When I overheard a friend advising a business associate to stop solely focusing on the initial money spent on a business venture and to address the real issues and decisions at hand first, I thought of the many stories readers share with me. One of the reasons that can keep you holding on tight to someone, a relationship, an idea, or situation that you really need to either let go of or to reconsider your course of action based on how things are, is this idea that you have to recoup your investment or even make it pay. Like the initial investment in a business ( ‘sunk cost’) is the cost of participation, so is your perceived ‘investment’. The cost has been and done.
I can assure you that if you keep chasing down people for what you think you’re ‘owed’ like a bailiff trying to collect goods to the amount of the debt, it will cost you far more than anything you’ve put in so far, including your dignity. The Justifying Zone isn’t a good place to be.
Of course you can shrink the ‘cost’ greatly by keeping your feet in reality (keep your picture building to a minimum) and limiting the amount of time spent chatting before meeting up for the first time. Also keep up your real life.
You also can’t have a relationship without having the relationship and putting yourself in it. There are no guarantees or warranties. You can’t know whether a relationship is going to work if you don’t give it a shot. That said, you can save yourself a lot of headache if in the period of time when you’re getting to know one another, you forge the relationship in reality and don’t ignore code amber and red behaviour because you might ignore it now but it will dominate the relationship before you know it. It’s like shoving bills under the carpet. It also helps if you don’t lose your identity and self-respect because at least then you’ll know that you’re there for healthy reasons. In order to truly be in a relationship with someone, you also have to let go of your safety net come ‘fallback option’. If it doesn’t work out, you can’t exactly turn around and say, ‘Damn you! I should have been free to cheat or keep my options open. You owe me my time and the chance to be with my ex! Give me back my time!’ If you’ve been the Other Woman/Man, you likely already know that the cost of an affair is hefty. You have to live on the fringes, marginalise your own needs, expectations and wishes, and do a hell of a lot of pretending while struggling to decipher fact from fiction. But that (and the rest including the tears and torment never mind the effect on the person they’re cheating on) is the cost of getting involved with someone who is already in a relationship. It’s unrealistic to think that there wouldn’t be this cost – millions have gone before you and felt the pain, me included! You can’t justify continuing the affair based on that cost because it’s been and done. Hanging around to justify that you had the affair in the first place and to make it all worthwhile is trying to make sense out of nonsense or trying to turn a chicken back into an egg. We can stay in a situation long past its sell-by-date due to being blinded by our perceived investment. We want to get our ‘capital’ back but we can start over and rebuild. Money can be worked out down to the last penny but emotions and energy are tricky to be quantify. Depleted, dejected, demoralised and being in denial, are normally signs of overspend… When you spend too much time living in the past, it never bodes well. It doesn’t make sense to focus on this cost if you’re not addressing the real and far more pertinent issues or if those costs are no longer relevant to the present and are in fact serving as a distraction from having to face current responsibilities and decisions. If you focus too much on that cost, you’ll make a decision that serves a past that’s already over but that ignores the truth of the present or costs that are going to continue to accrue in the future due to your lack of prudence and mindfulness. Of course it may have ‘cost’ you this time round but if you learn from the insights that you gain from each experience and use it to empower and grow you, you can only save and gain in the future. Your thoughts?
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If you focus too much on that cost, you’ll make a decision that serves a past that’s already over but that ignores the truth of the present or costs that are going to continue to accrue in the future due to your lack of prudence and mindfulness.
Damn. U suck, Nat. How dare you make sense?!
Cue kid voice “but I don’t wanna” be mindful. Pouting. Sooo pouting n kicking rocks.
Yes, very good. That’s why I held on to guys so long before dumping them, my “emotional” investment. Gotta dump sooner.
Yes I am also very guilty of this. I have a pattern of staying too long in relationships. I probably would have stayed even longer with the last idiot too if it hadn’t been for Natalie and this site.
Reading Nats book “Mr Unavailable and The Fallback Girl” has given me a lot of help in identifying my behaviour and the reasons for it. If we don’t do this work we are doomed to repeat in my experience.
The Justifying Zone is a large part of why I have stayed in the past. And now I am older there is an element of “last chance saloon” thinking which is of course both ridiculous and potentially harmful.
Tabitha that was always me too- staying too long, feeling too long, careing too long, Understanding too long.. when noone was working all that hard to undertand me.
But it always ends the same, something was missing usually “Fairness” on some level.
And know I see clear as day the now the “fear” and these UM men work on your fears of abandoment, big time, still it always ends the same, As soon as you get some self-respect which seems part of the “bargain” to have them around, they abondon you.
You know, being abondoned now feels more like a “relief”, if I can’t have myself respect just to keep somoeone around?
Oh freedom, it feels better to me now than the crazy mess of trying to get someone to let be be free, feeling like some prisoner un-allowed to have my self-respect just to have them around?
Self-respect and fairness and openess is Not gonna happen with UM needing ego strokes for sure.
The hardest thing is waking up to see that yes they really are that selfish and would never let you go if were up to them, You can just live in the basement crying alone for years, while they are living it up with a harem far as they are concerned.
I dont think they even care if you die, just as long as you don’t dare maybe get something better than what they are giving you.
Guilty of hanging on to the past as well, and the past really gave nothing much to remember. I think it’s sometimes fear based.. “Like if you actaully used all the tools you really have maybe you would still end up in the same place, type of feelings.”
That is not really reaslistic becasue the outcome would have to be diffent somehow.
That can’t really go on forever either it will get old and risks will just have to be taken.
In your first couple paragraphs you talk about on-line dating and how so many people are let-down by it. My opinion is that it is really hard to find even a decent date with on-line dating.
I recently gave it a go, and was sort of disgusted with it, especially when I would write maybe three complete sentences – and receive a two-word text-like response. I would usually block those people immediately.
Then, there were the men who after corresponding for awhile would ask for my number – but not follow-through, call, and make a DATE. (sorry guys, but I’m not chasing you -DELETE.)
Most disgusting is the fact that ALL of these men want a portfolio of pictures and full body-shots — so they can assure they are getting a chance with a supermodel., even when they themselves haven’t been working out for awhile.! Delete.
So. No more on-line dating for me. I will try the old-fashioned way and meet in person in social settings. HMMM, that means I have to research and go out., instead of work my 40, come home tired and do errands and relax alone on weekends.
I make a list of want I’d like to do in a week, and often I write a list in the morning of what I want to do that very day. (often at night I go over the good things that I accomplished in my day – I like this for now!) and now on my list is To Do Something Social EVERY week. This weekend I’m attending a Gregorian Chant Retreat on Sat, Sun and Monday. New people with shared interest!
The main reason I didn’t let go of my bad relationship sooner was because I was lonely and not replacing bad with good. I also had a fair amount of ..I’ve invested I must be reciprocated! How could he possibly not love and want me ? Blah, blah, blah.
So, my advice for women new to the on-line dating: Don’t expect anything but Losers, and don’t take any of their nonsense. PS: Many of those guys have been on the sites for YEARS – and they all act quickly on the new members who are introduced….. It is a game, just like Donkey Kong – with predictable scenarios…
AngleBeary: spot on about the on-line guys. I gave it one last go round for all the reasons you described. In the past I simply hid my profile, figuring I would pull it out of the mothballs and update later on. This time, I totally deleted, explode, ka-boom. Each time I went on, sometimes 6 months to a year apart, like you noticed, ALL THE SAME GUYS…same exact profile, and now, of course, the photos are that much older. And they swarm on the ‘new meat’. Too many lame responses to emails. One guy just sent an emoticon…twice. Like the first time wasn’t lame enough? I think you’re right…it’s like a game to them, they’re searching for the supermodel/arm candy. I think the old-fashioned meeting in person thing is better because you can suss them out a bit before a date is requested so you know before the date if you would even be interested in the person. Too many times I went on that first date, figuring, like this article said, that I had ‘invested’ the time in emailing back and forth, so I HAD to go on the date. Nine times out of ten, on the day of the date I felt I really didn’t even want to go! And while some of the dates led to ‘relationshits’ of, generally, three months (when all the on-line guys tend to get ‘scared’ and bail) I started to find that few of these men were men of substance. From now on, if I’m going to invest, it’s going to be in people who I truly like and who show through their ACTIONS that they like me, too.
Ha ha, was laughing while reading the line about “all the same guys”! So so true! I’ve joined a dating site I used to use like 3 or 4 years ago and just like you said-same guys, same pictures, as if they’ve haven’t changed a bit in 3-4 years! And that actually makes me think – its such a good way of keeping the list of all the EUMs in the area:D Very few of the guys that ever messaged me on the dating site actually asked me out, I never cared too much though as I usually happened not to like them when meeting live (as most of them were lying about their looks/age/etc.).
AngleBeary,
I had the same experience with online dating, it´s good to see that I´m not the only one! I have a thing about chasing guys, not as a strategy but because it makes me feel unnatural and thus insecure. But I wonder if they expect us to ask them out nowadays? One guy who asked for my number told me I could call him anytime for lunch so we could meet. I was supposed to set the date, time and place. He, in turn, was more than willing to meet an “older woman” as myself (this guy was in his early 30s when I just turned 40. I think.)
Then, there was another one (this one in his mid-40s) who wrote me a lot of emails asking about my interests and sharing his. This correspondence lasted about a month and ended as abruptly as it began. Of course, I couldn´t ask him what was up because we never even met!
All in all, the openly kinky ones were more comforting because they were at least clear about what they wanted. Too bad I wasn´t interested in SM encounters, it seems those are easier to come by than a simple, plain date.
Wonderful site! Natalie you are a saint of genius proportions.
Hello, first post. Please note I’m only addressing women with this comment. I’m aware that there are good men who read and contribute to this blog.
With the online thing here is my strategy to (a)weed out the boy-men, fantasists, creeps, narcissists, lazy power playing and cowardly, the just plain scaredy cats and mummy’s boys who don’t live their own lives etc etf**ckingcetra! and (b)ensure that I don’t invest time and energy beyond what is necessary to logistically organise a first meeting (NOT date). Re: (b)- this stems from the reality that digital exchange of written messages with an *unmet* person behind a screen is not actually communication and if you choose to invest yourself in this as if you are actually getting to know someone then you have issues separating fantasy from reality (believe me, I had experiences like this which ultimately led me to my current understanding). Until we meet in three dimensions no ‘getting to know’has taken place. I consider this as a fact.
Here is what I do. I receive a contact request/email. I look at the male’s (I never think of the person as a ‘man’ until I’ve met him and then I will only begin to consider him as ‘manly’ after I have spent enough real time with him to decide whether or not he fits my standard of being in general a mature and EA man) profile to ensure there are no profile red flags. Examples for me are profiles that are in upper caps where there are complaints about all the shitty women on the site, profiles where the good fellow admits to being married, profiles where the guy says he is just looking for some fun. Down the loo they all go on full flush capacity! If no red flags I accept contact.
Now this is the crux for me. I do not chase men for dates in the real world(anymore haha)but online dating sites are not the real world. So after I accept contact I don’t wait for the male to message me,(unless he is online at the time and writes a message as soon as I accept), but immediately send him a message. Here’s one eg – though I have a number of variants the gist is always the same:
“Hello, I know it’s blunt but I have this low thresh hold/intolerance- for- cyber-chat condition, haha, which results in a belief that soundless digital exchange of messages with unmet entities sitting behind screens is not real communication. I enjoyed reading your profile and would be happy to simply meet (not a date of course) for a coffee/whatnot at a mutually suitable time and place to say hello in 3 dimensions. Hope to hear (read) what you think about this soon and that you are having a good night.”
Ok, I am in my mid forties with a child at home and hence only dealing with profiles where the male claims to be 40 plus, so I am assuming that they have experience of pre-internet dating. I guess if you are say 20-25 years old and have been using digital ‘communication’ from the get go (ie from early to mid-teens when boys first come into the picture)such a message could cause some confusion. But there really is no excuse in the 30s, my age group and beyond for any man who is (a) intelligent enough to understand the message intellectually and (b) has a minimal level of emotional maturity, to be ‘offended’/’confronted’ by this message or take it as a sign of desperation on my part. The only thing I’m desperate for is not to waste my time with dysfunctional unmet losers in cyber space!!
