I love you but you know my situation.
I hear you but that’s not something that I can do.
I do like myself but I do give myself a very hard time.
I want to change but I think it’s too late.
I really like you but I’m still coming to term with my separation.
I’m really enjoying our time together but I just want to keep it light.
I know a few people who say “It’s what comes after the but that counts” (woolly hat tip to BR reader Grace included) and if you remember this, it will keep you out of a lot of trouble and ensure that you’re present enough to be listening to what people say, not just listening to half a sentence and then drifting off into a fluffy fantasy.
It’s what comes after the but that counts because it’s where the truth or our energy lies.
I’ve seen it so many times in the stories people share where they emphasise how much their ex or partner loves them or really wants to do something because they kept saying it. Yes…but they also kept saying “But I can’t do this”, “But I’m not that”, “But you this and you that.” People with excessive use of “but” (cough) can end up being guilty of giving with one hand and taking away with the other, which basically brings you back to their status quo.
Many a person has had their expectations managed down by clever use of “but”.
“But…” doesn’t necessarily mean that the person is ‘shady’ but what you do have to realise is that we communicate who we are through what we say and do, and also what we don’t say and do. No matter how much of a good game we talk, we just can’t help but show people who we are. It’s self-evident. We have “tells” and yes, we say stuff that completely contradicts something else we’ve said. Our jobs as individuals is to be naturally listening and watching as part of the process of being in reality.
Judging by the amount of emails and comments I’ve had on the subject of Future Faking ever since I first wrote about it, paying too much attention to words that we want to hear (even if there is a lack of action to support them) and feeling very flattered by it, can mean that we tune out of ‘content’ that’s not on that ‘frequency’ or ‘on message’.
For instance, it’s easy to focus on “I love you” but what you should be focusing on is what came after the but, such as them reminding you of their situation and their limitations, which also puts a cap on the extent of their feelings and any actions you might be expecting to show up with that love.
If you tell me that you love me, I’m kinda expecting the loving action and a loving relationship to come with. It’s a package deal.
I love when people say “I agree with you but…” because that’s when you should be paying close attention. Again, it doesn’t have to be something shady but the person may have an objection that impacts your expectations or the “but” may highlight a real difference in values.
There’s also, “I want that too but…” We can be unwittingly letting ourselves off the hook if what we put after the but is our fears or firmly held beliefs that govern our capabilities.
This means that you need to make sure that you’re changing your intent and supporting the decisions you make and the actions that follow, by putting your fears etc., BEFORE the but and something positive that reaffirms your intentions, commitment, motivations etc., AFTER.
“I’m afraid that they might change after I’ve needed it, but I know based on X months/years and/or various experiences and this is what I have to make a decision on – who they are, not who I want them to be.”
Or just make sure that wherever there’s a “but”, that positive intent or positive self-validation comes after and ends your statement. And yes, sometimes they have to take their overused “but” and jog on.
Your thoughts?
About the Author:
Natalie Lue is the founder and writer of Baggage Reclaim and author of the books Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl, The Dreamer and the Fantasy Relationship and more. Learn more about her here and you can also follow her on Facebook and Twitter - @baggagereclaim .
Natalie (NML) – who has written 1083 posts on Baggage Reclaim by Natalie Lue.
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Lavender
Boyfriend and I kissed after two months, though we were holding hands before then. I didn’t have to explain anything to him as we are on the same page. I can imagine it would be more difficult if he sees nothing wrong with kissing or sex earlier than that.
It,s up to you to set the boundaries together. Some religious people are stricter than we are and wouldn’t even kiss before marriage. That,s up to them. there is no definite line in the sand. Myself, it would feel too much like friends hanging out if we did that. I like knowing that we are sexually attractive to each other. Otherwise, there,s the danger of being in that I love you but am not in love with you grey zone. I,m not having that!
That makes total sense Grace. And kudddos to you for setting and sticking to the boundaries.
Grace, I’m sure its no surprise that I would never wait 2 months to kiss someone (lol), but boy I do sure think its cute. You “sound” really happy.
Oh grace, thank you. The guy I am seeing (if you can call it that) is moving at glacial pace and I was not sure what the hell was happening. He says he wants to take it slow and really getto know each other. I thought it was BS. A guys saying that???? But again, I’m sooo new to dating, I have no idea what is going on half the time. Maybe there are men out there that are not all AC and truly do the right thing. Fingers crossed.
How often did you and the boyF see each other in the first few months?
Confused
Within a few weeks of him declaring that he liked me, we started seeing each other one-to-one twice a week. Sometimes just for a walk so it wasn’t always romantic date stuff.
the first few weeks can be awkward as you just don’t know each other. don’t make assumptions, enjoy the time, and observe. Keep telling yourself it’s not a big deal.
But slow doesn’t = no progression. There should be a bond developing, steadily.
Grace: Thank you. That helps and yes, I am telling myself it’s not a big deal and may (and probably does) mean very little. The time I spend with him, I do enjoy but I don’t put more emphasis than needed.
I’m kinda glad it’s moving slowly. No pressure for sex at all. The only wrinkle is that he is seeing someone else (as I mentioned before) but I’m OK with that as,
1) It take a little pressure off
2) He still treats me with care and respect.
At this point I’m Ok with things. I’m in no hurry to find a partner so if it works out great, if not no loss.
I’ll take the time to decide if this is what I want. I have my feet firmly on the ground and my eyes and ears wide open.
oh he isnt lining you up to be the overlapper is he?
@¢onfused: Just for clarification: “he is seeing someone else”, does that mean “he is in a relationship” or “he is double dating”?
But either way, this would be a red flag for me. If there is another woman involved, then he won’t have both feet in your discovery phase. Plus, it might feel like some kind of competition between you and the other woman. Not healthy. And very draining.
And as to “I’m Ok with things”, those have been famous last words for many of us. I think it was runnergirl who said the same about the phrase “I can handle it”. I’m afraid we’re kidding ourselves there.
Aww Tulipa . Thank you so much for your concern. ? Hugs! You and the other ladies here are awesome.
I guess ‘seeing’ is too strong a word. The situation is that we are ‘dating’ but not ‘exclusive’. We are in the discovery phase. I have to be honest that certain thoughts did enter my mind initially (He is overlapping? Am I an option? etc) but I’d consider it a big RED flag if he wanted exclusivity after only two months. I know nothing about him and as someone here pointed out (on another topic board), do I really want exclusivity with someone I don’t know? My gut has not set off any warning bells and I really listen to my gut now a days.
There is no pressure for sex and the lines of communication are very open. We are getting to know one another to see if there is anything there. Currently there is care, respect, and honesty. Too early for love. (Way too early).
Now that being said, if we were exclusive and he was seeing others it would be a HUGE FLUSH and I’d very much consider it cheating. And I abhor cheating.
I’ll really want to take my time to decide if this is what I want. I have my feet firmly on the ground and my eyes and ears wide open. After the ass clown debacle earlier this year, I really am being way way more cautious.
@¢onfused: Sorry, but can’t find that other thread you’re referring to right now. Anyway, I don’t get why people need to multiple-date??? It might be common in the U.S. and recommended in books and all that, but for me it would be a no-go anyway. And quite frankly, dating one person (which means giving a certain amount trust while being ready to “flush” at any sign of red flags) would be such a big plunge for me right now that I wouldn’t want to do it with MULTIPLE people at the same time!
And btw, if you’re serious about dating, it should take only a few weeks (if not less) to weed out most unsuitable candidates, even if red flags/issues might arise later on as well. Why complicate this process by seeing several candidates even during those few weeks (instead of dating one at a time)? That pertains to women as well as to men in my opinion.
I agree EllyB,and think that multiple dating is the first step, great lesson in how to accept crumbs. I`m not surprised people whom this type of relationship suits peddle it as some kind of new socially acceptable rule. Two months, confused is an awfully long time for someone to know if they want to get to know you more, give you enough respect not to treat you like an option, even for the discovery phase. I don`t imagine granting someone a healthy amount of trust knowing they are “auditioning” other people. Well, are you happy for them to go on romantic dates/meals/ hold hands/kiss?? I wouldn`t be. It`s a slippery road to becoming a FBG. And it`s so true, you get what you settle for.
Lavendar,
I’m not “religious’ per se. I have values now. Morals. During my recovery from assclowns, I’ve learned that we can change values and morals to be more aligned with what we feel is right for ourselves.
I have seen way too many women wounded when they jump into bed with someone too early in the relationship and too many ass clowns who count on it because it bonds her to him. The hormone oxytocin is released during orgasm and breast feeding and this DOES seal the deal for her.
I find it difficult to believe that friends with benefits is somehow acceptable. I tried that. I don’t think it’s possible with empathy. Sex was meant to bond us, emotionally and spiritually. Somehow the idea of that much bonding while dating is nauseating.
MY views of sex have changed as well. I LOVE sex and enjoyed it when I was in the relationship, or at least I thought I did. But looking back on it now, not really, because I was being objectified and not loved. Learning about someone new or loving someone takes a very long time, if it’s genuine. I don’t see falling in love with someone within two months. With my new friendships, they have taken two years to develop. I trust them now, but I was cautious at first.
Assclowns are infamous for love bombing. Sex is apart of that. He knows if he gets you into bed, he has you and he can be anything you want him to be, to make it happen.
I just don’t get why women believe they can know someone within just a few weeks, let alone just a few months.
Someone who wanted to jump into bed with me too soon would be a huge red flag.
I don’t see the rush if it’s someone who has the potential to be a permanent life partner.
K,
“I find it difficult to believe that friends with benefits is somehow acceptable. I tried that. I don’t think it’s possible with empathy. Sex was meant to bond us, emotionally and spiritually. Somehow the idea of that much bonding while dating is nauseating.” I can’t agree more. Casual sex doesn’t make sense to me and believe me I’ve tried it and it has never been truly pleasurable/fulfilling. Sure I bragged like it was (lies) and built it up in my head because I didn’t want to admit how much of a physical and emotional risk I had taken with such little return. Casual sex is an oxymoron just like casual relationship. Sex is not inherently casual. In a physical sense it is an expression of extreme vulnerability and to try to make this casual is to set yourself up for hurt and drama. I’ve heard some people can have casual sex and enjoy it/feel fine (no anxiety about it) but ya know, I’m just not buying it.
