House hunting has reminded me of my last post, Appearance isn’t the same as worth. Each day we look at properties on the likes of Rightmove and Zoopla. We’re immersed in photos, floorplans and descriptions, some that are well written and others that don’t do the house justice or are trying to cover up the characteristics and qualities that an estate agent suspects may raise objections.
It’s easy to look at one photo or several and immediately discard a house. Equally, it’s easy to look at a person or their photo and dismiss them out of hand.
It’s those snap judgements that we can all be guilty of and to some degree it comes with the territory. When it comes to people, what can temper this tendency is to observe without judging and living by your own values. While I can’t stop people from making snap judgements about me, in knowing that I haven’t liked being judged for my appearance, race etc, I’m very conscious about catching myself when I do it.
We know what we’re looking for and while there are aspects that we’re willing to compromise on, there are others that are a deal breaker. There’s only so many houses we can physically see (just like there’s only so many dates you can go on) so we have to do the due diligence with our research. That said, we’ve gone to view houses that we’re so-so about based on what we see on a website or app, because we may be pleasantly surprised and dismissing a house that could actually have much or even all of what we want. We saw a house last weekend that outside it’s not the sexiest looking (I do love a period property – ours is late Victorian) but inside it’s ticking a lot of our boxes. We could love and live in that house.
We don’t need to be in love or even crazy excited in order to go and see a house. It’s just a house viewing just as it’s just a date. You don’t need to be in love or have your imagination running wild with possibilities in order to go on a date.
We’ve seen houses online and been all geed up, believing that they’re a serious contender, only to get there and it’s not what we thought it would be in the flesh. We fell in love based on snap judgements. It’s not just people where we take how they look and other attractive qualities and characteristics and then over-correlate them and assume that others will exist and that they’re perfect for us – we do it with houses and pretty much anything where we tend to fill in the gaps with our imagination and wants.
These fantasy experiences reminded me of when I would feel deflated on first and second dates. I’d have to come back to earth because the person hadn’t lived up to what I imagined or hoped him to be, which in fairness wasn’t based on much other than how they looked and some initial chit chat and flirting. After doing the fantasy thing a couple of times with the houses, Em and I have reined it in. We’re keeping an open mind and have become more attuned to the things that are likely to spell incompatibility, making it easier to rule out a property. It also means that we’ve been pleasantly surprised on occasion.
I’ve talked before about not being blinded by appearance and it still stands whether you’re looking for a house or a relationship partner. It’s not that appearance ‘can’t’ be part of what attracts you but superficial reasons cannot be the main driver of non-superficial big decisions. Using superficial reasons as a primary basis for making a huge decision is impractical and possibly foolhardy. It’s like getting the structural survey back on the house that says that there’s major structural problems and that certain issues need to be addressed before proceeding and going, ‘But I look good in this house’ or ‘It doesn’t matter.’ What’s the point in being with somebody who looks just as you imagined The Ideal Person TM, if in practical terms, you’re incompatible for a relationship? It’s a relationship (or a house) without a foundation. Superficial reasoning as a primary basis for something that requires deeper thinking and a big commitment is a problem.
It’s not that appearance doesn’t play some part but appearances can be deceptive – great on the outside, not so great on the inside. Looks great but structurally unsound. Looks great but isn’t compatible with your needs. If you want a show home or show relationship, knock yourself out but if you want something and someone that you can live with and love, you’ll need character and substance. You’re not going to find this if you’re just staring at and admiring them while blowing smoke up their bottoms and pumping them up.
Appearance is not the same as worth. Sure, people use it to make big and small decisions but appearance isn’t the same as your self-worth. Appearance can give the impression of value but it’s not the same as the value created by just being, which is character, how you live and what you do. It’s a combination of lots of factors, not just one thing and when it that one thing (appearance), then you know that that person is blinded by it. Sure appearance will be used, especially when making snap decisions made on impressions and assumptions or when there’s a lot of admiration and even glorifying going on, but by the time it comes to making bigger, deeper decisions, use deeper information.
When somebody loves and likes you, they like the way that they feel around you and enjoy creating something mutually fulfilling, not standing around basking in how you look makes them look and admiring some feature on you as if it’s your source of value. Do you want how you look to be someone else’s ego boost? Your purpose in life isn’t to model their ego for them.
When a person truly values you, they value you for all that you are, not latching onto ‘good points’ or just your appearance. Be you in the fullest sense both inside and outside.
Great follow-up to the last article. It’s not that looks aren’t nice, that status isn’t nice: you wouldn’t buy a house that was absolutely run-down or in a dangerous neighbourhood and expect to live comfortably there; it’s not superficial to care somewhat about a person’s self-upkeep and their lifestyle.
I just sent an email to ask out a person at work who I am interested in. I went back to this article to vet myself:
My interest stirred up a few old tendencies: fantasizing, imagining him to have good characteristics I have no idea that he has; and then swinging to devaluing, assuming him to have characteristics I want no part of, all based on a couple interactions. These habits seem almost funny, now.
In any case, *by appearance* I can’t say this person is anything special. He’s got a regular job and seems pretty normal. Even appearance-wise he’s pretty average. But I have felt my own spark of interest each time we have run into each other so I figure, what the heck. I can handle getting turned down, or him not being what I fantasized about. Who knows if character-wise he might be compatible – how else can I find out?
I was thinking after the last post (after my folks let me down regarding contacting me to be present for my sister’s labour, and then yesterday I dropped the ball in a big way at work, and it was the same mess of awful feelings) about how I keep thinking I want someone with a certain kind of job – I meditated on the feeling I assume I’ll have with such a person – and realized what I want is to know that I’m with someone responsible. I chose the last AC because he had investments, a big management job and tons of people reporting to him – I thought that meant he was responsible. So wrong.
It takes time to learn if someone is truly responsible. Appearances mean little. If I were to go by those, every doctor that I go to should be trusted, – they must care and be responsible, right, they’re doctors? But no, the ones in the schmanciest offices, I’ve found, have been the ones that make me feel like they’re paying for their Ferraris off of my suffering.
Kathleen
on 20/09/2013 at 11:30 pm
This article is full of truth.
I tell my 18 year old son repeatedly that the heart and character of a girl is what really matters. This is the eternal factor, while looks are temporary.
Natasha
on 22/09/2013 at 4:45 pm
Reminds me of classic Judge Judy saying, “Beauty fades, dumb is forever.”!! I can personally attest that, “Handsome is nice to look at for ten minutes, assclownery is forever.”
Confused123
on 23/09/2013 at 9:18 pm
The painful side of superficiality is when THEY are the superficial assholes.
The EX-Asshole is a superficial bastard. When he overlapped (read: cheated)on me to be with the red head he said the following. Quote ” ’cause she is stunningly beautiful and flaming red hair make me want to get lost in it. Plus she work with me more height-wise”. What he did not say but implied was “oh! By the way she’s white too…”
I’m 5’4″, 125lbs, brown hair, light skinned half east Indian/English/Dutch but not white. I am in no way ugly but he made me feel like shit.
Today I came to the realization that there is no such thing as karma. I don’t believe in it anymore. Sometime bad people do bad things and get to live happy lives. we just need to suck it up. So be it….
Lilia
on 24/09/2013 at 1:23 am
Confused123,
I´m not sure about the karma thing. I just found out the uber narc lying harem king EUM who got me here unexpectedly lost his job a while ago. And that must´ve hurt his ego way more than he hurt my self-esteem. I find I start grinning whenever I imagine him being told to get his things and leave his office.
Tulipa
on 24/09/2013 at 3:15 am
Confused123
I couldn’t agree more.
I don’t believe in Karma either the ex AC is just going about life as though what happened at the end of relationship didn’t happen and had no effect upon his life.
Where is his suffering and just desserts?
Makes me have some understanding towards those who go out and seek revenge.
JustHer
on 20/09/2013 at 11:33 pm
Interesting points here.
On the flip side, I always went for the out-of-my-league bad boys who I never ended up talking to or have more than one-sided fantasy relationships with.
Then I fell for a super-nice (seemingly) quiet, below-average in looks, nerdy guy when he kept chasing me and kept saying all the right things. In the end, I liked the idea of ME being out of reach for him.
I told myself he should be grateful to have me in his life, but I also began to see that we were equal in terms of intelligence, interests etc. That’s when the superficial bubble burst.
It didn’t matter that I was “too pretty” for him because he turned out to be a cheating AC. In this case, my fault lay at taken the sub-level superficial aesthetics and assuming that this meant that he HAD to respect me and keep my trust.
It is easy to fall for perfection, but I realised that it is just as easy to fall for imperfection because you believe that it would result in a purer character – after all, if he doesn’t have the looks, how could he also NOT have the personality? I got my answer: very easily.
Lilia
on 21/09/2013 at 5:18 am
JustHer:
I had a similar experience, and it made me realise how tricky this whole appearences-business can be.
After some bad experiences with good-looking guys (who were more in love with the mirror than with me) I got involved with a guy I´d always found nice but wasn´t physically attracted to. He is plain ugly – and no, there´s no way you can be subjective about it. Think Boris Karloff at his creepiest mixed with an Easter Island moais and one long eyebrow. For years I had thought “if only he´d look different, he´d be such a great boyfriend”. Until I started thinking that maybe he was a great boyfriend precisely because he wasn´t handsome. That he must have a wonderful, reliable, sweet character underneath (and he was kind to me, before we became romantically involved).
Which is the same as being blinded by appearances, only I was adscribing positive characteristics to his unattractive looks.
So. I was very, very mistaken. He ended up being the worst narcissist EUM I´ve ever met. None of my previous experiences had brought me so much suffering and insecurity. Sometimes I wonder if I got so hurt because I was fooled for so long by his unattractive looks and meek manner. With the popular, handsome guys I´m more cautious and I don´t take them all that seriously. Which is just as unfair as trusting an unattractive guy just because of how he looks.
JustHer
on 21/09/2013 at 4:40 pm
Lilia, so, so true!
I justified all his looks away by saying that he MUST be an incredible and compassionate person underneath. And I was completely lost under his unattractive looks – how could he cheat when he had such a good thing going with me?
I wasn’t at all cautious with him and hence missed all the red flags – a lesson in life I guess now!
I still see him around and often think “was I drunk the whole relationship!?” Because he looks weirder, but uglier than his outside is his inside.
Never again falling for that trap!
Little Star
on 23/09/2013 at 4:59 pm
Lilia, wow, you are so correct! Funny enough good looking guys more respected me and loved me:) My last two ex ACs were not that good looking, and somehow I thought they would be happy to have me as a girlfriend and appreciate me more! NO, it was not the case…so it is hard to know where we can win or lose:(
Rolly
on 21/09/2013 at 2:17 am
Great post! I agree with this totally because fortunately & unfortunately for me – men usually find me attractive. But what comes with this is a lot of unwanted attention, jealousies of insecure females & ideals placed on me that are not my character.
I’m a sound, grounded, compassionate spirit & I know it. I’m modest, try to stay humble, a person of my word, honor morals, values and my upbringing. I look for the good in all living things. I try with effort to do my best daily. I have excelled personally & professionally. I’m a good mom, sister, daughter, aunt & friend. I know my worth.
All of this & I’m still single. Too many people are living superficially and meeting someone compatible is like a chance meeting. I have given up on the idea but I refuse to settle. For all the men who have pursued me just to be shocked by my character – either find me to be something like a phenomenon & leave because they deem themselves “not worthy” -or – attempt to continue pursuit just to become resentful after awhile & go for “easier” targets.
I’ll just continue to embrace & accept my uniqueness while offering this to everyone I meet. However, I will not fall trap to NMs or EUMs no more. I’m grateful for my opportunity to catch the attention of others but I will not let it define me! & I won’t let others treat me based on how I look. Good or bad.
Able
on 21/09/2013 at 3:04 am
I looked at an apartment this morning. The take away was, great location, cool landlord, easy commute. But small space and alittle pricey for it. I thought, if money were no object, would I take it? And the answer was a suprisingly easy no. I would be cramped in the space. So, what’s the equivalent to relationships? The “if money were no object” question? I guess it’d have to be, if I weren’t afraid of getting my heart broken again, would I try? Or, just shorten it, if there was no fear.
Is that what it’s really all about? I wonder. I have said a few times, I’m afraid of making another poor decision. So, I hesitate, then my choices narrow as the window closes.
Or is that just negative thinking?
Dunno… any ideas? (btw this is the first time I’ve posted using a full keyboard instead of my phone.)
Peanut
on 22/09/2013 at 12:53 pm
Able,
The keyboard makes all the difference doesn’t it.
Ummm, it’s one apartment that you don’t like or maybe many, but nonetheless two things come to mind:
1) There is no such thing as perfect in any worldly realm.
2) You will always be missing out on something. That’s called choosing. We commit to something and miss out on the other unchosen opportunities. It’s not a bad thing; it’s reality.
If you’re framing heartbreak around dating, you are not ready to date. Dating healthily is fun optimistic, sometimes funny, and uplifting. Yes, you will have disappointments, but they help us grow, find out who we are and pave the way for immense gratitude when we do find someone with whom we are able to cultivate a mutual, worthwhile experience.
As for the apartment, I don’t know. I love small spaces, and except for a tiny bed, hate furniture.
Mellyphant
on 21/09/2013 at 8:29 am
Im relieved to say the least at hearing other peoples comments as it helps me realise im not the only one struggling with this issue.
My first ever school boyfriend who i fancied broke my heart and it seems like since then; i can’t trust being the one who likes more. This has led to a situation where a guy who liked me (a good, honest, lovely guy) asked me out and we dated for over 7 years; but i didnt fancy him and struggled to be intimate with him for this reason. I ended up calling it off even though from the outside i had everything; simply because i could no longer live with the imbalance.
Since then i have met someone who is basically the same guy again; great lovely guy; good friends etc. he treats me like a queen and i know we could have some great foundations in a relationship BUT the imbalance is there! Im not attracted to him but i am to how me makes me feel and its taken a lot of strength to say NO to going out with this chap and essentially repeating previous mistakes.
However i now find myself in a boat where i think im only ever going to end up in a relationship just the same; beause im too scared to go into anything different. Whilst getting into a relationship where they love more and look after me isnt a bad thing; its the sacrifice of attraction that makes me so sad. I’ve never felt attracted to anyone i’ve been intimate with and ive always had to force nyself to be intimate in the relationship
Should that really be the trade-off? It feels so disingenuous for something that should feel honest.
Carolyn
on 22/09/2013 at 3:31 am
Mellyphant…I worry about the same thing…since finding Baggage Reclaim I have looked back on all the men I have ever been passionately attracted to…and they have all been emotionally unavailable assclowns. I have never been attracted to anyone who shows me they care about me, and I would like to change that, hopefully by finding myself worthy of being cared about.
Susan L.
on 21/09/2013 at 1:05 pm
Wow! This post really hit home for me. I have been off of the dating sites now for about a year. As
I read over this post I SO realized that I had been judging people as if they were a house.
It’s also been just over a year that I have had n/c with my EUM.
If he were a house Natalie he would have to be CONDEMNED! Great looks on the outside, severely
damaged on the inside!
This site has been a blessing in my life and I
thank you Natalie!
