Whenever I hear stories about casual arrangements / relationships (oxymoron’s in themselves) and the ‘driver’ of the situation insists that they have it all “under control” and that they’re both “grownups” and other such guff, I end up having to sit back and watch the ticking time bomb count down. I just know that they’re operating under a misapprehension that the other party is ‘down’ with the casual arrangement, and they often convince themselves that their conscience is clear because they’ve been upfront. The other party is often downplaying how they truly feel and doesn’t see things as being so ‘upfront’ that they’re not contending with mixed messages.
In reality, casual relationships are never as under control as we would like them to be, we may both be grownups but that doesn’t mean that we’re free to do whatever we like with no regard for the impact of our actions, and ‘upfront’ is a used and abused term that people who are the ‘driver’ in the casual relationship hide behind to absolve themselves of responsibility. It’s like “I told you I didn’t want a relationship or even that I’m not that interested in you, so if you’ve hung around, even if it’s been partly down to my flip-flapping ways, it’s not my problem.”
I recently had a Mr Unavailable complain about this very type of situation blowing up in his face. It’s not that he wasn’t ‘upfront’…it’s just that he was only upfront on a need to know basis. If she’d known the full story (that he’d begun a relationship of sorts with someone else), I doubt she’d have given him the steam off her pee, never mind continued ‘dating’ him for a rather lengthy period of time.
The key with these so-called ‘casual relationships’, which lets be real, are never really that casual as most of us cannot handle being treated or regarded casually, is that upfront, as in being totally honest about what the state of play is, is the only way to go.
The trouble is that the type of person who is going to be particularly interested in having a casual relationship is going to 1) be wary of experiencing conflict and 2) even more concerned about endangering the sex and ego stroking supply. There’s also a possible #3 – being afraid of looking like an assclown.
I know a guy who was told by his Miss Unavailable that it was just sex and fun but that it was only him that she’s seeing. Unfortunately he found out that she’s actually got about four guys on rotation and was very wounded. He knew that they weren’t in a relationship but insists that if he’d known he was one of four, he’d have stopped seeing her. To be fair, he should have stopped seeing her when she didn’t want a relationship and he was falling in love. She says that she didn’t want to hurt his feelings by telling him the truth. Yeah, I wonder how that’s working out for her… In truth though, it’s because she didn’t want to run the risk of losing his adoring ways altogether…which she has now.
Some of us don’t like the truth at the time when we hear it but ultimately appreciate the value of it when our egos have settled down.
As I said to the Mr Unavailable who knew he didn’t want a relationship a few weeks into us seeing each other, but decided to keep that card close to his chest for another 5 months, I would have appreciated the truth so that I could make an educated decision about what I did or didn’t want to be involved in. If I was in possession of all of the facts and persisted anyway, I couldn’t really argue with his actions. That said, I was in possession of the facts of his flaky actions but as is the case with these situations, there was contradictory behaviour including pursuit on his part.
Being ‘upfront’ actually means being honest even in the face of discomfort and possible conflict because you have to step up and boldly lay out the truth.
It’s like selling you a car that I know has a whole load of problems. I could keep it to myself and let you buy it and deal with the inevitable fallout later, or I could be upfront about the issues, negotiate a fair price or find a buyer who is happy to go with the car as it is. Of course the casual relationship ‘driver’ will argue that the person should do their due diligence and check out the car, likely claiming that they know the risk involved.
Upfront isn’t giving 70/80/90 or whatever percent of the story and leaving out the crucial element that is not only likely to cause conflict, but would certainly sway the other person to make an entirely different decision.
“I’m not at all interested in having a relationship” but for instance, neglecting to mention that they’ve actually been courting a relationship with someone else or sleeping with you and several others at the same time. It’s one thing if you sign up to be the Other Woman / Man or knowingly sleep with someone who is sleeping around, but it’s pretty damn shady for you to be unwittingly involved in this. Especially if you actually do your due diligence and ask about the existence of other parties.
It’s also not upfront, to be ‘upfront’ at the beginning and then keep your mouth zipped while the other party is clearly running with a different version of events but you’re not correcting it.
It’s definitely not upfront to say that you don’t want a relationship and that you’re not interested, only to then have contradictory behaviour.
Upfront is words and actions. If you know that someone feels more for you than you do them, instead of hanging around for all you can get while telling yourself that you were very frank and direct about your feelings and intentions, you step.
If you have the choice between receiving honesty or turning a blind eye and having blind faith in someone who would deign to have you in a casual relationship in the first place, I’d opt for honesty, which may mean opting out.
Upfront also cuts both ways though – if they say they want casual and you want more, say so, because trying to use casual relationships as a back door route to a ‘proper’ relationship will backfire spectacularly. It’s also important not to mislead the other party by pretending that you’re ‘down with it’ because the moment that you show that you’re not, they’ll use all of those times that you pretended to be OK as a get out clause for absolving themselves of responsibility.
Being upfront means being honest which means getting uncomfortable – casual relationships invariably involve at least one, if not both of you misrepresenting yourselves, even if it’s not ‘intended’.
I was told that it’s “emotionally immature” to expect someone to be upfront in the sense of being honest with the full facts, which is feeding into this notion that honesty is dead and that if you’re a grownup you can figure out who and what someone is, even if they are contrary and contradictory.
Actually it’s emotionally immature to treat responsibility like a hot potato and to exploit someone else’s vulnerability and naivety. That’s not to say that we’re not responsible for ourselves, but we also have to be conscientious about ‘impact’ especially when emotions and sex are involved.
If you’re thinking you probably shouldn’t mention something… it means that you probably should.
Your thoughts?
Discover more about why you’re not wearing a sign on your forehead or giving off a not good enough scent in book and ebook Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl, plus if you’d like to work on your self-esteem this summer, sign up for my Build Your Self-Esteem eCourse or The No Contact ecourse.
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Yes, for all their “upfrontness”, the drivers of casual relationships are TERRIFIED of conflict. Therefore do not expect them to be open and honest. When you try to get information from them, expect defensiveness, aggression and veiled insults. Or disappearance. Or passive aggressiveness.
They are so scared! I kinda pity them now I have nothing to do with them anymore!
You are right on the money, Grace. Veiled insults, defensiveness and p/a–that was all I got from the last one when I wanted more than what he was prepared to give…
Would have been very nice for him to have been upfront from the first, instead of later when it suited his agenda.
Boy is this timely. I was/am casually dating (sorry MiMi, been divorced 1 year, trying to get back out there) but think I need to either decide to go for the real deal or just stop dating.
I was casually dating someone, who is an assclown. I was very upfront with him about what I was looking for, asked him if he had any other women or if he was sleeping with any one else. No,No,No, not him just dating.
Of course I found out he had a girl on the side. I asked him about ther and he took off. Those of us who are causally dating are magnets for married and otherwise attached men.
Beth
I seek casual relationships. You are dead right that we become magnets for attached men.
I have a terror of being controlled, and I am disabled and disfigured. I think I smell like fresh baked crip-cookies to all the Florence Nightingales and overt/covert controllers out there!!
Bravo!!!
Thanks for this – not that I have any any intention of ever ever ever ever ever being in a casual relationship again (my cast-iron test of a man’s personality is now ‘would this person be pleasant to experience an unplanned pregnancy with?’). But it’s good to be reminded that, if you feel you can’t speak honestly then there’s summat up, either with the situation, with the other person or with you.
“I was told that it’s “emotionally immature” to expect someone to be upfront in the sense of being honest with the full facts which is feeding into this notion that honesty is dead and that if you’re a grownup you can figure out who and what someone is, even if they are contrary and contradictory.
Actually it’s emotionally immature to treat responsibility like a hot potato and to exploit someone else’s vulnerability and naivety. That’s not to say that we’re not responsible for ourselves, but we also have to be conscientious about impact.”
This is really useful to read as a reminder too – it’s so easy to get sucked into believing that, if you’re not happy with casual, then there’s something wrong with you on some level.
“if you feel you can’t speak honestly then there’s summat up, either with the situation, with the other person or with you.” I agree yoghurt, any , casual or not relationship where you cannot be honest about how you feel, often for the fear of consequences is wrong and doomed. After over a year on BR I`m about to flush a long time friendship with an AC person because it is now impossible for me to tolerate being treated so badly . I`m not that woman anymore 🙂 ! But….. it is going to upset a cart with a whole group of friends and might end up a bit kindergarden, I might even end up sushi no mates, which will not be nice. So, I have tried to place boundaries and then withdraw to a point but it has caused agression on her part ( to be honest, she is a bully) and I know very well how me being honest is going to be received. Tthere will not be good willed honest response, s++t will hit the fan and toys will fall out of pram, venom will sprout out of facial orifices ( yes it will be that bad, what was I thinking all those years). But, so be it, because I cannot call that friendship any more than a casual relationship can be called a relationship.Please wish me luck, I do need to stop being afraid of confrontation if I am to go forward. I`m so lacking in practice.
Good luck sushi!
I was in the same situation last year, and it was horrible and I thought it’d ruin my life, but it hasn’t so far. In fact, after I’d detached I found that a lot of other people in our friendship group (such as it was) felt the same way and after falling out with them one by one she now runs with a totally different crowd.
I wouldn’t feel as though you need a big explanation, though – remember, it’s not your responsibility to change anyone and you want to keep the drama to a minimum. I had in mind that, if pressed, I’d say “I feel as though the friendship has stopped being useful to either of us – it isn’t making me feel good and I don’t think that I’m very good for you either. But I really hope that everything goes well with [*specific example to show that I was bothered]”
I did – and do – go to some lengths to avoid bumping into her, which currently involves avoiding the town that she lives in. She did a fair bit of slagging off of me behind my back as well, I think, although *shrugs* that didn’t bother me too much because I knew that it was rubbish. And my friendships are different as well, although that was bound to happen with the baby anyway.
I also realised that I have some lovely old and faraway friends, and I’m currently putting more effort into maintaining links with people who proved themselves good friends in the past – which is lovely and I’m really glad. I got out of the habit of bothering, mostly because it seemed like a large effort for a small return, but that was silly.
Don’t know if any of this helps, but I’ll be thinking of you
Hi yoghurt, yes, it does help , a lot, thank you!
I can`t believe how scarily similar your situation is to mine.
I somehow thought I had owed her an explanation, but when I look from your angle, it is suddenly so much easier- the keeping of drama to a minimum. I don`t know why I felt the need to explain ( I often do, like I`m not allowed to make choices) but it would come off as me telling her all about herself- not a good move. She loves drama, even “feeds” off it and I just can`t stand to be around it and the all the negativity so I am avoiding it and her which then makes her react – more negativity for me to try to get away from. Vicious circle. Just got off the phone with her as a mutual friend ended up in a hospital and I feel like I`m about to hyperventilate. This is so similar a feeling when I got to the end of the tolerance road with my last AC, scary. And ditto with faraway friends. Thanks again yoghurt x
Oh good, I’m glad it helped 🙂
I remember helping out at school a while back with a module about friendships for the little Year 7s (11-year-olds), where they basically said “while you’re at secondary school your friendships will probably change and some will end and that’s okay. But you need to think about how you can handle those changes kindly and with dignity”.
And I thought “if 11-year-olds can grasp that concept then why can’t I?” (I have to admit that I also thought “why did no-one teach that when I was at school?”)
You don’t need to tell her about herself, and tbh – as with an AC – there’s no point even hoping that she’ll see things from your point of view or feel bad about it, she won’t – if she had the capacity and the self-critique then she’d wouldn’t be doing it in the first place.
I found that it also helped when I saw it as a dynamic – yep, my ‘friend’ was very very difficult, but the way that I was around her (over-solicitous and eager-to-please and listen and analyse things that weren’t really true and so on) might’ve offered instant gratification but didn’t help her or her life at all – if I was a really good friend then I’d’ve been more honest and stood up to her more. And I couldn’t, so it wasn’t a good friendship. No loss to her as well as me.
How right you are yoghurt. AC partner or a friend…..the same mould. I can clearly see now telling her about herself would be pointless and it`s not for me to do, but I do have a choice in how I feel about the situation and a choice to distance myself. The dynamics…it`s just as wrong as the one I had with my past AC/EU partners. It is bad for me and I would like to just go NC but it`s tricky. Other friendships in the group might be the price I`ll have to pay, but there is always a price when you break up. I really need to do this for me.
I’ve found a similar situation with my friendships too. There is such as thing as being ‘unavailable for friendship’, and that’s where you don’t talk to them, they don’t talk to you, you invite them to things but they never come and they never invite you to anything.
After I recovered from my fantasy AC experience, I began cutting so called ‘facebook friends’ because they just weren’t contributing anything to my life at all and all it was was a foothold, a ‘friend’ option or (can I say this??) casual friendship
Yep, Tired, you’ve probably seen me talk about the same thing. Those “friends” expect you to accept their invitations, attend their functions, but the shoe’s never on the other foot! I have friends I’ve developed through my business and we used to do things on off time as well, and often I’ve done them work favors, ONLY because of the friendship, only to have them drop off the face of the earth when I need something, or just need them as a friend. Or non business friends basically doing the same thing. Pathetic. I’ve cut about 50% of my closer “friends” because they are never there for ME, though I’ve busted my a@@. to be there for them.
T_O_A, I am guilty of not paying enough attention to friends when my head was stuff like personal problems, health problems , AC boyfriend problems. Yes , it is a mistake. And it is true, my “engaged” head did make me unavailabe for friendship. I have a friend who checked out of my life for a couple of years when she was going through marriage problems. I don`t hold grudges for that, we are back in touch, it`s fine. It`s not like she was ignoring me on purpose. But…there are people who just take the p++s, and that`s a different story and then there are people who are all about the superficial.
So true!!!
yoghurt: Those 2 paragraphs that you quoted are 2 of the best in this blog post. Saying that that’s “emotionally immature” is a sick manipulative mind game that EUM, EUW, and all-around ass-wipes use to guilt vulnerable people into falling in line with their agenda – that agenda being “have my cake, eat it too, wanna know anything else? then screw you”.
I know – but isn’t it weird how you can get sucked into believing it? Even when it’s demonstrably dumb and unworkable in real life.
Yep! Amazing how easily we fell for that garbage. 😐 Never again.
“Upfront is both words and actions. If you know that someone feels more for you than you do them, instead of hanging around for all you can get while telling yourself that you were very frank and direct about your feelings and intentions, you step.”
It’s unfortunate for me, but I have dated some great guys and figured out that I couldn’t give them what they deserved, so I had to let them go. But I’ve also been the one to waste a man’s time while I knew that he wanted the relationship that I wouldn’t, or couldn’t, give him. The latter approach came from purely selfish reasons, and while I’m sure that I was dropping hints left and right that I wasn’t really into the situations, the responsible mature approach would have been to just speak it and act accordingly. Learning from situations in which I’ve felt undervalued, I know that I would never want to encourage any man I date to go through that. I don’t think that we’re necessarily responsible for other people or their feelings, but we can certainly try to remain aware of how our actions (or lack thereof) can affect another person.
“I was told that it’s “emotionally immature” to expect someone to be upfront in the sense of being honest with the full facts which is feeding into this notion that honesty is dead and that if you’re a grownup you can figure out who and what someone is, even if they are contrary and contradictory.”
Wow, the things people say. That sounds so incredibly backwards. I would figure that it may be a bit naive to expect everyone to behave properly, but never would I consider that emotional immaturity. Sounds like a good standard to have, at least to me. It’s true that many people do not know how to communicate effectively, but if they’ve only expressed half of their intended message, whose fault is it if that message is misinterpreted? Certainly not anyone’s but their own.
Great post, you just gave me a good conversation for dinner this evening’s double date…
Does anyone have information on why men want casual relationships? Hear me out: Is it that they always have something more serious with someone else? You said this guy was “starting something with someone else.” I just got in to a similar situation where I was almost certain the guy was doing something with someone else. Hmmm…what gives? Is that always the way it goes?
Assclown Free – the woman he has started something with doesn’t know that he has another woman, so he is clearly not having something more serious with the other woman. That said, if you participate in a casual relationship, you have no claim if they do start elsewhere, especially with someone who believes they have been upfront. Casual relationships mean that you cannot have relationship rights. If you would object to them starting something elsewhere, it’s not casual.
I have a friend who fell hard in love with a guy who is “going through a divorce” (I put that in quotes because papers have not been filed.) He met her online and they dove right in to a sexual relationship– her thinking she can be casual with him until he realizes how wonderful she is and how he should be with her instead of staying online and meeting more women. One day he told her he was flirting with someone on line and wanted to test the waters with this other woman. Said he would resent my friend if she didn’t let him see the other woman. My friend convinced herself that she was “cool” with it even though it hurt. She figured it wouldn’t work with the other woman and he would see that he is happy with her (my friend). She played it cool and dolled herself up, wrote him loving emails… Well, it didn’t work with the other woman, so she thinks she won and that they have something special. But she tells me things like she thinks he should date around since he is getting out of a marriage and she would want him to and she would be ok with that and that maybe she doesn’t want to get married herself, blah blah blah. Well, they are still “going strong” a year and a half later. He is still active on the online dating sites and still married (“separated”), and she is as happy as can be (so she says). I see it as casual, she sees it as love and gushes about it all the time. I guess time will tell.
A friend of my ex husband was once dating two women at the same time. Nr. 1 knew he wasn´t exclusive but said she didn´t mind, nr. 2 didn´t know. At the end, after a lot of drama, nr. 2 left him when she found out and he ended up living with unconditional nr. 1. They´ve been together for years now and have a daughter.
The thing is, how he spoke of her when the drama was unfolding was “yeah, nr. 1 has earned the prize because of her consistency, so I guess I´ll stay with her”. This was while he was trying to win back nr. 2 with a lot of future faking, crocodile tears and other BS.
I found this so offensive I asked him “the prize?? so you´re the prize in this situation?” and he just grinned hyena-like.
Years later, my ex tells me his friend treats nr. 1 – now his official partner – worse than a doormat, he´s a complete bully. So she may have “won” the prize, but nr. 2 is the one who won in the end.
“Casual relationships mean that you cannot have relationship rights. If you would object to them starting something elsewhere, it’s not casual.” Okay, this one goes on my mirror. He, he, I thought an OW had relationship rights. What a moron.
Assclown Free, I’m thinking it’s the way it goes when we allow it to go there. If you are “almost certain the guy was doing something with someone else” and you object, it may be time to consider the flush handle. Just my one cent. Don’t hope or dream of an upgrade once you’ve established doormat status. I’ve been the doormat. Once a doormat, always a doormat. Cut and run.
My last relationship which was on/off for several years… I’ve been NC for two months now. And.. doing great, btw.. yay!! Looking back, minus the emotions… I can’t believe how casual it actually was. However, my ex AC/EUM would say that he wanted to be with me, have me as his girlfriend, do things with me and see me all the time. Which, I have to be honest… he did call and want to see me every day. But when we were together, it was really just sex… and some companionship… his friends, hobbies and family all came first. His actions didn’t match his words, kind of the opposite situation of this post, but still mind effery regardless.
Two months of really being single… and thoughts of him on the back burner.. I can’t believe how many nice, attractive men are approaching me. Guess it would make sense after dropping the 215 lb monkey on my back, lol..
It’s me again…
This post couldn’t have come at a better time as I’m trying to heal from my casual relationship. Everything you’ve said is so true.
The driver in my casual relationship was never 100% upfront, probably about 70%. When he first brought up he went out with someone else, he brought it up so casually and then dropped it as if it was nothing. That he “liked dating for the sake of dating.” Then he proceeded to tell me how girlfriends are expensive and time consuming. He said this while he was holding my hand and telling me sweet nothings only moments before! I was a little shocked when that happened and kind of withdrew for the rest of the date. Looking back, that’s exactly when I should have walked away, but I didn’t. Mostly because I kept getting mixed signals of “I’m trying to find a job, do this, do that, etc.” That it wasn’t the “right time” for a relationship for him. And that he didn’t do long distance. We lived about 2 hours apart…we met on a dating site where he clearly knew the distance upfront. So why pursue when there was an issue right there?!
I brought up where we were going down the line when things started picking up and I got more of the same added in with some “I’ve been cheated on, relationships are messy, why can’t we take each day as it comes and see what happens? I don’t want to lose you, etc.” So again I stayed because even though he said all that when we were together it was as if I was the only girl in the world around him. The attention, the words, the way he would treat me when we were together, the I miss you’s, the we go so well togethers.” I was so confused I couldn’t just let it all go when I was confused by his own actions.
And so it went like that for awhile longer, more visits and sweet talk. He ended up moving away to some shitty situation with his ex and her current husband for a job that he never got paid for. He then ended up moving back where it all went to shitsville. As he was driving back home to his mother (he’s 25), he asked if I had met anyone else in that month. I said no I haven’t that I had been busy with university and just enjoying myself. He seemed pleased. And eventually it turned into the same conversation of where is this even going? While he was even farther away in that month he kept telling me how much he missed me and wanted me there. He would mark his…
That it wasn’t the “right time” for a relationship for him. And that he didn’t do long distance. We lived about 2 hours apart…we met on a dating site where he clearly knew the distance upfront. So why pursue when there was an issue right there?!
Oh Gina! I can take you out of your story and put me in there to make it mine! SAME SITUATION!
I have friends who’s partners did make them the exception to the rule, and flew across continents to be with the person they fell for, and this AC could not even organise themselves to see me and they only lived in the next city over!
I wish I knew why I wasn’t enough for him to want to step up or move mountains…I feel like I wasn’t enough for him for him to want someone else too.
gina
if it’s any consolation, no one woman is enough for him. He lacks the emotional depth to form a deep bond with a person so is forever relegated to the twilight zone of screwing people over for fun, attention, sex, novelty and seduction. If you turn round and say to me “Why aren’t I good enough to make him change and want a deep bond with me?” I will cyberslap you!
You can keep beating this dead horse if you want to, but it’s not going to get you anywhere. He is what he is and the sooner you realise it and walk away, the better. This has gone on entirely too long as it is. NC him.
You are young. He is not the last man on earth. And if he was, I’d still be looking into alternatives.
Now that he’s moved back, he told me he can’t give me the long-term relationship I want because he’s moving even farther away again in two months and doesn’t want a two month relationship. Yet, also said that we have a “bet on the future.”
Nice, huh? Don’t see why we can’t just give it a go, since he even said him being there would be temporary. Commitment issues?
I hear what this post is saying. They don’t like or want the conflict so they play the victim of their own making, then come to you as though you should be comforting them. Oh please… I did that until I followed my intuition realising that they were just using me like they used all the other women around them. Scandalous they are. Oh well, NC has helped for the last 2 months and I don’t feel bad nor sorry that they’ve gone either. It’s like a weight off my shoulder.
I have carried on what I now consider a “casual relationship” for many, many years. I was told that I was the only one he was seeing in the beginning. I believed him. I was told that he wanted a future with me, I believed him. This went on for over 6 years – off and on. I would get fed up and walk away. I would find out lies, and walk away. I would keep returning for the same behavior over and over again. I finally woke up. I finally ended it. I want what I want, and that is some thing he can not give me. I deserve (and now demand) respect, some thing he has never given me. I want what I want, and he can not give me that. First it starts with self-respect – that is some thing I can only give myself. Once I realized that, if he can’t give me respect, he doesn’t deserve mine. End of story! If he doesn’t deserve my respect he surely does not deserve my love. That I will save for me…and one day will share with another who has self respect and a healthy love for me as well.
It’s scary how right on this is…. Almost my like verbatim…
I just ended a month long “relationship” with someone who wanted to keep it casual, and completely agree with being upfront about your feelings even if it’s a uncomfortable topic.
Even though this guy was after me for nearly two years to be with him. Long story short, soon after we got together he acted like a typical EUM and started telling me he was too busy, our work shedules didn’t mesh, he needed time for his friends, & drinking, gaming, etc. When I asked how he felt about me or where he wanted to go with things he said, “I don’t know, “I don’t want to hurt you”, & “let’s keep things casual for now”, etc. Combine all this with mostly text communication & still wanting to see me to go further physically without dates progressing or any real intamacy, I told him this would not work for me and broke it off before my heart was too invested, that’s the key. it hurt a lot to break it off, but It would’ve been worse staying with someone who you can’t invest, depend on, or even love in the long run.
This sounds like my story too. I’m a MAGNET for No Intimacy Mr Unavailables and it is just ridiculous. I get relegated to roles such as lunch buddy, dinner buddy, ‘cuddle friend’ or they act like a complete and total frigid block of ice around me, no public affection or anything.
Why am I a no-intimacy unavailable magnet!?!
Tired,
Have you thought it may be the men you are attracted to? If there is a pattern, you need to look within.
toa
You give them the power. They blow hot, you get your hopes up. They disappear, you start doubting yourself and believing you’re an AC magnet. You even try to get them back.
You LET them treat you like a buddy. If you don’t want to be their buddy, don’t respond. You don’t have to reply to the texts.
You think about their motivations, it doesn’t matter. Once you’ve flushed them, they’re nothing more to do with you. There’s no need to convince them of anything or change them. I like these lyrics from Voice of the Beehive:
“I don’t say nothing, I speak to no-one. I know what I believe no need to wear it on my sleeve.”
It”s what’s inside you that makes you. These clowns only have the power you give them. Maybe, on some level still, you think they are worth winning over,that they’re better than you, it’s worthwhile impressing them or trying to change them, they have something to offer. They don’t. They’re nothing to you. All you have to do is stay out of their way.
I see them coming a mile off -they are so completely foreign to me now. Nothing about them chimes with me at all. The charm, the drama, the future faking – it’s just … boring. HALLELUJAH!
I’m exactly the same. I’ve realised in the past few weeks that there is a very fine line between being laid-back in a relationship/arrangement/whatever and being a pushover. I thought my strategy of ‘If I don’t complain about how flaky he is, and how we never really go on real dates, and I don’t pressure him into anything, then he will think I’m this amazingly cool girl that he definitely wants to be in a relationship with’. Errr, no, actually I’ve just been a bit of a doormat. I let it happen out of fear of seeming ‘needy’. I should get it into my brain that when I meet someone right for me they will ‘provide’ and I won’t need to need.
Wow, Jenny… This is EXACTLY what I have been doing for 3 years. Trying to be the cool, low-maintenance, easy-to-get-along-with girl he would learn to appreciate and want more from eventually. Thought he would let me in slowly but surely since I was so “cool”. I feel so pathetic looking back on it now- Only 4 days NC, but it’s the umpteenth and FINAL time for me!