I agree that, for me, casual sex is impossible. I have had discussions with people that maybe it is easier when you are younger to jump into bed with someone who you barely know but…to be honest, I just drank more when I was younger so I think that that was what made it easier lol!
I think that, given my current ability to not down more than two glasses of wine with someone, casual sex is definitely out.
I have to say that I did do a ‘one night, casual sex’ thing with someone last week. He is an acquaintance that I met a year ago, he happened to be in town for a couple of days. Everything about him screams EUM (including living in another city), but after having spent 2 months on BR, I went in with eyes open. Initially I resisted what I saw to be him trying to reel me in for casual sex. Then I went out with him and his work mates, had a really fun time, and decided to take him home and see how I felt about it. I feel fine, it was my choice, I went in with knowledge of what it was and that it was all my CHOICE. It also feels empowering in a way that my last sexual experience is no longer the exMM EUM Narc, with whom sex was intertwined with emotions that were entwined due to FF and FF and the expectations that came with it, which did indeed lead to greater desire for him and bonding to him. I had no expectations of this casual fling and enjoyed it for what it was, and being a scorpio he was also intent on making sure it was as equally pleasurable for me! I also asked him to never lie to me, which he didn’t out of respect I’m sure in part due to the fact that I told him all about my recent experience, and he left me with no expectations that it was anything other than what it was. So I believe it is possible that if the fancy strikes you and you are honest with yourself about what is, you can enjoy the occasional dalliance if you so choose.
jewells
If you’re able to do that then fair enough and I’m not criticising the ability, but a word of warning… that viewpoint rests on the assumption that they’ll leave YOU alone.
When I broke up from my long-term relationship I had three dalliances (ace word) and each time I assumed that it was a Wham Bam type of a thingummy. Each of them a) discovered that I was quite a nice sympathetic listener the morning afterwards b) assumed that I’d be happy to behave as their free prostitute and c) even when I’d binned them off, still assumed that they could use my spare room as a flop-house to avoid getting a taxi home, and then spend the night trying to creep into my bedroom.
Admittedly, I live in a Small Place (although in a sense that made it ‘feel’ safer) and also admittedly, I could’ve exercised better judgement when it came to protecting my boundaries afterwards. But when you’ve got someone pounding your door down at 4am or leaving lots of angry messages on your phone about how they’re away and they’re going to drunk-drive the 30-mile journey unless they know that you’ll let them in when they arrive, in which case they’ll get a taxi (sheesh, did this stuff actually happen to me?)… you do start questioning your rational judgement a bit.
Tbf, if the same thing happened now I’d call the police/let them drive home drunk/throw eggs at them from my bedroom window. But even those’d be a fairly unpleasant things to have happen and I just don’t want to risk it. My emotional wellbeing is too important for me to have to deal with it.
Thankfully, it was the least psychotic of these three charmers who got me pregnant (just the whiniest, and that was a bundle of laughs) but ALL of them seemed like quite nice normal blokes when I first met them. I had no idea that I was about to become the Patron Saint of Loonies.
I suppose I’m saying that you need to exercise judgement and be super-careful if you’re going to pursue that path. Don’t assume that people are playing by your rules and think and watch carefully before you make yourself vulnerable to someone whose intentions you haven’t much idea about.
Jewells
I did some of that and looking back it never did much for me bc
1. You don’t enjoy the sex that much, with someone you don’t know very well. It takes time, familiarity and trust to get really comfortable enough to really enjoy the experience. Added to that your senses will probably be dulled by alcohol. (or you probably wouldnt be doing it)Men have even told me that they don’t really enjoy ONS that much, for exactly the same reasons, and they have performance anxiety to add on to that.
So why do it?
The reason, inboth cases is validation (yes, I’ve still got it!)which wears off pretty quickly. Even if you knew it was never going any further there’s still a pinch of hurt that they didn’t phone or express any interest in seeing you again; or they do want to see more of you, but you realise that actually you don’t much fancy or perhaps even like
them. That isn’t a good feeling either.
Then there’s all the other, uncomfortable baggage; wondering who knows and what he’s told others (and I don’t care how liberated your social circle is, there’s still a double standard)and you might not want colleagues, family, classmates to know.
Then there’s the “long term casual” non-relationship which is what I and many others got
involved in, whether we realised it or not, and leads to all kinds of hell.
I appreciate your comments, I really do. I trusted my judgement on this one and I was happily right. It was exactly what I thought it would be. He has enough class and decorum to not be a clingon or a pest, nor has he even bothered to email me since, but I wasn’t expecting anything, so not disappointed. He lives in another, well, country in fact and isn’t part of my social circle, so has no one to impart the information to. So, as dalliances go, I think I chose well, and it’s not like it’s going to happen often, nor do I intend on proceeding in this manner. As I too know that sex within a mutual relationship is sooooo much better, as well as having a life partner is also much more desirable. I am still going in the direction of healing so that I can find myself in a healthy relationship. I was more testing myself, my judgement and in a way, having an experiment to see where I’m at and having a dalliance that was on ‘my’ terms, with my eyes wide open and unclouded by the illusion or fantasy of my recent MM EUM Narc experience – an act of self empowerment about making a choice in knowledge. And yes, the mandatory precautions were implimented, I didn’t take the situation THAT casually. He WAS funny the next morning I have to say…he’s shorter than I am and I noticed that he bounced about on his toes when we were saying our goodbyes as he was leaving my place. The evening before, in conversation I came to find out that he doesn’t like himself very much, add that to being self conscious about his height and I can see the core of his EUMness, but I’m no flo, he’s going to have to tackle all that on his own time
Cheers
Add to that, the reason I chose to do this with him was: he did treat me in a respectful manner, for an EUM, in that he did nothing to lead me to believe it to be anything other than what was presented, he’s a scorpio – which I have a penchant for anyway, he has some class and decorum. I met him through a work situation – I was working, he was visiting someone I worked with and respected and I knew that he had to have substance to be friends with this person. The EUM signals: I haven’t heard from him since our intitial few emails after we met a year ago, he’s a musician, he emailed me when he knew he was coming and duration of the time he was here, only gave me a few hours heads up that he was arriving (which I ignored until the next day) and tried to get me to see him the next night without setting any kind of time or place except to say he’d contact me after the soccer game (so I made myself busy and didn’t see him that night either), so when he did finally set a meeting time for the last night he was here, he was prompt on time, we went to dinner, he had tickets for me for his concert, I went out with him and his colleagues, had an amazing time with the three of them, got to know him a bit better, found him to be as I remembered from the year before and determined that, despite being EUM, he was definitely non detrimental. Pretty much a take him at face value, and you get what you expect. In the past I may have read more into his ‘interest’ or ‘attentions’ or ‘crumb gestures’, now I see them for what they are and it’s my choice to take it or leave it. I chose to take it, enjoy the moment, I don’t regret it because I was in my power. BUT, I am still on the path for more.
oops, should have continued ‘still on the path for more” for myself and one day with someone who can provide trust, respect, love and care within a relationship with me. I’m not there yet, but everyday I read BR, I get stronger and my experiences are deeper and more meaningful. I’m starting to understand how to provide these things for myself despite what/who is happening around me. Thank you everyone who posts here, it’s not just Nathalies’s blogs that have given me so much, but also everyone who shares their stories, as I have seen pieces of my own in so many.
Jennifer,
Yep! Agreed! Those that say that make me WONDER. What’s interesting is that underneath all of that pontificating about how great casual sex is, is a HUGE issue that is not being dealt with. I took it at face value that there was some truth in it…and I did because I was trying to justify in my own mind, my own “casual” relationship with a man I believed I loved but whom I KNEW did not love me. And it was an affair relationshit. Now? TOOOOTALLY different perspective.
I agree with you in that you set yourself up for drama and hurt. Ohhhhhh the lies we tell ourselves to avoid facing the truth…
K,
“underneath all of that pontificating about how great casual sex is, is a HUGE issue that is not being dealt with.” Exactly. For me it was the feeling of not being worth anymore than just casual anything, being so hungry for affection, getting sex and intimacy confused, not valuing my physical health and safety enough ( I mean if you are sleeping with someone you don’t know very well you are taking a risk. Point blank.) It was that I feared no man would wait. Untrue. There are men who will. Good men who are available and in it for the long haul. I just didn’t value myself enough to hold out for one of the good ones.
Yes, and you also can find yourself falling into the Justifying Zone. Until I read Natalies post on this I had no idea what I had done, but reading it made my blood run cold. Although I waited 2 months to have sex, as soon as we had, I felt far more committed, and so it was harder for me to leave when the shit started falling.
“Someone who wanted to jump into bed with me too soon would be a huge red flag.”
Yay, good for you!!! Pay close attention to that red flag, because I found in the spring that these kinds of situations can take you off guard. You just meet a guy, he seems nice, or even not that nice, you go on a date or two, and the next thing you know he is using every guilt-trip line in the book to get you to have sex with him. The problem is that he plays on your fear of losing him -> you don’t know if you’re ready to lose him because you still don’t even *know* him. Of course, if you did have sex him, within a couple weeks, you would know him better, realize he is an objectively enormous jerk/loser, and dump him with no regrets. But by then you have already had sex with him, and shared this beautiful thing with some creep who doesn’t deserve it. In my view, a guy pushing for sex is the single largest red flag that he can give a woman in the early stages of dating. If you see this flag, it’s not a matter of “should I push past this phase and see how he is after?”; it’s a matter of, “wow this person is a huge creep and I don’t ever want him near me again.” It’s also a matter of protecting *yourself* during the early dating phases by keeping all dates outside of one another’s homes.
K I’m right with you here. I would take MANY months before feeling comfortable/safe enough to progress to sex with someone.
I would also need to be clear that I am in a committed relationship with the goal of becoming permanent.
I have even thought about basically saying I am waiting until marriage (is this too old fashioned nowadays I wonder?)
Good for you in saying this. It might not be for everyone, and I don’t judge other people’s choices, but I read all this 90 day stuff and think, heck 90 days?? 90 days is NOTHING! And really when it comes to getting to know someone’s character INTIMATELY it isn’t.
I might be ready for hand holding and a peck on the cheek goodnight within 90 days!