Moving On
on 21/09/2013 at 2:35 pm
Mellyphant,
I don’t think forcing yourself to be intimate sounds pleasant, it sounds like hell. Although the inside is what matters, you have to have that attraction. Being attracted to someone also doesn’t mean they are attractive to everyone. Everyone has their own taste. I personally, would rather be alone than be with someone I have to force kissing just to be with a guy that worships me. That just sounds miserable to me. I have many friends that have done this, and they were miserable and so unhappy. So to answer your question, no I don’t think that’s normal. You deserve to feel happy and not be with someone just to have someone. Hold out for someone you truly feel that connection with. It’ll be worth it, trust me 😉
Tabitha
on 21/09/2013 at 4:05 pm
Oh my Dear Lord Natalie, you have been spying on me again! The picture even looks like me, and yes, I am worried my new target man is a little too short.
Shame on me! He is a bit tubby too. But, he seems decent and trustworthy, hardworking and honest.
He can take it when people rib him a little, and seems interested in what others have to say.
I keep veering between “going for it” and thinking I should stay back because I might end up hurting him. Why am I making everything such a drama? I am not fantasising like I normally do, which is good, but am I just using him as some kind of distraction?
How do we know? I am trying so hard to use all my BR education and get it right but I guess sometimes you have to accept that your control over the outcome is limited and you are always going to be taking a chance in some way?
Ms Determined
on 22/09/2013 at 5:56 am
Gurl, you and I are in the same place, but I am way worse than you. I’m seeing the guy again…the one I wasn’t sure about. I veer wildly between thinking he’s got 4 legs and then thinking he’s got none. He checks so many boxes it’s like dating a giant woodpecker. On the other hand I WANT TO RUN AWAY. It has been 8 months now, if you don’t count the couple of weeks we spent apart after I freaked out and dumped him. Then like the totally fucking EU unit that I am, I asked him if he would mind being my FWB while I really worked out what I want. He fucking agreed. Then I said I was happy for it to be back on. I have no idea what I am doing.
I totally suck at this. Nat should expel me.
Tabitha
on 22/09/2013 at 11:34 am
Oh Ms D you made me laugh out loud as usual.
I am sure Nat would never expel you.
I wonder if we are just overthinking things? I don’t think I would respect a man who was willing to be messed about by me like you describe. Did you really want him to tell you to go to hell and “man up” a bit?
With my guy, I think I have to listen to my gut. It is telling me that I would be using him as a passing time candidate. But of course I have no idea what he wants, or even that he wants me, although I think he does. GAH!!!!!!
simple pleasures
on 22/09/2013 at 8:35 pm
Ms D. I’ve followed your posts, and no, most everyone here has been back and forth with the one that brought them here. One poster who had a baby with her ex slept with him again this past summer after a lot of BR. Another has sought campaign support from the MM who brought her here. Another is seeing the ex boyfriend who can’t commit. In
some way we’re probably all on the chopping block for expulsion.
But having followed your wit and insight, I’d like to offer this: I think perhaps you do know what you are doing, and that is why you have come back to us.
Janine
on 21/09/2013 at 5:06 pm
Love the illustration. It is wise to not make snap judgments. But I’ve always wondered about what women think of men with very small penises. I was with a “tiny” guy for 18 months. We connected on so many levels and I did not want to be superficial, but still, after a lot of experimenting, I found the sex to be quite bad. I broke it off, but did not tell him why. At first I felt like the shallowest human being alive, but later I accepted the fact that no one is perfect- meaning not all of us are capable of overlooking ALL superficial things.
Singles are ALWAYS advise by couples not to be to shallow because when they met their spouse… he/she was not what they had imagine. But, most of the time the person they ended up with was not some uber hottie.. just another regular person who was about as attractive as they were.
When I first started dating… I only wanted the hot guys.. and of course that is a flawed strategy. But another flawed strategy is to continue to give guys a chance whom you have zero attraction after 2,3, 5 dates or even 2,3, 5 months.
I think it’s ok to be slightly superficial. I became a happier person when I accepted this about myself. And a happier me meant I was a more attractive person. I’m currently with a decent guy whom I’m happy with. He’s no Brad-Pitt-in-his-prime, but he’s not a short, pot bellied guy twice my age either. It’s not a crime to hold out for some one whom you’re actually ATTRACTED to. Realistically, you can’t entirely separate a person from their looks.
Peanut
on 22/09/2013 at 12:32 pm
Oh, Janine, I LOVED this.
Though oddly enough, I don’t think Brad Pitt in his prime was that great. I don’t know…slap some thick glasses on him, trim the hair and part it a bit to the side, and then throw a cardigan on him, some tight slacks, shiny shoes, a tie and we have a match!
Actually I think I just made him gay.
People keep telling me I am attracted to gay men. But really I like cultured, clean cut, gentile, thoughtful, graceful, delicate, stylish and intelligent men. I don’t think a guy has to be gay to be those things or vice versa. Oh, well, just another type to shed.
See, this is the superficial me coming out! So many of us have it in there. Somewhere.
And here’s a secret: When I think about dating, there is a thought in the back of my mind that goes as such: “Please, God, don’t let him have a small penis, please, God, don’t let it be the small penis guy…” I know terrible, right. But, geez, I haven’t had sex in nearly a decade, I feel I deserve at least average to work with. Geez, I’m turning as red as radish. But it’s true.
Maybe there’s some small penised guy out there going, “Please don’t let her have big feet, please don’t let her have big feet” (I have disproportionately large feet) and we’ll end up together. But, yet I’d be getting the shite end of the deal as you don’t have sex with your feet. At least I’m pretty sure 99% of the population doesn’t.
But if I have an adequate vagina, it isn’t wrong to want a sufficient penis. There I said it.
For now I’ll just keep the mantra as follows: I just want a warm, loving man with whom I share the same values with who is attracted to me and I him in a mutually fulfilling relationship based on love, care, trust and respect.
Linden
on 23/09/2013 at 7:10 pm
“But if I have an adequate vagina, it isn’t wrong to want a sufficient penis. There I said it.”
Hilarious! Good for you. I’ve had the small penis dilemma with a couple of guys too, complemented in both cases by insufficient rigidity. While size isn’t everything, it is in fact something. I like to know the guy’s actually in.
Mymble
on 23/09/2013 at 8:12 pm
I feel we have to be very careful about this kind of thing. Many of us feel that we have been treated like blow up dolls, and I wouldn’t want to stray into that kind of AC territory.
If it was men going on about wanting a tight vagina, (as opposed to a cavernous childbirthy one),- and sometimes they do- I for one would find that really offensive and demeaning. It’s not really any better when women do the same thing.
Linden
on 24/09/2013 at 12:52 am
I don’t think the two are quite the same. I don’t believe there is any such thing as a vagina that’s too stretched out to be capable of giving pleasure — it’s just an excuse men use for why they should be able to have sex with virgin teenagers. And a penis that doesn’t fit me will fit someone else.
twistinmysobriety
on 05/10/2013 at 4:35 pm
Mymble, I agree with you. Going about shouting that a small penis will not do for me is extremely offensive and really AC territory. A lot of men do actually claim that they want a tight vagina and a loose one is just rubbish. I think we should be really careful about judging people’s body parts which they cannot change. Just think about how BAD it must feel to a guy with a small penis or a woman with a loose vagina. You are effectively saying that they are not good enough because they are physically defective. If you have low self-esteem about ANY part of your body, how does it feel like when you hear others saying they would never even consider dating someone with the said “defect”?
Penetrative sex is just a small part of sex after all. Good sex is all about communication, chemistry and the connection you have with the other person (and care, trust and respect of course), and most of all, how you feel about yourself as a man or as a woman.
Of course, a large penis is a plus, but it would never be a deciding factor for me.
Mymble
on 22/09/2013 at 2:50 pm
Janine
I know what you mean. All other things being equal bigger is better than smaller. But all other things are never equal. As it happens, the best lover I ever had was very small.
Could it be that you are focussing your discontent with the relationship on that one issue? Like being massively irritated by the way someone chews their food and pronounces certain words. It’s an indication that you’re not really happy around them and really anything they do or don’t do will bother you because there’s an underlying problem. I honestly believe that if you had really loved the guy it would have mattered very little, or not at all. Afterall penetrative sex is only one of many interesting bedroom activities! 🙂
Lilia
on 23/09/2013 at 3:52 am
Janine,
I don´t think preferring a larger penis is superficial. You say the sex with the small penis was quite bad, well, then things weren´t really working between the two of you, were they? After all, connecting physically is at the core of every romantic relationship, isn´t it? It´s not about having interesting conversations or doing business together or whatever.
I have to mention, though, that I fell madly in love with a guy with a small penis in my 20s. Penetration itself was a bit lame but he was an expert at foreplay and all the rest. I loved sleeping with him because he liked to cuddle and would help me get my bra on when I´d dress the following day.
Just before him, I had been involved with a very tall guy who was gorgeous and had a large penis. But sex with him was terrible, it even hurt sometimes. Exciting as he was to look at, I could not have a decent conversation with him because all he cared about was watching car races on tv. Ironically, he contacted me through Facebook a couple of years ago and would I like to meet him again because he had such fond memories of me. I immediately remembered his huge penis and squirmed. I wondered if it would still hurt to have sex with him (yes, I know, this was before we even saw each other in person again) and decided I didn´t even want to try. I´ve been avoiding him since.
I would love to hear from small penis guy again, though. Of course, as things go, he has no need to go looking for a sweetheart from long ago.
Snowboard
on 23/09/2013 at 2:43 am
“But another flawed strategy is to continue to give guys a chance whom you have zero attraction after 2,3, 5 dates or even 2,3, 5 months.”
In the last six months, I have gone out with two different guys.
The first one was/is truly lovely, a real gentleman. He took me on very nice (and expensive) dates and we had a blast, talking, laughing, everything. Yet, I felt no attraction for him whatsoever (he is kind of socially awkward and also overweight), and I ended things after three dates. Now we hang out as good friends.
On the second one (about a month ago), I had a strong sexual attraction to the guy but he was waving a ton of glaring red flags from the moment we met (in a bar). As happens with such guys, I got burned badly. I only went on one date with this guy, thinking I was just investigating the situation, as I had question marks, and it seemed worth a shot to look into them. On the date, he actually verbally cleared up all the question marks I had (without me asking – he just did so on his own), and I thought maybe this could be something. We hung out for hours, lots of kissing, laughing, discussing possibly being in a relationship together, etc. At the end of the night he asked if he could see me the next day (it was Wednesday). As a good BR student, I said “let’s wait until Friday,” not wanting to fast forward things. On Friday I received an email from him saying he wasn’t going to go out that night. And then when I went out that night with some friends, guess who I ran into at a bar? Him with a (male) friend. The story gets a little more dramatic but that is the gist. He disappeared.
In any case, I guess I still think I did the right thing by giving both guys (the good one with no chemistry, and the bad one with chemistry) a shot. I think the first 1-3 dates can be used for just investigating those two issues: Am I attracted to him? Does he seem like a reasonably good person with whom there might be relationship potential?
But I would be curious if anyone else on here has a different opinion. Perhaps I shouldn’t have gone on the date with the red-flag guy at all?
Leilani
on 25/09/2013 at 11:51 am
My previous boyfriend was 6 feet tall, slightly overweight & stocky, dark hair, dark eyes. He was a very sweet, interesting, nice guy, probably too nice! We had so many interests, even almost the same birthday. So very compatible on paper. But he had the smallest I had ever seen. It was like a little boys. Looked far worse as he was a large built guy. I hate to sound shallow but I think a sexual relationship is important, I have a high sex drive and we hardly ever had sex! It was a disaster, the condom just completely buried him. He wasn’t really experienced now I know why he was a virgin, he lacked confidence. I was always very supportive and understanding but knew it couldn’t go on. Obviously I didn’t say why I ended it was a mixture of reason’s but the sex thing is important to me. I can’t be celibate in a relationship I had been single for too long.
Kriss
on 21/09/2013 at 6:17 pm
Natalie, don’t tell me you’re passing on this little gem? Beautiful late Victorian exterior…
I particularly love the marble lawn in the back, and all the chandeliers 🙂
Joy
on 21/09/2013 at 6:59 pm
This is actually something my ex said to ME…that I had looked good on paper and that that was important to him. It still feels like an insult more than anything and in the end makes me feel like I was this huge disappointment to him.
Rage-dey Anne
on 21/09/2013 at 7:26 pm
When I was growing up, I listened to countless stories about how great my father was, and people told me I was so lucky to be his daughter. They’d rattle on about his higher-education, status, accomplishments, ….
He’s an accomplished member of society, highly revered in his community of cronies and followers.
But in reality, resting on his pedestal, a vile, disgusting, selfish human being, who only does for others, so they’ll do unto him is what I find.
Triggered by something someone stated yesterday, I tried to once again “right this wrong,” as I told someone of supposed wisdom and grace she is full of shit, and she is full of shit, and so many people really are full of shit, and people stand by so eager to admire and glorify them, and then I reflected on my job, and how I know my employer is full of shit, and the situation is full of shit, and so many things in life are bullshit, and how these situations trigger me: I feel compelled to say something about my perceived bullshit-ations, to point them out to everyone. I want to remove the masks, show people the ‘truth.’
As I’ve traveled through my journey, I’ve contemplated whether I “needed to be
‘right.'” Am I a righteous contrarian? I wondered if it was my ego? Was I harboring jealousies? -seeking purpose? Was I seeking human contact? trying to force people to engage?
No. No. …and NO. I really think these people and situations are full of shit!
But, I’ve been asking myself, “so you think they’re full of shit, but why are you so angry about it? And why are you so focused on their shit? You know all you have to do is just walk away, or focus on a solution to any problems that truly affect you, and/or others who ask for your help, and blah….”
“And why do you keep deliberately seeking these situations out, and then planting yourself right smack dab in the middle of them?”
I understand I’m NOT God, and my opinion is mine alone, and I’ve reminded myself of my belief in respecting other people’s boundaries, their journeys, which includes others’ rights to do and think whatever the fuck they want, so what gives?
I looked to my child-self for answers, and she just wanted to be heard, and wanted people to stop telling me how great my father is, and she wanted people to validate what a shit my father is, and she felt powerless in the situation, but I’ve reminded her I’m here now, and we aren’t powerless in the situation anymore, and we don’t need other people to validate the bullshit; if I think it’s bullshit to me it’s bullshit, and she doesn’t need to feel like the bullshit-slayer anymore.
I think I’m always going to be leery of people, situations, and entities, who others praise and…,… because there is truth in this lesson…, but I want to own its origin, and handle it, as an adult.
I still can’t stand people, entities, etc where clearly actions aren’t matching words. I see it as a lack of integrity, a civil wrong, and it just grinds my buttons. But, I’m gonna direct my energies into more productive goals, where I can come from a position of love.
That situation with my father is, also, why, when people start rattling off about how educated, well-read, etc. they are, I’m basically off in the corner thinking who gives a fuck? And truly, I don’t give a fuck.
And talk about a total mind-fuck, my father taught me to dislike his cronies and their bourgeois ways, as he mocked and taunted them behind their backs; yet, he was proud to be one with them.
Are you a good person? Do you maintain good character and integrity? What have you done with your higher education and intellect and the rest of the gifts God gave you to help others and the world?
But, I realize, I’m judging them , and I don’t know them. Maybe they are just proud of their education and achievements, as I am mine.
And, I actually love education, knowledge, powerful thinking…brilliance….
