Have you ever had that disconcerting experience of being accused of something you haven’t done and it turns out that the person is in essence, working up a case against you because they have done something to you (that you don’t know about yet) or they feel guilty about something that they’ve kept hidden (possibly including from themselves)? It’s as if they need to create a situation so that they can feel justified in having done what they’ve done.
Ah! The joy of projection!
A friend was at a group dinner with her husband and several couples and spent time talking to her friend’s husband. One of the women spread a rumour afterwards that my friend was having an affair. I laughed at the time and said, “I’d lay bets she’s having her own affair”, and lo and behold, it all came out a few months later that she was.
I experienced projection when a relative claimed that I had an issue with her even though I didn’t. Her ‘evidence’ was to take situations and re-cast them as a personal attack. As an example, my 5-year old was a bit moody after school one day and rather than it being that it’s because she’s five and worn out from a busy day at school and possibly a bit ‘hangry’ (hungry + angry), it became, “Natalie must have told her to be funny with me because she has a problem with me”. Quite a leap, and she apologised for the “misunderstanding”. OK, I thought, but I wondered what was really behind this. Then it all came out about how weeks before, she’d said some inappropriate stuff behind my back to my mother of all people (HE-LLO!) and all while smiling to my face and making out that she was cool with me. The ‘secret’ and those feelings she was masking found a way to show themselves and so they were ‘relieved’ by creating these situations and projecting. This also happens when celebrities, politicians etc., try to change the story by inserting themselves into it, only they’re re-cast as a victim, or by smearing someone else, or throwing in another story to distract from the real issue.
Many of us have projected at some point in our lives. It’s something that we do unconsciously and when we’re out of touch with how we feel and are not as self-aware as we could be, or we’re going out of our way to suppress and repress our emotions, we relocate our feelings in others. We carry on as if they share our feelings, so, “I feel this way so you feel this way too”, or we attempt to distance ourselves from what we deem to be uncomfortable feelings and thoughts, so, “I don’t want to admit that I feel this way so now I’m going to say that you do”.
We also engage in projection when we make judgements about people that aren’t based on very much. Even if we haven’t had personal experience of it, we might for instance, decide that somebody is really uppity or unfriendly or whatever, and then be surprised when they’re not that way at all.
Sure, sometimes projection is the ‘positive’ one which can result in the whole Betting On Potential stemming from our desires and us then projecting our ideals onto a person so that we can realise and experience our desires, but projection invariably can, particularly when we’re on the receiving end of it, cause us to have that whole mind effery feeling. It’s like, What the frick is this person talking about? Are we living on the same planet or talking about the same thing?
It’s particularly unpleasant when it’s ongoing because we don’t know how to make the problem go away. We end up defending ourselves, explaining and re-explaining, reassuring, being super mindful of our behaviour to keep the peace, and all that it does is temporarily reassure that person against their doubts and then the moment that those feelings and thoughts that they’re hiding away start to poke out, it starts up again. They might pick fights or have one of those disproportionate responses that alerts us to the fact that there’s something else going on behind the scenes. Many BR readers have found themselves on the receiving end of anger that hasn’t been directed to the appropriate person and so it’s projected on to them. We can feel quite wounded and confused when this happens.
When someone is projecting because it’s really about how they feel and/or what they’ve done, we get accused of stuff that’s often completely out of left field, or innocent stuff gets twisted around to suit the story that’s already in their head. They often don’t want to budge from the story!
That’s really when we know that projection is crossing into that damaging territory because as humans, we’re all guilty of making judgements but it’s more than a step too far when a person is unable to distinguish between what they think/did and what you think/did. It’s too much when they’re not open to another version of events.
They’ve made up their mind and to back away from it is to bring down the story that’s protecting them from their true feelings and thoughts.
This is why it’s important for us to know ourselves and to be able to discern where we end and others begin. When we don’t, we’re inclined to be Blame Absorbers, quick to take ownership of other people’s feelings and behaviour. Owning our own and letting others own theirs won’t stop us from feeling peeved and hurt when we get accused of stuff but it does mean that after the initial response to the injustice of it all, we have that moment where it’s, Freeze. Whoa- wait a flippin’ second, and we focus on the facts and not letting them unload their stuff on us.
We can ask ourselves, “What’s really going on here?”
Somebody who values their relationship with us and is willing to tune into and recognise their feelings will be able to step back, get some perspective, and face what’s really going on. What we find annoying in others often points to something that we also need to address within ourselves, not because that will fix their behaviour but because it’s awareness about maintaining our integrity on the things we claim to value.
Someone who is afraid of their feelings or who is the type who when they’re in the wrong, they dig themselves into a bigger hole, will get wound up by the presentation of facts or keep trying to bulldoze with the same or even worse claims. It’s at this point when we have to stop engaging. We can say our piece and as bloody infuriating as it is to be accused of stuff and even have our character called into question, we have to let the chips fall where they may. The more we try to convince is actually the more suspicion we create in people who are basically looking for a reason to have an issue.
What projection also teaches us (aside from the absolute criticalness of knowing ourselves) is about how a person thinks, what they may be dealing with (which may give us an opportunity to be compassionate in recognition), or how we are perceived. In olden times (pre-BR), I would make other people’s stuff about me and so of course I’d feel horribly wounded, but now, sure I’m still going to get upset but I temper it with compassion and healthy boundaries.
Say it with me: That’s not mine. It’s theirs and I’m sending it right back!
Sometimes we learn that a person doesn’t really know us at all or that how we see the ‘connection’ isn’t accurate, or sometimes, when we know ourselves and aren’t afraid to be vulnerable, it also presents an opportunity to learn about how we’re seen and that in itself, when we’re able to discern any useful information within that, can be used to help us grow.
Your thoughts?
Are you ready to stop silencing and hiding yourself in an attempt to ‘please’ or protect yourself from others? My book, The Joy of Saying No: A Simple Plan to Stop People Pleasing, Reclaim Boundaries, and Say Yes to the Life You Want (Harper Horizon), is out now.
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the first month I was going out w/ a new bf, he got quietly infuriated any time I texted when he was with me. I didn’t text much, just to family and I kept it short. I decided to stop texting when he was over. agreed that it was rude. A little while after, I started going to his amateur baseball games. While I loved watching, they were over 2 hrs long. So I would scroll thru my phone occasionally. I also struck up a friendship with other wives/gfs watching. During one game, bf sat w/me after an inning. He started on me about not paying attention to the game. He kept up the complaining all the way home, harping on my talking about my ex-husband to the women. And who was I texting during the game. I was so put off by his irrational jealousy, I stayed away from him for a while.
Eventually, he apologized. Said he was feeling insecure. I stopped texting during games. Stayed off the phone when he was over. situation blew over.
A year and a half later, I discovered why he was so suspicious: *he* was a serial cheater and liar. *his* phone was full of texts from other women. Ha! Talk about projection! It was like a Maury show scenario: the more the innocent party is accused, the guiltier the accuser is.
Exactly. Plus, let’s be honest, baseball isn’t that compelling. There is lots of down time. I say this as the daughter of die hard ATL Braves and SF Giants fans.
Your ex wondered why YOU weren’t secretive about your texting. Surprise! Not everyone is cheating on each other!
Glad that you aren’t with him any longer, ariel84. :>
My ex-husband is extremely narcissistic as well as a master emotional repressor and suppressor, which likely explains his “need” to deflect and project. Of course, in my mind, he had tremendous potential (my projections onto the person I’d hoped and dreamed him to be!)
I now carry the visual of holding up a shield to deflect his shit, and a shovel to throw it right back at him! The other “defense” is a visual of him as medusa and me holding up a shield so that the shit is deflected and projected right back onto him (it’s rightful owner!)
Sadly, I owned and internalized the shit projections for many years– and am now going through some heavy-duty “detox” in order to exorcise those demons. I wish I’d had the shield and the shovel years earlier!!
This is one of the main reasons why I got rid of my ex-roommate, this crap happened over and over, so I tried compassion then drew the lines, and when it happened again and with more intensity, bam! off you go ex-roomie! Life has been soooo much better since.
Thanks for this, Nat.
I have been trying to put my finger on it for years and this explains my relationship with my family to a T. I love them dearly but I can’t stand how I get such anxiety and tremendous frustration around them…I spent years blaming myself, putting myself down, trying to please them, and trying to understand why I can’t make them happy. It’s only been in the last year that I finally figured out the issues are their own, and as a grown adult I cannot convince any of them to seek help to solve their issues or empower them to want a better relationship with me. I’ve tried countless times, and it never works.
I’m still pretty frustrated because I feel like it’s a lose-lose: either walk away and detach from them because I can’t handle it, or try to stay in touch and keep working at the relationships. I don’t think I will ever be happy with my family dynamics because of my expectations. The things I struggle most with is letting go of the hope that I will one day have the healthy, fulfilling relationships I see others have with their parents and siblings. Accepting this may never happen (and being kind on myself for having tried!) is really hard.
Yes Pheonix Rises – I am at a similar juncture from your description and it has been overwhelmingly shocking to me even though I knew all the details of all the situations, but after having no contact for 6 or 7 months at a time and then testing and retesting how things go several times over the past 6 years – and the same feelings/situations re-occurring over and over again – no matter what strategy or how good I am – I am finally getting to the happy place of knowing that my ‘loving/caring’ family was…. a fanciful fantasy of mine/projection and I am actually happier/safer and more confident living in reality – where people unconnected to them treat me with respect and care and if they don’t – goodbye, love and sunshine to them.
For years I could not understand why strangers treated me better than my own family and why I was so drawn to them? (I was soooo greatful) – I reasoned deep down that it was because they didn’t know the real (terrible) me – only when the strangers that I felt secure with and chose to have more contact with and expose my vulnerabilities – repeatedly rated me better and made me feel better than my own family who took advantage of me everytime – rarely changing from being judgmental and negative whether I asserted myself or was totally submissive to their needs.
I am beginning to feel – maybe strangers respecting me because they didn’t know me – wasn’t the whole story? – people who I know outside of my family, whom I listen to my instincts on fully and can be vulnerable with safely – make me feel great and its such a difference and I am seeing tangible results around me in my environment, its hard to ignore it anymore.
People with healthy family upbringings don’t spend all their time around their family, waiting for external validation – they develop their own families – and I am hoping to do the same regardless, bit by bit – starting with validating myself – I figure its better than banging my head against a brick wall! and that’s exactly what I have to remind myself what is going on in reality every-time I seek any true relationship or respect or feeling of love and care from them – whether I show them ‘love’, send them a mothers/fathers day card + present or not.
The only thing that has kept me anywhere near sane through this is developing and learning who my true self is, listening to myself and living my life by it and realizing I am actually quite happy with myself as I am on my own.
You don’t have to tell your family that is it – until or unless you feel that’s what you must do – you can simply assert your right to privacy and no visits/chats/texts or emails – when you want to – you don’t even have to answer the phone/text/door if necessary.
They have no rights over your life at all but you do have the right to be good to yourself, respect your instincts and feelings and act on them, firstly, above and before all others.
Thing is while we spend/waste time fantasizing and acting on our fantasy family relationships – our real life and real relationships slip on by…
wow, thanks for your post. I’m actually going through this with my family members.Sometimes you just have to let relationships go, stop tryin, stop caring.
Yes Lana – its very hard to stop caring about your parents completely but it sadly doesn’t surprise me that others on BR also have similar experiences with family – it after all is where we first learned how to conduct relationships badly – twisted survival instincts in your conscience that are primal and mixed with mirroring their poor behaviours and understanding from them, sub conscious, societal and peer pressures to remain in the family and ‘forgive’ them (you are a bad person if you don’t have a good relationship with them), poor learning from their past handed down and lack of a real supportive group around you – all step in – the brain may say one thing but the heart says another over and over again and you hope to anything that it isn’t real.
In order to assert my right to not be ambushed regularly in my home with more visits to ‘rescue me’ when I’m not the one who needs rescuing (unless they are around) and results in more stress for me and emotional abuse.
Or suffer from them getting my bored neighbours and community to happily join in, interfere and intervene – as entertainment – when they cannot get directly to me – I have threatened the police and I mean it.
I have spoken to the police – provided them with all the information, got a management plan for emergencies and got the issues recorded with them and the next step/support for me is to have them charged with Harassment – which will mean they have a total ban on contacting me and visiting completely.
This is a last ditch and I never believed I would have to go to such lengths to have my boundaries respected with my own parents but I have been in denial and this is where they have pushed me to in reality and it is where I will go to get support if they continue.
