The tricky situation: Kim asks, I pined for a Mr Unavailable for months while he let me believe that we were essentially together. Same song, different tune, I know. Fast forward–after things reached a breaking point, we agreed to be friends. So, I worked on me and realised that he was an emotional disaster in the first place and not a good match for me anyway, but we’ve stayed really good friends.
We see each other every day, talk on the phone multiple times a day, and have met our respective families and friends. We easily sleep in the same bed (mostly naked, without sex), and I know almost everything there is to know about him. In essence, we live in each others back pockets. Any time we have argued, he makes himself sick with worry over losing me from his life. I seldom anger unless there is a very critical issue on the table.
Anyway, we have all these good things between us, but it’s still hard for me to feel so rejected and overlooked. I guess I feel kind of ugly because he’ll sleep with practically anyone except me and we’ve connected on so many levels but he can’t see his way to anything romantic. I have held it together thus far, and he really is a close friend, but I keep doubting myself and wondering why this man values me in every other way except romantically. It’s really hard, and I am afraid that I cannot continue at this pace.
Am I doing the wrong thing by keeping him in my life? It doesn’t seem fair to punish a person because they do not view me romantically. I have been at the receiving end of that dynamic for most of my life. I don’t know what to think or what to do. Is there any way you can shed a bit of light on what my next steps should be?
********************
In the words of Whoopi Goldberg’s character Oda Mae Brown in Ghost, “Kim, you in danger girl”. Your ‘friend’ is, as we say here in England, mugging you off. Imagine you purchased a car from me and discovered that it was faulty and not as described, and I said, “Kim, I’ve been an assclown. I’d hate to lose you. I’ll make things right–I’ll replace it”. You and I hang out in it daily. Sometimes we drive around naked without touching. And sometimes you park up while I mess with other women. I keep telling you how I’d hate to lose you. And even though the car is playing up, you keep pushing down your concerns and annoyance. Eventually you realise that I’ve done a superficial fix of the old car and spray-painted it a different colour and called it ‘new’.
You’re also screwing you over.
He’s enjoying all the fringe benefits of a romantic relationship minus the sex while getting to go and throw his willy about elsewhere. You don’t think that some of the other members in his harem wonder why he only sleeps with them but gives you everything else? This guy has it made! He’s play-acting at a relationship and playing you all off against each other.
The truth is, you know what’s going on here but you’re pretending that you don’t and attacking your self-worth. This is denial paraded as naivety.
He’s bang out of order. Until you own your part, though, you’ll be playing Girl Who Doesn’t Have A Cluenwhile feeling as if this is something he’s doing to you. This is a painful situation… in which you’re an active participant. You have a choice in setting the boundary lines of your friendship. If you’re 100% honest, you’ll see that you’ve seconded yourself to this ‘friendship’ in the hopes of eventually taking up a title relationship where you are the Good Girl Who Made Mr Unavailable Change His Ways. This is not a friendship.
You’re taking what you’re doing to you and calling it his behaviour.
You’re the one who’s rejecting and overlooking yourself by extension of your participation. You say that it doesn’t seem fair to “punish” someone because they don’t view you romantically. Kim, Kim, Kim, Kim, Kim, Kim, KIM.
Let me tell you something:
Out there right now, there are millions of women who sleep with people, hold their tongue, and continue in awful relationships. And that’s without getting into all the ones who’ve come and gone before us. Why does this happen? Because they’re afraid of not being ‘nice’ and ‘punishing’ that person for not wanting the same thing. “Ooh, you want sex and I don’t? Oh they’re there. I couldn’t have you suffering a hard-on with nowhere to put it just because I don’t want to have sex. Forget what I want.” Cue squeezing eyes shut, making noises in the right places (because we don’t want to ‘punish’ them by not acting as if it was the most spectacular sex ever), crying self to sleep, and being haunted by shame.
Here’s how romantic interest works: Either two people have it or it’s doomed. Like dating, romantic interest is guesswork initially. Romantic interest, also, has no bearing on how compatible you are in actuality. Interest is not a contract. Over time, one or both can acknowledge that there is interest but you each want different things. Both people are free to leave at any time. You don’t have to be friends with your ex.
Exes aren’t owed friendship as a consolation prize.
Your choosing not to be friends wouldn’t have been about punishing him. It would have acknowledged that logically (mostly) you know that he’s not the man for you but, emotionally, you’re still into him. Out of respect for him and yourself, you step away from friendship so that you have time to grieve the loss of your hopes and expectations and to gain perspective.
You’re also projecting your experiences. Ascertain what being ‘punished’ for his not being interested means to you?
If someone decided not to hang out with you after you didn’t reciprocate their feelings, that’s called respecting their and your feelings. We all need time to process rejection, to move on from that lack of interest so that we can be open to a more befitting relationship.
Ever been peeved about not being invited to an event that you don’t actually want to go to? Ever been annoyed about not being liked by someone who you don’t like?
You can see umpteen reasons for why a relationship with him is a bad idea but you’re insulted that someone ‘like him’ isn’t breaking himself to be with you. It’s, I Can’t Believe They Don’t Want Me Syndrome.
You’re also conflating romantic interest with purely sexual interest, so now you’re objectifying you and the other women. You haven’t realised yet that because you’re great, he would rather have you on some [manipulated] terms than none. Too scared and self-involved to be with you, too scared and self-involved to not be. Now he’s put you on layaway so that no one else gets near you. You do realise that you’re unavailable now?
Who’s gonna be cool with dating you while you have a Relationship But Not One with your ex?
He wants a Madonna beard (a woman he treats ‘better’ than all of his other women ‘The Whores’. I really feel for you all. The idea is that he can parade you around to his friends et al and reassure them (and himself) that he’s more okay than he is. You’re his alibi.
It’s not your job to make him a better person and you are over-feeling. You’re taking responsibility for his imagined potential feelings from exiting this faux friendship and fearing that his house of cards will tumble. It’s gonna tumble anyway. Stop throwing yourself under a bus for him.
Spend some time evaluating what you get out of playing Queen of the Harem and competing with other women. Look in to your past. Compare your angst now with other situations so that you can zone in on what this is really all about, including compassionately investigating, alone or with professional support, where you developed the habit of care-taking wounded partners.
- Where did this pattern of codependency originate?
- Who’s the person in your pattern that you’re really afraid of ‘punishing’?
