1. It’s important to remember what cheating actually involves – being dishonest in order to gain an advantage, avoiding something undesirable by luck or skill, to engage in deception and trickery, and to be fraudulent.
It involves lies, omission, manipulation, and for ongoing affairs, an element of being a confidence trickster. The advantage – two relationships and much of the trappings that come with each without being committed to either. Avoiding commitment, intimacy, responsibility–basically everything to do with an available relationship. Which brings me neatly to…
2. There’s no such thing as an honest cheat.
Really. Stop thinking that it’s the situation or ‘love’ that’s made them dishonest and that under ordinary circumstances they’re a saint. They’re not being 100% honest with you and ‘just’ lying to their partner. Bad enough they bullshit you but don’t bullshit yourself. They’re dishonest…even when they shag you well and make promises they have no genuine intention of delivering on. Cheaters lie to themselves–it’s how they can keep going.
3. Just because someone’s married/in a relationship doesn’t mean that they’re capable of commitment.
If you’re treating the cheater like they’ve been ‘pre-approved’ and ‘vetted’ via their status, you’re only proving you know shag-all about what commitment actually involves and that you like ‘titles’. Cheating = uncommitted = emotionally unavailable.
4. If they don’t have to work very hard to ‘convince’ you into an affair, you can be pretty damn sure that they won’t have to work too hard to convince you to ‘wait’, even with no genuine intention of leaving.
Half-heartedly saying “Oh we shouldn’t do this!” or “But you’re married!” when you’re in the process of taking their clothes off or making yourself ‘available’ for a chat and giving them a shoulder to whinge on is already communicating you’re up for it. Many people dodge Cheaters every day – they just say NO to Cheating Crack.
5. There doesn’t have to be anything ‘wrong’ with the relationship or the other person for them to cheat.
Some cheat because the relationship’s almost ‘too good’ and they rebel against it and play hooky. The only reason why you would think like this is because you’re likely inclined to believe that when your relationships don’t work out, it’s down to you.
6. Some rebel against the relationship/the commitment/the ‘safeness’ to feel less vulnerable and increase control.
If there’s problems or they have unexpressed anger, for example to their current or past partner or parent, cheating is like rebelling and punishment letting them feel in control. If underneath they have low self-esteem and are married to/involved with what they know is a great person that loves them, they’ll be scared of living up to those expectations and will undermine that image of them to lessen the vulnerability. They may privately feel disrespect that they get that love, being irrationally angry with you (if you’re the ‘main partner’) for not seeing that they’re not worthwhile and as a result giving themselves license to cheat because of your ‘stupidity’. In turn, while they’ll initially feel better in the affair, they’ll then lose respect for the Other Woman/Guy wanting them too.
7. Some cheater’s enjoy the risk and believing they’re outwitting everyone.
I mean come on now – only the most deluded of people would shag around left, right, and centre, send sexts, rude pictures etc and actually believe that they’re not going to get caught.
8. But don’t get things twisted and believe that the ‘risk’ a cheat takes is indicative of how deep their feelings run for you and how they can’t resist you.
Remember they’re cheating, so they’re managing the risk through deception at both ends and they often think they’re charming enough that should they get caught, they’ll cross that bridge when they come to it. If you’re who they’re cheating with, they think they can keep you in your place and if you’re who they’re cheating on, they think they can talk you around. Just call yourself ‘putty’.
9. You’ll notice that when a cheat says they’re going to leave, they’re never in a position to do it immediately.
They’ll say they need more time, the right moment, and to get some stuff organised. They’re stalling. If they really had to leave, the affair would never have started in the first place.
10. You’ll also notice that when you tell them that it’s over, they never say “Oh OK then!”
They’ll convince you to hold on, up the ante on pursuing you and Future Faking, or they’ll back off a bit and then try to slink back in when they think you’ve calmed down.
11. Be careful when you hear the magic words “You know where I am if you ever want to start up again.”
They think you’re the type of person that keeps going back to the relationship crime scene. That and they’re also telling you that an affair is all that’s on offer.
12. Even though they take the piss and risk their main relationship, they’re very image conscious and so will often be more worried about their peers finding out than they would their partner.
They likely think they can talk them around but they’d like to keep their public image intact. Don’t believe me? This is why super injunctions exist. I’ve heard from readers who have been threatened by the Cheater, or they’ve gone around trying to talk charm the Other Woman/Guy’s colleagues/friends/family.
13. The Cheater that slags off their partner will slag you off too.
Nobody gets ‘driven’ to cheat and ‘driven’ to be disrespectful.
14. If you’re who they have an affair with, you have a pretty good window into how they manage problems and intimacy – by shagging around and having an affair.
There are many ways to solve problems in relationships – cheating isn’t one of them. If you’re who they’re cheating with, keep in mind that if you experience issues, you’re going to experience similar behaviour.
15. If you stay with a cheater, they privately and sometimes openly lose respect for you.
Even though they may be like in a dog in a manger trying to stop you from being with someone else so that you remain an option, most cheaters will have your cards marked because people who know their value don’t tie themselves up with someone that’s unavailable and cheating.
16. Cheaters are scared of leaving their relationship and of letting go of the affair for fear of making a mistake.
They want some guarantees, so they do neither, not realising that this is still a mistake although in their mind it’s not as great a mistake as the others that they’re avoiding. The deception is their way of minimising the opportunity for the mistake which gives them the best of both worlds.
Cheaters being as lazy as they are decide even if it’s subconsciously, that if the Other Woman/Guy is that great, they’ll leave and if their main partner is so fabulous, they’ll stop. As usual they dodge responsibility.
17. Sometimes people cheat as an exit strategy.
They either hope they’ll get caught and if they don’t, they ‘allow’ the guilt to overwhelm them so that it gives them the excuse to end things in a big dramatic confession – sabotage! And lazy!
18. Cheaters put the Other Woman/Guy on layaway.
On paper they possibly recognise that you’re a great person so by getting involved with you (and probably blowing smoke up your arse with some Future Faking and Fast Forwarding), they take you off the market and put you behind the ‘counter’ with an option to buy, which they may never exercise. Unlike TK Maxx, affairs often have no time limit, so you can languish away on the shelf while they go about their merry way, sometimes throwing a few crumbs in to top up the layaway. You catch my drift…
Your thoughts?
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I had a discussion with (now Ex-) Mr Unavailable – interestingly all his “friends” are off a dating/hookup website and only now do I realise they ALL were his ex-hookup/shag buddies who he had played the friend card to, creating a semi-permanent harem that would slowly turn over. His phone would never stop beeping and ringing, even late into the night – probably more booty call requests!
When prodded, he said “I think its ok to date other people if there has been no discussion about starting a monogamous or committed relationship” which set all the alarms in the building off. Does “date” include shagging everyone in sight?
SERIOUSLY if it has got to the kissing stage, let alone shagging, I should not have to run off to a lawyer and sign some official title or something with 101 terms and conditions to “officiallise” myself or make it clear that the hangers on should hit the road. To these people, NOT raising The Discussion / Magic Words seems to be free license to Get Out of Jail For Free!
My past MM fits #2, #7, #8 and #16 perfectly, especially #2. This guy doesn’t think he’s a ‘bad’ person and actually told me he had a ‘liberal’ view of marriage – whatever that means. LOL whatever. the fact that I was ever involved with him is an absolute embarassment to me. I’m better than that and I’m smarter than that. And to think he wanted to be friends…friends??? I don’t even know who he really is and with a friend like that, who’d need an enemy? All I can do is forgive myself of such lunacy and then, yes, forgive him so I’m not carrying around any bitterness. I guess I read these posts just for self-confirmation that I’m not crazy – I just got caught up in a vulnerable moment…that lasted 3 years. LOL It’s sad yet nice to know I’m not the only one. This is my therapy. 🙂
Once I had a “thing” with a guy that had a girlfriend. He and I never got physical but sent some “heavy” long-winded emails. After six months or so I finally called it quits. He wasn’t going to leave his girlfriend for me. When I told him I was not going to talk to him anymore, he said it was my choice whatever I decided to do and that he did enjoy my company. That was the end of it. No begging me to stick around or emails after that. It was gone like presto.
Wow !!! How timely.
My “boyfriend” of 2 years just dumped me last month.
He told his wife that he had an affair with me & wanted to leave.
Within hrs I had a stalker on my hand. She mobilized his entire family
with preaching fire and brimstone…
I went to the police and a lawyer and guess what HE was pissed because how could he explain to his kids (youngest stepchild is 29 !!!! and living at home with them including husband and kiddo) that their mother went to prison. It was ALL his fault … he makes her act that way ….. and turned on me , and told me I should have asked him first before I went to the cops for help. He came by the house, brought the biggest bouquet of flowers, wished me a Happy Birthday, cried, told me he loved me – and next time I saw him … he acted like I have the bubonic plaque.
Unfortunately we still see each other at work 3 days out of 6 (just a few minutes for debriefings / I just got recently promoted ) and occasional at the gym – which I try to avoid at all cost.
It still hurts like crazy .
Shamefully I’ve been at all three points of the cheating triangle – the one who cheats, the one he cheats with and the one he cheats on. It’s a big giant mess. If you are okay with cheating (and, unfortunately, if you’re the OW your actions say that you are), you must have very dubious attitudes to relationships and to love. For me, I did use cheating as an exit strategy, being so EU that I didn’t know which way was up. For instance, I cheated on the abusive ex, exchanging an AC for an EU (who actually hurt me more, ironically). Cheating is not a good way to pick a partner!
Thankfully, when the returning sweetheart presented me with the “opportunity” to be the OW, something inside me screamed “NOOOooooOO, not this shizz again!” Cos that’s what it is. It’s not some great love story and you’re not angelina jolie.
I’m so glad you brought up #5, 6 & 7. Lately it seems, Ive been having conversations about relationships where one party has cheated, and there seems to be a real tendency to blame the victim, ie: “well, if he was getting what he needed at home, he wouldn’t have been fooling around.” I always find those “justifications” pretty suspect, and hold that, even if the original relationship has flaws, those should be worked out, rather than simply using the opportunity to cheat.
christina
I agree, though “working it out” can also include leaving the relationship. Unfortunately, the EU (I know cos this is what I did) find it really difficult to end relationships. Hence the cheating as an exit route. By the way, that’s why EUMs string us along instead of ending it decently. They don’t know about ending relationships – it’s just not a concept they understand. So please don’t wait for him to put you out of your misery. Do it for yourself.
I agree with Christina. Those justifications ARE suspect. It puts ALL of the responsibility on the woman, as if she can control or change him, and it leaves the man with no responsibility whatsoever….. hence continuing the “boys will be boys” and “I can’t help it, I’m a man” myths. It even pits women against each other, which is a sad shame in and of itself.
It’s blogger-hogger here again! (no, I don’t have anything else to do – I am single!! And not waiting for any EU or MM to call!)
I had a ‘thing’ with an MM 15 years ago. I was crazy about him – no, I was just crazy! Suffice to say I am bitterly regretful about the whole thing. I justifed it with the usual piffle about being soooo in love and not being able to help it. Pah!
Here’s what I learned: MM is Walter Mitty. These guys are lying their asses off to EVERYONE. I nearly had a nervous breakdown when I found out the lies he had told me – seriously, it knocked me for seven.
And yes, they lose respect for you.
It only lasts until the wife finds out. Then he runs home blubbering all tears and snotters and you are not so interesting anymore.
Nat’s post is exactly as it is.
The way he behaves with his current wife is the way he handles his relationships – including yours. You are NOT a special case.
If you are OW… you will live to regret it. Bitterly. That’s the only certainty you have.
Over and out.
I may be a bit ‘oversensitive’ but my previous relationship was all about cheating as was the long term one before. I’m talking chain cheating here.
The EUM I’m now conducting NC with (succesfully for a month as of today yeey) I had no jealousy at first what so ever. We were so in love and blah blah. But after a month or so, he said a woman had asked him for a drink on a night out and he was ‘thinking about it’. At that point, nasty detail, I was pregnant, with no intention of keeping it, but it was a VERY big issue, of course, and I tried to handle it with dignity and calmly let this happen to me (well, at the time I thought happen to US)
I immediately said I wasn’t ok with that proposed drink, especialy since the woman in perticular showed no interest in who I was at all. He didn’t accept the invite, but on a later night out, he was dj-ing at a party she showed up all groomed up and way too early. I told him I didn’t like the situation, calmly, to give him a chance to be fair about this. At first nothing was on, she was just showing off, but later at night, wham, she was next to him at the dj-booth. I approached, asked her to move aside calmly but firm so I could talk to my boyfriend which she refused. I told her to ‘rapidly move her ass’ which she did and she left all drama queen, and the EUM got extremely mad, said I embarrased him.
That was the very first time I started not to trust him, and although I still believe he never cheated on me (but who’s to say, everybody’s all ‘oh he is really trustworthy, but they weren’t in a relationship with him of course)
a large number of occasions, when women made a move, these women would enter our lives slowly but definitely there.
There was always an opening, he’d say ‘what can I do, she’s a friend of my friends, so I can’t just be rude can I’.
He of course from the very beginning pointed the finger at me and my past and said ‘I never cheated on any girlfriend’.
But what is cheating anyway ?
If I have to step aside every time a woman tries to put her finger on the relationship and that actualy works to, then, is he trustworthy ?
I still feel like he’s not and I just can’t shake the feeling, frankly, no matter how my previous relationships were, this is personal to him.
I also know that my paranoia can get pretty far, but I always try to maintain myself and put my both feet on…
Sofie, I know that feeling. My ex was the same. I think he desperately needed attention from other women to make him feel good (due to his low self esteem) and always said it was me. That I was somehow imagining his behavior, that I was jealous. I was only ever reacting to the clear ‘odd behavior’ that I was finding myself in the middle of. We would show up at an event and some other woman would fly at him all hugs like they are the best of, and he would act like ‘oh shit’ and put up a wall, and the woman would be like “what’s up” and then he’d say “have you met Barbara” (note not introducing me as the significant other that he was living with and living off financially!) and I would have to say, HI I AM THE GIRLFRIEND. Then however these women would linger around him all night and he would act like an ass, paying attention to them, holding one woman’s purse… “I don’t know I hardly know her but you know I am a nice guy” bullshit comments…
I kept excusing it all because I had NO DIRECT EVIDENCE, but after dealing with this for far too long on top of all the other EU behavior, one night he stayed out to 4 am with one of these ‘friends’ and called her up moments before he walked in our door. I questioned why? He had some bullshit answer about thanking her for the beer she bought him.
To this day he states he never cheated on me… but he made me feel cheated on. So what is the difference anymore if he actually did or didn’t… right? Right.
Barbara, a bit late in respons, but I agree with you, especially here:
“To this day he states he never cheated on me… but he made me feel cheated on. So what is the difference anymore if he actually did or didn’t… right? Right.”
A little differency here though,
I’m now, *I have to count it yeey* 1 month and two weeks of NC, and those women who were infiltrating ‘our’ life like poison, in the beginning of NC he would still hang around with their mutual friends and off course, them. Now he has made like it seems a U-turn and all of a sudden, I don’t see 15 parties (u know, facebook) where they are all together, or the events some of them make, where he would ‘have to attend to, just not to offend anybody’ he is now like immediately ‘not attending’. Ha !
We are talking women who persuid him and following that persuing he would even invite one of those -at that time- to a private birthdaydinner of his. All in while I was getting purple with aggrevation. The woman actualy didn’t show up ! Maybe had more decency than him.
And now, now I’m gone it seems *useless* to hang around them. Well, that’s how it looks anyway. Makes me even more infuriated ! Like he only let them hang around, only joined the mutual friends parties and their own, to annoy me.
At this stage however, I’m starting to have a nagging suspicion, he wanted to get rid of me. Oh yes, “he ‘loooved’ me”, but I really can’t see any other reason anymore for hurting my feelings and not listening to my feelings, for him to now stop contact and hanging around them, because the ‘purpose’ is gone. I’m quite sure he didn’t all of a sudden ‘understand’ my hurt about it.
Can this happen ? A man actualy trying to make his woman jealous for either trying to get even more (bad) attention, or getting her to leave. This is how it feels right now.
It’s very frustrating (but also very véry liberating in the same time) that with him gone, his attention for these dubious women has left to. Frustrating, liberating but very confusing.
I’m also guessing he already found somebody else, and this girl might have other ‘issues’ so he’s working on those. 😀 Wild guessing, but I’ve seen them together. So it’s possible.
Sofie, I think sometimes what we perceive to be as “paranoia” is our gut instinct going into overdrive! Since you are NC with the guy and he was pulling the ol’ hot-cold, I’m guessing that there were other things going on that were setting off boundary alarms? They don’t have to be cheating to set those off! One of the best and most important lessons I’ve personally learned on this site is to not be afraid to trust your own judgement and to take your feelings/boundaries seriously. It doesn’t matter if you’ve never made a mistake in a previous relationship or you’ve made 100 of them, that doesn’t mean how you feel isn’t valid. Hope this helps!
This is an EXCELLENT point, Natasha. “I think sometimes what we perceive to be as “paranoia” is our gut instinct going into overdrive!”
I never considered that and always, automatically thought I was at fault because I didn’t trust myself. What’s interesting though is that anywhere else but in my romantic relationships, I was always spot-on with superb instincts and ability to pick up on subtle body language and the things people DON’T say. You’re making me re-examine my former conclusions and “paranoias.”
Thanks!
Glad I could help Charlotte 🙂 I had to reexamine all of that as well! I didn’t trust myself at all and ended up not only having a final go-around with my ex-AC against logic, every instinct I had and common sense, but blaming myself for what ammounted to displays of straight-up assholery. Since I didn’t like myself very much, I couldn’t even trust my own judgement that I didn’t deserve that kind of treatment! Sometimes, when we get our power back, we see things in a whole other light. *Hugs*
Just to clarify, by “mistakes” I mean involvement with cheaters/other totally useless types of men – total bad choice of words, sorry about that Sofie!
Absolutely. Even if they eventually leave their partner, if they’ve cheated on their main partner in order to be with you, you can be sure that they’ll do the same thing to you when a “better” option comes along.
Leopards don’t change their spots.
Many of these thoughts resonate with me, I’ve never cheated but I’ve definitely been the OW (not sexually which I held pridefully to, but emotionally for sure). I’ve also been cheated on which was crushing to me and I swore I would never do it. But I got my karma and lessons learnt the hard way by secretly trying to get guys to leave women for me (2 to be precise). I do believe in karma.. it took me a while to see it but because I hadn’t learnt my lesson, until another one came my way even harder and more painful. You get what you give and because I hadn’t walked away from zsa zsa zu/girlfriend guy at the get go because I was too good for him… I let him take me for a loooong fall back ride. And I never got what I wanted (thank god!).
Another post that hits home.
The ac mm I am involved with fits several of these but especially #16. This is an exact quote from a text…”I truly want you to play a larger role in my life. I truly care about you. I know what I want. I’m just scared of letting you down again. I’m scared that a permanent separation from you know who(his words) will cause heartache to my baby >>>(his 6 yr old daughter) I’m scared of screwing up. I don’t want to hurt people but I end up doing it anyway. I want to be happy. You bring a joy to me that I haven’t had in a long time. I know what I want but I’m scared to make it happen. Do you think less of me now? End quote.
Poor, poor baby. And of course I reassured him I didn’t and I understood and would be there for him either way. So guess I told him I was willing to continue to be the option.
He’s not going to leave. I can promise you. He pretty much told you so. And you’re pretty much telling him he doesn’t have to.
Get out now. It’s hard and it’s gonna hurt, I won’t lie to you but the longer you stay the harder and more painful it will be and if you stay too long, you’ll have nothing left of your self-esteem.
Love yourself. You deserve better than being someone’s option.
Re: his 6 yo daughter:
I don’t know him or the kind of father he is. He may well be using his daughter as an excuse, and depending on how narcissistic he is, that little girl may be no worse off than if he does stay together with her mother. But what he says is factually true. Even if he says it for the wrong reasons. Parents separating causes untold pain to children. Only young children need and deserve unconditional love. Children are wounded when parents break up. One more reason to stay clear – do you really want that on your conscience? Do you really need that man so badly?
Cave Woman,
I think that a child’s awareness of a cheating parent is far more destructive than a divorce. The liklihood that the daughter will end up with a man like her father is high, and the son will most likely resemble his father. Cheating is very destructive for all those involved, most especially the children.
Totally agree Allison. Almost every woman I’ve spoken with that’s found herself with a cheater has a cheating parent. Sometimes it’s the first time they admit it. It’s like trying to right the wrongs of the past while being a moth to a flame.
My Father, who I haven’t talked to in 15 years, cheated on my Mom with my friend in high school that was coming to spend the night at my house a lot. She was 17. We didn’t find this out until several years later. Believe it or not, this same girl just recently tried to friend me on Facebook. She doesn’t know I know. He also cheated with the teenager down the street. He cheated with my Mom’s coworkers. When confronted, he would call her crazy and belittled her to no end. She finally cheated on him near the end. She stayed until I was 19. I learned that this is what relationships look like and really didn’t have a concept of a what a healthy relationship looked like. I have been cheated on numerous times and the fear of it has probably ruined some relationships where it might not of been happening. I’ve gotten the gut feeling, but don’t always trust it because I feel like I am looking for it with a microscope. I drama seek because at the very least, it shows me they care enough to stay and fight with me. Or I test them by trying to push them away and see if they leave, then am devastated when they do. I pick ACs and EUMs and try to be the exception. I seek validation. I date men just like my father. I become a doormat fool just like my Mother did. Trust is the hardest thing for me and the smallest infraction on their part is never forgotten. Funny thing is, I look for cheating in the most likely men, ACs and EUMs then get told, just like my Mom, that I am crazy and Bam, I am right back in my childhood drama. Being aware of this pattern of mine has taken years, shifting my attitude and learning to love in a healthy way and picking good men is the struggle. I get so damn tired. Cheating is destructive to everyone involved, even the children. I am living proof.
Yes, I can vouch for this. My dad cheated on my mom numerous times. Some of which I only recently found out about. It’s hard to say that was the single thing he did that was destructive but it sure played a large part. That may have a part in my own experience of being the cheater.
What he said to you in the text is reminiscent of what I went through with the guy who had a girlfriend that he lived with and she had kids by another man. For months he went around the mulberry bush saying he enjoyed my company and did not want to lose “our connection”. That he’d try harder to see me. Fast forward to today, he wound up marrying his girlfriend. Happily ever after, right? He was never going to leave her for me, no way, no day, no how. And if he did and we had the relationship I thought I wanted with him, in the back of my mind I’d be wondering if he would do it to me.
I can tell you that little girl of his has some inkling something is off because her dad is not completely there. Kids are not stupid. They may not have the words to express what they feel or see but they experience it nonetheless. For years my mom was a doormat with “wipe here” written on her forehead. He is pumping you with empty words.