If they really wanted a relationship with me and had my real best interests at heart I know they would have listened to me and have stopped these shananigans years and years ago – I know because others listen – interestingly they don’t do this to my golden boy brother who has grown into a wonderful success. They are frightened of him because he has a very aggressive/violent temper which they are completely aware of from teenage years and so respect his boundaries.
Now as they really like to look good – to others – and the martyrs in this situation – I am sure – if going on past experience – they will temporarily listen and then twist this latest development/clear boundary – to their own advantage at some point (ie they are the victims) – to show how ‘crazy’ and ‘dreadful’ and ‘mentally ill’ I am and behave towards them – without mentioning – that three times I clearly and politely stated this month through texts (because I can’t trust them to be honest about phone conversations and remember) – ‘visitors are not acceptable currently and I will let you know when’. Alongside the history – conveniently forgotten – of telling them clearly – the last time they did it – it is not acceptable to drive 300 miles to someones home – uninvited and unannounced – especially when they have been told no thank you currently (and do not currently have a trusting relationship with them – as they really know).
When they sent me a text saying they are here – I let them know I have contacted the police and that I hope they have a lovely weekend and safe journey home but I am not at home.
At which point the texts coming in strangely changed to overly nice thanking me for my texts – attempting no hint of harassment in sight – – – only they forget I have all the other texts they have sent – alongside my own knowledge that I now know what it actually feels like to genuinely love and respect and care for myself and provide myself with real support.
To some this may seem something and nothing ie no violance, no obvious signs of verbal abuse or property damage – what is the problem? But what they don’t know is all those things have happened in the shadows in the past, where no one was witness or able to support me when I was a child, where I was unable to defend myself physically or mentally and these things are all implied and remembered traumatically – in every step of them continuing their game.
The point is – not that others don’t know – but that I do know how they make me feel – I am the only one who knows and experiences it – and I have pretended it was all fine and all me – for most of my life – I cared – I cared alot but I now am caring so little the more they mess around – the more I see and know – if they persist in their game they will run themselves out because I am not playing anymore – I don’t even care if they do.
Well, Phoenix, you are not alone. I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt when they don’t have relationships with their parents because I don’t think that is any fault of yours, and I know it isn’t of mine (they both abandoned me when I was young, so it couldn’t be) but then unfortunately I find I am giving the benefit of the doubt to rather damaged people. But I can’t help it, I won’t judge someone on their relationship with their family, because I don’t want them judging me on me with mine.
Having been someone who survived two abusive families; yeah, don’t throw us under the bus because of who we had the misfortune to be born to. The important thing is whether a person healed from the experience, came to grips with it, and CHOSE not to be their family vs trying to fix the past with present people or continuing the cycle of abuse. Basically, one can learn from a bad experience or you can let it destroy you. “That which doesn’t kill you makes you stronger”.
Yes I think – choice – is a key difference to whether you are damaged or thriving after any abuse.
Thanks guys–this is something I am still working through with a therapist, as I believe all our relationships in life are connected. Much like Nat teaches, if you can’t get your self-esteem/boundaries/values in check, you won’t have good relationships with anybody–whether it be a boyfriend, sister, work colleagues, etc. I am also learning to readjust my expectations of those around me based on their actions.
Yes I think the last part you talk about, Pheonix rises, is the important next step – readjusting expectations of people based on their actual actions – not the fantasy story that has been running all along to ‘protect yourself’ which in fact maintains the abuse in my experience.
Absolutely, Oona! The relationships are there to teach you something. I’ve starting looking at every interaction as “what can I learn from this/what is this experience helping me to learn about myself (and the other person)”. When approached that way I can choose a healthy response which allows me to access my power. There is power in the ability to choose rather than falling into the reaction of the old pattern of being the helpless victim who has no choices. It takes practice like most things, but becomes a habit in time.
When a person shows me they will exploit my kindness I take note and firm up my boundaries with them. If they are abusive, I stay away from them. I do not deserve that, I never have.
Great point Veracity! Yes, every interaction is teaching us something, and I would add that even what you think it is teaching you can be made much more flexible. E.g. I find myself trying to take a more positive account of what people think or why they did something – well, maybe they are stressed so they are doing x. This doesnt excuse them, it explains it somewhat and humanizes them. It doesnt mean I need to put up with their bad behavior – in fact, maybe what I learned is that this person is so immature that the slightest stress makes them be impolite etc. Thats a loose cannon I dont need in my life.
Once I have clear evidence that someone is on my side, long-time friend, colleague, family member etc., I have to discount and overlook minor transgressions. Those are not in fact teaching me anything about them, though I still make choices in how I respond – preferably by cutting them some slack. Its complicated how to build these boundaries – but I think one thing is clear, we know over time the people that are consistently there for us (with minor slip ups from us and them along the way as is natural) and those toxic people that are never there for us but somehow hook us (they are a constant set of slip-ups and we keep trying to get something from them which hardly ever manifests).
Excellent post! Had this done to me and it was quite disconcerting. To be accused of things so out of left field was astounding to say the least. He was so good at it though, that I actually began to believe him over my own gut instinct. I began second-guessing myself and wondering “did I really do that?” and thinking maybe it WAS me. Mind fuckery indeed. Once he even called me “the queen of projection” when, in fact, it was HIM projecting his own shitty relationship behaviors onto ME!!! Sweet Baby Jesus – I should’ve run away right then and there. What a Class A jerk!!!
Totally
figuringitout, I’m glad you’re out of that situation.
The first thing abusers try to take from you is your perceptions.
If you’re around someone – anyone – and come away thinking “Did s/he really say that? Did that just happen? Am I imaginging things?” RUN! Get away!
Playground bullies and adult harrassers and abusers (“love” partners or bosses or “friends” or cult leaders or salespeople) always try to seperate you from your accurate perceptions.
If you’re interested in the topic, Lundy Bancroft’s “Why Does He Do That?” (about spotting and avoiding abusers) and anything by Robin Norwood are eye opening.
To clarify my above comment; I’m not recommending that you never get introspective or cast a critical eye on yourself – after all we all do have a blind spot and don’t always recognize when we ought to adjust ourselves to others – but harrassers, bullies, abusers, salespeople and cult leaders all take advantage of empathic people by using sales tactics that increase attention on oneself, increasing self doubt.
In the book of Genesis (the creation story of three of the world’s major religions – doesn’t mean it’s literally true, but it’s interesting to note if only because our common ancestors all agreed that the wisdom in it was worth preserving and passing down) the serpent FIRST suggested a “problem” to Eve, there in paradise, then offerred a solution! This is a an old, old sales technique that WORKS until you understand its mechanics.
Abusers use empathy and self doubt (good traits of good people) AGAINST others! The antidote is to do the opposite of the hypnosis that the salesman / abuser / cult leader hopes to induce, which is to remove focused attention and doubt from oneself and onto the speaker.
Wow this is a great analogy thank you.
Thanks Dumpcakes! The entire “fake” relationship really was an unbelievable experience – one I am still trying to get over. However, I will never make the mistake of lingering for so long with someone who ultimately didn’t give a crap about me. Working on how I let myself be fooled. This site has been an incredible resource. I will never let someone’s crazy-making games get to me again!!!
Hello everyone, I think it is applicable here but there is I think some kind of Chinese? saying about revenge and sitting by the side of the river and waiting for your enemies to come floating by – its true – amazingly in my experience people expose themselves eventually because sooner or later if I am not owning their guilt repeatedly (or others)- they have to.
Its not easy doing the waiting part – without actually knowing what is really going on (sometimes years) and not simultaneously assigning it to yourself by default but some sceptism is alot healthier than owning stuff that actually doesn’t belong to me and has improved my confidence/happiness and asserting myself no end. One of the things I do now is ask, ask, ask questions whilst not admitting or denying anything until I know for sure what is going on. My favourite being…
Really?!… and ‘are you sure?’
Goodbye Naivity Hello healthy Maturity!
Hi Oona.
Yes I agree that the most terrifying vengeance is meted out by fate or God. Sometimes worse than death, it rivals anything a human can execute and is superior to it. I’ve seen it. Eventually, a haughty person’s foot slips.
I once had this friend who got pregnant and then accused me of not being happy for her because she knew I hated kids! I was gobsmacked, while I didn’t have kids myself, I had no issue with kids, and was quite close to my young niece. I basically stopped talking to her. I thought it was SO weird. Fast forward a few years and she apologized to me and when I asked her why she had said that, she said that it was her own issues. I admired her honesty and accepted the apology. But damned if a few years later, she got pregnant again, and then said the same thing to me! She was literally like, “Diane, I’m pregnant, and I know you don’t like children and won’t be happy about it …” WHAT?! Are we back to this? Literally, I had never ONCE spoken to her about her children, she lived in another state and I rarely even spoke to her. I can only conclude that this was some bizarre projection thing. It was SHE who didn’t like children, and would tell her childless friends it must be them! Really weird!
Diane gob-smacked means hit across the mouth? Literally, I mean? If so then the word is a perfect description of what she did to you. You were there sitting peacefully minding your own business and listening to her, and she suddenly hits you with a “projection”. 🙂
Best, V.
On a more serious note, if you want to go ahead and open a Pandora’s box, you can tell your friend that it’s not true that you dislike children, and that you suspect that on the contrary she is the one who doesn’t. And you can tell her that that is okay too. That you are not going to judge her, nor does she have to pretend with you that she likes so much being a mother (like she probably pretends with her husband, family and in-laws).
Sometimes just letting off steam can do wonders, maybe she can enjoy her motherhood better if she finds an outlet for this part of hers that must be very frustrated. V.
Thanks, V, but no, I do not speak to her anymore. I gave her one more chance and then she did the same thing and I’m over it. The friendship, such as it was, was not worth keeping — besides, we hardly ever saw each other anyway.
Hm, the definition I have is “utterly astonished; astounded.” But no, no one hit anyone 🙂
About wanting our families to be like those “other” happy families….I hope we aren’t comparing our lives to fantasy TV families. I’ve just read Natalie’s earlier posts about the dynamics we have with our fathers and our mothers that often recreate themselves in unhealthy relationships. The comments showed me that many of us heard very negative messages while growing up. Then I thought about a former BFF, she was a stunningly attractive girl, yet I remember her mother spewing nothing but vitriolic comments about her looks and her life options to that BFF….yet at the same time she kept that BFF tied to her purse strings.
So I’m thinking that this unhealthiness in family dynamics is the dominant scenario in most peoples’ lives – not the Brady Bunch or the Waltons. And the actor who played the father on the Brady Bunch was actually gay, you know.
Just this week I had two encounters with strangers where I was my typical Pollyanna self and they immediately spit back with some negativity, and both times I felt a wall come down in my brain and I just said ‘”whatever” and wrote them off. That is a plus for me. I immediately stopped caring to engage.
My mind is replaying numerous occasions where I have been flummoxed by my mother’s projection of thoughts, they have no basis in reality, and they are about her thinking I am trying to stop her from doing something or take something away from her. I tell you I have NO IDEA where she comes up with the stuff. I am also seeing how many of my ideas she claims as her own, so much so that and old boyfriend of hers once tried to build me up by pointedly saying “that was a good idea YOU had, Elgie.”
OMG.
The NPD coworker who has been a blessing in disguise because her craziness led me here had one catch phrase that I am learning to love: “You do you and I’ll do me.”
I was running an errand today which takes me by a now ex-friend’s house and it got me thinking about the last interaction we had, which you nailed on the head. It was blown out of proportion, assumed many things about me, and the more I tried to explain it to her the worst she behaved. It was crazy-making because I wasn’t coming from the place she thought and her behavior was so dreadful that it made me not care if she made it up to me later. I was astonished at how deeply angry and hateful she could be. And very selfish. I felt sad too, because if she could have stopped herself or found some humility to apologize I would have forgiven her, but as it is she is so caught up in her story, her ego and her victim energy that I don’t think we’re going to friends again. I prayed for her today, that God reach her and teach to have humility and to get her through her pain. Your post really hit the nail on the head what I was feeling, as always.
I was once accused of ignoring someone. Looking back, they were essentially ignoring me: they’d say hi but run off before I could respond with anything or they’d ignore me in certain situations. It was hard to read them and decide whether it was safe to approach them in a friendly way, and in the end, well… Nothing really happened! Hah!
Nat, this is a GREAT post- never read something so accurate and comprehensive about projection!
Projection does not only leave us confused and hurt, it sometimes makes us physically and pyschologically ill. That’s what happens when you are with a narcissist. I ended up with HIS stuff – anxiety, stomach pain, sleeping disorders, fatigue – after he’d projected and unloaded all that onto me. At least, I woke up just in time and started to face my co-dependence issues- which I had ignored for decades. So there was something positive about the whole experience as well.
