Now, on to this week’s episode of The Baggage Reclaim Sessions.
Here’s what I cover in episode 7:
Are you in the habit of keeping score?: Keeping a tally of what you do and looking for a return of what you feel is like for like value, isn’t good for relationships and leads to resentment. I talk about why we do it, how it can end up sending the wrong messages and I include suggestions for getting out of the mindset.
We all need self-care: I talk about why having self-care practices or even having a routine, is vital for maintaining your sense of self and being able to survive and thrive even when life comes along with its inevitable bumps. This is the How To Self-Soothe quick guide that I refer to at the end of the show.
Our frustrations with others often point us to something that we need to amend or learn: It can be all too easy to focus our attention on other people’s behaviour but the irony is that we often get annoyed with or even dislike in others, things that we ourselves are also guilty of.
Listener Question – Can men and women just be friends?: This week’s question is the result of one of those awkward situations where a friend who might not have had as friendly intentions as we might have assumed or hoped for, makes unwanted advances and then reacts badly.
What Nat Learned This Week: I did it! I told my mama that we won’t be doing the whole big family Christmas thang this year (I’m not keen on drama even if there are cocktails and good food involved and last year’s Eastenders/Dallas/Dynasty style showdown between the mothers on Christmas night is my absolute line) and you know what? The sky didn’t fall down and I faced my fear of confrontation.
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Nat xxx
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Re: Scorekeeping
The thing about keeping score has another side to it–a therapeutic side.
I tend to be a people pleaser and I have to watch my boundaries because I’m a recovering codependent. When I relapse, I relapse big-time so I try to catch it as soon as I notice it.
I’m on a self-imposed romance hiatus because my ex, a married, EU, narcissist, sociopath, passive aggressive assclown, basically broke my heart and my brain. Literally, there is a new trend in therapy regarding treatment for survivors of narcissistic emotional abuse. When I read the symptoms, I was overjoyed to realize I was not starting to show early signs of Alzheimer’s, I was just mind raped and gaslight overdosed by a crazy con artist. Discovering it would take some time for my brain to rewire itself back to normal was fine once I realized that it would heal. Such a relief…
Symptoms include amnesia or short term memory loss, so I’ve trained myself to journal daily, especially about my interactions with people I know.
This is where the score keeping comes in handy.
Whenever I meet someone new that I like, or resume hanging out with old friends I had ignored while under the spell of that lizard-brained narcissist, even with platonic friends I tend to jump in too enthusiastically with material things–like sending them a handmade greeting card by snail-mail, or making them little gag gifts or doing some gesture, like picking up the tab too often.
Though I was raised by wolves, we were a very generous wolf pack, and that is one of the few behaviors I have carried with me into adulthood.
I’ve learned that spontaneous gifts, cards and thoughtful gestures should be applied like spices rather than huge entrees, because too many and it gets icky for the other person. I think over-generosity is often tied into a lot of childhood issues, too. Generosity=good. Over-generosity=shady.
So, if I write down that I gave whomever a little gift on Sept. 16, or sent a card to the other whomever on the 25th, I can keep track of my generosity and keep it at a level that is not icky or overwhelming.
With some of my newer friendships, in my journal I make a casual note of calls and invitations I have made vs their efforts, and my rule of thumb is, if I have made the last three or four phone calls or texts, or offered 2 or 3 invitations to get together and gotten turned down, it’s time to step back and see if that friendship can breathe on its own or if dies when I am not tending to it.
If that’s the case, I’ve learned it’s not necessary to call that person and explain why I am checking out of the friendship. They certainly didn’t call to notify me.
I don’t chase after anyone. I used to, but I learned not to bother trying to win anyone over. I make friends easily, so why sweat the disinterested? See ya.
It’s not score keeping with premeditated resentments attached, it’s just that my brain has been addled and I have had to regain the self esteem, confidence and boundaries that my emotional vampire sucked out of my head.
By writing down who did what and when for whom in my private journal, I don’t have to deliberate with anyone and seem like Woody Allen when he’s playing a neurotic nerd and asking the leading lady, “How am I doin’ on this date, am I being obsequious, or twitchy, or too laid back, or…” (STFU, Woody)
Great podcsst, Natalie. Thank you for all the hard work you do for us.
This. When you are used to undervaluing your contribution, it’s important to pay attention to where and how much things are being reciprocated (or welcomed) so you have some idea of how in- or out-of-balance things are. At least, that’s the way I see it and the way I also try to restrain my people pleasing tendencies.
For me it’s also about trying hard to let things proceed at their own pace rather than being anxious about not being liked/loved and trying to force the issue by overwhelming someone with attention. It’s all about trying to control me, not someone else.
