Just as our relationships provide a window into understanding what we need including where we need to step up for ourselves, our gripes, frustrations, and repeated complaints also provide a window into not only understanding what we need to be doing to live in line with our own values but also into where we may need to adapt our thinking and behaviour. Why? Because often the things that we dislike in others point to something that we can stop doing or do more of to limit the impact, or… we can even be guilty of doing the exact same thing.
Like recently when I listened to someone vent about their sibling being inconsiderate and controlling. After hearing the chain of events and basically being expected to agree, I gently pointed out that they both seemed to be mad at each other for the exact same thing. “You’re angry because you don’t like the comment he made and you feel like he’s trying to force you not to like this person, and he’s pissed off with you because he doesn’t appreciate the comment that you made and he feels like you keep trying to make him like this person.” Neither party was empathising with the other or respecting their own positions.
Your frustrations with others provide a window into understanding where you may need to adapt, not because what they’re doing is your ‘fault’, but because if there is something that you can address, you won’t continue letting their behaviour have a hold over your energy and happiness. It helps you know your own boundaries and values.
As humans, we do like to home in on what others are doing and to attempt to control the uncontrollable. It can seem like a far more attractive prospect to practically get a PhD in Everything They Ever Did To Piss Me Off & Why They Need To Change To Be a Better Person That I Would Feel More Comfortable Around, but it’s a distraction that really stops us from being truly honest with ourselves and living our own lives authentically.
These realisations don’t invalidate the fact that what the other person is doing is wrong / annoying / upsetting etc., but your happiness and progression doesn’t lie in focusing on him/her and trying to ‘make’ them change. You may even have got to the point where you’re resigned to complaining about the existence of the issue because you’ve determined that their change was and is the only solution.
The thing is, their actions and the fact that it’s pissing you off isn’t happening in isolation. Their actions are theirs to own and are a reflection of their habits and their typical response to certain situations, and are not influenced by your worth or ‘one false move’ on your part, otherwise if their response was an anomaly, they would have reverted to their typical behaviour, not continued – you’re just not that powerful. However, if you want how you feel in the situation to change and you want to gain some traction and move forward, you need to take the focus off him/her and bring it back to you.
Another person changing isn’t going to be the solution to your problems, especially if you are continuing with habits of thinking and behaviour that you responded with in the very situation that wound you up.
Remember that it’s not about making you at fault for other people’s behaviour because they’re rolling how they roll, but it is about asking you what if anything, you can be doing differently that would either make you less likely to be in this situation in the first place or will help you to neutralise the impact.
Your thoughts?
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quoted for truth. and amen.
i’m really realizing that my reactions to other people are just that: my reactions. and yes, they are who they are, and they are doing what they’re doing, but so am i and so do i. and i can grow me. and i have.
ooof. Those examples brought me up short. No way to escape those comparisons. I have a lot of thinking to do. Dammit. Thanks….
Hi, Natalie. Very well-said here, I think.
One of my great insights from my last relationship was how amazingly we mirrored each other’s attitudes and behaviors while believing throughout that the other person had this uniquely horrid laundry list of character failings that needed to be fixed.
Surprise, surprise when I finally emerged from my romantic fantasy fog: pretty much everything I’d accused her of – particularly ambivalence/lack of commitment – applied to me!
Which is one reason I always wonder when I hear people here lambasting/demonizing their former lovers: Have they truly looked hard in the mirror?
Dammit Natalie and Lawrence….why do you both have to be so smart??
Lawrence you are spot on! I never show any emotions to ex AC:(, I am EUW myself…How he could read my mind and knew how frustrated I was, if I never “opened up”…somehow I thought he should “get it” how I felt?! I responded to booty call arrangements and willingly participated! SO I “looked at the mirror” and it is my fault too.
Yep, guilty as charged. EU attracts EU which is why I am (over 6 years of post divorce relationship insanity) on an extended break from dating to work on my issues. I am tired of running. I just don’t have it in me anymore. I too am guilty of polluting the dating pool in the past as much as my former EUM’s have been. EU people (myself included) don’t fully consider how much they impact other people and if they do it becomes too hard and painful to face, it’s easier to move on to the next person until they want or need above what the EUM/W is prepared to give….
For the past 3 years I’d been living in a apt with a simply horrible upstairs neighbor. The building itself was shabbily constructed, so whenever my monster of a neighbor stomped around it was very unpleasant to say the lest. We had a very bad dynamic, and it lead to a extremely miserable home life for me.
Many times I tried to get him to change, be more quiet/considerate etc. You can guess where that lead.
This situation took over a large portion of my mental/emotional well being.
I was so sick of hearing myself complain.
Because of all the excellent posts you’ve written I finally understood that it was up to me to change and that I could not change the neighbor, the building etc. I live in a very expensive city with almost no vacancy rate, so moving was not an easy thing to do.
BUT I DID IT!!!! I moved 2 weeks ago. I go so sick of hearing myself bitch, and I knew from reading your posts that “not making a decision is a decision”. I finally understood and a huge portion of that is because of BR.
I changed my life, it’s only been two weeks and everyone I know tells me how much happier I seem. I did something really hard to do (find an apt in a very competative area). I moved out of the city limits 10 miles, and it’s a different me!
Now that upstairs neighbor who rattled my cage is no longer in my world, and things look really bright, lots of new possibilities, new friends, new clients, everything opened up like a flower.
Thank you Natalie for helping me grow some.
Aw that sounds ace – pink. Well done!
Pink panther bravo! I too have felt sick of hearing my whining to friends and family. I am going to remember you changed your situation for the better and figure out how I can do the same…
brava, pink. *applause*
Well done PinkPanter…I for example, hate my job, but yet again, I get on well with my Boss and colleagues,and it is very convenient to travel, flexible/can work hours I want, BUT I am not happy. Keep moaning and complaining and do not do anything to change my situation. Natalie’s article and your comment made me think, I have to do something:)
I am having a real problem with other people atm – I’ll see if I can make it fit into the post but it might be a prevarication, apologies if so.
Since I had a baby (over two years ago now, would you believe?) and moved out of town I’ve become increasingly isolated. While I was pregnant my closest friends moved away, others lives’ took various turns that led to us becoming distanced and some turned out to be NPD drama-addicted fantasists (although, taking what you’ve said on board, maybe I resented that because I wanted more airtime for MY drama-fuelled fantasy? Hmmm….). Also I’ve been busy and I’ve had to stay in a lot.
I now have a small group of nice newish friends that put a fair amount of effort into making sure that I see once or twice a month, because I like them. I’m also putting effort into organising Trips Out To Do Stuff with people at work. The thing is, I’m finding it INCREDIBLY difficult to interact with folk these days. I feel very clumsy and dull and as though I express myself really awkwardly. I ramble and can’t concentrate on anything that I say and any interjection that I make into a conversation seems to be the wrong one.
Part of this is practice (and I’m also aware that there IS a good sympathetic conversationalist in here somewhere, although I wish I had more control over when she pops out!) but I am getting very frustrated with myself – it’s like trying to do ballet with sandbags tied to my extremities. Or being back in Year 7.
Drawing parallels with the post, I can see that some of this is about me. I feel as though other people are stand-offish and disapproving, I’M probably the one who’s stand-offish and disapproving. I feel judged by my poor social skills but I’M probably the one who’s judging myself (although am aware that I’m a jolly nice person inside, even so 🙂 ).
Also I think I’m spiky – I didn’t realise this, but I inadvertantly upset a colleague yesterday by being overly-forceful at a bad time. I’ve apologised and it was fine, but I’m a bit horrified to think that I’ve become the clod-hopping clod-hopper that I used to dread in times of stress. Also I had a strong physical reaction when I found out – I went shaky and was sick – which even at the time I realised was a bit of an overreaction.
This is just with women – I am not even going to go into my general demeanour around men, except to say that the high point of my love-life was when a (nice, good-looking and very together) bloke said that he was interested in me a few months back, and I said “Nice try buster”. All the fur goes up on the back of my neck and I hiss.
Like I say, I’m not sure if this fits in with the topic (although I feel better for writing it down – thank you) but I’m lonely and wondered if anyone else had come out of the other side of a stressful situation with the same symptoms? Any tips?
I’ve realised that it’s a good deal easier to have healthy self-esteem when you’re sitting in by yourself!
my yoghurt,
ok, lemme give it a try.
i’ve never been through exactly what you’re going through, but i HAVE experienced seismic events in my life that i felt disconnected me from others (losing my sister, my divorce). and reconnecting was very painful and took a while. when i came back to what was passing for “life” i felt like quasimodo, hump and all. i was out of practice, out of touch, and yes, like a porcupine. nobody else around me had been what i had been through. and i felt like a pariah.
being out of practice and out of touch are technical issues – you can practice and get back into touch. but here’s the thing – the hump and the spikes are judgments that you are putting on yourself. the evidence of that is telling that guy to piss off when he approached you. and those judgments stand in the way of feeling like you can practice (practice means you don’t get it right for a while, and you have to allow for that) and get back in touch because you keep rejudging yourself as clumsy and unworthy, so it becomes a loop, and therefore you ARE spikier and humpier.
just…don’t. don’t judge. be patient with yourself. be accepting, non-judgmentally accepting of you – all you’ve been through, all the work you’ve done on yourself, raising your 2-year-old (!!!), changing your life, managing the exAC. be compassionate with the hump, smooth down your spikes. and then you’ll see there’s no hump and the spikes are teeny stickers that only come out sometimes and btw everybody has them.
you’re ok. all you have to do is be understanding that you’re getting yourself back out there, and how brave that is, and that you must be gentle with you to get back in practice. be a friend to make a friend, but be a wonderful, loving, sweet, forgiving, limitless friend to YOU first.
then, you’ll start to trust yourself, when you know that if you trip up, you won’t tear yourself to shreds. you don’t have to get shaky and sick (poor thing!!!) when you err. you’ll pick yourself up, shrug your shoulders, give yourself a squeeze and a kiss on the head, buy yourself a little piece of chocolate and tell yourself its ok.
because it is. and you are.
mwwwwwwAH!!