Alice I hope you get stronger and happier as you get further and further away from his negativity. The experience with a narcissist/s is so dreadful – you have to learn or else – you are right at least after learning from this experience, you may approach relationships more aware.
My ex-boyfriend (the one I was with for 7 years who brought me here to BR) projected on to me his cheating and his lying. Our relationship came to its final end when he accused me of sleeping with someone and then lying about it. He humiliated me and this particular person to the point where it ruined any friendship I had with this guy.
This 2nd guy is the U-turner I have spoken about in previous posts.
Even now almost 3 years after the event, although coming to the conclusion that I did have feelings for this man (u turner) – the guilt that was projected on to us ruined it from the start to be honest. I am not saying all of his u turning ways are down to this but guilt and shame have a habit of sticking. Very hard to shift.
I still actually feel guilty about what he had accused me of, even though I hadn’t done it. The feeling was that powerful.
It took me many years to truly accept what I already knew. That he was the one lying to and cheating on me. I even know who he was lying and cheating with. I felt it all along. That feeling was just as strong as my denial.
He had also cheated on me once before so I knew he was capable of it again, knew the signs and I cannot emphisize it enough. I KNEW it because of the way he was behaving and projecting.
I told a friend once that often the people who speak the loudest about NEVER doing a certain thing, are often the ones doing it. – That in itself is a warning.
It still makes me sad to think about all the projections I absorbed, that I let seek into my core and lower my self esteem.
Of course projection was just one of the tools he had in an arsenal of self-esteem attack. But it is one of the ones that hurt the most.
This is excellent, and my favourite bit is the point about compassion. After hurting me badly, someone once went on a rampage of blaming me for the very things he did, countered every negative thing I said about him with “No, YOU did that!”, and even bashed a mutual friend who did to her husband pretty much exactly what he did to me. At the time, it made no sense and made me question my sanity – could I possibly just be completely wrong and it WAS me who said X and did Y? Now, after a long while, my anger and hurt is increasingly lined with compassion and pity. I think that somewhere deep down he felt horrible about how he was treating me and he knew it was wrong. He felt so horrible, in fact, that he was unable to face those feelings and instead turned all his sadness and guilt into anger and created a fiction in his mind to keep himself from falling apart. Likewise, I had to for a while create a fiction to protect my ego, and it’s taken me a long time to unwrite that fiction. And the thing about these fictions is that they can be hurtful to others, and they can make it seem like you are happy and moving on or at the very least have justice on your side, but they really come from frail, scared places. At the time, it felt to me like he had “won”: he yelled louder than I did and refused to apologize even as I was grovelling about things I’d never done. And I got my little “victory” by demonizing him in my head. Now I can see how scared and lost he was and how paralyzed he was by those fears. Even as I was a crying mess, I had courage enough to face my fears. Who knows what the future brings, but in the long run I think I will be better off for facing myself in the mirror rather than projecting all the ugliness in my life onto others.
I agree we should not project the ugliness in our lives onto others. BUT. I take people at face value. I really don’t have time to be analyzing, making excuses for them and being overly generous spirited regarding their behavior. I figure adults should behave as such and when they don’t and behave like a#$es they should be called on it.
That is fair enough. It’s not on you to make excuses for people. Personally, I’ve found it to be helpful to ME to try to understand the motivations even behind shitty behaviour. I don’t consider it as excusing their actions – we always have a choice on how to cope with our issues – but it helps me get over the hurt they caused me. But to each their own – different things help different people.
I too try to have compassion for my ex who projected awful things onto me and did a great job getting me to own it. But it’s mighty hard to muster compassion for someone who (figuratively) had me on the ground and was kicking the crap out of me. It hurts to get the crap kicked out of you and it is NOT ok to do that to someone. Be a frickin grownup and deal with your sh!t.
Lucy. “We can just smile and walk away”. Fortunately I don’t into disageements or uncomfortable situations with people because I make sure I am not around people I’m not comfortable with. But, don’t you feel the need to speak up in your defense? Years ago I would lose my cool and tell people off. Now, I’ll try to speak up in the most diplomatic way I can muster (which is not much). When people treat me in a cavalier or rude manner I have to let them know. I cannot just suck it up and walk away. Most of the time the expression on my face speaks a thousand words so that I don’t have to say much. Some people possess the ability to tell someone all about themselves very thoroughly, calmly, with dignity. Wish I was one but my temper seems to take over. I do try to work on this.
Serene, I used to stand up for myself a little too much and quite aggressively. I was really bad at communication and asserting myself, I was passive aggressive and would let things people said burrow away at me until I exploded. The trouble is when you are dealing with people who are confrontational and angry, they are basically selfish and rude and no matter how much I rear up in their faces it will make no difference whatsoever. People who project their issues onto us normally have no insight into their own behaviour, otherwise they wouldn’t dare to be so arrogant.
I remember a girl bullying me at school, she just walked straight up to me and slapped my face. I looked at her and the ensuing throng of other peers and calmly said “don’t think I’m going to hit you back, I wouldn’t stoop so low” – I am not sure where this calm person came from as mostly I wanted to run. But after that, she never came near me. What I have learned from many disastrous Mr Unavailables and my family is that what they want more than anything is a reaction. By reacting they know they have scored. That is why I just smile and walk away, not because I don’t wish to defend myself but because I don’t wish to grace their childish and selfish behaviour with anymore time than I have to.
But that’s my way, it doesn’t mean its the right one. Though I do see the irony in you having a temper with a name as beautiful as Serene 😉
Lucy. You make some very good points which I have to accept as quite valid. I used to have in childhood until past my twenties a combative personality. As one gets older we mellow. At least I have quite a bit which is good because I was on a dangerous path. I’ve realized it was important for me to learn how to handle my anger particularly toward obnoxious people. My parents were sticklers about manners and it’s hard for me to deal with those who have no decorum and behave in an intimidating manner. So, I either spend my time with my own peaceful company or with my tried and true friends whose moods and idiosyncrasies I can gauge more easily. I’m retired from my work so I’m able to choose the company I’m in. As I’m much happier and evolved from where I used to be emotionally, others behaviors affect me a little less.
When I changed my name I also posted that it is something I aspire to be – Serene – and that I’m not quite there but working on it. Thanks for your comment.
It takes a long time to learn that others are projecting onto you and its always hurtful but once you recognise it, it is like a lightbulb switching on. I hadn’t spoken with my family for over 6 years and then due to a wedding invitation I got back in touch with my sister. We met for coffee and she spent the entire time running down my Father and telling me all about the things she had bought, what her 5 children had accomplished in all these years. Not once did she ask me about how I had been or how my daughter was. I sat there like someone watching a play. I was a pleaser growing up and all I sought was the validation of others. This website quite literally changed my life.
Now when boyfriends start to rant or kick off I no longer wonder what on earth have I done to upset him to this extent? I think, what a plonker. All you are doing is reaffirming all the things my gut was already telling me. It is so much easier to walk away from these people now.
I too rebuilt my life with friends, I now look for all my validation, support and love from those people and until I find the right one, it will never be from a man.
I actually learnt that the most important thing is exactly what Natalie says. It’s their problem, not yours and you can forgive them for the fact that their childhood was obviously similar to ours if they are feeling so insecure and hollow. The difference is that we learned to seek other ways, to make ourselves better people and that is what sets us free and that is why when someone projects onto us, we can just smile and walk away.
Hi, are you the Lucy who had the very difficult task of behaving more than politely to your ex-husband new partner/wife? I think I remember you. Regardless of this, I have a question:
is your father also your sister’s father (i mean no stepdads involved)?
If that is the case I really want to say something (and I do it with the best of intentions):
I have a sister too and she loathes my father. The point is that ‘Father’ belongs to her as much as he ‘belongs’ to me, and it is her right to love/hate him as much as it is mine to love/hate him. After all, she is his child too.
I go so far as to say that if you have a big issue with this, it might be that you were your father’s favourite, and that is a dangerous place to be. If you like I can clarify this better but before I run away with interpretations it may be best to wait and see what you think of it so far 🙂 V.
Great post. Having a relationship with a commitment-phobe really and dealing with all her projections and transferences will really test your boundaries and limits. How she tried (mostly successfully) to get me to own her issues. Over a year later, I’m still trying to pick up my pieces off the floor but posts like these really help. That was awful.
Yes, be aware and willing to own your crap, or get the hell out of the dating pool.
So thank you.
I also find this happens when a person is insecure or just not happy with their life, but feel the need to knock you down a couple of pegs by trying to make you just as insecure and pathetic as them.
You may not even think you exhibit any of the behaviors that are being projected onto you, until that person unloads their insecurities. Byway of verbal abuse.
I remember one time the AC ask me what I thought about the GNP (gross national product)? I was a bit perplexed, but I soon realized he was trying to test how smart I was!! He just assumed, I didn’t know what it meant, but I suspect he didn’t know anything beyond the basics. I believe he wanted to believe that I was uneducated to prove he was right about not taking me seriously. You would have thought he was so educated and had a degree, not! I found out later on that he didn’t even graduate from college!
I also suspect he probably was judged by other people because he didn’t have a degree. I’m not judging because going to college doesn’t define anybody, but when you are trying to insult someones intelligence level it helps to have some backup! He was insecure and it made him feel better to make me feel less than so I could be insecure right along with him!
I just watched an episode of Millionaire Matchmaker where one of the millionaires shamed his date for wanting to eat steak. He said “I just would have thought you would know that, because that’s a basic thing that all my ecofriendly friends know, is not to eat red meat.”
The matchmaker, Patti, went in on him and was like “How dare you! What’s wrong with steak” and he was like “Well, it comes from red animals, and that’s — I don’t really know the details. Patti: “red animals?!”
Case in point, this guy had no fucking idea what he was talking about. There is such thing as sustainably raised red meat and he didn’t even know it was cattle he was talking about! He was just using it as a way to brow-beat someone who had him in a vulnerable position.
When someone seduces you and reduces you…run!! I’m glad you see your AC for who he is!
Tangerine,
What’s even funny is he thought bcuz he took classes at Howard University (did not graduate) that he was sooooo smart and because I didn’t go to college at that time I was not as smart. But the funny thing was I was younger than him at that time, had a good job, my own place and a car and he had none of these things!! He just wanted to tear me down because he probably felt bad about where he was in his own life. I got the last laugh because I acutally went to college and earned my Bachelors and Masters degree and didn’t have to make anybody feel bad about themselves to get it! Booyah!!
Yep patti didn’t own his crap and without denying or directly defending herself – set about questioning his assertion – until the truth became clear and he had to own it.
Yeah, I’ve had those moments..where someone is trying to test how aware you are about whatever they decide to “test” you on – politics, economics, ecology, jazz, whatever. Flush, immediately. I’m not trying to “win”. I am OK with saying “I don’t know much about that, what do you think?” If they decide I am not worth their time, they are doing ME a favor. If you need discussions about what you deem “socially important” to prove personal worth, you are missing the boat in terms of relating to another human being. Go find a debate team and leave me alone.
Yeah! Woohoo, Elgie!
Elgie R. “Go find a debate team and leave me alone.”
This made me chuckle 🙂
Just now dealing with this situation with my sister-in-law. A misunderstanding between me and my brother… She decided to step in and write a nasty letter to me asking me if it made me feel better to hurt him. The entire letter was religious and ugly, full of statements that were basically history she had made up in her head over the years. The whole thing to me? I think it was to make her feel better about what she had done to me and my sons, the relationship she ruined between us and my brother. Now my brother and I can’t even talk to each other. She has complete control over their mail, his e-mail, their house phone… They don’t believe in social media either. I have no way of contacting him unless he decides on his own to contact me by picking up their house phone personally or calling from his work.
What can you do?
When my past relationships have begun falling apart (before I realize it consciously), I tend to take issue with a relationship in my life. When I’m single, I could care less if people are dysfunctional, as long as it’s not hurting a close friend.
I realized that pattern last time and it’s a useful indicator that I’m unhappy in my relationship and I’m projecting. It’s a very convenient distraction and something to chew on instead of getting real with your own life.
I validated myself yesterday during a conversation with narc. It was interesting. When I reflect on it, I savor that feeling of separation.
