One of the things that fascinates me about human nature, is our irrational desire and sometimes need to be liked by people who we ourselves do not like. We can be mad at a person and decide that we don’t like him/her but then feel wounded and even rejected when they don’t respond to our dislike in the way that we would prefer. It’s as if we need the validation of knowing that they’re negatively impacted by our opinion. We want them to chase after us for our ‘like’ and when they don’t or it even becomes apparent that the feeling is mutual, we feel compelled to engage them in some way that may generate the response we want or that will let us gain clarification about their position, or we quite simply feel rejected.
Why do we need people who we don’t like or who we’ve even called out on something, to like us? Why do we need them to be ‘visibly’ affected in some way? And actually, while we’re on the subject, why do we feel that we should be able to tell a person all about themselves and that they should take it ‘graciously’ and still want our approval?
And that’s really what’s at the heart of this; our relationship with disapproval.
When we want someone whom we don’t like, to like us and to even chase us down for our approval and prove us ‘wrong’ even if actually, our mind is made up, it’s because in some respects, it’s what we would do, but it’s also because when we feel disapproving of somebody, there is an illusion of power and control. When we focus on our dislike of a person, that’s about our perspective and of course, we’re making a judgement. We feel that we have very good grounds to dislike them – and this may well be true – but when we feel disliked or rejected (even though that may not actually be the case) by that very person, it feels unfair.
We don’t feel that they have a good reason to dislike us, or we may even perceive their response as a reflection of us being in the same or even worse light than them. We may even feel that they’re being petty and retaliating and that our feelings and opinions are being ‘invalidated’, when in fact, we are the ones who are doing that due to how we’re responding.
The thing is though, while in an ideal world, it would be great if people only had entirely rational and ‘justified’ reasons for not liking a person, in reality, we don’t always dislike / like people for entirely rational, reasonable, or even existing reasons. Let’s be real – wanting to be liked by someone whom we ourselves don’t like isn’t exactly rational or reasonable either.
We also need to recognise that a person not losing their minds or hunting us down for our approval, doesn’t mean that they don’t like us or that we’re being rejected. Not everything is about us and we can hardly disapprove of or even reject a person, and then hijack that and make it about us. Even if we don’t like a person, that shouldn’t stop us from empathising and recognising that even if that person isn’t making an obvious display, it doesn’t mean that our opinion of them hasn’t affected them in some way.
If we don’t like a person whether rightly or wrongly, it makes sense for that person not to continue engaging with us and to recognise boundaries – ours and theirs. As many of us know, making other people’s opinions or even validation of us as the basis of our self-esteem, is a quick slippery slope to losing our dignity. We have no right to expect that person should take ownership of our feelings and opinions about them. Their response also doesn’t mean that what we feel or think is ‘wrong’ – remember that if they know that you don’t like them, they will have their own way of dealing with rejection.
We also have to be careful of inadvertently or very consciously playing games. I’ve known of more than a few people who feel really in control when they think that you not knowing what the frick they’re angry with you about, is messing with your mind. Sometimes they’re not even really annoyed with you but on seeing that you’re stressing, they enjoy the attention and power.
If, however, when they finally decide to share their discontent and disapproval with you, not only are they way off base but you then choose to respect the nature of the situation and yourself, and in turn you step away from it, they suddenly feel out of control. They’re then bothered that you’re not bothered enough to continue making a drama out of it, or they’re upset that you’re now perceived as not liking them, even though they’ve just spent however long blanking you, moaning about you to anyone who will listen, or even casting you as an assclown in their imagination.
The difficulty in these situations is that when a person treats us in this way and it stems from an error of judgement or even paranoia, it can make for an incredibly awkward situation. They may decide that they want to be friends whereas we (when we’re the victim) may see what has happened as evidence of the fact that there are significant trust issues or that quite simply, we had thought that we were ‘cool’ with that person and it’s quite apparent that we were being actively disliked. We can’t just press the reset button and often, that’s exactly what they want.
One ex gave me a list of reasons as to why he felt that we weren’t suited and then called me out on the fact that I hadn’t been beating down his door. “If you’d truly loved me, you wouldn’t have just taken what I said lying down. You didn’t even fight for us?” Based on what he said, he didn’t like or love me, and there definitely was no “us” and this was one of those experiences that reminded me that we can’t just offload our irritation, dislike, or even contempt and then expect that person to ‘take it on the chin’.
The question we always have to ask ourselves in these situations is, Is it fair and reasonable to expect to be liked or even chased by people whom we don’t like?
It’s also a good time to check in with our feelings and thoughts and ensure that we are not letting ego and a misplaced desire for validation, outpace reality and healthy boundaries. We are in danger of opening ourselves up to a great deal of pain when we base our self-esteem and security on our ability to influence and control the uncontrollable. We are entitled to dislike people because quite simply, it’s impossible to be liked by everyone or for us to like everyone. It is. It doesn’t make us a ‘bad person’ for disliking somebody – it just makes us human – but we cross boundaries if we pursue their liking us, especially when our own position has not changed. If we don’t like someone, that’s our prerogative, but that decision also denotes that it’s time to move on – it makes sense for our energy to be directed to us and to people we like, not trying to influence and control the feelings and behaviour of people that we’ve already decided aren’t to our taste.
It’s too much for us to expect that the people we dislike should also validate us further once our feelings about them become apparent. It is our job to validate us and we can’t expect people to hang around and suck up to us so that we can feel better about our decision or so that we can have the leeway of changing our mind on their time. We don’t like that feeling of having to convince and audition for a person to see us as worthy. If you’re on the receiving end of this, don’t give that person the power to define you. Accepting that they don’t like you doesn’t mean that they are correct – it just means that you recognise that you need to adjust your behaviour accordingly and direct your energies towards people who value you.
Your thoughts?
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This topic has been on my mind all day then whammy here is a piping fresh blog post by none other than the amaaazing NML.
Amazing synchronicity. My day just got better!
Most everyone wants to be appreciated, respected, and liked. I suspect this need is stronger in work environments, where having friendly and supportive work colleagues is very important to our job and career success. Being “liked” and “reliance” seem to go together. We want to be both liked and needed – – – this need seems to grow less important as we get older, have accomplished more on our own, have – – perhaps – – greater financial independence, and more self-confidence. The more we “need” the approval of others, the more we will likely want to be liked.
This is a very good point. I have been guilty of this…realising that I didn’t like a Mr. Unavailable/assclown after about the second date, what did I do? Step away and focus on myself? No…I stuck around convincing myself there must be something wrong with me for not liking him. I saw more and more things I didn’t like, probably making it really obvious that I didn’t really like him. He tells me to leave him alone eventually and I go on a people pleasing mission, bending myself out of shape, trying to be someone he liked enough to want me in his life? Madness. Thank God I found this site otherwise I think I’d still be carrying on with the same stupidity!
This article came at a very good time for me. I had been hearing, through several co-workers, that a peer of mine(that I really liked), had been trash-talking me and my work, frequently, to other co-workers. I called her out on her behavior in an email and asked her to stop…I finally heard back from her last night.
According to her…she has never, in her 40 years of nursing, EVER bashed anyone etc,etc. She is now offended…angry…a victim of me…Instead of “eating our young”, as nurses often do, I am “eating the elderly”…ugh.
Tomorrow morning I will be seeing her at work and my stomach is churning a bit. I won’t be chasing her friendship. I won’t be rude either. I will be professional and go on with my work.
