Recently I’ve found that quite a few readers place a high value on intelligence in their partners and it’s often the primary value that concerns them the most. These very same people are then bewildered as to why these ‘intelligent’ partners haven’t given them the relationship that they expected, and were in fact lacking in relationship and emotional smarts.
Intelligent partner doesn’t equal intelligent relationship doesn’t equal mutually fulfilling healthy copiloted relationship.
There’s nothing wrong with being attracted to or desiring intelligent partners but like anything you place a high value on, it’s important not to be blinded by it and make assumptions about qualities, characteristics and values that they might possess with that intelligence. It’s equally important not to overvalue that same quality or characteristic in yourself and be blinded to other aspects of you or use it to compensate for real intimacy.
Being intelligent is about having the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills. However being intelligent is not the same as being relationship smart, emotionally smart, or even street smart.
If it was the case, many of the people who read Baggage Reclaim who are very intelligent or even super intelligent by some of their claims, wouldn’t be experiencing the problems that they do in their relationships and in general life.
For a start (and bearing in mind that biology wasn’t one of my favourite subjects at the convent school), the parts of the brain that we use for being intelligent are not the same as what we use for our emotions. It’s also easier when you are intelligent and very good in your field because you follow a path, there are specific skills, methodologies, theories, textbooks etc that you follow and generate results. Some are also natural aptitudes – something that most people just don’t have for relationships.
Being relationship and emotionally smart are different and are made exceptionally more complicated when you throw in libidos, experiences, interpretations, beliefs, values, how you’re raised, confidence levels, how emotionally available you are and of course your self-esteem. I know a hell of lot of people who have low or even zilch self-esteem that are very high achievers. Why? Because they have the knowledge and the skills and can just ‘get on with it’, and particularly if they avoid their feelings and intimacy and bury themselves in their intelligence or work, plus they get recognition and feel respected and good in that field, it’s an easier way of getting validation.
Some of you who are very intelligent think that being intelligent with another person who is very intelligent equals intimacy and ’emotionally engaging’.
Without putting yourself fully into relationships and allowing yourself to be vulnerable and actually being relationship smart (as opposed to relying on your intellect and probably over intellectualising your interactions), relying on your intellect is basically like having an intelligent conversation with some sex and expectations thrown in and then thinking ‘Shazam! Job done and I didn’t even have to stretch myself emotionally.’
There are a lot more controlled elements with intelligence in the wider sense. You can be fairly sure that if you apply the knowledge and the skills and excel that great results will be achieved. Relationships don’t work that way.
As many of you have discovered, you can do something with the intentions to convey one thing and expect the other person to behave in a particular way, and then get an entirely different reaction.
So where does that leave you?
Don’t be blinded by anything that you deem to be of importance for you to forge a relationship or to be attracted. You can require whatever the hell you want in a partner but you still have to do the due diligence through the discovery phase of dating and actually get to know the person and not just sit there and say “Well they’re intelligent/beautiful/well educated/black/blonde/tall/great in bed/love the same interests hence ipso facto they will be able to love me, give me a relationship, and share the same values”.
Many of us fall into the trap of giving ourselves too much credit. We become attracted to someone, they possess certain qualities and characteristics and then we correlate it to the rest of them and assume that because we’re attracted to them, that they’re someone that’s ‘right’ for us that can give us the relationship we want. Hard as this may be to hear, that is laziness and blind assumptions.
It’s not about saying ‘Be with a stupid person’ because this is the extremes that I always encounter with this tenuous subject. This is the same thing I get when I say that you shouldn’t be blinded by chemistry, looks, passion, the colour of someone’s skin, how great they are in the sack, their physique, how much money they have. Next thing it’s:
So what are you trying to say Natalie? I should have a relationship with no chemistry/an ugly person/a dead fish/the opposite colour/someone that triggers my gag reflex when we have sex/someone who doesn’t take care of their body/somebody poor?
If you place a high value on intelligence, you still need to be involved with an intelligent, available person that you can have mutually fulfilling copiloted relationship with. Substitute ‘intelligence’ for whatever quality that you require and the computer will still spit out the same answer.
There’s no point in being with an intelligent person that treats you poorly or is emotionally disconnected. It’s also important to recognise that some very intelligent people will also very intelligently screw you over. I also know an incredibly intelligent person (seriously high IQ), a gazillion degrees – shag all social skills, can’t hold down a relationship, zero common sense, pain in the arse and arrogant. My children have four highly intelligent grandfathers who don’t do relationship or emotional smarts.
Many people wake up in a relationship that detracts from them and/or leaves them frustrated because they have things, like intelligence, that they’re blinded by that they use to override if not outright deny and obliterate real concerns in the relationship. That’s just not intelligent.
What you place a high value on in others says a lot about what you value or even overvalue in yourself or what you want someone else to bolster you with. If you’re intelligent or even ‘super’ intelligent, I suggest you don’t hide behind it and avoid emotionally engaging because it’s not anything close to an appropriate substitute. Just ask the Florence Nightingales of this world who fix/heal/help or those indispensable types that cook, clean, twist, turn, and contort for partners as a substitute for actual emotional intimacy and honesty.
If you don’t believe you’re that intelligent, putting someone on a pedestal and blowing smoke up their arse is also dangerous because it creates an imbalanced relationship where you’re looking up at them…from below. It’s also important to recognise that we can also be blinded to other great things in partners or ourselves when we only focus on one thing and make too many assumptions about it.
All that intelligence tells you is that they’re intelligent in the area(s) that you noticed their knowledge and skills. It’s one thing if they go on to demonstrate that they are relationship smart but if they don’t, you can’t stay there like a debt collector demanding that they pay up a skill that they don’t possess. While you may be tempted to ‘teach’ them, no ‘student’ learns anything and applies the knowledge in a subject that they’re not interested in or don’t ‘get’.
At the end of the day, like any assumption, if it doesn’t stack up in reality, you have to adjust your perceptions and expectations – that’s the intelligent thing to do.
Your thoughts?
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“There is no point in being with an intelligent person that treats you poorly or is emotionally disconnected. It’s also important to recognise that some very intelligent people will also very intelligently screw you over.”
One thing that kept me from just dropping the xAC was the fact he is a counsellor working on a psychology PhD. He would tell me how he would help clients with their problems, even how he dealt with depressed children. I figured if he was trained in a field where you have to understand relationships and how to help others, surely he would know what to do in a relationship. It was the biggest and worst assumption I had ever made. Not only did he turn out to be so emotionally broken, he also used what he knew to manipulate women (including myself). I imagine that’s how he has his harem, and had I not bumped into him and his new girl or found out how he cheated on me, I would have still been under his ‘spell’ for all I know.
I don’t need to look far to see that intelligence does not mean everything is perfect. I am considered intelligent by many having graduated at the top of my class and earned many awards. Even now, I am in a competitive program that only has a 10% acceptance rate. Yet, up until recently, I had zero self esteem and absolutely no relationship smarts. Both are reaching healthier levels now.
It just goes to show that just because someone is intelligent doesn’t mean all the positives come with it. Lesson learnt!
Oh Natalie, thank you… My most recent experience with overeducated unavailability is proof positive that a Ph.D. can at one moment sigh tearful sighs contemplating the beautiful nuances of a single line of a poem… and the next moment be a crass, coldhearted, moronic prick. It’s like an optical illusion, it makes you want to blink your eyes and look again. It’s not just that intellect and emotional intelligence don’t correlate; braininess is often a sign of emotional unavailability.
I just fall for the type, I am not myself a good specimen of this type. Not saying I don’t have my neuroses, just that I am the girl who used to want to be the professor’s wife, rather than be a professor herself.
I work at an academic library, in public services. I used to see it as a great way to meet men… now when I see the stacks and stacks of books they borrow, every volume looks like another brick in the wall surrounding their egos, impenetrably shielding them from real intimacy. Every page means a few more minutes while they can disregard another live human being. This may sound harsh, but I know: I used to be married to a guy buried behind several hundred books.
As for the engaging conversations, they are pickup and flirting techniques. So it’s no coincidence that as soon as you get past the point when it’s time to really start to get to know each other and build intimacy, that is exactly the point when the excitement in the intellectual discussions also begins to dwindle. It’s a turn on … until you’re so stonewalled and frustrated that it’s a turn off…. an empty front. Enough.
I realize there might be emotionally available and single scholars out there, but that must be one shallow pool. High achievers in general, how many of them could possibly take time for intimacy on the side? Of course, once I’ve built up the appropriate levels of self esteem Natalie espouses, it’ll seem obvious that the genuine caring available ones have been waiting for me all these years 🙂
cave
don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. i know a cambridge history lecturer who is a wonderful husband and father. i guess we need to assess men on their own merits, something I am working on.
as for EU counsellors, i think you can still be a bit screwed up and help other people. helping ourselves is so much harder.
“…now when I see the stacks and stacks of books they borrow, every volume looks like another brick in the wall surrounding their egos, impenetrably shielding them from real intimacy.” Hilarious Cavewoman!
At the end of the day, I’m sure there are many emotionally available professors but it’s seeing beyond the ‘professor’ bit to the qualities, characteristics and values. This would be the same for any profession really and the truth is that when we have a very specific profession in mind, it is an immediate gateway to making assumptions about what a person like that and the life we think we’d assume could do for us. We’re all individuals and while a profession can tell you some things about a person, it doesn’t even begin to show you the full them.
Wow, I have the exact same story, TeaTime! I know how much ethics is emphasized in clinical psych, which would suggest it’s not unusual that shrinks use professional skills for personal gains…. My ex husband had an affair (while married to me) with a Psy.D. who evidently threw in some free psychoanalysis… he said she was “so good at talking about feelings”. I see how powerful and seductive that can be… he was also convinced she would make a good stepmother because of her professional credentials, and her experience in family therapy! How ironic, how outrageous… what kind of con artists are these people?
(P.S. Once I divorced him, his story changed into “she’s too emotional”, and within months, they were broken up.)
cavewoman – I love that image of books as brick walls. In the middle of a peaceful patch with the AC – say we were sitting happily, doing whatever – he would say something like, ‘You do know that I would usually be reading about [x] theorist/watching [x] intelligent program?’ The recent EUM used his apparently inflexible work hours and need to earn more money (despite being cashed-up beyond belief). Same phenomenon.
To be perfectly honest though, I’ve done some things like this in the scramble to achieve.
“Not only did he turn out to be so emotionally broken, he also used what he knew to manipulate women (including myself).” No sh*t! Same here same here. The ExEUM/AC also was pyschologist and I also made the assumption that he would have a greater understanding of others and how damaging AC behavior can be after seeing so many in pain and treating them. Its like the old adage – a plumber is great at fixing other peoples plumbing but not their own. Assumptions – very dangerous ground. As a fellow member pointed out to me along time ago – just because they are trained in a field that would imply a higher knowledge – its in the application that makes the difference. Anyone who uses their “knowledge” with the intent to harm knowingly and willingly so as to get what they want without taking others into consideration is an absolute shithead. Whatever happened to “do no harm” or does that only apply to 9 -5.
Hi TeaTime, that sounds like a pretty harrowing experience. One of the things I’ve learned through reading about many reader experiences is not to put blind trust or faith in people, particularly based on professions or social standings. I’ve had an exceptional amount of mail from women involved with cops, politicians, lawyers, teachers and a number of similar stories to yours. This doesn’t mean there is anything wrong with these professions and that they’re all shady – there are people behind these professions. With regards to counsellors, it’s not a prerequisite for them to have their shit together and some in spite of any private issues they may have are exceptionally good at their jobs – you know the whole being able to dish the advice but not necessarily being able to apply. In your guy’s case, aside from him being unable to be objective, I think he’d found some other uses for his skills and I think no matter *what* job he has, that will be his disposition.
This one’s for me, for sure. I remember someone in high school saying to me, “For someone so smart …” with the implied end to that sentence being that I was pretty dumb. And no doubt they meant socially or emotionally.
The distinction between the kind of intelligence you describe as “intelligence” and the other kinds of “smarts” is one it has taken me decades to grasp, for the reasons you mention.
A good, snappy conversation has come to feel like the most validating interaction, but it is no substitute for the mutual respect and caring and emotional skill from which a different interaction, and a different kind of conversation, eminently more satisfying, can emerge. The kinds of conversation that happen in my 12-step group, for example, have begun to teach me what it looks like, sounds like, and feels like when another person is genuinely aiming for self-awareness and better relationships.
I hear myself talking sometimes and sound like a stuck-up so and so. Who knows how many ways I have been communicating, non-verbally, to other people that I don’t find them interesting, engaging, or worth getting to know. Ugh.
I’m so glad that “emotional intelligence” isn’t the predetermined thing they say that “IQ” type intelligence is. Otherwise I’d be effed!
One thing that I love, after the stings of having Miss-Intelligenter-Than-Thou held up to the mirror, is that I find I have much less impulse to pursue conversations designed to impress, which means I’ve been interacting differently with fellow grad students, and my supervisor, and other faculty. I just feel more relaxed.
I always have thought these people who have “done better” than me in their fields must be emotionally smarter to get to where they are. They may be or they may not. Now that I’ve had more experience, in different contexts, of interaction with other adults where the goal is intimacy and support, now I can wait for evidence, among the hordes of “superintelligent” people on campus, that they have those skills too before assuming that they do.
Thanks so much for this post, NML, and to the community for all the thinking and conversation that led up to it. It’s really quite a gift to have this kind of feedback and support in life.