Next step – dealing with responses.
(a)positive response – we go ahead and organise to meet – this will usually happen within a week, if not, a set date is set when we both can and in the interim, no banter and fantasy building, and no chat beyond logistics, good morning/night as relevant and perhaps one early message exchange where additional basic info is exchanged – eg ages of kids, years divorced -. No time wasted, no emotion invested, clarity city! I would say about 30% of all the males I have had cyber contact with since implementing this strategy have been (a) respondents. Not one of them has ever stood me up or cancelled at the last minute, but if that were to happen – no big deal as I am not emotionally invested.
(b)wishy/washy response – the return message may acknowledge my message but then goes on in a chatty form – ‘so what did you get up to today, what do you do for fun? Well gotta go, hope we’ll chat soon’ (!!!!)and this is coming from someone who sought out contact with me!!-. Still it’s important I don’t waste emotional energy on long feeling what a doofus this dude is, so I’ll reply “Hi…., had a good day thanks. Hope you did too. Did you have any thoughts about what I mentioned in my first message?”. If there is no reply to this after 3 days where I can see the dude has been on line and had a chance to reply, or there is a reply where the question remains unacknowledged then it’s DELETE time, no what ifs,no woulda, coulda, shoulda regrets. If the reply is ok look forward to meeting soon but the dude does not then either ask when I am available or say when is best for him, then I in my next message mention my current availability – eg,this week on x eve/day – and invite him to join in organising a time. If response is either silence or more wishy washy crap – DOWN THE GURGLAR WITH TOILET DUCK ADDED. Ok, I reckon about 60% of them have fallen into this category so far. My guess is these are the EUMs, mummy’s boys, scaredy cat fantasists. I never wonder if I ‘missed out’ or should have been more patient, as that is doing disservice to the choice I have made to follow my intuition with the aid of reasonable and appropriate guidelines.
(c)No response. Hasn’t happenned yet but would signify immediate double flush if it did (after set amount of time – say three days).
(d) The last 10% fall under the Blatant disregard of message with or without inappropriate content category – could be the creeps, psychos, incurable arrogant woman haters – who cares they’re flushed.
Natalie and all of you wonderful Ladies on here,thank you for the support. I have been lurking and digesting the posts and comments for over a month now- my self faith and faith in the good men who certainly do exist ‘out there’ is steadily being restored. xxxo
lizzp- Wonderful first post! I no longer do the Online dating thing but, if I were to go back, it would be with your approach. Your approach is clearly reality-based and demonstrates that you value your time.
I live in the U.S.A. When I was Online dating, I noticed that men from every state–except mine–contacted me. So…he can’t find anyone, not a single woman, in his entire state? Seriously? Thus, should I go back to Online dating, if guy lives out of state, double flush.
Thanks Rosie ;-). Natalie has it right, I really think we have to chip in in the real world, it goes with the territory, but there’s no need to get our knickers in a knot online!
Re the ones who live a long way away in different cities or states (I automatically flush people in other countries). When I harbored a missing out mentality I used to get flustered when I got the odd email/contact request from what I back then fantasized as a ‘good man’. These days, if the guy passes the red flag profile test I will accept contact and send off a message that basically says hello, I don’t chat/text/phone/skype with people I’ve never met, Please feel free to get in contact through this site if you are ever in my city and maybe at that time we could arrange to meet for a coffee. I wait for a response before either deleting/ blocking if he goes on about skype etc or is silent, or, if the response is ‘ok’, not deleting or blocking but not engaging further. If the long distance dude tries to engage me in unrelated chat further down the line, I repeat my previous message, if he bothers me again, hard pull flush!!
lizzp, Welcome. I’m glad you posted. I’ve chronicled my online dating experiences on BR for the past year. I’ve used Nat’s many posts on dating and, so far, her advice has been spot on. I think of online communication as a way to meet in person. There is no way to know if this one is the one, if we have never met. I’d say, after a year of online dating, 75% of the time the guy is way better online than when I meet him in person. That’s probably because I do not “overlook” any red flags like lying about their age, incessant talking about an ex, lying about their employment or lack thereof (the over 50 crowd is different from maybe the 20-somethings). I really have enjoyed the past year of dating, since I never really dated prior. The few IRL dates have followed the same senario. The IRL guys present a persona and then when it’s one on one, it can be a bit different. I’ve been willing to invest in dating whether online or IRL. It has been a way, way better investment of my time than investing in being involved with a MM. Even though I haven’t met “The One”, I’ve learned a ton about who “The One” would be (and he wouldn’t be married or attached). Most importantly, I’ve learned about me. So I’m probably the only female on the planet who has enjoyed online dating. And, I haven’t had sex with anybody for two years. Compared to the cost/pain of being an OW, this has been a walk in the park. And I get to eat oysters on the half shell…while sipping a bloody mary…while the dude slips off into a recipe as how to roast a boar as the sun sets over the ocean. That’s perfect.
Hi Runner Girl!, yes I’ve read and identified with quite a lot of your comments. Thank God I have never (knowingly at least) been the OW for any great length of time- although the key relationship that really destroyed my self esteem for many, effing, many years to follow was with a man who regularly kept what Nat’s described as a ‘harem’ – I was his primary relationship while the exes, one night standers etc hung round in the shadows. When he finally dumped me for good – or I should say when I stopped accepting him back in any form post dumpings- I never joined the harem, but that relationship was formative (in my 20s, I am now mid 40s)and I allowed the experience to ruin me for anything else good for a long, long, time.
I really sympathise with the pain you have gone through and am so glad you have come through the blackness to the sunlight at the other end of the tunnel.
HAHA, I also haven’t had sex for around 2 1/2 years and even though I was in a relationship for a few months last year we both agreed to wait, so glad in retrospect as it didn’t work and while I’m still dealing with my feelings about that to some extent, I would have been in a much worse position if we had slept together.
I think it is you who has commented here and there that you will not sleep with a man until there is a mutual decision, clearly spelt out that you are in a committed relationship. I made the decision to have the same boundary 2.5 years ago as it is the best way for me to take care of my precious giving and loving emotional self. I am aware though that it is not enough to exchange words with a man re commitment, I really need to assess his actions over time, easier said then done of course but hey pats on the back to both of us.
Yeah the red flags!! I am so much more aware now. These meetings I’ve had at cafes with the men that have the balls to materialise from cyber space have presented me with an abundance of deal breakers I’d say at a 50/50 ratio. Like you, I cannot ignore this stuff anymore, amazing how the red flags scream at me, whereas 3 years ago I was so much in denial as to be deaf. Incredible.
There was one back in Feb who told me over coffee he was 52, whereas his profile said 43. He thought it was funny, I spent the time asking him questions about why he felt he had to do that, he actually presented as a funny guy and I enjoyed our coffee but funny don’t = a level of maturity beyond adolescence so I had to flush him (he went down with no resistance). Toodaloo…
Runner Girl, what do you do about giving/receiving phone numbers? I never give and refuse to accept a number until we’ve met in person, and I’m reluctant to give my number to a man if he doesn’t have the balls to ask for it – though actually I think Nat commented somewhere that this could be something to play intuitively and I can imagine a scenario where if the guy was a nice but shy Guy and I can see that he would like my number I may proffer it in those circumstances. However he will then need to get up some courage to actually call me.
I so admire your steadfast refusal to engage in text messages. You are an inspiration and I am making that one of my aims. At the moment I still answer them but reply “it’s better for me if you ring blah, blah…I’ll be home later tonight”. If they don’t ring or text again, well I guess they are masochists who have oddly enough flushed themselves down my loo…weird…
I would love to feel as you appear to…released from a prison sentence as the OW…and in a restful place. I’m in a process of working through my cynicism and sense that when I’m done I’ll probably bow out of online. I still feel far too angry at the doofuses I flush despite only spending 2 hours a week max on actual online messaging, date organising.
lizzp,
It was probably me who said I’m not having sex until there is the signs of a committed mutually co-piloted relationship because I borrowed that from Nat. It works! It’s good you got beyond your devasting situ. It is possible to work through the tunnel, I think.
Regarding the number issue: I simply don’t do texts. I’ve switched to a touch screen and it takes 20 minutes for me to type one sentence. Thus, texting is simply out of the question unless it is my daughter and then I’ll peck out a response. With an online guy, after a few emails, if he checks out meaning at a bare minimum NO reference to sex or body parts or anything that could be construed as sexual innuendo), I ask if he would feel comfortable exchanging numbers. Once we do, he almost always calls, if not, flushroo and delete. Who cares. That’s the second filter, the tele convo. After a year, I’ve only had to block one nut job. So I haven’t had a problem with exchanging numbers, not that there couldn’t be an issue. I only meet them at a public place. They never come to my place and I have flushed several guys who have invited me to their place on a second date. Nope. That’s an obvious ploy.
I agree totally about recognizing red flags much, much sooner than I have in the past…thank you Natalie. It’s a bit easier when it is a stranger.
I used to feel angry about dealing with the doofus online guy stuff, it’s just the cost of dating whether in real life or online. As I think about it, as Nat says, it’s just the cost of participating. I really haven’t experienced much difference between meeting guys online or IRL. It’s the same gig. Shared values, commitment, respect, honesty and something remotely in common and watching the unfolding.
Can you believe I sentenced myself to the OW prison? I’m forever and ever grateful I googled whatever I googled and hit on BR. Thank god for the internet and Natalie!
Thanks lizzp for your well-outlined guidelines for dealing with online daters. I’ve done this intuitively, but I’ve let some interactions drag on and waste my time. I’ll use this as my check off list.
I am not interested in th online dating thing anylonger, personally I am more interested in taking a dance class then getting out.
But you are right, it leaves way to much room for “fantasising” the person to have more abilities than maybe they really do.
If I was doing the online dating thing I would say NOT let any conversations go on for more than a week.. I would say if you cannot meet and meet up very soon opt the hell out before the day dreams even get a chance to start.
And then after meeting use your gut feelings full force and don’t fr*cken back down to any self doubts for anything.
I don’t put much hopes into online dating in general, but I was lucky enough to meet interesting men through this, who didn’t expect a fling or anything – they were just visiting my country and asked me for recommendations on sightseeing or guiding them through the city and in return asked me out for dinners/drinks, without any attempts to flirt or anything.So I’m sort of keeping the profile on online-dating site as a plain means to meet someone interesting for a night-out (as all of my friends raise little babies and I usually have no one to go out with), not as a means to find “the one”.
That is the better attitude to have.
I really was more intereasted in freinds first situations.
Just seems it was considered offensive if your wanting to go at a more “normal pace”, for the ones that wanted a relationship, But going 100 miles can only scare me off anymore.
Plus, I am not moving from Michigan to Afghanistan any time soon, most that had contacted me were from far away lands on the more serious paid service sites.
My patience wore thin on the date sites as they were simply more time consumming than just getting out and doing things.
But for others that may be the better option, I think it just depends on various factors.
I guess I lost the tendency to fantasise on who a certain person is until I actually met him several years ago, after a date with a guy who seemed sooo communicative and fun and interesting online, but when we met live, he was expecting me to “entertain him” all the time, hardly putting any effort into elaborating a normal conversation.
Now I always always make sure I video-call a person before meeting him live, as I have to see if he is able to keep a conversation at all:D I wish I would have somehow “transferred” the skill of no-fantasies in off-line situations with men at the same time, but I guess the universe had a different plan for me.
I really like your attitude that getting out and doing things is more beneficial. Maybe it won’t “bring” us a man, but well neither will emailing men who are in Middle East or smth:) I get such emails as well, but I only choose to respond to the guys from cities I that aren’t so far away / I have friends in, so I would have a real chance of meeting them, even if its just for coffee and a stroll around the oldtown.
And on pacing – anyone in here can tell-if all goes fast and hot since the first second of meeting someone, its most likely meant to crash and burn.
Lots of good comments about online dating. I, unfortunately, have had mostly negative experiences as well, but can see that much of that came from not being discerning and for fantasizing that these guys were really what they said they were without actually meeting them.
