Many of you who read Baggage Reclaim have felt this ‘love’ or ‘connection’ with someone that appears to persist in spite of compelling information and experience that communicates that you’d be better off distancing yourself or severing ties. You instead feel perplexed by the very existence of the love or connection or feel compelled to act upon it and try to ‘make something’ out of it. I’ve had various connections and what I thought at the time were ‘love’. When I changed how I felt about me and my habits, these ceased to mean anything. And yet, it was only recently that I realised that there is one still there: my father.
I know that I’m not alone in experiencing conflicting feelings about someone who it feels like we ‘should’ have more decisive feelings for.
It feels like it should be cut and dried. And yet, it might not be. Or it is cut and dried but some feelings still remain, even if it’s hurt.
During a session with my kinesiologist where I explained to her how my father and I haven’t spoken since a few days after the wedding and how we’d had a series of awful run-in’s in the month before that (I asked my stepfather who raised me from when I was 6 to walk me down the aisle and then my father and his family all kicked off and I ended up with both walking me), she said that even if we never meet our parents, there is often an unconditional love that’s there and formed as a baby that can run counter to everything we know and experience.
I have no regrets about them both walking me down the aisle.
I made a wholehearted decision (with my back against the wall…) as ultimately, I was caught between a rock and a hard place. The alternative would have cast a very dark shadow over the day. As it was, in spite of everything that had gone on, we had an amazing day and many guests described it as “the best wedding ever” – yay!
The downside of what happened though is that it seems to have resurrected some ‘old sh*t’. After a hectic summer having lots of fun, it has refused to stay ‘stuffed down’, and I now have to face it all. You know me: it shows up in me physically, and I’ve been dealing with jaw pain which apparently is a build-up of very old tensions.
I also understand why it resurrected ‘old sh*t’: because I experienced a great deal of hurt and made some very painful realisations in that month before our wedding. It’s almost like making these realisations made me need to ‘refold’ and ‘reorganise’ some old hurts.
I’m realigning what I’ve learned these past few months with him and his family and having to make some ‘corrections’ in my life–boundaries.
I think what really ‘knocked’ me about this experience is that realisation that you’ve forgiven someone, given out chances and then realising that they don’t really ‘get it’. And in fact, when you’ve thought that they were sorry and regretful, they sort of were, but they weren’t. Or at least not in any way that truly got reflected in their subsequent actions.
This is the same thing that upsets many people. It’s realising that you’ve made an effort to get past things, to make peace, to let there be a chance, and then the first time you put a foot wrong or you get into a conversation about the past, it becomes evident that you’re on two totally different wavelengths or possibly even different planets.
It hurts to realise that you’re alone with your realisations and they just don’t give a beep.
But then, I’m thankful that my forgiveness was never dependent on him ‘getting it’. What my continued involvement is dependent on, though, is a lack of bullshit. And that’s where we’ve fallen out. It’s because I won’t pretend that the past isn’t what it was and I don’t do the whole keeping up appearances BS.
This got me thinking about, why do we feel a connection with someone who isn’t or hasn’t been around, or who has dipped in and out?
It’s understandable why, as children, we have unconditional love for our parents. But what tends to happen when we do this particularly in romantic relationships, is that we love ourselves conditionally while loving the other person without limits. This isn’t unconditional love; it’s loving without self-esteem and boundaries.
Unconditional love of you is about not making how you feel about you reliant on external factors, with how you feel about you remaining consistent. Hence now, even when things don’t go as I like, how I feel about me doesn’t change, whereas before, I’d screw up and really give myself a hard time and withhold affection from me.
As we move into adulthood and mature in our outlook and emotionally, through our experiences we get to figure out what our own values and boundaries are. And if we’re developing a good relationship with ourselves, we also get to understand which relationships we should stick with and those that we should back away from irrespective of feelings and connection because they may threaten our ability to treat ourselves we love, care, trust, and respect.
Of course, this isn’t going to happen if a lot of your identity is based on your experience, for instance, of being parented by someone who was emotionally and/or physically absent and/or you’re living in the past.
So I’m sitting there, reading people’s comments and with thoughts jumping around in my mind, and it comes to me. “We don’t know these people.” We.don’t.know.these.people.
Yes sometimes we do, but the people I see struggle to let go of a connection the most, are those who the connection is something that’s ‘there’ without a wealth of positive experiences to back it up. It just ‘is’, and we never question it and where it comes from. We might just fanny away a lifetime though trying to get them to live up to the connection or trying to get others to fill the void.
I don’t know him. Just because we have a ‘connection’ doesn’t mean that it has to keep meaning something big. I’ve got better things to do with my time than to keep chasing pavements.
My memories are of playing with Sticklebricks while sitting in his lap when I was about 2, being collected for visits, and waiting around a lot for him to show up or to finish hanging out with his mates. From about 6/7 onwards there’s a ‘gap’. I’ve had a relationship with him for ten years now, and I suddenly realised, I don’t know a great deal about him. I just went back into his life and we mostly carried on as if he hadn’t flaked out on us for most of our lives. In fact, I don’t know a great deal about most of his family. It’s all old memories.
It’s living in the past.
It reminds me of when I’d have these ambiguous relationships where we’d meet up after weeks or months of not seeing each other and not mention the big white elephant in the room. It’s being scared of scaring them off, or being scared of what you might hear.
Letting go/breaking up is hard to do, but when you keep chasing this ‘connection’ you think that you have or this ‘love’, it takes you away from doing better by you. I’ll choose me every time over someone who my involvement would cause me to change how I feel about me.
The ‘connection’ only has the meaning that you assign to it.
If your meanings have to have actions, words, consistent experiences, etc., to back it up, a ‘connection’ or even a feeling of love for someone where these things aren’t happening can’t mean too much.
I have to face my hurt because my cupboard of ‘old shit’ is full, so I’ll tidy up, refold, clear what I can and keep enjoying my life and being me. You learn to live with this kind of disappointment; I’ve been doing it for most of my life. I used to live with it badly. Thankfully, I now live with it well (except for the past two weeks).
I cannot wish for what wasn’t; I can only appreciate what is. And this has a lot more value for me than anything I may think I’ve missed out on. I hope that you can do the same.
This makes so much sense. My dad bailed, didnt bother, then died before I had the chance to find out what his problem was. He was a perfect dad to his other kids, not interested in me. That stuff eats at you – for a long time this guy I didnt know commanded to much head space. Long before he died I realised that this wasnt my problem, it was his problem, and all I ever wanted from him was to feel some kind of fantasy that he actually did give a shit. But he didn’t. Ever. Not even pretended too. Once I realised that I was my problem – things became easier, and actually, it didn’t matter anymore. I moved on. When he died, I was sorry for the situation, but there was no hurt or grieving going on – I mean, I didnt know him at all.
Yabbering on now… will stfu!
Hope your jaw gets better soon, we need chinwags! xx
Lia
on 29/09/2012 at 12:51 am
“When he died, I was sorry for the situation, but there was no hurt or grieving going on – I mean, I didnt know him at all.”
Hmmm, this sounds oddly close to what I told my mother (who I think feels guilty about picking him to have kids with). My father is still alive, but has never made a consistent effort to get to know me. I was told that I should reach out to him. I said that there was nothing to really save, I don’t know him and he doesn’t know me. It’s unfortunate but hey, that wasn’t really my doing. As the guilt trip continued, I was asked how I would feel if I got a call saying that he had passed. A hard question to answer since none of us truly know how we will feel when any family member passes, but I digress. I said something pretty close to what you said, I would think how unfortunate is was that we never had a father daughter relationship and that we never knew each other. But when there is nothing to restore, how can you feel as though you’ve lost something?
That’s right Lia…. we dont know how we will act. I certainly didn’t, but now I dont feel like I have missed anything. I did go to his funeral, but as I sat in the car looking at all the people who were there, I realised I knew no-one, and no-one would know me – his daughter. I didn’t need to hear what a wonderful man he was, what a great father etc, because to me, that was bollocks. So instead, I didn’t even bother getting out the car. I drove off, but felt better for actually going and deciding not to go, if that makes sense.
B
on 29/09/2012 at 12:46 am
‘I cannot wish for what wasn’t. I can only appreciate what is ….’
I finally broke down with these words. I knew that whilst I have been much better since the relationship with a deceitful man endend (and I started reading this blog site), I have found it very hard to let go of the anger. It doesn’t consume me as much as before, but there are still days when I think about what he did, and what could possibly be the reasons why.
Though I am not chasing him … I seem to continue to chase after connections. By this I mean backtracking and trying to understand and establish the connections, where none may actually have existed. I’m not only ‘chasing pavements’, but worse, I running backwards, and living in the past …. WHEN there is a whole future right ahead of me, and ‘me’ which I need to work on.
I’m scared that pain may have become my comfort zone, if that is possible. Or worse fear … I fear to take bigger steps and taking chances because I might fail, or things might cause me to fail, like I did in the relationship. It’s a bizarre idea, illogical even BUT the feeling just won’t disappear.
simple pleasures
on 29/09/2012 at 12:48 am
Dear Natalie,
I have followed your blog since Jan. Two months after the parting of my math professor and me.
I have tried to read every post and response from your archives. (When I
get up each day I ask myself, I wonder how my friends runnergirl,grace, yoghurt etc are today).
I think a common thread for our BR community is that we loved someone, and they baffled us with their behavior. And commonly we ask why on earth did we love them? We research all the abnormal psychology personality disorders (I could have my PHD in narcissism and aspberger’s now). And yet I think the underlying reason why we are so enamored of the one we loved is almost Shakespearean. It all comes down to our parents.
Bottom line we want to please our father’s and have their unconditional approval. I loved my math professor in my 20’s and then again recently, not so much because he was a great guy (not) but because I projected my need for his validation as my father figure. I think those of us who have the longest and most painful time processing the rejection/loss/emotional unavailability of a man we invested in, trusted, were optimistic that out affection and good nature would lead to a loving relationship but
instead lead to disappointment need to see it was him, not us. We hotly pursued a father figure, not a truly capable partner.
runnergirl
on 29/09/2012 at 6:12 am
Hi Simple Pleasures,
Runnergirl here, thank you for thinking of me as a friend. Natalie has created such an amazing site where we can connect. I look forward to the comments by Grace and Yogurt too. Fearless and Learner are amazing as well. Too many amazing women to name. I agree, our parents, both mothers and fathers influence our adult relationships. Natalie is spot on for me when it comes to cleaning out the cupboard, re-folding, and re-organizing.
So this really happened last week. I came home from class, my daughter was home and I said as usual “hi sweetie”. Her response: “Mom there is a situation upstairs”. I froze in my tracks in the laundry room. A situation upstairs! Dear lord, thought I. Turns out my 23 yro daughter decided to deep, very deeply clean her rooms, including more laundry than any laundromat has ever seen. I’m not sure what this means. She is in high gear re-organizing her cupboards. Mostly all I can do is stay out of her way. I volunteered to help and she finally accepted my help as the sweat was pouring down her brow. Now the living room is covered with her clothes, clean and folded. I have no idea how all the clothes are going to get upstairs! It doesn’t matter. I’m just loving her and the moment. She’s cleaning her cupboards. Soon she’ll be gone and some guy will be wondering how all those clothes will get upstairs. Give your kids a giant hug. XXOO
Learner
on 29/09/2012 at 6:24 pm
simple pleaures,
“Bottom line we want to please our fathers and have their unconditional approval.” Yes, I am right there with you, and many others on BR. I agree it’s wonderful to check in here to see what our BR friends have written. It really does help with recovery.
runnergirl
Thank you so much for the mention. It brought a tear to my eye (and btw, I am with you re: the PMS *plus* the “PMP”, i.e., perimenopause stuff which makes tears come so easily and is not fair!) Sometimes I *still* feel like a slow learner, and like what I say makes no sense, but am so encouraged by the support of you and others on BR. For this post of Natalie’s, I think I need to let it steep in my brain for a day or two. There are a lot of “deep” ideas there that are hitting close to home for me, and I will be seeing my father later on today, so hoping that will go well.
I love the story of your daughter getting organized! Can she come over and clean up my daughter’s room next? Kidding, but it’s a lovely thought 🙂
Gina
on 30/09/2012 at 1:21 am
Simplepleasures,
“I think those of us who have the longest and most painful time processing the rejection/loss/emotional unavailability of a man we invested in, trusted, were optimistic that out affection and good nature would lead to a loving relationship but
instead lead to disappointment need to see it was him, not us. We hotly pursued a father figure, not a truly capable partner.”
You just hit the nail on the head girl! Thank you!
selkie
on 29/09/2012 at 1:25 am
AH, I can relate to this one. I haven’t spoken to my Dad in probably 15 years. He was very cold and just didn’t care about the damage he was inflicting on his family. (liar, cheater, con man {for real} , emotionally abusive, neglectful) I believe he knew, but just did not care. My parents had very traumatic fights (broken windows, knives thrown, guns pulled out, screaming, crying )in front of my brother and me, then followed by silence for days and days. People who knew him would say what a great guy he was ( con man! ). We lived in a secret hell. When I was 17, I finally told him I knew how ugly he was under his veneer. Telling me I was crazy wasn’t going to work, and he got it right away. It took him no time to forget I even existed. I sent cards for a few years, etc but never got a response. When my Mom and I moved out and away from him during my senior year i high school (not on speaking terms), he let our family dog and horses starve to death. We didn’t know until later and that alone weighs on me more heavy than losing my relationship with my Dad. to this day it makes me sick inside. That is just one example of the coldness he was capable of. I knew there was no resolution here, no fixing, no remorse, no working it out and no recognition of the hurt he caused. He was a narcissist ( a sociopath too?), a true one. Text book. I let it go, and just moved on with my life. I serve as a reminder of the ugliness that resides inside him, and I don’t think he can bear to look at me, because that would mean facing himself. It sucks I really don’t have a Dad anymore, but it is a lot less painful this way. My job today is to be mindful of the emotional scars from him I may carry into my relationships today….one being fear of abandonment.
I don’t want to sound like an emotional downer. This is one aspect of my life I feel like I did right by me. My brother still tries to have a relationship with my Dad and he ends up disappointed over and over.
dancingqueen
on 29/09/2012 at 1:58 pm
Oh my gosh Selkie how awful…the pets. How horrible for you. How truly horrible.
He should have gone to jail for that; how could someone do that to poor animals?
You are absolutely right to not want to have anything to do with ca coldblooded killer.
((Hugs))
Lilia
on 29/09/2012 at 9:14 pm
Selkie that is terrible… and I´m so sorry about the pets.
I just remembered something with my own EUM and con man (or almost, long story) father. When my mom was very sick, with very little posibilities of recovery, he left her for someone else and me too. (Notice I was about to become an orphan from mother.)
Anyway, things didn´t work out with the OW and he went to live alone. I did my best to reestablish some kind of relationship with him.
I found an abandoned kitten in the street and asked him if he could keep it. He said yes! Now visiting him was so much fun because there was this sweet little kittie, named Letizia, waiting for me!
But about a week later he had given the kitten away. Just like that, without even telling me.
I was seeing a therapist at the time. I told her I was thinking about giving my father a turtle instead, maybe he wouldn´t mind keeping a pet like that for me, it could just live in the garden and wouldn´t bother anyone.
Her interpretation was as follows: I had given my father a little girl (the kitten) to take care of, but he renounced that responsibility.
So, I was figuring how this little girl should behave to maintain a father for her. A turtle doesn´t make much noise, doesn´t bother anyone.
It is like an accomodating daughter, someone who doesn´t ask for much. I was turning myself into a fallback girl to get some of his crumbs.
Isn´t it sad, how we become self- choppers? I´m so glad you´ve been able to move on, Selkie. But I can imagine the terrible scars the experience with your dad left you, I´m with you.
JR
on 29/09/2012 at 9:21 pm
Oh Selkie…hugs to you my dear. I am so very sorry that you and your family and pets had to endure this man. Keep doing the work and the recognizing of how this may affect your relationships. The man I am seeing had a father who was capable of what you describe and had many issues — the man I am dating said “sorry” to me about his back story. I told him it was never his fault. Like being born into people who are poor or rich or French or American, we can’t help what we are born into. It’s not our fault. BUT we can choose LIFE, live on and break their horrible cycle. You are doing brave things and learning how to break that cycle. HUGS
selkie
on 30/09/2012 at 3:23 am
Thanks all. Yes Lilia, we learned at an early age to become ‘less trouble and not a bother’ to try and squeeze out some love. It’s obvious sometimes why we have issues in our relationships as adults when our parents either sculpted us into dysfunction or neglected us into unhealthy longing and insecurity. The flip side, we get to decide what choices to make as adults. We have to relearn and teach ourselves what it means to be whole and happy. It’s no easy task, but it is possible with dedication to oneself. The parent thing is hard, it was our model in most cases to emulate. We didn’t didn’t get to choose as a child and didn’t know any different….but we do now. When people ask why I no longer speak to my Dad, it’s a hard question to answer really. He’s an ass? He was a bad Dad doesn’t come close. I’m so far removed from it now, people seem perplexed by my lack of emotion in my answer. It’s more reflected in the private tearing down and rebuilding of myself I’m in the middle of.
Gina
on 30/09/2012 at 1:18 am
Sending you a great big cyber hug Selkie!!! I am SO sorry that you had to endure such horrible treatment when you were growing up! Your dad was definitely a sociopath. Good on you for cutting ties with him!!! I, too, grew up with a violent and abusive dad. He would beat my mom and his girlfriends (who would intervene to keep him from beating me) mercilessly. When I turned 17, he finally left us alone. I remember hitting him with a broom when I was in my early 20s. It was revenge for the awful way in which he treated me and my mom when I was growing up. By then he was physically broken down from years of drinking and a mere shell of the man that he used to be. After I hit him, I felt absolutely HORRIBLE! He just stood there looking old and pathetic. When I realized that I had stooped to his level, I stopped and walked away. That was a sad and shameful day in my life. Both he and my mom are dead now (she was verbally and emotionally abusive). I made peace with them a long time ago… now I just try to live the best life that I can, and to be the best person that I can. Through counseling I learned that I look for the love I did not receive from my dad in EUM. Older and wiser, I am working hard on breaking that pattern. And by the grace of god I will succeed.
selkie
on 01/10/2012 at 2:37 am
Gina, I’m with you on working hard on breaking the pattern of ‘looking for love in all the wrong places’. We will succeed, however now that we know we do that. Before, I didn’t even get it. BR opened my eyes to it. We can’t stay victims forever, and why would we want to, it’s not a happy place. So sorry your Dad subjected you to abuse, and your Mom too. I have a son and the last thing I would EVER want to do is hurt him in any way. It baffles me when parents hurt their kids.
Lady Lisa
on 29/09/2012 at 1:53 am
Natalie, Natalie, Natalie…damn again! Standing ovation for this post. What cut like a knife and echoed my own realization was, “We. Don’t. KNOW. These. People”. Jackpot. It’s sad to say that I’ve had this very thought with most of my intimate relationships: I never knew who they really were. I didn’t know what made them click. I didn’t know what moved them. I didn’t know how they felt about me. I knew very little to nothing. This was also the case with my father. My father was /is an EUM. He wasn’t there for me or my brother. He abandoned us and blamed my mother (and us) for his absence. Saying that my mom didn’t want him around. Or that we (the kids) never called HIM so he just didn’t bother. He’s never wanted to take ANY responsibility for his actions. He lives in complete denial covered in self righteousness and lies. “I’m the father, you need to call me!” My goodness.
I also made two attempts to bury the hatchet and forge a relationship with him. First time was when he lost his mother and sister a year from each other. I had moved back east from attending grad school on the west coast and called him two months after I had been situated. He immediately went into victim mode and started turning the tables on me about why I hadn’t called him…that he thought I didn’t love him. Once I threw reality in his face he shut up about it, but continued to act like HE was the one that was wronged. To make a long story short, I ended the relationship after I realized I was going to have to pretend like everything was fine. After I had to act like he was a loving father around his family (who knew the truth but never wanted to talk about). I just couldn’t do it. He hadn’t changed. He was still the same selfish man that I remembered as a teenager. It was always about him…and I was expected to carry the burden of the truth on my shoulders. Never putting it down. Never releasing it. What about my feelings? What about me? To conclude, I broke the silence again earlier this year after talking to a cousin who felt that the past should remain the past. My father wasn’t getting any younger and I didn’t want to have any regrets, right? As per his usual, he started the guilt trips, playing the victim and putting the blame on me for our lack of communication. As per my usual, I introduced reality back into the conversation but pretended to fall back in step with the “let’s pretend like nothing happened” charade. We had a few conversations that ended with him telling me how much he loved me and cared for though his actions have never mirrored his sentiments. I’d say I loved him too and could feel my gut turn.I felt no love for him. I was disgusted, angry, full of resentment and bruised for never being able to say to him that he hurt me…deeply. I was being a fraud. Denying myself. Being a good little girl. After making the decision to visit him at our cousins house (didn’t offer to come get me or drive me home because he hadn’t figured out his GPS) I realized that he could only be with me if other people were present…he didn’t want to be alone with me. When I inquired about him coming to see me, he just had more excuses. I had to draw the line again when he said he would come support me by attending one of my performances and he never showed up. Hasn’t called me since and that was two months ago. And I wonder why I have so many issues with men. I’ve been dating my father all my life.
Lady Lisa
on 29/09/2012 at 2:00 am
Apologies for the typos:-)
Paula
on 29/09/2012 at 2:00 am
Wise girl if there’s any. Thank God for you 🙂
dancingqueen
on 29/09/2012 at 2:01 am
Firstly thanks to phoenixrising, tinkerbell and araphe (sp?) for responding to my comments and concerns 2 posts ago; just got your feedback ladies, this work week has been brutal lol but it was much appreciated though read too late.
Wow, re; this, what a lovely post in a sad but hopeful way. This paragraph pretty much succinctly summed up my entire 46 year relationship with my “dad” if one can call him that.
“I think what really ‘knocked’ me about this experience is that realisation that you’ve forgiven someone, given out chances and then realising that they don’t really ‘get it’ and in fact, when you’ve thought that they were sorry and regretful, they sort of were, but they weren’t, or at least not in any way that truly got reflected into their subsequent actions.
This is the same thing that upsets many people – realising that you’ve made an effort to get past things, to make peace, to let there be a chance, and then the first time you put a foot wrong or you get into a conversation about the past, it becomes evident that you’re on two totally different wavelengths or possibly even different planets.It hurts to realise that you’re alone with your realisations and they just don’t give a beep.”
Yes it does hurt and it also makes me realize why it bothers me so, to have shallow relationships with men who I date after the initial getting-to-know-you period. I have had that with my dad my whole life and I just don’t have time for any more shallow men in my life. At. All.
More to the point, the not- knowing-them comment was accurate yet v upsetting; no I don’t know him, I never will, he does not know himself, there very well might be nothing to know…I don’t think that there probably is in fact. and what is both worse and better is I don’t care anymore to know him; the last visit home was the “suck it and see” and I don’t need to see anymore even.
It is funny; the last few weeks I found out some unknown truths about my last relationship and it would have hurt me deeply a while back but now it just…I don’t know if I am hardened, mature, whatever, but I honestly hurt for a day or two and now, I just am back in my groove and to be honest I don’t even feel like I want a relationship right now; if it happens, it happens, but I feel really happy right now, with my cats, my freinds, my job, my house, and my little dance classes and hobbies and such.
So on to make a little pasta (still stocking up pics for my food blog idea) and a bath and then a book after BR; the perfect Friday decompression night
Good night y’all:) Sweet dreams!
Magnolia
on 29/09/2012 at 2:03 am
Natalie, this post means a lot to me – thank you. A lot of the work around figuring out why we end up with ACs, and the work once we dump them and focus on ourselves, has to do with these core relationships – some of which don’t leave our lives even when we boot the ACs.
It’s helpful to see that someone who has enjoyed and earned the relationship success that you have still has to live day-to-day and still has to figure out what hurts if something hurts.
I’m at a conference right now in the US where I am meeting, for the first time, many of the people whose work I have been reading and citing for years. I have gone up to and introduced myself to a number of ‘bigwigs’ and some of the people I thought would be receptive have been … I dunno … well, I’m not feeling the vibe. One woman excused herself from a meeting with me and when she left I felt the call of the old path of “living with it badly”: telling myself I embarrassed myself, that I came off like an idiot, and facing the prospect of enduring the rest of the weekend here at the conference like that.
Instead, I “lived with it well”: I said to myself, hmm, that didn’t go the way I’d hoped. Let’s not assume I did anything to cause what feels like her rejection of me; let’s just be like, oh well, what now? and move on. I’ve been moving about this highly-charged networky gladhanding space with a mantra of “if it feels like crap to talk to them, it’s not worth it and not a good fit” and “someone else’s behaviour is not a reason to feel like crap for a moment past leaving their company”. This has helped me to not go into “I must win them over” mode with the people who have been cliquey. Like I wrote a little while ago – I want to do this networking thing differently.
And all of that has made this conference quite successful so far, I think. I’m presenting my big idea of my 5-year dissertation work to some of the most important figures in my field tomorrow and I know I’ll do okay. I can’t afford to not feel consistently alright about me.
I see myself, while here, as a writer, sure, but also as the girl who wants to be heard, a girl who always had to argue and fight for attention from her father, and who could idealize this moment, and all these people.I.don’t.know as the ones who will finally validate me.
In some ways, these moments and what I accomplish personally by being here are too important to me to allow feeling good about me to depend on the reactions of people I don’t even know.
It might not be a perfect fit in terms of topic, Natalie, but I take a lot of inspiration *right now* from your post. Thanks!
Revolution
on 29/09/2012 at 3:53 am
Magnolia,
If you’re on either coast of the US, just be reminded that most people you meet are going to be self-involved a-holes. It’s not you. It’s a culture-shock to a lot of outsiders, but we here on the coast States are used to it. How sad. But don’t take it personally.
Revolution
on 29/09/2012 at 3:55 am
Sure, maybe that sounded a bit harsh (and blanket statements are never fair, of course), but you commenters in the US coastal States….you know what I’m sayin’.
Magnolia
on 30/09/2012 at 8:12 am
Thanks for the tip, Revolution. It has actually been pretty awesome. I got a bit swept up today, trying to impress the older established folks. Now I’m back in the hotel room and, reviewing, I think it all went fine. I met some good people and folks came up to me after my talk, so I’m glad I came.
Revolution
on 30/09/2012 at 4:49 pm
I’m glad, Magnolia. Yes, there are good and bad everywhere, huh? I think it was just my overly-pessimistic PMS persona talking, lol. Pay me no mind. 🙂 Glad it worked out.
Kelli
on 29/09/2012 at 1:06 am
Natalie,
GREAT post.
If I may, I’d like to add to this. I prefer to “label” toxic others as pathological (narcissists, sociopaths, psychopaths) as that is the work I do in supporting survivors of said disorders.
One of the biggest epiphanies I’ve had this last week, has been about empathy. We think we have connections, we see “love” that isn’t there, even with our pathological parents. Empathy is as natural to us as BREATHING. A lack of it out of toxic others, ie: their BULLSHIT, is equal to our empathy: like breathing.
It isn’t toxic people that complicate things. It’s us. It’s giving benefit of the doubt with our empathy to others who are not deserving of it. Including those who have abused us in the past, including PARENTS. They are what they are, they do what the do, they will NEVER change, it’s WE who do all the changing, accommodating, fantasizing, doing mental gymnastics and putting ourselves into pretzel position to make it look like anything other than what has been, is and does: Abuse and bullshit. When we become AWARE we cannot take it back. When we try to adjust to THEIR abuse or disorder or bullshit,our empathy becomes a curse, not a blessing. We give it FREELY to those who do not, won’t and don’t care to change, but don’t give it to ourselves. This is why there are so many victims. Why we continue to victimize ourselves. Those who are abusive or are disordered have to do nothing, we do it all FOR THEM.
Letting go hurts, but not doing so creates an anxious RESISTANCE to truth and awareness. All for a “love” that is absent and has been. I hope you continue to find healing about your father. I have been NC with my FOO for 3 years now. Best thing I ever did in showing empathy and love to MYSELF. Blessings!
Gina
on 30/09/2012 at 2:32 am
AMEN Kelli! AMEN! The hardest thing for me is learning to give the love and empathy back to myself instead of bestowing it upon others who could care less. I do not think that I will be able to find a truly fulfilling and rewarding relationship until I actually put this into practice.
Fearless
on 29/09/2012 at 2:14 am
Very intuitive and heartfelt post, Natalie. I often wonder if my daughter experiences the same feelings about her absent father (who never/rarely bothered his shirt with her… it’s a long story – yawn – and yet there’s nothing to tell, kind of thing). Funny how I hear that he sings my praises as a mother and is as proud as punch of his now grown (very beautiful and lovely) daughter. sheesh. Funny thing is that now she’s a lovely young woman he has tried to pay her more attention – she scorns it (not to his face but he can’t fail to notice her lack of interest in his feeble attempts to connect with her! She has said that he has a nerve!).
I have always told her that she is wonderful, that it’s not about her; that it’s his failing, not hers and that while she got a short straw (which I take the blame for) there are many children who pulled a shorter one – that many children are utterly abandoned, without family at all and denied the love and care of both parents. She gets that. Thankfully. I know she thinks she’s had a good mother, and she likes that. But I never really discuss(ed) her father with her; I guess I never wanted to point out to her things she might feel that she actually isn’t feeling – why tell her how crap she should feel.
My father was “there”. a good provider for the family but he was a barrel load of trouble and strife. Drinker. Terrible temper. Insecure man. We walked on egg-shells. I went through periods of hating him. But in my later adult life I just accepted him for who he was (and he mellowed a lot). It just is. They just are. It’s not us. We don’t need to be loved by everyone. Dare I say it, not even by our own father. Nice if you can get it, tho. Not the end of the world if you don’t. We can harbour our resentments or we can just accept that some people are badly wanting and those people are fathers (and mothers) too. When I accepted my dad’s humanity, with all it’s flaws (and he had more than his fair share!) I learned to stop looking back at the past hurt he caused me. It just was. I’m big enough to handle it. So are you. I hope so too is my own daughter. I believe she is.
runnergirl
on 30/09/2012 at 6:53 am
Fearless, your daughter has the very best mother and I’ll bet dimes to donuts she knows that. My daughter has always been close to her father, despite the fact he failed to support her financially. I don’t know what effect that will have down the road. Yup, he sings my praises too (and he damn well should) and he is so proud of her. I think I’ve finally moved into acceptance with regards to my father’s flaws. It just was. Nicely stated. Give your beautiful daughter a big squeezy hug.