T
Addressing a much earlier question. EUM’s can be with you for eternity, as long as you allow them to be in your life. My experience has been that the EUM I was involved with was a world-class manipulator. He was a long recovered drug addict, in addition to being in a marriage which he claimed was unsatisfying but at the same time creditted her with helping him get clean. He couldn’t leave her because he “owed her so much”. He was used to manipulating in his drug life and just applied the same tactics to luring in OT’s.A virtual DOG. I heard every kind of “but” that could be applied to “our” situation. I think if you can recognize the MANIPULATION that is so much a part of an EUM’s behavior it puts you so much further ahead in getting out of the mess, assuming you have some degree of self esteem.
Griz, your posts are just fascinating and right on point every time. You stated that you aspired to be a writer. I hope you will realize your dream. Best always to you and to everyone else in the struggle to better our lives by putting ourselves first.
Thank you Tinkerbell, I really appreciate your compliment. Now I’m blushing. It does mean a lot coming from you and all others here who I respect so much, who’ve been dispatched into a very, very personal hell by terrible people who used and abused them for wanting nothing more than a decent level of love, affection and respect. This site changed my life, and probably saved it too. The only way I can show my gratitude to Natalie and her help, and to other commenters here, is to offer whatever I can in words.
Griz,
I tend to agree with you. One of the things that impresses me about this forum is the level of high intelligence of others here, COUPLED WITH high levels of empathy that just need a little balancing. Ok, maybe a little more when one has been hurt, but I see LOTS of good writers here! I appreciate the comraderie and sharing here!
This post is so important to keep in mind. The stuff after the “but” is what you need to watch for. While I’m here, could I get a sanity check please? My guy treats me well most of the time. He does most of the things I ask for. We have some good laughs together.
His conflict approach is to play the ostrich and not face things. He has said it takes him several days to realize he is annoyed with life sometimes. He can be really moody. He can basically ignore me most of the time I’m at his house. We always stay at his place. He likes the idea of me leaving stuff at his house but he introduces me as a friend. He goes through times of not wanting to go along with any suggestions for things to do, so we just sit there. His RL with his mother is not so happy. His behavior towards me changed a lot (for the worse as in I feel a little neglected) after a recent argument associated with traditional commitment actions. Almost like he saw I won’t just have a superficial RL and he’s punishing me for it with passive aggression, withdrawing attention and affection, ignoring me sometimes when I’m with him. But a friend got engaged recently and he seemed VERY interested in gauging my reactions, hearing how I talked about it, and even brought up the engagement at a later date on his own. I get mixed messages.
He isn’t openly rude. He isn’t married. He doesn’t disappear for a week. No cheating or beating as they say here. Sometimes when I bring up emotional topics he gets very bondy and verbally intimate. He basically never starts those convos. Sometimes he can be spontaneously sweet. He really liked the idea of me meeting family/friends. It’s just, that I feel like he does not want a RL with any hard stuff. He wants it light and breezy always. When I back off he doesn’t really chase much. He’s stuck on his routine.
Complicating all of this is my own issues. I can be needy and need lots of reassurance. I try to keep it out of the RL as much as possible. So because I have these issues I can’t really tell whether I’m dealing with an EUM or whether he is just a little exhausted from dealing with my high-maintenance self.
And then I wonder if my inability to judge that is just another sign that he is messing with me. Can anyone tell from the details provided if I need to be careful? Some outside feedback would be so helpful!
anony, you could be describing my ex narc. If you are in London start panicking! His words and actions do not match. He has yo feeling like you are “high maintenance” just because you would like to know where the hell you stand (if anywhere) in what you cannot quite dare to call a relationship. CRUMBS!!!!!!!!!!!
Victorious,
thanks for giving it a name. I see now why reading anony`s post gave me this sinking feeling of recognition mixed with desire to run.I spoke to my brother yesterday,his life is in ruins in every sense, his wife is a narc, my dad was a narc ( this was brought to my attention recently)and I can so see that most of the relationships I had were with people who had narcistic traits. God, they are dangerous, yes anony, it`s true that if you lose the ability to judge it is a huge red flag! OMG, just run!!
Girls, both of you – this is the spitting image of my PotHead Ex. They are soooo good at making us wonder what’s wrong with us…and as Tinkerbell was brilliantly saying they are willing to be in our lives as long as we allow them.
anony,
the fact is he is moody, inconsistent, gives you mixed messages,you are walking around him on eggshells. Could it be that you don`t feel happy and secure in this relationship because of it? If you feel a bit insecure generally( totally human) behaviour like that will surely not make you feel any better. I would not feel happy and secure from what you describe either.I remember very well myself in that position, looking for any positive bits to try to justify still being there.I felt really insecure too and overeacted a couple of times,and gave him the benefit of the doubt, instead of giving it to me, but from time and space perspective – I know I was just reacting to his behaviour. Trying to work out why he was the way he was – waste of time. Now, if a person or a situation is making me feel uncomfortable, bad and insecure I`m not compelled to analyse it anymore, if it feels wrong, it IS wrong so it`s time to take protective action.
I`m not sure what exactly is the problem with your guy….but (here is the but
major flasbacks here. my ex EUM also wasn’t a classic AC. it was a more underneath the surface subconscious assclownery, which i now realise is much more dangerous because it sucks you into a state of confusion, wondering what the hell is wrong with yourself.
in healthy relationships there is no confusion. there should not be insecurity. it’s a big, red flag.
the introducing you as a friend is also pure BS. i put up with this, as well… actually, no i didn’t. he never introduced me at all to his friends. i always had to do it myself. they had no clue who i was. i still remember the confusion on their faces.
stop making excuses for this EUM and choose for YOU.
“in healthy relationships there is no confusion. there should not be insecurity. it’s a big, red flag.”
Yeah I think you’re probably right. It’s so hard to NOT think “this would have been a healthy relationship if I hadn’t let my own issues get in the way.” How sad is that. I try to have healthy communication and such. I feel like even if my feelings are my responsibility he should want to help me feel secure.
And there are times when he does. That’s my confusion. I’m wondering if the times he doesn’t help are times when I didn’t really ask for what I need.
you shouldn’t have to ask for him to acknowledge your presence, to be attentive and to make you feel safe and secure. those are BASIC ingredients of a healthy relationship.
he may not be the classic cheating, lying, asshole AC, but his lack of positive action speaks louder than words.
this dude is EUM or he simply doesn’t give a toss about you.
trust your instinct, that’s why you have it. this guy is a EUM at best and a passive-agressive AC at worst. what are you getting out of this relationship?
honestly, this one should be flushed so you can find someone who treats you with the care and respect you deserve. someone who does make you feel safe and secure, someone who loves your presence and acknowledges it. someone who doesn’t ignore and reject you. someone who doesn’t make you question your relationship and yourself. you deserve better than this.
Anony… They say here actions speak louder than words. Alot of what you wrote raises red flags for me but I am interested to see what other posters reactions are since I am fairly new to all this. Introducing you as a friend for one. My ex-AC did this for a long time and it annoyed the hell out of me.I think its a sign for things to come. ALways going to his place, another of my ex-AC traits. At times I would express my wants for him to come to my place and he did but only occasionally.Then he would come at 10pm which I advised him was not working for me. I started to feel like I was being used for sex. Not a good feeling at all. He would always deny it but I felt like that. I feel like I missed alot of red flags early on because well I didnt know what they meant & I was enjoying our time together.He was handsome, educated, kind,sensitive & felt like a breath of fresh air at that time of my life being divorced w/2 children. So totally different from my ex-husband but an AC/commitmentphobic thru & thru. The signs were there all along & knowing what I know now the puzzle all fits together …
I feel very strongly about the introducing you as a friend bit. It’s a lie to the world. It’s an insult to you. The best he should be able to hope for is that you be his friend, then.
Kit-Kat,
I can really relate to your post since I felt exactly the same in my almost 5years relationship wiht the handsome, educated, kind and ”OH sooo different from my Ex husband”, EUM . And looking back the signs were there from the start, I know they always are…I just wanted to let you know that you are not alone and that I understand you so well…the Puzzle is also complet in my case.
Used for sex, I never ever thought I would feel that way. But the other day he was grumpy all day, we were traveling so I’m sitting there trying to keep myself upbeat without him communicating in any way. Then all of a sudden he apologizes for being in a bad mood. Turns out he was hoping that fixed it and made me desire him sexually.
And this stuff has been hurting so much that I ended up crying after the sex. Which, he seemed to be concerned about. It seemed genuine. So here I am again questioning whether these red flags are all in my head. There’s a few times when he’s actually cried when I was crying over something.
How can you tell if it’s crocodile tears?
Here’s you tell. Teachable said they WERE! lol
(Sorry, Ididn’t mean to sound flippant. But men can be right manipulative and that sounds downright manipulative to me).
anony,
he sounds like he enjoys the power he has over you….and he loves high drama. Got the creeps again when I read this last bit you wrote about you crying after sex. My last AC quite clearly enjoyed yanking me backwards and forwards and watching me be sooo desperate for him. You sound unhappy, anony, take care.
“It’s just, that I feel like he does not want a RL with any hard stuff. He wants it light and breezy always.”
That sentence says it all. If you were in a quality relationship, you would not have written that sweetheart. I think you need to make a decision here. Why do you want to be with someone who you suspect is jerking you around.He is, in my opinion, from the way you describe him. Lots of guys can be sweet, hell I am sure that John Mayer can be very sweet when he is not being an AC. But those occasionals don’t make up for your feeling that you want more than him. I would bail, honestly. Good luck.
Anon,
Why do you put yourself down? “or whether HE is just a little exhausted from dealing with my high maintenance self.” WHAAAT????
This means you are in a ONE DOWN position.
This guy has UNFOLDED. His “techniques” aren’t aggressive as many assclowns, but sometimes the passive aggressive ones are more DANGEROUS as they are the KINGS and QUEENS OF GAS LIGHTING. They make YOU feel that YOU’RE the problem or the reason they are not reacting and responding the way that a NORMAL, HEALTHY person would.
One of my future deal breakers is the SILENT TREATMENT, which is what he’s subjected you too. It doesn’t matter *how* or *why* he does it, but it ERODES your self esteem and is the HEIGHT of disrespect because you are being shown you are NOT worthy of acknowledgement.