Snap! I’m on 4 days NC too, also for the umpteenth and final time. And I’ve managed to ignore his contact too which is completely new for me. I always got such a buzz when I actually heard from him (because it happened so inconsistantly) but that would last for about 1 minute, compared to all the days and weeks I’d feel bad for not hearing anything. It’s a relief to break that cycle!
It’s amazing the strange repeat patterns we find here. My last “boyfriend” pursued me for an entire year – he’d met me, “could never forget me”, I was so attractive, intelligent, and interesting – blah blah blah – at that time I was not available. When I was, I decided to give him a try. He came on strong; Future Faker style, and he had me. He toyed with me as a cat toys with a mouse, then abruptly dumped me after enjoying good sex and company for a time (clearly his issues, as we’d gotten along fine – but he is an attractive, eligible, sought after, publically visible guy which went to his head – he can’t be happy with just one). I think for guys like this, that chase over a long period of time, it IS about the chase. Once they “catch” you, they are bored. It is nothing more than an egotistical challenge. The first song we slow danced to was “Wicked Game.” Ha. That is now his theme song.
‘I think for guys like this, that chase over a long period of time, it IS about the chase. Once they “catch” you, they are bored. It is nothing more than an egotistical challenge.’
YES.
I know I’m all over this particular blog post, and am prolly boring the bejeezuz outta everyone but…
I prefer casual flings, and this is what I’ve discovered: If the chase for sex is removed those types of men will pursue the NEXT thing that’s held away…in my case, emotions or ‘love’.
But it’s not ‘me’ they’re chasing. It’s not about me as a person, at all. And it’s not about you either. It’s THEM. That’s their crappy nature.
Good for you, Misa!!! Casual is great for him, but not what you want and is not great for you. I wish I would have walked away from those situations so long ago. Glad I at least know now!
*life*
“Actually it’s emotionally immature to treat responsibility like a hot potato and to exploit someone else’s vulnerability and naivety. That’s not to say that we’re not responsible for ourselves, but we also have to be conscientious about ‘impact’ especially when emotions and sex are involved.”
This is so refreshing to read! I had this guy once telling me after all the mixed messages, flirtation, ‘I miss you” etc…that I was the one hurting myself by having any kind of expectations.
“It’s also important not to mislead the other party by pretending that you’re ‘down with it’ because the moment that you show that you’re not, they’ll use all of those times that you pretended to be OK as a get-out clause for absolving themselves of responsibility.”
I told my Assclown that I was “okay with it” and I was a “big girl” and could “handle it”.
But the truth was I couldn’t handle it. I didn’t want to be casual, a side dish to his real life. And when I asked for more from him and he said no, he did exactly what you predicted: “I told you this was casual. You said you could handle it!” Somehow he turned it around so I was the crazy one for wanting more. Maybe I was? But that’s done now, thank goodness.
Readers, if you think this post doesn’t apply to the casual relationship you’re in, your relationship is different, your man is special…think again. Nat is right on with this stuff!
No, you’re not crazy for wanting more. You were just naive – or perhaps dishonest with yourself – about what you could handle emotionally. But, to me, it is just as naive and dishonest for someone to assume that the other partner will be able to control his/her feelings. The truth is, neither party knows what will happen when the two of you start having sex, but the odds of at least someone getting attached emotionally are exceptionally high – we’re human beings. To tell the other person, “You don’t have a right to be mad because we agreed this is casual,” – well, that may be true by certain ‘rules,’ but it strikes me as beside the point. Your feelings are your feelings. But, as Natalie says, when you do finally speak up about what you really want, that is precisely when the relationship will end (or, worse, transform into whole new levels of craziness and drama), because now you both have to accept the fact you’re on different pages.
Good for you for standing up for what you wanted. You are much better positioned now to enjoy your life, and be open to more fulfilling friendships and relationships. 🙂
Great post. It still didn’t change my mind about preferring casual relationships (and I’m aware I will probably get flamed again for this opinion), as that is what I want, but I have to agree that most people can’t do them. None I’ve found yet anyway. It is good to read this post and make sure that I am still conducting these casual relationships with honesty, integrity and decency from my side.
I don’t agree that all people who want casual relationships are terrified of conflict. I have no problems with conflict. My terror is being overwhelmed and controlled. Most of my casual relationships have been ended by the other party due to conflict…conflict that usually occurs because I don’t want to shift from casual to something more. Sometimes they end cos I’ve been played.
The rest are ended by me either because I sense very quickly that they are not equipped for a casual thing, and to keep going would hurt them. I don’t want that. Or I end it because they have shady behaviour …they try to treat me with disrespect because they don’t know how to be respectful outside of a relationship that ‘keeps them in line’…or I find out they are also seeing ‘RSVP.com’ type women. I dump them immediately because those women are clearly stating they are looking for a serious relationship and I will not be complicit in deceiving them.
Can I ask why casual relationships work for you when for instance you could have one night stands or 3 times then move on or an open relationship?
I know many couples that have open relationships and ‘play’ together.
toa
butting in here but maybe – convenience and knowing they’re not an axe murderer.
Still Standing, I appreciate your honesty, it´s enlightening to see things from the other side.
The thing is, I was thinking you probably need to work on your boundaries if it´s been overwhelmed and controlled that you fear. Once you know what your limits are it will be easier for you to respect them, and others will respect them as well.
Lilia….you are spot on. I always thought I had boundaries, but since discovering BR I have realised they were all wishy washy. Coming here has helped me define them, and the casual flings help me practice them.
I want to state: I am on an ‘adult dating’ (read: sex) site. The great majority of the men on that site have assclown tenancies. There are a tiny amount of seemingly nice, but lost men on there….they’re the ones I end things gently with, and feel bad about rejecting (no one likes it). I can’t give them what they want, and to try would damage them. I don’t want that. The rest of them are the type of men that are spoken about on this site. I don’t feel sorry for them.
Grace – yes, axe murderer, and also as I am disabled and disfigured so the first time I have sex it’s full of embarrassment and awkwardness as we figure out the mechanics of it, and they have to deal with looking at my burns and scars. Lots don’t come back. If they do, I get to relax a bit. If not, I have to screw up my courage again….this is for casual AND serious relationships. All require sex for the first time.
AC – I have no probs with open relationships per se, but most people can’t do them. They are very tricky…lots of room for mind efferry. Sleeping with someone on a regular basis forms attachment…it’s normal and unavoidable. Forming an attachment then seeing that person play can really mess with your head. The one night stands I cover in my answer to Grace.
I don’t have multiple men on the go at one time. I can’t do that. But I don’t care if they have multiple women, as long as they don’t use it against me, eg comparisons or peer pressure (she does it, why wont you?)….if they do that, they’re out.
I’m not saying my way is the ‘right’ way. Far from it. But I did want to highlight that its not just men that want it that way. I think sometimes there is a focus here that men are ‘bad’ for wanting casual sex. There may be emotional as well as biological reasons.
I have hormone problems, and have taken many types of HRT over the years. It is ASTOUNDING how different hormone levels completely alter your mind. When I took more estrogen I wanted to wear pink, pretty dresses and melted over puppies. Cried a lot for no reason.
One time I took HRT that saw my testosterone shoot up for 6 weeks. WHOA! was I DIFFERENT!! – far less regard for my physical safety, way more energy and OMG – sex!!! It was ALWAYS on my mind. I could focus on a task, but as soon as I finished my brain said “Any chance of getting laid?”. It was like a constant sonar. I went on the prowl, just like a guy – ‘you’re not interested? Ok, next!”. I felt like if I didn’t have an orgasm every day I would EXPLODE.
This experience TOTALLY changed my perception of men+ sex. I have spoken to many men about my experience and the all say one of two things: Yep, that’s how it is, or yep that’s how it was till my late 40’s/50’s.
Their sex drive is NOTHING like our sex drive. And society makes them ‘bad’ for what is a biological drive, the same as eating. Yes, we can control our eating habits, but you never lose the biological drive to eat.
sorry…AC …should be ‘tired of assinova’. Very sorry, not saying you are an AC!!! eeep 🙁
I know plenty of young fit men who can run on a football pitch for over an hour, who aren’t having sex because they are waiting for marriage (perhaps the running about is an outlet).
I’m not disagreeing with your experience, but sex doesn’t have to drive our choices and lifestyle. Some choose to prioritise it, but it’s still their choice. It doesn’t own us.
Which is exactly the point I made in the last sentence.
Say you’re on a diet. Not cos you really want to be, but cos society makes overweight people ‘bad’ (lazy, weak-willed etc) and you don’t want those labels. So you make a choice to diet, as food doesn’t have to drive your lifestyle. But the drive to eat is still there.
When you diet, you crave the foods you are denying yourself. That’s a normal physical response. You can’t control the cravings, but you can learn not to eat carbs.
You meet someone eating a jam sandwich. You say that sandwich looks real good, and you mean that. It DOES look good. They offer you a bite. They tell you it’s fat-free. You are salivating looking at that sandwich, and your body is going crazy for a bite. Maybe you’ve had a bad day, and are struggling with willpower. And it’s just one bite of a freely offered, fat-free sandwich.
You take a bite, and it tastes sooo good. The sugar floods your brain with endorphins. It’s the best thing you’ve eaten for ages. You may even blurt out “omg this sandwich is the BEST!”. Are you a bad person for taking that bite?
Then you notice the other person looking at you expectantly, and you realise they now expect a bite of your chicken. But they hadn’t said that when they offered the sandwich. Your chicken is the only meal you’ll get that day. You’re already deprived of food, and now they want some of your chicken!
What to do? You could say no, and deal with an upset person who labels you selfish for taking a bite of their freely offered sandwich without returning the gesture. They say you should have known that the jam sandwich, or any food, was important to them. And that when you said the sandwich looked good they took it to mean you always wanted a bite of their sandwich, and theirs alone.
Or you could offer your chicken so as to be fair. But you resent them for not being upfront about the sandwich, so when they offer you another bite, dammit, you’ll take it. Fairs fair….and a jam-for-chicken circle begins.
Eating is not bad. Not immoral or illegal. Not disrespectful. Purely a biological drive. But some foods are more valuable to some people. If you value your jam sandwich then you need to act in ways that clearly state that value, and be very selective to whom you offer a bite.
“…if you participate in a casual relationship, you have no claim if they do start elsewhere, especially with someone who believes they have been upfront. Casual relationships mean that you cannot have relationship rights. If you would object to them starting something elsewhere, it’s not casual.”
Funny – that’s what I was thinking all along. While being dishonest is bad, the key dishonesty here is, in my opinion, being in a casual relationship and pretending that you have relationship rights.
If you’re in a casual relationship and expect not to be treated casually, you aren’t being upfront with yourself.
“While being dishonest is bad, the key dishonesty here is, in my opinion, being in a casual relationship and pretending that you have relationship rights.
If you’re in a casual relationship and expect not to be treated casually, you aren’t being upfront with yourself”.
You’re right, Lawrence – and it’s the years of self-deception, during what I knew was really only meant to be a casual arrangement, that I found the most hurtful thing in the end, and the hardest of all to deal with in the aftermath. That’s why self-respect is so vital – if we respect ourselves then there’s no way we’re going to deceive ourselves like this.
Lawrence,
What you seem to be suggesting is that if someone accepts the terms of a casual relationship, they are also opening the door to being treated badly in all ways, and will, in fact, have to accept that. am I right?
I can’t help feeling that you are suggesting that to agree to a casual relationship invites all the crap that goes with it, and rightly so?
Of course, when a casual relationship is on offer, what is really being offered, always by the ‘Driver’ is license to have everything all on their own terms. No one, even someone agreeing to a casual relationship, consciously agrees to that.
It may well be inevitable that casual sex lead to shabby behaviour on the part of the ‘driver’, but no amount of acquiescence by the other person, excuses the ‘driver’s behaviour. There is no ‘key’ dishonesty here, that can be seen to mitigate shabby, inconsistent behaviour.
Just thought I’d make that point.
Hi, Kate –
Well, I *think* I’m saying basically what Natalie is saying here (though she can speak for herself, of course).
What I’m suggesting is that ultimately we should take responsibility for our choices in relationships. That in no way mitigates the wrong-doing of others – they’re responsible for what they’re responsible for, as the truism goes – but it does shift the emphasis from “other-blame” to self-examination, which I believe is the most productive and empowering avenue of analysis in relationships and pretty much everything else in our lives.
I didn’t mean to suggest that being in a casual relationship confers some form of moral carte blanche to your partner. I do mean to suggest that in entering into a casual relationship you are exposing yourself to the high probability of infidelity, having your interests discounted, and various other misunderstandings. It’s kind of like walking in an inner city alley with a wad of cash in your open palm: no one has the right to mug or assault you, but you are exposing yourself to that likelihood, and for that you are responsible, I think.
Lawrence
I agree with you Lawrence,
It shouldn’t take a ‘real’ relationship to *make* a person treat another with care and respect.
If that’s what it takes for them to reach a basic level of decency then they aren’t worth having a relationship in ANY way, shape or form.
Excellent points made here. If a guy says up front his intention is for things to remain “casual” – e.g., no strings attached, anything goes on the side – no thanks. But at least he gets points for honesty, so women can decide whether or not to play in this game.
But then there is this: “I would have appreciated the truth so that I could make an educated decision about what I did or didn’t want to be involved in.” A big problem. Many guys want casual and that is their intention, but they somehow “forget” to tell the woman that – of course knowing most don’t want casual and aren’t going to be involved in a sexually intense relationship with them if it is declared casual/non exclusive/no future. They may say nothing, or they may completely BS you, as my last guy did to me.
You’re so right. Too many of us women hang around in casual, thinking it will evolve to something else. I’ve almost never seen this happen!
I finally learned – time will tell; time will reveal the truth of the situation – especially with BS’ers/future fakers. It is definitely worth having a discussion about what you both want – that will at least weed out the declared casuals, or those who are evasive with the topic.
“Many guys want casual and that is their intention, but they somehow “forget” to tell the woman that – of course knowing most don’t want casual and aren’t going to be involved in a sexually intense relationship with them if it is declared casual/non exclusive/no future. They may say nothing, or they may completely BS you, as my last guy did to me.”
Good point – I find it scary how many men (/people) are now prepared to be completely and horrifically dishonest in order to keep a casual relationship chugging along.
I think, as well – thinking back to the last casual relationship I was in – that they may hoodwink you by demanding the trappings of a relationship – emotional support, an ego-boost, an armchair psychologist or a shoulder to cry on (it blew me away the first time I read those words on BR) FROM YOU without being prepared to commit to any sort of reciprocal activity.
I was always on my guard about being used for sex, I wasn’t on my guard about being used for sympathy and a listening ear. It made me think that there was ‘something’ there, even though he ‘didn’t want a relationship’.
That was sneaky on his part, as well as being graspy, entitled and thievey.
I was always on my guard about being used for sex, I wasn’t on my guard about being used for sympathy and a listening ear.
I was used for cuddle! Like a teddy bear! And text ping pong! And lunches!
Absolutely right Yoghurt. It isn’t just about these men wanting sex. Being used for emotional support / armchair psychologist feels just as horrible in the end and is definately much harder to spot. You are spot on here.
I was reading an Introduction to Counselling book recently and the thing that struck me was that it clearly stated that the key feature of that relationship is that the counsellor gives and the person getting counselling receives. There is NO reciprocity. So I would say you have to be very very careful of people who want an armchair therapist. It can feel very attractive and intense initially but is very damaging and can be quite abusive if you don’t see it for what it is.
I had the upfront game played with me for 6 years. 6 years!! Now that it’s all gone for two years already, I cannot believe I was such an idiot. He went that far to even propose a few times, in a casual way of course! 6 years I and another 8 women were treated casually and played with, and each of us was ‘warned’ on a regular 6 months basis that “he is not ready for a relationship”. The other problem I saw with the upfront bull*hit is that on my part, I really wanted to be a cool, not needy person, I also believed it’s probably something of a modern way thing to happen like that.
I’ve grown so much for the last 2 years, and with the help of this blog particularly that I don’t believe that all that bull*hit happened to the same person!
Diana, it is good that we can take responsibility.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me a hundred times over x number of years, shame on us both.
“Upfront bullsh*t” it is. It wouldn’t carry on that long if he was genuinely and completely upfront. I have to own up to my own bullsh*t. ‘Just acting out of love, following my heart, this is so real, it doesn’t need a name, he just doesn’t appreciate what he’s got’, also rubbish.
We have to own it and move on. So much to learn from it and a great BS-free future ahead 🙂
I am in a situation so like this – and I’m worried it’s going to (as you put it) backfire spectacularly.
It’s a bit complicated because we once a serious relationship, and had a baby (who is now 6 months old).
Our relationship went through the epitome of hell from the time I was 8 months pregnant until she was 6 weeks old – so through the birth. We both contributed to this hell, as well as outside factors. In the end he left us (the baby and me) and moved 50 miles away, took a new job, and wanted to forget about us. I was devastated, completely heartbroken. I tried everything to hold on to him, but eventually gave up. When I gave up and could breathe again, eat again, and sleep again, he suddenly wanted back in my life. Since then we have been having a casual relationship that consists of him coming to my house every weekend and spending his time with the baby and I.
I’ve talked to him many times and we are both upfront with our feelings – I would like to think we are working towards something, the possibility we will work things out and be a family. He says there is no chance that will happen, that we are only doing this for the baby. But we sleep together, go out together, visit each other’s familys together, he tells me he loves me, we hold each other, etc. It was so traumatic when he originally left, I know I don’t want to go through that again.
The thing is though, the longer we do this, the more I wonder if I really even want to be with him. Am I just having a casual relationship too? Or am I setting myself up for a huge fall?
Hollywood,
a similar thing just happened to a friend of mine but there was no child involved to complicate things further. It lasted several years, and like with you, he was spelling it out in black and white throughout, that he does not want a relationship. Followed by crumbs that she was holding on to. Yes, it backfired spectacularly…..and she was outraged and surprised. Don`t do it to yourself, believe in what he says. I think you are just putting off the inevitable. x
Hollywood:
I thought I had a pretty raw deal (got pregnant by a casual relationship) but this sounds awful. I wasn’t ever in your particular situation (partly because I moved away during my pregnancy to avoid it), but here are the questions that I’d be asking at this point:
a) how is this best for the baby? Isn’t it best for the baby to have a secure, happy mummy and stability and consistency as he/she is growing up?
b) what does he mean when he says that he isn’t prepared to be a family or work things out? Is he expecting to meet someone else? How does he envison the situation changing in the future?
c) if he DOES meet someone else (I’m sorry, I know it’s awful to even think about) then what will he expect from you in terms of facilitating his relationship with the baby?
d) what will your emotional rights be if he meets someone else? Doesn’t he expect you to find it very very painful?
e) again, if he DOES meet someone else, how will he expect to handle that relationship alongside his relationship with the child?
f)on the grounds that it’s best for the baby to have consistency, how would he ultimately like your relationship to be? Is it realistic? Shouldn’t he be working towards that now?
This dude is – probably – going to be in your life until the baby grows up and that’s not going to be the marvellous deal that you might think, particularly if he meets someone else and expects to set up a little family unit with YOUR child (I’m there now, it’s been painful and I’ve not really had the ‘right’ to mind). Therefore the MOST important thing is to commit to setting up a CONSISTENT and RECIPROCAL relationship – even if it’s not a close one – so that you can co-parent and set a healthy example for the baby as it grows up. You don’t want him/her growing up and watching you get treated like shit or having hugely disruptive life-changes when Dad gets fed up and moves on.
Besides which, if you have to go through the pain of a breakup (which he’s telling you that you will, effectively) then you’re better off getting it out of the way before the baby can remember it. That sounds awful but it’s true.
I’m really sorry, because I’ve an inkling of how difficult this must be – there aren’t any easy answers – and I feel dreadful for you, but I think that it’s better to consider these things now. I’d sit down with him…
…and ask him, so that you’ve a clearer idea of what to expect and can start planning accordingly.
Good luck xx
This is already a fail.
Tell him that you are worth more than a part-time weekend lover and he either steps up to be with you properly or he takes a hike. He’s got it on a plate. All the fun of the fair and AT ANY POINT he can just waft off? Sod that.
You do have to work out how you can co-parent but that doesn’t necessitate sleeping with him or playing house.
At the very least stop having sex with him. It goes like this:
” I can no longer have sex with a man who isn’t serious about me. I’ve myself and a child to think about”.
Be careful, a former friend of mine has been in a casual relationship for FIFTEEN YEARS. She now has a daughter, who has a casual father. In that fifteen years she could have broken up and gotten over about half a dozen relationships and still met a keeper. You say you can’t deal with the trauma? I say you can because the alternative is looking way way worse from where I’m standing.
mixed signals will continue to drain you and confuse you. In my opinion, the mixed signals he is giving is not doing what is best for the baby, but is setting the baby up to be confused as well. Why does he see no chance of a family? sounds like he has commitment fears, and sometimes those fears are so great that there is nothing you can do about it. Once you start to get close, he will pull away. he will have to keep some distance as he is doing now. so you can keep on doing what you are doing with his mixed signals, but just be warned that if he can keep you confused and keep enough tasty crumbs thrown your way, you are likely to stay and never clearly know what you want nor get what you want. He is getting all the family perks without having to actually step up and be a family man, providing for you and caring for you when the not-so-fun things of life happen– you know, all the routine things we do when it isn’t the fun weekend. He has told you what it is and probably has told you why it has to be that way and why it wont be more. Dont let the sex and weekend get togethers fool you. So get real with yourself and focus on you. If you told him that you want more and would like to build something with him and that you were hurt when you had troubles and hurt when he left, and he says there is no chance and yet continues to “act” like it is more (sex and love talk and weekend/ family time is a signal of more in many people’s opinions), then it is kind of mean of him to continue on the way he is… no?
Hollywood,
I’m sorry to hear what you’ve been through. You say that you’re not sure whether you even want to be with him–that’s good, you should not want to be with someone who has told you there is no chance that you will be together in the future. What kind of person says that he’s never going to be with you but carries on acting like a couple and coming around for all the fringe benefits of a relationship without committing to one?
How is stringing you along like this something that he’s doing for the baby? I think you need to stop waiting to see what may change and listen to what he has said and make your own choice to walk away. Yes, you need to be in touch because of your child, but no more cuddling, whispering sweet nothings, no more sex or spending time together like a couple when you’re not together. It’s just going to mess with your head and leave you hurting all over again.
A – your observations are so apt. I hope you see this – When I was first wondering what was up with my last guy who bailed on me after his mom passed away, you gave some observations about the situation. He dumped me abruptly by phone late one night, then wanted to get back with me (which I agreed to, giving him the benefit of the doubt) only to dump me 2 weeks later in person amidst some bizarre criticisms including me being “actually too short” for him. Everything you conjectured about his behavior came to pass. He turned out to be a total future faker/disingenuous dick. It wasn’t about his grieving; it was about who he was as a person.
Broadsided,
I remember your story. Sorry that he turned out to be an ass, but at least he showed his true colours relatively quickly.
I imagine it would be difficult to gauge his behaviour in the midst of him suffering the loss of his mother…wondering whether he’s acting out of sorts due to the loss or if it’s just his character. (Not to mention that it’s always so much harder to see things clearly when you’re the one living the situation).
Thanks for your comment, I appreciate it. 🙂 I hope you’re doing well.
What about the ones who are “Upfront” with you by telling you that they will date other women besides you, but act with you as if they want more than a casual relationship by dragging you all over town with them all the time and then want you to only see them?
Inconsistency. Flush that shit down the toilet.
angela-
then they are double standard mofos who want their cake, to eat it too, but to starve you. probably it is only a matter of time before he’s dragging someone else all over town and telling you “but i told you the whole time i would date other women”, like its your fault, which it will be if you keep participating. please do not accept controlling behavior from territorial assholes. flush.
The only thing you should focus on is that he is dating other women. If you want a relationship, drop him!
This is all such good stuff.
My regret is that I wasn’t honest with myself at the start. I wanted more (not necessarily with the guy I was dating, just in general) and tried to make a square peg fit a round hole. He was upfront. I knew what he wanted to offer but his actions showed me a slice of what I really wanted. Hooked on the game, I persisted. I was never really happy but felt so close to winning the prize I needed to validate myself.
It ended when I got upset that he didn’t show me the kindness and closeness I needed at a particular time. Dumped by text nearly a year ago and I still feel the sting. I opted out of the casual scene. It’s not for me. I’m happily cohabiting with the most wonderful guy (and ‘fit’) now and the ex moved on quickly to something seemingly more serious…go figure.
The whole thing was doomed from the start and if I was as strong then as I am now I would have opted out after the first date and not let my ego and insecurities get the better of me.
I have to say this. Most guys wanting something casual DELIBERATELY mislead women into thinking otherwise to get sex because they KNOW they wouldn’t get this otherwise. Let’s not kid ourselves otherwise!!! The line they use goes something like, ‘I only want someting casual BUT if I find ‘the one’ I’d reconsider’… (or some other rubbish designed to lead the woman into thinking she has a chance for something more)
Those who are 100% honest about only wanting casuwl sex are EXCEEDINGLY RARE. Just saying…
TOTALLY agree.
And from experience as a woman who just wants casual relationships: those types ALSO act that way in casual relationships. They don’t discriminate on the mind efferry.
teachable, you are absolutely right, and the only thing to do is watch the behaviour/ words for inconsistency.” I want this BUT ( insert whatever conditions )”….is a signal to pay attention to the whole sentence, not just the part we want to hear. Followed by FLUSH.
Yep. Or despite their rather colorful dating history involving lots of women, they assure you that “You are the ONE.” I’ve learned now that if a man refers to having dated a lot of women (which this guy did and now is again), and settles on you – it may not be a compliment or something to hang your hat on. The guy probably has serious relationship A.D.D. or personal problems.
ps the title of this post should be ‘the importance of being upfront about only wanting casual sex etc’ rather than ‘a casual relationship’. Those wanting these arrangements DONT WANT a relationship so being fully honest let’s call a spade a spade…
Interesting point. Maybe one distinction is this – there was a time in my life when I didn’t want a serious relationship (had a young teenaged son at home I was single parenting, and he was my priority which worked out as he’s an awesome and secure adult now!). I accepted a casual relationship with a guy who actually liked me as a friend and I him – we were monogamous – had sex – but had no intention of it going anywhere due to lack of enough common interests and certain varying views. Yet we enjoyed fun and conversation on a periodic basis. Neither of us had time or desire to spend a huge amount of time in a relationship but would see each other once a week or so. This actually worked since we both liked and respected each other and were honest about the situation – no BS’ing, no meanness, it was what it was. Once my son grew to dating age himself and did not mind, I chose to put myself back on the market again and date with the intention of finding a real relationship. So the other guy and I “broke up” sexually but remain close friends, almost 10 years later. He STILL does not want a serious relationship with anyone. But he’s been a great consultant for me on male behavior, and called my last two situations accurately. That was one casual relationship that worked, if that fits the definition. Good friends with benefits?