Fearless
on 29/09/2012 at 2:38 am
Another thought: I think much of the angst you speak about is based on indecision about where exactly to put this kind of stuff. As with the ‘connection’ we feel with those we barely know – we are ‘in’ then we’re ‘out’. We are either trying to re-connect or we’re ‘done with it’ in cycles. The mind never settled. We vacillate, we jump about from wanting to not wanting to not wanting to want. We can never settle on one single mind-set about it, so it causes us to feel all betwixt and between, disturbed, unsettled. this was me with the EUM. My internal vacillation went on for years. During a difficult period of NC when I was feeling ill with the angst of it all, desperate to re-connect with him and desperate not to, two words you said hit right home for me: learn acceptance. Arrive at the one place about these men, whoever they are, and live there. That’s been a good lesson in life for me when I adopt that position – it settles the mind (and that’s a wonderful thing).
Revolution
on 29/09/2012 at 3:57 am
Truer words have never been spoken, Fearless. You’ve strucken me momentarily speechless (which, even momentarily, that’s a feat).
fairy134
on 29/09/2012 at 5:20 am
I love a person who is emotionally unavailable. It is not a healthy thing to do for me! It has been 5.5 years and no commitment from him. So 2 days ago I told him that he is selfish to continue to be in my life knowing that I want more but knowing he cannot totally commit. I have not heard from him since then!!! Silence says it all. This time I want to get over it. I wanted to text to ask him if he was ok, but then I realised that he hasn’t asked how I am. No contact is difficult after spending so much time together but it is the right thing to do?? x
Magnolia
on 30/09/2012 at 8:16 am
Fairy, 2 days is a short time after 5 1/2 years. He may show up again, wanting to press the reset button, or he may not.
It’s about what YOU decide is right – if you’ve decided you’re finished with this relationship, then there is no need to follow up with him, and you might give some thought to how to stick to your decision if he comes back around.
Laurie
on 29/09/2012 at 7:15 pm
Thanks for that Fearless. I think you’re right. Acceptance as the last stage of the grieving process is typically the most difficult. What did you do to get through that? Journal? Did you make a list of sorts? Was it good old-fashioned will-power?
Fearless
on 29/09/2012 at 8:17 pm
Laurie,
no, I didn’t journal (I’m a bit lazy about these things and they make me feel a bit silly – but it’s not silly; if it helps do it!). I did write out my boundaries – and got a shock at what I was actually putting up with. I think I just wore myself out with it all; I came to realise that I really had to take better care of my emotional health, to look to what was good for me, and the ex EUM, and thinking about it all, and trying to figure it out was very bad for my emotional health and not good for me. Eventually, and with reading Nat’s blogs by the barrow load, I came to think that there is no answer – it’s not a puzzle, it just is. He is just is who he is. The answer doesn’t lie with these men or what they do or don’t do; they are not that complicated! They are up their own arses. They are clueless. And that’s all it is. Take them or leave them, but take them or leave them for the clueless, self-involved people they are and get on with making the best of your own life, not because of them but despite them. Count your blessings (not your curses)sounds trite, but that’s the way forward.
Laurie
on 30/09/2012 at 4:31 pm
Thanks, Fearless. It makes sense and goes along with a comment from grace about skydiving and “just doing it”. It’s funny, because it reminds me of the first time I went bungee jumping. I was so excited to do it, but when I climbed up to the platform I panicked. I actually act the attendant if he would push me (!) because I didn’t think I could do it –everything in my body was fighting it. Of course he didn’t push me, and I just had to have faith and jump.
“I came to think that there is no answer – it’s not a puzzle, it just is. He is just is who he is. The answer doesn’t lie with these men or what they do or don’t do; they are not that complicated! They are up their own arses. They are clueless. And that’s all it is.”
Brilliant. Thank you. Now’s the time to jump 🙂
oc
on 29/09/2012 at 2:46 am
I like how you went Buddha at the end of this one Natalie. :). It is what it is! Sometimes people just suck and you can’t polish a turd…. Great reading, thank you.
selkie
on 29/09/2012 at 4:13 am
OC, I just laughed out loud at what you said! We know because we’ve all tried! That’s a great image for me to conjure up when I think of any of my jerk ex’s ….a turd I tried to polish. Call it Revulsion therapy!
oc
on 29/09/2012 at 2:49 am
Also, I just have to say, Kelli you are a bad ass with your analysis in the previous comment. Clear as a bell and spot on! Happy weekend.
Crazybaby
on 29/09/2012 at 2:55 am
Ohhhhh another on point post! Particularly “…isn’t actually unconditional love; it’s loving without self-esteem and boundaries”. It’s funny how I can feel such intense love for a man who has limited interest in me, yet I struggle to even like my mother who was so unloving, critical, and occasionally violent in my childhood. Maybe I am just trying to ‘win’ affection from him to ‘prove’ I can make someone love me, where I ‘failed’ with my mother.
My mother’s attitude in my adult life is that of being annoyed with me for not giving her love and attention, like she is the child and I am the parent. It is very hard to give love to someone who demands it, and constantly feels you are disappointing them. The truth is I no longer feel anything for her, which I feel guilty about. The older a parent gets, the more you feel you should make allowances for them, but that contradicts the already shaky self esteem boundaries you have. Her critical ways used to cut me to the quick. Now they make me angry, and I choose to spend less and less time with her, which makes her more upset and critical.
The crux of the matter when you haven’t formed a close emotional bond with a parent is neither of you actually know eachother at all, so all your expectations are based on what that relationship *should* be like, rather than how it *is*. Sadly the same applies when you love an EUM, except you do know them better, and you’ve had happy times with them.
With an EUM you can choose to walk away, but with a parent you feel obliged to try and ‘fix’ it, but all your efforts are unappreciated. I feel far less vulnerable opening my heart to a man who doesn’t love me, than to my mother. I wish I knew how to make *me* feel better about it without severing ties or tolerating her negativity towards me.
Congratulations on your wedding BTW!
susan
on 29/09/2012 at 3:09 am
Isn’t it a shame that so many of our fathers let us down, as we were growing into women who needed to know they loved us, and when they didn’t, all our male relationships went in the shitter. Sigh.
Magnolia
on 30/09/2012 at 8:25 am
Susan, your comment reminded me of something that happened in my class the other day. I teach creative writing and one student wrote a quite affecting piece about the affection her often-absent father would show her when she was a child, but how on the day she left for university, he went off to work without even acknowledging that she would be leaving home that day.
We were talking about the writer’s choices in laying out her story, when another young woman put up her hand and said, this isn’t a big deal, it’s not about loss, it’s just fathers and daughters, this is just a normal father-daughter relationship. As if she was a bit annoyed everyone was making the writer’s story into sentimental claptrap.
It wasn’t the time or place to go all BR on her, but I did have to say, “that’s an interesting point, and makes sense if we are of the opinion that normal father-daughter relationships involve distance and unresponsiveness.” She shrugged, as if to say, duh.
I felt bad for her that she just assumed letting daughters down is what dads do. Even if it fit my own experience!
Tinkerbell
on 29/09/2012 at 2:47 am
Thank you dancingqueen. Keep strong.
dancingqueen
on 29/09/2012 at 11:19 pm
You too Tinkerbell:) We are stronger every day. Congrats on de-onlining yourself:)!
XFBwoman
on 29/09/2012 at 3:52 am
Beautiful, Natalie, and I can so relate. Daddy issues, I think, are a common thread for many of us women here. .. and fathers were the source of much pain in the lives of quite a few men that I have known (notably my ex-husband and the last man I was in a relationship with). Thanks for expressing this so well.
Elle
on 29/09/2012 at 4:27 am
Hey Natalie, Big hugs from me, someone who also struggles with similarish father problems. Sometimes it’s just admitting that I have this problem which is the problem – I feel ashamed that it’s so textbook! But my father became ill last week, and summoned me for a visit to the hospital. I took him gifts to make his stay more comfortable and felt genuine caring feelings towards him, but then this deep disconnect too, like I just couldn’t and can’t be all affectionate and caring. I am not sure if I even want to (i.e. it’s not a simple matter of fear of rejection anymore, if it’s ever just been that). This makes me so hard sometimes, and makes it hard to be fully present. I still get angry about all that wasted time and energy I spent fighting with (and for) someone who devalued me, and continues to tell me I am someone he does not find it easy to get along with. I can take it more as an adult now – a matter of incompatibility – but, at times like this when I am asked and expected to be loving and attentive (and, some of this is natural for me), this old stuff emerges. Sometimes I suspect that I have been so long trained to fight/achieve/protect myself that I am never really in that exhale/accept/blissed state, even if I’d like to think I am. These things are contagious/hereditary (not genetically, but environmentally too): my dad, like his dad, for instance, doesn’t want to be known. He likes being in control and elusive.
Magnolia
on 30/09/2012 at 8:27 am
Elle, I feel you on all of this.
Martha Urbiel
on 29/09/2012 at 4:34 am
“you learn to live with this type of disappointment” is a very powerful statement. For years I have been trying to fix the disappointment by wishing to get back together with someone I felt connected to but ultimately wasn’t there. Just the idea that you could choose instead to live with the disappointment instead has a lot of power to help you move forward. You don’t have to fix it, resolve it…it’s not insurmountable, it’s not a stopgap, it’s a disappointment you can live with. Thank you
That Girl
on 29/09/2012 at 11:06 am
Great comment. It reminds me of a story I read about the Dalai Lama being questioned about how he ever got over the feelings of guilt and regret he had towards a situation where a man took his own life as a result of misunderstanding some ‘advice’ he had given him.
He explained that he did not ‘get over’ or ‘forget’ them; they continued to be a part of him, but they no longer had the power to pull him into despair and self-denigration. He learned to live with them, and not try to fix, resolve, take the pain away- but to learn to accept it.
I’ve always loved the story cos it reminds me that we really can’t ‘solve’ everything and be some kind of ‘perfect’ version of ourselves and our lives; but we DO have the power to accept what we are and love ourselves regardless.
Revolution
on 29/09/2012 at 5:13 am
Natalie,
Thank you. This was probably the most profound post of yours that I’ve read, and that’s saying something. I’ve read it a couple of times, and very slowly each time. I can hear your heart in it. And I squirmed all through reading it because of my own.
(A strange aside: I think you and I are months apart in age–I’ll be 35 in late October–so we could have been going through daddy dysfunction at the same time. Weird.:))
Now, for my proper comment. I’ll try to hit the highlights of my own story:
My mom was pregnant with me and had my 5-year brother at the time she left my father for cheating on her. There has always been some gray area as to whether or not he actually WAS cheating, but anyway, OFF my mother went with my brother and I in tow. My mother raised us on her own from then on. My father didn’t see me until I was 6-months old, then not again until I was 6 years old. Since then, my Dad’s been asking me for forgiveness in every way but his actual words. That’s a lot to lay on a 6-year old, who’s never before been judge or jury.
My dad re-married my stepmother (the possible “matahari” in the cheating saga), when I was still in utero. They have been married for almost 35 years. My brother and I had holidays and summer visits with them throughout our childhood, 3 times a year at the most. We were always flown out, never the other way around. Nevertheless, I have always had a positive relationship with my father and my stepmother, though nothing “uncomfortable” has ever, or probably WILL ever, be brought up between us.
So how do I feel about that? Well, what’s done is done. I’m a grown a** woman. I’m not looking for a Dr. Phil moment; I just want peace. I’ve forgiven. HOWEVER…it seems to me that in the past few years, my father, who is almost 70 years old, is pushing for a closer bond with me. He hasn’t done anything outright to ask for it; it’s just his overall “vibe.” I’m not trying to deny him that…but I kinda feel like, “He didn’t put any money in the bank, so how can I give him interest after all these years?” It’s not a matter of me being angry at all–I’m simply commenting on the natural process of things. I can’t give what hasn’t been stirred up in me.
And do you know what? It makes me sad for him. And it makes me sad for me. But Nat, like you said, it is what it is. I can love him in the only way I know how: in fits and starts. Awkwardly. Often badly,with chewed cuticles. I’m just as much afraid of the force of my love for him as I’m afraid that I don’t have ANY love for him. I want to love him more, and I DON’T want to love him more at the same time. None of it makes sense.
Ah, there’s a lot more on this subject, but that’s enough for now. But Natalie, I really DO understand what you’re getting at: this connection with our parents, especially this stop/start, nature/nurture connection that’s at the root of it, is a tricky thing. I’ll have to sit with these thoughts a little more.
grace
on 29/09/2012 at 12:43 pm
Rev
With boundaries intact and for some of us it’s possible to have a closer relationship with these parents. Even if they don’t deserve it. It can be beneficial to us too, it’s not just about meeting their needs.
However, some of us are too vulnerable and/or the parents too toxic for a reconciliation. That’s okay.
Revolution
on 29/09/2012 at 4:11 pm
Thanks, Grace. You’re right. Neither of my parents are toxic, thankfully. I am very grateful for that, and have led a charmed life compared to most. I think I just feel guilty, sometimes, for the absence of feeling I have toward my father. I know that I DO love him on some level, but it’s just hard to get at. Kinda like when you drop something in that godawful crack next to your driver’s seat in the car. Awkward.
Still, this is life, not a game. I’m worried that I won’t “get it” in time, and he’ll die on me before I figure it out. And then I’m angry because I feel like HE should be the one figuring this out, not me. He got us into this mess, after all. Yikes, it’s a clusterf**k. Anyway, thanks again. Free therapy session over. 🙂
dancingqueen
on 29/09/2012 at 2:20 pm
revolution, you nailed it.
“He didn’t put any money in the bank, so how can I give him interest after all these years?”
Yes, there is this idea that old people are innocent and that they deserve “interest”; they don’t, just for being old.
Older EU, AC parents, pardon how this will sound, suck because their very age makes them seem so innocent and one’s rejection of them unfathomable.
My dad shoved me when I was back home and told me to shut up multiple times ( right after I had taken him out to dinner, what an ass no less) and that was par for the course for how he has been my whole life. The difference is, that now everybody can rewrite history that it is due to his dementia…except that he would be verbally abusive and such as a child.
My sister-in-law was chirping on about how great it was to see me when I went to visit them and she can’t wait till next time, I told her that there will not be a next time with him. And her comment was similar to someone’s earlier “What if that was the last time to see him?”
It is, and he shoved and swore at me and was even mean about givig me old molding pics of my mom that he would rather have rotting in a shed than in a frame at my house; whatever. That is just an old mean man, not a dad.
You know this is so cold to say and I would not say it anywhere but here because I know that this community gets it and most won’t judge me for it but frankly….sometimes I wish that he would hurry up and die. Then I could do all the stuff that I am supposed to do to get things in order and not have people expect me to put myself willingly in front of an oncoming train ( for the upteenth time grr)
I reread that and I know how it sounds and I don’t care; it is my truth. I don’t wish death on him, but I wish he would also tell everyone the truth; that he does not love me, nor respect me and that he does not want to see me either. Or at least another truth; that he knows that he was an ass, but he likes to keep the false image going that he has a daughter that turned out all right, who loves him.
okay must go get a coffee now grr stay strong ladies…
Revolution
on 01/10/2012 at 7:20 pm
I head ya, and understand, dancingqueen. I don’t think it sounds bad at all. Don’t know if your dad fits this particular description, but have you ever read the blog “Narcissists Suck” by Anne Valerious? She talks a lot about the old, seemingly nullified narcissists that are supposed to get a “Get Out of Jail Free” card because of their age. The Bible DOES say to honor our parents, but it also says to guard against bad association. I hear ya all around, my dear, and no I don’t think you’re a horrible person for feeling the way you do.
AngelFace
on 29/09/2012 at 5:19 am
Hi Natalie & Ladies, it” me, Diana Angelface.
Another beautiful post, and yes, Me too- a father who blew his happy family to smithereens when I was about 12.
I was so independent that I just lived my own life, but have made the huge mistake in believing men/ people were all Good, and mentally balanced. Because I lived A non-traditional life, I felt that others in the world were capable & good…. A mistake. I married a Japanese man, whom later I found out was in the Yakuza- Japanese mafia, through his mother’s circle of people. He through violent tantrums …nightmare.
I divorced him, moved to Seattle and Loved & lived with a Real psychopath. And of recent, have detached myself from an Un-diagnosed Aspergers, SADIST, Narcissisi, Sexual predator.
Only through my true self with the aid of Natalie’s articles& Love & support, have I managed to stay in No Contact( even though the recent Monster tried to control me by moving onto my street!?!!! He moved Off my street, which has one road & I had to pass his place daily .. He moved 3 weeks ago – cause at age 50 he got his ‘primary’ woman pregnant & they now have a baby….
…. And I wonder if I have created this disgusting experiences due In Part, to my own father who did not do the right things for our Family.
Such is life, but I will Not Lose myself in this or waste another year .
runnergirl
on 29/09/2012 at 5:25 am
Wow Natalie! You definitely re-experienced some incredible childhood trauma issues in relationship to your wedding. That old stuff seems to have a way of resurrecting itself, just like trying to keep the beach ball underwater. Are you sure it was a “downside”? Or was it time, yet again, to refold and reorganize old hurts? Everything you have written on forgiveness has struck home with me. It’s not about them being responsible or even remorseful, regretful for their past actions cos they may never get it. I’m with you totally. However, you nailed it with regards to your continued involvement being based on BS and a denial of the past. Therein lies the core issue for me. You can’t pretend the past isn’t what it was. So yeah. That’s it. The past was what it was. Keep your cupboard tidy Natalie, refold, clear what you can, and keep being you. There are disappointments but then there are other tremendously amazing things like your totally darling, adorable daughters (loved the glasses) and that dreamy hubby with the gorgeous tux and to die for smile! And he treats you with love, respect, and care. Eyes on the prize woman. The prize is YOU!
Tired
on 29/09/2012 at 5:44 am
My mum and dad are brilliant and i often wondererd why i turned out how i did and with the men i have known , several disasters and a twenty yr old marriage. I found a diary fr 1987 and i was chasing blokes at 18 that wetent intersted and that broughte down on tue as i felt nothing had changed. My councillor said what did i think and i said i never matured as ive always run to my mum and dad and they have always helped. Like ove remainef emmotionally a teenager inside. I have ob grown up in some areas ie having my own boys but my epihany was i havent matured with my handling of thouhhts and feelings. My marraige was to a father figure and he admitted to mentaly bullying me as i left and that he respected meore in last two yrs because i stood up for myself , it was here i learnt the doormat behaviour.you ddont see how you carry it across to other aspects of your life until you take a big step back. Now i see it and it very hard to change pattern and the feeling it brings with it ,
Example my toxic friend text me at work to try pick a fight with me she does this when on downer , normally i let it go , the doormat gets panicky and explains , rows back etc , what did i do , said go row with someone eles leave me alone . Id been feeling hood and she pulled me down but i sorted it and picked mysrlf back up.
Then i blew it nxt morn by breaking nc and burninng my hand in fire with ex mm . Im awake now that familir time obsessing again when i should be getting beauty sleep ha ha , but it the same every morning and i agree its like you like the pain its familiar ,comfatable
Tinkerbell hit the nail on the head he a ex mm he was never mine and i look back he never was i had a intense hot period at begining five yrs ago then the remainder till rerun couple of months back , a few texts a week and occasional visit and he used as a fall back girl recently . And to see it in cold hatd facts and not fantasy yep it hurts and what a mug . I got stuck on connection or the false one of we understand each other we make each other laugh no i did for him , and its a crock of crap he has that with god knows howmany others easy replacable.
But i take hope that i see all this clearly now and that i have to face the pain of this that somewhere i had the strength to walk from the husband and i did indeed take a stand and walk from the crockof crapbag , slimeyliar sville and instead of faltering keep walking abd not look back .
Xueyu Ouyang
on 29/09/2012 at 6:20 am
Hi,
it’s my first time to comment after reading this blog for about 2 months…
The problem with a “connection” is, it sometimes only happens INSIDE your head. You feel attached, because you want to feel attached. The other party is EU, but that doesn’t matter. And no matter what the EU person does, you cannot let go. Because you cannot let go, you think, you love this person. And so this connection persists…
Thx Nathalie for your great blog. I keep on reading, it gives me another perspective of my past relationship…
X.
cc
on 30/09/2012 at 6:47 pm
xueyu ouyang-
agreed. and we are completely unaware that what we are really connecting with is an unsolved part of ourselves. its very confusing that it feels external but isn’t, that we experience it through another person and therefore form a connection that is really just a reflection of us, a mirror. and its ironic that in so doing, we are choosing someone who is only capable of giving us the opposite of what we need, that as keenly feeling creatures we are driven by some quirk of human genetics to seek the same bad thing over and over rather than reaching initially for what might actually heal us.
we need the bad experience to stop doing it. it sucks that we’re wired this way. alas. that’s why we have natalie.
Lilly
on 29/09/2012 at 7:00 am
I’m sorry if this isn’t quite on topic, but this post triggered something in me about connection and letting go. After much pain and 3 months NC, I asked the ex MM for a reference, he provided one and then offered his services as an interview coach. Thanks to BR and the support I’ve received here I haven’t taken up his offer, however, have I been guilty of trying to ‘make something‘ of it! Sort of like – “he must be sorry, he regrets his actions, he’s remorseful, he misses me, he feels guilty, he’s been thinking about the baby”. Ha! Pathetic! I’ve come to the realisation that offering to be my ‘coach’ isn’t the same as being regretful or sorry. It isn’t the same as asking me if I’m ok. He has never asked if I’m ok . I lost my precious baby for f…’s sake, and here I am making excuses for him – you know it’s ‘his way’ of saying sorry. Maybe he is, but I’ve decided that I’m not going, as Natalie says “to pretend that the past isn’t what it was” and I will not allow him to gloss over all that has happened. He can crawl back into that black hole he just came out of. I still have a lot of work to do. I still feel a connection, but I’m beginning to let go and I’m taking my baby with me. I’ve said it many times, but this site is my lifeline, thank you.
Tania
on 29/09/2012 at 12:24 pm
I’m beginning to let go and I’m taking my baby with me.
Lilly, that made me cry. God bless you and your little baby’s soul!
dancingqueen
on 29/09/2012 at 2:25 pm
Lily he is a monster, stay strong and away; it makes no sense to approach a monster and that is what he is. Your baby is in your memory and heart; he is safe and he knew your love. That man is toxic. Please please stay away from him Hugs.
JR
on 29/09/2012 at 9:39 pm
Hugs Lilly….big hugs to you and your precious baby. Keep coming here
recoveringloveaddict
on 29/09/2012 at 7:03 am
What a timely article! I recently got out of an emotional affair (using the NCR) and just started doing an inventory on it today. What a surprise it ALL goes back to my father! I saw that my need for love and attention got the (affair) ball rolling and my fear of abandonment (my EU father was an alcoholic and left us when I was a teenager)kept it going. That has been the root of ALL my problems with men. Thanks for sharing your story with us, Natalie!
grace
on 29/09/2012 at 9:02 am
Yess
I’m afraid that when I hear of these connections and soulmates and even love I am highly sceptical. Then when the woman expands on the basis of the connection i want to take them into the fallback girl protection programme.
It will be a few texts. Or a lot of texts. Emails. Phone calls.Some stuff he said. The relationship is x years long. The sex is good, he is charming, he has lots of friends. His wife doesn’t understand him. He gets weepy or guilty. He has issues.He was nice to me in 1984. I think about him a lot. I dream about him. We could have a fantastic relationship (if it was different or if I actually saw him). I can’t let go. I cry a lot. Im on antidepressAnts. No judgement, that’s my previous relationship history.
But It really is not extraordinary to meet someone nice, go out with them a few times a week, make plans in advance, know that they like you, to show That you like them, to share your thoughts and feelings, to not criticise each other, to not want them to be better or different, for intimacy to grow, to be faithful, trust and be trusted, to be kind, to look upon each other with favour and gentleness, to support them in their human weaknesses, to reassure them. And, yes, we are sexually attracted to each other, laugh, and have fun. Less than that is crumbs.
That’s a connection.
thanks nat for sharing your father sorrows. I don’t think it ever does resolve completely but that’s okay. It’s the re-enactment of it in our love lives that is NOT okay.
Carol
on 29/09/2012 at 11:10 pm
“He was nice to me in 1984.”
Thanks for the belly laugh, Grace! I’m so happy I can find the humor in this now. There is hope, ladies.
Sophia
on 29/09/2012 at 9:59 am
I believe that you come to a point in life when you know that it is no longer possible to live in a parent(s)shadow and that in order to blossom you have to come out from under the roles ascribed or adopted. The letting go part is hard and for a time there is a longing for the familar drama and torment. That in my experience passes if you let it. You then begin to give back to yourself the unconditional love that was not given by that parent(s).
This undoing has resulted in changing a number of patterns, habits and relationships in my life all of which has been for the better.
That Girl
on 29/09/2012 at 10:50 am
“The ‘connection’ only has the meaning that you assign to it. ”
“why do we feel a connection with someone who isn’t or hasn’t been around, or who has dipped in and out?”
Aaahh. An amazing post, thank you. Exactly what I needed (but, of course, don’t actually WANT) to hear…chasing a feeling and finding it hard to let go, all based on what exactly? A ‘connection’, with, get this, a guy who lives 1000s of miles away in another country, who I won’t get to see for another year.
I finally came out and said what the eff is going on here, we’re ‘chatting’ all the time and its getting quite personal, there is something going on here, its gone beyond friendly.
He responded that he was also attracted to me, but went on to say ‘its great having you there to talk about ideas with, and as for the relationship stuff, well lets just see what happens when we meet up again.’
I’m kind of kicking myself, cos I know from reading BR what all this means now. It means sure its great having you there for ego strokes, advice, a laugh, and hey I’ll definitely be keeping you as a future option now I know you’d sleep with me (I said as much…ouch). But there’s really nothing there. WAKE UP CALL!
And all this based on a strong ‘connection’ that i felt when i met him on a work thing, that has somehow (!! i.e. with my full and willing participation- ouch again) continued for months.
Feeling very silly right about now and wishing I’d been woman enough to ask those questions way back, to spare me the heartache I knew was coming, and is now here. Letting go is bloody hard work but we have to do it if we are to value ourselves first and foremost and stop chasing that feeling off someone else.
Sarah T
on 29/09/2012 at 11:07 am
One thing I’ve realised recently as I’m having to deal with my issues (at last) is that the connection I feel isn’t to the person per se…they are just the embodiment. My issues revolve around self-esteem, rejection and abandonment and, guess what, I’ve been transferring them from person to person my whole life. No action at all is required with my ex, in fact, to contact him or check up on him just pushes my insecurity buttons more. My issues are mine and mine alone and only I can help myself by addressing them. I’m not avoiding this fact anymore by trying to get love from unlikely sources. I’m learning to give it to myself. Many thanks to Natalie and the shared experiences I read about on BR. I no longer feel like I’m the only one dealing with such lessons.
tulipa
on 29/09/2012 at 11:24 am
I wonder if someone can answer why the other woman hangs on though the whatever he is has told the other woman that he will no longer engage in sex with her she wants to continue to have sex even though she knows about me I am flushing but why do they hang on ?
grace
on 29/09/2012 at 3:43 pm
Tulips
Please don’t go from analysing him to analysing other women. It’s an unknowable circle of hell. Here’s a qei
grace
on 29/09/2012 at 3:46 pm
Oops
Here’s a question, why do you need to know what another woman thinks of someone you flushed?
Still if you need to know just read back through previous posts and comments. We all are or have been that woman.
Don’t get distracted from your life by needing to know what everyone else is thinking.
dancingqueen
on 29/09/2012 at 11:27 pm
“Oops
Here’s a question, why do you need to know what another woman thinks of someone you flushed?”
Okay I just re-realized why “flushing” is so funny; I just had this image of poor Tulipa gazing sadly with a quizzical look into a toilet, thinking about what the turd was thinking…ladies seriously this metaphor, for lack of a better word, really does encapsulate the ironic joke of the bulk of our “love” attachements here…he he
Mymble
on 30/09/2012 at 10:27 pm
Dancingqueen
I’ve had a rubbish day today and that comment cheered me right up!
Why why oh why spend any time pondering the turd’s motivations, mentality, feelings, thoughts, history and future. It needed to begone..et wal-lah! Flush! That’s all that matters!
Tulips
on 30/09/2012 at 1:00 pm
Grace,
I think it relates back to childhood my dad left for the other woman. He had many flings and affairs throughout his short marriage to my mum. Once he left I seldom saw him until one day he went to court and signed his rights and responsibilities away and I didn’t see him again for 20 something years.
Now he was my dad and it was nice and conveinent to blame his other woman he did marry her. Now I should ask my dad but rumour throughout the family was it was her fault she wanted da nice clean slate without caring for someone else’s kids. It took a long time to see my dad made his choices too but I think the kick is he doesn’t regret what he did.
So I try to see the other woman’s point of view and understand their position.
It made it easier to live in lala land I suppose to hold such a grudge against the other woman because home life with my step dad was crap and my dad would be the hero and come and resue me.
It is all very mixed up thinking and it hasn’t been easy to find out about the cheating and I suppose wondering what the other woman is thinking about distracts me from dealing with my own emotion I am afraid of that dark hole I fell into in 2010/11
Thank you Dancing Queen that made me laugh.
cc
on 30/09/2012 at 6:52 pm
dancingqueen-
that’s hysterical.
tulips/a-
here. i can solve it for you. every time you wonder what the OW’s point of view is, just decide that it is the same as the evil bitch of a near-stepmother who somehow managed to snag your dad into abandoning his children. just picture her as cruella de vil on the inside, no matter what she looks like on the outside, and you’ll have your answer.
and you’ll stop wondering. which, grace is right, is exactly what you need to stop doing.
i’m so sorry you were treated that way. now, make sure you don’t treat yourself that way.
dancingqueen
on 01/10/2012 at 4:26 am
excellent advice CC;) glad we could share the giggle all.
Lilia
on 01/10/2012 at 4:59 am
Tulips: I´ve been wondering for ages about the OW that destroyed my marriage when my kids were still little. I just couldn´t imagine taking some small kids´ dad away (they had a hard time when my ex husband left me for her).
Until my daughter, who eventually met her, decided to make a drawing of her. She made a lady with bright red lips, long black hair and horns on both sides of her head, like a devil. Her t-shirt had the following words: “I hate you”.
My daughter had a good laugh when she finished her drawing and well, I got my answer so I don´t bother about it anymore.