Aw, lovely cc – thank you.
This is such good advice – I can’t really add to its wiseness, but I wanted to say thank you (also am sorry you’ve had a hard time recently xx)
Incidentally, the shaky-and-sick incident? The lady in question (who I like a lot) emailed me today to apologise and explain that she’d had a horrible week full of dreadful events. I’m still sorry that I added to that, but it wasn’t ALL ABOUT ME… yet again.
Thanks again. Next time I’m winding myself up about it I’ll keep the picture of the hump and the spikes in my head.
Ah Yogurt, Happy Birthday to your son. Two is such a sweet phase. I feel as though I’ve watched him grow up! I’ll bet he is a doll.
With regards to what you are experiencing, I think I am in a similar situation. It’s like trying to get my sea legs. I’ve got this wonderful list of boundaries but I’m not quite sure if I’m enforcing them appropriately. Is it really them? Or is it me? ATM, I’m erring on the side of me. I think your comment applies to Natalie’s suggestion: “Neither party was empathising with the other or respecting their own positions.Your frustrations with others provide a window into understanding where you may need to adapt, not because what they’re doing is your ‘fault’, but because if there is something that you can address, you won’t continue letting their behaviour have a hold over your energy and happiness. It helps you know your own boundaries and values.” At least, your comment and Nat’s spoke to me with regards to where I could be…who knows! I hear you about feeling spiky and like a clod hopper. Maybe it relates to letting their behavior have a hold over our energy and happiness? Maybe it’s like your little toddler, we are learning how to walk and talk with our self-esteem and boundaries in tow? I think it is okay if we make a mistake, not saying you did.
BTW, who knows about the nice, good-looking and very together bloke. If your fur went up and you hissed, so be it. That’s how you felt. Period. I think we’ll get the hang of interacting with others based on our boundaries and values, it’ll just take some time. You’ve got the focus on you and your son. That’s what is important. You are an amazing woman. That is the most important. I don’t know if I offered any tips.
Thank you 🙂
Not that I’m glad of your discomfort, but whenever I read your dating stories (which by the by, I absolutely LOVE – I really hope you meet a lovely man, like, but in the meantime some of your posts about AC-Deterrence make me punch the air) I always picture you as this absolutely poised Queen Of Cool. So it’s really comforting to know that it hasn’t felt as though it’s come naturally to you, either!
Re: what you’ve said about learning how to walk and talk with self-esteem… it made me think about when I was a novice teacher. The first time a student came into my class wound up about something else and kicked off at me I completely freaked, had a big shaky-and-sick reaction and handled it very badly. The next time was slightly better, but only slightly. These days it wouldn’t make me break my stride BUT it doesn’t happen – I can see it coming a mile off and head it off without incident.
If I can learn to do it with stroppy teenagers then I can most DEFINITELY learn to do it with the generally-pretty-nice people around me, hey?
Thanks again – I think you’re amazing too! (and son is totally GORGEOUS, I’m a little bit sorry that I can’t post a picture of him on here…)
yoghurt,
That part about the guy approaching you was sooo familiar for me! I’m trying to get back to the dating thing, yet I can see how deeply wounded I am. I’m not spikey, yet I’m totally numb to any of the guys trials to get closer with me. A particular guy tried touching my hand on a date and I’ve noticed with a horror that I pull back and shrug immediatelly!:(
Yoghurt I agree with the others. You are probably being way too hard on yourself. You need to be confident that just by being yourself, that is not only good enough, but the best you can be, as you are being authentic. Even if you are a little spiky sometimes, so what?
You mentioned having problems verbally. I also struggle with this sometimes, and find I am much better “in writing.” You are clearly FANTASTIC in writing, very expressive, funny and readable. Would you be able to organise the fun days out, other stuff, more by email? That would show everyone just how brilliant you are, and then if you are a little “clunky” verbally, they will find it easier to interpret?
When you listen to your colleagues I bet they say the wrong thing at the wrong time, use the wrong words, sometimes are spiky, negative, boring. You cannot possibly live in a land where everyone else is perfect and you are a big sad failure. I do not believe this. Just keep going and be yourself.
Ms Yoghurt, I think you are just “thinking” too much when you are interacting with your friends sweety. Try not to be so self conscious – everyone has a different personality and something to contribute just being who they are. they are already your friends or they wouldnt be hanging around with you, so dont feel like you have to always be witty or sharp or anything else – just be you and try not to overthink it. Im typically a quiet person and I listen alot more than I talk, but I dont think of myself as shy or overly introverted – I just say something if I think something needs to be said, make a joke if I think of something funny, say stupid things ALL the time… its ok, theyre your friends :). Same thing for guys – I know youve been through alot and have your armor on, but someday that will go away and someone will be persistent enough to get closer… and just dont worry about how you are being at the moment. just do, dont think.. Just dont be disrespectful to anyone who isnt to you.
This was a good post too, the best part being the end point – look at these relationships and issues you dont particularly like in terms of what YOU can see or change about YOU to avoid the pitfalls and drama in the future, or extricate yourself from situations you know cause you trouble. Thats such an awesome message – because we all know we cant change anyone else, no matter how bad we think or wish we could.. but we can all learn from the experiences and be better or more careful because of it.
Im almost embarrassed to be on a “women’s site” as much as I am lol.. and you ladies definitely have different perspectives than men do on alot of things… but more than anything finding this place and reading Nats posts and all of your comments have shown me that everyone, man or woman, wants the same things in life. Its just a matter of getting alot of those things from yourself first, so we make better more appropriate choices about others.
Hey Bob
Well, I’m glad you’re here – thanks 🙂
I’m hoping that the self-consciousness passes with time – I guess it’s like when you’ve just passed your driving test and you mutter “clutch, first gear, accelerator, biting-point and away! Oh crumbs I’ve stalled” all the time. But it comes with time.
Thanks Victorious, this made my day.
“You cannot possibly live in a land where everyone else is perfect and you are a big sad failure”.
Really good point… but the other thing is that if either or any of us WERE to meet an actual factual bona-fide ‘big sad failure’ then you’d hope we’d give them a chance, get to know them and not just automatically throw them on the rubbish heap. So how come we don’t do that for ourselves?
Also worth saying that even in the depths of my social ineptitude, it’s STILL better being authentic than the days when I had lots of friends but completely cocked-up values.
Heya lau_ra
I’ve had similar reactions, I think it’s part of the re-wire.
Thing is that in my low-self-esteem unheyday, I forced myself beyond my comfort zone when it came to physical contact from men and allowed myself to be pawed in a way that, looking back, made me totally uncomfortable.
Now I find it difficult to establish what is Appropriate Contact and what’s not, but in light of the fantastic posts that I’ve had in reply on here I think it’s part of the process and it’ll come with practice.
So don’t feel horrified – have a read of cc’s brilliant post above and apply it to yourself. EVEN if it’s a mistake (which isn’t to say that it was) then that’s perfectly okay xx
Yoghurt,
I relate to much of what of what you said. I feel awkward socially a lot. I ramble and say weird things that people don’t get. I feel normal in my thoughts but it comes out all strange. I read a book on having better conversations and it helped some but then I felt like I wasn’t being me, like I was trying to hard instead of being confident in my own self and my quirks so I end up frustrated with others and myself. I’ve been called stand offish and aloof but when I try not to be I feel like I’m trying too hard to be liked. For me, I understand where this came from. I was left alone a lot as a child and learned to be a loner by necessity. I played by myself in the woods or in fields surrounding my house. I was bullied and picked on constantly for my appearance in school until I was about 14 so I avoided interaction with other kids because it was painful. When someone was nice, I latched on because I needed a friend so badly. I function okay now as an adult in very casual settings but when it comes time to let people see really who I am, I get tongue tied and the real me retreats. Then the mutant comes out. Its frustrating.
selkie:
I’m going to recycle victorious’ comment here and say that I love reading your posts and the ‘real you’ is clearly brilliant (just in case you ever doubt it!).
Your history sounds a lot like mine – I was also a loner and got picked on at school and when I’m in a state about this issue I go back to feeling EXACTLY like the socially inept teenager who blurted out the wrong thing – when I picture myself in those situations I see my first secondary school photo. Mutant ahoy!
But that was nearly 20 years ago, and I need to work on remembering that if I haven’t changed in 20 years then I’ll be the only person in the world who hasn’t.
I was thinking about this after I posted (like you do) and one of the things that I realised – if it helps – is that we’re really under no obligation to be an all-singing all-dancing Delight To Be Around. Very few people actually are. The other thing that I remembered is that plenty of people have liked me on closer acquaintance. I know that they say first impressions are 90-odd% of whatever whatever, but so what? I refuse to believe it.