People constantly tell me “I’m not giving enough to the world, I don’t want ‘responsibility,’ and I’m not living up to my full potential; I could be doing more.”
I’ll never agree anyone knows me better than I know myself, but I’m thinking some of the self-sabotage to sort of step into my own is due to my extreme desire to NOT be anything like my father, and some of the twisted beliefs he managed to instill in me, whereas part of me still pooh-poohs formal education. The rub: I feel like God doesn’t make mistakes, and HE carved this lesson, and it has created some of my greatest gifts, but as a mere mortal, I still cannot reconcile the wicked suffering known as the human condition.
Though I really believe, it just confirmed what my soul, higher-self, already knew, and my gifts are just ‘that’–gifts.
NoMo Drama
on 21/09/2013 at 8:23 pm
I make a distinction between “good-looking” or “handsome” and “attractive” — I’ve been out with the handsome guy who has nothing interesting to say for himself, and FLUSH. He doesn’t even look that good anymore once you get a look at the emptiness upstairs.
If the guy is no breathtaking stud, but is good company, intelligent, respectful, funny, etc. — I’ve had a few of those get better-looking in my perception once I got a closer look at what was going on inside, i.e., once I got a sense of what was really attractive about him beyond his face/body.
I often get glanced over and dismissed for not embodying some superficial, media-driven physical ideal, and I hate it. I try not to perpetuate that thinking if I can possibly help it, by taking some time to try to see past that with people.
Tinkerbell
on 26/09/2013 at 9:27 pm
NoMoDrama,
You brought this to my mind. When a man is unappealing, but of course acceptable in all the other ways, hygiene, manners, I find that if he has an interesting personality, diversified interests and intellingence I focus far less on looks. And when I was young, a guy had to be above average looking for me to be interested. Now, on the contrary if a man is extraodinarily handsome, as my first husband was, but a mean, selfish sonofabitch, he no longer looks that good anymore. His good looks become unimportant when you’re being treated badly. The man I have now, fortunately, has it ALL. But, at this stage of our lives I’m sad to say we will never be married or cohabiting. Our lives are too different and I don’t see us making many sacrifices. Shucks!! Timing in life means so much.
Selkie
on 21/09/2013 at 9:04 pm
Don’t judge a book by it’s cover. Take the time to read the description on the back or open it and read a few paragraphs. Sometimes the best books are one’s that didn’t immediately catch our attention. It’s okay to have preferences, but to limit our choices of books to one aisle of the bookstore or one’s with blue shiny covers is missing a lot of good reads. But, if you really dislike books on a certain subject, don’t force yourself to read one. Be authentic to yourself, but also open you mind to new possibilities.
Tabitha
on 22/09/2013 at 11:38 am
Great metaphor Selkie. I think when you are trying to overcome your own EU tendencies, and have fantasy dreamer leanings, it is really difficult to calm the hell down and not project too much into the future and overthink everything.
Selkie
on 22/09/2013 at 5:09 pm
Tabitha,
I know what you mean. I have waves of calming down. The calmness brings clarity and acceptance for me. Just last night I was laying on my couch eating choco pies ( my successful version of Peanuts cookie story ), alone, and feeling pretty damn good. For the first time I actually wondered if I even want a relationship to disturb my blissful peace. The butterflies I used to feel seem more like a neural irritation now. I think I have arrived at this place of healing that is like being weightless. While my life can be quiet and solo, it’s bliss to feel no pain, anxiety, or confusion. I am just living and being me. I think it’s where I needed to be, where I needed to find to really get into my own skin. Before, I was calmly frantic (deceiving myself) about filling the void, although I had no idea. The void is no longer this sucking vortex. It’s just white space that I can live with and a much needed rest from the frantic needs I imposed on myself. It’s clearing the canvas for new inspiration. I still leave room for hope of finding a happy partnership, but I no longer let it take the reins.
Selkie
on 22/09/2013 at 5:31 pm
On good days. 😉
Tinkerbell
on 26/09/2013 at 9:34 pm
Selkie. I totally agree. You can have a satisfying relationship with a man, but still maintain separate living quarters. I think that’s the best of both worlds because then you don’t have to comply with what the other person wants/needs in yours/their own home. When they really piss you off you can go home and vice versa. LOL!
Maeve
on 21/09/2013 at 11:19 pm
I began writing a post in response to this topic in which I was going to give myself a pat on the head for choosing character over looks. It’s true, starting in my twenties I began paying attention to how someone made me feel rather than what they looked like.
Ok…I did that for a time, but then it sneakily shifted into how someone’s status made me feel and I started equating it with good character etc.
To my credit, I’m incapable of loving or investing in someone who doesn’t love me. But! I STILL waste precious time getting attracted to status…and then blowing the person off because I’m not feeling their love vibe.
I’d love to figure out my own pathology here and bury it 6 feet deep.
Great post as usual, Natalie. Thank you.
Snowboard
on 22/09/2013 at 1:37 am
A good post! And yet my ACs have frequently been BAD on paper, and even worse in reality, hahaha.
Peanut
on 22/09/2013 at 9:57 am
Snowboard,
That’s the thing, so many women just take these men as is (I’ve been there) and let them mull over everything that makes sense in their lives. Such. A. Shame.
Lara
on 22/09/2013 at 3:20 am
I really suffered from this, to be honest. My standards appearance-wise were so very high — which might explain why I didn’t go out with anyone until I was 29 (that, and having self-esteem issues which really was visible to others, and made me look unattractive — also, I didn’t take care of my looks because of self-esteem issues). I always wanted to go for guys that I had a really excessive amount of attraction to (like my AC ex). After the horrible experience with my abusive ex, I have realized that looks can be and are deceiving ,maybe not always, but a lot of the time. In the past, I’ve avoided men who were interested in me, and showed that interest to me, because I didn’t feel like they were up to my standards, in terms of looks, but also in terms of education, etc. I did make an exception with my ex regarding education (he didn’t even go to college), but because he had a stable job in a very big company. I still think education is important, and isn’t the same as appearances, because it allows you to share a certain mindset and be aware of certain problems (especially if one of you is still pursuing graduate education). But I’ve also realized that if I’m going to wait for an educated guy to like me and for all the stars to align and for things to work out, I can be waiting for a long time and having that as an unbending standard/rule is almost like wanting to mail-order a husband.
I was actually trying out the online dating thing recently. I had two guys chasing after me — one of them asked me out to dinner, the other asked me out to a coffee meet-up. I had never met them before so it was going to be a first date. I decided to drop the dinner guy because I had a sneaking suspicion he was a bit of a jerk and was fast-forwarding / trying to wine-dine me too soon. He emailed me 2 days ago and said that he was now out of town til November. He hadn’t told me he was working in Europe. He then said, I didn’t know I hadn’t told you. He may have been talking to a dozen other women and thought he had told me, or may have been prepping me for a dial-a-lay, for when he got back. Anyway, I told him good luck and flushed. 🙂 So glad my doucheradar was fully functional. It was so reassuring and gave me hope that I am on the right track. The second guy , I went out on a coffee date with, and he was ok-looking, but his career isn’t as impressive as the douchebag guy I just mentioned above. But we clicked on other levels. He asked me if I wanted to go out for another coffee date or for drinks. I thought it was a bit too casual for a second date and I was a bit unsure if things were going to work out, because I didn’t get that “spark” I had with my narc AC ex. But deep down, I felt like it was my old bad habit that was making me unsure about giving this guy a chance, so I decided to drag my old EU self kicking and screaming to a second date with this guy. 😉 And because I didn’t like the idea of a coffee date and wanted him to put in a little bit more effort, I suggested that we go for drinks at the pub. We did, and it turned out to be a super-fun evening. He then suggested that we go elsewhere, and we went to play pool (I had never played it) and bowling. 🙂 We got back to my place and things got a bit heated, but I don’t regret it, and so far he’s shown to be very consistent and not an AC — he texted me the next morning, and the day after that as well (today). Several times in one day, in fact. He seems to be a very decent, respectful guy, though I don’t want to be too hasty in judging. So far, no red flags, that’s for sure, and I have asked him several questions to test for any red flags. But nope, none so far. And he even asked, while we were at my place, “hey, wanna go out to dinner? And watch a movie?” I said yes, I’d love that. 🙂 This was such a different experience than the one with my ex, and at first it kinda made me distressed. I told him (after sex) about my ex. Probably not the wisest thing to do, but I don’t know what came over me. I was on the verge of crying, both then, and when we first kissed, because it just reminded me of my ex. I felt like I was finally letting go of him and all the memories we shared, by going out with someone else, and creating memories with someone else. I don’t know how to explain it. Anyway, I feel better about it now, and want to continue dating this guy, and he has continued to show interest and treat me with respect. That’s all I want. I don’t want a guy who wines and dines me (though offering to pay sometimes can be nice). I can pay my own way. It’s not about that at all. It’s about the desire to be respected and for him to seek out my company. I am optimistic. I don’t even want to think about the possibility that this might fall apart, though, because I don’t know how I would handle that. But maybe I’ll cross that bridge once I get to it?
iving a guy I am not really that attracted to, a chance.
Peanut
on 22/09/2013 at 9:52 am
Or…great in jeans, but not so much in person, or…great in the box on the shelf, but not so much in my mouth. Allow me to elaborate:
Today while entering the supermarket to fetch an organic avocado I passed the sweets section (conveniently right as you enter, eh?, dirty bastards) and a certain cookie caught my eye. First off it was Halloween themed. I fucking love Halloween.
The icing was a midnight violet with orange and black sprinkles, then here’s the kicker: Just about an inch a part from one another, tiny white ghosts nestled in the icing. I just about lost it. Yet, I walked away and repeated, “I accept my addictive desire,” twenty times. Then to the avocados which were hard as a rock 🙁
Later that night those tiny little ghost amid that midnight violet background danced in my head. I had to get to that fucking supermarket. (Lucky or unlucky for me they were open 24 hours. Fucking America, who does that? Who really needs to get their grocery shopping done at 4 am? I don’t want to know. I think the truth will just sadden me.)
I bought the cookies along with some other weird items: garlic cheese, hummus, broccoli (Hmmm. When I write them, they sound quite normal).
After taking a sip from a tiny jar of organic milk, I reached for the first cookie, slid it in my mouth and CHOMP! Shite. It tasted like shit. It tasted like clay and crayons mixed with aspartame. I tried another to make sure I didn’t get a bad one. That one was bad too and then the next as well. I ended up eating three. The second one to quality control, the first and the third to justify the midnight trip to the store and, well, eating the former two.
I have cracked the code.
I love the way my ex looks. I’ll spare you all the details as I’m sure enough of you have caught wind of them.
His looks were my main hook.
Just like in my eating addiction (I want most what I tell myself I can’t have because it’s bad for me) I also strongly desire what ticks my visual box.
Now, there is nothing wrong with being enamored by our lover’s looks or relishing in the beauty of our food — as long as both are good for us.
The thing is healthy food ACTUALLY looks better, smells better, and, yes, even tastes better. (I’m not talking a plate of sprouts and dehydrated black beans, though, I don’t know…) But a savory meal of sauteed greens, warm butter smothered duck with a heaping plate of wild rice versus a Nugget Meal at the local Buddy’s Speedy Grub (this doesn’t actually exist. At least I hope not.) Just as porn is the fast food version of sex, unavailable relationships are the fast food of healthy intimate committed romantic relationships. And true to form, the former leaves you sick as shit.
I got hung out on the looks factor and ravenous when I took a bite and there was nothing there, just some artificial flavors and due to stubbornness, I failed to admit where I went wrong and ate so many bites of junk I became sick and malnourished.
I let my life get upturned by silly men and cookies. Well, I got me into this mess so why can’t I get me out? Can I? I’m rather curious to find out.
He’s just a man. A man that didn’t love me. They are just cookies. Just eats that aren’t good for me.
And thank fucking Gawd I finally got myself into art school.
Silly men and cookies, indeed. What a waste of time. Responsible for the waste of my sophomore year of college. Ice cream was involved, too.
And congrats on getting into art school!
Peanut
on 23/09/2013 at 1:44 am
Thanks Aryanna,
So far it’s been really exciting!
Lucky_Charms
on 22/09/2013 at 2:45 pm
Peanut, all I can say is Wow!
I got myself into art school after I divorced my EU ex-husband. I was 29 years old and a single mother. I was the oldest person in my class, older than some of my teachers. I graduated Deans List. You will too. The fact that you have the guts to become an artist tells me a lot. It’s not an easy life. It IS a satisfying one. You may not know it, but you have already got yourself out of the mess and are on your way. I only wish I had this blog to educate me, years ago. After my divorce, I got married to another EUM and after I was widowed, got into a relationshit w/ yet another EUM. Thankfully we only lived together for 4 months. I broke up with him over 10 months ago and went NC. Like you, I am rebuilding my life. I am totally paranoid about meeting any man ever. Don’t know if I’ll ever date again. The best part is that neither you, nor I will ever be with another assclown again, because now we know more about ourselves and more about them. So Peanut, the best is yet to come! Art school is a magical experience you will love. It sucks that we all had to learn these hard lessons but now we are wiser. I am really thankful for that.
Peanut
on 23/09/2013 at 1:51 am
Lucky_Charms,
I turn twenty-nine this November and I might not be the oldest, but I am certainly one of the older ones in the class. But I don’t care because I enjoy it. I mean it’s a lot of hard work and the sheer endurance I’ve had to cultivate to be able to draw three hours on end has been challenging but so worth it!
Yeah, I don’t really care too too much if I date again at the moment. My dog (though she is being a bit of a shit lately) and the arts are my passionate loves. Okay maybe just the arts, though I do love my animal, I don’t know if I’d go as far to describe it as passionately.
I don’t envision me going down Ass Clown Road again, but sure, that fear is always there.
I’m not ready to date and even if I was I have no clue as to who, as I don’t get out much. So for now I am with me and that is okay.
The house-hunting analogy is genius. Until you see it in person, you just don’t know if it has the potential to be a match.
REAL attraction that determines if you are truly on the same page often doesn’t show up immediately. When you first meet someone, or see an online profile, you simply don’t know enough about them to determine if you’re compatible. If you get too excited, you’re just enjoying the aircastles you’ve built up, based on a few superficial qualities that say very little about him as a person.
We tend to think of attraction as hard-wired, but it really isn’t (check out some of Dan Ariely’s work). Studies have shown that attraction tends to grown between people who know each other (this is why all of my friends have become exceptionally good-looking over time!), and that it is in fact, quite malleable.
It’s really not an either/or- date attractive AC’s or repulsive good guys. There are plenty of attractive good guys out there, but when our attraction triggers are wonky, we usually overlook them as boring, or too average, or we just don’t see them at all while our eyes zero in on AC’s without even thinking about it.
Most happy couples I know are quite comparable in looks. Whether you’re male or female, it doesn’t make sense to pine after people significantly better-looking than you are. While these looks mis-matches can happen, they’re unusual enough that they stand out, and the less attractive partner usually has some other quality (like money or talent) to equal things out in other ways.
It can be hard to make a shift in your tastes if you feel you have a “type,” but if you keep an open mind and just take the time to get to know a variety of people, you might be surprised at who ends up floating your boat.