Tulipa
on 01/10/2012 at 12:06 pm
Thank you for sharing your story Lilia it sounds like you all got through a very difficult time.
Have to control my thinking that this is not a competition between me and her or that something is wrong with me.
Revolution
on 01/10/2012 at 4:37 pm
HA Lilia! What an expressive little girl you have! 🙂 Give her little fighting spirit a BIG hug for me! 🙂
Victorious
on 29/09/2012 at 11:39 am
Oh Grace I did laugh out loud at this “It will be a few texts. Or a lot of texts. Emails. Phone calls.Some stuff he said. The relationship is x years long. The sex is good, he is charming, he has lots of friends. His wife doesn’t understand him. He gets weepy or guilty. He has issues.He was nice to me in 1984. I think about him a lot. I dream about him. We could have a fantastic relationship (if it was different or if I actually saw him). I can’t let go. I cry a lot. Im on antidepressAnts. No judgement, that’s my previous relationship history.” You missed out “he once bought me a huge bunch of flowers.”
I am still struggling and still thinking about all the What Ifs.
I too had an absent, alcoholic father, and he died right in the middle of my relationshit with ex eum. Ex EuM was fantastically supportive I have to admit, but I was still more anxious about all that was/wasn’t going on between me and EUM than I was about my Dad dying. How sick and sad is that?
dancingqueen
on 29/09/2012 at 11:30 pm
No Victorious it is not really that sick: you were having a more present day equivalent relationship to the one that you had with your dad. He was in the past, the EU was in the present, you were trying to fix the past by dealing with the present that is all…please don’t judge yourself:)
learning
on 29/09/2012 at 12:48 pm
I have no relationship with my parents. After years of digging in and “working” on my relationship with my abusive mother, I realized I was the only one doing the work and decided to give up. After reaching out to have a relationship with my father as an adult and being told “I won’t have anything to do with you until you speak with your mother” I began to realize that my father had as big a part in the abuse that I experienced as my mother. I used to “worship” him as the “good” parent; that went away the day he a) denied that I’d been abused by my mother, and b) suggested that if there was abuse, perhaps I “deserved” it.
After many years, my parents have both made attempts to reconcile with me: My mother “apologized” by writing that she was “sorry you feel that you were abused, but I had no choice because you were a difficult child” and my father has told me that I’ve been “forgiven” and can come home any time I like.
So, as long as I accept that I’m the problem and act like nothing happened, I can go home.
Bullshit.
And yet, this is how I have treated all of my relationships as an adult: Play nice; don’t stand up for yourself; accept the abuse – nay, blame yourself for the abuse because you’re not “good” enough;and eventually lose your marbles because you’re not being true to yourself.
Natalie, the more people you reach with your blog, the better. You may not be able to help everyone, but the more people who enter into healthy relationships, the more children there will be who know what a healthy relationship looks like, and the fewer people there will be who will accept BULLSHIT in their lives.
Until I’ve worked through my own stuff, I’m remaining single. The longer I do it, the happier I am.
Never again will I tolerate an unhealthy relationship in my life, not even the one I have with myself. 🙂
Laurie
on 29/09/2012 at 7:38 pm
Learning,
Oh my gosh. Your story could be my story. Abusive mother, a father I worshiped because he was the *good* parent even though he turned a blind eye to the abuse. My mother told me that she could say (i.e. you’re a piece of shit) and do (duct tape sharp objects to me) anything she wanted to me because “she was my mother.” Not only did I *deserve* what she did, but , *I* was the one who abused her by being “difficult”. I’m so glad you are able to recognize their treatment of you and their lame attempts at reconciliation (no doubt to appease their own conscious) as bullshit. I’m so sorry you had to experience that.
“And yet, this is how I have treated all of my relationships as an adult: Play nice; don’t stand up for yourself; accept the abuse – nay, blame yourself for the abuse because you’re not “good” enough;and eventually lose your marbles because you’re not being true to yourself.”
I know exactly what you’re talking about. I know that as a result of my childhood, I have struggled with being a “blame-absorber”; feeling guilty or responsible for things that really have little to nothing to do with me. Despite my childhood, I know that I am completely responsible for who I am today. I’m working on having a better relationship with myself too. Loving myself, forgiving myself, and fighting not to make other people’s treatment of me indicative of my own self-worth. Thanks for sharing your story. It really is an encouragement to me.
learning
on 29/09/2012 at 10:43 pm
Laurie:
I’m sorry you went through so much pain at the hands of your mother, and that your father allowed it to happen. We don’t get to choose our parents, but we do get to choose anyone else we have in our lives.
I wish you success in building up your relationship with yourself, and that it allows you to choose the right people from now on.
It’s funny: You are clearly a strong person because you have survived so much; yet, we don’t see it in ourselves, and we continue to let other people take advantage of our ability to tolerate crap. I say we use that strength to say ‘NO’.
Fearless
on 29/09/2012 at 9:04 pm
Learner:
“Never again will I tolerate an unhealthy relationship in my life, not even the one I have with myself.”
Well said! Me too. And since I have paid more attention to the relationship, the connection, I have with myself (as opposed to non-connections with stupid EUMs!) I feel so much more contented, at peace with myself and confident about who I am and what I’m worth – and people notice. My boss noticed. He gave me a promoted post last week. Yay.
Funny that. During my epic fantasy connection with ex EUM I practically had a nervous breakdown at the very thought of interviews; I never got the promoted posts I went for – I never believed I was good enough. I do now. I believe in me. Thank you, Natalie! I hope you know the real difference you make to your readers’ lives. God bless.
learning
on 29/09/2012 at 10:45 pm
Thanks, Fearless.
We are all beautiful, strong and deserving in our own way, aren’t we?
Once we recognize that fully in ourselves, watch out world!
learning
on 29/09/2012 at 10:46 pm
AND CONGRATULATIONS!!!!
runnergirl
on 30/09/2012 at 6:38 am
FANTASTIC FEARLESS…how wonderful for you. You are good enough, in fact you are the best. And yes, thank you Natalie! What a difference indeed.
Learner
on 03/10/2012 at 8:28 pm
Congratulations Fearless! The negative messages you received from the EUM are being replaced with self-confidence – amazing. All the best in your new position 🙂
dancingqueen
on 29/09/2012 at 11:33 pm
Learning, word; your story could be my story as well. There is always some scapegoat in the family who is supposed to sit under the burden, take abuse, and make everyone feel okay by staying. If they leave then others have to admit that they might be asses.
Stay strong. It is not your fault and your family needs to hang the “welcome” mat out for some other sucker. hugs.
Tinkerbell
on 29/09/2012 at 12:06 pm
Hi Tired, honey. You will be okay. If you are NC with the a–hole, keep it that way. It is extremely hard, but focus on the work ahead that you need to do for yourself. Do not reminisce the good points about him, because the bad far outweigh the good. I didn’t need to, but you may want to list all the crap he put you through and put a copy of it everywhere in your home, and carry it around with you so it gets drummed into your brain. I have my issues which I continue to work on but I did not hang on or go back for more abuse after NC. I allowed my anger to view him as the sickest, most dysfunctional, (and he really was, married and philandering around was actually the least of his crimes) dickwad of the century and that kept me away. Please, Tired, it’s enough already. Move on. No regretting what has happened, beating yourself up (he did enough of that, I’m sure) You can’t change a thing about what has already passed. LET IT GO and create a healthy life for YOU. You may backslide at times, we all do, because that’s all part of the struggle to be free of the sick, twisted crap. But, you will see the light at the end of the long dark tunnel, and realize that the light, and resulting peace of mind, is so much more soul satisfying than the turbulent darkness. I pray for you.
Lochy
on 29/09/2012 at 2:07 pm
Great post. I really admire your courage in sharing this stuff. I continually get pulled back to the anger of a period of my past with my father that is completely unacknowledged (or rather it is treated as just a blip when it actually devestated me and changed the course of life). Like you, i have no interest in a BS relationships where there are white elephants everywhere. I don’t know the answer but I have a feeling that your commitment to yourself steers you in the right direction and something to keep coming back to when things get rough, as they inevitably will sometimes. That is something I have taken from your posts, which is a brand new thing for me at the grand old age of 38. But better late than never right! 🙂
tracy
on 29/09/2012 at 3:02 pm
Over two years ago my ex stopped seeing our kids. His choice, as he only lives two hours away. Contact had been going downhill for two years before that. Excuses were always work, money, needing to be with his current girlfriend (the ultimate story: leaving the kids at 9 AM on Christmas morning so that his girlfriend wouldn’t be alone for Christmas…which was interesting since she was Jewish…). For our daughters 16th birthday he sent her a check and it bounced. She was sick of his not seeing her, ignoring her, and now she had to pay the bank $25 for the bounced check fee. So she sent him a nasty email (also, she has REALLY bad PMS and all this was converging), but a very typical 16-yr-old girl email.
His response was to call HER ungrateful, an offer to give up his parental rights, and ended with the line, “You stay away from me”.
She was pissed for a while, then seemed ok, but then plunged into a MAJOR depression, failing school, bad boy choiced, ending in a suicide attempt. He has still not come to see her.
She’s fine now. More than fine. We got her into major therapy, I’m paying out the nose for it, but it’s worth it because my baby is back.
Her therapist says she can stop now if she wants. But SHE has asked to keep going until she goes off to college next fall because, as she says, “I want to work on these Daddy issues NOW, not when I’m older”.
MY father bailed when I was a little girl, and even though I was raised by a wonderful step-father, to have someone come in and out of your life and treat you indifferently is damaging. I wanted to stop this cycle.
I’ve been reading this site for four years now, I think when she’s using my computer she reads it when it’s up. She is a very, very wise girl
grace
on 29/09/2012 at 11:44 pm
Tracy
My heart goes out to her. The situation sadly is not unusual. I know of too many cases where fathers have done a runner, or they think the kids are great fun until the kids get older and start becoming less adoring and more demanding (nothing wrong with that, it’s part of growing up).
It’s natural for a chid to think, what did I do wrong?
NOTHING
“Fathers do not provoke your children to anger lest they become discouraged”
Tired
on 29/09/2012 at 3:16 pm
Thankyou tinkerbell , i was very angry this morning as i walked the dog and i shouted ranted away down in the fields where no one could hear me lol . Poor poor dog hes waiting hanging around in his old age to make sure im okay i came home to a mess from ex mm asking if im okay and what job was i applying for , i think it was because i said bollocks to it all and hes game playing , wait for it i didnt reply as he wanted me to go oh where are you ? Etc rabbit do he knows im still talking to him and i didnt answer i dont want two shitty texts and no reply to make me feel crap i want you gone i went down town instead with a friend and looked at all the other fishes in the sea and enjoyed the sun on my face lol no games for me just real life , strength to all you fabulous girls out there in usa and dear ole blighty x
teachable
on 29/09/2012 at 3:49 pm
I’m not sure about any of this. I’ve dealt with family of origin & childhood issues to death. Over & over. In group therapy led by professional therapists dealing with specific issues. Individual therapy looking at the whole damed lot (20+ years of it – I kid you not – off & on). 20+ years of slowly sorting through it in self groups, 5 times ‘officially’ using a structured program. And, mostly, it’s sorted to the degree that it can be. I can.never therapise my turbulent childhood or family of origin issues away but I have learnt to take my lemons & make lemonade, a process which I think is lifelong & ongoing. As we go through the lifespan, like with your wedding Nat, we bump imto experiences which give rise to opening the box rearranging the contents & our thoughts or feelings, incorporate the new realisations &.move forward.
My question I’ve been wondering about of late, in thinking about why I’ve been single so long (apart from not trusting men enough to put my future in one’s hands I.e financial independence via a good career was an important dating pre-requisite for me & I’m nearly there as measured by having the house paid off) is this:
They say that (assuming one is heterosexual) we date ppl like our opposite sex parent. Surprise, surprise, my father (much like my non existant partners) was never there! In fact, my biological father is unknown. My adopted father, dosited my sister & I in an orphanage when I was 3 yo. I would never return home & the remainder of my childhood was a serious of miserable hellholes one would not leave your dog in let alone a child.
We were sent to visit my mother & step father monthly for the weekend, until they divorced when I was seven. After that my sister & I took turns between bi monthly weekends at mums & dads. I did not know at this time he was my adopted father. I was told her was my biological father. I learned the truth by accident when I overheard adults talking l was 12. By then he had a new girlfriend he planned to marry. She had a two year old.
We argued one day during a weekend visit & my adopted Father called me a liar. I hadn’t lied & said that was rich after everyone had just lied to me whole life about him being my adopted not biological father (this was the first time I revealed to him that I knew & the secret everyone had been keeping from me was finally out). While we are on topic I asked, do you plan to also lie to your new girlfriends 2yo & tell HER that you are HER bio father also (there had been talk of an engagement). He admitted that yes, the child would be raised to think he was the bio father. I hit the roof & a bitter argument ensued.
The following week my adopted Dad (who had adopted me at 6 mths old) visited me at the childrens home I was in at the time & told me I would not be visiting him anymore, that my sister (his bio child) would be visiting him alone from now on & that he had a ‘new family now & there was no room in it for me’ (these were his exact words. I have never forgotten them).
On that day the only father I had ever known, turned on his heel & literally walked out of my life. I only spoke to once after that in my early 20’s. I was searching for information on my real father & I thought he might know something. He (unlike my Mother who has cruelly told.me all sorts of conflicting stories over the years) told.me Mother never told him a name. He believes it’s because she doesn’t know.
Now, I didn’t tell this story for sympathy. Yes, it’s a bit ordinary but I’ve had a lifetime to grieve the loss. I just wonder, is perhaps WHY I’ve been most of the time single all these long years. Because that is definately emulating my opposite sex partner. Ie He is literally not there!!!
Am I making any sense here??
teachable
on 29/09/2012 at 4:14 pm
And PLEASE don’t anyone laugh at me when I say this, because yes I DO feel foolish admitting it, but recently I have finally made contact with that little 2 yo girl. My step sister. Phew. Sorry. This is a bit hard for me. She’s now a grown woman in her 30’s & recently learned the truth that she is fact adopted (not from me). So far we have only emailed but my sister I was in the homes with talks to her & between my emails & my sister verifying everything I’ve told her, she now knows the story of what Dad did all those years ago.
Embarressingly, I have a desire to reconnect with my adopted father. Not yet, as I am ill & I need to approach him from a position of strength. But really, I look back at what he has done & the terrible things which I suffered because of him ( he placed my sister in an orphanage because he was abusive to our Mother & he knew this would break her & it did, although shelwas also abusive & mentally ill) & think why? He’s not a good father to my sister so why would he be kind toward me!
He’s in complete denial about what he has done & claims to have no knowledge of the terrible abuse my sister & I endured for our entire childhoods in those horrible places. How convenient. The 2 yo now a woman knows though. Perhaps I want to be able to just say to him you almost destroyed me but you know what you didn’t & it made me a better person & you are all the poorer for the loss of my sister & I from your life. I don’t know. Nat says silence speaks louder. His is deafening. Bet he nearly choked when my sister commented to him that she hopes any provisions in his will go some way toward making some sort of ammends for the terrible harm he caused us both in our childhoods! (He retired at 45 & was an accountant). He stole our colledge fund accounts when he divorced our Mother. My sister never made it that far. I’m still working & struggling to pay my way through uni! Some Dad huh!!
Anon
on 30/09/2012 at 7:15 pm
Teachable, I am really sorry about your terrible experiences. Truly. Good for you for coming out of it and finding the truth, sanity and communication on this blog. I hope God has a special place in Heaven for all of us who endured hell on earth with toxic parents. I do not think you should ever contact your step father, even from a position of ‘strength’ because he sounds really sociopathic, and their ACTUAL GOAL (not happenstance because he had a bad life or doesn’t know any better) is to hurt and destroy. This will set you back again, as he will disappoint 100% of the time. The general public (law/MD/psychotherapists) don’t seem to grasp this concept, but sociopaths have a non-quenchable thirst for evil, and you will just make his day and put a sinister grin on his face by letting him know how much he hurt you. They consider that a ‘win’. They also tend to sire lots of kids, and have many wives/girlfriends, not because they love them of course, but because it provides more outlets for the abuse and chaos they enjoy envoking. Sadly, that was probably his wish all along. We can just hope that the “karma’ we hear of actually works some where, some how.
tiffrbug
on 29/09/2012 at 6:00 pm
Nat,
I hope you get to feeling better, sorry your jaw hurts. This hit right home, once again. Since I have been working on me, I find myself asking “why, why, why? Why would someone not want to be with me?” I have finally come to the realization that “it’s not me!” I also get the feeling that I never knew him (my ex, or dad for that matter). It’s all like a false, guarded, veneer. I have also found that they need our pity, because you can never truly know love unless you are vulnerable and let someone in. It is a half life at that! So very sad! To all girls, try not to let it knock you down, this behavior is just the norm for them!! We are all beautiful and deserve love. As for the men, I guess the love we can give them is in prayers. 🙂
simple pleasures
on 29/09/2012 at 6:42 pm
Well Natalie, you’ve got us thinking about our parents! I’ll share my mother’s story. She married Don and she always said he was a really nice man, stable,all things good, but not highly educated or intellectually stimulating(salt of the earth boring?). Two years together then he went to fight
WWII and was away 4years with limited contact. Back home for another 2 yrs but in that time Mom
met my Dad. Divorced Don, married Dad (Ivy League, brilliant professional, mega intellectual stimulation, let me add emotionally unavailable not only to me but her too…). They
were married 35 yrs until his death. It was a very intellectually stimulating, emotionally agonizing marriage. She and I nursed him with commitment (that’s love)through his horrific cancer death.
At age 75 Mom goes to 50th reunion and sees Don after 36 yrs! He’s married to Gladys for 35 yrs. A yr. later Gladys dies one night of heart attack. Don recontacts Mom (1000’s of miles away). At age 77 Mom remarried Don and had another 8 yrs with him. Solid, respectful, kind, nice, a bit boring but emotionally available.
I liked Don. Didn’t like my father. Mom and I took care of both of them in their deaths. When Dad died, well it was a loss after 35 yrs of partnership, commitment and love. But when Don died, her grief was inconsolable. Lesson for us all, it’s an emotionally available man we want when we are 83yrs old.
tracy
on 30/09/2012 at 4:29 am
Thank you for that story. It gives hope that there are good men out there. It’s sad that ‘stable’ men seem boring. The old ‘slow and steady wins the course’ argument really rings true for these guys. But we condition ourselves that ‘slow and steady’ equals boring. Maybe we need to train ourselves to slow down and see the forest for the trees instead of always falling for the flashy ACs
Used
on 30/09/2012 at 4:27 pm
Amazing! Great story.
Also note: old flames die hard. And the rejecter (the emotionally unavailable one) (here, your mom) can always get back the rejectee.
Grizelda
on 29/09/2012 at 6:50 pm
I’m afraid I have to put my hand up too and say I was trained very well indeed to deal with my ‘difficult’ father throughout my childhood. Emotionally unstable, selfish, mean, hypochondriac attention-commander with an explosive temper and control issues, I have only a very few memories of kind and loving moments with him when I was younger than six.
Apparently, he was certain I would be a prized son when I was born, and he was incredibly disappointed when I turned out to just be a second daughter. When my mother decided she wasn’t up to having any more than two children, so denying him his precious son, he crept into a den like a dragon and lashed out at us every time we went near until he finally departed when I was 17.
I haven’t seen him for 12 years. I send him birthday, Christmas and (get this) Father’s Day cards every single year and receive nothing in return. I received nothing from him as a wedding present although he did come to my wedding. When I sent him a care package when I heard he was ill about 18 months ago, he refused it at the door and sent it back to where it came from.
I fall for strong, capable men. Men who have the capacity to take care of me if needs be — although I’m so strong and independent myself, it really takes someone I have to admire in this respect before I fall for them. This worked out fine with some really balanced boyfriends and a relatively balanced husband — until my most recent relationship when I really threw myself into something with an EU/MM psychopath. Hey, I had all the skills, right? I’d been trained well by my mother how to cope with EU masterpieces such as my father. And so I went on for five years. I has to be the last and only time. Has to be.
Learner
on 03/10/2012 at 8:37 pm
Grizelda,
oh my goodness. How awful for you that your dad ignores you to that extreme, and even refuses your gifts! I was also rejected very early on by my father partly because of my gender. The nurse attending my birth mistakenly told him I was a boy, and he started calling family to tell them about the birth of his son. When he heard I was actually a girl, it was just never the same. I always felt “not good enough” because I was a girl. I had forgotten all this till I read your comment. How can we live up to expectations involving our sex chromosomes? No wonder we felt we had to jump through hoops to please them. And for what? More puzzle pieces falling into place – thanks for your comment xo
Laurie
on 29/09/2012 at 7:41 pm
I cried when I read this post. I’m so sorry, Natalie. Obviously I don’t know you, but your posts have been such an encouragement to me, and I’m sorry you have to deal with all of this. Your vulnerability is incredibly refreshing, especially as I was beginning to think that perhaps you possessed super-human emotional powers : ) I think it’s important to learn that even if I do have and maintain healthy boundaries (which I’m trying to do) and I learn to love myself unconditionally (which is even harder to do) that I won’t necessarily be *protected* from being hurt. There’s no avoiding it. But we can lessen the hurt that we feel by choosing not to make someone else’s hurtful behavior about us.
Lizzy
on 29/09/2012 at 7:43 pm
Hi Natalie. Thanks for very powerful post and for sharing your own family trials and tribulations.
It’s been on my mind all day, esp this bit: “…the connection is something that’s ‘there’ without a wealth of positive experiences to back it up. It just ‘is’ and we never question it and where it comes from – we might just fanny away a lifetime though trying to get them to live up to the connection…”
I know you’re talking about fathers, but it made me think about how I launched myself into a relationshit with my ex-AC and fannied away 10+ years because of the ‘connection’ I’d decided we had. I would have (and did!) put up with anything he threw at me because, in my head, we were ‘soulmates’ and made for each other. I blindly assumed he felt the same about us – although his actions should have been more than enough evidence that he saw me more as a someone to pay his bills, boost his ego and put a roof over his head.
In the 8 years since we broke up, I’ve mulled over this extremely unhealthy attachment ad nauseum… Anyone in their right mind would have told him where to get off, sharpish, so why did he have a hold on me for so long? I’ve had therapy, read BR every day for over two years and I know it has something to do with the way I was brought up, but I can’t put my finger on exactly what/why.
I get that my parents trained me to have low self-esteem, that I went out into the adult world with no boundaries whatsoever, having never been allowed to have any. My mum (who died 16 years ago when I was 27) was hypercritical, depressed, moody, unaffectionate, blatantly favoured my brother and was verbally and occasionally physically abusive towards me. I’ve always thought of my dad as the good guy, and he did what he thought was best, but he never protected me from my mum, he was dismissive of my opinions and my interests and, like my mum, would endeavour to control me with his moods. Recently two friends have used the word paternalistic to describe him. I thought it just meant ‘fatherly’ but I found it actually means depriving someone of their rights and responsibilities because you have decided you know what’s best for them – and this just about sums it up.
I am basically fine now and happier than I’ve ever been, but it still bugs me that I wasted 10+ of the best years of my life obsessed with a drunken, drug-taking, commitment-dodging, future-faking egotist who witheld sex and bled me dry emotionally and financially. I suppose I was rebelling and he also had the coldness of my mother? Could it be as simple as that?
Apologies for waffling on! I don’t expect anyone to have the answers, it has actually helped just writing it down x
grace
on 29/09/2012 at 9:02 pm
Lizzy
I think you nailed it. I’ve gone over and over it myself for years with therapy, counsellors etc. if you really want to know how to heal and move forward then heal and move forward. It’s one of those things you just have to believe in, have faith in, and do. Think skydiving. You can think and think and think but at some point you have to jump.
It’s safer than skydiving though, and not as pointless ha. Apologies to all you skydivers out there.
Eight years is enough now. As for the ten wasted years I was bemoaning these to my brother who said, “you can still learn from the wilderness”. Even if those years had been wonderful they would still be gone and all of us only have the present. Don’t worry it away. Enjoy it. We seem to need permission to do that. Well, I give it you!
Lizzy
on 29/09/2012 at 10:15 pm
Thank you, Grace, for replying to my rambling comment. Whenever I start ruminating over the wilderness years I’m going to remember that you told me to enjoy myself and try to do just that! As always, I appreciate your wise words x
Lizzy
on 29/09/2012 at 7:47 pm
PS that was not meant to be italics or bold! wrong html bits, sorry!
StillJune
on 29/09/2012 at 10:39 pm
It’s incredibly tough to navigate your way through life when your primary caregivers gave you only bad things to work on. I am still trying to recover from it, but I feel lucky that I finally recognize their BS and now know that I am not a bad and disgusting being just because that’s what my mother thought (her own issues, obviously). I am not her. No matter how much she tries to make me feel guilty for enjoying my life. Still… I feel sad for her, because she never had the opportunities that I had and she did make me the person I am today… Instilled a great sense of purpose and seriousness. Wonder how much better it could have been if she had instilled a sense of wonder and love and acceptance of self.
annie
on 30/09/2012 at 1:20 am
This month it was my saughters birthday, her father randomly called. This upset her extremely. As he randomly calls. Future fakes and make promises never keeps. On this subject. I spoke with and told her it was perfectly normal to feel the way she does and that she is a wonderful person, whom im blssed to have in my life. That he does not in anyway reflect who she is as a person. However, my question to yo all is what should i tell my child, to lessen the effects in later life. How do you deal with this situation of a missing father turnng up on a whim. Would love to hear some advice on this matter Thanks!
Fearless
on 30/09/2012 at 2:21 pm
Annie, maybe let him know that he can’t and won’t be permitted to turn up in a whim, to be a constant let down to his child. Some boundaries with these whimsical people wouldn’t go amiss, I think. Not getting any promises is better that getting a whole bunch of empty ones over years and years
MaryC
on 30/09/2012 at 2:27 am
I feel so lucky to have 2 amazing parents and even though they divorced when I was a teenager and my dad’s been gone almost 19yrs his love still surrounds me. I truly do feel bad for all the ladies who have posted their struggles with their parents and even though I can’t relate my heart goes out to all of you. After reading all the posts I truly am grateful for my parents and will make sure I tell my mom that tomorrow.
Diane W.
on 30/09/2012 at 2:33 am
Hi Natalie! You said, “I cannot wish for what wasn’t. I can only appreciate what is, and this has a lot more value for me than anything I may think I’ve missed out on. I hope that you can do the same.” Yes! I’ve been doing it more since I read your blogs. Your insights have given me peace and courage and (most of all) reasons to move on after my last involvement with a guy must come to an end because he is an assclown. Thank you, again.
teachable
on 30/09/2012 at 3:42 am
Victorious
Try not to berate yourself at being more concerned with the ex EUM than your father passing at the time. This is only my opinion, but I believe these unhealthy r/ships serve the specific function of distracting us from ourselves & whatever may need attention in our lives. This is partly why (conciously or unconciously) we choose them in the first place. We fear that we cannot cope with facing up to the real issues, & in the duration of the relationship those issues, of course start to expand & pile up. This is just the basic anatomy if you will of the function of such involvements. When we know better on a deep level, & see fully what such behaviour is costing us, we do better. We may not do better, perfectly, every time, but we strive for progress not perfection. You’re here at BR, which siuggests you’re on your way. Be gentle with yourself. Any Father who loves his daughter will understand. Show yourself the compassion & forgiveness a kind & loving parent would.
selkie
on 30/09/2012 at 3:42 am
Natalie,
It’s interesting how life’s big events like holidays, weddings, deaths, births, etc can be a trigger for some in relationships. Your Father pushing boundaries ( I assume ) right before your wedding, a very special day for you, is very selfish in my opinion. He had no self control to just sit on his need to act out? Why do people (Fathers, mothers, lovers, siblings, etc,) let the wheels fall off during important times in life? It’s confusing to me, like they can’t handle the realness of good times, or are uncomfortable with someone else’s happiness so they sabotage it. I’m glad it all worked out though, just like the wedding dress.
Scarlet
on 30/09/2012 at 4:20 am
I feel embarrassed for coming back to BR every time I try to get out of this sick (non) relationship. I was here last weekend and feeling strong about my resolve and there it was again. On Monday he calls and promises me the world. I believe him and by friday he just wants to be friends again.
I have finally had a confession that he is back using drugs on the weekends and that is why he goes missing. But the worst thing is that he is using with his ex. God knows what else they are doing. I feel so so so betrayed and hurt and angry. And I know with every inch of my soul that I need to get away but I am so addicted to him that I don’t know how I will maintain no contact. I am as addicted to him as he is to his drugs and his ex girlfriend. I am angry at him, the situation and myself. It is all such a mess and I wish I could escape it.
I don’t even have the excuse that I had an absent father.
micheleRG
on 02/10/2012 at 8:11 pm
this is literally my exact situation. i am constantly comparing myself to the ex and wondering what she has that i dont? i know hes addicted to drugs, and he wont let go of her. even when me and him are “good” he ends up leaving me for her. it’s a vicious cycle and he always say he’ll change but doesn’t. ugh, i need to break this pattern of behavior, stay strong scarlet
Doubtful
on 04/10/2012 at 2:35 am
Go to Al Anon. Been there. Done that.
Scarlet
on 30/09/2012 at 7:47 am
Actually my father may have not been absent, but my mother would go for days at a time without speaking with me. I was always too scared to ask what I had done wrong because the shame of knowing how I had upset her would be too much to bare as a little girl. My mum had a mental illness and I know she did the best she could but there was always this understanding that I had to behave the way she wanted me to or she would withdraw from me. That was so painful. So here I am and although intellectually I know that the treatment I am choosing to receive from this UEM is appalling, the little girl in me is always screaming for him to come back and talk to me and tell me he really does love me. I can never stand the silence of no contact as it takes me right back to the times when my mum wouldn’t talk to me. It is honestly excruciating.
Sadder but Wiser
on 30/09/2012 at 1:50 pm
Scarlet, the fact that you see this connection is enormously important and a necessary first step in becoming able to end your addiction. You have the awareness that you can’t leave this guy because you feel like a helpless little girl who desperately needs attention from her absent mother. For an adult, enduring the silence of no contact is just uncomfortable and miserable. But for this little girl, yes of course it’s excruciating. For her, of course the silence is unbearable. In times of stress, you immediately revert to the position of being a powerless child. (I know exactly what that’s like – when I feel helpless and powerless I often find myself sobbing for “my mommy.” And I’m in my 50s).