Since him I had one longish-term emotionally unavailable guy and one future faker (asshole). Reading all of these posts and even older and wiser, I’ll try again.
Natalie, I just came back from my one week holiday and the first thing I did – checked your wonderful site and read your post, wow!!! I was really busy on my holidays and did not think much about AC, maybe couple of times and there where thoughts HOW CAN I FINISH with AC. Shall I call him or meet him or just text him and say that we are not right for each other and it is time to move on??? I know I will be devastated as it is so hard to let it go after four years, but we just cannot carry on:-( I cannot trust him to have a relationship with him, I still think he is not open about a lot of things, he is not honest person and I am very tired of his empty promises:-( Why I am so scared to lose him?
You are also 100% right, if only AC said to me in the beginning that he was with someone else, I would never ever meet him and have “relationship” with him. BUT he keeps insisting that I am only woman in his life, and he wants to be with me. BUT where is the proof??
Little Star
“if only AC said to me in the beginning that he was with someone else, I would never ever meet him and have “relationship” with him.”
So you didn’t know the deal, now you do. You can stop meeting him now. It’s still allowed.
I hear a lot of women saying this sort of thing. My sister, for example, says things like: ‘if I’d known he was going to treat me like this I wouldn’t have entertained him at all.’
I say, well why are you entertaining him now then? Have you lowered you standards, extended your deal breakers, demolished your boundaries? If you didn’t sign up for this shite in the beginning, why are you signing up for it now? Then comes all the “reasons”… meh.
Fearless, thank you for your comment. I still do not know if he is with someone! I just feel it, but do not have any proof. He is very secretive about everything and sometimes he saying things which are not add up. I caught him on so many liars…I want to drop him for good. Just wonder which way:-)
Wow, that reminds me of being in a casual relationship with a guy from work, hoping that somehow it would provide the back door into a relationship. And boy, did it blow up in my face spectacularly. That was two years ago, and I am NEVER going back to that kind of shady business. NML is right ladies, it is a ticking timebomb to catastrophe.
Hollywood- sounds like you are setting yourself up for a fail. Actions speak louder than words. He screwed you over before and he sounds like a complete jerk.
And furthermore, there are sometimes the AC’s who promise the earth then change their minds, now wanting a casual relationship. This is downgrading you to nothing more than sex on tap- and a sign to run for the hills! “Run Forrest, RUN!”
I know this situation too well! My player AC from another country was head over heels for me for about two weeks. He would literally drop his jaw when he saw me, told me he loved me the first day, tell me that he couldn’t believe how lucky he was to have me, kept insisting “You can’t actually like me???!! If you could choose, I am not who you would choose????!!,” etc. etc, and then just as quickly changed his mind.
Claiming that he didn’t want to fall in love with me, because I was from another country and it would have to end, he downgraded the relationship to us hooking up whenever he was in the mood – a situation he actually only collected on one time, even though I would duly go to the same bars as him every weekend, hoping that he might decide *that* night we would go home together. Most nights at the bar he would just actively refuse to talk to me all night and then come give me a big flirty hug and kiss at the end of the night and say “goodnight beautiful” and leave, with my head completely spinning.
Sigh. I wish I had accepted his ‘upfront’ (if admittedly belated!) answer after the second week. But I was young and naive, and I thought it was my responsibility to be a martyr for love. I thought the fact that we were from different countries was this enormous obstacle that I had to show him could be overcome, so I spent about a year and half enmeshing myself in his group of friends, showing him how easily we could make it work, etc. etc. Of course, over the course of that year and a half, I realized that the real reason it couldn’t have worked between us is because he is a completely selfish and cruel jerk with more mental issues than almost anyone I’ve ever met.
Casual relationship would have been too much of a formal label, too much of a commitment, for whatever pile of crap I was in. But when it was ‘on’, it was far from casual. This post is helping me to see how much deception there is on both sides. Somehow I thought I was different because we had history and were friends, and spent the most time together. ‘He must care about me by now. We’ve shared so much’. No. I was no different at all.
Really, what person in their right mind accepts an arrangement where they’re called out of the blue, *extravagantly* swept of their feet for a few days, he focuses 100% on them during this time, everyone/thing else can go to hell, then he takes them home and the phone calls and texts peter out politely until they don’t exist…until the next time. Complain and you get, ‘I was upfront’. Lather rinse repeat. Who does that REALLY work for? Who should be cool with that? You cannot have any harmony in this unless you’re totally passive, you show some balls and you’re expecting too much, needy, gaslighting happens. The only way to be strong is to get out. I was in my wrong mind for too long.
Please don’t do it, ladies and gents. Don’t make the mistake of thinking others have your code of decency.
I wonder how many casual relationships are on equal footing? I think ‘equal casual relationship’ might be a double oxymoron.
This post is helping me to see how much deception there is on both sides. Somehow I thought I was different because we had history and were friends, and spent the most time together. ‘He must care about me by now. We’ve shared so much’. No. I was no different at all.
This happened to me, and so I had to grieve *TWICE*
see my post below but it caught my eye when you wrote “code of decency” I struggled with that too. I never wanted to believe these hookups couldn’t be civilized and caring without living together, etc. I used to fly into a rage because the concept seemed so simple to me. show up, follow through, be consistant, and everyone is happy, yet it was like pulling teeth and I would end up embarrassing myself.
@TOA, most of my grief came before NC, during the rinse parts of the cycle. What saves me from missing him is how out of hand I let it get. What a headf*ck to be grieving nothing.
@Katy, believe it or not I went through this while living together, it didn’t make it any more civilised. I see in your other post:
“I made major assumptions that just because this wasn’t leading down the aisle, i would at minimum get the same treatment a friend would get.”
Especially when someone acts mature, caring, sensitive, respectful and the lot. It’s a tough call. They are upfront that it’s not a serious relationship. At the same time, my mind thinks that physical and emotional closeness over a long period of time, even if inconsistent, must have meaning. Of course any length of time reading this blog, we know better. But I think we should be forgiven for having thought it.
How many times have I seen men doing the same thing I do – tiptoeing and acting weird to avoid giving the wrong impression or message if they think someone might fancy them, fearful of being encouraging if they’re not sure they want it to go further. That was what happened and what people did in my normal world, and why I saw meaning when people let things get deep.
Yet now I know men and women who thrive on managing admirers and can muster some affection but don’t really have any respect for them and most importantly, never will. They’re bound to be more charming and captivating because they don’t care about the consequences. Now I have seen this behaviour, I see it’s perfectly rational and probably as old as the hills, but I find it hard to accept and callous and don’t want to be around people who behave like this.
I thought that these comments were brill, happyb – they made some things much clearer in my mind.
“They’re bound to be more charming and captivating because they don’t care about the consequences. Now I have seen this behaviour, I see it’s perfectly rational and probably as old as the hills, but I find it hard to accept and callous and don’t want to be around people who behave like this.”
Yeah – I guess you’ve always had people who cheated on their spouses and withheld from fully entering a relationship. It’s just easier to spread yourself thin – over lots of people – if you feel like it these days.
I don’t want to be around people like that anymore either – I’ve had a bellyful of them. Top of my list of ‘needs’ these days is the word ‘honourable’. I mean, crikey, when you think about how difficult life can get just on a workaday basis, why would you want to go through it with anyone who’s not?
Thanks Yoghurt, it is a huge help to write these things.
I can see how we fall into a trap. Vulnerable and feeling low, putting just about anyone on a pedestal. Honourable people shy away, seeing the hard work, while the disingenuous ones see an opportunity. They are shiny and glittery and bring instant results, know how to get what they want and will put that first. The honourable ones then get sent to the periphery because they don’t say what you want to hear or give that gratification. It leaves you in an empty place, even more prone to assclownery.
Honour, honesty, respect, decency used to be my norm, and now it is again. I won’t be in minority any more.
“It’s just easier to spread yourself thin – over lots of people – if you feel like it these days.”
My favourite excuse I’ve heard for this is, ‘I have so much love to give, I can’t limit myself to one person’. It’s not love though is it. Love is being there on that ‘workaday basis’.
I met a man once whom I really liked and I think he liked me too. In a proccess of getting to know each other we talked about what we want out of relationships in general and he honestly and simply said that all he wants is a casual relationship and that with what was going in his life and his issues – that is what he is capable of. No future faking, no ambiguity, no trying to get into my pants on false pretences. I, supposedly 🙂 Ms Unavailable, had no problem honestly voicing that although I like him – it is not for me- it would make me very unhappy. And we respected each others wants and opinions and remained on friendly terms but not together. Isn`t this a nice story? I had more care, respect and honesty from this man than the guys I endeed up in relationships with. They messed with my head and I was ill equipped to deal with it. I think it just shows you, you are either a person of integrity or you are not and dealing with ACs is a minefield.
I still get confused at this, because I had two situations where I was told upfront, “i don’t know what I can give at this age” “i like to be spontaneous”, “there are no exclusives”, (i could go on all day) and was asked to join a threesome. I entered these situations with full disclosure from the man.These are successful, wealthy, educated, all around nice guys. it still had problems, the biggest being that I wanted caring and respect and consistancy, but also, the canceling of plans, no returned calls, being ignored, knowing they were with others wondering if she was less of a pain to them than me. I told them both I was “ok” with this arrangement at the beginning because i didn’t know to ask if I should expect a routine to our get togethers, returned calls, etc. I was treated with respect when i had them in front of me, after that they were done until they wanted me again. soooo, I would decide to call them on it, and it sometimes went way overboard for those who have read my prior posts. Its my own fault for not opting out, I just wish I could say that disclosure helped me, because it didn’t at all. I made major assumptions that just because this wasn’t leading down the aisle, i would at minimum get the same treatment a friend would get. I am actually dating a man for “real” now and I have had sex with him. Having had both in my life, I can say that sex with someone who cares for me and calls me and lets me know he can’t wait to see me is way better than the pit in my stomach everytime would of my nights would end before.
Sushi… that is nice that you could opt out and he could respect that. I foolishly dated a guy who told me relationships were not for him. I told him i wanted a relationship, so we shouldn’t see each other. Suddenly relationships were very much for him! at least until he cold get me hooked. he admitted to the lies. Why is it so hard to be upfront and act accordingly and respect if the other person wants to opt out?
Kristen,
because they wouldn`t have anyone to have sex with and boost their egos ect. It was a lesson, onwards and upwards from now on.
Mixed messages are always a red flag. Him saying he didn’t want a relationship and then suddenly having a total about face? Suspicious.
Lesson learned, though. If a guy says anything like “I don’t want a relationship”, opt out and stay out. We can’t control if someone else is respectful of our opting out, but we can work on our own boundaries . Once you make your decision, it doesn’t matter if he doesn’t respect it. Be firm in what you want and know that his being persistent or trying to change your mind doesn’t mean that you have to be swayed by it.
I think there are different types: some really don’t know themselves at all and once you tell him you’re not interested, suddenly he’s *really* interested (except that it’s not genuine, because they only want you when they can’t have you). And others may just be outright liars who will say whatever it takes to try to get a woman into bed.
Sushi, that sounds so much like a story I posted above. My totally honest “friends with benefits” never messed with my head like the subsequent “romantic interests” did. How complex can it get?
Broadsided,
your friend with benefits is a man of integrity. Have to add, it was a lucky thing that neither of you developed romantic feelings for each other, as could have been messy. Knowing myself I would not cope well in the situation you were in and wouldn`t have gone for it but it clearly worked for you.
I think you are absolutely correct in your earlier post that ACs could not have a hope in hell of sex AND other extras like ego stroking ect that a woman with feelings for the man will provide, had they been honest about their intentions. It should only get complex when we don`t trust and love ourselves- they want their cake and so throw us some crumbs and BS and it`s up to us to know what we will accept or not and take action. In reality when I think back I ecountered such awful liars and manipulators at times! Self confidence is the key to everything, I`m convinced of that.
superb. Truely superb post.
‘It’s also not upfront, to be ‘upfront’ at the beginning and then keep your mouth zipped while the other party is clearly running with a different version of events but you’re not correcting it
You have that special talent of expressing the things I feel but can not explain.
This is absolutely perfect timing for me, I re-read all the other relavent posts on Casual Relationships yesterday and the 2 most valuable things I’ve realised, is
– Why should it be up to them to spell out the end? and
– If it makes you happy less often than it makes you feel bad then you will benefit from getting out it!
Happiness = (number of things happening that are good)*(how much value you give them) – (number of things happening that are bad)*(how much you let them bother you).
Anyway, I’ve been in a casual ‘relationship’ with a guy on and off for 2 years. I saw him this weekend which was a prime example of me getting excited over crumbs, wow he came over (-at 11pm and left at 8am). Bear in mind I’ve never actually seen him outside of the hours of 8pm and 10am. I wanted to talk about why it’s been dragging out for so long but didn’t have the balls to bring it up, and he won’t respond to any hints in messages about the situation. I’m trying to clear out ‘life clutter’ and I’ve come to realise he is a huge part of this. I joked with my friends that he’s the absolute PERFECT guy, apart from being aloof, unreliable, unresponsive, unaffectionate and non-commital. I’ve started calling him out on him cancelling with extremely late notice (like an apology the DAY AFTER) and putting in simple but non-nagging terms of how rude it is and how it makes me feel, and he says he’s super busy and begs for another chance. But a chance for what? All his actions scream ‘I’m not into this.’ I wish I hadn’t taken so long to take charge of the situation. I’m almost ashamed, I’m more intellegent than this! NC is the way forward.
Casual relationships are not always better than nothing.
Day *after* apologies! Ugh! The last person I dated, Mr Ice-Block (a frozen giant cube of ice would have more interest in me) gave me a day after apology. Terrible!
Jenny,
This is simply a booty call, and no more. This guy has shown you that he does no value or respect you.
Address what you are getting from such a demeaning situation?
Jenny, thank you for your sentence: “Why should it be up to them to spell out the end?” THIS IS your answer to your and mine situations…Lets do that, lets drop them, why should be on their terms??? Why they should be in control? MY AC stood me up few times and I forgave him, how stupid of me, why I did not confront him first time??? Natalie is right, I think it is all down to self esteem…
YES! Good one. Got a few things to say.
“I recently had a Mr Unavailable complain about this very type of situation blowing up in his face. It’s not that he wasn’t ‘upfront’…it’s just that he was only upfront on a need to know basis. If she’d known the full story (that he’d begun a relationship of sorts with someone else), I doubt she’d have given him the steam off her pee, never mind continued ‘dating’ him for a rather lengthy period of time.”
That’s EXACTLY what happened with me and The Snake at the end. As I’ve recounted myriad times, we never had sex through all of our years of “friendship” but messed around on & off. Toward the end (after he broke up with the 11 year relationship), The Snake met someone and said that it wasn’t anything serious, which was fine with me because we were being honest. Of course in hindsight, I was the only one being honest. Then I found out that The Snake was lying when a friend of mine saw The Snake outside holding hands with the woman whom “it’s not serious with”… and then found out that she met the family (so did I because we were genuine friends before we ever fooled around) and was introduced as The Snake’s girlfriend.
“As I said to the Mr Unavailable who knew he didn’t want a relationship a few weeks into us seeing each other, but decided to keep that card close to his chest for another 5 months, I would have appreciated the truth so that I could make an educated decision about what I did or didn’t want to be involved in. If I was in possession of all of the facts and persisted anyway, I couldn’t really argue with his actions.”
Like the woman in the above paragraphs, I wouldn’t have bothered if I’d known that. So in addition to losing what I THOUGHT was a friendship, I was unwittingly dragged into being the other woman. It was bad enough that I willingly did that from time to time when The Snake was in the 11 year relationship – I’m much older & wiser now and would NEVER do that shit again – but to be unwittingly made into that, I think THAT’S what infuriated me the most. And like the Mr. Unavailable in the above paragraphs, The Snake complained to a few people about things blowing up in its face.
According to a friend of mine (I mentioned this in a post from a few months back), The Snake is engaged/getting married to the woman yet is “still in love” with me. I just…
(Sorry… spoke more than usual with this one!)
According to a friend of mine (I mentioned this in a post from a few months back), The Snake is engaged/getting married to the woman yet is “still in love” with me. I just shook my head when she told me; I’m not falling for that nonsense ever again. That Snake will likely find another victim to sink its poisonous fangs into. If The Snake’s fiancee doesn’t know, best wishes to her because she’s in for a rude awakening. What a shame.
Sigh. I look back and see how fucking stupid I was to continue the charade. What a toxic situation & person/animal. But I can also look back over 4 years later (!!!) and see how much worse things could’ve been. I’m so glad that this was the final time to cut The Snake off for GOOD. I’m in a much better place, thank goodness. Onward, forward.
What can I say? Don’t they always say ‘Let’s be FRIENDS’ aka ‘Manage down your expectations to ZILCH.
So, help me out, is it ok to spend time with someone with whom you’ve discussed the “truth”; that is, whom you’ve told you can’t be exclusive with? I occasionally go out with someone I know has more feelings for me than I for him, and I have tried to make a go of it exclusively with him, but it just doesn’t float my boat, if you know what I mean. I’ve had the discussion about dating others with him, but he still pursues me. I don’t sleep with anyone, and honestly I am not at this point seeing anyone else.
I have been in the reverse situation, in a six year relationship with someone, and I don’t want to hurt this other fella but would just love to be friends. Maybe it’s just not nice of me to continue.
It’s hard to deal with when you really like someone and you could be great friends, but feel very little romantically.
Tess, what I’m wondering is, why are you ‘dating’ someone you do not feel for romantically? I don’t want to jump to conclusions, but it doesn’t appear that you get much out of it at all, like there isn’t much thrill to it, he doesn’t even turn you on. Maybe it’s just become a habit.
There was a period of time when I was in what I called a ‘meaningless relationship’, which I didn’t want to go anywhere. When I look back, I was numb and emotionally unavailable, and I quit it when I realised I’d rather have a cup of tea than a night with him.
I just can’t see the advantages in it from what you have written, and that’s before even answering your question about whether it’s fair on him.
Thinking over the past year and my bad experience with the at- work AC (found out about the other woman when he showed up with her at a conference), I am wondering if this crap casual, not being honest about where he’s at behavior, is how things are in dating. I am not giving folks that pull this crap an out, but it seems as though in this day of Facebook, texting, and other forms of shallow, meaningless communications, that many have no clue what a real relationship is. It used to be that when you did the work, put yourself out there, you’d find someone who was on the same page as you. Now its hidden agendas and three other woman on the side and crap excuses for all of it. True, there has always been a few that pulled this crap but they were quickly found out and as we all talked to one another, they found themselves more or less banished from dating. It seems like there is zero accountability these days.
Interesting post…I’m actually in a casual relationship and I’m ok with it. We’ve known each other for years and while initially we BOTH wanted to date, it jusdidn’t happen because of our schedules, crap going on in our lives and what not. He knows my situation, I know his and I’m ok with it. Funny though that if it turn out into something more, it would be nice and if it doesn’t then I at least knew what I had and take that memory with me. And to be honest…of all the guys I’ve dated, he makes me feel truly comfortable and I can be myself with and not even care. Casual relationships are not for everyone and not all the time. I do look forward to the day when I am free from all my baggage and do feel like i can fall in love again and get the same back, but for now casual is OK with me and dating is an option.
But ladies, please do know what you’re getting into before you do. Our guts usually tell us and we tend to ignore it, I knwo I did and that’s why I ended up with the asshole boyfriends who never saw us together past a certain amount of time. Kind of reminds me of the idiot ex dating the ex friend…he used to tell me that because we were so different it wouldn’t last, all the time saying it as a joke. I used to think that we would be together forever…well guess what? Didn’t happen and I knew in my gut those jokes had some truth to it but funny how he twisted it around and said all I wanted him for was sex. Let’s not get fooled byt these idiots that don’t even know where they stand or how.
BTW…I’m really not looking at a relationship right now…currently I am an EUW and trying to get past that. I’ve come to realize where some of my faults lie and with all that I’ve been through, a relationship is the last thing on my mind and this guy and I don’t even bother with sex. He respects me enough to not even ask and I do the same.
My most recent experience involved someone where I was the one who was clear about what I wanted and I took his acknowledgment of it as agreement. In my four months of online dating I made myself ask my dates what they were looking for and told them what I was looking for. For example, one man said he wanted a wife. Im not ready to think that way and passed on his offer of a date.
So when I went out with my new guy I flat out said I wasn’t looking for a friend with benefits or some casual thing. He asked if I had ever been in love and I said looking back no. He smiled sadly and said he hadn’t either. Our dates were great and when we finally took the big step for sex I flat out said, “If we do this, remember this means a lot to me.” (Maybe it was a dumb thing to say but given how I’ve been burned well it seemed like the right thing to do at the time.) He said, “Oh, yes, of course.” I took that to mean he felt the same way, no it meant that he knew it meant a lot to me.
So, after making our relationship a physical one all the sweet things fell by the wayside and it became a relationship on his terms, his timeline, and his interest level. Having a bad day at work? Text CTK for an ego stroke! She texts that she’s worried about something? Delete. She wants to have dinner? Ignore. He wasnts sex? Phone call time.
It took me a while to come out of my fog and realize that saying what I wanted wasn’t enough. Saying it was a big step for me but I had to listen to him and watch his actions. Yes, he was fine with me being the caring/giving one! So after a few weeks with him getting increasingly more busy (its not like he was a brain surgeon or handled the launch commands for NORAD!!) I ended it. Neat and clean and wiser.
And this is how it`s done!
No trying to convince him into a relationship you want, trying to be an exception to his rule, telling him all about himself and thinking it`s you and you are not good enough.
You look at it as a lesson that it is and go forward. Wow!
Wow and WOW! This was my EU “Casual Relationship” exactly. Natalie Lue I love you! I tried to get the full truth so I COULD make an informed decision. I wanted it to work so badly and those mixed messages had me in knots. Yes, I should have bounced based on the things I DID know, but he was one hell of a deceitful and manipulative so-and-so. I used to ask questions and he would give me the blank stare and I would say “safety in silence, eh?” Because he didn’t want to ACTUALLY lie……..LMAO!
I really am laughing about it all now. After more than a year of NC, I hear he’s still running the same game. While I’ve gone on to become a much stronger and wiser me, in a GREAT relationship. Thanks to everyone here at BR. (Yay!!!!)
So agree with….
Now, I find myself really listening more to people in general: listening to what they say; what they don’t say; what they do; what they don’t do; and etc.
And, I am really trying not to coat it with my fantasy paint, and twist it to meet my needs, and definitely trying to keep my ego out of it…and ….
I’m progressing.
I don’t think there is such a thing as a ‘casual relationship’; I agree–“call a spade a spade.” I really think this is just what my colorful family of origin called “f–king around.”
And, sure, most men or women aren’t going to say at ANY point: “Hey, do you want to just f–k around and see what happens? But then maybe they secretly, or carelessly do…I dunno, but I do know that I am not interested in f–king somebody around or being f–ed around by anyone else.
I think some people try to compartmentalize the physical/sexual aspects of their relationships, and to say the least–I bet AC’s love that idea…just thinking out loud….
Spinster, I was unwittingly placed in the OW role also (as in I didn’t know this was the case) & I hit the roof when I found out!! I have not spoken to my xAC since. He wanted to speak to me, 6 mths down the track, when he thought I’d cooled off but I just couldn’t. I’m STILL outraged at what that effing assh*le did to me. I put up with SO much sh*t from him it’s just not funny. I THOUGHT it was b.cuz he was struggling with other issues which he was SUPPOSED to be getting inpatient treatment for. When I learned the TRUTH I felk sick. Really really sick. He (of course) has sailed into the sunset with the OW (as she was to my mind) whilst I have been left with my life in tatters. It’s literally like a scale 10 hurricane has swept through & destroyed EVERYTHING. My finances, employment, studies & health are ALL almost totally wiped out. And for what? Some assh*le who was playing me from the get go? I swear that if I ever lay eyes on him the only thing he’ll be getting is sharp kick to the balls in the hope this will put him out of action permanently!!!!
teachable:
Just like The Snake, that loser doesn’t deserve your energy any more. Walking shit stain. Let that loser keep its skidmarks to itself. 😉
PS Funnily enough, when he last suggested coming from interstate to see me & I said not unless WE ARE IN A COMMITTED EXCLUSIVE RELATIONSHIP he suddenly decided not to come!!! Gee, I wonder why?? I seriously wouldn’t p*ss on the pr*ck if he was on fire!!!
Yoghurt, yr story of an unplanned pregnancy really touched my heart. Big hugs to you!! x
Aw thanks teachable – hugs back 🙂
It really hasn’t been heart-touching in real life, though – more farcical and embarrassingly silly. I’m finding now, though, that I’ve suddenly got to the point where whenever it comes to mind I go “Ugh, don’t want to think about all of that, it makes me feel bad”.
This is such a mahooosive change from the last couple of years, where I’ve been going “ooo, must think about this some more to work out a way to not feel bad” and it’s GREAT! I feel FREE! And I have Son, who is the most gorgeous child ever (I know all mothers say that, but he is) and worth all of it ten times over. So a happy ending, I hope 🙂
Excellent as usual. Thanks to therapy and this blog I have found out(much to my chagrin) I don’t have what it takes to have a casual relationship. Much as I have tried in the past after my divorce. I was actually angry with myself for not being “cool ” enough . I wanted to be perceived as “easy going, no drama, cool, with it, etc…” Not to mention , “just being nice”. But now I realize I have the freedom to just be me. No more pressure . And my way of thinking was bringing exactly what I wanted to avoid in the first place- the drama, the allowing guys to pee on my head and tell me its rain. I hope this new way of thinking will take and allow me tol bypass many an emotionally unavailable man, since I am not on their wavelength / radar screen any more. I still have problems with seeking and needing male attention and I am working on that one. However, what I’ve been doing before must end, I am sick of it. Thanks, Natalie , for another good one.