In the work environment, one often wants to be liked by those above you because it is in ones own self interest. Being disliked by someone who has power over you is problematic. Privately, I rarely dislike folks outright; more like there are people I want to be around and people I choose to avoid and some folk who cannot be forgiven. The latter generally earned their spot on the avoid list by being annoying, mentally ill, abusive, or disrespectful. My family was highly abusive; I did not hate them, I just wanted to be far away from them and never have to deal them ever again. The AC horribly humiliated me, publically in front of colleagues. I do not hate this person but really wish he’d have insight into his behavior and how much pain it causes others. We all, as social animals, want to be liked, accepted. We also often want control over what others feel about us. For myself, I have found that there are some folk who will dislike me, often intensely, for reasons unknown. My running coach last year hated me, it seemed although I was trying the hardest. It was as though everything about me was wrong. Ditto for some folk in this community who hardly know who I am. Maybe folks have a hard time with non White people, maybe its my politics, my outspokenness, the color of my socks. Who knows, and at this point in my life, tis not worth worrying about.
Hi Noquay,
Recently, I have been though a similar situation as the one you described with your coach. I had a very sad and annoying fall out with a very close female friend/climbing partner of mine last weekend. She is definitely a stronger climber than me (also much more experienced), I learned a lot from her in the past year that we have spent climbing together. Lately I have been training intensely (she is a bit lazy and does not train so much), which has resulted in some deserved improvement. However, my friend is constantly telling me that I should train less and that I am making myself too tired. She is a lovely friend but I do strongly sense that she is worried about how my improvement reflects on her own progress. Last weekend I was in really good shape but the day just turned out to be awful. She was not at all happy for me and started behaving incredibly rude and childish! So coming back to what you said about your coach not liking you despite you trying hard, I think one can often replace “despite” with “because of”. Anybody can try hard, you don’t need to be talented in order to put effort into something. There is no excuse, and I think some people have a very hard time when others invest time and effort into something they are passionate about, especially when they are missing out due to laziness and their own feelings of inadequacy.
I had a horrid boss once, so bad I nicknamed her, “The Devil Wears Payless.” She got so bad that she was starting to make me do clerical work, like filing her crap for her. I was a magazine editor, not her freakin’ filing clerk.
She had literally supervised and lost 13 employees in six years before I got there.
I had the Chief Operating Officer agree to be my boss instead, so armed with that solution I approached the CEO and asked for the change. He said that even executives like me didn’t have the right to pick and choose their bosses, and that I’d just have to accept it. He said I didnt get a choice in this matter.
Much to his shock, I gave notice of my resignation that moment.
I told him I loved my job as a magazine editor, but I refused to work for a bureaucratic paper shuffler who had yet to show competence in supervising ANYONE. And I said, “Mature adults always have a choice, Steve, and I choose not to work for a petty tyrant like her.”
Once I quit, The Devil was relieved of all her supervisory duties.
After I left, I heard through the grapevine her dislike for me was as intense as mine for her.
I guess when the rest of the staff started giving her the stink-eye for running me off, she assumed it was my fault therefore she hated me.
I went on to get a new job that paid more than $25,000 a year than I was making as an editor. Last I heard, she was still a loner disliked by all the remaining staff.
Now I consider her dislike for me a badge of honor. I was brave enough to tell the CEO she was a nightmare, and I cited her 13 failed supervisory tries before me as evidence.
Now if I like someone, it is not contingent on their liking me in return. Same with disliking someone.
It’s none of my business who likes me or not. I like me and my family and friends like me, and those are a wonderful gifts.
The rest can blow it out their tailpipes–they probably dislike lots of others besides me.
P.S. I bought myself a nice pair of Prada shoes to celebrate my new job.
I hope the ex boss’s Payless shoes are giving her hammer-toes and bunions. But at least she’s no longer walking all over people, cheap shoes or not.
Perfect timing again!
I ended first the friendship and then told my now ex-roommate that she had to leave, after repeated drama/lashing out/character assassination/boundary busting. After she left, she returned something she has taken with her, so I sent. her a text thanking her, and truly wishing her well, with love. No response. I’ve heard she’s hurting, and a couple of friends have ‘chosen sides’ and want nothing to do with me. That does hurt me.
Now that there’s distance my heart has thawed and I do feel love for her. It had to end but
(Oops! Accidentally pressed ‘publish’ on phone)
…I do want both of our hearts to heal. I felt like sending a card stating: I’m sorry for the part I played in this ending, forgive me for what i have and have not done, that i do have love for you, and I thank you for showing me the virtue of service. But…part of me wonders if I’m doing this because I want her to like me. I’ve already sent a loving text. I didn’t say sorry or forgive me. So I’ll need to meditate on this and find out where my intentions really lie. I know this: this would make my heart be at peace. I need to be truly detached from the outcome.
Yes, yes, yes. I have been dragging myself through this past term since the ‘leak’ of info that let me know my colleagues didn’t choose me for a job I wasn’t even sure I wanted. I’ve certainly had a bunch of ‘why did they not like me’ thoughts. But I didn’t much like them, either; in my version of the story they get disliked only because they were bitchy, self-important and condescending to me; had they liked me first I would have liked them, etc.. But in order to like me they would have had to have been very different people, and vice versa.
Right now I’m trying to come to terms with my two years of experience in this job, and the sense that I never really had a shot with these people, much as they dangled the prospect of the continuing position in front of me. That is, I’ve been feeling used.
Only about a month ago did I find out who did get the job when the guy who was picked posted about it on Facebook. This is a dude who I met in my previous town, when I was dating an AC, who sidled up to my then-AC-boyfriend and warned him that their boss was onto the fact (that I hadn’t fully admitted yet) that my bf was interested in sleeping with his students. It was a wink, wink, try to be more discreet old chap type conversation, and left me with an impression of him as a predatory douche.
Once the FB word was out, colleagues from around this small town I’m now in came out of the woodwork to declare their disgust. Apparently this dude, who has an ‘open relationship’ with his wife (they have two kids), got into a relationship with a colleague, and hit her, and then wrote about it, and then read a story “about hitting a woman while having sex” (as my student put it) to a crowd of people who knew the story was autobiographical. There are folks here who want nothing to do with him.
THIS is who they hired over me. A predatory, douchey tall white male (the fifth male hire in a row by my Head), with no PhD and none of the genre expertise they asked for in the job description. I thought for a while that the committee who did the hiring must not have known what went on re the abuse of a former colleague, but in fact more than one person on the committee DID know. The bitchy, gossipy condescending one, the one I got bad spideys from from the beginning, the one that never liked me, is the good friend of abusive boy and would have been his champion, probably denying knowledge of any alleged abuse, but there were others who knew, I found out only recently. My Head finally let me know I didn’t get the job with an impersonal two-line email with the wrong header on it, telling me that if I had any questions to take it up with the new Head. He and bitchy queen colleague no longer make eye contact with me.
The impact of realizing that what I thought was an un-self-aware boys’ club is in fact a very much self-aware, misogynist and invite-abusers-into-our-department-to-teach-our-students-because-he’s-boys’-club-material has really deflated me. I feel like I’m going through yet another post-break-up process of realizing, like I’ve done post-ACs, that these people never meant me any good to begin with, it’s not like I failed to keep their good favour, it’s not like they gradually realized I was too bitchy/needy/critical/outspoken etc.
It has been somewhat demoralizing to think that such groups will never like a person like me; that they could smile and hire me having absolutely no intention of taking me seriously, no matter that I outperformed many of their full-time faculty on a number of counts these past two years. The resulting reevaluation of my motivations in life have me thinking a lot about who I have been trying to “make like me” in all aspects of my life. As a writer, particularly, I think I have been trying to write the poem or the story that would finally make bigots see sense. Kind of the writer version of “trying to right the wrongs of the past,” as Natalie would put it.
So these days I’m watching a lot of Toni Morrison youtube videos where she talks about editing Black writers to write for themselves, rather than to a white audience, and how despite the pressure to say and do otherwise, she insists that she writes first for other Black people. As a mixed-race person it’s not so easy for me to just say, I write for X people, but I can realize that in my own way I have been trying to get a certain kind of person, a racist person, to see the light through my work, instead of writing to and for people who might not need to be crowbarred into valuing my voice and my perspective.