The fact that I’m probably never going to be good in big groups of people and my social anxiety rules out Cocktail Party Hostess as my true vocation, but meh. I can live with that.
Thanks for your reply, though – it IS super-frustrating and I know that the fact that I read it and thought “selkie! Stop being so hard on yourself, you’re obviously marvellous” doesn’t necessarily make the frustration go away. But it’s true anyway 🙂
Thank you for the sweet encouragement Yoghurt. You are marvellous too!
It might just be over-emotionalism or somesuch, but I’ve felt totally overwhelmed tonight by the utter brilliantness of all the replies that I’ve had to my post. They’ve been so helpful.
This time last night I was in a complete funk – that has been building up for a month or two – about how much of an isolated freak of nature I really am, but after reading all the wisdom on here I’ve realised the following:
a) it’s normal, don’t fret
b) recognise when you’re maximising the bad and minimising the good
c) keep at it and
d) care for yourself properly.
And now I feel fine.
All stuff that I’d have said I knew, but your posts have really helped to bring it home for me.
So thanks everyone (and of course Nat for continually brilliant posts. AND for letting me clutter up the comments board – I really wanted to reply to everyone because so many really good points were made). I am SO glad that I found this blog.
yoghurt-
no clutter, i’d wager that this is exactly what the comments are for.
and we ALL need reminders, we all need others who are willing to share wisdom so we can de-funk and uncoil. because, don’t forget, you share your wisdom too. so all is as it should be.
*smooch*
“They won’t let you be who you are… but you won’t let you be who you are either *and* you actually don’t like who they are either and want them to change.” Guilty as charged! Actually, when I saw that this was happening, I realized that neither of us were really getting our needs met and we were both trying to change the other person. We were trying, but going nowhere, so I ended the relationship.
I’m having this exact issue with some friendships. One is all but ended and others are fading out. I feel more positive and less stressed, but….I’m sad about it.
I think there is another gal that is ‘getting there’! More power to ya. We are all ‘getting there’ the last couple of posts again have spoken right to my heart. I am 2 months NC. Proud of that. I have had a couple of run ins with no more than a hello or is casual comment to get his ego stroked. I feel strong at times and then I feel like a puddle of mush. How can I be angry at him wishing for nothing but bad things to happen to him and at times still miss him and feel like a wounded abandoned puppy.
Today’s post helped me make a crack into the fact that I my sadness and anger are about ME. As obvious as his narc behavior is now, I am struggling to let go of the illusion, that ill be the exception. I gotta refocus that I am on the path. That this will get better. I have put so much time and energy alone in my head going nowhere. I don’t want to waste anymore time. Thanks for the post and for the forum. I keep learning.
Getting there…. it is very normal to go from strong to a mush puddle. You had good times and you want them back so your mind plays games. I have been there. Yes I realized the obvious narc behavior too in retrospect but there is that other side that makes us hang on to the “good” person we thought he was and the death of the illusion tends to make us obsess. I am strong in that I know I will never go back to him but the NC has been so tough for me. I know my life depends on it because I don’t want to do the post break up dance as long as the relationship lasted and I know we can never be friends. Now he is “just somebody that I use to know”
I’m going to start repeating to myself everytime I start down the road of ‘missing’ my exMM AC Narc – “I want a REAL relationship, not a pretend one”, over and over and over until I ‘get it’…
as usual…right on the money.
Yoghurt-
I can relate to your post. I’ve become isolated myself lately and have to push myself to get with friends. I’m not feeling so lonely as much as I’m actually enjoying my space and even push friends and family away with a bunch of excuses as to why I can’t hang out with them. I also find myself intolerant of their behavior and think it’s partly related to some insite I’ve gained into myself. I do not want drama anymore and most of my interactions were very drama filled so I keep a distance now. After reading this post however, I can’t help but wonder if what I’m not wanting to tolerate from others isn’t somehow related to what I don’t tolerate about myself. People can be great mirrors of ourselves. I agree with your last sentence about self esteem. I found my self esteem drained in the presence of certain people. Staying in seems to preserve it somewhat and allows me to rebuild what was lost. You’re “nice try buster” comment also hit home. I think I’m so cautious of Assclowns that I don’t know if I could spot a good guy if I ran smack into him! If you do choose to stay in, do things for yourself that feel good. Try to get with friends when you feel like it, but don’t beat yourself up if you don’t feel like it. Hugs to you and thanks Nat for another insiteful post. I love when you make us look inside for the answers rather than blame the Assclowns in our lives.
“I do not want drama anymore and most of my interactions were very drama filled so I keep a distance now.”
It’s like relearning a language, isn’t it? Before my massive crisis, I worked for a counselling charity and I remember how liberated I felt by the realisation that I could sit back, not talk very much and Be A Good Listener. It took the pressure off, socially.
Actually, being a good listener is a really nice quality to have, just not when it means that you just end up absorbing the incredibly awful dramas of every nutjob in a ten-mile radius. Ever since I had my son, I’ve reacted against that by talkingveryfastandloudlyaboutmyself every time I feel myself getting dragged into that dynamic… the other extreme, but again not the best!
I have to say that I’m really reassured by how many people have shared similar feelings and experiences – makes me think that it must just be a natural part of the process for a lot of us! Thanks for replying and I’ll keep plugging away at it if you will!
Great post as usual Nat. I joined a singles group at church a while ago and felt irritated because people in the group did not seem to be too welcoming or friendly. After some introspection, I realized that I could be friendlier. So I now make it a point to greet, chat up, and welcome people in the group. Initially, I felt that the men thought I was flirting with them (I wasn’t) and were kind of standoffish and nervous when I approached them. Now, they see that I am like that with everyone, so they appear to be more relaxed and engaging.
Wow! You always hit the nail on the head..want to know how long I have been “struggling” with the ex whose neglectful behavior I hate, UNTIL he writes some kissy-face words in a text and then I’m “crazy about him again” ..13 years!
I have finally become bored stiff with the nonsense, but it has been a process..I thought I would “die” without the contact…silly, of course, it appears I am quite alive!!
Seriously frustrated this week. My sustainability program was killed by a major screwup from someone high up in the powers that be. Two years of my and several other folks work wasted. House was re valued today and yep, I’d loose a lot of dinero if I sell anytime soon. Job opps for senior academics crap this week as usual. Frustrated and full of rage. Sooo looked forward to doing something that meshed better with my values, got me outside a lot (always feel really trapped during the school year ), would’ve put my campus and this community on the map in a good way, and created some jobs for folk who really need em. It’s almost as though the west is become a huge place of loss no matter what I do. Reading todays post and this weeks events made me even more careful to be sure and keep my word to others, always come through on promises. I seem to have a real difficulty dealing with betrayal both with this incident, with the issue that made me come west in the first place, and with the AC. I guess I’d better make damned sure I am not and do not betray others, eh?
Hi Yoghurt. When I was married, I was isolated. My husband, nice as he was wanted ALL of me all the time. I did not have friends, and rarely interacted with others, except those at work. I felt exactly the same way, experiencing every feeling you have felt. My self esteem was very low and I was exceedingly self-conscious around my peers. My husband passed away 7 yrs now ( I can’t believe it is that long, already). I’ve had to get out and about and shift for myself. It was a huge “coming out of my comfort zone”, and it wasn’t voluntary or without resentment. Over the years, developing friendships, I’ve become much more comfortable talking to people and expressing in an intelligent, confident manner. My self esteem has been improving because of my interactions with people, and, in turn the interactions have positively impacted my self-esteem. I no longer feel like, to use your term, “a clodhopper” that should not open her mouth and show how dumb she is.
It’s like anything else. The more you do it, the more capable/successful, and thereby comfortable you become. You know these things about yourself so you won half the battle. Work at it. You’ll do better in your own assessment, which is more important than anyone else’s. (((Hugs))), Tink.
Cheers Tink, that helped. It’s really useful to think of it as ‘coming out of my comfort zone’ (as opposed to ‘being EXPOSED as the dreadful social misfit that I REALLY TRULY AM’ etc) – a good reminder that, as my dad always says, “difficult things are difficult”… but they get easier with practice.