He is showing that is sooooo many ways.
In my opinion, this man is an assclown and a dangerous one at that, who will (and is) eroding what is left of your self esteem over time and filling you with self doubt. When you are asking these kinds of questions to yourself or others, it’s time to JOG!!
K,
Again you are sooo right. I’m so glad you brought up silent treatment. This is a red flag and very emotionally abusive. It is mean/spiteful/nasty and immature. I have to admitt I did this to my ex And something felt very wrong so I did some research on healthy relationships and brought it up in therapy and realized exactly how toxic it is. It’s done with the intention to get revenge/hurt and control, not with the intention to share/state ones needs or properly stand up for ones self. It’s a cowardly move that is like injecting poison into relationships.
I like the idea of silent treatment being a dealbreaker. And you’re right I shouldn’t judge myself for needing reassurance in relationships. When he is making me feel secure that isn’t an issue. But this last time when I let him know I wasn’t feeling secure, it doesn’t seem like he’s bothered trying to fix it.
You’re right it doesn’t matter why they give the silent treatment. I should ignore the fact that he probably has PTSD and can’t handle lots of stress. Shirt this stuff stresses me too.
And yes, the last couple of weeks I have been feeling a bit disrespected.
I might just cut bait… or I might say here are the ways I feel like you are not considering my needs. Here’s what I want. Figure out whether you can do that and show me your answer.
Is a last ditch effort unwise? What if this is all due to me not communicating well or something?
anony,
“Is a last ditch effort unwise?
I went down this avenue of thought with my ex. I did make that “last ditch effort” while we were away for a fortnight together in Argentina. I twisted myself into the proverbial pretzel in a “last ditch effort” of trying to give him space to do everything to his agenda, while at the same time attempting to communicate gently with him to try and get some reassurance that things would be okay between us. His response was to treat me to 2 weeks of passive agressive behaviour and make me feel like I was some kind of burden to him, and then (literally) run off and leave me after we landed at Heathrow Airport. I too had the exact same thought – “What if this is all due to me not communicating well or something?”. Trust me – and the many others who have replied to your post – it’s NOT you, it’s HIM! If you have been feeling a bit disrespected in the last couple of weeks, it’s because you HAVE been being disrespected. That’s your gut speaking to you and trying to protect you, if only you will listen to it! Please take the opportunity to dodge a bullet here before you get mortally wounded by it.
Anon,
I feel so irritated when the justifying of a man’s behavior is because he is: Depressed, has PTSD, has Asperberger’s, BiPolar, is manic.
Um..nooooooo….I have PTSD and depression. But ya know what? I don’t blame my BEHAVIOR or how I treat others on my mental health issue. This is a HUGE excuse that works SO WELL for some asshats who are passive aggressive and controlling. Pity is the NUMBER ONE reason that we stay.
FLUSH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Amen K. While these conditions are legit, I sometimes see them as disclaimers when they are brought up in the wake of shitty behavior.
anony,
I’ve been following Natalie’s wonderful posts on BR for about 18 months now, although I don’t often add to the comments any more. Please take heed of what all the others on here have said – they are all absolutely SPOT ON! Your man sounds so horribly similar to my ex that just reading what you wrote took me back to 2 years ago, when he was putting me through the wringer in just the same way, with all the insidious passive-aggression that almost imperceptibly chipped away at my self-worth. In the end, I truly believed that I was unworthy of him and that he was being moody and distant (and emotionally unfaithful behind my back) because I was too needy and not good enough for him. The details you have written here are so very similar to my own experience – all of it. I think these characters (which K correctly identifies as Gaslighters) are truly the most dangerous type of EU people. My relationship ended in February 2011, and although I am LONG-since over the heartbreak stage, I am still in therapy working on building my self-esteem back up to a state where I can properly create a new life for myself from the desolate ruins I ended up in. For the sake of your own sanity, please RUN from this guy as fast as your legs will carry you!
By the way, to get things back on-topic, one of the things my ex-Gaslighter said to me was “My previous ex-girlfriend truly loved me, *but* she tried to put me in a cage”.
If that’s not a commitment-phobe speaking, I don’t know what is.
Of course, I thought I would be different to her, the Exception to the Rule. How very, very wrong I was…
“My ex gaslighter”
I love it when women apply labels like this to their ex’s. It takes the power of any fantasy that’s left and puts a splash of reality onto the whole thing, but this one is a new one for me!
Thanks, K
By the way, re. your other post in reply to Anony, I’m suffering with PTSD and depression/anxiety too. You’re totally right that this is not an excuse to treat people badly. In fact, if anything, I have been apologising to people for having to lean on them a bit at the moment and keep telling everyone how much I appreciate them.
Wishing you well with your recovery, K ((((hugs))))
Anony,
Like others here have said, this guy sounds similar to my ex. He was moody, sometimes distant, easily offended by things that baffled me, and although he called me his girlfriend, I didn’t feel welcome in his life. I felt like I was tiptoeing around in his space, as to not be too ‘much’ for him. I almost felt like I was intruding sometimes. I stuck it out because he was sweet ( compared to the abusive ex ac), he was always on time, called when he said he would, etc. but I never got close to him. Something was missing. Whenever I would try to talk to him about ‘stuff;, he would get defensive and nothing would get ironed out. I’d felt like I pushed the wrong buttons. I became wary. Of course he blamed it on me, and eventually dumped me. This guy your with sounds like trouble down the road. If your gut is telling you things aren’t right, listen to it. We can justify it as our own fears gnawing at us, but needing intimacy and closeness in a relationship is not needy Hon. It’s normal to want those things. Don’t let him twist that on you, and don’t you twist that on yourself. Best of luck to you.
“I stuck it out because he was sweet ( compared to the abusive ex ac), he was always on time, called when he said he would, etc. but I never got close to him. Something was missing.”
This was part of my justifying zone for staying with the EUM I was always comparing him to the AC and of course the EUM was going to come up smelling of roses in comparison to an AC.
But there wasn’t any getting close to the EUM if one went too far assumed too much of a relationship bam he would do something to say nope you can’t win me over.
And something was definately missing.
“But there wasn’t any getting close to the EUM if one went too far assumed too much of a relationship bam he would do something to say nope you can’t win me over.”
Yeah I think that’s the fallout I’m going through right now. Lots of space and him making ZERO effort to engage me. Except if I go away and don’t stick around like he’s used to he makes minor efforts to reach out. But then if I go along with it he gets lazy/dismissive again.
Funny enough, I asked about him calling me friend. He had this deal about not wanting others to be in his private business. I asked if it was a commitment thing and he said no. Then he said, “well I don’t think it is.” Like he wanted to be sure he was being honest.
Ugh this is hard to sort out.
anony
“Ugh this is hard to sort out.”
It is hard to sort out because it isnt something you can sort out.
This is where the concept of twisitng yourself into a pretzel comes into play no matter what you do what you say you cannot get a straight answer out of these men.
I look at my last break up all about breaking up with me moving on with his life yet still wanting to know if I would have sex with him.
I figure even if you were a top lawyer you wouldn’t be able to sort things out. They are too slippery to be pinned down for an honest answer.
I agree with ALL of the responses you have received. He is not only EU and a bot of an AC, but totally passive-aggressive, which IS abusive in it’s own right. It’s covert, rather than overt.
YOU are NOT high-maintenance. YOU are merely asking for the BASICS of a relationship…whether it is platonic, business or romantic. YOU are NOT the problem in this equation…He IS.
I’ve learned the hard way. If it were me in your position, today, I’d FLUSH and leave him in the dust. HE is the unhealthy one and they just don’t change. There are plenty of HEALTHY, smart, educated, good looking guys out there who not only WILL refer to you as his girlfriend, but will APPRECIATE you.
If a guy is making you dance to his tune or making you jump through hoops to please HIM, tell him there’s a perfect job out there for him with that attitude. Head Clown in the circus. And you’d be happy to provide a glowing recommendation for the job!
Wow. Thank you all so very much. You have given me a lot to think about. I say I can be needy because I have major abandonment issues, and the buttons get pushed easily. I didn’t see this man as an EUM or Narc or AC so I was open about that, thinking if someone cares for you then they use those moments to help you heal.
That’s what set off this latest withdrawing fight thing. He withdrew something that symbolizes deeper commitment, I got upset and was open about it. I even told him it was my abandonment stuff and I need reassurance when it happens. He tried to reassure me. The next time I saw him I asked for cuddles and he had other plans – but he did try to do what I asked the next day.
I’m so confused about it. I really can be very needy, attention-seeking. I like validation a lot. I like someone not being so secretive that I must ask questions to get info.
I guess for the time being I will proceed with caution. I think as one of you said he might be one of those passive aggressive Good Guy Gaslighters who is mostly subconscious about it. He gets deeply offended if I think his actions have ill will. (The offense seems genuine.)
But bottom line, practically speaking I dunno how well I can manage a RL with a passive aggressive who uses the silent treatment. He won’t refuse to respond to me but he makes me do all the work.
Not to mention… four people in my life have told me it sounds like I am carrying too much effort in the RL. With my history, I don’t even know how to go about making it more balanced. I suppose if this man IS an EUM then he will not allow that to happen.
You all gave me much to consider. I’m still confused. There are plausible reasons for so much of what he does. But I guess in the end, even if it has a valid reason it isn’t right for me to sacrifice my needs.
Ugh he’s so good on paper! And so cute! And so charming and hot in bed when he’s trying. This is such a shame.
Anony,
Might I suggest some counselling for your issues that you seem to be very aware of – which is half the battle of overcoming them. Then you could be in a better position to assess the situation and see if his issues are indeed interfering with having a healthy relationship or if it’s the combination of yours and his issues that are creating the problem between you.
Thank you. I have done some counseling and last time I saw my T she says you’re doing so well I don’t think you need me! I need to give her an update lol. I think my guy has abandonment stuff too so one issue is I get insecure, it makes him insecure and he doesn’t reassure me. But if I feed him the working solution how can he not do it?
Lead a horse to water, can’t make him drink…
Who’s decided he has “abandonment issues” and that these are causing the problem in your relationship?
