnt it? How many times someone has behaved like an ass to me and I thought somehow it was MY fault! And the AC, of course, would feed right into that because in his little peanut mind – it IS my fault. So if I’m ready to blame me and he’s ready to blame me … there ya go!
Although I am not “involved” with the AC anymore he still revolves around my life and brings me down. I wish it weren’t so.
I am so glad I found this post today. I questioned the guy about a post he made on a social networking site, and he is mad at me. For pete’s sake, the post said “i love you” to a woman! He questions my male friends and calls all of the time. Anyway, was beating myself up for asking him about it, thinking maybe I pushed him away by being too jealous-sounding (only been dating a month). THANKS, NATALIE!
Love your blog! So enlightening for me in such a dark relationship I was in. It was confusing and uncomfortable. I wish I found this sooner, but maybe I wouldn’t have been ready to acknowledge what I was really going through. I always knew and stated my values, but then I would give in, doing all the things you mention! Why do we do this???