Arggh, I’m so FRUSTRATED, I could scream. How do I adapt? My frustration isn’t about me per say, it’s about my 23 yro daughter who is exhibiting every single FBG tendency imaginable. She jumped from bf #1 to bf #2 in a matter of weeks. Then jumped to bf#3 within in month. Of course, I suggested a time out, to no avail. Come to find out, she’s not over bf #2 and he’s stringing her along. Surprise. So, she asked: “Why does he call and text if he doesn’t want me back”? “What I want is to be with him. He’s the one. I’ve tried everything to get over him. I can’t get over him.” Apparently, his response is that he wants her in his life but he’s not interested in getting back together. They could “be friends”, according to him. It was like reading Mr. U and the FBG, only it was my daughter echoing the script of the FBG. She is clinging to an illusion and believes her life is pretty much over at 23 unless she is with him. He’s taking advantage of her and she’s offering herself up as a doormat. I’m fighting the urge to show up the home at Mr. 23 yro Unavailable and tell HIM all about himself. Since he lives with his parents, they may not appreciate the ex’s mother showing up to read their son the riot act. It is the most frustrating thing in the world to watch this brilliant, absolutely gorgeous young lady fall prey to being a FBG. Of course, the apple didn’t drop fall from the tree. Her behavior is mirror into my own. Poor bf#3 who seems like a nice guy. He’s kind of left hanging. I’m thinking it’s time to pass BR on to the next generation. I can’t simply hand her the book so I’m looking for just the right post in the archives that may provide her with the incentive to keep reading. Any suggestions as to the perfect post that would hook her would be appreciated. Sheesh, when you see your kid go through this, it is a frustrating eye opener. Everything I said about my daughter, applies directly to me. Both our availables check off every bullet point in this post and we do too. Fortunately, I’m two years out and have two years of BR. Thus, I can use my BR air mask to help her. I still want to wring the little Mr. U’s neck. “Be friends” my fricking ass. That’s mama bear speaking. I’ll apply the BR mantra and focus on her, not him. Arggh. Where is the right post? Brownie cookies didn’t work.
i’m 27 now but began my illustrious career as a FBG when i was 23. i always say that i wish i had found BR earlier but really i wasn’t ready to pay attention to the truth at all years ago. i had to have my epiphany relationship. my friends would always tell me how i was carrying on like a person with no self esteem but i didn’t see my self as having low self esteem at all, my parents were loving, i was smart and at a good university, i was pretty enough, i just thought i hadn’t met a good guy yet cos college was full of frat boy jerks.
you have to wait until she has an epiphany before you bring out the full guns of how she can change. have you ever tried to tell an addict they should quit when they ain’t in the quitting zone yet? or how bout those religious converters in the street handing out bible verses that you ignore? that’s how you come off when you try to get to her before she is ready. it is frustrating but there are small things you can do . instead of showering her with frustrations/pleas to see the light shower her with affirmations of her worth. all the suggestions we give each other here on BR to build self esteem , secretly incorporate them into your interactions with her but don’t explicitly state your goal is to raise her self esteem . things like making sure she treats her body right exercise, eat healthy, deal with fears she has about the future jobwise etc ( that she is using the EUM to distract from), address any false believes she has about love in general not specifically these relationships that may stem from your example, make sure she is working on HER-centred activities to improve herself. her self esteem may be improved by engaging in these activities especially if she has no idea that they are for improving self esteem that she may incorrectly believe she has tons of. the raising of her self esteem may fast forward the epiphany which will bring her back to zero and then you can pounce with the book and anything else you ever wanted to tell her about fallback girls. every one of us had to discover the truth for ourselves FIRST before we get help from others. good luck! i wised up seven years later and glad that i will enter my thirties with a fresh approach to life and i’m gonna stick with it. she WILL too.
Kookie,
This is such great advice. I have a friend who has taken up with a Mr Unavailable and is moving across the country to be with him. I have to sit on my hands to not say anything. After much thought, I realized I needed to do exactly what you propose in your post.
Runnergirl
I think every mother experiences that sinking feeling on seeing their child making the same mistakes they did. But there are some mistakes everyone just has to make for themselves. You have to burn your fingers once to really understand why you need to keep them away from the flame. The things you can do are leading by example and offering support and advice at a time when she is ready to listen and able to benefit from it. At the moment perhaps not.
I have this issue with my older son and his endless pursuit of immediate gratification, his temper, arrogance and belief that he knows better than me, his teachers etc. I really worry that these personality traits are going to cause him problems as grows up. There are some things I can do about this but confronting him directly doesn’t work. I have to figure more subtle ways of helping him to change himself. Ultimately I suppose I have to accept that I may not be able to.
This is my “go-to post” https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/is-it-love-or-is-it-fear-drama-and-pain/
I do agree though that you may have to keep making vague mutterings about “words and actions don’t match” and “he’s just not that special” whilst she goes through the agony as she may have to have FELT it for herself before she can truly understand. I have a daughter and I appreciate you want to spare her this pain, but actually, maybe she will be a better person for going through it? And she has the advantage of having you when she gets to the other side. You don’t have to read too many posts on this site to appreciate the value of a loving mother.
*holds runner’s hand and sits next to her, quietly*
Oh thank you so much ladies. Of course you are right. I was so in the midst of my frustration and anger,I overlooked the fact (again) that she has to experience her own life as a young adult and make her own mistakes. This seems to be a reoccurring theme since she returned home a year ago, actually it’s a reoccurring theme for 23 years. I keep wanting to jump in and rescue her. I could and did when she was a kid. Now, I can’t. The universe seems to be presenting me with the same lesson. I get it. This is where I need to adapt. So brilliant. My frustration over not being able to control my daughter’s life and make it perfect is once again a window to understanding where I need to adapt. I followed your advice. I had several opportunities to causally make subtle comments about how well she is doing focusing on her life.
Mymble, good luck with your son. It sounds as though you have come to some peace with your frustrations. You are a good role model for me.
Victorious, that’s funny. That is the post I thought about too. I’ve just let things be though. She’s not ready. I’ll be there when she is and be there on the other side.
Kookie, congratulations. Your post gave me such hope that maybe it won’t take her 30 years to figure it out like I did. There’s not much I can do right now. Like you say, she has to have her own epiphany relationship. Just cos I had mine doesn’t mean she’s gotten there yet. You sound so cool at such a young age!
Thanks Rev. I’m sitting quietly.
Frustration has lessened cos I’m learning the lesson.
Runner,
If there comes a time where you pass along a post or Nat’s book to your daughter, I think there would be a benefit, even if she’s not fully ready yet. The information may sit with her and be something that she can return to when the truth starts to sink in. At least this is what happened in my own experience.
Good luck. It’s clear how much you love your daughter and want to be there for her–she’s lucky to have such a great mother.
Yoghurt
I can relate. I feel like I´ve become this very shy person, and sometimes when I´m with old friends I even find it hard to maintain some chitchat – which is weird because we always used to talk for hours.
Yesterday when I came home there was this extremely handsome foreigner at the door, he had come over to stay at my downstairs neighbour´s flat. Only the neighbour wasn´t home so I offered him to come inside to call him and leave his things. He was so nice and friendly, I hadn´t met someone as attractive in a long time. He had no problem making conversation (though we spoke different languages and had some trouble understanding each other). Anyway, I felt kind of intimidated!
I found myself becoming shy instead of flirting away, as I would´ve done pre-BR.
Afterwards I tried to analyse what that was all about and I think it had to do with fear. And now I´m thinking that perhaps I was just afraid of meeting someone I could really like. Afraid of feeling attraction because what if it´s mutual? There must be some reason for this cowardliness, only I haven´t deciphered it yet.
Heya lilia – thanks for replying 🙂
I have similar reactions to men that I find attractive – in my case I think it’s because a) I’m frightened of making promises that I don’t want to have to keep (although this is partly not trusting my ability to stick to my boundaries) but I also realised recently that b) I’ve ALWAYS been intimidated and made nervous by attraction.
I used to deal with it by getting hammered and leaping into bed with them but as that didn’t work very well then apparently I’ve got to go back to basics and deal with it SOBER… must admit that part of me is going “Oh &%*$! Thought I’d got round that one!”
I don’t know if either of those ring any bells with you? I’m also very shy, even round old friends, but I think that that’s partly the effort of sticking to all my shiny new boundaries and things – it’s new, it requires concentration and I guess when you’re practising something new then it takes a while before you can do it unconsciously so that you’re not hyper-aware and anxious.
I feel reassured that lots of people feel this way – fingers crossed it wears off in time, hey?
Yes, yes, that´s exactly it, Yoghurt! I´ve always felt intimidated by attraction. Then in my 20s I just decided to jump in with my eyes closed (no matter the scenario and conditions) because I thought I was being weird and feeling attraction was supposed to be fun, right? At least everyone around me was acting like it was natural and desirable, having casual encounters all the time. I didn´t want to be prudish so I just repressed my shyness.
Now I feel like I´m back to how I was at 14. You know how you got all nervous and scarlet-faced when some cute guy smiled at you? I´m like that now.
I really hope it´s just a phase.
I am 47 and still like that. Once I had a business meeting with a bloke I really fancied and I actually broke out into a full on sweat! Soooo attractive! It was pouring off my face and I am usually the Coldest Woman In The World. TM.
So, it was all an illusion… him Mr U, me Ms U I guess. I mean.. I went along with it. At first things were good .. so there was a bit of the future projection in there or whatever it’s called. He really did chase me.. and that felt good. Felt nice to be the focus of someone’s attention. And, I lapped it up.
Then, I’d wait for the good days.. the days he wasn’t tired, or stressed or in a bad mood… those came after the first month.. and more frequently each week after.
Then came the increasing coolness…and the indignation of why was I asking him questions. Then came the ‘it’s done with, I like my ex more and I’m seeing her now…yes she’s married but she says it’s only a financial arrangement.’ (funny how that was how he described his marriage..it ‘is over, I’m just living there and will be moved in a year or so.)
The things he said after…”it was all a lie, it was just a game.. move on’ … and now, when I look back and think of the things he said .. Was it just a game the entire time? How come I didn’t see it? and now, after a week of it being over .. I still feel stupid and daft for ‘how could I believe that anyone nice could really like me? And, this hurts…so much. (Into the never evers).
