In this episode, Katie left her eight-year marriage because she knew that she wasn’t in love with her husband and had always felt this way and a month after separating, she connected with Lucas on her first day on Plenty of Fish–she hadn’t even put up her profile picture yet. At his request, they exchanged photos and arranged to meet ten days later. Just before they met up, he finally ‘clarified’ that he was married but that he and his wife slept in separate rooms and so between that and her assuming that if he was on a dating site then the marriage must be over, they proceeded. Twenty-one months later and she finally called time on the affair but still misses him and remains perplexed by where things went wrong. It’s time to answer the question, Why did we break up?
The posts I mention in the episode plus an extra one:
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Better question might be, “Why did I f*ck a married man?” I get it, these losers pose as sad souls with frigid wives, blah blah blah but maybe one ought to ask why women believe these losers? What is it about you that thinks it’s ok for a man to cheat on a woman? THAT is the question I find most interesting. This loser cheater will find another sucker of low self-worth but seriously ladies, don’t screw married men. They love their cake and eat it too. Don’t fall for it and don’t hurt a fellow sister.
HappyAgain
on 07/09/2016 at 1:16 am
Bethtime,
I think your questions are valid for self introspection because of course anyone who makes that choice needs to understand what makes them make such a poor choice, including self esteem issues but the way you phrased things came across poorly. Ive never seen a woman on here express the self entitled feelings you infer as that is not the tone Natalie has set.
Bethtime
on 07/09/2016 at 4:40 am
Happy again,
I’m not sure what “tone” you are referring to. However if you believe a still married man is sleeping in a separate room from his wife while he trolls on POF and believe this for 21 months then you need some time away from relationships. This isn’t about a break up, in my opinion it’s about watching the warning signs for men (and women) who will hurt you and use you.
If you aren’t clear on the status of a marriage ask his “soon to be ex” wife. Most soon to be divorced men will be quite comfortable with that and if not, ask why not. Just a quick text will do.
This isn’t rocket science. If you “date” a married man you enter into very difficult water that can deeply hurt yourself, other women and families. Knowing this from the outset seems like common sense but sadly, this is rarely the case.
HappyAgain
on 07/09/2016 at 6:41 pm
Bethtime,
As mentioned before i agreed what you referenced is valid. The tone i referred to came across in the beginning “Why did I f*ck a married man?” that certainly came across very differently then the reply. Have a wonderful day.
G.G.S.
on 07/09/2016 at 8:32 pm
If a still married man is trolling a dating site he clearly has one foot out the door if not two. Sure some just want some random but that is an out from the current too. It’s mostly a question of whether they want temporary or permanent out.
There certainly are men who wouldn’t have married or stayed married if they couldn’t cheat whether or not their wives knew & agreed to open or discrete cheating always questionable (guessing by divorce rate mostly not).
The fact that men can leave or if his wife finds out and dumps his sorry backside he might be available that keeps hope alive. Not that it often happens but some times does. Married men are still men.
Wives need to respect that he’s there voluntarily. He can leave as such also as freely as you can.
I ‘ve only ever heard wives who relationships were bad to begin or mostly just for money /kids with feeling threatened by other woman.
Don’t get blaming the other woman. She clearly has issues if she’s willing to take such a poor bet with her self. Cheating is often a reflection of poor character (integrity and honesty in particular) which in a partner is bad quality short or long term.
My question is why the married woman seem to jump dog the affair partner instead of dumping their dick husbands? She owes you nothing. Your problem is with him/your relationship.
Nobody can make an honest satisfied man cheat.
Bethtime
on 10/09/2016 at 4:46 am
In my opinion, cheating is a character issue not a “bad marriage” issue. All marriages and relationships go through difficult times and cheaters don’t have the courage and integrity to speak to those issues. And often times in relationships cheaters front to be quite happy with their spouses and partners. What most cheaters lack is a moral compass, empathy and compassion. Those qualities are inherent in our character.
I have more compassion for women and men tempted by cheaters because they tend to fall for the sad sausage stories that they cheater is “disrespected,” has a “crazy” partner, and will be leaving their spouse soon. My point is to educate yourself that cheaters are not good partners and to accept them at face value is a big mistake. Even if you are tempted ask yourself, “How do I feel being with a man that cheats on his wife?” Is that the best you can do?
You know what personality tends to engage in cheating, manipulation, lying, gas-lighting? Narcissists and sociopaths. Dangerous people and best avoided. If anything as a young woman or man, educate yourself on the warning signs of these types of people. Avoid them.