Still a work in progress…
Kriss, That’s the way I see it too. I would add that it helps me to identify takers. Since givers often attract takers, paying attention to the imbalance and backing off on the giving will often reveal the relationship for what it is.
I can relate to everything you wrote.
I, too, keep myself on check.
I’ve read somewhere that one of the charachteristics of emotionally co-dependent people is a tendency of being overly serious (and this is why we end up with unreliable EUMS, to compensate), and in fact whenever I am tense I revert to the “best student in the class” persona, or better, she takes the stage and I struggle to not let her do a monologue.
Plus, I tend to be overly-empathic and to detected the tiniest changes of mood on other people’s “faces” (behaviour, tone of voice, etc.), and change my attitude accordingly.
Example: Yesterday I was out with a dear friend for dinner. She started talking about something serious, how she doesn’t feel good in some situations that are typically “metropolitan”. I agreed, I have felt the same in the past, and then at some point I ignored her subtle signals for changing the subject. I started talking about my goals for the future, instead, and I slighlty panicked. It’s complicated to explain what goes on in my head in these situations, but basically: the more she was distancing herself from the conversations, the more I seeked validation by talking about my goals. It’s the same as desperately trying to grasp the edge of the cliff but falling anyways, all in slow motion. Plus, all through it I was watching it all happening “from the outside”, but couldn’t help acting the way I did anyway.
I went home feeling bad because: I had bored her, I had annoyed her, I had boasted to her, I had been too intellectual, she now thinks I am a bore, she acted annoyed, she didn’t want to be around me longer, I am forever the boring good friend…
See? Exhausting. It’s not always like this these days, but it does happen, which means i have to keep working on my co-dependency.
“It’s not score keeping with premeditated resentments attached, it’s just that my brain has been addled and I have had to regain the self esteem, confidence and boundaries that my emotional vampire sucked out of my head.”, just like you say. Plus I was emotionally bullied as a child, which makes everything even more complicated.
It’s an emotional labyrinth, and I’ve come to realize that the only way out of it is mindfulness. A feelings’ diary is essential. I have one, but I use it to vent, while it should be a tool instead, something I also use before doing things, to check on my feelings and avoid people-pleasing. “She invited me but I am tired”; “He asked me to help him, how do I feel?”.
@Misa. Me too, everything you describe 100%. However, I have a tip about the solution:
“.. which means i have to keep working on my co-dependency.”
The best way to work on your co-dependency is to get rid of people who exploit you. Try it. Best, V.
Hi V.!
Yes, getting rid of “negative” people is essential, especially right after the realisation has come that one is indeed co-dependent, or has no emotional boundaries.
5 yrs ago, when I broke up with the EUM, I also got rid of my then “best friends”, who were to me like sisters, while to them I was an emotional punching ball (had been for 10 yrs). In the past few years I have become a master in getting rid of sketchy “friends”, in spite of the sometimes bitter loneliness. No contact, bye.
But this can’t be enough in the long haul. I am trying now to get to stage 2: build a healthy relationship, a healthy friendship. Otherways, I would risk becoming like my ex, emotionally unavaillable. Also, befriending people easily and then getting rid of them “brutally” might work when one is aware of being emotionally fragile, but in the long run it would be, I think, a way to avoid intimacy and to avoid evolving out of the co-dependency. Plus, one shouldn’t befriend expoitative people in the first place!
But it’s complicated, see above 🙂
As I was bullied as a child, I have triggers I can’t control, no matter how good I feel right now in my life, because my fears are so deeply ingrained.
So it might happen, like that evening I described, that I panick even though the episode isn’t in itself worth it, even though the person involved was just being herself (a bit tired, a bit competitive, a bit egocentric, but all in the “normal” variation range).
People have negative traits. Looking for “perfect” friends is what co-dependent people do (because they, we, feel constantly unworthy, and compensate).
It might be that J isn’t the right friend for me, but this time if the relationship between us ends, it will be in a “normal” way, after a talk, and with no emotional crash down on my part.
Hence the feelings diary: in spite of all the growth I sometimes panick, I know that, and it’s OK. I still might act emotionally co-dependent, and it’s OK. I embrace my weaknesses, they are OK, I am strong enough now, I can take care of them.
It’s also OK to write everything down, just as it is, and may be understand better what the triggers are, and how “guilty” the other person is for eliciting a negative reaction in me, for making me go back, albeit briefly, to the emotional labyrinth I was trapped in for so long.