So the things that bugged me … should have never trusted him. And he’s back to his ‘ex’ and I’m wondering and driving myself crazy right now… wondering if he’s happy, does he miss me…was it really all a lie, a game .. and how do I spot these sooner in future? And of course that old, old worry … should I just go back to forgetting about every finding a person who can love me….why am I so hard to love?
taira
he was a “good” boyfriend for one month and on the back of that you have projected a whole non-existent relationship that you are sorry to lose.
As Nat has said, anyone can be anything for x amount of time. Even grumpy, introverted old me could be the perfect girlfriend for a month. Would I be playing games? Not exactly. I would be putting my best foot forward, ignoring anything dubious (eg not being over the ex), and hoping for the best. I might promise you the moon and the stars? Am I a liar? Not quite, but I am unrealistic.
There are a few things you can do to help yourself in the future:
1. Don’t have sex too soon. I’m celibate until marriage, but if I hadn’t been I would say it was about month three where I knew my boyfriend well enough to be sure he wouldn’t switch on me after sex.
2. Beware hot pursuit. I wouldn’t go so far as to say hot pursuit is ALWAYS followed by a big cooldown but I’ve not experienced or heard otherwise.
3. Keep your expectations in check. Even if you can’t stop imagining what you would look like in a wedding dress, at least keep reminding yourself that it’s TOO SOON to be picking out your kids’ names. Don’t tell yourself that your fantasies = this is significant.
4. Love yourself. Until you respect yourself, care for yourself, and know yourself, you won’t be able to tell whether someone else loves you. You will think that attraction, attention, being nice to you = love. They are part of it but a person can give you all that without loving you or even caring very much.
5. Realise that love grows over time and until x months have passed (I can’t say for sure, but I’m going for 3-6), it’s lust or it’s like. That way, you won’t be telling yourself you lost the lvoe of your life when you barely know someone.
Yes you can meet someone, no you’re not hard to love. Until you at least 60% believe that, I wouldn’t date.
I don’t think this guy is that nice either. He sounds flaky, deluded and irresponsible.
Hi Tairaruth,
You said, “I still feel stupid and daft for ‘how could I believe that anyone nice could really like me? And, this hurts…so much.”
Honey, I know a lot of us have felt that way. Please don’t beat yourself up for…well…beating yourself up. But let’s look at the facts, my dear. He *wasn’t* a nice guy, from what you’ve described. And the fact that he actually admitted to you that it was a lie and a game cements that fact even more. I know it’s hard to understand, but really, with these guys it’s not personal. It’s how they operate, whether you’re a clerk at Baskin Robbins or the Queen of Sheba.
This comes back to you at the end of the day, Tairaruth. It’s not because you’re unlovable that this has happened (or even, possibly, has kept happening in the past with guys?). All you need to do is realize that you need to set the bar higher with men. I’m not talking about finding a stockbroker or someone who has a full head of hair or any of that superficial crap. I’m talking about a man with integrity and character who wouldn’t dream of disrespecting you. You deserve that. Don’t lower the bar, but keep it high. Someone, a good man, WILL meet you at that level. It’s NOT too much to ask, but, in fact, the LEAST you should expect. And never, ever beat yourself up for someone else treating you badly. Here’s a big hug from me: (((Hugs Tairaruth)))
I read this whole article in context of my relationship with my boss and job. Every several months my boss demeans and humiliates me. The blow she dealt me at Christmas was especially unsettleling and I sent my resume out to a couple jobs that I’m interested in.
I have an interview this Friday and if I like their terms I will take it. Today I had a talk with my boss, mainly about my projects, workload, and what she has in mind for My Future with the company, and though my position seems stable, I know my boss will continue to devalue me and there will be regular episodes of her not appreciating my contribution., and this will be done in front of staff like usual.
So, I will go to this interview and if I see an honest opportunity for me to prosper I’ll take the job. I agree with this artical and continue to take ownership of myself and of my happiness.
I’ve learned so much from Natalie and the cements here. Thanks again!
I hope that your search for a new position is over soon!
Natalie, you deserve a PhD in psychology (if you don’t have one already).
Thanks for this insightful article and for your entire website.The support you’ve given me, and I’m sure many others, is invaluable.
I’ve got a long way to go, but I wouldn’t be where I am today without your support.
Keep up the good work!
Hey Getting There!!
That’d be me!?
Getting there is a challenge, but it’s so much more fun and liberating than staying put 🙂
Power on!!
I think that this…along with the last 2 posts, are bringing something into focus.
I have an acquaintance who I’ve known for a long time, and started to get close with. Then I learned some things about the way she treats her small daughter that I felt disturbed and distressed about. Plus she was very flakey about time and doing what she said she would do.
I told her how I felt, she hung up and I didn’t hear from her for nearly 3 months when she started texting “I love you!” out of the blue. I texted back (groan) how I felt mindfucked and I didn’t want to be mindfucked.
I feel HORRIBLE that I couldn’t somehow just be kinder and have more compassion and find some way to be a friend to her. Like something is wrong with me for not being able to get along with her when it seems so many other people adore her and can…
I feel uncertain – if this is okay. ???
I used to be like her in many ways, and it feels somehow wrong and bad to dislike her, like …I’ve been there, shouldn’t I be more accepting?
Like…she would put her daughter down for a nap at 4, wake her at 7, then spank the daylights out of her and vent her frustrations on her if the little one wasn’t ready to go to bed by 9. She would take her daughter to the house of someone she just met to leave her for the night to go meet up with a booty call. She left her daughter in the care of people she didn’t know (who I did, and wouldn’t go NEAR) to do stuff with me that I asked her to do but had no idea it was so stressful for her and she would show up as if I had some sort of expectation that she should move heaven and earth to please me.
On the other hand, she’s a great mother in a lot of ways, she plays music and dances with her and takes her to all kinds of cool community events and I love that about her.
So…as far as I can tell, there is nothing I can do here, that we aren’t going to work out as close friends but I can’t help but wonder
am I not empathising or respecting her position somehow?
If I check in, deep down, I do feel like I’m a better mother than her, so maybe that’s disrespectful.
I don’t know…it’s turning over and over and over in my mind and I’m trying to find some kind of peace with it.
Sunyata,
Your story of how this mother treats her little one made my stomache clench (literally) when I read it. No, I don’t think you’re wrong in your instincts (and judgement) that this woman is mistreating her child. Ugh. It makes me ill inside. *Must. fight. the powerlessness. of not. being. able. to. grab. that. child. out. of. there.*
Suntaya,
I’m not a mother, but I was abused by my own mother. If I’m out in the supermarket and I see a mom yelling at their kids or yanking them around by their arm (has happened a couple of times) I’ll approach and say: “Is everything okay here?” Maybe I shouldn’t. Maybe I’m judging. But oh how I wish someone confronted (in a respectful way) my mother when she was doing the shit she was doing to me in public. Of course what happened behind closed doors was much worse. I just feel like I have a responsibility—I don’t want other children going through what I did.
I’m not sure why you would want to be friends with someone who physically takes out her own frustrations on her child and dumps her off at strangers’ homes. My mother also took me to a lot of community events and paid money out the wazoo for me to participate in extra-circular activities. That didn’t excuse or undermine the fact that she was calling me a “little shit” and knocking me around. I don’t see that there was any problem in you telling this woman that you felt uncomfortable by the things you had observed. It does sound like she was mindfucking you. Who hangs up on someone and then texts them “I love you” several months later? Oh, wait. That sounds like something my mother would do.
No one is perfect, and it sounds like you are the type of person who tries to see the good in everybody. I know what that’s like. I don’t want people *judging* me, and I feel guilty about mistakes that I have made. This mentality, however, has kept me in relationships that were unhealthy. Natalie has written a brilliant post about *judging* others: https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/youve-got-to-call-it-as-you-see-it-why-you-mustnt-fear-judging-a-situation-or-actions/ It’s not about us thinking we’re God or sending lightning bolts someone’s way—it’s about determining what situations (and what relationships) we will or won’t opt into.
I made excuses for my mother’s behavior for years, but I’m realizing that there are certain things that are inexcusable, no matter how many perceived *good points* that person has. Perhaps this woman will “see the light” and change. For the sake of her child, I hope that’s the case. But it’s not your job to get her to change or to stick around *empathizing* with how she is treating her child. There’s just no excuse.
Thank you so much for your perspectives, I feel MUCH better now that I’ve chewed on it and felt into it and wrote about it a good chunk of the day.
It was a co-dependent relationship trying to happen and then a big rush of co-dependent guilt hangover 🙂
Looking back, I can see where I squashed my true feelings of alarm which is something that Natalie wrote about not too long ago – that the things you think you can ignore are the very things that end up being problems.
So…lesson learned, and I have a new dealbreaker.
Wow, I would not be able to function after witnessing such a stomach turning display. Sounds like she has Borderline Personality Disorder, or is a sociopath, this is totally abusive, pathetic, evil and not normal. Call child protective services, it takes an act of God to get a child removed from the home, but you have to start somewhere. What a sick piece of shit! My God! Hopefully the young girl will have a teacher or nurse report it in the future, and she will be effectively removed from the home.