Hi Magnolia, the funny thing is that you probably don’t sound as stuck up as you think you do. Intelligence can take you places but certainly in interpersonal relationships, on its own it has some severe limitations. I really value intelligence both in myself and others but I value intimacy, emotional honesty, personalities as a whole and other qualities and characteristics. Keep enjoying your new experiences – it’s like opening up a whole new dimension.
This is how far I have come: I used to be exactly this person -> “Well they’re intelligent/well educated/love the same interests hence ipso facto they will be able to love me, give me a relationship, and share the same values”.
In January I was made a pass at by an incredibly intelligent and skillful man and he wanted to launch into a physical relationship. When I said I would like to get to know him he said those words above to me. I thought he sounded irresponsible and reckless. Needless to say after a short time of ‘getting to know me’ (i.e. not having instant sex) he grew bored. And I felt fine about it because he deselected himself. Saved me the bother.
raven
Terrific point – he deselected himself. I used to panic about dating agin, thinking I would have to keep a running tally of red and amber flags, enforce my boundaries like a deranged guard dog, and be constantly hypervigilant for ACs/EUMs. I’d run through these uncomfortable scenarios where I’d be confronting men about what they’ve done wrong.
Now I think – I just need to have good self-esteem and a normal level of awarenss and it will be fine. 90%+ of these men WILL deselect themselves when they know they’re not dealing with a fallback girl. I don’t have to do anything difficult, just .. be who I am.
thanks Grace – you just clarified that for me in return!!
I have to add that I share an office with one of the most intelligent men on the planet (we are both academics) and he is kind, emotionally available, great husband and father and a deeply compassionate person so as Nat says in the post – it isn’t about being intelligent per se it’s about privileging that over the important stuff that’s lacking.
I love that Raven – “he deselected himself” – that is *exactly* it.
“It’s also important to recognise that some very intelligent people will also very intelligently screw you over.” LOL God I love your writing!
Amen! Sometimes it just makes them better at their game. Best way to win is not to play.
I love that comment too…. These supposedly high IQ guys can also royally screw you over and be very clever with the words and mind gimes, and know exactly what they are doing.
There has been a trend for me to go for physically attractive, intelligent men, and I have done the whole, ‘well we are having an intellectual conversation’ and translated that into connecting on a deeper level, and tried to make that over and above the more important red flags of lack of respect/ inconsistency and ambiguous behaviour….. I am now currently dating a handsome, intelligent guy, he is a doctor like myself, yet he does not seem to have depth of conversation to much else other than when talking about his job, which I must say I find dull. Yet he is warm and caring, it is very hard to strike a balance. No real ideas where to go with this one….
Anyway, I identified a lot of what was raised in this post, thanks for the brilliant writing again, NML!
Thanks Leisha 😉
Natalie, You are most welcome! IMO you shoot straight with kindness and that is invaluable to me. I love your humour in all the assorted ways you express it. YOU are priceless and a true gift. Thank YOU!
Natalie,
Regarding “The Trouble With Being Blinded by Intelligence in Dating and Relationships” –
I have recently been struggling to get clarity on this VERY relationship!!! (hence NCR) My ex-boyfriend was incredibly intelligent AND funny – a killer combo. But yes, emotionally stunted…
Your blogs are absolutley dead on and sorely needed…at least for this woman…
As a culture of modern women, we are greatly suffering from lack of self-esteem…Throwing Pearls before swine…why, oh why? Well, you have articulated Why quite clearly…maybe we know it, maybe we don’t but what has been lacking in my opinion is a Voice in the Wilderness that cuts through the babble. Your voice did that for me. I watched one or two of your video clips and my soul thought, THANK GOD someone (a woman!) hears me, sees me.
There is a saying, “May you be blessed with more than one mother in your lifetime…” As women I think we take turns throughout our life helping each other in this way. The problem for unmothered (unparented) little girls and boys is that there is no Direction…we are just banging around through life trying to figure it out. Whoops…there goes another artery!!
I am very grateful to you, your work and the many voices here. I agree it is more than time for a cultural SHIFT, and today that begins with me.
And by the way, the word assclown cracks me up…and that’s a good thing!
Hi Sydney, I loved the line “Throwing Pearls before swine” It is absolutely imperative that particularly as women we stop selling ourselves short. The more women that realise this and apply it to their self-esteem and subsequent interactions is the greater the shift in supply, demand, and consequences for those that don’t feel that they have to change because they think that where one woman won’t, plenty more will. Trust me – if there will societal consequences and it wasn’t so easy to get away with coasting and in some cases being downright shady, you’d see a lot of things changing. Intelligent and funny is great but it’ll leave you hungry without the emotional sustenance, especially if they can talk or joke their way out of intimacy.
This one is for me for sure too. I was one of the many who chimed in when Cavewoman hit on the EUAcademic. I cannot believe how obvious it is now that intelligence doesn’t automatically equal emotionality or relationship smarts. I’ve been blinded by the intelligence thing all my life. You are so right about academia being about methods, techniques, theories, and textbooks and relationships being based on things very different.
During one of our early “business happy hours” with the ex-MM, we were discussing our favorite novels. My fate was sealed when he said his favorite novel was War & Peace. I guess I learned the hard way that a relationship can’t be based War & Peace! And I learned that you can’t even have a relationship with a MM.
Many, many lessons learned. Thanks again Natalie and BR readers.
I forgot to mention: Ex MM was a lit major. Guess what my father did before he retired?
Runner! Literature is KILLER! Between my last two exes, their total number of degrees are: two in philosophy, two in religion, one in mediaeval history, and one in comparative literature. All degrees conferred by different institutions. This is how hell bent I was on the sensitive thinker angle: after I divorced the Ph.D. candidate with a B.A. in philosophy and M.A. in religion, I fell for the Ph.D. with a B.A. in philosophy and M.A. in religion. The similarities just drew me in further… I just *knew* this was one going to be different. It’s hysterically funny, in hindsight!
My version of your War & Peace effect, i.e. the hook, was how the latter EUA cherished the memory of his visit to the St. Francis monastery in Assisi. I had been to Assisi with the former, husband EUA. It is a gorgeous place and we had a wonderful time: we kept the monastic silence the whole time we were there. He had a respectable excuse not to have to talk to me, which put me at ease! 🙂 Now, I still agree no saint is greater and more admirable than St. Francis, but monks are just not the best role models as far as relationships go. Oops.
Lit major over here!! Some of us have perspective, honest!
Oh Magnolia, we aren’t generalizing to ALL lit majors! I can tell from your posts, you have great perspective and I learn a lot from you.
Thanks for the heads-up Cavewoman. I’ll steer clear of EU’s who admire monks. LOL
I think I’ll be staying away from all EU’s no matter what package they come in.
That’s hilarious Runnergirl – the whole War & Peace connection is EXACTLY how we can take one piece of information and correlate it to the rest of them and assume we’re kindred spirits.
I really love this post, because I’ve been on the other side of this. I’ve had numerous guys decide, based on the way I look, sense of humour, personality, etc. that I was not intelligent enough for them and therefor relegated to the “Not Girlfriend Material, But I’d Hit That” bin within five minutes of meeting me. I asked my (thankfully, always very honest) friends if I was coming off as stupid and they assured me that I was not – and, trust me, they’d tell me if I was. It’s been a huge stress in my dating life for some time, so I really enjoyed seeing the other side of the issue. As always, another awesome one!
Unfortunately Natasha, there are some people who are very superficial and will judge very quickly – you can’t do anything about them. To be fair, when we are single, we all do it to a certain extent. It’s not always a conscious level but particularly if we are confronted with lots of options (dating site) or are out and about keeping our options open and looking around, we are making unconscious snap judgements.
Natalie thank you for breaking this one down for me 🙂 I was paranoid that I was somehow unconciously putting out that I’m an idiot, so that’s a big load off. Being four months into starting over in my dating life (for real, not like in years past when I said I was starting over….but, it was same stuff, different dude or same stuff, same dude), there is a lot I don’t know!
This is one of the most pertinent topics for me. I feel like a massive tool – one of those who might claim mega-smart status – but I am pretty bright, academically-speaking, have all the accolades etc, and I am also highly tuned into human behaviour (albeit in a sort of anthropological way!). On top of this, intelligence (in the narrow, contestable IQ sense) was the NUMBER ONE value in my household growing up, explicitly and implicitly. (Naturally, this has caused a lot of pain for my more artistic or techy siblings, and made it harder for me to make decisions in my life which don’t follow the obvious intellectual path.)
One of my male friends pointed out, quite randomly, that what I do is describe a wall in great detail, all of its nuances and textures, rather than just climb over it. This is classic me when it comes to relationships too! It takes me a good while to be that more relaxed, graceful, ‘in it’ person, often at the point where the guy has already put me in the ‘can’t get away with anything with this girl’ box. Now, the latter is a separate problem – their problem (these guys are often also highly intelligent, control-freaky types who use words to wangle) – but still, my intellectual style contributes to the dynamic, for sure. I don’t project ‘you can be yourself around me’ very well, even when I want to.
The two healthy relationships I have had have both been with super smart guys, but, they were also emotionally honest, reliable guys who wanted the relationship to grow. They loved me. Since and including the AC (who was off-the-charts-smart, something of which he had to remind me on a regular basis – classy!), the guys have lacked these other skills and interests (the last EUM just did not want to be better at relationships. He said it made him feel inadequate and angry at me).
Thankfully, I have now very much accepted that conventional intelligence without relationship grace leads to the sort of emotionally divorced, differentiated life that I don’t want. But what I need to do now is also try to practise and cultivate this in myself so that I can come across, and in fact be, that more full person that I am looking for.
Thanks for the post, Natalie. Spot on, and super…
Hi Elle, another hugely insightful comment that contributes greatly to the subject. I think you have to embrace your intelligence rather than see it as a hindrance but at the same time recognise that there is more to you. I’ve used my own experiences and observations to write for a living but it has very little impact on my relationship. Relax and enjoy you more and you’re absolutely right that being what you expect from others is key plus when you’re secure in who you are in a relaxed manner, you’ll choose similar people because someone who isn’t will make you feel uncomfortable.
This is a great topic for me! I fell for the “smart ones” putting them on a pedestal. They must have it all together, they look so confident. Only to realize that is the only area of life that they had it together in was the
” smart factor” . I have several degrees, so it wasn’t that I was a dummy,
but it fed into my unavailability, though I didn’t realize it at the time. I also gave them attributes that they didn’t possess. I now don’t even ask a guy what he does for a living, or dismiss them, as a potential, if they don’t have the same amount of degrees, I have. I’m not sure when this became important to me, but I see it lead me down the wrong street, and set me up for some unhappy relationships.
Thanks again.
Mrldeyez – this is it down to a tee and highlights that if we can be intelligent and make mistakes with our relationship choices, so can they. And of course you’re not a dummy – you’re just learning a new subject.
The worst pseudo relationship I had was with a MM, doctor, who flies around the world saving people in disaster stricken zones, yet he always wanted our time together to be “light”, never wanted to discuss anything too deep. I realize he didn’t want me to have any “human” qualities, then he would have to treat me like a person with a heart and a soul instead of an empty shell. He wanted me to be his trophy to parade around and stroke his ego. Funny how someone could have such a good bedside manner yet could lack compassion for someone he says he cares about. Now that I look back, he was charming, polite, and intelligent, but I had more personality by far. Talk about well educated, relationship dumb, and somewhat socially inept to boot!
Nevertoolate!:
I suppose he saw you as ‘the mistress’ – and ‘the mistress’ is there for a man’s relaxation time and pampering, so I’d say your assessment of the situation was 100% correct.
In all fairness, he probably DOES have a personality, but perhaps he keeps that for his wife? Perhaps he didn’t have enough personality for a wife and a full-time career AND a mistress?
Anyway, it’s another excellent warning about MMs.
@ PJM
Honestly, I don’t think he had a nice, sweet side,but he would always ask me if I found him fun to be around (insecure, in need of an ego stroke?) I know I am a fun person and make the best of everything no matter how down I may be. I really don’t think he was Mr. Personality with anybody, he is who he is. It is kind of a shame he never wanted to get into anything too deep with me though, I may not have his credentials, but I am definitely intelligent and he missed out on knowing this facet of me which he could have appreciated. His loss!
@ PJM
I meant to say he had a nice sweet side, but wasn’t Mr. Personality.
Nevertoolate – Sounds like he had run out of anything to give. Sometimes people harden up when they’re faced with having to deal with harrowing circumstances and they forget how to switch back on for a romantic relationship. It’s that fear of intimacy. Maybe he feels like if he opens up in romantic relationships, it’ll open the floodgates on being affected by what he deals with. He’s unavailable.
And let’s not forget, married.
Never
Exactly, there are plenty of MM not giving their mistresses what they want. You can’t please two women. In fact, I’d think even LESS of him if he could – that really would take some front!
Yes Nat I agree, the more intelligent they are the smarter they are at screwing you over. The EUM that I was seeing last year is incredibly smart and has a very good business but what a emotionally retarded arsehole he turned out to be. He’s now back with the fallback girl who he left his wife for (years ago)….I did smile when I found out because they are obviously a match made in heaven LOL 🙂
Must have done a double degree in civil engineering/assclown
Too funny Kirsten. It also highlights how you’re rarely the *only* Fallback Girl in their life.
Haha I used to be super attracted to super intelligence. But then I realized that I was using the intellectual connection to substitute for an emotional one. And I was ending up “involved” with men who were equally emotionally unavailable as me. Not that I realized I was EU until later on.
What I also came to realize is that I am a physical person and don’t want all my time being spend on intellectual pursuits.