Amen! I’m an empowerment author and coach who knows this well and I STILL needed to hear this from someone else. The ultimate betrayal/projection befell my life recently and all I keep saying is: It’s not mine. Thank you for validating and affirming what I know. This girl has disengaged! 🙂
My last relationship was nothing but trying to defend myself from false accusations. Some were coming from the AC, and some were coming from his step-daughter that he parroted like a mimic. It was maddening, frustrating and deflating. Why I kept trying to say things like, “well, in court, determining a persons ‘motives’ is the most difficult thing, I don’t know why you would assume you know my motives for anything unless you ask me”, or arguing over again my experience which was never validated. I will never again stoop so low again. If you have to deal with false accusations, and they cause arguments, just get out now- do not wait. This is a sure sign that it is not a good relationship in any possible way. If you stay only expect more of the same. It is crazy making stuff that no one should have to deal with in a ‘committed’ relationship. They are telling you they do not trust you, they do not respect you or your judgement, and if this is the case- RUN. This is so damaging in all ways and the longer you stay with someone who does this, and has his harem do this as well, it is not worth staying one more minute. Leave this person and find people who include you and respect you and appreciate all the goodness in you.
Hi, Shano. That “judge and jury” thing is something my NPD coworker does regularly, to ANYBODY she talks to. It’s her way of making herself out to be the smartest person in the room. She feels she is super-analytical, gifted with numbers and smarter than everyone, and she isn’t. I cannot believe she says “you stupid” to coworkers.
I also know the statement “that’s just common sense” is always a put down to whomever is on the receiving end. It means “I know something that YOU don’t so I am going to make you feel stupid for not knowing something I already know.” or “I think THIS way and that is the only way to think.” People who say things like that usually have problems accepting that they can be wrong about something.
oh yes, I went through that with my ex AC as well. He was the grammar police and the semantics police. If you said while happy, “this is the best ice cream ever”, he would call you on it. It is all such bullshit. He could kill any tiny bit of fun by having to show everyone his superiority. An English major who did not understand metaphor or any other mode of communication. Always looking for that spot to bring your spirits down to focus on him. It is exhausting to deal with people like this. He would ask trivia questions out of the blue like he was my teacher. No, I am never going to play that game again with anyone. If they can only feel good about themselves by degrading others, walk away as soon as you can. Or ignore them if you can’t.
I should also clarify that my AC was never ever physically unfaithful. His harem consisted of step children and a group in his region that all took preference over me. Even if I was a licensed professional on the topic. He never gave me credit for any of the good things I did, even if my efforts made his company a lot of money. It was a constant emotional betrayal, and refusal to treat me with respect while placing everyone else in his life above me. It was humiliating no matter what the setting, I could never be agreed with before he heard from his harem. His step daughters would never agree with me, so even if it was the only solution- if I suggested it, the thing could not be done…….or could only be done with much strife that was so exhausting. These people will burn you out so you end up absolutely having to take care of yourself. No other choice.
Elgie. THAT’S the kind of behavior I was referring to. Obnoxious! And what can you do with people like that? Telling them off doesn’t work. You’re just providing them with ammunition to put you down and elevate themselves even more. I used to become really riled over this, but I’ve concluded the best thing to do is get away. In your case you have to deal closely with her every day. Don’t know how you do it.
Shano I am exhausted reading your post. Congratulations on being free from that.
The Narc-ex was a liar, gaslighter, passive aggressive etc etc. We got in a fight over something he said he’d do weeks ago, and hadn’t done, we were about to go on a trip. So he stormed off to do this thing and I told him we’re going to get late, its too far to do it now. He goes anyway, has to meet me on the way to the train station because we are now racing against the clock; stands in the street and screams in my face that i am a f-ing liar. For him even the fact that I thought we might be late but instead had a few minutes to spare = LYING. Even miscalculations were lies, forget the fact that I fully believed we would miss our train and wasnt saying that to annoy him. This from a person that regularly lied but said ‘I dont lie, I just say things that aren’t the truth’.
These stories just make me sad. Like I would never put up with anyone treating me like this now – I dont know why I had to learn that lesson the hard way by actually meeting someone like him when I was at one my lowest points already and then it was just downhill because he contributed to my problems.
I didn’t think it was about me – I didn’t think I was a liar. But I totally dealt with it as if it was a real thing to be dealt with whereas really I should have laughed in his face and walked off. I think boundaries is one way to look at it – and standards is the other. Do we have well-defined standards? I clearly didn’t have enough standards for how I wanted to be treated.
Hi Suki,
Yes the ex always said that “I don’t lie.”
Yet he was always lying mostly by omission.
The story that stands out is the one where we went out to celebrate his birthday not on the exact day though was afterwards.
I asked him straight to his face what he had done on the day of his birthday. He told me the things he had done but left out one major fact. The fact he had gone out with another woman and had sex with her. SO all the other stuff was true but I figure it is lying by omission leaving out a major fact like that.
He was always commenting on my honesty and comparing his own to mine yet I caught him lying so many times.
Thank goodness you are rid of that guy he sounds nutty.
There is no rhyme nor reason to these types of guys.
“Yes the ex always said that ‘I don’t lie.’ ”
That’s funny because people who just tell the truth don’t make a habit of saying “I don’t lie” – I mean, unless they find themselves with an accuser – but even so, if someone said “I don’t lie / I’m not a liar” to me more than once, my first thought is that they simply omit or get creative with the truth. It’s just a bizarre thing for a blameless person to say more than say, twice. Am I wrong?
And when I hear such statements I think, who are you trying to persuade that you don’t lie, me or yourself? Usually both. I’ve also realised that it’s obligatory to run away as far as possible, without giving anybody a benefit of a doubt, after a statement (or paraphrases)I’m honest … trustworthy …
I feel the same way when someone says “trust me”.
Oh, I so relate to that Suki, and you too, Shano.
Being with people who jump all over any small mistake you may have made…like when I used the term “fuse box” for the circuit breaker box and was pointedly corrected and lectured by my NarMom. WTF? You know what I meant. I know it’s a circuit breaker box but that term escaped me for a moment. Jeez. People who love you are supposed to be your “soft place to fall”, as Dr. Phil says. When you can’t make a mistake around people for fear of being ridiculed or cursed at, the harsh reality is those accusers are NOT on our side.
I hate that ‘superior’ behavior. You know, makes me remember the good boyfriend I had. He had a good job and was very intelligent. He told me that when women asked him what he did for a living, he would say he was a “Shepherd”. It was his way of throwing people off. He couldn’t be judged on anything based on that information. Other than being a little crazy. I met him in a bar, asked him to dance and he said “I don’t dance with women.” I said “Me neither, so what are we gonna do?” It was the start of a beautiful friendship. So for me, the interesting ones are the ones who activate my brain, not test my brain or judge my brain.
Elgie, this is perfect! people that activate your brain and not judge or try to judge or catch you out or even try a bit too hard to figure you out. I think people that activate your brain are basically people that want to enjoy other people’s company and are open to seeing what might happen (not just romantically, but generally they want to see what two people can get up to). So they aren’t focused on their own issues, they’re able to be present and see people for what they are, and where things might go.
Elgie, its interesting to hear how you characterize the “shepherd” boyfriend. I’m in my early 30s and going out to meet guys at different places. I am usually uncomfortable with men who withhold information about what they do. So to me, if I asked a guy about himself and he told me he was a shepherd and kept it up, I would roll my eyes and move on. If someone asks me what I do, I tell them simply, and let them make up their mind however they want. For some people, what you do is basic introductory information (like the question where are you from?). The times I have seen a guy refuse to answer, it made me wonder if he was projecting some kind of insecurity about what he does or proactively expecting that I would judge him. Reading your comment, I wonder if this is a particular form of flirting that works well with some people and throws off others who are also quality people.
Or I’ve found that many men who do the “Shepherd” move want to hear all about your info, withhold theirs so they can play you, or have a superior attitude toward you as if you aren’t worthy of their sacred truths. I would have breezed past him as well.
It is sad Suki.
Your comment, “This from a person that regularly lied but said ‘I dont lie, I just say things that aren’t the truth’.” Pathetic.
We can’t deal with these people, best just to walk away and forget them.
This article is perfect timing. I recently found out ny ex of two years admitted to cheating on me to a new girl he’s dating, and mind you he still denies to this day to me. I am the most loyal trustworthy person and was never accused of cheating or intent to cheat in other relationships until my ex. He would get mad at male friends saying hi to me when I was with him and he also would get mad if his friends were hanging out with mine and me when he would stay home and would accuse me of being a “whore” for giving them a hug hello. I mean rediculous accusations. I began to believe some of what he would accuse me of and second guess myself although I knew I would never betray somebody that I love. This caused me to walk on eggshells and stay home instead of going out with my friends that hung out with him in order to avoid a fight. Looking back I can’t believe I allowed him to brainwash me when all along it was his guilty conscience projecting his cheating shady behavior on me and my actions. His mindset was either “if I get away with these things, she may also” or “my friends may let out my dirty secrets if I’m not around”. I always felt that in my gut anyways so I can’t say I’m shocked. I always “know” these things and would call him out on it when he would act defensive and rediculous about my whereabouts. This was the first time I have real confirmation that what I felt was true. And these characters never and I repeat NEVER change. He saw me out recently and you guessed it tried to cheat on his new gf with me while he was out with these same friends who know all his dirt on his supposed “guys nights”. As far as compassion I guess I feel more pitty for him. He admits he’s a disaster in relationships and has serious issues he will always live with. He grew up with a lot of cheating from his real dad on his mom followed by his step dad of 20 years on his mom. Part of me thinks it’s sick he does this because his own mother became suicidal after her second husband cheated on her and from what I understand from even his mom, my ex took it very traumatically. I guess I don’t understand the logic on how you would want to cause that horrible pain on other people that your loved ones experienced. It’s a little sick to me. Anyways, I never take it personally and I am well aware that no matter who he dates he will do these things and he’s just a lost soul that is no longer my worry or problem. That will be the last time I will let someone accuse me of anything because I now know what is possibly behind it.
Guys who use the word “whore” as a pathetic tool to shame you or any woman are to be DUMPED immediately. Glad you got away.
In my experience, men who are hyperconcerned with any woman’s sexual status are, themselves, “whoring” around!
I’m going to write some letters to myself, and I’m going to explore the things I don’t like about other people; maybe I can tap into suppressed/ repressed feelings.
I can feel another ME that exists somewhere deep inside myself. I want her to come out.
Dealing with precisely this at workright now.
It’s easy to see others’ hypocricy in work situations. I feel for you!
I know this is long, but some insight would be GREATLY appreciated. I feel like I am losing my mind.
The “relationship” only lasted for about 7 months with 2 break-ups during that time that I initiated. We met during the summer after my sophmore year in college and he was a waiter at a restaurant. He was very charismatic and confident, which was what drew me to him. We were both 20 at the time (both 21 now). He still lived at home with his family, and he has a pre-school aged daughter who his mother has temporary custody of for whatever reason. I had never been in a relationship before. I was a late bloomer and didn’t start dating until after highschool, and even though I wasn’t a virgin when I met him, I was still pretty naive when it came to sex, relationships, and communication. I was emotionally immature. I did not tell him this though, because I wanted him to be into me. I feel as though I went through the idealization, devalue, and discard phases with him (he ultimately dumped me), but I am still having trouble determining if he really is a psychopath/sociopath/narcissist or just a jerk that I was too naive to realize and leave him alone sooner. PLEASE HELP ME WITH YOUR OPINIONS.
The first red flag I noticed was on the first date. He was very aggressive and pushed for sex. I didn’t do it. I should have run then, but I wasn’t used to such extreme attention and flattery. I gave him what he wanted soon after.
We had sex a few times, but then a few weeks went by and I didn’t hear from him. I was wondering what happened and I reached out to him. We met up and that’s when everything REALLY went downhill. His attitude changed completely towards me even though he assured me he was still into me.
Once we were meeting up with a friend and I was driving my car. He specifically TOLD me to pull into a space on one side of the parking lot, but when his friend came to the car, he asked why we didn’t pull to the other side. My ex then said that he tried to tell me to park there, and that I didn’t listen. I didn’t call him out on it.
When we met, I had a waitressing job at a struggling restaurant and didn’t see very much money. When I met his friends, one girl asked about me being a waitress too, and my ex quickly made sure to tell everyone that “I didn’t make no money.” I felt embarrassed and when I confronted him later, he said I was being too sensitive.
He was always gaslighting me and making me doubt my own perceptions. He CONSTANTLY criticized me. I can be socially awkward, and shy and quiet around people I dont know (i.e. His friends. I only have one friend myself.) His favorite name to call me was retarded and he always asked me “Why can’t you just be normal?” when I struggled to tell him how he was making me feel or if I was too quiet or him. I often felt drained, not loved after our encounters. I constantly asked him to leave me alone if he was gonna treat me that way, but my self-esteem and self-respect were virtually gone, and he always found a way to reel me back in.