Mags
Yep, sounds like a wonderful colleague. Nope, some folks never see the light and there ain’t much one can do. I still have colleagues who truly think I got my job for being female and mixed race though I never fill out the affirmative action forms and am degreed in 3, count em, 3 separate areas of science. Screw em.
Magnolia: I think you dodged a giant bullet. Wherever you’ll end up working, I’m sure you will be way, way more at peace than at that other f*cked up place. Considering the nature of these people, I think they might have triggered some very bad memories from your own past.
“As a mixed-race person it’s not so easy for me to just say, I write for X people”. Why? There are so many mixed-race people in the world. Why shouldn’t you picture all of them as your audience? You are who you are.
Mags,
I’m sorry, but thank GOD you didn’t get that job. These are not your people. I don’t mean race, either, I mean a certain quality of dignity and integrity that they obviously lack. They will be like vicious wolves attacking each other at some point, based on what you said about how they’ve conducted their lives up to this point. It’s like wolves who can “smell” a wolf who is not their own kind and then shun that wolf. You’re not their kind. And that’s a good thing. You will find your pack, I believe.
Thanks noquay, rev, ellyb. I should say that I have made friends here, they’re just not the ones in power (i.e. the ‘wrong’ clique), and that there are those within my department who have said they have changed their opinion of certain people who ran the hire. There is another sessional who is as peeved as me about her own situation. It’s amazing how the dearth of academic jobs makes some folk treat you like you should be grateful for sessional pay crumbs and happy to work seventy-hour weeks while trying to apply for other work.
Maybe this is the latest, best thing to happen to me. For so long I’ve based my identity on doing well at school, getting the scholarship, the job, etc but not necessarily being totally happy (none of it worth it without friends and family around), and also haven’t been pursuing my fiction writing dreams. Now, in a few months, I’ll be out of work with no prospects lined up. I don’t know if I’ll ever get to be in front of a class again, though I do like teaching undergrad creative writing a lot.
This is my moment to move back to my neck of the woods (Toronto), and try to figure out life based on what I like and based on balance, not based on prestige. It’s freaking scary but somehow feels like the right thing. Everything that Nat has said about relationships in her 12 core boundaries has applied to this job in this small town:
“When a man is interested, you are in no doubt about their interest and they don’t run the risk of losing you.” – They hired me, but then made me wonder constantly if they liked me enough to keep me, seemed to not give a rat’s if I left but at the same time dangled the possibility of long-term employment. Future-fakers much? Mind you, I was doing the same, thinking, I hate this town and maybe if I get the job here I can leave in three or four years.
“Start as you mean to go on.” – I didn’t like the town to start, didn’t like it in the middle and will be glad to put it the rearview mirror when I go. I kept waiting to suddenly feel good about something I had strong negative vibes about from the beginning. I could have waited forever.
In fact, I could probably find a parallel for every boundary Nat lists. If I’ve spent my life making sure I have a decent career so that I’m never dependent on a guy and never forced to stay because I have no skills, what’s the point if I just reproduce feeling used and taken for granted by my workplace? Not that I knew I’d feel that way going in. I waited for people to unfold and they did. Now I’ve learned a lot, gotten a lot out of being here, but this relationship is about to come to an end. #stepintotheunknown
Magnolia,
Why are you making this all about YOU and your worth?
Maybe they did like your work, but they felt the other candidate was a better fit. Why do you feel the need to attack the other person who got the job? Why do you feel so entitled to the position? Why can’t you just be disappointed that you didn’t get the job and take care of your emtional needs, instead of spinning all of this nonsense?
You may be right, Stuck. There were other candidates that were just as or more qualified to whom if I had lost the competition, I could feel gracious about it, understanding that they had gone with ‘good fit’ on any number of professional levels. I don’t feel entitled to the job, I feel clearly more qualified and that those qualifications were ignored. For what it’s worth, more than one person has suggested there are grounds for a grievance, which I have no desire to put myself through, though I do wish guys being blatantly cronyish could at least meet some resistance.
It’s knowing that the guy they chose has a history of abuse, that they knew about but clearly don’t care about, that tells me a lot about what kind of fit they valued. When I think of this guy in front of my female students, discussing what he will think is good writing, I feel grossed out. And like I said, without my knowledge, other people who have had work interactions with this guy have written a letter to my department expressing their outrage. I’m not sure how describing that situation counts as an attack, but I sure do remember how when I used to talk about the hurtful things that an AC did, how they would say I was “attacking” them.
In any case I wrote this story under a post that asks for thoughts around what we’re here to talk about, talking through the situation of wanting to be liked by those that don’t like us. Your response suggests that my feelings are invalid, and that I have no right to feel as I do, and that I’ve written “nonsense.” I don’t know if you just didn’t read what I wrote carefully, if I didn’t give enough background for you to try to put yourself in my shoes, but I think there’s a world of difference between getting passed over for a job for someone else who is better at what they do, or qualified but fits the culture better (if the culture isn’t toxic), than getting passed over by someone less qualified because they fit a toxic culture.
If I were to come on here and describe a romantic relationship as toxic, and be upset by some dude who had me play gf for him for two years, and then only until he decided to hitch up with someone more interested in supporting his bs, I assume you wouldn’t call my story nonsense. I guess the analogy would be that I’m going on and on about the new gf he picked, which I agree would be unproductive. Except that he would have had to have picked a new boyfriend instead, another guy who liked to bash women, in order for the analogy to work, and it’s that part that I’m having some issue wrapping my head around.
In any case, Stuck, I agree that moving on is the thing to do. I did think that I could write out my feelings here in a safe place. You calling me “entitled” for doing so feels pretty shitty.
Magnolia: I’m glad you replied this way yourself. I had the same thoughts, but I somehow didn’t know how to put them into words.
Kudos to you! Please don’t allow anyone else to deny your perceptions.
You’ve caught me out again Nats ! Nearly 5 years on …. I blank him and he realises and I feel really strong …. Then something happens , I weaken , I text !!!! He replies !!!!! OMG …. then he ignore me ! It’s gotto stop …. But everything you say is right …. Thanks again hunni x
Great post Nat – this topic, accepting yourself and not worrying about the approval/judgement of others, has been discussed heavily in the threads of the last few posts.
Those who took part should take the time to read this post several times over 😉
It is only human to want to be accepted by “the tribe”. But if you place your need for validation in the hands of those unwilling or incapable of giving it, you will inevitably feel cr*p about your self.
When their “approval” is not given or taken away you spiral into crisis/self-doubt/self-loathing…
Also – those people, will not be afraid to use that power to make your self esteem traverse from misery to OK over, and over again.
It’s also about boundaries. As someone who fell prey to people pleasing, I can see how desperately seeking the approval of others was about trying to validate myself.
As crazy at it sounds, even though I didn’t like the ex EUM/AC anymore it did feel good when he kept calling and hounding me. That may have been just the karma of how he treated me coming to roost.
What I didn’t understand about him is why he did all the mean things he did because he wanted me to go away because he wanted to date someone else, then when I left him alone he comes back! This is the mind games part! This was the difference between him and me! When I stop liking him, I just moved on and never came back! When I’m done, I’m done! That way there is no misunderstanding about my actions and words. One thing about me if I don’t like you, you will know. I’m not rude, but I don’t engage with people I don’t care for.
THIS:
“The difficulty in these situations is that when a person treats us in this way and it stems from an error of judgement or even paranoia, it can make for an incredibly awkward situation. They may decide that they want to be friends whereas we (when we’re the victim) may see what has happened as evidence of the fact that there are significant trust issues or that quite simply, we had thought that we were ‘cool’ with that person and it’s quite apparent that we were being actively disliked. We can’t just press the reset button and often, that’s exactly what they want.”
