“Women only want flashy guys with lots of money who mess them around.”
“Dating websites/apps are full of shallow/shady people and people don’t go out anymore.”
“Men in their thirties, forties, fifties and beyond are only interested in [women who are younger than me].”
“All everyone wants to do is screw around and never commit.”
“I’m not gonna find love. It’s too hard and I can’t afford to get hurt again.”
“Whether I go out with men or women, this whole dating thing is impossible.”
This is just a selection of the very common objections that I hear from men and women who are dating and trying to forge relationships. Sometimes I’ll have someone use several of these objections in quick succession.
Let’s forget about romantic relationships for a moment and pretend that we’re talking about applying for a job.
“There are no decent jobs left.”
“Employers only want [people who are very different to me].”
“Recruitment websites/apps are only full of crap jobs and companies don’t really advertise jobs anymore.”
“No matter what age I am, employers are looking for someone younger.”
“All companies only want to offer zero-hour contracts.”
“I’m never going to find a job/a job I love. It’s too hard and I can’t afford to get rejected/disappointed again.”
“No matter what job I do and how I do it, this whole seeking employment thing is impossible.”
Does this sound like someone who wants to get a job, who believes that that they can and will get a job eventually? Some of these objections sound like excuses not to even bother trying to look for a job or to stay in a job while complaining about it.
What type of energy do you think that this person would bring to their job search? Would they feel optimistic with awareness that it might not be easy and that there would undoubtedly be effort and disappointments involved, or would they be heavy-hearted with lots of negative chatter crowding in? How would this sense of defeat affect which jobs they applied for or how they come across in an interview? Is this person open or closed to the possibility of finding a job that resonates with them?
Our relationships begin even before we meet the person we become involved with. Our relationships are founded on the one we have with ourselves and this means that we have to consider the thoughts that we feed us and the way that we treat ourselves.
The person who says they’re looking for a job while already having written off the possibilities, has made up their mind in advance and this has a significant impact on what comes next. It’s the same with dating.
All of the above dating beliefs tell you about the way these people feel about themselves. They tell the story of past experiences that they’re fearful of recreating.
If you have already decided that you’re not going to find love or have decided that there are no decent available partners left, why are you on a dating website or app? Why are you trying to meet people while out and about? What is the purpose?
Are you dating and proceeding into relationships because you feel as if it’s what you ‘should’ do even though you don’t want to?
Are you doing it to get you off your own back so that when it all goes wrong you can tell you that you were right that it’s a waste of time or that you’re not ‘good enough’?
There is no point in dating from this place. You’ve already made up your mind. You’re looking to confirm not to be open to learning or truly participating.
You’re either dragging your feet to dating like the teenager that doesn’t want to go to family functions and passive-aggressively participates or you’re punishing you for what you feel is wrong with you and that’s a bloody awful way to treat you.
Think about it: If you already think that dating sucks, that the Dating Apocalypse came and wiped out every decent available partner, and that basically, you don’t stand a chance, are you going to be open-minded, dating with awareness, and showing up or, are you going to be skeptical, guarded, and wary of putting ‘too much’ of you into it? This all affects the type of partner you will settle for.
People who don’t rate their chances or who think that the dating pool is full of low quality partners, lower their boundaries and standards to accommodate this thought process, which inadvertently reaffirms the negative beliefs and puts them in a vicious cycle. They set themselves up to fail.
If you don’t end up settling for less, you might become jaded and even terrified of dating after too many bad experiences and avoid it, or you will feel at odds with people who don’t chime with the beliefs that you have. This means that you might meet somebody who on some level you recognise fits with your pattern and beliefs but then proceed anyway as a means of trying to be the exception to the rule and then feel wounded, or because you feel attached to how you see things, write off someone different to your pattern as “boring” or “too nice” or “lacking chemistry/passion”.
Before you write off love, relationships and yourself, take a good look at your relationship pattern and acknowledge where there are similarities either in how your partners act, the circumstances in how you meet, how the relationship unfolds, the way that you act, think and feel around them, and whether this reflects any similarities with a parent/caregiver or even a past bully.
Patterns always have a ‘type’ in there so running into problem after problem with your type is life’s way of telling you that whoever you’re chasing in one package (and possibly trying to right the wrongs of the past with), it isn’t for you. Whether it’s someone else’s vision for you or the manifestation of what you’re trying to avoid or reclaim from the past, repeatedly being involved with variations of the same person and/or experiencing variations of the same habits of thinking, feeling and behaviour, is a message from life telling you to let go of your type and what you think a relationship partner looks like. It’s telling you to let go and expand. It’s telling you to ‘correct’ your assumptions and beliefs.
It doesn’t mean that you won’t encounter disappointments with dating but instead of feeling wounded that you haven’t been on your last date, you know that you have let go of what isn’t right for you so that you can be available for what is.
Your thoughts?
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Hi Natalie,
A simple sweet message – well written and enticing … I shall keep this for some clients AND to revisit myself when I’ve had one too many ‘bad’ relationship stories through my counselling door!
Cheers, tess
All excellent advice! This quote in particular:
“… take a good look at your relationship pattern and acknowledge where there are similarities either in how your partners act, the circumstances in how you meet, how the relationship unfolds, the way that you act, think and feel around them”
This really resonated with me. I have a tendency to dash headlong into liking (or for the most part, lusting) over someone and become too involved before I truly know them. Whilst a bit of fun is fine (so long as everyone knows the rules) it isn’t exactly a solid base and has led me to date a couple of Jekyll and Hyde characters with multiple red flags that I put up with just in case it was going to work out which it invariably didn’t.
I’ve come to realise that and it is asking myself the questions above and being truly honest with myself which made me finally understand my patterns and what impact they have on ME.
Since I’ve acknowledged this I’ve met a lovely guy through work and am finding it so nice to just see what happens. When he passes through the office I just so happen to be about to make coffee and offer him a cup. More often than not he takes me up on the offer – today we sat having a chin wag for a good 20 minutes and it was great. I had to stop the tipsy flirty me from doing a number on him last Friday – I withdrew from the potential route and left whilst I was still enjoying the party. Then I realised I’d done it partly because I don’t want whatever comes out of liking this new guy and I don’t want it to be ruined or made awkward by my mad rush tendencies. BREAKTHROUGH.
Me looking after me led to this guy coming along, I reckon. He’s my test case for being boundaried, learning about myself and him, what we like (Star Wars. Lots of Star Wars) and and don’t like (cheap vodka and cigarette smoke) and being open-minded.
We’ll see what happens but I’ve definitely changed for the better since reading your advice 🙂
‘..learning about myself and him, what we like (Star Wars. Lots of Star Wars)’
That’s sweet, here’s hoping it works out for you.
Thanks Magpie! We had another 20 minute chat over coffee today (I may have accidentally found myself in the kitchenette just as he turned the kettle on… Convenient 😉 ) this time about motorbikes and cars. Genuinely haven’t engaged in the introduction part of a “potential relationship” in ages and it is so much fun. I’d forgotten!
Hi Nat, I have written to you in the past but this one is especially important. I heard a quote yesterday saying, “focus on you until the focus is on you.” Simply and nicely said! I finally had my breakthrough yesterday that I’m attracted to emotionally unavailable men aka assclowns, aka jerks. Guys that honestly don’t care about me. That’s a hard realization sometimes but it’s finally true. Whether they acted like they did, they have not been consistent and they haven’t shown me that they deserve to be in my life so I have to let it go. Learning to let go and not be sad to not have anyone to talk to, lust after etc. has been eye opening. I seem to go after what I can’t have, or as a test to myself, or feel that I can’t have the ultimate guy without suffering, or compromising.