And, there’s nothing wrong with realizing that attraction just isn’t going to happen after a while. Just don’t write off anyone right away because you don’t feel butterflies. Those can develop over time.
noquay
on 22/09/2013 at 4:11 pm
Yep, we cannot assume anything about anyone without putting in the time to let them reveal themselves. I have had colleagues who were the absolute best in their fields who are completely unable to relate to others, extremely attractive men who are wonderful men (my ex husband) and some skating on their looks (the AC). Also unattractive men aren’t always kind folks; I have encountered some that were very vicious people. Nats house analogy really resonates in this town. We have a lot of old housing that is totally unsuitable for the region. Most here think that giving them a good paint job, cleaning up the yard is OK when what the damn thing needs uh s a new foundation, wiring, removal of rotten wood etc. Some places have just been allowed to fall apart with no attempt to pretty them up. They are what they are. My house is very weird to the point of folks stopping on the road and photographing it. It’s weird, the neighbors are atrocious, but it’s solid and well built, airy, full of light. Previous commenters are spot on; take time to know someone, don’t force attraction that ain’t there, make no assumptions, walk away if needed. This is why I bailed out of the last on line site. For one, I do not photograph well so I am constantly approached by the seemingly desperate and no matter what happens, I will always be someone who values the intellectual, the passionate, the doer. I worked hard to drag myself away from a family culture of anti educational, middle class wannabe (but actually often impoverished) lives to the point that I will never be dragged back into those values again which seem to be the same values espoused by a lot of guys on line, at least in this region. They want the high income, exotic, fit chick, her lifestyle, while they are barely employed, not big on self improvement, really into TV and bar life themselves. As Peanut says, dating should be fun, uplifting, and it simply has not been, at least on line. It’s great when the racers are here and you can meet guys that share some of your values IRL, but since they are from far away, there’s no guarantee that they don’t have wives or girlfriends back home. Noquay is gonna have to drive many miles in search of events where someone compatible may be, either that or make do until retirement.
ladybug
on 22/09/2013 at 4:26 pm
Thank you! I loved this one. It’s so true, it’s easy to mistake what other people might think of a new potential relationship because of how (1)you think you look with this person (2)you think you know how other people think about people. I learned I judge other people and relationships too! But it’s not based on looks, it’s based on how happy they look together and then i ponder how they are making things work. By that I mean, outings, dreams and hobbies, and lifestyle choices. It’s a different landscape of being single and not, and how you entertain yourself. Maybe! I am dating someone who is away on a trip for a week. We just started so I’m still adjusting, in the meantime a really gorgeous guy asked me for a drink (as friends) and I couldn’t help but go on a mind loop of what-ifs. He’s got a lot of qualities I like I barely know him. And while looping in all kids of guilty feelings, I found out he’s just kind of flaky. Didn’t get back to me on something and kind of hurt my feelings. Now I am reading this article, and it’s great!!! Thank you.
Natasha
on 22/09/2013 at 4:52 pm
I could give you an entire PowerPoint presentation on looks-related things I have personally been rejected for. In no particular order:
-Too short
-Too thin (this happened after I’d had a wretched case of the flu for two weeks…he should have waited three days, because I believe in the restorative qualities of bacon and cheese)
-Possessor of breast implants
-Not brunette
I could go on. Don’t be like one of these guys that I run into three years later and they are still single, waiting for the entire Victoria’s Secret crew to show up. We’re all going to get older and less attractive and character is going to be what’s left!
Peanut
on 23/09/2013 at 1:56 am
I would NEVER want to look like a Victoria’s Secret Model, (though I do love their undies) because then I would just look like every other Victoria’s Secret Model and I’d have to be a naked float in that silly parade they have every year.
Yana
on 22/09/2013 at 5:18 pm
“And if one loves me for my judgement, memory, he does not love me, for I can lose these qualities without losing myself. Where, then, is this Ego, if it be neither in the body nor in the soul? And how love the body or the soul, except for these qualities which do not constitute me, since they are perishable? For it is impossible and would be unjust to love the soul of a person in the abstract and whatever qualities might be therein. We never, then, love a person, but only qualities.
Let us, then, jeer no more at those who are honoured on account of rank and office; for we love a person only on account of borrowed qualities.”- Blaise Pascal
Awesome quote.
Able
on 22/09/2013 at 11:31 pm
8 wks post-break/up today.
The small apartment has some appeal. I realized it’s only slightly larger than Thoreau’s cabin. And it’s surrounded by woods on two sides. It had me thinking about simplifying my life. I could move out to the woods and chill for a while all by myself. It’d be part of a self-improvement project. Right now, the ex and I live within a few city blocks of each other. Stressful most of the time.
Pauline
on 23/09/2013 at 12:13 am
We like what we like and I’m not so sure it’s all superficial. I have been out with guys that are tall dark and handsome, shorter guys with glasses and no great body, guys of all shapes and sizes, dumb and really smart and it has all boiled down to one thing … How attracted to each other we were.
If I don’t have at least some spark of ‘hey, you seem really nice’ it won’t matter if he looks like Daniel Craig (drool), I can be friends, go out and have a great time but that’s all. I did meet a nice guy about 3 years ago, the attraction was there initially but as I got to know him I realised that it wasn’t going to work out as there were basic incompatibilities between us. My family and friends thought I was crazy for letting him go and in some ways I think they were right, but, I didn’t love him and he deserved someone who does.
It’s my big hook and one that I find hard to get past … Chasing that feeling! The EUM/AC I subsequently got involved with was a huge instant attraction, yeah, the ones you should run away from as fast as you can.
I’ve made mistakes and I am learning. I’m in a much better place now, happier with myself and more content with my life.
Blue
on 23/09/2013 at 11:10 am
I am definitely guilty of thinking that if a guy has A, B and C, THEN he must be good. I was dating a guy and we broke up yesterday, we weren’t officially together but were sleeping together and he told me that he was “in love with me”. However, we were fighting so much, as we both are quite opinionated and it was getting to the stage where, yeah, we fancied each other but we just didn’t get along most of the time. I am in the middle of finishing my degree, and after one of our fights right before my finals he decided that he would ignore me pretty much for four weeks. When he eventually came around after me pleading with him and him almost losing me we decided to meet again,and of course another fight. I let my resentment towards him bubble, because he wasn’t acknowledging how I felt about his disappearance. I’m ashamed of how I acted. This situation made me depressed too, in the last two months I have not cried as much, I’m not normally a crier. But complains I cry all the time and says he wants a normal person, and asked me to leave his house, it’s over. I am a “normal” person, whatever that is, but feel a part of me has been lost to this mess.
Anyway, he’s quite ambitious, and I admire him because he managed to turn his life around and is now on the verge of becoming quite successful. We come from similar backgrounds. So I thought that this might translate into him being a good guy, someone who might work hard for us. But it didn’t work out that way, he doesn’t really care about me, just about his work. After I left his house yesterday, I almost got my handbag robbed by a gang, luckily I managed to get it back but got hurt a little during the altercation. I’m just in shock. I contacted him right away as I was only after leaving his house. He text back was I OK but that was it pretty much, and just, I am left heartbroken with the realisation that he never cared about me at least enough to offer help. I guess the lesson is, just because someone cares about one aspect of their lives, doesn’t translate into them caring about other aspects.
Lara
on 23/09/2013 at 2:42 pm
Blue,
I know the feeling of heartbreak when you realize that the person you thought cared about you, and you cared so much about, did not give a toss about your life being in danger, or you being hurt or in emotional/physical pain, etc. I would express my sympathies and condolences, or offer help and support even to total strangers if confronted with such situations, and would expect others to do the same, but some people, despite knowing you well enough (well, if he’s putting his penis into you….), don’t give a toss about you or anyone else. All they care about is what they are getting out of the “relationship” and once the returns no longer outweigh the “costs”, they will bail. These people are so cold-hearted and calculating, it’s scary. My ex was like this. I was once telling him about an issue, and he cut me off entirely and told me he had found out that his friend from work had been diagnosed with cancer (it turns out he wasn’t close to the guy unlike what he claimed initially, and was jealous of and started badmouthing eventually, a few weeks before break-up with me); i stopped talking about what I was saying, and tried to make him feel better, and this continued for a few days, where I was giving him a lot of support and comforting him, etc. It was all part of his “feel sorry for me” “give me attention” routine, it turns out, since he was never close to that guy, and actually started badmouthing him only a few months later..
In contrast, I told him that my dad had been diagnosed with cancer, and he didn’t express his support nor say he was sorry to hear it, if I was ok, if I needed to talk about it, etc. He didn’t even ask me any questions, or say anything at all. He just avoided the issue completely. And of course no moral support, etc. Months later, my uncle passed away, and I told him about it — and the only thing he asked me: “you weren’t that close to him anyway, right?” Then he changed the topic and started bitching about how, in Turkey, where he worked, the women would not pay attention to him and wouldn’t talk to him. It was an aha moment for me. Such an eye-opener. I was so hearbroken, but it was a moment of clarity, and I just bailed emotionally on the relationship (well, for the most part) though I did not break up with him — he eventually did because he “couldn’t take it anymore” and “it’s too much work.” If it was too much work without him even putting in any work….. holy cow, this guy was just expecting me to be his unpaid prostitute then! I still can’t get over the fact that I was duped for a year, by someone who didn’t give a toss about whether or not my dad or uncle died, and we’re not even talking here about death of a friend but a relative.
If I ever told him I was sick, he would ignore it completely. Meanwhile, when he got a cold, I took care of him for over a week, mothered him basically, nursed him back to health. And not a thank you in return. I feel so used. And this is a guy who kept claiming he was a gentleman and that he believed in chivalry. LOL!
Allison
on 26/09/2013 at 3:39 pm
Lara,
You weren’t “duped,” you simply failed to heed the red flags.- no judgement, most of us have been there. If you do not recognize your own complicity in this, you will continue to repeat the behavior.
noquay
on 23/09/2013 at 1:11 pm
Pauline
I agree, a lot of the “superficial” has a deep evolutionary basis and now, a deep social basis. My preference for fit men certainly comes from dealing with my unhealthy, obese family; I know too well where that path goes. If someone is not really ambitious, you will be taking up the slack. Keep in mind that at my age, we are talking about dudes in their 60s and for whom failure has pretty much become a way of life. Folks with huge discrepancies in intellectual level won’t have much, if anything to talk about. Sexual incompatibility is a big issue unless you intend to stay celibate.
Blue
This dude is an unfeeling, cold, self absorbed douche. WTF! Someone gets attacked and all you get is a damned text?! BTW, bear spray is a chicks best friend, wouldn’t go into any urban area without it.
Blue
on 23/09/2013 at 1:58 pm
Thanks. I’m not sure if bear spray is legal in my country. I am lucky this gang didn’t have weapons, I was upset already and once I realised they had stolen my bag, I charged after them and yanked it back lol. I didn’t think of the risks, I was so preoccupied. I did get my bag back though.
He was working from home which is probably why he felt a text was sufficient. Still. Do something, anything for a woman you had sex with the night before, who you were claiming you were in love with the week before. I haven’t heard from him since, he doesn’t care how I feel or how I am coping. I am trying not to let it get to me because my thesis is due next week and I have to keep it together. But it’s hard, am just gutted.
Lara
on 23/09/2013 at 5:53 pm
Blue,
“He was working from home which is probably why he felt a text was sufficient.”
I am not sure why working from home affects his ability / willingness to call you?!?! Sorry, I don’t get it , and I think you are sorta making excuses for him. On the contrary, I would think that if he’s home, he’d be more free to talk to you on the phone?!? Nothing short of him being involved in an accident or being on the verge of dying, justifies that sort of reaction (just texting you) by him…
noquay
on 23/09/2013 at 1:19 pm
Snowboard
Yep, if you’re getting red flags from the get go, bail ASAP, they don’t go away. A red flag dude I dated for a second time turned into a stalker, ewwww! Overall, I would say if you feel nothing after date 2, it ain’t gonna happen. In my case, since dating OK involves driving long distances, serious expense, effs up the environment, etc, I tend to bail pretty fast if I am not feeling it.
Little Star
on 23/09/2013 at 5:03 pm
Thanks Natalie for another useful post, love it! I am not a shallow person, but for me is very important what person does for living…I met this new guy, he is good looking, tall, but…he is Funeral Director and it’s put me off somehow! Would you date him girls?
Mymble
on 23/09/2013 at 8:19 pm
Little star
It’s no biggie, do whatever feels right to you. You’re not in the last chance saloon, another guy will be along soon.
You made me laugh though …I think I might feel a little creeped out. But on the positive side, his business is recession proof!
Rosie
on 23/09/2013 at 8:54 pm
Little Star- I’d give him a chance, would want to know how he got into that field & why he stays. What does he do in his spare time? What kind of sense of humor does he have? How does he think? Just get to know him a little bit, Little Star, & go from there.
Lilia
on 24/09/2013 at 1:18 am
Little Star,
I´d just let him unfold, as Natalie says. It does sound a bit creepy, but who says creepy people can´t be wonderful partners? Think Gomez and Morticia Addams…
Just kidding, of course, but I don´t think it´ll be a big deal once you get to know him more.
Little Star
on 24/09/2013 at 8:52 am
Mymble, Rosie and Lilia THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR RESPONSES! It’s mean a lot to me.
He is nice guy, has a dry sense of humor and I was curious myself why he decided to apply for this position…He lost his job and was desperate (he has a mortgage to pay) and now he even enjoying his job, HOW CREEPY! I asked him: “How can you enjoy dealing with dead people and their upset relatives?” He said: “At least I can be helpful in this difficult times!” I do not know girls, but more I think about it, more I want to let him go:( He does not have that much interests and not that talkative to be honest…I probably meet him one more time and see if his job is still a big issue:)
Thanks again xxx
Furry White Dogs
on 25/09/2013 at 3:06 am
I’ve applied a couple of times over the years for Funeral Director jobs and the selection process is quite demanding.
I don’t find it all creepy because the job is really about the living and helping them deal with their loss.I guess it helps that I studied human biology at Uni and had to deal with cadavers etc and so the dead person aspect isn’t as confronting.
So yes I would definitely date a guy who is a funeral director. I have positive associations with this job because I’ve seen how kind and caring and compassionate they can be (it’s becoming much more a women’s job). I’ve been a teacher and you’d be amazed how many people get put off by people who are teachers because of their negative associations from school.
At the end of the day I am not my job and neither is this person. Any job can have positive and negative aspects to it. I’d think twice about dating a band member or stockbroker.
What really counts is the BR basics; do you have the same values, is he decent & respectful, do you get along, have some common ground?
To me he sounds pragmatic, responsible and caring, and you said he is nice, has a dry sense of humour, is good looking and tall. Ticking a bunch of my boxes on paper! (if he was the right age and lived in my city in Aus I’d be asking for his number!)
He may turn out to be EU or AC or just plain totally boring; only time can tell, but it won’t be his job that determines these things, it will be his character.
Snowboard
on 25/09/2013 at 3:37 pm
I’m with Furry White Dogs!! I say, give him a chance!