It got physical once. We both love marijuana (a habit I now realize made me susceptible to his manipulation). He passed out high off of a pill one night, and I smoked his whole blunt by myself. He woke up looking for it and head butted me and grabbed me by my face, pushing my head against the car window. I left him for 2 weeks, but he hoovered me back.
About a month later, his horrendous behavior made me go no contact on him and I thought I was done for good. He never reached out to see if I was ok, just sent me the occasional “wyd” or “wanna smoke” texts. I foolishly replied after a month of no contact because I felt stronger and missed the emotional and literal highs I felt with him. At this point, I was so emotionally drained, that I wasnt even trying to be his girlfriend anymore. I’m in school full-time and work as well. I told him to save all the sweet talk, I just wanted somebody to smoke and relax with. BUT I told him that if he had a girlfriend I would not continue to have sex with him because I am not a side chick. He told me he had no girlfriend and that his feelings were real and things were going to be better and respectful from now on.
Everything was good for about 3 weeks until he broke a promise. I got suspicious and went through his phone the next time I saw him. I found out he had a girlfriend, a girlfriend that I could tell had been around for a long time. I was devestated. When I asked him what the FUCK?!?!? He lied, lied, lied, saying she wasnt anything to him even though it was so OBVIOUS he was caught. I dropped him off at his destination and he didn’t even apologize. BUT as soon as he left my car, he called me saying “I’m sorry” over and over. I didn’t believe him. He couldnt even say it to my face!! He told me to talk to him, and let it out. I asked him after everything we went through, why would he deceive me like that. He said he thought we were friends. I told him how he makes me feel and that it was unfair for him to fake a future with me and make me his girlfriend when it was convenient for him. He said “Thats just how it be.” I started going off and he told me he would call me back. Later he texted me asking if I was ok, and I said yeah. That was the last time I talked to him.
So what do you think? Is he a jerk or is he actually disordered? In my opinion, he fits all of the pshycopath/narcissitic criteria, but would a psychopath/narcisssist even bother calling to aplogize. It seems as if that last phone call was the break-up call. Would a psycho/narc even bother to do that and as if I was ok later that day? I am struggling because he obviously treats that other girl better than he treated me. I cant bring myself to believe that he is incapable of love and I don’t want to put psychosis on him. I truly believe he loves his mother, daughter, and sister. I feel as though it was something I did or didn’t do that made him treat me that way. I feel that he never took me seriously because I gave it up so fast. I feel that maybe if I stood up for myself and was able to communicate better, he would have respected me. When I think of the girlfriend he has, I picture a strong woman with an outgoing personality like his that doesnt put up with shit…everything I wish I could have been and be now. I thought he called me retarded because I do ditzy things sometimes, but I truly now believe that I am stupid. Even he couldnt believe all of the lying, manipulation, humiliation, and degradation my low-self-esteem having ass let him get away with. I didn’t believe I could do better and he knew this. He really does believe I am stupid, and I feel so embarrassed and ashamed to think he ever took me seriously. I feel too old to be going through this. Most girls learn through experience in highschool about how to avoid users like this. I can’t believe I let this happen for so long.
srtaylor,
You are not stupid or retarded. That guy is a manipulative p.o.s. He is bad for you. Run away from him.
It doesn’t matter whether he has a disorder or not. The only thing that matters is how he treats you, which is very badly. You deserve better than that.
The only way to start to recover your self-esteem is commit to going no contact with him, right now, forever. He is bad for you. The only way he will change is to get worse. And as badly as he treats you now, his behaviour can and will get worse.
There is no way he is treating any of the other women in his life better than you. I very much doubt you have any evidence at all that he loves his daughter. He doesn’t have custody of her for a reason. And she’s the product of a teenage idiot who was too dumb to take 5 seconds to roll on a condom. An accident who isn’t in his life in any significant way (if at all), not a planned, wanted, loved child.
He might be okay to his Mommy, who’s paying for his rent and who knows what else, but who cares? There’s no reason for you to attach yourself to such a loser. Run, far and fast. No contact is all you can do to help yourself. There are far, far better men out there and you do deserve a good one.
Thank you, Crystal. You made valid points. I never thought about his family dynamic in that way before. I am trying to accept the fact that it really is over, and that I was completely conned. I am done with him for good.
srtaylor, there are all of us on here that are way older than 21 and are dealing with many similar things, so you are not immature or anything. No one has this stuff figured out.
Your question really isn’t about this guy. its about something deeper. You’re asking us – how can I trust myself. He’s telling you; do you trust me or the evidence of your own eyes. You’re saying; I trust you over myself. When you realize through taking small steps in your life to take responsibility for your actions, to treat yourself better, then you will realize that there are a lot of other areas where people will jerk you around. You need to learn to identify those people, those moments, and how to behave. That is a life long process. This guy is doing you a favor – starting big, with a big jerk. Once you deal with him, you can do anything. I think I only really started in my 30s, though I was lucky to make some great friends before then but also a lot of toxic people.
What I realized was; people that make you feel like crap are no good. You dont ever need to feel like crap. EVEN IF that person is wonderful – maybe you feel like crap cuz they’re so much richer than you are. Ok fine. First try to get yourself to understand that money is not worth. But hey, maybe you still feel just awful, and bad about yourself. THEN STOP hanging out with that person. Stop. Its not a crime. After a little while, whatever insecurity was making you avoid that person, will resolve itself. You might not get rich, but maybe you get that job that you really enjoy and now money doesnt make you feel anything anymore. You see what I’m saying? You dont have to test yourself and prove you’re a ‘good’ or ‘mature’ person by putting up with crap. Good and mature people are good and mature TO THEMSELVES. So they would walk away from this situation.
No one blames you for staying all this time. We are just telling you that he is totally no good, no matter whether its a disorder or what his mum did etc. We all have bad childhoods. Its no excuse. Leave him. You’ll be happier. AND you will mature immensely by going through this experience of handling relationships. Break ups are a major part of relationships, doing it in a classy way to yourself and the other person is what really makes us grow – losing your virginity is not the key to growing up. Knowing how to do the right thing for yourself and others, that is the key. You’ve already figured him out. Much good vibes to you; take some time to be nice to yourself.
Excellent advice, Suki!!
Thank You Suki,
You are so right. I always tell myself that God allowed me to go through such an EXTREMELY horrible situation so that I will NEVER allow it or anything like it to happen again. And I won’t.
You are right about learning to trust myself and take responsibility for my actions. I am already starting to see changes in myself. My ears perk up and I am triggered when people speak to me a certain way. I am learning to speak up for myself because I have every right to be treated how I WANT TO BE TREATED. Your words are so comforting. I feel better knowing that noone ever really “figures it out” and we all have to take life and experiences one day at a time. 🙂
“The only way he will change is to get worse.”
Yep. Srtaylor, Crystal’s advice is sound. Everything she said.
SrTaylor. Please don’t waste your time trying to put a label him You can’t when you’re not an expert in the field. And those who want to give him a label don’t really know either because they don’t know him. It’s not important. What IS important is that you fully realize this person means you no good and can do a lot of damage to your delicate state of mind. PLEASE stay away from him and don’t worry about what he thinks of you. Even if you don’t have it all together, at least you’re not a severely damaged a–hole who is beyond repair. Stay NC for your own good.
Whether he’s narc/psych/soc/EUM/jerk or loser, who cares? He’s no good for you, and that’s all you need to know.
I think this is such a crucial topic to bring to the light. I left a nice long post about this issue in the last article. I also know the fastest way to get some of these types to stop projecting or to get rid of them all together and that is to ‘remind them of who they are’. For example, a few weeks ago my mother started with some projection crap. She has this thing where she says it in a joking manner but I know she trying to send a message and get some shit started with me. Well, she made this ‘joke’ a third time and I ‘joked’ about something she did that she could have and should have been arrested for a few years back. She hasn’t teased or ‘joked’ with me since lol. The married bar owner tried to project onto me. He literally tried to shift the burden of guilt and being ‘caught out there’ from him onto me. I called him on the foolery. He left that alone, but mentioned something else on my way walking out the door that was too stupid to dignify with a response. Its like these people are cult leaders and they are literally trying to brainwash with the projection. For me it isn’t so much about ‘I gotta say something back’ as it is about them knowing that I am not buying it. Even when I confronted people about the BS and they just responded to my claims of BS with more BS, I put it out there that I knew what they were up to. And one thing cons, manipulators, and tricksters don’t like is exposure! It has pretty much always been enough to get them to cut it out, leave, or try to get me to leave lol!
Which is WONDERFUL for me because I want nothing to do with these types.
Srtaylor- The guy may or may not be disordered and none of us here can diagnose someone we haven’t met. YOU can’t diagnose him, either. Leave the diagnosing to the professionals. 😉 What matters here is that he is clearly abusive and you need to run far, far away!
You said that your self-esteem is now low. I suspect it was already low when you got involved with him as you didn’t walk away at the first sign of trouble. While you’re busy trying to figure him out, where are you in all this? What are you feeling? Why is it ok with you to willingly spend time with someone who verbally, emotionally, & physically hurts you? This is who you need to figure out–you. Are there counseling services at your college?
“Have you ever had that disconcerting experience of being accused of something you haven’t done and it turns out that the person is in essence, working up a case against you because they have done something to you (that you don’t know about yet) or they feel guilty about something that they’ve kept hidden (possibly including from themselves)? It’s as if they need to create a situation so that they can feel justified in having done what they’ve done.”
Three examples come to mind. I mentioned this before on other posts: Once, a young man who I’d gone to school with told me he was single (he wasn’t. He was engaged). He insisted that we “hang out”. I trusted him because he was familiar. He wouldn’t lie to me, that would be dumb! We’re old pals. Ugh. Well his girlfriend apparently found his phone records showing that he’d called me a bunch (I called him once). He got in trouble, and to get out of trouble, he claimed that I was stalking him! I totally wasn’t, you guys. I only found out about this through the grapevine and very much wasn’t prying for inside info. I guess it worked because last I heard, the couple were marrying. The twist? After he was married, I caught him looking in my windows. With binoculars. I happened to be watching birds from my house with binoculars. He was with his clueless wife nearby. I suppose she thought he was answering nature’s call in the woods. Moral: people can and will unironically falsely accuse you.
Another scenario: my mom’s bizarre and abusive ex-boyfriend accused any and everyone (including me) of being drug users and spread false rumors about it. There was no basis for this. He, however, had been addicted to oxycontin for years after a surgery and pretty much dropped out of life and cultivated his massive addiction, possibly through illegal means. He projected or transferred his addiction onto others. If HE could not resist prescription pills, then everyone else was as addicted and obsessed as he, right? I don’t so much as take an over the counter pain pill, and I still have my rx painkillers from when my widom teeth were removed, for an emergency.
This is why it’s useful to doubt rumors. Often the people who crow the most about a thing are using misdirection even if they aren’t conscious of it. They assign bizarre, unfounded motives to someone and bystanders figure “Well, why would s/he lie about something like that? It’s proabaly true!” And a lie is born. To the contrary, I do not even bother to try to get my side of the story out in my little town. Instead I vent anonymously online. There is a German proverb “When the fox preaches, look to the geese.”
A lie travels halfway around the world while the truth is getting on her boots.
Dumpcakes, oh, the “she’s stalking me” thing is standard m.o. for the cheater. My ex-EUM had told some girl he was seeing on the sly who found out about me that he “hardly knew” me. Meanwhile, we’d been dating for years and spent 5 days out of the week together and spent every holiday together, etc.
“Have you ever had that disconcerting experience of being accused of something you haven’t done and it turns out that the person is in essence, working up a case against you because they have done something to you (that you don’t know about yet) or they feel guilty about something that they’ve kept hidden (possibly including from themselves)? It’s as if they need to create a situation so that they can feel justified in having done what they’ve done.”
Totally. Just happened to me recently. Ex accused me of becoming more friendly with a woman we knew after he left me to try and gain her ‘loyalty’ in case she liked him and then would feel too guilty to date him. I became closer to her after we split because she was great to talk to and I don’t have that many female friends. Total bull and was really insulted. It was totally innocent, and she was dating someone and having issues and I used to try and help her with too. Why did accuse me of this? Because, unbeknownst to me, they had begun seeing one another 2 months after he left me.
One thing I’ve learned: if someone falsely accuses you of lying about ANYTHING, even something insignificant, arrange so that you have no further contact with them. If it’s a boss that falsely hints that they think you’re a thief, or a boyfriend or friend that dismisses a true statement as false – I am warning you that these are warnings of misery ahead. You don’t have to explain yourself, just extract yourself from the situation! Trust me: worthwhile people do NOT accuse you of lying when you have told the truth. Also, these people are liars, usually. Don’t stick around to find out that I’m right – just get away and take your happiness and sanity with you at the first little warnings!