Head in the Clouds…loved it “…allowing guys to pee on my head and tell me its rain”. Good for you for recognizing casual relationships are not your cup of tea. Me neither. No more hokey pokey. Both feet are in or they are out.
I had to go cold turkey on the seeking and needing male attention, although I think the manager at my local hardware store is flirting with me. At least he listens attentively to what nut or bolt I need. It was the offer of a piggy back ride that clued me in that he may not just be interested in my latest DYI project. In any event, good luck to you. Sometimes it’s just piss.
OMG……this is exactly what happened to me. My xBF was such an AC. Why is 20/20 vision always in hindsight? Best thing that ever happened to me was the day I walked out of his house for good. Of course I didn’t know it at the time but I dodged a lethal bullet. Hope his house of cards comes tumbling down and buries his a$$.
Great post. I haven’t read all the comments to see if my observations have already been brought up. Those of us who read this blog know well enough that the AC/UAperson is not going to be totally upfront when offering a casual relationship. In my story, the MM kept saying “its only casual, its only an outlet for me, this is the open arrangement that I negotiated with my wife.” out of one side of his mouth, but the second he also started saying “I love you” and “I need you” I got really confused. Of course, those latter things were only said in the heat of passion. The upshot is that I think that its impossible to trust the person in the “drivers seat” to be 100% clear. Many times, they are confused, too. They aren’t as in control as they would like to think. It turns out (not surprisingly) that my MM lied about his marriage being open. It was ethically murky enough for me to be with him when that was the understood arrangement; had i know that we were truly going behind his wife’s back, I would have said no from the get-go. I ignored plenty of red flags, but he kept many of them well hidden.
I underscore that it is just as important, if not more important, that those of us who secretly want more be totally upfront about that. Its really hard to do; so hard to bear the thought of losing out on the crumbs (especially when you are with a MM; you KNOW that you simply cannot ask for more).
The battle for truth is not with the other person, but with yourself. Understandably, it can take a while for the limitations of the relationship to affect you.
Amanda,
Good for you for getting out of the situation with the MM. I’ve been out for a while too thanks to Natalie and the BR community. After I got done being pissed off at him, I realized the battle for truth was not with him. The battle for the truth was with me. Even though I knowingly got involved with a MM thinking I could handle it, at some point the tables turned and I wanted more. My problem (among many) was I wasn’t up front with myself. I clung to the fantasy thinking one day I’d be upgraded, which a Natalie so wonderfully stated, “backfired spectacularly” (goodness you have such a way with words). Even though I threw spectacular tantrums about what I wanted, I always went back to the table thinking this time I’d win big. Going on a BS diet and being upfront with myself has been a difficult but extremely worthwhile journey. Thanks for your comment. The battle for truth has been with me. This is a wonderful post Natalie…thank you. I’ll remember this: “If you’re thinking you probably shouldn’t mention something… it means that you probably should.” And if you mention it and don’t get the answer you are comfortable with, be up front with yourself and step.
I dated a guy who wasn’t upfront with his intentions at all. He couldn’t keep up the facade for too long, and the red flags started to reveal what was going on. He admitted he lied because he knew I would not see him if he was upfront with the fact that he never wants to get married or have kids and that he likes to have lots of girlfriends because he “gets bored.” He was so upset because he never felt “bored” with me, but he still fears marriage too much. So he said he thought if he dated me, maybe he would change and he didn’t want to lose me, blah blah blah. So he fed me a bunch of lies, leaving me feeling manipulated and used (not to mention my feelings being disregarded). I told him it would have been nice if he was upfront so I could make a decision about seeing him. But he is right… he HAD to deceive me because being upfront would have turned me off. I often wonder if he WAS upfront, would I have walked away? I like to think I would have instead of fooling myself. Not knowing what was going on and finding out later was awful enough. I can only imagine how bad it would get if I knew what was going on and pretended it wasn’t or played along. I now am upfront with guys and don’t bother to keep dating them if I am not really interested. I don’t want to lead anyone on the way I was. And I have learned to really look at the red flags and see if their actions match the words.
31 days NC today!
Every now and then i’ll remember how manipulative and passive aggressive he is…and then i remember how its not my problem anymore 🙂
Congrats, Confusedd!!! Keep being strong!!!
I know that it doesn’t make particularly interesting reading but casual means means precisiely that – CASUAL.
I heard from said man this evening, asking how my week was and for the first time ever I don’t feel the urge to jump to reply. I was glad that during this whole time I would make sure that we didn’t have sex everytime, so at least it doesn’t feel like I was used for that. (I’d recommend this approach in any casual arrangement – I always felt worse for doing it rather than better.)
Great post! Just what I needed to hear.
This is helpful after the event. My problem is before. I find it hard to ascertain intentions.
When a guy says he isnt after anything serious when he doesn’t know me from a brass razoo I tend to agree. I can’t or won’t commit to someone I don’t know. I believe people should date & discover.
But this is where I get tripped up. Nearly every guy I date either say they aren’t after something serious (which clams me up although logically I understand) or say they are after a serious relationship but then I feel obligated or almost guilty if what I discover isn’t compatiable with me.
I’m attracted to a guy I met recently who has done the whole ‘not after anything serious, been hurt before’ scenerio. He is dating other girls (& possibly sleeping with them) & I’m confused on how to handle the situation. I haven’t been intimate with him yet.
Normally I would give a wide berth & continue to search for the ‘one.’ But I’m tempted to try & date this guy & see what is beneath. Am I asking for trouble? Has he put the writing on the wall & am I too stubborn or silly to see it & hope for change? Or is being this upfront at the start a ‘normal’ or common prelude for guys nowadays?
I am not sure I completely understand your post, but I do have a few thoughts.
To begin, I *do* think it is potentially destructive to have the “what are you looking for?” type discussion too soon in the dating process. I made this mistake with my most recent AC. I saw red flags in the first few days, so I tried to break things off, and then he demanded to know why, and I told him I didn’t think he wanted anything serious, and then he flew into overdrive to persuade me he did, and so all of I sudden our relationship took on this really intense tone, even though we barely knew each other! And I felt even more guilty when later that week I tried to break things off with him again, because he felt like I had encouraged him to believe I did want a relationship with him.
I wouldn’t recommend asking these sorts of questions for the first couple of weeks. Just use this time to observe what you observe – is the person keeping in contact with you regularly? making an effort to see you at least once a week? treating you with courtesy? not making a habit of cancelling or pushing back plans? not calling you at the last minute expecting to hang out? not trying to push sex (if that’s important to you) or at least not trying to ONLY be with you for sex? not engaging in shady behavior?
To this list, I would also add: “not saying anything which suggests he is emotionally unavailable? slowly revealing to you that he is considering forming a relationship with you?”
By those last two things, I would recommend ending things with your new guy. And don’t even tell him why, to avoid the situation I had. Just say, you don’t see a future between you two.
Thanks Snowboard,
Your advice actually resonated with me.
Unfortunately I get a little caught up in my thoughts (& fears!) & forget to observe his actions.
You are completely correct. I will watch & see & enjoy his company. He does try to organise dates a least weekly, talks to me everyday & doesn’t push me or rush me to be intimate. He hasn’t yet showed signs of unavailabilty.
Wow! How doing this excerise exposes ones fears & lack of trust!
I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts 🙂
Juzz
I disagree. I would never date someone who I suspect is shagging other women. I would consider that to be a sign of unavailability.
Neither would I date someone who has already told me he is only looking for a casual relationship (not looking for anything serious) or giving me excuses for upcoming shady behaviour (been hurt before, blah, blah, blah, you need to be OVER IT before dating me!).
Do not hang around waiting for him to change his mind.
Lack of trust? I say it’s completely inappropriate to trust an excuse-spouting womanizer, no matter how much attention he gives you.
Hi Juzz,
I hope you didn’t misinterpret my advice. I’m actually with Grace on this one. It seems you are misreading his signs (and his glaring red flags). It is *not* the mark of a gentleman for him to want to be with you a lot while informing you that he doesn’t plan to treat you particularly well and in fact also suggesting he has other women! He should be trying to impress you by suggesting how wonderfully he plans to treat you. You deserve better!
Spot on Natalee! I have really enjoyed reading your postings for the past several months.
You are really teaching us a skill – a skill none of us acquired at a young age : how to read people and situations in such a way, as to preempt us from engaging in any relationships which are bad for us. Bravo to you for offering us your insights.
I was someone who thought a casual relationship was for me.
It was all set out the terms and conditions like a contract but the reality of it was far different to the terms and conditions set out.
The most frustrating thing about the arrangement was having no voice because I didn’t have the status of girlfriend I couldn’t speak up about various issues. One being ignoring me and treating like nobody when in the company of his so called important friends also never going to family events or harem lunches. (I didn’t know they were harem lunches at the time)
“The trouble is that the type of person who is going to be particularly interested in having a casual relationship is going to 1) be wary of experiencing conflict and 2) even more concerned about endangering the sex and ego stroking supply. There’s also a possible #3 – being afraid of looking like an assclown.”
The above paragraph is so true I think on both our counts for one and two though I think I did the better job of supplying the ego stroke.
I think he was afraid to look like an assclown though at the end of the day he did a spectacular job of it.
Firstly by breaking the terms and conditions set out then going on the defensive that no such terms existed and didn’t he tell me upfront that it was a casual arrangement all along.
I went back with a completely different set of terms and conditions and again he came out an assclowwn , but having said this I still own my part in it all. I chose to participate again after he had showed me his true colours.
It can be mind boggling when double speak is added for example he would remind me it was a casual arrangement but sometime would go on how we are more than friends with benefits. Always go with actions.
“The key with these so-called ‘casual relationships’, which lets be real, are never really that casual as most of us cannot handle being treated or regarded casually, is that upfront, as in being totally honest about what the state of play is, is the only way to go.”
Even with what I thought was total upfront honesty came at a price and it is true casual relationships often mean you wearing the; I’m not good enough for anything more or better perfume.
Harem lunches???!!??
Hi Lilia
Harem lunches were the ex eum meeting for lunch with a bunch ladies who fed his ego.
They were made up of ladies who could do things for him invite to openings of events or give him publicity in the newspaper etc. or ladies he wanted to date but they didn’t want to date him but he would try hard with these lunches invites to events etc.
He would always tell me that lunches were coming up and always end the converstation with I should invite you to one shouldn’t I?
I would always hear about them after the event with the comment I should come along one day. There were other little comments though that always implied I would never attend a lunch.
I think now it wasn’t that I wasn’t good enough, fun enough, don’t like to get drunk or not social enough.
It would be a scene where he would be exposed in how much effort goes into maintaining the harem including one or two exes and how much might be revealed about him.
I don’t know how much went on behind my back either I don’t know if he stuck to our terms and conditions either so maybe they could also expose him in this way.
It doesn’t matter anymore I’m just grateful I no longer obsess over things.
Amidst all the criticism about conservatism in religion, maybe Orthodox Judaism has it right. Maybe, all this ass clownery can be avoided by women and men getting to know each other without sex. It’s a sacrifice, but it makes sense that you’ll have a better chance of really knowing if someone’s right for you if you just talk to them all of the time. And in reference to what you say in your posts Natalee – a lot of guys who push for sex early in the relationship are not concerned with the long term ramifications of meeting their immediate physical needs. Also, I don’t believe in casual relationships.
Yo,
I am starting feel the same. Sex ALWAYS messes me up. As soon as I get it, I let my ‘vag ja ja’ as NML puts it, take over. I’ve actually tried not to – but it seems to get the better of me every time. I tried celibacy in January and only lasted until April. I wanted to go at least a year with no sex, I didn’t mind dating with no sex and if the guy is interested he’ll wait. I couldn’t handle more than 4 months! urgh.
Its really starting to bug me.
Do you know what makes me laugh with these types of people is that if you have a good enough memory and pay attention to all that they say then you’ll be able to pick up on their b/s. Feed them back their b/s and watch them squirm. It’s sort of like ‘playing the player’ but you’re not playing them rather picking up and showing them their own dishonesty. They dislike it a lot I found but that isn’t my problem.
The last AC spoke about really liking me, that I’m this and that and all the future faking and ego stroking you can think of. Then slowly but surely all the talks about not having a woman, not doing relationships but I love you though and all the inconsistent nonsense that went with it. So when it got to the time where I was ready to really brake it off I gave them back their own b/s in small doses. They wanted respect but didn’t respect me so instead of earning it they demanded it and really never got it. They kept arguing about the person I am and then I had to remind them to stop arguing with me because they don’t do relationships so really they have no argument. They kept saying they wanted to ‘make love to me’ we never did it was just sex and I reminded them of that. Their friends never really did have anything good to say and that says a lot really.
When they know that you know their game they won’t mess with you no more because you’re hard work and no fool. As with that latest case they wanted me to drop my guard and bust up my boundaries in order to make themselves feel comfortable. No way! I have to protect myself, keep my standards and my boundaries. If you allow them to, they’ll keep underestimating you until you show them init. Then you slowly and surely take back your power and walk away with your head held high. I use to think I was the dumb one until I realised they’re the dumb one.
Sorry, I had to vent!!
you are so right! i played it back to him when i finally figured this whole mind-f-erry out(well, not completely – because it can’t be figured out…not logical) and guess what i got. left at a restaurant mid dinner holding the very expensive tab. they can’t stand it when you have caught on. it’s really creepy watching them squirm – almost like the whole act was pre-meditated and they have been outed.
I’d rather wake up next to a severed horse’s head.
I have no legitimate beef with my EUM for not being upfront. I know that many of your readers do, though. My thought for this discussion is that upfront or not on the part of the driver, those of us taken for a ride must wise up. Not to assign blame, but to have knowledge and awareness of how the real world is. What our parents and society didn’t teach us. You’ve stepped into an important teaching role, Natalie.
Meanwhile, I’m suffering less because of all your smart posts, but I still hurt myself by wanting some final vindication from the mess I dove into. I feel moderately more free, THANK YOU, but … well, not there yet. Soon I hope, I keep returning to your texts.
My almost 6 month foray into casual relationship land, has left me feeling so….worthless.
I went back and forth with him for months, I would tell him I can’t do this anymore, its hurting me, he would say “ok”. A week would go by, he would text me, “l miss us”. Truth was there was never an “US” only him getting what he wanted “sex”.
I got a “come over” text. Again, I told him l can’t, I actually care about him, and this isn’t working for me. He again said ok. After almost 6 months all I get is an “ok”?! I told him to move onto to his next “vag”. Thinking I was finally done with him, but NO!
He adds me on FB, fine. Then messages me, hello, oh can I adopt his cat since he is moving back to NY? He always wants something!
He asked to come to my apt and stay for a week to have “love fun and sex” He had NEVER once came to my place in the 6 months we hung out.
I relented. Said ok. Thankfully I dont have internet at my place and he needed it for school, so he couldn’t stay.BUT he did ask me to pick him up from his parents, sleep with him and take him home….WOW!
I told him I was good, and I wasn’t going to be his whore. He then went on to say I was ” crazy” since I was so back and forth, maybe I was, but my wanting to see him wasn’t based on sleeping with him.
This is the second person I’ve been sexual with, the first was my hubby who passed away a year and a half ago, at a very young age….this TURD knows all this yet still messes with me, tries his best to keep using me, knowing I want more from him, and he is moving back to NY….sigh, it just feels good to write it all out.
I take responsiblity for my part in this situation, but he would tell me he loved me, I didn’t believe it, but wondered at him saying it.
I sometimes wonder if these people are mentally aware of what they are doing, and if so, how they can possibly think this kind of behaviour is ok. But then again, if we put up with it and let it happen then I can see why they think ‘If she’s not complaining it must be fine’.
It’s hard when you feel like you’re at fault because you let them do it. And sometimes reading Natalie’s blog posts makes me realise that I’ve been an idiot sometimes. But on the other hand, I’m glad to see I’m not the only one.
Funny… I found an old journal of mine from college. There was a guy who liked me and took me to this huge fraternity date/ house party, and I was an assclown and started flirting with another guy when we got separated at one point. I started dancing with the other guy (who didn’t have a date with him). My date found me and pulled me outside to ask me what I was doing. He was upset because he took me there as his date, but I was not acting like a date. I told him that I liked him but I had a “sort of” boyfriend and basically tried to make it a casual thing. He wasn’t happy with that and told me I can’t do that to him/ with him, and that I could have told him I was “seeing” someone before he asked me to the party, etc. I was finally being upfront then and there after the date and after he confronted me, and he opted out. Me being wishy-washy and not knowing what I want and having faulty beliefs and wanting to be casual and “have fun” led me down a path of dating assclowns and having bad “casual” relationships.
I looked that guy up on facebook (but just looking at his page, not friend requesting)… he got married right after college and is successful and has traveled all over with his family. Good thing he didn’t mess around with a causal thing with me, right? I wanted casual and got it and now have to learn how to get something serious and real. He opted out of casual and got a really good thing. Know what you want, have your boundaries and dealbreakers, believe in yourself and in love and what you want, respect yourself and don’t fall for the “casual” lure unless you yourself do not want to get or give anything serious and are aware that it’s a relationship that could come or go with no consistency, commitment or even true compatibility. People aren’t always upfront about what they are really intending. but when they are, stay true to what you want and what will really work for you.
Thanks for sharing. I like how he put himself on the line without embarrassment. Somehow, we have got it twisted and believe that being able to “handle” casual relationships makes us “cool” or “mature” or “adults”.
I think not.
Thanks Kristen. That was a really great comment.
I definitely messed up big time with my EUM regarding this whole casual/non-casual thing. In fact I didn’t know or care at the time whether it would be casual or not, or whether he was relationship material or not. I only knew that after 6 long years after my divorce with NO involvement with men of any kind (absolutely nothing – no flirting, no dates, no interest), a miracle happened and I was actually FEELING SOMETHING AGAIN FOR SOMEBODY! I had come back to life and God, it felt great. In fact it felt like a gift from God. In fact, I was SURE God wanted this to happen for me. My first big delusion…
This guy was someone I worked with and at first I had a mild interest, then a crush, then a full-blown case of desire so strong it was like a drug. I just inhaled it day and night, I didn’t need to eat or sleep, I was just full-blown crazy. I had no idea if this guy even knew I was alive, and had no idea if this burning longing for him would ever culminate in anything. I didn’t really want a relationship. I didn’t think that far ahead. I just wanted him, physically. I was starving for affection and didn’t care about anything beyond that. I just wanted one night with a good man, just some hugs and kisses again. I just wanted this experience as an assurance from the universe that I wasn’t going to be alone forever, feeling more dead than alive. I didn’t even think ahead as to whether or not there would be a “relationship.” This was like a fantasy that I think a lot of women have, that they would love to sleep with George Clooney for just one night and then be perfectly happy the next morning to send him on his merry way. That was my delusional thinking at the time. I even cringe when I look back at my super-overheated journal entries during that time when I wrote “I don’t even care if he’s an asshole, or a giant heartache waiting to happen – I just want him in my bed.” Yikes. If ever there was a self-fulfilling prophecy, this was it. Then the next miracle happened, and we had this magical night together. And then a few more nights. I was out of my mind with pure joy. And then we talked and started to make some emotional connections. It started to appear like there might be a budding relationship starting after all. Big mistake. That’s where it crossed the line from blissful, uncomplicated casual to one big effing mess…
Sadder but wiser,
I can totatly relate to so much of what you have written. No, its not delusional to want to feel again–its human. And after being alone for so long (I too felt more dead than alive) its wonderful to feel something and to want something. I think we “hedge our bets” mentally so to speak saying we will take something casual as a way to protect our hearts which have so badly bruised. That after having nothing we are grateful for anything. Of course this leaves us open to the ACs of this universe.
My EUM told ME that he thought God had put me in his life. It felt wonderful to be with someone, to feel things…..only it turns out that he was setting all the terms and clearly wasnt over his divorce.
We broke up a little over a month ago. I think back and its not him that I miss. I miss the hugs and kisses and the sex (been divorced 5 years but the last 10 of my marriage were sexless). I miss someone texing me “Good morning” and asking about my day (BTW all these things fell by the wayside, except the sex that is)….I miss the connection with another person. But know now it has to be the right person who is sincerely interested in deepening that connection over time.
Keep the faith Sadder but Wiser…its hard but you will find your happiness!
…Well, to make a long story short, it crashed and burned rather quickly. He was and is a typical EUM and I was one of several women he was “sampling” while he was trying to figure himself out after his divorce. Had I been smart, I would have thanked him for this incredible and amazing sexual experience, kissed him goodbye and thanked God for this wonderful gift in my life. Instead I tried to make it into a “relationship” that had no chance in hell of succeeding, and only ended up feeling saddened, disappointed and humiliated.
Not sure where this ramble is going… perhaps only to say that if you are going to go casual you have to have the ability to be very, very clear in your own mind what it is and what it isn’t…
Comforting pat on the arm to you, Sadder. I got caught out by one of those guys coming out of a marriage “trying to figure it all out”. Lesson learned. I thought I’d be the exception to the rule (Rule Number One: Don’t date dudes who haven’t processed the end of their marriage). I was kidding myself. And what I have to show for it is, yes, sadness and disappointment, but also lesson learned.
I hope you can find a way to unburden yourself of the humiliation. Perhaps if you frame it as, you were being human, and seeking something very human and wonderful — to love, and be loved — but got led astray for a bit. There’s no shame in wanting love, and there’s no shame in making missteps…sometimes we have to experience what we *don’t* want in order to really understand what we *do* want. Chin up.
Kate what uv said to Lawrence is SPOT ON. I’ve noticed tht the odd poster here appears to try to excuse or justify AC behaviour. Water off a ducks back etc…
If I want casual, I buy a pair of jeans. Costs less, more comfy, and when you get the right pair, does wonders for the self esteem! 🙂
Sushi.
Thankyou for yr input. You are 100% correct. The key mistake I made w my xAC is that I didn’t flush quickly enough when the actions didn’t match his words. Of course this was because knowing him so well I couldn’t understand why. Once I learned the truth it was a whole different ballgame. I may have slipped in breaking my committment to NC by sending emails a couple of times but I haven’t actually spoken to him since. Neither will I (& the same goes for no more emails). This situation was a little different for me in that I KNEW he loved me way bk when the first time around 20 yrs ago & I’ve flushed guys for FAR less without needing to know why their actions didn’t match their words in the intervening years. The lesson for me is to apply that rule strictly regardless of who the person is (as well as never date an x again – an x is an x for a reason)!
Spinster.
You are SOO right. He’s not even the sh*t stain anymore as he doesn’t deserve such kindly status! Rather, he’s just the foul stench of odour the stain leaves in its (*poof – GONE FOREVER*) wake!!
Yohurt.
I’m soo happy for you that you’re coming out the other side. Seeing the joy in yr beautiful Son is such a precious gift. And don’t feel embarressed about having a child out of a casual r.ship. I had my Son as a young teenage Mother to a peadophile who violently raped me multiple times in a domestic violence situation, when I was an underage teenage girl. My son is now an adult & I don’t for a moment regret having him. I regret only not choosing a better father for him (a fact which screwed me up so much, that despite WANTING more children, I’ve never had them & am now near approaching menopause. On a brighter note, 28 years after the fact I’ve FINALLY found the courage to now be taking the perpetrator to court! Yay me!!!!)
Ladies, I do have to say, we ALL deserve GOOD DECENT partners. I hope when I’m done putting my life back together here that I eventually FIND one because deep in my heart I’m ready to marry & settle down. Oh please universe when the time is right let a lovely man come along to restore my faith in humankind!!
So if casual relationships result in no real relationship developing then pls explain this one because I really dont understand. I started dating who I thought was a single, interesting, funny, smart man. Previously married at 25 which lasted 6 months. Brother died, apparently wife showed no sympathy so he left. No serious relationship in 5 years. Admitted casual relationship with a girl in the office. When I met him he said it was over. Then I find out he is still seeing her off and on, like me I suppose. This goes on for 18 months – I am the first to admit I should have walked immediately. He disappears, she moves in. I find out through a new mutual friend they are now serious although she started off saying there are just casual, only sleeping with him for a promotion and treats him like a banshee pseudo wife, mainly talks about how he pays for everything. Can someone please explain how her casual relationhip turned into something real based on that. how is she the exception to the rule? She even ran off to europe with another man on a holiday he was meant to go on, so how does it go from that to him asking her to move in (although we hooked up after she did) and him disappearing on me) and going to her sisters wedding etc. I dont get it. they both openly say they were casual. And now im left alone and they are together.
balthazer
Is this your definition of a real relationship? He pays for everything, she cheats on him, he cheats on her. How do you see that as “together”?
However, if that is what you want, then I think there are men who will play along.
If you want a mutually fulfilling, respectful relationship, move along.
Just because you liked him, it doesn’t mean that everything he does is “real” or that whoever gets him has won a prize.Interesting, funny, smart?FLAG FLAG FLAG. None of those things point to a decent human being. And yeah, I’m interesting funny and smart too! Does that mean I can treat people like shite and they’ll think I’m fantastic? I’ve been doing it wrong!!!
Maybe he is with her because she is a challenge to him? She sounds just as EU as he does… perfect match.
Sorry you are hurting. Sometimes (no MOST times!) these AC’s just aren’t worth trying to figure out.
I would bet they do not have something “real” anyway… let him get his a$$ burned by her.
umm…Balthazar… it doesn’t sound to me like they are really all that committed. perhaps their dysfunctions match up better and they have a weird control thing going on that makes it look like they are now no longer just casual. If she is more casual than he is, maybe he chases her harder and seems more committed. but if she becomes more available and committed to him, he will become more casual and pull away until she becomes more casual and pulls away. Sometimes it’s the commitmentphobic back-and-forth dance that goes on forever and keeps people stuck, thus seeming like they are together when they are really in a mess. They are both still running around on each other as you described, so that is not “real.” Moving in together doesn’t make a casual relationship more real. It just means you are the same casual people under the one roof– maybe pretending, but nothing has really changed into “real.” There are many reasons why people move in together. doesn’t sound like this woman waved the magic wand and made him commit to her while she commits to him. Sounds like they are both players and going to keep on messing around so long as they can.
And can I please just add I am desperate for advice, I am barely holding on.
Balthazar:
They’re together and they’re now stuck with a shitty relationship that isn’t ever going to be very satisfying for either of them.