Little Star
on 25/09/2013 at 8:04 pm
Furry and Snowboard, thank you for your comments, I have to agree with you that it just his job, and if he even enjoying what he does who I am to judge?! But somehow I find this a bit put off…I will definitely give him a chance, I am meeting him this weekend.
content
on 23/09/2013 at 8:18 pm
Hello this is tired ,I’ve changed my name .I’m learning to be content and its great .Man or no man im feeling the beginnings of being content .Oh I’ve made some bloopers since the arse clown.Your can’t go by appearance it’s the actions.Always go by the actions never the appearance or words .At the moment no one in my life or on horizon and I’m happy about that . Family and a good set of friends . Do you know how I know I’m healing I sing along stupid but it reflects my inside feeling . I started to do things I used to do in my spare time ,where I used to dwell .I don’tidwell anymore . I still think from time to time about arse clown and it gets me angry but I know how to deal and let it go .Nat was right you have to let people unfold 🙂
Magnolia
on 24/09/2013 at 5:21 am
Content! Congrats on the name change …
Antsy
on 25/09/2013 at 3:41 am
It’s the old saw. You can’t judge the book by its cover.
I don’t believe going after men simply because they’re kind, considerate and into you if you can’t imagine ever having a romantic interest in them. For one thing, it’s playing way too safe unnecessarily. You’re assuming that the guy you’re not physically attracted to won’t break your heart. Ha. I went out with a guy I wasn’t into, but after awhile I started getting feelings for him and thought, hmm, maybe I could become attracted to him. He ended up treating me badly and dumping me. And get this – I found out he was already married to a woman who was 10 times hotter than me. His ego was huge and I made it worse. I can’t say my heart was broken, but time was wasted.
As someone who had experienced childhood sexual abuse at the hands of a grandfather (ew), being attracted to someone I have sex with is EXTREMELY important to me. Consent is highly important. If I start feeling it’s becoming a duty, then I start to feeling it’s going into non-consensual territory. I don’t ever want to feel like I have to turn my head away, hold my breath or imagine myself to be with someone I’d prefer.
Having said that, what I find attractive might be very different for someone else. Attraction is a starting point, not an end point. There’s a range of looks that I find attractive, and those that repel me. I cannot go out with a man who repels me physically even if he’s the sweetest guy on earth. Does it mean that I will only date attractive guys no matter how crappy they are to me? No. It just means that I have to wait longer to find a man who checks off most of the boxes on my list.
If you do get physical with a man you’re physically attracted to as well as emotionally, it will be a duty and it’s likely you will avoid being intimate with him. That wastes his time that he could’ve spent with a woman who truly wants him.
Hope
on 06/10/2013 at 2:23 pm
I was in a relationship for a year with my ex-girlfriend. We just broke up almost two months ago but in reality we were over before we began. I had never been attracted to a woman before until I met her and I pursued her only to be told that I wasn’t her type. It was constant rejection not to mention she had just broken up with the perfect woman according to her. We continued to be friends and as soon as I decided that I wouldn’t pursue her anymore she wanted me and all the attention and love I gave her. I loved and cared her back into a better place after her breakup. She wasn’t attracted to me physically. We stopped having sex after four months into the relationship. She wanted me to be something I wasn’t. She wanted a model who wore sexy underwear. I have always had low self-esteem but being with her for a year totally did a job on me. I have never been in a relationship that was so mentally and verbally abusive. My point is she didn’t like the way I looked and I have never been told I was unattractive just the opposite. My body type was a problem for her I was constantly made to feel fat. Nothing was good enough. From the top of my head to my feet were all wrong. My conduct was wrong, my friends, my daughter. There was nothing except serve her breakfast in bed and listen to her talk about herself basically be a doormat was good enough. She still wanted to remain friends even after she told me she didn’t want to be in a relationship. I didn’t want to be friends. I needed to get over her and move on. She didn’t want me. She wanted a companion. A dog. I played that part for a year hoping that she would see the good in me. The value of her loving me but in reality I needed to love me more than I loved her. I needed to get away from her. We COULD NOT ever be friends. She didn’t deserve e my love and definitely not my friendship. She is a narcissist. I found that out later. Day by day I’m putting myself back together. Our last encounter was awful. A lot was said and it wasn’t nice but it needed to be said because I needed to be done with her and that wouldn’t have happened if I pretended that I was ok with her treatment of me. She wanted me to stick around until she found somebody else and where would that leave me? Nowhere. As days go on I’m getting stronger. It’s a work in progress but I hope to being back to myself in hopefully another month. Good luck to everyone going through the struggle. Smooches
I’ve been running Baggage Reclaim since September 2005, and I’ve spent many thousands of hours writing this labour of love. The site has been ad-free the entire time, and it costs hundreds of pounds a month to run it on my own. If what I share here has helped you and you’re in a position to do so, I would love if you could make a donation. Your support is so very much appreciated! Thank you.
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Great follow-up to the last article. It’s not that looks aren’t nice, that status isn’t nice: you wouldn’t buy a house that was absolutely run-down or in a dangerous neighbourhood and expect to live comfortably there; it’s not superficial to care somewhat about a person’s self-upkeep and their lifestyle.
I just sent an email to ask out a person at work who I am interested in. I went back to this article to vet myself:
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/dealing-with-asking-guys-out-and-no-you-dont-need-to-do-it-because-you-think-hes-shy/
My interest stirred up a few old tendencies: fantasizing, imagining him to have good characteristics I have no idea that he has; and then swinging to devaluing, assuming him to have characteristics I want no part of, all based on a couple interactions. These habits seem almost funny, now.
In any case, *by appearance* I can’t say this person is anything special. He’s got a regular job and seems pretty normal. Even appearance-wise he’s pretty average. But I have felt my own spark of interest each time we have run into each other so I figure, what the heck. I can handle getting turned down, or him not being what I fantasized about. Who knows if character-wise he might be compatible – how else can I find out?
I was thinking after the last post (after my folks let me down regarding contacting me to be present for my sister’s labour, and then yesterday I dropped the ball in a big way at work, and it was the same mess of awful feelings) about how I keep thinking I want someone with a certain kind of job – I meditated on the feeling I assume I’ll have with such a person – and realized what I want is to know that I’m with someone responsible. I chose the last AC because he had investments, a big management job and tons of people reporting to him – I thought that meant he was responsible. So wrong.
It takes time to learn if someone is truly responsible. Appearances mean little. If I were to go by those, every doctor that I go to should be trusted, – they must care and be responsible, right, they’re doctors? But no, the ones in the schmanciest offices, I’ve found, have been the ones that make me feel like they’re paying for their Ferraris off of my suffering.
This article is full of truth.
I tell my 18 year old son repeatedly that the heart and character of a girl is what really matters. This is the eternal factor, while looks are temporary.
Reminds me of classic Judge Judy saying, “Beauty fades, dumb is forever.”!! I can personally attest that, “Handsome is nice to look at for ten minutes, assclownery is forever.”
The painful side of superficiality is when THEY are the superficial assholes.
The EX-Asshole is a superficial bastard. When he overlapped (read: cheated)on me to be with the red head he said the following. Quote ” ’cause she is stunningly beautiful and flaming red hair make me want to get lost in it. Plus she work with me more height-wise”. What he did not say but implied was “oh! By the way she’s white too…”
I’m 5’4″, 125lbs, brown hair, light skinned half east Indian/English/Dutch but not white. I am in no way ugly but he made me feel like shit.
Today I came to the realization that there is no such thing as karma. I don’t believe in it anymore. Sometime bad people do bad things and get to live happy lives. we just need to suck it up. So be it….
Confused123,
I´m not sure about the karma thing. I just found out the uber narc lying harem king EUM who got me here unexpectedly lost his job a while ago. And that must´ve hurt his ego way more than he hurt my self-esteem. I find I start grinning whenever I imagine him being told to get his things and leave his office.
Confused123
I couldn’t agree more.
I don’t believe in Karma either the ex AC is just going about life as though what happened at the end of relationship didn’t happen and had no effect upon his life.
Where is his suffering and just desserts?
Makes me have some understanding towards those who go out and seek revenge.
Interesting points here.
On the flip side, I always went for the out-of-my-league bad boys who I never ended up talking to or have more than one-sided fantasy relationships with.
Then I fell for a super-nice (seemingly) quiet, below-average in looks, nerdy guy when he kept chasing me and kept saying all the right things. In the end, I liked the idea of ME being out of reach for him.
I told myself he should be grateful to have me in his life, but I also began to see that we were equal in terms of intelligence, interests etc. That’s when the superficial bubble burst.
It didn’t matter that I was “too pretty” for him because he turned out to be a cheating AC. In this case, my fault lay at taken the sub-level superficial aesthetics and assuming that this meant that he HAD to respect me and keep my trust.
It is easy to fall for perfection, but I realised that it is just as easy to fall for imperfection because you believe that it would result in a purer character – after all, if he doesn’t have the looks, how could he also NOT have the personality? I got my answer: very easily.
JustHer:
I had a similar experience, and it made me realise how tricky this whole appearences-business can be.
After some bad experiences with good-looking guys (who were more in love with the mirror than with me) I got involved with a guy I´d always found nice but wasn´t physically attracted to. He is plain ugly – and no, there´s no way you can be subjective about it. Think Boris Karloff at his creepiest mixed with an Easter Island moais and one long eyebrow. For years I had thought “if only he´d look different, he´d be such a great boyfriend”. Until I started thinking that maybe he was a great boyfriend precisely because he wasn´t handsome. That he must have a wonderful, reliable, sweet character underneath (and he was kind to me, before we became romantically involved).
Which is the same as being blinded by appearances, only I was adscribing positive characteristics to his unattractive looks.
So. I was very, very mistaken. He ended up being the worst narcissist EUM I´ve ever met. None of my previous experiences had brought me so much suffering and insecurity. Sometimes I wonder if I got so hurt because I was fooled for so long by his unattractive looks and meek manner. With the popular, handsome guys I´m more cautious and I don´t take them all that seriously. Which is just as unfair as trusting an unattractive guy just because of how he looks.
Lilia, so, so true!
I justified all his looks away by saying that he MUST be an incredible and compassionate person underneath. And I was completely lost under his unattractive looks – how could he cheat when he had such a good thing going with me?
I wasn’t at all cautious with him and hence missed all the red flags – a lesson in life I guess now!
I still see him around and often think “was I drunk the whole relationship!?” Because he looks weirder, but uglier than his outside is his inside.
Never again falling for that trap!
Lilia, wow, you are so correct! Funny enough good looking guys more respected me and loved me:) My last two ex ACs were not that good looking, and somehow I thought they would be happy to have me as a girlfriend and appreciate me more! NO, it was not the case…so it is hard to know where we can win or lose:(
Great post! I agree with this totally because fortunately & unfortunately for me – men usually find me attractive. But what comes with this is a lot of unwanted attention, jealousies of insecure females & ideals placed on me that are not my character.
I’m a sound, grounded, compassionate spirit & I know it. I’m modest, try to stay humble, a person of my word, honor morals, values and my upbringing. I look for the good in all living things. I try with effort to do my best daily. I have excelled personally & professionally. I’m a good mom, sister, daughter, aunt & friend. I know my worth.
All of this & I’m still single. Too many people are living superficially and meeting someone compatible is like a chance meeting. I have given up on the idea but I refuse to settle. For all the men who have pursued me just to be shocked by my character – either find me to be something like a phenomenon & leave because they deem themselves “not worthy” -or – attempt to continue pursuit just to become resentful after awhile & go for “easier” targets.
I’ll just continue to embrace & accept my uniqueness while offering this to everyone I meet. However, I will not fall trap to NMs or EUMs no more. I’m grateful for my opportunity to catch the attention of others but I will not let it define me! & I won’t let others treat me based on how I look. Good or bad.
I looked at an apartment this morning. The take away was, great location, cool landlord, easy commute. But small space and alittle pricey for it. I thought, if money were no object, would I take it? And the answer was a suprisingly easy no. I would be cramped in the space. So, what’s the equivalent to relationships? The “if money were no object” question? I guess it’d have to be, if I weren’t afraid of getting my heart broken again, would I try? Or, just shorten it, if there was no fear.
Is that what it’s really all about? I wonder. I have said a few times, I’m afraid of making another poor decision. So, I hesitate, then my choices narrow as the window closes.
Or is that just negative thinking?
Dunno… any ideas? (btw this is the first time I’ve posted using a full keyboard instead of my phone.)
Able,
The keyboard makes all the difference doesn’t it.
Ummm, it’s one apartment that you don’t like or maybe many, but nonetheless two things come to mind:
1) There is no such thing as perfect in any worldly realm.
2) You will always be missing out on something. That’s called choosing. We commit to something and miss out on the other unchosen opportunities. It’s not a bad thing; it’s reality.
If you’re framing heartbreak around dating, you are not ready to date. Dating healthily is fun optimistic, sometimes funny, and uplifting. Yes, you will have disappointments, but they help us grow, find out who we are and pave the way for immense gratitude when we do find someone with whom we are able to cultivate a mutual, worthwhile experience.
As for the apartment, I don’t know. I love small spaces, and except for a tiny bed, hate furniture.
Im relieved to say the least at hearing other peoples comments as it helps me realise im not the only one struggling with this issue.
My first ever school boyfriend who i fancied broke my heart and it seems like since then; i can’t trust being the one who likes more. This has led to a situation where a guy who liked me (a good, honest, lovely guy) asked me out and we dated for over 7 years; but i didnt fancy him and struggled to be intimate with him for this reason. I ended up calling it off even though from the outside i had everything; simply because i could no longer live with the imbalance.
Since then i have met someone who is basically the same guy again; great lovely guy; good friends etc. he treats me like a queen and i know we could have some great foundations in a relationship BUT the imbalance is there! Im not attracted to him but i am to how me makes me feel and its taken a lot of strength to say NO to going out with this chap and essentially repeating previous mistakes.
However i now find myself in a boat where i think im only ever going to end up in a relationship just the same; beause im too scared to go into anything different. Whilst getting into a relationship where they love more and look after me isnt a bad thing; its the sacrifice of attraction that makes me so sad. I’ve never felt attracted to anyone i’ve been intimate with and ive always had to force nyself to be intimate in the relationship
Should that really be the trade-off? It feels so disingenuous for something that should feel honest.
Mellyphant…I worry about the same thing…since finding Baggage Reclaim I have looked back on all the men I have ever been passionately attracted to…and they have all been emotionally unavailable assclowns. I have never been attracted to anyone who shows me they care about me, and I would like to change that, hopefully by finding myself worthy of being cared about.
Wow! This post really hit home for me. I have been off of the dating sites now for about a year. As
I read over this post I SO realized that I had been judging people as if they were a house.
It’s also been just over a year that I have had n/c with my EUM.
If he were a house Natalie he would have to be CONDEMNED! Great looks on the outside, severely
damaged on the inside!
This site has been a blessing in my life and I
thank you Natalie!
Mellyphant,
I don’t think forcing yourself to be intimate sounds pleasant, it sounds like hell. Although the inside is what matters, you have to have that attraction. Being attracted to someone also doesn’t mean they are attractive to everyone. Everyone has their own taste. I personally, would rather be alone than be with someone I have to force kissing just to be with a guy that worships me. That just sounds miserable to me. I have many friends that have done this, and they were miserable and so unhappy. So to answer your question, no I don’t think that’s normal. You deserve to feel happy and not be with someone just to have someone. Hold out for someone you truly feel that connection with. It’ll be worth it, trust me 😉
Oh my Dear Lord Natalie, you have been spying on me again! The picture even looks like me, and yes, I am worried my new target man is a little too short.
Shame on me! He is a bit tubby too. But, he seems decent and trustworthy, hardworking and honest.
He can take it when people rib him a little, and seems interested in what others have to say.