I’m an apple that did not fall far from the tree. My father cheated on my mother as far back as I have memories which may have been around 6. I agree, kids sense something is out of whack no matter how young they may be. Frankly, that’s what has been the most painful part of being the OW and finally gave me the wake up call I needed. I participated in cheating his kids. They did nothing wrong and did not deserve it. I always wished my father and mother would have just faced the fact that they needed to divorce. It was painfully obvious. Their miserable marriage was my role model. I came by it naturally. I watched my mother, although she was “the wife”, be the option and doormat for my father as he cheated on her with every skirt in town, including one of his students who was only 3 years older than me. She was 18, I was 15. We went to the same high school. Not good role models.
That is what I meant to say, whether he leaves or stays, either way, the other woman is enabling a situation that is hurting a child as long as she is involved with him. But he seems to be using the daughter’s feelings as an excuse to stay, but NOT as a reason to stop cheating! still wants cake and eat it too!
cave
agreed.
I can’t leave as I have a child = I want to keep the child’s mother from getting angry with me, I want to look like the good guy to my kid, I want my my wife to look after me, I want to keep my income and not support an exwife and child I no longer live with, I want my family, friends and colleagues to think I’m a standup person, I want to keep the OW quiet and compliant by making out that I have oh-so-good reasons for maintaining the status quo. I win! You (wife), you (OW) and you (child) lose.
I agree. If he cared so much for his child he would not ‘abuse’ its mother; he wouldn’t be cheating if he actually gave a rat’s arse. They are one big walking excuse! And you are spot on again Grace, it’s like ‘all my whims are met so I win – the rest of you lose.’ Ooops.
On the radio one time I heard a discussion about the ‘role of fathers’, ‘the increasing number of absent fathers’ etc… and I was struck by a comment made on the show by a church minister – it was along the lines of :
“The most important thing a man can do for his child is to love its mother.”
Sounds at first like an over-simplification of what makes a good father – but when you stop to think about it…
fearless
funny you should mention that – my brother gave a talk in church about families. He said he loves God first, then his wife, then his children. Good stuff, especially since he has daughters. What’s the best thing a man can teach his daughter? How a man should treat a woman.
Option:
“So guess I told him I was willing to continue to be the option.”
Yep. And as long as you keep telling him that and being that for him, he is getting all and everything that he needs from you. Your function is simply to be ‘available’.
When you’re OW you are not waiting for him to make up his mind (which would be bad enough) – you are actually waiting for him to *change* his mind. But he doesn’t need to or even want to change his mind. What they wish is that you would stop whining on about it. What he wants is to know that, theoretically, he has an option. That’s you. You are fulfilling your one and only purpose. There is no more.
@ Fearless,
What you wrote is exactly true.
“When you’re OW you are not waiting for him to make up his mind (which would be bad enough) – you are actually waiting for him to *change* his mind. But he doesn’t need to or even want to change his mind. What they wish is that you would stop whining on about it. What he wants is to know that, theoretically, he has an option. That’s you. You are fulfilling your one and only purpose. There is no more.”
Thank you for writing that, it’s helped me gain the perspective I needed to understand exactly what the relationship was truly all about when I was involved with a MM in the recent past. I was just an option and nothing more, never could or would be anything more. He even said it’s not a matter of changing his mind per se. I made the huge mistake of getting involved with a married man, which is out of character for me and I have dealt with the reasons that I lost my integrity and have gotten back to the right path. Thank goodness I finally woke up, took control of my direction and went my own way. You never win in these types of relationships, I already knew that going in but I wanted to be the exception to the rule. Winning would still be loosing with a cheater in the end because their wouldn’t be any trust on either side of the fence. I hope that anyone reading this will take it in and help put them back on the right path for themselves.
@Sophie, you were right to feel discomfort. If your partner is not treating you and your feelings with trust and respect, it is a red flag, particularly when you are pregnant with his child, that’s a difficult time wow. My partner puts my feelings first, before a friend of a friends, because today I know I deserve nothing less (and this is how I treat him,too). You deserve the absolute best too!
Hey all, Blogger-Hogger Junior here (Fearless you crack me up…I’m single too and not waiting for him to call),
Thank you again Natalie for such an honest account of cheating. The definition you used smacked me upside the head (again). As the OW, I had to be deceptive and a fraud to participate in the lie. I always realized, at some level, that I was being deceptive but I never really understood my role until reading your stuff. They can’t cheat if there is no OW. I’m moving from beating myself up to recognizing my complicity and becoming accountable. I was complicit in the lie and not just a victim.
Right up until the very end, he maintained that he was “always honest with me”. I actually bought his twisted tripe until I read your stuff. Of course, the cheat has to lie to the OW. It is hard to pinpoint what has been the worst part of being an OW but realizing that he was lying to me too has been a hard pill to swallow. I bought the line that he was an honest cheat!
I also bought the stereotype that something must be wrong at home. I’m still grappling with overcoming this notion because it was how I justified continuing the deception. Although he didn’t talk much about his wife and I didn’t bring it up (Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell), he made sure that if something did come up, he responded negatively about his wife which reinforced my justification.
The few folks that knew about the affair, always told me it was like he wanted to be caught because we were very public. Now, I realize it would have been a convenient and lazy exit strategy for him because his feet were buried in concrete. He wouldn’t leave his marriage or give up the affair and as long as I was willing to be a layaway option, why would he walk away?
Fearless, I have to agree with you 100%, I have lived to bitterly regret being the OW. At some point though, I want to be accountable and learn from such a rotten experience.
Hey Natalie, did you leave out the Great Dysfunction Sex (GDS) part deliberately? The GDS kept me addicted long past his shelf life.
Signed: Recovering Crack Cheater
“I’m moving from beating myself up to recognizing my complicity and becoming accountable. I was complicit in the lie and not just a victim.”
Brilliantly put. That’s exactly how I felt and the guilt and shame of what I did. It’s also what stopped me from telling his wife because if I held my own from the offset and continued saying NO like I did at his first advances I would never have been an OW.
Whilst I was married and my exH had his affairs, inclusive of one when I was five months pregnant with our first child, I blamed the OW my exH went out and screwed behind my back.
Twisted huh?
Once I got over all the betrayals and the deceit to self and another woman I was able to start building my understanding of what my boundaries are (without any outside influence). I now make sure they are still firmly in place. That means that sometimes I’m very much alone because I won’t accept anything that compromises me, but now I’m enjoying being on my own more than ever!
Every day that passes, I am doing more for me and doing more for the people that truly matter in my life.
Hang in there Runnergirl *hugs*
Thank you Leigh and hugs to you too. So sorry to hear about the ex cheater. That must have been terrible. It is weird how the OW gets blamed but the cheater doesn’t sometimes. Aren’t you glad you didn’t tell his wife? I felt like it in the beginning too.
I’m still stuggling with self blame vs. accountability regarding my role in this whole mess. I sure regret saying “yes” too.
It sounds like you are doing well now. xxo
Hey Runnergirl. I left the sex out as it’s one of the more obvious ones. I wanted to make people think about things that they don’t think about and seeing cheating in a different way. Some men don’t leave. They have it in their mind that their wife/girlfriend has to do something really shitty before they will leave. Problem is they’re often the only one doing anything really shitty. You both serve individual purposes which together tick their boxes – if he chose either of you, he’d be miserable. He also absolves himself of any responsibility setting you each an impossible test of proving yourselves *enough* for him to either stay or leave. You’ll find if you go back and shag him, it won’t give you the same high especially now that you’re wiser.
Hi Natalie,
I see your point about the sex thing. From what I’ve read on your blog and in your books, the sex is GREAT for a lot of us, albeit entirely dysfunctional when we get down to brass tacks. I was inclined to focus on the GREAT sex and ignore the minor detail of how dysfunctional it was. I confused sex with intimacy.
Your insights on cheating are incredible, particularly this response. That is exactly what he has been waiting for. Either his wife or me to do something really shitty. Meanwhile, he is the shithead. But since we both tick off different boxes for him, he is fine. “You both serve individual purposes which together tick their boxes – if he chose either of you, he’d be miserable.” That is it in a nutshell. That is it. He’d be miserable. And, of course, this has always been about HIM. No matter how much misery he causes to his betrayed wife and abandoned kids, and optional, doormat, abandoned me, it is always about HIM. What a revelation. He’d be miserable. We can’t have that!
After reading so many sad, heartbreaking posts about shagging them after the denial cracks, I’m not so hot on having the post-break up dysfunctional sex. If the few phone conversations were any indicator, the za za zu seems to be disappearing. He seemed so “miserable”. But, for once, I’m not running to his rescue.
Lord, this has been difficult. Thank you Natalie and for everyone who has posted. We can do it, right? I don’t know what it’s like to be addicted to cocaine, but it seems like the symptoms could be similar.
Hi runner,
Your post makes me wonder, because you are not the first to mention it, about the distinction between GDS (Great Dysfunctional Sex) and sex that happens in the context of love, trust, respect and care.
It’s a dirty thrill, the thrill of the illicit. Like coke: I think your analogy is a good one. Speed. The zing. The heightened nature of not just something stolen, but something stolen together. I think when one is looking for intimacy in the wrong places, sharing the secret of “secret sex” feels like closeness: who knows you best than the one who shares your secrets?
I struggle with still using this kind of scenario – powerful man is irresistably drawn to me – to get off on my own. I remember my exAC telling me more than once about “a friend” of his that had trouble being “true” to his gfs, and how a counsellor had told him not to fantasize about anyone except his gf. Difficult, I think, to find we are responsible even for our own fantasy life, and making sure it doesn’t distort our reality by f*cking with our very hopes and dreams.
I open it up for pondering that what we call *great* sex, when it’s in a crap context like cheating, isn’t really that great, even if it feels like the biggest fr*cking explosive orgasmic aggressive oh-yeah. Even though it’s powerful, it’s got an icky, f*ck-you edge to it, doesn’t it? Even if the two people involved don’t quite know who they’re saying f*ck-you to as they get off? I mean, great like a crystal meth hit is great isn’t so great.
I am trying to be more active in my fantasy life and trying to imagine what intimacy and sexual satisfaction might feel like with someone who I know well and am sure I’ll see the next day, and the day after, and next year – as opposed to accepting someone else’s version of fantasy sex and just inserting me as the hot barely-legal star/object.
Not directed specifically at you, runner: more like you’ve said something that so many of us can relate to.
Hi Magnolia,
As I mentioned, I can see why Natalie didn’t include the GDS in her article. The GDS would have overshadowed the other aspects of cheating becuase, I guess, based on reading this blog that’s another thingy that isn’t unique. As usual, your comments about a fantasy life made me think. Imagine being intimate with someone you know you’ll see the next day and the day after and throughout the year. Wow, that is truly a great insight and sounds like a wonderful fantasy. Being intimate in the context of an honest, respectful, healthy context? So now I’ll be fantasizing about Great Functional Sex (GFS). Thank you for that image. Already the GDS doesn’t sound so great.
Fearless, your dot analogy struck home too. At work I’m known for “connecting the dots”. A while back when I was in therapy (which apparently didn’t stick), I worked on integration of the severed off bits off myself. I was able to apply the integration at work but didn’t do it at home. His actions in one compartment (at home) were completely disconnected to his actions with me. That is one of the factors that caused me so much anguish while I was involved in the drama. My life was a “bit”.
You are all brilliant.
Natalie, I agree with runner, your comment is genius!
Esp. I love this bit:
“You both serve individual purposes which together tick their boxes – if he chose either of you, he’d be miserable.”
It also sums up the EU problem of chasing intimacy / running from intimacy – he can’t choose one or the other cos either way he’s misery guts.
I often think too that the EU and often the MM tend to compartmentalise their lives so effectively that they never, as you have said, join the dots about their own crappy behaviour – they don’t get the connections – everything is ‘stand alone’. They don’t see the ‘whole is more than the sum of its parts’. They see it all seperately; everything is a seperate issue, a seperate ‘way of being’. Their actions in the one compartment of their lives are wholly unconnected to the other part. They do not have ‘whole’ lives, just bits of a life. And when we are involved with them, that’s what we live like as well – our lives are a lot of ‘bits’ that never come together as one, whole integrated life.
Agree with this whole heartedly. I can say that for me in the thick of being EU I could not connect the dots between a trail of several EUMs. I would just replace one with the other and didn’t realize at all that what I was doing was completely self destructive and an obvious pattern. And now I say.. hey, why don’t “they” see it.. the trail of girls left behind them?? It’s so obvious. But people see it when they see it. Some never do.
Same here-the sex was a influence on keeping me “hooked” in and another part to why I stayed way too long. Luckily that faded away along with my feelings for him because I finally got that there was absolutely no hope for us ever being together as a couple…there never was, I just wanted to think so, I didn’t want to believe that the frog wasn’t going to turn into a prince. He was only ever going to be a frog. The other part that helped to keep me “hooked” in was I wanted to be the one he chose to be with, I wanted him to choose me over her. Missing that fact that he didn’t want either of us solely he wanted both of us for what he could get from us without having to commit to either one of us truly. I am glad he’s outta my life.
wow, this is so timely for me! i am working hard at trying to get unstuck and move forward in my divorce-in-progress from someone who treated me terribly and then polished it off by cheating on me in a most disgusting (and ethically) way.
i am having a really hard time letting go, and seeing his actions and behaviors for what they were, which probably are a combination of anger and resentment towards me, inability to truly love anyone (he’s not such a great dad either), sense of entitlement, and just an urge to get it from somewhere (anywhere apparently) without expectations.
i don’t know how i will ever trust another man ever again, and that makes me sad and very afraid of the future.
he is not the man i thought he was, that’s for certain. thank you, nat, for your insights — i would not be making it through all of this without your blog. truly, from the heart.
Hi Lynette, good to hear from you although I’m sorry to hear what you’re going through. Reading between the lines, this is the type of thing I’m hearing more of – cheating and crossing ‘other’ lines while at it. It’s humiliating and degrading and particularly after long marriages when you’ve stuck through thick and thin, it’s a kick in the teeth. Your soon to be ex has no shame not realising that it directly affects you and your children. Men like him find a way to charm and talk their way around and out of stuff – distance yourself from him as much as you can and don’t look for truth that he’s not going to give anyway. Just protect yourself and don’t look back.
In time you will learn to trust again. Right now it hurts but not everyone is like him. Hugs
I need to FRAME this post and put it on my wall, on the fridge, in my car, in the shower, as a screensaver; and I will read it over and over again until it sinks in. Being cheated on is one of the toughest blows to your self esteem, and these points from Natalie will put you upright again. I would add that even though I was never the OW, if you are, please forgive yourself for falling for the cheater’s BS, I can say as the person IN the relationship, I fell for it too. Much love..
Natalie, I’m surprised that you left out one very important part of the whole Rooney mess: how could any self-resecting woman go out with a man with the worst set of hair plugs anyone has ever seen?
The expression ‘to lie like a bad rug’ has never seemed so appropriate.
All hard to believe while you are in it. And even after-the-fact, it takes some time for these realities to sink in because you find yourself so wrapped up in the fantasy that was created.
My MM was like something out of a movie, what I thought I had always wanted. Saying all the right things, so romantic and sweet. I felt spoiled…when he would come to town.
When I tried to end things on a few different occasions, he reacted differently each time. Once it was mutually agreed, next time it was begging and pleading and the last time it was an initial attempt at a meeting (sex maybe?) and then when I was firm with him, that was all she wrote. Haven’t heard from him since and it’s been 9 months.
Even though I had my own issues and may have gone back and forth between MM and ex AC, second-guessing myself and just down right confused, I was always honest with each of them. I told my stb ex-husband (AC) I was in love with and seeing MM and I no longer would go hang out with him, talk on the phone or via emails other than what was necessary in regards to our son. Then I completely cut off contact with MM when I decided to give it one last shot at working it out with my AC husband…until I caught him cheating. So the problem I had with MM was that he was doing all that behind his wife’s back. That he didn’t just sit down and have a talk with her and tell her how he claimed to really feel.
He told me it would take 3-5 years for him to transition out of his marriage. This was after we had been…together, messing around…for a year and a half! That was NOT cool with me. I didn’t buy this and what I never told him or suggested to him (cuz it had to be his decision and I knew he would make it if her were sincere) was that I completely understood and even respected that he didn’t just want to bail on her. (She had been a stay-at-home mom for many years and it would take her a while to get back into the work force and get financially stable.) BUT THAT DIDN’T MEAN HE HAD TO PLAY HOUSE WITH HER. He could have done the respectable thing, the right thing, and had a talk with her and then gotten a nearby apartment while still taking care of the kids and household finances.
Guess it never occurred to him. But you know what they say…where there’s a will, there’s a way. Which tells me so much.
charlotte
I get what you’re saying but it’s an untenable position to expect the MM to do the decent thing when we’re not doing the decent thing ourselves. If I had lectured the MM on how he should behave, I can imgagine him turning around and saying “you can talk, you’re messing around with a married man!”
And as for being honest, it’s still not right to do the deed, own up to it and then say “at least I’m being honest”.
Seriously, it’s a no – win. There’s no acceptable position that the OW can take.
I’ve done all this nonsense myself by the way so I’m not criticising.
Oh, absolutely Grace. I’m not blaming everything on him (any longer) and I completely get how I was equally to blame and am holding myself accountable. I just didn’t write everything because…well, it would have been way too long.
It’s a process for sure. I went from hating him and blaming him entirely, then to blaming myself entirely, and just recently I’m beginning to see the big picture more clearly. In fact, I almost screwed up again by the same but different shiesty behavior, writing about perspective booty call on my blog. Only I caught myself and realized what was really going on BEFORE I made another mistake.
“And as for being honest, it’s still not right to do the deed, own up to it and then say ‘at least I’m being honest'”.
I’m not sure if you’re referring to me or my exMM, but to respond to both instances, I didn’t expect him to fess up about the affair. I don’t see the point in it and it would have only hurt his wife. But yeah, I did expect him to make our relationship honest and since he wouldn’t, I did. I knew it was wrong and I didn’t want to be the OW. I had extreme guilt for my part in betraying his wife and felt horrible about myself. That’s the only reason I was able to end things because I damn sure didn’t want to at that point, I was in so deep.
And if you’re talking about my actions…I know it’s not exactly something to be proud of considering I went from my stb ex-husband AC to the MM and back. But in handling my affairs (no pun intended), I never cheated or was dishonest with the two men.
I didn’t take your comment as criticism, so no need to worry. We’re all here to learn and help each other and your input is appreciated. Thanks!
That’s the thing, we are expecting honest behavior from someone who is dishonest. It just doesn’t happen. It’s not possible.
I’ll never know if my ex cheated on me or not, and it doesn’t really matter at this point. Like Natalie said in a previous post, unavailable is unavailable is unavailable. But I definitely saw how it as a possibility in our future, if that makes sense, and that’s one of the reasons our relationshp ended. He could never make his mind up about anything-a car, where to live, what to do about his job, and was never completely satisfied with the choices he did make. Even if he was “committed”, he wasn’t putting in any real effort, and I felt like he was waiting for me to pull the plug. I watched him getting bored with me (because he wouldn’t do anything to get to know me better), getting more and more miserable (because he didn’t like anything about his life), and I felt the next step was going to be finding someone else to fill the void he couldn’t take care of himself and waiting for me to catch on because he didn’t have the balls to end it with me with dignity and respect, whether it be two weeks or 12 years from now. Might sound paranoid to an outsider, but my dad cheated, and it went exactly like that. And the more I got to know him, the more I realized how eerily similar their personalities were. He was already using homework as an excuse to not see my for a week at a time. My dad did the same thing with golf before he stepped out on my mom. He stopped respecting me for putting up with it, or complaining about it but sticking around anyway. Very, very passive agressive behavior. I’m sure he would have only continued to escalate it as time went on. Glad I got out when I did.
If the other two girls are “blog hogs” then I guess I’m being a comment hog tonight, lol. I normally don’t comment much but this post has just really lit me on fire.
No, you absolutely don’t sound paranoid. You sound like you’re a smart girl for figuring it all out on your own (and sooner than I did). That’s exactly how it would have went down.
Oh, and if your gut was telling you he was cheating or you suspected it, then he probably was. I’ve never said this before…on my blog or anywhere on this one…but I suspected my MM of cheating on me, the one he was cheating with. There was an incident that set off something in me but that I ignored. I had driven all the way…well, almost 1000…to see him. He put me up in a hotel near his work. We, of course, had sex and spent the entire day together (it was a holiday but he lied to his wife and told her he had to work). The following day he came to my hotel and burst into tears…really bawling…telling me how bad he felt and that he didn’t want to be like his dad. (His dad had multiple affairs and I don’t believe was faithful to any of his partners/wives) My gut was telling me his behavior was exceeding the crime (if that makes sense) and for a second I wondered if I wasn’t the only one but quickly pushed the thought out of my mind. There was one other time I felt this as well but I don’t think it’s necessary to tell about it too. I thought I was just being paranoid.
See the other commenter about the dismissing “paranoia”.
Sorry I was so long-winded and congratulations for getting out when you did.
As someone who has been cheated on I can tell you there is no worse pain. To know that the person you loved with all your heart/soul and body would do that well it was like I was hit in the gut and had the breath knocked out of me.
When he was telling me about her it was like having an out of body experience, I was hovering overhead seeing/hearing what was going on but my mind couldn’t comprehend what he was saying, my mind just couldn’t take it in and process it.
Then came the physical pain; the crying, the uncontrollable sobbing, the headaches and the knots in my stomach. I can’t tell you how many times in vomited and went without sleep for what seemed like forever.
Then I was stupid enough to stick around for awhile being the woman he cheated with on the same woman he cheated with me on. What a sick time that was.
Ladies PLEASE before you knowingly get involved with a married man or someone with a girlfriend think twice. Is that really the kind of man you want in your life, would you want that for your sister or best friend. And don’t forget he WILL do it to you too, you are NOT going to be the exception no matter what he says.
@MaryC, i am so sorry — i know exactly what you went through. in my case, it was my (kind of awful) marriage of many years, with two kids, and i still wanted it to work and work.
i found photographic evidence of him being sexual with another women, and then a number of communications a la Anthony Weiner. he never “confessed” and denied a whole bunch of stuff (oh come on, i had evidence!), but he never argued with me when i asked him to leave.
he has never really said he was sorry either. sorry i saw the photos, yes, but for my own sanity or his benefit, i am not sure, and don’t know if he knows either.
i hope our kids never learn what he did specifically, although a part of me wishes i could tell them. i have been put in the awful spot of having to lie to my children in a big way for their own sake.
i hope you have recovered and are doing better now. i am still working towards healing. best wishes to you.
Lynette….Thanks for your kind words. Yes I have recovered for the most part. Can’t say I’m completly over him but I’m sure a whole lot better. Your kids if they’re old enough probably already know about him. All you can do is set a good example. Stay strong.