Amen Laura. There’s more to life and unless what’s going on in the head yields wonderful action, stimulating conversation will only take you so far.
I was both laughing out loud at this post and cringing inwardly. This is me, and every one of my assclowns. I am a doctor and a professor and I am still the stupidest person alive when it comes to relationships. I am very good at my job and very poor at my life. Being “smart” has been a crutch my entire life, something to hide behind and distract myself with. I have also placed too high a value on intelligence in others. Looking back, the best, longest, most fulfilling relationship I had (a 13 year marriage) was with someone who, not to be unkind, wasn’t the sharpest knife in the drawer in terms of books smarts but he was loving and open and kind and wanted to be in the relationship. I would now trade everyone one of my genius assclowns since for that simple, loving guy.
Although this post is about intelligence, it could just as easily have been about putting too much importance on looks, money, weight, job or the mirade of other things we use to vet the people we end up with. I (in my obnoxious intelligent way) use to think I was better than others because I didn’t care about looks, didn’t have a “type” and never asked how much money he made. I also never asked if he wanted a relationship, or the same things I did, or if he was a nice and honest person. I mistook my own academic intelligence for having my priorities in order or even knowing myself and what I wanted and needed.
That is what is equally interesting to me in this. For all my book learnin’, I didn’t know myself at all. The one thing I lived with day in and day out – myself- was a complete and utter mystery to me, as I have discovered. I focused a stupid, numbingly mind bending amount of time and energy trying to understand my elusive, abusive maddening assclowns, but never once thought to look at myself. How smart is that?
Debra, I agree with you completely. I am intelligent and have a degree, have done well professionally and managing my life; money, bills, jobs, etc but when it came to relationships, I have faltered and been incredibly naive. On the flip side, I was married for 12 years to an extremely intelligent man, who was a doctor, traveled the world, and cultured. He was also the nicest man I ever knew, treated me like gold and I trusted him with my life. I left him ( I’m the fool). I have been with intelligent men since who treated me like dog crap. I have been with “slow” men who treated me bad. Shared values is where its at, no matter the intelligence, job , race, or status. For me its deciphering the values they display or let you see. They, and we, usually are on good behavior in the beginning and don’t let the ugly things out or we drip feed the ugly like others drip feed the truth. Its about trusting your gut and growing self esteem if you tended to be a doormat, which I have been.
Another great comment Debra. You’re absolutely right that this is beyond intelligence and I loved that you said “I also never asked if he wanted a relationship, or the same things I did, or if he was a nice and honest person.” We just can’t make these assumptions about people – or we can, but we have to roll back and reassess when reality doesn’t stand up.
Fantastic post, story of my life. I’ve even “fooled” counsellors into thinking I’m essentially okay and the crappy relationships are just a blip. I’m intelligent, articulate and even self-aware but had a big relationship blindspot. I didn’t set out to fool them, that would be a stupid waste of time and money but how could I tell them what I didn’t know myself? My most recent counsellor would often say to me “I have to be careful with you, it’s so easy to believe that you’re a confident, assertive, happy person.”
@ debra – don’t beat yourself up about it. If youv’e gone through your whole life believing certain things, and if it’s worked for you (good at school, good job, not-too-bad relationships, friendships) why on earth would you question it? And the longer you do it, the more entrenched it becomes. It’s all you know. It would be like trying to explain blue to a colourblind person. They don’t get it and they don’t need it.
At least the ACs serve a purpose. They’re a wake-up call to take stock of your life and turn it round. If the latest speciment hadn’t come along I might still be suffering periods of depression, loneliness, feeling “wrong” and guilty. As it is, a year down the line I could (almost) thank him for driving me to seek professional help. And none of it was about him, he was just a signpost in the end.
That’s funny, Grace. The one therapist I saw post-AC for a handful of sessions also said that I came across as confident, capable and cheerful (and that he had to use different skills in the therapy with me). I am these things, but not thoroughly. Anyway, he suggested that one of the problems I might have in relationships (of all sorts) is that I might be suffering or struggling or needing a bit of help, but it would not come across like that to the other person.
As for
Hm. I’ve been told the same.
Just to turn this around a bit: I have an aquaintence who is a very well known OCD/anxiety specialist . Brilliant and nice guy, yet deeply involved with a virulent EUW whom he feels he needs to stay with and help. My guess is he’s EUM himself. So, to Natalie’s point about intelligence not necessarily equaling good relationship skills, his intelligence hasn’t helped him navigate away from an EU situation
Natalie,
Reading this article, the word that comes to mind is fealty. Fealty, swearing devotion and service to one who is your social and governmental superior, doesn’t make for a take-home-to-mother relationship.
And choosing someone for lacking intelligence is just a variation on choosing a cripple because they will be grateful, and not because they would be a responsible and giving partner of good character and healthy emotional bonds, willing and able to join with you to build a passionate and satisfying shared life. Choosing the cripple puts barriers between you and “the poor thing”, just as choosing someone “better” does.
Blessed be!
@teatime. I had this exact same experience! A man who was a helper and viewed as so wonderful by so many. And yet he actually has no sense of self and needs the attention of women to feel whole. When things got a little hard and my attention was focused on raising our 1 year old daughter he cheated and had been doing it for a year before i found out. I fell for his charm and “save the world” persona.
Intelligence is much harder to judge than, say, physical attractiveness. Many people just assume money = intelligence. Since we don’t start out talking about salaries we make another assumption that job = money = intelligence.
As a man I have never had a problem dating women who made less than me; I don’t assume they are less intelligent. I don’t even really care what a woman does for work.
I have had much less success dating women who have better jobs than I do. Though they never say it I believe they see me as making less, therefore less intelligent. As the author says, intelligence doesn’t determine someones’ abililty in a relationship, so my relationship potential never comes into play. Further, income doesn’t perfectly correlate with IQ. My point is that some women pass on men based on a (faulty) assumption.
I completely agree j d! I’ve had men do this over the years too – i.e., criticising my career, making comments to the effect of me not being “accomplished” or “intelligent” enough for them (I’m an interior decorator and started out as a secretary). My feeling is, if someone judges a potential dating interest based on that alone, they might as well be looking for a business partner instead of a life parter and they are really and truly missing out on some great people.
Of course there is nothing wrong with wanting intelligence in a partner. I prefer to date someone I can have a conversation with too! I’m just saying that we should not assume someone is not intelligent enough based on their job, or income. People attach different priorities to work and money, and find reward in different places.
When two people are in a relationship, one of them will be taller, better looking, smarter, wealthier,older, younger,better educated, more social, etc. If you want your partner to exceed you in every category, then you are asking them to accept someone who is less than them in…every category! Something you aren’t willing to do. See the contradiction?
jd : Excellent points and explanation…and I totally agree.
Well spotted J D!
On a semi-related note Natalie, I would love to see more posts on the looks vs. sex appeal issue. I read your series from earlier and it was excellent! My question is, what do you do when you are making a conscious effort not to trade on these things, but that seems to be the only thing that the men you meet seem to notice, even after going out with you a couple of times? I’m at my wits end here haha! I can’t believe that every man I’m meeting is shallow, so I’m thinking I must be doing something wrong. I make an effort to be up on current events, have intelligent questions to ask/things to discuss, but the only thing they ever compliment me on/mention to mutual friends, is “Oh, she’s so hot!” I’m by NO means a supermodel, btw. I would just like to find someone to have a relationship that will say, “I’m crazy about Natasha because she’s kind, funny, intelligent and I just enjoy being around her.” I apologize for the semi-off-topic-ness of this, but heeeeeeeeeeellllllp!
Couldn’t agree more! I never thought of it like that – excellent food for thought 🙂
Bulls-eye, guilty as charged. I should have the heading of this essay branded on my brow. I’m a woman who’s former Mensa, a film director, and attending a top US school, and I notice I fall for “intelligent” men all the time: it’s this weird prerequisite I feel like I just “have to” have, and every single on of these brainy creeps has turned into an Assclown. There’s even one I’m crushing on now who’s a talky, clever movie director as well, but this time, wisely, I’ve stayed well back from him for over a year. He has no idea I ever liked him.
Too, I’m one of those “Whaaat: are you saying I should settle for some idiot, someone who doesn’t read XYZ Stuffy Magazine, who can’t do a crossword puzzle beside me in bed Sunday morning, who doesn’t listen to NPR, who doesn’t know who Ligati, Penderecki and Samuel Barber are, who’s ugly/fat/not Italian/not over age 50 blah blah blah” women who gets her panties in a knot the minute someone like you sees through it and calls me on it. But horror of settling feels like an assault on your future babies’ genetic swatch. I’m not joking when I say your suggestion I stop making “intelligence” an absolute feels like it threatens my eggs. That IS what it feels like; yet you are correct.
How do we escape this addiction? For me, it’s been refusing to date men now for 17 years. You read that right: 17 years of self-enforced celibacy, of therapy, and of avoidance.
Nothing sends chills of horror dancing across my skin like some younger 20-something fool who has never heard classical music and can’t direct a commercial making a sexual approach at me by the subway (I’m in New York). What on earth would we talk about? “Lady Gaga”? “His iPod”?
I have a terrible addiction to intelligent men who direct feature films and are older than I am because I am an intelligent woman who directs feature films. These kinds of men turn right around, walk past me, and pick girls with the brains of a beach ball. When I’m lucky. When I was not lucky, a decade plus ago, they got into bad relationships with me and destroyed my heart. I’ve been single for nearly two decades. If something doesn’t change, I’ll be single until the end.
All I want is to be half of a power couple. What is so wrong with that? Is it so impossible? It sure seems to be. What to do?
HF, this comment is a fantastic contribution to a tenuous yet fascinating subject. I need to digest but what I will say is this: you sure have slimmed down your odds with these specifics. There is only a small pool of directors which when you throw in power and success gets down to an even smaller pool.
HF
I saw Debra Meadon (a British venture capitalist) on tv the other day. She relies very much on her husband to support her, I guess like a traditional wife would a husband. I can’t remember what he does, but it’s nothing like as high-powered as her. He may be a house husband. She sees his role in their marriage as being just as important as hers.
I know a female lawyer, very successful, whose husband is a teacher and does a lot of the childcare.
If both parties are working long, stressful, demanding hours away from home and have “alpha” personalities I think it’s very difficult to have a relationship and almost impossible to bring up children. One of them has to be more “stay at home”. Traditionally it’s the woman but more and more often I see it’s the man. Would that not work for you? Looking for someone who is a male version of you could lead to an imbalance. How about someone who isn’t like you but complements you?
And, as nat says, the number of successful feature film directors who are single must be very very small!
There are plenty of decent intelligent people about. Surely in New York it can’t be that rare . I think the problem isn’t that we are attracted to intelligent people – I think we are NOT attracted to decent people. It just doesn’t compute that every single intelligent man we meet is an AC. Maybe we need to look at this from a different angle. Not so much “why do i value intelligence so much?” but “why do I like ACs so much”?
By the way, I don’t value intelligence that much in a man. I’ve not dated any dimwits but being intelligent is not exactly rare. I trip over intelligent people (sometimes literally) all the time. I work in the City.
I did value looks a lot though, which is odd because I’m really not that shallow. I’ve thought about this, and it’s because I was so plain and geeky at school I get a little rush of excitement when a good looking man is interested in me. Validation, again, that old chestnut.
I can quite see myself being single for the rest of my life. Now I no longer need validation from men, I don’t see the point of a relationship – it’s pretty much the only reason I got into them. I don’t hanker after companionship, not bothered about sex anymore, never wanted children. I’m financially secure. Interesting, I wonder how this is all going to pan out!
I’ve always suspected that, despite the knots we tie ourselves into, women do quite well without men. Not so much the other way round.
I have a similar hang-up, HF. That phrase ‘genetic swatch’ is perfect. In fact, as much as I feel reluctant to point the finger (at my age!), my mother has always said to me (she said it only the other week) that I need to marry a very intelligent man. That has been her one piece of advice. She once even said it didn’t matter if he was a bit of a meanie, which was concerning. It’s my father who is now back-pedalling, stressing that kindness should be my main concern.
I have had two relationships with men who were intelligent, curious, and good. So I think Grace is onto something when she suggests that it’s decency that is undervalued in the process of seeking out a status match. I know that my attraction to the AC (who, incidentally, often used to remind me of how he was a PBR-listener!) was beset by sense of competitiveness, at the expense of something softer and more enduring. In hindsight, I can see that, initially, my intellectual status as a PhD etc. was attractive to him too. But then he began to find it off-putting, as if he would not get enough attention for being the ‘special’ one. I was much more willing to share the stage, but he couldn’t or wouldn’t. He said as much when he binned me. So, yeah, I think it’s about relationship grace first and then a form of intelligence that you feel comfortable with and, ideally, stimulated by. (As women become better educated, it is tricky though. One recent EUM said that he didn’t feel ‘special’ enough around me. It is interesting that I am less keen to find, as a man might, someone ‘inferior’ to make me feel special. Women still tend to want to ‘marry up’ even if it means not being loved in a healthy way.)
The stuff about the kids’ genes is arguable. I am no nature/nuture expert – but I know that so much of a child’s success in school is determined by the variable: mother’s literacy and interest. Plus, surely you’d want your child to feel loved, emotionally-secure, and hopefully witnessing a happy relationship? I know many ‘genetically’ highly intelligent people who have been mentally crippled by a toxic childhood.
Anyway, I am still working this out too (hence the assortment of ideas here!). I want to be with a man who is interesting and interested in life. But I have a feeling that there is something wrong with the idea and reality of a ‘power couple’. It suggests that there is a third party – an audience – judging and approving you as people, when most of a relationship is about the daily ho-hum between you two, and small moments of tenderness and connection.