Kirsten
on 06/09/2016 at 11:45 pm
Plenty of Freaks at its finest. If he was genuinely single, why stay in that house for 21 months? Because he was genuinely married, that’s why
Blue74
on 07/09/2016 at 9:28 am
But you’ll only learn / see it over the time, when you’re in love and trusting….
Besides: She ended her marriage… And there are couples who started as an affair and end in a happy marriage, too….
All I want to say is: It’s hard and you can’t always see it from the start…
Been there too….
Blue74
on 07/09/2016 at 9:36 am
PS: I fell for my returning childhood sweetheart. I was married for 15 years…. He told me he’d be divorced…
I found out much, much later….
Finally he left his wife- but not for me. Suddenly my situation (getting a divorce) was “too complicated” and he moved in with his new GF within two weeks.
He left her a few month later (claiming she’d be an alcoholic), giving me new hopes…. and now his with the next one. Again he moved in with her in days, and this time she got pregnant too….
Until he ghosted me I stayed in the friend zone, because our “history”, my feelings for him, my understanding in some way…
Rachel (lupie)
on 07/09/2016 at 11:55 am
Speaking as someone who has sampled POF, Tinder, Match, Badoo, eHarmony etc, etc; I can honestly say that married men are the absolute worst for trawling these sites looking for prey. I’d advise any woman using these sites to exercise extreme caution, as the men are rarely who they say they are! I’ve been catfished, lied to about marital status/kids, shown pics that are up to 10 years old – the whole nine yards. It’s a pathetic state of affairs, which is why I refuse to go back to online dating.
With regards to this particular scenario, I think if Katie was really honest with herself, she’d acknowledge the fact that she went into this knowing his situation was kind of shady, but continued anyways. Perhaps, she wasn’t ready for anything too serious following the collapse of her marriage? Perhaps she saw him as an opportunity to have a bit of fun, a bit of companionship – without the pressures/expectations of a committed relationship?
Either way, she did the right thing to break it off.
G.G.S.
on 07/09/2016 at 8:49 pm
I’ll never think it’s a good idea to be physically involved with someone who still lives with a wife or ex gf/etc. Even if they are divorcing. It’s a lot of ambivalence & power give away. He or she who is least in seems to get the power. It’s good to keep things reciprocal and balanced.
Katie is replaying childhood issues and being avoidant of fully acknowledging her needs but seems close. She took responsibility for herself ended her unfulfilling marriage & the affair and at least consciously is looking for what she wants.
It takes doing better some times before you know better and develop healthy habits and automatic choices. Like a cake recipe that’s just missing a pinch of something but you can’t quite figure out what.
stronger
on 08/09/2016 at 4:52 am
I am with Bethtime when she says, Better question might be, “Why did I get with a married man?” Why do women do this to fellow women? Still cannot grasp that.. sorry if I hurt anyone, but this is something I fail to understand.. why do we believe men and not check with his wife/ gf first? In fact, I’ve seen the affair partner refuse to engage, continue to disbelieve, humour or ridicule the wife/ gf when the latter does try to warn the affair partner. Unless we have each others’ back, immoral men will continue to have their cake and eat it too…. all the while laughing at us..
E
on 08/09/2016 at 1:38 pm
Because, if you don’t know his wife personally, it’s his betrayal, not yours.
It’s perhaps naive and foolish to get involved with a married man, but the only one committing a betrayal and who owes any kind of loyalty, is the one who is married / attached.
Bethtime
on 10/09/2016 at 4:48 am
You betray yourself when you are with a married man.
Magpie
on 08/09/2016 at 9:35 pm
Excellent podcast, I really enjoyed it. When Nat spoke about both having issues with ‘problem-solving’ very diplomatic, ha, I know from being in an affair for too many years (whose wife and children lived in another country, so I justified it to myself that they ‘weren’t in a relationship’ – my version of the separate bedrooms thing – and he used the ‘I can’t leave because of my daughters’ excuse when in fact he was a serial cheat, as I discovered in the first year, but sadly still stayed with him, he tried to have sex with other women and probably did so pretty much the first week after meeting me and this continued after he moved in with me) is that it’s all about escapism.
What it gave me I now understand clearly, after seeing a great therapist for years, but I think this is the principal driver for both. We used to play with escapist fantasies all the time (imagining a home we might buy if we went back to his country, ah yeah? when he was still married? to us thinking about getting married, to lower-level escapism, where I allowed myself to be blind to what was really going on, and how he treated me – my therapist likens it to years of torture).