Not sure where that streak comes from but I’m ultimately setting myself up for a loss, and as you wrote recently in a Facebook post, feeling that you walked away from some sort of chemistry or attraction. That’s what it feels like.. but I’m remembering to put me first and that doesn’t mean giving myself a hot guy or being available to someone who seems too good to be true!!
Being good to yourself actually means using my head and realizing these people are only looking for exactly that.. attention.. and maybe that’s the root of my desire as well.
Funny how that works.
Thanks Nat for your post and I hope to get better at putting “me” and my intentions first instead of trying to fill a void.
Hello Natalie…very well written and informative as usual. I have a peculiar problem though. I used to be very needy and get overly attached quite quickly. Now, I’ve done lots of work on myself and pretty much exercised the demons that used to haunt me and my relationships. The problem is that now, I’ve done so much work and have truly faced my inner self and acknowledged all the pain that was there and overcame it. Since then I just haven’t been the same I’m not pessimistic about dating and love I’m just completely indifferent. I want to be the old me that loved love and wanted to fall in love but I’m just not the same anymore and it creeps me out. I love myself soooooo much now and I just can’t settle for anything anymore. I want to be able to be excited about love again.
Indifference indicates a lack of interest. Romantic highs are often based in fantasy and promises, and when you finally decide to deal in reality, it’s hard if you previously lived for the “chase”. Did you live for the chase?
Is it more exciting to “hope” someone will want you than it is to actively engage in the discovery phase and discard those who play fast-forward future-faking dole-out-crumbs games?
Coming from a place of indifference might be good..I think I am somewhat indifferent too, except I do know that I am keeping my eyes peeled for a man who is available to me…open in manner, not attached….interested in me and interesting to me. I won’t be easily swayed by the charm gamers now. I know I can recognize the moves of men who want to sweep me off my feet, or those who are “sport flirting”. I’m in no rush and I am very wary of men who are in a rush to be “in love”.
Agreed, Elgie R. – I could’ve written this myself! The game players are so obvious to me now that I’ve read Mr Unavailable. There were plenty of books on how women could heal themselves (Women Who Love Too Much, Obsessive Love, etc), but there wasn’t anything out there that listed all of the traits of the different types of Mr Unavailables. I’m so grateful for that book, and to Natalie for this site and the courses. I can spot the beginning of a game immediately now, even in people I knew years ago and didn’t know what was going on (back then).
And I was so impatient with myself, wishing I’d grow, but now I can see that I have, and I’m not quite ready to share my new-found self with anyone but my equal. Maybe not even then…
A big eye opener for me recently has been the fast-forwarding aspect. I am back dating after having taken a year to myself and I am on an internet dating site. After two incidents of feeling rushed, I had to look at my own tendencies for fast forwarding. Believe me, I wanted to quit and give up and say all the things Nat described in this post. But I am looking at the big picture and I really do want to find a healthy partner. So I did some soul searching about what made me feel uncomfortable wirh these 2 guys recently and what triggered the fast forwarding in me.
So I tweaked my profile and changed my position about meeting and initial conversations. For me, giving out my phone number too soon, texting and having phone conversations before we’ve even met, is now out-of-the-qustion. It creates a false level of intimacy that hasn’t been earned or warranted.
When I set this boundary and limit for myself, it helped me relax. I am not jolted by interruptions on my phone from “strangers”. I feel calmer and more peaceful about approaching my dating life. It helps me feel more in the driver’s seat about my process of getting to know people.
When I let myself set this boundary, I found other limits I wanted to have too. It was like giving myself permission to speak up for what I want.
If I don’t, then I feel pushed into a raging river of online dating with no paddles. My boundaries have become my paddles in negotiating this territory.
Wow, Wendy!!! What great wisdom on boundary-setting. I only online dated one guy, and I felt fast-forwarded by him as well. We even had phone sex before we’d even met (I’m ashamed to admit that I wasn’t boundaried enough to end the conversation, or the rather sick and codependent relationship that ensued). I would never, ever, allow that to happen again, so it was a great, but steep, learning curve for me.
After my experience with that guy (it went on, long-distance, for 9 months), I gave up on dating and read some more books, healed some more childhood issues, found Mr Unavailable and realised I was definitely the Fallback Girl, and here I am – feeling more content with my singledom than I ever have. And actually asking for what I want, and no longer accepting disrespect, game-playing, emotional manipulation, fast-forwarding, etc. from anyone, including potential friends.
Boundaries are so important, and I was a boundaryless person – bouncing around like flotsam in someone else’s sea. No more of that! It feels so empowering, doesn’t it?
Just what recently divorced me needed to hear. I’m still not quite ready to date as I am deep in the process of rediscovering me. But there are some things that I needed to hear and that will help me understand who I am – namely about correcting my assumptions and beliefs about what I want/need in a future partner.
The problem can be friends as well, reinforcing negative messages about finding relationships – for example over a certain age (40s) there are ‘no good men left’. What I try to repeat when I hear this from one particular friend is that if I’m in that age bracket and I’m pretty cool, well there must be a male version of me out there!
Having a break is really good advice for anyone feeling/or saying such things, as Natalie says why are you out there looking for love if you think it’s impossible, or you won’t find it?
Now looking back I can see that I believed some of these ideas, felt them on a deep level, but wasn’t aware that I did. This is much worse, but now I can see why I had so many problems (on some level I needed to go through these issues … but I wish that I hadn’t spent four years in a no-future relationship that caused a huge amount of suffering).
One thing though I think that the whole online dating thing has made things much much more difficult for all age groups in terms of fast-forwarding and lack of commitment (for women and men). It’s hard not to feel attached when you’re getting all this positive attention with someone you hardly know, or don’t know at all.
I only started “dating myself” in the last few years. By that I mean treating myself with respect and care. I learned why I always ended up dating narcissists, cheaters and assclowns: I was attracted to them! Not anymore.
I’m not a member of any particular religion but I believe in God.
I definitely want to meet someone and fall in love for good– with a good person. That’s why I asked God to hook me up instead of doing it myself. Will it happen? So far God’s has been good to me, so I think it’s pretty likely. 🙂
Karen, are you sure I didn’t write that? I feel that way quite often on this site – I guess a lot of us are working through the same issues.
Yes, I believe in God too – there have been too many occasions of help from a higher source not to. I’m not religious either, but God is the true love of my life, so I already feel filled up. I’ve been dating myself too, and I’ve been working on becoming the person *I* would want to date if the shoe was on the other foot (so to speak). I’m becoming that person… It sounds like you are too.
I also asked God to choose *for* me, as I haven’t done a very good job of choosing men for myself (or friends, for that matter). So far, I’ve realised that I’m perfectly content with being by myself, and that my purpose may be more spiritual than social. I don’t mind if I never marry, but I’m trying to stay open to it, just so I don’t block something that may enrich my life. I’m more into ‘allowing’ now, instead of trying to make things happen.
I believe we each have a Divine Blueprint, and that the way to find it is to go inside, and to keep digging and letting go of all the projected stuff, and old belief systems, until we find our true selves – our Divine Selves. Today, I wrote in my feelings diary/journal that I believe I’m on the right track… That feels so exciting to me!
Having said all that, I watched the overly-dramatised and sentimental Downton Abbey on DVD last night, and now I want to marry a guy like Bertie (only my age, so maybe more like Isabel’s Lord Merton). God, I’m fickle!!! But, after having read a couple more of the comments on here, I know I have to keep telling myself that there really are some lovely, kind, grown-up men in the world – and not just in print (Mr Darcy), or in television series. And what would it be like to be in an equal partnership with one of them?
I’m saving up for a course now because I just feel totally lost in my life right now. I feel unfixable.
I hear you!
I felt like that too, Sparkle, only a few months ago. I’d been working on myself for decades, and yet I felt there was something broken deep inside me that I couldn’t get at. When I’d try to find it, it would kind of shapeshift, so I couldn’t grasp it. Then I enrolled in Natalie’s Inner Voice, Inner Critic (that’s not the full name) course, and I found ‘the thing’ – it was my inner critic, in all its guises.