You say you seldom anger. It sounds as if you have a pattern of disguising and denying anger with confusion and people pleasing.
Most of all, own your right to choose what you do and don’t participate in. Sure, he’ll be disappointed. If it’s a choice between loving you and catering to his ego, though, choose you.
Next step: End your friendship with compassion and grace and time for the self-care of No Contact.
Are you ready to stop silencing and hiding yourself in an attempt to ‘please’ or protect yourself from others? My book, The Joy of Saying No: A Simple Plan to Stop People Pleasing, Reclaim Boundaries, and Say Yes to the Life You Want (Harper Horizon), is out now.
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Amazing advice. This is the crux of it right here:
“Too scared and self-involved to be with you, too scared and self-involved to not be. Now he’s put you on layaway so that no one else gets near you–you do realise that you’re unavailable now?”
If you were dating other people as well and both of you were happy that would be one thing, but you aren’t even casually looking, are you? Dating at all? Even just hooking up with others yourself? If you were and if you were OK with this you wouldn’t be asking for advice.
Also, this doesn’t make him a bad person, just one who isn’t looking for the same thing you are. You need to find someone who is, and right now being this close to this other person is preventing that. I had to learn this the hard way too, so I understand- sometimes you need to distance yourself from good people for a while because they aren’t good for you right now.
Brilliant post. It is like reading the exact scenario of myself and an old flame (although I was never sure if we were ever boyfriend/girlfriend). I decided on NC 26 days ago and it was the best thing I ever did. You can never be friends with these men, it doesn’t work like that ladies. Look after YOU.
I think this is one of the best I’ve read from Nat!
How little we settle for.
I do wonder if NC is hard because no one wants to say ‘go away I’m not your friend’. Even if you don’t have to actually say it aloud, NC implicitly involves saying this. That’s why I think it’s important to recognise that such people are not your friend. That you don’t have to convert it into friendship. Once I could say to myself that ex EU is not a friend, Nc became super easy.
And Nat is bang on the money – this guy does faux relationships. It’s romance with all the trimmings and no responsibility, no ties, no expectations. The ultimate in cake eating. Sleep naked with a close friend that is in no danger of being ‘unfaithful’ while having sex with anyone you want. I do wonder what he tells the harem sexual partners.
He doesn’t tell them anything. To be honest, he essentially begs for attention from certain women–who seldom give him the time of day unless they need something– and others he simply sleeps with and largely ignores until he wants his next fix. Those women do not appear to mind the casual nature of their hookups. Also, none of these people are aware of the others. Multi-dating is not a crime though, and none of them seem to have any staying power (so far). If it were up to him, I would not know anything about any of these women myself, as he tries to hide them from me and keeps getting caught. Oddly enough, he had a nine year relationship followed by a three year relationship, so he was able to commit to different people at different points, but he has become so completely obsessed with women that he cannot stop trying to chase them. It’s very unhealthy, and I have told him that he desperately needs therapy, both for the obsessing and the lying. He will go if I insist, since I have told him that I will not remain friends with him unless he gets help for his nonsense and he has agreed. But lately I have my own problems and I do not care enough to insist.
It is difficult, because he really is a genuinely sweet man that simply has more issues than you can shake a stick at. He treats me very well within the confines of friendship, and he has not led me on since we clarified things about six months ago. A couple of his male friends have chased me, and he genuinely does not seem to mind, nor does he mind when I do occasionally go on dates. It seems to be an authentic friendship, except that ordinary boundaries do not appear to exist.
Kim!!!
WHY are you trying to control him? [I have told him that I will not remain friends with him unless he gets help for his nonsense] So, if HE doesn’t get help he loses out on naked platonic sleepovers? Why should he have to tell you who he is screwing? You view him as ‘hiding’ something from you. Everything Natalie pointed out is where you need to focus. He is a lying, obsessive man who sleeps with other women. You cannot control his choices, but yet you tell him that the ‘friendship’ is contingent on him behaving in the way YOU want. That’s not a friendship. Why are you sleeping naked with this guy? WHY WHY WHY? Seriously?
The therapy thing came about because he did a couple of things that were damn-near unforgivable from ANY friend, and were a direct result of his being unable to stop himself from lying and skirt chasing. It really doesn’t matter to me if he throws himself at women, except that I would be concerned about any friend of mine that evidenced such little self-esteem, male or female. When it impacts my life, however, it changes the story: I won’t be a casualty of his stupidity. I would treat any female friend exactly the same way if she was lying to me and allowing her personal issues to hurt me. He can sleep with whomever he wants. He can even lie about it, if it makes him feel better. But it better not negatively impact me or my life. As for the naked sleepovers…they are far from frequent, and quite frankly it’s more to do with cuddling and feeling close to someone. The clothing optional thing isn’t really a factor. I have slept clothed with him too. It doesn’t really matter either way. Not a good excuse, I know. False intimacy. But for someone with no real prospects, it’s better than running out and having sex with strangers. At least he actually DOES care about me on some level.
Kim,
I hate to say it, but you are not listening. It is NOT a friendship, it looks like one but it is not a friendship. You are not free for someone who cares and respects you, you are just hanging around naked dingle guy. He is not “lying” to you as you are not his girlfriend and you should have no interest in who he dates. He is not under obligation to tell you what he does, and you should not ask. You do not control him, you are just there, you are in no position to tell him to seek therapy, as you are not really in his life.
I know it is crazy to understand how you can be there in the same room with a guy, but not really “be” there. He is just hanging out with you, keeping you from meeting someone else as you feel attached. He is not attached to you, but by telling you of his escapades, you feel “part” of his life, but you are actually not “part” of his life.
Here is my analogy. You are the person everyone is annoyed with who saves a premier seat in an auditorium for a friend. You are in the front row saving a seat for you friend, so no one else can sit there. But when the show starts, you are sitting alone saving a seat. Your friend is up in the balcony enjoying the show with someone else. You sat all alone and lonely. Afterwards, when the show is over, he comes down to tell you how much fun he had sitting with his other lady friend. He only tells you to be unkind, but you see it as being “nice” to let you in on his “life.” IT is mean spirited, but crumbs taste like nice when you get a big plate of them.