I have really been struggling this week – last Sunday I ran into my ex with his new g/f (who he denied on new years eve he was interested in) He ignored me and I felt sick – I text him asking him why he had done that he said I had ignored him – since then I have been bombarding him with text messages, each one he has ignored, saying that I am happy that he has moved on as I would rather he be happy with someone else than stay with me but I couldn’t bear for him to hate me and I wanted to stay friends. He has ignored everyone and I feel so depressed and I really shouldn’t want to be his friend but I am so panic stricken
Hi Marie83, unfortunately he’s gone, it’s over and you can’t control it and you are doing yourself a disservice and damaging your self esteem by trying to get a ‘rejection retraction’ (see Nat’s blog on that). Sit on your hands, or, call a trusted friend everytime you get the urge to contact him. I know the feelings you are having, it is your attachment system being triggered, it’s not about him. Sooth yourself with nice things like a long bath, herbal tea, getting out in nature, spending time with a good friend. The only way out of these feelings is ‘through’, let yourself feel them in their entirety and they WILL pass. The time it takes depends on you and how willing you are to feel them and learn what they are there to tell you. There is a message, but you have to be willing to let it process to the message. I spent most of a month of all my free time in bed feeling like hell, barely ate and lost a stone in weight before the message really started to filter through, and I’m still learning but the worst is now long over. Cut yourself some slack and let the process happen, it will get easier, you will come out of it stronger and wiser…
Marie83, its nothing, but the dirty old games of ACs! I know how you feel, but please, remember that if attention and friendship isn’t given freely to you (you have to do things to *deserve* it), it is not worth having! In your case this guy doesn’t seem like a person who should be your friend – do you really want someone who is that manipulative: blames you for his choice to ignore you, and when you do stuff so he wouldn’t feel ignored, ignores you once again. Thats passive-agressive behaviour. Please, don’t engage into this grotesque dance anymore.
Listening to the radio while browsing in here and just heard one of my favourite songs, which happens to be very illustrative for all of us in here, but in a positive way: Jurga – 5th season. Never actually thought of the lyrics of this song until today.
Marie, I just spent a week on a group holiday with an AC I went out with only for 4 months but who has totally messed with my head. He didn’t speak a word to me all week which was unpleasant and awkward for everyone. I tried to catch him alone to ask what the problem was but I wasn’t able to so sent him a pleasant text asking if everything was ok. He ignored it. I spoke to him after holiday and he said the message made him livid and he doesn’t want to be friends (despite the fact we have a number of mutual friends) and that he will be civil to me for the sake of our friends but that’s it. He’s somehow made me feel responsible for the mess since I sent him a message, completely overlooking the fact he was totally disrespectful to me half the week beforehand. Please don’t give this guy any more of your attention, he isn’t capable of giving you the outcome you are looking for and you will only end up feeling worse. As the others say, passive aggressive behaviour, he is trying to control you and the situation. Take back some of the control and focus on yourself, give yourself the love and attention you deserve.
X
Ps. Only wish I could heed this advice myself!
@ Grace: great advice you gave to Tiara! I am applying what you wrote to my own life as well!
gina
Aw, thanks. I gotta give credit to BR and Nat’s books, and “Getting to Commitment” by Stephen Carter.
Another great post Nat. I am so consumed with anger, frustratrion and sorrow at how my ex treated me that I am dodging responsibility for my actions in enabling him to treat me like this. I turned myself into a pretzel trying to keep him happy and yet he dumped me for someone who is the polar opposite of me. What I have finally come to terms with (and these posts really help) is that I was just not his type, NOR WAS HE MINE. We flogged a dead marriage beyond death to try and make it work but at the end of the day we had and always will have conflicting values and I will never make him the honest, trustworthy, empathic man I wanted and I will never be the physically perfect woman he was looking for. I can strive to meet my own perfection of beauty and that is what I need to focus on. I also realise I need to stop beating myself up over all the mistakes I made in diminishing my own worth and self esteem by trying to make him like me. (Oh how I cringe when I type these words). He was all I knew for 28 years, and I suppose I miss my uncomfortable comfortable, but I know and believe there is a MUCH better life for me. All I need to do now is find the energy to focus on building it and stop the merrygoround in my head of all our recent tooing and froing.(He said this, I said that, lather, rinse, repeat). I know it won’t be easy, but I’m aware, willing and able.
While I was a late bloomer only ever having my first relationship at 23, I’m so privileged that at 24, I’ve already had my first ‘epiphany relationship’ too. My ex-boyfriend was a real assclown and emotionally unavailable, which of course, I only see now that we’ve broken up! I thought I’d learnt from all my friends’ past mistakes in their teens – I told myself I’d never be the fallback girl, but low and behold, I did.
We’ve been broken up just over a month now and I’ve been telling my friends all about him and why our broken relationship was all his fault. I knew I played my part in it, but I never realised how much until I read this post. My EUM was very judgemental of people, but I’ve been judging myself as not good enough to find a job with my university degree. He was shallow and superficial, but I’m struggling to move on because I’m still physically attracted to him (although I didn’t pay attention to his looks when I first met him) and I thought he wouldn’t break up with me because I considered myself pretty. He took advantage of me by always asking for nude photos, I’d tell him I didn’t like it, but still sent them and when he asked for more, I continued to do it. He indirectly told me so himself that he was emotionally unavailable and in turn, I became so myself.
My EUM definitely has own issues to work on, but so do I. I completely fell apart when he broke up with me, but in trying to pick myself up, I discovered Baggage Reclaim and now I see why it just wasn’t meant to be.
Thank you, Natalie! This website is my bible and you’re a goddess!
Tenneil, it was so nice, calming, and reassuring to read you post. I’m sorry you experienced the AC/EUM phenomenon. However, as you recognize, you are privileged. My 23 yro daughter is on the borderline of doing the classic FBG scenario and I so want to “save” her. You are so fortunate to have found Natalie and BR at such a young age. It is really cool that you already see that your EX-EUM (don’t forget the EX) has his issues but so do you. When I discovered BR, it was all about what a rat-bastard he was. Slowly with the help of Natalie and the wonderful BR community, I started to focus on me. Low and behold, I had a few issues of my own…lol. You sound like such a fast learner. You’ll find a job and congratulations on your degree. Go gently with the self-judgment while you are job hunting. This website is my bible too and Nat is a goddess.
Hmmm…just for the record, I’m not a fan of sending nude photos. Who knows where they could end up. But you gave me a great idea, if a guy ever asks for nude photos, I’ll send him some photo of a random woman and then block him from here to Sunday.
Runnergirl, I think I read somewhere that a suitable response to a creepy request for nude photos would be a pic of some enthusiastic sportsmen – volleyball maybe – at a nudist camp, in all their naked, hairy, happy glory.
Supporting you lots (virtually/in spirit) re your worry for your daughter. Also good to read all the responses to you as the dilemma could as easily be mine. Thank heavens for BR.
I was just reading your comments, runnergirl, and I’m sure in no time your daughter will get to the stage where I am at now. For some women, it takes longer than others and I guess the only thing you can do is watch her make mistakes, but be there for her and support her when she does. I think in this situation, if you try to control it, she’ll do the opposite of what you say because she’ll feel frustrated by it. It’s so easy to say something to someone or watch people go through these experiences themselves, but it’s totally different when you’re in it yourself.
My ex-boyfriend and I (it was weird saying boyfriend at first and now I’m getting used to saying ex!) were in a long distance relationship, so I had no choice but to focus on myself as I wouldn’t be seeing this guy for a very long time, maybe even never. I knew my ex-EUM was messed up, but little did I realise how messed up I am too! I’ve already learnt so much though and I can’t wait to put my new found knowledge into a new relationship when I’m ready. First, I want to focus on myself and get a job, I just need to keep having confidence in myself.
I tried to justify it saying we were in a long distance relationship and we wouldn’t be seeing each other for two months, but it was no excuse. He said he respected me because I didn’t give in, yet he’d still ask constantly. He said he couldn’t get enough of me, but he was just a pig and incredibly narcissistic. I think he just wanted to see how much he could get me to do for him. Every time I read about boundaries, I’m always reminded of this. Never ever again. I was so naive, but I’m a lot wiser now.
Good for you Tenneil. You sound very wise. No nude photos seems like a good boundary in this cyberworld. Even intense continuous cyber communication with little to no face-to-face interaction seems like another good boundary.
Keep the focus on you and finding a job. I know it’s difficult but the exLTR can’t help you, he could only distract you.
You and the others are so right. I didn’t listen to a word anybody said when I was in the middle of it. I sure as hell did listen once I fell back to earth with a heavy thud. Sending you tons of confidence in your job search.
Yep Yoghurt … for one, you’ve been in mommy mode for a whole, totally different mindset, AND now you have BR knowledge and you are getting out there a little awkward from newness, hyperalertness, some rawness, sea legs (I like), and its going to take some hiccups along the way as you practice what you have learned, this new differentiation the separating of oneself from others, respecting others/self, knowing when to speak up and knowing when to let it go, etc. I know exactly what you’re talking about. (I think … hee hee.) When I started my new job after I’d been asked to resign by an AC once best friend and dumped by an AC ex in a very short amount of time, and I had worked my ass of prior to, during, and after on myself and my self esteem, Im still a work in progress, I was a bit skiddish. It showed. (I could read it in my coworkers faces.) Just stay true to your feelings. Go with your gut. Feel. Be true to you. Be passionate and compassionate, who you WANT to be, who you were meant to be. Your joyous awesome self. Picture that Yoghurt you love and be her. You’ll be all right.
‘Skiddish’ is a great word to describe it.