You can analyse them, diagnose the illness, condition, or trauma that causes them to act as they do and prescribe the solution but if they don’t want to “get better” or change then you’re banging your head off a brick wall. A perfect case study is my alcoholic father. He blames his problems on an abusive childhood. He is probably right (but how would I know). I notice how complacent and in denial he is about the damage he has inflicted on his own women and children. Anyway he has been married a few times and all these women have thought they could help him with the power of their love, support and insight. They presumably dismissed the experiences of the earlier wives on the basis that those other women just weren’t up to the job, were unworthy, didn’t understand him. Well not one of them was ever able to get him to stop because either he doesn’t want to stop or he can’t. I don’t know which it is and I don’t really see what difference it makes, now; the outcome is the same.
Your man either does not want to change or he can’t; (although I tend to think the former); either way it will
grind you into the ground.
If you have to tell someone
“stop being rude to me”
“stop sending me to Coventry for no reason”
“acknowledge me as your GF”
you’re on a highway to nowhere.
If he were hitting you, would you think it necessary to explain to him why your relationship would be better if he stopped?
Sending someone to coventry, ignoring them is at best very disrespectful and at worst an act of great hostility. Of course he knows you don’t like it. Nobody likes it.
anony, I am going to be blunt ( gulp) and hope I don`t hurt your feelings.I think you are in complete denial of the reality of your relationship and you are looking for any grain of hope of faciliating the change in him and your relationship. I was hell bent on finding a cure for alcoholism and narcisitic assclowness so that I can have a great relationship with a guy who was perfectly happy being an alcoholic and a narcistic AC.I spend a lot of time and money getting help from professionals, nearly drove my shrink to distraction. I could not get rid of that hope. What slowly shifted my denial was everyones stories on here, we all go through the same stuff, and none of us are an exception to the rule.
Anony…
I think you are completely in the Justification Zone AND blaming yourself. It’s time to take off the rose colored glasses. You may have abandonment issues, however, it’s been my experience that those issues only arise when someone is giving your CAUSE to be insecure. And does sound like he’s giving you a lot of cause.
Instead of trying to “fix” him, you might thin about how it makes you feel and that IT IS UNACCEPTABLE. It will probably make you angry, and if it does, it will give you the impetus to chose yourself over someone who is being passive-aggressively abusive.
In my opinion, you deserve WAY better than what you are settling for. You can find a sweet, cute guy who actually treats you really well…and then you’ll wonder what you ever saw in this guy.
Hugs.
Anony, I know you have a ton of spot on brilliant comments to digest and think about. Your post and the responses got me thinking about your “high maintenance” concerns. It sounds to me as though he could be the high maintenance one and I think there are some “but” issues.
The “but” issues: “My guy treats me well most of the time. He does most of the things I ask for. We have some good laughs together. BUT: “He can be really moody. He can basically ignore me most of the time I’m at his house. We always stay at his place. He likes the idea of me leaving stuff at his house but he introduces me as a friend.” “Sometimes he can be spontaneously sweet. He really liked the idea of me meeting family/friends.” BUT: “It’s just, that I feel like he does not want a RL with any hard stuff.” Listen to the buts.
I see a lot of my past internal dialogue in your comment regarding you being “high maintenance”. You describe him as moody, ignores you, withdraws affection, you feel a little neglected, things are on his terms, he doesn’t want a long term RL,etc. Who is the high maintenance one? It sounds like he is extremely high maintenance. As the others have said, he sounds like a few of the guys I’ve been involved with. Then when you concluded with: “So because I have these issues I can’t really tell whether I’m dealing with an EUM or whether he is just a little exhausted from dealing with my high-maintenance self.” The lights went on for me. That is exactly what I would think. He has all these issues so it must be because of my issues. NO, NO, NO! He has issues. You have issues BUT you are two separate people. You didn’t cause his issues and he didn’t cause yours. I don’t know if my response helps you or even makes sense. Your post really solidified for me everything Natalie has said about people being separate individuals.
All that being said, dear, I’d get out ASAP. Too many buts, mixed messages, and ambiguity, which creates self-doubt and erodes your self-esteem. BTW, I’m not an expert and you may disregard this response. Hugs though. Sounds like you are invested and attached and it may be difficult to disengage.
Thank you for the wake up call. I need that sort of thing. I should start reframing it as he is the high maintenance one. The mixed messages have been there from the beginning. In fact last night he texted me some positive words, and when I replied he ignored it. I said it confuses me when you reach out then don’t so please try to be more consistent. His response was that he wasn’t ignoring and just had nothing to say. Wiggle wiggle. When he wants to talk to me he has NO trouble finding something to say. This is b.s.
Anony,
This relationship sounds exhausting!
I, too, had a relationship that was filled with continuous drama and uncertainty, and for the life of me, I can’t understand why I stuck around. Relationships will have their ups and downs, but for the most part there will be ups. You will feel secure, and not be continually questioning every conversation, text and e-mail. This is too much work, and extremely unhealthy.
Please ask yourself, why you are choosing to stay in this situation. I think you know that this guy is no good, so why don’t you get out?
Also, the passive aggressive behavior is a no go, as it it very controlling and cruel – my ex did it too!
Oh so many buts! My last EU had buts for EVERYTHING! And in our last (well … his last tyrade) discussion, he yelled at me in a restaurant in front of our children and everybody, “I am sick of the excuses.” Ironic, but unfortunately enlightening to me for my own behavior. I had numerous buts and excuses of my own. And I saw how buts had kept me stuck, a victim, unaccountable and irresponsible, blaming, and I saw in him how limiting the buts were … and unattractive! Ugh. Now I’m aware of the buts, in me and others, and it prompts me into some kind of action. So grateful for his words. Hopefully he has learned as well.
@anony I would definitely say that there is some emotionally unavailabilty there. The withdrawing attention and affection and ignoring would be an eye opener for me. He doesn’t do this but he does this is what you are trying to filter out but you could easily miss the main point doing this and main point is that there is some uncertainty somewhere. It’s in your gut that something is not right in your beautiful picture. Hopefully you are not wearing rose colored glasses on. He ignores- not good. He withdraws – that’s not good. The fact that he isn’t rude; isn’t married or doesn’t dissapear for a week does not mean that he’s right for you. Someone can still have all the good points and still not be right for you. Natalie had a posting on this a while back. I would definitely proceed with caution just incase I have to FLUSH.
Natalie’s book Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl has been the single most important book I’ve read as an adult. Seriously. I’m not trying to peddle her book but really I CANNOT recommend it enough. I developed a fatal eating disorder in my last unavailable relationship and if I hadn’t ordered and started her book, I might not have made it. Not trying to exaggerate but that book gave me the courage to leave a toxic situation that was becoming near fatal for me in that my self care and health had gone to such shit due to the stress/confusion/manipulation/distrust/anxiety/ sneaky invalidation and my low self esteem (I didn’t know I had low self esteem as I had false confidence and I didn’t even know what self esteem was). These bad relationships do so much damage to our health and souls. I had no clue what the hell was going on in regards to the dating front. Now I’m street smart/way more confident and well…freaking alive and on my way to health spiritually, physically and mentally.
The book and the website really helped me to leave an abusive situation. So grateful I discovered it.
Lavender,
Me too. Getting the knowledge to see what was actually going on and then the courage to leave and stay away happened for me the more I read her book, read this blog and took her self esteem class. Such great resources. I am SO grateful.
Oh wow. Lightbulb moment. Ever since this new phase of the RL with this guy started, I have been feeling depressed and not wanting to take care of myself. I thought it was kind of a preemptive breakup experience, like this looks like it’s gone to crap anyway so the grief started. But now I’m not so sure.
Bumped into him today somewhere, was polite and terse and left quickly. He texted shortly after (usually he waits on me to text, and doesn’t text or respond while he is where I saw him). When I saw the text – some positive words about a new good thing in my life – I started to sob. That makes no sense!
Also sound familiar?
Natalie, thanks for the tip on how to put my fears and concerns first, followed by the but, followed by something that affirms my own self. I am dealing with some concerns in a relationship I would like to start with someone, so I wrote out a few statements like this. It is healing to have my own worries front and center. Then talk about what I am observing in the relationship and what I will DO to address my feelings.
An EUM can easily make it seem as though you are “high maintenance”. Actually you represent hard work which he is not up for. All he wants is the ego stroke and the sex. He leaves you feeling very insecure because he won’t allow you to relax and know that he really cares. If he provides too much reassurance he defeats his own purpose which is to get what he is after if and when he is ready for it and leave you high and dry whenever he feels like it. Then you’re left confused and don’t know how to approach him as he is like a bar of soap in bath water. The more you try to grab the quicker he slips away. This is not love. This is not fun. It IS EMOTIONAL ABUSE. Flush as fast as you can.
I always learn from your comments, Tinkerbell. They pull the wool from my eyes. What does ‘high maintenance’ mean anyway? That you want connection, engagement, to be taken seriously, and because you’re addressing an EUM brick wall, you are repeating yourself ad nauseum. HALLO ANYONE THERE?! As soon as you hear these words, or feel them about yourself, flush!
Today from the ex-MM: ‘My wife is trying really hard, BUT she’s not you.’ OOOOO. Sneaky.
Swiss miss
Is this the MM who ended his affair with you, in order to (allegedly) work on his marriage? Or perhaps placate his wife untill she starts to trust him again? He isn’t working very hard is he? He is treating you both really badly, why don’t YOU dump HIM and block him? This is just such a waste of your time and emotional energy and while you’re still in contact, then the affair is not over, and he will suck the life out of you. And yes he is very sneaky, and mean. This is deliberate, cold blooded, manipulation to prevent you from moving on. (That and entertaining himself! All this emailing and txting they do is, I think, like a porn habit – entertainment, passing time) Keeping you as an option for if and when he decides the coast is clear.
Mymble, “This is deliberate, cold blooded, manipulation to prevent you from moving on”. I agree and this is what the exMM is trying to do to me right now. After all that has happened, including the loss of my child, he is trying to keep me as a sexual option for when the coast is clear. I’ve already turned down one offer to go see him, but he’s now asked if I want to go to a “work related” conference with him early next year. This is despite the fact that I’ve told him not to treat me as a sexual object and after I donated all the money he gave me when I lost my baby. I didn’t want to keep any of it. He gave it to me because he said I needed a holiday, but it made me feel like a prostitute. In the midst of all this we have had two papers accepted for publication and are working on a third. This work is important to me, but I’m still hurting badly. I’m trying to keep it professional, but sometimes I slip up. Just entertainment for him, but so painful for me. But I’m stronger than before and I’m listening to my instincts. I won’t be going to the conference.