Back to the analogy. You would have had so much fun seeing the show with him, but he does not care about you at all. But you were even saving a seat for him in the front row. HE DIDN’T WANT IT. (He doesn’t “want” you, he would have made an exclusive romantic thing with you if he did, he does not). He will always go and sit where he wants without any feeling of your emotion about it. You are saving a seat for no one – this is how he is NOT in a relationship with you at all. And by the way, you have zero influence or control over him, none whatsoever. So stop suggesting therapy or ultimatums, it is a waste of breath that you will need when you are 98 years old and wish you had more breath for your life left and there is none. It was all wasted on someone who is living a fun life WITHOUT YOU.
Please wake up, you are better and more beautiful than this guy deserves.
I can only talk as I have done the same myself, but no more. Now an angel with wings called Nat has given us names for this behavior: AC, EU it goes on and on.
Kim,
You said a couple of times that he’s “unable” to stop skirt chasing and lying.
Do you really think he’s unable to stop? He sounds like he’s 100% in control of his actions, he’s just manipulating you so you won’t be mad.
And you sound like you’re still hoping for some crumbs and hoping he’ll See the Light and Treat You Correctly. He won’t.
He’s given you clear indications that he is only interested in doing the least possible work to keep you around. He’ll go to therapy if you insist (why are you insisting? He’s a grown man and you’re not responsible for him). He’s willing to hurt you very deeply, too (he’s done things- more than once- that are “damn near unforgiveable” which IMO sounds like he’s intentionally pushing that boundary, seeing if he can move it by gently increasing his bad deeds).
Please please please, I know it hurts but end it and go no contact. That’s not punishing him, it’s taking care of yourself. The only thing you do by staying is prolong the pain.
Yeah, this crap about “he can’t help” skirt chasing and lying is the bullshit they’re feeding you. Men are adults and they can control themselves. They rely on this mythology about “how men are” to excuse bad behavior they have no intention to change – and to manage down your expectations. It’s insulting to men, frankly – this notion that they have no self-control. It’s nonsense.
He never said that he cannot help himself. It’s because I have seen his bizarre compulsion at work, mostly when he did not realize that I was tuned in. But you are all correct; I am sure that he can control this habit when properly motivated. Except that no woman will ever be enough to make him stop.
Kim, this is a pretty simple one I’m afraid – he’s not physically attracted to you. This doesn’t mean you’re not physically attractive. He also doesn’t want to sleep with anyone he’s emotionally involved with because that would mean expectations he’s clearly not ready or able to fulfill. Either way, bad news for you.
I totally get that he treats you well in every other way – and it’s hard to let go of a friend in an age when it’s so hard to find people who are actually reliable – but it doesn’t sound like, as Nat said, you are emotionally available for anyone else right now.
I recommend an extended period of NC to allow you to emotionally stabilize. Once you are TRULY emotionally available for other men who are themselves emotionally available, perhaps you can circle back to this guy for some friendship.
I am friends with my ex-EUM but it only happened after MONTHS of NC and when I felt that I was truly able to move on with someone new. We are still friends (tho we don’t sleep naked together! sheesh!) and I am dating someone I very much like and am emotionally available for.
Good luck to you, I feel your predicament.
Oh. Hell. No. Do I need to say that again. I am on friendly terms with one ex. By friendly I mean he calls and we chat and I turn him down when he asks me out. He is a very nice guy who would do anything for me but his stack of issues would fill a good sized highrise apartment building. I actually dated a man earlier this year who was quite the asshole who claimed he parted with EVERY romantic relationship as “friends”, I told him I was going to be the exception and I seriously doubt what he told me was true. Or more correctly in his mind it was true, I bet if I wanted to survey the ladies I might get a different response.
I am never friends with my exes, ever. I can think of a few who I have genuine good wishes for and I hope things turned out well for them. I will say that I have a very narrow definition of who qualifies as a “friend” romantic or platonic, probably more narrow that most people, I have a larger swath of acquaintances. Why do we live in this era where the whole planet wants to be friends I don’t get it.
Please, please, please unload this damaging friendship. It is corrosive.
AWESOME ADVICE!!!!
WHY IN THE HELLLLL WOULD YOU WANT TO SLEEP WITH SOMEONE WHO WOULD SLEEP WITH ANYONE??????
Yeah, that was me too in high school and you know what I snagged when he finally did sleep with me?
An std.
Well, to be fair, I had no idea he was like that when I first met and hooked up with him. Had I known, things would have played out quite differently. Incidentally, I am not saying that I want to have sex with him again; I am saying that there is a terrible feeling of rejection that comes from knowing that someone cares about you in *almost* every way, even though they have low standards when it comes to sex partners. It kind of makes me feel like I’m a dog’s breakfast. It’s actually very reminiscent of my last ex-boyfriend, who wouldn’t touch me to save his life even though he “loved” me. I guess I never really recovered from that blow and now I am somehow causing it to repeat itself.
You’re worth more than that Kim. This bloke and the one prior are not proper partners. They’re not even good friends.
I hope that you will be able to cut ties with this person. He is a user. When you are away from him, the situation will come into focus for you very clearly. After a time, you won’t want him back in any way, shape or form. In fact, thinking of him and the “relationship” you once had might even make you feel a bit sick.
I was in a “friendship” with a guy just like this. A guy who had a harem and a string of ex girlfriends to stroke his ego and convince him he was not a bastard. I realised at some point I would have to go No Contact because that was the only thing that he would understand. My previous attempts to keep a distance from him had not worked. He thought it was okay to keep reeling me in when it suited him.
It didn’t take long after I cut him off for good that the cure happened. I realised the anxiety and the bad feelings had lifted because I wasn’t constantly on edge, waiting for him to pop back up again and favour me with his presence.
I don’t hate him or even dislike him. I just find his way of doing relationships toxic and I want no part of it. I feel better for not being in that situation and I hope it will work for you too.
Best of luck.
He cares about you in almost every way?
I think he cares about you not at all. Why else is he willing to do things (plural) that are “damn near unforgiveable?”
People who care about you don’t accidentally do things that are deeply hurtful with regularity. That’s someone who simply doesn’t care.
Kim
The saddest thing is you sound like such a sweet, conscious soul with a good conscience. Remember, evil is attracted to light too.
Kim, You have a million excuses for this fukkery and not one of ’em has passed my sniff test. And I gotta lousy sense of smell.
A relationship whether it’s friend or romantic is not a Spectator Sport. You have elected yourself Team Coach (oh yes you have) and he’s all about being sidelined by faux injuries from the other playas/ women so you can then put on your Team Doctor white coat and play “Lemme Fix It.” He gets to play “Shakin’ My Seed Around Like a Rusty Old Bird Feeder”and you wag your finger at him, bad boy! He has a mama. He has an MD. He has everything he needs including you, a willing pay-to-play partner.