No amount of “intellectually” knowing what you need to do and what you should do is going to be effective in counteracting these powerful emotional triggers. Forget about trying to reason it out – your little girl will continue to control the situation until she gets what she needs. And the good news is she can get what she needs from YOU.
Have you ever tried dialogue techniques? You can talk to your little girl and assure her that she is safe and that she doesn’t have to be afraid of silence anymore because YOU are going to continue to talk to her and you will never leave her or ignore her. This may sound a little silly, but it’s enormously powerful. This technique is described in a book I found very helpful: The Journey from Abandonment to Healing by Susan Anderson. You can learn not to rely on any external source – not your mother, not a lover – to give you what you need.
I’ve been where you are and I know how excruciating it feels. But you ARE more powerful than you know. Good luck!
Rave
on 01/10/2012 at 9:37 pm
Hi all,
My therapist had me work on this technique.
Being an intellectual, I kind of went with it because my pragmatic side thought I was paying for my therapy so I might as well fully participate! : )
It sounds REALLY silly and FEELS really silly but stay with it.
Have 2 chairs facing each other. Sit down as the little girl and talk to your adult self as if it were a person sitting right in front of you. You can be angry, sad, crying, as vulnerable as you need to be. Then, once you have said what you had on your chest, switch chairs and answer to the little girl as if you were a caring parent or parental figure.
For one thing, you will realise that a lot of your internal dialogue belongs to the little girl part of yourself. You can even find yourself getting very upset and crying like a little girl!
You can do this for 5 minutes at a time, it doesn’t have to be a lengthy exercise. More importantly, you will find that switching roles make you feel in control as an adult:the positive results will manifest in real life.
Don’t be afraid to go really deep as the little girl:you will heal a lot from this exercise, and you will develop a relationship of trust between the little girl part of you and the adult, caring, parental part of yourself.
My therapist ( I used to hate people starting sentences with:my therapist said!) gave me the image of a little puppy. She asked me if I would hurt, kick a tiny little puppy under my care. Of course I said:No.
She proceeded to say that a vulnerable creature like a puppy or baby can’t be responsible for the way caretakers take care of them. Basically, it’s a good way to take the shame out of the equation, as it’s easy as an abandoned, neglected child to put the blame on oneself.
Imagine you are given a puppy/baby to take care of. It helps to use the puppy image because it’s not as loaded as having children for women.
It’s hard to accept that we must parent ourselves at whatever age we are. However, there is nothing comparable with the feeling of being in charge of our emotional well being. The effort and temporary discomfort is well worth it.
Taking back our power as women, adults, captains of our own ship is a journey worth taking.
Revolution
on 02/10/2012 at 6:37 am
Great idea, Rave! Thanks for sharing this technique. I’ll have to try it sometime.
I always used to joke that I am my inner child’s bouncer. I feel like the little girl Revolution is this brown-eyed little girl with a page-boy haircut and maryjanes, while grown up Revolution is in her kick-ass leathers and high-heel boots (move over boys). Makes me laugh. Maybe we can take this a step further and visualize ours and the other’s “persona” as we’re having the “conversation.” You gave us all some GREAT food for thought, Rave! 🙂
On Leaving Sugarland
on 03/10/2012 at 5:19 am
I think I will one day try this technique; thank you for sharing Rave.
I feel very split right now: my inner child is right here with me; for, I have learned to feel my feelings.
I dunno, I had an inner child moment, and it was a different type of pain; it was a real, deep pain…difficult to describe, but ….
I dunno, going this deep scares the %#&% out of me, but I think it would truly benefit me, and maybe I can let go of my childhood/dysfunctional family disappointments once and for all.
I dunno….
Itsmylifenow
on 01/10/2012 at 4:53 am
Wow, Scarlet I had to check and see if I had posted this and forgot.
My situation is almost identical to yours. My mom suffered from a very bad childhood and my therapist believes she had a mental illness from everything I’ve said about her.
One of the things she did was withdraw from me when she got mad at me. I remember her being so angry once and me literally begging her to forgive me but she wouldn’t. I had to continually beg her to make sure she still loved me. She too could go on for this for a few days. As an adult you are better able to handle these things and you realize people sometimes need time to cool off.
But, as a kid, this is the ultimate torture. Because if you do something and your mother no longer loves you, then you are going to learn to behave and do whatever it is it takes to not lose that.
Carry forward and I just got out of a R with an alcoholic a little over a month ago. Our r was dynamic was almost identical to that of me and my mothers.
I left him after finding out he was partying way too much with the exgf and she was over his house a few times a day and at night and he wasn’t telling me. I, too, had an addiction to him. Probably still do but it’s not out there like it was.
So, it’s quite uncanny that you share a very similar experience to me.
I started going to a co-dependents meeting every week and that has seemed to help.
Scarlet
on 01/10/2012 at 11:49 am
Thanks so much for the advice Sadderbutwiser and wow, Itsmylifenow. That is truly uncanny. I do feel like I have been coming up against my past with everything that has happened with this man and I now feel like this is the last hurdle to get over when it comes to the healing from my childhood. I have got to a place where I do not blame my mum at all any more. She died three years ago and I struggled terribly for a year after her death. I struggled with such complicated grief because there was sadness, yet so much resentment, but I worked through it all and I got to a point where I truly forgave her and realised she did the best she could given her illness.
I guess what it comes down to now is the addiction to being told I’m loved. Hard to get over, but I’ll keep trying. It looks like you are no longer in that relationship with your alcoholic. Did you do NC?
Arlena
on 30/09/2012 at 9:04 am
Thanks, Natalie, for sharing this touching reflection. I admire how you draw lessons of crap – you spin gold of straw – and how quick you cut through the fog and pinpoint the real deal. I love how you walk your talk!
I got reminded of the time when I desperately wanted to have a connection with a man I decided to be THE ONE. And yes, over the whole time I didn’t know much about him, but the “CONNECTION” seemed to be indestroyable. It was like me holding a ribbon and constantly, constantly throwing it in his direction, pretzeling to make him take up the other end, what never happened. Thankfully, in hindsight. It made me realise that all my struggle was to get a surrogate Daddy connection. I denied it for long, but that was all behind it. No love.
I have observed that many people who claim to have a fantastic relationship with their parents, who talk with them daily/weekly extensively, caring for them, living with them, often by looking deeper are just throwing this ribbon again, and again and again in their direction in hopes the parents, even demented or old age, would finally take it up and do their job. The parents never did it but enjoyed the benefits of care and attention, even felt entitled to the care despite all their crappy parenting. When I asked those about their childhoods I had to listen to stories of neglect, disinterest, abuse and yet the adult kids were returning in the umpteenth attempt to get that parental love, approval and attention squeezed out last minute.
You helped me realise that after surviving my childhood, at least with age 18, I can do my own parenting. – Being a parent is a temporary job and it is said that our kids are just guests. After they’ve left the nest, they may return but then it is not parent and adult kid anymore but equals. They can become friends – but the same rules as for everybody should be applied. If parents showed shady behaviour, red flags and all the no-gos, why would we want to have them in our lives as friends? We refuse the friend cards of our exes for a reason, we can refuse the parental friend cards after their job expired.
After age 18, it is a new decision. We couldn’t be asked if we wanted to be born, thrown into this particular family. That was random. Neither parent nor children know which cocktail of traits will come up with a kid or be found in the parents. Obviously a mismatch can happen – quite often even as we see. Why trying the impossible? Boundaries it is and farewell.
dancingqueen
on 30/09/2012 at 6:27 pm
“I have observed that many people who claim to have a fantastic relationship with their parents, who talk with them daily/weekly extensively, caring for them, living with them, often by looking deeper are just throwing this ribbon again, and again and again in their direction in hopes the parents, even demented or old age, would finally take it up and do their job.”
Yep you have it in a lot, but not all, circumstances. Thank you for stating this. So validating.
SophieR
on 30/09/2012 at 1:39 pm
This post has resonated with me more than any other. I have struggled with my relationship with my father for almost 10 years now since my Mother left him. I have gone from being incredibly close to him, supporting him through a painful divorce to at present finding it very difficult to build up the strength to even spend time with him. Whilst it was my mother that left I have been able to find peace with my relationship with her as she has continuously made the effort to be open to listening to how I feel and working on building back up our relationship. In turn I feel that my Dad has turned his back on his responsibility as a parent to demonstrate his ‘unconditional love’ for his children. I think that the idea of unconditional love is too easily accepted as something that just exists without any need to prove or show that to the people it applies to. It’s not ok that just because someone raised you, they can take no interest in your life as an adult, make little effort to see or contact you or to address the issues that their choices have made in your life. Where I have fallen down is my inability to confront him about how he makes me feel….the big elephant in the room as you mention. I am scared that opening this box of emotions will lead me to say things to him that could damage our relationship irreparably. These issues have effect my self esteem massively and in turn the choices I have made in my own romantic relationships, being ‘drawn’ to a man that I know had no intention of committing to me, has trampled over every boundary I thought I had and even after breaking up I continued to chase this person in the hope that they would validate me and make me feel that I was worth sticking around for – issues I clearly have with both of my parents.
What I am still struggling with is the feeling that because these patterns keep emerging within my relationships that the root cause of that is me. I hope that I can get back to a place where I feel confident enough in who I am as a person that I can confront these issues and still feel ok with who I am.
teachable
on 30/09/2012 at 2:00 pm
I fee for you too Laurie. At least someone like myself knew no questions, flat out, the problem was clearly not me. 3 yo little girls cannot possibly be so terrible as to ’cause’ the carnage which ensued in my childhood. Of that I was always, quite certain. And I let it be known. Which, I’m sure is why they chose me of all the kids in one particular place to try to ‘break’ the most. Still, they could not break me. My intellect alone, saved me & I challenged their cruelty at every turn. It took quite some ingenuity to make my lawful escape aged only 15. That is a whole other story. I read stories like yours though, & the many here who had acrual familes & parents raising you, & think gee, that must have been so sad. I really do feel for all those who lived with parents who mistreated them. It’s really very sad. Stay strong everyone. Luckily as adults we create our own families of choice. They’re called friends! X
teachable
on 30/09/2012 at 2:12 pm
That is true Arlena. Mostly I agree. But there is another side I struggle with. Some religions say, we ought to honour our parents no matter what. That this as adult children is our duty to them. I wonder if this creed arose in the way marriage did? But instead of women being a form of property it was to ensure the elderly in society would be cared for in times past before the advent of elderly care homes? There is apparently an exception if the parent is or was abusive to the child. Then of course we bump against religious notions of forgiveness so we look at issues of degree, seriousness, frequency etc. It sounds simple the way you describe it, & at the very bottom line it is, but the world & it’s complexities, especially in the area of family of origin issues, is rarely black & white. We are more likely to extend a more generoue spirit to a parent for example who wrongs us, (or less depending on the history) than we might a friend. Your description though as a basic premise I think is sound & I would point out, applies to adult children also.
Arlena
on 01/10/2012 at 3:01 pm
@ Hi teachable, mostly we get religious values from our parents or caregivers at a time when we are not able to make up our own minds. They can cause a lot of value clashes within ourselves later if we don’t challenge and re-evaluate them and consciously choose what is true for us. Follow you, not a dogma at least that is what I do. x
colororange
on 30/09/2012 at 2:17 pm
I related so much to your story about your father. My dad did the usual “I’m sorry” after each f*ck up and I just went along. But for several years now, I ignore it because he does not get it. He doesn’t and never will. How do I know this? Because he keeps doing the same stuff he’s always done except a little more low-key since the law is involved. I accepted and quite frankly don’t care that he will never be this father I wished I had. It sucks but well what can you do? It’s over.
I had an a-ha! moment when you said “Hence now even when things don’t go as I like, how I feel about me doesn’t change whereas before, I’d screw up and really give myself a hard time and withhold affection from me.” I do this…I beat myself up over even the slightest mistake and withhold affection from myself….because that is how my parents treated me when I did something they did not like. What a realization! I had no idea that’s what I was doing until now.
And the connection with someone I don’t really know….I had felt that with ex MM and it took me a few years for it to click that no matter the “connection” he simply is not good for me. He would have had to shape shift into someone else totally in order for him to be good for me. A few months back he was fishing in the middle of the night again via text. This time he was asking if I would talk to him again and if I did not respond he’d leave me alone. I did not respond.
miskwa
on 30/09/2012 at 3:30 pm
Long ago, I wrote off my emotionally and physically abusive family and kept my vow to never have children so as not to continue the cycle of sickness. I do take care of my dad (from a distance ) as he suffers from many health problems due to decades of obesity and alcoholism. I have used him as a model of what not to be and what to avoid at all costs in a partner. We have never connected in any real way; our values are very different and that’s ok. I think that looking for a meaningful connection physically, emotionally, and intellectually like what I had with my ex is what caused me to stumble into this disaster with AC. Finally, someone I was attracted to that was highly intelligent, where I didn’t have to “dumb down” myself and I could speak freely about environmental issues without threat of retaliation. Unfortunately like many westerners (Magnolia take note here) he is also selfish and does not care a rats about how many women he hurts so long as he gets attention and adoration. I went to four local social events last night and felt zero real connection with anyone there mainly because I truly cannot say what I want to and also because there was a television on in two if the places which draws folks in like flies to a corpse. AC and I would joke about this as neither of us were tv watchers. I wish I could break this sense of connection with AC, I am still rattled by his showing up at mi casa last week. Same stuff, standing really close, touching, throwing complements like manure, offering to help with my building (more BS). I am really considering giving up connecting with anyone for awhile, plunging myself into complete alone-ness and just getting work done. Terribly frustrating and just leaves me sad. Oh, well, today is a day to lay mortar, get some work done.
Feistywoman
on 30/09/2012 at 3:39 pm
I have had a connection with my sister only because she is my sibling. Throughout our lives I have always been the one making the effort. When I was divorcing a mentally unstable, philandering EUM she would say things like “we need to find you somewhere warm and safe to live” but the “we” was in reality me. Ok so she lived a 600 mile round trip distance from me but she never made any effort beyond her initial concern and visit to come and see me. We are now estranged again because I told her some truths and she clearly didn’t like them. Things like she never came to speak on the phone if I phoned as she was too busy and then it was days before she rang back, or that she only ever rang me to moan about our Mum, or was slotting a short call to me round her busy schedule and if we did speak for any length of time my nephew always interrupted plus she sidestepped my offers to visit. I just felt like I was an add on in her life and so if we go our separate ways then so be it. She is so selfish and has no concept of what my life is like as she never wants to know. She is a control freak by her own/others admissions and is a classic emotionally unavailable female. We have nothing in common as I am totally different and I have got tired of making this “connection” work when it isn’t there. She is an emotional vampire and trying to connect with her is unhealthy.
anna
on 30/09/2012 at 4:48 pm
Well put… Yes I treat that very fast “connection” as a warning sign…
A
on 30/09/2012 at 5:34 pm
I have so many different thoughts going around in my head as regards this post. I’ve heard it said that parents get back from their adult children what they gave to them (their children) while they were growing up. I think there’s a lot of truth to this. I have no relationship with my father, but my mother is still married to him so I can’t completely sever ties. My mother and my brother judge me for my lack of contact and would prefer that I just pretend that everything is fine. I didn’t want him to attend an important professional event in my life and at the event, my mother got upset and told me that he would have liked to have been there. My only regret about the situation is that it does upset my mother, but I knew that having him there would make me uncomfortable, and moreover, I didn’t want someone there who has only tried to tear me down my entire life. I remember him as an angry, erratic bully. Though I rarely talk to him, at the end of the first year of my professional degree, I had a conversation with him in which he tried to get me to say that I didn’t like what I was doing and that I was going to drop out (I had actually had a great year and had done quite well). Afterwards he told my mother that we had a “nice chat”. If I could wave a wand and have had a “good” parent in place of him, I would, but I have no desire to try to have a relationship with him. It is what it is. I do get angry when I think about all the shitty behaviour I’ve accepted in my life because I grew up being subjected to it. I often felt like I was the only person who called him out on some of his behaviour and that I was seen as being the problem for not just putting up with his bs like everyone else does. My mother once said something like “he’s not always like that”–as though we should just accept it/him because sometimes he might surprise and not be an a**hole. While it saddens me to see how many people have had crappy parents, it’s really nice to know that there are people out there who understand. I generally don’t mention anything about my father to friends because I think most people don’t get it–the common thinking seems to be that of course one should try to make things better with a parent. I see no reason to do so in my case. He made no effort to get over his issues and be a decent parent. He always blamed me and “my attitude” for any problems, and it’s not as though he has ever had a conversation with me about wanting to make things better or where he took any responsibility for anything. I once heard him tell a relative that we were “the best of friends” until “the hormones kicked in”, i.e. I became of an age where I was capable of independent thought and didn’t just blame myself for his crappy actions. Apparently crazy female hormones made me have a problem with him an no one else from the age of 12 or so onwards….funny that.
dancingqueen
on 30/09/2012 at 6:34 pm
at A
“I often felt like I was the only person who called him out on some of his behaviour and that I was seen as being the problem for not just putting up with his bs like everyone else does.”
Totally relate. You know though, someone sometimes needs to call out these people and I am okay at this stage with it being me; someone called out Hitler too, likely.
People always want others to shut up, until suddenly they need help. I am now toying with handing off the “baton” of my father’s care to my brother who, in his eyes, can do no wrong. If my dad is going to be abusive to me, then I am not going to sweat out going over his finances for him ( or lack thereof) and worry about the safety of his living conditions, he can do that with his favorite son, who doesn’t even care enough to step up on his own…egh.
A
on 01/10/2012 at 2:17 am
Thanks, dancingqueen. I almost responded to your earlier post, but I wasn’t sure what I could say that would be of any use other than I relate to what you said about this being the one place where we can be honest about these things. I’m sorry that your father has been so horrible to you. I’m sure it feels like an extra slap in the face when you’re already being the bigger person by going to see him considering what a crap father he was. It’s obviously his issue and always has been. What kind of person treats anyone, let alone their own child, in such a way? It’s difficult to fathom and so hard not to take it personally on some level, even though intellectually we know that it can’t have anything to do with us.
cc
on 30/09/2012 at 7:06 pm
natalie,
you brilliant thing you. this post is the crowning achievement, the crux of the matter, the seed, the kernel, the answer to the question of life, the universe, and everything. this is the core of BR.
i’m sorry it hurts. please, and i realize i’m giving YOU advice (how dare i!), see that some of these situations with our parents are extremely difficult to heal from, to let go of, precisely because of the unconditional love you referenced and how much we need them, if our parents make no effort to change. that right there explains a vast majority of all human behavior.
clearly, as you know, its him, not you, has nothing to do with you. and you’re already light years ahead of any of us because of how much you’ve figured out, that you are able to shine so much light on it for the rest of us.
you’re only human. and i hope you find peace with it very soon.
Revolution
on 30/09/2012 at 10:13 pm
Natalie,
I agree with cc. (I seem to say that a lot, ha!) I think THIS post is your crowning glory and also somewhat of the crux of the whole EU/AC debacle. It was funny too, because when I first saw the title, I said to myself, “Oh no she DI’IN’T just bust out the daddy issues!” Ha! 🙂 I guess on some level I knew it was coming. I’m sure I we all needed to read about it as much as you needed to write it.
G-money
on 30/09/2012 at 9:28 pm
Good evening ladies, I’m having an off day please excuse me If I don’t make much sense, it’s along the lines of connection just in a different way.
I’ve been having the best weekend, I went to a fantastic seminar related to my field and all in all it was so great being around friendly like minded people and not thinking about the EX but about what I was doing for myself.
That was until…. I’m a dog trainer and I was talking to a few of the girls there about where and what dogs I’ve adopted and this one dog in particular to utter surprise they worked with intensively before I got her. I couldn’t beleive the “small world” of it all.
This dog was the reason I got into dog training and it was the best decision I ever made. I met the ex shortly after I adopted her and he was the first male she allowed near her (big step considering she would freak out when approached by any male even my brother) she made so much progress from then on, she was the buffer so to say for meeting his kids, it really broke the ice having her around on the first meet, she was amazing with them. She sadly died of cancer after only having her for 8 months and we were both devastated, we went to the vet together huddled and crying while she went to sleep for the last time. Even though its been over 3 years, this dog has left a huge impact on my life.
While talking to these girls, one of them bounced with delight that she had pictures of her pups (she had them before I adopted her) and she showed me. It was the biggest mixture of feelings I’ve ever had, joy at knowing they went to fantastic homes, the twinge of heartbreak seeing my dog with them being a mammy and how alike they all were to my lil pooch. I was the extreme of happy and sad at the same time and I was fighting back the tears. Suddenly as if everything these last few months just fell out of my head I said outloud “oh wow wait until I tell … oh thats right yeah”
I brushed it off when one of the girls said pardon. It was such a momentary relapse I kind of shocked myself – I had a few of them when we first broke up but its been 5 weeks official NC.
For the rest of the day it wasn’t in my conscious thought at all, it must of been mulling around subconsciously because even though I was participating and having fun, I felt very quiet and distant, compared to yesterday where I was full of beans.
I didn’t realise it until I came home that what happened must of been going through my head unknown to myself. The best way to put it was I felt really vulnerable and at times just wanted to curl into a ball.
This beautiful dog holds a lot of memories for me and there is that connection between the ex and her, and the kids and her then followed by the traumatic event of her passing. My brain is having a memory lane moment and im recalling things I thought were forgotten.
I’m quite teary and I know that I have to run with it and let the thoughts come and process them through. I think what has me more upset is that I was completely blind sided with this.
runnergirl
on 01/10/2012 at 5:58 am
Hey G-Money, I’m so sorry for the passing of your beloved beautiful dog and the memories of the ex. Our dog passed in January after 12 years together. It was my daughter’s dog but it was really my dog. She loved the exMM and he loved her. He fed her table scraps, which we never did, and she loved it. She knew when he was coming over and I’d get the place mats out and start setting the table. She would run around chasing her tail. It was always a draw as to who would greet him first. She beat me most of the time cos she could sense it. When she passed, it triggered all the memories. The first time he was over, we were bbging and he slipped her a cracker. She wasn’t used to being fed table scraps and it bounced off her nose. I scooped it up wondering how the cracker ended up on the patio? They bonded at that moment. He knew how the cracker ended up on the patio and so did she. The three of us just stared at one another.
I was blindsided when she passed too. Is all I wanted to do was call him and tell him his favorite dog had passed. He had two dogs at home but she was his fav. We had soooo many funny moments with Mandy. Is all we can do is cherish those moments. I allow my brain to have those memory lane moments (your comment triggered several) and then it’s time to cut it off. It worked with the dog, it worked between the dog and him, it didn’t work with him and me cos he had a wife, three kids, and two dogs at home. So understand tho and I really miss those funny moments too.
Outergirl
on 03/10/2012 at 6:39 pm
Hi Runner,
I am so sorry to hear about your loss. I have a guinea pig [yes, a guinea pig] and people cannot believe how affectionate, & devoted this little guy is. He was a rescue and it’s like he has paid back my kindness beyone measure. I worry because they don’t live long enough and we just had our 5 year anniversary together. Like you, my a/c liked the little fella [everyone does] and I know when the time comes and my piggy & I must part, that it will trigger those memories too. Bleah,I hate this.. btw, Oct 1 was the a/c’s birthday and although I dreaded the thought of “that day”, I remembered his indifference to my many kindness’ [unlike my pet] and found I had way too much going on to even care about his birthday. Let his wife take care of it.
NK
on 01/10/2012 at 1:23 am
I have concluded that some of my boundary issues with guys are related to my dads past behaviour. My mum is a whole other can of worms. When I was very young he was convicted of indecent exposure to minors (teenage girls). Suspended sentence and sex offenders register. My mother was horrified, this made their temperamental (domestic violence) relationship worse. Broke up and the situation went from bad to worse. After foster care and a custody battle my dad got custody. YES READ THAT AGAIN. A registered sex offender (all be it a ‘minor’ offence) gained custody. He proceeded to continue his behaviour to one of my friends at age 11/12 and on the internet (which I ‘found’). I kept this hidden for a long time.
Eventually I confronted him aged 23, he tried to lie, but admitted eventually and I stated my feelings about him and it. I thought this would suffice, but I found myself cutting him out of my life for 6 months last year and contemplating our relationship. Which in general is a close one (despite this stuff). Eventually (after reading my social services records). I spoke to him and he completely let it all out. He admitted that he was not ready to look after me, that he was in denial about his issues and that perhaps I should not have been placed in his care. He apologised for the harm it caused me and assures me that he has been receiving psychological help for the last few years. I do get a genuine vibe from him about this and decided to take his word. Because as a dad we have a good relationship but if he is ‘still’ doing this behaviour then I will have to cut him out of my life until he sorts himself out. Its a tricky situation,in trusting him, but he knows that I will follow through if it happens. He only has me and his wife and I think he now realises the seriousness.
Apologies for the long-ness of this. I just wanted to share my experience as I have had ‘daddy issues’ fo sure!
I have related this to my trust issues – I think I have had trouble trusting in the long term. Is why I have ‘soiled my oats’. My recent abortion has really given me an insight into consequences and I feel a new amount of strength gained. Ive discussed my un ease with my sexual behaviour before here!
x
Tinkerbell
on 01/10/2012 at 4:04 am
G-money. Cheer up. It’s perfectly normal for you to have thought of telling your story to your ex. 5 months of NC is really not that long. It will get harder, but then one day you’ll realize you’re not as despondent as you were when you started. That’s growth right there. I remember it was around that time (5-6months) that it was particularly difficult for me not to go back, especially knowing he would have loved me to do just that. But instead my resolve was becoming stronger every day and the heavy load I’d been carrying around was noticeably lighter. I was glad I had blocked him so that he could not call or text me and vice versa. I did that immediately, and it made NC more bareable–notice I didn’t say “easier”. It was NEVER easy.
Wow, you’re a dog trainer? That’s something I’ve wanted to do as a sideline for years, but I’m allergic to dogs, and cats. Pooh!
Stay NC, no matter what. I’m supporting you.
runnergirl
on 01/10/2012 at 5:08 am
Hey Natalie, this post brought up some unresolved “mommy issues” for me. Thank you, I think. Even though my father was the perpetrator, I didn’t work that out until after my mother’s passing at 62 due to cervical cancer triggered by HPV due to my father’s sexual philandering. She was probably clinically depressed and justifiably so but in those days there was little to no awareness of depression. Thus, I became the surrogate parent to my four siblings and the surrogate spouse to my father. Of course, that will wreck havoc on a small child. I idealized my father who was important at work, held in the highest esteem by friends and colleagues, had the greatest sense of humor, was tall, dark, handsome, an AC of the highest order, very, very busy, and 100% unavailable. The apple didn’t drop far from the tree. It isn’t rocket science to figure out my past relationships with men. Since discovering BR, I’ve been able to off-load most/some of the daddy baggage. He is who he is. It has been disappointing to discover he wasn’t who I thought he was. The ex’s have helped in that regard as well. They weren’t who I thought they were either. Duh. The pattern is absurdly clear. However, I wish I could hug my mother and tell her it wasn’t her fault. She idolized me and I blamed her for the family discord. She seemed whiny, angry, and totally unable to cope. I resented her. Why did she keep having kids when she couldn’t raise them. I was 11 when I found out she was pregnant again with a fifth child. I was furious. Just another kid I’ll end up raising, which I did, however not very well as that one became a hard core drug addict. There was a moment right before my mother passed, when our eyes locked for what seemed like an eternity and everything went silent. It was like she was trying to tell me what had actually transpired and how much she tried but couldn’t. Obviously with what I understand now, she (no education and no job skills) couldn’t deal with a cheating AC pedophile with five kids. I wish she were here so I could tell her I know now and I forgive her. I truly forgive her. I know she tried to protect me. Since she is deceased, now I am left with forgiving me, yet a frigging again. Thank you Natalie for all your insights on forgiveness. Time to re-read. This parental baggage seems to be never ending.
Fearless
on 01/10/2012 at 10:00 pm
Oh runner, so sad reading your post. Your poor mother (and poor you too) Some men have a bloody lot to answer for. I have no answers, just want you to know that I feel for you and wish you all the very best. Don’t reproach yourself for stuff way beyond your control and understanding. An old family friend said to me at my dad’s funeral, you’ve done all your praying for him, now you can pray to him’. And I do.
grace
on 03/10/2012 at 11:42 pm
Runner
Oh that is very poignant. Hugs to you and well done for just being you.
Tinkerbell
on 01/10/2012 at 4:09 am
Sorry. 5 WEEKS of NC?!!! Block his a**, now. de-friend from Facebook, whatever else necessary.
G-Money
on 01/10/2012 at 4:07 pm
Tinkerbell, Oh his ass has been well blocked since last month, all emails, messages and numbers are deleted, didn’t want the temptation or leave anything open for him.
Thank you so much for your support, we broke up in July, talked briefly in August but told him to hit the road 5 weeks ago when I realised I was just asking for more trouble. It doesn’t sound that long even though it feels longer.
NC this time round is definitely bareable, compared to that first month ugh not worth thinking about.
I so very much concur – easy…I dont know what that word means at the moment.
AW no way, Poodles and Labradoodles are hypo-allergenic if you ever want to have a doggy around the house 🙂
Runnergirl Im so sorry to hear about Mandy, your story is very similar to mine about how they bonded together. I understand where you’re coming from, I can’t not enjoy the memories of my pooch even though some have him in them, she will always be my little girl even though she was huge. But I will practice that, allow the memories but have a cut off point and move it on to the next.
I thought about it afterwards and say for instance I felt the uncontrolable need (thank god I didn’t) to contact him about her pups. I think it would of been selfish on my part, news, whether its good or bad no matter what spin I could try putting on it, its something that would evoke a reaction and probably not one I’d be expecting either. Yes he shared those memories with me and my doggy back when but the situation has changed.
Thanks you guys so much for your kind words, I don’t know where I’d be without this website with the genius that is natalie and the compassion of you extraordinary ladies. virtual hugs all round
Jennifer
on 01/10/2012 at 6:06 am
This speaks to me so loudly. My father was absent much of my life and when he was around he made it miserable by being his addict, narcissistic self. He is a cruel, violent man unable to empathize. This is not my fault. I recently cut ties with him. I am seeing more and more each day that in order for me to be safe, happy and healthy I must never allow him in my life. This hurts. He is my only living parent. He is closer to a monster than a father to me. I did not make him this way and he is not going to change. He is fifty and still the same selfish, controlling, and abuse father he was all my life. Some days I find myself thinking maybe now I’m strong enough to have a relationship with him. “I can handle it.” Then alarm bells go off and I listen. That “I can handle it” mentality is exactly what I had with my ex unavailable and you know what, turns out I couldn’t handle it. My health was in shambles and I was edging toward death with an eating disorder. Mr. Ex Unavailable nor my father cared. My father made comments about me losing weight as if it were a positive thing. I was extremely sick and looked it too. The thing is neither my ex, any of my exes for that matter, nor my father ever deserved me. My father never deserved that beautiful little auburn haired girl that he abandoned, brainwashed and abused. And he will never be worthy of me. Ever. I must cut all ties and move on. Some behavior is so repulsive and unacceptable that no one should ever get a second or seven hundredth chance to repeat it. I’m not saying I won’t ever forgive my father. But I’ll do it on my own time far, far away from him.