I have come to recognize some red flags: “He will just know it when he meets the ‘right woman'” – ‘right woman’ being the operative word. He has very specific criteria for ‘body type’ (yours)- if they only choose ‘slender’ or ‘athletic and toned’ – then yes, they are probably looking for a super model. BTW: I’ve seen pictures of those who describe themselves as ‘athletic and toned’ with pot bellies. Not saying they need six-pack abs, but come on!
I did meet a good friend on one site. I had hoped it would be more, but realize now that he is truly an EUM. That’s actually how I got to Baggage Reclaim – trying to figure out what was going on with him.
This is one of the funniest, briefest online exchanges I’ve had and from a man whose profile sounded pretty good.
Him: Do you have long hair?
Me: No, why do you ask?
Him: I just like long hair and big boobs.
Me: Oh, well, one out of two isn’t bad. Good luck with your search – I’m sure you’ll have no problem finding the perfect woman.
Him: Thanks
My sarcasm was totally lost on this dude!
I used to take the rejection personally, but now I understand that it’s most likely not about me – it’s about them. I used to get offended after talking to someone for several emails, phone calls and plans to meet and then they just disappeared without so much as a goodbye.
And, yes, seems a lot of the same guys are still there year after year, some hanging on to some old picture of themselves when they were younger. I was actually shocked to see an updated picture of a man on one site – I didn’t even recognize him, but he continues to use the outdated picture on most sites.
Someone had a good link on the FB page to an article about how prevalent people with personality disorders are on online dating sites. I think there is some truth to that.
I guess it is possible to meet a man of quality on these sites – it’s just up to us to weed out the rest.
Really I would much more impressed with a guy that is not even mentioning looks so much.
Some preferences like being clean cut, or style like casual or sporty is one thing since it may reflects a lifestyle they take part in.
But anyone looking for love really understands: “You have no idea what that person will look like”, and if someone is looking mostly for a certain LOOK? well, good luck to maybe get that only to find out they are a psychopath or something.
I think some of them you really need complety IGNORE becasue they have a teenage fantasy mentality revealing right there what thay have to offer is shallow and lacks deapth.
Especially anyone even mentioning boobs? Yeah I don’t picture a fine dinner and intriguing conversation, I picture hanging around in a cheap bar or his hang out like some WW wrestling match type thing, but not anything where a more mature would be interested in going, LOL!
Ah ladies — online dating? Online dating these days doesn’t equal meeting eligible men looking for ladies to date. It equals typing to people who are typing back. Literally, that is all it is. And some of these typers actually work for the dating website itself, as ‘motivation managers’ who are trying to ‘motivate’ you to feel good about the time/money you’re spending there and to get more deeply involved in the dross that’s on offer. I would go so far as to suspect they even have ‘bots — not human beings — messaging randomly and ‘winking’ at people randomly. Believe their marketing at your own risk.
As for the real human men on dating websites, just think for a moment what kind of man would be attracted to that scenario. Seriously. For every one intelligent, empathic, kind man, there are a hundred scumbags, thieves, psychopaths, and general loser weirdos. Who else would want to hide behind their keyboard rather than talk to real girls in the real world? You might as well hang around a psychiatric ward waiting to be asked out on a date.
My strategy in successfully finding a fabulous man was ‘doing guy things that guys like’. Because that’s where the men are. Rock gigs, beerfests, action films, good lively pubs, sporting events, walking a dog, participating in any group sports, things with cars, and of course cultural things like art/literature that have guys’ interests in consideration too. Think about it. Where are you going to meet fellas? At a scented-candle spa resort? A beginners’ French class? A cupcake-making workshop? No. You might as well be looking to hook up with men in the feminine hygiene section of the supermarket. You’ll be surrounded by other single women who are also getting it wrong. Go skiing instead — and not to a family-friendly resort. Go to a rock gig. Go to a beerfest. Try a sporting event (and the nearest drinking holes before/after). You want to meet real men, don’t you?
I have advise for anyone considering on-line dating. It’s where AC picked up all the women he cheated on me with. You can bet he didn’t tell them he was just looking for a little nookie.
That’s who’s on-line, ladies! Him!!!
I participated in online avidly for about a year – prior my current relationship. It was everything mentioned by all posters above. I had two actual dates and a whole lot of FF/FF. While reading BR avidly (I don’t do anything by half measures) I realized that my approach and the responses I received were as EU as they could be. I had recently been an OW, went NC and that was it. I apparently was not looking for another intimate relationship although you could not have told me that at the time. I had only two dates. One was mediocre, but I was not in to him. The second was horrible. I had spent 3 months fantasizing about that guy before we met. I found that lots of cyber communication without meeting leads to fantasizing which ends in bit disillusionment. Runner has the right idea. If you’re going to engage in online, insist on meeting quickly. Give yourself a chance to wean out the doofuses. That way you don’t waste your precious time when you could have been engaged in constructive, emotionally healthier activity.
Natalie,
What a timely post and I can relate 100%. I not only had an affair, but I kept it going on and off for 40 years! I”invested” in him and when he became a widower–and was free–and I was separated, I “spent” even more energy and time (money for plane tkts, too) to find out if finally there would be redemption and we’d have a life together. All is well that ends well, right? But, of course, we were not the “exception to the rule” and it did not work out leaving me feeling used and angry and like a fool for even trying to make it work.
I hope others who are currently involved with MM take these hard-won lessons to heart. It’s never a good idea to get involved with someone when you are already in a relationship. We did that and it was painful and the older you get the pain gets worse and the heart gets harder.
In my case, I’m fortunate that I still have my husband and he wants to rebuild a RL with me, even knowing what happened. But, I could have very easily wasted a lifetime on this MM. The first time he disappointed me–20 years ago–should have been my wake-up call. I refused to marry him when we were in college and he never got over that & all I did by trying re-do’s was put my hand back in the fire again and again and again.
I did what I did and was sincere–I loved him and thought we were meant to be together. I paid a price, but I’m done expending any more of my precious time on him. I’ve turned a corner.
Susanna the “meant to be together” thing got me numerous times in my long term relationship. Before BR I always thought my going back and forth with my ex meant that our love was too strong to walk away from. I moved on from him a few years into the relationship and left a great guy to go back to him. I know now this great love i had was just relationship insanity and thanks to Nat and the BR community I know the extent of the craziness. Yet I still feel bad at times for going NC. My ex can’t understand how I can cut him off and not even be friends when according to him we had “so much” I explained tons of times how we can’t be friends and that is not really what he wants. How it affects my new relationship and messes up my head. I had to cut my losses and move on. Putting my hand in the fire got me burnt every time and caused me so much angst so i will not go there. I truly wish you the best with your husband and hope you move
@AngleBeary…That’s extremely negative…There’s just been too many instances the world over of people meeting online and are now happily married and with families to know that what your saying about online dating is nothing more than a generalisation based on your own personal unsuccesfull experiences…I think the point Nat makes is simply that if we’re gonna online date, then don’t build up too big a picture in your mind of what this person is like before you meet them; and certainly don’t get carried away with feelings and future fake yourself.
First, I want to thank Natalie. I’ve been visiting Baggage Reclaim since December last year, when I googled ‘what to do when he cuts you off’ and guess what article came up? It quite literally saved my life (no joke). This is the first time I’ve posted so on to this topic – why this one, after never posting to all the others that have hit home way harder? Because I want to respond to AngleBeary…I agree with almost everything you have written BUT online dating is not disastrous. It is all that you say – but – in between the rough, there are diamonds. I began online dating with the only intention (following Nat’s advice) to have fun, not get serious, not compromise my morals, values, boundaries and do it all with a new-found self respect and growing self acceptance and love. And you know what? When you least expect it…yep, I’ve met a great guy; I’m not in love (yet) but I am in serious like! We have been dating now for months and we are edging closer to a relationship each day but we’re taking it oh, so SLOWLY. In my last relationship, with my EUM, I exhausted my emotions to the bottom of the tank jumping into a relationship what was toxic. I’m taking my time now to get me together but at the same time, I’ve found a guy who accepts this about me (and the rest of me so it seems!). Please don’t block an option off (like internet dating) – it requires time, energy, patience and a little bit of a rocky road before maybe, just maybe, you meet someone nice. If it happens the old fashioned way, great! But give yourself every opportunity to get out there and have fun (without the aim of meeting ‘the one’). Goodluck to you all (and to me :-))!
What a great response, lilliashanne. I too am in the same situation as yourself. Have done online dating for a few years and there are definitely diamonds. One has only ever been a friend, and am so very glad I met him – a truly wonderful man and friend. Another I had a two year relationship with and that ended purely by mutual decision but no hard feelings harboured. And, now I have met someone about four months ago – we met very soon after meeting online – basically after a few very lengthy emails we decided we both wanted to meet early on. We share so much in common and although there is distance (in miles that is) betwen us, we see each other regularly and are heading towards a relationship – we both want to take is ‘slow’ and naturally progress. I decided to make myself vulnerable and enjoy what we have, BUT keep my head screwed on at the same time!
LOL, Natalie. Ironic that you post this right now, because I’ve been (as usual) a workaholic lately, working my ASS off to continue to build my freelance career (got a new book manuscript edit job! Woot woot!!) while working full-time, all on top of my other responsibilities and my ever-declining social life (as of late). So I hear ya on the “When the EFF is all of this gonna pay off????” feelings, especially the feelings of depletion due to “overspending” my energies. And I don’t even have the TIME right now to devote to getting to know someone and feeling the same way over the relationship.
Teach, I think I’m an “XX” too. Hot damn. Gotta go back to work now. Peace, all.
Congrats on your accomplishments Rev u rock!
Congrats Rev! You are putting your energy where it needs to be right now. The rest will come but good that you are focusing on you. You got it going on girl and payoff will come when you least expect it. Xo
Lacy and BethD, sweethearts,
You guys are so encouraging, thanks! 🙂 I’m checking in on BR here and there on my little “sanity breaks” from work, when my eyes start to go in circles and I find myself reading the same sentence over and over again. The funny thing is, I’m not even working for ego or money (THAT’S for sure–no one decides “Yeah, I want to be a writer when I grow up!” for the cash flow). I think I’ve just always had a compulsion/nervous energy and need to keep my brain occupied so that I don’t head over a cliff. I know that my life won’t be like this forever, but it’s nice to focus on things that have a logical conclusion, a point, and a future. Not like relationships. Lol. Sorry, but at this point, that’s how I’m feeling. Hugs to you both, my little rock stars. 😉
“it’s nice to focus on things that have a logical conclusion, a point, and a future.” It sure is and you are right in that it won’t be forever! I for one really love how you write girl and you already have fans!
*tackles Beth to the floor with a big, gnarly bear hug of love* 🙂
“We can stay in a situation long past its sell-by-date due to being blinded by our perceived investment.” – I am in this situation (I can’t finish it) but I’m not kept in by the perceived investment, more that I’m afraid of being ‘on my own’ yet again, being single, having to face online dating again (because I just don’t meet men in any other settings). I’m just so tired of it…. I hope I’ve learned something from this almost-over whirlwind ‘romance’. *sigh*
Mary, I’ve been following your posts and I must say I’m a little disturbed at the reasons why you’re holding onto this guy. You can’t let go because you’re afraid to be alone and don’t want to go through the effort of dating again? Isn’t that called using somebody? Isn’t this the kind of thing we abhor in the men we hear about on this site? Imagine if it was some EU guy trying to justify his behavior “Yeah, I’m not really that into Betty and I see things about her I don’t really like but hey, she’s better than nothing and I don’t want to be alone.” He’d be torn to shreds by the BR ladies in a minute!
This guy might be an insensitive dope but he doesn’t deserve to be used as an emotional crutch. No one does. Not saying you’re as callous as my example above, but please consider that perhaps what you’re doing is unfair to him. Maybe seeing it from this angle will help you let go.
Hi Callie, have you updated with Mary W’s posts about this relationship at “Even if you have a positive attitude, you still won’t be capable of Jedi mind tricking people into being and doing what you want”?