I felt like I’d been given the key to the cupboard that contained the Holy Grail. It’s been tough going, though, and I have gotten to a place where I’m in teenage-mode, self-saboutaging and procrastinating with myself as though I’m the parent telling my younger self to go mow the lawn or clean my room, or something! But the course is set out so well, you can print out all of the material and download audio to listen to, and you have six months of support while you work through everything. So, I’m taking my time to get to the bottom of it all…
And, no matter how difficult it feels at the moment to work through some old hurts, I still feel freer and happier than I have in years – because now I can *see* it, I can deal with it. It’s only the hidden stuff that makes us feel unfixable.
So, yes, save up and do one of the courses – I thoroughly recommend the one where you get to know and let go of your inner critic/s (aka the voices of your parents, teachers, snarky siblings, etc). Good luck!
This past year has been challenging in assessing my life direction, authenticity, level of integrity, and loving myself. A break up catapulted me into really investigating these things and living my values. I feel like things are coming along in many aspects of my life except the partner aspect. This time has felt particularly lonely as I find I am by myself a lot. I had embraced this for a while, nurturing myself and enjoying interests on my own. But after many experiences, I have come to a point where I would really like to share different ones with a (romantic) partner. I have an active life, social circle, and an amazing support system otherwise. But again, I would like companionship (most of my friends are paired off).
This leads me to say, I have gone on 12 first dates this year. (Never happened before in my life). At the end of about 7 of these dates, we expressed to having a nice time and looking forward to a second. Most either never contacted or contacted but never followed through on making a second date. I have even gone to the extent of making communication happen to not just leave it up to the guy. There were indeed several that I just found no connection. And just 2 men actually were honest, and told me they didn’t feel a connection.
My question: How to keep positive in this state of dating?? I have learned not to take things personally (this was an insecurity lesson for me). I also realize that we all can just change our minds for whatever reason. I typically believe someone when they make statements of mutual interest. But how do I NOT get to a point where dating feels a bit defeating when most people I have encountered were not in action to their words?? I have a hard time believing at this point. I have even taken a break because this process reminds me of my lack of romantic companionship.
I’ve made similar experiences but came to the conclusion that not believing I’ll ever find a partner won’t help me either. Giving up doesn’t help me either. But taking a break when dating feels overwhelming is good, sometimes we need breaks, especially when we got disappointed that often.
Keep believing though, or otherwise you create a sefl-fullfilling prophecy right when you meet the right guy and that would be unfortunate, wouldn’t it?
I’ve come to the point where I also think even IF I don’t ever find a partner, I don’t really care. I see all the couples and not all, actually most of them aren’t happy together… having a partner doesn’t mean you’re happy, it just means you have a partner. And I’d rather be with one who’s honestly interested in me than with someone just to have someone – like so many people do… they pair up with someone just not to be alone and you can guess the outcome of that.
Also, with all the jerks running around, probably it’s not that bad to be alone. But that doesn’t mean it’ll be this way forever. Honestly, how likely is it that in ten years time we haven’t ever bumped into someone that feels right for us? Not very likely actually… sooo, don’t give up.
Yannie, I am in the same situation.
After my great love and I broke up (I was 27) it took me 5 years until I was in a new relationship. After my ex cheated and lied to me I broke up, which is 20 months ago.
In those last 20 months I have worked on myself. Those past experiences made me stronger and I am not as unhappy with myself than 3 years ago.
I have been single for most of my life and I am sick of being alone. And yes, I can be on my own quite well. I care for myself and do a lot of things I love like hiking, biking or travelling. But I wish I wouldn’t have to do them on my own. I want to open up and fall in love! But how?
So I tried online dating. After 4 months of dating a needed a break. Men were lying and telling me stories. I could not feel anything for anyone. So yes, I gave up on online dating and told myself this is not for me.
People around me constantly fall in love. I hear all these stories of “She/he broke up and a couple of weeks later she/he was in a new relationship”. They seem to be able to swap partners very easily and are happy. I don’t understand how they can do this.
I often have the same problem of how to keep positive. My friend tells me to be patient, but I feel like it takes too long.
I seriously wonder what it is. A few years ago I was constantly sorrounded and even a bit hunted by man. Even a few female friends from the circle of my brother (he’s gay so most of his friends are as well, though I’m not) declared me their love.
And now…? My boundaries are better than ever but I just can’t find the right man. Hell, I can’t even find friends at the moment… after my last break up 1 1/2 years ago I had a big breakthrough and started to work on better boundaries. I realized I let my friends do things to me that weren’t alright. But after I started to stand up for me, they just erased me out of their lives and never called again. I didn’t call either of course. And to be honest, I don’t miss them. But I miss having friends and now that I feel comfortable in my own skin I’d also like to have a partner. I already know very well what it means to be alone, I was pretty lonely growing up. At least I’m dealing better with it now than back then… still it kinda sucks. But what you’re gonna do? I can’t change that over night so I got to be patient. WE got t be patient. And we need to keep searching. That’s all we can do for now.
Thank you for your input. I am more than ok with not settling for less or jumping in too quickly without self preservation…boundaries. And the lull and lack of romantic partnership that has found me is just more time to enjoy with myself and loved ones. I am not sure giving up on online dating altogether is a wise choice for me. However, it can be an EXHAUSTING choice. I am happy that those who are not considerate enough to mean what they say are not a part of the picture. I guess staying positive can mean remaining patient, open, present, while being yourself in times where one is just a number, or text bot in a sea of options.
The funny thing is – because you said you don’t know if you should continue the online dating, since it’s exhausting – a few weeks ago I stopped my version of online dating. Instead of online dating, I tried to find a partner at the university. (I’m a student). It’s not unusual there to just go up to someone and start a conversation with a student you’ve never seen/met before. So I thought it’s a good place to chat some men up. (Or should I call them boys since most of them are twenty-somethings?)
Anyway, some students are really cocky people, it turned out! I was a bit shocked by that fact. I thought most students are easy-going and nice, probably party a bit too much, the whole sterotype. Guess I didn’t put enough thought into the picture and then the truth revealed itself to me and I honestly didn’t like it. I don’t know why but most of the male students there are such a*holes, seriously. And a few weeks ago I came to the point – after my neighbor in class insulted me without me actually doing anything to him – I thought “I’m through with the students in here. I’m not gonna start a conversation with one of them ever again.” But I started to regret it after a while… because I thought… just because I got disappointed, that doesn’t mean I can’t give up before I haven’T reached my goal. I mean we can’t always give up just because the road to the finish line gets a bit tough! If we would give up there’s only one thing sure: We’re gonna lose. So better try and fail then don’t try and make sure you don’t even have a chance of winning.
In some cases I think for me personally, it’s really important I start to learn how to withstand certain disappointments and MOVE ON ANYWAY. That’s determination! That’s strength!
And who doesn’t stumble from time to time? Everyone does it. Every single day. People stumble, then they get back and move on. I’ve come to the point where I don’t wanna throw in the towel just because things don’t come easy or a certain situation reveals itself to be more complicated or tough than I thought. I can do this! And I’m pretty sure you can do this too!
On a more positive note: I once met a really nice guy at university. Sadly he dropped out because he moved to the other side of the country…
So there must be some more nice guys at university, but if I don’t try and watch out for them, I’ll never know.
Kinda rambling and I’m tired so my English is probably the worst it’s ever been, sorry. English is not my mother tongue.
Makes me sad to hear that the university dating experience is a bad one for you. I mean, jeez — it used to be back in the day that’s the best time to find a husband! And now, can’t find a good date? Pfffft.