It isn’t a reflection on you, it sounds as though she was just happier to play his games than you were. Well whoopdidoo for her, I’m sure that’ll work out well for them. Not that you’ll notice when it doesn’t, I hope.
Don’t waste time envying them – he was cheating on her before, he’ll probably do it again, from the sounds of it she’s cheating on him… oh what FUN that relationship must be! Think of how much they’ll achieve together, constantly scoring points off each other and each trying to be the boss of the other!
Ugh no. You’re lucky. You’re free to go off and find a genuine nice relationship with a genuine nice man which makes your life genuinely nicer. I wouldn’t pay them anymore attention, tbh, you’ve your own life to be getting on with.
Balthazar,
From out here in cyberland, it doesn’t sound as though he is such a prize. He lied to you, although you may not have had “relationship rights” as Natalie says above if your thing with him was casual too. But he lied. That’s a deal breaker. Additionally, just because they are living together doesn’t mean that they have a healthy, mutually co-piloted relationship based on love, trust, honest, and respect. In fact, it sounds as though they are both EU/AC’s.
I know it doesn’t seem like it right now because you are hurting, but you are fortunate to have dodged this bullet.. I’d suggest making the commitment to NC and focus on why you spent 18 months in this situation. Once I got kinda through the pain of being an OW for two years, I had to focus on why I got involved and stayed involved in a dishonest, humiliating, and disrespectful situation. It’s been a long and painful journey but worth it. Try to turn the focus back to you. Hopefully when the thing with her goes tits up, you’ll be so far down the NC path, you’ll see that a healthy relationship with this guy wasn’t on offer and you won’t go back.
Also, Natalie has a good article on “Why Her and Not Me”. Good luck to you.
My advice to you would be to stop focusing on him and them. Focus on you. You said you are the first to admit you should have walked away when you found out he was carrying on with someone else. There is lesson number one. There are lessons to be learned. Take a little time to look at what drew you in and why you stayed. Thinking about what is going on with him now is useless and will only drive you crazy. Cuz what does it have to do with you, really? What he does now with someone else doesn’t mean you are good or bad or were good or bad. It means that he is still doing his unhealthy, disfunctional thing with someone else. I know you want to feel validated, you want answers, etc. But with assclowns, you don’t get that validation and answers will always be confusing. You have to give yourself your own validation by healing yourself, forgiving yourself, and furthering your own advancement. You won’t learn to move on and how to create better relationships if you focus on the dynamics of his new relationships (something that is unknown to you and out of your control).
Time to take a look at your patterns, your fears, your beliefs. Where do you have faulty beliefs… what ARE your beliefs? What can you do to build up your self-esteem and feel happy? What is important to you in life? It would be better to meet a man who is already capable of developing relationships rather than hoping you can change some assclown into a relationship guy. But to meet that kind of man and recognize him, you need to be a woman who is already capable of developing relationships. Do you jump into bed too quickly without really knowing the guy? You can learn to guide the pace and slow it down so you get sexual after you have a bettter idea of intentions. Do you fall into fantasies? You can learn to keep your head in reality and look beyond the fantasy that a person provokes in you. Take time off from dating, read a lot of self-help type book and this site, maybe speak to a therapist for a while… focus on YOU. Just let go of obsessing about him. change your thoughts to something better when he pops into your mind. read a book, watch a movie, go exercise. You know he wasn’t right for you, so it was what it was. time to evaluate what IS right for you and what you really want.
kristen, I know your comment was directed at another poster’s situation but I think it’s excellent and great advice on all counts. And, what I needed to read today, too. Thanks!
Hey Balthazar, (Charmed reference?)
Im sorry this is confusing you. They ‘might’ have discovered they really ‘love’ each other and moved in together, it sounds to me (correct me if you think I’m wrong). That she puts up with his shady behaviour, that their relationship isn’t very healthy and that you probably showed signs of being less submissive than her.
Tell me, are you are still pinning for him? would you take him back?
Balthazar, would it help you to remember that this man who chose the other woman is also a man who chose to walk out on his marriage after only six months? He and his live-in both sound like complete emotional flakes, given what you and your new mutual friend have to say. They deserve each other, and I doubt their relationship will last long anyway. Allow yourself to mourn the loss, of course, but keep reminding yourself that he left his wife and he disappeared on you – this is true AC behavior and does not bode well for any relationship with him, ever.
I suspect that when this new relationship blows up – and it will – you may have to deal with him coming back and trying to hit reset with you. Get strong and move forward so you can tell him to get lost if he does. You’re worth a hell of a lot better than what he has to offer.
I think this time I have to disagree. We all know what casual means. It means “I don’t want any responsibility or expectations”.
If you agree to that with someone you can’t get angry they didn’t let you know what else was going on in their lives – they told you, by saying casual, they weren’t interested in giving you that information or taking you into consideration.
And you agreed to that when you entered into the arrangement. Becasue that’s all it is – an arrangement.
heather
I think casual is a misnomer – it sounds so lighthearted and fun. I used to be naive enough to think “casual” meant that you had a laugh and didn’t talk about marriage all the time. I didn’t realise until BR how little it actually means.
And I think “arrangement” is overstating it. It’s never put down in writing is it?
I like one of the previous comments – call it “f*cking about” or how about “screwing around”? See how that goes.
“I’m not interested in a relationship, I’m just screwing around”.
“I’m only interested in “f*cking about”.
If you can both then genuinely say “THAT’S GREAT” then go for it.
Grace, this was perfect! What’s astonishing is our ability to listen to crap like this and actually hear something else. You’d think that when somebody says “I’m just screwing around” a big neon sign would appear over their heads with one word on it: RUN! But no, we can actually hear this and think, oooh, he’s just so fun and playful. My ex said “I really like messin’ around with you” and I just completely missed this BIG RED FLAG!! Yep, that’s all we were doing, just messin’ around. Can’t say he wasn’t honest about it. This came fairly soon after telling me I had the “key to his soul” and other “deep” BS like this. So the messin’ around comment just seemed light and playful. I just missed its significance. ugh!!
It’s a fuckship, or a shagship, if you don’t want to drop the F-bomb all the time. Not a relationship.
Silverbee – that one made me nearly fall out of my chair laughing. Isn’t that the truth? Some are candy coated with BS yet that’s what they are. Wonder what these guys would say if they were described as such, “Oh, so you want to be in a f***ship?”
AS usual, brilliant comment from Grace, God, I wish it all stayed in my head:-)
I was accepting a casual relationship because I thought he would “see the light” about me! I compromised my integrity for 3 years waiting for him to recognize how wonderful I am… duh.
Months ago, my EUM told me (after the fact) that a “girl” that was just a “friend” from out of town had stayed the weekend with him…Didn’t even tell me before, not that I was accustomed to seeing him weekends anyway (he trained me very well to accept that he would probably be busy with his guy friends on the weekends, I should only expect some last minute invite on a random Tuesday night- haha! not in so many words, but I was trained or brainwashed this way…truly) I should be excited and honored to get the last minute “Hey, sitting over here having a drink, want to join me?” And, hate to admit it, I would drop whatever I was doing to go flying over there since this may be my only chance to see him this week- better be cool with his Assclownery- or else he’ll think you are a drag… got to be the easy going, fun to be around chick he wants to keep seeing, don’t ya know… get hip, this is casual, but he will eventually “get” that I am so great. pathetic.
So I’m supposed to be so fine with girl “friends” spending the weekend with him, while I NEVER have spent a weekend with him… So weird… and I now want to barf. He claims he has a very clear line he doesn’t cross with girl “friends”… So, then I think, okay- I guess they are really great old friends from school. I can accept that. But why not invite me to join them at some point? UGH!!! I’m getting madder as I write this. I’m great at giving men the benefit of the doubt. No More!
The more I read here, the more stupid AC incidents I am recalling and seeing for what they were. At the time a lot of things happen, I don’t necessarily recognize it as assclownery- somehow I felt like I was being prudish, unreasonable, so unhip should I question his behavior. So I didn’t. I relished the crumbs as I waited for his epiphany. ugh
And I’m in Day 4 of NC… Flush!
Lilla, I LOVE that story! I know for a fact that the woman xAC is now shacked up with got nothing more than. ‘booby prize’. She’s not demanding & ignored indications he’d been cheating on her all over town from day one of their decade together! They too have a Son together. That would be the child I’d hoped to have with him eventually one day (he was childless when we were first a couple before he ever met her). All she has now is what she always had: a man with multiple addiction issues, (thanks to me) now formally diagnosed bi-polar disorder, & who will keep on cheating till the day he dies! I on the other hand am free to put myself back together so as to be spiritually, physically & emotionally fit for a healthy relationship when the right person happens along! I’d rather be single anyday than be somebody’s doormat! Ugh!
ps obviously I did not know abt the xAC’s many issues when I first hoped to one day eventually have his child 20 yrs ago. What a lucky thing that I managed to dodge that bullet! I had one child in my life to a horrible person already. I don’t intend to repeat the same mistake twice (& haven’t!)
Pink panther. Your short post had me cracking up! LOL
Balthazar
Firstly I can understand that you feel your situation is the exception to the rule of this post, as on the SURFACE, it appears that way to you NOW. Give it time. I suspect all will not be happiness in paradise in the long term as evidenced by their track record with each other already. I’d go so far as to suggest that he will end up cheating on her (& you be the first he tries this with so you need to protect yourself) & she may end up cheating on him also (if either hasn’t done so already). None of that (except protecting yrself from becoming the OW is any of yr business now however.
Here’s what is your business. He has chosen to be with her. Presuming you would now never want him back as you don’t want to feel that you were his ‘second option’ instead of his first, you need to just do NC & flush him (& HER) right out of yr mind. This situation is a triangle & will only bring you more pain if you choose to re-engage with it in any shape or form. Focus on the FACTS about HIM not HER. He deliberately misled you in the first instance. That, right there, is grounds for a person w healthy self esteem saying ADIOS = FLUSH!
Thus, you need to reframe the situation of YOU rejecting HIM rather than the other way around (even if that is how event FEEL like they played out). Take your power back! You are not some whimpy person waiting for a dishonest man to change his mind & sweep you off your feet! YOU need to sweep him out of yr heart instead!
As Spinster says, he’s a sh*t stain. Leave him under the sole of your stilletto’s where the cretin belongs!
Hope that helps & hang in there. T 🙂
Jenny.
YES AC’s are absolutely aware of what they are doing. They just don’t care about the devestation their behaviour causes other people because they have an overblown sense of entitlement, often accompanied by Narcissistic Personality Disorder (in many cases also accompanied by other ugly fugly mental health diagnoses such as sociopathy, psychopathy etc). This willful deception of others is a well oiled game to them which they hone with lifelong practice. Such manipulation combined with an absence of empathy is a major part of what defines who they are. Woe betide those ignore the signs.
Yes, I agree that assclowns know what they are doing… but I can add this… I acted like an assclown to guys when I was young in college. I was young and just starting out in the dating scene and had this “sort of” boyfriend (a best friend that I hooked up with and he was telling me that he loved me but wanted to date around and we could see other people if someone better came along and then meet up again at like age 28 to get married… lol– I thought that was a great idea, can you believe it?) I had crushes around campus (was part of the greek system, so lots of parties and such going on). I had lots of guys interested in me which was fun, but I was shy and in “casual” mode and didn’t know how to communicate. I left a post earlier about a guy who called me out and told me I couldn’t be an assclown with him, and he had nothing to do with me after I told him I’d like to be casual. At the time, I just didn’t know how to communicate. If a guy asked me out, I didn’t know how to politely explain what I was after or say, “no, thank you.” I didn’t know what I wanted and was acting on impulse a lot. The important thing is… I LEARNED. It took a guy scolding me how I wasn’t being nice and opting out from my casual ways. It took friends asking me what I was doing to nice guys and telling me it wasn’t good to do. From there I became aware of what I was doing, and I stopped doing it. I look back and am ashamed that I was such an assclown, but I learned I was an assclown, didn’t like being one, and changed. Maybe that is just part of youth–learning how to treat and be treated. My parents never taught me anything about dating. I think being molested as a child also made me a bit wild. I look back and realize I was “all over the place” and acting on impulse. I’m so glad I learned how to think ahead and say “no, thank you,” if I wasn’t really interested in a guy instead of stringing him along. I just wanted to be casual, so I ONLY went for the casual guys. Unfortunately, that meant i went for assclowns. I was in “casual” mode, so I opted out from the nice guys that wanted to date me even if I was attracted to them. I knew they wanted more and were relationship guys and I didn’t want to hurt them with my ways cuz i knew my ways. I made sure I was only going out with the bad guys who seemed so appealing because I was so “out…
Continued from above… I made sure I was only going out with the bad guys who seemed so appealing because I was so “out there,” not knowing what I wanted. I regret letting some really good guys go– I kick myself over that– but at the time I just didn’t want it and it never would have worked. I wish I was then who I am now… I wish I knew then what I know now!! If only I could go back and be different. Unfortunately, me being casual meant I dated assclowns and didn’t learn how to reject assclownery from the guys I was dating. I didn’t learn how to stand up for myself until now. I didn’t have anyone telling me it wasn’t right for the guys to treat me bad because I pretty much never told anyone how bad I was treated or i wouldn’t listen. I kept doing the same thing with different guys, expecting the different result. They were bigger assclowns than I ever was, so i was hooked. I knew how to stop being an assclown TO guys, but i didn’t know how to stop the assclownery to ME. I don’t know what my point is here, really. yea they know what they do… some can learn, recognize what they do, take responsibility and change it and grow up or just avoid hurting those that they know want more. Some can’t or don’t want to. I think a lot of it has to do with the personality… is there a personality disorder, for example. (You can’t treat a narcissist). I know that all my life I battled with commitment phobia and had to study myself to figure that out. I chased the men that were more commitment phobic than me because it let me feel the love and not the fear. I never really committed myself to anyone or anything yet claimed I wanted commitment. I have faulty beliefs about relationships that led me to self-fulfilling bad relationships because I didn’t know how to handle or believe in something good. I can see that all now. So I won’t BE an assclown to the best of my ability, and I will reject an assclown to the best of my ability. I don’t know my point here… just some introspection. Natalie has posts which mention how if a guy tells you he just can’t give you what you want, believe it! Opt out! he isn’t at that point to give you what you want and may never be.
I think most women don’t flush hard enough – and not as often as they should. If I can think of every time a guy turned out to be an assclown, I can identify a moment early on, that something felt wrong. People should trust their instincts. Also, it’s true that a lot of these assclownish men may be handsome and/or successful, but they have deep psychological trauma from childhood. They get to relieve their anxiety and get a “rush” by playing out these sexual fantasies where they control what happens in the relationship – and control you. Do this today. Go talk to 2 men that you admire – whether they’re a colleague, peer, friend, whatever. Then hold other men to their standard. If they don’t even come close, forget them There are more men. Nice men. Who want to be in relationships that are healthy. You will find them if you tough it out and keep your standards high.
Solid post.
Doing a compare-and-contrast of the behavior of these bad pennies vs. the solid-gold male friends and relatives in our lives is an excellent reality test. This has helped me ignore my last guy’s “I miiiissssssss you…Let’s be friendsssssssssss” nonsense. My male friends would not treat me as carelessly as he did, nor do they treat their wives/girlfriends in such a fashion. My ex is not of their caliber. He thinks he deserves to be in my friendship circle? I think not (and my guy friends agree).
I recently tried to restart a friendship with my ex. Foolishly, and goes against a lot of what this blog tells me. Bearing in mind our break-up ended with me starting therapy. THE SAME AS HIS PREVIOUS GIRLFRIEND. We were talking yesterday and he was saying about some girls that had been hitting on him and saying it was because he was so great and they’d be in for the time of their lives. He went on to say ‘I treat girls amazingly, that’s why they fall in love with me’ and ‘I can’t help it if girls get so upset when it doesn’t work out with me, I’m just that amazing’.
This may have been said tongue-in-cheek, but he wouldn’t take it back. I was outraged by his attitude. FLUSH.
Yuck Jenny, yuck yuck yuck. He sounds too much like my horrid MM. Urggggh. Don’t be his friend. Don’t be the person who listens to his bullshit. Let him find someone else. If you and others needed therapy to deal with him in a relationship he aint gonna be good friendship material. Give your precious time to someone who deserves it and don’t give him the chance to treat you badly again.
Good luck love, flush good and proper this time so he can’t pop up again
My God, the arrogance of the man….grrrrrrrr
Jenny, at the very least, that guy is terribly insensitive. Boasting about those girls to you is boorish, and suggests to me that he is immature and insecure — none of which are good qualities for a friend, male or female.
Flush, and close the toilet lid for good measure! Good for you.
Jenny,
He probably believes his behavior was OK because you remained friends. His thinking, if he were such an ass, you would never have communicated with him again.
These guys will never learn if there is no consequence for their actions.
I know. ”I give myself very good advice but I very seldom follow it…” – Alice in Wonderland quote and the story of my life.
But this time I really see his true colours, I don’t even WANT to be friends with someone like that. For the first time since I’ve known him I finally feel like I’m not losing anything by getting rid. (And not because he’s changed but because I have!)
Thank the lord NML has tackled this subjected recently!
I have a F*ck buddy/FWB/ casual ting – different name, same game!
lets call him ‘happy guy’ for a few years, off and on. Actually he been my fall back guy. Through out my relationship with my ex narc and a few other pursuits he would contact me randomly and test the waters to hook up. I had NO intention of making him a BF or to be upgraded. from the first time we met (at a party drunken sex). Happy guy was a FWB. I’ve had others to, but happy guy was actually someone whom I never considered as more than (others have been a mix of me wanting more or him wanting more. urgh. its been messy). Anyway, recently I decided that all these casual relations weren’t doing me any good stopped having sex, I wanted to concentrate on myself and my damaged baggage and stop the sex/attention addiction. I lasted 4 months, before i had a one night stand that didn’t go well and then I called up ‘happy guy’.
On the suggestion of a flatmates observation of him, I stupidly tried to hang with him and go on dates and see if it could go further. My loins didnt like it and he got very confused. So I admitted that casual is all it will ever be and asked him to stop with the pseudo-relationship behaviour and just be booty call with minimal interaction (teals out, conversation etc..). He ignored my message. I sent him on both phone and Facebook. A month went by and I deleted him from my life.
He couldn’t handle the TRUTH. The irony.
NK
I think he COULD handle the truth. He decided it wasn’t for him and opted out. Really, isn’t that the best that any of us could do for ourselves.
It’s the hanging around which ISN’T handling the truth. Or living the lie of “whatever you accept, I accept”.
How did I know I finally grew up? When I flushed every single last ex, hanger on and admirer. At the grand old age of 45.
That wasnt really my point though, I knew the rules, no rights etc in a casual relationship, however how come their casual r ert latio.ship turned into something else? Although I have serious doubts she new about me, so perhaps I was just the other woman while he was waiting for her? Which I suppose makes my whinge obselete! And at the end of the day why would I want a guy like that? He told me she was a temporary house guest because her brother kicked her out and would be away for work most of the time…part if me feels a bit sorry for her – she would have been telling everyone she was moving in with her boyfriend. Argh, I cant believe I have been so stupid!!!
You do have rights. You have the right to walk away. We all treat that like it’s a bl**dy imposition. There are women (and men I’ve no doubt worldwide)who would love to be able to walk away, pay their own rent, live where they wish, befriend who they want.
You also have the right not to stalk his new relationship and to move onto better things.
You have the right to NC him.
balthazar-
sorry you’re so confused and hurting, i know how bad a combination that is. i’ve read through the comments everyone has made, and without further info, it sounds like its either or some mix of: 1- they’re both emotional flakes who are ironically suited to each other – and/or – 2) (sorry, sorry) he was carrying a secret torch for her the whole time (i get this from your statement that SHE started off saying it was just casual) but he wanted more and was just waiting around in case it happened.
either way, it doesn’t matter, and i want to get you off the wheel of confusion. here are the facts:
– he LIED to you, right from the beginning.
– on top of that, they are definitely BOTH EU.
– on top of that, i think you’re missing one thing – you see him as spontaneously combusting into a wonderful guy for *her*, and pining that that’s not what happened for *you* – except you’re missing that that’s not what happened AT ALL. he’s not suddenly some great guy for her – i don’t know why they’re living together, but trust all of us, her relationship with him is NOT one that you would like to have. even if they (sorry) get married tomorrow, there is no way that their relationship is the one (love, care, trust, respect) you want. they lie, they cheat, to themselves, to each other, to everyone – they’re a couple made in hell.
please stop berating yourself. everybody over-compromises for a relationship until they learn not to. take a step back and realize how ffffffffucked up this/their situation is, because it is, very. you don’t want that. and then start disconnecting from it. don’t use the past 18 months to beat yourself over the head – use as many minutes of every day that you can NOW recovering, learning, moving on. forgive yourself. its ok, and it coulda been worse.
and be glad, truly, be very glad its over. that’s a hot mess that you don’t need.
Okay, here’s my shot at explaining it…
Sometimes an EUM is EU because he can’t be ARSED treating a woman properly. So if he meets one who isn’t bothered about being treated properly (because, by the sounds of it, she can’t be arsed treating him properly either), why wouldn’t he install her as a permanent fixture so that he’s got a live-in fallback and the freedom to keep fishing around?
Effectively, it’s because she’s prepared to accept shoddy treatment and you weren’t. If it’s not the sort of relationship that you’d want, though, then I shouldn’t worry about it.
I know it’s embarrassing to look back on these situations (I go through phrases of being mortified), but then perhaps we only learn and grow by making mistakes 🙂
Balthazar,
It sounds like they are both as bad as each other. Misery loves company, right? It’s the same sort of principle. Men like that aren’t really making choices on the girl but on the situation. You came with the option of a well-rounded relationship that would require mutual respect and effort. She came with the option of a relationship where they can both suck the life out of each other by feeding each others egos until they are both left in a mentally unstable mess. You got a lucky escape!
Don’t worry about feeling stupid. There are 100s of millions of women who have made poor choices about men in the past and you certainly won’t be the last either. You live, you learn.
Balthazar, you don’t know what their situation is. Was she a casual FBG with benes who got upgraded? It doesn’t sound like it and, most importantly, it doesn’t actually matter. Please spend some time focusing on the fact that he is a liar as well as a cheat. A temporary house guest? That’s what hung me up. I was buried in the weeds of why her and not me. I overlooked the fact that he was a liar and a cheat. I’m reading Natalie’s new Dreamer book and thought about you, me, and a lot of us when I read this passage:
“With your fantasy ways, like all Fallback Girls, you’re operating under this notion that if you give him what you think you need for yourself, that he’ll reciprocate. In your mind, you reason that if someone were making you the centre of their universe, that you’d feel loved, happy and of course want to commit and cough up a relationship. This unfortunately means that you’re both co-existing in two separate and distinctly different fantasies, so really you’re not even relating to one another. You’re actually both giving to yourselves – if you were truly giving to one another or at least attempting to, you’d at least be spending more of your time in reality. You’ll of course get indications that all is not well, so to keep the persistence of the fantasy going, you focus on coming up with excuses for why all of the things you think should have happened haven’t happened, which only digs you deeper into this unhealthy relationship. As a Dreamer, you don’t know where to draw the line on excuses, especially if there is very little happening between you both”.
Natalie has written about this phenomenon of giving to him what you need. It has always caught my attention and made me think. Balthazar, you have indications that all is not well, regardless of the details. Don’t dig your heels in and flog this three legged donkey. Fearless and I and so many others have great stories about flogging that three legged donkey to no avail. Also, I re- read Natalie’s post on 12 Core Boundaries. It’s a great read. He’s attached. Bail fast and focus on you. The guy is a loser. I know it’s easy to give advice from the outside and I don’t want to seem holier than thou because I still want to flog that frigging donkey. What is wrong with him that he didn’t give me the relationship I wanted after all I went through. What’s wrong with me…
Balthazar… ask yourself this… do you want to stay hung up on this guy so you don’t have to face something outside of him? Do you want to stay hooked on an unavailable guy ( a liar, a cheat), so that you can avoid good guys/ good relationships? Are you obsessed with him and her so that you don’t have to think about you? their relationship really isn’t something else. he didn’t go to therapy and change his ways with her. It doesn’t happen over night or while you are involved with someone else. But guessing about what motivates him now is not the important thing. he was a jerk to you. You did know the rules. Why did you accept the rules? and knowing you accepted them, why do you now find it so hard to believe that the rules would be enacted? I hope i don’t sound harsh, but I have been there. No one was harsh with me. They all analyzed the guy with me, they obsessed with me and let me obsess. No one just straight out asked me what was going on with ME. So I have to ask you… what is going on with YOU. You don’t like how you were treated, you don’t like how it felt then and how it feels now. So do you chose to obsess on him or to look inside you and learn what makes you tick, what you want, what you value? You have opportunity to really grow. I do know how hard it is. I have had to put notes on my phone telling me not to call a guy. I have had to write in a journal everyday asking the universe to give me strength to get through. I have filled up notebooks with all my feelings and obsessions and questions. Do that. get a journal and write out your story and you will start to see answers. Answers wont; come from him, they come from you. Forgive yourself, too.
I really needed to hear yr last post today namewitheld. thankyou 🙂
I am attracted to a guy from work and we hooked up almost a year ago as casual since he had a girlfriend. I didn’t let anything happen to begin with and after a couple months I told him since he’s still with his girlfriend I needed to end this. I chewed him out for following me from one party to the next on New Years Eve WITH his girlfriend and said I didn’t want this anymore. Four months went by and all of a sudden he’s calling again. We get together for drinks, I give him a ride home and when I say I should get going he told me he broke up with his girlfriend. Stupid me took advantage of his advanced and spent the night. NOt sure what to think as he doesn’t call for days. Then what? His (ex) girlfriend picks up his check at work?? (He’s out of town for work). I immediately texted him assuming he lied to me about breaking up. He assures me he is single. We hook up two more times since and the last time he was joking and said FOUR times “I suppose you want to be girlfriend/boyfriend now” I sort of laughed and finally said “no, I think you need to be single awhile.” Well, the why am I putting myself in this situation and sleeping with him? I have totally let myself down by being too easy. I don’t like being a booty call or one night stand at his convenience. NOW, yesterday again, the ex picks up his check. I texted him “Good Grief. NO I don’t want to be gf/bf with that kind of baggage”. Haven’t heard from him yet and not sure if I will???? SO frustrating. I want the opportunity to show him that I am not to be used and LIKE the sound of the gf/bf. Why would he say it 4 times if he was joking? Maybe that is what he wants and the two of us need to buck up and just talk about it. I think we completely intimidate each other and just take advantage of the times we end up hooking up. I’m too old to be so neive but I’m very inexperianced when it comes to dating. I don’t know how to back up and get the dating thing going… ADVICE???