I don’t understand why you’ve made the assumption that the guy in question is some sort of ‘innocent’ party. How come? What previous comments by Mary W do you refer to? She writes above that she is afraid of being alone again and dating again. That’s no crime. And yes,while she denies the investment bit above, there is no mention of his part in the relationship. However his part is certainly clear in the comments section of the previous article, where the brave woman writes that she has now taken the massive step of flushing a no holes barred EUMAC and geared herself towards accepting her part (her premature investment if you like)in the whole business.
(*To Mary W, denial does have it’s place at times and can be a useful, even sanity saving defense when applied over the short term while we find whatever it is we need to find to face a deeper truth)
Hi lizzp, Yes I’ve been following MaryW on the other thread and am very happy to see that she’s found the strength to end this unsatisfying relationship. My comments were based on statements she made on those posts that she was going cold inside, that he was unfolding and she didn’t like what she saw, she didn’t think he was the one or even very likeable – and finally, that the only reason she was considering hanging on was that “I hate dating so much.”
She didn’t say “I can’t let go because I love him so much (or even like him).” She basically said “I can’t let go because I don’t want to be alone and I dread the thought of going back to dating.” I still think this gets dangerously close to “using someone” and is not a fair and honest way to treat another person, no matter how much of an AC he is.
No, I don’t think this guy is innocent at all. I could care less about this guy. I really don’t know what his problem is, whether he’s EUM, AC or just clueless. But Mary was concerned about not acting like an AC herself and making sure she could be proud of her own behavior (regardless of whatever his behavior was.) I just wanted to encourage her to stay true to her own values, and not drift into murky ethical territory due to her own fears.
Anyway, the point is moot now. Mary, I’m impressed at how quickly you made up your mind and took action, as hard as that was for you. You should be proud!
Thanks Callie. I’ve actually been feeling very ambivalent about him, feeling that I like (even love) him very much one minute and that I can’t bear him (or the fear of the hurt he could cause me) the next.
So my posts are a bit confusing, depending on how I’ve felt when I’ve posted. Reading my posts back makes me see how horrbily confused I’ve been. There’s still a little part of make that wonders if I’ve made the right decision.
My post on this thread was a bit of a throwaway comment I suppose, a bit shallow and not reflective of the whole story.
Callie, Thanks for responding. Marie W’s addressed your comment herself. It’s not my place to speak for her so my response here relates only to where you address my question and concerns.
I want to say that I cannot reconcile what you wrote in your original comment with Mary W’s “treatment”, or actions towards, her now ex (as opposed to her conflicting feelings about him and his actions) as she presented in her many comments. Also, I cannot reconcile what you say was your intent above with the tone and wording of your original comment.
Sorry,
I don’t think denial is ever useful, either is staying stuck in an unhealthy, unsatisfying relationship.
Time to pull out heads out of the sand.
Denial is a human defense that develops in childhood. We all use it in our lives to some extent, usually in healthy ways. Denial is a particularly useful defense for young children who find themselves trapped in abusive situations where it is clear to the child, for example, that their parent cannot be acting this way and love them at the same time. For the young dependent child to admit that their parent doesn’t love them would be for that child to disintegrate psychologically. The denial serves to protect the child. As adults we are sometimes unconsciously aware that a particular situation will push us past what we can cope with at the time (eg. a Death – where the ‘denial’ stage is well documented) and our denial kicks in. Sometimes the impending end of a relationship can unconsciously register as a death and as the person knows unconsciously that they will be unable to cope with/will be overwhelmed by the feelings that will arise, their denial may kick in until such a time when they can deal with reality. I’m all for working on becoming aware of when our denial has outlived it’s use by date, especially if it results in harm to others.
Liz,
I’m sorry, but I don’t believe that living in denial is ever healthy. I believe that one should always live in realty, as life is not a fantasy.
Alison, we’re all allowed to have our own beliefs! No need to apologise. My views on denial aren’t based on my beliefs though, their based on my life experience both personal and professional.
lizzp
my brother remembers nothing about his childhood. my sister and I wondered whether to enlighten him then we figured, what’s the point? People deal with things their own way,and he’s married, in a good job, building relationships though he’s much more introverted than me. He’s not doing anything dangerous to himself or to others. I don’t remember much either to be honest, my sister remembers the most.
Denial got me through the first two weeks of NC after my ex and I broke up. The next two weeks were very rough. Now I find I am remembering that, yes, we actually were in a year-long loving relationship. I’m not sure I could have coped with that in the immediate aftermath.
Hi Grace, I’ve followed some of your comments with interest and enjoyment so I’m glad you posted. Yeah I’m sure that can happen (people not remembering their entire childhoods). Would possibly involve other defenses as well like dissociation, but this is probably getting too off topic for the thread!
One of the great things about this article is the no-nonsense way Nat puts it – if you’re going to participate then you’ve got to bite the bullet and accept the costs. It’s easier to accept a loss if we’ve been good to ourselves (our truth, dignity and self-respect) throughout the relationship. It’s also less likely we’re going to feel a drive to recoup on what we put in as well.
Having said that, most of us have a past and the gap between an intellectual understanding about what’s right and healthy and ingrained emotional habits and patterns can be wide. For some of us I suspect that in times of stress it is simply too hard to live 24/7 with our current loss when older and painful feelings are brought to the fore. For some of us this is going to happen, no matter how healthy our relationship is/was, and no matter that we are making progress in the work that we need to do. Nat talks about this in the code red and amber posts I think and makes the point that awareness of what’s going on for you emotionally is half the battle won. But awareness doesn’t instantly negate the fact that this shit can HURT bad. What it does do is help us to channel the pain/sadness/ feelings of helplessness more compassionately so we don’t punish ourselves.
There’s another sort of punishment though. This is long term and arduous work and really it’s not that surprising if in an initial period of NC after a painful crying bout I were to find myself imagining how the ex would be glad to hear from me and it’s all that he’s been waiting for to initiate a reconciliation. I might even go with this for the night if I cannot gently turn myself back to the reality, instead of lashing myself with the cat-of-nine-tails for daring to have such a fantasy when I “know” better. Though please don’t think I’m suggesting it would be ok for anyone involved if I did actually contact the ex during this little relapse. The trick is to accept on some level that the fantasy-cum-temporary denial may not mean anything more than giving your self a break. BUT it’s your fantasy, not theirs.
Don’t know if I’m explaining what I mean all that well. I’ll wake up in the morning and it’s Oh My, thank effing God I didn’t call him, because even though it felt like a ‘relapse’ last night (the fantasy or slip into denial) now I feel the tiniest bit better. I’m going to cry a lot today and feel waves of loss and sadness and longing, I’m gonna cry for my daddy and feel like that poor lost little girl again BUT it’s going to be more bearable than it was yesterday. No harm done if I don’t lash myself, or let someone else lash me, for being less than perfect the night before.
I forgot Grace, I wanted to say I think you make an excellent point about denial in that it’s not just about denying that it’s over but can also be about denying that there was actually a loving connection – we might need to put off admitting that (and of course the pain of loss of something good that goes with that) until we are ready…
Callie, no I haven’t been using him. My post was a little glib perhaps – I actually have huge problems letting go; abandonment issues, attachment issues. I really do like the guy an awful lot (making letting go even harder), but he comes with issues that seem insurmountable: going through difficult divorce, living between two cities, working ridiculously long hours. Which make him EU. He knows this of himself, that he hasn’t made himself available, and is apologetic and regretful.
lizzp, you are right, I am/ was in denial about the initial investment. I definitely invested way too fast. I got completely swept off my feet, didn’t ask the right questions, didn’t stop to take an objective look at things. Just thought “go with the flow”.
It makes me scared to date again, actually, to open up my heart. Because I only had such strong feelings for another person once before in my life. The feelings might have been misplaced but they are still there, still feel the same! It’s so sad.
“…I only had such strong feelings for another person once before in my life.” I think a great gift of BR is bringing the focus back to ourselves and the ‘whys’ of our behavior and feelings. In that vein, this statement should be ringing alarm bells in your head after you knew him such a short amount of time – I think you said 5 dates/weeks?
Your investment was disproportionate to what he actually had on offer. What needs of your own are you not addressing that had you put yourself out a ledge so unsafely?
I ask myself these same type of questions and think many of us have abandonment issues, etc., from childhood and beyond but they do not have to be an insurmountable, permanent fixture rendering us helpless in the face of them ever after. If you acknowledge your thoughts and feelings and tease out past experiential knowledge from present reality and do the work, they will not be some all-powerful bogey man that cripples you from taking responsibility for what you can do in the NOW to do better for yourself. You have the power of self-determination.
I hung on to a r/s long past the sell by date myself and by the end my level of investment was way too high measured against the reality of his behavior. (It was reversed in the beginning and I wanted that back, darn it!) It reinforced rather than reduced my issues of abandonment, rejection, etc., and my anxiety because I gave someone else to much control over my sense of well-being. Frankly, his behavior said he didn’t give the same damn I did.
I kept flogging a 3 legged donkey way too long because I had several years invested and he still threw out enough crumbs to think that someday I would get the return. By the end, my abandonment issues were much worse! My ego and self-esteem were as damaged by my own complicity as his behavior. I finally went NC over a year ago and am getting real with myself and not letting fear run my life.
There is an entire library of NML’s posts and comments here that I still find helpful in the re-reading as much as I look forward to the new ones. I think your issues will abate and your interactions will be more esteeming as you become more confident in your ability to interpret input and set boundaries.
Hi Mary W, I understand completely. I understand about the strong feelings, the pain and the sadness
I was in a three month relationship last year that ended in October. Similarly, I developed strong feelings for this man and I accepted and enjoyed them. But as this article says, joy in participation does come with a risk of pain\loss (the cost).
He began to act in ways that signaled he was pulling back, cutting off..Initially he tried to down-grade my expectations through a few dodgy actions etc, however when I sat him down to ask what was what he eventually came through (after a string of ‘excuses’) and admitted that he had nothing else to give to me or the relationship. He talked about being depressed and suicidal, and whilst I did see that he was depressed, I knew this wasn’t a ‘discrete’ reason for him wanting out. The thing was, once he took responsibility for how he currently was in the relationship, I was able to formally end it (a huge plus for me – a genuine step forward) because what he had to offer (he suggested a ‘go with the flow’ scenario – ie meeting when it suited him/he felt up to it )was no longer anywhere close to meeting my needs and my feelings for him would have been completely discordant with accepting this. At the time I knew he was sincere when he professed to being sad about the demise of the relationship and I knew that he respected me for making the right decision.
But…did any of this lessen the pain and sorrow, NO WAY,I felt very bad pain -…that was the cost of my ‘investment’ aka chipping in and participating. My ex man participated too – a lot- and I believe he felt pain as well.
Sadly, I self sabotaged a month or so down the track. I too have emotional difficulties in the area of attachment – Mary W I can take a guess at how badly you are hurting right now :-(. I tried to recoup a bit of my investment by getting in touch but was in denial about what I was doing. I was saying to myself..I just want to see if he is alright, maybe he is suicidal etc, when I knew I was trying to get validation – I was doing pretty poorly (though not too bad compared to the past) but if I had only stuck it out and got through the loss… This made it much worse in the long run…that is where the regret lies and one of the reasons why I still suffer some bad pains now.
**Don’t do what I did Mary W. That pain is worse than th still existing initial feelings of loss **
When we see that the man we loved, cared for and trusted, who for a length of time also loved, cared for and trusted us, is signalling that he can no longer maintain that love and care\move forward in the relationship it HURTS. We see that we have to bow out/let him go and that hurts – it hurts because we have given of ourselves emotionally so it feels like part of us is with them/remains with them – that’s the investment. Letting him go because he is who he is at this time equals loss. If we delay the bail(and even people with good attachments histories are not perfect, we all do the best we can)then that is because of a belief/hope? that we can somehow avoid the loss and get away with no pain. That we can recoup that part of us that seems to be with him whilst simultaneously remaining attached to him. It’s impossible.
Re Calli’s comment, I just thought what she wrote made a number of unfounded critical assumptions about your situation as you have presented it on the blog.
Lizzp, thanks so much for your response and sharing your experiences. Thank you for being understanding and not making me feel even more stupid than I already do!