HAve to add: a “worthwhile” person won’t automatically agree with your beliefs or statements, but they won’t go from zero to “you’re lying” either.
For example, if you state a spiritual / moral / ethical belief of yours, a true friend might not agree but say “I’m not sure I agree. Here is why…” or maybe not want to discuss the topic in depth altogether.
Simply put – being called a liar because of a subjective or objective statement is a warning bell. Now, if you are a liar, you’re on your own.
Once, a guy accused me of something so trivial as faking an old family photograph. I didn’t fake it, it was authentic and anyway he hadn’t examined it. He just knew from glancing at it for half a second that it was fkae (and therefore I am a liar about trivial things, presumably using lies to jump through hoops to get his approval, ugh). Not suprisingly, this guy was later discovered to be a big fat liar about major areas of his life. Food for thought.
Someone – anyone – falsely accusing you of lies about little things is a BIG deal. Believe it. Politely get away before the person ruins any area of your life!
I don’t believe I’m a liar but your posts make me feel very uncomfortable in a ‘truth hurts’ kind of way. Maybe because I doubted something a previous bf told me and he ended the relationship in a very abrupt way because he “wasn’t going to be accused of lying!” I still think he was lying lol
The Sun Is Shining Down
JJ Grey & Mofro
“How many more days can you hold out,
How much longer can you wait?” she asked.
There was a time I thought I, I could answer
But my tongue gets tied as my thoughts drift away.
Glory, Glory – Hallelujah
The sun is shining, shining down
Glory, Glory – Hallelujah
I’m alive and I’m feeling, feeling fine
All those simple thoughts, all those peaceful dreams,
Share the space with a hard worked, hard worked day
But it’s the little things, the little things, not expectation
That make life worth living, worth living.
Glory, Glory – Hallelujah
The sun is shining, shining down
Glory, Glory – Hallelujah
I’m alive, and the world Lord, world is fine
Glory, Glory – Hallelujah
The sun is shining, shining down
Glory, Glory – Hallelujah
I’m alive, and I’m feeling Lord, feeling, feeling, feeling fine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUL_Nv8nbUI
ariel84- great story.
MM would ask me if I was sleeping with other colleagues. He left town but would frequently call or message to ask “have you been good?” “have you been ‘naughty’ with anyone else?”.
Once he called me after I had gone out with a group of his team the night before, to ask which of them I had slept with! He’d get jealous if I was chatting to them, saying, ” Id hope you would not see or sleep with someone else as long as I am around”.
Then he would caveat it saying “of course, you can, you know, you’re single. I can’t stop you”.
It was all about control. I (stupidly perhaps) would reply fervently telling the truth saying I would not, even saying I wasn’t that sort of person/wasn’t that successful with men/didn’t do one night stands.
The irony was, HE was the one who was having a long term affair with a colleague in another branch office!!!!
He never told me about her. But when he finally did (because she was coming to stay) he conveniently threw it back at me: “but we were always only meant to be casual and I owe it to her”. Yup, he was sleeping with his wife, this other woman AND me. And as far as I know I was the one who knew about all three.
Oh how I have learned from these pages and this post! This happens not just in relationships but also in the workplace. I was accused of things/ bullied at work a few years ago by my boss and would sit for hours wondering ” what on earth makes that person even THINK I would do that? I’d have never even THOUGHT of that”.
Then I realised it was because it was the sort of thing HE would do. Easily. Hence assuming or thinking others are doing the same!
Dealing with projections, both my own and other people’s has been something I’ve been working on in the last year.
The more I’m aware of the dynamic, the easier it is for me to spot it.
A co-worker had blown me off a couple of times for a standing lunch meeting (we bring our lunches and just meet to eat) whenever the other person we meet with wasn’t there. So I stopped meeting her and had my lunch in the cafeteria. Gradually, I just starting only eating in the cafeteria.
About six months later when the third person could not meet with her anymore because her lunch hour changed, she showed up in my room and said “where were you at lunch, you just didn’t show, I waited for you”? I was truly confused and I’m sure it showed on my face. I just looked at her and said I had no idea what she was talking about. She was accusing me of the very thing she had done to me. And it felt like she trying to make me feel guilty. I didn’t take it on or make excuses or apologies. It wasn’t mine.
The next day she admitted that she now had to eat alone and didn’t like it. I let her know I planned on eating in the cafeteria with the other staff and she was welcome to join me. She hasn’t and I’m not surprised, nor am I unhappy. She’s extremely negative and I don’t need it.
Now, on to mine! I used to assign the pressure I put on myself to do things quickly/respond quickly on other people. i.e. he expects me to jump when he calls; when the reality was that I expect me to jump when he calls!! That insight helped so much. It was/is my issue not theirs. That is not to say that when someone exploits this weakness or vulnerability in me that they are without culpability, but I am responsible for my part in it.
These days I get very interested if someone is trying to project their shit onto me when I KNOW I haven’t done or said whatever it is that I’ve been accused of.
I start asking questions like, You know that because … And when and where did this happen, who told you that or how could you possibly know that, are you following me or recording all my conversations?
When the bluster starts I know that is their issue not mine. The AC once accused me of having sex with someone else and I knew I hadn’t but it was fairly obvious to me that he was as he’d sent me a text that wasn’t meant for me but another woman. He managed to slither his way out of that one by saying the text was meant for his daughter (ha!) but the writing was on the wall. It wasn’t long after that incident that I had my epiphany and dumped him.
Seriously, when someone starts saying something to you that is way off and sounds weird, don’t get upset or angry, just ask questions and turn it back on them. It’s mind fuckery and they are trying to control you.
Pauline. That’s a very wise and mature tactic to use. Instantly, you have the upper hand and their intention to get you flustered and trying to explain yourself is bounced back to them. I love it.
Serene
Yep, you should see their face when you turn it back on them, jaws opening and closing and nothing coming out except a bit of a stutter – oh, um, er – it’s rather laughable and then the bluster starts while they are desperately trying to wriggle out of it.
I take it as a given that whatever they are accusing you or anyone else of (spreading nasty catty gossip), is a red herring to take the focus off whatever they are doing (or their own lousy relationship) that they don’t want you or anyone else to know.
Ariel84’s post right at the beginning is a classic example of her ex boyfriend’s nasty little scheme of putting the blame on her to take the focus of what he was doing.
Luckily I don’t have to put the questions very often but when I do it never happens again. They know you are onto them and -maybe- it has taught them a lesson.
Oh, I can imagine, Pauline. I’ll have to remember that should I never need it.
Hi everyone!
For the last few years this site has been a rock. Even though I don’t post often I visit at least weekly. It has helped me discover so much about myself and helped me navigate stormy situations.
I’m posting today as someone who was blind sided and devastated this weekend.
Last month I start seeing someone after years of dealing with assclowns and emotionally unavailable men. He seemed so different. Wanting to take it slow. Wanting to get to know me. As he put it it was all about falling in love. We saw each other several times a week. At first every defense was up as I worried he was just a better bs-er than the rest. But he wasn’t. He was willing to take time to get to know me. Didnt pressure me for sex.
Then this weekend it all blew up. Big time. I was so excited to see Him. He was going to cook dinner for me. The night was great then … Well let’s say it turned out to being all about him (should note no sex). He barely touched me. Made me feel ugly and undesirable. I was shocked as that’s not how it was in the past. I left and driving home cried my eyes out. Oh when I left he said he’d call this week to check my availability as if I were a hotel.
No, I never want to see or talk to him again.
I’m sitting here wondering if I can ever trust my judgement. If at my age (early 50s) it isn’t too late. I have a nice life. Great friends. But I won’t lie.. I would like to have someone special in it. Online dating was a disaster… I met this guy at a meet up and won’t go to any more as I felt very shy and awkward. What can I do? I’m lost and discouraged.
oh, your judgement was right on. If people make you feel bad about yourself when they barely know you ? FLUSH. & Next! The future awaits you, do not waste any more time on this person, he showed you very well who he is early on, so consider yourself lucky. He is not worth one more minute of your time. NC.
ChiTown. Did you tell us everything? Certainly. you left something out. So you’ve been seeing him fir a brie period, and you both agreed to take things slowly. So why would you get so upset that he didn’t approach you sexually? Is that what you wanted? Be honest with yourself. A healthy relationship for you starts with s strong, happy, self accepting woman whose self esteem is intact. She does not cry because the guy didn’t approach her for sex. So I ask again. What else is part of the story? I don’t see where he has behaved like the AC you seem to think he is.
Yes I did leave a lot out… A lot. Too be honest it was too embarrassing to write.. But trust me he was an AC. One thing the whole thing did was made me realize that sometimes it’s not my anxiety speaking but my gut…in this case the person has some serious issues that will not abate once he gets more comfortable with me. Actually I think they will get worse as he feels that he doesn’t have to put his best foot forward. So it’s time to say goodbye
Hi All,
Haven’t posted for a while, was feeling more positive, working on myself, planning my life…but wasn’t feeling wise enough to advise others on here.
I read this article and wanted to tell you all that I haven’t just been projected on, but outright gaslighted IMO.
So all going well, then phone call comes from exMOM who dumped ME six months ago. He starts telling me how he loves me, he made a terrible mistake, and he wants to get some therapy and build a life with me.
OK so I was suspicious and so thought I’d dig into this a bit more. We talked a few times and three days later he confessed that he’s been saying the same thing to his wife! He sent me an email saying “I love you, but I can’t be what you want me to be.” Uh hello? Wasn’t it him that approached me saying he wanted something?
So against my own and others advice I didn’t go NC right away, and ended up speaking to him this morning. He told me he had been feeling desperately miserable with his wife and reached out to someone that he knew cared for him. What a sucker I am for being this guys comfort blanket.
So he was late for a flight so cut off quickly and said he would call from the plane. To cut a long story short he got verbally abusive, like really nasty, with me because he was late and said he didn’t care how that made me feel.
Wow, this guy is some asshole and I hope so much I can find the strength to properly block this monster. I’m still going to have to keep working with him though.
I feel all over the place, don’t know whether to cry or punch something. I thought I was doing so well too.
I definitely need some BR tough love.
Colly, you know the answer. You’re still married, yes?
Ask yourself: what do you want from this guy? What are you hoping would happen? This is not about him. This is about you. That you listened to him, let him call you back, took his moaning and abuse. You have choices. And you have to ask what made you choose this. You’re choosing to be in pain. Perhaps that is your excuse for not investing in your marriage (look I’m in pain, i’m a sucker, he’s an asshole, so how can i be expected to make an effort; the drama is enabling you to escape your reality of responsibility). There IS a payoff for you. If you want to stop this, you have to be honest what that payoff is.
Heres the thing; you’re doing something wrong for you. PLUS you’re feeling guilty about it. Why? That means the guilt is part of this experience for you; you were feeling awful the first time he called back, so you knew what the next phone call would feel like. Yet you picked up the phone. You’re making choices. Perhaps continuing the guilt is your way to beat yourself up. Though it also allows you to have drama. I dont know why you’re doing this. I suggest stop doing it or stop feeling guilty about it.
You are being gaslighted though — by yourself. I dont think this is gas lighting by him to be honest; deceit is central to the relationship you have with this guy by definition since you both are married. So further gas lighting is not surprising plus you know his usual behavior.
Colly
I think Nat said in one of her posts,
‘NEVER go back to an old love, it’s like reading the same book over and over again when you already know how it ends.’
End of.
Don’t you have anything better going on in your life that you have to keep in contact with this dead beat? It’s the same old story over and over again. Nothing is going to change unless you do because as long as you are still hanging around he will still be the same.
Wake up my dear, kick him to the curb permanently.
Pauline,
I saw a funny on facebook not long ago you might enjoy.
Taking back your ex is liking trying to put a turd back in your asshole
Made me chuckle, have a good day xx
Kirsten
That’s so funny, I like it.
Every time I think of the ex AC I will have this mental picture … Eeeeew!
Colly. I was wondering how you are. I am not at all happy to learn that you are allowing any communication with him. I vividly remember saying to you that he knows you are weak for his charms (in his feet?) and that he will persist in any desperate attempt to get you back. You are doing exactly what he wants WHY???? If you would stay NC he would not have the opportunity to talk to you. The more you continue to interact with him, next thing you know you’ll be back in the quicksand again struggling to get free ALL OVER AGAIN. You know he is a liar, cheater and Lord only knows what else. This is very VERY serious now. You are in trouble. So many of us have told you this. Are you trying to prove EVERYONE WRONG? This is a HUGE mistake. You have told us that you only see him every few months. You are in need of serious professional therapy. I’m sorry but that’s a fact.