As Nat says, for these men – and maybe women, don’t know – who so easily cheat on their wives and families, their attitude is: well, she knows the deal (I’m married) I didn’t lie about that, so that’s it from my side. I owe her nothing more. It’s her choice if she wants to stay with me. I have no responsibility to treat her with any more care than this. We’re having fun, for now and that’s enough. Or he’d say the fact that he kept coming back to me showed how much he ‘loved’ – mmm – me, playing to my desire to be chosen, again and again (just like a little kid).
Now when I think about it this man treated me with incredible cruelty and I suffered so much, even if it woke me up and I’m in a much better place perhaps because of it, even though it took years to get out. I hope that the woman who wrote to Nat for this episode sees a therapist and works out why she was so attracted to this man/situation: the biggest lesson I have now is to become the qualities that so intoxicated me in this man, in other words to take the power back.
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Better question might be, “Why did I f*ck a married man?” I get it, these losers pose as sad souls with frigid wives, blah blah blah but maybe one ought to ask why women believe these losers? What is it about you that thinks it’s ok for a man to cheat on a woman? THAT is the question I find most interesting. This loser cheater will find another sucker of low self-worth but seriously ladies, don’t screw married men. They love their cake and eat it too. Don’t fall for it and don’t hurt a fellow sister.
Bethtime,
I think your questions are valid for self introspection because of course anyone who makes that choice needs to understand what makes them make such a poor choice, including self esteem issues but the way you phrased things came across poorly. Ive never seen a woman on here express the self entitled feelings you infer as that is not the tone Natalie has set.
Happy again,
I’m not sure what “tone” you are referring to. However if you believe a still married man is sleeping in a separate room from his wife while he trolls on POF and believe this for 21 months then you need some time away from relationships. This isn’t about a break up, in my opinion it’s about watching the warning signs for men (and women) who will hurt you and use you.
If you aren’t clear on the status of a marriage ask his “soon to be ex” wife. Most soon to be divorced men will be quite comfortable with that and if not, ask why not. Just a quick text will do.
This isn’t rocket science. If you “date” a married man you enter into very difficult water that can deeply hurt yourself, other women and families. Knowing this from the outset seems like common sense but sadly, this is rarely the case.
Bethtime,
As mentioned before i agreed what you referenced is valid. The tone i referred to came across in the beginning “Why did I f*ck a married man?” that certainly came across very differently then the reply. Have a wonderful day.
If a still married man is trolling a dating site he clearly has one foot out the door if not two. Sure some just want some random but that is an out from the current too. It’s mostly a question of whether they want temporary or permanent out.
There certainly are men who wouldn’t have married or stayed married if they couldn’t cheat whether or not their wives knew & agreed to open or discrete cheating always questionable (guessing by divorce rate mostly not).
The fact that men can leave or if his wife finds out and dumps his sorry backside he might be available that keeps hope alive. Not that it often happens but some times does. Married men are still men.
Wives need to respect that he’s there voluntarily. He can leave as such also as freely as you can.
I ‘ve only ever heard wives who relationships were bad to begin or mostly just for money /kids with feeling threatened by other woman.
Don’t get blaming the other woman. She clearly has issues if she’s willing to take such a poor bet with her self. Cheating is often a reflection of poor character (integrity and honesty in particular) which in a partner is bad quality short or long term.
My question is why the married woman seem to jump dog the affair partner instead of dumping their dick husbands? She owes you nothing. Your problem is with him/your relationship.
Nobody can make an honest satisfied man cheat.
In my opinion, cheating is a character issue not a “bad marriage” issue. All marriages and relationships go through difficult times and cheaters don’t have the courage and integrity to speak to those issues. And often times in relationships cheaters front to be quite happy with their spouses and partners. What most cheaters lack is a moral compass, empathy and compassion. Those qualities are inherent in our character.
I have more compassion for women and men tempted by cheaters because they tend to fall for the sad sausage stories that they cheater is “disrespected,” has a “crazy” partner, and will be leaving their spouse soon. My point is to educate yourself that cheaters are not good partners and to accept them at face value is a big mistake. Even if you are tempted ask yourself, “How do I feel being with a man that cheats on his wife?” Is that the best you can do?
You know what personality tends to engage in cheating, manipulation, lying, gas-lighting? Narcissists and sociopaths. Dangerous people and best avoided. If anything as a young woman or man, educate yourself on the warning signs of these types of people. Avoid them.
Plenty of Freaks at its finest. If he was genuinely single, why stay in that house for 21 months? Because he was genuinely married, that’s why
But you’ll only learn / see it over the time, when you’re in love and trusting….
Besides: She ended her marriage… And there are couples who started as an affair and end in a happy marriage, too….