That is a beautiful last line or two Elle… I agree completely.
‘About the daily ho-hum between the two of you, and small moments of tenderness and connection. In one.
I agree, you’re right, there is an audience. I never… have ever… noticed that before.
I’m not healed yet, but I think you might have put a light on my problem!
You crack me up…then wise me up..great combination Grace!
I too wonder how this is all going to pan out. If nothing else its mine and it’s interesting.
Grace,
>>She relies very much on her husband to support her, I guess like a traditional wife would a husband. I can’t remember what he does, but it’s nothing like as high-powered as her. He may be a house husband. She sees his role in their marriage as being just as important as hers.
You’ve uncovered another bit of the puzzle. This, what Debra has, is actually what I secretly want and wish for. It’s just I am scared a man would never do that for me. That they would see it as submitting. Many men I’ve met have reacted strongly negatively to the idea of being my support. I gave up on it too, seeing my dad when I was little. He treated my mother like… I can’t even say it politely here. I grew up assured men would do anything at all costs to stay in charge even if it destroys the relationship. So I gravitated to the idea of a power couple. Lately I’ve been skeptical even that will work. It seems the more successful you are as a woman the higher the possibility you’ll be unsupported and alone.
PS: gentle, sweet kind men are no more reliable in a relationship as consistent supporters emotionally than the Assclowns. I’ve tested them. Both trains lead to the same rotten destination. Why not take the one that’s attractive and has shock absorbers? 😀
“All I want is to be half of a power couple.” I can relate to feeling this way.
If you mean you want to be in a partnership where two “successful” influential people are co-piloting and making their work interconnect, rather than two disconnected achievers who put on the same social front because they’re both using achievement to substitute for self esteem, and where their careers don’t compete with another to the point of constant power struggle, that’s actually a much taller order than we’d like to think.
I can also relate to choosing (older) men who have made the same career choice. I think I’ve been searching for outer validation, getting into some kind of professional winner’s circle. Getting close to one of these men represents that. For me, I’m a nationally recognized writer, and I have watched many men who are my professional peers choose a sweet young fan over a female professional peer. I didn’t get into this game to win cute young male fans, so I’ve spent a lot of the past couple years realizing that I’ve made my way in a world where the structures and models of success reflect men’s values. And asking myself what I prove to myself through achieving.
Once you figure out what you really care about (say, directing films that show a certain truth about the world, vs. getting a bigger deal), the markers of other people’s “success” that attract you will change. If I’m really *really* working and writing for me, because it’s what I choose to do with my life, the kind of person who creates “power” with me won’t have to be a father (or brother) figure whose approval validates my choice of work and my level of achievement.
Also, just a respectful query – your explanation that you are worried about your babies’ genetics doesn’t compute with me – you would exclude, say, doctors, multinational execs, Olympic athletes, directors of international relief orgs, Nobel laureates – from your list of potential DNA donors – that’s why you haven’t dated, because of a shortage of directors? And if it’s really about babies, why 17 years of celibacy, rather than 17 years of birth control and pleasure with men you don’t plan to settle down with?
Yikes, Magnolia, how much I related to this: If I’m really *really* working and writing for me, because it’s what I choose to do with my life, the kind of person who creates “power” with me won’t have to be a father (or brother) figure whose approval validates my choice of work and my level of achievement.
I often feel I want a man to continue for me what I could do, or do the same as me so that I (must) press on, so that it means something if I do. This is changing, as I grow up, but still…
Oh, it used to be Nobel laureates, PhDs and all that (nix on the athletes… was never attracted to them). I just noticed they could be meaner than the directors. Also, I was directing too, so that’s where I went. Don’t get me started on how many male actors I’ve had to send packing! Male actors… To paraphrase Alec Guinness in Star Wars, “A more wretched hive of scum and Assclownery…”
Your second question I can’t answer as glibly. I don’t know why I stayed so far away for so long. Mostly my heart was broken by Nineties Director Assclown. I found nights alone pleasuring myself was far more profitable. Late last year something in me went, “Hold it. This isn’t healthy. You need to be with a real human being now.”
>>For me, I’m a nationally recognized writer, and I have watched many men who are my professional peers choose a sweet young fan over a female professional peer. I didn’t get into this game to win cute young male fans, so I’ve spent a lot of the past couple years realizing that I’ve made my way in a world where the structures and models of success reflect men’s values. And asking myself what I prove to myself through achieving.
Bingo. This website and group are phenomenal. It’s like e.e. cummings wrote: the eyes of my eyes are [being] opened.
HF? To be celibate for seventeen years, perhaps with the continual secret,undisclosed ‘ crushings’ you describe and to have also ‘refused’ to date for this lengthy period of time…are you about to explode?
I too, need to read your comment again and possibly again because I ‘m not into the’ threatening my eggs’ comment.Eugenics not my bag…
If all you say is true and these actually are your opinions,then you are, like many of us(in various stages of recovery and hope for recovery) Emotionally Unavailable…welcome to this brilliant site!
Here is a brainteaser…what if the guy in the subway(who had never directed a commercial??)had a cute little i pod filled to the brim with Rimsky Korsakov or Mahler or Grieg? Would you speak to him then…? If you did…and he turned out to be funny,kind,caring,dare I say intelligent…what then?
The ‘power couple ‘comment leaves me mystified in the context of this article. Why not be powerful yourself and/or proud of the emotional strength of a relationship with a partner, a potential relationship that may give you aspiration for the future, fulfilling partnership,shared values, support and deep love.
You seem to narrow the field for this bizarrely and in doing so you narrow your chances for happiness. I say this humbly, as someone who has been on the site for a wee while now and whose ego at times needed clipping.
“17 years”… oh yes. It’s ridiculous and true. I also agree with you I have been Emotionally Unavailable. I would trip over myself to chase after some man who was married, lived 2,000 miles away, was fiercely dedicated to his career and had a trail of ex-wives behind him he’d sacrificed to its tribal gods, you name it… but run for the hills if “a sweet young guy” who showed interest and availability so much as looked across a room in my direction with a smile. I’m sad to think how many male hearts I broke. I’ve gotten it all karmically back in spades full of black ashes… believe me…
>>what if the guy in the subway(who had never directed a commercial[…]
Would I speak to him then? Only if he wasn’t high-pressure, doing the Scary Predator Stare men do at me and you too when they’re sexually interested in you, or behaving as a stalker… but sadly the guys who are available often come on WAYYYY too strong, in ways that if a woman approached a man those ways, he’d run… (But yet they feel it’s fine to call and text us 40 times a day?) I’ve had men literally chase me off the subway. I take back streets to avoid all the stares, approaches and cat calls.
It feels only safe to point my considerable deep love and desire at a man if he’s a thousand miles away, married and in love with his career. (I even used to get crushes on dead men. Dead men! Leonard Bernstein was a favorite. “They don’t make em like that anymore,” I’d sigh. How sick is that?) Because if I point them at a man who is available, he’ll suffocate me to death. Men don’t seem to understand Approach At Normal Speed. At least with me. They come on full-throttle and scare me away.
>>If you did…and he turned out to be funny,kind,caring[…]
And not stalky… I’d take it slow… and then he’d rev it up to full-speed and smother me and chase me away. It never fails 🙁
You are right on the money though. I’m listening, even about losing my beloved idea of the power couple!
I also have a dead celebrity crush on Richard Farnsworth but it doesn’t get in the way of me wanting to have sex with live men. Your comments interest me but if you are being truly authentic then I ‘m hurt for you HF. You say if you point(your interest) at available men then they will ‘suffocate you’. Hopefully by coming on site you’ve made a decision to explore that feeling.
I commented more fully to your later blog, just for information…
Hm… Well, I guess there’s nothing wrong with that, except it’s not working. What does being in a power couple mean to you? Why do you want to be in a power couple?
I want to be totally honest with you: your preferences for what you (think you) want in a guy seem really… snooty. I don’t mean to insult you all all, believe me, and I think you recognize this on some level (reference to “XYZ Stuffy Magazine”). It sounds like you want to be better than other people, and that the partner that you have will elevate you even further above other people. Maybe that’s what being in a power couple means to you?
We all want to believe that we can get what we (think we) want in a partner, and when someone like Nat sees through it, we get incredibly defensive and threatened. Take that facade away, and… there’s nothing, or what feels like nothing. But what this really signifies is that we have a lot of work to do on ourselves. Get to know ourselves, and not in terms of likes and dislikes, but knowing our fears and traumas, anger, grief, rage… values, core beliefs… Yeah, that’s easy! (sarcasm!)
So that’s what you do. Do the hard work of really confronting yourself and challenging what you believe. Learn what healthy relationships are about, read books, do therapy/find another or a better therapist… It’s a hard journey. But it’s better than 17 years of celibacy and avoidance, right?
This.
Yes.
That’s all I can say. Yes yes yes.
HF, I finally came back to your comment. It’s always good to remember what Relationship Insanity is – carrying the same beliefs, baggage and behaviours, choosing same type different package and then expecting different results.
I’m also a firm believer that if you have a rigid type that is yet to yield you a successful relationship, you could stand to do a bit of shuffling around and assessing.
You’re not impossible to love. I don’t doubt your intelligence or your successes for one minute, but surely it’s not so stratospheric that you need to knock yourself out of the running by basically believing that no man can match you?
Your insanity was rigidly choosing the same guy and not adjusting your focus to lookout for mate like qualities. You’ve then obstructed any further success or trying out by shutting up shop.
You are intelligent and successful in your own right. Yes, your own right. It’s not like you will be any more or less intelligent or successful because you’re with Super Director. You don’t need an intellectual beard to bolster you. It’s also safe to say that you could stand to broaden your horizons – there’s more to you than your intelligence and success, or classical music, the crosswords etc. Start looking at yourself more wholly – in turn you’ll do the same thing with men because quite frankly, none of the things you’re after will help create a mutually fulfilling healthy relationship. If you were looking for a business partner on the other hand, you’d be all set.
100% brilliant. Thanks for the wake-up call, NML and Lily, and all you other fab girls here. I am awake in bed with my eyes open and listening.
I understand about the power couple being ridiculous and a pathology. It’s just an urge I’ve felt since I was a little girl (“You are supposed to be part of a Power Couple”, it goes). I would sit up in third grade reading stories of John Lennon and Yoko Ono, Mick and Bianca Jagger, and so forth, and graduated as a grownup to Gale Anne Hurd and Brian DePalma, and Kathryn Bigelow and James Cameron… note all the above divorced, however.
I know it’s a silly girlhood fantasy, but dang it, them silly girlhood fantasies are hard to disengage from and abandon forever… even when they aren’t working. A young, stubborn part of you, the part that believes in fairy tales – I’m certain it’s the same part – insists “Go on to the next man. He’ll be the prince who makes it work and makes it all better.” He never is. He’s only ever another Assclown.
But that repeating the same tactic choosing the same Assclown over and over again is what NML is rightly calling Relationship Insanity. I see it now. I recognize it. The rough part will be making the decision to get it out of my life and establish new, healthier patterns. Right now that tastes like spinach, and it’s going to take a lot of practice to make that stubborn, dream-enamored little girl choose the sweet guy with the iPod full of classics over the glittery older male director who yes, is a beard I don’t need… but somehow, to feel accepted by the media and by other women, I’ve made myself think I do need.
Time for a shave, I’d say!
For what it’s worth – to me, Julie Taymor, Nora Ephron, Sophia Coppola, Deepa Mehta, Jane Campion and Marlene Gorris (among many others) have all earned a spot in my celebrity awareness for their films, not – or even despite – their connections. I have no idea who they’re married to, if they have boyfriends, and frankly don’t care.
Actually, if they were public about their ‘great personal relationship’ or ‘power couple’ status, I’d be suspicious. An audience (which does come somewhat built in if you have a public profile) is a difficult thing for a personal relationship to weather and I’m always suspicious (having been through a couple pretty visible relationships) of those people who seem eager to have everyone see how “happy” they are.
The business of home- and family-making and love-making is a different line of business than money-making, eh? I’d add that I wonder if the guys you (we) chase in fact WOULD make good business partners, because those relationships don’t exactly do well without trust or honesty or give/take.
I say this as much to remind myself as anything!!
HF:
You know how desperately sad a child gets when she can’t get something she really really wants. A good parent knows not to raise false hopes, or to otherwise shield the child from life’s natural disappointments. Yet, a caring parent would not chide the child for being heartbroken, but hold her close and show her that even when she feels devastated, she is still lovable and very much loved.
HF, you wrote it would be rough to get your fantasy out of your life. I agree, that would be rough, why be so rough on yourself? You as a third grade little girl were so sweet and cool, what an adorable character! I hope you feel that way, too. Your dream of being the woman in a passionate power couple is brilliant, ambitious, fabulous, glamorous, and you totally deserve to have that. Why not? You’re in charge, it’s your fantasy! and not half bad at that. I may be going against the grain with this, but I hope you hold on to that dream – who cares if it looks unrealistic? It’s a dream! Cherish it AS A DREAM and explore it. It might be a good creative project, or however you do it, it’s got to have a legitimate place in your life.
Being conscious of whether you’re acting on the fantasy or on reality does not have to be rough. Self awareness is anything but a punitive sort of experience.
I notice that all my pain, disappointment, and anger in the wake of my acquaintance with the EUA’s actually arises when I lose sight of what I want and deserve, in the face of what’s in front of me. The two are separate and distinct entities. In my struggle to accept that they’re not the same, I alternatively resent my fantasy or the reality of him, thus create inward or outward conflict, etc.