This is a way of self-care, of being present in me, in the moment, without running away or forcing me to be 100% healed, 100% strong (perfectionism, a form of insecurity). I try to take care of the scared child in me, even though sometimes I still can’t, but I don’t want to be that scared child anymore.
We will make it 🙂
xoxo
Oh so timely as always Nat!
I have been single for a good few years and accumulated some male friends. But inevitably one of two things happens: 1) They try to advance with sex 2) They constantly sniff around for validation. And if I don’t meet their expectations for either, they get angry. I have recently walked away from all of my guy “friends” as it disgusts me that every one of these men think they are entitled to sex or validation. No man has any right to insist either of these things from anyone. Every time I don’t respond to these so called friends, my life gets ten times better. I mean how sick do you have to be to try and intimidate a woman into saying what you want to hear or sleeping with you?!? I don’t want to know. Just No Contact. No Contact and that is all.
Peanut – I hesitated in my response as I am male and you sound done. But, I’ve had similar situations, very hurtful situations, with women, yet I am careful not to classify them all as one. I too took a hiatus but I am positive that my “picker” is off, not my heart or willingness to grow from friend to whatever.
Reggie,
I definitely have issues with the men I choose, and I think it would be a big mistake to write off all men. And I have been witness to some of my female friends using men and then ignoring them. In fact, I have also walked away from female friends in part because it got old cringing every time I heard them speak about justifying their cruel manipulative ideology toward men. We’re all human here, every one of us deserving of basic respect. Neither sex is blameless or all to blame. It has more to do with character than gender. As far as sexually aggressive behavior and demanding validation, women can cross just as many boundaries too. Being that I’m mostly heterosexual, my adult romantic experiences (and therefore hurts) have mostly been with men. But I am cognizant and appreciative of your wise words to not classify them all as one. Agreed. Agreed.
I do think that it is possible with the opposite sex. That is, it’s possible if they are not misogynist, anti-feminist, assholes. I have at least three that if I am in their town or vice versa, I can count on them to come out for a drink, dinner, catch up, etc. and vice versa….with absolutely nooooo instance of sexual advancement or boundary busting except for the one who recently stayed in town for a night and felt that it was cool to go right back out the door at 11:59 and after arriving later than first indicated I’m literally sleepwalking at this time. My actual friend with benefits had actually left by the indicated time so I was a bit pissed about that too given we would’ve had more time together but that’s neither here nor there. It was the fact that I ended up falling asleep while trying to wait up for him and then he’s headed right back out to hang with friends and asks if he can take my key. Nope. Wasn’t feeling that.
Anyway, that’s a usual strife whether man or woman. Still no sexual tension, etc. But what I do find is that some men who you are actually involved with may be the ones with a problem regarding your friendship with the opposite sex. It’s annoying.
I didn’t know about self care until I read a book on self compassion by kristin neff (highly recommended). I used to feel guilty when I did nice things for myself, feeling overindulgent etc. but now I see it as a necessity to survive and live an enjoyable life. I exercise, I go to the spa, I have regular beauty treatments, I pay a little extra for a service if it’s going to be less stressful and I don’t have to wait in a call queue. I keep a gratitude journal, I do what’s right for me and not what others want or expect. I’d love to hear what others do for their self care…
As for men and women being friends I have several very good male friends who I’ve known half my life. Equally I have had plenty men pose as friends whose intentions weren’t always in line with that. I don’t think there’s a hard and fast rule. It depends on the relationship dynamic between 2 people
Thanks for another great podcast, look forward to the next.
I totally see how keeping score can happen in a marriage. I’m not married, never been married..never lived with a man either. I always said I would agree to marriage and childrearing if my husband and I made an ironclad deal that we would each take every other week to be 100% responsible for the children and the household – no matter what came up. So if it was HIS week, and his job required him to put in extra time, it would be HIS responsibility to find ways to handle the childcare/homework/household/car maintenance juggling. Same thing for my week.
I do not think anyone appreciates the effort that coordinating other peoples’ lives and maintaining a household takes. Nor do they appreciate the mental and physical toll it takes – not until they walk in those same shoes. So in my view, the weekly switch off would keep everybody aware of what it takes to keep a family running, and also give each person a break from meeting other people’s needs constantly.
I remember a married coworker complaining that she came home from work one evening only to be confronted by her hubby and her son about a rat that got into their basement. The hubby and son had done NOTHING but wait for her to come home and figure out what to do. They did not think to call for an exterminator themselves, or to go get some traps, or…something…anything. We women get tired of everyone looking to US to make things right in the home, and yes, sometimes we’d like to be told there was a problem and hubby already fixed it. We want to think there are TWO people rowing this boat. Bringing home the larger paycheck does not mean everything else is left to the person with the smaller paycheck. When I was working, more than likely I would probably be bringing home the larger paycheck, and I always wondered how that would play out. Do I get to make the decisions on where we go on vacation, IF we go on vacation, what furniture need we have, IF we go out to dinner..? Do I never cook, because I make more money? Do I never do dishes, or mop floors, or clean the bathroom?