All I want to say is: It’s hard and you can’t always see it from the start…
Been there too….
PS: I fell for my returning childhood sweetheart. I was married for 15 years…. He told me he’d be divorced…
I found out much, much later….
Finally he left his wife- but not for me. Suddenly my situation (getting a divorce) was “too complicated” and he moved in with his new GF within two weeks.
He left her a few month later (claiming she’d be an alcoholic), giving me new hopes…. and now his with the next one. Again he moved in with her in days, and this time she got pregnant too….
Until he ghosted me I stayed in the friend zone, because our “history”, my feelings for him, my understanding in some way…
Speaking as someone who has sampled POF, Tinder, Match, Badoo, eHarmony etc, etc; I can honestly say that married men are the absolute worst for trawling these sites looking for prey. I’d advise any woman using these sites to exercise extreme caution, as the men are rarely who they say they are! I’ve been catfished, lied to about marital status/kids, shown pics that are up to 10 years old – the whole nine yards. It’s a pathetic state of affairs, which is why I refuse to go back to online dating.
With regards to this particular scenario, I think if Katie was really honest with herself, she’d acknowledge the fact that she went into this knowing his situation was kind of shady, but continued anyways. Perhaps, she wasn’t ready for anything too serious following the collapse of her marriage? Perhaps she saw him as an opportunity to have a bit of fun, a bit of companionship – without the pressures/expectations of a committed relationship?
Either way, she did the right thing to break it off.
I’ll never think it’s a good idea to be physically involved with someone who still lives with a wife or ex gf/etc. Even if they are divorcing. It’s a lot of ambivalence & power give away. He or she who is least in seems to get the power. It’s good to keep things reciprocal and balanced.
Katie is replaying childhood issues and being avoidant of fully acknowledging her needs but seems close. She took responsibility for herself ended her unfulfilling marriage & the affair and at least consciously is looking for what she wants.
It takes doing better some times before you know better and develop healthy habits and automatic choices. Like a cake recipe that’s just missing a pinch of something but you can’t quite figure out what.
I am with Bethtime when she says, Better question might be, “Why did I get with a married man?” Why do women do this to fellow women? Still cannot grasp that.. sorry if I hurt anyone, but this is something I fail to understand.. why do we believe men and not check with his wife/ gf first? In fact, I’ve seen the affair partner refuse to engage, continue to disbelieve, humour or ridicule the wife/ gf when the latter does try to warn the affair partner. Unless we have each others’ back, immoral men will continue to have their cake and eat it too…. all the while laughing at us..
Because, if you don’t know his wife personally, it’s his betrayal, not yours.
It’s perhaps naive and foolish to get involved with a married man, but the only one committing a betrayal and who owes any kind of loyalty, is the one who is married / attached.
You betray yourself when you are with a married man.
Excellent podcast, I really enjoyed it. When Nat spoke about both having issues with ‘problem-solving’ very diplomatic, ha, I know from being in an affair for too many years (whose wife and children lived in another country, so I justified it to myself that they ‘weren’t in a relationship’ – my version of the separate bedrooms thing – and he used the ‘I can’t leave because of my daughters’ excuse when in fact he was a serial cheat, as I discovered in the first year, but sadly still stayed with him, he tried to have sex with other women and probably did so pretty much the first week after meeting me and this continued after he moved in with me) is that it’s all about escapism.
What it gave me I now understand clearly, after seeing a great therapist for years, but I think this is the principal driver for both. We used to play with escapist fantasies all the time (imagining a home we might buy if we went back to his country, ah yeah? when he was still married? to us thinking about getting married, to lower-level escapism, where I allowed myself to be blind to what was really going on, and how he treated me – my therapist likens it to years of torture).
As Nat says, for these men – and maybe women, don’t know – who so easily cheat on their wives and families, their attitude is: well, she knows the deal (I’m married) I didn’t lie about that, so that’s it from my side. I owe her nothing more. It’s her choice if she wants to stay with me. I have no responsibility to treat her with any more care than this. We’re having fun, for now and that’s enough. Or he’d say the fact that he kept coming back to me showed how much he ‘loved’ – mmm – me, playing to my desire to be chosen, again and again (just like a little kid).
Now when I think about it this man treated me with incredible cruelty and I suffered so much, even if it woke me up and I’m in a much better place perhaps because of it, even though it took years to get out. I hope that the woman who wrote to Nat for this episode sees a therapist and works out why she was so attracted to this man/situation: the biggest lesson I have now is to become the qualities that so intoxicated me in this man, in other words to take the power back.