Go ahead HF and want what you want, because the little girl isn’t going anywhere. I totally dig her.
cavewoman, this comment is so helpful! thanks!
Thanks for the great post Natalie! Gave me a lot of food for thought. On the topic of relationship smarts, would you mind recommending some resources where I can learn more? I really feel like I don’t have adequate relationship smarts and would love some guidance on how or where I can find the resources to help.
Thanks for all the great posts you’ve done!
I found this blog per a fashion blogger’s post. I have been reading here almost a month. I LOVE how you are sharing some rich advice and wisdom.
I have to say you have to watch out for intelligent ones who are emotionally illiterate. I had this on guy try to psycho-analyze me before we even had our first phone conversation. I had another guy who must have been used to women who were not as intelligent as him speak to me like I didn’t have sense. He was so disconnected and arrogant.
For me, I absolutely know that dating someone who is intelligent and cares about what is happening in the world is important to me. I used to live in a big city where I met people like that every day. Since I moved to more rural, suburban area, meeting unattached men in their 30s, without kids, who care about the world seems hard.
But as my options are more limited I find I’m doing exactly what Natalie says here:
“We become attracted to someone, they possess certain qualities and characteristics and then we correlate it to the rest of them and assume that because we’re attracted to them, that they’re someone that’s ‘right’ for us that can give us the relationship we want. Hard as this may be to hear, that is laziness and blind assumptions.”
On the plus side, I’m getting much better at reading between the lines. As soon as I sense that they aren’t emotionally available or can’t do a commitment, I bail. It seems like most of the men I’ve been meeting are. So I’m doing my “due diligence,” no longer being lazy and looking deeper at their intentions.
I dated someone with Aspergers Syndrome(although at the time I didn’t know it until it was too late). Not to belittle anyone with this problem but that experience was the epitome of highly intelligent/emotionally unstable. Honestly, it was the first time that I realized that for once in my life, I was not the problem.
Hi Sue –
Been there, done that – in fact, I seem to attract shy, Aspie-type men. They are very, very, VERY hard work, and you can end up becoming exhausted very quickly.
I think women with Asperger’s do better with men with Asperger’s as a rule, because they kind of ‘get’ each other better. But for someone who’s neurotypical (NT), maintaining a relationship with someone with Asperger’s requires endless, endless patience.
My barrister ex was not diagnosed – he refused to go for assessment, but used to plague me with questions about Asperger’s instead! He had some very clear and obvious Asperger’s traits, but he also had a possessive, highly controlling, emotionally-incestuous family – so which came first?
I hated the fact that he could hardly ever initiate physical affection of any sort, not even a cuddle. I hated the disappearing acts. I hated the withdrawal. I hated the poor social skills that always made me feel like I had to apologise for his bad manners. Yet there was also plenty of stuff that was loveable about him, and he has highly-developed intelligence in one specific area and a very well-paid career.
There are women who form lasting relationships with Aspies, but from what I have read of their ‘stories’, they are Florence Nightingales who become overinvolved in the whole Asperger’s thing, and this becomes a sort of relationship substitute. I was in danger of doing this myself, but I got out in time.
I suppose the important thing is to make sure you realise that you are NOT being feckless, fickle, too emotional or too demanding in wanting a relationship with someone who can respond to you.
PJM, if you hadn’t listed his profession, I would have sworn we dated the same guy!! LOL
Seriously, that one made me question my own mental health because I put up with alot because I thought(and everyone else who didn’t see him everyday thought) he was a “nice” guy.
Thank God we BOTH got out in time!!
This blog says a lot on the perception we have and what we choose as thinking it’s correct for us
intelligence looks sex good skin blah blah that’s what I wanted since I was a little girl marry a tall dar hansome type it’s these many tall dark and handsome that screw us over and you get the line at the end” you knew I was always like this” so what’s the problem now
the problem is you are an asshole
my guy is intelligent successful got him sel up the ladder using me the passport as bait is a GM now and guess what who the hell am I now the crazy bitch from hell
so yes he intelligently screwed me over
I am myself successful business manager single mum and work hard and that’s an area where my self estemm isn’t questioned till I see myself in the mirror!
Natalie, thanks for this post! I was actually looking forward to something of this kind, because it’s a subject I’ve been thinking about a lot. In my family there has always been given a lot of importance to intellect, doing well in school, or professional achievements as adults. And they all did very well at that, but they also had a decent family life: no dodgy marriages, everything ran smoothly, etc. Well, I had my revelation…guess when: with my last ex, a.k.a. Mr. Youth Organization. 😀 He’s a lawyer, he has a broad general knowledge, he travelled a lot, just like myself he’s into things like theatre, opera, classical music. BUT that doesn’t mean that he is capable of having a serious relationship. These things DON’T guarantee a stable relationship! As I said in previous comments, he’s the first guy of this kind that I meet, but I learned a lot in this period. If you are not on the same “wavelength” relationship-wise, other things don’t count anymore!
I agree with Grace when she says that intelligent people aren’t hard to find. I meet intelligent people every day. Then again i don’t have a PhD, , i am not a career person, i value life experience, art and travel more highly than anything else.
My weakness is artistic talent of some sort, particularly musical. I have had my fair share of musician knob-heads (through doing gig photography) who always put their band (and everything else) first and, needless to say, did not want to get into anything serious.
I think there are highly intelligent, decent people out there, just like there are decent musicians out there who are more than capable of a healthy relationship (the current boyfriend being one of them). The key is to put the ‘decent person’ part ahead of the ‘gorgeous/intelligent/speaks 10 lauguages fluently/plays guitar like Hendrix’ part. This is definitely where i was going wrong before. That and my weakness for the ‘tourtured artist’. Mostly they’re tortured because they know what absolute wazzocks they really are.
I have to watch out for the creatives too. SMH. I fell for this poet. He was sexy, passionate and emotionally unavailable. I let his passion and creativity cloud my judgment. Whew! He was a rollercoaster ride of emotions. He was a true faker. I let his “sweet” words pull me in.
Hey Minky,
I really liked your comment, because I think that it really gets to the heart of the matter: any time we put some quality, whether intelligence, looks, wealth, etc. above the requirement that the person require basic values like decency, we’re asking for heartache.
Cheers.
>>The key is to put the ‘decent person’ part ahead of the ‘gorgeous/intelligent/speaks 10 lauguages fluently/plays guitar like Hendrix’ part.
Simple as rain, and I think this is it. Ding ding ding, we have a winner! That is what I am going to do from now on.
Yeah, spot on…all those chats over the broadsheets on a Sunday morning,tours of galleries,sparky debate and the joy of shared book and music references….the joint massaging of egos that can lead to intelligent sex.
But…. That intelligence also meant that he could fire an articulate put down and name call with such malicious intent that I reeled. I read this article in conjunction with Natalie’s previous posts on ‘Hooks’ to remind myself of the importance of shared values in relationships over intelligence and shared interests.
I identified intelligence with sensitivity, general sensitivity to me and other people…Yet, the relationship never moved on past early future fakery. I realize that we substituted intellectual pursuits for any kind of realistic debate about where the relationship was actually going and we did this again and again. I never met his kids in 9/10 months…had to vacate the premises when they were around. He didn’t introduce me as anything other than my name, we could have been neighbours,work colleagues, ships passing in night. If he had had an accident, no one knew of my existence or how to reach me.
I’d be hurt and he’d play a song for me and we would dance in the kitchen. The stop/start nature of our relationship forgotten about because we both liked the song!
Our intelligence became the last refuge of two emotionally unavailable people.
It’s interesting that we’re talking about putting people on pedestals. I had him on one(he was one of the cleverest people I ‘d ever met) and I think he did the same with me? I read a quote the other day
‘ A pedestal is just a prison like any other small place’
We were both too busy and egotistical living up to our supposed intelligent relationship that we forgot the importance of shared expectations,trust,co-piloting,being there for someone during rocky spots and listening.
Excellent comment Lynda and made me laugh in parts. I admire your honesty and the growth you’ve experienced over the past few months. Keep going!
Thanks for the kind comment Natalie. My breakthrough is recent…I went back on my previous posts recently and realized I was just slagging him ad nauseum off in terms of his wanting me to jump through hoops,his hot/cold nonsense etc. Not relationship intelligent of me.
I needed to see myself as wholly responsible too.
When he kept me apart from his kids, didn’t acknowledge me….. I put up with it. Prize enabler. I did not insist on actions and words were easy for him week after week.
I broke NC, went back to same scenario. If he was setting up the hurdles or hoops that I needed to jump before he would commit to me I was the one preparing to jump, like some demented border collie at a dog show.(homage to Scottish roots there!) This meant I was content to be EUM.
I miss him though and the breaking of NC was not lightly thought out but I laugh, am laughing now… when I remind myself that despite all the conditions that he set up before the relationship could progress, strangely he never insisted on…no sex!!!!Funny that!. You are an education ,a unique force for good and I am glad I met this site.
demented border collie!! Bahaha!
Lynda: >If he had had an accident, no one knew of my existence or how to reach me.< I was in the same situation, and it is so painful. Not because I was the 'other woman.' I just got compartmentalized, it must be an EU introvert thing. It's so insidious. No one told me that being a secret while you're already deeply invested is a red alert, abandon ship situation... I never could have guessed how much it would hurt. Unlike with abusive behavior, I didn't know of common sense warning signs. It sneaks up on you gradually, and it remains inconspicuous until it's too late, and beyond... which has its own way of being pretty devastating. Day to day, I heard and learned so much about his son, his mother, her dog, the brother, his wife, their children!!! To me, they became REAL: in my thoughts, engendering fondness, concerns, etc... When I accepted that I was never going meet them, I actually missed them. I had to grieve them as one grieves lost loved ones, only not in the flesh, merely the prospect of meeting them... For them, I did not even exist. I used to torture myself contemplating how, while I considered him a significant other, I wouldn't be able show up as myself at his funeral! Okay, I know that was somewhat morbid and deranged, plus it was disturbingly akin to doubting my own existence. Under circumstances like this it is impossible to maintain a healthy sense of self. P.S. I wouldn't introduce anyone to my kids as any kind of partner unless the two of us were happily growing together towards marriage. When that's not the case, and it's just casual, regardless of introductions there is potential for someone getting used and hurt. Not worth it. Oh, it's tough to learn the hard way.
Cave woman, I get your sense of grieving absolutely.It seems your guy felt happy to discuss specific details, concerns,share confidences about his kids and aspects of his life to you whilst you remained in a box without a label. Ditto for me too. You are dead right about the insidious nature of it, takes a while to spot.
I had a breakthrough a few weeks ago and realized that these so called intelligent guys want to control every aspect of the socio-emotional distance between themselves and women.For a long time I didn’t know whether I would see him from one weekend to the next. Then we would have a lovely time together, lots of caring words but absolutely no real discussion ever, of any depth about where the relationship was going.(Apart that is in the first few weeks where he future faked like mad…)
I knew lots about his children, his daughter’s weight probs, where his son worked,when their birthdays were, lots of intricate details. I’d see their things lying about his house…
I think he liked to offload.Simple as that. He knew much less about my adult son, didn’t ask? My reality, real family stuff, real work problems fazed him.You could see him backing off.
In the context of the article, this incredibly intelligent man was using his intelligence to keep me exactly where he wanted me.A weekend lover to listen to him,make love to and to spend ‘quality’ time with.
You know, I’ve given up blaming him.There are women around who also want a relationship like that. I hope he finds one.
For me, I had a right to want more. I take full responsibility for enabling his behavior to me. I confronted it but it continued and I went back more than once to the same scenario. Pretty goddamn thick of me.
That signalled to him that I accepted the status of the relationship. He saw no need to change, nor do I imagine now, even thinks he should change. Thanks for your comment and sharing x
Great post, Natalie. One of the main reasons I was attracted to my ex is because he held a high-powered non-profit job, just like I do. I thought we were so “perfect” for each other because of this, and the fact that he was so successful in his workplace was very impressive to me. However, his job turned out to be the only aspect of his life where he was actually comfortable and confident; emotionally, he was a complete mess. His job is the only thing he has been able to control in his entire life – great at it, not great at thriving in a meaningful adult relationship.
I did end up thinking to myself after the breakup: “How could someone that is seemingly so successful and intelligent sabotage such a great relationship?” Your article helps to clear a lot of that up for me. Thanks again for your informative & interesting articles.
I think I’m learning!
I just sold my used car to someone on craigslist; the guy showed up to look at the car and we negotiated (I asked for 600 hoping for about 450 and he offered 400; I got him back up to 450). The guy pushed every which way before and after to have me pay little extras, for some gas, for some oil, for fees to change registration, AFTER we’d done the deal, but I stuck to exactly what we’d agreed on before the deal. It meant holding my boundaries, cheerfully but firmly, at least six times as he tried to say “You should pay for x,” or, when he went to pay for oil, suddenly not having enough cash (though of course still not having paid for the car – I’m like, You don’t have cash? How were you going to pay for the car?), or, when he went to finally pay me for the full amount, only having twenties and saying, Is $440 okay? and me saying, nope, here’s change for that other twenty. When we were done he said, “You happy now?” as if I’d bilked him, but I refused to be drawn in! Yep, I said. He finally said, “I like the way you operate.”
Definitely handled myself in line with having learned that there are boundary pushers out there, that people may fib, etc. Definitely noticed when a boundary was being crossed and firmly steered us back on course. Definitely handled it in line with not caring if he thought I was “nice,” because he certainly pressed at that button!