I am reading and re-reading your response as I am not out of the ‘danger zone’ with this man.
I appreciate the time you took responding, I really do.
Best of luck to us both! X
Mary I was in the same boat for a long time, and beleive me he knows you have feelings, all of the feelings you have.
And he may even have some great qualities not all EM are just 100% rotten in all ways, yes some may have potential at some point later in life.
But right now the current match has a “sick” tone to it and that is someting you will not in reality be able to live with.
That is why the I can love this way feelings, and yet feel this other not so nice way at the same time.
The adult you knows you can love that way “if only”, The child part of you is accepting the less than correct parts of the relationship, “Thus those feelings we get of the our hearts VS the mind.”
Sometimes we have to grow up without them, and stop tending to their own issues that are childish.
I really think sometimes sticking around is not letting them do what they need to do for themslves.
And if he cannot do it for himslef on his own, he is not doing the work on himself.
So how can he be ready to do the work it takes to make a relationship work then?
And this even goes to the ones jumping from one relationship to another, They might not be alone but in a sense they are leaving everyone alone they get with..”Do you get me?”
Leaving can hurt sure you have a heart, But staying can hurt more becasue you have a heart and a mind.
Right now your mind is going to fight yourself, and then to know he isn’t working that hard.
Eventually it will leave a bitter taste killing the sweeter one that once was.
Unless he takes a giant leap, But until then? He deserves to see you walk and loose his current cruth, he is a grwon man he can do it if he wanted to!
Brenda, thanks so much.
As with Lizzp’s response, I am reading yours as many times as necessary.
I have read about, and been told about (in a therapeutic setting) the child/adult conflict, but you somehow helped me understand it properly. It explains why I haven’t been able to make up my mind, all the conflict that’s going on internally. All the indecision, when really there is only one sensible decision/ realistic outcome.
He won’t and can’t make a giant leap and it is not because he is rotten, but I needn’t bore you with the gory details of his life (he’s rather forthcoming), nor do I wish to appear to make excuses for him.
Thanks again. X
Mary,
How many dates did you go on?
MaryW,
I’m confused: Is this the same guy you were seeing before, or is this a new guy?
I’m also curious: Have you ever been ‘alone’ before, or have you been ‘alone’ for a while, and now you want to share your life with someone?
Sorry, but I think I ‘missed’ a part of your story….
Hi digging. The same guy I talk about in the other recent thread. I did post about an entirely different guy but that was some months ago. I am a ‘one at a time’ type of person!
Yes I’ve been alone most of my adult life. Two LTRs and many short ‘relationships’. Lots of hurt and disappointment, with long periods of being single inbetween.
And yes I want to share my life with somebody. Somebody who also wants to (and is able to) share their life with me.
The biological clock is ticking, and unfortunately I didn’t start to see the light until it was (probably) too late. Which probably adds to my tendency to be optimistic or plain ‘in denial’ with guys who are totally unsuitable.
Mary W,
I am in the same boat or sorts…
Didn’t start to see the light until it was all too late. Accepting EU and AC behaviour some of which includes statements about me such as…. ‘She is past her prime’ that’s right asshole, because you took it from me. If you get to 40 and still have not had a baby, we can talk. WTF? Utter disrespect but stupid me could not see it and went back seeking more crumbs. I have moved hemispheres now and can say i am no longer sad, but angry. It’s frightening how angry i am because i have had an epiphany and come out of a fog. I ‘may’ be too old to even freeze eggs now. I’m 39. The expense of which will cripple me financially too. I gave my heart and soul to this EU man and now i am left to pick up the pieces. To be honest, i am not sure i can…
One thing is for certain.. if you don’t finish it he will for you, just put the pressure on for him to be real, or suggest you need something more, that will do the trick, it can take really just DAYS to start healing when it really is done with, The only reason we don’t heal or move on faster is the thought or hopes there “might” be more and that is all, and those guys know that and use that.
Brenda I suspect you are right and he would have done a runner if I’d asked for more. It is going to take me more than a few days to heal from this one unfortunately. I am not doing so well on the NC front,despite knowing it’s what I must do.
You will get there Mary, The door to getting more will open up, and he will be seen for what he is, just a person that could not give himself and has nothing really to do with you.
Yep, I wish I had options other than on line but the only other option is being completely alone. The druggies and overaged ski bums are not going to be replaced with fit, retired professionals any time soon. 99.9% of the dudes I want to meet on line are going to reject me simply because I live too far away and they have plenty of options closer to home. Not a thing I can do about it. I don’t invest much emotionally at all because of this, try and meet ASAP and definitely before they ever see this town so I am not judged by where I live. I have been able to hike in new areas, discuss quantum mechanics, social justice issues, give a lot of advice about organic farming at altitude with these dudes; that’s far more conversation than I would have if I stayed home. Like you Revs I really should get alone and get to work, lots of stuff to do, but I am trying to cram a years worth of”getting out there” in a summer because once the semester starts, it’s all over.
I had a fling this weekend, with someone who lives in another city. I knew that, and went into it anyhow. We ended up talking a lot and spending time together and by the end, I had some feelings. Imagine my hurt when after we had spent most of the weekend together, he never asked for my contact info. Super ouch.
But I showed up in the best way I knew how, and I can’t think of anything I would have done differently. I made an adult decision, and while ouch, he had treated me well while we were together and he did not owe me more. But still, ouch.
That is because we are not men and cannot really do like they can do 100% most times, women tend to bond more from sex where men loose touch after getting it.
If we want no ouch afterwards be sure there is going to be a tomorrow beforehand or expect the ouch feeling it is part of being a female for most of us.
But yeah if was something good for one night and not demeaning after not having anything for a long time?
Then maybe the little ouch is doable long as it is fully accepted beforehand, Much better than the future fakers that drag your @ss through the mud for a year or more.
Just keep the good memories, us as women seem to have a harder time doing that.
The online dating thing is really getting me to flex my “stay real” muscles after the XMM. It’s a safe exercise at this point, when I am still unsure about what I am looking for/reacting to. It’s given me perspective: many out there just like him. I must be vigilant. Not in a defensive way, just keep my antennae tuned in to the signals.
Those two-word responses when their profiles say they are communicative! Those phone calls that never happen when their profiles say they are sincere! Hilarious, really. And sad, too.
A few months ago, I was invited to join a very large local book club that’s been going on for 20 years. I’d been told it was very special to be asked, but I’d no idea why. The people were nice enough, but I was so busy trying to squeeze my investment out of the MM, I hadn’t really bothered to engage closely with any of them. Last week I invited one of the women to a film and learned that they are all interesting in special ways (just like me). One was a retired defense attorney who changed the course of women’s rights, another had been a guitarist for Joni Mitchell, another had been the first to train dolphins and work for their release. Turns out, most of the men are single and like to hang out—potential friends right in front of me! I was so determined to make that XMM pay off, I had missed out on life.
Swissmiss- Thank you for your post. Yes! When I became EA and after my reality check when I was dumped by the LDR guy, I lost all interest in Online dating and have been having a wonderful time meeting people in real life. I’m not dating up a storm but have made friends through meetup groups and have met men through these friends, not always as set ups, just life being life.
Your situation wasn’t an Online dating fantasy but I think it’s the same plot, different scenarios–investing in and spending way too much time in Fantasyland, an investment that dissolves like cotton candy. Now I’m investing in real life, a solid investment that is bringing lasting rewards.
I just cannot understand why it’s so difficult to find a kind, honest man who works and is cute enough to sleep with. It’s like trying to find the Holy Grail. It’s beyond depressing.
Ditto!
what if he is cute, & has a good job, even 2 master’s degrees, but has bad breath?
don’t know what to do.
“Care for a piece of gum?”
“No thanks.”
“Really…please do…”
see, you wouldn’t date him, either.
it’s 10% of the population, people.
Interesting post Natalie but I must say I am finding the comments on Internet dating more so! In the three and a half years that I was single I tried Internet dating on and off. For me the experience was hit and miss. At first I didn’t take it all that seriously as I had recently broke up from a long term, and rather traumatic relationship but when I became more serious about being ready to meet someone new, and went back online I found that something had changed. Maybe it was me, maybe the Internet dating thing had become more popular and men were getting more…bold or spoilt perhaps? Maybe it was because I had inched closer to 40 and suddenly my popularity dwindled but basically I found that most of the men online were complete and utter morons! I write about a few choice experiences in my blog, although there was one which was so traumatically awkward I still haven’t the courage to write about that one. Here’s one that I wrote a while ago, I still find it funny. It pays to see the lighter side of things sometimes:
Love this! I scared off the last eum by asking him to slow down and get to know each other more. Wait!!…what? You don’t even know me and you want to take me to Tahiti? Move to California with me, spend 250.00, Oh and have sex too,,,,all within a week if meeting??
2 years ago I would have fallen for this hook, line and sinker but no more thanks to Baggage Reclaim!! Assert boundaries watch EUM run for the hills. If it wasn’t so pathetic it might be funny.
Good for you Beth! I encountered this type of EUM, the thing is, I fell for it hook line and sinker! Within 3 weeks, I was staying over, talking about holidays, and yes wedding rings. When I questioned where this was all going and let’s get to know each other he simply disappeared into thin air. Sigh… However, I found Baggage Reclaim and learnt a whole lot about myself and having boundaries. It messed with my head for months because I thought I had invested and didn’t want to lose out.
Oh and I met him online.
He didn’t want to be “known” that is why, you should be and are right to feel you just escaped being a possible prisoner.
This is right on time Nat I’ve been really feeling good this week.I have let go in my mind the love I had for the x I feel its a huge step because although I have not been participating in his shennanagins I still held on in my mind that deep down he has to love me and I spent all these yrs with him I deserve to get him to show me.
He is in touch every day but I think he’s trying to be friendly. I Don’t want that arrangement so I am not responding.He said in a text that we have been in each other lives for the longest and he is not going anywhere and I need to stop fighting it, then he went on to say how he wants to take me out.I know its all bs if it hasn’t worked all these yrs why would it work between us now.I don’t know how this is going to turn out because he has several girlfriends and I am not trying to see the outcome so instead of waiting around to see I changed both my phone nums .I am also looking to get an ap with more space so I’m contemplating moving.
I really hate to go that far but he feels as if he’s well in rights to ve in contact and try to hang around for sex due to the fact I allowed it all this time.As though I’m obligated to be in his life on his terms but I’m not and actions speaks volumes.Thank u Nat
D’you know lacy, you’re sounding SO much happier, sorted and together already 🙂 If this is what a few months away from that TOERAG has done for you then imagine how you’ll be in a year!
I can’t imagine how difficult it’s been to deal with all of this – sounds like you are doing INCREDIBLY well. Really inspiring!
Yoghurt thks for the comments,they help pull me through and I still have areas I’m working on. I read a lot of your comments Rev’s and a few other people comments too.I really thank you guys some stuff takes a while to sink in and I am a work in progress.
Lacy, thank you for your kind, appreciative words. I am honored that you have gleaned some wisdom from my ramblings. You sound like you’re getting much, much stronger, and for that you can only credit YOU. 😉
Good for you Lacy. I know it is hard when you know you really cannot continue but they won’t quite let you go. I also had that scenario. He was never going to make me a priority or value me, but every time I called it a day, he “couldn’t bear to live without me.”
If it helps, I was so very sad at first. I thought about him all day every day. I thought I would be obsessed with him forever, I was literally consumed by my feelings for him.
After a few months, I probably still thought of him a few times a day, but I could see him and our relationshit for what it was. Now, 9 months NC, I really couldn’t care less about him. I went to a work conference yesterday where there was a fair chance he would be present. I wasn’t remotely bothered whether he was there or not. I just do not care any more.
If anyone had told me this when I first went NC, I would have have dismissed it as nonsense, but it is possible.
I really hope you stay NC Lacy and look forward to a wonderful AC free life. It’s not an ending, it is a beginning.
Off to get my eyebrows done!!!
Lacy,
So happy for you!!!!!!!!! 🙂
Please get a restraining order on this guy. He is very disrespectful and controlling. He needs to stop!