Want
Trust me on this, he is not in the slightest bit intimidated. Men who are intimidated do not bonk you behind their girlfriend’s back. In my experience, they can barely look you in the eye. Though I suppose it’s possible to have sex without looking at someone.
This started out all wrong with the cheating. I think you need to walk away and not try to turn a big mistake into a proper committed relationship. This is one screw up after another. Let it go.
You can’t date him, it’s too late for that (not that it was ever on the cards as he had a girlfriend). I’m older too but some things never change. Do it like this:
1. Go on a date
2. Find out if he is single
3. Go on more dates
4. Hang out together in groups
5. Find out if you want the same things
6. Have sex (and some people wait until marriage).
It doesn’t go like this:
1. Shag him behind girlfriend’s back
2. Lie to each other about status and intentions
3. Start dating
Stop the childish texting, stop trying to make your mistakes good. You made a mistake, let it be that. Don’t keep throwing yourself at it. This can get a whole lot worse if you don’t get yourself in hand.
If I haven’t been blunt enough – have no more contact with him other than what’s absolutely necessary for work, stop plotting how you will get together with him, you aren’t in a relationship with him and he has a girlfriend. Save your dignity.
Want,
This guy is really shady and has repeatedly lied to you! You could NEVER trust this man, and I would ask why you are sticking around and desiring a relationship?
Girl, you can do so much better. This guy has shown you who he is, do you really want to be treated like his current GF?
Why did you get involved with someone who was in a relationship to begin with?
Want – I really would advise listening to Grace. She is absolutely 100% correct “This can get a whole lot worse if you don’t get yourself in hand”. If you continue down this path you are headed for a fall and believe me it will hurt.
Grace – I’ve read many of your responses and your friends are lucky to have you.
want-
in addition to what grave and allison said above, the phrase:
“I want the opportunity to show him that I am not to be used and LIKE the sound of the gf/bf.”
is too little, too late, and too off base. forget about showing him anything. there is NO proving to do here. there is NOONE to prove anything to. do you see? he’s not worth trying to prove anything to, and the opportunity to do so is long past. you don’t actually need to get his validation, so STOP trying to get validation, recognition from him.
grace is right. please do what she says. and remember: you don’t have to kick yourself forever for it, and he’s not that special. cllllllearly.
Thanks everyone, a lit of what you have all said makes sense and had already crossed my mind. I have learnt a lot from these comments, I find it exra hard to undesyand because ive never had a relationship before (im 27). Not sure why, all my friends and their partners openly say without any prompting they dont know why im single. Men just seem to look and not approach. Except for him. Maybe thats why I stayed. A new phase is coming I think I need to trust myself more and I dont think I am beating myself up for “losing” him as much as the role I know I played and the morality of it. Just wish I could meet someone new who is genuine! Thanks again.
balthazar-
i may be off base here, but here’s something that i recently discovered that may help. and i mean this in the cleanest, most spic and span kind of way: if you don’t know already, learn to flirt. again, not sleazy, not dirty, not slutty, not even suggestive. just playful and fun. a lot of girls don’t know to do it, and guys love it, they get scared off by seriousness (i’m not saying you’re too serious, but i am going on your comment “Men just seem to look and not approach”) and they need to feel safe just like we do. flirting, i think, makes them feel safe because it shows fun, happy interest.
if this resonates, google “how to flirt”. its workin’ for me…
big hugs
Dear Natalie,
As ever..so insightful. I have a work friendship where my feelings are engaged but I don’t think his are to the same extent and he has a long-term partner too. I think my male colleague enjoys my feminine presence and appreciation of him and he knows how to charm verbal affirmation out of me. On the other hand, he is also super supportive and helpful in my work. It is one of those nuanced things. It is not all bad and he has been very helpful in career ways.
I sense that he enjoys the frisson he gets with me. It goes deeper with me.
I have contemplated saying something about my feelings to pull the plug on things. But I couldn’t face the long-term repercussions at work. My coping activity, I think, needs to be ensuring that he and I don’t have too much alone time in our work meetings and sticking to my inner truth about all this.
Does that sound wise?
Felicity
Felicity,
“I think my male colleague enjoys my feminine presence and appreciation of him and he knows how to charm verbal affirmation out of me. On the other hand, he is also super supportive and helpful in my work. It is one of those nuanced things. It is not all bad and he has been very helpful in career ways.”
The fact that he will bend over backwards to help and support you does not make it nuanced. On the contrary, he couldn’t have your attention and ego-stroking without being charming and helpful. It is normal. Excessive support may be an effort to make himself feel like a good person when really he isn’t, and to put him on the moral higher ground in case things ever get out of hand. You say ‘it’s not all bad’. That means it’s pretty bad.
It is possible he’s just a nice guy who can’t help but be appealing, but it seems like he’s playing with you. I think nice guys would see the ‘frisson’ and say ‘better disengage a bit, I’m in a long term relationship’. The fact you’ve said ‘he knows how to charm’ shows that whether it’s fairly harmless or he is an AC, he isn’t genuine.
Can you smother yourself in charm-screen, wear charmglasses, enjoy it but don’t let it penetrate or blind you, try not to give him any more verbal affirmations and then see what happens, see what he’s really about. I fear that if you say you have feelings, it will not pull the plug on things but will boost his ego, give him what he wants and lead to a very painful cycle in which he’ll have too much power over you (if only I’d said this to my younger self, sigh).
Felicity
Sounds like a crush and you are handling it as you should, If he is encouraging you, don’t let him. So no flirting. Pun on a blank, rather puzzled expression when he starts up. Because he has a girlfriend.
No, you can’t tell him your feelings. He has a girlfriend. The way you are handling it sounds good but I would wind it back even more as he has a girlfriend There’s no nuance there.
Nat’s dreamer book may be helpful. I’m not saying this is all in your head, but we often fix on these “nuanced” situations because we can’t handle a non-nuanced situation. All the time and energy you’ve expended on someone who has a girlfriend could, in fact, be directed towards meeting someone who is up for a proper 100% relationship. That’s worth more effort than wondering what an attached colleague is up to.
I was always getting into these nuanced situations. I sure wish I’d been the girl who doesn’t run around with attached men. A girlfriend/ wife is real, your dreams for him, they are not.
Hi Felicity,
Your post tweaked my spidey senses and please disregard if none of this applies in your situation. My 2 year affair with a MM began precisely as you describe. Super helpful and supportive of my work, one of those nuanced things, and there was a ton of frission as well. In addition to the other’s suggestions, I would suggest becoming aware of the anatomy of affairs and how OW’s end up in affairs by reading Natalie’s articles as well as the comments, particularly since you admit that your “feelings are engaged”. That is a red flag since his is attached. I was stunned to discover how many affairs started with a supportive work relationship. Unfortunately, your situation is not unique and is pretty standard based on the comments on BR. Thinking back with the benefit of 20-20 BR vision, here’s how I would have handled it, and again, disregard if it doesn’t apply:
1. NO FLIRTING as Grace recommends. Blank him.
2. No private meetings during or especially after work to discuss work. (The exMM admitted getting on committees with me in order to work with me and admitted that the private meetings after work were so he could be with me. He always had a way of just being “there” and admitted it was deliberate.)
3. Keep all convos extremely professional and about work.
4. Stay grounded in reality. He is attached and unavailable, albeit charming.
I don’t mean to sound like a reformed smoker here but your responses to Grace and Happyb “I can do that but it will be an adjustment…So much energy has been expended already ” means you may be getting invested. Reread the OW section in Mr. U and the FBG and read all the OW comments on BR. We all tell the same sad miserable story. Sorry, I guess I am a reformed smoker and I just don’t want to see you or anyone follow the OW trail of tears. You are so fortunate to be able to nip this in the bud and you’ve discovered Natalie’s books and BR. I wish I had BR and some boundaries when my three and a half year debacle started that includes (2 years in and 1 and 1/2 sorting myself out for getting in). Giant sigh and face plant. I didn’t realize in signing up to be an OW, I was signing up for the most casual of all casual situations. Hugely degrading, humiliating, and soul destroying for me.
Another good read is Natalie’s article on “12 Core Boundaries to Live by in Life…
opps over the limit.
Dating, and Relationships”. No. 1 Boundary: No attached persons. One of the comments struck me as the reader wanted to know “And people say, Have you no self-respect? Well, apparently the answer is NO, but where on earth to do I GET some from?” And Natalie responded: “WastedLove – Putting the boundaries in place gives you the self-respect and in time your self-esteem lifts. Your self-respect comes from boundaries. Little or no boundaries is disrespect.” Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries Felicity. No attached persons. Keep us posted?
Felicity
Good comments from the others. This part of what you said resonated with me:
“that I think my male colleague enjoys my feminine presence and appreciation of him and he knows how to charm verbal affirmation out of me. On the other hand, he is also super supportive and helpful in my work.”
My guess is that if you remove your affirmations and appreciations you won’t find him just so helpful or supportive. Try it. He’d like you to be available to stroke his ego and whatever else he can charm out of you whereas he will be available to you for naff all. Don’t be flattered. Be wary. Very wary.
@runnergirl
I sooo look forward to you comments. You give me the strength to move on! I hope to be as strong as you someday.
Hugs
xoxo
Thanks NeverTooLate, I’m not sure I’m strong but I finally got committed to moving on thanks to Natalie and all the wonderful folks who comment. I’m sending you some commitment strength. Hugs back.
Hi Natalie ! I’ve been reading your posts ever since I found out about this site, of course as I was searching for answers, came across your wonderful website.
This really hits the spot, I’ve been married for almost 5 years now, when we got married at the time I was 16, he was 23. I know THAT right there was enough to opt out, but everyone is naive at that age, of course believed everything he told me.
Not going to lie, I was a virgin before I got with him. I was deeply in love, I was love blind. I had another perspective about marriage before I even got married, everything was different, those 1st 3 years he treated me like shit, I cried, got humiliated several times.. in front of friends, at the store.
I always used to say “I’m going to leave him” I don’t need this anymore”
I deserve better, but never actually did it.
Till this day I STILL don’t know how to do it, the thing is that NOW he says he LOVES me & he doesn’t want to lose me, but truth be told, I don’t feel the same towards him, all the stuff he did made me lose interest in him, little by little.
I just don’t know how to let go, I guess cause i’m scared of being lonely, scared to end up single and not finding the one, I feel like if I let go, I’mma miss the ish out of him, & I know DAMN well i’mma miss the THINGS, not the person.
“Upfront isn’t giving 70/80/90 or whatever percent of the story and leaving out the crucial element that is not only likely to cause conflict, but would certainly sway the other person to make an entirely different decision.”
Ah, that is just what I needed to read this week. With the closet polyamorist I’ve mentioned here in the past, I got 90% of the story upfront, but didn’t get that final, crucial, dealbreaking 10% till months into the relationship. I’ve been guilty this week of gaslighting myself: “Wait, maybe he did mention it, and I blanked it out?” “Wait, he was such a thoughtful person in 90% of other ways, surely he wouldn’t let me carry on if he even had a whiff of a doubt that I didn’t know?”
But no, he didn’t tell me. I know myself well enough in that one area. Non-monogamy is such a dealbreaker for me, had he mentioned it before we met, or early on, I would’ve bounced on the spot — just as I bounced licketysplit when it came up months and months too late.
So, for reasons best known to him, the truth is: he chose to convince himself that he had been upfront (he even used that very word, when I called him out). I need to put an end to me being only 60/70/80% honest with myself. The 100% truth is, what he did is not OK, and there’s no point in this mental exercise of trying to weigh and balance his other good points to cancel out that lie by omission. I’d be lying to myself.
“I’ve been guilty this week of gaslighting myself: “Wait, maybe he did mention it, and I blanked it out?” “Wait, he was such a thoughtful person in 90% of other ways, surely he wouldn’t let me carry on if he even had a whiff of a doubt that I didn’t know?””
Wow, gaslighting oneself. I never thought about it that way? Yikes, I did that with more than one ex. Yikes!
Thanks for sharing…. I definitely want to stop myself from doing that from now on….
Hmmmm…..
It’s been a while since I’ve posted but I still follow you every week in Australia Natalie! I feel I’ve come a long way but my ‘look for the good in people’ seems to still be getting me in trouble. I’ve recently met a guy and we had 3 nice catch ups in Melbourne, nothing serious or romantic, just lots of nice chats and not too far from my hood! and he seemed different to most guys I meet that are just after ‘one thing’. We had LOADs of common interests, so I tried not to get too excited about that (as per Nat’s posts!) and make myself think – do we have common values? Sad as I think we do… But this weekend I was supposed to go visit him where he lives, just out of Melbourne, and during the week kept getting the gut feeling he was going to pull the pin. Kept thinking “stay positive!”, but OMG I’ve had a post grad diploma in listening to that gut. Sure enough the semi excuses came through on text last night …bad weather (did I want to reschedule?).. needing to help a friend with a fallen down tree… and then today the swansong text that he was unable to meet today and all sorts of excuses saying he is becoming too attracted to me and his emotions are going to get steamrolled… with a dot dot dot at the end (as if I have anything to say to that) I should have known… but friends always say the nicest things (and I am sick of being a cynic!) I just wonder when it will be that the guy will actually be available. I re-read your post Natalie
Turned my phone off today and have had a great day catching up on things I’ve needed to do. And don’t intend to write back to his ridiculous text. I should have been more upfront when I realised during the week that no plans were in concrete and he was trying to play the good guy and give me the option of cancelling on the weekend. Your last line really rang true “If you’re thinking you probably shouldn’t mention something… it means that you probably should”.
bella
I am so sorry to hear this, it’s so disappointing. When we’ve been through the wringer and have worked on ourselves, it’s disheartening when this happens. But it’s good that you flushed it early.
There seem to be plenty of men who won’t take the next step. I don’t want to expend a lot of time thinking about it (that way lies madness) but maybe they are at the stage in their journey where we USED to be. They’re decent enough not to be users and ACs; they don’t push sex, they can open up but ARE NOT available enough to take the risk of moving a friendship to the next level.
i tell myself that at least my taste has improved, that I’m still attractive and – onwards!
Yes, well done, do NOT hang around waiting. It’s not that there’s a huge rush on but waiting for someone to decide whether or not they like us is a bad habit that most/of all us need to break.
Bellaninha, what I realised that if a guy really interested he would do anything! Once I had a guy, who fly to another country in order to meet me, and we met once before that…IT took him 5 hours flying, driving and walking and all for ….to see me. I dropped him because he was “too nice”, as I liked drama in my life. What I achieved since – NOTHING! Wasted few years with AC, and that guy? He got married and have a lovely daughter! Please don’t get upset that you didn’t meet him this weekend, did he suggested anything? No..Good that you decided not to response to his message! Stay strong!
Thank you Grace and HS, I was touched to receive a little message of support when I logged on. I think once you replied to a post of mine Grace and I know since then I have come leaps and bounds from the ‘me’ of yesteryear! It was lovely to get your thoughts (but not too much thinking ;))
There’s a line in Eat Pray Love about treating everyone you meet along your journey as teachers, and I’m reminded that I spent 5 years with someone who I know I had the same sorts of issues with (plans only confirmed at last minute, pulling out of commitments, keeping options open, me trying to ‘fix him’ etc) People really do show you who they are early on, and I am grateful to be comfortable now with who I am, know I am attractive and (quickly) mourn the loss and move on!
Grace yes I think inherently he is a good person but as you said maybe not at the same point in the journey as me. A year ago when I lived in London I met a great guy who I never doubted liked me and like HS said would do anything to catch up and my gut told me he was husband material, would move to Australia in a heart beat etc. But at the time it was me who was scared off and wasn’t healed from my past relationship and I guess unavailable for someone decent to be with.
Still.. I think the text yesterday was so gutless when we had spoken regularly on the phone, and he was always so over the top about what fun we were going to have this weekend exploring his local area. It was just words not actions 🙂 So I am happy to leave it as heartless as that may be. I’ve got my gorgeous little nieces to hang out with now today and I don’t need to have the last word.
But, ok I just have to share, can you believe this guy is studying psychology?!!
Lots of love and gratitude to you lovely ladies xx
@Balthazar
They are with each other because it does work for them. They both get to do what they want with the security of being the FBG for each other! It’s not a relationship, it is an arrangement of convenience. Relationships need to grow and this never will, it will fall apart or will continue to be a convenient sham and a waste of time for both of them. That is their problem, let them waste their time, YOU don’t waste YOUR time thinking about it, be concerned about YOU and all YOUR glorious possiblitiess!
Little Star
I flushed a guy I dated a cpl of years back for lying to me – once! No second chances on tht one! I didn’t need him to ‘admit’ the lie (he didn’t) & it wasn’t a lie about a major issue. Still HONESTY is at the TOP of my ‘must have’s’ for a r.ship & I’ve never regretted getting ride of him for a second, b/c I know there would have been many MORE lies to come. Just sayin…
T 😉
Thank you for your response. You impressed me Teachable, well done you girl, flushed the guy straight away! I joined dating site this weekend, as I felt lonely. AC still thinks I am on my holiday and did not contact me. I started to chat to three guys and arranged meetings next week, just a simple drinks after work. I will go NC with AC, hopefully new guys will help me to forget him:-)
Hi Little Star,
t is always a bad idea to use other people to forget someone. You are not being open to a relationship with one of these men if you are not over the previous one (who thinks you are still on holiday??). If you need to forget the man maybe spend time doing positive things for yourself to keep busy or with good friends while you work out what you want. One or all of these 3 men might be decent blokes wanting a healthy relationship – not a great way to treat them if so (sorry)
Agree!
Focus on you and address your patterns – take a hiatus from men – instead of seeking an ego stroke to move on from the last. If you don’t understand what brought you to this place, you will continue on the EU highway.
Thank you Polly and Allison for your honest opinions. My Assclown does not know that I came back from holiday, Polly.
You are both right…Please do not think that I want to meet them for ego stroke, I just feel so lonely and want to be loved:-( One of the guys is very keen, older and wiser than me and very patient, maybe I am looking father figure in him, as he seems to “understand” me?
little Star
I agree with Allison, that you’d be better focusing on what brings you here instead of seeking solace on dating sites/dates with multiple men.
“just feel so lonely and want to be loved”
i think we all understand how you feel and, but it does sound like seeking an “ego stroke” to me.
“One of the guys is very keen, older and wiser than me and very patient, maybe I am looking father figure in him, as he seems to “understand” me?”
If you haven’t even met this guy yet, how can you possibly conclude that he is “wise”, “patient” or that he “understands you”? Maybe what he understands are your vulnerabilities (lonely and wanting to be loved) and knows how to play on these. Tread warily.
Happy B and Grace,
I so appreciate your taking the time to get back to me.
Happy B,
You write: ‘I think nice guys would see the ‘frisson’ and say ‘better disengage a bit, I’m in a long term relationship’.’
Yes I have wondered about that!
You also say: ‘Can you smother yourself in charm-screen, wear charmglasses, enjoy it but don’t let it penetrate or blind you, try not to give him any more verbal affirmations and then see what happens, see what he’s really about. I fear that if you say you have feelings, it will not pull the plug on things but will boost his ego, give him what he wants and lead to a very painful cycle in which he’ll have too much power over you (if only I’d said this to my younger self, sigh).’
I like your idea of a ‘charm screen’ and being more aloof and not feeding his ego…hmmm..and then see what happens. This will require some energy + I also need to make sure we have shorter work meetings!
Grace,
You write: ‘Sounds like a crush and you are handling it as you should, If he is encouraging you, don’t let him. So no flirting. Put on a blank, rather puzzled expression when he starts up. Because he has a girlfriend.’
I can do that.It will be an adjustment. It will be interesting too to see how the dynamic changes!!! I am desperate enough to unhook myself emotionally to do what it takes.
I have read both of Natalie’s books. Fab. I think I will re-read.
‘The way you are handling it sounds good but I would wind it back even more as he has a girlfriend.’
Thank you. It is so good to be able to share this.
‘All the time and energy you’ve expended on someone who has a girlfriend could, in fact, be directed towards meeting someone who is up for a proper 100% relationship. That’s worth more effort than wondering what an attached colleague is up to.’
YES ..too true!!!! So much energy has been expended already!
Felicity
Just want to emphasise, when I say ‘see what happens’, I don’t mean see if it develops, more that you will probably see his behaviour more clearly, or clear up whatever is(n’t) going on now and using up your energy. As Grace says, he has a girlfriend. That’s why the blank expression, and the blank mind to follow, are essential.
Lawrence –
I agree with what you said 100%. I know the times I’ve entered into “casual” relationships in the past and I was told by the AC’s that it was casual, despite their ambiguous actions or words or whatever, it was a casual relationship and I most definitely was lying to myself. Period. And the other relationships I was in that were go nowhere with emotionally unavailable men, I had all the clues laid out before me. I just chose not to see them or listen to my gut or work out my own demons and focused and blamed the other person, which was the easier, softer road. We are responsible for ourselves and our choices and as long as we continue to blame others for our relationship mishaps, we will continue to make the same mistakes. Thank you for your comments. Always nice to hear from a man who gets it. Good luck to you.
Well, I stuck my hand back in the fire and went up in flames – again. Sigh. After several years, it is finally over. I thought I could do casual with him after being downgraded from girlfriend a year and a half ago. It has been on and off and this time, I decided I would just enjoy the perks and recognize I could not have any expectations. I stopped by his house the morning after we had been out to dinner and had sex with a peace offering of little gifts on his birthday because we had ended the evening in an argument. He opened the door and shooed me away because he had another woman there that he said was his girlfriend! I feel like such a fool! I yelled at him and got him to bring out the last of my things from his house and sent a lot of angry texts (ugh) but now I know I just have to be done and back to NC for good.
I am thinking of staking out his house and giving “the girlfriend” a kind woman-to-woman note and a print out of his recent text history with me as proof because I believe we all deserve the opportunity to make an informed choice about our sex partners and he unilaterally denied that choice to both of us. Obviously the side benefit is outing his lying, cheating ass!
If any of you were “the girlfriend” would you be grateful to know he had unprotected sex with someone else only hours before you were in his bed? I know I was an idiot and it won’t happen again but she is in the dark. And, I admit I’d like a little revenge on him, too, for hiding that he had an actual girlfriend while hitting me up for sex!
The shock was so bad, back spasms started and haven’t stopped so I couldn’t even work this weekend because I’d be standing all day. I know I’ll be here on BR a lot for a while as I try to process the ugliness of the situation.
Dear FX, you feel very emotional, so I understand you very well…BUT please do not talk to other woman, she probably does not know his “wrong” side and think he is an angel etc, so if you tell her the truth, she will think you are bitter and saying rubbish about him out of jealousy…Please do not do that, just disappear, trust me he will start to wonder where you gone!!! NC all the way! Hugs from me x
Oh dear folks, just read this passage in Natalie’s new Dreamer Book: “You can’t save a relationship if you’re not even trying to save a relationship that exists.
You can’t hold on to someone if you’re not even trying to hold on to a person that exists.” Doesn’t this sum up casual relationships when they become not so casual? Promise I’ll stop posting now. Natalie, this book is incredible. It has eliminated any desire to text-email-contact him. I don’t even know who he was or who I would be contacting! I might as well send a text to Santa. Casual, apparently, doesn’t work well for me.
I’m a little confused as to why women don’t just circular date until that one man puts a ring on it. A single woman should never have less than 3 guys she is seeing. Even if she just wants to be sexually involved with one. Date, date, date! Don’t let that “casual” relationship be the only thing you have going.
Being exclusive is ONLY for serious engagement or marriage. When a man knows he is NOT the only one and you are NOT sitting around waiting for him he will either step up to the plate or step out. And you will be too busy to care which. By the time he comes around you would have either found someone else or give him a shot. Either way it’s no sweat off your back.
But if you put your life on hold for casual you are asking for trouble. Besides men do much better when they feel like there is some competition involved. Women make it waaaayyyyy too easy for men. STOP IT! You have too much to offer. Get out, date…movies, dinner, trips, plays. It does not have to be with your “dream” guy. Waiting for that will only force you into an exclusive relationship with Mr. Unavailable. That is a cardinal sin against your heart. Have fun! When the right man comes along you won’t have to do anything but be yourself.
Give yourself the gift of choice, freedom and peace. Stop telling the goofy, ugly, nerdy guys NO when they ask you out to dinner or a movie. Be nice to all men. Treat them equally until one stands out that deserves your “special” attention. when you find that one you can tell Mr. Casual to kick rocks and he won’t know what hit him. His respect goes up for you, you have taught him a valuable lesson and you have lost nothing.
It works! You don’t whine, complain and act all needy. You are smiling, you have dates and you feel sexy. Mr. Casual will be so confused. Especially if he has been missing in action and you greet him with a smile. Simply say, “Wow, I’ve missed you, but I have been so busy! Let me call you back sweetie.” LOL!!! Men can tell if you are faking so you really have to date. It does not work if you are sitting home mad and try to pretend like you are okay!
Try it!
CJ, When I was younger, I did this without even thinking about it and that was when I took up with the AC. I then lost my job, he stepped in and supported me and, so, I became dependent on him for both emotional and financial support. It became exclusive and the power in the relationship shifted dramatically. In addition to being several years older now (in my 50’s), my lifestyle is not as conducive as it was then to meeting men, either. It just isn’t that easy to find one decent man to date, let alone several, when you look older and have more limited financial resources and confidence. I’m working on the confidence part because I know how valuable it is to get it back. I used to have a ton of it which I still appear to have to others, but I know I don’t feel the same.