MaryC, you’ve travelled a long road and I remember when you were in the throes of the agony. I think the trap of these situations is that it’s like taking spray paint to him and writing “I woz here first” because it will feel like madness to be the OW when you were the original main woman. What I admire about you is that much as your heart hurt, you followed the path of putting what you know is wrong first to help you opt out of a painful situation instead of ignoring it.
Nobody that genuinely loves a person and has any respect for them makes you choose, degrades you by cheating on you *and* lying and that puts you in a back street role of OW.
Love doesn’t have options, degradation or pain.
NML…couldn’t of done it without you. Thanks
If only I came across an article like this 3 years ago when I got involved with my now-ex. He cheated on his g-friend with me (who was pregnant at the time!), left her for me shortly after the baby was born and now a few years later when I was getting fed up with the b.s. he was feeding me and threatened to leave, he disappeared never to be heard from again. I can now say that I wasted 3 years that I can never get back and I have no one to blame but myself and my very poor choices. On top of that, I assisted in ruining his ex’s life and the lives of their 2 children……all b/c I thought we were “Romeo and Juliet”. It makes me sick to my stomach looking back at the bubble I was living in with him. Needless to say, I recently found out, a month after our breakup, he and the ex had become the best of friends again. I guess in the end, I got what I deserve. The only thing that bites is that he gets to go through life unscathed. It seems nothing effects him whatsoever – no guilt, no shame, no hurt feelings. Scary how emotionally disconnected some people can feel from the rest of the world.
My “cheater” was a bit different. I was the one being cheated on. We were in a relationship, he was caught cheating several times. He always won me back. I was the “love of his life”…the others were to fill the lonely times for him. One of them was for 8 months (that I know of now).
I allowed him back. Yet I could never fully trust him. Those women he lied to me about, went out with behind my back, etc…I could never fully forgive him for hurting me, lying to me, abusing my trust. That was many years ago. Our first 3 together. Its now been 5 years together. Yet those relationships (lies, cheating) still haunt me. I think in the back of my mind, he is still doing it (after all, we are not together yet-still). So he must be better at not getting caught-right?
After all, if I am the love of his life, after 5 years, wouldn’t we be together? I think so. I can’t help but doubt him, not believe him when things feel like they are shifting (like the days when other women were involved). My gut always knew when there was someone else, and I would ask him, and he would shift the blame on me (I must be doing something wrong, I must be insecure, I must have some mental hang-up).
I have finally realized that I will NEVER trust him. No matter how much I want to, I can’t. Why should I? He has never given me anything but his word, and his words have never been much of anything. Only words-no actions! We are not youngins, I’m in my mid 40’s, he mid 50’s. I had given him 5 years of my life. In my opinion, 5 years too many. I am done! I am sad, I miss him, I love him (and probably always will), but he has not returned the love, ever. Time to move on (eventually), once the pain wears off. One day, some day I will be okay…..
WhyMe
This may help:
I like their advice – it takes cheating very seriously and doesn’t blame the person who has been cheated on.
Whyme? Some people don’t know what love means. I can assure you that ‘love’ isn’t getting your end away behind someone’s back. If you’re the one he loves the most, I’d hate to see what he’d do if he hated you…
I am dealing with this at present. My ex cheated many years ago so i left him. He then tracked me down years later with the big apology and promises of change. Of course he hadn’t changded and i like the fool let him back in and was hurt badly again. I do have to see him on occasion and he acts like he didn’t do anything wrong. He is still with the woman he cheated on my with but won’t admit it. I try not to have anything to do with him anymore however when i have ignored he sends abusive emails. He wanted out he made that perfectly clear when i found out so why all the nastiness
Hi Louise. You don’t need him to admit what you already know. Your job isn’t to extract a confession as it won’t make you feel any better *anyway*.
He’s operating on a need to know basis and the way liars operate is that if you bait them with what you know they bait you with the truth. He is being in control of what he thinks you know. He’ll be damned if he let’s you be in control of his options. Run.
My ex husband cheated as exit strategy… short affair, just a month before he came clean to me (“I love you very much but I met someone” – I found nothing confusing about the I love you part by the way, the message doesn’t come across mixed when you’re ready for the truth). I was angry with the OW for a few days until I realized she can’t possibly know him or what she’s getting into because a) it’s only a month-long relationship 90% conducted via Skype and b) no woman in her right mind would really want him knowing what I know not via Skype but from living under the same roof… and if she’s not in her right mind, then he won’t want her. I don’t know which it was but they broke up within six months, before our divorce was even finalized, but not before she moved across the continent to try to be with him. I don’t hate her, she got used up as an exit strategy, I’m sure it hurt her too. In my more cynical moments I say she was doing me a favor. “He’s her problem now” is the one true response to being left for another. If you are the OW, you are taking on one royally messed up person.
What’s interesting is that most if not all of these bullet points about cheaters apply to unavailable men in general: you’re “on layaway” (we just read about this one: being optioned); it’s a line on how they manage relationships in general (not well,and deceptively); they don’t accept it’s over when you try to end it; they convince you to wait; “you know where to reach me,” ad nauseam.
Really, they guys have become caricatures and the jokes write themselves.
And the one thing these spoken-for men have in common with all those other assclowns is … we women who allow them to do their tap dancing.
Wow great post and a lot of that seems to be the same stuff for just general assclowns or unavailable people. For instance putting you on layaway so no one else grabs you, number 16 being afraid to leave you altogther through fear of making a mistake, being image conscious , control issues, not taking any responsability and so forth.
“It seems nothing effects him whatsoever – no guilt, no shame, no hurt feelings. Scary how emotionally disconnected some people can feel from the rest of the world.”
You are so right!
Hi there,
I’d just like to say thank you to this site for helping me get over my previous EU. Everything I learnt was so spot on and helped me heal.
I stayed single for a year to sort myself out and then met a lovely new guy. I’ve had all my newly found boundaries in place and have stuck by my gut instincts to make decisions.
However sometimes I find I’m getting stuck with good boundaries, gut instincts and being “too fussy”….and having to work out which is which? Here’s why….I’ve now been living with my new guy for a year. He confessed very early on in our relationship that he’d had 12 affairs behind his ex-wife’s back, they had gotten seriously in debt but he’d had counselling and had learnt his lesson. Fair enough I thought, give him a chance. In the last year, I’ve caught him with an account to an “adult” dating site, he watches lots of p*rn and now I’ve caught him messaging a 20 year old….”which isn’t what it looks like” he said. They were discussing her boobs and him “having a closer look”!! How is that meant to “look”?….ummm like you’re on the cusp of an affair I think!
I think my gut instinct is saying “get out of this quick” but colleagues had said previously I’m fussy, which is why I’m single a lot. I’m 44 and scared that time is passing me by.
Am I being too fussy? Is it normal for men to want to look at p*rn? It’s the adult dating site and this young girl that concern me.
I think I know the answer. I think my boundaries aren’t as fixed as I thought they were. Can leopards change their spots?
Thank you if you can advise. The fact I’m asking probably still means I’ve more healing to do….as my lines are still very wavy.
🙂
Kimberley, deep down you know that this isn’t a fussiness issue by a long stretch. Your colleagues, to be blunt, are talking out of their arses. I have found that the older a woman gets the more people think it’s a legitimate reason to call her fussy and project their own insecurities about how they perceive they would be in your shoes.
That said, if you’re with a man who screwed around behind his wife’s back 12 times and has adult accounts online and is talking to 20 year olds, it’s clear that like many women who visit this site, you’re fussy about who you don’t date, not who you do.
You are looking to be the exception to the rule and it’s time to ask yourself if it’s really that important to you to get a slinky man not to slink around on you.
This man is no catch and it’s incredibly inappropriate for him to be having those conversations with a 20yo.
He’s just not that special and you’re not that desperate.
I agree with NML. The leopard didn’t change his spots.
It’s not the porn that is the problem; it’s the messing around on chat sites and flirting with other women about their bodies.
I would bail.
Kimberley,
You ask if it’s normal for men to want to look at porn. Porn is everywhere these days, and so easily accessible, and the industry makes billions of dollars every year. So that tells me that, yes, it’s “normal”, if you want to define normal by the sheer volume of people looking at it.
Is it healthy for a relationship? I don’t think so, especially in this case, as your guy is also engaged in other external sexual pursuits.
My ex-husband was (and probably still is) a sex addict. He looked at porn, made illicit phone sex calls, visited prostitutes. Because of my own previous experience, a man who looks at porn would be a deal breaker for me.
I guess it can be like smoking. Everyone knows it’s not healthy, but it’s not always a deal breaker in a relationship. It’s really up to you to decide if some things that are considered “normal” and accepted by society are actually OK with you. Don’t let the masses dictate your own internal judgment with any issue, whether it is porn or trying to convince you that you are too fussy.
Well this is a timely post for me. One year ago today, my husband– whom I adored and was totally in love with– was killed in a plane crash. I have been mired in grief over his death for a whole year, and its hard to believe the mess that I have managed to create in the wake of this loss. In the months after his death, I was diagnosed bi-polar, I became quasi–suicidal (I chose to live because I have three kids)… and I somehow fell into a relationship with a married man. This was a friend before my husband’s death who I always knew wanted an affair with me, but I was not interested in that before I lost my soulmate. But when I was feeling so dam depressed, so lonely and missing love so badly, I succumbed to his advances. And he proved to be a very good friend, all of the crappy cheating stuff aside, he has always been there for me. But I am unhappy about this relationship now. I need him, or at least it feels like I do. I am terrified of my black depressions that he has pulled me out of time after time. I’m the biggest baby cuz I am truly afraid of being alone. I am 44 and live in a small town and even though I am attractive, the chances of me finding a partner in this place are next to nothing. My MM makes me feel so small sometimes. It seems he bestows tremendous love and affection on me– SOMETIMES. Only when convenient for him. Other times he is distracted, has a million excuses why he can’t see me, until I call him on it– then he comes back and hooks me again. I feel bad for his wife. He has never said a bad thing about her and I believe, other than me, they have a good marriage. Kids who I care about, though I only know one of them. I know this is wrong, I know he’s basically an ass, for he claims he has absolutely no guilt over it.He has no intention of leaving her, nor would I want that. What do I want?? I want the pain to be over. I am still suffering from losing my beautiful husband, and now I am suffering because of this guy/affair, and there is no way it will end well. God give me strength to get through this painful day/anniversary and to leave this MM someday soon… I read these posts religiously and though they are so hard to swallow, they are like therapy to me, tough love. Thanks to all of you brave women out there.
Widow, I’m so sorry for your loss. What a terrible thing to happen and I think that it would be pretty difficult for most people to cope under those circumstances.
Unfortunately, you are not the first to be swept up by a ‘friend’ after the loss of a loved one. In fact, I’ve heard your story too many times with different characters.
This situation is what comes about when you try to avoid your grief and an opportunistic tit exploits your vulnerability. In your case, particularly with your mental health issues, it’s ended up creating a level of dependency.
What I can say with iron clad certainty is that you are prolonging the inevitable. Also while he has been a distraction and even a balm to your pain, he’s actually adding salt to your wound and creating more things for you to grieve.
The loss of your husband was sudden and shocking. I know that you loved him deeply but he would hate to see how much you are hurting. This isn’t what he would want for you. You need you and your kids need you. You can gradually grieve the loss of your husband and even the loss of what you thought would happen. Right now, you need to focus on helping yourself and gradually rebuilding your life. Being the OW will destroy you. Don’t do this to yourself and stop giving this man so much power. Go to grief counselling and get legitimate help and support from someone who doesn’t have an agenda of getting into your knickers and engaging in mind fuckery. He could have been a friend without screwing you literally and figuratively. He’s not a friend. (((hugs)))
You’re right as always…”He’s just not that special and you’re not that desperate.” Thank you NML.
When I read other posts, the answer seems so clear but when it’s yourself and your own life, it’s so easy to justify behaviour that simply isn’t good enough. Time I took some action.
In response to Widow….can I just say that I’m truly sorry you have lost your husband. It must seems so cruel that he was taken away so quickly from you. My heart goes out to you.
Please don’t ever worry about being alone (from one 44 year old to another!) One thing I did learn from my own counselling (and obviously from this site) is that whilst you are with this MM, you are not making yourself available to a man that truly deserves you. You need to be free in body and mind and find happiness and peace with yourself. When you find that in your own company, you’ll be ready for real love to find you.
I jumped in again too quickly and now the cracks are showing. I suspect, if I’m honest, they were there from the start but my boundaries were not yet strong enough. I hadn’t quite found my happiness and peace from the previous EU before I let this new man in.
But I’m learning all the time…and once again, it’s with much gratitude to have found this site and so many other strong (and getter stronger) ladies out there.
I hope we all find our happiness. 🙂 xx
My EUM/MM of 6 years was a classic example of every description above. I feel so scammed which feels incredibly painful. I am on NC after my MM told me he needed space to clear his head. I realize now he is a fraud who lives in a world of lies/fear. He has tried to keep me in his pocket knowing he has just wasted years of my time. I fell for it. I believed his words, “I never did this before (first affair)….I never lied to you”. He never was truly unhappy to begin with but described a incredibly distant marriage for 6 years. One of our last overnights was classic. It was supposed to be him and I but changed into a evening of anxiety and distance because Wife called several times. Ugh. I am just too good for someone so pathetic and weak. I wish I knew then what I know now. He is and always will be a liar and his wife can have him. Poor girl. Thank NML. You have shown me the light.
I’ve been in both situations. Cheated on by my exH a few times and involved with a MM. Both are degrading. The underlying thing of both is lack of honesty and morals on all sides.
I prayed to God once: “Show me what love is.” He showed me what it isn’t instead and then I saw with startling clarity the love of my family and the love from my friends. They have been my example.
Here’s what I have woken up to (thanks to Nat): Take the EU or the MM. Here are what he sees as his options with you. He doesn’t have two (‘in’ or ‘out’).We gave him 3 options:
1) He can end – finish it – it with you
2)He can be with you properly in bona fide committed relationship
3)He can maintain you as as option
He is not driven by option (1). That will just happen by default if his wife finds out or if he meets someone more interesting or if he just gets bored with you or if you become more trouble than your worth.
We imagine that what drives him is option (2), that option (2) is where he wants to get.
See all his words of love and desire and pissy poetry and all how he doesn’t want to lose you; he cannot give you up; he lives in a loveless tomb with his horrid wife/gf and all how he will do something about his situation – one day… blah.. blah… (yawn)… these words are not the words of a man who is aiming for option (2). When he’s telling you all this stuff about how he he desires you, how he is afraid to lose you for good, you are thinking he means option (2). He doesn’t. He means option (3). He is driven solely and utterly by option (3)
Option (3) is what he wants. That’s what he is about. That is what he wants to keep; that’s what he doesn’t want to give up.
That’s why they keep coming back like a boomerang. Why they send you sweet texts with kisses on them, why they generally try to turn the heat up when they think you may have gone off the burn… not cos they desire to be with you and only you and are frightened to lose that opportunity…. but because they are worried you may have removed option (3) from the list!
If you are sick of being the OW or sick of the barely there relationship with an EU you need to remove option (3) or realise that is what he wants from you; this is what you are and all you will ever be. You only have two options, by the way: yours are
1) end it
2) be an option for him
Fearless,
With the MM: I ended it by voicemail message last October, I haven’t been in touch with him since. I am not his option.
With the exH: I legally separated from him three years ago and finally got my divorce from him last year. I’m not his option either.
With both I got the same old blah blah blah BS and I got to the point of caring more about me.
You’re right They want to keep you as an option. What disgusted me about both my exH and exMM is that they were very critical as a means to place blame and fault with anything other than themselves. Believe me I won’t be degraded again or allow myself to be in that situation. It’s not worth all the hurt it causes to myself anfd potentially others.
Case in point. Last year I dated a guy – red flags going off left right and centre. I ended it with him after five dates.
I won’t ever be scared again of looking after me!
Leigh,
I hope you know that my comment about options was a general comment and not related to you (maybe I pressed the wrong ‘reply’ button). When I use the word ‘you’, I really just mean ‘us’/’anyone’.
I am glad you have taken back control! Sounds like you’ve been through the wringer with these guys,
Despite all my reading of BR since last August I got that I was an option for the EU – that was easy enough to grasp, but I have only just really understood what that means, which is what is prompting my posts on this (and reading Nat’s other ‘option’ article, obviously).
What I now see is that my EU – or likewise the OW’s MM – was not trying to have a proper committed relationship with me – he was trying NOT to! This is what I just really, really get – that he was ACTIVELY TRYING NOT TO; that all his efforts (blowing hot) were to maintain the status quo, to maintain my availability, my option status.
Anyway… I think I’ve banged on enough about this… it was just a(nother) light bulb moment for me… and I so wanted to share it!
Over!
Fearless,
That’s okay not a problem I knew it was a general comment.
Lightbulb moments are a double edged sword! They make you feel sad and elated at the same time because it makes you.us realise what has really happened. It’s not pleasant, but it’s necessary and in the long term a positive thing!
That blowing hot and cold thing and mind f***ery it’s their game card to remain in control of a situation that they know will only benefit them – hence the keeping us as an option.
The only people that can fix that is us by regaining control of it by totally severing ties.
I thought of it this way: If I ate food that had gone “off” I would be poisoned and I would be very sick. I ate the BS meal that the exMM gave me and I became very sick indeed!
To get better after food poisoning I would take meds. The medicine required to get better after a bad relationship experience is loving ourselves. NC is the best therapy for that!
*hugs*
Fearless,
This is a brilliant comment, and spot on!!
i have been in an affair for 20 plus years and i am in denial about the whole thing .. i need help i have know him since i have been 16 and have been with him through his whole marriage dont get me wrong i have had other relationships and i have gotten married but i was never with him when i was married or in a relationship, but when i was not in one of those relationships i always fell back to him. I have been thinking he loves me and i love him but his love is not for real i am now seeing he is selfish I think i need help leaving i am afraid my heart will hurt so and i am afraid as stupit as that sounds it is the truth . i beleive he will never leave and i was thinking it was me the reason he wont leave but now i see he is unavailible to anyone ..
kal,
welcome to the site and hope you will stick around here as you decide to do right by you, get yourself out of this situation that hasn’t gone anywhere for 16 years (!). Get out now and begin to face the feelings of loss and anger and fear … you’ve given a big chunk of your life to this person and you don’t want to lose a day more of it to a relationship that isn’t worthy of you. We will be here!
thank you so much for your kind words and I have given him a huge huge chunk of my life guess i am just scared of the unknow.. i will keep on reading this site to look for help along with the help of my friends also
Cheating (whether you’re the main cheater or the accomplice) – means you can’t mean what you say, it means you’re kicking about, and creating ripples and, ultimately, hurting a lot of people, including yourself. It taints things, and, in my experience, nothing good can come from it. It shows you things the hard way, yes, so you learn them. But love, in the light, hopeful sense, tends not to spring from these choices. I have been cheated on several times, and cheated, and they were both hugely painful experiences that had an ongoing effect. I would never believe a cheater’s intention because I know the one time I cheated it was a matter of me not wanting to take responsibility for my life, and out of a sense of entitlement that was all about the relationship I was in, and very little about the person with whom I transgressed. It’s a grubby business, and I am now staying well out it.
I’m amazed by the cheating stories here. Maybe I am just naive (or too unattractive to receive an offer lol) but I never thought of being with a married woman. Even when couples get divorced I am surprised when it comes out that someone was cheating. Relationships are hard enough without beginning dishonestly.
jd, consider yourself lucky. Perhaps it has nothing to do with your looks but more your inner strength. Maybe you send out the signal, loud and clear, about yourself and your boundaries. Because in hindsight, I see that my lack of self-esteem was like a beacon to all the AC’s I’ve been with. Had one even tell me it was like I had a stamp on my forehead. They can pick you out of a crowd.
And do you honestly think that the majority of us OW had MM listed on our checklist of things to look for in a boyfriend? I was brought up with strong Christian values and even though my religious views have changed over the last several years, that remained as one of my personal values…Absolutely no cheating whatsoever and definitely no MM. Before my MM I would have sworn on my children that I would NEVER do that. For me, I made an exception because he was my childhood sweetheart and in my mind, the ONLY guy to have ever treated me decent in my entire life. When we reconnected, it was with the intention of having my friend back in my life and I could have never guessed it would lead to where it did.
Most of the OW are kind, loving, albeit broken women. We aren’t monsters, homewreckers or whores.
And unfortunately, as I’ve learned, cheating and infidelity is very common instead of a rare, freak occurrence.
3 years ago, a year into my marriage I was diagnosed with cancer. Was told by hubby he didn’t sign up for this … and he left. I am sure he was cheating before , but he needed a reason to leave I guess. So it was just me and my teenage son (that is my entire family). I made it through the abandonment, that’s how it felt. And decided to make the last year of my son’s high school the most memorable. I wanted him to have good memories , in case I did not win the battle. So off I went , traveling as second coach and chaperoned for the rifle team. While we was gone a co worker checked on our pets, checked on our house. As months past by , I started to spend more time with the co worker, we got assigned as partners, started to car pool, started to work out together at the gym. He started to accompany me to hospital appointments … you get the picture. About a year into that we crossed the line. I was nauseated the first time around. But pacified my own conscious quickly with : Who knows if I gonna make it through this (cancer), I justified : I don’t want to put another man in front of my son, since he will graduate and leave for college ,I deserve a little bit of love and attention…. et cetera , you get the picture. I got better, my son graduated and left for basic training and for the very first time “love” came up. Leaving his wife. He was waiting on her to leave to Puerto Rico for good…. he did not want a confrontation with her, “hoped” she just leave. Well , she did not. So he told her about me. And 76543, I can relate to your post. All hell broke loose. She started to stalk me ….I too went to the police, had a lawyer send a cease & desist letter and HE got mad at me !!! I should have confirmed with him first? Why did he tell her? I will never know. I broke it off with him right there and then. He came and got his stuff (fence pole digger , watch, a few shirts … and conveniently left a few items.) I asked him to get the last 2 items, he dragged his feet …. so I mailed it to him. And all the “love” and friendship he felt prior to that is GONE. Reading NMLs post today has helped me so much. I am not going to lie- it still hurts at times.I too have to deal with him at work. Although I am now promoted , basically I could be his boss if I am assigned to his shift. Luckily I am assigned to first shift and I only have to deal with him a…
Jeez Karen, you really have been through it. Your husband and this latest guy are prize tits. He has some brass nuts on him telling *you* off. I’ll be honest with you – he probably didn’t expect you to still be here. Hell, you may not have been expecting yourself to be here. He liked you but it was a fantasy bubble.