Tonight is not a good night, after I told him not to contact me yet again, two weeks later he does, says he misses me, things are hard with the new lady, wishes we had never broken up, loves me. I finally agree to meet him where he says he misses me so much, that he wants to come back, I get these lovely texts in the morning and then it goes cold the next day, he has decided to be with her. The guy is a nutter, I have told him if he ever contacts me again I am taking out a restraining order and I changed my phone number.
Why is he like this? The relationship of over 5 years was hard but I finally managed to finish it and now it’s like he won’t let me go, every two weeks he has contacted me and I have replied, hoping against hope. I don’t understand people like this, what gives him the right to treat women this way. I am completely depleted and feel like I have no energy to bounce back.
Sandy- You need to stop replying. It’s that simple. By replying and “hoping against hope” you’re co-signing his treatment of you.
Congratulations on changing your phone number! That’s a wonderful start! 🙂
I know Rosie, everybody has told me it is a good thing that I have changed my phone number, I am strong enough not to contact him first, it has always been him getting in touch again…he just keeps on playing on my feelings and then changing his mind when things are going alright with her again..I will get over this, it’s just hard that after six months I feel back at square one yet again.
Sandy I’m going through exactly the same with the ex AC. Its bewildering when you’ve told them not to contact you again and you stick to NC, but still the texts come as if nothing had happened. I’m working on a charity project and the AC is involved too. after ignoring his random texts, I received one asking to meet about the project. I agreed (how stupid am I?) – only to receive a reply saying he was too busy! I felt angry and humiliated so I sent a text saying it was him who asked to meet me and I thought it was about the project. He replied ‘yes but I’m very busy’. I am really annoyed with myself more than anything. I always want to think the best of people but this AC’s behaviour is just weird. I know he’s not ‘too busy’ to see his other women. I should have just ignored him, instead of trying to be adult and ‘nice’ to him. He wasn’t nice to me and I promised myself I wouldn’t ever speak to him again. What is wrong with me? He’s probably smugly laughing to himself that I’d agree to meet him after the lousy way he treated me -and that was all he wanted to know. Why do these ACs always seem to have the upper hand? Sorry for going on – I’ve been NC several times and always end up back here. I know its all my fault. I just feel duped and humiliated.
Ughhh What a mindphuck! Shattered this is a typical example of gently dipping your finger in the fire and still getting burnt. He is a complete ass!
Shattered, babe.
First: ((Hugs))
Next, your words: “He’s probably smugly laughing to himself that I’d agree to meet him after the lousy way he treated me -and that was all he wanted to know.”
Ummmm…who the fuck cares? If he’s THAT pathetic and his ego is THAT flaccid and puny and in need of constant hot air to pump it up, then you’re already eons ahead of him and you don’t even know it. These guys may think they’re the bomb, but trust me, no one puts up with their bullshit for long. Take care of you.
Thank you both. You’re right – who cares what he thinks. Its pathetic. Strangely enough I had yet another text from him – saying he was very busy but that we’d always be friends. I had to reply to that (sorry!) and say no, we are not friends and won’t be meeting up. He replied immediately and I was curious what the reply would be. Here it is: ‘I’m enjoying the sunny weather’. WTF??
Shattered,
I’m no expert, but I think he has just blatantly dismissed your feelings. His was an inane response and perhaps an attempt to send you a message that your reaction is not important or valid. I’ve been on the receiving end of this type of response and it is infuriating and confusing. In my case and possibly yours I think it’s an attempt to devalue your sense of worth and that is never, ever okay. My advice would be to keep well away and don’t engage with him in any way whatsoever.
Someone posted a great idea on BR last year, that worked for me. On your phone, change his name to something that will remind you who he really is and stop you from answering it. Even “Don’t Answer” works.
Allison thks
Thank you Natalie!! Your insight and wisdom amazes,rejuvenates,and inspires me.
Natalie is brilliant! I cannot tell you how much pain and turmoil I went through trying to “get back my investment” in an EUM based on my initial attraction and attachment to him. In fact, I let him back into my life 3 times. I didn’t realize there was an entire personality profile for an assclown. I almost ruined my chances with a kind and decent person who makes me feel secure and loved. Thankfully, and with the help of Natalie’s insight, I have moved on from the assclown, and not looked back. The kind and decent person wanted to move forward with our relationship, even knowing that I had almost sent him packing to be with the assclown.
By the way, regarding the online dating topic, I met both the assclown and the kind and decent person online. I’ve run across many more EUMs than decent people online, but they do exist.
Great post Nathalie, thank you yet again!
Spending 5 years with the EUM, so many times I thought about leaving but there was always some excuse to stay to try to make it work. The word “investment” even reminds me of him as he was so obsessed by his stocks and shares.
I really lost myself there but now instead of looking back with regret, I feel I really reached a breaking point that I had to choose me. I now reach this point much much earlier when I meet guys who display red or amber flags. I still get a bit upset and think “poor why me?” and am still a bit emotionally linked to a guy at work I had a fling with a few months ago, who is a nice guy but less than a year out of a long relationship and just not ready. Luckily I only work now ad hoc there so dont have to see him much and we have agreed we’d just be friends. Because I see all the red flags I know this is the most we should ever be. There is some silly voice in the back of my head that is saying “maybe when the year is up he might be ready”.. Annoying.! I have to push this voice away and remember I am not a fall back girl! I don’t need a return on this investment. I was honest with him about what I want at this point in my life, and so was he. We are really in different stages of healing since I am 3.5 years down the track and can see my father so much in him that I know I need to run a mile!! Ahhh.. Writing that down has helped!
I’m in the final stage of buying my first flat, all by myself, and just can’t wait now to set that all up!! I have so many lovely friends who have been so supportive in the process, I could not be more grateful. Not saying I don’t want a man, but right now I am thinking about me. And I know when the time is right for me, after having this time out from dating and drinking too! (a long time coming Nat! Thank you for your guidance and patience xxx) I will be comfortable then to put some effort in to a relationship (if the guy is too) but also know I will be totally fine on my own.
Amazing post Nat, I think I was holding on still mentally, to what I do not know! I know that I feel happier since I went NC, it has been 5 months and 7 months since I last saw him (he works in Iraq) I feel free, the not worrying or stressing out feeling is amazing, not having to worry about what was happing with him and his harreem and what I did to upset him this time, now going back to being a happy, calm person! I have a great job, two amazing kids, I’m back to studying now I can think straight and saving money! And after 4 years I finally like myself and I am slowly losing the baggage. Funny but my ex too found all his OW on dating sites! Thank god for this site and finding out your not the only one to have met an AC or EUM and that your not actually crazy after all lol wow what a blessing your site is, thank you soooo much and thank you to you who comment, your stories have made me laugh and cry but most importantly have helped me to value me!
I find it very difficult to meet men outside of online due to the type of work I do. I’m not crazy about it. I have the same complaints – the same guys over and over and over again, unwillingness to meet, dropping off the face of the earth, etc.
Having said that, I don’t like the term “online dating” because I’m not dating online, I’m being introduced to people on line. Huge difference. Online dating is an introduction, not a conclusion.
If I meet some guy at a party, at a grocery store or at an art gallery, there’s no guarantee that he isn’t a “fly-by-night” jerk. He might get my number, never call or we might go out and turn out to be the maintenance guy at the art gallery not the owner. It might be slightly harder to lie to someone in person than online, but people are capable of it.
So, we size each other up to see if we’d be interested and take it from there. I’ve made a good friend online and met a lot of good guys, a couple weirdos and a couple jerks, but I’ve always learned something. I’ve even had a romance here and there.
My main thing is to strive to not waste my time with go-nowhere interactions. Lizzp’s tactics are terrific for this. I’ve been off of dating sites for the past few months and I now have more time to spend doing what I want. When I get back in the game, I’m going to take out Lizzp’s list and make certain I’m pulling the weeds out better.
I don’t think it has to be either/or, Marie. There are no guarantees that RL men are winners, this is true, but why limit to only Online just in case the RL guy ‘might’ be a loser? The same thinking applies to Online.
For me, I prefer meeting men in RL. It wasn’t a conscious decision. It’s just that, when I became EA, I looked at my life and began to make changes as I no longer had interest in Online. I don’t have children and through someone I know, I was able to find a job in a large city and move here so that I could broaden my opportunities to make friends and date.
I don’t have mega-bitter stories to tell about Online dating other than no men in my state contacted me and I want a real relationship with a real man. Now that I found reality, I just gravitate toward RL (BR and a certain discussion board are my support groups right now. I would prefer RL support groups but I learn so much by reading and thinking about what I want to write and how to write it that this Online support is fantastic too!).
Should I go back to Online dating, I’m following lizzp’s list to the letter! 🙂
I think you missed my point, Rosie. It’s not that I WON’T meet men in RL, it’s just that the opportunities are limited. Plus, I didn’t say it was either/or, people are people regardless of how you meet them.
If I happen to meet a man in RL and we hit it off, great. That hasn’t happened in awhile, so online has been my main route until recently. I’ve backed off on dating period for a while.
I sometimes think its the chasing and barganing and the indignified things we do at the end to try and save these single pilot relationships that make healing that much more difficult..We have to deal with how much we can humiliate ourselves aswell as grieve the end of something you had with someone. I honestly think if i hadn’t behaved like such a pathetic wrech at the end i’d be further ahead in my healing.
Paolo, agree.
Paolo, you’re probably right BUT that just means it’s ALL THE MORE important for you to have deep compassion for your wounded self at this point. Give yourself a break! I too have been the pathetic wretch, humiliating myself horribly on top of whatever the other person did that was humiliating to me. Massive heaps of humiliation all around! I still cringe when I think about what a fool I made of myself how I abandoned my own self-respect. Multiple times. Caused a lot of unnecessary pain to myself and to others. Hurt and grieving is one thing. Hurt and grieving PLUS humiliation wounds us to the core and causes bitterness. Makes us hate ourselves and even feel like we deserve what we got.
Now is the time to really treat yourself well.
I’m one, too. It’s painful to think how we degraded and humiliated ourselves. But those were reactions we had to fear. It’s easier to look at the fear than the other two.
They played on that fear to the fullest you guys, thus the humiliation.
The only way and true way to get even is to abandon the fear of abandonment, thus they loose their power and you gain it back, nomatter what was before.
Let it be a memory that you can look back at and be happy to get away from, not one that makes you cry.
Having a heart is not shameful and should not be taken for granted.
Good works, Brenda. I’ve made a pact with myself never to feel PLEASE DON’T LEAVE ME I’LL DO ANYTHING JUST STAY WE CAN MAKE THIS WORK.
I now know that his leaving was the right decision for both of us, although he certainly didn’t have me in mind when he did it!
I meant to write “good words”…
Paolo- That sounds like ego. Yeah, whenever I think about the guy who brought me here, I think about my own behavior and I’m just feeling…well, embarrassed. I ignored the obvious and let him string me along for a little bit and I’m embarrassed. Whenever I visit the part of town where I know he lives, I hope I don’t run into him even though it’s been a year and I only dated him twice. It’s got nothing to do with him and everything to do with my own ego. I want to be perfect, Paolo. I want everyone in the world to think I’m perfect. There. I said it.
😉 🙂
Paolo,
Join the club, dude. We’re all fools for love, or even for the cheap facsimiles of it. Take comfort in the knowledge that you’re not alone in that. 🙂
Paolo, Rosie, Wiser and Rev. Yes. I think 90% or more of us here have sacrificed our dignity getting into relationships that had a snowball’s chance in hell of surviving in the first place and then holding on for dear life hoping for a return on our investment. Thank God for Natalie and BR, our having found her, and trying to apply what we are learning wisely in our everyday lives.
Couldn’t have put it better.
Totally relate!
Wish there was a like button. So true Rev and Tink!
There is like a button, you just haven’t seen it yet. ; )
Agree, I have been making a complete idiot of myself, feel completely humiliated after the last meeting with him where he was saying he missed me, loved me and then went cold again, I wonder what is wrong with me that I will yet again revisit this totally mucked up man and still want to be with him, I beat myself up all the time and really it isn’t me who is at fault he, wish I could get that through to myself.