Well, I’d say you have a good attitude about it all and, relative to the post, maybe be careful about the limited thinking of “there are no good men/boys at university to date.”
Maybe stop dating and do social things in groups, don’t know up if there is a meetup.com in your area… Or get active doing activities where the emphasis is on building your social circle not going on dates.
I started out my romantic life pre-internet and never went on dates (it also wasn’t common in my culture or social circle) and then met all my partners when I was out, or travelling.
I think this approach makes it much more relaxed and better for both as there’s no pressure.
“All of the above dating beliefs tell you about the way these people feel about themselves. They tell the story of past experiences that they’re fearful of recreating.”
That’s absolutely true for me – I know that I have these preconceived ideas, and that’s why I’m not dating. I decided a couple of decades ago that I would stop dating until I had become the person *I’d* want to date, as I was the link between all of the narcissistic, controlling, sleazy, drunkard, or just plain unavailable men that I was drawn to (and drawing to myself).
I’ve had only a couple of *encounters* during that time (talk about a dry spell), which helped me to see where I still needed to heal, and I’ve retreated again to lick my wounds and get on with the business of healing the real issues from childhood.
The truth is, I love working on myself and growing spiritually, emotionally, and getting myself well physically, more than I like dating and socialising. I wish I’d known that about myself years ago, but I also know that all of those painful experiences have helped me to become the person I am today. I *am* becoming the person I’d want to date – and so I’m dating me. I’m loving, nurturing, and caring for my self for the first time in my adult life, and it feels wonderful. I don’t know if I’m ready to share my newly found self with someone else. Maybe one day I will, but I’m not concerned if I don’t, because I’m not lonely. There is still a lot of pain and grief from my childhood, though, and that is taking time, and patience – something I never thought I had.
I think sometimes we say we want a relationship because we feel it’s required of us. It took me a long time to see that I was doing that because I thought others would think me odd for not wanting to be married or with someone. I was the only one of my friends who wasn’t getting married, and I felt I needed to justify my singledom. People I hardly knew would ask if I was married, and then if I’d ever been married, or if I had a boyfriend. Then they’d ask if I was gay. That’s how their minds worked, because, to them, being with someone was *everything* and there must be something wrong with you if you didn’t want that too. So, I’d say all the usual things about not being able to find a great guy, etc. etc.
After doing more work, and realising I was drawn to narcissists because I hadn’t dealt with my father properly, and working on creating healthy boundaries (I had none – and didn’t even know what they were), I felt comfortable enough with my own self to know that my relationship status was nobody else’s business. So, I’m single. I’m alone. I’m content with that situation. That’s not to say if I met my equal I would *never* marry – but I’d be coming from a very different place. Hmmmm, I’ve had quite a ramble – I think I’ve needed to get this off my chest for quite some time… 😀
hi — I agree with every single (pun intentional) word you’ve said and add the following thoughts:
Me personally? Have yet to find a man who has gone to the depths of self as us. OF ANY AGE. Kinda freaks me out to interact with men 40’s, 50’s, 60’s who are the same as they were when in their teens and 20’s. How many men out there “go without. . .” for more than, like, a few months? Right. Shallow relationship after shallow physical relationship to avoid themSelves, more like.
Also, the whole system of marriage is set up like a corporation thus:
– Single=Entry level
– Dating/serious boyfriend= Middle management
– Living together or engaged=Senior management
– Married= full promotion to adulthood, the CEO of social life
So, when you’re single, especially at a certain age, people feel entitled to question and wonder why you haven’t been promoted, just as if you’re a certain age and working (still or whatever) an entry level job.
Yep.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. . .I didn’t make the rules and don’t play by them but still. It’s there.
OMG yes
THIS IS SO TRUE!
I’ve decided I’m happier single and just sorta keeping an eye open than actively dating for a while now and I have no intention of changing that any time soon. But you are right, people need to know WHY like it means I’m settling for a paper route than aiming for a management position. When they find out I’m 39 and never been in a real, long-term relationship you’d think I told them my paper route was my dream job.
Like, if I were divorced it’s the same as saying “well, I was a CEO, but now I’m on sabbatical…” Which is very different than saying you’ve worked minimum wage your whole life. Which is weird, and drives it even more home, because if you’re happy and paying your bills what’s wrong with loving your minimum wage job?? When you put those comparisons in your comment I laughed out loud because it rang so true on so many levels.
I want a relationship and I’m certainly emotionally ready for it, having spent the past 6 years since my divorce getting on my feet and creating a happy life that I enjoy. But….those feelings of “there’s no one out there” and “I’ll never find anyone” and “I’ll be alone for the rest of my life” do creep in. My question for you Natalie, is how do I combat those kinds of thoughts? I have a great job, I’m in good shape, many men have found me attractive, and I know I have so much to give to a new partner. But I keep getting rejected by men I think I’d be great with and I’m wanted by men I know aren’t the best match for me. How do I keep at it without getting discouraged? Your column really didn’t address that. I hope you’ll reply.
Hi, for starters have a look at your final comments about being ‘rejected’ – now thats a tough way to describe it! – by men you like and men.. etc. No mention of you there, or your agency. Maybe try to make it less about how men are acting, or responding.
I know where you’re coming from (see my comment above) but maybe you’re being a bit too serious, or binary about it. Perhaps take a break for a little while, have lighter connections with men – take a lover – and work out what it is you really want.
For a long long time I talked about wanting to get married (I’m in my 40s with a child) but now realise it was for the wrong reasons linked to my background and me saying this attracted the wrong kinds of men. To be honest I’m not sure what I want, or what would be best for my situation (with a child) so I’m just trying to reduce the pressure by appreciating my life as it is and working on that.
Following the previous comment about taking a lover or otherwise lighter connections with men. . .
I think? (. . .wait for it, you may not like what I have to say) . . .Completely detach from the limited thinking you described above AS WELL AS thinking “I’ll find someone if I just keep at it.”
Natalie’s post did not describe that there are also limiting beliefs that *seem positive* — but that is what type of thinking predominates the narrative for most women. Most men don’t think this way — how many men do you meet or know that are specifically dating to find a wife, long term partner or otherwise commit? Right.
I say, start by aligning your thoughts with reality. And then? Detach. . .detach. . .detach. . .from the outcome of your actions relative to dating and/or otherwise relating with men whatever.
I don’t know that it will completely help with eliminating the negative thoughts, but remember, there is always an element of a numbers game with these things. For you to really be “right” for someone the feelings need to be mutual, and that takes a while to find.
Look at it this way, you say “But I keep getting rejected by men I think I’d be great with and I’m wanted by men I know aren’t the best match for me.” I bet if you ask some of the guys YOU rejected they would say “I don’t get it, I think we’d be great together.” But you don’t feel the corresponding chemistry, or you see the issues they don’t that would be the missing piece that is needed for the two of you to be “great” together. The men you’re interested in that don’t respond see one of those two things, you just don’t see them from your perspective.
I do think it is harder to wade through the sea of time-wasters on dating sites. When I was in a position to look a year or so ago I was on a paid-for site and still found mostly time wasters and players.
I *know* there are good men out there – I’ve a couple of friends, who are 30/40, who have met decent men online and are happily coupled up. I see no reason why it can’t happen to me when the time is right, even though I’ll probably be over 50 by the time I’m ‘available’ again. BUT you can’t get away from the fact a LOT of the single men out there who are looking for dating/relationships are either not really single, still healing from previous hurts or just want ‘fun’. I DO believe it is possible to find but the need to keep your wits about you and eyes open is imperative.
I take comfort from about the only thing my narc ex came out with that did make some sense (I think it’s motivational sales talk) was – for each “no”, you’re closer to your “yes”.
A very well timed discussion — both Natalie’s original as well as everyone who has commented.