But you are and for however long you *are* going to be here, don’t sell yourself short with Liar Liar Pants on Fire Man, even for cancer and the possibility of not being here. Much like the man who tells his woman that she’s the only one he’s ever loved and that he wants to marry her…on her deathbed, he thought it was safe to say and do things with you. You’ve been sucked into the weird dynamic between him and his wife. You’re a fighter and you clearly have strength – you will move beyond this. (((hugs))))
Karen,
I feel for you. My ex-AC bowed out after I was diagnosed, too. He went from daily phone calls, texts, seeing each other a few times a week, to almost nothing. One or two short texts in a two week period, then silence. I would hear through mutual friends that he asked how I was doing (I guess so he could look like a good guy), but he could not be bothered to call me himself. It’s like Nat said, they are more concerned with how their peers perceive them, than with how they treat the woman in their life. He couldn’t even be man enough to tell me he was bowing out, he just faded.
I can so understand the thinking that goes along with a diagnosis. I know I threw caution to the wind and made some impulsive decisions regarding relationships, simply because I had no idea how long I would be around. Unfortunately, as my naive bubble was burst, there are plenty of people out there who will still take advantage, cancer or not. And I realized that it didn’t matter if I only had days to live, I needed to still live my life with the same healthy boundaries I would have if I saw a long future. Because the cancer didn’t make me immune to the hurt that can be experienced by making unwise decisions. I am single, and would love to spend the rest of my days with a loving man. But even if my days are numbered, I still don’t want to settle for crumbs and the heartbreak that comes with it, because I don’t want my final days to be colored by a mountain of hurt from a poor relationship, that I foolishly thought would be better than nothing at all.
🙁 As sad as it is sometimes…….we humans learn through our actions………i was involved too in such a stupid situation……..and all we can do is see clearly afterwards……..we have to go through the pain. ……we have ro forgive others and ourselves……..after these lessons of life we wont be the same but we will be wiser and wont judge others…………..for all ladies who were involved in those stupid games be happy to be out and those who struggle find the strength to get out of it……..life is too short to be in this hurtfull drama…….be with you. ………..As for the woman where the hb died good luck to you i feel for you. HUGS to all ladies here. ……Ty Nat you give me strength although sometimes truth hurts……….
I am currently staying at the home of an attached man and his partner; the three of us spent last night together going for a walk and having dinner. What I remark on is how ‘normal’ his behaviour was in this context. He was not inappropriate with me at all, affectionate with her, as one would expect. It is enough to make me go, wait, is this the same guy that wanted to come over with a bottle of wine at midnight?
The situation with the other guy has escalated somewhat; after being told in writing not to contact me, he has tried to do so more than once over the weekend, and HR is putting him on notice.
My ‘friend’ expressed horror that another man should behave this way. He got all outraged that this should happen “on his campus” and what kind of “culture” would come of allowing such behaviour. I said nothing to that. I think he genuinely believes that he is nothing like the other dude.
To me, he is the more aggregious offender. He’s in a power position with me, and he’s attached, and yet feels fine about repeatedly taking advantage of the contact we’re in to put me in a position of deflecting his unwanted advances. This other poor sod is single, is low on the work totem pole, and I was able to sever ties: but he is the one who is about to get the book thrown at him.
What has been illuminating is noticing how the higher-up guy can move in and out of being totally ‘intimate’ and demonstrative with his partner when it suits, and then be slagging her off when she isn’t around. It must be confusing for her (as it was for me when I was involved with a guy who I suspected of cheating) that sometimes they seem to ‘fall back in love’ for a while, everything seems okay, and they even say things that make it seem like it would be impossible for them to behave unethically. In the moment, in a certain light, he seems like an honest guy – actually, no, he seems *sincere*, which is different.
It’s quite a mindfuck.
I am tempted, just a tiny bit, to tell her how he has behaved toward me. I think I’ve read enough BR to know that I would just be trying to alleviate my own guilt at being involved in this person’s extra-curricular attention.
Mainly I look forward to getting out of these folks’ lives as quickly and cleanly as possible. I remember the awful feeling of being involved with a selfish, emotionally irresponsible man and the feelings of “die, b*tch” I had for any woman he was getting his attention fix from. I’ll be back to the B&B tomorrow.
@Karen
wow……..really am amazed what assclowns are able to do……..all Mr Incredibles…….i am left with my mouth open………hugs to you and best wishes for your health…….Simone
I got once entangled with a MM and I could bite my tail off for having done so against better judgement.
After ending the “relationship” he replaced me immediately after playing the returning school sweetheart and fell hard for her – my replacement being a notorious cheater herself he emphasized how attractive her easy ways were in comparison to me. They had a future after a week that included even plans for a far retirement time, she leaving her home town, ending another affair for him, telling her husband and moving in with him a few month into the relationship into a new found apartment (he couldn’t think of leaving his house) and being accepted by all their children (they both have two adult ones and he always feared his kids would have a breakdown him getting divorced) well, with all the knowledge of this site, I thought them rebounds. I got note that they are still together after three years. I just wonder, the way they build their relationship screams “odd” and “Is this real” or what have I misunderstood after studying this site and knowing about “there is no exception from the rule”.
Why on earth does my MM (his girl-friend) seem to be so unlikely the exception from the rule? Just curious.
Well, as I am not a fly on their wall, I of course don’t know what their deal is really about, if it’s just on paper and with what they put up with for what reasons – right or wrong and that relationship doesn’t necessarily means commitment but can. Perhaps his wife is now the Fallback Girl? – Then I got an orange code flickering when a former class mate told me by chance that he is posting like mad on our former school website (I restraint from going there) and I thought to myself, well, that was exactly his recruiting hunting-ground where he found me out… how is this fairy tale ending: and if they haven’t changed their spots cheats they are even today;)
Be it as it may I’m in peace and will never be found in such a place again.
Like you described, he fell hard for her, maybe she was the EU he wanted to crack down, who knows.
Hmmh, I never thought about it that way NML
I am still here 🙂 I try to keep myself busy and move forward.
Thanks for letting me share my story.
Thanks to everyone responding to my post.
So funny Im reading this today. I met this guy who was so awesome. We had a great conversation over a few weeks through a dating site, started texting and fnally met last week. He was very handsome, just like his picture. Our date was s nice, we were comfortable talking, I was really starting to dig this guy and then he drops a bomb. He says “yeah, Im divorced but I still live with my ex-wife” we just dont want the kids to know, it will devastate them…I thought to myself what a liar and yeah, Im a true blonde. He has texted me driving on his way home, even calls then. When I return the call, i get no answer…hmmm, am i an idiot! NOT. NC from now on! I hate men sometimes…just when you think hes all that…what a AC heturns out to be.
You know, it’s really f*ucked up when you read a post and you get a sick feeling in your stomach, afraid it could be YOUR AC or MM they’re talking about.
I’ve done this several times on this site and have even been tempted to ask the commenters, “What’s his name?”
That right there should be enough reason to leave ALL these douchebags alone.
Lisa,
Curious? Why did you return the call?
I dont know why I called him, I guess I wanted to see if he would answer, which he didn’t … straight to voicemail…theres a shocker!! Now its back to texting me…I have not responded…Im movin on…Im too good for second best. I have settled too many times before, Not going there again.
I guess I just wanted to see if he would answer…shocker, he didnt..straight to vm…Im movin on…Im not settling anymore…been there done that..
I’m embarassed and saddened to admit I was the Cheater who cheated with the Cheater. The only solace I have right now is that my EUMM left me for greener pastures after I started to assert myself (“I hate sharing someone else’s husband!” & “This is degrading and demeaning”were probably the ones that got me the ax) and he realized he was losing control of me. I didn’t know that would begin his cruel, hasty exit onward to victim #Who the Hell Knows! Now he’s gone and my marriage is in a shambles. Don’t know where to go from here, to separate, to try to repair my marriage? What a royal colossal mess! The sad fact is I was prepared to throw away my marriage and family, to “do the right thing,” stop the lies and duplicity, to be with this cowardly user…Thank God I dodged that bullet. It kills me to see pics in the local paper of him prancing around at fundraiser dinners with his fancy friends and poor, clueless wife! Mr. Respectable, thy name is Cheater! I am so very sorry for my involvement in the charade and for the betrayal of my husband.
Fearless,
Thanks for the post about his 3 options. I have been driving myself crazy today, wondering why he still is not in touch and why if he wants to be done with me he won’t just tell me.
But I guess it is because like you said he wants to keep me as an option. So no need to tell me anything.
Ms Option
Hogger-blogger checking in for last time today!
Now that you see you are purely optional to him… you need to focus on what is driving YOU. You are handing all your own power and autonomy over to him. Stop wondering why HE hasn’t been in touch and wonder why YOU want him to be. Stop wondering why he doesn’t just end it if he wants to and start wondering why YOU don’t just end it cos it’s shite. He doesn’t hold the solution to YOUR problem relationship here – YOU do. He is all effed up. He doesn’t know his arse from his elbow. He is irrelevant in your search for control over you and your life! Every time you think of a question you are wondering about him – switch it to you, i.e put “me” or”I” into the question (or the statement) instead of “he” or “him” and you’ll start to get somewhere. For me it was all about realising that I was utterly dependent on the EU to validate my worth and this was the thing I had to deal with. You are worth better than what he’s offering you; whether he thinks so or not! You don’t need his agreement! You have to think so – yourself. That is all.
over and out. Till tomorrow!
Hogger-Blogger, please DO keep hogging! I absolutely love reading your discerning wisdom, and thank you re charcoal thought/*hug*. I didn’t reply as their wasn’t a reply button directly underneath your response, which would have sent mine into a black hole.
Nat, thank you time and again, for another excellent, clear as water, meaningful post. I had the very displeasure of meeting a child/EU/narc (dressed in a man’s outfit) who treated me, nothing more than an option, with my consent of course. My epiphany. The Last of the Boo-EU-cains.
Thank christ the ordeal only lasted about four months before I finally pulled the plug. I still cringe at my letting him getting away with MURDER, sometimes, but thankfully, I’ve gradually managed to forgive myself, and him, but not forget, ever. I fear for the next clown/impertinent child, but then again, no need. I’ll be vanished by the time the next EU/AC/Narc as much as look in my direction.
I will never be an option again, for anyone.
Thanks all for making me snort with laughter again, and think, and cry, and as runnergirl so aptly put it:
‘You are all brilliant’
xx
Is there a limit to how many times one can comment on a single post? Because I’m pretty sure I’ve exceeded it, lol.
I thought I was DONE with my stuff, had reached my final conclusion, had my “breakthrough” and was ready to put it all in the past and never think about MM again but the last couple of posts have me re-examining it once again, which I guess is good because here’s the thing:
There is not one comment on here that I’ve read and not been able to SEE clearly these men for exactly what they are but when it comes to my exHAC and especially my exMM, it’s almost like I refuse to see them in such cut-and-dry terms. It’s like I condemn the behavior instead of the person, allowing myself to still…I don’t know…love them? excuse them? even though recognizing I need to move on and leave them both behind for good.
Can someone please help me with this? WHY am I doing this? Is this in order to validate my choices and if so, why?
I guess I need to re-read Nat’s book since I’m now in a different place and perhaps a little less blinded.
Hey Charlotte,
I think it’s because all the comments we read gives one dimension of the EU/AC in question. It gives a glimpse of a situation, but life is far more complicated than that. When you know someone intimately, you get to know all their facets – the good and the bad. It’s never cut and dried because there are good memories and good characteristics that stop it being cut and dried.
I used to talk to my friends about their ACs and give great advice, but could never follow my own! It’s because i wasn’t attached to their ACs, i didn’t have the in-jokes, the memories, the butterfly iun the tummy feelings.
What helped to change my perspective is thinking that everyone has good points. No one is all bad. Everyone is capable of being nice and charming and funny and clever sometimes. However, what is important is decency and respect. Whenever i found myself getting nostalgic etc, i would remind myself that these guys are not decent or respectful, which means that all their good qualities count for nothing. They are severely lacking. They are like junk food as opposed to a nutritious meal.
Condemning their behaviour IS condemning them. They are responsible for their actions. You can still acknowledge that someone has good qualities, but be NC with them, you don’t have to out and out hate someone, you just have to recognise that they’re no good for you and to remove yourself from the situation. Going back to the junkfood analogy – there is no need to see a juicy, fatty burger on a plate, be tempted by it, but then throw it on the floor and jump up and down on it – just don’t eat it! Walk past and choose something better. I hope this helps and that i haven’t toally misunderstood what you were asking! 🙂
Minky,
Thank you! That does help and duh…makes perfect sense. I don’t share those intimate moments with my friend’s guys or anyone on here. I care less about judging harshly in those instances. Cut and dry.
But with MINE, I have all the sweet nothings (pun intended) he whispered in my ear to remember and, most addictive, the FEELING of being high. Damn, it was good. BUT the lows were the worst thing ever. I’ve never in my life been in so much pain; and I’ve been through some crap in my lifetime.
You sound like me, being the perfect hypocrite, giving great advice and following none of it.
Minky; your analogy is good. Spot on. Reminds me of a friend once saying to me
“I wouldn’t put up with that from my boyfriend”
My answer was, “I wouldn’t put up with that from your boyfriend either”
I think that illustrates the point. But the fact remains I should not have been putting up with it from hers, mine or anyone’s boyfriend! The good points they have are irrelevant in the big picture. If they are using us an option and messing us about all the good points under sun should not act as compensation for that. They are not offering you these ‘good points’ as part of a whole proper relationship. Try getting all these “good points” when it’s YOU that’s in need of them…oh… you can’t…cos he’s not there… oh..he’s at home with his wife… oh, no he’s not, he’s just done a vanishing act… but see when it’s good for him, he’ll show up and show you his “good points” – like a prancing peacock.
fearless
lol at prancing peacock. it’s very accurate. look at meee look at meee look at MEE. now you see me … now you don’t.
Grace – yep. That’s exactly the image I was going for! Lol too.
Holy shit…I’ve been up all night thinking, writing and getting very real with myself and I think I’ve figured it out.
You’ve heard, “like attracts like?” or as Natalie says, if you find yourself in a pattern of being with EUM, it’s because YOU yourself are EU. That was the one thing on here that I didn’t buy. Nuh-uh, not me. I’m clingy and needy and have an anxious style of attachment. I screamed about intimacy, I was an open book in an effort to get close in my relationships.
I don’t want to make this too long because I just noticed about not making this into a forum, which I feel at this point is what I’m doing. (Apologies)
To make a long story short, I refused to see him in a bad light because that would mean I’d have to see myself in that same light. In blogging, I began to notice (more recently) that the things I hated/disliked, angered me about him, were the very same things I did and was angry with myself for. The being a coward, actions not aligning with words, making excuses, not taking action, etc. Those were the same things I was doing in my life.
The outside mirrors the inside and so, if you are with an EUM you should take a very close look at yourself. If you are with an AC/abusive guy who doesn’t love you or treat you with respect, it’s because you don’t love or respect yourself, etc.
And this is what Grace was so nicely trying to call me out on, to call to my attention, and I didn’t “get”. Yes, my MM could have done the “respectable thing, the ‘right’ thing.” But then, so could have I. BEFORE, instead of after the fact. I am no better and I am definitely no victim. I am…WAS a co-conspirator.
(Is THIS my epiphany moment? lol)
Yes, it is, Charlotte. That’s exactly it! We have to look at oursleves. The answer is not with him, except that if we take a good look at him we’ll see that we are in may ways looking in a mirror! We are passive EU, probably, they are active EU. We the chaser. Them the runner. We only make progress when we see what you have descibed, that we focus too much on analysing ‘him’ as if that will resolve the problem when really our problem and our solution lies within ourselves. “The beast is not out there. The beast is us!” (Ever read Lord of the Flies?)
Charlotte
Yes, that’s it. I didn’t want to pursue the point because we get there when we’re ready. I also don’t want to give the impression that we invite cheating into our lives, or abuse. I can accept my part in it without blaming myself. It’s a nice feeling actually, the alternative is denial and helplessness.
Such wise and soothing words, Minky, Fearless, Grace and Charlotte. Thank you. Charlotte, I too had a huge realisation that part of my anger at the AC was that he was, in many ways, me but worse. So he had all my approval-seeking, workaholic/ high-achieving, anxious tendencies, but at higher doses, and with an added element of cruelty. I was angry on some level because he got away with this behaviour at my expense of all people! It took a long time for me to accept that the scales of these things don’t really matter in practice. I am not him – you have to be careful with this thinking, lest you think it means you’re actually cosmically right for each other (lalalala!) – but there was a very common set of human traits going on in both of us and the lines of who brought what to the table were blurry and confusing at times (and ultimately irrelevant). Being with an AC or serious EUP is like a magnifying glass to the less than healthy parts of your personality and relationship habits. Painful and shocking, but worth it.
I am crying right now…I have put sooo many hours into analyzing (ridiculously extreme amounts) ex-EUMM, ex-husbandAC, all the others, me, my past, my parents, etc. Many times focusing on the wrong things and feeling so damn confused and like there was something really wrong with me (mentally or whatever) that I wasn’t ‘getting’ it…or seemingly getting anywhere. It’s so evident in my writing…changing my mind and perspective from one day to the next…writhing in pain and confusion…searching desperately for the “the beast” and fighting with invisible monsters. Looking at and punishing myself with sadistic, condemning eyes when I had no AC or EUM to do it for me so that the masochist in me could be validated and have her inner beliefs confirmed so that her version of reality could remain intact in order to make her feel “normal.”
Sonofabitch, that’s messed up. Reminds me of that song, Hurt So Good. It makes me sick to my stomach and this is just the tip of the iceberg. But it also feels good to think that I may finally be getting myself out of the pain that has been a frequent visitor for me ever since I was a little girl.
I’m hoping this is the end of the twisted thinking (it also doesn’t help when the EUM and AC’s further reach in there and scramble your brains around ), but realistically I know that I will probably struggle with it for a while. Thank you so much, Fearless, Grace, Natalie and all you women courageous enough to post, to even begin to do the hard work of getting real with yourselves. I can’t tell you how many damn self-help books I’ve read over the years and the whole lot of them just can’t compare to what I’ve found here.
(That other site that was mentioned from Wayne and Tamara is really good too…I’ve been reading all that as well.) Time to break out Nat’s book and REALLY get to work now. 😉
My ex husband cheated on me, prior to that we had been having relationship counselling and our counsellor had diagnosed him as being a passive-aggressive. Does passive-aggressive = EU?
Don’t know if passive-aggressive =EU, but cheating certainly does!
Kirsten
my understanding is that passive-aggressive people employ an underhand way of bullying someone, or ‘under-the-counter’ bullying, intimidation and control. I think many EUs use this ‘strategy’ – we fail to realise that is what’s going on because it’s what I hear called ‘crazy-making’ or ‘effing with your head’.
passive – aggressive behavior is often used by people who don’t like confrontation, and want to control a situation without dealing with it head on. It’s also a way for them to “get back at you” for something that they don’t like that you do or did without having to get in a face to face discussion about it. It’s a defense mech. that lots of people use when they don’t want to lose what they do get from you that they need. Cheating falls under passive aggressive behavior. If a person really wanted to leave their marriage, an affair wouldn’t even happen. People who want to stay married and keep getting whatever they get that they want from being married have affairs. It’s selfish and speaks to what kind of character they really have.
I had a horrid phone conversation with someone I dated several years ago who was trying to explain to me why he felt the need to cheat on his partner possibly with me and his excuse was “I do it because it makes me feel alive. Its a piece of fantasy time” and you know when you reflect on that a moment you realise that, someone is willing to have you on hold to be reeled in for a bit of excitment now and then. I put the phone down and thought, I have never heard such a pathetic excuse for treating someone you say you love so badly and to treat the other women like a blow up doll there for convenience. It was a very unattractive conversation. Made me see that cheats look for the easy option. Instead of working on their main relationship, they opt out and use you as an ego boost and distraction and that is ALL you are!
We are ALL worth so much more than that. I sure as hell know I am!
That’s called USING someone else for your own selfish means. A person who thinks like this is really messed up in the head and will never ever be a healthy person for a healthy relationship. Heavy on the narcissitic tendencies and points to sociopathic tendencies also with that obvious lack of empathy for anyone else. I don’t care what story they give you as to why, or if they cry about how they don’t get what they need from their partner, like mine said, his wife didn’t give him the type of affection that he responds to (meaning she doesn’t make him want to be faithful because she doesn’t bring that out in him ie: he didn’t get what he needed from her in that dept. so he figures he deserves it and will go get what he needs from someone else and keep her too because she has a good job and gives him stability, being married to her gives him what he needs in some ways and he’s not going to give that up, so just find a mistress, it’s done all the time). Well, guess what? That’s not ok with me. Talk about rationalizing bad behavior yikes! And yes, he got away with it, she found out but believed all the lies that it was over when it wasn’t. Yes, I participated in that decpetion for awhile but finally woke up. Too bad she hasn’t. I pray she does cause he’s only going to do it again. Maybe she’s alright with that who knows. We women can do some messed up stuff too. Especially to ourselves. So sad.
Charolette,
I think I have exceeded mine as well. I understand what your saying. I do the exact same thing.
Thanks Fearless. Yes that is how I feel. I need him to validate my worth. It doesn’t matter if I get attention from other guys. I sometimes get approached by 20 somethings and I’m 44, that should make an older woman feel good right? But it doesn’t mean a thing to me. If mm is not validating me I feel worthless. Is there anyone that knows why we put so much into getting validation from one particular person?
ms option
You’re drawn to the dynamic of trying to win over someone who rejects you. It may go back to being a child and trying to “win” the affection of parents who were absent, abusive etc. That gets locked into your psyche . If I’m way off base you’re going to have to think through what else it may be. But I can guarantee it’s not because this MM is SO speical and you love him SO much. It’s not that.
By the way, you don’t get validation from men. That’s not what relationships are for. Until you get that, it’s best to be single.
That was exactly what motivated me. Thank goodness i figured that out because it was another thing that helped me get the hell away from him.
Ms. Option – I am 44 too! Day 8 of NC (had to sit on my hands yesterday) I am feeling really good today and I am sooo happy that I did sit on my hands. I am chuckling a bit because my MM used to send me the most pathetic sicky sweet texts also – really quite similiar to the ones you mentioned. Stay strong and let no one humiliate you again by making you an option – we are way too important for that!
@Blueberry Girl
you woke up……….same story like mine………i would have sworn never to get into sthg. like that.
It felt like a dream i guess.As you say ” doing the right thing” had never been the right thing.
My MM treated me often badly and made me feel so little. His behaviour, although it was so weird, made me addicted to him in a way.
Now we sit here and think how we could ever let this happen and how we can go on with our marriages. We were blinded by illusions and waking up hurts.
I think its important to look att our marriages with a clear had and understand what WE can do to make it work better and to be emotionally available to our spouses again. We have to forgive ourselves Blueberry Girl.
I know you feel sad about yourself same as me.
But what i really know is that sthg.like that would never happen again to me.
As one reader said before those OW are no whore no homewreckers etc………this is life and sonetimes we learn the hard way.
My MM was there for when i went through a bad time in my life and so i was attached emotionally and to cut the bonds isnt easy but eg this blog helped me too.