I met him online as well, 5 years ago, this relationship is just the last straw, not even the demise of my 22 year marriage took me to breaking point but this has, have even been to counselling. I understand that he won’t ever change and the relationships he has had over the many years have all ended the same way, so I know that this one will be no different, already after 4 months it is off and on, my therapist has said he likes to keep one foot in each just in case one ends, he then has one to go back to. I just feel sick when I think of dating, think it will take a fair while for me to get back into the game :- (
I donno anymore…everyone seems so burnt out just trying to survive, I’m wondering if “love” is a luxury reserved for the rich.
PP. I’m curious as to why you make that statement. But, I’ll say this if the partner is acceptable and you can see a future in the relationship, (love or friendship) money has very little to do with it. Notice I prefaced my response in that I’m certainly not referring to the chronically, intentionally unemployed leech, drug addict, etc. ad infinitum.
It’s amazing how many more accepting partners you can find when you have money Tinkerbell..Regardless of anything 🙂
True that, Paolo.
What i meant was that everyone I know is so exhausted just going to work to have food and shelter, that having the energy to cultivate a relationship seems like a luxury.
And Paolo is correct (although I wasn’t suggesting his point), when you have money, more partners are available to you. I’m sure as a man that is true, and as a gay woman, it is also true. I find lots of women want a good earner as a lover.
Even my young, beautiful, talented, energetic friends are all so burnt out these days, that in the evenings, they don’t want to do much else but recover from their work days. This seems new to me, this lack of energy to direct towards romance.
Perhaps it’s a phase. Online dating has only furthered these feelings of depleted, misdirected energy.
Oh, yes. PP I agree completely. It’s not easy to retain the energy and enthusiasm for dating let alone participate fully in a relationship. And, yes what Paolo is quite true. I always heard when I was young: “You can fall in love with a wealthy person just as easily as you can a poor one”. I, personally never made money a priority and had very little experience with someone who had money to burn.
Online dating, imo, aside from perpetuating EU-ness of both parties, is not very rewarding.
It is hard to find a guy with money you are attracted too and has the rest of the package. Funny and goodlooking took precedence for me. I was always attracted to “together” guys for sure but let big money guys go when I was young. They usually bored me or I wasn’t attracted. I never understood that saying cause if I am not attracted I can’t even kiss a guy. lol My ex that messed my head up was the first big money guy I was totally over the top attracted to. And had the means to spoil the crap out of me when he was in his “let me kiss her ass till she breaks” stage. The truth of the matter in retrospect was the gifts, trips etc were great but it was missing him sexually that always drew me back in. I felt like it was a sick addiction at times. I guess my libido still rules now as much as it did when I was young.
I think you all make really valid points..Thank you.
I´m so happy with your comments about the online thing, it´s striking how you can fall into the fantasy trap. At the moment I´m not on any dating site but I recently got befriended on facebook by a guy I have friends in common with. We chatted once or twice and that was it, he then added me as a friend. So now I´m left wondering what it all means, is this a way to check me out? Do men think they can get to know you by looking at your Fb Wall? Not that I post much, I rarely share anything but now I have this idea in the back of my mind that I have to give a good impression. Meanwhile, I´ve found myself wondering why he doesn´t want to meet in person.
(Or is he just collecting online friends? And what on earth would be the use of that? This is a grown man, not a teenager.)
Anyway, your input has helped me to cut the mental crap and get real again. I´m not cultivating my Fb profile as if it´s my résumé to apply for relationships. If this guy ever contacts me again I´m referring him to my phone number and a RL coffee, no more online chatting for me. I do wish men didn´t rely on all these appliances to make contact, though.
@Lilia..I met someone last year on facebook that meant my ending up here on BR..So yes, someone can think they can know someone from their facebook page or posts..As nuts as that sounds…It’s not just facebook though but anywhere online where imagination can take over. You just have to be mindfull of yourself if your doing it. Don’t let your imagination run riot and let it trigger emotions before you’ve even met them in person..And when you do meet them. The usual rules apply with regard to boundaries and redflags…With regard to the online friends thing..That could be possible..Some folk just like collecting hundreads of facebook friends for some weird ass ego boost. Iv’e never understood that, but hey i fell for someone through facebook. I’m sure there’s folk out there that think that’s nuts.
Lilia
it means nothing.
@grace..That’s a bold statement..How do you know what’s going through the guys head?? Lillia needs to be carefull as we all do.
Paulo,
Far be it from me to explain someone else’s post, but it means nothing because he doesn’t mean to DO anything. Who cares what’s going on in his mind, if it doesn’t translate into any kind of action.
He is passing the time, and gathering an online harem.
I believe some people actually pay strangers to be an online girl/boyfriend, to make themselves appear
more interesting!!!
Mymble
Yes though I wouldn’t even go that far.
I’ve added ppl on fb, including men, to help me get through the levels on candy crush. They are not a harem and if they think I’m interested that really is on them!
Grizelda
I do some of the”go to guy stuff” things; run ultramarathons, buy power tools, go to the one classy pub we have. However, since we also should be our authentic self, I avoid spectator sports, car stuff, hunting/fishing stuff as I hate these things and being with someone who is into this stuff would be a disaster. We have to be true to us first.
Noquay,
Totally agree – I have been told sailing is a great way to meet fit, healthy solvent men in my age bracket, but I have tried it and I hate everything about it. And if I did force myself to go and met someone, then I’d have to go, sailing all the time with them, getting freezing cold, bored , scared and nauseous ..ergggh.
It would be putting on a false self, and probably blatantly obvious to everyone.
A couple of girlfriends of mine went to a nautical course in the hope of meeting men. Their argument was that it was a male activity and that only rich men would attend because they´re the ones who own boats. They never told me how it went but I suppose it was a complete and ridiculous waste of time.
I went on a nautical course because I love boats and the sea. There was no way I could have done it if I wasn’t really interested, the whole thing was hard work and terrifying and uncomfortable. There were men, they thought I’d be good at making the tea. I kid you not. I soon showed them the size of my balls and got some cred. But instead of meeting a man, I grew in another direction. And when I did meet a man eventually I had some interesting things to talk about. Yarns of the sea, they love them.
I love the boats and the sea. Unfortunately, I never learned to swim, but it doesn’t scare me. Maybe it should. I love the calmness, rocking motion, (I don’t get seasick) and the endless expanse of the ocean. Also, I don’t believe in “male activities” and “female activities”.
OK, back on topic.
Seamstress,
Thanks for the belly laugh. I’m sure you have giant balls (ahem, yarn balls that is–trying to tie in the sewing angle and your use of “sea yarns”. ;))
Whenever women (and it seems to me, at least, to be mainly a female thing) talk about trying new things/going new places for the SOLE purpose of meeting a man, I get a little nervous. Because it seems very contrived, smacks (sorry) of desperation, and seems like a losing proposition if that’s the mentality they’re leading with.
Instead, I like what you did, seamstress–which was just trying a new thing to GROW, find new interests, meet (maybe) new people (not just men). That already puts you in a healthier mind frame from the start (at least from my perspective).
What would be really cool is if you had a wooden leg and told perspective dates yarns of wrestling a shark on one of your seafaring adventures. Just sayin’.
Rev, I am honoured to receive your comment. You are one of the BR massive who speaks my language. I do too have shark stories, fishy ones not AC ones. Oh okay, plenty of AC ones too. I also have storm stories and the one that got away stories. Sharks are a good illustration of how we unfold when we don’t build up a resistance to BollocksandBullShit™. You get bitten and all the other sharks smell your blood. Don’t be prey. Stay strong ladies and gents.
I def think you have to stay true to yourself. I am a huge sports fan and I have had luck meeting men at sporting events etc. It is a huge deal breaker for me if someone I meet doesn’t like football or baseball. I love animals so hunters don’t work for me. Fishing is def not my thing. I went on a second date once with a big fisherman on a boat out in the ocean. Spent the whole time heaving. I was mortified. I couldn’t believe he asked me out again. I couldn’t bear to look at him after that LOL
For what it’s worth, Bentley, Maserati and Jaguar dealerships are supposed to be happy hunting ground. The salesmen are supposed to be nice, too.
MaryW, I wrote this late the other night. I thought you were with an MM (isn’t getting divorced still married?), but if it doesn’t apply to you, maybe it applies to someone else here. It certainly applied to me during those last months before I got the courage to break it off with the AC.
MaryW, I just had a vision of you as a woman in a lake somewhere, in the water, but clinging to the side of a boat. The boat leaks, it’s not seaworthy, and if you ever got in it, it would fill and you’d both sink.
Thing is, you’re so scared to be in the water, all you can think/feel is BOAT!!! So you cling. You dream about getting in the boat (once you get in, surely you could patch up those holes before you sink!). Sometimes you pull yourself up, get close to hopping in, but then you feel the boat sink and so you back off. Surely the boat will be ready to take your full weight soon!
If the boat could talk, it would say, just hang on. Just a little longer. Until I feel like defying gravity and the laws of fluid dynamics. I’m helping you enough, aren’t I? You’re not drowning because you’re hanging onto my hull, my shell, my exterior.
You know where I’m going with this.
Of course, you can swim. You don’t know you can, maybe. Or maybe you think only sad sacks in unattractive speedos swim and successful women are carried in boats.
But you can swim. Your attitude toward the water is all that’s keeping you from letting go of a useless … oh wait, he’s not a boat, he’s a man, clinging to you, hoping like hell you won’t notice how he’s dragging you down…
Don’t know why that lonnng analogy came to mind with your story. But it did. You can swim, Mary.
god thats weird Magnolia.
My relationshit with MM involved 2 breakups where I felt I had to head for the shore. I couldn’t do it. In theory, I knew I needed to escape the relationship and therefore have to swim to safety ashore. I had an idea of he and I in a kayak (which he liked doing) and that he pushed me overboard and I had to swim for shore.
In real life I swim a lot for my mental health as much as physical, and have done many a length thinking, yes im swimming to the shore….
MaryW its difficult to cry while you are swimming. We’re waiting for you on the shore.
Swim Mary, swim.
Magnolia, that brought tears to my eyes. Yes I was with a MM, though he is separated and getting a divorce (I had thought the divorce was already finalised when I met him)… whatever, he’s still unavailable. He’s totally aware of it, sorry for it/ about it even, but not in the right space to change.
Your analogy rings very true. I am clinging on. I cling on to any leaky old boat that passes to be honest, until the boat gets tired of my clinging and floats off. Then I can look back and wonder what on earth I was thinking of.
Thank you for believing in my strength to “swim”. I can’t quite feel it myself yet, but hopefully I’ll get there, and sooner rather than later.
Along with the replies from lizzp and Brenda, I will keep reading and rereading your reply. It was kind of you to think of me and write all that down 🙂
As usual I am a bit late to the comment party but this post shrills in my ears and reminds me of all the dreadful internet introductions I endured. I could write a book about them and that would be embarrassing BUT to keep this positive I really did meet some great guys too. When internet dating was a glint in a marketing machine’s eye I had an online profile, being a young single parent with little access to any kind of adult social life. I always met prospective dates early on. A quick coffee and a laugh at the absurdity of it all was all that was needed to decide whether to proceed or not. One of the first men I met I still keep in touch with in a professional capacity as he gave me some freelance work when I was starting out in my own business. Another guy I met I ended up having a creative business with for 7 years but no relationship. We clicked professionally and it was a tour de force forged through mutual interests and passions. There may have been a mutual admiration party but we didn’t pursue it through complicated domestic arrangements and different values. We worked through that stuff quite quickly. He was a glowing beacon of EU But we did have mutual interests and that served our friendship well. It still does.
I also went out with some Future Fakers and some Arrogant Arseholes but I did that in real life too. I can’t blame the internet, only myself for not reigning in rampaging fantasies with stampeding sociapaths.
Then I spent far too long with the EUAC whom I met in real life through mutual friends; that bought me weeping and broken to these pages and I began to see how EU I was too, why I had so many relationshit problems and how I had to change. Buy the books if you haven’t. This is how to begin the journey. And it makes sure that Nat gets some well deserved financial payback for this free school of life.