I scare a lot of men off by stating upfront that I can’t promise sex or even friendship and/or/but I’m looking forward to getting to know them and taking life as it comes. I often refuse to have a meal(too romantic, too relationshippy, too pre-bedtime moves) in favor of an activity I’ve never done before. That way, I’ve at least grown a little, done something new.
So! I’ve literally had men say to me “. ..but. . .what about in, like,5 months? You won’t be ready in. . .like, 5 months???” which tells me how long they’re willing to wait for sex.
I think be cautious with any viewpoint relative to one’s self and others that is too extreme. To my best knowledge, that is “black and white thinking” and is relatively common in those that are emotionally unavailable both us and others. Like this: it’s ALWAYS such and such a way! or it’s NEVER such and such a way! as well as the sort of memes that opened the original post.
We all go through times of feeling stress or scarcity that may temporarily force us to feel options are limited, but an ongoing inability to see options may be cause for concern and a chance to question ourselves(and others).
I personally think it is especially *literally* dangerous to date online with *either* extreme viewpoint( I WILL find the one among so many AMAZING MEN! or There are absolutely no good men online to date!) because to me *both* limited perspectives relative to literally boatloads of strangers may cause a person to not pay attention to who a person is vs. what they are trying to project.The texting, the sexting, the profiles all of it — is it a *person*(real) or a *persona*(created) involved?
That’s why, based on what people have said, maybe on some level someone who is, say, sexting over a period of months rather than meeting — is that a *person* or *persona*?
For a lot of reasons, I personally feel very squeamish about almost every aspect of my life being carried out online. Finding a job, dating, banking, shopping, communicating, booking travel — on and on.
I personally had better relationships prior to “the Internet” — I’m old enough to remember when to ask someone for a date, you had to call. . .and call. . .and CALL! *CALL* — no *answering machines,* let alone voicemail and email, etc.!
A LOT of people behave electronically in ways that they wouldn’t in person. These days, some people can’t distinguish the two. To me, such behavior would indicate an inability to relate, in some area, sometimes varying degrees of emotional unavailaliblity.
These days, it seems like I meet A LOT of men who can turn a phrase in an email or text or whatever, but can’t flirt AT ALL in person. Or, on the other end, they expect far more in person than was ever suggested online — e.g. being ready for (rough) sex, just b/c I wrote something like “hey handsome.” Makes me wonder, sometimes — is it me, or is it them? Is my *persona*, or the “idea” or “idealized” me better/worse/more sexual/aggressive than the real me? And vice versa, relative to the other person? Hmmm.
Meanwhile, I think a LOT of the dating literature and process encourages extremes. Does most dating stuff out there aimed at women state along the lines of “YOU WILL TOTALLY FIND THE ONE RIGHT NOW, YOU AMAZING, BEAUTIFUL SEXY WOMAAAAANNN!” or Does it emphasize the trial and error, hit and miss, growth orientation of the process? Do most people you meet that are total strangers make up their minds about you (or you about them) based on a kind of preimposed template from wherever rather quickly or does each person take time and an open minded attitude of discovery, richness and growth? How many people do you meet that you both say to each other, “I’m open to the process”?
I think being reasonable and open minded means questioning both the *person* and the *persona* that we inhabit, as well as that of others. That may mean boundaries, it may not — I don’t know, actually. For example, if someone starts sexting and it seems off, maybe instead of responding in the extreme way expected (either ignoring or engaging), maybe ask questions about it instead — it might seem weird, but why not. “Whoa! Asking me about my privates is interesting, is that what you’re looking for in a long-term relationship or more of a fling today for you?” Conversely, for some women(even men!) sexting long-term rather than meeting in person may be a persona. . .that ironically, is avoiding sex and intimacy! It may be a way of having a “sexy persona” that isn’t that way at all in real life!
Say all that to say — personas, both ours and others are shrouded by limited, extreme beliefs that are hard to uncover unless you and they are doing new things to grow and open to doing so. Like, all the time. I say, try offering oh, I dunno — scuba diving? — “dates” instead of dinner ( I literally won’t go out to dinner unless we’re already a couple) or otherwise do thing that require to *be people* rather than *present personas*.
I’m struck by your no dinner rule. Why turn down food? You have to eat anyway might as well have some interesting company. Why think it needs to turn into pre bedtime moves (love the phrasing btw)?
Personally have never made it through a meal without a jerk showing his hand so to speak. It’s only as intimate as you make it. It’s the ones who want to go on adventures and can’t commit to calling our get together a date at all that make me back off instantly. Those tend to be thrill/chase seekers.
To each his or her own I suppose.
People vs. persona I say persona is there ideal self. That’s the they they would be without pressures and consequences, it’s about as real as who they are if not more so in a way. Just as long as those two don’t get confused by the person or the person they are seeing think it’s fine. We all have different parts to our personality we play up or down depending on context of say talking with your boss vs your best friend right?
Reacting to why turn down food. . .
Yeah, good questions and interrogation of thinking. . .will try to tie together things and make it relevant to the original post. . .
So, I think a common “limiting belief” along with the ones
from above among women is “All men want is one thing/sex.”
Now. Of course sex is important and highly prioritized with men (and women!) which is why there can be a range of bad experiences when the emotional (availability) is not also prioritized. That plays out as Cheating, playing the field, dumping after sex, not being
“relationship ready” but constantly “bedroom ready” — on and on and on. That much is true, and does contribute rather soundly to the limiting belief that sex is all men want.
But there are degrees — that’s where FWB type situations
come in, as well as the types of men who don’t want real
deep intimate relationships, they want fun!!. Among my friends, we have called this type of relationship “an activity parter with some sex on top.” Rather common.
I also think, in general, men overestimate the woman’s interest in sex and women underestimate same. Men seem more ready and willing for sex without knowing a person than women. And, we all know the old trope where sleeping with a man hoping for a relationship? Right, doesn’t work.
So, even though the root BELIEF is incorrect, of course, in
real life how it plays out is in ways that certainly reinforce
the belief. It CAN be really difficult to find a quality partner who values YOU, not JUST your down below.
So, not having dinner with them is a way of telegraphing not having sex with them. . .just yet. I think there is a very real imbalance between the genders as far as sex readiness and “taking it slow.” I think men are far more ready for a physical commitment before an emotional one, and women vice versa. Makes for messes.
I mean, I can tell you from what seems to be my experience from doing Nat’s work and other heart healing-type activities that my “vibration” or whatever seems to have raised. When I go out by myself, not even meaning to, I meet, talk to, and exchange contact info with anywhere from 1-6 men in the course of a weekend. For me, that’s a lot. . .of data. That very unscientific, random sampling of men — irrespective of age, race, income — suggests to me at this time that the men were
neither interested in dating nor sleeping with me.
Confusing, right?
Here goes — upon further examination along “is it me? what kinda vibe am I giving off NOW for jaysus sakes?” The men I’ve met recently, I mean, it amounts to roughly 20 by now — were, however, interested in
me being the pursuer, e.g. throwing myself at them sexually.
Further, I personally have found that it is VERY difficult to
have a legit platonic, collegiate relationship with a man. It’s like, even if he doesn’t want to sleep with you, *he* wants *you* to want to sleep with him.
So, to me, very few that I’ve met are willing to do any work, to pursue, date, relate on a real level. More often than not, they are interested in pursuing for sex, not the intimacy. They want it varying degrees of easy: me doing the work, me wanting to sleep together without a commitment, and on and on. Me personally? I’m unwilling to initiate and/or unequally throw myself at him to do both the emotional work on the relationship (which I know is coming) *concurrent with* the sheer mechanics of dating. Which is most of what these guys want.
Stumped on this one — perhaps I’m just continuing to attract slightly better, slightly nicer versions of the same old EUMs — just slightly less intensely than I was previously. Perhaps I’m not yet attracting the emotionally available, present man who wants to take it slow, physically and sexually, toward a mutual and intimate relationship.