I am glad i was “only” involved online with him but it hurt the same.
Good luck to you to go the right way on the road of reality and not on the one way to fantasy land……..be patient with yourself.
What I find so hard to grasp, and maybe you can help me with this, Simone71, is how a man can choose to stay with a wife he said he “hated” and who “hated” him? And spoke about with such contempt and disrespect? I was offering him love and sex and caring and admiration -all the positive things he said he was missing in his life. So, why would he choose to reject that from me and stay with someone who was rejecting him? Was it all lies and fabrication?I can’t stop grappling with the sting of it…and it’s keeping me stuck…and removing the focus from where it should be: me and my husband.
Blueberry girl, life isn’t as simple as “Man says he hates wife and that wife hates him” hence ipso facto “Other Woman comes along and says ‘Ooh, I’ll give you love'” and then you both ride off into the sunset.
Have you ever had a man being interested in you and instead of being excited and reciprocating, you’re thinking about an unavailable or assclown guy that you’re eager to be validated by? Most people on this site have persisted with staying and chasing people that have rejected them – you’re doing the same thing.
I was never in a ‘relationship’ with the xAC to say that he ‘cheated’ but what I know for sure is that he was consistently going on dates and sleeping with a fellow classmate of mine – who he was also not in a ‘relationship’ with – when he started going out on dates with me. Back then, he didn’t mention anything about seeing the other girl. He didn’t even look nervous when we had two classes together when all three of us were sitting at the same table. The overlaps period where he went on dates with me while going on dates and sleeping with her lasted a month. I only found out 9 months later in January when she and I bumped into each other and chatted. What a revealing conversation that turned out to be!
I know, I’ve said this story here before, but it just baffles my mind. When I look back, I see clearly the honest look on his face. He portrayed himself as such a nice, caring man. When he was with you, you were his world. There was no indication of another woman in the picture.
Who knows how many women he was dating all at the same time simply because there was no official ‘relationship’ title attached to it. Who knows how many other women thought they were the only one he was seeing at the time? It makes my stomach turn. These people are absolutely disgusting.
I have a question.
If you asked me if I had ever cheated I would say ‘no’ and my reason for saying no is because no married people were involved. To me marriage is the ultimate commitment one can make.
I guess my question is, is there a scale of cheating or is cheating cheating no matter what?
For example I dated a guy who was living with someone (i didn’t know)
and we didn’t have sex is his cheating considered as bad as someone who is married and does have sex outside the relationship?
I was cheated on and I stamped and howled with pain but one thing he said it isn’t as though we are married. Which is true we weren’t nor heading that way. So did he commit a less of a crime than if we had been married?
I also set it up (albeit with twisted sick logic to this) that I would cheat with ex eum who I knew to have a girlfriend because I wanted to get back at her because she was the one to cheat with him when I was with him. But I justified this because there was no marriage involved. Am I equally as guilty?
Tulipa, cheating is cheating. It doesn’t matter how shite the relationship and whether you’re headed for marriage – if you’re supposed to be in a relationship and exclusive, cheating is cheating. Don’t think like a Cheater or special breed of OW that thinks “everyone who isn’t married is single” – incredibly disrespectful.
tulipa
It doesn’t matter because it’s like sorting through a pile of rubbish to see what’s better or worse. It’s all still rubbish.
I cheated on the abusive ex who pushed me down the stairs, punched me in the face, strangled me and held a knife to my throat. Now, I could argue (and I think it would stand up in court) that his behaviour was worse than mine but what I should have done is not got involved with him in the first place. The AC signs were there from the very beginning. Once you start on the slippery slope of ignoring your instincts and excusing poor behaviour (your own or someone else’s) it can never end well. It’s a snowball of crap that collects more crap until someone gets crushed by it.
I’m sure the abuser trotted out his woe is me, she cheated on me story. I don’t care what he thinks any more but for a long time it grated on me that I lost the moral ground. And the guy I cheated with ended up hurting me more than the abuser. Why? Because he was a cheater. Ha, karma.
I’m not saying anyone deserves to be cheated on. There are better ways to deal with relationship problems, even if it means divorce. We live and learn and the no.1 thing I’ve got from BR is that I have the choice to walk away. And it’s a fine, honourable choice. I don’t need to “fix” things my introducing other parties – whether they be married, I’m married, he’s just living with someone, we’re just flirting, we’re not actually having sex, we’re just friends etc. All of that is like being a pinball bouncing from one crap situation to another until you fall out the bottom and decide enough is enough. Seriously, if any of you are caught up in these messy situations, get out as soon as you can. My experience is that it just gets steadily worse, sometimes to the point of being life-threatening.
That said, there are rare incidences where relationships “overlap” and it can still work out (though not so much for the party being left). But I think you’ll know when that applies. It will be quick (I’m talking weeks/months, not years). He won’t actually WANT to have two women on the go. He would just find it too uncomfortable, horrid and just “not him”.
Thank you I see now you are both right cheating is cheating and no matter what the status of your relationship if this is happening it is all crap and you need to leave and get out.
The first scenario I should have known better anyway and this guy still pops up now and then 11 years on looking for the ego stroke.
The second scenario should have been a wake up call for me to call it quits and move on.
The third scenario just showed how much I disliked and disrepected myself and a total lack of respect for him and her and I should have just left them to it and moved on.
“He won’t actually WANT to have two women on the go. He would just find it too uncomfortable, horrid and just “not him”.
EXACTLY!!! So true. He won’t continue doing whatever it takes to keep the wife and the OW because it’s not what he really wants to do. That’s the difference between a cheater and someone who truly wants out of a relationship. A person who really wants out of a relationship won’t have an affair in the first place. And if they tell you otherwise they are lying not only to you but themselves.
Natalie, this may be off topic but I was wondering what role codependency may play in staying with someone who cheated on you or otherwise treats you badly. Do you have any posts about codependency? If not, what are your thoughts on it? Is it just another form of insecurity?
I wanted to ask, you said cheating is cheating even if the relationship is shite.
I found out years after it happened. He didnt have an affair but slept with prostitutes on a few occasions.
I was in the lead up (and all of the relationship) very jealous , possessive and eventually very paranoid.
this was the catalyst for the end of our relationship.
so i have spent 8 months analyzing everything in the relationship.
how my idea of love is really warper and how selfish i am.
I have been all those things that are so unhealthy and dependant and feel i was dishonest with him and myself.
I thought i loved this person yet acted like a monster. couldnt be with him or without him.
we have a child.
its complicated. i have so much guilt and shame and regret.
so i think when you say it doesnt matter why they do it. I think i can understand why someone would do something like being dishonest.
I feel he felt like his needs where unmet.
and seriously. I deserved it. and all this suffering is at my own hand.
I would like to finish with saying for all the people who have been f#$ed over by people like me with all these unhealthy ideals and behaviors that i truly deeply see how I have damaged and destroyed my life and others.
i dont think a day has gone by that i dont feel self loathing.
anna
im going to keep the details vague to protect the innocent but i do know someone whose other half had to be treated for mental illness. He stuck with her throughout and now she’s fine. He did not visit prostitutes or hook up with other women. As Nat says in her post – yes, cheating can be a way to escape problems in a relationshp but THERE ARE BETTER WAYS. there is such a thing as divorce – he could have left you without sticking it to you with cheating as well. and i speak as someone who has cheated myself. I just wouldn’t do it again. I trust that these days, even if I was getting abused (God forbid) I’d be able to walk away rather than throw my lot in with the next clown that comes along.
anna,
It sounds like you are taking a really close look at yourself and this past relationship, and you are owning your own behavior. That takes guts, and it’s never easy. But don’t make the mistake of owning his behavior, too.
We all have choices in how we respond to situations, and so did he. He could have chosen from MANY different behaviors, but he chose to be with prostitutes. His CHOICE says more about him than it does about you.
I think we all go through this analysing stuff. Some of us worry that maybe we were too nice, too giving, too accomodating, not enough of a bitch, and so he lost respect and cheated on us.
You could be at either end of the spectrum, behavior-wise, and still get cheated on.
Hi Anna,
Yes cheating is cheating, even if the relationship is shite. There is never an excuse. If the relationship is bad – you LEAVE. There is no need to go and be a dishonest, selfish person in retaliation.
Even if you were a monster, you did not deserve to be cheated on. You may have deserved him leaving the relationship, but there is no excuse for him staying there and going and sleeping with prositutes. You weren’t keeping him in the relationship at gunpoint! You are not responsible for his actions and decisions, you are only responsible for your own.
You sound like you are making the effort to become a healthier person and while looking at past mistakes teaches us valuable lessons, degrading and blaming ourselves does not. Be kind to yourself. You cannot change the past, you can only decide to go forward and be a better functioning human being. That’s what we’re all stiving to achieve!
I came home one night to find my husband and daughter ouside grilling – and thought oh how nice and considerate!! I went inside to email a friend to find my husbands private email account which I didn’t pay attention to at all up and logged in. I noticed all of the erotica messages and responses to a Craigs list add in which a couple was looking for another man to fool around with. There was a tons of responses in the in box and a ton of sent items in the out box. I printed out and forwarded as many as I could to my work email address and then when my husband came in I contronted him. I tried to be a nice as possible because my daughter was there. My husband told me to delete the account as it must be a scam….of some sort. We deleted it then I went on Craigslist and printed out the add. The following morning the craigslist add was deleted. He has never to my knowledge participated in this type of thing nor ever cheated on me but it sure does leave a terrible feeling in the gut of your stomach. We talked about it when we were alone and he cried saying he would never hurt me etc…and its true he has never been anything but solid these past 19 years of marriage but its out there and the horrible seed of doubt has been placed in my mind. I want to believe him but like I told him its stuff you just can’t ignore especially the sent stuff (I checked with a computer guru and they said if someone had hacked out computer you wouldn’t see sent stuff in the outbox). 🙁
Bewildered, I hate to be the one to break it to you, but your husband is lying to you and I think you know this. Even the most solid appearing individuals have secret sexual activities and that is exactly how your husband is trying to keep things – on the down low. The moment it all becomes ‘out there’ is the moment the fantasy isn’t so fun. I can assure you – you haven’t been hacked into. That’s the standard line of numpties that have been caught out.
This is a cat and mouse game – he’s only going to admit to as much as you reveal. He’ll also lie as much as possible.
If you only reveal some of your hand, it’s like “I’m giving you the opportunity to tell me the truth”.
This is not how this works because you’re both bartering with information.
When you find out that someone has been lying, instead of dripfeeding what you know and them dripfeeding the truth, just be upfront. It’ll save him the bother of telling what amounts to quite pathetic lies. Hacked my arse. He asked you to delete the account because it’s EVIDENCE. Think about this logically:
What scammer do you know that hacks you and gives you login in details so that you can delete the account? What hacker do you know miraculously opens up an inbox full of erotica messages on your computer?
I don’t doubt he’s been solid over the 19 years but that’s got nothing to do with what you’re talking about here – he is lying to you. Seed of doubt? More like coconut of doubt.
I’m sorry that you’re experiencing this and I hope that you get to the bottom of the truth, not least because if he’s up to three ways etc that he is exposing you to risks you have no business being a part of.
So, after reading everyone’s post and reading through NML ‘s blogs, I take it there is something really, really wrong with me.
I married twice, first one cheated while I was pregnant with our son with another MAN. There was no looking back. I left and divorced him.
Husband cheated and left me when I was diagnosed with cancer. In between I had a few relationships. And now this disaster.
So where do I start working on myself? Which question must I ask myself to get to the core of this / myself. I am hurting like crazy.
There’s nothing ‘wrong’ with you – their problems are their problems. You didn’t make them do what they did. You could be The Most Perfect Person on Earth but if you gravitate to certain types of relationships or people, you will get hurt, so there may be qualities, characteristics or behaviours in your exes that may be catering to beliefs that you had. Let’s take the recent ex – you probably wouldn’t have been involved with him under ordinary circumstances, not least because you’ve been cheated on before, but you rationalised that you may not be around, you threw caution to the wind and you overrode any concerns you have. Of course you’re hurt – you’ve *been* hurt. It’s a natural reaction. Grieve the losses and accept who and what they are.
Here is some reading – there’s lots of posts on the subject so just go through the archives. Don’t give yourself a hard time. You’re human – you love, you want to be loved, and sometimes you make mistakes. You’re a fighter ((hugs))
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/downloads/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/100-tips-thoughts-for-better-self-esteem-because-if-you-dont-like-love-you-youll-choose-people-that-reflect-this/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/walking-through-your-relationship-and-observing-acknowledging-the-signs-you-missed-first-time-round/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/whats-your-hook-understanding-what-will-stop-you-from-letting-go-of-a-relationship-or-draw-you-to-it/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/a-tale-of-two-commitment-resistant-birds-are-you-hiding-your-commitment-fears-behind-someone-elses-more-obvious-commitment-issues/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/12-core-boundaries-to-live-by-in-life-dating-relationships/
Hey ladies!
It’s interesting that Nat wrote an article about cheating right when i was watching this show on the telly about cheaters. She really is a mind reader:)
This well known doctor here, in south-eastern Europe, and probably in other parts od Europe too, dr. Zoran Milivojevic was talking about cheaters. He said, that there are two kinds of cheaters: “systematical cheaters” and “accidental cheaters”.
The first ones are either infantile people, who want to have a commited relationship, but are emotionally immature and are looking for other ways to validate themselves.
The other kind of cheaters are people who differenciate between sex and emotions. Sex doesn’t mean anything to them emotionally so they don’t think that they are cheating if the relationship is purely sexual.
I would really like to know, what Nat thinks about that, about cheaters, who differenciate sex from emotions. Can they love their partner, be emotionally avaliable and have sex with other people at the same time?
hugs to all the ladies here
ana
ana,
I know what I think: Who cares if they love, don’t love, love but aren’t in love with, separate love, are emotionally in love, or anything else in their heads? If they cheat, they are cheaters. No need to analyze. No need to cooperate.
As Nat would say: Flush!
Ana, I have a colleague (MM) who openly tell everyone that he has an open marriage. He does so because he hits on and hooks up with women while at work functions and out of town events. Its quite shocking how nondiscreet he is about it but has explained to everyone that he’s convinced his wife that it is purely sexual and means nothing and she’s ok with it. Now I can’t speak for the wife but I’m sure he’s not running home nor calling her with admissions to all of his exploits, so I don’t buy any of that nonsense and have told him so.
Regardless, I can tell you that this type of guy still has quite the dysfunctional sense of intimacy and commitment. He has the behaviour of a giant manchild and a big alcohol problem to boot. I would say any cheater, no matter the form, inherently is not emotionally available. Some just justify it differently than others. This particular guy has got his story all worked out and with zero consequences will definitley never change. Oh, and not long ago mentioned to me that he and one of his flings have developed feelings for each other. So all bets are off when it comes to any cheater… they would be the worst bet on the planet as a mate.
ana
if he/she (but probably he) is able to separate love and sex then sit down and tell your spouse about your affair and how it means nothing. I’m sure they’ll understand completely once it’s explained to them. Hey, they might even go off and have affairs of their own. Then everyone’s happy!
The worst piece of evidence was in one of the responses:
hopefully we can make this work the weather tomorrow is supposed to be bad and we may need to go to Sarah’s mother’s house. If not tomorrow maybe this weekend or at the latest early next week. We really want this…You can call (my husbands cell phone number was inserted here). Signed…
@bewildered, omg, i’ve been there, truly. messages sent from an email address my husband sent up for just that purpose, saying his name and giving his (work — idiot) cell phone number.
he is lying, lying, lying. ask yourself whether this is the kind of man you would want for your daughter. you need to be strong for your daughter.
i am glad you forwarded stuff to yourself. don’t make any rash decisions, but confide in someone that you can and talk this through. the shock is astounding.
bug hugs, i have been there, and it hurts like hell.
Bewildered.
Sounds like he is pulling an ‘Anthony Weiner’ on you.
This man was clearly seeking out a sexual relationship with another couple, and God knows who else.
As Lynette said, “would you want this kind of man for your daughter?” As I would bet this is not the first time if he is seeking a couple. Please get your self tested.
Allison is right — get yourself tested. One of the first things I did — the full panel.
I am so sorry — this is so painful. It is amazingly disorienting, because it is hard to imagine — you are now trying to see things in a way you never saw them before.
I don’t usually self-promote, but maybe my own raw feelings might help? {link edited as the original posted wasn’t working – nat}
you are among friends. hang in there. stay strong. think of your daughter. xoxoxo
bewildered
this is awful. you’re going to have to talk to your husband and see what he says. trouble is, you can’t really believe anything he does say. this is beyond me but what I do know is that denial/avoiding confrontation solves nothing and can make you sick. take care of yourself and your daughter. i hope you have close friends and family you can turn to.
Bewildered, I’m so sorry this happened to you. I’ve never been married, so this isn’t something I have any meaningful advice on, but I wanted to send you and your daughter lots of support and love!! *Big Hugs*
I wasn’t born yesterday and I am sorry but hackers can’t send email and have it appear in the sent box nor insert a valid phone number into a sent email. My daughter has an away softball tournament this weekend and we are each taking a day to go…I am going to request his cell phone (the only one with GPS) for my day 🙂 Sick to leave him home alone all day but what other choice do I have. It makes me sick to think that I can’t trust him anymore but I don’t. Now I am wondering who the third party is in this (Sarah)? What did you do and who did you talk to about this? I was such an idot to let him delete the account. Not quite sure how to proceed from here though…….
Can’t you have some get into your computer and review its history? Then you can find out how extensive this problem is. I would also get a history of phone records and texts.
Jesus, if he was doing this at home, I would think this has been going on for a while.
Bewildered,
I would have someone get into the history of the computer, and also look into the phone and text records.
If this guy was ballsy enough to do this at home and leave it on the computer, I would assume he has been doing it for sometime. His actions say a great deal about a path of deceit.
I think you can look up the history. You can also look at Adobe Flash — it takes images of things done on the computer and stores it for easier loading later. Even if the account was “deleted”, was it deleted from an email program like Outlook, or from the direct server itself?
Sometimes servers keep the account re-activatable for a while, just in case the deletion was a mistake…
And so the plot thickens…..I get access to our phone account and find months and months of phone calls to a certain number and I call the number and guess what her name is Sarah!!!! He says its only a friend that has a lot of problems who confides in him all of time. Just about ready to puke!
oh, bewildered! i wish i knew what to say. my thoughts are with you — i hope he tells you the truth.
for me it has been almost a year since my discovery, and there are still days i feel like i am going to throw up. the photo evidence i had was undeniable though, so there was no way he could lie, none at all.
stay strong, hang in there.
Bewildered,
I’d like to send you some cyberspace strength. Your situation is heartbreaking. I wish I had the words to comfort you and your daughter. I could see them outside at the grill and then your grief of discovering his secret life. I’m so sorry.
A giant squeezy hug….
@blueberry
excuse if my english is not the best cause i am german …..
well my story is different in a way…….this MM didnt get sex …..we just knew each other online BUT fact is i felt incredily attached to him
my hb of 16 years stopped to communicate with me. He never was a big talker but i got less and less.I was always the one trying to talk and to sneak out with him and if it only was for a coffee. I wanted us to do things together like making a dancing course or visiting a museum etc.
I tried so hard to make him see we NEED time for each other and we NEED to talk otherwise we lose each other.But my hb sat in fron of the TV after work and that was it. I went swimming with my kids i went binking with them etc……
so often i tried to wake him up…..i said please if you dont talk to me i feel like a flower without water dying in th sun.
i loved my hb deeply ….oh yes …..and i love my beautiful three boys……
all my strength to stay in my marriage without laughter and talking i got through them……..after a certain time with a lot of sadness in my heart i bought a pc and wanted to play games online
NEVER in my life was i looking for something or someone.
That was the point where this other man came into the picture….bit chatting while playing and so it started. This man fulfilled sthg i was longing for so badly.
Laughing…..talking……bout deep things and so on.
He got me emotionally…..and this guy knew it.
I cant justify my behaviour but i knew how it developped.
i used ti judge men amd women that were cheating but now i know i cant judge people. Life is strange sometimes.
I am having my values but what can i say……this man filled the hole i felt inside.
You know Blueberry……..dont you think its poor from your MM to tell you his hates his wife? Do you really think you could ever think he would not talk this way a bout you…..without respect?
For my part i never spoke bad about my hb.How could I? I love him…..he is a great person and the father of my kids.How could i possibly hate him and how could i possibly tell sthg. like that to another man?
You asked me for advice? Well……let go …..let go of this fantasy…..he is lying ……….you are not available ….you STILL are in your marriage.
Whats on you to decide is …..will you stay with your hb and be the wife he deserves or will you go…
sorry was too long…….You asked me for advice? Well……let go …..let go of this fantasy…..he is lying ……….you are not available ….you STILL are in your marriage.
Whats on you to decide is …..will you stay with your hb and be the wife he deserves or will you go EVEN if there is no other man waiting for you.
I for my part learned very very well. I know now i CANT be available emotionally also we may think that.
Maybe this other man was a big sign to make big decisions. Stay and try and give a chance to your hb and yourself or leave and find your inner peace and freedom alone.
these days i open my heart for my hb. I want to let him deep inside of my heart to find out where the love has gone…….and if i am able to rebuild it.
As i said no man ever treated me the way my hb did. with respect and love. All missed was US. US ……me and him…….
Blueberry….this man doesnt hate his wife…..and if he does he still has feelings for her althoug the are covered ……..let go of this person……
you asked why he doesnt leave her………but you are with your hb still too…….
if there is still love between you and your hb…..give you two a try and forgive yourselfbout the affair……if there is no love at allthen you should make a clear end with your marriage…….
wishing you the best
Simone
@ Karen
hey there is nothing wrong with you…..NEVER believe this although you are hurt so badly
i read a book recently to find out too why we always tend to get into the same kind of relations…..if its with a freind , a partner or even your boss….. i am almost 40 and i have read a lot in my life but about those coherences between eg my childhood and my mom and my father that i dont know and never wanted me and my realtions nowadays…..i was very very astonished…..the book i was reading lately is called The Script Of Your Life…….
But you know Karen ….the best thing is that its on us to change this script.
If we SEE our input to such relations then we can build the ability to behave and be treated differently
🙂 gl Karen
EmLAW,
Wondering how you are making it today. I have just been sad today. Almost gave in and sent a text and my friend called right when I was picking up the phone. She has been trying to get me to forget this AC for a long time. So she talked me out of it. Sooo glad she called and reminded me that I didn’t want to throw away my self respect on someone that is not giving me the time of day.
Hope you have held out.
Mr. Option – Happy to report I am hanging tough..day nine of No Contact! I had a really good day yesterday and then a sad night but I guess its just part of the grieving process because I remain dead set against being with anyone who is going to treat me like an option.