Revolution
on 01/10/2012 at 8:27 pm
Jennifer,
Brilliant comment. I’m sorry to hear about the neglected little auburn-haired girl. Sounds like she’s in good care, and well fed, now. Don’t worry. Her family will grow the healthier that her “primary caregiver” (you, of course) gets. Sending warmth to you. 🙂
Tinkerbell
on 01/10/2012 at 5:59 am
ColorOrange. Good girl with the NC. Work it, girl!!
Lilly
on 01/10/2012 at 12:08 pm
I’m having a meltdown! It has been six days and I haven’t responded to the exMMs offer to help me practice my interview techniques. I simply thanked him for the tips and left it at that. I won’t contact him as I refuse to demean myself, but I want him to contact me again! I’m feeling desperate for him to contact me again, I’m tearful, but I’m also feeling angry and resentful. He mentioned that he will be returning to the US next Sunday for a few months (he’s American but works here in Australia). He gets to go on with his life as if nothing happened. I’m trying to move on, but it’s so hard. It all hurts so much. I’m a grown woman, but I seem to have regressed and I don’t feel in control of myself. Runnergirl gave me some good advice (thanks Runner) and advised me to focus on why I was in that ‘relationship’ in the first place and I know it’s got something to do with my absent father who abandoned us when I was five, but I just can’t go there yet. What’s wrong with me?
Sunshine
on 01/10/2012 at 2:49 pm
Lilly
Breathe
Sink into your feelings
Some old wound is being restimulated here and feeling it all deeply will help it heal.
Regardless of what anyone says, this guy isn’t a monster and there is no way this experience hasn’t affected him deeply.
He hasn’t forgotten you, he hasn’t forgotten his baby no matter how it looks.
He has, however, chosen his path and this you must accept and face your own.
Sink into the feelings and be a safe space for yourself and allow the pain to surface and release and heal.
Breathe through it, let it roll like waves.
Sink deeper into the desperation, there is safety underneath all of those scary feelings, I promise.
You CAN and WILL live through this, you aren’t a small child, these are simply big feelings and your survival does NOT depend on this man in any way, shape, form or fashion.
Keep breathing, and let the feelings roll like waves…inhaling the feelings, exhaling release.
I’m holding you here in my heart right here right now. My baby says to tell you he knows your baby’s spirit and all is well, you are forgiven and you did everything perfectly and he lived exactly the life he needed to live. I hesitate to say this, but he’s insistent that I tell you there is a gift in this, he’s showing me a huge ruby, that you can’t see right now but it will come clear in time. (Compassion, he whispers).
Lilly
on 02/10/2012 at 7:07 am
Sunshine, I will have faith that there is safety underneath all these strong feelings. I know I’ve been avoiding and repressing my emotions. It feels safer somehow, but I can’t avoid them forever. I truly hope you are right and that he hasn’t forgotten the baby. It’s almost unbearable to think that he can just discard him as if he never was. I think it’s his lack of compassion for the baby’s passing that has hurt the most. Sunshine, the thought that someone is with my baby made me cry. I want him to be safe and I don’t want him to be alone. Thank you.
Sunshine
on 02/10/2012 at 2:04 pm
Lilly
In my imagination I gave my baby a beautiful mother to hold and rock him eternally.
So, often when I think of him, I see him being rocked by a beautiful woman, sitting by a window. She has kind brown eyes and infinite patience, milk, and is perfectly attuned to his every need. There is a loving father standing behind her, watching over them both.
More and more often I notice he’s growing and moving around and kind of tired of being a baby and as he stretches and grows I sort of lose track of him and the need to be so focused on him and feel him more as a living energy moving around me (wow just typing that up the scene dissolved and I feel a relief and now see/feel her image directly in front of my heart instead of off to the right like I’ve been seeing it).
You can choose companions for your son in your mind…the ‘real’ son has been buried, so the ‘alone’ one is only the one in your mind, which you do have some control over.
We can’t change the past or what happened, but we don’t have to be trapped in memories, punishing ourselves forever, either.
My heart feels so full of love and compassion for you right now..Lilly you are stronger than you know.
((((Lilly))))
Grizelda
on 01/10/2012 at 4:54 pm
Lilly,
I can’t improve on what’s already been said, but perhaps I can add a perspective.
You are at your own centre. That’s you, not he. You are the one in control of you. You are the sun to so many orbiting planets. The exMM is one of those planets orbiting you, near or far. Whether he’s physically in Aus or Stateside, it doesn’t change the fact he remains one of your many planets. Do not panic over his location because he remains in the same orbit around you every day. That won’t change until you want it to change. Leave him there, undisturbed, in orbit. In future, once the panic is gone and you feel steadier and better grounded in your feelings, you will be able to decide what to do about that planet and that orbit.
Lilly
on 02/10/2012 at 7:08 am
Grizelda, your comment “you are the one in control of you” is empowering and has helped calm me down. Your analogy was so helpful. I don’t want him to go yet as there are still some things I need to work out. Not with him physically, but in my own mind. So metaphorically speaking I will keep him there undisturbed until I’m ready to let go. He can’t leave until I say so and I will eventually say so. Thank you.
Learner
on 01/10/2012 at 10:44 pm
Lilly,
I am sorry you feel you are having a meltdown. Could it be the fact that the exMM’s leaving the country feels too close to the feeling you had as a child when your father left? Perhaps it feels like a somewhat permanent separation that you have no control over? I am not a psychologist, but I have had daddy-abondonment issues too, and I think a situation like yours might bring those feelings to the surface.
I can relate to the feeling that you want the exMM to contact you again, even though YOU have decided to go NC. It was my birthday on Saturday, and a part of me was hoping the exMM would email me happy birthday. he didn’t. It’s for the best. Your exMM is not contacting you. It is for the best.If he had contacted you, and then left, it may have hurt even more, I fear.
Whether your dad is with you or far away, and wherever the exMM is located, you, Lilly, deserve love, care, trust and respect. I hope these painful feelings run their course, do the work that is necessary to help make sense of things, and that afterwards you are left with a feeling of peace like you have never felt before. Talk to your counsellor about it, or to a close friend, keep posting here, and keep putting you first Lilly. I wish I could say more to help you feel better, but please know that many of us are here for you, are thinking of you, and wish you healing and love. Big hugs NC sister xxxooo
Lilly
on 02/10/2012 at 7:05 am
Learner,
I was hoping you were there. His leaving the country does feel like he’s abandoning me for good and yes, I believe it has everything to do with my father leaving when I was five (for an OW ironically). He died a few years later so I’ve never had the chance to work through anything with him. My poor mum suffered so much as she was left to raise three small children. It was planned apparently, but she says she had no idea at the time. He literally got up one morning and left. I remember my mum’s distress and my own. I’d idolized him. My mum is an amazing woman though and did a great job bringing us up. It was sometimes a struggle financially, but she was always full of love for my sisters and me. Perhaps understanding the parallels between my past and present will eventually help me get through this nightmare.
Learner, it must have been painful when he didn’t contact you on your birthday. I agree it was for the best, but I know it would have hurt. Happy Birthday for Saturday and I hope you celebrated with people who love and care for you. I will have a glass of wine and toast your birthday on the weekend.
Your wonderful support and that of others has really helped me and I’ve calmed down quite a bit. Coming here has stopped me doing something I’d regret. I honestly cannot take any more pain. Learner, I’m back joining you with NC. I know I’m harbouring some residual hope, but I will eventually let it all go. It’s the connection I feel with my baby and him that’s difficult. I still don’t understand it, but I will. Thank you my NC sister and hugs to you too, xx.
Learner
on 03/10/2012 at 8:54 pm
Lilly,
Your father story is very sad, but I am glad you have a loving mother to raise you. It’s good that you are feeling better about the exMM situation, and that you are reestablishing NC. Let us know how you get on. Thanks for the birthday wishes. Strength and love to you xo
Tulipa
on 01/10/2012 at 1:13 pm
Lilly
I don’t know if this will help but when going through all the emotional turmoil of the ex eum I learned you cannot rush the process it takes time to sift through everything and face things. Advice given to me at that time was to go easy on yourself and be gentle grief is a long process with setbacks along the way but there is light at the end of the tunnel.
Lilly
on 02/10/2012 at 7:09 am
Tulipa, yes I’ve been guilty of trying to rush the process. I was NC for three months, and thought I was further along than I actually was. It was necessary, but breaking NC to ask for a reference set me back quite a bit. I obviously cannot handle communicating with him at the moment and finding out he was leaving the country really set me off. I now have the reference and will keep moving forward. Thank you for helping me.
On Leaving Sugarland
on 01/10/2012 at 1:53 pm
“I cannot wish for what wasn’t. I can only appreciate what is, and this has a lot more value for me than anything I may think I’ve missed out on. I hope that you can do the same.”
Thank you for “this.”
God is my Father: my biological father and mother? I dunno…they ‘had’ me. Sometimes I think they did their best–they came from screwed up families, blah, blah– but other times I really don’t believe that; I think they could have tried harder to turn their lives around and become better people, make amends, and I feel a need to judge them…deem them weak, and swear never to be like them…, then I find myself reminding myself not to judge them; I feel compassion and mercy for them, then I leave it to God, but these feelings and decisions and emotions don’t come so easily as in some righteous fairy tale.
I have always wanted a ‘normal’ family. Yes, I think I missed out on having a ‘normal’ family, and around the holidays and special occasions it gets hard; for, this has been a source of my deepest pain–the pain–my pain.
I dunno…. I think my perspective is changing. I really get that “it is what it is.” I believe I have accepted that “this” is something that I can’t change; it still hurts though.
I love my son. He is my family, and I love God; I value them tremendously, and I think that “this” is how it is–there it is again..it just is…. I dunno…knowing it is what it is, doesn’t stop those moments where I feel all alone in the world, and sometimes holidays and special occasions really make me miss being a part of a ‘big’ loving family with aunts and uncles, cousins, and grand parents, and sometimes being around other people’s seemingly “big happy families,” oh, that hurts, and even when people mention their husbands, sometimes I feel sad…like I’m missing out….
I sometimes wish that I was still married, but I was married to the ‘wrong’ man, so….
I dunno if I am ever going to get married again; I don’t know if I am ever going to fall in love, to really love. After all, there are plenty of women (and men) who never find “that.”
I’m grateful for the love I share with my son and God. I am grateful for the opportunity and the wherewithal to gain understanding of what love is and what it is not, and I believe that I am capable of great love in many forms, and that I have yet to experience so many wonderful things in life that I think are coming my way; I have hope and faith.
Revolution
on 01/10/2012 at 4:26 pm
((((BIG hugs))))On Leaving Sugarland,
What a sweet comment. Thank you for sharing. I feel the same way that you do sometimes, especially around couples and families.
When I read your comment, it made me think of a conversation I had with a married friend of mine. I said to her, “I don’t want to be pitied for being single.” She looked at me with a deadpan face and said, “Girl, people don’t pity you. They ENVY you.” We both laughed, though she was serious. And she’s in a happy marriage too. Still, I loved her honesty. Made me feel good. Hopefully it will help to lighten the mood for you too. 🙂
On Leaving Sugarland
on 02/10/2012 at 2:23 pm
Awww, thanks Revolution, 🙂
Sending (((((BIG Hugs)))) your way!
On Leaving Sugarland
P.S. Hmmm, my perspective is stirring a bit
northstar
on 01/10/2012 at 2:18 pm
To all of you…we are kindred spirits for sure..
After seeking out article after article about why I keep becoming involved with unavailable AC’s, I had an internal epiphany almost at the same time as I came across this post!
To reiterate the comments here…I have discovered that my poor patterns of choosing men comes from learned behaviours from long ago…
It’s not my fault any more than it is my parents’ fault for raising me in a dysfunctional environment. It just happened…
Now that I recognize that the silent treatments, the emotionally unavailable Mom and the rarely available Father whom I placed on a pedestal as an only child – all contributed to why/how I make the choices I do….I can finally take the steps necessary to correct old habits! This is a big day!
I am not the scared, lonely, desperate to be loved little girl any more. I do not need smatterings of attention from AC’s to feel validated any more. The next time one of the two AC’s I have allowed to boomerange into my life the past 2 years shows up again, I will NOT be available.
I do deserve to be loved – all the time. I do deserve to be treated well – all the time. I do deserve to be cared about, cared for, protected and loved.
Not only do I deserve it, I will get it – because it’s going to come from me….
Thank you all for sharing…I am not the only one…yahooo!
Love to you all – from Canada xoxo
northstar
on 01/10/2012 at 2:24 pm
PS…an additional post. Do you know the type of guy I have gone out with for five years? Either military, police or firefighter.. NOT because I am a badge bunny – it’s because they SYMBOLIZE protection..
I was an only child – and have been a single Mom for 14 years…and although I have proven over my 46 years that I am capable of a successful, rewarding life alone – I always look for the type of man who could finally come and save me from a life of handling everything alone all the time..
Funny thing though – alot of these men are emotionally unavailable (they shut off from the stresses of the jobs), they have addictions (from the stresses of the jobs) and can only be available for me when the rest of their life is quiet. My father was always busy – and I got his attention on Sunday’s..in between his paper-reading and his naps. My Mother was too busy trying to get my Father’s attention so she neglected me…. and so I have gone after man after man who portrayed the exact same scenarios.
It wasn’t normal if I wasn’t chasing love and affection and needed someone to pay attention to me…
Wow.
Hope this helps others…
JR
on 01/10/2012 at 5:12 pm
“I was an only child – and have been a single Mom for 14 years…and although I have proven over my 46 years that I am capable of a successful, rewarding life alone – I always look for the type of man who could finally come and save me from a life of handling everything alone all the time..”
WOW Northstar. This statement of yours hit home for me. I’ve been alone a lot too. I wasn’t an only child per se but I was a LATE child and so I was alone most of the time like an only child (sisters all grown)and then I’ve been a single mom myself for a total of 6 years so far and it will be another 12 years until my youngest is an adult. Yes I do everything on my own and felt as though I kinda raised myself too because my parents were older and not as “hands on”. Although I don’t look to men with badges, I have looked for strong men who perhaps know how to take care of things and fix things around the house :).
Little Star
on 01/10/2012 at 5:21 pm
Northstar, thank you for your thoughts, that’s how I feel as you said: ” I always look for the type of man who could finally come and save me from a life of handling everything alone all the time..” I have few problems in my life right now and instead of facing them, I still hope that one day someone come and save/change it for me…Ughhh..
Misty
on 01/10/2012 at 2:26 pm
Hi everyone..I have been 120 days now with no contact with my 2.5 yr virtual friendship of someone in another country. I still feel extremely sad and I don’t know why? I have no urge to contact him when I thought I could not go one day without talking to him. It is a constant battle with my heart and my head. It helps to know so many people here are struggling like me. I come to BR to find more strength. I think this fantasy relationship is going to take longer to get over then one in “real” life. I am angry at me for the self destruction this has caused me. Why is it so hard to let go of the fantasy? I used escapism as a child to cope with dysfunction in my household and I suppose I am still doing it. Thanks to this site and all the great women out there!!!
imfree
on 01/10/2012 at 8:30 pm
hi, yes i know what you mean about using fantasy growing up. I had forgotten how much I did that as a child – even from an early age (primary school age)I had loads of fantasy’s about who I wished my mother was etc etc. The penny has only recently dropped that there is a link between this and the many dates/half baked relationships I have had, where 1 text = a few days fantasizing, 1 call = few weeks fantasy and a whole single date = months of dreaming. I must be mad!! I have also spent a year trying to get over someone where nothing actually happened. So difficult. I try to keep busy and remind myself of the not so nice side of him (vs the peddlestool version where he is The. Most. Perfect. Man.) I try and focus on me and sometimes even ask myself “how is this helping me to be thinking of x now”….
moonie
on 07/10/2012 at 12:32 pm
it is so hard to let go of the fantasy, because initially it made you feel so good. it’s like a drug. whether the relationship was ‘real’ or ‘fantasy’ doesn’t matter, the feeling is/was the same. you are going through withdrawal. i’m going through the same. it sucks.
On Leaving Sugarland
on 01/10/2012 at 2:50 pm
I think what you said about ‘connections’ is quite interesting.
Funny, I was just asking myself what I thought about the ‘connection’ that I had with my ‘ex’ because it seems to be the only thing ‘left’ between us, and I found myself wondering what he was thinking when he was looking at me with such intensity, and what he was feeling, as he always used to watch me from a distance and smile or seem to ponder, as I did him.
And, I remember feeling so ‘connected’ to him, and believing that he felt ‘connected’ to me.
Yet, he never told me: “Hey, I feel really connected to you,” and vice versa….It was more like something that I thought we both knew; something that didn’t need to be said because it was written all over our faces and conveyed magically through energy that was bouncing back and forth, from me to him, and back again….
I just know that it was this “thing”; this “thing” that I felt that made me decide that no matter what happened between us, we were meant to be together because we had this “thing” between us.
And, I remember with another ‘ex’, I even told him something like “I feel so connected to you,” and he in return called it a “bond,” and he said “I feel it too,” and sheesh it really felt like we were so powerfully connected, but again it was just this thing. This thing that had seemed to grow between us as we interacted with one another.
I dunno what ‘connections’ really are…hmmm, but these ‘connections’ didn’t stop one of my ex’s from, shortly thereafter, deciding that he wasn’t interested in being in a relationship with me, and in the case of my most recent ex, this ‘connection’ and how amazing and awesome he told me he thought I was…, well it didn’t stop him from telling me to “go to hell; f**k you; and you %^&*” when he got angry with me for not wanting to play virtual nasty with him, and ‘calling him on it,’ enforcing my boundaries and stating my limits etc.
And, I did not behave so well myself, despite this powerful ‘connection’.
I believe in connections, but I think some of them are only ‘connections’, and I think it takes the discovery phase…and all of the things that Natalie talks about … a progressive relationship, etc to find out which one it really is…there are real connections, but they are based in reality, and I like it when I feel connected to someone, but being ‘connected’ to me is just a feeling or the sensations of addiction or longing or…, and so I am willing to feel it, but it won’t stop me from using my head,…er, I can handle feeling ‘connected’ to my ex now because at the same time I am feeling that ‘connection’, I have other feelings and thoughts of “that guy abused me; I didn’t like that;he really hurt me; damn that hurt; he will probably do it again; I don’t want to be treated that way; it is too bad cuz I liked him, but it is what it is; I must have some childhood shit going on in this that makes me feel ‘connected to him; blah, blah; I don’t want his ass; I want someone who treats me better…lovingly, with care, respects me… and ….”
Huh. I don’t feel so ‘connected’ to him any more…most days anyway…sheesh…. 🙁 🙂
Rave
on 01/10/2012 at 10:30 pm
That connection, that “thing”, probably trigger something inside that is akin to a 6th sense or a 4th dimension. I think we might only experience this kind of magic with love or certain times in life when we feel in awe, such as in nature, being connected to a place.
Personally, I feel that it doesn’t mean that we can be together on the plane of reality. I think that’s why these guys can’t be in relationships with us. They might feel that incredible connection, but they can’t make it work in real life because the connection is from another plane of consciousness, way of being.
I think for the most part, as human beings, we do not use all our potential. I think this connection is probably the blissful way we should feel at all times, not just with men but with all living beings.
There is a magical side of life that we rarely get to touch, and these men, for some reason, open the door, lettings us have a glimpse of the magical, non logical side of life. Unfortunately, they do break our hearts and expectations on the reality plane.
I’ve experienced those strange connections where I felt like I had found my twin, to have the connection completely vanish, from the actions or non actions of my twin in heaven.
Possibly the magic is in us and makes us inspire people who don’t have the courage/ability to maintain a magical element in life, to get closer to us, without having the courage to stay so…
On Leaving Sugarland
on 03/10/2012 at 5:07 am
@Rave
There are some beautiful ideas in what you wrote. Yes there are so many magical things about life; it is such a beautiful gift.
I don’t want to ever forget to live, and enjoy my passions…just enjoy my days.
I am of the hope that you will connect with your Twin.
God Bless,
On Leaving Sugarland
Mymble
on 01/10/2012 at 3:09 pm
Lily
I would guess that the wY you’re feeling is a consequence of the recent communication with him and knowing that he’s going away soon. When the date has passed and you know he’s gone for a good long time you will find that although you may still feel sad the tension and anxiety will pass over. I started going to meditation classes and found that helped a lot when the feelings of panic and anxiety threatened to overwhelm me such that i could barely function or think about anything else.
It will pass over, whatever you do; but there are ways of getting over it quicker.
I believe “Getting Past Your breakup” is recommended as being helpful in this regard though I haven’t read it myself.
Lilly
on 02/10/2012 at 7:10 am
Mymble, you are right I’m clearly not able to handle any communication with him yet and the thought of him going away makes me anxious and sad. It’s difficult because he offered to help me so presumably still wants to be in contact with me, on some level anyway. I know instinctively to keep away and not take up the offer as I know more pain is in that direction, but I wanted to say yes so badly and re-engage with him again. I made the choice to ignore his offer, but it hurts. I could still take it up; it’s not too late, but I won’t, actually I can’t. Emotionally and physically I’m unable to take any more. I probably sound like I’ve lost my mind, but I’m just overwhelmed and a bit shocked at my reaction to a little communication. Thank you, Mymble. Knowing that others have experienced the same feelings and knowing they will pass is really encouraging and I will check out the book.
JR
on 01/10/2012 at 3:27 pm
Sorry you are in pain Lilly. You are doing the hard work right now…keep going and don’t reach out to him. You will only regret it and feel worse than you do right now.
I hear you and the others about the father thing. I’m not sure but maybe therapy is the best way to tackle that when you are ready.
I myself have struggled with this post only because I DO have abandonment issues and have made bad choices in men, including MM. But the catch is, I had a good childhood and my father was a good parent. No, he wasn’t perfect and my mother wasn’t perfect either but for the most part, they did a great job. My father was old school with leaving most of the child rearing to my mom and he worked a lot. I guess that was the biggest void he made but I can’t blame him for it. It’s what he knew, and he was providing for us the best he could.
I’m sorry so many of you didn’t have safe, loving homes. I can’t even imagine….and being a mom now myself my biggest priority are my children and their safety and well being.
So why am I struggling with these issues and picking bad men? I can only blame myself and try to make better choices. This place has been my lifeline for the past few months.
Lilly, I am wanting my AC to contact me again too, even if it’s only to ask me to come over for a shag (which it would be). If he does, I won’t respond. Last week he asked me to just come for a “naughty lunch” after not having asked me out for over a month, not speaking to me or even asking me how I am doing. Lilly, it’s a time for strength and to live our lives without these scum bags. WE WILL GET THROUGH THIS!
Lilly
on 02/10/2012 at 7:12 am
JR, The AC asking you to come over for a “naughty lunch” just makes me mad. I know the exMM used me for sex and it feels humiliating. Before we even had sex I told him (and myself) that I was likely to become emotionally attached if we went ahead. He (of course) told me he was already emotionally involved and I bought it. I wanted to believe it I suppose. This whole situation feels like a nightmare and I can’t wake up, but I’m determined to keep trying to move forward. This place has been a lifeline for me too. If I feel like reaching out to him I come here instead. It has saved me many times. Thank you for your encouragement JR and yes, WE WILL GET THROUGH THIS!
Revolution
on 01/10/2012 at 7:06 pm
I have been thinking about your post a lot in the past few days, Natalie. Also, I saw my EU on the beach over the weekend (from afar, and he didn’t see me, I don’t think). I was with a friend of mine, and when I realized it was him, we walked the other direction. (This yammering on DOES relate to this post, so wait for it… :))
Anyway, I was really sad to see him, and especially to see him with other friends that we used to hang out with together. I’m telling the friend i went to the beach with all of this, and she asked innocently, “Wait…but you were the one that ended it, right?” And I thought, yes. Yes, I did end it. So why does it feel like he is the one who abandoned ME? Partly, I think it’s because I felt like I had no choice BUT to leave. It was either that or lose my self-respect. But, of course, that’s a choice too, isn’t it?
Anyway, this led me to thinking about how I’ve left relationships all of my life. And though they were ended for good reasons (I never left a healthy relationship, because I haven’t had one yet!) I realize, after reading this post, another level of my pattern: it seems like I have an unconscious need to be the “leveler” of sorts. It’s like in the next generation executioner come to make up for my mother being cheated on and left. I’ve come to settle the score with these types of men. Hence my name, Revolution.
I remember when I was 18 years old, just before I left home, I sat on my bed in my room and heard my mom on the phone with her boyfriend after finding out that he was seeing other women. I was so hurt for my mom. And I was SO ANGRY that this was done not once, but twice, to my mother. A good and kind-hearted woman, she didn’t deserve those douche bags. I said to myself, “That will NEVER be me.” I think I just took on this feeling of trying to subconsciously avenge my mother by dropping the men I date on their asses. But, of course, that doesn’t solve anything. I know that now. I think I always knew that, though those subconscious coping patterns are a bitch, aren’t they?
So here I am. 35 years old. Not able to save my mother. Not able to make up for any of the crap she went through with men. Trying to find a way for all of that to be okay. Looking for a healthy man to share a life with who can appreciate my wild, but loyal heart.
kim
on 02/10/2012 at 12:53 am
we don’t *know* these people, and these people *don’t know us*
they don’t really want to know us, they are too limited in their abilities to know us, they are plainly incapable of knowing us.
Tinkerbell
on 02/10/2012 at 5:18 am
G-money.
SOOOOO Proud of you!
Spinster
on 02/10/2012 at 5:07 pm
This is timely. I know someone who needs to see this and I’m gonna e-mail her this link; she’s experiencing similar issues with her father at this very moment. I’ve also dealt with something (somewhat) similar with my father. I appreciate your frankness about your father so that it can help others.
teachable
on 03/10/2012 at 3:10 pm
I hear what you’re saying Anon. There’s no suggestion he’s been abusive to wife number two though. There’s much I could say but I’ll save it for the therapist. You know, all that work I’ve done, & I now realise, I haven’t really looked at him in any great depth. He went missing & that was that. I just accepted that was my lot in life. Something Gina said made me realise I have more work to do. I don’t want to seek a.father figure in a r/ship. I don’t think I would, as I made that mistake already as a young woman & vowed not to repeat it (so far I haven’t but who knows. Now I’m older & more fragile. It could.happen…) I’ve been asking the universe to bring love into my life when I am ready. I need to have hope. I’ve been single most of the past 17 years. I definately have trust issues. The story above is reason enough when it comes to men. I see it so clearly now. I thought it was some of the more traumatic things but what my adopted Dad did was bad enough. What that then led to is the stuff of your worst nightmares. I feel so different to most of you. I know I’m not but I sometimes feel it. I wonder if this is the low self esteem bug a boos. You’re all very inspiring. We’re very lucky to have this site & Nat’s posts & books to make us think & grow.
teachable
on 03/10/2012 at 3:25 pm
Selkie,
I often enjoy yr posts & admire yr spirit. I just wanted to say I’m so sorry to hear of the violence you witnessed by your father as a child. Your right he is abusive. What he did to your beloved animal’s is cruelty in the extreme, & a criminal act which would be prosecutable in many states, although it’s perhaps too late for that now. Your Dad does sound like he may be a psychopath also. You made the right decision. Take care of yourself. It’s ok to walk away in such situation for protecting ourselves must come first (I have done the same with my Mother). Big hugs. T x
teachable
on 03/10/2012 at 3:44 pm
Scarlett.
Google ‘repetition compulsion’. I believe this may be partly what you are expeiencing. It is where we experience a traumatic event (or series of events, in this case, your Mother’s abandonment), & we then involve ourselves in situtations where we re-expose ourselves to that same trauma in a compulsive way (repeated abandonment by your love interest).
It’s not a co-oincidence that you find yourself in such a predicament. The theory posits that you are attempting to gain mastery over the original trauma (in which you were powerless) but repeating it over & over in the new scenerio. That will not ocurr though as in fact what you ought to be doing is PROTECTING yourself from exposure to any further trauma, rather than re-exposing yourself to it again over & over, as the latter merely compounds the damage inflicted upon you, rather than heals you in any way.
That is just one aspect of your situation.
Also google, ‘love addiction’ & ‘co-dependency’. You ARE addicted to this guy just like he is addicted to drugs except your’s is a process addiction (an addiction to a behaviour).
This will get you started. Also get Nat’s books, including the No Contact Rule. This is going to be though a tough habit for you to break, but break it you must, for the sake of your sanity.
I wish you well.
Learner
on 03/10/2012 at 9:14 pm
Natalie,
“Of course this isn’t going to happen if a lot of your identity is based on your experience…of being parented by someone who was emotionally …absent and/or you’re living in the past.”
I am sorry you had the tension with your father on your wedding day. Those significant events can always intensify issues. I have also had conflict with my dad, and fought for his love and affirmation, but always felt a deep “connection” to him. This may explain my perceived deep connection with the exMM, which persists despite the knowledge that he is a womanizer, and is not good for me.
My dad has many issues (with alcohol, cheating, liking very young women, needing constant praise) and has not always treated me with love and respect. He has done some work on himself, though, and apologized to me in a letter a few years ago. There are some behaviours that still confuse me, though.
On Saturday he attended my birthday celebration. When I was opening gifts while guests were watching, he asked me to open his gift last. I honoured his request, and his gift was really nice – something he had made for me and had obviously taken considerable time and effort. The confusing part is – after I had opened it, he took it around to show each person individually. At this point I was hugging the guests/family to thank them for gifts. I didn’t get to hug him as he was in a different spot showing off his gift. He chastised me for not hugging him, so I hugged and thanked and praised him. I wonder if he had made that gift for me and me alone? Or was he merely seeking attention for *himself* for it? I don’t know why, but when it comes to my dad, I have a very hard time deciphering his motives. Hmmmm, I could say the same about the exMM. Very, very interesting!
grace
on 03/10/2012 at 11:38 pm
Learner
It’s easier to see from the outside but he needs approval. A lot. It points to insecurity, it’s not to excuse him but he’s just human. I hope things get better between you or at least bearable (let’s not hope for too much, ha). Sometimes age can mellow them.