This is a pattern with you, Kim. You are the constant. The “problem” is not “out there”or residing anywhere else but within YOU. “I won’t be a casualty of his stupidity.” That’s right, you’re just fine thankyouverymuch being a casualty of your own. Wadda ya mean “…he got caught with other women?” What are you? How are you not “another woman” to a bunch of other women? He’s done every last thing he can do to SHOW you there ARE Boundaries in your “friendship” and not only does he set them, he’s done everything but rent a damn Good Year blimp and tow a sign over your place, “NO Kim! We Are NOT in a Relationship!”
And the piece de resistance, “…but it better not negatively impact me or my life..” Or what? You’re gonna tell him to take his teddy bear and go crash somewhere else? Ya gonna put him in Time Out?
And since it’s clearly not “negatively impacting” you, look where you are: A Relationship Site.
(Face/screen.)
Too rich.
Be advised this is my “PC” response. Don’t come back at me with excuses, Kim. I won’t be open to them. Every time you’ve done so thus far there’s a blazing “full moon” blistering this site. An ass towing a sled of professionally boxed excuses is still an ass.
TW
Tundra,
I know this was addressed to Kim, but wow, I’m impressed. Had I had someone to come hard at me with the truth before Nat to wake me up, I might have saved myself decades long turmoil of pain via the excuses I made for these men.
Well done.
Honestly, I am not trying to explain away this ridiculous situation or justify it. I was trying to shed a little more light on why I might be ensconced in something that is so obviously unhealthy. It can be very easy to write someone off as daft or emotionally stunted or slightly crazy…I just wanted everyone to know that I am not coming at this from a position of pure stupidity.
You consistently make excuses for why you cannot (will not actually) take speedy action on the advice from many many wise women who have been in the EXACT situation (all emotionally unavailable pseudo relationships are the same fundamentally).
Okay but how is Natalie always on time with this advice?! I asked the universe for this insight on Sunday and here comes Natalie delivering it to me on a silver platter here on Wednesday. I thankfully dodged a bullet and already said “no” to their friendship before even reading this post. But the followup validation feels very nice.
Me too! I asked the same thing Sunday night and here we are, the best and most appropriate answer.
I don’t know about you guys, but I couldn’t wait to read Natalie’s response to this question! I read the question, and before I read Nat’s answer, I got all prepped, with my Old Fashioned and my water and some raw cashews, then came back for the unveiling.
Kim, Kim, Kim, Kim, Kim, Kim, KIM. Love that. I can hear Natalie’s voice.
Kim, what are you DOING, gurl??! You say,” It doesn’t seem fair to punish a person because they do not view me romantically…I have been at the receiving end of that dynamic for most of my life.”
You have been on the receiving end of that dynamic because you have no sense of your own worth. You run up to a man and ask him to determine your worth. You hand over the keys to your mansion and ask HIM to tell you how much it is worth. Well, the best deal for that man is to make you feel like it’s a scrap heap, worth only pennies, so he gets to live in a mansion for FREE. He makes you pay for the upkeep, the utilities, because, after all, he’s doing you a favor by residing in this hovel. But it’s NOT a hovel, it’s a MANSION. And if you can’t see you are a mansion, he certainly is not going to tell you.
You need to do some remedial BR reading right now.
You are using this pseudo-relationship to fill way too many facets of your life. Both of you are codependently using each other. It’s gotten comfortable and I’m not sure either one of you really wants anything to change. You seem to like to be in the know about what is happening in his love life. If you are really not trying to cast him in the role of “your man”, then how can you use the phrase “he tries to hide things from me”. He is totally comfortable. He gets intimacy from you – intimacy is NOT sex – and he cats around and can tell you about it with little repercussion.
Kim, do you want anything to change? There are men who will want the whole nine from you – intimacy and sex. But if you persist in believing that can’t happen, well…….you get what you believe.
Okay, but I have been single for the vast majority of my adult life. I hardly date at all! I essentially have a boyfriend once every decade. This is not the behaviour of a person that cannot function without a partner. It is the behaviour of a person that cannot handle rejection in any way, shape, or form lol.
Kim, like you, I’ve also been single most of my adult life (I’m 32), but that BS he’s trying to pull with you right now? Hell no! As single as I am, I would’ve flushed his sorry arse at the first sign of sh*t! It’s not worth it! Never is!
He is not your friend, he is not your lover, he’s definitely not your boyfriend – so what purpose does he have in your life? He obviously doesn’t make you happy or you wouldn’t be here seeking advice.
Better to be alone and stress-free than entwined with this dude who clearly gives zero f**ks about your happiness or wellbeing.
Yep you are totally trying to justify why you are staying around. No matter what anybody says on here you are hell bent on defending him..why??!! So he is a sweet guy, so what? There are plenty of “sweet” guys and there will be one out there who actually wants to have a relationship with you. Maybe you are the one who is not ready to let go, maybe you are emotionally unavailable in regards to a new relationship, and this makes you okay with staying in this stalemate situation with this guy. If he makes you feel bad it is up to you to do something about it! We can all offer advice but it is YOU who has to finally take that step. Stop making excuses for him and start thinking of what would make you happy.
I am not hell-bent on defending him…I am trying to explain why I have behaved the way that I have up until this point. I want you know that I am not oblivious to what is happening and that I am a relatively sound individual that is experiencing something that is uncomfortable.
A guy can brag about sex he supposedly gets somewhere else. Unless you are in the bedroom with them, some of it is not true.
Think about being denied something for a long time, by someone who can easily give it to you. It is a form of torture.
I had a friend who used to wind up his dogs, go and get the leash, then taunt the poor things, “do you want to go out and play,?” “Out and play now?” Then he would NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER take the dogs out when he promised the dog he would, it just used to break my heart. He did it on purpose, and it hurt my heart that he would just make the dog wag the tail for him, (all that innocent anticipation) and nothing would ever come of it (this is a depraved person right here). I even told him one time, I could not stand it, I had to take the dog out, he forbid me to take that dog out and I realized he was an ass and stopped going to his house socially.