The Magnolia of even six months ago might have ended up paying another $150 in extras just to avoid conflict.
Yay boundaries! Yay self-esteem! This definitely counts, for me, as a kind of smarts that all the book-learning in the world couldn’t teach, and gives me a lot of perspective around what some, not all, dudes might do in order to get some action.
Good for you Magnolia! Perhaps things like this ARE book-learning…think of Nat’s books…education in a different area than what is normally taught in schools (university included), but no less important.
Excellent Magnolia. It’s amazing how boundaries and self-esteem are related to all aspects of life, not just EUM’s. I’ve started to become very aware of the tapes playing in my head and I do a lot of negative self-talk. Every time I catch myself, I’ve been replacing it with some positive self-talk. Your response to another poster regarding action not just talk helped me lot.
Lynda from L, I loved your response too…”all those chats over the broadsheets on a Sunday morning,tours of galleries,sparky debate and the joy of shared book and music references….the joint massaging of egos that can lead to intelligent sex.” Intelligent sex, nicely stated. Made me laugh all day.
Hey R girl…yeah…the foreplay begins with the skinny latte,punctuated by the sounds of free form jazz,long eye meet whilst discussing Caravaggio’s use of light,it’s off to by some oak smoked prosciutto(for later!)… then you fall between the 400 thread count Egyptian cotton sheets and…the bugger is still thinking with his dick!!!!
Good for you Magnolia! Myself on the other hand got drawn into a confrontation with a manipulative, aggressive drunk late last night (at work – yes at the library, go figure). It all happened really fast, it was long afterwards that I figured out where it went downhill. I took her bait when she challenged my knowledge; I couldn’t resist proving her wrong. (She *was* wrong.) Then she got me on the defensive by implying I was unprofessional. Hats off, it was masterful how quickly that sicko found the weak spots in my self esteem. Revelation: cavewoman cannot prevail over the dark side without the light of self awareness.
@cave: so interesting what works as bait, huh? sounds like you’ve found one of your buttons. you raise an interesting point about how “insults to our intelligence” can get us drawn into unnecessary conflict and put us off balance. i almost crossed a boundary with the car buyer when he started telling me he was best friends with his ex-wife and that he hasn’t touched a drink since he was 18 (I was so tempted to say, methinks thou doth protest too much … ). I didn’t, but really noticed how much I wanted to ‘set him straight’ on how he was representing himself to me. Why do we care so much when someone else says something wrong in our presence?
@runner: just another happy bday in case you miss my good wishes in under the last post 🙂
You know I am starting to think that there is absolutely nothing wrong with being attracted to intelligent people, men with large cocks or whatever you find does it for you. It’s just about making sure that you choose all the good stuff like kindness, being treated well, being cared about as well. I think Natalie’s message was very clear, its not an opportunity to bash intelligent men or women or your own choices in partners but a chance to see that no matter what the hook that attracted you in there has just got to be a whole lot more there to make the relationship fly. Why do we make it so hard to see what we would tell a 4 year old in the playground…if they don’t play nicely then go and play with someone else!
By Jove, I think I’ve got it. Read this comment and you can very well skip all my earlier ones.
Men, be they Assclowns or not, have an agenda when picking women. Good men choose with the agenda of finding a woman who’s emotionally available, supportive, psychologically healthy, et cetera. Assclowns choose with the agenda of getting a woman who has poor or weak self-esteem because the goal is to use then discard her. My particular Assclowns of the past had an agenda of picking silly braindead tarts whose blind adoration and absence of questioning or a life of one’s own validated their own sagging pe — ahem, insecurities.
The advantage males have is they pick with an agenda. Women need to develop just one agenda and one only when choosing a man:
“DOES HE MAKE ME HAPPY?”
I may be trying to sound British here and doing a bad job of it because I am an American and a New Yorker, but it seems “Solve that, and it’s sorted.”
HF Well, in my opinion your earlier comments are insightful…why do you feel you want to skip?
Re your agenda descriptions, I think we all have an agenda that involves standards,boundaries and that may or may not be healthy. This site and the support within is about encouraging exploration of ‘The Healthy’, not everyone gets it or wants to get it. I didn’t for a while.
I could have Florence Nightingaled for Britain….a.k.a ‘You’ve a problem…let me solve it!’
Also we,me, us,you blame the other person. Check my posts, I ‘m flaying him alive at times. You need to turn the light around, turn it on you. You’ll blink in that spotlight for a while believe me…but
no one will interrogate you, the questions should be your own, asked by you, about yourself.
In my respectful opinion, you got to watch those snap judgements ‘ silly braindead tarts’ are, were, making informed choices to get what they want, need for the evening. Reciprocally.
Read Natalie’s Jedi Mind article. How do you know for sure what these guys and the women they go for are thinking???
Re Assclown’s tendency to discard, no ,not always….often they want to continue with the relationship because their assclownery needs are met. If you widen your view from you, read others blogs…this too becomes evident.
Hey HF! try and sound like you,American,British,Scottish whatever…potato, patato…its about the search for authenticity. In all aspects of our lives,work,kids,lovers,people we meet randomly.
Finally, I disagree with you about the agenda. It is for me;
‘Do we make each other happy’
You are super funny HF, but I also could have shed a tear or two when I read your responses, stay on site . It would be really good to hear more of you.
HF
Does he make me happy is a good question, but we need to be happy before we meet the man. Which I am. So that’s step one out of the way. For me, step two is “now I’m happy what’s a relationship for? What would I gain?”
And while terms like AC and EUM are useful shorthand, let’s not fall into the trap of seeing it all in black and white, good and bad (except in extreme cases of abuse). Nor is it about “braindead tarts”. It’s more subtle than that, I observe EUMs/ACs often going for successful, intelligent, creative women, albeit with self esteem issues. It’s important not to get bitter and angry about it all. I don’t think anyone makes good choices in that frame of mind.
Also, we shouldn’t just veer from one extreme to another. Tall, good-looking, funny men haven’t worked out for me so I’m going for short, ugly, boring ones. That’s missing the point, though I’m still not quite sure what the point is.
It’s confusing. But I guess we just have to bite the bullet and do something different. I’ve been celibate for five years now and I’m very, maybe too, comfortable with it.
HF – when I was first coming to terms with being ‘had’ by an AC, and, again, recently, when I had a mini-relationship with an EUM, I was big on making theories on what these men want – and it would be naive not to think that there aren’t a significant proportion of men who would prefer to have a docile woman who I’d, possibly uncharitably, characterise as boring, and maybe even horribly insecure. (This is true for certain women too, though a less obvious, more recent trend.)
Anyway, what I have learned, HF, is that ACs and EUP (men and women) don’t actually know what they want. They kind of want a ‘weak’, submissive, fawning woman/man, but they also kind of want a self-composed, even aloof, alpha-high-achiever type. They want both and neither, hence not being able to commit to a cuddle, hence over-reacting to the wrong look, word, or approach to problem-solving, hence making obstacles out of anything. With both these men I was involved with, I tried everything – ignoring problems, being light and fluffy, indulging sincerely, being assertive, getting upset, quality time, time apart, being understanding etc. The reality seems to be that when someone is afraid of intimacy and/or self-obsessed (and sometimes these people are simply just selfish – they’re not always beleaguered by genuine attachment problems), they don’t want a good outcome. They don’t want things to work. They like uneasiness and impossibility. (And on top of this, I have to accept that feelings matter – they did not feel right around me.)
As hackeneyed as this sounds, I think I am looking for a relationship where both people want to make the other’s life easier, however the two people define that. And according to this definition, I might not like that passive wifey and alpha man is a model that dominates my social group, I can see that, usually, both parties get something of value out of it. It’s just not for me.
This comments resounds to me Elle. Your second paragraph, in particular, gives clarity to how I ‘m feeling at moment. I tried everything too, all the tricks in the magic box, the sharing of good intentions,the intellectual debate as foreplay and…..sometimes he wanted that…and sometimes he wanted a sexual athlete and he also wanted a back-rub. I’m starting to realise that what I didn’t try was to be wholly myself!
I get his behaviour. It’s what I sometimes wanted too…but what I don’t get with these emotionally available men and me as an emotionally unavailable woman is the lack of our ‘contentment’ or the strive to be content. I have to agree with you,a good outcome is not on the agenda.We met sometimes to spar.
To be, to exist as flawed individuals in the world, to accept that it’s not always going to be singing and dancing.The everyday churn was not on offer.
My last meeting with him and subsequent communications has confirmed this to me. He didn’t do reality. He was a caring,intelligent,exciting weekend lover. I had, sporadically, a lovely time. Natalie has written about this in response to an earlier blog….reality demands a response that demands a level of commitment that he couldn’t give.
I remained un-labelled woman in a box to his family, most of his friends, colleagues etc. It was like we got each other out to play with at weekends.
I felt like the woman who put the froth on the coffee.
I wasn’t looking for answers to all my problems, financial support,the royal wedding. I have always supported myself, not sure whether marriage is ever a place I ‘ll go again…but I was looking for authenticity in the relationship and efforts at co-piloting. I think I got there before he did(or ever will) with the continuing help of this site and other supports. I began to suss what I was needing in terms of a relationship. I ‘m just about holding onto that.
PS.sorry meant ‘unavailable’ man above..left out the’un’ in optimism for the future I suppose!
lyndda
good point – i never was wholly myself. I didn’t know what “myself” was. I’ve seen other women be argumentative, demanding and moody – and their men fall over backwards to accommodate them. I would never have behaved like that myself. but you know what, sometimes I DO feel argumentative, demanding and moody!
if we are ” nice” all the time we’re not really being ourselves. the relationship won’t work for us. the guy might even wonder that there’s a dimension missing.
As for “alpha male and passive wife”, I’ve not seen that close up but I do know a few wives who earn less or stay at home with the children (after all it’s still common!). I’ve stayed with them for days at a time and behind the scenes, the marriages are completely equal. I get no sense whatsoever that they don’t both respect each other and, yes, need each other.
I agree that being oneself is extremely important! I was always myself with the ex EUM and he said i was great fun, cool, intelligent, blah blah. But i also have a fierce streak which came out when he’d act like a plonker, which put him back in his place and would improve his behaviour temporarily. I eventually got tired of having to ‘tell him off’ every now and then (which became more and more of a regular occurance as time went on). After putting up with it for far too long, i got sick of having to scold him like a child and remind him how to treat me, so i opted out. Que months of yoyo-ing back and forth and endless mindfuckery, ’til i found this site and went NC (yipee!).
When you find the right person, you can be totally yourself, whether that be nice and easygoing, competative and career driven, fiesty and passionate, shy and reserved, or a combination of all of those (as is the case with most people). One should never have to hide or apologise for any aspect of their character and i believe that the right person would never make us feel as though we ever needed to.
Minky, great comment. We can apologise for something that we *do* if that something is apology worthy but never apologise for who you are. Ever. I remember an ex telling me off for wanting to do well at a game of crazy golf. He said it was unbecoming of me and if I really loved him, I wouldn’t care about winning or losing – we were playing with 4 other people… The boyf is very competitive and we have a great laugh playing games including when I get frustrated or do Michael Jackson moves when I’m doing well. Basically keep being you.
You said it, they don’t want things to work out, they are drama whores as are we. In fact, what I have found the more times I have flipped out due to the non-consistency the more they would come back to prove how much they wanted me. An emotionally stable guy would have run like hell, not wanted the drama. Then again, someone normal would never have driven me to the brink of insanity in the first place.
This was in response to Elle, by the way
I can completely relate to the subject. Intelligence and book smarts don’t always lead to relationship savvy- for men or women. My case:
I met a man last winter through my line of work, which is in the shipping industry. I provide technical services to ships. I visited the ship and he was my contact. He was one of the engineers.
The conversation drifted to politics and current affairs, and after a while, he asked me to join him in his stateroom (we kept the door open) for coffee and we talked about some books we were interested in. I left about 40 minutes later and the ship sailed. PS- this is not something I typically do.
I got email from him during the following months as the ship made its way along its trade route. He showed astonishment and genuine interest that he’d met a woman with similar interests and wanted to meet again for a “conversation”. At this time I was not at all interested in him as a romantic partner or even as a serious friend so I’d reply with brief comments and that was that.
March rolls around and he’s on a ship in a city about 200 miles away. This ship is in a kind of reduced operational state and it goes nowhere. His company took over the contract and he let me know he was there. When I went there to provide contract service, we went out to dinner and had a lovely time and he dropped me off at my hotel (no sex that night).
I learned he was getting divorced- but it was not yet final (red flag- should have run).
We saw each other several more times- me always doing the traveling (he flies up to his home state on weekends and even informed me via email he had a “great time playing bumper cars with his wife and son” during one of those weekends (why would you tell a woman that?).
When we went out he would complain loudly about what he spent on our dates, even though I paid for the hotel room. I split meal tabs with him. Still whined about money even though he had a plane ticket every weekend either to his home state or his mother in Florida.
We ended up in bed. He began to future fake while lying in bed with me- how I’d love his home state and I could fly up there to spend a weekend with him. I called him on it another time and he got defensive and said…
I called him on it another time and he got defensive and said “why wouldn’t you be able to come up?” but at the same time, he was very secretive about our relationship and had the nerve to suggest that he was “protecting” MY professional reputation by not allowing “the guys” to know we were an item.
He began to control communication. “I’ll call you tomorrow.” He would call, sometimes several times, but when I answered he kept it short and excused himself rather quickly.