You can’t base who-does-what on the financial contribution. Marriage is a ship with lots of tasks required to keep it afloat and shiny. It works best when everyone jumps in to do the tasks required. When someone on the crew starts to feel overwhelmed and undervalued, that ship is beginning to sink.
Scorekeeping while dating is essential for people-pleasers, IMO. It will keep us in check, and stop the over-giving. I watched one of those “judge” shows recently where a beautiful young woman was suing a man for the cost of a date. He had asked her out, but on the night of the date he called to say his car was “down”, could she drive? She said yes, picked him up, took him to the restaurant. He drank a six-pack worth of beer, she had one wine, they ate, the bill comes….he pats himself down and realizes he “forgot” his wallet, could she pay? She paid, drove him back home, he asks her up, she declines, he says “I’ll take you out and pay for everything next time.” End of date. She calls him repeatedly for the next few weeks looking for the date that he’ll take her out. He never responds. She feels she was gypped. The judge rules against her and tells her she needs therapy, because it is obvious that she did not know how to say goodbye to a losing proposition. The guy rubs it in in the end when he says to her “I hope you’ll take me out again sometime.” He was a creep. He used her. But she allowed it. I am sure that in her head, every time she said Yes, she was striking a deal – “I’ll drive this time, so that means he’ll do this for me next time.” “I’ll pay this time, so that means he’ll pay for everything next time.” But you can’t make deals for other people. If you are doing something and expecting a payback, you are scorekeeping. I think that the minute she offered to do the driving, he knew he had caught a sucker. Here was a woman so eager to be on a “date”, that she’ll do the driving just to have the semblance of being taken out. Remember, he asked her out. She should have said “Call me when your car is up and running. We can chat for now.” Or better yet, when he could not pay, she should have feigned going to the ladies room, and headed straight to her car and left him there.
Elgie, this guy is a career con free loader and there are many of them around. Internet helps them to get to more victims. My friend had an identical experience. She went on a blind date. True, she didn’t need to pick him up but they had a dinner, he drunk 9 glasses of wine and when there was a time to pay, he realised that he “forgot” his wallet. The bill was substantial. He later contacted her not to pay his share, but to ask her out again! I said to her that I would ghave left after his 4th glass.
I don’t know how the things stand legally – do I need to pay for both of us in such cases?
This reminds me of another old con. Somebody dies and you go to the widow and claim that the deceased owed you some money, or rhat you had a child with him who now needs a small inheritance.
Of course women and men can be friends but not each and every person is capable of it. It depends how you relate to others, some can only relate sexually and some can relate platonically.
I liked the member’s question – the guy was such a sleaze, blaming her for “leading him on” and poor him, playing the “victim”! One of the unexpected results of me bringing into awareness my people pleasing ways is that I’m suddently much better at identifying manipulative behaviours. What screamed at me was his statement that at this moment he was “very vulnerable” and “couldn’t take rejection” (of course, including sexual rejection so that’s why she should have slept with him). That reminds me of my close family member who tells everybody that he holds grudges forever so nobody ever confronts him about anything when he remembers things very differently than the rest of us, of course in his favour.
Now that I’m less scared and ashamed of rejection, I’ve also realised that one needs to call out shady behaviour. I’ve got a history of people behaving ambiguously and if confronted they’d self-righteosly claim that I miseread the situation and then I’d feel guilty for imaginining things (I wasn’t, btw). But now I’m different, I don’t care what people think. So in a similar situation I wouldn’t pretend to ignore crossing the line but I’d directly ask an ambiguous person whether I should understand certain behaviour so and so. They might self-righteously deny any shady intention but at least that moment we clarified what was meant by certain behaviour (usually the gentleman protests very much there are no intentions which is good because officially, situation is apparently clear).
There’s a good book out about giving and taking in relationships and how it affects our lives. Turns out givers can be very successful, they just have to adjust their approach to giving & learn how to spot and weed out the takers. Just started it, but it has been helpful for me so far. I was seriously wrestling with where I need to be in the balance of giving and receiving and this has been a helpful guide. It’s called Give and Take by Adam Grant. If you want the quick and dirty facts, he has a Ted Talk out there and a few You Tube videos as well.