Your friend is doing the same thing to you. He is doing the exact thing to you. Did this ever occur to you? It occurs to me. Your naked dangle my dingle guy may be enjoying seeing you get chipped away, “why won’t he sleep with me, why won’t he do x or y with me – but he will do it with a or b?” Can’t you see? He is torturing you, he could be with you, he has naked body, sex hormones, all the parts are there. He smells like he wants sex, he is there physically, he could have you….uh oh. Dangle the carrot in front of your eyes, dangle his dingle. Oh so close. But NOT for you, no my sweet, not for you. For the gutter ho’s but not for you (for whatever reason you imagine). No, never for you, so close, so far away, not for you.
Don’t you see? This guy is torturing you slowly. It is a slow death, he is orchestrating a slow death for you. He is a love terrorist, run the other way. At least go NC to prove to yourself that you are walking in the sunshine, and not still walking with the dead.
Please get out, I am begging you. He will make your mind so f*^cked, that you will be no good for that fabulous guy who deserves you one day. Read this advice out loud, record it on your phone, then play it back while you take a good hard look in the mirror. You can do better.
EXCELLENT.
Brava!
Your comment, Adele, applies to so many situations.
Whoa I think you’re right. There is something a bit creepy about two willing single adults who like each other and get in bed and cuddle and take off their clothes and do …nothing. Over and over again. Shudder.
I really liked that dog example, too. Great metaphor that I will remember.
Adele,
You really nailed it. I was with a guy who tortured his dogs the same way and I was his woman! You can imagine what he did to me! Same thing: love terrorist. he was a woman-hater who needed to destroy women. Right on, girl. You painted such a clear picture that you greatly added to Nat’s wonderful compassionate words.
And Elgie R.
“You are using this pseudo-relationship to fill way too many facets of your life. Both of you are codependently using each other. It’s gotten comfortable and I’m not sure either one of you really wants anything to change.”
Its so true, Kim. You are getting something out of this. I had to face this with my Narcissist — that I was participating. Avoiding the full-on scariness of my own happiness. don’t be afraid of the light you have. It is why these dark-beings are attracted. They feed off it. But you are feeding them so you don’t have to grow up and have a REAL relationship. You at the EU. Face that first.
LOVE YOUR ANSWER! I hate that it’s true, but you are right.
Wow I LOVE this. Love terrorist! And the dog analogy. Perfecto.
Dangle his dingle… LOL. Adele, I am dying over here.
It’s time for you to admit to yourself that you’re not ready for a real relationship. People who are REALLY READY don’t waste their time with all this drama because they’re laser focused on reality and making a life for themselves. You’re just hiding behind him so life doesn’t get to you…
Kim,
Also, healthy, mindful (and sometimes fiercely held) boundaries are not punishment, they are a necessity and a right.
You also need to slow it way down in the beginning and OBSERVE. There are such shady characters parading as Godsends is would make your head spin.
Time Time Time. You must take the time to get to know someone (AND THEIR SEXUAL HISTORY) before you put your life in danger with a playboy.
And…..
Before you date, you MUST be in a strong enough position that you can withstand rejections and walk away for good at any sign of funny business (i.e. red flags).
Order Nat’s book Mr Unavailable and The FallbackGirl from Amazon (or online via this site/I love the hardcopy fyi), study it (I’ve read it three times and it saved my life), and pay special attention to the back section where it gives a list a red flags (i.e., when to run).
Good luck, but you will need more than that. Get ready to work because you are too good to not work toward better choices that lead you away from awful people.
I used to be in a harem like Kim here and so I can really empathise with her (faulty) logic process cos this was me for so many years. This is your future if you don’t walk away now Kim. I too, was the what Nat calls “Madonna beard” in that we had stopped having sex ages ago but I was still the most “girfriend like” and “well-treated” of the lot. When I first entered the harem , when we were actually dating for a few months ,I remember encountering ex Harem Madonna a few times, she was a thorn in my side as I was trying to date this guy and she would show up to his shows and try and throw her “I’ve been in this harem longer than you ” weight around and I was always so embarrassed for her. At the time the EUM started dating me he had decided to “try for something real” so had to sometimes publicly ignore or snub her when she did something like ask that he drive her home or get a drink for her, when I was right there! She was still adjusting to his sudden change in not jumping to her every beat like he used to when he was only casually dating girls now that he was trying to “seriously” date someone ( me) . It was rather pathetic to watch her please never be this girl, Kim cos “you’re in danger” of it.
Eventually, my relationship with the EUM ended when he realized he had overestimated his capacity for a relationship and I eased into a role similar to ex-Harem Queen where I was this girl he had come the closest to not being an EUM with ( Duchess of Highest Order of The Crumbs). I remember ex-Queen just sort of disappearing and a small but not mean feeling of relief that she wasn’t around to complicate my life anymore.I have to admit a kind of weird feeling that I had “won” over her cos I was still there and she was not.
But what exactly had I won by taking her position over? Absolutely nothing. I found Nat’s blog two years into being Harem Madonna virgin Queen , I had been dating others etc but I was still hanging out with the EUM all the time, I was his go-to if he needed a date to something “girlfriendy” he couldn’t take his booty calls or when his parents were in town etc . It was quite comfortable really, we got on and I tried to stay out of the social scene where his booty calls would go . I wouldn’t go to his shows and we would meet in “my world” and in daylight and in proper “dates” rather than his booty calls who stalked his shows and he slept with them after. And then what happened to ex-Harem Queen happened to me! He decided again for the first time since me to date seriously. He broke it to me during a dinner date and explained that of course our dandy platonic brunch club could no longer continue as he wanted to try for real with her. I still cannot explain why it hit me so hard. I mean, I had watched him sleep with tons of booty call girls and I hadn’t even a hint of jealousy but that hit me hard. Luckily, I outwardly accepted it gracefully, remembering how ex-Harem Queen had acted a right fool when I came into his life. After his “try for real” again failed after six months , haha i wonder why, we picked up where we left of except this girl was now kind of my Deputy Queen. I never met her but I knew he met up with her in the same non-sexual kind of way he met up with me. She was also a former “serious candidate”so I guess we filled the Madonna role in his life to counter the booty calls . Because I had been reading Nat during the time he was dating new Madonna it took me less than a month to to finally take charge of my life and walk out of what was becoming a laughable mess ( I “ghosted” him after a very pleasant brunch) even though he was totally great to me,by the end of I was actually being treated “better” than when I was an actual romantic candidate.