This is the perfect post for what I’m feeling in the aftermath of Mr. Bus Driver coming over and knocking on my door after a year and a month NC. The biggest reason why I didn’t answer the door that day was for my protection and raising the biggest boundaries I’ve ever raised in my life. But…..I have to admit that it felt pretty darn good to think that my opinion of him and his actions may be affecting him, that maybe he’s a bit paranoid that I’m no longer engaging like I used to and that maybe his cake supply from his roommate/girlfriend wtf ever is dwindling. So yeah, I’m human and I do not apologize that this possibility gives my ego a much needed boost. LOL Yeah, I do think he was just trying to push the reset button. Ain’t. Gonna. Happen.
I had gone through ALL the possible scenarios as to why he came over, one of them being to apologize (phpthfphtphf…yeah right. Can we say frilly unicorn fantasy??) and so perhaps I had missed an opportunity for reconciliation, blah blah blah. But then I thought, why would I want to even hear it? Would it be sincere, or would it be just a way for him to try to get back in my good graces so that he wouldn’t feel like the craphole human being he really is? I recently found out this guy had gone on some service trip with local college kids to Louisiana. I thought….seriously??? That means some douche(s) in his life gave him character references to be a team leader. Plus, this trip obviously included young college women. I can’t imagine a guy pushing 60 having a massive character transplant overnight, so I figure it’s just another way to manage his image, like he’s this fake Norman Rockwell family man or something and he needs to prove this to himself and whoever can and will see. Perhaps he really is trying to improve his image and even his character…I dont’ know. But I will always see him as a man who had no problem cheating on and going behind the backs of his entire family, including the woman he lives with. Why do I judge him so harshly?? Besides being the way he was with me, barely a day and a half after he knocked on my door (expecting who knows what, right?) he’s lovebombing his girlfriend – who was in Florida at the time he came over – all over Facebook. I may never know the real reason why he came over. But I know I made the right choice by ignoring him, if only because I remember why he would come over in the past. I’m not giving him the satisfaction of a good character reference from me. He will not reset any buttons. Whatever he’s feeling about the situation, he has to grow up and deal with the consequences. He’s almost 60. It’s about time.
Kayakgirl,
Its funny because I didn’t do NC, I just disappeared! I didn’t hate him, I just couldn’t understand why he couldn’t just leave well enough alone, especially since he was getting married! I don’t know what he wanted other than to get an ego boost and instead in should have been embarrassed. Because not only did he not get to see me, but I also congratulated him even though I thought he was an asshole for doing what he did. Don’t get me wrong, I wasn’t jealous in the least bit, I just didn’t understand why someone would do something that would cause you to have disdain for them, but want you to like them at the same time! It’s as if they are working against their own interest.
He was who he was and while he wasn’t the antichrist, I just didn’t like him as a person nor did I respect him. But I also would never do some hurtful things to him (even though he deserved it) just to make myself feel better. That’s why I walked away. I guess he just couldn’t accept that I just didn’t care for him because of his behavior and just wanted to look like the victim.
I am dealing with precisely this situation now, as I have reached the point of no return. After *years* (how dreadful to confess!) of ups and downs, at the latest low point I realise I have no love left for the AC, no desire to patch things over and make up; I no longer like him at all. And yet! I cannot leave well enough alone. I expect contrition, I think. I want him to acknowledge I have every reason to dislike him. What can possibly come of this? He is never contrite; and even if he was, nothing would change.
Yet I am struggling so hard with this. It is so hard to get off the carousel of my own obsessional thinking about this man. Is it a need to be right? To be justified? Am I expecting him to validate the curdling of my love for him into dislike?
Anger is an energy, so are contempt and dislike. I know I need to reorient my energies towards good and positive ends, towards myself, but the force of my dislike is keeping me trapped.
I would love to hear people’s strategies for detaching from these negative, outward-focused fixations.
“I think. I want him to acknowledge I have every reason to dislike him. ”
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/seeking-validation-understanding-in-your-poor-relationships-part-one/
I think this is what happens when we want to be friends with our ex-ACs. After he said we “didn’t mesh” and wanted to break up, I bent over backwards to “be the bigger person” and reach out the hand of friendship to someone who didn’t value me, was dishonest, and betrayed me. Why? I guess I still wanted him to like me. Fortunately, I don’t do this anymore, thanks to Natalie and this blog. No more ACs for me, and no more friendships with people who treat me poorly!
I’ve read this post a few times, and it has allowed me to reflect on how we can surrender the need to accept and validate ourselves to others. This is very much the heart of my struggle, grief and awakening.
I know with clarity I’ve people pleased in the past. Too many times I remained silent when I should have spoken up. In doing so not only compromised myself but allowed my boundaries to be pushed or transgressed. It is a mistake from the past I hope not repeat in any of my relationships. It’s what BR is teaching me, as is my counsellor and good friends.
My last relationship, Miss Unavailable, ended almost three months ago. Even though I formally ended it, it was her acts of relationship sabotage that brought it to the brink of destruction. She lacked the courage, dignity and maturity to end it – rather than shoulder the guilt, she passed the responsibility to me.
In addition to the “You deserve better speech” (how I recoil in disgust now reflecting on that) the worst thing this Miss Unavailable (Miss U) was to apply awful labels to my child.
In sharing, I’m finally expelling the toxin from my soul.
In the final weeks Miss U started labelling my daughter a “spoiled brat”, “spiritually obese” and host of other things. At first I was taken a back. I couldn’t believe it. Not only did I trust this person, but they actually (wait for it) ***work with children***
My child is a delightful girl, no different than any other child her age. Just yesterday she spent the whole day in the house of another family at my school. When I picked her up the mother said “She is wonderful, she is such a credit to you and her mother.” Others have complimented her in the same way. Not that this validation is necessary, but such feedback acts as a reality check – and a welcome one.
It has taken some time, effort and enormous self reflection to get over what Miss Unavailable did. In the worst moments after the split I actually thought “Is there something wrong with my child?”
But I can now see how in retrospect she struggled to form a bond with her. She projected her own failure onto a child. I can think of nothing worse than that.
The night of the split the conversation went such:
Me: “You’ve called my child these things – you don’t know my child”
Miss U: “She is, I’m an expert” (remember her working with children?)
Me: “Everything you’ve said about my child is terrible…”
Miss U: [silence followed by her bowing her head to look away]
Me: “You don’t know my child.”
Miss U: “She is… [something, something, something awful]”
Within five minutes I ended it.
I didn’t need to satisfy the opinion of this person. They had no respect for me or my child. Therefore the need to make them like me, or my child, was gone.
We were actually supposed to be away that weekend, a holiday planned in advance months before. But we both still met there to talk. Even though it was late, I made myself a coffee to freshen up and told Miss U I was going.
It was late, and I had a five hour drive before me. But I didn’t care. I had to leave. I know now it was because it was not “safe” for me to be in the presence of this person. She had crossed a boundary. I got into my car and drove home. I got home in the early morning, collapsed into bed. I felt safe.
The next morning I cleared out everything of hers. Over the next days I threw away everything that was a reminder. I cleared out my email. I had to purge my home and world of any reminders.
It’s been three months and I’ve finally recovered from those words. The mixture of anger, confusion, sense of betrayal. Yes, I broke NC in the early weeks – I was confused, and thought “Perhaps if we talked we could sort it out? Maybe she would understand… it could be OK! Right! Right?”
But there is no pleasing or understanding such people.
In trying to understand what had happened I found BR. Really, Nat if you read these words – thank you. Like you have for so many others here, I feel I’ve been given the gift of a better understanding of myself and relationships.
Mike,
How terrible, to have called your daughter those names! And really, what the feck is spiritually obese?