Learner
on 04/10/2012 at 1:37 pm
Grace,
You were right! When I read your response that said he needed lots of approval, I emailed him to thank him again for his thoughtful gift. He replied with the longest email I have had from in ages, explaining how he came up with the idea to make it for me. It feels like he may actually be turning a corner in relation to me. I guess I need to keep giving him lots of approval (a bit of a hassle, but not too bad) to keep things “good” between us. I give him ego strokes, he treats me well – a small price to pay, I suppose!
teachable
on 04/10/2012 at 11:18 am
That’s true Arlena. I’m not religious. But I do pay attention to some of the values they teach (buddhist mostly). I sometimes envy people who arebut I have a different faith. No less strong but more organic. I did try religion, most earnestly, as a child. I could not reconcile it with my everyday experiences however. I prayed for protection, for my sister mostly, which never came. God ceased to exist for me then. I tried again when I was older. This time, I could not reconcile it with my scientific training. Alas, there are many ways to enlightenment. We can learn much still, I think, from the wise philosophers of many great religions. Even buddhism, at heart, though, has it’s share of dogma (sadly).
Spinster
on 04/10/2012 at 2:29 pm
Sent the link to the person, and she said that it was spot on just like her father. I hope that she begins reading the site, and I’m sure that she’s grateful to know that she’s not alone or “crazy”.
Hope
on 11/10/2012 at 6:39 pm
Hi Everyone, I needed some advice from my fellow BR readers and i was hoping I could get some help. . After having gone NC for about a year, I wished him happy birthday onhis birthday and we ended up speaking on the phone, this was after several attempts of him trying to get in touch with me. It was a catch up session during which he also asked me if i was seeing anyone to which i politely declined to answer. It’d been a year since I last spoke to him, during that time I gained a lot of perspective and I felt like I’d gotten over him, but after speaking to him I realized that that wasnt the case. I’m tempted to call him again but who am I kidding, if he were really interested he would have made the effort a long time ago. I guess I just miss him or the fantasy of us being together. The other thing that bothers me is that when we spoke on the phone he talked about gaining more perspective on life and it seemed like he’d changed and it has somehow made me feel like Ive lost out on someone I used to get along great with and had a ‘great connection’ with. The relationship was pretty non-existent, i never really got what I needed fro
Him and what had helped me go NC was the fact that he was a jerk, did some really mean things to me. Somehow the catchup session made me feel like i now needed to discount all the bad things in the past because he put up a/ or has become better person (?). I feel as if the main source of strength was derived from the fact that he was a jerk to me. Somehow my vacation time has been occupied by these thoughts and i just want to go back home and be depressed. My judgement is clouded because I dont know what tothink, i keep repeating the things i learned to help me gain my perspective back, but I feel like Im struggling. Why cant i be strong enough to let go? Why do people like him and I exist, it’s been a year , isnt it high time I got over this for a relationship that lasted less than two years? I txted him yesterday with a funny picture and didnt hear back, i guess i did that to test the waters. I miss him but i need my perspective back. Thanks in advance! <3
amanda
on 12/10/2012 at 6:56 pm
I don’t have any great advice to give because I am in the same boat you are. You sound like a deeply compassionate person. It also sounds like your love-object has been trying to get his act together. I don’t know what to say. As I say in my following post, I just rode that roller coaster again – allowed myself to be a UAM’s best friend and confidante 9 months after our love affair ended (he’s a MM and he went back to his wife and entered sex addiction therapy.) I tried in these last two months to support him in his recovery, but I knew, the entire time, that I was still too tangled up in my own feelings and love-addiction to be the true friend I hoped to be. Without explanation, he retreated back into his shell, and I feel rejected all over again. I think, somewhat unfortunately, that it takes more than a few months or a single year for two love-addicted people to be able to rebuild a healthy relationship. You probably need to experience that with someone with whom there has been no damaging history. Kudos to you for all the good work you have done last year. Don’t worry, you wont go back to square-1 for having contacted him, and for feeling insecure again. Your recovery from this bump will be much faster. Keep carving out space for yourself. Keep exercising compassion for yourself. Exercise compassion for him, but trust that he will get that active support from other people. You, ironically, will be able to be his true friend, again, once you are able to let go of all attachment to him. Much love!
amanda
on 12/10/2012 at 7:05 pm
There is no saying how long it should take to getting over someone (although I remember reading with sadness the cautionary tale of a life-long mistress who regretted the 30 years (!) which she had given up in pursuit of her MM). I suspect that we do not do ourselves a favor when we beat ourselves up about this. Beating ourselves up about our hang-ups is just another way to stay hung-up. Keep up the good work rebuilding the rest of your life. Are you engaged in other social activities, or activities which bring you out of yourself, like volunteering? I find that this helps me immensely, even though I am far from the model-example of recovery from fantasy relationships.
amanda
on 12/10/2012 at 6:38 pm
Boy oh boy. Timely. I’m picking up the pieces after falling off the NC wagon YET AGAIN. I am realizing that I never fully committed to NC in the past. The UAM whom I can’t shake runs hot and cold. I tell myself that I am NC when he chooses to go dark for weeks or months. Sure, in that time, I do not contact him, but the second he decides he wants contact, I’m right there. Guardedly, at first, but it doesn’t take me long to fall back in my MO of being the fall-back girl. For better or for worse, we don’t have sex or romance, but its still no different to be his confidante, his “best friend” (but only over e-mail) for the 2 months that he resumed interest in me over the late summer. There I was, giving him the daily ego stroke while he claimed to be in an “uncertain” place, again with his marriage. Then, a few weeks ago, his contact all but dries up. I spend the first two weeks beating myself up. What did “I do wrong”? Nothing, ladies and gentlemen. The UAM runs hot and cold, like clockwork. No need to lecture me. I feel enough like an idiot. What have I done, this time around? I have finally set up the e-mail filter that keeps his messages from making it into my Inbox. Symbolic, but its the most proactive thing I have ever done. Feels good to not experience constant waves of rejection when logged into my e-mail. I am interviewing therapists so that I can re-enter counseling and conquer my love addiction at its roots. This is the fundamental problem, not the UAM. He just added fuel to my fire. He’s the exacerber, not the problem.
Hope
on 13/10/2012 at 6:20 am
Thanks Amanda, I had some time to think about our conversation, it feels like he hasn’t changed. He’s still the smooth talker w/o any real kindness towards people. I just hope I can get over this soon. For reasons dating back to my parents and the ways that I was brought up has made me feel it’s ok for him to be disrespectful towards me, but speaking to my friends, they say that he’s a jerk and I am more encouraged to acknowledge that. Even if my judgement is clouded… if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck… you know how it goes. Amanda, the problem with guys like this, I’ve realized is that they’re selfish but they don’t realize that they are. They want to change but they don’t know what to change. They’re smooth talkers and we’re the opposite, thus we tend to attract. Idk if that makes any sense. Please let go of this person, not worth it. It gets easier after a year…but even then, it’s best to stay away all together. I feel better, a little shocked that I fell for it…I guess he was trying to make me forgive him but in a very sneaky way….no, he doesn’t get out of jail free. EVER.
amanda
on 13/10/2012 at 6:02 pm
Thank you, Hope. You hit the nail right on the head when you mention how these selfish guys don’t realize that they are selfish. They may think that they are doing the hard work to repair their lives and their relationships, but its not enough! The guy whom I have been stuck on is in many ways an upstanding fellow and has a big heart… EXCEPT when it comes to treating women well in relationships. And, its asking too much to expect two people who started out in a damaging relationship to both build the tools and perspective in a year or less to enter a truly healthy relationship.
Anyway, I’ve had an e-mail filter in place for 2 days, and, while largely symbolic, it does make me feel like I am more in control. It also sheds light on how I am the author of my own obsessive feelings. He doesn’t make me think about him all the time. I do it to myself. I am the one who makes myself miserable. I am hoping, with the help of a therapist, to free myself from these unhealthy thought patterns. Your perspective on your fellow seems right-on and smart. I hope that once the big feelings that came up from renewed contact abate, you can see that this episode was an opportunity for you to exercise your new skills and better judgment. You saw right away through his smooth talk. You might not have been able to do that a year ago! As painful as it was to put yourself through that test, you emerge victorious, knowing that the hard work you have done has paid off.
Hope
on 14/10/2012 at 7:29 am
Thanks Amanda! It’s baby steps, everything takes time. 🙂 So take your time, even if it’s just setting up a filter, gotta start somewhere. I think reading BR definitely helps me keep my destructive emotions at bay. I started off by not listening to music that reminded me of him, I swore off music for the first 3 weeks of my quest to forget him, people thought I was crazy…but after that I was listening to music because I wanted to , not to remind myself of him. I guess what I mean is, to each her own. 🙂 I think I’m fortunate to have a lot of friends who are in good relationships to remind me what they’re supposed to be or what they should resemble, it’s taught me a bit as to what my EUM was doing…which was hurting me. I also like to remember that if it didn’t work out >2 times…it’s not going to work but there are 2 billion people in the world and we need to learn to give others a shot. So hang in there and I think all we need is conviction towards bringing the focus back to us…as Nat points out. 🙂
I’ve been running Baggage Reclaim since September 2005, and I’ve spent many thousands of hours writing this labour of love. The site has been ad-free the entire time, and it costs hundreds of pounds a month to run it on my own. If what I share here has helped you and you’re in a position to do so, I would love if you could make a donation. Your support is so very much appreciated! Thank you.
Copyright Natalie Lue 2005-2024, All rights reserved. Written and express permission along with credit is needed to reproduce and distribute excerpts or entire pieces of my work.
Manage Cookie Consent
To provide the best experiences, we use technologies like cookies to store and/or access device information. Consenting to these technologies will allow us to process data such as browsing behaviour or unique IDs on this site. Not consenting or withdrawing consent, may adversely affect certain features and functions.
Functional
Always active
The technical storage or access is strictly necessary for the legitimate purpose of enabling the use of a specific service explicitly requested by the subscriber or user, or for the sole purpose of carrying out the transmission of a communication over an electronic communications network.
Preferences
The technical storage or access is necessary for the legitimate purpose of storing preferences that are not requested by the subscriber or user.
Statistics
The technical storage or access that is used exclusively for statistical purposes.The technical storage or access that is used exclusively for anonymous statistical purposes. Without a subpoena, voluntary compliance on the part of your Internet Service Provider, or additional records from a third party, information stored or retrieved for this purpose alone cannot usually be used to identify you.
Marketing
The technical storage or access is required to create user profiles to send advertising, or to track the user on a website or across several websites for similar marketing purposes.
This makes so much sense. My dad bailed, didnt bother, then died before I had the chance to find out what his problem was. He was a perfect dad to his other kids, not interested in me. That stuff eats at you – for a long time this guy I didnt know commanded to much head space. Long before he died I realised that this wasnt my problem, it was his problem, and all I ever wanted from him was to feel some kind of fantasy that he actually did give a shit. But he didn’t. Ever. Not even pretended too. Once I realised that I was my problem – things became easier, and actually, it didn’t matter anymore. I moved on. When he died, I was sorry for the situation, but there was no hurt or grieving going on – I mean, I didnt know him at all.
Yabbering on now… will stfu!
Hope your jaw gets better soon, we need chinwags! xx
“When he died, I was sorry for the situation, but there was no hurt or grieving going on – I mean, I didnt know him at all.”
Hmmm, this sounds oddly close to what I told my mother (who I think feels guilty about picking him to have kids with). My father is still alive, but has never made a consistent effort to get to know me. I was told that I should reach out to him. I said that there was nothing to really save, I don’t know him and he doesn’t know me. It’s unfortunate but hey, that wasn’t really my doing. As the guilt trip continued, I was asked how I would feel if I got a call saying that he had passed. A hard question to answer since none of us truly know how we will feel when any family member passes, but I digress. I said something pretty close to what you said, I would think how unfortunate is was that we never had a father daughter relationship and that we never knew each other. But when there is nothing to restore, how can you feel as though you’ve lost something?
That’s right Lia…. we dont know how we will act. I certainly didn’t, but now I dont feel like I have missed anything. I did go to his funeral, but as I sat in the car looking at all the people who were there, I realised I knew no-one, and no-one would know me – his daughter. I didn’t need to hear what a wonderful man he was, what a great father etc, because to me, that was bollocks. So instead, I didn’t even bother getting out the car. I drove off, but felt better for actually going and deciding not to go, if that makes sense.
‘I cannot wish for what wasn’t. I can only appreciate what is ….’
I finally broke down with these words. I knew that whilst I have been much better since the relationship with a deceitful man endend (and I started reading this blog site), I have found it very hard to let go of the anger. It doesn’t consume me as much as before, but there are still days when I think about what he did, and what could possibly be the reasons why.
Though I am not chasing him … I seem to continue to chase after connections. By this I mean backtracking and trying to understand and establish the connections, where none may actually have existed. I’m not only ‘chasing pavements’, but worse, I running backwards, and living in the past …. WHEN there is a whole future right ahead of me, and ‘me’ which I need to work on.
I’m scared that pain may have become my comfort zone, if that is possible. Or worse fear … I fear to take bigger steps and taking chances because I might fail, or things might cause me to fail, like I did in the relationship. It’s a bizarre idea, illogical even BUT the feeling just won’t disappear.
Dear Natalie,
I have followed your blog since Jan. Two months after the parting of my math professor and me.
I have tried to read every post and response from your archives. (When I
get up each day I ask myself, I wonder how my friends runnergirl,grace, yoghurt etc are today).
I think a common thread for our BR community is that we loved someone, and they baffled us with their behavior. And commonly we ask why on earth did we love them? We research all the abnormal psychology personality disorders (I could have my PHD in narcissism and aspberger’s now). And yet I think the underlying reason why we are so enamored of the one we loved is almost Shakespearean. It all comes down to our parents.
Bottom line we want to please our father’s and have their unconditional approval. I loved my math professor in my 20’s and then again recently, not so much because he was a great guy (not) but because I projected my need for his validation as my father figure. I think those of us who have the longest and most painful time processing the rejection/loss/emotional unavailability of a man we invested in, trusted, were optimistic that out affection and good nature would lead to a loving relationship but
instead lead to disappointment need to see it was him, not us. We hotly pursued a father figure, not a truly capable partner.
Hi Simple Pleasures,
Runnergirl here, thank you for thinking of me as a friend. Natalie has created such an amazing site where we can connect. I look forward to the comments by Grace and Yogurt too. Fearless and Learner are amazing as well. Too many amazing women to name. I agree, our parents, both mothers and fathers influence our adult relationships. Natalie is spot on for me when it comes to cleaning out the cupboard, re-folding, and re-organizing.
So this really happened last week. I came home from class, my daughter was home and I said as usual “hi sweetie”. Her response: “Mom there is a situation upstairs”. I froze in my tracks in the laundry room. A situation upstairs! Dear lord, thought I. Turns out my 23 yro daughter decided to deep, very deeply clean her rooms, including more laundry than any laundromat has ever seen. I’m not sure what this means. She is in high gear re-organizing her cupboards. Mostly all I can do is stay out of her way. I volunteered to help and she finally accepted my help as the sweat was pouring down her brow. Now the living room is covered with her clothes, clean and folded. I have no idea how all the clothes are going to get upstairs! It doesn’t matter. I’m just loving her and the moment. She’s cleaning her cupboards. Soon she’ll be gone and some guy will be wondering how all those clothes will get upstairs. Give your kids a giant hug. XXOO
simple pleaures,
“Bottom line we want to please our fathers and have their unconditional approval.” Yes, I am right there with you, and many others on BR. I agree it’s wonderful to check in here to see what our BR friends have written. It really does help with recovery.
runnergirl
Thank you so much for the mention. It brought a tear to my eye (and btw, I am with you re: the PMS *plus* the “PMP”, i.e., perimenopause stuff which makes tears come so easily and is not fair!) Sometimes I *still* feel like a slow learner, and like what I say makes no sense, but am so encouraged by the support of you and others on BR. For this post of Natalie’s, I think I need to let it steep in my brain for a day or two. There are a lot of “deep” ideas there that are hitting close to home for me, and I will be seeing my father later on today, so hoping that will go well.
I love the story of your daughter getting organized! Can she come over and clean up my daughter’s room next? Kidding, but it’s a lovely thought 🙂
Simplepleasures,
“I think those of us who have the longest and most painful time processing the rejection/loss/emotional unavailability of a man we invested in, trusted, were optimistic that out affection and good nature would lead to a loving relationship but
instead lead to disappointment need to see it was him, not us. We hotly pursued a father figure, not a truly capable partner.”
You just hit the nail on the head girl! Thank you!
AH, I can relate to this one. I haven’t spoken to my Dad in probably 15 years. He was very cold and just didn’t care about the damage he was inflicting on his family. (liar, cheater, con man {for real} , emotionally abusive, neglectful) I believe he knew, but just did not care. My parents had very traumatic fights (broken windows, knives thrown, guns pulled out, screaming, crying )in front of my brother and me, then followed by silence for days and days. People who knew him would say what a great guy he was ( con man! ). We lived in a secret hell. When I was 17, I finally told him I knew how ugly he was under his veneer. Telling me I was crazy wasn’t going to work, and he got it right away. It took him no time to forget I even existed. I sent cards for a few years, etc but never got a response. When my Mom and I moved out and away from him during my senior year i high school (not on speaking terms), he let our family dog and horses starve to death. We didn’t know until later and that alone weighs on me more heavy than losing my relationship with my Dad. to this day it makes me sick inside. That is just one example of the coldness he was capable of. I knew there was no resolution here, no fixing, no remorse, no working it out and no recognition of the hurt he caused. He was a narcissist ( a sociopath too?), a true one. Text book. I let it go, and just moved on with my life. I serve as a reminder of the ugliness that resides inside him, and I don’t think he can bear to look at me, because that would mean facing himself. It sucks I really don’t have a Dad anymore, but it is a lot less painful this way. My job today is to be mindful of the emotional scars from him I may carry into my relationships today….one being fear of abandonment.
I don’t want to sound like an emotional downer. This is one aspect of my life I feel like I did right by me. My brother still tries to have a relationship with my Dad and he ends up disappointed over and over.
Oh my gosh Selkie how awful…the pets. How horrible for you. How truly horrible.
He should have gone to jail for that; how could someone do that to poor animals?
You are absolutely right to not want to have anything to do with ca coldblooded killer.
((Hugs))
Selkie that is terrible… and I´m so sorry about the pets.
I just remembered something with my own EUM and con man (or almost, long story) father. When my mom was very sick, with very little posibilities of recovery, he left her for someone else and me too. (Notice I was about to become an orphan from mother.)
Anyway, things didn´t work out with the OW and he went to live alone. I did my best to reestablish some kind of relationship with him.
I found an abandoned kitten in the street and asked him if he could keep it. He said yes! Now visiting him was so much fun because there was this sweet little kittie, named Letizia, waiting for me!
But about a week later he had given the kitten away. Just like that, without even telling me.
I was seeing a therapist at the time. I told her I was thinking about giving my father a turtle instead, maybe he wouldn´t mind keeping a pet like that for me, it could just live in the garden and wouldn´t bother anyone.
Her interpretation was as follows: I had given my father a little girl (the kitten) to take care of, but he renounced that responsibility.
So, I was figuring how this little girl should behave to maintain a father for her. A turtle doesn´t make much noise, doesn´t bother anyone.
It is like an accomodating daughter, someone who doesn´t ask for much. I was turning myself into a fallback girl to get some of his crumbs.
Isn´t it sad, how we become self- choppers? I´m so glad you´ve been able to move on, Selkie. But I can imagine the terrible scars the experience with your dad left you, I´m with you.
Oh Selkie…hugs to you my dear. I am so very sorry that you and your family and pets had to endure this man. Keep doing the work and the recognizing of how this may affect your relationships. The man I am seeing had a father who was capable of what you describe and had many issues — the man I am dating said “sorry” to me about his back story. I told him it was never his fault. Like being born into people who are poor or rich or French or American, we can’t help what we are born into. It’s not our fault. BUT we can choose LIFE, live on and break their horrible cycle. You are doing brave things and learning how to break that cycle. HUGS
Thanks all. Yes Lilia, we learned at an early age to become ‘less trouble and not a bother’ to try and squeeze out some love. It’s obvious sometimes why we have issues in our relationships as adults when our parents either sculpted us into dysfunction or neglected us into unhealthy longing and insecurity. The flip side, we get to decide what choices to make as adults. We have to relearn and teach ourselves what it means to be whole and happy. It’s no easy task, but it is possible with dedication to oneself. The parent thing is hard, it was our model in most cases to emulate. We didn’t didn’t get to choose as a child and didn’t know any different….but we do now. When people ask why I no longer speak to my Dad, it’s a hard question to answer really. He’s an ass? He was a bad Dad doesn’t come close. I’m so far removed from it now, people seem perplexed by my lack of emotion in my answer. It’s more reflected in the private tearing down and rebuilding of myself I’m in the middle of.
Sending you a great big cyber hug Selkie!!! I am SO sorry that you had to endure such horrible treatment when you were growing up! Your dad was definitely a sociopath. Good on you for cutting ties with him!!! I, too, grew up with a violent and abusive dad. He would beat my mom and his girlfriends (who would intervene to keep him from beating me) mercilessly. When I turned 17, he finally left us alone. I remember hitting him with a broom when I was in my early 20s. It was revenge for the awful way in which he treated me and my mom when I was growing up. By then he was physically broken down from years of drinking and a mere shell of the man that he used to be. After I hit him, I felt absolutely HORRIBLE! He just stood there looking old and pathetic. When I realized that I had stooped to his level, I stopped and walked away. That was a sad and shameful day in my life. Both he and my mom are dead now (she was verbally and emotionally abusive). I made peace with them a long time ago… now I just try to live the best life that I can, and to be the best person that I can. Through counseling I learned that I look for the love I did not receive from my dad in EUM. Older and wiser, I am working hard on breaking that pattern. And by the grace of god I will succeed.
Gina, I’m with you on working hard on breaking the pattern of ‘looking for love in all the wrong places’. We will succeed, however now that we know we do that. Before, I didn’t even get it. BR opened my eyes to it. We can’t stay victims forever, and why would we want to, it’s not a happy place. So sorry your Dad subjected you to abuse, and your Mom too. I have a son and the last thing I would EVER want to do is hurt him in any way. It baffles me when parents hurt their kids.
Natalie, Natalie, Natalie…damn again! Standing ovation for this post. What cut like a knife and echoed my own realization was, “We. Don’t. KNOW. These. People”. Jackpot. It’s sad to say that I’ve had this very thought with most of my intimate relationships: I never knew who they really were. I didn’t know what made them click. I didn’t know what moved them. I didn’t know how they felt about me. I knew very little to nothing. This was also the case with my father. My father was /is an EUM. He wasn’t there for me or my brother. He abandoned us and blamed my mother (and us) for his absence. Saying that my mom didn’t want him around. Or that we (the kids) never called HIM so he just didn’t bother. He’s never wanted to take ANY responsibility for his actions. He lives in complete denial covered in self righteousness and lies. “I’m the father, you need to call me!” My goodness.
I also made two attempts to bury the hatchet and forge a relationship with him. First time was when he lost his mother and sister a year from each other. I had moved back east from attending grad school on the west coast and called him two months after I had been situated. He immediately went into victim mode and started turning the tables on me about why I hadn’t called him…that he thought I didn’t love him. Once I threw reality in his face he shut up about it, but continued to act like HE was the one that was wronged. To make a long story short, I ended the relationship after I realized I was going to have to pretend like everything was fine. After I had to act like he was a loving father around his family (who knew the truth but never wanted to talk about). I just couldn’t do it. He hadn’t changed. He was still the same selfish man that I remembered as a teenager. It was always about him…and I was expected to carry the burden of the truth on my shoulders. Never putting it down. Never releasing it. What about my feelings? What about me? To conclude, I broke the silence again earlier this year after talking to a cousin who felt that the past should remain the past. My father wasn’t getting any younger and I didn’t want to have any regrets, right? As per his usual, he started the guilt trips, playing the victim and putting the blame on me for our lack of communication. As per my usual, I introduced reality back into the conversation but pretended to fall back in step with the “let’s pretend like nothing happened” charade. We had a few conversations that ended with him telling me how much he loved me and cared for though his actions have never mirrored his sentiments. I’d say I loved him too and could feel my gut turn.I felt no love for him. I was disgusted, angry, full of resentment and bruised for never being able to say to him that he hurt me…deeply. I was being a fraud. Denying myself. Being a good little girl. After making the decision to visit him at our cousins house (didn’t offer to come get me or drive me home because he hadn’t figured out his GPS) I realized that he could only be with me if other people were present…he didn’t want to be alone with me. When I inquired about him coming to see me, he just had more excuses. I had to draw the line again when he said he would come support me by attending one of my performances and he never showed up. Hasn’t called me since and that was two months ago. And I wonder why I have so many issues with men. I’ve been dating my father all my life.
Apologies for the typos:-)
Wise girl if there’s any. Thank God for you 🙂
Firstly thanks to phoenixrising, tinkerbell and araphe (sp?) for responding to my comments and concerns 2 posts ago; just got your feedback ladies, this work week has been brutal lol but it was much appreciated though read too late.
Wow, re; this, what a lovely post in a sad but hopeful way. This paragraph pretty much succinctly summed up my entire 46 year relationship with my “dad” if one can call him that.
“I think what really ‘knocked’ me about this experience is that realisation that you’ve forgiven someone, given out chances and then realising that they don’t really ‘get it’ and in fact, when you’ve thought that they were sorry and regretful, they sort of were, but they weren’t, or at least not in any way that truly got reflected into their subsequent actions.
This is the same thing that upsets many people – realising that you’ve made an effort to get past things, to make peace, to let there be a chance, and then the first time you put a foot wrong or you get into a conversation about the past, it becomes evident that you’re on two totally different wavelengths or possibly even different planets.It hurts to realise that you’re alone with your realisations and they just don’t give a beep.”
Yes it does hurt and it also makes me realize why it bothers me so, to have shallow relationships with men who I date after the initial getting-to-know-you period. I have had that with my dad my whole life and I just don’t have time for any more shallow men in my life. At. All.
More to the point, the not- knowing-them comment was accurate yet v upsetting; no I don’t know him, I never will, he does not know himself, there very well might be nothing to know…I don’t think that there probably is in fact. and what is both worse and better is I don’t care anymore to know him; the last visit home was the “suck it and see” and I don’t need to see anymore even.
It is funny; the last few weeks I found out some unknown truths about my last relationship and it would have hurt me deeply a while back but now it just…I don’t know if I am hardened, mature, whatever, but I honestly hurt for a day or two and now, I just am back in my groove and to be honest I don’t even feel like I want a relationship right now; if it happens, it happens, but I feel really happy right now, with my cats, my freinds, my job, my house, and my little dance classes and hobbies and such.
So on to make a little pasta (still stocking up pics for my food blog idea) and a bath and then a book after BR; the perfect Friday decompression night
Good night y’all:) Sweet dreams!
Natalie, this post means a lot to me – thank you. A lot of the work around figuring out why we end up with ACs, and the work once we dump them and focus on ourselves, has to do with these core relationships – some of which don’t leave our lives even when we boot the ACs.
It’s helpful to see that someone who has enjoyed and earned the relationship success that you have still has to live day-to-day and still has to figure out what hurts if something hurts.
I’m at a conference right now in the US where I am meeting, for the first time, many of the people whose work I have been reading and citing for years. I have gone up to and introduced myself to a number of ‘bigwigs’ and some of the people I thought would be receptive have been … I dunno … well, I’m not feeling the vibe. One woman excused herself from a meeting with me and when she left I felt the call of the old path of “living with it badly”: telling myself I embarrassed myself, that I came off like an idiot, and facing the prospect of enduring the rest of the weekend here at the conference like that.
Instead, I “lived with it well”: I said to myself, hmm, that didn’t go the way I’d hoped. Let’s not assume I did anything to cause what feels like her rejection of me; let’s just be like, oh well, what now? and move on. I’ve been moving about this highly-charged networky gladhanding space with a mantra of “if it feels like crap to talk to them, it’s not worth it and not a good fit” and “someone else’s behaviour is not a reason to feel like crap for a moment past leaving their company”. This has helped me to not go into “I must win them over” mode with the people who have been cliquey. Like I wrote a little while ago – I want to do this networking thing differently.
And all of that has made this conference quite successful so far, I think. I’m presenting my big idea of my 5-year dissertation work to some of the most important figures in my field tomorrow and I know I’ll do okay. I can’t afford to not feel consistently alright about me.
I see myself, while here, as a writer, sure, but also as the girl who wants to be heard, a girl who always had to argue and fight for attention from her father, and who could idealize this moment, and all these people.I.don’t.know as the ones who will finally validate me.
In some ways, these moments and what I accomplish personally by being here are too important to me to allow feeling good about me to depend on the reactions of people I don’t even know.
It might not be a perfect fit in terms of topic, Natalie, but I take a lot of inspiration *right now* from your post. Thanks!
Magnolia,
If you’re on either coast of the US, just be reminded that most people you meet are going to be self-involved a-holes. It’s not you. It’s a culture-shock to a lot of outsiders, but we here on the coast States are used to it. How sad. But don’t take it personally.
Sure, maybe that sounded a bit harsh (and blanket statements are never fair, of course), but you commenters in the US coastal States….you know what I’m sayin’.
Thanks for the tip, Revolution. It has actually been pretty awesome. I got a bit swept up today, trying to impress the older established folks. Now I’m back in the hotel room and, reviewing, I think it all went fine. I met some good people and folks came up to me after my talk, so I’m glad I came.
I’m glad, Magnolia. Yes, there are good and bad everywhere, huh? I think it was just my overly-pessimistic PMS persona talking, lol. Pay me no mind. 🙂 Glad it worked out.
Natalie,
GREAT post.
If I may, I’d like to add to this. I prefer to “label” toxic others as pathological (narcissists, sociopaths, psychopaths) as that is the work I do in supporting survivors of said disorders.
One of the biggest epiphanies I’ve had this last week, has been about empathy. We think we have connections, we see “love” that isn’t there, even with our pathological parents. Empathy is as natural to us as BREATHING. A lack of it out of toxic others, ie: their BULLSHIT, is equal to our empathy: like breathing.