Lilly,
Good for you that you declined attending the conference with him! I just read over some of your recent comments, and it is clear that you ARE becoming stronger, and your insight seems to be growing also. I am cheering for you!
As for me, I have been having some of my own insights recently, and have returned to therapy, after the therapist had thought I was doing OK and had “terminated” with me. Reading BR can be difficult sometimes – realizing how many other people are hurting as we are – and I can’t always bring myself to read all the comments these days because of that. However, the growth it brings about is invaluable.
Hugs to you NC sister (5 months now) xo
Learner,
Yes, our insights are the key to getting through all this pain. Once we become aware there can be no going back, but it’s a painful journey! I’m happy you’ve returned to therapy. This stuff takes time and you need somewhere safe to talk about the issues as and when they come up. Thank you for recommending it to me because I don’t know where I’d be without it or BR, this has literally been my lifeline.
Can you believe it has been five months since we made the giant leap! Five months of sometimes searing pain, but at the same time protecting ourselves from more pain. I’ve learned so much. If we keep pushing forward the future WILL be brighter for us. No more AC’s ever!
Speaking of ACs the ex has gone very, very quiet since I’ve turned down his offers to meet up and “discuss research”. Once upon a time I would have jumped at the chance, all the time kidding myself that he wants to be with me. Well times have changed. I will never disrespect myself again. I’m feeling strong today!
Sending many hugs your way Sis and I’m always in the background cheering you on, xxx.
Best definition of this kind of creature ever! Bang on, thanks, Tinkerbell
Teddie,I second that. Brilliant Tinkerbell.
“All he wants is the ego stroke and the sex.” I can’t tell if that applies here or not. In the beginning I had some concerns and fears, then it slid into a nice groove and I felt very cared for, and then now there is this whole withdrawing thing happening and it seems he is withholding reassurance even though he knows I need it in a RL.
There are things that make it seem like your statement is VERY true (especially recently, in the last month or so). And things that make it seem like it doesn’t apply.
Am I showing the signs of someone who is being gaslighted? Ugh.
Anony, I feel for you, I’ve been in a similar position. It’s hard to tell exactly what is going on from your description, you seem to be unsure if ‘it’s you or if it’s him’. Some counselling for you to address your issues would be beneficial so that you can determine whether your expectations of another person meeting your needs is realistic (therefore he is EUM) or if you are carrying baggage of the steamer trunk variety into the relationship (which is a seriously heavy burden to expect a mere mortal to carry for you). I know I’ve carried sets of steamers in the past, working my way through to get to the carry-on variety
Tinkerbell,
“He leaves you feeling very insecure because he won’t allow you to relax and know that he really cares.” So well put. You are absolutely right. This is exactly how it was with my ex. My father who is an extreme narcissist did this to me as a child too. He never could quite consistently be decent to me for fear I get to much self esttem, call attention to his shite behavior and get the hell out. Which I did. The emotionally unavailable ex was just the same. You are right this cycle is extremely emotionally abusive. And if you try and play their game back it doesn’t work. You just end up being abused and emotionally abusive. And the emotionally unavailable man always wins. He made the game and he doesn’t play nice. These men (my exes) will go to such nasty spiteful lengths to get women hooked and under their control/power, The best solution is to spot these men, run, stay away and NO CONTACT.
Jennifer, that is so true! They always win. And the worst part is you end up playing unhealthy games yourself.
My EUM completely disappeared once I opened up to him and told him in all honesty that I had feelings for him and couldn´t go on waiting for him to make up his mind to take me seriously. It seemed this dismantled his whole strategy, it was the only way for me to maintain NC. If I had kept at trying to outsmart him (behaving like an EUW myself) things could´ve gone on into eternity.
My father is a complete narc as well. The thing I´m remembering now is that he once made me trip intentionally when I was little, and told me that was to teach me not to trust anyone, not even my own father. He thought that was very funny, I think it´s sick.
Another daughter of a narc father here. Yes, thy set us up to fail and to repeat this original relationship with men.
As for the EUM always winning the game…there is one very simple and highly effective way for US to win. DON’T PLAY. Recognize what they are and walk away. Pack up your toys and leave the sandbox.
They will be playing this game forever, repeatedly and never really winning. It’s an illusion as sure as the one they create to hook us. WE, meanwhile, will have moved on to find REAL love, happiness, joy and fulfilling lives.
Yeah, pretty sure my father was a narc too. Passive aggressive, giving with one hand and taking with the other, never giving approval, only showing emotion when it was negative. I cut him off years ago, he still plays his games, has everyone on ‘poor d****’s” side with his tales of ‘whoa as me my daughter treats me horribly’ – no I don’t, I just don’t treat him to anything anymore. I struggled for years with the cut off, but I had to do it for my own self preservation. He only looks for what ‘he can get’ not for ‘what he can give’. Money was a tool for manipulation as that was all he had to work with. As long as I recieved money from him, I was tied to him. Since I have become independant and not in need of his ‘generosity’, I have found that there was nothing else there but emotional pain between us. It did take a long time to cut the ties from him even as an adult, as I had no self esteem or confidence, so was not functioning well in my early adulthood to be self supportive. But when the ties were cut, the healing began.
And what brought me to BR is part of that healing. I’m also starting some intensive therapy today, and have committed to it up till christmas – christmas prezzie to me!
Jewells…
Are you sure we don’t have the same father??? Your description of your dad could have been written by me about my dad verbatim. Wow! I absolutely know what you’ve been through, how you’ve felt and have experienced the same destruction. Big Hug to you!!!!
Sorry I didnt mean to vent like that. Let’s just say like all of you here I GET the BUTS
From my parents every year I can recall of my childhood:
“We’d like to take you home to live with us teach BUT (insert 13 years of never ending excuses ALL of them BS!)”
From the exAC..
“I’d like to be in a relationship with you BUT I can’t give you what you need” (you got THAT right! I have no need of a CORPSE! shudder!)
From my father who adopted me at 6mths & who I found out was not my real father as a young pre teen…
“It’s great that you’re handling this so well & that you still think of me as your Father BUT I have a new family now & there’s no room for you in my life anymore” (promptly, disappeared. poof just like that. wow!)
From the pedophile I’m taking to court for violently raping me & murdering my unborn child in utero whilst I was an underage teenage girl:
“I know what I did was wrong, but if you remember, you didn’t come home the night before. Your friend dropped you off that morning & you’d had sex with him. I know you did! I could smell it on you! (Actually, I had not had sex with this person, a long time platonic friend, however, I digress)…
And lastly, that great excuse that makes it ALL, well, just perfectly ok then, at least according to my Mother (my sister accepts at least that no, mentally ill or not, what our Mother has done is NOT ok, b.c btw, she’s not THAT mentally ill, for goodness sakes, for if she was, I would be a tad more understanding) Rather, our Mother CHOOSES to be mentally ill b.c it just so happens to be a nice little cop out from taking any sort of responsibility for herself & her behaviour ie the classic borderline!
It’s no excuse BUT I was mentally ill!!
Hence:
The next person who “BUTS” on me in a harmful inappropriate manner, would be well advised to STAND CLEAR!!!!!
Ok enough from me now. Returning to you all. Im exhausted from battling my demons ovwr this one. You got me here Nat. Im definately a big steaming pile of BUT mad as hell still (which is totally FINE by me. I have a LOT to be mad about!) LOL
Joins Rev on the steps for a ciggie. I know me bad. Im stopping very soon. Just humor me huh? Collapses.
*sitting on the stoop with Teach while she puffs a well-deserved ciggie*
Teach–The people you speak of, those who were supposed to have your back but instead had a “but”? *shakes head* I just don’t have the words. I’m right next to you with a frypan of my own.
teachable:
I’d be happy to lend you my Viking broad-sword should you have need of it!
You girls are great and funny! I needed that laugh. Believe it or or not I worked through all of this stuff and had forgiven my Mother for it (& even told her this) & gave her a whole fresh slate to start with in my early 20′s. What did she do with it? Well. sadly, she took that opportunity to continue her abusive ways until finally a decade later (13 years ago now) I had to eventually cut off. I pit her really, as I suspect this latest attempt I am making WONT work out (because, again she has not changed) however it won’t be because I have not made an appropriate effort. Sigh… And yes, as you can imagine most ppl do say, why even bother. What can I say? She’s my Mother, and I have no Father? I do find great peace when she’s not in my life though so a very SHORT leash this will be (which is why I suspect she wont last long)…
@teachable: Just a word of warning: NC is NOT going to change your mother. If that is your goal, then what you’re doing would be “silent treatment”, not NC. The “silent treatment” has never truly worked on anybody, not on healthy people and even less so on toxic ones.
On the other hand, true NC with your parents is not a taboo. Have a look at k’s blog (http://theabilitytolove.wordpress.com/) to find another advocate of NC with toxic parents. For the records, NC (I mean, true, permanent forever NC, not some kind of temporary “coercive measure” in order to change them) with my parents was the only thing that has saved me from suicide.
Another observation regarding Unavailable Men. They get such a high/fix on breaking false confidence. I thought I was this super independent sharp tongued female and that no man could break me. I was rude/mean to men and I thought this made me drip with desirability. Yeah, only to the wolves looking to attack. My ex was an extreme mama’s boy. I mean it was sad. And he had a crazy need to hook/control/invalidate a woman. That young woman was me. I thought I could remain in control and numb to the bad behavior/deplorable treatment. I couldn’t. I got really really sick. I initiated no contact seven months ago. I am better for it and on the mend. Case in point be a decent realistic person/attract a decent realistic person or even better: be a warm loving yet assertive and strong human being with a sense of self value and esteem and get the same.