I think this was probably some “passive”aggressive attack from her part. She knows she damages you the most when she slashes out to your child, so that is why she did it. I would not for one second take it seriously. It just shows what an awful person this miss unavailable is. And what a wonderful father you must be for your daughter. You´re lucky she has no influence any more on both of you!
A so called grown mature adult attacking a child in that manner, your child, is beyond contempt. What a bully and a coward for picking on those who are weaker, smaller and aren’t able to fight for or stand up for themselves.
And this woman works with children? That in itself is a troubling area of concern for all the other children under her so called care.
After that verbal attack on your daughter, its a no brainer that you had to break it off. There is absolutely no point in continuing in a relationship with someone like that.
You and your daughter both dodged that particular relationship bullet. When you have disrespect and verbal abuse, it doesn’t get better, it just gets worse if you stick around.
Mike,
Over time – after repressing my anger for years – I have learned when to use my temper. Reading over the names Miss U flung at your daughter has ticked me off. There is no mercy in my eyes for immature or unkind remarks of an adult toward a child. You are a caring father who did his best to *protect* his daughter from a *spiritually odious* person.
Did you say in earlier posts that Miss U expressed an interest in Buddhism? Seriously? Compassion is the cornerstone of Buddhism – something that is clearly missing from her shitty spiritual toolbox. Instead of judging your daughter, U should be looking at the fact that she is spiritually anemic – bankrupt & lost. I rarely stoop to insults but I do not feel the need to be *nice* to bullies like U. I care not a damn about her reasons for applying names to your daughter. Name-calling is unacceptable.
Kudos to you, Mike. You stood up for your daughter. Thanks for sharing your story. Two years is not a short time to spend with someone. The progress you have made in only three months is amazing. Purging the poison day by day is good. Thanks also for including the general script of your split-up conversation. It confirms my belief that *communicating* with people like U is no different than beating your head against a wall. I found not an ounce of compassion – respect or empathy – in her responses. Far from revising her outlook, admitting her mistake, or owning her fears & insecurities, she indulged in the following: digging her heels, using her expertise to intimidate & shut you up, stone-walling you, and insisting on being right. U is a churl and a bully – winning was more important to her than saving a two-year-long relationship. The script you shared, Mike, also confirms my belief that *conflict* – a difficult conversation or disagreement – is the best indicator of the true colors of a person because it shows the extent to which a person is capable of caring for you and putting themselves in your shoes. Conflict also reveals our values. You value your daughter – she did not. So instead of demanding or begging for respect, you rightly walked away from the Big Baby Bully.
My two siblings and I pay for all our parental expenses – including their hefty mortgage. Since Mum and Dad are financially dependent on us, I am not surprised that they have learned to show us the respect and care that was long due to us. Sometimes I feel sorry for the financial hardships they faced. Sometimes I feel it is too late to repair the emotional damage they did by raising us in their unhappy & unstable marriage. Over the past few years, I have come to appreciate the attempts they have made to earn our trust and respect. But nothing changes the fact that my siblings and I were raised by *ill-equipped* parents – to put it as euphemistically as possible.
No matter what I did or achieved, I was never *good enough* for my mother. She either neglected us or criticized us. She is not a monster but she failed us as a mother because she bullied us more than she nurtured us. Over the pettiest things, she picked fights. How did Dad respond when she called us names and shouted at us? He retreated to his room, to his TV, sipping on gin or whiskey. Or Dad expected us to adopt his people-pleasing tactics: (1) pretend nothing hurtful happened, (2) stifle your anger,(3) remain silent, (4) obey her commands, (5) put her needs before your own. Dad allowed Mum to blame and shame him for not earning enough money to provide for himself and us. Instead of finding solutions to their financial problems my parents spent most of their time quarreling with one another – and neglecting us. They were not team players.
I care for my parents – and appreciate that they are trying their best not to disappoint or disrespect us anymore. I do not blame them for *my* poor relationship choices. But I understand that just as I had learned to survive on their crumbs of attention, so too I accepted crumbs from the people I made the mistake of dating. Unlike my father, I managed to become my own caretaker and provider. But like him, I learned to *act* like a people-pleaser in my personal relationships. However long it takes, I am going to break that pattern rather than rush into another relationship.
Unlike you Mike, my father – despite his best intentions – did not act as a stable provider or protector in our lives. I am so glad that your daughter has your care and support. You should be proud of her and yourself.
Having written this comment, I can feel my anger is subsiding. Detoxifying.
Foodnote: Please see, the “U” in my comment is shorthand for Miss U. She does not deserve the dignity of the word “Miss”. So I shortened it to a pithy U. The “U” is not referring to “You” Mike.
Lol, I shall adopt “U” as well 😉
Thank you Lilla, Pauline and Nigella.
Your replies are very much appreciated and welcome. I knew straight away my response was instinctual – I had to remove myself from an ugul situation.
As the fog clears, I’m starting to take pride in actions. I protected myself, and just as if not more so, my daughter.
The thought that flashed across my mind was “How long till Miss U says those words to my child?”
Nigella, thanks for sharing your story. Your story has a familiar ring to it. We’ve discussed it in previous posts, but like you and others here my parents did not nurture. Rather they bullied, denied affection and parental acceptance. As a father that is the one mistake I vowed I’d never make. I can get angry about the past too. But that is ok. As long as we learn from it.
I was speaking to a friend yesterday, and they asked me how I was. My reply was: “Sometimes it is good to have your heart broken. It can be a teaching moment.” So in a strange way I’m thankful for the lessons Miss Unavailable has taught me.
Mike,
Your story is similar to mine.
I am divorced and I was in a relationship with an emotional unavailable man for seven years.
His behaviour was always passive-agressive and he kept one foot in the relationship and the other in his own single life. I was always trying to please him and make him wanting me. He was trying to make me feel that my two kids are the problem for owr relationship not evolving. Though he was the one that wanted to meet my kids and he desperately wanted to prove that he is accepted by them, when there were problems with my kids (the usual stuff faced during their growing) he kept saying that i could not teach them manners. Of course, each time we was going away. And, of course each time he was coming back trying to start all over.
He is 47 and he has no kids of his own. How can he be so damn sure what is good for my kids? He is not an expert. But he used the case that i have two children as an excuse to keep himself in a safe distance.
We finished this relationship 8 motnths ago after an incident with my daughter. Despite all these bad things that he kept telling about the way that i was growing my kids (he said i was too democratic with them, that they have phsycological problems and need to visit a therapist – I wonder if it is really so bad to be supportive to your kids and not punishing them all the time), at the beginning of our breakup, we were trying to find a way to get back together. We finally visited a counselor. She told him that in order to be with me he has to love my kids and support them under any circumstances. My ex said that he cannot be supportive under some difficult conditions because he is not their father.
Since then (5 months) i remain NC. I am trying to figure out how obsessed i was by this man. He is not such a good person to be with me and my kids. I deserve better. He tries to push himself in again, but now I am much wiser and i am protecting me. He can’t imagine that he cannot control me anymore and that i don’t want him in my life anymore. He feels rejected, even if he has rejected me several times. He doesn’t realy want me but he keeps busting my boundaries in order to prove himself.
He badly needs a therapist and he tried to project the problems from his difficult childhood on my kids. I won’t let him anymore.
Mike, please protect yourself and your kid from all these damaged people who think that the kids are the problem in their relationships. They themselves have many problems but we are not going to solve their problems. Our kids need love and really good people around them.
I wish you to be strong and happy.
P.S. Natalie, this site is really a treasure to me!! Thank you so much!!!
Elen, thank you so much for sharing your story. I was struck by the incredible similarities in what you had to say. During the last few days I’ve really begum to feel the “hold” this person had on me slipping.
It was talking with others, but also reading some of the words here. Yes, my kid would “play up” on occasion but in the way children do.
These words of yours: “We finally visited a counselor. She told him that in order to be with me he has to love my kids and support them under any circumstances.”