And now to the current day, I met my boyfriend online, we sent two messages each, short and sweet, straight to the point and we arranged to meet in the third message. He came all the way to my town to meet me and on the first sighting I wasn’t enamoured with his looks but he was brilliant company. I couldn’t write it off at all. He rang me frequently and when he said he would. I went on another date with him and realised I was scratching the surface of a hidden diamond and we have been dating and getting to know each other ever since. He said and did everything he said he would, he has never been late or out of contact or shown any distancing at all. In other relationshits, if they took a step back I took three. And that leads to 3,000 steps apart and out of synch.
This was all well over a year ago. We did a ceremonious deleting of internet profiles on the fifth date, we made a conscious decision to not be friends on DoyourfuckingheadinBook. We are going to start to live together this weekend. We are talking about rings and ceremonies. I would say wish me luck but it’s not luck that got us to this point. And it’s not going to be luck that gets us through. I’ve learned so much and something about being the change you wish to see? He learns too. He knows I go on here, I spout BR ness at him both in jest and seriousness.
I am completely different to the person I was before I found BR. I wouldn’t have met him before. I wouldn’t have been interested in him for a whole host of vacuous and shallow reasons. I was an idiot. I forged my opinions on what I thought would matter to other people, not on what I wanted or thought. I didn’t even know what my values were or whether I had any. I was far too old to have not sussed that out. I’m not likely to get that paltry pathetic investment in myself back and I have to accept that I made some dreadful choices. Live and learn. Tick.
What changed? Me.
I changed. Baggage Reclaim helped me find my feet and reassess my whole approach and attitude. I made very definite changes to the way I dealt with everything. I committed to myself first, my health and my mental well being, gave up smoking, maintained and upgraded my neglected brain and my neglected body and then finally, eventually after much work and dark times, I was able to commit to someone else. Someone who was and is absolutely worth it. I just so happened to meet him online.
It’s not the internet or real life or the men, the hopeless ones or the good ones. It’s determining your worth from the very cautious but open beginnings of any contact. I think. Remain open, there are some truly genuine ones out there. Before I thought it was enough if they just had a job. That was the benchmark of my values? What the actual F?
Oh yeah, go on then, wish me luck, I’m still coming here to hang out twice a week. This ship needs to stay on course.
Oh yeah can I add that now I think he is the best looking guy I have ever met. Just wanted to add that. It wasn’t a lightening strike of ohmygodifancyhim connection but a slow steady growing to see beyond the obvious. Never had that before. I thought it was all or nothing from the first moment. **slaps self about head**
Seamstress,
What a wonderful story!!!!
Happy move in!!!! 🙂
Beautiful and inspiring post, Seamstress! I also love your term “DoyourfuckingheadinBook,” hahahaha. Sounds like a Nat neologism.
I am also very interested in what you say about, “If they took one step back, I took three.” I think this is me right now. This seems like progress because, in the past, if they took one step back, I took three FORWARD. But I’m still having a hard time cutting the person out completely, even when I know they’re millions of apologies and promises to change will never materialize.
Snowboard and Allison, thank you.
Cut the person out SnowBoard, they never ever ever change. I can testify. Don’t waste any more of your precious life like I have. Please? I arrived at 48 as a complete wreck. Whoever it is is just not that special.
Seamstress,
“It’s not the internet or real life or the men, the hopeless ones or the good ones. It’s determining your worth from the very cautious but open beginnings of any contact.”
Love, love, love, this. Thanks for sharing your story. It greatly helps me to hear the other side of finding yourself ( not just the struggle ), and that yes, it’s a journey to somewhere better within first.
Hey Seamstress,
I’m so luvin’ your story right now–way.to.work.
Good for YOU. 🙂
Good luck, sweetheart. You have everything you need to flourish, including a loving and generous heart that wants to give credit to our community here. Beautiful.
“…I changed. Baggage Reclaim helped me find my feet and reassess my whole approach and attitude. I made very definite changes to the way I dealt with everything. I committed to myself first, my health and my mental well being, gave up smoking, maintained and upgraded my neglected brain and my neglected body and then finally, eventually after much work and dark times, I was able to commit to someone else. Someone who was and is absolutely worth it.”
Theseamstress, I am about to copy and paste this onto a doc on my desktop so I can read it when the need arises. Thank you for reminding me that there are no short cuts when it comes to making a commitment to myself.
Seamstress – you go girl!!! What an inspiring and real story!! A thousand BR good wishes/thoughts for you as you go forward!
Magnolia I love your swimming analogy. When my ex did the one final ac thing to me a year ago my feeling for months was that I was drowning. It was because I finally “saw” how damaging the relationship had been to me and how he could not/did not care for me. The words came out of his mouth but he was incapable of acting upon them and I had minimized and justified for years! For weeks I felt like I was just trying to jump through o(rocky) shore. I have been crawling up the beach but am not in the bright sunlight yet. This whole experience and my working through it and understanding all the threads of it and MY role in putting up with it have really sapped my confidence. People who know me would laugh at that because I am considered strong, robust and together and I AM in so many ways!! But I wonder if in fact I believe I CAN swim. Food for thought. Thank you!
After two weeks into the tryst with my ex, I wanted out, though I felt so much mad guilt, I felt I’d never be able to leave. That feeling was based on defunct beliefs. He checked out on what we had often. I was a blubbering anorexic mess just trying to hold it together.
I was addicted to the highs and lows. The highs gave me something to look forward to and jarred me out of my depressive stupor. The lows gave me time to collect myself and allowed me not get too invested.
I didn’t want to be vulnerable or grow up an be responsible for my actions. I thought I was taking a clever short cut by being with someone so worthy of leaving.
The experience broke me. And for that I am grateful. It’s giving me a chance to build myself up authentically.
Seamstress. Am I happy for you! I know where you are because I’m there, too. My guy is absolutely the best person. Ultra devoted, reliable, thoughtful, HONEST. The list could on and on. I’m leaving next week to stay at his house for 1 month. We’re planning to move in together but I’m waiting for my apartment lease to be up in March. It’s a very big step for me. That gives us both TIME to be sure it’s what we want. I wish you the best as I do for myself.
I feel teary with all your good wishes and that the BR massive all take the trouble to step out to say a few words.
Thanks. Pure and simple.
I’ve been reading you all for a long time but am only just venturing out with my stories knowing how much they can help with the struggle. The investment that everyone adds and brings to BR has been my nourishment. I wish I’d been brave enough to share before but now I’m on a roll.
Tinkerbell. I wish you all the courage in the world your new start. You have been a lighthouse for many in the raging seas. Selkie, the journey inside is easy, you just have to painfully shift all the debris and junk from the entrance. Old mattresses, rusty bicycles, rotting ideas, then you’re good to go.
Swissmiss. Espresso ..BLUB…sniff etc
It’s definitely been said before but this show stopping phrase, ” I can’t give you what you want,” or as my ex would say, “I guess I am such a bad person” (because I can’t give you what you want/deserve) ….I USED to (pre BR) think this was just being honest and was so sad, but now I see it as lazy, deflecting and manipulative..oh and him being the victim. This was how ALL my interactions with my ex when I brought up an issue, a concern, something I was upset about, something I hoped would help us connect or improve the relationship, ended. He would also cycle through blaming, guilting out, attacking, cajoling, and even threatening. A favourite phrase might also be, “what about me, when do I get MY turn?” I SO resented him always making HIM the centre of a discussion which was supposed to be a response to a concern that I raised. Of course this always deflected me and if I got tetchy and irritated at this point he then could dump on the, “you never listen to me” stuff. In the early days I WOULD feel sorry for him and the rest of the time would spend comforting him, trying to help him see he was “not a bad person,” ways he could improve his life (get out more, connect with friends, take up a hobby). I sent a lot of real concern and support his way but where was the support for me? I ALWAYS resented it but was not aware enough to see this for what it was or to realize it would never ever change. I am still very irritable these days and if somebody says this to me again I just might bite their head off.
Ditto: I sent a lot of real concern and support his way but where was the support for me?
Been there, I feel ya.
It’s like we are the tomatoes that had so much juice sucked out of us with no “replenishing”, then oh how dare your feel kinda shriveled and used up? LOL!
We run outta juice, plain and simple.
You know Natallie, I used to get some form of “satisfaction” when these guys from the past would look me up confessing that they took me for granted and all that.
Somehow I just don’t even want that “satsfaction” anymore either, all it really means is they lost and I lost, and should walked sooner is all it means to me now.
Most times no they did not change even as they are appologizing, something gives it away.
But still I do not want even one more time anyone calling me to say they are sorry for treating me like crap, Giving too soon and daydreaming someone to be more mature than they really were did not work.
from now on I really need a lot of honest communication without that gut feeling of somethiing not being right, or hidden, and then sticking around to see just what that something is.
I dont want the anger, I dont want the pain, I dont want them wanting me back or anything, all I want is a fresh start anymore.
Oh, wow, I like this new format.
I thought of another life situation relevant to this post. A couple of years ago (around the time I met the ex) I was back at uni to become a teacher. I hated it. The classes were loathsome and I’d randomly blurt out my frustrations (not good) and drew the entire class.
I had taken out a loan for this school, taken a few classes, and notified my boss I would be teaching in a couple of years. I worked for the school district in my home town and my boss (I was her assistant) was a regular badass at her job (that woman helped and improved the lives of many).
I also had family high up in the hierarchy of the district I worked for and I had worked for a principal (not as a teacher) who acclaimed my work.
But I was miserable. Not because of a flaw in the system, district or anyone else. I was a fish out of water. I wasn’t in my element. I just wanted to draw, make things and study art.
So that’s what I did. I dropped out for teaching and entered an art program at another college.
I recently resigned from the district I worked for because it conflicted with school. I am so very grateful for the rad benefits I acquired. I am so immensely happy I was able to receive health care in the way I did. But I needed more. I needed work that filled me on a spiritual, human and soulful basis. I had to follow my passion. And you know what:
I WAS AND AM SCARED SHITLESS.
But I did it anyway.
There is something so utterly heartbreaking about talents that are not utilized or even recognized. It starves the world and those around us, but, yes, of course, mostly ourselves.
So now? I will start school again soon. My first drawing class at a college for college credit!!!!!
And I may be washing dishes for some monies if it comes to it (not even joking). But, you know what, I’m okay with that, because I’m trying. I’m trying for a better life for myself. I’m trying to do what I think, what I know, is right for me.
Oh, and I did walk away with a fat loan from paying for the teaching school I dropped out of. But, you know what, chump change (actually it’s a whole lot of money to me) but it was worth every penny and well spent because I learned where not to go (just as I had learned in months with the ex) and the experience shined a path on where to go.
Sometimes we have to cut our losses, go “meh, I’m still okay,” and MOVE ON.
Peanut, I did what you are doing 15 years ago. I decided that I could only work in something I loved and I would financially lose but my soul would gain. I admire you for following your own truths. I believe you will look back and wonder why you hadn’t done it before. I wish you every success.
Thank you theseamstress!
Shattered,
Block his messages n stop trying to understand… It’s crazymaking!
I really want to like this quip: “Depleted, dejected, demoralised and being in denial, are normally signs of overspend…”
As a matter of fact, I really do like it. It resonates with me, but it feels incomplete. Should it read “are normally signs have having overspent”? If it’s written intentionally, it isn’t clear to me. What am I missing?
Gah! Typo. “are normally signs of having overspent”….?
Seamstress, you speak great truths. I am a new BR attendee – 2 weeks now. I started a co-dependent journal that I call “Cody”. I write in Cody as necessary. One of the things I wrote was “It’s not about fixing HIM, it’s about fixing ME.”
I have purchased the “Dreamer and Fantasy Relationships” book, because that is my issue.
I did not have a dramatic relationshit ending…kinda fell into NC with my AC. Our last booty call ended normally, I kissed his cheek, and waved goodbye with a feeling it would be a long goodbye. Too empty.
He’s since called the standard AC plays….moved me from Maintenance Plan C (lazy contact) to Maintenance Plan B – actually phoning. I don’t answer.
Somewhere (maybe here on this site?) I learned that healing can be aided by filling emotional voids with creativity…so that is where I am now. Just trying to fix ME.
Thanks for your words. Gives me inspiration and hope.