Colly. To be frank. I was so disappointed with the trend of your post I didn’t even finish reading it. So I went back and read the whole thing. Sweetheart, this is really tragic. I have to agree with Suki, that you are getting some kind of twisted gratification out of continuing to engage. You call him an “asshole” and a “monster” that you have to block. But you don’t. You’re don’t seem to be serious about this. And, the next thing you say is “I’m still going to have to keep working with him though.” It seems to me that you’re still looking forward to seeing him, however often it actually is. I thought initially that you seemed over-invested in someone you don’t see very often, not I’m convinced that you are. How is this happening? Why are you indulging in this farce? You said you came back for tough BR love. Well………Serene name changed (Tinkerbell).
Colly, I think you are addicted to the excitement(drama). It keeps you distracted from what you don’t want to look at in yourself.
I found also that apologies can be interesting. Someone apologized to me about something they said; I found it a bit silly what they said but wasn’t upset. They also mentioned having said something similar and upset someone else – and I know that person was quite upset, so I think this apology was really their attempt to feel better about that person.
The EU I fake-dated last year apologized to me about x, while really he had already done x and y. Y had happened a day before, x happened a week before; but he wanted to see if he could get through to me by apologizing for x so he wouldn’t have to apologize for y. He then went ahead and did the fairly silly z, which made y worse. I then had to call him out on y. Interesting isn’t it. He thought he had got away with y so decided he was free to do z (Which on the face of it was no big deal but together with y really got to me).
So there you go. People that are sort of narc-y apologize because there is probably something even worse they are doing or about to do to you or someone else at that very moment. The apology isn’t about the thing, its about them wanting to feel better. Ooffff!!
@colly, very sorry to hear about this interaction. Sounds very painful 🙁
I have also been taking some time away to work on myself and get happier. I went away on a vacation and just got back and it was very therapeutic. I cried about exMM, I felt rage, I felt nostalgia, but I did tons of journalling and cbt work and I think it has sped up the grief process a bit. And I was able to think about him less and actually enjoy myself! Still painful, but so happy to be coming our the other end of it.
I have been NC for 2 weeks and I was just back at work today and can see him sniffing around a bit on work email chains. Unlike before, I am not going to bite and your story is such a good reminder as to why. I am continuing my quest to get away from this guy and kill off these feelings. Despite some set backs, this is truly the only way. I need to be happy and to live again and so you do. This guy doesn’t seem to be able to give you the fantasy life that your want with him (and which he may want on some level but isn’t in a position to pursue). I think they are very attached to their wives and their lives and the longer you hang around on the sidelines waiting for something to happen, the more lost we get in our feelings and the more detached from our own lives and what’s healthy for us. You have had a set back, but you can get back on the healthy, happy path. You truly deserve it!!
Your story sounds so similar to mine. ExMM would also go a bit crazy when he saw I was fine and moving on without him. But then as soon as he would pursue and I would engage at all, he would retract and say he loves his wife, etc. I don’t think these idiots have any idea how painful this kind of waffling and back and forth is. And if they do, then they are serious assholes!
We both need to move on and heal and I hope you can get back on the NC wagon. It really is getting better, especially when I see him for the jackass he is. your exMM sounds selfish, rude, egotistical, confused, condescending and just plain mean. You do not need or want a relationship with this man. You are just lost in this situation. Pull out. Get well! It will get so much better!! Xo. Please post again so we can support you.
Thanks so much to all of you for responding to me. There is nobody more disappointed in my acceptance of his communication than me. I remember reading Natalie’s story about her epiphany relationship where she said to herself that she really must hate herself to put herself through this with this guy. I feel this now very strongly. For me this is not anger, I don’t feel charged with energy to go out and fix the world, just drained and depleated, and like I just can’t take anymore at all. Just terrible crushing sadness that I’ve done this to myself and my family.
I had actually been NC for about a month, and only dealing with work issues as I had to. I had even put people in place to deal with any day to day work with him now, so I only ever have to deal with the big stuff. I think where I got weakened was that my therapist was away for a month on vacation, so I wasn’t managing to get my feelings out to someone. I had been overconfident in my abilities, and really should have kept posting here to stay focused. I have been doing the Self Esteem course which is great, but really missed the human contact and feedback element.
I believe I had been very close to tapping into the deep deep shame and feelings of unworthiness that I have when my therapist went away, and I probably have gone and self sabotaged my efforts because I fear that this internal pain is worse or more frightening, or that I am going to have to really make a change – properly.
This guy really is the pits, and utterly remorseless, which I find the scariest thing. He actually sent me an email overnight telling me that he had to strike out on his own and it was best for us both, and even had the gall to sign off with “I love you”. Even with his grand plans he can’t stop himself for throwing out some kind of lingering hook.
I guess I’m looking for advice on where I go from here, because I feel like I maybe haven’t been doing enough? I know NC, and really I DO want this so much. I have a professional therapist, but maybe she’s not tough enough on me. I’m back to my feelings diary, writing some unsent letters…but maybe I’m too desperate and impatient with myself. I don’t know, I’ll keep posting though as this really is good for me.
Serene, I love the new name, its very inspiring. Like a positive affirmation.
Seriously @colly, what an asswipe. I hope that you are able to remind yourself of this over and over as you work on healing. It has been the biggest saving grace for me in my situation: To see what a jerk MM could be to me, and his wife. I know I had a role to play in bringing about our stupid affair, but at least I tried to be kind about it (as I could) and decent to others (to the extent that it is possible). These men are ridiculous, self-serving, big ego jerks who have no regard for other peoples’s feelings. Recognizing this (after a lot of pain and suffering) has been one of the main things that has helped me to heal. I kept ignoring what a jerk he was being to me and his wife (alternating between who got the love feelings and who got the rejection) as I didn’t want it to be true (that he was a jerk). But now I can see him for what he is: totally immature and truly a self-centered and ridiculous person.
By focusing on this over and over when I feel sad and and nostalgic towards him, I am really starting to kill this off. He is an idiot and so is yours. You are way better than this and you just need to start acting like it. Do some things that re-affirm your awesomeness. Reject him.. through no contact and work on things that make you feel happy and successful. He does not deserve your love or your attention. Move on and let him feel the loss. It is truly his loss. xo
Colly
I’m no therapist but I can only tell you that I had to learn to love, care and trust myself FIRST. I had to stop beating myself up over everything about the AC. He was a total piece of work.
I learned to forgive myself for being all to human and loving a cold nasty bastard who never had my best interests at heart.
It didn’t matter what anyone else thought, I had to learn to like me all over again, whatever my flaws are and we all have plenty.
You know intellectually that this guy is total poison, (your crack cocaine addiction) and your bad feelings and lack of self confidence in yourself are really wrong and you need to stop treating yourself this way.
As Nat always says, choose you FIRST. Be kind and caring to yourself FIRST. Believe it because it is true.
You like everyone else are a worthwhile human being. It’s important that you start thinking this way and writing positive affirmations about yourself in your journal.
Take care Colly xx
Colly,
I would be interested in you posting your thoughts in another direction than this “other man”, and that would be attention to your marriage. If your marriage has fizzled out, do tell us you have come clean with your husband and told him you want to move on, divorce, not for this work guy, but for your next step. Neither work guy, husband, therapist, or “Baggage Reclaim” are solving your problems or meeting your emotional needs. When you take a step away and face only yourself you will be confronted to what is most important to you, and which direction to go in your life. It may be limping along in self destruction, or a renewed awakening to a
fulfilling future.
Colly. Thank you. As much as I may ride you I believe in you, although it ain’t easy. I think it is imperative that you make a decision. Do you love your husband? Do you want to continue in your marriage? If you have doubts, that is certainly what you are demonstrating. This dalliance with this jerk is so WRONG on so many levels. There is nothing new any of us can tell you. You know what you must do. If you don’t care about yourself, think about your husband. Is he a liar and a cheater, also? If so or even if not you need to leave him. This double – life is extremely damaging. But doing that is not going to get “The Jerk”. He is staying with his wife. Perhaps, you should just be ALONE, DIVORCED and work on your issues. It’s not fair to wreck someone else’s life (your husband) because you are unable to kick the MM out of your life. Where are your morals, your standards, your boundaries, your principles? Where are YOU?
OK…so I’m going to have a quick rant here about the AC, and then I’ll try spill out whats inside me regarding me and where I am and how I feel about my marriage…
Arrggghhh!!! A**hole!!! I honestly just feel total contempt, and like sick in my stomach when I have any thoughts of him, or my interactions with him, or him still working on my projects. He is on a trip this week, working with one of my teams on a key project we have. Six months ago I would have been there, but at least I have the smallest bit of sense to stay away. After saying he wanted limited contact (no problem here I’d go NC if I could), yesterday he actually sent me a photograph of my team smiling with the Swiss chocolate he gave them! I felt enraged, like a cuckoo had turfed me out my nest and was gloating about it to me, like he was saying look how happy me and your team are together without you…and how is that limited contact? You know I actually feel jealous of the attention my team is getting from him too, how twisted is that?
He also sent me a message telling me how I’d made some good choices in some reorganisation I’d done in the team, with a load of advice about what I should do next with them. I am deleting these messages and not responding, though the temptation to write back and say “F off and mind your own business” is very strong. I won’t lower myself, but also if he gets awkward and starts working against me at work (something he likes to do to people that don’t fall in with his plans – nice hey)then it will jeopardise too much at work. Horrible situation, I feel like I’m held hostage in a way. I could probably spin something to get him fired because he has messed up quite a bit of my work recently, but I’d never do that, his poor wife and family have enough to deal with living with him without being financially ruined as well. He would also definitely seek revenge. What a nasty situation and a nasty person.
Oh and I feel so sorry for his wife and family, and mine, I feel remorse even if he doesn’t. You know he told me after we split up he started to challenge his (allegedly abusive controlling) wife by damning every opinion she expressed. He thought this was a good approach, invalidating someones thoughts and feelings in favour of his own. Why I am surprised by this I don’t know, this is what he’s always done to me?
Leanne mentioned not wanting to believe someone is this bad, and I strongly identify with this. Through the last week’s interaction all the time I had loops going in my head that I don’t want what he to offer, don’t trust him, yet I still somehow needed to prove it to myself. Its like I have to keeping proving how bad he really is for me.
Well I do know, and my senses and body told me very very quickly how toxic he is for me. I felt instantly dragged back to being the child wanting to be chosen over her “preferred” sibling (intellectually I can identify that neither me or my sibling were preferred as my parents were EU to us both, but it feels that way to me). I have also fallen physically ill and have been off work all week on antibiotics.
Yet, I still chose to drag myself through some torture rather than face myself – this is all what its about, not being able to face myself. If its not him its over-working, or in the past too much of many different things. I do anything to escape myself, and then go and do things against my values to disgust myself further and have more excuses not to look. I know what the problem is, I just feel so helpless and don’t know what to do anymore. I don’t know what is going to get me back into myself, I’ve been away so long.
I also recognise that some of the things I do are passive aggressive moves because I don’t know how to talk about or address what I am really upset about. Nobody talks about anything or expresses themselves, or affection, or anything constructive in my family. My sibling and I only over saw anger and criticism growing up, unless we’d manage to do something that was approved of and then we were paraded like show ponies. I’m a pro at people pleasing with passive aggression.
So, my marriage. You know I used to blame myself entirely for what’s going on there, but it can’t be all me really. Its like I’m invisible at home, but I’ve honestly made myself invisible too, by living in my obsessive head and over working. It hasn’t always been this way, it used to be nice and calm and happy. The first seven years were good (seven year itch).
My husband is not a cheat, but he is EU and obsessed with his own hobbies. We do have to plan our weekends around his hobbies. I guess its suited me for a while because I could be alone to live in my head. (Wow, I am so disgusted with myself, I really feel that and I can see its not helping me.)
He is good for me in a way though, calm, solid, reliable…totally opposite to the scumbag I’ve been engaging with.
I don’t feel like I should abandon my marriage and disrupt my daughters life, I haven’t done the work on myself or addressed my marriage issues just yet. If I took off now I think I would probably just launch back into my pattern again. I have to stay put and face it this time.
I recently read “Women Who Love Too Much” and this really resonated with me. I think I have numbed myself for so so long that I only feel extremes. So my husband, who doesn’t provide the highs and lows feels a bit boring to me. I think I really have to work hard on myself (feel sick with fear at the thought of it)and then see where I’m at.