I keep veering between “going for it” and thinking I should stay back because I might end up hurting him. Why am I making everything such a drama? I am not fantasising like I normally do, which is good, but am I just using him as some kind of distraction?
How do we know? I am trying so hard to use all my BR education and get it right but I guess sometimes you have to accept that your control over the outcome is limited and you are always going to be taking a chance in some way?
Gurl, you and I are in the same place, but I am way worse than you. I’m seeing the guy again…the one I wasn’t sure about. I veer wildly between thinking he’s got 4 legs and then thinking he’s got none. He checks so many boxes it’s like dating a giant woodpecker. On the other hand I WANT TO RUN AWAY. It has been 8 months now, if you don’t count the couple of weeks we spent apart after I freaked out and dumped him. Then like the totally fucking EU unit that I am, I asked him if he would mind being my FWB while I really worked out what I want. He fucking agreed. Then I said I was happy for it to be back on. I have no idea what I am doing.
I totally suck at this. Nat should expel me.
Oh Ms D you made me laugh out loud as usual.
I am sure Nat would never expel you.
I wonder if we are just overthinking things? I don’t think I would respect a man who was willing to be messed about by me like you describe. Did you really want him to tell you to go to hell and “man up” a bit?
With my guy, I think I have to listen to my gut. It is telling me that I would be using him as a passing time candidate. But of course I have no idea what he wants, or even that he wants me, although I think he does. GAH!!!!!!
Ms D. I’ve followed your posts, and no, most everyone here has been back and forth with the one that brought them here. One poster who had a baby with her ex slept with him again this past summer after a lot of BR. Another has sought campaign support from the MM who brought her here. Another is seeing the ex boyfriend who can’t commit. In
some way we’re probably all on the chopping block for expulsion.
But having followed your wit and insight, I’d like to offer this: I think perhaps you do know what you are doing, and that is why you have come back to us.
Love the illustration. It is wise to not make snap judgments. But I’ve always wondered about what women think of men with very small penises. I was with a “tiny” guy for 18 months. We connected on so many levels and I did not want to be superficial, but still, after a lot of experimenting, I found the sex to be quite bad. I broke it off, but did not tell him why. At first I felt like the shallowest human being alive, but later I accepted the fact that no one is perfect- meaning not all of us are capable of overlooking ALL superficial things.
Singles are ALWAYS advise by couples not to be to shallow because when they met their spouse… he/she was not what they had imagine. But, most of the time the person they ended up with was not some uber hottie.. just another regular person who was about as attractive as they were.
When I first started dating… I only wanted the hot guys.. and of course that is a flawed strategy. But another flawed strategy is to continue to give guys a chance whom you have zero attraction after 2,3, 5 dates or even 2,3, 5 months.
I think it’s ok to be slightly superficial. I became a happier person when I accepted this about myself. And a happier me meant I was a more attractive person. I’m currently with a decent guy whom I’m happy with. He’s no Brad-Pitt-in-his-prime, but he’s not a short, pot bellied guy twice my age either. It’s not a crime to hold out for some one whom you’re actually ATTRACTED to. Realistically, you can’t entirely separate a person from their looks.
Oh, Janine, I LOVED this.
Though oddly enough, I don’t think Brad Pitt in his prime was that great. I don’t know…slap some thick glasses on him, trim the hair and part it a bit to the side, and then throw a cardigan on him, some tight slacks, shiny shoes, a tie and we have a match!
Actually I think I just made him gay.
People keep telling me I am attracted to gay men. But really I like cultured, clean cut, gentile, thoughtful, graceful, delicate, stylish and intelligent men. I don’t think a guy has to be gay to be those things or vice versa. Oh, well, just another type to shed.
See, this is the superficial me coming out! So many of us have it in there. Somewhere.
And here’s a secret: When I think about dating, there is a thought in the back of my mind that goes as such: “Please, God, don’t let him have a small penis, please, God, don’t let it be the small penis guy…” I know terrible, right. But, geez, I haven’t had sex in nearly a decade, I feel I deserve at least average to work with. Geez, I’m turning as red as radish. But it’s true.
Maybe there’s some small penised guy out there going, “Please don’t let her have big feet, please don’t let her have big feet” (I have disproportionately large feet) and we’ll end up together. But, yet I’d be getting the shite end of the deal as you don’t have sex with your feet. At least I’m pretty sure 99% of the population doesn’t.
But if I have an adequate vagina, it isn’t wrong to want a sufficient penis. There I said it.
For now I’ll just keep the mantra as follows: I just want a warm, loving man with whom I share the same values with who is attracted to me and I him in a mutually fulfilling relationship based on love, care, trust and respect.
“But if I have an adequate vagina, it isn’t wrong to want a sufficient penis. There I said it.”
Hilarious! Good for you. I’ve had the small penis dilemma with a couple of guys too, complemented in both cases by insufficient rigidity. While size isn’t everything, it is in fact something. I like to know the guy’s actually in.
I feel we have to be very careful about this kind of thing. Many of us feel that we have been treated like blow up dolls, and I wouldn’t want to stray into that kind of AC territory.
If it was men going on about wanting a tight vagina, (as opposed to a cavernous childbirthy one),- and sometimes they do- I for one would find that really offensive and demeaning. It’s not really any better when women do the same thing.
I don’t think the two are quite the same. I don’t believe there is any such thing as a vagina that’s too stretched out to be capable of giving pleasure — it’s just an excuse men use for why they should be able to have sex with virgin teenagers. And a penis that doesn’t fit me will fit someone else.
Mymble, I agree with you. Going about shouting that a small penis will not do for me is extremely offensive and really AC territory. A lot of men do actually claim that they want a tight vagina and a loose one is just rubbish. I think we should be really careful about judging people’s body parts which they cannot change. Just think about how BAD it must feel to a guy with a small penis or a woman with a loose vagina. You are effectively saying that they are not good enough because they are physically defective. If you have low self-esteem about ANY part of your body, how does it feel like when you hear others saying they would never even consider dating someone with the said “defect”?
Penetrative sex is just a small part of sex after all. Good sex is all about communication, chemistry and the connection you have with the other person (and care, trust and respect of course), and most of all, how you feel about yourself as a man or as a woman.
Of course, a large penis is a plus, but it would never be a deciding factor for me.
Janine
I know what you mean. All other things being equal bigger is better than smaller. But all other things are never equal. As it happens, the best lover I ever had was very small.
Could it be that you are focussing your discontent with the relationship on that one issue? Like being massively irritated by the way someone chews their food and pronounces certain words. It’s an indication that you’re not really happy around them and really anything they do or don’t do will bother you because there’s an underlying problem. I honestly believe that if you had really loved the guy it would have mattered very little, or not at all. Afterall penetrative sex is only one of many interesting bedroom activities! 🙂
Janine,
I don´t think preferring a larger penis is superficial. You say the sex with the small penis was quite bad, well, then things weren´t really working between the two of you, were they? After all, connecting physically is at the core of every romantic relationship, isn´t it? It´s not about having interesting conversations or doing business together or whatever.
I have to mention, though, that I fell madly in love with a guy with a small penis in my 20s. Penetration itself was a bit lame but he was an expert at foreplay and all the rest. I loved sleeping with him because he liked to cuddle and would help me get my bra on when I´d dress the following day.
Just before him, I had been involved with a very tall guy who was gorgeous and had a large penis. But sex with him was terrible, it even hurt sometimes. Exciting as he was to look at, I could not have a decent conversation with him because all he cared about was watching car races on tv. Ironically, he contacted me through Facebook a couple of years ago and would I like to meet him again because he had such fond memories of me. I immediately remembered his huge penis and squirmed. I wondered if it would still hurt to have sex with him (yes, I know, this was before we even saw each other in person again) and decided I didn´t even want to try. I´ve been avoiding him since.
I would love to hear from small penis guy again, though. Of course, as things go, he has no need to go looking for a sweetheart from long ago.
“But another flawed strategy is to continue to give guys a chance whom you have zero attraction after 2,3, 5 dates or even 2,3, 5 months.”
In the last six months, I have gone out with two different guys.
The first one was/is truly lovely, a real gentleman. He took me on very nice (and expensive) dates and we had a blast, talking, laughing, everything. Yet, I felt no attraction for him whatsoever (he is kind of socially awkward and also overweight), and I ended things after three dates. Now we hang out as good friends.
On the second one (about a month ago), I had a strong sexual attraction to the guy but he was waving a ton of glaring red flags from the moment we met (in a bar). As happens with such guys, I got burned badly. I only went on one date with this guy, thinking I was just investigating the situation, as I had question marks, and it seemed worth a shot to look into them. On the date, he actually verbally cleared up all the question marks I had (without me asking – he just did so on his own), and I thought maybe this could be something. We hung out for hours, lots of kissing, laughing, discussing possibly being in a relationship together, etc. At the end of the night he asked if he could see me the next day (it was Wednesday). As a good BR student, I said “let’s wait until Friday,” not wanting to fast forward things. On Friday I received an email from him saying he wasn’t going to go out that night. And then when I went out that night with some friends, guess who I ran into at a bar? Him with a (male) friend. The story gets a little more dramatic but that is the gist. He disappeared.
In any case, I guess I still think I did the right thing by giving both guys (the good one with no chemistry, and the bad one with chemistry) a shot. I think the first 1-3 dates can be used for just investigating those two issues: Am I attracted to him? Does he seem like a reasonably good person with whom there might be relationship potential?
But I would be curious if anyone else on here has a different opinion. Perhaps I shouldn’t have gone on the date with the red-flag guy at all?
My previous boyfriend was 6 feet tall, slightly overweight & stocky, dark hair, dark eyes. He was a very sweet, interesting, nice guy, probably too nice! We had so many interests, even almost the same birthday. So very compatible on paper. But he had the smallest I had ever seen. It was like a little boys. Looked far worse as he was a large built guy. I hate to sound shallow but I think a sexual relationship is important, I have a high sex drive and we hardly ever had sex! It was a disaster, the condom just completely buried him. He wasn’t really experienced now I know why he was a virgin, he lacked confidence. I was always very supportive and understanding but knew it couldn’t go on. Obviously I didn’t say why I ended it was a mixture of reason’s but the sex thing is important to me. I can’t be celibate in a relationship I had been single for too long.
Natalie, don’t tell me you’re passing on this little gem? Beautiful late Victorian exterior…
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-43207013.html
I particularly love the marble lawn in the back, and all the chandeliers 🙂
This is actually something my ex said to ME…that I had looked good on paper and that that was important to him. It still feels like an insult more than anything and in the end makes me feel like I was this huge disappointment to him.
When I was growing up, I listened to countless stories about how great my father was, and people told me I was so lucky to be his daughter. They’d rattle on about his higher-education, status, accomplishments, ….
He’s an accomplished member of society, highly revered in his community of cronies and followers.
But in reality, resting on his pedestal, a vile, disgusting, selfish human being, who only does for others, so they’ll do unto him is what I find.
Triggered by something someone stated yesterday, I tried to once again “right this wrong,” as I told someone of supposed wisdom and grace she is full of shit, and she is full of shit, and so many people really are full of shit, and people stand by so eager to admire and glorify them, and then I reflected on my job, and how I know my employer is full of shit, and the situation is full of shit, and so many things in life are bullshit, and how these situations trigger me: I feel compelled to say something about my perceived bullshit-ations, to point them out to everyone. I want to remove the masks, show people the ‘truth.’
As I’ve traveled through my journey, I’ve contemplated whether I “needed to be
‘right.'” Am I a righteous contrarian? I wondered if it was my ego? Was I harboring jealousies? -seeking purpose? Was I seeking human contact? trying to force people to engage?
No. No. …and NO. I really think these people and situations are full of shit!
But, I’ve been asking myself, “so you think they’re full of shit, but why are you so angry about it? And why are you so focused on their shit? You know all you have to do is just walk away, or focus on a solution to any problems that truly affect you, and/or others who ask for your help, and blah….”
“And why do you keep deliberately seeking these situations out, and then planting yourself right smack dab in the middle of them?”
I understand I’m NOT God, and my opinion is mine alone, and I’ve reminded myself of my belief in respecting other people’s boundaries, their journeys, which includes others’ rights to do and think whatever the fuck they want, so what gives?
I looked to my child-self for answers, and she just wanted to be heard, and wanted people to stop telling me how great my father is, and she wanted people to validate what a shit my father is, and she felt powerless in the situation, but I’ve reminded her I’m here now, and we aren’t powerless in the situation anymore, and we don’t need other people to validate the bullshit; if I think it’s bullshit to me it’s bullshit, and she doesn’t need to feel like the bullshit-slayer anymore.
I think I’m always going to be leery of people, situations, and entities, who others praise and…,… because there is truth in this lesson…, but I want to own its origin, and handle it, as an adult.
I still can’t stand people, entities, etc where clearly actions aren’t matching words. I see it as a lack of integrity, a civil wrong, and it just grinds my buttons. But, I’m gonna direct my energies into more productive goals, where I can come from a position of love.
That situation with my father is, also, why, when people start rattling off about how educated, well-read, etc. they are, I’m basically off in the corner thinking who gives a fuck? And truly, I don’t give a fuck.
And talk about a total mind-fuck, my father taught me to dislike his cronies and their bourgeois ways, as he mocked and taunted them behind their backs; yet, he was proud to be one with them.
Are you a good person? Do you maintain good character and integrity? What have you done with your higher education and intellect and the rest of the gifts God gave you to help others and the world?
But, I realize, I’m judging them , and I don’t know them. Maybe they are just proud of their education and achievements, as I am mine.
And, I actually love education, knowledge, powerful thinking…brilliance….
People constantly tell me “I’m not giving enough to the world, I don’t want ‘responsibility,’ and I’m not living up to my full potential; I could be doing more.”
I’ll never agree anyone knows me better than I know myself, but I’m thinking some of the self-sabotage to sort of step into my own is due to my extreme desire to NOT be anything like my father, and some of the twisted beliefs he managed to instill in me, whereas part of me still pooh-poohs formal education. The rub: I feel like God doesn’t make mistakes, and HE carved this lesson, and it has created some of my greatest gifts, but as a mere mortal, I still cannot reconcile the wicked suffering known as the human condition.
Though I really believe, it just confirmed what my soul, higher-self, already knew, and my gifts are just ‘that’–gifts.
I make a distinction between “good-looking” or “handsome” and “attractive” — I’ve been out with the handsome guy who has nothing interesting to say for himself, and FLUSH. He doesn’t even look that good anymore once you get a look at the emptiness upstairs.
If the guy is no breathtaking stud, but is good company, intelligent, respectful, funny, etc. — I’ve had a few of those get better-looking in my perception once I got a closer look at what was going on inside, i.e., once I got a sense of what was really attractive about him beyond his face/body.
I often get glanced over and dismissed for not embodying some superficial, media-driven physical ideal, and I hate it. I try not to perpetuate that thinking if I can possibly help it, by taking some time to try to see past that with people.
NoMoDrama,
You brought this to my mind. When a man is unappealing, but of course acceptable in all the other ways, hygiene, manners, I find that if he has an interesting personality, diversified interests and intellingence I focus far less on looks. And when I was young, a guy had to be above average looking for me to be interested. Now, on the contrary if a man is extraodinarily handsome, as my first husband was, but a mean, selfish sonofabitch, he no longer looks that good anymore. His good looks become unimportant when you’re being treated badly. The man I have now, fortunately, has it ALL. But, at this stage of our lives I’m sad to say we will never be married or cohabiting. Our lives are too different and I don’t see us making many sacrifices. Shucks!! Timing in life means so much.