Thank you for sharing that. That is what I would do for the person I loved. I’ve been thinking that very thought this past week.
What would I do if the situation was reversed? I would sit down and talk with my partner.
Mike, Like others here, your ex’s words to you and behaviour towards you in regard to your 5 year old (?) little girl trigger strong feelings in me. It makes me very angry and I imagine that it must have been shocking and extremely painful to hear those words coming out of her mouth. The mouth of someone you had decided to trust and try and build an intimate relationship with.
It’s great that you are taking time to work through the fallout of the relationship, painful as it is. Wishing you all the best.
Sometimes I read your posts and I think “Yeh, I F*^% up”. Oh well, I guess having the insight is the first step in progress.
Mike from Oz
Good job on the detox. After the AC, the first thing I did upon arriving home was to smudge my house with sage, that’s how we purify things. I also made a pile of everything he wrote to me and burned it. On the one year anniversary of his very public humiliation of me I went to the place where it had occurred (previously one of my favorite escape towns) and ritually took the place back and promised myself “never again”. I have kept that promise though I cannot drive away from my AC because we work at the same place. Being alone for the rest of my life, eventually bailing from society all together now seems a likely future. I refuse to settle for damaged, addicted overages children or another cheater, I deserve so much more. Likewise I cannot imagine using a child in that way. Among other things, that woman is a gd coward. I too am not someone who bonds well with kids; too old and not family oriented but I have the cojones to recognize that and act accordingly which includes treating all children with respect rather than calling them awful names. Luckily ms. EUs very toxic influence is no longer a part of your child’s life.
Thanks for your comments Noquay,
And yes – in the future I will go back to certain places and “reclaim” them. For now I avoid – and find new places. Especially coffee places, I’m treating myself by exploring new places to sit, enjoy coffee and read.
Also re the kids thing, you’ve been honestwith yourself – good on you!
I would have respected her more – and it would have been the kinder thing to do – if Miss Unavailable (“U”) was honest.
“I’m sorry, I thought I could do this but I can’t.”
Would it have hurt? Sure. Would I still be grieving – angry even? Of course. But in trying to shift the blame and alleviate themselves of guilt, it made it that much worse and less cleaner than it could have been.
Before I met and got involved with “U” I recall a lovely coffee date with a woman.
We hit it off, chatted for several hours and seemed to think each other interesting.
But she said to me at the end of the coffee date “I need to think about the kids thing, if that’s what I want.”
I’d spoken about how important my role as a father was – she got it. A few days later she emailed me to say she enjoyed my company, but having given it thought she understood herself enough to say it is not how she imagined her future. The email was polite, honest and respectful. I replied by thanking her for her time, said she was obviously a lovely woman and wished her the best. Honest, respectful – good boundaries on her part. No hard feelings on mine.
I’ve thought about that a bit of late, recalling that was a good role model of an individual knowing what they wanted – or didn’t.
So now it’s my turn to be really clear on boundaries, and be even more upfront about those when I think about dating/relationships in the future.
Thanks for comments.
I like the topic of this post, but I feel that in order to make it even more pertinent to my situation, I would rephrase it in this manner: Why do I want to be liked by everyone in the universe, including people I hate, dislike, or don’t care about?
I struggled for most of March, but I’m starting to feel a bit better. I’ve been having decent days, where I feel pretty happy and enjoy my own company. However, every night around ten pm (now), I begin to feel like a massive loser and failure. It feels like an alien invasion–I’ll be cheerful and happy and looking forward to summer break from teaching, and then bam, the UFO lands in my apartment and abducts me for the night. I have horrible nightmares about the guy I used to know. I have nightmares about school. My therapist told me that I need to confront my problems directly, and then the late night feelings of failure will abate. I’m trying.
It feels like an alien abduction, but I know in reality, it’s not. The feeling comes from somewhere inside of me. I just need to find the source.
Nat,
I am in a playful mood and thrilled to hear you are “starting to feel a bit better”. Congrats for making progress. Give yourself credit for the small steps & for the days you enjoy being on your own instead of pretending to be *fine* in the company of a disinterested or disapproving jerk. The time you spend *solving* your problems is going to reap you rewards somewhere down the road. Take the bull by the horns. Look him straight in the eye and tell Mr. Bull, “I am not afraid of you. You cannot bully me anymore. I am not a failure. I am not afraid of you.”
Side note from the animal-advocate in me: I like bulls but not bullies. Like you, Nat, I need to confront some things. I tend to think of my problems as bullies. Before anything else, I need to quit fearing them or hiding from them. On a sheet of paper, it helps to identify each bully in ascending order of scariness. First the mini bullies can be tackled. Then – as one feels more confident – it makes sense to confront the biggest and baddest ones. I am certain you can handle the bullies in your life – as well as the aliens. Yes you can.
Like you I sometimes struggle to feel relaxed at nighttime. I am not plagued by nightmares involving the Liar. But I am troubled by my daydreams of the auditor: if only she were a bit less alluring. Dammit. The difference does not matter – nightmares or daydreams – one has to tame their errant thoughts. Fight the aliens. I am mixing genres here but I think once you tap into your inner Skywalker then you will be able to battle those late-night alien intruders. Chivalry is a comforting concept but at least for now there is no knight in shining armor stepping forward to protect or fight for us.
So you and I need to be our own *protectors* rather than people-pleasers. You are right: you “need to find the source” of your feelings of failure. But you can also tap into that inner force – the force that confronts problems, bullies, nightmares, aliens, and assclowns and says: “I am not afraid of you”. Get in touch with the Jedi in you. Fight for yourself.
Nigella,
What a beautiful, funny, and sharp response. Thank you, thank you, thank you. It is eleven pm where I live now and I’ve seen a couple aliens tonight, but I’ve decided to take your advice and confront them, let them know that I’m not afraid. I may not be a Luke Skywalker, but growing up, I loved the X Files, and I thought Mulder was the coolest guy ever. So I think I’ll tap into my inner Mulder and conduct an investigation into these aliens.
Good luck with your daymares about the alluring auditor. Well, a little eye candy never hurts, as long as you know your boundaries. That’s what really counts, knowing your limits and vulnerabilities and accepting them. I would have a very difficult time if there were an attractive person at work! Maybe the universe is doing me a favour…
And yes, you’re totally right about becoming our own protectors. Even in my lowest, saddest moments earlier this year, I felt this incredible feeling of safety that I haven’t felt in a long time after beginning NC. I think that our feelings are complicated, and that it is possible to suffer from heartache, loss, etc, and still feel strong and true to ourselves. These days, I often have dual feelings–sadness and peace. The feelings sort of melt into each other in a pleasant way…
Nat,
Thanks for adding the name of Mulder to my shamefully understocked repertoire of pop culture. I am sure your inner Mulder can nab one by one all those nightly aliens that have been disrupting your peace and sleep.
So far I have neither encouraged nor rebuffed the extracurricular interest shown to me by the alluring auditor. Physically, I am maintaining at least two feet of distance between us. Conversationally, I am sticking to wondrously boring business talk involving her expert use of excel sheets. Mentally, time permitting, I am constructing blazons on superficial yet seductive things like her dark tresses & gazelle-like eyes that I *prudently* appreciate from two feet of distance.
Thanks for the reminder. Sticking to boundaries feels good – better late than never to have learned this lesson. I *like* her & I like that she *likes* me (and dalliances on the job might work for others) but I *dislike* the idea of pursuing or being pursued by someone at the workplace. Setting myself up for drama & disappointment is not on the agenda for 2014.
Last year, during this time, the Liar suddenly started to distance himself from me. I felt confused, disrespected, and rejected. In two weeks it will be exactly one year of no contact with him. Thanks to the advice and support of BR posters, I somehow stayed afloat. Instead of pining for him or blaming myself for the end of the relationship, I am now able to feel lighter, freer, and happier. “Everything flows and nothings stays”.