Thanks lo j. Big life events are a bit like being picked up by a tornado and, when you come round, finding that you’re some 200 miles away from where you are and spending a lot of time wandering going “What? Where? WHY?”
Your comments have really helped me over the past few years – this seems like a good time to say how grateful I am 🙂
Sunyata. Perhaps you should keep it at the level of”acquaintance” and not progress to a deep, solid friendship. I agree with your disapproval of some of the things she does involving her daughter. But, she is an adult. You cannot run her life. You give examples of some things she does “right” which are important. But her disciplining is very private and personal and in that respect it’s “hands off” for you, unless there is abuse which is another story. You could offer to babysit the child sometimes since you feel so much compassion for her. Spend time and do nice things for her. The child may or may not reveal how she feels about her mom, but then, again that may not be reliable feedback, and you do not want to ply her with questions about her mom, etc. I’m sure you will work it out. I just don’t think this woman is someone you want to become deeply involved with for the reasons you have already stated.
Yoghurt … the more I practiced too, I also learned, finally, to figure out that there were ones that I belonged with. I was oblivious that my last place of employment was not a good fit for instance. (Like relationships.) I thought I could do more and make people happy. But then I realized, hey, I have options in who I choose as my employers, friends, coworkers (that I associate with) etc and raised my standards and my own behavior as well (gossip, work ethic, compassion for others, idle time, etc) and that I better be what I’m looking for in a friend, gf, employee/employer, etc. It is so simple for some but was a real change for me.
Thinking about this post in a romantic sense, I don’t complain about things I see in someone else because I lack those qualities within myself; it’s quite the opposite. I get frustrated when someone whom I am I’m a relationship with reveals that they lack the qualities that I possess such as: empathy and integrity. They put on a good show in the begining (mirroring), and once I am hooked then they show their true selves. My former counselor had me write up a list of the traits that I was looking for in a long term partner and read it to him. He listened and replied, “You are looking for someone who has the same qualities that you possess.”
I remember having a conversation with the ex boyfriend who was always complaining about how his so-called friends only called when they needed something. In spite of this, he would continue to chase after him. I told him that perhaps he might want to look at those individuals who showed him that they wanted to be friends by their actions. I then gave an example of how one of my former second graders would come to me during recess over the fact that her so-called friends did not want to play with her. I took her hand, lead her to the playground, and had her look for a liitle girl who was a loner. We then walked over to the girl and I introduced them. Before walking back to class, I told my student not to worry about people who do not want to be your friend, go and find someone who does. Both little girls played happily together, and I was able to get back to grading papers 🙂 The ex listened to the story and replied, “You were trying to control that little girl by forcing her to play with someone else.” What-the-what???? He missed the whole message that I was trying to convey. As a result, I was frustrated with him and how he perceived things–not because I shared the same viewpoint, but because he did not share mine. We were definitely unequally yoked so to speak. When I look back, I realize that he saw my actions as controlling (and that frustrated him) because he was a controlling person.
Right on the money!
Gina.
Is it not important to be looking for someone with whom you share the same goals and values? Not personalty traits as no two people will have the same personality. But, I certainly see no problem is wanting someone of excellent character, sharing those traits that you deem important. Perhaps you need to clarify with your therapist exactly what you are talking about and that it’s not just sharing hobbies or like interest. It’s deeper than that, isn’t it?
Empathy, and particularly integrity are qualities all of us BR women would and should be looking for in a long term partner after the crap we’ve been through. Had we valued these traits more highly we would have avoided a lot of headache and heartbreak which is, thankfully, has brought us here. Good luck to you, Gina. Yours in the struggle, Tink.
It’s funny I started to realize this in my last relationshit. I got frustrated when he procrastinated when I was just as guilty. I got frustrated when we were late when I was sometimes equally responsible. I got annoyed with his control tactics, although I pulled a few out of the bag myself.
Strangely, towards the end of the relationshit, I had started to focus on myself. I had started to see his behavior was not about me and stopped trying to change it. It was actually when I stopped trying to change things so much, that he saw me. He saw that I deserved much better and ended it. Truly, I had started to see him in reality, and it sucked. I was gonna stay though, and what I need to do is thank my lucky stars!
I remember in the beginning of the relationshit, I feared that as we continued to grow, he would no longer have use for me. In the end, I was really the only one interested in self-growth. The more I grew, the less attractive HE became. Although he ended it, it was truly a blessing!
I think the more we focus inward, the less others’ behaviors affect us. I even have the ability to self-reflect and question if the frustration is about me or them? I think some people never reach the stage of self-actualization or looking inward. When we meet someone with the same ability, it is refreshing and we can help each other grow. 🙂
I have a huge frustration with a coworker. I am extremely sensitive to scents such as perfumes and especially scented candles and ‘air fresheners’ though the people I share an office with are clearly not. The woman who occupies the office next to me uses an incredibly strong wall plug in that makes my allergies go bananas and gives me an incredibly bad headache and nauseau all day. I am a secretary at the office I work at. She works out of the office quite a bit so I get the brunt of the smell. I have respectfully said something three times. Each time she apologizes and it gets al little better for a while, and then is right back to where it started, the scent strong as ever. I am nothing short of miserable at work. She also holds a much higher position than I so I feel I must tread with caution. But this is RIDICULOUS. I can’t just turn off my sensitives and headaches. But she CAN just unplug that dang ‘air freshener’ and I wouldn’t be sick like this at work. Any thoughts? Anyone have a similar sensitivity or experience?
JT
I don’t like air fresheners either although I am not allergic to them.
In your situation I would not speak to her again. In the UK most employers have a grievance procedure whereby you can formally raise with management an issue that youre not happy with. Find out what the procedure is. Use it. If there isn’t then raise it with your manager. Set out in writing what the issue is, the problems and discomfort it causes you, and what you would like to be done to resolve it. Mention also that you have tried to resolve the issue directly with the person concerned , without success. If there is a trade union at your workplace, speak to your rep. Stay
at all times calm and measured in how you present your issue. It is not unreasonable, if the air freshener is materially affecting your comfort in the workplace.
I had this issue more than once–heavy perfume makes me cough and lose my voice, etc. Now if I have an issue with a co-worker, I go to our HR person as there is a clause in our employee manual about heavy scents that bother others. They immediately spoke to the person about it and it was taken care of. You don’t have to suffer; air freshener in the office is totally inappropriate! As bad as smoking. . .
Mymble and XFB Woman,
Thank you for the level-headed replies. It has always been a challenge for me to assert and maintain my boundaries and needs. I’m met with the challenges daily and better buck up and face them head on because no one else is for me. Onwards!
Jennifer T.
I surely know how ill sensitivities and allergies can make you, as I recently had to give up 2 little kittens that I had gleefully adopted. Your co-worker obviously does not understand your plight, and may just assume you are exaggerating your condition. I would go over her head to her boss. What else can you do? I know this is not a step you wish to take, especially since her position is senior to yours. However, don’t allow this fact to intimidate you. Stand your ground in your most polite manner, reinforcing that you have already addressed your co-worker several times about this issue. This is your health we are talking about. The air freshener is not essential in order to perform her job. Your superior needs to intervene at this point.
Thanks Tink,
I have every right to a healthy work environment where I am able to function with out feeling sick due to the selfish carelessness of others 🙂 Onwards.
& Tunkerbell:
“Is it not important to be looking for someone with whom you share the same goals and values?”
Absolutely Tink. I did not include those in my previous post, but similar goals and values are definitely high on the list.
Not personalty traits as no two people will have the same personality. But, I certainly see no problem is wanting someone of excellent character, sharing those traits that you deem important. Perhaps you need to clarify with your therapist exactly what you are talking about and that it’s not just sharing hobbies or like interest. It’s deeper than that, isn’t it?
It ‘s definitely a lot deeper than that. I had a list that included far more than I stated in my last post, which I read to my counselor. I was just feeling so exasperated Tink that I only listed what my heart was yearning for in the exact moment that I submitted my post.
@ Grace: you are most welcome!! Nat is amazing, isn’t she??
This article is about me and my mom. But as Natalie has said in earlier posts, the way you act in relationships is directly related to your family dynamics. And now I see that my relationships with jerks is about my relationship with my Mom. I am trying to improve that one, and having trouble with it because she doesn’t want to admit her issues.
JJ2 (haven’t postes here for awhile)
I am so trying to figure it all out, figure me out. I asked if he didn’t want to see me anymore. He said he didn’t know, he enjoyed the friendship and yes, the sex but didn’t wan to hurt me. I couldn’t believe it. He wasn’t concerned with that 16 yrs ago. Why now? It hurts so much, I don’t get it? He now has a conscience after all these years. He said there isn’t someone else. He enjoys being single and the peace of being alone. Well, why didn’t he tell me that 16 yrs ago?
Hopeful, I know how confusing and painful this situation is for you. If I put on my Columbo hat and decipher what this man is saying here’s what I gather:
1. I don’t want to hurt you = stick around long enough, and I will hurt you.
2. I don’t know = But I DO know that I don’t want the same things as you (a committed relationship) but I don’t want to give up the fringe benefits. Furthermore, I won’t actually tell you any of this because if I do, you’ll leave.”
Sorry girl, but these EUM’s are experts at speaking in code. Listen to what he is NOT saying…. there is real clarity in what he is not saying/offering you. Do right by you, it will suck in the short term but it will pay off once you get through the dark times at the beginning. Hugs.