Don’t judge a book by it’s cover. Take the time to read the description on the back or open it and read a few paragraphs. Sometimes the best books are one’s that didn’t immediately catch our attention. It’s okay to have preferences, but to limit our choices of books to one aisle of the bookstore or one’s with blue shiny covers is missing a lot of good reads. But, if you really dislike books on a certain subject, don’t force yourself to read one. Be authentic to yourself, but also open you mind to new possibilities.
Great metaphor Selkie. I think when you are trying to overcome your own EU tendencies, and have fantasy dreamer leanings, it is really difficult to calm the hell down and not project too much into the future and overthink everything.
Tabitha,
I know what you mean. I have waves of calming down. The calmness brings clarity and acceptance for me. Just last night I was laying on my couch eating choco pies ( my successful version of Peanuts cookie story ), alone, and feeling pretty damn good. For the first time I actually wondered if I even want a relationship to disturb my blissful peace. The butterflies I used to feel seem more like a neural irritation now. I think I have arrived at this place of healing that is like being weightless. While my life can be quiet and solo, it’s bliss to feel no pain, anxiety, or confusion. I am just living and being me. I think it’s where I needed to be, where I needed to find to really get into my own skin. Before, I was calmly frantic (deceiving myself) about filling the void, although I had no idea. The void is no longer this sucking vortex. It’s just white space that I can live with and a much needed rest from the frantic needs I imposed on myself. It’s clearing the canvas for new inspiration. I still leave room for hope of finding a happy partnership, but I no longer let it take the reins.
On good days. 😉
Selkie. I totally agree. You can have a satisfying relationship with a man, but still maintain separate living quarters. I think that’s the best of both worlds because then you don’t have to comply with what the other person wants/needs in yours/their own home. When they really piss you off you can go home and vice versa. LOL!
I began writing a post in response to this topic in which I was going to give myself a pat on the head for choosing character over looks. It’s true, starting in my twenties I began paying attention to how someone made me feel rather than what they looked like.
Ok…I did that for a time, but then it sneakily shifted into how someone’s status made me feel and I started equating it with good character etc.
To my credit, I’m incapable of loving or investing in someone who doesn’t love me. But! I STILL waste precious time getting attracted to status…and then blowing the person off because I’m not feeling their love vibe.
I’d love to figure out my own pathology here and bury it 6 feet deep.
Great post as usual, Natalie. Thank you.
A good post! And yet my ACs have frequently been BAD on paper, and even worse in reality, hahaha.
Snowboard,
That’s the thing, so many women just take these men as is (I’ve been there) and let them mull over everything that makes sense in their lives. Such. A. Shame.
I really suffered from this, to be honest. My standards appearance-wise were so very high — which might explain why I didn’t go out with anyone until I was 29 (that, and having self-esteem issues which really was visible to others, and made me look unattractive — also, I didn’t take care of my looks because of self-esteem issues). I always wanted to go for guys that I had a really excessive amount of attraction to (like my AC ex). After the horrible experience with my abusive ex, I have realized that looks can be and are deceiving ,maybe not always, but a lot of the time. In the past, I’ve avoided men who were interested in me, and showed that interest to me, because I didn’t feel like they were up to my standards, in terms of looks, but also in terms of education, etc. I did make an exception with my ex regarding education (he didn’t even go to college), but because he had a stable job in a very big company. I still think education is important, and isn’t the same as appearances, because it allows you to share a certain mindset and be aware of certain problems (especially if one of you is still pursuing graduate education). But I’ve also realized that if I’m going to wait for an educated guy to like me and for all the stars to align and for things to work out, I can be waiting for a long time and having that as an unbending standard/rule is almost like wanting to mail-order a husband.
I was actually trying out the online dating thing recently. I had two guys chasing after me — one of them asked me out to dinner, the other asked me out to a coffee meet-up. I had never met them before so it was going to be a first date. I decided to drop the dinner guy because I had a sneaking suspicion he was a bit of a jerk and was fast-forwarding / trying to wine-dine me too soon. He emailed me 2 days ago and said that he was now out of town til November. He hadn’t told me he was working in Europe. He then said, I didn’t know I hadn’t told you. He may have been talking to a dozen other women and thought he had told me, or may have been prepping me for a dial-a-lay, for when he got back. Anyway, I told him good luck and flushed. 🙂 So glad my doucheradar was fully functional. It was so reassuring and gave me hope that I am on the right track. The second guy , I went out on a coffee date with, and he was ok-looking, but his career isn’t as impressive as the douchebag guy I just mentioned above. But we clicked on other levels. He asked me if I wanted to go out for another coffee date or for drinks. I thought it was a bit too casual for a second date and I was a bit unsure if things were going to work out, because I didn’t get that “spark” I had with my narc AC ex. But deep down, I felt like it was my old bad habit that was making me unsure about giving this guy a chance, so I decided to drag my old EU self kicking and screaming to a second date with this guy. 😉 And because I didn’t like the idea of a coffee date and wanted him to put in a little bit more effort, I suggested that we go for drinks at the pub. We did, and it turned out to be a super-fun evening. He then suggested that we go elsewhere, and we went to play pool (I had never played it) and bowling. 🙂 We got back to my place and things got a bit heated, but I don’t regret it, and so far he’s shown to be very consistent and not an AC — he texted me the next morning, and the day after that as well (today). Several times in one day, in fact. He seems to be a very decent, respectful guy, though I don’t want to be too hasty in judging. So far, no red flags, that’s for sure, and I have asked him several questions to test for any red flags. But nope, none so far. And he even asked, while we were at my place, “hey, wanna go out to dinner? And watch a movie?” I said yes, I’d love that. 🙂 This was such a different experience than the one with my ex, and at first it kinda made me distressed. I told him (after sex) about my ex. Probably not the wisest thing to do, but I don’t know what came over me. I was on the verge of crying, both then, and when we first kissed, because it just reminded me of my ex. I felt like I was finally letting go of him and all the memories we shared, by going out with someone else, and creating memories with someone else. I don’t know how to explain it. Anyway, I feel better about it now, and want to continue dating this guy, and he has continued to show interest and treat me with respect. That’s all I want. I don’t want a guy who wines and dines me (though offering to pay sometimes can be nice). I can pay my own way. It’s not about that at all. It’s about the desire to be respected and for him to seek out my company. I am optimistic. I don’t even want to think about the possibility that this might fall apart, though, because I don’t know how I would handle that. But maybe I’ll cross that bridge once I get to it?
iving a guy I am not really that attracted to, a chance.
Or…great in jeans, but not so much in person, or…great in the box on the shelf, but not so much in my mouth. Allow me to elaborate:
Today while entering the supermarket to fetch an organic avocado I passed the sweets section (conveniently right as you enter, eh?, dirty bastards) and a certain cookie caught my eye. First off it was Halloween themed. I fucking love Halloween.
The icing was a midnight violet with orange and black sprinkles, then here’s the kicker: Just about an inch a part from one another, tiny white ghosts nestled in the icing. I just about lost it. Yet, I walked away and repeated, “I accept my addictive desire,” twenty times. Then to the avocados which were hard as a rock 🙁
Later that night those tiny little ghost amid that midnight violet background danced in my head. I had to get to that fucking supermarket. (Lucky or unlucky for me they were open 24 hours. Fucking America, who does that? Who really needs to get their grocery shopping done at 4 am? I don’t want to know. I think the truth will just sadden me.)
I bought the cookies along with some other weird items: garlic cheese, hummus, broccoli (Hmmm. When I write them, they sound quite normal).
After taking a sip from a tiny jar of organic milk, I reached for the first cookie, slid it in my mouth and CHOMP! Shite. It tasted like shit. It tasted like clay and crayons mixed with aspartame. I tried another to make sure I didn’t get a bad one. That one was bad too and then the next as well. I ended up eating three. The second one to quality control, the first and the third to justify the midnight trip to the store and, well, eating the former two.
I have cracked the code.
I love the way my ex looks. I’ll spare you all the details as I’m sure enough of you have caught wind of them.
His looks were my main hook.
Just like in my eating addiction (I want most what I tell myself I can’t have because it’s bad for me) I also strongly desire what ticks my visual box.
Now, there is nothing wrong with being enamored by our lover’s looks or relishing in the beauty of our food — as long as both are good for us.
The thing is healthy food ACTUALLY looks better, smells better, and, yes, even tastes better. (I’m not talking a plate of sprouts and dehydrated black beans, though, I don’t know…) But a savory meal of sauteed greens, warm butter smothered duck with a heaping plate of wild rice versus a Nugget Meal at the local Buddy’s Speedy Grub (this doesn’t actually exist. At least I hope not.) Just as porn is the fast food version of sex, unavailable relationships are the fast food of healthy intimate committed romantic relationships. And true to form, the former leaves you sick as shit.
I got hung out on the looks factor and ravenous when I took a bite and there was nothing there, just some artificial flavors and due to stubbornness, I failed to admit where I went wrong and ate so many bites of junk I became sick and malnourished.
I let my life get upturned by silly men and cookies. Well, I got me into this mess so why can’t I get me out? Can I? I’m rather curious to find out.
He’s just a man. A man that didn’t love me. They are just cookies. Just eats that aren’t good for me.
And thank fucking Gawd I finally got myself into art school.
Epic comment, Peanut.
Silly men and cookies, indeed. What a waste of time. Responsible for the waste of my sophomore year of college. Ice cream was involved, too.
And congrats on getting into art school!
Thanks Aryanna,
So far it’s been really exciting!
Peanut, all I can say is Wow!
I got myself into art school after I divorced my EU ex-husband. I was 29 years old and a single mother. I was the oldest person in my class, older than some of my teachers. I graduated Deans List. You will too. The fact that you have the guts to become an artist tells me a lot. It’s not an easy life. It IS a satisfying one. You may not know it, but you have already got yourself out of the mess and are on your way. I only wish I had this blog to educate me, years ago. After my divorce, I got married to another EUM and after I was widowed, got into a relationshit w/ yet another EUM. Thankfully we only lived together for 4 months. I broke up with him over 10 months ago and went NC. Like you, I am rebuilding my life. I am totally paranoid about meeting any man ever. Don’t know if I’ll ever date again. The best part is that neither you, nor I will ever be with another assclown again, because now we know more about ourselves and more about them. So Peanut, the best is yet to come! Art school is a magical experience you will love. It sucks that we all had to learn these hard lessons but now we are wiser. I am really thankful for that.
Lucky_Charms,
I turn twenty-nine this November and I might not be the oldest, but I am certainly one of the older ones in the class. But I don’t care because I enjoy it. I mean it’s a lot of hard work and the sheer endurance I’ve had to cultivate to be able to draw three hours on end has been challenging but so worth it!
Yeah, I don’t really care too too much if I date again at the moment. My dog (though she is being a bit of a shit lately) and the arts are my passionate loves. Okay maybe just the arts, though I do love my animal, I don’t know if I’d go as far to describe it as passionately.
I don’t envision me going down Ass Clown Road again, but sure, that fear is always there.
I’m not ready to date and even if I was I have no clue as to who, as I don’t get out much. So for now I am with me and that is okay.
LMAO! Yep, sounds just like me.
The house-hunting analogy is genius. Until you see it in person, you just don’t know if it has the potential to be a match.
REAL attraction that determines if you are truly on the same page often doesn’t show up immediately. When you first meet someone, or see an online profile, you simply don’t know enough about them to determine if you’re compatible. If you get too excited, you’re just enjoying the aircastles you’ve built up, based on a few superficial qualities that say very little about him as a person.
We tend to think of attraction as hard-wired, but it really isn’t (check out some of Dan Ariely’s work). Studies have shown that attraction tends to grown between people who know each other (this is why all of my friends have become exceptionally good-looking over time!), and that it is in fact, quite malleable.
It’s really not an either/or- date attractive AC’s or repulsive good guys. There are plenty of attractive good guys out there, but when our attraction triggers are wonky, we usually overlook them as boring, or too average, or we just don’t see them at all while our eyes zero in on AC’s without even thinking about it.
Most happy couples I know are quite comparable in looks. Whether you’re male or female, it doesn’t make sense to pine after people significantly better-looking than you are. While these looks mis-matches can happen, they’re unusual enough that they stand out, and the less attractive partner usually has some other quality (like money or talent) to equal things out in other ways.
It can be hard to make a shift in your tastes if you feel you have a “type,” but if you keep an open mind and just take the time to get to know a variety of people, you might be surprised at who ends up floating your boat.
And, there’s nothing wrong with realizing that attraction just isn’t going to happen after a while. Just don’t write off anyone right away because you don’t feel butterflies. Those can develop over time.
Yep, we cannot assume anything about anyone without putting in the time to let them reveal themselves. I have had colleagues who were the absolute best in their fields who are completely unable to relate to others, extremely attractive men who are wonderful men (my ex husband) and some skating on their looks (the AC). Also unattractive men aren’t always kind folks; I have encountered some that were very vicious people. Nats house analogy really resonates in this town. We have a lot of old housing that is totally unsuitable for the region. Most here think that giving them a good paint job, cleaning up the yard is OK when what the damn thing needs uh s a new foundation, wiring, removal of rotten wood etc. Some places have just been allowed to fall apart with no attempt to pretty them up. They are what they are. My house is very weird to the point of folks stopping on the road and photographing it. It’s weird, the neighbors are atrocious, but it’s solid and well built, airy, full of light. Previous commenters are spot on; take time to know someone, don’t force attraction that ain’t there, make no assumptions, walk away if needed. This is why I bailed out of the last on line site. For one, I do not photograph well so I am constantly approached by the seemingly desperate and no matter what happens, I will always be someone who values the intellectual, the passionate, the doer. I worked hard to drag myself away from a family culture of anti educational, middle class wannabe (but actually often impoverished) lives to the point that I will never be dragged back into those values again which seem to be the same values espoused by a lot of guys on line, at least in this region. They want the high income, exotic, fit chick, her lifestyle, while they are barely employed, not big on self improvement, really into TV and bar life themselves. As Peanut says, dating should be fun, uplifting, and it simply has not been, at least on line. It’s great when the racers are here and you can meet guys that share some of your values IRL, but since they are from far away, there’s no guarantee that they don’t have wives or girlfriends back home. Noquay is gonna have to drive many miles in search of events where someone compatible may be, either that or make do until retirement.
Thank you! I loved this one. It’s so true, it’s easy to mistake what other people might think of a new potential relationship because of how (1)you think you look with this person (2)you think you know how other people think about people. I learned I judge other people and relationships too! But it’s not based on looks, it’s based on how happy they look together and then i ponder how they are making things work. By that I mean, outings, dreams and hobbies, and lifestyle choices. It’s a different landscape of being single and not, and how you entertain yourself. Maybe! I am dating someone who is away on a trip for a week. We just started so I’m still adjusting, in the meantime a really gorgeous guy asked me for a drink (as friends) and I couldn’t help but go on a mind loop of what-ifs. He’s got a lot of qualities I like I barely know him. And while looping in all kids of guilty feelings, I found out he’s just kind of flaky. Didn’t get back to me on something and kind of hurt my feelings. Now I am reading this article, and it’s great!!! Thank you.