Also a funny anecdote to think of as a result of No Contact: After I broke up with the last abusive emotionally unavailable ex, I changed my phone number. I don’t know if he’s tried to text or call. I’d bet he’s tried to text. He was a heavy/shady texter. Anyway one friend said she’d been texting my old number by accident and that it’s some dude named Adam. Well the other day I accidently called my old phone number and some /scruffy/grupmpy deep voiced at least middle aged character irritatingly answered. I said, “Oops wrong number,” and quickly hung up. Then it occured to me, how sweet it would be if my ex was sending the usual sappy/creepy texts to this Adam and even called and he answered. Oh! One can only hope! The joy! You know I’ll never know if this is the case and ya know I’m PERFECTLY fine with this…and this is a Mr Unavailable fantasy I can let myself indulge in a bit. But as it involves the ex assclown it won’t be on mind for long b/c that a hole it slippin fast from my thoughts!
Jennifer,
We’ll know what happened if we start seeing Adam comment on here.
LOL.
Revolution, LOL. Love it!
haha, that is brilliant, Revolution!
Jennifer
I think having a good laugh at them (or the things that *could* happen is a great way to knock them off the pedestal and remind yourself that “They are just not that special”. Regard it as defence against the dark arts (in particular, Boggarts).
Reading Harry Potter to the kids ATM.
yes my mumble I do this. If ex narc creeps into my thoughts I make sure something vaguely nasty is happening to him. Nothing is going his way. My mates refer to him as Voldemort!! Abandoned by his mother at an early age, gets a kick out of hurting people, wants to control, wants power over others, doesn’t FEEL anything, cannot love.
Even on a level of basic language arts, “but” negates pretty much everything that came before it. Such a small word, yet such a powerful purveyor of the truth on many levels.
You are wise Spinster
I too got caught up in the words before BUT….
He came back saying he wanted to get back together, messed me around and then said ‘I love you, miss you, we click, I don’t think that I will ever click with anyone else as well as we do, I miss you when we don’t see each other BUT I don’t have the overwhelming feeling that getting married it is the right thing to do’…. I am still clearly haunted by that statement.
I was hooked on the first few lines and hung on for another couple of months while he looked around for someone better… what a fool.
When I look back now, I can see that he used the BUT for a lot of things which meant that he could sit on the fence for longer – wasting my time.
Swissmiss. Not very long ago I met a man online. After it was established that we liked each other I told him I was “high maintenance” , meaning the things you mentioned and more. I had to explain to him what “high maintenance” meant. When I used the term he had no clue what I was talking about, but when I met him on our first and only date, he had no trouble behaving like I was exactly that, and making me feel I wanted too much. All I wanted was to be treated with care, respect and decency, which was what I explained to him. I quickly learned he didn’t know how to deliver those qualities. But, to be more accurate, he just didn’t want to. It was too much trouble for him with all his degrees and high IQ. It all fell apart after a few hours. Looking back now, I must have unconsciously know he was a jerk or I never would have used that term to describe myself as they were perfectly legitimate expectations. Don’t use that term to describe yourself and run if someone applies it to you.
Tinkerbell, just a thought but I think we can become overzealous from reading BR! I think it would be very off-putting to any man/woman to hear a list of requirements and have someone self-describe as high maintenance before even meeting. I may possibly agree to meet them BUT I would already have a bad impression for them to overcome and probably be on the defensive, too. There is also the possibility that a really bad guy will just use your script to reel you in. I’m still working this out, too, but I think it’s more comfortable and effective to just let them unfold with your boundaries in place.
I got this one:
Yes I did cheat and that was wrong BUT you don´t make a lot of efforts lately to look or act sexy when I come home.
(This was right after my second child was born and I didn´t even have a notion of what day it was, only that my now ex came home after nine every day because he decided to learn a new language right at that moment and took classes after work.)
Argh don´t get me remembering all of that, BR ladies! Now I´m imagining what it would be like to break a bottle on his head.
I agree. Did we REALLY need to remeber all these BUTS nat ? LOL
Relationshit. That is funny. That is exactly what these men give us.
FX. Good point. I agree. Fortunately, I won’t be using that term, as I’ve been seeing a man who is just about everything I’m looking for. He has never made me feel that I had to state my “requirements” as he’s been very genuine and very respectful from day one. Plus, I’m learning more every day since returning to the dating world after many years out of it.
Tinkerbell
So true – if you need to tell them how to behave in a relationship – I mean the fundamentals – then the game is already over. They are showing you who they are and asking them to be someone else is futile.
I married someone with the intention of “changing” him; he even did want to change, but in the end he just couldn’t. Or maybe he just thought he did..but deep down he didn’t really.
Yes agree. If we have to show them a damned thing about how to be decent or respectful hidey ho – they can EFF OFF!
Is that plain enough language do you think? LOL
Teachable
I think that just about covers it, but just to be sure that actions are matching words, you might want to add in some appropriate hand gestures.
Confused123, it seems to me that the multiple dating thing is considered normal in American culture. I’m from Europe, and I consider it rude. When a guy say he wants to be exclusive, it just means he likes me, respects me, not that he loves me for god’s sake. If I found out my date is dating other women too, I would find that very disrespectful. It’s like he thinks I need to compete for his attention. No, thanks, dude, go find a monkey that will entartain you.
As far as I remember (correct me if I wrong), you were very uncomfortable with the idea he is seeing someone else too, but you somehow managed to convince yourself you’re fine with it. It doesn’t matter what women here (or anyone else for that matter) think about multiple dating; it’s how YOU feel about it that matters. No one can tell you what’s the “normal” pace in a relationship. You seem to be focusing on the things that don’t matter, but keep overlooking some big shouting red flags. For example, if you had your last EUM professing love in the first month of dating, you seem to think that a guy who doesn’t do that is a real keeper, while in fact he can be equally emotionally distant as the one before him.
Ask yourself if you’re feeling good with this man, and if your’re okay with being a second choice. Do not overthink it, FEEL the answer.
titi… Maybe the next time he wants to see her (confused123) she should say sorry but I have a date w/Joe that night
… Give him a taste of his own medicine. Knowing he is dating others means he is not interested in being in a serious relationship with anyone it seems to me..If thats OK with confused123 I say go for it. But for me it would make me anxious all the time & I would have to FLUSH ..
Anony,
I feel for you as it sounds so much like my ex-EUM (of 5 years)
He was attentive to me in some ways, like helping me with my new business and he’d say often ”You are such a good person”(but no progression, no initiation of discussions of a future together, me feeling constantly anxious he was going to leave me) I stayed WAY too long so I urge you to look at your feelings before 5 years have gone by and you are in the same situation. Certainly I cried after sex many a time, looking back that’s just awful.
Whenever I get nostalgic and wish things had have been different, and doubt my decision to end it finally … I remember:
On moving in together, after 3 years together. EUM: “Im old fashioned, my parents didnt move in together before they were married” (said at age 36)
On marriage. EUM: “I’m worried about getting divorced. I need to be 100% sure. I don’t believe in divorce”
On buying a house. EUM: (well he sort of got this right) “The property market will crash (so I will invest all my money in shares)” … Which subsequently crashed too…
On kids. EUM: “They’re so expensive. I only want to have kids when I can afford to not work”
“Children should be seen but not heard”
Me: “do you want kids?”
EUM : “of course”
After some pressure (read lots of tears from me) and looking at oh about 20 flats, finally on finding the perfect 2 Bed place to rent together.EUM: “I don’t like it. It’s opposite a [famous, really cool] music studio. I’m worried about the trucks in the street” (as distinct from living on a ridiculous busy high street in a 5 bedroom share house)
2nd go at convincing him to live together. EUM: “Moving in together is too expensive when I am contracting and don’t know what will happen with my job…” (on a 1 year contract at £600 per day!!)
Friend at a wedding shocked we were together 4.5 years together and still not living together. Told EUM this and that I was upset. EUM ” It doesn’t matter what others think, as long as we’re happy”!!
3rd go: (I know I’m an idiot!) EUM:”OK I’ll move in to your place. Do you want to see if J (my housemate) wants to stay too” (cheaper rent, tight-arse again!!!)
Endless excuses… All on his terms…Glaring red flags..!!
Yet I stayed.. Perpetually dating…I ruminated for a long time but in the end, I ended it.
At least we NEVER moved in together so we had none of that shit to sort out!
I went NO Contact immediately. I found Baggage Reclaim shortly after and all Natalie’s posts reaffirmed I was making the right decision to never speak again. I think if I had found BR sooner I may have realised what I was dealing with, as I suspected him of commitment phobia, but couldn’t quite understand it, and soooo wanted it to be different, making excuses that he was the one for me “so good on paper”
He never came begging. You cannot change someone. He just didn’t want to be the bad guy ending it.
Anony – be grateful you have all the other ladies wisdom to see what you are dealing with.
It is so hard to hard to let go but that pain you’ll go through will soon be well and truly over, and a much much better future is out there for you. Only you can decide but just to say time really does heal.
I have me, my confidence and my life back! I am thankful to be removed from someone who makes money their sole existence, and/or makes excuses out of it. Someone who would never make me, or a family with me, a priority.
Now I have healed and know I am a person worth being in a relationship with, I can spot red flags early on and take care to spend time only with positive people who bring something to my life.
For so many years I thought meeting that special someone was the be all and end all. But now I truly deep down believe it’s much better to be myself, even if it means meeting and dating a range of guys for all my life, than be for so many years again with a totally wrong person who brings me down.
All the best to you Anony and anyone not knowing which way to turn. Sending you strength! Xxx
titi,
This multiple dating issue is terribly confusing. I don´t really understand what the idea is? At least when you go on a job interview you´re competing for a position in which you´ll get paid.
I´ve lived in Europe as well, now I´m in South America and it´s unacceptable in both places. If you´re going out with someone, it´s understood that it´s a monogamous process leading to a relationship (whatever its characteristics), and if things don´t work out you move on. Going out with more than one person at the same time would be considered dishonest and rude.
The thing is, it seems “dating” (as understood in the US) is latching on thanks to internet dating sites. But as far as I´ve seen, people are using multiple dating as an excuse to sleep around with as many people as possible.
I couldn´t take someone seriously if I knew he was multiple dating, it would just mean he isn´t that interested in being with me.
At the same time, I don´t think any man would want any kind of commitment with me if I was dating others.