It will take time and effort, Nat, but I hope more and more feelings of happiness & self-confidence flow into your life replacing sadness & self-doubt. Sending my best wishes for your investigative adventures. Now get to work, Mulder! Tarry not.
What happens if you don’t like anybody? Joking. Sort of.
I have one friend and two professors whom I could say I like.
And maybe a friend or two out of town.
A few of these people I actively disliked in the beginning. Then as time and situation would have it, I grew to become fond of their company. Based on the actions of a few friends, I’d say they find mine decent.
It takes time sometimes to know what you like.
Every person I had put on a pedestal (okay with the exception of great artists who inspire me and the world) are now at their proper place-on human ground.
It’s so funny the peers and even teachers I thought I loved appear really unattractive to me now.
I based a person’s likeability on 100% superficial qualities. A person’s character can only be deciphered via values, and to known someone’s values you have to watch, wait, and see.
Nothing gives me an instant headache like hearing people troll on about how so and so was a doctor or a humanitarian or whatever but are so base because they didn’t value monogamy.
Vacation doesn’t define relationship values. Nothing defines relationship values except relationship values.
‘Vocation doesn’t define relationship values’ is what I meant to spell. *le sigh*
I am experiencing this in my workplace with the NPD female coworker I’ve mentioned before. She feels wronged by me, yet she seeks me out to exact punishment. It’s as if she is thinking ‘How can I ignore YOU if you are not paying any attention to ME? ‘ If I am away from my office for any extended amount of time, it seems she finds reasons to float around the office, trying to find me so that she can continue punishing me – if not with noise (her weapon of choice) then with smells, or by trying to make you feel “left out” of some *thing* – like a group lunch. I’ve read that exacting punishment is textbook NPD.
I once had a computer date match who early on in our one and only face-to-face meeting indicated that I was not a physical turn on for him. OK…great…let’s call it a day. But no-oo-oo….he had to explain in great detail the beauties of his recently lost true love and point out how my attributes were so different. I’m telling you, I could DRAW the ex-girlfriend after listening to his detailed description.
This post let’s me know it’s a perceived power trip for the inflictor. They’re playing head trips…want to make YOU feel “less than”. So far, that has never worked on me. I don’t feel sorry for these types and all the mental issues such behavior indicates. They are too screwed up for me!
And on a side note – this behavior can show up in how one handles personal finances. As Suze Orman says – ‘ We spend “more than” when we feel “less than” ‘ and ‘People spend money they don’t have to impress people they don’t even “know” or “like” ‘.
The exAC sent a text late last night. He said he was at a town center near me, missing his GF, hoping Im doing well. Attached a pic of us. Interesting, as he lives 1 hour away in another state. So, my guess is he was on a date and thought he might get a response and drop by before heading home. He just wanted me to know hes dating in my neighborhood now. Referring to me as GF? This is a guy who cheated constantly. Havent seen him in 9 months. Hes never been a true friend and I certainly dont like nor respect him. And he does not like me. He is just desperate for supply and wants revenge. Good luck to the douchebag. I have moved on!
Mags,
I’m with Rev (smoochies woman, saw yr reply btw, but getting hard to respond in right area from mobile, so this is it here. Pleased to hear yr well Revvie x)
Although the security of income would have been validating, along with a role that acknowledges yr considerable expertise Mags, this nest of a workplace, wasn’t a good fit for YOU long term. Often in employment, we think of the employer doing the ‘choosing’ as to whether they want us on board or not. You acknowledge though, that you weren’t sure if you wanted the longer term role or not.
Your hesitation Mags was yr intuition telling u this place wasn’t a good fit for YOU. I know tht rejection stings but take this one in stride. You really didn’t want this position anyway. I predict it would have turned nasty, as tends to happen with square pegs in round holes re employment.
Hugs Mags. xx
I always appreciate the wisdom here. Just this evening, I had the feeling a friend was circling the drain with r/shit insanity and so put myself out for her… I ended up all dressed up with nowhere to go and shaking my head – again. I agreed to something against my better judgment for someone for whom I have always shown up in life. She knows how to play me… (She was once my assistant and my recommendations were indisputably decisive in landing her jobs of increasing responsibility. For some reason, I now need her approbation? WTF?!!)
If not for the AC/Cluster B disordered/Narcissist, I acknowledge that I don’t think she would still be in my life. Sadly, I am so alone now that I am holding on to crumbs in my other relationships. Sigh. ;( Time to do more about this, too! I just won’t have anyone left and at my age (53) it is hard to find new ‘old’ friends. Any advice? (Another subject, I know!)
I don’t post so much anymore but NML and all the contributors here have been a lifeline on this journey. In the spirit of supporting those who build us up and speak the truth, I want to recommend a site that has been enormously helpful with my feelings of betrayal in particular. http://www.chumplady.com.
The cognitive dissonance still rears itself even after almost 2 years NC. It is finally dissipating between BR/NML’s amazing insights and Chumplady/Tracy’s style of “Trust that he sucks”and more no nonsense talk/profanity! (I hope you don’t mind this recommendation, Natalie, but she has been an excellent complement to you/BR for me and I think there is a lot of crossover based upon how many people quote you/BR on chumplady!) xo
FX,
I absolutely LOVE Chumplady! I’m more of a lurker than a poster, but those women are some of the bravest, funniest ladies I’ve ever witnessed. And what they’ve endured, some of them decades…it’s enough to make your skin crawl. I mean, are there REALLY men/women out there that are THAT incredibly screwed up??? Seriously, who does some of that stuff??? That site has been such an uplifter for me. Plus, I have an entirely new arsenal of cuss words, some of them I’ve made up on my own, thanks to that site. You should read my journal! WHEW! If my mom knew…..LOL
*Ass Clown/Cluster B disordered/Narcissist is not a medical diagnosis from a professional for this particular evil toddler. However, I do believe I have wasted enough hours thinking about BS to earn a degree. Please do not be me in this regard! There is a past BR post on this very subject. 😉
Hi all, this post and the comments makes me think of a colleague who upset me a lot a few years ago. I felt like she would often jump on things I said and tell me I was wrong, even twisting my words and humiliating me in front of others, and I was very intimidated as well as fearful that she would sabotage my career progress. Now we’ve found harmony and I often wonder how/why.
For one thing, I was at the time in a place of very low self-esteem, so her slights on me would reverberate very deeply. I think there was some element of not respecting myself and looking too hard for validation, and this clashed with her personality which is to be blunt and focus on the task, not the people.
I don’t want to go down the route of saying I deserved mistreatment or will gloss over it, what makes me very pleased about the way we are now is that I don’t put ‘blame’ on either of us. I think ultimately we both had a bit of growing up to do and managed to slowly overcome the hostility so I respect both of us. I believe I magnified the problems in my mind but what problems were there, made me aim at peaceful co-existence and nothing more.
On my part, as I wasn’t sure what was and wasn’t in my mind, I gave her a blank slate every time I saw her. We don’t have a lot of contact, so it was easier to try to move on by making sure I was free of my own baggage and just worked on a professional level. Given that I was so damaged to think people didn’t like/respect me until they proved otherwise, the blank slate approach was important.
This doesn’t mean forgetting the hurt, the other part of my ‘strategy’ was to lose any idea of getting her to like or approve of me. I think this is why she has become warmer towards me in the past year or so, but either way, I genuinely don’t care whether she likes me or not. We work in a collective and all I want is good teamwork, so it has worked out 🙂
This article is outstanding Natalie.
I forgot about bargaining, which clearly I’ve been doing a great deal of to no end.
I’m starting to see past my nose, and I feel some empathy for him; I’ve a better understanding of my ex’s reaction to me after I ended the relationship, which is helping me to not only forgive myself but also him.