The question I have for you all is do things really get better? Do you feel better or is life a constant battle fighting against your patterns? I really hope its not because I life in battle with my problems doesn’t feel like something I want either.
So…sorry this is so long…but this is where I am.
You know, reading this back to myself before posting, I realise that just by being here and writing all this and feeling it I am doing something to address my problems. I do just need to stop giving myself such a hard time.
Thanks to all for your responses again.
I’ve read this back again and can see very clearly how the AC comes back to me to recharge his ego batteries so he ha energy for the things he really wants to do (self adulation mainly I think).
I also feel so much better for writing all this down and reviewing. I think taking Leanne’s lead with some daily journaling would be a good thing.
I also realise that this is a set back, its a big one, and the negative consequences on me have been huge, but a set back it is. I was moving in the right direction before he rocked up again and I can get back to this place. I see its all about mental attitude towards yourself, if I tell myself I’m bad and hopeless I will be.
We have to learn to stop hurting ourselves first. If someone is hurting you, let go of them. Be grateful for everyday on this Earth. Gratitude that you are housed and clothed and have food and water- most of the people on this planet struggle with the bare substances of life. Gratitude that your daughter is healthy. If you have time on your hands, do not spend it on Drama. Find peace and be grateful for it. Look for the good all around you and shun the bad, turn your back and be happy. Happiness comes from within ourselves, not from some other person. Stop searching for happiness outside yourself. Random acts of kindness can take us out of ourselves and create joy instead of drama….
Colly. Everything you have said you should be opening up and revealing all of it to your therapist. Writing here and writing in your journal is fine but it is most important to discuss EVERYTHING with him/her. Do you have a male or female therapist. Personally, I think a woman understands and can relate better as long as the skills and interest in helping you is there. Please work harder there and hold nothing back. If there is anyone for you to really talk to openly band face your demons, it is that person. After all, you should be getting your money’s worth, don’t you think?
I see now that since your husband is EU and “boring” in your opinion, you are seeking excitement and drama in your life. Find healthier ways to feed this need other than having an affair with a half-man. You seem to be trying to convince yourself that you really feel the negativity you express about him. But, evidently you are not there yet. Look at your feelings and actions regarding him. Those speak louder than any names you may call him. DO THE WORK ON YOU!!!!!
Serene,
My therapist does get to hear all of this type of stuff all the time. I guess what she doesn’t do (woman – would feel funny having a male therapist) is direct me in what to do, she lets me figure it all out myself. I’m not sure if they all do that, I’ve only ever seen one? I’m also not sure whether once a week is enough, or maybe I’d benefit from some group work as well. I’m also thinking attending some mindfulness workshops as I think it might help me get more present.
I do FEEL very negative towards him now,and I can honestly say that the glimmer of hope has gone. Last week my actions did reflect where I was, which was not quite believing he could be that bad. I had a real straw that broke the camels back moment on Monday and now I can only feel contempt and disgust, and the horror about what a tragic waste of my life and that of my family it has been.
On the drama and excitement part – yes I enjoy that. I have done a few things in the last couple of months to get myself out and about a bit more so I’m not a total dead loss yet.
I will work on myself…and I actually feel like a bit of a weight has lifted from me because I’ve reached this point.
Colly. A therapist is not supposed to tell ytou what to do. She is supposed to ask you questions and get you thinking about WHY you do and thin the way you do. She should ask you how YOU THINK you could manage situations better so that you help, rather than hinder your goals. Lots of childhood issues come up and when you were a younger woman simply because you both need to get to root causes for your behavior which did not develop overnight. Like us, they re still people. I had a psychologist for two who recently retired but she referred me to a very skilled social worker. The social worker I have found to be much more personable and interactive which I prefer, whereas the psychologist would usually give less input. It’s crucial that you have one who meets your needs and whom you trust implicitly. But your own desire to “get well” is just as important. You must take the process very seriously. If you think you’d do better with someone else don’t be afraid to change after you’ve given it a fair chance. You MUST discuss ANY issues no holds barred. That’s why you’re there. See on the next post or later.
Also, you definitely should do stuff that make you feel good. Go to the spa. There are nice places you can go with a girlfriend for the weekend. Get out and get out of town. Change of environment is always helpful. Think about what you enjoy and DO THOSE THINGS. All the best, Serene.
This isn’t a projection example but I’m not sure what it is an example of. I think of it as a toxic dump.
My neighbor is a very angry, bitter, petty man. I avoid him because all he does is spew whatever is bothering him…what the city is doing, the president, the other neighbors, it’s always something. Often many things one right after the other…he just unloads it all, often with very foul language. I used to just stand there stunned and attempt to listen and find a way to calm him or change the subject. But I always walked away feeling like crap…I absorbed all his toxic stuff. He probably walked away feeling great.
Since I have learned and have been practicing setting boundaries, I decided I needed to come up with a boundary (besides avoiding him, which I do!). I decided to practice putting up a VERY firm internal boundary when I saw him (visualizing it).
He appeared out of nowhere recently while I was peacefully shoveling snow. He launched into this spewing attack on the other neighbor. It was like an assault, but with words. I was mentally scrambling to put up my boundary! I was having a hard time because I was so off balance because I hadn’t seen him coming. I just looked at the beautiful blue sky and focused on that and thought about how calm and peaceful I was prior to his appearance. After a few minutes of that I felt my boundary was in place. I looked at him and I heard the words he was spewing, but they didn’t penetrate me like they had before. The anger and bitterness didn’t wound me. All of the sudden he stopped. He looked at me kinda shocked and said “Oh, I just needed to get that off my chest.” I didn’t say anything and he walked away!
It was great! It only took me a minute to shake off the residual crud from his assault. He left with all his stuff still with him because this time I wasn’t carrying/processing his anger and bitterness for him.
I realize it wasn’t ideal, but it was huge progress. I’m so sick of taking on/absorbing other peoples’ stuff!
How I understand you Veracity. I would like to write more, except that remembering that period in my life when even random people from the street would feel entitled to offload shit on me is still too painful to remember. Best, V.
Thanks, V. Sounds like you’ve gotten way past that time, so that’s encouraging!! I have noticed a huge difference in the way people treat me now that I have been practicing boundaries. I suspect that as I get better with healthy boundaries I will have less of a sign on my forehead saying “dump your shit here”. 🙂 Have a great evening! Veracity
@colly, that’s great you’re feeling anger.. You should! This guy has tested you badly repeatedly and I think there’s a tendency for women, eapecially women in these situations, to beat yourself up for your involvement and the things you did wrong. Yes, some self-reflection and work on yourself is important in the long run, but right now, be kind to yourself!! You are going through something extremely difficult. You need to take time to really put this to rest and grieve it and get well. Do that with kindness to yourself and then spend time on self-improvement. The last thing I think you need right now is self-flagellation and a big analysis of all your problems. You just need to get away from this man and this situation before he eats away at your self-esteem and sanity any further.
You asked whether it gets better and while I al not a pro in my distance from my situation, I can already feel that yes, it gets way better! It took me a long time to adjust my thinking about mm but now that I have I am feeling fine :). Yes, life is a bit more boring without him and the yes-no drama, but it is so much healthier and I feel way happier overall. There are lots of fun things to do that don’t involve him and I know in my heart there are lots of great guys out there to fall in love with if that’s my path who would treat me well and love me back. The same is true for you, whether it be your marriage or someone else eventually.
So like I said I am no pro, but in reading your story, I think you could really benefit from some time away from this jerk (permanent time I mean) and a focus on yourself And your family in a healing, positive way. Have you read “the power”? It’s the sequel to the secret and is so so good (my favorite book). I picked it up again and am reading it daily. It is so good and so helpful too. Highly recommend it! Xo
“The question I have for you all is do things really get better? Do you feel better or is life a constant battle fighting against your patterns? I really hope its not because I life in battle with my problems doesn’t feel like something I want either.”
Colly, you either take active steps into an uncomfortable zone to find this out or you don’t. Two things are for sure. (a) to change takes active work and active restraint against your self defeating and self destructive impulse and set responses. It is not enough to just think and say that you want to change. That isn’t an active response. (2) Your life is likely to remain the “constant battle” that you feel it currently is without active commitment to change.
There isn’t an ‘easy’ way.
Sorry, this is lizzp not lixxp
This post was a much needed inspiration. I work in the nursing field where one values The care that’s given to our patients. I have always had great pride in my work. I have a patient i’ve cared for for years! My patients daughter has always been aloof..with her mother being demented &combative,so caring for her is a balancing act of compassion,dignity &her& my safety! Well as of late different staff would tell me she had “issues” with my care for her mom(which she never told me for 4years). How i gave everyone else more attention than her mom(her projections she hardly spent alot of time when she visited) how i was neglecting her mom( she wouldn’t even wash her moms hands when she came) i have a stellar record at my company,which i’ve been with for ten years,family members typically write me letters of recommendation! Nothing she said about me,matched who i am! I read this post& i said ahaa!! Thanks natalie! Those are completely her “issues” not mine!
Thank you for this post. I have just gone through this type of ‘projection’ myself and it really did hurt and confuse me. To try cut a long story short, my boyfriend of nearly 3 years broke up with me in November – or should I say – blinded-sided me, as he never discussed feeling unhappy or that he was unsure about our relationship with me AT ALL prior to telling me. I was in shock to say the least and he could not give me a definite reason ‘why’ either which has also been difficult.
BUT – 2 months later asked to see me on the premise of returning some of my things and to ‘catch up’. As I had done NC with him from day dot I was slowly healing, so was feeling ok. After some pleasantries he became stern-faced and asked me ‘why I had become more friendly with a female friend of one his friends and shared our issues with her after we split’. I used to see this person on and off whenever we used to visit his friends, so I knew her a little bit but at this point his question made no sense. She was not his friend and was only barely associated to him through the others. She and I began messaging after he left me because I felt lost, and she was objective and ‘there’. She helped me, agreed that he had left me in a callous way etc etc. I thought I had made a new female friend, someone to talk to.
I couldn’t understand why it would be any of his business who I spoke to after he left me, especially not a woman he rarely had anything to do with. Then suddenly…my gut felt like it had been hit with hammer. I asked why he cared? He said, “because we hooked up at the end of January”. I just about vomited from the pain. Apart from the fact that it was so soon after me – I had been sharing all my woes and his issues with this person whom I thought he had nothing to do with. She had stopped talking to me very much after Xmas, but I assumed it was because of a guy I knew she was seeing from another state and her being busy. I had NO idea she had started seeing my ex 2 months after he left me.
But getting to the projection part – he had the gall to say to me that ‘people’ (what people, I don’t know) had thought I had ‘become more friendly with her after he left me because I thought that she might go for him in the future and so if I became friends with her, her loyalty would be to me and she wouldn’t date him’. WTF??? No, I just liked to talk to her and she helped me get through a hard time. I thought she was dating someone else!! I was so upset that he would think that I was capable of such childish, manipulative behaviour. I was really angry and said how DARE he accuse me of such awful things when he didn’t even have the decency to share his feeling of doubt about us until he had already decided to go. What I thought would be a simple catch up turned into a devastating afternoon.
He never said sorry (she did later) and projected this crap onto me to try make me feel bad because I had confided in this friend that I thought he was emotionally immature (long before them hooking up). I had affected his ‘new’ relationship without even knowing it. If he hadn’t started seeing her – he wouldn’t have cared that I told her. Made me feel thrown away like a piece of garbage 🙁
back to living and breathing this website. need to be a good example for my 2 younger sisters. don’t want them engaging in unhealthy relationships like I did :/
Ok ladies…you have a newbie on your hands. I am one confused lady at this time in my life. Just broke up from a toxic and mentally exhausting relationship. This is not my first break up with this guy, so somewhere deep down I knew he wasn’t for me. It was only a matter of time. Reading this blog today made me realize that it was all just an illusion!! WOW!! I thought he was what I wanted and I didn’t realize that I was stuck on the illusion of what I WANTED. I lived in misery feeling like it was all my fault with the help of him constantly blaming me. I have left the relationship feeling this time that I did my best and it’s making me feel stronger than before, enough to stay away! I have got a new place to live to get me away from here, I have made changes to my social media so he cannot contact me. I am following the rules of starting fresh. Only problem is I can’t stop thinking about him. Not in a wanting manner I guess more of a habitual manner. Even when he’s not here he mentally exhausts me. I know this will pass, but it’s so frustrating. Just need to vent, I think all my friends are sick of hearing about us. They all think he’s a control freak and he’s not good for me. Well they’re right, can someone explain that to my heart now!!!!