I have been looking and even went on a proper date. My plan was to enjoy the perks of the AC while dating others as you suggest but, as I wrote in another comment, the shit just hit the fan. Obviously, a known AC with whom I have a messy history should not be part of my rotation! You would think with all the time I spend reading here and NML’s books, I would have known better…
CJ this is my intention now!!! I am so fed up to be faithful and waste time with Mr Wrong, time to have my own harem…haha:-)
cj-
you said it!!
i only now realize that this is, among all the others, the mistake i made with the EUM – he wanted to go exclusive on *date 5* – and i agreed without negotiating a time frame within which to make a real commitment. and i bet, had i tried to have that conversation with him, that he would have shined me on with future faking because, while he did tell me he was “broken” (did i listen? no!) he had no idea how really EU he was – still, i didn’t protect my own value nearly enough; no wonder i felt like shit in the relationship. he also referred to himself as “monogamous” – which implies marriage, which implies love, and he wasn’t offering love, what he was really offering was sexual exclusivity – NOT the same thing as monogamy, a total mind ffffff…….
i’m now retraining myself, AGAIN, on how to think about these things. no more open-ended boyfriend situations – i need to keep matching my actions to my objectives. which means first and foremost – value myself, and then protect that value. y’know, graciously, politely.
“Give yourself the gift of choice, freedom and peace.” bravo, cj, that’s exactly it. and bless you, bless you.
It’s so interesting that there are so many similarities with these guys and situations. In my case the EU also talked about being ‘exclusive’, though in hindsight it only meant sexual exclusivity, and not a full on relationship or something leading to one.
My thoughts? Well, the first one that aping to mind is have you met my A/C?! Because you seem to have him pegged so well!
Congrats on your marriage – you looked amazing!
I can’t express how grateful I am for all of the advice. I know I need to forget about them and move on, and in a lot of ways i have (NC for 5 months, no thoughts emailing/texting/calling – I cross the street or pretend to look busy when I see them, which happens daily). So that’s progression in my book. I just need to keep going and stop wondering what I did wrong, he even told me that and apologised for getting me “caught up in their mess, you are too good for this and I’m sorry you ended up as collateral damage” (spew!) I should be dating people and taking it slow – but there are actually very few great single men in my city, and this is not just me being negative, trust me I have looked! I live in a place where we are inundated with men who are very uneducated, disrespectful, and just generally scummy but earn big dollars driving trucks on remote mine sites (they fly in and out). I know shouldn’t generalise but it really is disgusting to see their behaviour. Although on some levels the assclown is probably just as disgusting – just in a different way. Please don’t think I’m saying I would rather stay with that guy than the men I’ve mentioned in this post – I would rather be alone, which I guess is what I’m doing.
I know there are probably a few decent ones, but it seems they are all taken or not interested. I would love more than anything to really evolve a healthy relationship, but all I seem to find are these kinds of guys, and we definitely don’t have similar values (i.e. the main pick up line i get is “hey baby, i earn over $100,000k a year, are you in / want a root (aussie slang for sex!)?”. I mean honestly. I’m not pushing away “the nice guy” for an assclown or anything like that. And now after what I’ve gone through with him, I’m not desperate enough to hang out with the majority of these men who are available just to be with someone. I don’t have a relationship pattern to dissect and learn from – this is the first guy who’s made it past the first date since highschool! I just feel stuck! But at least I’m taking better care of myself, drinking less, going to the gym, hanging out with friends who are positive and not draining, so I guess I have changed a lot. So after all this thinking, deliberating, dissecting, worrying, analysing, posting and taking on your comments, the moral of the story for me is: MOVE ON – I DESERVE…
Balthazar,
I think it’s common that we say this when we’re still caught up in something/someone who is no good for us–‘it’s not like I’m meeting a ton of other great guys or anyone who I’m interested in anyways”.
I’ve felt that way myself….it was harder to let go of the EU because it was so rare for me to actually meet someone who I was really interested in, let alone someone who I had such strong feelings for.
But we’re not available to meet a great guy if we have our own issues with being emotionally unavailable, or if we’re still involved with someone else or in the process of getting over someone. Even if there are some great guys around, you wouldn’t see them right now, and it wouldn’t really be the right time for you to meet them anyways. Work on yourself and getting stronger and healthier, and once you’re in a better place and wanting to meet another available and good person, it will happen.
Try not to focus on the jerks you described above, even if there are a lot of them. If you really are living in an area where you feel most people have a different value set from you, maybe you could look into moving somewhere else that is more ‘you’? (Not just to meet a guy mind you, but to be in an overall environment that you enjoy and to have more likeminded people around)
I agree with this 100%. In the end my Casual Arrangement chased contact after I ignored him and I decided he at least deserved to know what was going on. So I told him that I wanted to start being ready for a real relationship and that whatever it was that we had would get in the way of that so it had to end. He didn’t respond to this. I’ve also deleted my internet dating account. I know this sounds like a backwards way towards finding a real relationship. But I KNOW I’m EU right now. As I mentioned earlier, I’m seeing a therapist brought on by the fall out of my last relationship and having my self-esteem worn down to nothing.
I rarely met anyone I liked and when I did they were always bad news. I liked the challenge of thinking I could change them into the perfact guy. NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN. It feels amazing to be focusing on me for once without ACs and EUMs influencing my self-worth.
Jenny, I could say just the same as you, that last paragraph.
I keep thinking of fixing broken windows (from NML’s earlier post), like I need to do a renovation before I can start looking in earnest. Windows and fences need to be fixed (boundaries) and also the furniture, artwork etc. (my character and confidence). I met a possible date recently and after a bit of investigating, realised I wasn’t ready to let anyone in.
By the way I do know a very, very successful couple who met when they were both quite broken. So I don’t think it’s completely linear or formulaic. Maybe it’s because their baggage was life baggage rather than from relationships. They must have been emotionally available and had a good idea of boundaries (though struggled over this for a few years). I guess these are the priorities, anything else is a work in progress and I don’t want to hold myself back forever whilst trying to be a perfect version of me.
@ A & Balthazar
Hi, yes, I am in a very similar position in that I don’t have an opportunity to meet many men, I’m basically introverted and I don’t often find guys I feel I ‘click’ with. But being alone is much healthier then being w/someone who does not appreciate me or uses me as an option or never wants to take it to a serious level of committment. It would be worse then accepting crumbs, it would be like eating poisoned crumbs. However back to the kinds of men I am attracted to, I am now taking a very hard look at that. I used to like ‘fun’, quirky, funny’ but that really is a recipe for ‘immature, not serious, commitment phobes’.
balthazar-
keep going, you’re on the right path. the more you enlighten and fill your life with your own joy and your own gorgeous self, the less you’ll think about (and of) those sorry two. ew, they’re so gross.
and sorry it seems you live in caveman central. but you’re creating your own forward motion, you’re own tide. let this tide carry you along, you never know where it will take you. don’t despair, just believe in what you’re doing, it is all the right things. and i believe more and more that, just like bad things beget bad things, good things beget good things.
big hugs
FX
YES, if I was the new g/f I would DEFINATELY want to know that information. I’m a big fan of outing guys who cheat unbeknownst to all parties though. Some may feel differently but I think these situations differ greatly from those where one party KNOWINGLY agrees to be an OM or OW. If your situation was the former however I say GO FOR IT, so long as you feel that yr safety wont be jepardised. I did & was glad to have done so. After all, why should these AC’s get off scott free? Any guy who thinks I’d slink away w.out exposing his B.S is a moron! Good luck! T 😉
teachable, Thanks for your reply. I am still reeling and trying to process the experience. I’m now angry that he is still taking up space in my brain and it is having an impact on my work. Ugh. I so should have known better but I’m trying not to beat myself up while I decide whether to waste more time and energy trying to get the info to the woman or just let it go.
I have been NC for months at a time with this AC but this time, I kept telling him about himself and threatening repercussions by text and email over the last couple of days because I’m so pissed he gets to just go on his merry way while I’m losing my mind. I think I’ve humiliated myself enough with that tactic! Especially, because anyone who can do what he did is probably not bothered at all by anything I could say to him.
Fx,
I do know how you feel as I wanted to out the exMM to his wife, particularly when he would send the “miss you/love you” messages after I was in (faux) NC. The very wise ladies on BR advised me to let.it.go. focus on me, heal, and move on. I followed their advice and I’m grateful I did.
When I repeatedly broke NC by either responding or initiating contact, I always got burned too. I think I’d chalk this up to a “suck it and see” experience and heed the lesson. I had to work through my anger (still do) because it does seem like they get to go on their merry way while we are stuck picking up the pieces of our self-esteem off the bathroom floor. I tell myself that he is going on his merry little EU way. I have the opportunity to change.
I’ve also realized, I can’t handle casual and seldom do casual situations develop into healthy relationships.
If I were in your situation, I’d focus on your health, job, and healing. Sorry you went through that experience. Grrr!
FX, that is really heartbreaking. It’s a tough call whether or not you say anything, I think no. I was once contacted by the other woman who I didn’t know about, and he convinced me she was just a vindictive ex who didn’t want him to happy. I only know in hindsight that she was obviously genuine. I expect most commenters here will vouch for believing absolutely anything when taken in by an AC.
The unprotected sex is another thing, but not a reason in itself – if she isn’t using protection, she is choosing to take that risk, unless he has actually told her he’s been tested clean and there’s been no one since, but that seems a very unlikely scenario – if he’s the creature I’m thinking of, he’s a master of avoiding direct conversations. Sorry this is a horrible discussion.
I think you have got to be thankful for this wake up call. It might go on for years otherwise, and now let’s take it you will never put your hand back in the fire, his or anyone else’s. Don’t learn anything about her, it’s much better for your wellbeing if you let her be a blank. No stalking, wash your hands of him, and start on that wondrous journey to self esteem and fulfilment.
Little Star
Don’t get me wrong hey. I’ve been as foolish in love as any of us here except my situation only involved one person (the xAC who I kicked to curb 18 mths ago but am still recovering from) rather than a pattern of behaviour with different ppl.
Otherwise, Polly offers you wise advice. Maybe take a little time out before dating (seriously at least) again. The last thing you want is to end up in another unsuitable situation due to not taking time to sort yrself out. It’s just a suggestion but I one which I believe & have experienced as sound. All the best.
T 🙂
Yes, you are right Teachable…I had two dates today, one at 6 pm and one at 9 pm, talked to guys and felt nothing! You, Polly, Allison and Fearless were right that I must concentrate on myself and do not waste time with dating I am not ready to meet anyone. Thank you yet again for your advices!
I read this last night and thought it was applicable. Sometimes, I’m afraid, we prefer to stay in the role we have cast ourselves, because there is a pay-off, despite the devastating consequences. And we’ll keep on doing it until we can’t do it anymore. We have to be honest with ourselves.
“From this definition, manipulation would seem to have no advantages. However, if you are codependent and defined by others, there can be many advantages. When you allow others to control your thoughts, feelings, behaviors, and make decisions for you,
— you do not have to think for yourself;
— you can avoid taking risks and making difficult decision;
— you can avoid taking a stand on controversial issues;
— you can avoid feeling responsible for negative outcomes;
— you get to blame others when things go wrong;
— you can believe, when others tell you how to behave, what to think, how to feel and what to decide, that you are “being loved” because they “want what is best for you”;
— you can avoid feeling separate and alone by avoiding conflict;
— you can avoid the hard work of emotional growth and development.
Appreciating the advantages of not being manipulated is to accept the hard work of living and interacting with others. It is about being willing to grow and develop emotionally. These advantages can be that,
— you learn to know who you are, what you like, what you think, and how you feel;
— you learn to make difficult decisions;
— you get to take credit for your decisions;
— you learn to handle risks and uncertainty;
— you learn to handle differences and conflicts;
— you get to be in control of your life and know the freedom of personal self-reliance;
— you get to have an increased sense of self worth by feeling competent and capable of taking responsibility for your life and personal happiness.” – Mary Treffert, selfworth.com
LoJ
Yes, this is what lies beneath all the “I can’t”s and the excuses, and the holding him/her out as the answer or the problem.
to take what lo j wrote a step further, to demonstrate those devastating consequences in order to hopefully lend this even greater perspective, and sorry if this lays it on too thick…
the codependent list describes who my mother was when i was growing up. aka the woman who let her raging maniac of a sociopathic narcissistic husband manipulate, dehumanize and abuse her children, and then lie about it. her children whom she carried and gave birth with her own body. she stood by, right there, and did nothing because she had abdicated her mind, her rights, her self to him, the crazy, vicious tyrant. because it was easier to cede her thinking to him than to … i don’t know, whack him in the head with a frying pan and tell him to shut the hell up and knock it the hell off.
now, the person we abuse when we give up control is – ourselves.
Outstanding comment lo j!
I absolutely agree with this comment. Imho: There is always a ‘payoff,’ and the ‘payoff” is what writes, seals, and fuels certain aspects of the relationship that you have with yourself that is reflected in the way you exist in the world; e.g., how you treat yourself and others, and how you choose to live your life, which all influences your choices regarding the people you allow into your life via relationships, again–the real relationship is really with yourself, not your partners, friends, family, …; the relationships that you have with others are really secondary relationships that are reflections of the primary relationship that you have with yourself. Thus, an unhealthy relationship with your partner is really a reflection of an unhealthy aspect of the relationship that you have with yourself that seeks a “pay off.”
You have to “give up” the ‘payoff,’ if you really want to change and heal.
It isn’t always easy; it is usually hard, and it takes a great deal of effort and work, so many people “turn back” and seek the payoff, but it really is “doable,” but it takes courage, which to me is more the calling of the heart; intellect is great, but you have to “have ‘alotta’ heart.” And, if you need help, the good news is, there is a great deal of help “out here,” take Natalie for example–you couldn’t ask for better insight…. I’ve never been privy to such information as to what is contained on this site. Talk about the lights turning on….~~~~:)
Thank you for sharing~~
You’re welcome. Isn’t it amazing when the lights turn on! The world is no longer black and white, but it is crystal clear with clarity!! I love it!! Grateful for my experiences and this site as well!!
Oopsie. Selfgrowth.com
Runnergirl,
Did I miss your post first time around? Well, many thanks to you too for your super helpful feedback. I really appreciate your wisdom. In a recent meeting I had, I was very focused and professional and then felt disappointed that there had been so little frisson!! I have to admit this..it is like coming off an addictive substance and the addictive bit is feeling that I am attractive to him…. If I have lost that power than what does it say about me? So I am a little conflicted on the inside ..I want the ego strokes too but not the emotional hookedness. Anyway, what helped was the fact that this guy was very tired having traveled from business abroad. So, he was in a matter of fact mood too.
I do have another meeting planned but that is not for a while and has a particular task focus and then there won’t be meetings for a month or so.
I think because I haven’t been in touch with this guy much via email and have been quite strict with my own thoughts… perhaps the ‘heat’ has gone from the situation and it is now important that I don’t allow it to reheat at any level.
I also realise that ‘blank mind’ rather than over thinking my strategy is a brilliant approach because it makes the energy of the whole thing smaller.
Finally, thank you for all the wise thoughts and I really resonated with the act of not doing certain things, the choosing of boundaries, creating the self-esteem ..a positive cycle to get into. I will re-read Natalie’s stuff too.
Hi Felicity,
You didn’t miss my response. I posted after the other’s responded to you. Thank you for catching it and responding. If you don’t mind, I think my spidey senses were a bit spot on. If you already feel like you are coming off an addictive substance, you are. Natalie’s post regarding casual relationships is exceptionally perfect. If you want to experience the most casual of casual relationships, sign up to be an OW. After having live two years in OW casual hell and experiencing casual beyond the pale, the initial ego strokes weren’t worth my self-worth, self-esteem, and self-respect. I so totally get how you want the ego strokes without the emotional hookedness. However, it seems as though you may already be hooked. You seem to be aware that you are in danger girl, and you are. I’d suggest that you stay off the email with him. When attached guys are “tired” and tending to their real partner, they resort to lazy communication to make sure you are still an option. Listen to me! He, he…Sorry to be such a proselytizing, born again. I’ve just so lived it and it is still so fresh. That being said, everything Natalie says in this article pertains directly to what I experienced as a OW. It totally sucked which is an understatement. Don’t allow any reheat, frission, and/or anything remotely similar. You are in control. The guy is attached. Parachute and jump, unless you want to sign up for some random sex, ego stokes, and a trillion texts. I don’t know if you are ready to hear this yet but what if you were the “main woman” and he was interacting with an another woman as he is with you. Would that be okay with you as the main woman?
Happy b,
Thank you too. Yes, don’t worry I didn’t get the wrong end of the stick here.
Felicity, thank you. I am conscious in writing these words that they might seem unkind and even more of a concern, so easy to say. This stuff is so intoxicating.
It hurt me yesterday when I accidentally dug out an old drafted letter to the ex EUM/AC, sent when I was barely an adult. It was further evidence that I always knew he was no good, I knew WE were no good, and I refused to act on it. I wrote in the letter that even though he wouldn’t commit to me, I saw signs that he really cared and acted considerately and wanted me in his life so I wanted him in mine too and was glad we’d ‘reconnected’.
If I’d got real, yet still been silly enough to grace him with a letter, I would instead have said, ‘even though occasionally you do and say the right thing and seem to understand me and make me feel really good, this is just your ego hooking in my ego and the dull reality is you will disappear for months, you have humiliated and undermined me with words and actions, and you will not even entertain the idea of committing to me’.
Even more ridiculous, this letter reminded me that I’d kept away when he finished with his girlfriend to avoid facing that there was no excuse for his distance. That’s how well I KNEW, yet it carried on, on and off, into the future. WTF was the matter with me? This crack seriously stunted my development as a responsible adult, indeed I would have scoffed at this sentence but had I been responsible, I would by now be living the adult life I dreamed of and thought I had a right to.
I have just about come to terms with it. As the NC months go on, I don’t celebrate but think ‘well duh..why didn’t you do this x years ago’. With the spell shattered, there is no willpower involved. I am relieved, but seeing that old letter opened up some old wounds.
I am venting, and this isn’t your situation, but I see that same crack-like substance, where you know it’s no good but still entertain it.
Hi Runnergirl,
Thank you for responding and yes, I think, emotionally I am definitely hooked and needing to come off the substance! It sounds like you have had a really tough time. I people really benefit from your hard won wisdom!! I have found it tough too having emotions that can not be expressed or built upon. The first few months of working with this guy were amazing for me because my circumstances were tough and he was appreciative, supportive etc etc But as you rightly say, those ego strokes are not worth the pain that follows ..even without a sexual relationship. My feeling …and I may be wrong … is the following. a) I don’t meet up with this guy so often now and our respective roles have changed.. although I still need to meet up with him on a semi-regular basis for genuine professional reasons. b)I don’t initiate email banter any more either. c)I am very focused on my work which takes me away from the city where we both work on my own business trips and d) some of the novelty of him knowing me has worn off for him…. I think I am over the point at which things might have heated up in a full on way. However, ..it is my emotions that are still heated up and I feel so sensitive to the way he responds to me. I think my challenge is unhooking my self-esteem from the way he responds to me. If he is a little distracted or tired..I feel that I am not woman enough! I know that must sound stupid…but I hope you get it. It really is like coming to terms with a broken relationship..but one that never happened. I don’t mean that there is absolutely no risk of a sexual relationship just that I really don’t feel that is very likely at this stage. But the amount of energy and thought etc etc that has gone into this from my side is way out of proportion. Thank you for letting me splurge! I guess I simply need to be professional at all times, to be ‘blank mind’ after meetings (there are not too many in the next six months), NOT to look for or seek ego strokes, to be happy if there are none! Felicity x
Hey Felicity,
I hope you don’t think I’m stalking you (to paraphrase Fearless) but you are in a bit deep. ” If he is a little distracted or tired..I feel that I am not woman enough! I know that must sound stupid…but I hope you get it.” Oh how I get it. Before we hooked up, I hung on every email and counted the hours, minutes, and seconds until he responded. I was hooked via cyberspace. You are fortunate to have dialed the 911 BR hot line. Your plan sounds good. May I add a suggestion? Given the fact that you are being honest with yourself and you know you are invested inappropriately, it may be time to consider NC. Nat and other folks have had to go NC with folks they work with (or are raising a child with) and it is difficult but not impossible. Don’t guess you need to be professional at all times. Do it. You are in possession of all the facts. The guy is in a relationship with another woman and hitting on you. “Being ‘upfront’ actually means being honest even in the face of discomfort and possible conflict because you have to step up and boldly lay out the truth.” So you know the truth. This supportive work colleague may be exploiting your vulnerability….just a thought.
In any event, you seem to recognize you are being taken for a casual doormat, ego stroke and are taking steps to protect yourself. That’s good. For the life of god, I hope you don’t have sex with this guy. Try to imagine having great, move you to tears sex, and then he gets up, washes himself, and goes home to his gf. Talk about humiliating. But he’ll text in the morn…”Good Morning Sunshine”. I’m glad you feel better today. I go up and down still. But I’m more up now than down. Be honest with yourself. This guy is attached and has nothing to offer you. I’m writing those words to me too! Hang in there with NC. Cheating men are a dime a dozen. Could somebody get them a new playcard? It’s pretty old.
Thank you for sharing that draft letter, the lessons and your process. Tough realizations eh? What I hope for you and for me is that our lessons create a foundation for new hope in relationship. I really hope that for you..especially as you get this fresh wave of insight!
Do you know, I was reflecting just now on the crack side of things… I don’t want to sound remotely smug but I was reflecting and praying and I took great comfort in the dawning realization that, partly because I was inspired by Natalie’s work, and partly because I was getting so drained etc, it was my actions that broke the chain of regular contact. I ceased to engage in banter, I ceased to be as available in terms of frequency of meetings and in terms of flexibility. I should be feeling complimented that the terms of the friendship have shifted…. I still want the old ‘crack’ because I have a fragile female ego, but he can’t pay the full price for me so is not paying half price for me or even a small down payment!!! I am feeling so much better for realising that. Yes I will and do miss the frisson…. but it is not failure of attractiveness to be above his price point!!!! I am so grateful for your honesty and that of the others on this discussion. I could not have arrived at that realiziation without your help and experience. And I must be vigilant too. I could easily get drawn back into a more frisson heavy vibe with him. But I feel a heck of a lot better this afternoon than I have done for a few days!!!
The start of that last message was addressed to Happy B!
FX
I understand what yr going through as my situation was very similar. I too managed NC for mths at a time, multiple times, before ending it for good, which I wasnt able to do until I learned the truth. I agree that hanging around anywhere to try to get info to the new g/f would be a drain on you. It also runs the risk of coming across as a bit stalkerish which it wouldn’t be if you only saw her once, passed the info along & left it at that. I also was pee’d off at myself for ‘wasting time’ even THINKING abt the AC. It’s a shame there isn’t some way you could just phone the new g/f to give her the info. In my case there were also issues that he was having unprotected sex. For many reasons, in my case, knowing where the other party worked & her first name at least, I finally called there one day explained in brief the nature of my call & who I was. She immediately gave me her mobile number & asked me to call her back on that, which I did. We then had three phone calls over a 10 day period where we ‘compared notes’ & sussed out the true extent of his infidelity. She was VERY happy that I called as she had suspected something was going on but had no proof. She wasn’t angry with me at all & rather we both recognised that the one to be angry with, was the AC, as he’d played us both like fiddles (& there were OTHERS also! ugh!!)
I have not spoken to the xAC since & I don’t intent to. I got rid of the other parties number & left it at that. I believe they seperated for 6 mths & recently reconciled. I don’t care in the least though. In my situation, revealing the truth finally set me free for once & for all. It’s not my place to tell you what to do & I don’t know all of the details of yr sitch but hope that sharing my experience is helpful in some small way. Good luck with it all & I look forward to hearing how things pan out. T 🙂
teachable, Thanks for your reply. I don’t have an easy way to get a message to the gf so it probably would involve stalker-like behavior… As much as I’m burning to pass a letter w/proof to her, unless something changes, I probably won’t.
I still can’t believe I re-entered a casual relationship with him after everything in our history. Very foolish. When he started pursuing me again, I even joked that he’d have to be dosed with Truth Serum first! After I found him out, I wondered why he was blowing so hot if he had a new girlfriend. What happened to the honeymoon phase in that relationship?!! I actually think he just wanted to conquer me and punish me for rejecting him during my last NC.
He is truly an AC and he and the drama were an unhealthy and unproductive addiction I should have quit cold turkey long ago. I guess I kept thinking I could be the exception but I am done looking for the right relationship with the wrong person.
PS In cases like ours, where we were led to think the AC was single & unknowingly tricked into being an OW never realising there was someone else all along, there really is no shame at having done the wrong thing, so no harm in letting the OW know. NOT telling all raises questions for me as a motive this can be trying to avoid raising the ire of the AC by exposing him, which in turn, can be related to leaving a back door to the situation open. In my case I wanted that door firmly shut & now that it is I feel 100% better. If I was the betrayed woman on the other end I would also WANT to know what had been going on behind my back. To me the sisterhood always comes first. AC’s are just a waste of space who deserve all they get & then some! 🙂
I have to get all of this off my chest. I caused my anguish by creeping his profile page since I thought we could be friends again after 7 mths of NC with the EUM.
– I feel extreme pain and jealousy all of a sudden
– Someone is sharing their feelings, laughs and time with MY person
– I feel betrayed
– I feel competitive and insecure that she is physically attractive and athletic
– I’m sad that he is sharing his experiences with her
– The girls all look the same (type), they are tall and blonde, I’m so different
– I regret that it didn’t end sooner between him & I
– Mad that I’m seeing validation or some form of contact with him (source of pain)
– I must have tricked myself into thinking we could be friends
– I thought I was over it
– How can I feel this miserable over a harmless fb post
– What does he think about me and how poorly (NC) I took on rejection
– Is he falling for her?
– I’m still in the same place I was before (I was alone when I was with him – EUM, I’m alone now)
– I wonder if she is of the same ethnicity as him and if his family approves just based on this fact
– I doubt my ability to trust and get close to someone new / more suitable to me
– Change is petrifying after 6 1/2 yrs of back and forth
– Being in a committed relationship is even scarier, I wish for it, then run from it
– Everyone in my close group of friends is settling down, I lack roots
– I have only had this one casual “relationship”/ friends with benefits my whole life, other short flings aside
– Friends feel sad for me that though I have tons to offer, I keep wasting it on that one individual who fails to see it
– How is this ever going to change, I’m doing all the right things to grow past it, let it go, but I’m still not there
– Trying to remind myself that what he does in his life is none of my business
– Is this it? How much can you ever let go? Clearly it’ll remain a part of me
– I have a lot of tension over a little post, what’s going to happen when he marries another? Will I fall over and die/
– I all of a sudden feel unsure of myself
– I know I have a lot to give, but am having trouble trusting anyone new
– Is he treating her better, wish he had treated me better
– Bestfriend said, “That’s it, you go back 1 more time and NO ONE will support it.”