How are you doing? Sooo glad your friends call saved you! Imagine if you had texted and you would be back on that damn rollercoaster of pain again!! Not sure about you but I have tried to tell my MM how I needed to be treated so many times it was disgusting….he is married, not leaving his wife (dispite what he says), future faking and just not capable of treating me with respect and value. Maybe that is why he is in an unhappy marriage – maybe its him not her!! All I know is it is not for me to worry about anymore!
Today I happen to have a very pertinent anecdote on this subject. Years ago, I was asked out to dinner by a man who worked for the company that owned the building that I was working in. When we were perusing the menus, for some reason my spidey senses went into overdrive and I looked up and said, “Are you married?” I have no idea why it occurred to me, but it turned out he was “separated” with two very young children. Nice. Amazing how he found the time to attempt to romance a woman 10 years his junior. Anyway, I told him that this was not a situation that I wanted anything to do with and left him at the restaurant. I would get random texts from him once a year, which were promptly deleted and, once I discovered such a fantastic service existed, his number was promptly blocked. Today, I received a text from a strange number asking how I was. I assumed it was an old friend from college, etc. etc. It was in fact him. Texting a woman that left him at a restaurant, like, four years ago. He said that he “really liked me” and his divorce was “in the works” and would I like to have dinner? Ahhhh, another number for my block list. The reason I’m sharing this is to point out…..THESE. GUYS. ARE. LOSERS.
Love your story Natasha and I think you have demonstrated very well that right from the get-go it is important to be discerning about who we let into our lives. If someone is married or separated do not date them or get involved in any way with them. Unfinished business never leads to a happy ending. You are a great example of a woman with healthy boundaries. Go girl 🙂
Awwww thanks Laine 🙂 The irony of it is that I’ve been in puh-lenty of dodgy, boundary-busting relationships, but the married dude thing I just could never do. This is not to judge anyone who has, because Lord knows I’ve put up with lots of other crap! I think this story also illustrates that no one should be waiting around for these guys – I met this treasure four years ago and his divorce was supposedly in motion then! Four years later…it’s “in the works”. Mmmhmm. It also shows that when they are “free” are they going for the Fallback Girl that stuck with them? (I don’t know if he had one, but I’m guessing there were other women partaking in his mess during the last few years!) No. This one was trying to get back with a woman that told him to screw! These guys are lose/lose (and lose) situations.
I’m not really sure what to say about this. At one point, I really did have a problem with cheating. But now, I find it hard to have a problem–I don’t like it, I now what it involves, but isn’t this what most men are eventually going to do anyway? That’s what I keep hearing and seeing and experiencing. I mean, I’m the ow or sideline and I just accept it now. It’s whatever. Nat, what do you think about open relationships or marriages? Are they the same as cheating? Or are they better than cheating? Should women just agree to open relationships since men seem to always want more than one woman?
19 Years wiser, not all men cheat just as not all women do. Some do. Cheating involves lying, which means that the person doing the cheating has changed the previously agreed mutual arrangement of exclusivity without informing their partner and thereby preventing their partner from having a choice. This is dishonest. They are changing the agenda and not informing their partner that they are doing so. This means their relationship is now based on a lie.
This is very different from the open relationship, where a couple decide together what their relationship will look like. Both have to be in agreeance and this relationship is one based on honesty.
If you don’t want an open relationship, then of course you shouldn’t agree to it. You are the one not being honest here. Look for a guy that wants monogamy, and more importantly wants it with YOU.
Best to you.
19,
Not all men cheat but, I can guarentee you will continue to meet these types with this attitude. There are good men out there seeking a monogaous relationship but, we must be more discearning in who we chose to see.
19 years
I think open relationships are a crock of … and open marriages – ha! When you love someone you want them to yourself, not gallivanting around shagging other people, getting pregnant by other people, getting other people pregnant, spreading stds etc. I’m sure when we are young and think about our future we’re not thinking “.. and then I’ll meet a man/woman and we’ll have an open relationship and we can have sex with whoever we like. Brilliant”. I think we come to the idea of open relationships through disappointment, hurt, cynicism – not a good basis for making decisions.
Also, there are just two many variables – suppose one of you develops feelings for an outside party? Suppose one of the outside party develops feelings for you, or your spouse? Then what? Just throw them under the bus?
It may all seem like free love fun in your 20s and maybe even 30s but if you’re doing it in your 50s/60s it’s just sleazy. I also suspect that the “choice” of partners diminishes and then you’re left with your spouse. So it’s still just going to be the two of you – what you’ve been shagging around trying to avoid. And with your history, I’m not laying bets on a contented old age.
Open marriage-the ultimate in fall back relationships!!! After you can’t get anyone else, you still have wifey at home who obviously will keep you because she agreed to being a fall back. Sad really.
“Should women just agree to open relationships since men seem to always want more than one woman?”
Why don’t we just accept rape on our backs too. Or stoning. Or not being able to vote because some men don’t think we are equal. Don’t succumb to the idea we have to change our values to please some men. If you truly want to explore that because it is what you want, then give it a whirl but don’t do it because you think men want it. That is selling yourself out.
I was involved for 5 years with a guy that was emotionally unavailable. For two years, we were involved in an on and off relationship. Then one day, he showed up at my place for dinner and announced he was involved with a someone and that they were exclusive. Why he couldn’t call or email me his news (and cancel), I don’t know. I was understandably upset, because I loved him and wanted a committed relationship. He attempted to “comfort me”, but I sent him away.
Our relationship resumed six months later. We continued to see each other on and off for 3 years, with the girlfriend was still very much in the picture. He would start things with me, but when things would get intense, he would drop me. Wash. Rinse. Repeat. I let it happen because of “our amazing connection” and how miserable he supposedly was.
Things came to a head two months after we had an amazing night together. It had been intense, so he was avoiding me. I’d gotten a diagnosis from my doctor’s office that my abnormal pap smear had come back positive for HPV- the cervical kind. When I called him to tell him, he hung up on me, twice. I know that guys are only carriers, but he was the only one I’d been with in two years.
I was fed up. I believed that since his girlfriend might be at risk, she deserved to know. So I found her on Facebook and briefly told her about our relationship, the HPV, and attached an email that indicated our relationship existed. I didn’t want to hurt her or involve her, but if her health was at stake, she deserved to know the truth, didn’t she? Especially since he wasn’t taking my calls. I never heard from either of them. I knew telling him would end my involvement with him, but I don’t regret it. It got him out of my life for good.
Hi Judy,
What a story. Reminds me of one AC who got physical with me (not all the way, but enough to put me at risk) before telling me he had Hep C. And went around and did same with lots of women. Glad that getting rid of that guy was so final. Hope you never have THAT kind of “connection” again 🙂
Judy, I think you did the right thing! If it were my health, hell yes I would want to know. Good for you for being brave, I can imagine that was not an easy thing to do.
EmLAW,
Glad you had a good day. I made it through the day. I guess I’m just kind of surprised I’m not hearing from him. I don’t know why I would be surprised. Yes like you I told him so many times how he needed to treat me. And when I think about it, it’s kind of sad. I told him all I asked for was consistent contact and he couldn’t even do that much. I guess I’m not hearing from him because he was ready for a break and he doesn’t have the balls to tell me so my not contacting him makes it easy for him. And he is the king of future faking.
Today will be another day of struggling to resist. I hope it gets easier.
Ms O, your comments read like a woman in total denial.
“I told him all I asked for was consistent contact and he couldn’t even do that much” and “I guess I’m not hearing from him because he was ready for a break”
If you seriously think that, then you’re really misunderstanding the situation, and the concept of ‘I’m an option’, it seems.
He is NOT ready for a break. He simply DOESN’T want a break. He’s very happy with the drama he’s creating (yes, that’s right, C.R.E.A.T.I.N.G). And so are you.
He doesn’t want a break because, as Natalie, and other very insightful commenters, explained to you so brilliantly, he’s happy to have his cake, and eat it too.
Ms. O, this drama can go on as long as YOU want. WHO do you think is in control, here?
The drug (him).
It’s time you woke up to the role you’re playing in this drama, and opened YOUR own sack of denial.
This is NOT about him anymore. YOU were the one going out there seeking crack.
You’re an addict. And instead of sitting on your hands, pacing like a lion in a cage, feeling uncomfortable (withdrawal symptoms) wondering why oh why isn’t the Crack Cheater knocking on your door yet; how about figuring out WHY you’re an addict in the first place? Why are you hurting yourself like this?
NC is for YOU to clear your head off him, gain some much much needed perspective, REGAIN CONTROL of your life, by starting to work on your OWN issues (not his wife’s) to avoid any future drama with the same drug, different package. NC is NEVER a trick to get your drug back up your nose, teaching the drug a lesson, making the drug finally understand how IMPORTANT you are to the drug. And when the drug eventually (oh he will, trust me) sends you a text to test the water (hey, is my option’s door still open for more down-spiralling drama..), you will LEAP up in the air and say: SEE!, the drug loves me and can’t get enough of me……… The drug loves you?!? oh yeah. of course, it does. You’re paying a dear price for it, aren’t you? Your whole life, in fact. Wasted. Totally out of reach from a loving, respectful, honest and AVAILABLE man, whilst you’re wasting your time with this loser. So yeah, the drug loves you, I guess. NC is for YOU, about YOU, and only YOU.
Ms. O. all I hear from you at the moment is that a) you still haven’t admitted to yourself that you’re a Crack Cheater addict and b) consequently, you’re still in la la land, but NOW kinda gettin’ high from this..NC game.
Start getting REALLY uncomfortable, by asking yourself why you’re wasting your time with a man who is NOT available for a mutually healthy relationships in the first place.
If a loving, caring, AVAILABLE, honest, attractive, interested and interesting man would cross your path right now, do you think you’d be interested? Are YOU available?
Real Love (self-love) and addiction don’t mix at all.
Good luck with NC, because, from experience, it sure was incredibly painful, yet a necessary cathartic experience, that paved the way to emotional availability, and self-respect.
Take care,
Lucyd
Consistant contact is exactly what I requested soooo many times too!
This is from an actual email that I sent to him….at least he had warning 🙂
“The way I see it, given our situation, caring the way we do, it all depends on amount of effort we are willing to put into this and the consistency. When one of us stops seeing a consistent effort I guess then it will be time to give up”
We have to just think about it tho….here we werebegging someone to contact us. That is not what how I want a guy to treat me and nor should you. We need to keep strong and walk away with our heads held high!!!
Option,
“I told him all I asked for was consistent contact and he couldn’t even do that much.”
Why is this enough for you?
When you have to keep “telling” him how to treat you, it’s forget it time. That’s when you are just the woman who thinks and talks too much and does nothing. He’s like, ‘yeah, yeah, yeah… wish you would stop nagging’.
If you don’t mean to do anything about it, then don’t bother saying it – cos he has figured out that you are all hot air – all talk no action.
We need to stop “telling” these men how we expect to be treated and start “showing” them. Showing these EU/MM/AC guys means folding, taking your chips off the table and leaving the building. For good! That’s what showing him that you are worth more looks like! That’s what showing him how you expected to be treated looks like!
Day 10 of no contact and feeling very empowered! I am starting to think the “spell, trance, drama crack addiction” he had over me has been broken.
Hi, I have been a loyal reader of your blog for a long time, I always read it for reference only when I was with my ex boyfriend (we only had normal relationship power struggle issues, but not related to any emotionally unavailable behavior). Never thought I would be stupid enough to be cheated by face assclowns / EUM in my life.
So after I broke up with my ex, I sort of went out with this guy at work. Everything was initiated by him, he started adding me on facebook, IM etc., all the chatting and going out were initiated by him and yes, a lot of the time he only made the plans one or two days in advance. Things never got physical. Dates were only movies, dinners, other healthy activities. He then started holding my hand and touching my back, waist and shoulder after like 2 months. I felt uncomfortable doing that because we never clarified our relationship.. I wanted to ask but didn’t wanna sound desperate, and it may be awkward since he’s superior to me at work (also like 10 years older). It was and still is (hopefully) a secret to everyone at the workplace. Once I was at his place he tried to hug me and after that I asked why he did that, he only became distant and cold afterwards.
Two weeks later, I was told by a third party that he’s getting married in three months and he was there when it happened. And? As expected he didn’t even talk to me or explain what happened. I’m currently in a stage which I constantly feel ashamed, angry, disappointed, betrayed and miserable. I liked him So Much !! That’s why I never wanted to sound desperate or do anything to jeopardize our future relationship (as if there was any). All this time, he was caring, nice, gentlemanly, funny.. He texted me all the time about his daily whereabouts, who he’s with, blah blah.. Never heard a single word about the existence of another woman in his life. We went out at least once every week. And we texted and IMed all the time (just never talk on the phone). I know everything is over because he clearly only played me and is getting married. But I just don’t get it.. I am young and inexperienced.. He didn’t even try very hard to get physical with me.. what was he looking for? I was reading your post on “Letting Go of a Relationship…That Doesn’t Exist”, wonder if I am just imagining the whole thing? Or did he really do something across the line that led me on to believe…
Hyperb
Firstly, he is completely out of order making overtures to a subordinate. And you being ten years younger? He’s straying into sexual harassment territory.
As for him not trying to get physical with you, since I’m older and crankier than you, I have to tell you that when a man touches you and tries to hug you he wants it to get physical. Especially when you go to his place. I’m not blaming you, but I don’t think you should have gone there. Okay, some people ARE touchy-feely but he’s gone beyond that. Thank God he had enough decency not to pursue it when you did not reciprocate.
What did he want? You’re a young attractive woman. You admired him. You paid him attention. There doesn’t have to be actual sex for them to get a kick out of being with you. You can still talk to men, you can still flirt even, but there has to be a line.
You were perfectly within your rights to ask him what his intentions were. (I feel like a Victorian father “what are your intentions towards my daughter?) It’s not desperate. I used to be so scared of looking desperate that I would ironically end up in very desperate situations. Your life, your heart, above all YOUR body. Don’t let anyone have access to it without some hard questions. And if they are honourable men, they will be HAPPY to answer you and they will be PLEASED you asked – cos they know they’re dealing with a woman who respects herself and who would stick up for their future children.
Regarding the cheating side of it, what Nat says in her post applies, even if there was no actual sex. His poor fiancee.
It could have been worse. I’m glad you didn’t have sex with him. Your sense of self-preservation kicked in. All your instincts were spot on – you just need to trust them. It’s like being in the jungle. Is that a leopard? Is it? Looks like a leopard?. I see spots. Or is it a leaf? Jump already!
And it’s not about being stupid. I don’t mind admitting to being stupid, but it’s dangerous to think that intelligence will prevent you from being sucked in. This is more like an animal instinct. Some apparently dumb people would never let anyone treat them like this. They’re gone long, while a more “intelligent” person is still there trying to figure out what’s going on.
You weren’t imagining it. You did go out with him. He did touch you up.
Good point, Grace, about it being animal instinct. Wish someone had taught me that earlier in life! (All my old role models are still busy denying their gut feelings.)
He was looking for attention! Period! This was a little boost to the ego before getting hitched.
Boy, do I feel sorry for the wife!
There is also the possibility that he was passive-aggressively waiting for Hyper to initiate the sexual contact so that a) he could feel less responsibility for whatever happened and b) make it harder for her to get angry about his behaviour later because she started “it.”
BINGO! All of the other posts are correct, too.
He will continue to cheat into his marriage. Why? B/C he is going into it a cheater.
Once a cheater, always a cheater!
Oh, and the above is his modus operandi: “Let her start it all. Whatever I did before her ‘moves’, I did innocently…” “She is the Femme Fatale.” And, later, “SHE is the PSYCHOBITCH!”
Ahem.
Allison,
I don’t know why that is enough for me, but what is worse why even not that much has been enough for me.
Ashamed to say I exchanged a few texts again yesterday. And yes fearless it was the whole women who talk too much. He tells me his feelings or desire for me has not changed. That he is in a funk and depressed. That his home situation is getting to him. That he would call me when he got back to his room yesterday evening and discuss what was going on. Guess what? No call. I can’t decide if he is trying to get me to say it’s over or if he believes like you say he thinks I’m all hot air and will be around no matter what he does.
Option,
it’s not a matter of whether “he believes” you are all hot air – you ARE all hot air!! So he KNOWS you are all hot air. You think he doesn’t notice? Is he daft? There’s no kidding him on that you are serious about what you say when self-evidently you are not. You know the expression ‘selfish is as selfish does’? Well, so too ‘option is as option does’! Trouble here is that there’s no such thing as an honest cheater, and unfortunately he’s not the only one who’s cheating, so it works both ways. He’s not the only one in a funk! I don’t think you’re quite getting all of this on BR yet… you will… ! Good luck.
Option,
You are doing this to yourself. I am sorry to say this but, he has clearly shown you through his actions that he does not intend to have a future with you. It doesn’t matter what he says, he has shown you time and again that there is no future. The only thing you can expect from this man are empty words and manipulation. You’re choosing a situation that is unhealthy and full of drama and insecurity. Why not address why you are at this place?
Lucyd,
Wow. Just read your comments. You are right. I understand why you would say I’m addicted to to the drama. But I don’t want the drama. I want what he says he wants a future with him. I guess I don’t want to give up because they have had so many problems and separated so many times even before and during the time I wasn’t in the picture. So I guess I feel it’s a matter of time before it ends with them.
Blog hog here…
Option, see how you are the woman who has demonstrated that she has no sense of self worth, the woman who showed she has dubious values in cheating with a married man, the woman who tolerates all the crap a man will fling at her, all his coming and going and who accepts crumbs for attention and the woman who didn’t tell him to take a run and jump already… this man will not put a high value on you because you did not put a high value on yourself, so you may find that if his marriage finally does hit the skids he might want a woman who thinks a bit more of herself than that. He might want a woman he considers high in value. Worth having a think about that, cos I don’t think you’ve quite grasped yet the concept that if you demonstrate you have no value it stands to reason that he will believe you have no value – and he won’t want bargain basement goods for a second wife (according to you he has that already and he doesn’t like it?)
ms option
No, no, no. You’ve got it wrong. The fact that they’ve broken up and got together so many times means that it can continue indefinitely. Breaking up and getting back together is just what they do. They probably have great make-up sex as well. That’s their dynamic as a couple. I’m not saying it’s a good dynamic but it clearly works for them. It definitely works for him. He could leave her now and have you. But he chooses not to.
ms option, what do you think he was doing when he didn’t call you? He was having dinner with his wife and child. Or the three of them were at the movies. Or just schlepping about together in front of the tv. He certainly wasn’t sitting on his own waiting for a promised call that never arrived. And if he did happen to be on his own, that makes it even worse. What would his excuse be then?! But he wouldn’t have to make an excuse, you would do it for him.
I’m quite sure nine out of ten EUMs bleat about how much pressure they’re under, how trapped they are, how busy they are etc. Oh it’s fine for us to put our lives on hold while they can’t even make a phone call. It’s all about them and what’s convenient for them. Especially if he’s married. Yes, married. Try to think through the significance of that.
Lucyd is right Ms. O… you need to go NC to get your emotions in check. You need to go NC for yourself because you can’t see why you are trying to win over a cheater. He’s a cheater which means he’s NOT a good guy. Look at the big picture… let’s say you actually get what you want (although this usually never happens) and you two ride off into the sunset. After the high wears off, how are you ever going to trust this guy knowing his ability to deceive in the past… what’s to stop him from doing it to you? This is not a man who has enough emotional maturity to stop messing with you until he gets his house in order. Which means he has a lot of learning to do to become a man with integrity and honesty. He puts himself first. Terrible bet for a mate. NC is for you… to give you time away so you can get some perspective and see how this is an unhealthy situation. And also it allows you to see why you chose bad mates and focus on how to build up your self esteem to make better choices for yourself. Hard as it is, I would let this guy go and deal with his family. You’ll feel better about yourself before this gets worse.
Ms O.
Frankly? We are all banging our heads against your wall here (including your friend), enabling you to drag us all into your drama, which you have absolutely no intention of getting out of.
If you had read Nat’s post and many comments on NC, you would soon find out that it has nothing to do with your situation. You are playing games. And you’re now insinuating that he is, too.
BR really feels like a safe place to share, learn, and most importantly GROW. And I don’t think you are in that place at all right now.
In your own time, sure.
But at present, I think your needs would be better catered for by reading/posting on the tons of ‘how to manipulate your (EU)man to be with you’ sites out there.
This place sure ISN’T it.
Good luck.
Uh….don’t hold your breath.
Been there done that, all I got was more of the same, over and over again. Until I finally realized it was me and only me that wanted a real relationship with this guy. And to be honest I finally came to the understanding that it wasn’t the guy I wanted, it was the attention and affection of a real relationship and not him.
I understand everyone’s frustration with me. But I’m not playing games. I don’t think it’s playing games to cry yourself to sleep every night and promise yourself that you will no longer put yourself through this. Then struggle all day to fight the urge to give in and contact him. I have read through the NC posts and struggle with it everyday. I don’t know how to just stop loving someone.
EmLAW, I’m so proud of you. I hope eventually to be that strong.
Option,
I have been where you are – and would think the same kind of things.
You don’t seem to be absorbing (on any level) any of Nat’s articles here. Plainly you are not ready to listen: When the pupil is ready the teacher will appear (as if by magic!)
Trouble is you have it all back to front. Of course it’s hard to just stop loving someone, but to focus all your energies on this aspect is to focus on the wrong thing. You will find it impossible – literally impossible – to stop loving the MM until you realise that the reason you cannot stop is because you do not love or care for yourself!
You need to put ALL your focus on caring about YOU – that might sound trite or a bit silly to you – but lack of self love and self worth is what is at the core of your problem. Start dealing with that and you will be on the right road. You will start to see that ‘loving him’ means you cannot love you – that it’s actually very damaging for YOU – that it’s destroying YOU. You are actually involved in a horrible cycle of deliberate and willful sef-harm! Why are you choosing this cheating MM over your own well-being? When you realise comments like ‘you need to love yourself’ are not merely trite, meaningless platitudes but essential truths, you will begin to see that it’s not him but YOU who is the person here worth caring about and you will want to stop the damage to yourself – hence, stopping loving him will be easier.
How do you get there? go NC and focus all your thoughts on what a wonderful special human being you are; one who deserves – no, demands! – to be loved and cared for and understand that the singularly most crucial person who must love and care for you is YOU. To stop loving him you need to start loving you. That’s the reality here. There’s no short-cut! And it’s a wonderful discovery to find you CAN actually do that for yourself! It will bring liberty to the person you are and all that you can be – it’s that person who deserves your attention now.
Anyway, Option, at risk of banging on – I live in hope that somewhere in our comments and in Nat’s blog a seedling will start to root in your head! So another thought occurs to me: You do NOT love him. What you feel is a terrible need for him to validate you. It’s this need that needs to stop.
You are not yet in a place with yourself where genuine, authentic love can happen – and neither is a cheating MM/EUM! When you are in these involvements (with cheating, unreliable, MMs, or EUs and being EU yourself) you are not creating the conditions where healthy and fruitful love can take root, grow and be nurtured (and neither is he). Quite the reverse:
You are trying to grow a rose garden in a swamp.