He has an obsession with a local bar game of trivia where the winning team gets the tab cut in half. He actually got angry with me for suggesting we go somewhere quiet instead. “This is important!” (And I am not, apparently)
He talks about how this woman or that woman looks “smoking hot.”
He mentioned his wife while we were lying in bed together. And ex-GFs.
He’s 54- with a 10 year old kid who has begged him to take a local job so that he could be home every night- he refused citing money issues- does this guy think he is some sort of prize? Crummy dad, crummy husband, crummy BF. He is a classic AC with a king sized ego and he’s very selfish in bed…no wonder he has a trail of ruined relationships behind him. When the going got tough he shipped out…so I am shipping out on him, starting today.
jacqui,
sounds like you’ve made a decision to put you first. congrats and hope to see you around the site – I have been coming back here since dumping someone in September. the folks and conversation week in week out have been wonderful in supporting me through the breakup and in encouraging me to figure out my own sh*t so I can learn to love and trust myself.
were you looking for a committed relationship from this person? how did you “end up” in bed?
Jacqui
Just goes to show – doesn’t matter how intelligent, capable, charming, “nice” they are – or how stupid, incompetent, graceless and rude they are, the emotional unavailability all plays out the same way – hot/cold, future faking, disappearing, other women etc.
OMG …finding this website is like finding an emotional oasis in the desert of ” headfucksville” …I felt I was going mad till I found I am just one of many with similar stories!!!! …I am not ” mad ” HE maybe !!
I was the fitness instucter to my EUM …for over a year…before he started to lay it on thick…how he had always secretly hoped we would hook up…could he take me to London to “thank me for my expertise “…he spent 800 pounds on one date …swept me off my feet over various similar dates…as my marriage was just over…told him loved our fun times together but I couldn’t have sex for the forseeable future as I was too vulnerable…and of course he said he understood that ..and he just wanted to take care of me..lots more fun expensive dates…50 texts a day…” you are my future ” blah blah blah..then as I start to fall in love …trust him enough to finally make love ( which he concludes with..see you are so special..I waited 2 years to let someone in ) ….suddenly cold as a frickin fish !!…busy at work ?… oh really !! No one is too busy to text !! Cancelled major plans at last minute ..grr…never had the guts to tell me we are finished..tho I am old enough to recognise it ! …I have never felt this bad…as we used to have so much fun…we laughed together till I ached and sex was amazing …am now on anxiety meds from doc as I felt I was loosing the plot….I have only ever had healthy relationships in the past…how did this happen to me…and why do I feel so stupid !!! And used !! ??? Why do these guys lay it in thick ..” trust me babe..I will never hurt u..u are too nice / good cook / funny / …etc etc..worse than having my heart broken ..is having my trust broken…MUCH worse…this will redefine my life 🙁
Fitnessfreak. So sorry. I had to listen to Suzanne Vega’s Bad Wisdom after I read your post. It’s a good song. Sick characters have a special interest in heartbreak. You are going through a dangerously vulnerable time, speaking from first hand exp. here. You were right and reasonable to want to take it slow. I’m sorry it happened anyway. It boggles the mind what predators some men are.
Predator is the exact word my EUM used – we met when my divorce was getting underway, my ex hadn’t even moved out yet. According to his story, he liked me right away but he didn’t want to start anything because he knew that would have been predatory. So he waited a few months. And then he gave himself license to swoop down… oozing with compassion and sharing his own sob story, he got me to confide about my recent trauma – once that bond was forged, boom! romantic advances – again I said I wasn’t ready to see anyone yet, it would be too complicated. He assured me it would be simple, we’d take it slow – then once he slowly landed me in bed with his daily calls, he literally thanked me for the fun time and said he probably wouldn’t be able to see me again for the next couple of weeks. He likes to take things easy and isn’t looking for a relationship. Tis is typically when you get the “I don’t want to hurt you” line.
Whether it’s premeditated or not, this is still manipulative. It’s not uncommon, it happens way too much as this blog illustrates. I, like you, just couldn’t imagine that seemingly decent people would treat a good (or any) woman like this, until I learned the hard way.
You did nothing wrong. My guess is they see us as an opportunity to feel superior, wise, understanding, and capable of more empathy than they really are. In hindsight I can chalk up my case to experience, on a good day. Deceit is deceit. You’re not getting led further down that garden path, good for you.
Dear fitnessfreak,
I’m sorry to hear this happened to you and it certainly makes sense to feel used and angry; I hope that the feeling of “stupid” eases because this kind of thing happens to the best of us. People who use and cheat do it to smart, savvy people too.
It sounds like this guy waited until you were vulnerable and somewhat open to his advances and then turned on the charm with over-the-top courting. My recent ex-AC blew my student-on-a-student-salary mind with expensive early dates far above my ability to offer to pay half.
Some of these guys are ambulance-chasers who wait until a woman is in a place of needing support. Their princess treatment might feel a little weird (did it feel a little weird to you that he was so full-on?) but sometimes we ignore that because we “need” or “deserve” to feel special right now, etc etc.
I’m glad you found this site – I hope you find it as useful and supportive as I have. Your trust has been damaged and it will take some time to rebuild, but when you do, you will be even stronger than before, armed with new knowledge and knowing yourself better than ever.
Yup, ambulance chasers, that’s perfect Magnolia! They need to catch you off balance. The one that I encountered knows that he has nothing worthwhile to offer to a woman on an even keel.
Welcome fitnessfreak! It was the same for me – an oasis!
Your post made me realise something else about this site, and that is:
Many of us have had bad experiences with men that wouldn’t have happened if we had ‘listened to our mothers’ – not our real mothers, per se, but that whole glorious tradition of womanhood that says ‘Keep your legs crossed, baby’, ‘men will say anything to get you into bed’, ‘if he’s getting free milk’, etc etc etc etc.
None of our stories are new; they are just the consequences of having, for the first time in history, actual sexual freedom. How we use that is up to us. Because we haven’t really known what to do with it, a lot of us have been very badly hurt. Bad sex – unloving, uncommitted, uncaring – has the capacity to hurt a woman much more than a man, and I don’t think that’s just pre-feminism talking; I think it’s the voice of experience of generations of women.
I know another woman commented once that she loved this site because she’d been looking for this information in so-called women’s magazines for years, and not finding it. And that’s true, too – they’re mostly about How To Please Him In Bed, or variations on that theme.
Anyway, I hope you get all the help you need, and more!
Hey, I am the reader that commented on looking in women’s mags and other sources…I believe in expressing my sexuality as I wish to. I do not think that “saving myself for marriage” would have improved things…I don’t trade or sell myself for a relationship of any kind. What I sought and seek are tools to recognise danger signals as well as healthy relationship habits. Another reader recently wrote that a key is to be willingly to step out of a situation when we realize it is harming or not working for us despite how much we may love them (along the same lines as Natalie stating that we need to recognise this no matter how “crazy” we are for them; that we MUST take care of ourselves and the costs of not doing so are so soul-sucking). I’ll be damned if I’ll go back to double standard crap…but I’ll also be sure to go in with my eyes open, ears listening, and gut and mind fully ON…willling to walk away despite any attachment.
BTW When females were the matriarchs of their tribes and other family groupings and dieties frequently seen as female in nature women were freer to be exactly who they were: sexual, expressive, capable, powerful…frequently heads of the spiritual realms, bleeding not seen as a “curse” but as the life-giving potential it represents. There were wise-women: healers, nurturers, teachers…I could go on…Natalie is a “modern” version of a wise woman. Just because our western societies have bought into patriarchal ways of thinking does not mean women must buy into it. There’s plenty of “herstory” out in the world…we are just now starting to hook back into it.
Yes – totally! Women could choose whicever men they wanted to father their children, the men had no say in the child rearing (unless the woman allowed him to) and a family’s title and possessions were handed down in the female line, because you always know for sure who someone’s mother is.
I think we have been increasingly affected by a partiarchal society where women take a passive role. I think this has a huge affect on modern women’s self esteem in general. One should live according to one’s own values and not restrict oneself because of what is deemed ‘acceptable’ by someone else’s standards.
I don’t necessarily agree with the waiting and keeping legs crossed either, because I’m very liberal that way, but each to their own. I think you have to do what works for you.
In my case keeping knickers on for longer would also not have made the slightest difference with the ex EUM. Also, men who are traditional and judgemental about a woman who ‘puts out too quickly’ are not interesting to me in the slightest, so if anything it is a good indicator of whether a relationship will work for me in terms of shared values.
I think everyone has to choose their own methods based on their own values. There is no hard and fast rule with this i don’t think, it’s a very idividual thing.
Fitness Freak,
please don’t let someone who brought you sadness define your life. You were a great person before you met that man and you will continue to be a great person afterwards as well. It gives them way to much power over your life to allow someone who has hurt you to define you. They are just an unpleasant blip that you will in time totally get over and move onto healthier and happier relationships. Sorry to read you story, but you will heal from it and only you can choose what defines you, so choose yourself and the great things you can do!
Welcome Jacqui and Fitnessfreak,
You are so fortunate to have found Natalie, this website, and all of the fabulous, highly intelligent, well-rounded, and thoughtful folks who comment. I have been where you both are and it is miserable at first but if you keep reading Natalie’s stuff, it really can help. It may be that you both encountered the classic Mr. Unavailable.
I treated myself to the best B-Day weekend ever. I downloaded Natalie’s book Mr. Unavailable and the Fallback Girl. I’ve been on this site for about 5 months after hitting “headsfuckville” (nicely stated) and read almost every blog post and all of the comments. However, the book put it all together and provided context. It is an amazing book and I’ve read quite a few (no a lot) of self-help books. This one has helped me the most. I highly recommend it as Natalie finally assisted me in focusing on my role in providing the perfect opening for Mr. Unavailables to come marching in and screw with me. I’ve played the role of Fallback Girl to perfection.
Jacqui, you may want to consider counting your blessings your ex EUM shipped out. Excellent timing. Fitnessfreak, it may be a blessing in disguise yours was “too busy to text”. He’s blowing cold. I experienced the same thing and, in retrospect, noticed that he was never too busy to text if he thought we were going to hook up that night. He’d blow hot with 50 texts and phone calls throughout the day.
Sounds like it may be a great time to go no contact?
My best to both of you. It can get better, although I’m still struggling too.
Runnergirl, little do you know that this morning you helped give me a mini epiphany. Thank you! 😉
I just got around to reading this. I wish I could send it to my dad and have him actually read it. After I ended things with my ex I decided to take some time to work on myself and my own issues. Since I’m not getting any younger my family was really pushing for me to find someone “before it’s too late”. My dad kept asking me if I knew what I did wrong in my relationship with my ex. His thinking was that if I knew what I did wrong then that knowledge would automatically keep me from making the same mistakes. I kept telling him it wasn’t a knowledge/intelligence problem it was an emotional problem. Intelligence does me no good when I ignore it to follow my heart or my hormones.
“OMG …finding this website is like finding an emotional oasis in the desert of ” headfucksville”…”
couldn’t agree more! i was struggling for almost a year to get over a breakup of what i thought was the TRUE LOVE of my life, Mr. Brilliant/Creative/GreatDad, until i found this site. i read many relationship books, did therapy, even joined a support group for “Love Addiction”. i started reading the posts here frequently, and somehow the messages about A/C’s, EUM’s, boundaries, and especially No Contact really started to sink in. when i read the one about “Knowing When To Fold”, i literally pictured myself at the Relationship table in the casino, not able to let go even though i knew it was a losing game (a year-long one at that) — and i thought, “that’s it, i lost… there’s nothing i can do about it. i tried everything i could think of, and it sucks — but i lost. i need to fold. right now.” then i imagined myself putting my cards down and excusing myself. two weeks later it was my 46th birthday, April 29 (yeah, the Royal Wedding day). and what do you know? there was an email from the A/C, after 3 months without a word. and, another empty promise he hasn’t kept to ring me “in a few days”. but a miracle happened — i felt absolutely NOTHING. earlier that morning, i wept while watching the RW, as my A/C had taken me on a whirlwind romantic trip to London last year. but somehow, when i read his words, i thought “that’s IT??!! THIS is what i’ve been pining over for a YEAR?!” — and the heartache lifted from me. i’m finally getting my sanity and my MIND back. i’m not over it yet, have a lot more work to do, but i now know his cruel behavior after doing the whole Future Faking trip (“we belong together”, etc) was not my fault. perhaps now he might be getting a clue that this time, I’M THE ONE who isn’t returning the call/email. unbeknownst to him, i decided to cut contact after he chose not to respond to the nice email i sent on Valentine’s Day. it was the final straw, after waiting, hoping, praying for 9 months to get back together, leaving the door open for his communication (after he broke my heart last summer with a Vanishing Act). i’m not doing No Contact to play games — i realized all this “brilliant” guy ever wanted in the first place was a fantasy infatuation he could use as a distraction from his separation and impending divorce. now all he wants is an ego stroke.
i broke my rule about not dating Separated/MM, because he is an old friend from college, and he did everything to convince me he was sincere and lure me into falling in love with him. but the moment i had actual expectations the relationship would be moving forward — he bailed, big time. i only hope it doesn’t take me years to get over, as it has w/past heartbreaks.
I’m sure we’ve all felt stupid during our ‘relationships’ with ACs/EUMs. The confusion and mind games defies understanding. After breaking NC and getting back with my AC, who wanted to move in together, have a proper relationship, blah blah, I fell for it again and after he had a nice dinner and stayed the night I didn’t hear from him for 2 weeks. I felt used and stupid and decided never to contact him again.Today I received a text telling me how busy he’d been and ‘maybe we can get together at the weekend?’. I’m speechless. Has he forgotten what he said? Does he think I’m the stupid fallback girl? My self esteem has hit rock bottom that he thinks I’m so easy to run back to him.