– He is finally moving on, he meant it this time, that is coming as a shock…
Atrophy,
Have you sought counseling?
– How is this ever going to change, I’m doing all the right things to grow past it, let it go, but I’m still not there.
You’re not doing the FIRST right thing – getting him off your FB In fact, I recommend deactivating your account. You can reactivate it again in a month or so, it’s not a big deal.
Everything else you do counts for nought if you’re going to keep with the FB.
-Clearly it will remain a part of me
No, it really won’t.
Get Nat’s dreamer book. It’s hard to move past fantasy and the delusion. It DOES take time and effort. It does require you to CHANGE but it’s doable. Stop feeding yourself these lies.
You fear having nothing if you give this up. I believe that you would feel better than you can possibly imagine.
Atrophy,
As a veteran of fantasy and barely there relationships, I can tell you one of my experiences of trying to start something with someone who a) was reluctant, b) had 2 weeks to go before they flew out of the country on a year long exchange!
I was so focused on keeping up with them in the hope that when they came back we FINALLY could start something, as surely, it was the fact that they were going overseas was the reason they couldn’t be with me – right?
Wrong – when they came back after a year, they appeared to be with someone else. Not only that but ALL THE PAIN CAME BACK – it was really unbelieveable. I spent another year trying to get validation from them and hoping that we could still be friends – so there you go – TWO YEARS down the loo, and we didn’t even sleep together once!
After 6.5 years of yo yo girl, trust me, even IF he does change, 99.99% of the time he has been a total ASSANOVA to you. The only way out is NC and some psychology to get to the root cause of the issue.
Don’t go back – you’ve been back there a bazillon times. Why would it be any different this time? Timing is not the issue, him being an asshole to you *is*.
Dear Atrophy.
I go through your long………………………. list everyday myself. I have been dealing for 3 years. I think he is finally done with me now I need to be done with him and am struggling to move forward. I wish there was a pill to take to make all of him leave my head.
I worry that this will never stop.
dawn
Atrophy
I’m sharing your pain! I have struggled too not to care anymore. I’ve been NC for a long time and I still have sudden pangs of terrible hurt over it. Thankfully, my ex doesn’t do face book or anything similar; I know it would be too great a temptation for me not to look. I guess the only thing to note here is that you broke NC by looking at his f/bk page and you are experiencing the consequences. Lesson learned… stay away.
It helps me when I focus on how NONE of your list matters anymore cos it’s over and done. Nat’s advice on a previous posting: ‘learn acceptance’ summed up for me what I was striving to do in all of this. I knew that was what I needed to achieve, and I was, and am, little by little, day by day. Odd that I found ‘acceptance’ such a struggle in this relationshit cos it’s something I do pretty well in other areas of my life – I think these situations, these casual, on again off again frustrating and unfulfilling relationships, (especially when they become protracted over years as mine was) are deeply and relentlessly hurtful and become so heavily bound up with what we think of ourselves that it feels almost impossible to get over them. I am the adult child of an alcoholic father, have lost close family members to death, I was abandoned by the father of my child to raise her on my own (22 years ago now), and yet this ex EUM relationshit has caused me more profound and confusing grief (and hurt) than anything else I have ever experienced.
Just want you to know that there is someone here who understands. Fight for acceptance of what has happened, don’t dwell on what is beyond your control, make sure this shit never happens to you again and most of all, to that end, accept that it is over with him. say your goodbyes, and thank god that in being over it means your hurt can now end, if you let it.
Atrophy,
So so so sorry for your pain and sorrow. At one point, I could have written everything you expressed. There’s no way to be “friends” based on your feelings and his actions. You cannot be treated as an option or play second fiddle. You will grow past this. I agree 100%, change is petrifying and I was alone when I was “with him”. You ask: “How is this ever going to change, I’m doing all the right things to grow past it, let it go, but I’m still not there.” Me too. However, I am firmly committed to not going back to a casual FBG. I’m not sure where I’m going either. But I’m not going back. As Natalie and the other wonderful ladies have advised me: Let. It. Go. You will not fall over and die if he marries another. I really appreciated the visual. Since the ex AC was already married, it made me snicker. Here is what you do: 1) Do not cyber stalk him.
2) Get something do to that doesn’t involve him. 3) Limit the amount of time you spend thinking about him. 4) Spend 10 minutes a day thinking about you. 5) Spend more time each day thinking about you than you spend thinking about him. Add it up. It’s scary. 6) Do something that makes you feel good every day. We don’t need guys to make us feel good. Ok, so now I’m going to go back and re-read everything I said to you… cos it applies to me! My fingers are crossed for us!
Atrophy,
I’m so sorry to hear your having all these thoughts. I’m very familiar with them myself, and I’ve done the same thing of looking someone up and then realising that ignorance is most definitely bliss. The four points that I really can connect with are:
– Being in a committed relationship is even scarier, I wish for it, then run from it
– Everyone in my close group of friends is settling down, I lack roots
– I have only had this one casual “relationship”/ friends with benefits my whole life, other short flings aside
– Friends feel sad for me that though I have tons to offer, I keep wasting it on that one individual who fails to see it
I would really recommend seeing a therapist. I was unsure at first, it seemed a bit extreme after just a break up, but I’ve learned so much about myself and why I think the way I do and once you start to understand these things you see everything in a different way and it’s much easier to be more rational.
It’s not him that is causing you this pain, it’s yourself. I’ve been through exactly the same thing where my confidence has been completely worm to nothing and my mood was based ENTIRELY on how he was being with me that day. Fortunately you can fix yourself, and learn to forget about him.
Hi Atrophy
Like the posters who have answered you already I can relate to what you wrote.
I truly felt like I was going round the bend with my thinking it was all focused on
him last thought at night first thought in morning dreams in between.
I didn’t think it would end the obsessed thinking the questions I wanted answered.
But it did thank goodness.
Things that helped me were keeping a note book and pouring out all my thoughts and anxiety into it it turned into many many notebooks filled with my angst but it helped and you can say and do it in any fromat you like.
No one is going to read it.
I deleted his number from my phone I had a terrible texting habit I put his number in a hard to get to place it saved me from sending many a text.
I joined a gym it is amazing how much phyiscal exercise can help I walked that tredmill in anger sadness etc etc but I started to set goals for myself and focus on something other than him. This has led to completing a charity run again the focus is off him.
I posted a lot on here on took on board what people had to say in response.
Natalie’s one repeated question to me was ‘what are you avoiding in your own life that you keep focusing on him?’ maybe you could ask yourself this.
And one thought that really kept me going was
HE IS NOT SPENDING ALL THIS TIME THINKING ABOUT AND FOCUSING ON ME WHY SHOULD HE BE GETTING ALL MY TIME?
It took 15 long months eventually you come out the other end but you have to work on you.
atrophy-
everyone’s comments here are great. i hope my 2 cents help.
i too went through having my EUM be my last thought at night, who i dreamt of, and my first thought in the morning. i never thought it would end.
i went out with other guys, journaled, went to therapy, exercised, meditated, cried, complained, tried to retrain my thoughts, got busy etc. everything everyone else here says they did and more. and it got better, but it didn’t really completely go away. the problem is that the unfinished business lay with me, really, not with him.
last week, yes, just last week, he rewrote his online profile. and like a friggin’ fool, i looked at it. its like i knew something had changed, i felt it in the force, and i looked. and i was right. he made himself sound EA instead of the stunningly emotionally crippled EU he had been when he was with me. he is now actually offering everything, to whomever else wanted it, that he had *dangled* in front of me when he was telling me he was broken, the timing was bad, i was too needy, i could do better, he wished he was the kind of person who would take me places, he was a loser, etc etc etc. NOW, all of a sudden, when i actually LOVED him back then, he’s (supposedly) willing to love…someone else…
it went right through me.
and then it hit me, probably helped by all those months of working on myself: WHY in the WORLD would i continue to waste myself on someone who:
1- is probably still EU and over-advertizing his readiness for a relationship
2- even if he is really, truly EA, and has spontaneously combusted into the person i wanted him to be, he:
a- never, ever, EVER really treated me right, and i have to go on who he was to me, not who i want him to be
b- was self-centered and emotionally ungenerous, which would probably not really change even if he were EA
c- he never apparently really gave that much of a crap about me, because he let me go and…
d- …he’s not banging down my door, telling me he’s sorry, he’s ready, he loves me, etc
3- i want someone who adores, cherishes, and worships me, GENEROUSLY, not someone from whom i have to beg for crumbs that he then calls loaves
and for the first time, yes, just the other day, the light went on – for the first time, it occurred to me that letting go of him could feel like FREEDOM, not like loss. that i love me now, and i don’t need his…
…sorry, comment too long…
…lame-ass validation. i have me now. for real. i don’t need him, . do i want a partner? yes. does it have to be him, the pathetic, self-pitying guy who let me down? shit no!!!
atrophy – stop cyber stalking him. stop thinking that this girl, whoever she is, is better than you. she’s not. VALUE YOU, who you are, how you look, what you feel, what you think, what you want, what you need. focus on you, invest in you, heal your past hurts. then you’ll see that he’s not all that, and that there is SO MUCH, and so much better, out there for you.
i’m sorry you’re hurting. but you don’t have to. love yourself. its the best love there is.
atrophy-
sorry, more.
letting go of my EUM is sad, but no sadder than this whole sordid episode has been. he’s not here. hasn’t been for months. he doesn’t love me. i made mistakes in the relationship, but so what, and he totally fucked it up. he was actually a pretty sucky boyfriend. if it were right, it wouldn’t be over, but it is. its over. and i’m really, truly ok. i know i can be happy, and find someone really right for me.
try to let go. keep letting go. grieve the relationship, but know, KNOW, *KNOW* that there is light at the end of this tunnel. truly. he’s not the be all end all. he’s not.
again – love you. you love you.
Fearless,
Thank you for your comment. Regarding older guy, I am talking to him every single day and he seems fine, we talked about past relationships and our experiences in life and what we are looking for…I am going to meet him tomorrow, he said that he is very nervous to meet me. Strange really, considering his age (50)…IF I would not feel right, I will give up dating for at least couple of months and see how I feel…I am very grateful for this wonderful site, Natalie and ladies, who share their stories:-) Thank you!!!
Good work Atrophy. No-one here can give you the answers to yr many questions although many will empathise & relate. If I was you, I’d take out a notebook & write the answers to those questions. No-one overcomes these issues without ‘doing the work’ in one form or another. Many go to therapy also. You might also find doing that helpful. All the best.
Runnergirl,
I don’t think you are stalking me at all. (BIg smile!). It is beyond helpful to be able to talk about all this crazy stuff.
I have to keep telling myself ‘he has nothing to offer me’ rather than my usual self-talk which is ‘how have I failed to maintain his attention?’.
That is why yesterday, I felt better because I realised that if he is not as attentive it is a good thing and means that I am succeeding in being in the right place relative to him. It is a sign that my strategies are working (even tho’ a bit of me doesn’t want them to!)
Runnergirl, how does NC work with a colleague that you are required to meet with. For a variety of reasons, my job requires me genuinely have to remain in touch with this guy. I have decided to pull out of one social activity (a group of us from work go out together occasionally) and am only, now, sending professional emails for information/meeting details etc
Thirdly, I really don’t think the threat is that we will sleep together. I am not smug I promise you. The threat for me is more that I get ‘hooked’ into trying to keep him interested in me. My self-esteem wants him to really like me. Like you, I count the minutes after I send an email or whatever….
Yesterday, I felt so much better and more full of self-respect when I thought…if this guy is cooling right down, it is because he has stopped seeing me as a casual ‘flirt’/’fun’ colleague. He is seeing me more as a professional colleague.
This is not feminine failure this is success! I have to keep telling myself that he has nothing to offer me. And if he is feeling that he can offer it to me…I am not respecting myself enough!
Despite what I am writing here..I have avoided meetings and stood right back now for a good few months. So, I am hoping that I am on the way to getting my full stability back!!
Thank you!
Felicity,
It sounds like you are doing brilliantly! So many of us get drawn into these situations and blindly carry on getting carried away with the attention and ending up in a great big mess so well done to you!
It can be very tricky when you work with someone but it is just about being very firm with the boundaries – emails about work only – not getting drawn in to chat, don’t sit next to them in meetings, and – like you are doing – avoid social situations for a while and definitely those where alcohol is involved!
“I have to keep telling myself ‘he has nothing to offer me’ rather than my usual self-talk which is ‘how have I failed to maintain his attention?” I think this is an excellent point for pretty much all of us. I know NML has made it a number of ways, too, in other posts but I especially needed it right now. Thanks!
FX, I agree — I think that flipping the self-talk on its ear, and reframing it, is so key. “What’s in it for me?” is an effective way to bottom-line dubious relationships.
There indeed lies the key, ” What’s in it for me?Tea Cozy. I had a list, it included someone who was able to meet me on my own ground, had something to offer me. I’m like a Fly-Fisherman, casting the Fly time and time again. Text-Fishing is probably a more accurate description.
Runnergirl PART 2 of my response:
For me it all boils down to the pain of letting go. I need a way to maintain my self-esteem while his flirtatious interest in me dwindles because I am not feeding it. I felt so special when he paid me attention when we first met a year ago.
I know what the answer is ..it is just hard… I need to have that sense of specialness within me already.
Thank you for your honest insight and support.
Hi Felicity,
I hope Natalie will allow my response but I understand if not because this is not a forum. In Natalie’s articles in the archives, she discusses how to go NC with a work colleague. Check out the archives. I think Natalie worked with the attached guy she was involved with and went NC. Keep your necessary work conduct 100% about work. It’s good you recognize that an attached guy can only offer casual (and a lot of hell) and are willing to opt out. Every day you work toward letting it go, the sooner you will be free to explore a healthy, co-piloted relationship. I felt special when he paid attention to me too. But, and it is a very big but, it really isn’t special when an attached guy is paying attention. Probably the best line for a potential OW is Natalie’s line: “…trying to use casual relationships as a back door route to a ‘proper’ relationship will backfire spectacularly”. Keep your head grounded in reality. Don’t fantasize or dream. OW’s rarely get upgraded. That’s the reality. Sounds like you are working on being upfront with yourself. That’s where it starts. Gracious, I wish I had Nat and BR before I spent two years lying to myself. Now, if an attached male hits on me, I just want to haul off and deck him. I won’t, of course but that’s what is in the bubble above my head. It isn’t special. Yup, you know the answer. It’s not the answer you want to hear but it’s what it is. Stay strong. Stay professional. And heal. Hugs!
I agree with this post. When you are not upfront about it being a casual encounter or encounters, yes it will blow up in your face. Somebody will get hurt. One Mr. Unavailable actually told me that he tells his flings up from that they are flings and that he has about three women on rotation and he still gets play and women who end up hurt because he doesn’t flip the script and magically end up falling in love with them. I also know one woman who does this too.
It’s one thing to not be up front with the other party because that is being deceitful and a coward…but what about the people who get hurt anyway because they let themselves fall into the trap they should have stayed out of in the first place when they knew the deal from the beginning?
Polly, Thank you!
I have been quite careful over the last year. But obviously not careful enough with my own feelings and thoughts and that is what I am dealing with now. I can’t imagine the pain encountered by people who get fully involved with UMs ..it is bad enough handling the day to day emotions. I am, I think, much further on than I was 6 months ago. I don’t fantasize and am brutal with myself if I start to think stupid things. Most importantly, I am learning to value my own stability more than the frisson of hinted at flirtation! Who knows perhaps I will be ready for the real deal this year! Felicity
Runnergirl,
I’ll check out those references to NC in a work context..thank you!
I find it so helpful to be reminded that attention from an UM means zilch.
The lie that it is special and to be held on to etc and that my attractiveness is to be measured by it … has hooked me until recently. I’ve been walking this emotional tightrope..wanting to be free but not to lose my sense of feminine affirmation. To be fair to the UM…my mind has probably made far more of this than even was there in the beginning. I sense that for him the flirty interest came and went rapidly..I made it into something more in my head. I honestly don’t think he’s even in that head space any more. He had a brief shot of attention adrenalin and that was enough. I wasn’t trying to escalate things or to build on them to lead to a full blown affair. I am looking forward to the co-pilot approach. I have never had that. I’m sure many can identify. I am working on being my own source of affirmation and self-respect. Yesterday I felt a bit low and then reminded myself that how I feel about myself has nothing to do with the crumbs of attention I receive from a guy who is not serious about me! Slow but sure….. !
@Felicity
Hi Felicity,
I want to thank you for sharing your story because I truly benefited from ‘listening to’ how you applied what you have learned to a real life situation.
So, thank you for helping me increase my understanding, and….
And, good on you for treating yourself with love, trust, care, and respect :o)
Cheers!
“Nope-ity nope, nope”…I do not believe in casual sex or casual relationships or casual arrangements or “f*king” around, or “messing around… about”…on the floor…on weekends…every other Tuesday…when he passes through town….
If it works for other people, good for them–“hop on one leg and do the bad thing….”
One day, I will meet a man who shares similar beliefs and values as I do, and that knows what he wants…is emotionally available AND mentally healthy…spiritually aware and in tune to his beliefs,…doesn’t need to use me as a coping mechanism, anxiety reducer, power booster, ego-strok-er, fantasy –er, or any other time-passing, reality escaping-self-medicating, psychological bull$hit –need–to–cope–with–his …or…%$%$ need.
….just one man…who has good self-esteem, self-love, etc. to share my life with who I will not be getting “high off of” because I no longer need a man to make me feel safe, protected, cherished, loved, validated, or any other reality escaping-self-medicating, psychological bull$hit –need–to–cope–with–my …or…%$%$ need.
But in the mean time, I’m living and loving ME and my life…there is so much more to life than a man, soooooo off the fence nowwww…………thank you Natalie and all of you who comment here–BR Community. :))
Grounded Fairy..how sweet of you to post.
Truth be told today the UM was careless of my feelings in a small way that let me in to the way he parcels out his energy and focus. It was a painful lesson that reinforced the fact that he no longer asks me questions about myself or looks fascinated by anything I say…that was the big pull initially…. the gloss has worn off and there ain’t much substance there now. Good to know. Hard to admit.
But the journey has to be taken. I hope this is the last time ever…!
I’m sorry if this is off topic, but could someone please help. I’m continuing no contact (just two weeks) and although I’ve been experiencing a roller coaster of emotions I’m feeling stronger. I’ve even found myself getting angry at times which is energising because before I was just a quivering helpless wreck. I don’t want to break NC, it’s empowering and I cannot go back. I just cannot go through it all again. My problem is I need a reference from him. I did try to tie up all the loose ends before going NC and I did get a reference from him. However, the position I’m applying for requires a reference directly from him to them so I cannot use the one I’ve got. I don’t want him to think it’s an excuse for me to contact him and I don’t want him to think I’m still there. I want to continue getting stronger and I don’t want to feel out of control again. How do I approach this so that I don’t feel as if I’m returning for more pain? I don’t want to go back I want to keep going forward.
Well if there is absolutely no other way than to get the reference then I would suggest perhaps sending him the request in the post and asking him to send it on direct to the person who it is for? Would that work? That way you don’t have to get into an email exchange. No point worrying about usual etiquette in these situations. Don’t feel you have to ask him nicely. Or if you just have to give his details to an employer / institution do that but don’t contact him yourself. He should then get the message that this is purely a professional thing He will either give the reference or not but asking nicely won’t help. Gives him too much power. If it is an academic reference is there anyone else you could ask? Sorry it is hard to know your situation but there are usually lots of options…remember it is about doing the thing that is best for you and weighing up the likely benefits vs consequences of contacting him again.
I’ve been in a very similar situation myself recently. In the end I didn’t need the reference but I was going to go for the send in the post option. I couldn’t stomach asking him for anything! And so horrible having to rely on them to tell someone else whether you are good enough!!
Thank’s Polly. The new university I’m applying to requires a reference directly from him. I need the reference to help me start up my life again. I’m hoping to get into a mid-year postgrad course. The affair and the loss of my baby has been so painful I haven’t been able to do anything since last November. He was my supervisor (a professor – how clichéd is that!) overlooking my thesis. We also worked on other research together. Because of the affair I can’t stay at my current uni and while he hasn’t come out with it directly he has dropped some very big hints that it would not be a good idea for me to continue my studies here. I know it would be best for me to move on but, I’m angry that he gets to stay and carry on with his life as if nothing has happened. On the other hand I brought it all on myself. Your idea about posting the request is brilliant, although I’m sure he will think it a bit strange that I didn’t email. Looking back I’m sad to say he managed me quite well via email and the thought of starting up an email exchange again fills me with dread. I’m sure it would undo all the work I’ve done so far. Thank you again Polly. I’ve said this before, but I’m so happy that I found this site. Reading the posts has kept me going for the past few weeks.
Lilly, It is a cliche because it happens so often. Profs are in a perfect position to find women because of their status and access to students and junior research staff. It frankly makes me sick the way so many of them abuse their positions and keep getting away with it. I may be wrong but I suspect that affairs with students are frowned upon if not a disciplinary offence but they are able to keep the women quiet because you feel special and chosen and need their validation even more because they are supervising your work. It is the perfect set up for them.
I also think it is a profession that attracts men who are emotionally stunted with great big fragile egos where they get to be measured on their intellectual ability on not as well rounded decent people.
I can’t quite remember the details of your story and whether the man is attached or whether it its because you are a student that he kept it secret but either way my guess is that he will play ball and give you the reference. It is not up to him whether you go quietly you must do what feels best for you. Only you is in control of what you do. But if you do leave then I would guess he will send off the reference and not cause any trouble. It doesn’t matter whether he finds it strange that you haven’t emailed. If it keeps him from coming anywhere near you and sends him that clear message then that’s what matters.
To those in a casual relationship , I would say that you have to go with your gut feeling. I am currently in a Friends With Benefits relationship, and I just decided that I’m just too awesome to be wasting my time with a pseudo-relationship, even if the chap I’m FWB with is someone I consider one of my closest friends. Ladies, ask yourself: Does he take you out on dates? Does he introduce you to his friends as his girl? Will he commit to you? If the answer is no to any of these questions, then I would start looking elsewhere for a suitable dating partner that will provide you with everything you’re seeking. It’s all fine and dandy if you’re happy with the current status of your FWB relationship. BUT you must know and realize that someone will get hurt. Either you or he will eventually find someone with whom you actually want to pursue a relationship, and I guarantee that the other party will not like this outcome. Sure, your FWB pal is irresistible right now. Sure, everything you two do together seems like you’re dating. But you surely you know if you’re in a relationship or not? I speak from my personal experience. My FWB showers me with attention and the sexual chemistry is definitely there, but I know in my heart of hearts that he does not want to date me. I’m a college-educated, successful career woman in my late-20?s. I’ve been told by many that I’m very beautiful, fit, funny, smart and nice — quite a catch, really — one that would make a great wife and mother. So why doesn’t my FWB want to date me? Exactly. WHY doesn’t he? After a lot of thinking, I’ve determined it’s truly not due to anything I’m doing or have done in the past. This is an issue that my FWB buddy has to work out on his own. His choice — he can man up and date me OR he can not and go about his business. Today, I’ve decided not to permit our FWB relationship to go any further. Honestly, I would love to have a relationship with him, but I value his friendship more — I choose the “friend” rather than the “benefits”. He will just have to deal with it. I plan on doing the “fade out” in the relationship and limiting contact in all avenues of communication (in-person, email, text, calls, etc.) Any sort of communication will be as friends and platonic. It will be hard to resist temptation, but I must do this for me. He may begin to pursue a relationship; he may not — either way, I will get my…
LL, I just wonder what made you change your mind about FWB situation? DO you start feel vulnerable towards your friend with benefits? You said that you want to be platonic and value relationship more than physical connection…I think you want to punish him? Sorry if I am wrong…
I knew from the beginning that I was in “booty call relationship”, even he stated that we are in relationship, we never introduced each other to our families and friends., I thought I would carry on f**** him till I meet someone decent. BUT what I realised lately, that being with him stopping me to meet other guys who can give me REAL love, care and attention.. I started NC, even we did not have argument, I do not want to punish him or something, I just want to get out and save myself from insanity.
Yes, it seems that I too have found myself in a FWB relationship..1st sexual encounter with him about 2 months ago after a 12 year platonic friendship. I have moved out of the city to semi rural location, now have no kids left at home and had a painful breakup last year. My FWB started visiting about 6 months ago and now wants to come to visit whenever I have days off from work! It is really starting to annoy me that when he visits for a few days (although he does bring me some fruit and vegies as an offering) we drive around in my car to bushwalks, beach etc, dine out at the club at my suggestion (we go dutch). I cook and he sits on the coach..this has been rinse repeat for the last 6 months as no initiation on his part for dating me or anything else for that matter except sweep up my leaves on occasion.
Yes the benefits part does create some expectation for romance but nothing is forthcoming so from this day forward I am saying NO to any further sexual liason with him and scaling back to friendship before the whole thing is completely ruined by my increasing resentment!
I do believe in what you say. There’s absolutely no substitute for being upfront. Doing so saves a lot of unnecessary emotions and baggages. I also think that doing so is a sign of respect.
I recently ended a relationship with a man who lied to me about being married, and having a child out of wedlock. He dropped a bomb on me, and it took, and is still is taking, me a lot of effort to deal with. The pain is immense, and the scar, I believe will be big and deep.
I walked away because I knew that is the only way for me to move on, and for me to gain a sense of confidence and trust in myself. It is painful, and there are time when I question myself if I made the right decision. However, I always look back to the fact that he did not give me the opportunity to make an informed decision. I thought I did …. especially, when I made it clear to him that I could not handle having a third party, and the fact that I asked him outright if he was married or if there someone else. He denied any and had the guts later on to assert that he was separated, and that he does not feel sorry for our relationship.
FACT is he lied, and he should be sorry about. And that includes being in a relationship that was based on a lie. IF I knew the facts early on, I could have made a different decision, and set the right boundaries. Unfortunately, he denied me of that opportunity, and in the process crushed my spirit … as well as created a mess of his married life. There is no substitute for being upfront, and I believe it’s the best way to go for people with significant histories to tell. IMHO, I feel that I am respected and treated more fairly if a man were 100% honest with me —- does not manner if it were 4 wives, 20 kids, and 3 other flings. I would have more respect for the man than I have for my ex.