It isn’t toxic people that complicate things. It’s us. It’s giving benefit of the doubt with our empathy to others who are not deserving of it. Including those who have abused us in the past, including PARENTS. They are what they are, they do what the do, they will NEVER change, it’s WE who do all the changing, accommodating, fantasizing, doing mental gymnastics and putting ourselves into pretzel position to make it look like anything other than what has been, is and does: Abuse and bullshit. When we become AWARE we cannot take it back. When we try to adjust to THEIR abuse or disorder or bullshit,our empathy becomes a curse, not a blessing. We give it FREELY to those who do not, won’t and don’t care to change, but don’t give it to ourselves. This is why there are so many victims. Why we continue to victimize ourselves. Those who are abusive or are disordered have to do nothing, we do it all FOR THEM.
Letting go hurts, but not doing so creates an anxious RESISTANCE to truth and awareness. All for a “love” that is absent and has been. I hope you continue to find healing about your father. I have been NC with my FOO for 3 years now. Best thing I ever did in showing empathy and love to MYSELF. Blessings!
AMEN Kelli! AMEN! The hardest thing for me is learning to give the love and empathy back to myself instead of bestowing it upon others who could care less. I do not think that I will be able to find a truly fulfilling and rewarding relationship until I actually put this into practice.
Very intuitive and heartfelt post, Natalie. I often wonder if my daughter experiences the same feelings about her absent father (who never/rarely bothered his shirt with her… it’s a long story – yawn – and yet there’s nothing to tell, kind of thing). Funny how I hear that he sings my praises as a mother and is as proud as punch of his now grown (very beautiful and lovely) daughter. sheesh. Funny thing is that now she’s a lovely young woman he has tried to pay her more attention – she scorns it (not to his face but he can’t fail to notice her lack of interest in his feeble attempts to connect with her! She has said that he has a nerve!).
I have always told her that she is wonderful, that it’s not about her; that it’s his failing, not hers and that while she got a short straw (which I take the blame for) there are many children who pulled a shorter one – that many children are utterly abandoned, without family at all and denied the love and care of both parents. She gets that. Thankfully. I know she thinks she’s had a good mother, and she likes that. But I never really discuss(ed) her father with her; I guess I never wanted to point out to her things she might feel that she actually isn’t feeling – why tell her how crap she should feel.
My father was “there”. a good provider for the family but he was a barrel load of trouble and strife. Drinker. Terrible temper. Insecure man. We walked on egg-shells. I went through periods of hating him. But in my later adult life I just accepted him for who he was (and he mellowed a lot). It just is. They just are. It’s not us. We don’t need to be loved by everyone. Dare I say it, not even by our own father. Nice if you can get it, tho. Not the end of the world if you don’t. We can harbour our resentments or we can just accept that some people are badly wanting and those people are fathers (and mothers) too. When I accepted my dad’s humanity, with all it’s flaws (and he had more than his fair share!) I learned to stop looking back at the past hurt he caused me. It just was. I’m big enough to handle it. So are you. I hope so too is my own daughter. I believe she is.
Fearless, your daughter has the very best mother and I’ll bet dimes to donuts she knows that. My daughter has always been close to her father, despite the fact he failed to support her financially. I don’t know what effect that will have down the road. Yup, he sings my praises too (and he damn well should) and he is so proud of her. I think I’ve finally moved into acceptance with regards to my father’s flaws. It just was. Nicely stated. Give your beautiful daughter a big squeezy hug.
Another thought: I think much of the angst you speak about is based on indecision about where exactly to put this kind of stuff. As with the ‘connection’ we feel with those we barely know – we are ‘in’ then we’re ‘out’. We are either trying to re-connect or we’re ‘done with it’ in cycles. The mind never settled. We vacillate, we jump about from wanting to not wanting to not wanting to want. We can never settle on one single mind-set about it, so it causes us to feel all betwixt and between, disturbed, unsettled. this was me with the EUM. My internal vacillation went on for years. During a difficult period of NC when I was feeling ill with the angst of it all, desperate to re-connect with him and desperate not to, two words you said hit right home for me: learn acceptance. Arrive at the one place about these men, whoever they are, and live there. That’s been a good lesson in life for me when I adopt that position – it settles the mind (and that’s a wonderful thing).
Truer words have never been spoken, Fearless. You’ve strucken me momentarily speechless (which, even momentarily, that’s a feat).
I love a person who is emotionally unavailable. It is not a healthy thing to do for me! It has been 5.5 years and no commitment from him. So 2 days ago I told him that he is selfish to continue to be in my life knowing that I want more but knowing he cannot totally commit. I have not heard from him since then!!! Silence says it all. This time I want to get over it. I wanted to text to ask him if he was ok, but then I realised that he hasn’t asked how I am. No contact is difficult after spending so much time together but it is the right thing to do?? x
Fairy, 2 days is a short time after 5 1/2 years. He may show up again, wanting to press the reset button, or he may not.
It’s about what YOU decide is right – if you’ve decided you’re finished with this relationship, then there is no need to follow up with him, and you might give some thought to how to stick to your decision if he comes back around.
Thanks for that Fearless. I think you’re right. Acceptance as the last stage of the grieving process is typically the most difficult. What did you do to get through that? Journal? Did you make a list of sorts? Was it good old-fashioned will-power?
Laurie,
no, I didn’t journal (I’m a bit lazy about these things and they make me feel a bit silly – but it’s not silly; if it helps do it!). I did write out my boundaries – and got a shock at what I was actually putting up with. I think I just wore myself out with it all; I came to realise that I really had to take better care of my emotional health, to look to what was good for me, and the ex EUM, and thinking about it all, and trying to figure it out was very bad for my emotional health and not good for me. Eventually, and with reading Nat’s blogs by the barrow load, I came to think that there is no answer – it’s not a puzzle, it just is. He is just is who he is. The answer doesn’t lie with these men or what they do or don’t do; they are not that complicated! They are up their own arses. They are clueless. And that’s all it is. Take them or leave them, but take them or leave them for the clueless, self-involved people they are and get on with making the best of your own life, not because of them but despite them. Count your blessings (not your curses)sounds trite, but that’s the way forward.
Thanks, Fearless. It makes sense and goes along with a comment from grace about skydiving and “just doing it”. It’s funny, because it reminds me of the first time I went bungee jumping. I was so excited to do it, but when I climbed up to the platform I panicked. I actually act the attendant if he would push me (!) because I didn’t think I could do it –everything in my body was fighting it. Of course he didn’t push me, and I just had to have faith and jump.
“I came to think that there is no answer – it’s not a puzzle, it just is. He is just is who he is. The answer doesn’t lie with these men or what they do or don’t do; they are not that complicated! They are up their own arses. They are clueless. And that’s all it is.”
Brilliant. Thank you. Now’s the time to jump 🙂
I like how you went Buddha at the end of this one Natalie. :). It is what it is! Sometimes people just suck and you can’t polish a turd…. Great reading, thank you.
OC, I just laughed out loud at what you said! We know because we’ve all tried! That’s a great image for me to conjure up when I think of any of my jerk ex’s ….a turd I tried to polish. Call it Revulsion therapy!
Also, I just have to say, Kelli you are a bad ass with your analysis in the previous comment. Clear as a bell and spot on! Happy weekend.
Ohhhhh another on point post! Particularly “…isn’t actually unconditional love; it’s loving without self-esteem and boundaries”. It’s funny how I can feel such intense love for a man who has limited interest in me, yet I struggle to even like my mother who was so unloving, critical, and occasionally violent in my childhood. Maybe I am just trying to ‘win’ affection from him to ‘prove’ I can make someone love me, where I ‘failed’ with my mother.
My mother’s attitude in my adult life is that of being annoyed with me for not giving her love and attention, like she is the child and I am the parent. It is very hard to give love to someone who demands it, and constantly feels you are disappointing them. The truth is I no longer feel anything for her, which I feel guilty about. The older a parent gets, the more you feel you should make allowances for them, but that contradicts the already shaky self esteem boundaries you have. Her critical ways used to cut me to the quick. Now they make me angry, and I choose to spend less and less time with her, which makes her more upset and critical.
The crux of the matter when you haven’t formed a close emotional bond with a parent is neither of you actually know eachother at all, so all your expectations are based on what that relationship *should* be like, rather than how it *is*. Sadly the same applies when you love an EUM, except you do know them better, and you’ve had happy times with them.
With an EUM you can choose to walk away, but with a parent you feel obliged to try and ‘fix’ it, but all your efforts are unappreciated. I feel far less vulnerable opening my heart to a man who doesn’t love me, than to my mother. I wish I knew how to make *me* feel better about it without severing ties or tolerating her negativity towards me.
Congratulations on your wedding BTW!
Isn’t it a shame that so many of our fathers let us down, as we were growing into women who needed to know they loved us, and when they didn’t, all our male relationships went in the shitter. Sigh.
Susan, your comment reminded me of something that happened in my class the other day. I teach creative writing and one student wrote a quite affecting piece about the affection her often-absent father would show her when she was a child, but how on the day she left for university, he went off to work without even acknowledging that she would be leaving home that day.
We were talking about the writer’s choices in laying out her story, when another young woman put up her hand and said, this isn’t a big deal, it’s not about loss, it’s just fathers and daughters, this is just a normal father-daughter relationship. As if she was a bit annoyed everyone was making the writer’s story into sentimental claptrap.
It wasn’t the time or place to go all BR on her, but I did have to say, “that’s an interesting point, and makes sense if we are of the opinion that normal father-daughter relationships involve distance and unresponsiveness.” She shrugged, as if to say, duh.
I felt bad for her that she just assumed letting daughters down is what dads do. Even if it fit my own experience!
Thank you dancingqueen. Keep strong.
You too Tinkerbell:) We are stronger every day. Congrats on de-onlining yourself:)!
Beautiful, Natalie, and I can so relate. Daddy issues, I think, are a common thread for many of us women here. .. and fathers were the source of much pain in the lives of quite a few men that I have known (notably my ex-husband and the last man I was in a relationship with). Thanks for expressing this so well.
Hey Natalie, Big hugs from me, someone who also struggles with similarish father problems. Sometimes it’s just admitting that I have this problem which is the problem – I feel ashamed that it’s so textbook! But my father became ill last week, and summoned me for a visit to the hospital. I took him gifts to make his stay more comfortable and felt genuine caring feelings towards him, but then this deep disconnect too, like I just couldn’t and can’t be all affectionate and caring. I am not sure if I even want to (i.e. it’s not a simple matter of fear of rejection anymore, if it’s ever just been that). This makes me so hard sometimes, and makes it hard to be fully present. I still get angry about all that wasted time and energy I spent fighting with (and for) someone who devalued me, and continues to tell me I am someone he does not find it easy to get along with. I can take it more as an adult now – a matter of incompatibility – but, at times like this when I am asked and expected to be loving and attentive (and, some of this is natural for me), this old stuff emerges. Sometimes I suspect that I have been so long trained to fight/achieve/protect myself that I am never really in that exhale/accept/blissed state, even if I’d like to think I am. These things are contagious/hereditary (not genetically, but environmentally too): my dad, like his dad, for instance, doesn’t want to be known. He likes being in control and elusive.
Elle, I feel you on all of this.
“you learn to live with this type of disappointment” is a very powerful statement. For years I have been trying to fix the disappointment by wishing to get back together with someone I felt connected to but ultimately wasn’t there. Just the idea that you could choose instead to live with the disappointment instead has a lot of power to help you move forward. You don’t have to fix it, resolve it…it’s not insurmountable, it’s not a stopgap, it’s a disappointment you can live with. Thank you
Great comment. It reminds me of a story I read about the Dalai Lama being questioned about how he ever got over the feelings of guilt and regret he had towards a situation where a man took his own life as a result of misunderstanding some ‘advice’ he had given him.
He explained that he did not ‘get over’ or ‘forget’ them; they continued to be a part of him, but they no longer had the power to pull him into despair and self-denigration. He learned to live with them, and not try to fix, resolve, take the pain away- but to learn to accept it.
I’ve always loved the story cos it reminds me that we really can’t ‘solve’ everything and be some kind of ‘perfect’ version of ourselves and our lives; but we DO have the power to accept what we are and love ourselves regardless.
Natalie,
Thank you. This was probably the most profound post of yours that I’ve read, and that’s saying something. I’ve read it a couple of times, and very slowly each time. I can hear your heart in it. And I squirmed all through reading it because of my own.
(A strange aside: I think you and I are months apart in age–I’ll be 35 in late October–so we could have been going through daddy dysfunction at the same time. Weird.:))
Now, for my proper comment. I’ll try to hit the highlights of my own story:
My mom was pregnant with me and had my 5-year brother at the time she left my father for cheating on her. There has always been some gray area as to whether or not he actually WAS cheating, but anyway, OFF my mother went with my brother and I in tow. My mother raised us on her own from then on. My father didn’t see me until I was 6-months old, then not again until I was 6 years old. Since then, my Dad’s been asking me for forgiveness in every way but his actual words. That’s a lot to lay on a 6-year old, who’s never before been judge or jury.
My dad re-married my stepmother (the possible “matahari” in the cheating saga), when I was still in utero. They have been married for almost 35 years. My brother and I had holidays and summer visits with them throughout our childhood, 3 times a year at the most. We were always flown out, never the other way around. Nevertheless, I have always had a positive relationship with my father and my stepmother, though nothing “uncomfortable” has ever, or probably WILL ever, be brought up between us.
So how do I feel about that? Well, what’s done is done. I’m a grown a** woman. I’m not looking for a Dr. Phil moment; I just want peace. I’ve forgiven. HOWEVER…it seems to me that in the past few years, my father, who is almost 70 years old, is pushing for a closer bond with me. He hasn’t done anything outright to ask for it; it’s just his overall “vibe.” I’m not trying to deny him that…but I kinda feel like, “He didn’t put any money in the bank, so how can I give him interest after all these years?” It’s not a matter of me being angry at all–I’m simply commenting on the natural process of things. I can’t give what hasn’t been stirred up in me.
And do you know what? It makes me sad for him. And it makes me sad for me. But Nat, like you said, it is what it is. I can love him in the only way I know how: in fits and starts. Awkwardly. Often badly,with chewed cuticles. I’m just as much afraid of the force of my love for him as I’m afraid that I don’t have ANY love for him. I want to love him more, and I DON’T want to love him more at the same time. None of it makes sense.
Ah, there’s a lot more on this subject, but that’s enough for now. But Natalie, I really DO understand what you’re getting at: this connection with our parents, especially this stop/start, nature/nurture connection that’s at the root of it, is a tricky thing. I’ll have to sit with these thoughts a little more.
Rev
With boundaries intact and for some of us it’s possible to have a closer relationship with these parents. Even if they don’t deserve it. It can be beneficial to us too, it’s not just about meeting their needs.
However, some of us are too vulnerable and/or the parents too toxic for a reconciliation. That’s okay.
Thanks, Grace. You’re right. Neither of my parents are toxic, thankfully. I am very grateful for that, and have led a charmed life compared to most. I think I just feel guilty, sometimes, for the absence of feeling I have toward my father. I know that I DO love him on some level, but it’s just hard to get at. Kinda like when you drop something in that godawful crack next to your driver’s seat in the car. Awkward.
Still, this is life, not a game. I’m worried that I won’t “get it” in time, and he’ll die on me before I figure it out. And then I’m angry because I feel like HE should be the one figuring this out, not me. He got us into this mess, after all. Yikes, it’s a clusterf**k. Anyway, thanks again. Free therapy session over. 🙂
revolution, you nailed it.
“He didn’t put any money in the bank, so how can I give him interest after all these years?”
Yes, there is this idea that old people are innocent and that they deserve “interest”; they don’t, just for being old.
Older EU, AC parents, pardon how this will sound, suck because their very age makes them seem so innocent and one’s rejection of them unfathomable.
My dad shoved me when I was back home and told me to shut up multiple times ( right after I had taken him out to dinner, what an ass no less) and that was par for the course for how he has been my whole life. The difference is, that now everybody can rewrite history that it is due to his dementia…except that he would be verbally abusive and such as a child.
My sister-in-law was chirping on about how great it was to see me when I went to visit them and she can’t wait till next time, I told her that there will not be a next time with him. And her comment was similar to someone’s earlier “What if that was the last time to see him?”
It is, and he shoved and swore at me and was even mean about givig me old molding pics of my mom that he would rather have rotting in a shed than in a frame at my house; whatever. That is just an old mean man, not a dad.
You know this is so cold to say and I would not say it anywhere but here because I know that this community gets it and most won’t judge me for it but frankly….sometimes I wish that he would hurry up and die. Then I could do all the stuff that I am supposed to do to get things in order and not have people expect me to put myself willingly in front of an oncoming train ( for the upteenth time grr)
I reread that and I know how it sounds and I don’t care; it is my truth. I don’t wish death on him, but I wish he would also tell everyone the truth; that he does not love me, nor respect me and that he does not want to see me either. Or at least another truth; that he knows that he was an ass, but he likes to keep the false image going that he has a daughter that turned out all right, who loves him.
okay must go get a coffee now grr stay strong ladies…
I head ya, and understand, dancingqueen. I don’t think it sounds bad at all. Don’t know if your dad fits this particular description, but have you ever read the blog “Narcissists Suck” by Anne Valerious? She talks a lot about the old, seemingly nullified narcissists that are supposed to get a “Get Out of Jail Free” card because of their age. The Bible DOES say to honor our parents, but it also says to guard against bad association. I hear ya all around, my dear, and no I don’t think you’re a horrible person for feeling the way you do.
Hi Natalie & Ladies, it” me, Diana Angelface.
Another beautiful post, and yes, Me too- a father who blew his happy family to smithereens when I was about 12.
I was so independent that I just lived my own life, but have made the huge mistake in believing men/ people were all Good, and mentally balanced. Because I lived A non-traditional life, I felt that others in the world were capable & good…. A mistake. I married a Japanese man, whom later I found out was in the Yakuza- Japanese mafia, through his mother’s circle of people. He through violent tantrums …nightmare.
I divorced him, moved to Seattle and Loved & lived with a Real psychopath. And of recent, have detached myself from an Un-diagnosed Aspergers, SADIST, Narcissisi, Sexual predator.
Only through my true self with the aid of Natalie’s articles& Love & support, have I managed to stay in No Contact( even though the recent Monster tried to control me by moving onto my street!?!!! He moved Off my street, which has one road & I had to pass his place daily .. He moved 3 weeks ago – cause at age 50 he got his ‘primary’ woman pregnant & they now have a baby….
…. And I wonder if I have created this disgusting experiences due In Part, to my own father who did not do the right things for our Family.
Such is life, but I will Not Lose myself in this or waste another year .
Wow Natalie! You definitely re-experienced some incredible childhood trauma issues in relationship to your wedding. That old stuff seems to have a way of resurrecting itself, just like trying to keep the beach ball underwater. Are you sure it was a “downside”? Or was it time, yet again, to refold and reorganize old hurts? Everything you have written on forgiveness has struck home with me. It’s not about them being responsible or even remorseful, regretful for their past actions cos they may never get it. I’m with you totally. However, you nailed it with regards to your continued involvement being based on BS and a denial of the past. Therein lies the core issue for me. You can’t pretend the past isn’t what it was. So yeah. That’s it. The past was what it was. Keep your cupboard tidy Natalie, refold, clear what you can, and keep being you. There are disappointments but then there are other tremendously amazing things like your totally darling, adorable daughters (loved the glasses) and that dreamy hubby with the gorgeous tux and to die for smile! And he treats you with love, respect, and care. Eyes on the prize woman. The prize is YOU!
My mum and dad are brilliant and i often wondererd why i turned out how i did and with the men i have known , several disasters and a twenty yr old marriage. I found a diary fr 1987 and i was chasing blokes at 18 that wetent intersted and that broughte down on tue as i felt nothing had changed. My councillor said what did i think and i said i never matured as ive always run to my mum and dad and they have always helped. Like ove remainef emmotionally a teenager inside. I have ob grown up in some areas ie having my own boys but my epihany was i havent matured with my handling of thouhhts and feelings. My marraige was to a father figure and he admitted to mentaly bullying me as i left and that he respected meore in last two yrs because i stood up for myself , it was here i learnt the doormat behaviour.you ddont see how you carry it across to other aspects of your life until you take a big step back. Now i see it and it very hard to change pattern and the feeling it brings with it ,
Example my toxic friend text me at work to try pick a fight with me she does this when on downer , normally i let it go , the doormat gets panicky and explains , rows back etc , what did i do , said go row with someone eles leave me alone . Id been feeling hood and she pulled me down but i sorted it and picked mysrlf back up.
Then i blew it nxt morn by breaking nc and burninng my hand in fire with ex mm . Im awake now that familir time obsessing again when i should be getting beauty sleep ha ha , but it the same every morning and i agree its like you like the pain its familiar ,comfatable
Tinkerbell hit the nail on the head he a ex mm he was never mine and i look back he never was i had a intense hot period at begining five yrs ago then the remainder till rerun couple of months back , a few texts a week and occasional visit and he used as a fall back girl recently . And to see it in cold hatd facts and not fantasy yep it hurts and what a mug . I got stuck on connection or the false one of we understand each other we make each other laugh no i did for him , and its a crock of crap he has that with god knows howmany others easy replacable.
But i take hope that i see all this clearly now and that i have to face the pain of this that somewhere i had the strength to walk from the husband and i did indeed take a stand and walk from the crockof crapbag , slimeyliar sville and instead of faltering keep walking abd not look back .
Hi,
it’s my first time to comment after reading this blog for about 2 months…
The problem with a “connection” is, it sometimes only happens INSIDE your head. You feel attached, because you want to feel attached. The other party is EU, but that doesn’t matter. And no matter what the EU person does, you cannot let go. Because you cannot let go, you think, you love this person. And so this connection persists…
Thx Nathalie for your great blog. I keep on reading, it gives me another perspective of my past relationship…
X.
xueyu ouyang-
agreed. and we are completely unaware that what we are really connecting with is an unsolved part of ourselves. its very confusing that it feels external but isn’t, that we experience it through another person and therefore form a connection that is really just a reflection of us, a mirror. and its ironic that in so doing, we are choosing someone who is only capable of giving us the opposite of what we need, that as keenly feeling creatures we are driven by some quirk of human genetics to seek the same bad thing over and over rather than reaching initially for what might actually heal us.
we need the bad experience to stop doing it. it sucks that we’re wired this way. alas. that’s why we have natalie.
I’m sorry if this isn’t quite on topic, but this post triggered something in me about connection and letting go. After much pain and 3 months NC, I asked the ex MM for a reference, he provided one and then offered his services as an interview coach. Thanks to BR and the support I’ve received here I haven’t taken up his offer, however, have I been guilty of trying to ‘make something‘ of it! Sort of like – “he must be sorry, he regrets his actions, he’s remorseful, he misses me, he feels guilty, he’s been thinking about the baby”. Ha! Pathetic! I’ve come to the realisation that offering to be my ‘coach’ isn’t the same as being regretful or sorry. It isn’t the same as asking me if I’m ok. He has never asked if I’m ok . I lost my precious baby for f…’s sake, and here I am making excuses for him – you know it’s ‘his way’ of saying sorry. Maybe he is, but I’ve decided that I’m not going, as Natalie says “to pretend that the past isn’t what it was” and I will not allow him to gloss over all that has happened. He can crawl back into that black hole he just came out of. I still have a lot of work to do. I still feel a connection, but I’m beginning to let go and I’m taking my baby with me. I’ve said it many times, but this site is my lifeline, thank you.
I’m beginning to let go and I’m taking my baby with me.
Lilly, that made me cry. God bless you and your little baby’s soul!
Lily he is a monster, stay strong and away; it makes no sense to approach a monster and that is what he is. Your baby is in your memory and heart; he is safe and he knew your love. That man is toxic. Please please stay away from him Hugs.
Hugs Lilly….big hugs to you and your precious baby. Keep coming here
What a timely article! I recently got out of an emotional affair (using the NCR) and just started doing an inventory on it today. What a surprise it ALL goes back to my father! I saw that my need for love and attention got the (affair) ball rolling and my fear of abandonment (my EU father was an alcoholic and left us when I was a teenager)kept it going. That has been the root of ALL my problems with men. Thanks for sharing your story with us, Natalie!
Yess
I’m afraid that when I hear of these connections and soulmates and even love I am highly sceptical. Then when the woman expands on the basis of the connection i want to take them into the fallback girl protection programme.
It will be a few texts. Or a lot of texts. Emails. Phone calls.Some stuff he said. The relationship is x years long. The sex is good, he is charming, he has lots of friends. His wife doesn’t understand him. He gets weepy or guilty. He has issues.He was nice to me in 1984. I think about him a lot. I dream about him. We could have a fantastic relationship (if it was different or if I actually saw him). I can’t let go. I cry a lot. Im on antidepressAnts. No judgement, that’s my previous relationship history.
But It really is not extraordinary to meet someone nice, go out with them a few times a week, make plans in advance, know that they like you, to show That you like them, to share your thoughts and feelings, to not criticise each other, to not want them to be better or different, for intimacy to grow, to be faithful, trust and be trusted, to be kind, to look upon each other with favour and gentleness, to support them in their human weaknesses, to reassure them. And, yes, we are sexually attracted to each other, laugh, and have fun. Less than that is crumbs.
That’s a connection.
thanks nat for sharing your father sorrows. I don’t think it ever does resolve completely but that’s okay. It’s the re-enactment of it in our love lives that is NOT okay.
“He was nice to me in 1984.”
Thanks for the belly laugh, Grace! I’m so happy I can find the humor in this now. There is hope, ladies.
I believe that you come to a point in life when you know that it is no longer possible to live in a parent(s)shadow and that in order to blossom you have to come out from under the roles ascribed or adopted. The letting go part is hard and for a time there is a longing for the familar drama and torment. That in my experience passes if you let it. You then begin to give back to yourself the unconditional love that was not given by that parent(s).
This undoing has resulted in changing a number of patterns, habits and relationships in my life all of which has been for the better.
“The ‘connection’ only has the meaning that you assign to it. ”
“why do we feel a connection with someone who isn’t or hasn’t been around, or who has dipped in and out?”
Aaahh. An amazing post, thank you. Exactly what I needed (but, of course, don’t actually WANT) to hear…chasing a feeling and finding it hard to let go, all based on what exactly? A ‘connection’, with, get this, a guy who lives 1000s of miles away in another country, who I won’t get to see for another year.
I finally came out and said what the eff is going on here, we’re ‘chatting’ all the time and its getting quite personal, there is something going on here, its gone beyond friendly.
He responded that he was also attracted to me, but went on to say ‘its great having you there to talk about ideas with, and as for the relationship stuff, well lets just see what happens when we meet up again.’
I’m kind of kicking myself, cos I know from reading BR what all this means now. It means sure its great having you there for ego strokes, advice, a laugh, and hey I’ll definitely be keeping you as a future option now I know you’d sleep with me (I said as much…ouch). But there’s really nothing there. WAKE UP CALL!
And all this based on a strong ‘connection’ that i felt when i met him on a work thing, that has somehow (!! i.e. with my full and willing participation- ouch again) continued for months.
Feeling very silly right about now and wishing I’d been woman enough to ask those questions way back, to spare me the heartache I knew was coming, and is now here. Letting go is bloody hard work but we have to do it if we are to value ourselves first and foremost and stop chasing that feeling off someone else.
One thing I’ve realised recently as I’m having to deal with my issues (at last) is that the connection I feel isn’t to the person per se…they are just the embodiment. My issues revolve around self-esteem, rejection and abandonment and, guess what, I’ve been transferring them from person to person my whole life. No action at all is required with my ex, in fact, to contact him or check up on him just pushes my insecurity buttons more. My issues are mine and mine alone and only I can help myself by addressing them. I’m not avoiding this fact anymore by trying to get love from unlikely sources. I’m learning to give it to myself. Many thanks to Natalie and the shared experiences I read about on BR. I no longer feel like I’m the only one dealing with such lessons.
I wonder if someone can answer why the other woman hangs on though the whatever he is has told the other woman that he will no longer engage in sex with her she wants to continue to have sex even though she knows about me I am flushing but why do they hang on ?
Tulips
Please don’t go from analysing him to analysing other women. It’s an unknowable circle of hell. Here’s a qei
Oops
Here’s a question, why do you need to know what another woman thinks of someone you flushed?
Still if you need to know just read back through previous posts and comments. We all are or have been that woman.
Don’t get distracted from your life by needing to know what everyone else is thinking.
“Oops
Here’s a question, why do you need to know what another woman thinks of someone you flushed?”
Okay I just re-realized why “flushing” is so funny; I just had this image of poor Tulipa gazing sadly with a quizzical look into a toilet, thinking about what the turd was thinking…ladies seriously this metaphor, for lack of a better word, really does encapsulate the ironic joke of the bulk of our “love” attachements here…he he
Dancingqueen
I’ve had a rubbish day today and that comment cheered me right up!
Why why oh why spend any time pondering the turd’s motivations, mentality, feelings, thoughts, history and future. It needed to begone..et wal-lah! Flush! That’s all that matters!
Grace,
I think it relates back to childhood my dad left for the other woman. He had many flings and affairs throughout his short marriage to my mum. Once he left I seldom saw him until one day he went to court and signed his rights and responsibilities away and I didn’t see him again for 20 something years.
Now he was my dad and it was nice and conveinent to blame his other woman he did marry her. Now I should ask my dad but rumour throughout the family was it was her fault she wanted da nice clean slate without caring for someone else’s kids. It took a long time to see my dad made his choices too but I think the kick is he doesn’t regret what he did.
So I try to see the other woman’s point of view and understand their position.
It made it easier to live in lala land I suppose to hold such a grudge against the other woman because home life with my step dad was crap and my dad would be the hero and come and resue me.
It is all very mixed up thinking and it hasn’t been easy to find out about the cheating and I suppose wondering what the other woman is thinking about distracts me from dealing with my own emotion I am afraid of that dark hole I fell into in 2010/11
Thank you Dancing Queen that made me laugh.
dancingqueen-
that’s hysterical.
tulips/a-
here. i can solve it for you. every time you wonder what the OW’s point of view is, just decide that it is the same as the evil bitch of a near-stepmother who somehow managed to snag your dad into abandoning his children. just picture her as cruella de vil on the inside, no matter what she looks like on the outside, and you’ll have your answer.
and you’ll stop wondering. which, grace is right, is exactly what you need to stop doing.
i’m so sorry you were treated that way. now, make sure you don’t treat yourself that way.
excellent advice CC;) glad we could share the giggle all.