I ran into ex-Harem Queen( “crazy” one before me) last year and we got talking, we had no hostility despite the awkward circumstances we had first come to know each other. I found out that in the two years she had dropped off from the harem, and I had felt she “lost” she had totally changed her life and was now in a real, loving , committed relationship. All the while I was feeling like I had a good deal in her old job she was out starting a multi-billion dollar startup on her own terms. We really bonded on how light life felt now that EUM’s bullshit and drama were NOT OUR PROBLEM anymore. I didn’t have to read up on therapies that might help him, I didn’t have to talk and cajole him out of his funks only to have him go off and sleep with his booty calls once he was all pumped up again by me , I didn’t have to teach a grown man how to be a friend again and again , he was just NOT my problem anymore and made more progress in the months after I was completely NC from him than in the preceding 3 years I was reading Nat’s blog but still interacting with that emotional black hole.
Get out now before he forces your hand, and it won’t nearly be as satisfying. You can do better than this , Kim.
Wow. That sounds exactly like what I’m doing. The only difference is that my EUM’s harem is very small and the women he chases around generally have no time for him. I keep hoping it will be ME that finds someone else and walks away for a change…I have less than no desire to get “the talk” once he finds someone he wants to try with “for real”, and I know that is where things are headed eventually. I even told him as much lol! He was very offended that I could think that of him! But I know that this situation cannot continue forever. We see each other at least five times a week, and obviously that is not going be acceptable to anyone that either of us might date seriously. That being said, I will be very VERY lonely without him, since my social circle has been shrinking over the past few years (it’s not related to him at all…it was shrinking long before we met) and I often felt very lonely before he entered the picture. It was starting to consume me. I couldn’t find a job, so I was home day and night by myself, and I couldn’t afford to do things with my friends. I guess I was ripe for the picking, so to speak. And I am very afraid of returning to that chronic emptiness.
So are you staying with him?
I have had little more than 12 hours since I read Natalie’s reply. I would like to think about it before I decide anything.
I find that interesting. I had so much passion to explain why you needed to leave. Thanks for your response. I have a lot less interest to tell you (or try to convince you) as to what to do. Take care of yourself.
Adele, Rome was not built in a day. I tend to be a conservative person that (over) thinks about things before making decisions. Cutting a person out of my life is a very heavy decision because I do not recant. Once someone is out of my life, they are absolutely dismissed in every way, shape, and form. I do not treat that sort of thing lightly.
Kim,
You’re not single-handedly building a city brick by brick, or performing brain surgery. Your only challenge is to cut someone who’s pretty clearly using you out of your life.
And the only thing difficult about that is your own attachment. That’s what you have to examine. Actually cutting him out of your life is dead easy. Your own resistance is all that makes it hard.
You might also want to look at why you think that not having you in his life would be some sort of “punishment” for him. You aren’t responsible for him. I hope you’re not in some sort of mommy role here. If you are, that’s one more reason to run.
our harem was not that large at any given time most three or so, not that it matters and we can’t count the girls who dropped out from sheer exhaustion/finally getting a clue who came way before us!
keep reading this blog Kim, my life is not “chronically empty” now that I am focusing on me. it has been tough to actually get to know myself at age 28 it is sometimes really hard, but better late than never. i am no social butterfly but i really worked on improving the quality of the few relationships i did have and i feel better about them than before.
would you seriously consider dating a guy who told you he sees his ex casual fling five times a week and sometimes they cuddle? exactly. so why should any stable guy consider you? every moment you spend in this mess makes you unavailable for someone who has their shit together cos noone who does would willingly walk into that messiness.heck, even friends who have their shit together wouldn’t actively seek out the friendship of a woman (who they aren’t bonded to by growing up together or some other past circumstance) who seems to have a high tolerance for bullshit and drama. some friends you have known for a long time, who have had your back through some hard times, you can cut more slack for but even that has limits. you see how you are keeping yourself stuck in the mud by surrounding yourself with emotionally immature pigs? they say you are the combination of the five people you spend the most time with , it should matter to you the quality of those people’s character. the years are rolling by you, when are you going to start your real life instead of hiding out at the peripheries of someone else’s?
Kim,
Embrace the chronic loneliness if you have to. I am in my thirties, childless, broke, unemployed, out of school, undergoing treatment for mental illness and live in a crappy apartment where it’s a good day if I don’t get sexually harassed by a 69-yr-old neighbor or have to chase a giant roach around my apartment.
I have no friends.
None. At all.
I grew up in an abusive home (mom died of mental illness when I was 14 and father was an absent alcoholic). I was attracted awful people that used me (this guy is using you) most of my life until I said Enough. And I walked away from everyone who refused to treat me with basic dignity and respect. And you know what?
I am happy.
I’m starting to see this crack of light that is surrounding me because I know I have an out. And my out?
Taking care of me and refusing to settle for sub par behavior.
Yes, right now I am chronically alone. But I have learned to relish it and use it wisely; I give my elderly dog the best care I can possibly fathom, I create art, I teach myself music, I sing… I watch amazing movies, I journal, I read books by strong and wise women. Simply put , I simply get better and heal myself so that I am strong for the good people that come my way.
Also I was single for 98% of my twenties and don’t regret a minute of it.
You sound amazing, Jennifer!!!
Your story sounds a little like mine right now. Unemployed, not in school, not in a position to frivolously spend money on social activities…I even have an elderly dog lol! I do have three or four friends (outside of EUM) but I do not see them very often; they are quite busy with their lives. EUM is my primary social outlet, especially because he lives very close by and does not have a significant other. We watch movies and TV most evenings, and we go grocery shopping together and to different social events (that he pays for, since I am not working). Most of it is normal friend stuff. The idea of returning to the painful social isolation I experienced for years is very scary to me. I definitely love my alone time, and I have no trouble doing things on my own, but every day and night for months on end…it’s hard enough not to feel like I belong anywhere, since I do not have my own family and I do not seem to make close friends easily, but the endless social isolation combined with my propensity for clinical depression is very harmful for me. Maybe I need to really spend some time working on my self-esteem.
This killed me (in a good way). You gals are on fire with this thread!
Excellent reply but like a punch in the stomach! I did this for 5 years and your words Natalie hurt like fire, I don’t know where to look first! I am now in No Contact-actually No Contact, not the one where it kind of is not that all-for a month and I am hoping that the good memories will slowly fade like old photographs and what will remain is my self-respect and my zest for reclaiming my dignity.