Hopeful. I don’t want to be cruel, but it sounds like there IS someone else, or he’s bored? In any event it doesn’t look like he’s giving you much hope, both of you should know where things are headed by now! 16 yrs and the relationship is still in La-la land? Please, don’t waste anymore time. He’s not that special. Even worse, he doesn’t think you are special either. You don’t need him.
Thanks for everyones comments, i know that analysing his behaviour isn’t going to get me anywhere but down – maybe i’m just naive and expect if you treat someone with respect you’ll get it back
Well thats how its supposed to be – at least, as a lawyer, I have this way of thinking that there are certain rules of appropriate behaviour. Yet when it comes to ACs, its just *their* rules, and any other rule, which is not compatible with theirs (that means-any rule which requires seing people as a purpose, not a means for your satisfaction) just doesn’t apply.Its either AC way, or…AC way.
Analysing anothers behaviour might be useful but only for the purpose to identify what behaviour you don’t like in men and why exactly, cause that might reveal your personal issues. E.g. I understood I tend to be the one who is putting effort to make relationship work, even when its not worth it, I tend to blame myself for other persons issues and overlook the red flags.
Its way to early to say I’ve mastered the right way to handle those men, but I’m a quick learner and I can see in practise I’ve improoved a lot in those 6 months of being here. I’ve also understood that if I treat people with respect, it doesn’t mean they will do that too, so I have to choose those who are worthy of my time and any kind of effort.
I remember telling a friend about the EUM’s behavior and he said “it’s clear this guy feels like he doesn’t have to follow any rules.” That was an eye-opener. So true! He didn’t have to follow the rules about being married (he had had several affairs), he didn’t have to follow rules about how to treat other women, about how to be a friend, how to do his work with integrity, how to deal fairly with coworkers, about telling the truth, or anything else. I think that when people start crossing the line of decency in one part of their life, it makes it much easier to start crossing them in all areas of their life. It’s a slippery slope and they continue to do it because it works for them in some way. And there’s nothing you can do to get them to “see the light.” Best to get away from people like this as fast as you can because they are never going to follow any rules about treating you with respect.
Sad It is so true about the rules. They have their own set of rules for sure. The funny thing is they think they are decent when there is nothing decent about their unsavory behavior. These types will never treat you with respect on a consistent basis. They only respect you when you dump them. When you take them back they disrespect you again no matter what bs they sling about how they are going to change.
Natalie, you are so upfront. It baffles me/ I just can’t imagine you ever being a people pleaser albeit with a Mr Unavailbale. This gives me hope. I’ve been a people pleaser for most of my life. That’s changing and though it is much more difficult in the short term the long term pay off is grand.
My ex pretty much a compilation of everything I hated, feared and desired I’m myself. What a combination. It proved to be disastrous. Though this last effort at a dalliance near killed me, it is much harder to look at myself, my past, my decisions, choices, the time I’ve wasted, the time I waste, the unnecessary power I’ve constantly given day to day minute to minute moment to moment. I had no idea to live, how to go about living or what it meant. I’m still figuring it all out.
Truth!!!!
Thank you for this article, this is really helpful as I am often guilty of doing this and just recently realized how destructive a pattern it has been. In fact, while reading this article I felt an instinct to send it to a few of the people I love to “help” (i.e. control and change). Forget that! In focusing on all this improvement/changing of others I have become a complete stranger to myself.
I’ve been struggling to figure out my true boundaries and values, and since enrolling in the SE course I’ve been paying attention to my own feelings in situations to determine them. But tapping into these instincts I have to change others will no doubt be a goldmine since they are so prevalent in my life! Yay for reframing/recycling negative behaviors for positive growth!!!
I hated my ex for being irresponsible, though I won’t follow a budget if my life depended on it, when actually it kind of does, well at least my present happiness and future security. I hated that he was stuck at fifteen emotionally and maturity wise, yet I was at about thirteen and turned into a blubbering little girl, like a five year old version of me, when I was around him. I hated that he called me ‘dude’ and referred to anything displeasing to him (at the very least 50 times a day) as ‘gay.’ God, I really hated that one. Yet, I never policed or cared to change the constant stream of negativity and profanity that came out of my mouth nor the insensitive, overly cynical sense of humor I spewed. I hated when he was late, didn’t call, or was unreliable. I was mostly late. I hated that he introduced me to his friends/new people as his ‘aunt’ or ‘mother.’ But, though I was wildly attracted to him, I was so chicken and ashamed of him, I never introduced him to or brought him around my friends and or family. I hated that he binge drank. I binge ate and at times drank too much albeit mostly with him. I hated that he used recreational drugs. I used him as a drug, chasing that feeling, getting addicted to him and high on the pain, inconsistency, drama, and unreliability that inherently couples with an addict and all they bring. I hated that he wasn’t over his ex and had so many obvious unresolved childhood issues. Yet, though I hadn’t had a boyfriend in 5 years, I still wasn’t over any of my exes. Also, I was living in a big fog of painful childhood residue. I hated his nose ring. I really want a facial piercing for myself. I hated that he had this compulsive relationship with women and sex. I was jealous. I haven’t had intercourse with anyone in over six years. So there you see, we were just two peas in a very dysfunctional pod.
@ Jennifer Tiffany: unfortunately, your co-worker lacks empathy. She is only looking at the situation from her perspective and is unable to view it from yours. I could very well be wrong, but she may even be annoyed with you and think that you are overreacting.
I am frustrated with a co-worker of mine right now, and I am trying to see how it reflects on me.
She is full time, and I am hired on an “as needed” basis. She gets her day rate no matter what, so she is hired to work a certain amount of hours and is supposed to finish out the day, but if she goes home early, she will still get paid the day rate. So of course she wants to go home early, especially when staying late means just the grunt work is left. So when I am there to cover her, she wants to leave.
I get paid a lot less for pretty much the same work. She will say how this is the best job ever, but when there is more to do later in the day and she has to stay, she pouts and complains and makes me feel like she wants me to say, “Go home and have your fun life, sweetie, I can handle the rest by myself.”
It’s not fun to work with someone who really does have it made with the job but then complains about having to stay and do things that are PART of the job. We are paid to do the work and to work a certain amount of hours. I understand that it’s more fun to get to go home early and still get paid. So I either have to finish out the work day by myself knowing she is getting paid a lot more than me to skip out and have me finish up for her alone… or I have to work side-by-side with her pouting and slacking off the whole time.
Last week she pouted and did really bad work and STILL went home early while I stayed, and because I was the only one still there, I got scolded for the bad work that she did before she left. I told her that I got scolded for what was her bad work and was warned that the work needs to be better, but she just said that something must have gotten messed up after she left. But I saw that she was slacking off and doing bad work, and nothing could have messed it up after she left.
So it is probably better for me if she goes home early because I won’t do bad work and won’t get in trouble for someone else’s bad work AND I won’t have to be around someone who will pout and complain the whole time. But then if she does go home, I am there alone knowing that she is off enjoying her paycheck while I work and don’t get to do that. (I cannot leave early and will not make any extra money if I do).
I’m frustrated that she doesn’t take responsibility for having done bad work, and I am frustrated that she doesn’t have the work ethics to at least do some good work before she gets to leave early.
So does this mean that I am lazy and don’t want to work myself and would love to leave after a few hours and let the lesser paid people do the less exciting work and will pout and do bad work if I have to stay? Am I just jealous? I can see that I am envious that she has it made with this easy job that pays so well, and it annoys me that she complains about parts of the job when it is still a really sweet deal and those parts of the job she hates and wants to avoid really aren’t that bad. I guess I can see in myself that I could get spoiled by being able to do less work and to go home while someone else stays. But my work ethics wouldn’t let me do bad work before going home. I’ve been in her position in the past where I was the one with higher title and better pay, but I stayed the full day and made sure I did good work and that my co-workers had the supplies they needed and got a “thank you” at the end of the day. I am feeling very unappreciated and frustrated. But I need the money, so I gotta just take the work.
Can someone help me shed some light on what I am currently experiencing? Any input would be appreciated. I have been in a “text/phone call only” relationship for the past six months. To me it is a friendship but I have been told by a friend that it extends past friendship. I have known this man for many years, going on 13 years now. We started talking via text and naturally these texts became more and more personal as well as sexual – but never were sex. It was all sexual jokes and discussions (after about a month) but never like phone sex. He is involved in a long distance relationship and I am married (unhappily). He even told me one night that if he was not attached he would take me then and there. Anyhow, we have been texting for six months and I know a lot about him, as does he about me now, whereas before we did not know each other on such a level.
There will be times where he will text me about his inner most feelings regarding life, his late wife (who he misses dearly), and his state of mind and so on. I always reply no matter what, even if I cannot talk I will reply and say so. Then sometimes he replies to me, other times he does not. Sometimes he will reply a day or so later explaining why he did not reply, then other times I hear nothing from him which leaves me wondering what on earth I have done wrong or said wrong. I am currently in this situation now. Two nights ago he text me a loooong text which was pages long, and I said I cannot respond as I was busy. I told him I would reply the next day (yesterday), and I did as promised – I took the time out to reply properly which was also an essay long text. And now I have heard nothing back from him and it is killing me. Why do men do this? Neither of us are young teenagers, I am 40 and he is 50. Is he playing games, or am I just not that important to him to warrant a reply?