I could give you an entire PowerPoint presentation on looks-related things I have personally been rejected for. In no particular order:
-Too short
-Too thin (this happened after I’d had a wretched case of the flu for two weeks…he should have waited three days, because I believe in the restorative qualities of bacon and cheese)
-Possessor of breast implants
-Not brunette
I could go on. Don’t be like one of these guys that I run into three years later and they are still single, waiting for the entire Victoria’s Secret crew to show up. We’re all going to get older and less attractive and character is going to be what’s left!
I would NEVER want to look like a Victoria’s Secret Model, (though I do love their undies) because then I would just look like every other Victoria’s Secret Model and I’d have to be a naked float in that silly parade they have every year.
“And if one loves me for my judgement, memory, he does not love me, for I can lose these qualities without losing myself. Where, then, is this Ego, if it be neither in the body nor in the soul? And how love the body or the soul, except for these qualities which do not constitute me, since they are perishable? For it is impossible and would be unjust to love the soul of a person in the abstract and whatever qualities might be therein. We never, then, love a person, but only qualities.
Let us, then, jeer no more at those who are honoured on account of rank and office; for we love a person only on account of borrowed qualities.”- Blaise Pascal
Awesome quote.
8 wks post-break/up today.
The small apartment has some appeal. I realized it’s only slightly larger than Thoreau’s cabin. And it’s surrounded by woods on two sides. It had me thinking about simplifying my life. I could move out to the woods and chill for a while all by myself. It’d be part of a self-improvement project. Right now, the ex and I live within a few city blocks of each other. Stressful most of the time.
We like what we like and I’m not so sure it’s all superficial. I have been out with guys that are tall dark and handsome, shorter guys with glasses and no great body, guys of all shapes and sizes, dumb and really smart and it has all boiled down to one thing … How attracted to each other we were.
If I don’t have at least some spark of ‘hey, you seem really nice’ it won’t matter if he looks like Daniel Craig (drool), I can be friends, go out and have a great time but that’s all. I did meet a nice guy about 3 years ago, the attraction was there initially but as I got to know him I realised that it wasn’t going to work out as there were basic incompatibilities between us. My family and friends thought I was crazy for letting him go and in some ways I think they were right, but, I didn’t love him and he deserved someone who does.
It’s my big hook and one that I find hard to get past … Chasing that feeling! The EUM/AC I subsequently got involved with was a huge instant attraction, yeah, the ones you should run away from as fast as you can.
I’ve made mistakes and I am learning. I’m in a much better place now, happier with myself and more content with my life.
I am definitely guilty of thinking that if a guy has A, B and C, THEN he must be good. I was dating a guy and we broke up yesterday, we weren’t officially together but were sleeping together and he told me that he was “in love with me”. However, we were fighting so much, as we both are quite opinionated and it was getting to the stage where, yeah, we fancied each other but we just didn’t get along most of the time. I am in the middle of finishing my degree, and after one of our fights right before my finals he decided that he would ignore me pretty much for four weeks. When he eventually came around after me pleading with him and him almost losing me we decided to meet again,and of course another fight. I let my resentment towards him bubble, because he wasn’t acknowledging how I felt about his disappearance. I’m ashamed of how I acted. This situation made me depressed too, in the last two months I have not cried as much, I’m not normally a crier. But complains I cry all the time and says he wants a normal person, and asked me to leave his house, it’s over. I am a “normal” person, whatever that is, but feel a part of me has been lost to this mess.
Anyway, he’s quite ambitious, and I admire him because he managed to turn his life around and is now on the verge of becoming quite successful. We come from similar backgrounds. So I thought that this might translate into him being a good guy, someone who might work hard for us. But it didn’t work out that way, he doesn’t really care about me, just about his work. After I left his house yesterday, I almost got my handbag robbed by a gang, luckily I managed to get it back but got hurt a little during the altercation. I’m just in shock. I contacted him right away as I was only after leaving his house. He text back was I OK but that was it pretty much, and just, I am left heartbroken with the realisation that he never cared about me at least enough to offer help. I guess the lesson is, just because someone cares about one aspect of their lives, doesn’t translate into them caring about other aspects.
Blue,
I know the feeling of heartbreak when you realize that the person you thought cared about you, and you cared so much about, did not give a toss about your life being in danger, or you being hurt or in emotional/physical pain, etc. I would express my sympathies and condolences, or offer help and support even to total strangers if confronted with such situations, and would expect others to do the same, but some people, despite knowing you well enough (well, if he’s putting his penis into you….), don’t give a toss about you or anyone else. All they care about is what they are getting out of the “relationship” and once the returns no longer outweigh the “costs”, they will bail. These people are so cold-hearted and calculating, it’s scary. My ex was like this. I was once telling him about an issue, and he cut me off entirely and told me he had found out that his friend from work had been diagnosed with cancer (it turns out he wasn’t close to the guy unlike what he claimed initially, and was jealous of and started badmouthing eventually, a few weeks before break-up with me); i stopped talking about what I was saying, and tried to make him feel better, and this continued for a few days, where I was giving him a lot of support and comforting him, etc. It was all part of his “feel sorry for me” “give me attention” routine, it turns out, since he was never close to that guy, and actually started badmouthing him only a few months later..
In contrast, I told him that my dad had been diagnosed with cancer, and he didn’t express his support nor say he was sorry to hear it, if I was ok, if I needed to talk about it, etc. He didn’t even ask me any questions, or say anything at all. He just avoided the issue completely. And of course no moral support, etc. Months later, my uncle passed away, and I told him about it — and the only thing he asked me: “you weren’t that close to him anyway, right?” Then he changed the topic and started bitching about how, in Turkey, where he worked, the women would not pay attention to him and wouldn’t talk to him. It was an aha moment for me. Such an eye-opener. I was so hearbroken, but it was a moment of clarity, and I just bailed emotionally on the relationship (well, for the most part) though I did not break up with him — he eventually did because he “couldn’t take it anymore” and “it’s too much work.” If it was too much work without him even putting in any work….. holy cow, this guy was just expecting me to be his unpaid prostitute then! I still can’t get over the fact that I was duped for a year, by someone who didn’t give a toss about whether or not my dad or uncle died, and we’re not even talking here about death of a friend but a relative.
If I ever told him I was sick, he would ignore it completely. Meanwhile, when he got a cold, I took care of him for over a week, mothered him basically, nursed him back to health. And not a thank you in return. I feel so used. And this is a guy who kept claiming he was a gentleman and that he believed in chivalry. LOL!
Lara,
You weren’t “duped,” you simply failed to heed the red flags.- no judgement, most of us have been there. If you do not recognize your own complicity in this, you will continue to repeat the behavior.
Pauline
I agree, a lot of the “superficial” has a deep evolutionary basis and now, a deep social basis. My preference for fit men certainly comes from dealing with my unhealthy, obese family; I know too well where that path goes. If someone is not really ambitious, you will be taking up the slack. Keep in mind that at my age, we are talking about dudes in their 60s and for whom failure has pretty much become a way of life. Folks with huge discrepancies in intellectual level won’t have much, if anything to talk about. Sexual incompatibility is a big issue unless you intend to stay celibate.
Blue
This dude is an unfeeling, cold, self absorbed douche. WTF! Someone gets attacked and all you get is a damned text?! BTW, bear spray is a chicks best friend, wouldn’t go into any urban area without it.
Thanks. I’m not sure if bear spray is legal in my country. I am lucky this gang didn’t have weapons, I was upset already and once I realised they had stolen my bag, I charged after them and yanked it back lol. I didn’t think of the risks, I was so preoccupied. I did get my bag back though.
He was working from home which is probably why he felt a text was sufficient. Still. Do something, anything for a woman you had sex with the night before, who you were claiming you were in love with the week before. I haven’t heard from him since, he doesn’t care how I feel or how I am coping. I am trying not to let it get to me because my thesis is due next week and I have to keep it together. But it’s hard, am just gutted.
Blue,
“He was working from home which is probably why he felt a text was sufficient.”
I am not sure why working from home affects his ability / willingness to call you?!?! Sorry, I don’t get it , and I think you are sorta making excuses for him. On the contrary, I would think that if he’s home, he’d be more free to talk to you on the phone?!? Nothing short of him being involved in an accident or being on the verge of dying, justifies that sort of reaction (just texting you) by him…
Snowboard
Yep, if you’re getting red flags from the get go, bail ASAP, they don’t go away. A red flag dude I dated for a second time turned into a stalker, ewwww! Overall, I would say if you feel nothing after date 2, it ain’t gonna happen. In my case, since dating OK involves driving long distances, serious expense, effs up the environment, etc, I tend to bail pretty fast if I am not feeling it.
Thanks Natalie for another useful post, love it! I am not a shallow person, but for me is very important what person does for living…I met this new guy, he is good looking, tall, but…he is Funeral Director and it’s put me off somehow! Would you date him girls?
Little star
It’s no biggie, do whatever feels right to you. You’re not in the last chance saloon, another guy will be along soon.
You made me laugh though …I think I might feel a little creeped out. But on the positive side, his business is recession proof!
Little Star- I’d give him a chance, would want to know how he got into that field & why he stays. What does he do in his spare time? What kind of sense of humor does he have? How does he think? Just get to know him a little bit, Little Star, & go from there.
Little Star,
I´d just let him unfold, as Natalie says. It does sound a bit creepy, but who says creepy people can´t be wonderful partners? Think Gomez and Morticia Addams…
Just kidding, of course, but I don´t think it´ll be a big deal once you get to know him more.
Mymble, Rosie and Lilia THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR RESPONSES! It’s mean a lot to me.
He is nice guy, has a dry sense of humor and I was curious myself why he decided to apply for this position…He lost his job and was desperate (he has a mortgage to pay) and now he even enjoying his job, HOW CREEPY! I asked him: “How can you enjoy dealing with dead people and their upset relatives?” He said: “At least I can be helpful in this difficult times!” I do not know girls, but more I think about it, more I want to let him go:( He does not have that much interests and not that talkative to be honest…I probably meet him one more time and see if his job is still a big issue:)
Thanks again xxx
I’ve applied a couple of times over the years for Funeral Director jobs and the selection process is quite demanding.
I don’t find it all creepy because the job is really about the living and helping them deal with their loss.I guess it helps that I studied human biology at Uni and had to deal with cadavers etc and so the dead person aspect isn’t as confronting.
So yes I would definitely date a guy who is a funeral director. I have positive associations with this job because I’ve seen how kind and caring and compassionate they can be (it’s becoming much more a women’s job). I’ve been a teacher and you’d be amazed how many people get put off by people who are teachers because of their negative associations from school.
At the end of the day I am not my job and neither is this person. Any job can have positive and negative aspects to it. I’d think twice about dating a band member or stockbroker.
What really counts is the BR basics; do you have the same values, is he decent & respectful, do you get along, have some common ground?
To me he sounds pragmatic, responsible and caring, and you said he is nice, has a dry sense of humour, is good looking and tall. Ticking a bunch of my boxes on paper! (if he was the right age and lived in my city in Aus I’d be asking for his number!)
He may turn out to be EU or AC or just plain totally boring; only time can tell, but it won’t be his job that determines these things, it will be his character.
I’m with Furry White Dogs!! I say, give him a chance!
Furry and Snowboard, thank you for your comments, I have to agree with you that it just his job, and if he even enjoying what he does who I am to judge?! But somehow I find this a bit put off…I will definitely give him a chance, I am meeting him this weekend.
Hello this is tired ,I’ve changed my name .I’m learning to be content and its great .Man or no man im feeling the beginnings of being content .Oh I’ve made some bloopers since the arse clown.Your can’t go by appearance it’s the actions.Always go by the actions never the appearance or words .At the moment no one in my life or on horizon and I’m happy about that . Family and a good set of friends . Do you know how I know I’m healing I sing along stupid but it reflects my inside feeling . I started to do things I used to do in my spare time ,where I used to dwell .I don’tidwell anymore . I still think from time to time about arse clown and it gets me angry but I know how to deal and let it go .Nat was right you have to let people unfold 🙂
Content! Congrats on the name change …
It’s the old saw. You can’t judge the book by its cover.
I don’t believe going after men simply because they’re kind, considerate and into you if you can’t imagine ever having a romantic interest in them. For one thing, it’s playing way too safe unnecessarily. You’re assuming that the guy you’re not physically attracted to won’t break your heart. Ha. I went out with a guy I wasn’t into, but after awhile I started getting feelings for him and thought, hmm, maybe I could become attracted to him. He ended up treating me badly and dumping me. And get this – I found out he was already married to a woman who was 10 times hotter than me. His ego was huge and I made it worse. I can’t say my heart was broken, but time was wasted.
As someone who had experienced childhood sexual abuse at the hands of a grandfather (ew), being attracted to someone I have sex with is EXTREMELY important to me. Consent is highly important. If I start feeling it’s becoming a duty, then I start to feeling it’s going into non-consensual territory. I don’t ever want to feel like I have to turn my head away, hold my breath or imagine myself to be with someone I’d prefer.
Having said that, what I find attractive might be very different for someone else. Attraction is a starting point, not an end point. There’s a range of looks that I find attractive, and those that repel me. I cannot go out with a man who repels me physically even if he’s the sweetest guy on earth. Does it mean that I will only date attractive guys no matter how crappy they are to me? No. It just means that I have to wait longer to find a man who checks off most of the boxes on my list.
If you do get physical with a man you’re physically attracted to as well as emotionally, it will be a duty and it’s likely you will avoid being intimate with him. That wastes his time that he could’ve spent with a woman who truly wants him.
I was in a relationship for a year with my ex-girlfriend. We just broke up almost two months ago but in reality we were over before we began. I had never been attracted to a woman before until I met her and I pursued her only to be told that I wasn’t her type. It was constant rejection not to mention she had just broken up with the perfect woman according to her. We continued to be friends and as soon as I decided that I wouldn’t pursue her anymore she wanted me and all the attention and love I gave her. I loved and cared her back into a better place after her breakup. She wasn’t attracted to me physically. We stopped having sex after four months into the relationship. She wanted me to be something I wasn’t. She wanted a model who wore sexy underwear. I have always had low self-esteem but being with her for a year totally did a job on me. I have never been in a relationship that was so mentally and verbally abusive. My point is she didn’t like the way I looked and I have never been told I was unattractive just the opposite. My body type was a problem for her I was constantly made to feel fat. Nothing was good enough. From the top of my head to my feet were all wrong. My conduct was wrong, my friends, my daughter. There was nothing except serve her breakfast in bed and listen to her talk about herself basically be a doormat was good enough. She still wanted to remain friends even after she told me she didn’t want to be in a relationship. I didn’t want to be friends. I needed to get over her and move on. She didn’t want me. She wanted a companion. A dog. I played that part for a year hoping that she would see the good in me. The value of her loving me but in reality I needed to love me more than I loved her. I needed to get away from her. We COULD NOT ever be friends. She didn’t deserve e my love and definitely not my friendship. She is a narcissist. I found that out later. Day by day I’m putting myself back together. Our last encounter was awful. A lot was said and it wasn’t nice but it needed to be said because I needed to be done with her and that wouldn’t have happened if I pretended that I was ok with her treatment of me. She wanted me to stick around until she found somebody else and where would that leave me? Nowhere. As days go on I’m getting stronger. It’s a work in progress but I hope to being back to myself in hopefully another month. Good luck to everyone going through the struggle. Smooches