SO! Say all that to say, I reserve dinners for solo time, business, family and friends. To be fair, I don’t go to dinner or any sort of meal, really, with complete strangers, period, male or female.
My experience has been that sitting down to dinner with a male stranger with even a hint of romantic potential=the premature assumption that I want sex. Without commitment. Without love, care, trust, respect. That’s a no, so next!(and next, and next, and next).
I’m liking the “no dinner” tack. Having a dinner date can lead to “why not” thinking. “The conversation was nice/restaurant was nice/evening was nice, why not go back to his place/invite him in.” Which leads to “It’s been a while, why not..?”
Eating together is a too familiar pattern, it can impose a familiar wrapper around the coupling, and lead one to do things that presuppose more intimacy than what really exists. Almost everyone has gone out to eat in a relationship, so the act of going out to eat makes you think *this* is a relationship, when it is not. Early on in dating, you have to remember the person you are with is a stranger.
The “it’s free” thinking is why some men resent asking us out…they feel we’ve taken advantage and given nothing…and if you say you’ve given your company, remember, so has he. Some men feel cheated by social rules that still tacitly expect the man to pay. They feel women who have no interest in them beyond a “free meal” have used them.
All that can be thwarted by agreeing to dutch on the first dates….and maybe putting the money on the table before ordering.
Again, I saw a judge show where the woman was suing the man for a date…he claimed he forgot his wallet, and they had run up quite a bill. She had picked him up in her car and had to pay for the entire evening, and she felt cheated. Wow…we never understand things until it happens to us. These were twentysomethings, so women’s lib and equal pay be damned, we still want men to foot the date.
I once had to pay for a dinner date, somewhat similar situation, he said he had lost his money..and as I took out my cash he instructed me to slip it to him under the table….!…..and I did it! Owa tafoo liam.
To be honest, I haven’t had an honest to goodness “date” in so long, I am not sure what to do on one.
Elgie — Like for REAL though, I agree 100% with every word. ..
Eating together is a too familiar pattern — reaction:
Yeah, it’s like the script to some romcom :”Well, it’s getting late, I should go home. . .” You’re walking in the evening, because, you know, it’s nice out! It’s not just a walk, it’s an *evening stroll* . . .”Are you sure you have to go, so soon? I’m REALLY enjoying your company, how about a nightcap?” “Okay, but just one, I should really go home. . .”
Fast forward to. . .locked lips, panties down. . .he doesn’t remember what happened in the morning b/c he was, you know, too drunk after a few glasses of “wine with dinner” and doesn’t call, after.
Yeah, no thanks, no dinners.
Btw, I just think do whatever it takes to flip the script on all the old dating tropes as well as limiting beliefs — going back to the original post. Do whatever to rid yourself of old patterns and attracting scores of men and situations that are not right.
For me myself personally, it’s dinner(which usually includes wine, at a minimum) and the aftermath of dinner. For other people, it might be other things — the point for real though is, flip. The. Script.
Oh! And learn to cook. Really, really.. .*cook* for just you.
I will say I’ve started shying away from dinner as a first date for a lot of reasons the original poster mentioned. I will do a lunch date, though. It’s way less pressure than dinner, there is usually less booze involved, but you still have the general intimacy of sharing a meal which helps the get-to-know you process. Also, as she so fabulously put it, there is less pressure in the pre-bedtime area,
Could I please get some much needed input from my sisters here?
I have been living with my boyfriend for a year now. He is a lot of fun to be with and we have a good life together and are talking more and more about our future.
But this bugs me: he has given me gifts that advance our mutual interest, such as hunting gear, fishing gear, camping gear, etc. But none of the “girlfriend” things like jewelry, flowers, love notes, cards, etc. In a way I don’t care, but now that I have noticed it it is starting to bother me.
A few months ago my girlfriend had surgery and he sent her flowers. Yesterday our favorite server at the tavern had a birthday and he sent her flowers at work. He mentioned that the other server has a birthday in three months and he plans to send her flowers as well. Huh? I have never gotten flowers. I was a bit upset. He thinks I’m “just being jealous” or “oversensitive,” but as I see it, he is showing other women a kind of attention that I also want for me. I have been hinting for months about flowers, but no.
I tried to talk to him but it went nowhere.
What next? Should I just say “oh well” and enjoy my sleeping bag? Or is it a big deal that he sends flowers to other women but not to me?
Help.
Wow…I think that is odd behavior on his part. Sending flowers to my ill girlfriend…?….and not like it was a “from us” gift? Giving flowers to women at the pub? And then his categorizing your feelings as “insecurity” and/or “jealousy”?
You feel what you feel. Maybe he is looking for a way out of this year-long thing, and is being passive-aggressive about it.
Sounds like trouble ahead.
How would he feel if you baked an apple pie and gave it to his best friend? Or whatever…if you did some special thing for some other man that you’ve never done for him?
When you say you tried to talk about it….have you tried the direct “Babe, I need you to give me a romantic gift, it would make me feel so good.”
Some good ideas for me to think about. Thank you, Elgie. I also thought it was weird that he gave his ex wife a birthday card. I mean that’s ok, but on my birthday we had dinner but there was no card. I am a bit sentimental and I like to save things like cards. I would love it if he would get me a piece of jewelry to wear. I need a bit of romance. But then I feel like I’m just whining because he does take me out to dinner, buy me gifts, etc. they just happen to be things like fishing poles rather than flowers and jewelry. Maybe I’m just being a big baby, or maybe I need to address what I need. It’s so hard to tell! It’s so hard to know when to speak about things that are bugging me and when to just “let it go.” He once called me neurotic because when my feelings get hurt it takes me a few hours to recover. It hurts my feelings that when we are out in public he makes jokes about me being “old” (I am 4 years older than him). Then when I get real quiet, he says I was just joking! Geez, can’t you take a joke? But no, I don’t like it. Struggling with the concept of when am I being over sensitive and when am I not expressing feelings but stuffing them. Please help!
I think you need to just tell him that you would really appreciate a card, and that as much as you enjoy the more practical gifts (if you really do) that something more romantic and sentimental would really make you happy.
You need tot ell him this, though not at a time when he just told you about getting flowers for a friend, because when you piggy back that discussion it does sound a little like jealously and because this shouldn’t be about what he does for others that he doesn’t do for you, it’s about what he can do for you to make you happy.
This could very well be that he just sees gifts differently than you, like you said, you are sentimental about cards and flowers, I bet you he sees them as very dry and anonymous tokens and buying something like a fishing pole that he knows you will derive a lot of fun and use from is WAY more romantic because he actually though of something specific you would really like rather than defaulting to the token. But you guys need to talk about why certain gifts feel special to each other. At a time when you are just talking about the two of you, not anyone else.
I don’t think you need to give up, but I do think that maybe if you can be happy with him adding in a card to birthday gifts or flowers once and three other gifts for other things it will be a good compromise of you feeling romanced and him feeling like he is giving from his heart rather than from a list.
Oregongirl, are those gifts of fishing poles, et.al. really *gifts*? I mean, when the relationship ends, do you get to take them with you? Or will they remain with him, to be used by future outdoor buddies? To me, those are the kind of gifts a man gives when he does not want a woman to walk away with anything when the relationship ends. Sounds like he’s been scarred by the financial ramifications of divorce, and he’s made a pact with himself to give gifts that a woman would not want to take should the relationship end.
A major issue is his “I’m just joking” behavior. That behavior needs to be nipped in the bud. That is pure passive-aggression. It will eat away at you over time.
Is he a considerate lover…?…doesn’t sound like it. It’s none of my business, but you can answer that for yourself.
Are you dependent on him financially?
This man will destroy your soul over time if you let him, so why let him?