You are struggling to achieve this. And you’re surpised? You shouldn’t be.
Option, many of us have been there — fighting the urge to contact the ex, and in pain. I couldn’t go no-contact on my flip-flapper until I hit bottom emotionally. I finally got that the pain of our sporadic contacts was worse than the pain of breaking it off altogether.
I look at it this way — as a child, I’d sometimes get splinters in my hand, and my mother, a nurse, would sterilize a needle and pick the splinter out. Of course, this hurt terribly, and I’d plead with my mother, “Please, please don’t take the splinter out!”
She’d answer, “It will hurt a lot for a little while, and then you will start to heal. If I don’t take it out, it will hurt for much longer, and maybe get infected.”
Think of n/c as being like getting a splinter pulled out, or a cavity filled….you’ll hurt a lot now so that you can heal and avoid worse pain in the future.
When I started reading Nat’s articles the concepts were all quite new to me. I thought love should hurt, like the Offspring song; it shows you really care. All I knew from my backround was that love was ‘earned’ according to your worth, your acheivements, your behavior etc. Let’s try to back off and give Option a chance to absorb this. I think we all feel really frustrated that she just doesn’t get it. But she will. [geees, I feel like Obi Wan pleading Luke’s case to Yoda..and I just made myself laugh over what a geek I must be!] Option, it is painful and will be for a while and yes, it is like withdrawal. You are trading one kind of pain [the healing kind] over another [the destructive pain = him]
It took me a long time to get it too. Nat’s eBook and blog made sense logically and after reading something I’d be like, “Oh, O.K. I get it now.” but then go right back to focusing on him and trying to analyze the crap out of everything. I just couldn’t seem to make the connection, I was in severe denial. MY MM was different. I spent months and months (and months) of regretful NC waiting on him to prove everyone wrong. Yes, I didn’t really utilize NC in the full way it was intended. I did do it because I emotionally couldn’t continue on in an affair with him. It was killing me on so many levels. But I also believed that if he really did love me, he wouldn’t want to lose me and would get his shit together and then come back. That was 9 mos. ago.
It definitely takes time and there’s no easy way but it’s next to impossible when you’re still in contact and still “high” on all the mixed emotions that comes with it.
No one of us here is better than any other. Just because you’ve been clean for a significant amount of time and someone else is still using doesn’t erase the fact that you were an addict too. If anything, it should make us more compassionate and understanding, and that’s my opinion.
Ms. O is as lost, confused and hurting as some of us once were. We all heal in our own time and when we are ready. Keep reading, don’t stop talking, focus more on YOU instead of him and the ‘relationship’ and decide that you deserve better than what he is capable of giving you. That’s your reason for NC. He’s had sufficient time to choose you and he hasn’t. So you choose you. (Hugs)
Don’t beat yourself up, I know what your saying, you can’t just turn this off like a light switch. It took me alot of time and effort and breaking it off with him and reading the things posted here and going to a therapist to get to the point where enough was enough. You will get to the point where you give up hope that you will ever be with this guy in a real relationship once it sinks in that even though he’s saying he’s unhappy in his relationship with his wife, it’s obviously not bad enough for him to leave, or if it is he just isn’t able to do it for whatever reasons. Don’t worry you’ll get to that point where you see no point in going on with this anymore and your feelings of love for him will fade. I speak from experience.
Whoa….my ex Future Faker had a co dependent ex harem. There was one in particular…. Get this:The one that they cheated on their ex wife with… Then this one cheats on them! But my ex kept this woman in the circle! In fact, there were a few in the harem who didn’t dig her …. Besides me. There was another gf after – the one b4 me … And since both these chicks were psycho there was much Drama! When I came along I did my best to not play the game and put my foot down but it was met with a year of persistant drama queen controlling behavior… And I was told they were just friends.at one point I realized it didn’t matter if they were having sex( this was denied when I asked) bc it was EMOTIONAL cheating! After a year with my boxing gloves on, fighting for my relationship… & their bs/broken promises ( I totally felt like the
OW!) that things would get better… It ended….
Grace, thanks for your response. Guess I will just have to learn from experience and stop being gullible. I guess I was responsible for not doing due diligence and asking the hard questions. Man, I was just being shy and he seemed like the perfect gentleman..
I finally did it. After not hearing from him again for the 2nd night after he had said he would call the night before. I sent him a text and told him he had hurt me for the last time. I’m Done! I knew if I just went NC that wouldn’t work for me because things would just be left open and it would be easier for me to make contact when having a weak moment.
This is not a manipulative move to try and get him to change. This is the first time I have outright told him I’m through. I also didn’t do it to get a response but that is the ultimate slap in the face, he didn’t even acknowledge it. I guess it’s crazy but that more than anything he has done shows me how he truly felt about me and reinforces my decision.
Now I have to work on getting him out of my mind and figuring out how to be a person that never let’s someone treat me this way again. I guess I had to suck it and see. If anyone who has been involved with an ac/eum is wondering if they should give them a 2nd chance…DON’T!
It’s my experience that telling the EU/MM that it’s over *after* they have disappeared on you – again – is the same as making nothing more of a pretense of closing the stable door after the horse has bolted in the hope that the bolting horse will fall for it and come galloping back whinying to be let back in. And when you realise the horse has actually bolted and wasn’t just pretending to bolt… you end up chasing after the horse…
Option – bizarrely, I get your reasoning; I used to use it myself – to avoid the painful truth – that the very act of finding him to tell him that your door is now closed when he’s not even chapping on the door is just trying to get him to come chapping on the door.
To mix my metaphors – if you’re serious about getting off the drug you don’t go hunting down the dealer, who you just saw getting on a bus out of town, to tell him not to come round again trying to sell you any more drugs. You just stop buying.
Blogger hogger again…
it occurs to me there’s an awful lot of lying and cheating goes on in these MM situations
– he’s lying to the OW
-he’s lying to his wife
-he’s lying to himself
– he is lying to freinds/family
– the OW is lying to him (yes, I think so!)
– the OW is lying to herself (yes, I think so!)
– the OW is lying to friends/family
– the OW would probably lie to the wife if she was confronted by wife in the midst of the affair (yes, I do think so)
– As for the wife: I suspect that if and when she suspects her husband is a ‘bit of a cheater’ and avoids confronting it, then she is lying to herself – and to her husband.
There’s a lot more cheating going on than just: that MM is lying to wife! What a mess it all is.
Good for you Ms. O. That’s the first step. Although I couldn’t do it at first because I was too busy blaming and being angry at him, eventually I got to the point where I realized how much self-harm I had inflicted. Then I got busy blaming me and beating myself up. Fearless and Natalie’s book helped me stop that. Slowly, the self love messages from this blog started creeping in, although at first I didn’t think I was worthy of even myself. Still not so sure but my mind knows better. I don’t know if it will help but what I’ve done is start to act like I am worthy of love and self-respect. Each day, I think of something I wouldn’t do when I was involved with the MM because my life revolved around him and I do it. For example: Simply going to a little cafe and having a salad; going on a hike whenever a I feel like it instead of waiting for him to call or sending angry texts because he didn’t call on time. I started becoming conscious of how many things I did in case we could get together and how I wouldn’t do those things if I wasn’t involved with him. St I wrote them down. Totally stupid but I always wanted my nails to be perfect for him. I haven’t gotten my nails done all summer. I’m doing them myself which is fine for me. Make plans. That’s something an OW can never do in case he calls and can get away at the last minute. Make plans with friends or family to do something, even something you don’t want to do, and then follow through. I had to force myself at first. Or just make plans to spend the weekend stucco patching your house. In Natalie’s book, she recommends “taking action”. Since I’m a doer, her suggestion has helped me. And trust me, I’m not out of the woods yet or holier than thou. I’ve walked in your shoes. I’ve cried every night only to wake up in the morning to fight the urge to talk to him too. There but before the grace of god go I…is that how it goes? Stay strong. Tape your fingers together.
Bra-vo Runnergirl!! I am trying to do the same now; filed under ‘Things he couldn’t be bothered doing with me’. I went to see the Importance of Being Earnest this weekend. He would have made some vapid excuse why he didn’t want to come along. Continue on your journey!!
Option,
Sorry, I don’t understand contacting someone to tell them you’re done, when they have clearly showed you they are not interested. If you’re finished, you cut them off. Period!
I hope for your sake that this situation is closed and that you recognize there is NO future with a MM.
I suggest you block ALL forms of contact. That includes, changing your number.
Thanks for the support. Seems I can’t do anything right.
Ms. Option, The ladies here obviously care about you. They rarely get so intense…but you have flip-flopped and thus it appears you aren’t fully engaged in withdrawing from your addiction. However, if you are set, and I think you do want to stop your pain, it is okay to have let the man know your intent; and I understand that telling him is letting him know and giving him closure…and it lets you feel better rather than you disappearing without explanation, and you have done this. Very good. In addition, a prior comment you made was not knowing how to stop loving someone: you don’t have to stop loving him but you CAN love him from a distance = keeping him out of your life even though you feel love for him. Having him IN your life without the commitment to you is/was a no win. Now, you have told him your plans and intentions to live without him. You have to love yourself enough to stick with it. I think I can speak for many of us to you…it hurts but it is worth it to end a situation that is slowly sucking the life out of you. No Contact is essential in regaining your perspective. Hugs girlfriend. We DO support you…
Very, very well said Leisha.
Ms Option – you have to do what feels appropriate for you because you and only you have to live your life. No Contact is something that *you* have to do and *you* have to get behind the decision of. You don’t need to ‘please’ me or anyone else here or seek validation from anyone here as it’s like exchanging one headache for another. Trust me, if and when you are ready, you’ll do it. Obviously I can assure you that if you *don’t* a shitty existence awaits you, but you’ll find that out soon enough.
That said, and this is why I’m really particular about asking readers *not* to treat the comments facility like a forum – say what you mean as opposed to saying what you think *should* be said or just sounding off with no real intention behind it – and say it in the context of commenting on the subject of the post. That way you think before you write.
Yes there are people here that comment that are doing NC everyone is at different stages so you don’t have to do NC to keep in with the gang while actually not because particularly when you have a trail of what’s been previously said, it becomes confusing.
Option
the fact you recognise you are/were in the middle of a big problem is doing something right and you are starting to see it might be a good idea to do something about it… all good!! I suppose what some of us are trying to say is to rcognise you need to take your power back, and that is at least starting to dawn on you. Good luck.
Option
You’re on day 1 of a long journey, and reasoning resonates with me. It takes a lot of courage to face our fears and make a stand — ergo, the “I’m done”. It’s official, it’s out there, you’ve said it, you’ve committed to over. Hey….we all hoped we were wrong, and that they did really care, but by the time we have the courage to say “enough”, it comes as no shock that we were right.
Do yourself a favor, and BELIEVE what you read here, and BELIEVE that these men have absolutely no capacity for love, trust, respect, concern or consideration for anyone but themselves. I know as a human, it’s hard to grasp, but is nonetheless true.
Don’t give him one more shot…..all that will be waiting is regret.
Ms. Option,
Yes you can do things right. The first thing you did right was deciding you had enough. Even though you texted him to tell him that, it’s a start. I think the reason you did that is because you are still in the place where you want/need validation from him. That’s okay , it’s a process. It’s natural that you want validation in the beginning of starting NC.
As the days and weeks pass and you get distance and perspective from the situation you will start to put all the pieces together.
Remember; babies don’t learn to walk by just getting up and walking, they crawl first and then when they learn to stand, they fall tons of times before they are able to walk.
Take it day by day and focus on the small changes you are making each day, that eventually add up to big internal shifts and a new way of seeing life.
You just left the shore and are in the middle of the sea, keep looking out, there is another shore on the other side.
Good luck,
Ms. O.
It’s evidently much easier for us to see your situation for what it is (based on what you say). Your story was simply not congruent with Nat’s post/message, hence our challenging/attempting to pierce your bubble of denial (no judgments were passed).
At last. Your last comment conjured up a ‘one of Ms O.’s bruised leg out of the Lion’s mouth’ imagine. You’re putting up a fight!
Phew.
I agree with Allison, but I also understand what that last text to the Big Cheat means to you. I, too, prefer a clean cut from the poisoned chalice. You’ve said your goodbyes, now you need to stay gone for good, and that includes NOT reading, listening, or answering any of his pestering growls (texts or phone calls).
BLOCK all forms of communication.
Please read Nat’s NC posts, book, and enormously helpful comments, time and again, to help you through the coming weeks/months. Good luck!
Oh and you’re definitely doing something right..
It takes courage to face our own demons. You’re here already. You’ve shared that not so glorious situation with us.
Addictions (and habits) are not easy to break. The first step is to recognise that you have a problem, which I think you’re beginning to acknowledge..
Now get the rest of your battered body (and mind) out his gargantuan mouth.. And start healing. In your own time..
Welcome to BR.
Ps. Forgive us Nat for temporarily turning this platform into a mini EU/AC Anon/group therapy sessions for ‘OW in denial’.
Thanks everyone. Sorry I just feel very low.
Thanks runnergirl you gave me some very good advice. I used to be an avid reader. Usually about one a week. In the year and 4 months I have been involved with him I think I have only read 2 books. I just haven’t been able to concentrate long enough to finish a book.
I am going to the beach next week and I am determined this time to enjoy the time with my kids. Last year when I went I couldn’t enjoy it at all because he had disappeared the week before and wasn’t answering me.
Ms. O, you don’t need to apologize for being low. Being low is part of the healing process and I’ve been there too and still am some days. It was amazing to me how many things I was doing or not doing because I was “on call” in case he could lie to his wife and be with me. Then, of course, he must have had to lie to me to be with his wife. I kept re-reading the definition of cheating in order to understand there is no such thing as an honest cheat. We do not have to live like that.
It is wonderful you may be able to get back to reading. I love reading too. And even more wonderful that you may be able to enjoy the time with your children at the beach. Kids grow up and leave so fast. Try to do one little thing for yourself (or maybe the kids at first) each day. Or maybe do nothing…just for you.
Keep reading BR. I could not have made it through the early days of NC without Natalie and all the wonderful comments. Thank you all.
Hugs. It truly, truly does get better.
Option
I know how you feel. My EUM ‘relationship’ ruined countless holiday periods for me because he had done a Harry Houdini and I was frustrated, distracted, obsessing and miserable waiting and hoping he would get in touch or answer my messages, or I was just being plain beside myself with all consuming fury that he had done this AGAIN!
Here’s the best news there is if you stay in the OW relationship for as long as I did with the EUM (on and off for ten years – yes, ten! So don’t feel so bad!):
You become very used to the EU/MM pattern of behaviour; it becomes so predictable to you – it becomes your normality; you will be able to write his script for what he’s about to say or do; you will have learned well your place and what the score is; you get very good at asking for nothing and expecting nothing; you stop wasting your time explaining how you feel or pleading for contact, you stop trying to affect any change at all… in short: you experience what psychologists call ‘learned helplessness’.
Bear all of that in mind when he contacts you, or if vice versa – cos believe me you don’t want to go any further down this MM/EUM road.
I know exactly how trying to be with an EU man feels, Option, so I feel for your distress. If you want to help yourself, when you are ready, try to affect change in yourself not change in the MM relationship cos in there you are helpless to affect any change at all. We all do mean and wish you well and hope you have a relax at the beach – take books and read them! (maybe some books on how to ditch an MM and love you instead!!)
ps and Nat is right; you don’t have to act to please anybody here! If you say you are struggling to stay NC and you don’t make it first time, or second time – so be it – it’s hard! (Join the club on that score! Me guilty!)
Fearless,
I wasn’t the OW, I was the g/f, and spent many a truly miserable holiday for the same reasons. Anxiety, fear, frustration….and anger that, yes, he DID IT AGAIN. You should all know that he had numerous other women, most of them I assume clueless to his duplicitous nature. I know the one I caught him with had absolutely NO idea that he had a g/f. We’d been together 3 years at that point. I’m sure she was equally unaware of the one I caught him with 6 weeks later. Or any of the internet hook-ups (STD central) along the way.
Love your posts, BTW.
Option,
We only want the best for you.
You can’t imagine the personal growth and self-satisfaction you receive when remove yourself from this type of situation. Not only do you eliminate a toxic element but, you see where this behavior has been playing a part in every part of your life. You have the opportunity to become a woman who again, loves and respects herself!
It up to you! He has NO control!
I just can’t believe how similar they all act. The disappearing and hot and cold was so confusing and strange to me but from everything I read with everyone else’s experience, that is what they do.
This is hard for me and will continue to be hard. I told him back in Feb. that I was not going to continue to be involved with him as long as he was still with her. I made it a whole month without contacting him. Then heard she had been arrested again, so I broke contact thinking maybe that would be the end. I should have never broken contact because it was easier then he had been blowing lukewarm all that time and I hadn’t went through that idealizing stage of me since the first go round. Now that hot,idealization stage has just ended and it’s hard to get over just being so shocked that he goes from that to being so cold. I know I have to concentrate on me but it is so hard not to wonder what happens in his head or life that has him going from telling me I am the best thing that has happened to him since his daughter was born to not even wanting to talk to me. It almost makes me feel like I imagined it all. Does anyone else feel like this? And how do you trust anyone again? I feel like Alice in Wonderland.
Yes, Option, that’s why people say it’s painful, confusing and bewildering – you never know what’s real and what’s not real. It’s lke being landed on another planet… you think you’re speaking the same language, but they don’t seem to understand you and you don’t understand them.. it’s like being lost in space; you are trying to find your way but all the signs from him that you are following lead you down a blind alley… you turn back and try another sign… another blind alley… it’s crazy land where everything is crazy making… and you end up crazed and crazy. It’s like playing Blind Man’s Buff in a hall of mirrors. It’s all smoke and mirrors. At last you realise the problem is that you’ve been trying to negotiate your way around Crazyville with a blind fold on – you realise that you cannot trust in him and are deluding yourself! And to get back to earth you need to take the blindfold off – it’s uncomfortable, but that’s the only way back. You’ll get there!
ms option
You’ll understand him better when you understand yourself first. You’re trying to understand him through the prism of your own emotional unavailability. EU women get involved with EU men. It doesn’t make us bad people but we are as contrary as them. We say we want a proper relationship but hook up with married men, or end up FWBs or in longterm things with men who can barely give us the time of day. We say we are attractive, intelligent, etc and don’t have low self esteem, yet somehow find ourselves in relationships with men that are downright abusive. If you want to know what a woman really thinks of herself, look at her boyfriend/husband and how he treats her.
Shift the focus to what it was about this situation that worked for you. Why do you compete with other women? Why does it excite you when a man blows hot and cold? Why is it so important for you to win over someone who rejects you? It takes a while and hard work to figure it out, there’s no time to figure him out as well. Once your issues are cleared up you won’t care about him anymore. But you do get the bonus of saying to yourself “He was just using me for sex/ego stroke/shoulder to lean on” (as Nat says) and ACTUALLY BELIEVING IT instead of trawling around for more. There is no more.
Grace, I love reading your comments. You are so succinct about everything. Please don’t ever stop posting! I love this comment – it’s so true… sad for me, but so true. This line, and what it means, I already know will stay with me for the rest of my life:
“If you want to know what a woman really thinks of herself, look at her boyfriend/husband and how he treats her.”
I don’t think you know what a help you are to me and I’m sure to many here. And be aware that many here like me have daughters… and the wisdom I find here will also be passed to her… and so to her daughters if and when… Thank you so much!
thanks fearless
I don’t think I can take credit for that, I’m sure I must have read it somewhere and it stuck. Also, it’s something that my counsellor was trying to tell me when I kept saying “No, I don’t have low self-esteem”. He must have been thinking HEL-LO!
I don’t have daughters but I have five nieces and I feel very protective towards them as they grow up. If any man gave them the runaround I’d want them out of there pronto.
Grace, I also enjoy reading your comments and the fact that you don’t judge. I’ve stuck my feet in my own pit of judgement and self abuse too many times already. This site has helped me through some pretty hellish weeks. I recognize myself in this post with alarming clarity: the daughter of a hypercritical, narcissistic mother, an absent albeit loving father. “Why is it so important to win over someone who rejects you?” I am still trying to get the love and acceptance I needed as a sensitive child. “Why do you compete with other women?” Second best syndrome as a middle child of three sisters-one a “glowing girl” and the other, a troubled rebel- forced me to compete for attention. I lost, of course. Competing with other women has landed me in understudy roles as the OW. I lost, of course. OK, crying now, but just wanted to say thanks for the post.
In my experience, learning to trust is all about trusting yourself. To know that, if a situation turns sour, that you will walk away. This takes time and you really need time for yourself after you’ve come out of a painful situation. You need time to just sit by yourself and be kind to yourself. Now is not the moment to be thinking of the next relationship.
It’s all about learning what your boundaries are, working through the stuff from your past that’s affecting your current behaviour, finding your strength again, realising that it’s ok to be angry if someone treats you badly. Then you can make yourself vulnerable, because you know that, even if the guy is a complete waste of space, you will walk away. This is how i was able to become open to my current relationship. It wasn’t about finding someone who could prove, beyond a shodow of a doubt, that they were perfect and wouldn’t ever hurt me (no one can guarantee that, even the nicest people mess up sometimes), it was about trusting that if *I* didn’t like the way things were going, i would get the hell out of there.
You will get there, give it time. 🙂
Minky,fantastic advice and so true.
Hi, I have been kept in the dark without knowing that he was in a committed relationship all this time. I sent him an email just to tell him how if I had known any of these , I wouldn’t even have gone out with him. I didn’t expect a reply. He replied a few days later saying he was engaged a year ago but “things have changed” and even though he broke up with the gf, their relationship now is “unclear”. Basically what he was saying is he didn’t wanna update people in the workplace regarding jis relationship status. What should I respond to this, no reply? We work in the same office so I don’t intend to generate any hard feelings. Is there a chance he’s telling the truth? Or is he just lying to make himself look better, because my feeling is when he didn’t explain right after, it already showed he didn’t care. The “unclear relationship” part simply suggest he’s not interested in me any more?
hyperb
“unclear” is not exactly a ringing endorsement.
He doesn’t know his arse from his elbow. Stay away from people who don’t know why they do things or if even they’re in a relationship. “I don’t know” is borderline acceptable when you’re interrogating a four year old on why she hit her sister, it doesn’t pass muster here.
I tell you what’s unclear – your feelings for him. Do you want this flipflapping fool? (correct answer: NO). You can work with him without a heart to heart. I think you should drop it unless you want more of the same.
Picture it:
“Do you love me?”
“I’m unclear”
“Shall we get married?”
“I don’t know”
“Why does that girl from work keep texting you?”
“Not sure”
hyperb,
this guy is definitely a lying cheater! here is a fact: he has not been straight with you. And plainly he is not being straight with his “unclear” fiance either, who, make no mistake about it, will be even more unclear than you are! He’s trying to line you up (groom you even) for option status.