Hi, Anastasia. When I discovered BR, the truths I read hurt so much I had to walk away from my laptop and catch my breath.
Welcome to the club.
Can’t you see Natalie as “Mrs. Roarke”, in a sharp white pantsuit, saying “Welcome to No-Fantasy Island!”
Wow…boy did I need this today!
I haven’t been on here for a while as I have been busy settling into another city and starting a new long held dream of mine.
I have also been working on letting go of dubious situations from my life, specifically relationship ones.
So a guy I have immense sexual attraction with but who has a gf continues to chase me, but I have been strong and stuck to no contact for over a month now.
In that space of time I have been talking everyday to a guy I made friends with over a year ago. We talked about everything, but it only got mildly flirty once. I finally decided that it was all very mixed signally and so I worked up the courage to ask him if he was interested in dating…low and behold he says there is no “chemistry” – so why on earth has he been wanting to talk to me everyday for???!!!!!
I have not got time for these kinds of men in my life anymore. I want a real relationship. I think when you are really ready for something real, it becomes a no brainer to walk away from situations like this.
Maybe he just liked you as a human being and friend? I know I have chatted with men for a long time and not wanted to go to bed with them, it didn’t mean I didn’t like them as people. It seems like maybe it was YOU who wasn’t being on the up and up here? Seemingly okay with a friendship but deep down wanting and expecting more and then being angry when you didn’t get it?
“You haven’t realised yet that because you’re great, he would rather have you on some [manipulated] terms rather than none. Too scared and self-involved to be with you, too scared and self-involved to not be. Now he’s put you on layaway so that no one else gets near you–you do realise that you’re unavailable now? ”
This perfectly describes the last six months of my life with a man who was separated (not really) from a spouse who lives in another state. I opted out of this messed up “relationship” this week when he left for a week-long vacation with her. His parting words were “It’s just sex with her. I really love YOU.”
What the hell was I thinking when I jumped into this with both feet?
This thread is making me think. And laugh. It’s making me laugh, you ladies are great.
Ok. Kim – is talking a word salad. We talk these when we are full of it and deceiving ourselves. This is the saddest deception and I’ve made this my bright line – the worst partners are those that are deceiving themselves, they will also likely deceive you and they tend to do things that they have no explanation for. You: yes but why did you do that, how could you do that…
Them: dunno
I was in a harem. I thought HE had a harem and I was the gf, but really he was recruiting me for it. What’s strange is that I was the real gf – the others were either keeping him in THEIR harem or had no idea that they were in a harem because behind their backs he talked about being in love with them etc but not to their faces (this was married woman w integrity. The married woman without integrity was in his harem knowingly and he in hers). He did something unforgivable and we broke up. And then lost touch. I too don’t stay in touch with exes. But with him sometimes I feel bad – like I was the one female friend / partner that he doesn’t care to be in touch with. But this thread is setting me right – I think he did that unforgivable thing to either sabotage the relationship or downgrade me from gf to harem or both. If I had stuck around, I would have agreed that he has a right to a harem and then I would be in it. He knew that I would call him on his rubbish and so mutually we went our separate ways.
Interestingly he always went on and on to me about his platonic but boundary busting harem. But the harem queen did not know about me – me, the closest thing to a gf he had in years. Fascinating isn’t it. I knew about harem queen, he wouldn’t stop talking about her. He told the other harem members about me – especially the ones who had no harem interest in him. But harem queen – it was like he was more faithful to her than to his actual gf.
I did not realize how many of us get into these situations, where the men put us on “layaway”.
Apparently a LOT of men want to have a “harem”, or “sister wives”, or whatever you want to call it. At any point in time, one of the harem members is the queen, while the others are there to service him.
That is such a bull%h1t situation for the women involved. Maybe I’d think differently if the man was actually providing food/clothing/shelter/upkeep/retirement income/emotional sustenance for all the women involved, but typically the man is not providing anything but his body.
And women hold on out of fear of being alone. And yes, men are afraid of being alone, too. Why are so many of us so afraid of being alone? What is it in being “alone” that brings on such tremendous fear?
I’m not talking about the fear of being a crime victim…I get that…and living alone gets risky for everyone as they age…predators seek out the single weak one – watch any nature show and you see that the one who gets attacked is the one who got separated from the pack and is standing alone.
I’m trying to understand, for myself, what are the underlying messages we are reacting to, that makes us hold on to “nothing” relationships because somewhere we believe that this “nothing” is better than being alone. Is it embarassment because if we don’t have a man then that means no one ever thought we were good enough? Embarassed in whose eyes? Who put that message in our brains that someone else’s opinion is more worthy than our own?
I am not involved in any external relationship right now. I’ve ghosted the last EUM pseudo-friendship I had been tending. Lately, I’ve been forced to deal with my father due to his poor knee and bad finances, and I notice that even the smallest time spent in his company leaves me reeling with depressive thoughts for a few days. I see that he is a sad, unkind man who invalidates people with every utterance, no matter what the subject. So I’m thinking that something in my upbringing has made me live a small life, devoid of intimate relationships, devoid of caring connections, rife with caretaking of others. And I am thinking that those of us who cling to “nothing” relationships might find answers to our folly by examining the scripts we lived while growing up.
But I am on the accelerated ‘build-my-self-esteem’ plan…I am much older and very aware that time marches on quickly. I double-down on writing affirmations after spending time with my Dad. I catch myself before going down that rabbit hole of depression and let go of what I cannot change. I do hear that song playing in my brain “I wish that I knew what I know now, when I was younger”, but I counter that with the thought that it is ALWAYS better to win in the end. So, while my life up to now has been riddled with some poor choices, I ain’t gotta stay there. My do-over has begun.
Elgie R., you ask some very good questions about the fear of being alone. I don’t understand it, either. I’ve actually had two different men offer marriage. I turned both down due to what I still feel are very valid reasons. I have been single for four years and I can honestly say that I love being single! I have lots of friends and have built a career that involves a lot of dealing with people. I rarely feel lonely. Would I like to have another relationship in my life? Sure, but I also acknowledge that my life is fine as it is. I have food and shelter, my bills are paid, working vehicle, job I enjoy, lots of friends, and family nearby. Nothing wrong with this picture. What is it in society that makes some women think being single is the worst thing that can befall them? Far from it. I have worked with adults with severe mental and physical disabilities, acquired brain injuries that leave them unable to care for themselves. Totally dependent on others. I have seen kids in my treatment centers that come from severely abusive and broken homes that have never had even their basic needs met, malnourished, no dental care, etc. I get that we all want to love and be loved. We all want to have a mutual love relationship in our lives (including me), but there are so many worse fates than being single.