Lilia, couldn’t agree more. After reading thousands and thousands of words about this subject over the past months and discussing with friends ad nauseum, your brief, clear posting really says it all: “If you´re going out with someone, it´s understood that it´s a monogamous process leading to a relationship (whatever its characteristics), and if things don´t work out you move on. Going out with more than one person at the same time would be considered dishonest and rude… I couldn´t take someone seriously if I knew he was multiple dating, it would just mean he isn´t that interested in being with me. At the same time, I don´t think any man would want any kind of commitment with me if I was dating others.”
It’s the only thing that seems fair, decent and honest between people. Thanks for helping me clarify my own thinking about this.
Phew, I think I just had a lucky escape. I’ve moved back to the same city my ex lives in. We split 2 and a half years ago and have stayed in touch since. He’d been really flirting with me and asked me out for ‘drinks’ last week. It felt like a proper date, drinks bought, more flirting, a bit of touchy-feely stuff like his hand on my knee etc…
Fast forward to the end of the date and he says he wants to kiss me. We do. Immediately he states that he doesn’t know what it means that we’re kissing. Fast forward a few days……nothing. Not a peep. So I thought perhaps I’d invite him out for a coffee, to sort of gage the situation. He wouldn’t broach it, even when I hinted. Eventually I just came out and asked if we were OK. The answer?
Here it comes ladies: “It was great to be out with you, I find you very attractive, it was a lovely night and it was great to kiss you, but that’s it really, I’m not in the right place.”
He then went on to outline that he can’t promise me that he won’t have a few drinks some other time and want to kiss me again and then said it’s a shame that things get complicated as it would be nice just to keep it to sex!!!! ARrrrrgggghhhh.
So, I listened to the ‘but’ and decided he’s an ass. I’ve had enough!
Halva…. He is an ASSCLOWN !!! Go NC with him & forget you ever met him.
Also, I think he was just testing the waters to see how you would react to his advances.. He wants you as an “option”.EWE, kick him to the curb
Heh. Checked back over the past 2 months of chats…and it’s me the person with the buts. The more I look at things, the more I see just how afraid and stuck I am in the past. Even after 7 years of being on my own.
Time to let things go.
So, I am currently dealing with some major confusion and rejection- and it sucks…bad. For the past 3 months I was dating a guy I met online. At first he seemed very interested (constantly contacting me, making plans etc). When this started to dwindle I confronted him and suggested maybe he wasn’t ready to date, he got very defensive and told me he wasn’t wanting any type of relationship, and that he couldn’t see himself taking things to the next level with me. Of course I should’ve ran for the hills but I didn’t. We “worked it out” and continued to see each other for another couple months. I started to feel as though he was developing feelings for me…things were going fairly well. So I thought, until after hanging out last w/end. I recieved an email the next day(yes an email) saying he thought we needed to stop doing what we were doing. He told me he liked me, liked spending time with me, BUT just “didn’t have those feelings” and I didn’t understand why. He said he wasn’t afraid of commitment or getting hurt BUT he (again) just didn’t have feelings for me. The next day he was contacting me telling me he still “liked me” (whatever that means, grow up Peter Pan), but didn’t have all “the right feelings” and then followed that with but “I do want to clarify I DO have some feelings for you”. WHAT?! I have never been so confused. He said he wanted to stay in touch but I said it wasn’t a good idea….but I’m still bumming and I feel like a crazy person from dealing with this nonsense. Sorry for the novel here but I need some other people’s insight here…PLEASE HELP!!
emily… it never feels good to get dumped, but count yourself lucky that he at least told you he doesn’t like you in ‘that way’ after only a few months. he might be EU, he might not be. that is not the issue. he probably likes hanging out with you, getting sex, an ego stroke or whatever but he doesn’t have ‘those’ feelings for you. believe him.
yes, it might be nonsense and confusing, but he could have strung you along for months, maybe even years. he flip flapped a little, but i think it’s pretty clear.
you need to go NC, do the unsent letter exercise (it’s a good one), grief as much as you need to and then thank him for not stringing you along any longer. he’s giving you the opportunity to meet somebody who DOES want to be with you and appreciates you for who you are. hang in there. i know it isn’t easy.
Cut the drama. You don’t even know the guy properly (it’s been ONLY 3 months). He said he doesn’t want anything serious with you. However, with his “I like you” statement, he’s testing the ground, so that in case you don’t have healthy self esteem, he could get laid every now and then.
titi
And don’t let the fact that it’s only three months blind you to the complete lack of progression.
My situation is slightly different as I’m religious but by the three month mark, the boyfriend and I both specified we are seeing each other with a view to marriage. It’s not the same as fastforwarding. There has been no proposal, or “let’s get married” or “I want to marry you.” but “I see marriage in my future” “I want to get married one day and not too far away” and “What do you think about marriage?” This is a normal conversation. Maybe not at three months but he certainly shouldn’t be saying the exact opposite, ie he doesn’t want to take things to the next level and he doesn’t have the feelings for you to do that.
The feelings he has for you go like this, sorry to be blunt:
1. he feels that he likes having sex; you happen to be there and are willing
2. he feels that he is ready for a serious relationship (though I wonder) but not with you
3. he feels that he enjoys female company (we are gentle, supportive, feminine, and nurturing after all) and likes getting it from someone with no expectations
4. he feels that he’s been honest with you and that you are on board with this arrangement as you are still there
Your one and only way out of this is to exit the “relationship” (which I would consider more of a FWB arrangement) and instigate NC.
He’s broken up with you by the way, so you need to conduct yourself accordingly, ie don’t chase him down for crumbs or let him waste your time.
Don’t overestimate their feelings for you. I have feelings for my friends, colleagues, work and pet fish. I am in no way prepared to make a lifelong commitment to any of them. Except maybe the fish as they don’t live long.
“Except maybe the fish as they don’t live long.”
hahahaha I love this!
Emily G, cut this guy loose. I don’t mean to encourage game playing, but it can be useful to understand human dynamics: if a guy tells you, “I don’t think you’re very special,” he is communicating disrespect. If you continue to demand his affection, *you* are communicating that you have poor self esteem and are desperate for his approval, reinforcing his negative perception of you and extinguishing any attraction he may once have felt. In fact, you will become like a dead weight in his life, something he feels like he can’t get rid of, no matter how hard he tries. If, instead, you take the attitude, “Oh wow, I completely misjudged this guy; I thought he was smarter/sweeter than that,” and walk away (not in a melodramatic way but in a calm self-confident way), then you will make him wonder if he may have been wrong.
Of course, if the guy is EU (as yours seems to be), at this point he will start blowing wildly hot again: sparks, fireworks, flames. The trick is to not fall for the bait, as we all know what will happen if you go back with him. But maybe (just maybe) he’ll learn something of a lesson about the way he treats women and get closer to recognizing that he is going to need to do some work on *himself* if he ever wants to be in a relationship.
Thanks for all of the responses, they are greatly appreciated!! I get it, or I’m trying to…his flip flapping back and forth just threw me off. I have a pattern of dating and falling for guys like this. One would think the rejection would get easier but it never really does. I am finally understanding that the problem here is me and my level of self esteem. Overall I would say I am a confident individual until it comes to relationships. Maybe I’ve just been burned too many times or allowed myself to get burned. It’s all a work in progress, I’ll get it right one of these days! I do not plan on speaking with this particular guy anymore…the NC is already in the works. His response to me saying we should no longer talk was “I think you are worth much more than you think that I do. Sorry for all the pain.” Ouch. I’ll be okay though, I always am. Thanks again ladies!!
EllyB, You have experienced mobbing. I experienced the same thing as a child & as an adult in two workplaces. You did not ’cause’ or attract this ‘gang up’ style of bullying in any way. You most likely do posses traits which unknowingly contributed to why you were targeted. Are you a top performer at work? Do you consistently out perform your peers? Are you attractive, outgoing, vivacious? These are the traits which people who are targeted by mobbers posses. Google mobbing & learn about it. Then come sit next to me & as we make our way through BR I will be more than happy to shelter you a lil under one of my big steady wings. Remember you did not CAUSE this. Something bordering mighty close to this was even attempted toward me (for like 2 secs) when I first came to BR! I spoke my part & it soon stopped.
Hold your head high. I am most adept at handling mobbers. What they have NO IDEA of when they first have crack, is who they’re messing with. lol. The two work episodes I mention BOTH ending up paying me & nice fat little lump sum compensation payments for their disgusting behaviour. lol. Like I said, I can show you how to handle bullies, gangs (or ‘mobbers’ ) even, just fine!
Hugs. T xxx
LOL @ mymble!!
Ellyb I was having genuine NC with my mother & indeed intended it to be permanent (after she began this by refusing to allow to have her phone number or address, for no reason whatsoever other than some imagined minor infraction (I think it was that I did not return her call quickly enough), & the manipulative games she plays being a ‘borderline’, after she had moved. This, after at the time, I had just recently coughed up $3000 to pay her unpaid bills, with no expectation of ever being repaid, simply because she was a pensioner & I was trying to be kind & working full time, & could easily afford it, was just the last straw…).
I am indeed considering requesting that if she wishes to reinitiate any sort of regular contact that it be on the condition that she agree to us attending therapy together so that our differences can be spoken about in a safe environment & my expectations as to what I need in order to have a relationship with her is made clear.
Interestingly, I have been asking her for this for over 25 years but she had always refused. Now that she is having counselling herself though, perhaps her view might have changed? Also, perhaps if she realises she will lose me for good if she doesn’t make some sort of an effort it might help the penny to drop because I think she can see that for all intents & purposes she already very much lost me, years ago… In this sense, her task is to see if the relationship is repairable. Mine is to see if I can forgive her. I’m not sure yet to be honest. I forgave the child abuse decades back but the adult abuse is a whole fresh wound. It’s her job to fix though & I’m not doing her work for her. I have my hands well & truely full dealing with the fallout her abuse has caused…
Otherwise, I agree, nothing will change, & to frank, I just cannot be bothered going through her BS all over again. It is my greatest sadness, & indeed somewhat tragic, that truth be told for the last decade, after being more hopeful when I was younger, I have finally given up, & instead just been quietly waiting for her to pass away (not in a mean spirited away) so I can finally have some lasting peace… understandable I guess but a sad indictment on her parenting, to say the least.