Flush him fast!! Take care of you!
Hyperballad, do not reply and do not send any more emails. He does not care about the current GF, (the woman he was once engaged to) so why would he care about you? Please stop fishing around for interest. As for him not wanting people in the work place to know about his relationship, if that were true he wouldn’t have dated someone from the work place in the first place. Don’t talk to him any more at work, unless it is work related. Ignore him. If you pass by each other, smile , look happy and keep moving on by. And do not answer that email.
why do you care?
the biggest signs he is bad news:
1. he didn’t contest what the other guy said (that he is engaged”) when the guy said it.
2. he is telling you that his relationship is “unclear”–but:
A. he is still IN a relationship; and:
B. he ADMITTED that he got engaged a year ago.
also, from what the co-worker wrote, wasn’t the guy getting married in a few weeks/months? THIS fact he HAD to contest.
if he IS telling the truth, then he is a weak personality, and/or the girl dumped him, and probably for very valid reasons!
bottom line: you won’t want this guy.
Every once in a while, the guy from high school (on & off for years with no real relationship) will cross my mind and I SHUDDER, mentally slapping myself in the forehead for believing that he was an “honest cheat” (couldn’t put a name to the behavior then, but “honest cheat” is perfect). For the love of god, the excuses I made for the excuses that HE made….. *shudders* 😐 He was with the girl for over 11 years! *slaps forehead* *shudders*
Same goes for an old college boyfriend from freshman year. We were an item for only 3 months & remained friends, messing around every once in a while, and he was pretty much the same as the high school asshat. Ugh, WTF was I thinking? Honest cheat???!?!? 😐
Sigh. I lived & I learned. Thank goodness I didn’t have sex with either of ’em, and thank goodness for lightbulb moments. I’d NEVER do that to myself again, and I’d NEVER let an “honest cheat” play those mind games again.
When I first read his email, I thought he was trying to defend himself by saying “I broke up with my gf” (so technically he’s not considered cheating), and the “unclear” serves these purposes: 1) he could suddenly make up with his gf and still get married in 3 months and 2) he no longer wants to have anything to do with me.
Maybe it was my fault for ever sending him that email in the first place to clarify that I never knew he has a committed relationship going on ( I’m new at the office , apparently a lot of others know that he’s got a gf, which I just discovered ..).
He also explained he didn’t update the person who sort of announced his engagement because of specific work related concerns (which to me sounds rather reasonable). He looked embarrassed and didn’t admit nor deny at that time. He also admitted in the email that he didn’t expect the guy to announce it, so it came as a shock.
I know I should stay away from this guy because of all his dodgy behaviors, though I just can’t help but wonder if things are really as bad as they seem. I should not even reply? Not even a single word? It’s over , isn’t it ? =(
Hyper… when the person announced his “secret” impending marriage there are other possible reasons why 1) he looked embarrassed 2) why the other guy’s big mouth came as a shock to him 3) why he couldn’t admit or deny that he was engaged. What could those reasons be, do you think, Hyperb? You are interpreting the scene from from the perspective of him as an honest decent guy. Try the other perspective for a minute and a different (more plausible?) picture will emerge.
What a string of excuses… and what for? If his marriage was off, it would be off. It’s not.
A lot of others know that he’s getting married but you and only you are let into his secret that it’s “unclear”. Convenient.
Yep. I’ve been there before with same crap. I got: I have split up with my g/f that I was living with and have moved into my mother’s… but I haven’t made common knowledge of it cos I’m so embarrassed that I am a grown man living back with my mum just now (subtext: would appreciate if you didn’t mention my predicament to anyone who knows it’s a load of garbage!). I checked it out. He was living with the g/f.
Same cheater script hyperb – they all have the ‘cheating for dummies’ manual.
Option, I know how you feel about the imagining it all part. But I just keep telling myself, if he really cares as much as he claimed, why would we feel any less than that? Unless he is emotionally unavailable and just said those things to get you hooked to get whatever he wants out of you.
Hyper and Option,
Listen to Fearless and the others. Read BR, the comments, and Natalie’s book Mr. U and the FBG. I’ve so been there. I’m still there, simply reeling. It is incredible how they play us. They have a script. I’m so sorry, your situation is not unique. Keep reading this fabulous website. It’ll make you sick and then healthy, I see it even though I’ve not crossed the line yet into healthy. I’m trying to get there.
Okay Grace, you were right…may I punch him in his fat mug now?
Fearless, thanks for pointing out many things that I could have missed… I am inexperienced and foolish and damn, he was my crush.
Even just the fact that he didn’t ever try to explain right after the “marriage” came into light and even blocked me over instant messenger (still appearing offline as of now), shows that he really doesn’t give a shit about my feelings and what I think. As I said, he only explained a few days after my email….. you see, I just don’t think he’s even lining me up for option status. So what’s all these explanations about ? No need to lie any more right, if he’s not even considering me as option.
I wish that something or he will prove me wrong… He always has a really good image. Him + lying cheater just can’t seem to go together…
Hyperballad, he’s telling you this information to in his eyes improve his image. The message is “it’s not what you think” although he’s not providing any alternative explanation because there isn’t one and you don’t really need one. He just dowsnt
I’ve even been to his place, there’s no trace of female existence…. + he is okay with holding my hand in public …
hyperb
Even before you knew he had an ex/current girlfriend/”unclear” situation, you had your doubts. You find out that he either has/had a fiance and now you’re looking for every reason to pursue him. Has anything actually changed since your original doubts? He’s become LESS of a good prospect, yet you have become MORE committed. Every FB girl here knows that dynamic! That’s what we do, the worse he is, the more we want to turn it round.
You’re in the world of EU, I suggest you get out while you can. However, you are, crucially, free to do as you wish. Whatever happens, do remember that.
It doesn’t matter.
The only thing you should be concerned about, is the fact that he did not share the upcoming event-the most important in his life.
I would bet money, that his fiance didn’t know you were hanging out.
Stop making excuses for the guy and see the situation for what it is. Please!
Hyperb
is he okay with holding your hand in front of people who know he’s (“unclearly”) engaged? It occurred to me after posting a comment here last night that the guy who made the ‘big announcement’ in front of you may have been doing it as a warning – to you – and your man didn’t like it.
Let me tell you a (shortened) story about no trace of female existence: a lovely friend of mine was dating a guy – at work. He took her to “his flat” (apartment) where he lived alone. He took her there a number of times. No trace of female existence. Much later after him giving her much run-around, she discovered a big cupboard in his flat with stuff in it – male stuff – but not his stuff. Turned out it was not his flat. It was his pal’s flat. He (the b/friend) didn’t live there. He lived in a big bungalow with his wife and child.
Food for thought? Keep your hand on your penny!
Looks like your man has realised (now that his cat’s out of the bag) that you can’t be an option… but be careful, now that he’s decided it’s more trouble than it’s worth, that you don’t go offering to line yourself up for it on the grounds that he holds your hand in public. He was chasing a thing with you and didn’t bother telling you he was already attached. That’s all you really need to know; the rest you are making up for him. Good luck.
Has everybody found that there are an inordinate amount of women in the picture? I mean, there’s cheating, and there is having no desire to keep ones pants on when anybody with girl parts says ‘okay’.
Is there something about their emotional availability that makes them so promiscuous? Is it because of the EU, or is promiscuity just another result?
had_enough, it’s a humorous and very valid question. I’m amused because I saw the same thing with my EUMM, after the fact, of course. He was back on an affairs website “hunting” within days of our demise. He always claimed it was “primal urges,” but here was a man with some impotence issues who could barely meet me once a month for sex! Maybe it’s more validation and the reassurance that they are attractive, sexy, virile… also, the pursuit/conquest of many partners helps keep distance from all of them so in that sense it would be a result of being EU. I know he’ll never have me again! I am NOT that woman, hurrah!
am i being blinded? what do you do the moment the wool has been pulled from over your eyes? yes i am cheating, yes it is wrong. I have just realized i have become his “layaway plan” and the Fast forwarding has had me captivated for a while. I mean he wants kids! and a house together. I had to ask him how many times a day does he have these conversations about futures? a future with me and then with her as well? i want to leave but i keep believing him when he says he loves me, its been 7 years since i met him and we’ve only gotten physical within the last few weeks- we were friends before now. Everyone hopes they will be the exception to the rule and that he really loves you and all your “future talk” will come into being. Deep down we know that wont happen but we hope anyway. Why?
Candace
If I had a pound for every time I’ve read “We’ve been friends for x years, it’s only just got physical”, I might have … about ten pounds. I think Nat would probably have a few hundred.
I understand absolutely that you believe a solid friendship should be a good foundation for a solid relationship. Unfortunately, some people seem to think that a solid friendship is a springboard to using you, and that you WILL understand, cos you’re “friends”.
You’re not friends. I keep saying this, but friends don’t have sex. If you’re thinking of having sex with a friend, proceed with the same caution as if it was someone you’ve just met. Maybe more caution.
If you know deep down, then follow that instinct.
candace,
I have been thinking a lot about that recently – “why do we wait?” but more “what are we really waiting for?”. As Nat says we are looking for validation. It really is that simple, I think, and the reasons for that stem from a lack of self-worth or self-esteem… but I was thinking over my life generally and the men I wanted, or got, or chased or waited for in my life and I wondered… why did I not just get on with my own (wonderful) life – what was holding me back?
And I thought of other people who appear to do life wholeheartedly, they do their “own” life, they appear to have nothing to hold them back from being what they want to be… they have an enviable sense of “freedom” of self; they are in touch with themselves first and foremost, they keep moving forward, they don’t look over their shoulders, they don’t wait for reluctant people to stop being reluctant and they don’t ever look down!
Yet, I feel I have felt that I was always “waiting”, clinging or grasping at something or someone to hold me up and take me forward – a sense that me, myself and *my* life will really be only available to me when…? when…? Well, when what exactly? And then I thought… well, (as much as I can pin it down) when somebody (male) that I had decided I really liked came along and VALIDATED me! So these words “unable to validate yourself” and “poor self-esteem” really do mean something very important – they mean that you have no real sense of ‘self’ as seperate from the validation of a significant other, that you can only see yourself or your life as something worth your effort, worth doing with wholehearted abandon *once* the man you want wants you. Trouble is… when and if he does that you are then enslaved to his validation… forever!! The problem then does not go away – you never experience freedom of ‘self’, not until you deal with the actual problem which is the way you view yourself – not the way he views you. ‘Normal’ people don’t “wait” for anybody or anything that doesn’t want them back… they have a sense of who they are, what they want – and they want total unlimited access to all that they can be and want to happen for them in their *own* (wonderful) lives – not ‘his’!
Phew… that’s what I was thinking in the car on way home from work…!!
Well stated, Fearless. In a nutshell, time waits for no (wo)man.
why do we hope? Because we want to be in a relationship, because we’ve been conditioned by society, our families, movies etc. to want to be paired up, it’s also part of our DNA to pair up. We get some signs from a guy or things they do we read as signs that they want the same thing. Turns out alot of them just want to pair up yes, but not for the full on commitment of a relationship.
Fearless,
You just described me exactly. Waiting on him to validate me to go on with my life. And still waiting.
Yes, spinster – time waits for no woman who’s waiting for a man to give her a sense of ‘completion’! OW’s and women with EU ‘relationships are waiting for something from ‘him’only because we believe – erroneously – that 1) he has it to give us (he doesn’t) 2) that we do not already have it (we do) .
There is a great deal of literature (The novella The Alchemist is a good example) of characters who travel far and wide beyond home, or beyond themselves (metaphorically or otherwise), searching… endlessly searching…being seduced and deceived along the way by all manner of false gods and fool’s gold… searching for ‘that something’ which will fulfill and enrich them… to finally make the return journey back to the place from whence they came, finally realising this is where it was to be found all along. EUM/MMs are doing the same thing… which is why neither party can find what they are looking for in an affair or in a EU invlovement. The search – for you and for him – will be fruitless, as both are are looking in the wrong place.
Whatever it is I thought was always ‘missing’ from my life… I now at least know where to find it – it was here with me all along… it’s within arms reach, inside myself – it’s me! Now I need the courage to grab it, extract it from myself and offer myself the gift of me! (I don’t think the MM is the “the gift” Ms Option. I think you are).
That’s the end of that little hobby-horse of mine. Thanks for listening. Good luck everyone!
What a beautiful, meaningful on point comment. So true. It all lies within ourselves. We need to love ourselves and I for one can say that I didn’t. I looked for someone else to fill up my emptiness when all along it’s what I needed to do for myself. No more wasting time trying to figure out why he’s the way he is…I need to turn that curiosity towards myself and learn to make myself happy with myself.
I hope that everyone here does the same thing, it’s really what we need to do. Thanks to all the ladies here for sharing their stories, it’s healing and helps us all grow and move forward in a healthy way in our lives and away from destructiveness.
Hi All,
This website has been a lifesaver for me. My ex-MM was supposed to leave his wife for me on Saturday (July 2). 8 days before (almost two weeks ago) he called to say he couldn’t do it. ‘He wouldn’t be able to live with himself if he left – it was his duty to stay with his children’. This was after 18 months and excuse after excuse after excuse, none of which interestingly related to the kids until he finally ran out of rational excuses, the walls were closing in on him and he fell back on the easy get out clause. This is after the greatest amount of future faking, you could ever imagine. ‘I want you to be my wife, I can’t wait to move in with you, I’ll be celebrating your birthday with you NEXT year, we’ll be together for Christmas. and so much more. I still cannot believe how I allowed myself to get involved but I definitely thought he was an ‘honest cheat’ which I now know is just another byword for A/C. I have learnt so much from this site, from your book Mr Unavailable & The Fallback girl and I’ve just got to keep on learning to ensure I never put myself in such a undermining position again. This is after a shitty marriage which lasted 14 months and 2 years in CODA – I think I had learned a lot in that time but not enough to send me head long into the next relationship with an EU A/C. Now it is enough…. now I have the tools and the power and now I’m going to use them. ‘I’ll be back’ 🙂
I had a friend, he had a girlfriend. Over the course of 6 years our friendship grew into something really quality and valued. We hung out many times a week and really got close. Yes, he complained of his insane relationship and problems at home but in all that time there was never ever, ever, a single flirtation or desire or vibe on either of our parts to hook up. I think the reason we became such good friends is BECAUSE there was no sexual tension. He was not a cheater and I was not a home wrecker. Neither of us had any track record of such behaviors. Period. In all honesty he sort of annoyed me and I never even thought of being with him physically I just didn’t think about him that way. You are just going to have to believe me, I didn’t want him and he didn’t want me. He wanted things to be better at home – that’s what he wanted. Really. One evening we went out to dinner and had a fantastic time and all of a sudden, mid laughing fit, I just sort of “saw” him – like for the first time – like in a cheesy movie when everything gets real slow and surreal – but this was real – and I felt very attracted to him. It was such a bizarre realization that I felt like I was psychotic! I shook it off and blamed the tequilla. 6 years and I never even noticed what color his eyes were? Because I really didn’t care! But after that I couldn’t stop thinking about what it would be like to kiss him. We hung out a few more times after that, I definitely felt attracted but also now ashamed because I got zero of this sentiment in return. Zero. One day we were hanging out as usual and again having a particularly great day and I flirted. I wasn’t trying to hook up with him, it was just how I was feeling inside and I guess it just slipped out. I got really panicked and I fully expected it to cause a highly awkward moment that would be horrible for my ego and also confusing to him, possibly anger him.
Um, yeah well he jumped on the opportunity and OMG fireworks. Really there no words to describe the intense passion and affection. The tender moments and animal magnetism and close friendship all rolled into an affair that moved my soul. He felt some serious feelings for me and was just as shocked by the course of events as I was. Now what do we do? Yes, he spoke of leaving his GF for me, of the future – all of it. Of course he couldn’t do it…
Jane:
“Of course he couldn’t do it…”
Of course he couldn’t!
Re Nat’post here – notice how they are NEVER in a position to do ANYTHING they say they want to do – not immediately – not right now and “right now” can stretch into years and years. You can get stuck in a time warp with these men – that’s how much bullshit they talk.
So true, another famous thing they say is “i’m not ready yet”. Guess what, they never will be. Meanwhile you continue to invest your time, energy, and emotions in a relationship that will never become a real life relationship. You are just his emotional buffer, shoulder to cry on, someone to pass the time with, and someone he enjoys “playing” with (having sex with and getting affection and attention from) without ever having to leave the safety and security of the marriage. If these men really wanted to leave their marriages, they wouldn’t have started an affair. And all the things they say as to why they “aren’t ready yet” or “not in the position to leave at this time” are just their way of stringing us along (because we are sooooo understanding and they know we will eat it up because we want them so badly) so they can continue to get both sides of their bread buttered without having to lift a finger other than to keep dangling the baited hooks at us, and they know what are hooks are because we’ve told them. They know we will keep jumping at the bait. What we need to do is stop, think, and ask ourselves, is this good for me? And keep doing this over and over until it sinks in to our heads that it’s not. We need to ask ourselves why do we fall for this bull? What is “hooking” us into this? And once we focus on asking ourselves why we do what we do and not why are they doing what they do, we get closer to what makes us tick, so that we may begin to remove these “hooks” from our own skin, so we can stop engaging in such a destructive relationship that will only lead to more of the same misery go round. Take those feelings of compassion and understanding we have for him and his situation and his emotions and give it to ourselves, where it is most important, where it is going to do the most good for ourselves in the present and future. And never forget he won’t be any different with you if you where married to him, he’d still be him with all his issues and EUness. It’s not her fault he’s the way he is. He chooses to cheat because it’s easier than taking responsibility for dealing with whatever is going on in his life. An affair is just a diversion to him and serves a means to an end, and that end doesn’t involve getting divorced or dealing with his own problems. We are just pacifiers. Men who are “unhappy” or cheat in…
Dawn:
“If these men really wanted to leave their marriages, they wouldn’t have started an affair.”
Well said, Dawn. I think this is the nub of the matter. If he wanted to end his marriage he would be ending it, not having an affair(s).
That’s why they are called “extra-marital affairs” and not “instead of-marital affairs” !
Fearless:
Learned that right here from Natalie! It about sums it up -these jerks just want “extra” is right. They want what they’ve got which is 2 women who are willing to participate and allow him to get away with getting “extra” while they get crumbs. I for one no longer participate or allow it anymore-lucky I woke up from my nightmare. Feel bad for the wife that she hasn’t woken up. She already knows he cheated on her but she’s keeping him. Wish I could do something to help her, but I can’t. It bothers me to no end that I can’t do anything about it. At least I can share my knowledge and experience here with everyone so that they may become aware of the realities and hopefully learn that they need to wake up and do what’s best for them. If they choose to stay with him they are more than likely not going to have the outcome that they desire unless they lower their expectations and accept cheating. It’s up to them in the end how to deal with it. I just don’t want women to stop and think and that just because they “love” this guy he’s going to change or they can “heal” them and have the relationship they dream of with a faithful partner who’s only commitment to the relationship and the reasons he’s in it is to use her for what he can get whatever it maybe. I think alot of women who keep cheating men are under the delusion that by keeping them and not making them suffer the consequence of their behavior(breaking vows) and making excuses for their actions, denying, minimizing, rationalizing, forgiving, is going to make him fall back in love with you because he will think your so wonderful and saint like to put up with him and his crap, and it proves how much you really love him. Yeah, he’ll stay as long as it suits him, but I doubt that it will get you the love, care, respect and true commitment that you are hoping for. I’ve seen people take people back that cheat, I’ve done it myself, but I never got what I truly needed in the end and ended up leaving eventually. Everybody is different some people just can’t face breaking up with someone no matter how they are treated. So sad.
He is not interested in how much we prove to him how much we love him – that doesn’t convince him to love us more. It’s how much he loves us that he’s interested in – and he ain’t gonna love and cherish a doormat whether that comes in guise of wife or mistress. And neither would we. There’s a whole lot of difference between ‘love’ and ‘need’. In a fair world the cheating MM would end up with neither the wife nor the OW; both would dump him … but usually the wife is so gobsmacked to discover her marriage, unbeknown to her, was on the rocks that she is simply relieved that he’s not running off with the OW and so she bends herself all ways to convince him to stay with her… what she fails to see is that he was never going to leave her anyway! If she’d realise that she’d know she actually holds all the cards! Funny, we never seem to see where we really are with these men… the wife thinks he was about to leave her / the OW thinks he was about to leave. Fact is he’s wasn’t ever going anywhere… he never gave any of it that much thought. He was just having a good time while it lasted.
I need to come back to this every now and then when I start drifting off into my own little fantasy world to bring me back to earth with a bump and remind myself what a selfish, egotistical, narcissistic twerp my ex-MM is. Can’t believe I fell for the bullshit, can’t believe he strung me along right to the bitter end when he must have known all along that he could never leave. The only thing keeping me sane right now is the knowledge that I know I can move onto a better life and hopefully healthier relationship. They are stuck in their repressed, dark, emotionless marriage. Good luck to them both.
Hello Natalie,
I know that my comment comes a long time after this post was published, but I read it only recently and it has probably shacked me into a new, and much more healthy, point of view. I don’t know exactly how to thank you for your words and spirits, I can only say that this post (and many other on the subject) helped me a lot (A LOT!).
I was involved for 5 months with a married woman (no kids).
We both live far from home and study in a strange country far from anything we knew. What started as friendship turned very fast into sexual and deep emotional relationship for us both. I knew she’s married but still made the mistake in continuing seeing her (we live at the same dorm house), believing it wont develop into an emotional thing. WRONG !!
What amazed me, and finally made me see her as she really is, was the fact that all along she kept telling me that she loves me (I mean really, crying in my arms about it) and that I reminded her of “how it feels to be loved”, she was on Skype with her husband and kept on talking to him as if nothing was happening. When she was talking to me, she told of how things between them are dead. How there’s no passion for years (they are only 28…), and how it was a mistake to marry him. I was so sad for her, but now I see the arrogance of thinking that I can SAVE her situation.
Eventually, after more than 4 months, I had enough.
Her husband came visiting and she didn’t want me to be around (of course) while he’s there. She was terrified that he’d discover. It felt like she was hiding me under a rug…I was insulted to my gut, but it was a hell of a wake up call.
The thing is that I’m sad.
I felt her, you know? I felt some real sadness in her, and she told me many times that she feels bad for what she was doing to me. She even said she’s a monster, and I thought that her acknowledging this sick situation points to the fact that things will change…Well they didn’t.
So, after seeing that she’s not even thinking about leaving him (she told me that “we have time”), and acknowledging that I’m in love with someone that treats me as a station in his life of “playing double”, I cut.
I went up to her room and said goodbye. It was probably the hardest thing I made in many years. I cried like a kid. For days.
So now It’s over and feel stronger. Thank you for your posts. It helped me A LOT !