Oh Shattered, I’m so sorry.
Yes he probably does think you’re the same fallback girl, but he’s wrong. He’s totally chancing his arm. He’s got nothing to lose, the worst that can happen (for him) is that you don’t respond. I really hope that is what you are going to do. That will send the message loud and clear that he will get nothing from you anymore.
Don’t get yourself down about this – it says everything about what a selfish, insensitive prat he is. It says nothing about you other than you’ve made some bad choices in the past – and who here hasn’t??!! The thing you have control over is your actions and decisions TODAY, so act in your own best interests and just let him get on with his stupid, deluded life. You’re not that woman anymore.
Minky, that was really well said! Shattered, I’ve been where you are and I know how much it stinks to have someone incredibly selfish essentially hijacking your emotions when it suits them. The only thing I found really helpful was to let that selfishness further galvanize me into staying NC, realize that this type of man is no loss and that this type of behavior had nothing to do with me and my value as a person. I had to remind myself that he thought I would come running when he called simply because it’s what I’d always done, not because I’m worthless. This type of guy is just thinking about himself and what he wants, so you absolutely cannot base how you feel about yourself on his actions, because at the end of the day it doesn’t have much to do with you, me or any other Fallback Girl. They act this way because they could in the past and it’s up to us to show them that it’s no longer an option. Hugs!!
Shattered, what a d*nk. I remember your earlier story: what he did was downright mean. I’m sorry he was able to reach you at all: either totally daft and not able to think of others, or looking to ease his guilt. What a totally selfish douche.
@PJM I agree – waiting can be very beneficial and certainly won’t do any harm. But there are just as many EUMs screwing us over without having sex with us. Happened to me. I’m glad we didn’t have sex as that would have made it even worse but I was still having panic attacks, anxiety and a self-esteem crisis. And some of them withhold sex for whatever reason.
To drag this back on topic, picking an intelligent person doesn’t guarantee emotional intelligence. Avoiding sex doesn’t guarantee you won’t get exploited (but you won’t get pregnant!. I’m not sure there are any guarantees, but I think we can help ourselves a lot more than we have been.
Well true, Grace. Well true. I didn’t have sex with the last EUM, and I am SO SO glad, because I felt awful enough being emotionally fucked over without adding bad sex to the cocktail!
Before I read this, I just want to say that the BIGGEST assholes/assclowns that I’ve ever dealt with were QUITE intelligent – this degree and that degree, this license and that license, etc. etc. ad nauseam. (I LOVE the title of this entry, by the way.) The one thing I’m proud of myself about is that I no longer give a damn about what degree a man has. My best relationship was with a corrections officer who didn’t finish college. He’s rough around the edges, but he was very good to me and could hold his own just like anyone with a “degree”.
Off to read now…..
Just finished reading this and YEP! – expresses my sentiments exactly. (What one considers) Intelligence is often so overrated and often used to cover up signs that just scream “I’m an asshole/assclown!”. 😐 I’ll take relationship smart/co-piloting over so-called “intelligence” any day.
thank you for your support and encouragement..reading others so similiar stories is very soothing ..but also disheartening that appears so common..do these guys have a ” modus operandum “..the fast forwarding/future faking/hot- cold/..ta da…vanishing act !! ??…is it planned ??
I find it almost impossible to believe that some one could be so cruel ..especially if it is pre-meditated..in my case the EUM had known me for over a year..so he knew the reason for my divorce was becuase my husband had behind my back lost his business,our house and all our savings..making me and three children homeless at christmas. I know work lunetic hours to feep a roof over our head…so for the EUM ( who I thought was a friend ) to tell me how he wants to build me an exercise studio..house ..etc..help me pay the bills…take the pressure off me….i was probably an easy hook…..which is so saddening…as I really did believe all he said . I knew that since his divorce 2 years ago..he has had no relationships as he had never wanted one he liked his new independence…so for him to ” let me in ” as he said..did make me feel like the exception…..how do you know you’re not ” the exception ” ?? and that he wasnt just ” scared ”
and why do these situations make us think sooooooooooo much….my head hurts !!!
Fitnessfreak,
wow… the way your marriage ended is the worst nightmare… by far my single greatest anxiety during my divorce was how I would provide for my children (I’d given up a good job to stay home with our baby). The pain from the breakup, having been cheated on, etc. actually paled in comparison. It would have taken superhuman strength not to eventually give in to a smooth talking “rescuer” pulling on heartstrings and offering a shortcut back to stability. (Heck, I fell for someone who never even offered such a thing! Silly me.)
As hard as it is to accept when you’re reeling from the shock, you’re not very likely to find out what really went on in his head (especially if he vanished – a sure sign of his unwillingness to be honest with you or with himself). The most charitable and most realistic take is that he was fantasizing out loud at you, without rationally thinking it through and anticipating the possible emotional consequences for you. To disappear is essentially to hide from those consequences, a cowardly refusal to acknowledge or even witness your sorrow and/or outrage. I’m at a similar dead end myself… For what it’s worth (which would be zero at this point) he probably would have liked the fantasy to miraculously come true, only he hadn’t anticipated the steps in emotional growth towards a new commitment, and his own inability to take those steps. WHICH however IS NO EXCUSE.
Shame on him. Now a special pocket awaits him in hell for men who exploit single mothers in need.
Natalie, I’m not sure what mini epiphany I contributed to for you but I’m glad I could. You, however, gave me a MAJOR epiphany yesterday when I read your description of “Miss Independent Miss Self-Sufficient” (MIMS). I have never been so aptly described. Overachiever–explains all the damn degrees; workaloholic–until recently; loves the thrill of the chase; fear of intimacy; jaded and cynical; scared of losing my independence; blowing hot and cold; disappear if a guy gets too close; casual sex–until I don’t want it to be casual; financially independent and I gaurd it fiercely; super critical but not interested in changing anyone, I just bale. I have a “Toxic Type” highly intelligent, Mr. Unavailable alpha males (married ones are best) and whenever I feel like dipping my toes in that’s who I choose because I know they won’t be interested in penetrating the brick wall I’ve built around my independence. Yet, you are so right. I’m just one giant walking contradiction because I don’t want to be alone but I don’t want to depend on anyone. I want to wake up to someone I love but I’m afraid of losing myself. The best ever self-relevation: I don’t want to be like my mother! I watched my highly educated, intelligent father screw my highly uneducated, dependent mother (she put him through school) over leaving her with five kids, a fatal STD, no education, and no job. That isn’t going to be me, nosiree. Thus, I don’t just attract EUM’s, I actively select them, preferably married because being the OW absolutely ensures that I will remain MIMS. Finally, your book got through. I couldn’t understand my role because I was so focused on them. This isn’t about the EUM’s. It’s about me. It is finally about me. Wow, what a break-through. Whatever minor epiphany I might have contributed could only pale in comparison to what you have done for me. I’m stunned. Thank you doesn’t cut it.
I haven’t downloaded the book yet – but this is the second time in about a week that I come across the Miss Self-Sufficient thing on the site and wondered – did I miss something? I’ve read most of the posts on the site. Is she as significant a character as Florence Nightengale or The FB Girl?
runner’s description sounds familiar … time to download … but maybe a separate post for this character is in order, as her strategy sounds like one a lot of us on the site have adopted …
Magnolia and everybody, download Mr. Unavailable and the Fallback Girl. Miss Independent Miss Self-Sufficient (MIMS) could be substantial character but there are other types of Fallback Girls. MIMS is just me. Natalie does a fabulous job in identifying the various characteristics of how we play perfectly into the role of Fallback Girls, whether it is MIMS or another type, and feed perfectly into the various types of Mr. Unavailables. The book connects the dots. When I relied on this wonderful blog, the posts, and the comments, I missed the context Natalie so wonderfully provides in the book. That was precisely what I was missing: What is my role and how do I end up unhappy time after time? I got it now. DOWNLOAD THE BOOK. You won’t wonder after you read it. It beats War and Peace, hands down.
Opps, forgot to mention…it is a scary book as you see yourself described to perfection. I’m going through the motions to meet my obligations to get through this week (finals) but scared to death of seeing. Thank you Natalie. I finally see me. It is scary.
Done! Now must stop reading and get some sleep …
LOL re War and Peace.
i so appreciate what you’ve written! it’s just maddening to try and make sense out of all of it, when you feel so traumatized. the mind keeps searching for some kind of explanation that makes sense in the context of the understanding of “normal” behavior. only… it’s not normal. i wasted at least 10 months, time i’ll never get back, looking for answers. my overactive mind believed if i could understand exactly what happened on his end, i could then “fix it”. it’s hard to say for sure if they premeditate, maybe there is some part of them that knows they’re going to be hitting the Eject Button soon, so they are careful not to communicate what’s going on inside their little A/C minds so they don’t get talked out of it. or, maybe it’s some type of actual Personality Disorder, made worse by a higher IQ! i asked trusted friends their opinions, even the therapist i went to at the time would only say “we have no way of of knowing what’s going on in his head, the only thing we have control over is ourselves.” the first post i ever read on Baggage Reclaim was the one about when they “breakup and vanish” — a friend who knew the situation sent it to me. thank goodness she did, it gave me the best explanation i have heard anywhere for this phenomenon! it helped so much, it’s hard to believe that was only a month ago, and the amount of relief from the pain just from learning some new insights & perspective!
Anoosh, you haven’t wasted a moment. The folks and therapist you’ve talked with may be on to something, we can only hope to figure out what is going on in our head, not theirs. Based on my past, it may take the rest of my life to figure what is going on in my head. I’m probably not going to have much time to figure out what is going on in their head. I’m hopeful that if I get me figured out, I won’t meet up with the likes of them again?
Somehow or another, I missed the conversation that stemmed from HF’s comments. GREAT conversation.
I have a good friend who was just like you, HF, except she’s a medical doctor. No athletes, no military men, no cops, no this, no that, no either or, no the other….. And when I was in my last relationship with the corrections officer who didn’t finish college (as I’ve said many times on here, my best relationship thus far), she said “I’d NEVER date a corrections officer.” I almost cursed her out but knew she was delusional and cut her some slack.
Fast forward 3-4 years later to now, and who is she with? A former Marine who just got out of the military less than 6 months ago and 6 months divorced with a 5 or 6 year old son (she said she’d NEVER date a man with kids), and is now a college student (said she’d never date someone who was still in college) studying to be a physician’s assistant (said she wouldn’t date a PA either!). He’s an exception to the divorced-men rule (ONLY AN EXCEPTION LADIES!!!!! DON’T MAKE THE EXCEPTION, THE RULE!!!) – great man – and I’ve not seen her this happy in a long time. After all the “intelligent” and [insert requirement(s) here] assclownery she’s been through, I’m glad she got off her high horse, took some time to herself, and is now in a decent relationship. He cooks for her, for the love of god!!! A woman can only dream….. 😐
Sorry for rambling. Great conversation starter, HF. Thanks for sharing and hopefully you’ll stick around. 🙂
Spinster
That’s cool. Though there isn’t a no-divorced rule. There’s a separated-but-not-yet-divorced-rule. Or a slightly less stringent just-got-divorced-rule.
I have to declare an interest – I’m divorced .
Ahhhh, that sounds about right. Thanks. 🙂
This article is the most lucid and comprehensive analysis of the topic in question I have ever read. To be honest, I don’t think there are many posts in the blogosphere that tackle this exact topic, and I just want to thank you for giving such a well-adjusted, enlightening perspective on it.
I was in a relationship 4 years ago with a university student (I was also a university student – we lived in the same college) who was so intelligent in his field of study and such a consistently high-achiever that it completely blinded me to everything else. He was also fairly musically talented and good at sports, but his emotional state in our relationship was exactly how you described it in your blog post – quite literally word for word. My views on him were exactly how you described too – I seemed to think that because he was intelligent, that he must be intelligent in all other ways too and I made excuses for his emotional unavailability, thinking that he was obviously TOO intelligent and had better things to think about than how to nurture his relationship with me.
This type of thinking caused me a good 2.5 years of emotional distress AFTER our break-up, as we remained ‘good friends’ (i.e. saw each other practically everyday and continued our ‘relationship’ without actually acknowledging that we were still dating). I simply could not grasp the idea that he wasn’t somehow emotionally intelligent too – it didn’t make sense to me, and I kept thinking that if I continually provided an environment in which he could be more emotionally comfortable, that he would become more emotionally available to me. He didn’t budge a single bit! Almost 3 years later, I finally made peace with it (with countless hours of advice and discussion with my friends and incredible boyfriend – who, funnily enough, is the most emotionally available, down-to-earth, kind, loving, rational, well-rounded AND intelligent person I’ve ever known in my life).
I now understand that while ‘intelligence’ by itself has its merits, without other qualities that can contribute to a healthy relationship between two people… loses a huge chunk of its credibility. I know that some super intelligent people tend to think that nurturing their relationships is a waste of time and they could make better use of their time by pursuing whatever their area of study/work is. That’s fair enough.
If that makes them happy, then so be it! Who’s to say they are wrong? They aren’t. Happiness is subjective to the individual. But if you are somebody who very much values a meaningful and deep emotional connection with your significant other, I think it would be wise to be cautious of forming romantic relationships with ‘super intelligent’ people. Ultimately, I don’t think a deep, emotional connection and emotional availability is something that should be compromised for a lifetime.