Just another opinion….. sometimes when we want our man’s behavior to change more to our liking, diplomatic discussion is NOT the way. Maybe less of us are growing up in extended families, so we haven’t seen the ways that older men and women dealt with relationship issues. We are so bent on being “mature” and discussing things “like adults”. Sometimes diplomacy doesn’t make the point as much as a visceral emotional act.
For example – those flowers he brought to the pub for the waitress…?…. I would’ve thrown them out the window before we made it to the pub.
If you’ve seen the movie “Moonstruck”, I love the scene in the kitchen where the old man gives the dogs food from his plate. He does it once. He does it twice. He gets up a third time and the Olympia Dukakis’ character says “ Old man, you give those dogs another piece of my food and I’m gonna kick you ’til you’re dead!”
That is old school relationship negotiation. Clear and to the point.
Aww, shucks, sis, how can I resist such a shoutout?? 🙂 I’ll do my best, I hope that you can take what I’m saying as a way that can support you.
Here’s my take: I’ve been there. I think it’s hard to navigate things about and around what the man “expects” from femininity relative to how he relates to women — in general and as well as in a partnership. I noticed that the gifts he gave you are “bro-ish” gifts that he could enjoy *by himself* as well as with you. A gift of flowers, jewelry — more “girly” that he has no stake in except to admire them with you. But to me the crux of your beef seems to be as I read it, why is MY MAN rewarding OTHER WOMEN with the feminine accoutreMAH that should rightfully be mine?
Have you ever been exposed to (sexist) material on dating and being in relationships that encourage women to “be sweet” and do other weird stuff in varying degrees of manipulation in order to get what we want/need? Rather than, you know, asking for it? That’s role playing and not good in an intimate relationship, right?
Well, the thing is, some people fall for that, both male and female. It sounds like to me that your man is inappropriately drawn to something in other women that he rewards — but not you. Sorry girl — that to me is a BIG problem. Sorry.
I find it problematic that when you called him on your behavior, he 1) ignored your feelings and 2) named them as jealousy. It’s not as bad as gaslighting (abusive) but it is insensitivity. Me personally? I only want 2 people in my relationship — me and him.
You gotta lot of “hers” up in there — other than naming it and calling it out, only HE can sort out why — did his dad have affairs, for example? Is he fearful of intimacy, on some level? Was his mother “weak” or “coquettish?” It’s something like that, it has nothing to do with you, per se.
*Sigh*
Sorry. sis.
Without knowing or you saying what your actual personality or relationship is, I would personally say from experience and observation that INTENTIONALLY OR NOT this is the type of stuff men pull on women who are strong in their careers, women who are intellectual, women who *they see* as unfeminine in some way. Not that you are unfeminine, of course — but some men really, seriously, do gravitate toward the ploys of “weaker” women who can actually be quite manipulative — is it possible that these women, these girly-girls ASK YOUR MAN for flowers, etc.? Bat their eyes, feign weakness etc.? Seriously, men. Do. Fall. For. That. Crap.
*sigh*
My long ago ex with who I was in a 5 year relationship and lived with (long story–maybe more later) used to give me the following gifts: scissors(right, really? not kidding), books, domestic crap (like bowls — it’s a NICE bowl, he would say — grrr). When I *did* get jewelry, it was inappropriate — bracelets that didn’t fit, etc. Meanwhile, I was bending over giving him the most tender gifts I knew he would like — I’m talking, surprise World Cup tix for his birthday, okay?? Right. I NEVER really, in 5 years, got a sensitive, well thought out, “feminine” sort of gift from him. “Flowers, die,” he would say.
One time? He straightfacedly told me how his female coworker wanted to go swing dancing with him, in a class! Whatthewhat, now? I BEGGED him to go to a dance class with me, and he didn’t want to!
And, I thought we would marry — we did not. I found out too late that he was not marriage minded.
Say all that to say — sometimes, however subtle, men do weird crap like that e.g. in the giftgiving insensitivity area b/c they cannot commit on some level and/or have some kind of unexplored fear of intimacy. Some guys specifically avoid the whole jewelry category, for example, b/c they don’t ever intend on the big kahuna gift, which is a ring!
I would sense that the reason it’s bothering you is not the material reason, but perhaps the creeping-creepiness of what almost certainly some level of emotional unavailability and fear of commitment in your man and within the relationship. Not to say you’re doomed to fail just yet — but lots to consider. Careful and well thought out on how to proceed, I’d say — there is SOMETHING up larger there than just the non-girlfriend gift giving dealio.
Oh, boy, oregongirl – he sounds just like my father! Mum never asked for anything, but she did want an eternity ring. She kept dropping hints, but Dad would buy her some other (expensive) jewellery – and never what she actually wanted. She’s say something about it and he’d reply, “Oh, I thought this was better.” Thus invalidating her wants and needs – in fact, saying that she wasn’t competent enough to know what she wanted.
She also wanted him to take her to the movies occasionally, but he said he couldn’t sit through it without his legs getting achy. So, fast forward, and Mum died in 1997 (42 years of marriage) – two months later, Dad is dating our old neighbour, who phoned him to give her condolences after Mum died. They dated for a while, and then moved in together, and then they got married. SHE got the f*ing eternity ring!!!! AND, he took *her* to the movies every week! He also sold his boat, though she *said* she loved the boat (whereas Mum hated it). This woman is so manipulative – I’ve seen her at work, it’s like she’s brainwashing him. But he’s got the wife he truly deserves, and now he’s getting to suffer, so, ha bloody ha!
To put it simply – he was punishing Mum!! That is an act of passive-aggression (they didn’t deal with their relationship issues in all those years). As one of the girls already mentioned, your boyfriend is giving you gifts he could use by himself, and is treating you like a mate (in the guy sense) – however, that’s not what worries me so much. It’s the way he demeans your feelings about the situation.
Neurotic? I’d say *he* is the one who is neurotic – he may want to break up with you, or is angry with you but can’t express it (maybe you remind him of his mother), so he’s making sure you don’t get what you want. It’s a form of control and coercion – if *you* act like those other women, *then* I’ll give you what you want. RUN!!! Run for your life, or at the very least have a serious conversation – not just “I tried.” Keep trying until you get the conversation you want to have. That’s another thing he’s not giving you, and this is not acceptable behaviour from a partner (or anyone).
Please don’t become the manipulative type like our old neighbour, acting all coquettish and girly (she’s the same age as my Dad). Hinting, complaining and whining don’t work either – that’s the behaviour of a child who isn’t allowed to ask for what they want, and who is afraid of getting into trouble. You’re an adult now, so *ask* for what you want, and state why it’s important to you. If he can’t step up when asked outright, then maybe it’s time to move on. This partnership is not equal and boundaried – you’re treating him like a daddy, and are maybe wanting validation of your femininity and desirability to come in the form of jewellery and flowers (is that what your mother got?). You need to give *yourself* validation of those things, and then you’ll attract a man who treats you how you wish to be treated. Maybe buy yourself flowers if you like flowers. Start treating yourself in a manner that you wish to be treated by others.
Anyway, getting gifts is not the way to happiness. They don’t mean anything. My father controlled through money and gifts – or the withholding of the gifts that Mum (or my sister and I) wanted. You’re giving this guy too much power over you and your own happiness…
A very interesting set of comments. This struck me: ‘man is inappropriately drawn to something in other women that he rewards — but not you’ — yes! The problem is not just that he isn’t a romantic gift giver, it seems a lot of guys have this problem, but that he gives romantic gifts to just about any woman that crosses his path (the server, really? need for approval much?) which is a red flag on its own, and a flashing red flag combined with the fact that he won’t for you even after you asked him. So you asked him for something fairly minor and normal – flowers. He not only doesn’t give them to you, he tells you’re over-reacting, and then, cherry on top, goes ahead and distributes them to every woman he knows, and tells you theres more of that coming up. Wow.