The man described sounds like a classic narcissist.
Great advice Natalie!! Kim is extremely co-dependent, and this guy is a colossal a**hole. I’m sorry, but he *let* her to believe they were together. Then things end and supposedely they remain “close friends”. Close friends don’t end up in bed naked together. And yet he’s afraid of losing her. Losing what exactly? He’s screwing other people, knowing that she wants him and has deep feelings for him. He has no care in the world for her feelings, that’s not what a close friend is. I hope Kim finds some shred of self-esteem that’s left inside of her and gets out of this situation. It’s not a good sight for a woman to be a beggar Kim, you need to get therapy for your co-dependency. Hugs to you Kim.
OMG, thank you SO much for this post, it definitely opened up my eyes to my own situation.
I have been in this friendship with this woman who didn’t want to be my girlfriend but deep down I keep feeling like something’s wrong. I first approached her because I was interested in getting to know her with the purpose of a romantic relationship, but after she told me she was 100% straight I decided I couldn’t punish her for not having the same sexuality as me and therefore I should still be friends with her.
Fast forward some months, I am the one lifting her up from a deep depression, paying for her dinner, making sure she’s doing fine. We share very intimate details of our lives to each other. She keeps saying that she thinks a lot about me, invited me to go out on Valentine’s Day (and also sent me her “Happy Valentine’s day” wishes multiple times), and some other things that to be honest, feel pretty much ambiguous at best.
I was thinking to myself that I was just friends with her and but after reading this, I wonder what the hell I am getting out of this situation since I know she’s straight and genuinely don’t expect her to change that ever. Somehow, I keep feeling that me telling myself we can be friends takes lying to oneself to a whole new level.
But also… Your friend knows you are not straight and is potentially using YOUR ambiguous feelings to her own advantage. Is she taking you to dinner helping you with depression or anything? This is too much for a few months friendship because she knows that your boundaries might be wobbly. When I think a male friend might be interested and I’m not, I build firmer boundaries. This is a kindness to them and to me – I don’t want to create drama or create a false impression.
Hi Suki,
it has been about 5 months since we first met each other. Everything took place kinda fast. I do think she takes advantage of me — my friends had warned me about how she’s using me as an emotional crutch. I don’t think she’s home right now thinking about how to use me, but whatever inner-child wounds and her EU-ness do the job by themselves. I wonder why I tend to be so forgiving when I think the person doesn’t do it on purpose.
Also it’s quite obvious that I am a people pleaser. I really like to help people out and probably would have helped her to some extent anyway — but it’s obvious I wouldn’t do *this* much if I weren’t that emotionally invested. The ridiculous part (and that’s part of my realization with this post) is that I am doing the friendship for both of us. I am the one literally giving while she only takes. She says she wants to be there for me — but rarely is the first one to get in touch. I don’t think that’s a depression issue.
Oh, the lack of boundaries when it comes to this has been remarkable. And when I tried to put one boundary there (“don’t tell me about your dates”) she just burst it in less than two weeks after I said it. I didn’t ask for anything else.
But seriously, between the Valentine’s day BS and this post, I definitely do need to seriously stop and consider all this crap. It just can’t keep going on, but I don’t know how to cut someone that I really care about from my life.
Sometimes our help is also about controlling other people. I have been trying for a while not to be very helpful except in serious friendships which for me is 10 plus years. Because without knowing people well you don’t know this friendship is going to pan out.
You have too much too soon. And it’s imbalanced and and and… Also the boundary ‘don’t tell me about your dates’ is problematic. Here’s the thing – if a friend, which by definition means platonic, cannot tell you about their dates, then this is not a friendship. You all are not friends. I don’t know about her thoughts. I think you see her as girlfriend in waiting or unrequited girlfriend or ex girlfriend even though you were never together. This is not friends.
It goes back to Kim. If you have ‘friends’and you are keeping tabs or jealous etc about who your friends are sleeping with —- that is not a friendship. It’s simple. You are not her romantic girlfriend nor are you her platonic girlfriend or friend. You are an ambiguous crutch and you are both controlling each other in subtle ways.
Something that really helped me to get over my EUMS, and I had two, unfortunately, was something my roommate said. He might like you, but he does not like you enough.
That’s the funny thing. Rejection can make you feel worthless, and when he doesn’t have sex with you, that’s rejecting a chance at intimacy. That’s rejecting you. Why do you want to keep hanging out with someone who keeps rejecting a part of you? That is hurting you, and I don’t think the friendship that he provides is enough for you to overlook the pain he is causing. I think intimacy is important to most of us. It’s not like a small weird quirk, such as leaving the toilet seat up. It’s a part of our human essence. He is not rejecting intimacy with you because you are not worthy. It’s because he doesn’t like you enough. Maybe he’s even afraid to be vulnerable. But if he is and he’s not making an effort to change by himself, he’s putting protection of his vulnerability above his friendship/relationship with you. Once again, that’s a sign that he doesn’t like you enough. He likes protecting himself more.
It’s hard to break habits, but perhaps you need to put some distance between you and him to break this hurtful friendship habit. It’s going to hurt, unfortunately, but it may hurt less than it currently does now. At least, that’s what happened in my experiences. In the long run, it hurt more to stay in contact with them than it did to let them go.
Gals I just ran this scenario (the nude sleeping together but no sex part) by a couple of guy friends and they both agree the guy must be gay. He is either lying about all of these other women or he is sleeping with them, but just as beards.
That said, having sex with a man is not necessarily an indicator that he is NOT gay – and I speak as someone who was with a closeted gay man for 10 years and we had sex fairly regularly.
Kim, I think your ego is taking a beating here for no reason. Move along and find a guy who can’t keep his hands off you.
FWIW, my ruminating over everyone’s advice finally hit home. Day two of NC. It’s easier than I expected so far, I guess because this has been coming for a while. I’m sure I won’t feel wonderful every day, but I’m taking steps to broaden my social circle, and I keep telling myself that every minute I spend away from him makes me stronger. If nothing else, I am in desperate need of some distance and perspective, and I fully intend to give myself the gift of sanity lol.
Thanks to everyone for the reality check. I wish I could have you and Natalie on speed dial!