Smiles @ Noquay smudging with Sage as a cleansing ceremony.I’ve done this myself (& swear it helps.) 🙂
I think I definitely have a problem dealing with disapproval, and my overactive imagination doesn’t help. I’ve done allotta inner child work, but I seem to be slipping back into people pleasing and approval seeking. My brain just seems to keep finding new pathways to feed my addiction. It’s a disturbing version of “when one door closes another door opens.” Approval seeking can be a real mind destroyer because I really see how some people take it as an open invitation to abuse me, I really don’t like that. And of course, I’m taking a short cut–stroking my ego –instead of working on building my self-esteem? I dunno, I thought I was working on building my self-esteem. Most days, I don’t really feel like I have a self-esteem problem until I find myself in conflict with someone else, or I experience a setback, loss, or I just plain damn don’t get what I want, or I discover I can’t do something. Maybe my self-esteem is ok, but when I’m stressed, I flip, and my inner child starts running my life–er that would be me–so maybe I just need to grow up, mature, and start acting like an adult. These days I must say I’m having difficulty seeing the difference between the codependents and the narcs. Everybody just seems hell bent on getting their needs met by someone or something outside of themselves, myself included, and the whole world seems addicted to something, like really? People eat ashes?and people like me really like to blame others for their problems; OK, mom-monster and dad-sociopath, I release you. I’m sure they weren’t listening, but that doesn’t stop me from owning my part in this madness, and taking responsibility. It’s not like I don’t know how to act. So, I’m trying to stay the course, be patient, be myself, pick my battles, and bestow dignity and grace, but I did yell at someone yesterday. I felt bad; I called him this morning and apologized, he accepted, but then I realized he was asleep. Well, I didn’t feel too bad yesterday when the cashier at the grocery store crunched her nose at me for doubling my bags, and I maintained my composure when the bag-boy tried to block my path while I was reaching; there was the Religious witness that I politely shooed away from my door, to think she almost started to give a fuss, but I put my boundaries in her face, so now I’m sitting here enduring the disapproval of a coworker who promises to be a real pain in the asprin? I’m trying to stop cursing. If I can keep the drama at bay; OK, then I think that’s progress.
Elgie,
I hope you ordered everything pricey on the menu, took only a bite of each, and suddenly had to go.
FX
I went through a similar struggle w holding onto crumb friendships when I wld walk away from the ex. I felt like I couldn’t handle losing both at once. I wld walk away from them but then return to him and vice versa. Eventually though because I was unhappy with both I told myself im going to have to keep going without either or I wont ever get away and get happier. It hurt because I felt alone like I had to hurt and make hard choices while others were “ok”. I was determined to not go back to either though. Its been about a year now and while it isnt easy always I havent gone back to either sets of crumbs. Honestly for me personally losing the crumb friendships were more far more hurtful than my ex because I felt like they were fake and I had gone waaaaay out of my way for these people for 10+ years!!!!!!. I realized that I have to heal from any crumb relationship I’ve invested myself more in than the other party whether romantic, friends or work. It isnt easy finding good friends but it takes trying and debit/credit trust. For me once I stepped away from the friends crumbs I also had to accept how angry I felt. Im healing from this but at this place for myself cant really say im friendship available as im getting my footing back. Hope this helps. All the best to you.
For me, the hard part is work colleagues who hold power. If I don’t like a person, I don’t expect they will like me, as my feelings will show in one way or another. Perhaps I am disliked for some reason by them? But, fact is, due to the need to pretend to like those I dislike at work who can (and have) punish(ed) me using their power, I struggle. I can’t pretend to like people. Being ‘professional’ doesn’t cut it either, cause the real feelings are apparent.
Rachael, I see what you mean. It’s hard to be professional when ideally, given that you’re around each other so much, there should be some kind of warmth too. Is it possible you’re mistaking dislike for disinterest? I don’t know if it’s an important difference, but it just makes it less personal. I think particularly in times of low self esteem, bosses’ treatment has made me believe they don’t like me and I start focusing on my flaws. But they probably just don’t see any reason to make an effort and maybe don’t want to make themselves vulnerable to less powerful colleagues by being open/human. So it’s about your position, not you as a person.
In similar ways I believed once that a friend’s partner disliked me when we met at a wedding but I was told later that she wasn’t making an effort with me compared to others because she was more interested in meeting other couples of a similar to do stuff with and I didn’t have that potential as a single. It seems weird reasoning to me because however misguided, I go on character rather than position when I decide who to give my time to, but others are more strategic and there’s nothing you can do about it.
i think i see what u mean happy b, and its helpful to think that way i guess. maybe its not really on topic, but my struggle is that when powerful colleagues dislike me (or are ‘disinterested’) they are plain nasty and sabotage my work. I tried to take it up with one but it was denied and I was accused instead. I put on the niceness but they still screw me over, cause lets face it… u can tell if someone dislikes u (or is ‘disinterested’)
ah well, some people are just a*holes and power-hungry, most places have them and some professions more than others. I just wanted to make the point that you can’t easily tell if someone dislikes you, I used to assume it but wasn’t always the case, sometimes people just want to get tasks done in a particular way and may be willing to step on toes to do it, might be so insecure they see you as a threat, all kinds of reasons but so few relate to you as a person. Can you change your work environment? Some places I’ve worked in have had more than their quota of nasty people and it is upsetting, you have my sympathies.
i really love my job and i just got a good pay rise… finally. has to be actually paid though to BE a pay rise 🙂
I don’t want to leave. Guess i will just keep pretending these people are reasonable… world is full of ar_e holes. thanks for your empathy happy b x
btw, bully manager at previous job was investigated after i left and given the ar_e (fired in aussie language), so i was vindicated despite not being in a position to make a complaint at the time. these people eventually come unstuck!
This is well-timed. I recently briefly dated a man I was only “so so” on but I’ve been trying to date guys even if I don’t feel any chemistry or spark with them, as long as they are nice, respectful, and seem interested in me. On date four, he began talking coming to my apartment. I told him I wasn’t ready for that. I also got around to asking him if he was looking for a relationship, something I normally ask on date one, but since he’s a talker and so am I, we kept going off on other topics. He said he was looking for a relationship, but I drilled down a little because at 50 he has only had one long-ish term relationship, which I thought was rather odd. Anyway, long story short, the next day he “broke up” with me saying that he thought I was looking for something more serious than he was. Kind of ironic since I didn’t feel anything for him, but kept giving it chances thinking it might click later. Anyway, no big deal. But then suddenly my brain kept whirring with scenarios of how I could “win” this situation. How could I regret making him do what he just did? Mind you, I didn’t give a fig if I ever saw him again, and yet my brain was full of plots about how I could get him to regret his decision and come after me again! Pure EGO. Luckily, I knew my brain was just out of control and did not act on it and will not act on it. I think our brain has a mind of its own sometimes 🙂
Help! I need encouragement!
The MM I’ve been trying to go NC with has just texted me. I’m like a puppy that needs to be hit on the head. I like him more than he likes me – for no real good reason (married, duh!).
Tell me no!
Feel free to be harsh.
Antsy,
It’s time to think about his wife and kids! This ‘relationship is very selfish and destructive!’ How would you feel if it were being done to you?
I don’t get what you get from this, with exception of the occasional hook up. I believe that’s what you said. What do your friends and family think about this?
Time to show yourself some love and respect, as this situation is nowhere .
I personally don’t want anything to do with people I don’t like. I don’t want them to like me, in fact I like to think that they no longer exist. I do see co-workers and friends in the cycle of the “I hate them, why do they hate me” game. It’s strange to me. You can’t expect much from anyone these days, especially from someone you don’t like.
Natalie you saved my life. This son of a bitch made me get into a relationship with him…used me, raped my emotions and dumped me for no fault of mine. I went through near suicidal depression. It was only Baggage Reclaim that gave me my sanity back. Kudos