If I didn’t want to give someone something for purely petty reasons, and it was still someone I liked, I at least wouldn’t rub their face in how I was giving that thing to others. Or go out of my way to give that thing to every single person around me so that person can really feel like sh*t. I think this guy doesn’t have good boundaries with women. Or he’s really doing this to ensure that you know you’re not that special.
Regarding gifts – if a guy doesn’t give romantic gifts, to be honest, I’d look to whether theres romance in other things, normal things. I don’t like to press on gift giving as its just not natural for some people [although a good way to check the healthiness of a relationship is to do so and see what happens – most people respond with the ultimate gas lighting]. General affection, kindness, caring, thoughtfulness is more important. Gifts seem to cause some people to choke. And a good way to spot someone passive aggressive and manipulative is that they don’t give you what you want and expect, and they definitely won’t if you expressly ask. And what does that say about them? They don’t do whats right and appropriate. And they refuse completely if someone asks them..
Wow, Cindy, thank you for sharing! My ex lover once brought me flowers which cost £5.99 from a supermarket and I was not impressed, I felt insulted so my reaction was: “oh well”…When he left I put them straight to the dustbin! Don’t get me wrong I am not gold digger and I don’t want something expensive, not at all, but when you give someone flowers you need to choose a beautiful and fresh ones:) He could afford it, he was an investment banker and drove Porsche!
Mmm I think there’s definitely something off there, it sounds like he’s altered the buy mum a vacuum cleaner for Christmas joke to what sleeping bags? And then him being unable to hear your concern about sending other women flowers, which are – as all men know the key symbol of making an effort/showing the sensitive, romantic side/seducing a woman etc.
Sounds like he’s delegated you to the role of sensible partner more like a friend than a lover (and then criticises you for not being happy about it).
I have a similar problem where none of my exes -none – did the romantic wooing stuff with me, or if they did it was a big deal. Part of this is cultural I come from a very egalitarian culture, am a big feminist so looked for how he acted, how he helped me in the day to day, but with one boyfriend -not long term – I remember him saying how he bought another woman flowers in the past and I had similar questions to you, thinking maybe my egalitarian/feminist way of being was being used to this guy’s advantage as he didn’t have to spend anything on me!
My advice: ask boyfriend why he is doing this, ask him how other people might see/interpret it… Try not to say, what about me???? Keep cool, observe him. If he remains clueless or continues to blame you it’s not a good sign. Good luck.
And I just saw your comment about him saying you’re old etc.
Dump that guy. Never, ever, ever accept those kinds of ‘passing comment’s as the other sisters have rightly identified this guy is being mean to you, saying he won’t do something you want (while doing it for waitresses he hardly knows). What a asshat!
Sexting and texting has eroded social skills, in both the young and the old. I saw one of those daytime judge shows – a man and woman in their 20’s had met via Facebook and then one morning when the man got on the metro train to head to work, he saw his Facebook female, and instead of walking over to her to meet in person, he texted her via Facebook to ask “Is that you?” AND…. the girl replied via Facebook…!….saying it was her if he thought she was cute.
Made me realize that young people are hiding behind their online “personas”….too afraid of actual personal face-to-face rejection. Part of the rites of passage of growing into adulthood is facing that first heartbreak and then, healing. I don’t think young folks are learning how to heal. Instead, they focus on avoiding social media humiliation and do things to look like they are “stars” in their own lives.
When it comes to being older and using dating apps, I think most folks on the apps are shopping for status looks. Kind of like looking for the best deal on Amazon.
Anne, when you said you have a “lot to give”, alarm bells went off in my head because those words say you are ripe for the picking. You want someone to “see” you and the first guy who treats you nicely wins all your prizes. Which means a charming user may pick up your scent.
I am on the job market, and much of what Natalie says about feeling hopeless resonated with me. I am older, in a young white man’s field of computers…I am ancient in their eyes. My skills are seen as ancient even though I see they are not. I had one interview this year, by phone, and toward the end I could hear the “I’ve got a lot of gifts” tone in my voice. And I was interviewing for a job I did not really desire! I knew I had lost out even before hanging up the phone.
So I took stock. And I realized I need to flip this script and make them want me. I also work to eliminate my fears of being too old…I just don’t allow those thoughts and I read “Horatio Alger” type propaganda – stories about overcoming the odds and tackling challenges and winning against typecasting.
I think the same “flip” has to be done with dating. I like JC’s ideas – stating that sex is off the table and scheduling activities instead of eating. You learn a lot about people when they are thrust into unfamiliar environments. Plus, it sends a message that I want to get to know you and I want to be known in return…I’m not just trying to kill some time and get some sex.
Elgie, “Looking for the best deal on Amazon…” reminded me of those old ads on telly – Comes with a set of steak knives… But wait, there’s more!!! Haha!
I’m not in the job market any longer due to the auto-immune disorder I have (M.E.), but when I was, I soooooo remember the interviews where I had a “lot of gifts” to offer. When you need to say it, you don’t really believe it. It’s the sort of thing I used to say a few years back when I didn’t really know myself. And then I dug deeper, and the floodgates opened, and I *really* got to know myself and, oh boy, not so many gifts, haha! Lots of healing to do that my self-aggrandisement was covering up.
You’re right – the wrong type of guy (usually narcissists) picks up on that stuff so quickly (even if it’s not stated outright). They have a ‘prey’ detector, and they’re just ready to pounce…
Great post Natalie! I knew this older woman several years ago that had a few kids by different men and she had never married. She tried to give me dating advice that was never good. She once told me that all men cheated, so i shouldn’t be optimistic about finding a good man to marry….i objected… And sure enough, several years later she still is not married and the type of men she dates cheat on her. It is a pattern she is caught in, and rather than fix her thinking and heal, she just keeps dating the same type of guy that isn’t faithful to her.
I knew another girl that would make excuses and say things like men of her race do not get married. Yet she wanted to get married and kept going out with men who would in some way hint or tell her directly that they were not interested in her or were not looking for marriage. It was bizarre once i picked up on the pattern with her… And when i suggested she start hanging with different types of people, she wouldn’t because she said she did not want to meet new people only to be disappointed…so she just got stuck in a vicious cycle.. And now she is with someone accepting crumbs… Just as she prophesied for herself….folks really need to be healthy within themselves to get what they want… Sheesh
So true, Tiffy… I see that in myself – I unconsciously attracted (and was attracted to) men like my father (who is a narcissist). When I became aware of that pattern, I removed myself from the dating pool, while I worked on healing old childhood traumas, and my own narcissistic behaviours. Hopefully, those inner changes will help me to change my belief systems about men, and start attracting a different type of person. That can only come from within…
Recently, I met a great guy. He wants a relationship. His spiritual beliefs are somewhat similar to mine, but different enough that I’m unsure whether to proceed forward. Any thoughts?
Hello Hi Natalie,
I’ve tried not to jump to conclusions after meeting someone new, but I read your “Fast-Forwarding: When Someone Speeds You Through Dating” and it has been subject of my worry (before I found the article). We’ve been acquainted for at least 4 months, but I still feel he wants me to make a commitment right now. He treats me well. If he sees something I need help with he does it for me (Not expecting anything in return?). My main complaint is that he really wants the relationship to move forward. I think we still need to get to know each other. Under a year is too short for me. I do not want to fall into a trap. NB:There is no sex in this relationship. I have no intention of doing that with someone to whom I am not married.
Hi Natalie,
Longtime fan, first time poster. There are points in this article that resonated with me deeply. I’ll spare you the long post on my dating and relationship experiences. Thank you very much for the service you provide for those of us embarking on healthier lives, self-esteem, self-love, and love. I enjoy your podcasts immensely from here in the Pacific Northwest in America.