Tulips: I´ve been wondering for ages about the OW that destroyed my marriage when my kids were still little. I just couldn´t imagine taking some small kids´ dad away (they had a hard time when my ex husband left me for her).
Until my daughter, who eventually met her, decided to make a drawing of her. She made a lady with bright red lips, long black hair and horns on both sides of her head, like a devil. Her t-shirt had the following words: “I hate you”.
My daughter had a good laugh when she finished her drawing and well, I got my answer so I don´t bother about it anymore.
Thank you for sharing your story Lilia it sounds like you all got through a very difficult time.
Have to control my thinking that this is not a competition between me and her or that something is wrong with me.
HA Lilia! What an expressive little girl you have! 🙂 Give her little fighting spirit a BIG hug for me! 🙂
Oh Grace I did laugh out loud at this “It will be a few texts. Or a lot of texts. Emails. Phone calls.Some stuff he said. The relationship is x years long. The sex is good, he is charming, he has lots of friends. His wife doesn’t understand him. He gets weepy or guilty. He has issues.He was nice to me in 1984. I think about him a lot. I dream about him. We could have a fantastic relationship (if it was different or if I actually saw him). I can’t let go. I cry a lot. Im on antidepressAnts. No judgement, that’s my previous relationship history.” You missed out “he once bought me a huge bunch of flowers.”
I am still struggling and still thinking about all the What Ifs.
I too had an absent, alcoholic father, and he died right in the middle of my relationshit with ex eum. Ex EuM was fantastically supportive I have to admit, but I was still more anxious about all that was/wasn’t going on between me and EUM than I was about my Dad dying. How sick and sad is that?
No Victorious it is not really that sick: you were having a more present day equivalent relationship to the one that you had with your dad. He was in the past, the EU was in the present, you were trying to fix the past by dealing with the present that is all…please don’t judge yourself:)
I have no relationship with my parents. After years of digging in and “working” on my relationship with my abusive mother, I realized I was the only one doing the work and decided to give up. After reaching out to have a relationship with my father as an adult and being told “I won’t have anything to do with you until you speak with your mother” I began to realize that my father had as big a part in the abuse that I experienced as my mother. I used to “worship” him as the “good” parent; that went away the day he a) denied that I’d been abused by my mother, and b) suggested that if there was abuse, perhaps I “deserved” it.
After many years, my parents have both made attempts to reconcile with me: My mother “apologized” by writing that she was “sorry you feel that you were abused, but I had no choice because you were a difficult child” and my father has told me that I’ve been “forgiven” and can come home any time I like.
So, as long as I accept that I’m the problem and act like nothing happened, I can go home.
Bullshit.
And yet, this is how I have treated all of my relationships as an adult: Play nice; don’t stand up for yourself; accept the abuse – nay, blame yourself for the abuse because you’re not “good” enough;and eventually lose your marbles because you’re not being true to yourself.
Natalie, the more people you reach with your blog, the better. You may not be able to help everyone, but the more people who enter into healthy relationships, the more children there will be who know what a healthy relationship looks like, and the fewer people there will be who will accept BULLSHIT in their lives.
Until I’ve worked through my own stuff, I’m remaining single. The longer I do it, the happier I am.
Never again will I tolerate an unhealthy relationship in my life, not even the one I have with myself. 🙂
Learning,
Oh my gosh. Your story could be my story. Abusive mother, a father I worshiped because he was the *good* parent even though he turned a blind eye to the abuse. My mother told me that she could say (i.e. you’re a piece of shit) and do (duct tape sharp objects to me) anything she wanted to me because “she was my mother.” Not only did I *deserve* what she did, but , *I* was the one who abused her by being “difficult”. I’m so glad you are able to recognize their treatment of you and their lame attempts at reconciliation (no doubt to appease their own conscious) as bullshit. I’m so sorry you had to experience that.
“And yet, this is how I have treated all of my relationships as an adult: Play nice; don’t stand up for yourself; accept the abuse – nay, blame yourself for the abuse because you’re not “good” enough;and eventually lose your marbles because you’re not being true to yourself.”
I know exactly what you’re talking about. I know that as a result of my childhood, I have struggled with being a “blame-absorber”; feeling guilty or responsible for things that really have little to nothing to do with me. Despite my childhood, I know that I am completely responsible for who I am today. I’m working on having a better relationship with myself too. Loving myself, forgiving myself, and fighting not to make other people’s treatment of me indicative of my own self-worth. Thanks for sharing your story. It really is an encouragement to me.
Laurie:
I’m sorry you went through so much pain at the hands of your mother, and that your father allowed it to happen. We don’t get to choose our parents, but we do get to choose anyone else we have in our lives.
I wish you success in building up your relationship with yourself, and that it allows you to choose the right people from now on.
It’s funny: You are clearly a strong person because you have survived so much; yet, we don’t see it in ourselves, and we continue to let other people take advantage of our ability to tolerate crap. I say we use that strength to say ‘NO’.
Learner:
“Never again will I tolerate an unhealthy relationship in my life, not even the one I have with myself.”
Well said! Me too. And since I have paid more attention to the relationship, the connection, I have with myself (as opposed to non-connections with stupid EUMs!) I feel so much more contented, at peace with myself and confident about who I am and what I’m worth – and people notice. My boss noticed. He gave me a promoted post last week. Yay.
Funny that. During my epic fantasy connection with ex EUM I practically had a nervous breakdown at the very thought of interviews; I never got the promoted posts I went for – I never believed I was good enough. I do now. I believe in me. Thank you, Natalie! I hope you know the real difference you make to your readers’ lives. God bless.
Thanks, Fearless.
We are all beautiful, strong and deserving in our own way, aren’t we?
Once we recognize that fully in ourselves, watch out world!
AND CONGRATULATIONS!!!!
FANTASTIC FEARLESS…how wonderful for you. You are good enough, in fact you are the best. And yes, thank you Natalie! What a difference indeed.
Congratulations Fearless! The negative messages you received from the EUM are being replaced with self-confidence – amazing. All the best in your new position 🙂
Learning, word; your story could be my story as well. There is always some scapegoat in the family who is supposed to sit under the burden, take abuse, and make everyone feel okay by staying. If they leave then others have to admit that they might be asses.
Stay strong. It is not your fault and your family needs to hang the “welcome” mat out for some other sucker. hugs.
Hi Tired, honey. You will be okay. If you are NC with the a–hole, keep it that way. It is extremely hard, but focus on the work ahead that you need to do for yourself. Do not reminisce the good points about him, because the bad far outweigh the good. I didn’t need to, but you may want to list all the crap he put you through and put a copy of it everywhere in your home, and carry it around with you so it gets drummed into your brain. I have my issues which I continue to work on but I did not hang on or go back for more abuse after NC. I allowed my anger to view him as the sickest, most dysfunctional, (and he really was, married and philandering around was actually the least of his crimes) dickwad of the century and that kept me away. Please, Tired, it’s enough already. Move on. No regretting what has happened, beating yourself up (he did enough of that, I’m sure) You can’t change a thing about what has already passed. LET IT GO and create a healthy life for YOU. You may backslide at times, we all do, because that’s all part of the struggle to be free of the sick, twisted crap. But, you will see the light at the end of the long dark tunnel, and realize that the light, and resulting peace of mind, is so much more soul satisfying than the turbulent darkness. I pray for you.
Great post. I really admire your courage in sharing this stuff. I continually get pulled back to the anger of a period of my past with my father that is completely unacknowledged (or rather it is treated as just a blip when it actually devestated me and changed the course of life). Like you, i have no interest in a BS relationships where there are white elephants everywhere. I don’t know the answer but I have a feeling that your commitment to yourself steers you in the right direction and something to keep coming back to when things get rough, as they inevitably will sometimes. That is something I have taken from your posts, which is a brand new thing for me at the grand old age of 38. But better late than never right! 🙂
Over two years ago my ex stopped seeing our kids. His choice, as he only lives two hours away. Contact had been going downhill for two years before that. Excuses were always work, money, needing to be with his current girlfriend (the ultimate story: leaving the kids at 9 AM on Christmas morning so that his girlfriend wouldn’t be alone for Christmas…which was interesting since she was Jewish…). For our daughters 16th birthday he sent her a check and it bounced. She was sick of his not seeing her, ignoring her, and now she had to pay the bank $25 for the bounced check fee. So she sent him a nasty email (also, she has REALLY bad PMS and all this was converging), but a very typical 16-yr-old girl email.
His response was to call HER ungrateful, an offer to give up his parental rights, and ended with the line, “You stay away from me”.
She was pissed for a while, then seemed ok, but then plunged into a MAJOR depression, failing school, bad boy choiced, ending in a suicide attempt. He has still not come to see her.
She’s fine now. More than fine. We got her into major therapy, I’m paying out the nose for it, but it’s worth it because my baby is back.
Her therapist says she can stop now if she wants. But SHE has asked to keep going until she goes off to college next fall because, as she says, “I want to work on these Daddy issues NOW, not when I’m older”.
MY father bailed when I was a little girl, and even though I was raised by a wonderful step-father, to have someone come in and out of your life and treat you indifferently is damaging. I wanted to stop this cycle.
I’ve been reading this site for four years now, I think when she’s using my computer she reads it when it’s up. She is a very, very wise girl
Tracy
My heart goes out to her. The situation sadly is not unusual. I know of too many cases where fathers have done a runner, or they think the kids are great fun until the kids get older and start becoming less adoring and more demanding (nothing wrong with that, it’s part of growing up).
It’s natural for a chid to think, what did I do wrong?
NOTHING
“Fathers do not provoke your children to anger lest they become discouraged”
Thankyou tinkerbell , i was very angry this morning as i walked the dog and i shouted ranted away down in the fields where no one could hear me lol . Poor poor dog hes waiting hanging around in his old age to make sure im okay i came home to a mess from ex mm asking if im okay and what job was i applying for , i think it was because i said bollocks to it all and hes game playing , wait for it i didnt reply as he wanted me to go oh where are you ? Etc rabbit do he knows im still talking to him and i didnt answer i dont want two shitty texts and no reply to make me feel crap i want you gone i went down town instead with a friend and looked at all the other fishes in the sea and enjoyed the sun on my face lol no games for me just real life , strength to all you fabulous girls out there in usa and dear ole blighty x
I’m not sure about any of this. I’ve dealt with family of origin & childhood issues to death. Over & over. In group therapy led by professional therapists dealing with specific issues. Individual therapy looking at the whole damed lot (20+ years of it – I kid you not – off & on). 20+ years of slowly sorting through it in self groups, 5 times ‘officially’ using a structured program. And, mostly, it’s sorted to the degree that it can be. I can.never therapise my turbulent childhood or family of origin issues away but I have learnt to take my lemons & make lemonade, a process which I think is lifelong & ongoing. As we go through the lifespan, like with your wedding Nat, we bump imto experiences which give rise to opening the box rearranging the contents & our thoughts or feelings, incorporate the new realisations &.move forward.
My question I’ve been wondering about of late, in thinking about why I’ve been single so long (apart from not trusting men enough to put my future in one’s hands I.e financial independence via a good career was an important dating pre-requisite for me & I’m nearly there as measured by having the house paid off) is this:
They say that (assuming one is heterosexual) we date ppl like our opposite sex parent. Surprise, surprise, my father (much like my non existant partners) was never there! In fact, my biological father is unknown. My adopted father, dosited my sister & I in an orphanage when I was 3 yo. I would never return home & the remainder of my childhood was a serious of miserable hellholes one would not leave your dog in let alone a child.
We were sent to visit my mother & step father monthly for the weekend, until they divorced when I was seven. After that my sister & I took turns between bi monthly weekends at mums & dads. I did not know at this time he was my adopted father. I was told her was my biological father. I learned the truth by accident when I overheard adults talking l was 12. By then he had a new girlfriend he planned to marry. She had a two year old.
We argued one day during a weekend visit & my adopted Father called me a liar. I hadn’t lied & said that was rich after everyone had just lied to me whole life about him being my adopted not biological father (this was the first time I revealed to him that I knew & the secret everyone had been keeping from me was finally out). While we are on topic I asked, do you plan to also lie to your new girlfriends 2yo & tell HER that you are HER bio father also (there had been talk of an engagement). He admitted that yes, the child would be raised to think he was the bio father. I hit the roof & a bitter argument ensued.
The following week my adopted Dad (who had adopted me at 6 mths old) visited me at the childrens home I was in at the time & told me I would not be visiting him anymore, that my sister (his bio child) would be visiting him alone from now on & that he had a ‘new family now & there was no room in it for me’ (these were his exact words. I have never forgotten them).
On that day the only father I had ever known, turned on his heel & literally walked out of my life. I only spoke to once after that in my early 20’s. I was searching for information on my real father & I thought he might know something. He (unlike my Mother who has cruelly told.me all sorts of conflicting stories over the years) told.me Mother never told him a name. He believes it’s because she doesn’t know.
Now, I didn’t tell this story for sympathy. Yes, it’s a bit ordinary but I’ve had a lifetime to grieve the loss. I just wonder, is perhaps WHY I’ve been most of the time single all these long years. Because that is definately emulating my opposite sex partner. Ie He is literally not there!!!
Am I making any sense here??
And PLEASE don’t anyone laugh at me when I say this, because yes I DO feel foolish admitting it, but recently I have finally made contact with that little 2 yo girl. My step sister. Phew. Sorry. This is a bit hard for me. She’s now a grown woman in her 30’s & recently learned the truth that she is fact adopted (not from me). So far we have only emailed but my sister I was in the homes with talks to her & between my emails & my sister verifying everything I’ve told her, she now knows the story of what Dad did all those years ago.
Embarressingly, I have a desire to reconnect with my adopted father. Not yet, as I am ill & I need to approach him from a position of strength. But really, I look back at what he has done & the terrible things which I suffered because of him ( he placed my sister in an orphanage because he was abusive to our Mother & he knew this would break her & it did, although shelwas also abusive & mentally ill) & think why? He’s not a good father to my sister so why would he be kind toward me!
He’s in complete denial about what he has done & claims to have no knowledge of the terrible abuse my sister & I endured for our entire childhoods in those horrible places. How convenient. The 2 yo now a woman knows though. Perhaps I want to be able to just say to him you almost destroyed me but you know what you didn’t & it made me a better person & you are all the poorer for the loss of my sister & I from your life. I don’t know. Nat says silence speaks louder. His is deafening. Bet he nearly choked when my sister commented to him that she hopes any provisions in his will go some way toward making some sort of ammends for the terrible harm he caused us both in our childhoods! (He retired at 45 & was an accountant). He stole our colledge fund accounts when he divorced our Mother. My sister never made it that far. I’m still working & struggling to pay my way through uni! Some Dad huh!!
Teachable, I am really sorry about your terrible experiences. Truly. Good for you for coming out of it and finding the truth, sanity and communication on this blog. I hope God has a special place in Heaven for all of us who endured hell on earth with toxic parents. I do not think you should ever contact your step father, even from a position of ‘strength’ because he sounds really sociopathic, and their ACTUAL GOAL (not happenstance because he had a bad life or doesn’t know any better) is to hurt and destroy. This will set you back again, as he will disappoint 100% of the time. The general public (law/MD/psychotherapists) don’t seem to grasp this concept, but sociopaths have a non-quenchable thirst for evil, and you will just make his day and put a sinister grin on his face by letting him know how much he hurt you. They consider that a ‘win’. They also tend to sire lots of kids, and have many wives/girlfriends, not because they love them of course, but because it provides more outlets for the abuse and chaos they enjoy envoking. Sadly, that was probably his wish all along. We can just hope that the “karma’ we hear of actually works some where, some how.
Nat,
I hope you get to feeling better, sorry your jaw hurts. This hit right home, once again. Since I have been working on me, I find myself asking “why, why, why? Why would someone not want to be with me?” I have finally come to the realization that “it’s not me!” I also get the feeling that I never knew him (my ex, or dad for that matter). It’s all like a false, guarded, veneer. I have also found that they need our pity, because you can never truly know love unless you are vulnerable and let someone in. It is a half life at that! So very sad! To all girls, try not to let it knock you down, this behavior is just the norm for them!! We are all beautiful and deserve love. As for the men, I guess the love we can give them is in prayers. 🙂
Well Natalie, you’ve got us thinking about our parents! I’ll share my mother’s story. She married Don and she always said he was a really nice man, stable,all things good, but not highly educated or intellectually stimulating(salt of the earth boring?). Two years together then he went to fight
WWII and was away 4years with limited contact. Back home for another 2 yrs but in that time Mom
met my Dad. Divorced Don, married Dad (Ivy League, brilliant professional, mega intellectual stimulation, let me add emotionally unavailable not only to me but her too…). They
were married 35 yrs until his death. It was a very intellectually stimulating, emotionally agonizing marriage. She and I nursed him with commitment (that’s love)through his horrific cancer death.
At age 75 Mom goes to 50th reunion and sees Don after 36 yrs! He’s married to Gladys for 35 yrs. A yr. later Gladys dies one night of heart attack. Don recontacts Mom (1000’s of miles away). At age 77 Mom remarried Don and had another 8 yrs with him. Solid, respectful, kind, nice, a bit boring but emotionally available.
I liked Don. Didn’t like my father. Mom and I took care of both of them in their deaths. When Dad died, well it was a loss after 35 yrs of partnership, commitment and love. But when Don died, her grief was inconsolable. Lesson for us all, it’s an emotionally available man we want when we are 83yrs old.
Thank you for that story. It gives hope that there are good men out there. It’s sad that ‘stable’ men seem boring. The old ‘slow and steady wins the course’ argument really rings true for these guys. But we condition ourselves that ‘slow and steady’ equals boring. Maybe we need to train ourselves to slow down and see the forest for the trees instead of always falling for the flashy ACs
Amazing! Great story.
Also note: old flames die hard. And the rejecter (the emotionally unavailable one) (here, your mom) can always get back the rejectee.
I’m afraid I have to put my hand up too and say I was trained very well indeed to deal with my ‘difficult’ father throughout my childhood. Emotionally unstable, selfish, mean, hypochondriac attention-commander with an explosive temper and control issues, I have only a very few memories of kind and loving moments with him when I was younger than six.
Apparently, he was certain I would be a prized son when I was born, and he was incredibly disappointed when I turned out to just be a second daughter. When my mother decided she wasn’t up to having any more than two children, so denying him his precious son, he crept into a den like a dragon and lashed out at us every time we went near until he finally departed when I was 17.
I haven’t seen him for 12 years. I send him birthday, Christmas and (get this) Father’s Day cards every single year and receive nothing in return. I received nothing from him as a wedding present although he did come to my wedding. When I sent him a care package when I heard he was ill about 18 months ago, he refused it at the door and sent it back to where it came from.
I fall for strong, capable men. Men who have the capacity to take care of me if needs be — although I’m so strong and independent myself, it really takes someone I have to admire in this respect before I fall for them. This worked out fine with some really balanced boyfriends and a relatively balanced husband — until my most recent relationship when I really threw myself into something with an EU/MM psychopath. Hey, I had all the skills, right? I’d been trained well by my mother how to cope with EU masterpieces such as my father. And so I went on for five years. I has to be the last and only time. Has to be.
Grizelda,
oh my goodness. How awful for you that your dad ignores you to that extreme, and even refuses your gifts! I was also rejected very early on by my father partly because of my gender. The nurse attending my birth mistakenly told him I was a boy, and he started calling family to tell them about the birth of his son. When he heard I was actually a girl, it was just never the same. I always felt “not good enough” because I was a girl. I had forgotten all this till I read your comment. How can we live up to expectations involving our sex chromosomes? No wonder we felt we had to jump through hoops to please them. And for what? More puzzle pieces falling into place – thanks for your comment xo
I cried when I read this post. I’m so sorry, Natalie. Obviously I don’t know you, but your posts have been such an encouragement to me, and I’m sorry you have to deal with all of this. Your vulnerability is incredibly refreshing, especially as I was beginning to think that perhaps you possessed super-human emotional powers : ) I think it’s important to learn that even if I do have and maintain healthy boundaries (which I’m trying to do) and I learn to love myself unconditionally (which is even harder to do) that I won’t necessarily be *protected* from being hurt. There’s no avoiding it. But we can lessen the hurt that we feel by choosing not to make someone else’s hurtful behavior about us.
Hi Natalie. Thanks for very powerful post and for sharing your own family trials and tribulations.
It’s been on my mind all day, esp this bit: “…the connection is something that’s ‘there’ without a wealth of positive experiences to back it up. It just ‘is’ and we never question it and where it comes from – we might just fanny away a lifetime though trying to get them to live up to the connection…”
I know you’re talking about fathers, but it made me think about how I launched myself into a relationshit with my ex-AC and fannied away 10+ years because of the ‘connection’ I’d decided we had. I would have (and did!) put up with anything he threw at me because, in my head, we were ‘soulmates’ and made for each other. I blindly assumed he felt the same about us – although his actions should have been more than enough evidence that he saw me more as a someone to pay his bills, boost his ego and put a roof over his head.
In the 8 years since we broke up, I’ve mulled over this extremely unhealthy attachment ad nauseum… Anyone in their right mind would have told him where to get off, sharpish, so why did he have a hold on me for so long? I’ve had therapy, read BR every day for over two years and I know it has something to do with the way I was brought up, but I can’t put my finger on exactly what/why.
I get that my parents trained me to have low self-esteem, that I went out into the adult world with no boundaries whatsoever, having never been allowed to have any. My mum (who died 16 years ago when I was 27) was hypercritical, depressed, moody, unaffectionate, blatantly favoured my brother and was verbally and occasionally physically abusive towards me. I’ve always thought of my dad as the good guy, and he did what he thought was best, but he never protected me from my mum, he was dismissive of my opinions and my interests and, like my mum, would endeavour to control me with his moods. Recently two friends have used the word paternalistic to describe him. I thought it just meant ‘fatherly’ but I found it actually means depriving someone of their rights and responsibilities because you have decided you know what’s best for them – and this just about sums it up.
I am basically fine now and happier than I’ve ever been, but it still bugs me that I wasted 10+ of the best years of my life obsessed with a drunken, drug-taking, commitment-dodging, future-faking egotist who witheld sex and bled me dry emotionally and financially. I suppose I was rebelling and he also had the coldness of my mother? Could it be as simple as that?
Apologies for waffling on! I don’t expect anyone to have the answers, it has actually helped just writing it down x
Lizzy
I think you nailed it. I’ve gone over and over it myself for years with therapy, counsellors etc. if you really want to know how to heal and move forward then heal and move forward. It’s one of those things you just have to believe in, have faith in, and do. Think skydiving. You can think and think and think but at some point you have to jump.
It’s safer than skydiving though, and not as pointless ha. Apologies to all you skydivers out there.
Eight years is enough now. As for the ten wasted years I was bemoaning these to my brother who said, “you can still learn from the wilderness”. Even if those years had been wonderful they would still be gone and all of us only have the present. Don’t worry it away. Enjoy it. We seem to need permission to do that. Well, I give it you!
Thank you, Grace, for replying to my rambling comment. Whenever I start ruminating over the wilderness years I’m going to remember that you told me to enjoy myself and try to do just that! As always, I appreciate your wise words x
PS that was not meant to be italics or bold! wrong html bits, sorry!
It’s incredibly tough to navigate your way through life when your primary caregivers gave you only bad things to work on. I am still trying to recover from it, but I feel lucky that I finally recognize their BS and now know that I am not a bad and disgusting being just because that’s what my mother thought (her own issues, obviously). I am not her. No matter how much she tries to make me feel guilty for enjoying my life. Still… I feel sad for her, because she never had the opportunities that I had and she did make me the person I am today… Instilled a great sense of purpose and seriousness. Wonder how much better it could have been if she had instilled a sense of wonder and love and acceptance of self.
This month it was my saughters birthday, her father randomly called. This upset her extremely. As he randomly calls. Future fakes and make promises never keeps. On this subject. I spoke with and told her it was perfectly normal to feel the way she does and that she is a wonderful person, whom im blssed to have in my life. That he does not in anyway reflect who she is as a person. However, my question to yo all is what should i tell my child, to lessen the effects in later life. How do you deal with this situation of a missing father turnng up on a whim. Would love to hear some advice on this matter Thanks!
Annie, maybe let him know that he can’t and won’t be permitted to turn up in a whim, to be a constant let down to his child. Some boundaries with these whimsical people wouldn’t go amiss, I think. Not getting any promises is better that getting a whole bunch of empty ones over years and years
I feel so lucky to have 2 amazing parents and even though they divorced when I was a teenager and my dad’s been gone almost 19yrs his love still surrounds me. I truly do feel bad for all the ladies who have posted their struggles with their parents and even though I can’t relate my heart goes out to all of you. After reading all the posts I truly am grateful for my parents and will make sure I tell my mom that tomorrow.
Hi Natalie! You said, “I cannot wish for what wasn’t. I can only appreciate what is, and this has a lot more value for me than anything I may think I’ve missed out on. I hope that you can do the same.” Yes! I’ve been doing it more since I read your blogs. Your insights have given me peace and courage and (most of all) reasons to move on after my last involvement with a guy must come to an end because he is an assclown. Thank you, again.
Victorious
Try not to berate yourself at being more concerned with the ex EUM than your father passing at the time. This is only my opinion, but I believe these unhealthy r/ships serve the specific function of distracting us from ourselves & whatever may need attention in our lives. This is partly why (conciously or unconciously) we choose them in the first place. We fear that we cannot cope with facing up to the real issues, & in the duration of the relationship those issues, of course start to expand & pile up. This is just the basic anatomy if you will of the function of such involvements. When we know better on a deep level, & see fully what such behaviour is costing us, we do better. We may not do better, perfectly, every time, but we strive for progress not perfection. You’re here at BR, which siuggests you’re on your way. Be gentle with yourself. Any Father who loves his daughter will understand. Show yourself the compassion & forgiveness a kind & loving parent would.
Natalie,
It’s interesting how life’s big events like holidays, weddings, deaths, births, etc can be a trigger for some in relationships. Your Father pushing boundaries ( I assume ) right before your wedding, a very special day for you, is very selfish in my opinion. He had no self control to just sit on his need to act out? Why do people (Fathers, mothers, lovers, siblings, etc,) let the wheels fall off during important times in life? It’s confusing to me, like they can’t handle the realness of good times, or are uncomfortable with someone else’s happiness so they sabotage it. I’m glad it all worked out though, just like the wedding dress.
I feel embarrassed for coming back to BR every time I try to get out of this sick (non) relationship. I was here last weekend and feeling strong about my resolve and there it was again. On Monday he calls and promises me the world. I believe him and by friday he just wants to be friends again.
I have finally had a confession that he is back using drugs on the weekends and that is why he goes missing. But the worst thing is that he is using with his ex. God knows what else they are doing. I feel so so so betrayed and hurt and angry. And I know with every inch of my soul that I need to get away but I am so addicted to him that I don’t know how I will maintain no contact. I am as addicted to him as he is to his drugs and his ex girlfriend. I am angry at him, the situation and myself. It is all such a mess and I wish I could escape it.
I don’t even have the excuse that I had an absent father.
this is literally my exact situation. i am constantly comparing myself to the ex and wondering what she has that i dont? i know hes addicted to drugs, and he wont let go of her. even when me and him are “good” he ends up leaving me for her. it’s a vicious cycle and he always say he’ll change but doesn’t. ugh, i need to break this pattern of behavior, stay strong scarlet
Go to Al Anon. Been there. Done that.
Actually my father may have not been absent, but my mother would go for days at a time without speaking with me. I was always too scared to ask what I had done wrong because the shame of knowing how I had upset her would be too much to bare as a little girl. My mum had a mental illness and I know she did the best she could but there was always this understanding that I had to behave the way she wanted me to or she would withdraw from me. That was so painful. So here I am and although intellectually I know that the treatment I am choosing to receive from this UEM is appalling, the little girl in me is always screaming for him to come back and talk to me and tell me he really does love me. I can never stand the silence of no contact as it takes me right back to the times when my mum wouldn’t talk to me. It is honestly excruciating.
Scarlet, the fact that you see this connection is enormously important and a necessary first step in becoming able to end your addiction. You have the awareness that you can’t leave this guy because you feel like a helpless little girl who desperately needs attention from her absent mother. For an adult, enduring the silence of no contact is just uncomfortable and miserable. But for this little girl, yes of course it’s excruciating. For her, of course the silence is unbearable. In times of stress, you immediately revert to the position of being a powerless child. (I know exactly what that’s like – when I feel helpless and powerless I often find myself sobbing for “my mommy.” And I’m in my 50s).
No amount of “intellectually” knowing what you need to do and what you should do is going to be effective in counteracting these powerful emotional triggers. Forget about trying to reason it out – your little girl will continue to control the situation until she gets what she needs. And the good news is she can get what she needs from YOU.
Have you ever tried dialogue techniques? You can talk to your little girl and assure her that she is safe and that she doesn’t have to be afraid of silence anymore because YOU are going to continue to talk to her and you will never leave her or ignore her. This may sound a little silly, but it’s enormously powerful. This technique is described in a book I found very helpful: The Journey from Abandonment to Healing by Susan Anderson. You can learn not to rely on any external source – not your mother, not a lover – to give you what you need.
I’ve been where you are and I know how excruciating it feels. But you ARE more powerful than you know. Good luck!
Hi all,
My therapist had me work on this technique.
Being an intellectual, I kind of went with it because my pragmatic side thought I was paying for my therapy so I might as well fully participate! : )
It sounds REALLY silly and FEELS really silly but stay with it.
Have 2 chairs facing each other. Sit down as the little girl and talk to your adult self as if it were a person sitting right in front of you. You can be angry, sad, crying, as vulnerable as you need to be. Then, once you have said what you had on your chest, switch chairs and answer to the little girl as if you were a caring parent or parental figure.
For one thing, you will realise that a lot of your internal dialogue belongs to the little girl part of yourself. You can even find yourself getting very upset and crying like a little girl!
You can do this for 5 minutes at a time, it doesn’t have to be a lengthy exercise. More importantly, you will find that switching roles make you feel in control as an adult:the positive results will manifest in real life.
Don’t be afraid to go really deep as the little girl:you will heal a lot from this exercise, and you will develop a relationship of trust between the little girl part of you and the adult, caring, parental part of yourself.
My therapist ( I used to hate people starting sentences with:my therapist said!) gave me the image of a little puppy. She asked me if I would hurt, kick a tiny little puppy under my care. Of course I said:No.
She proceeded to say that a vulnerable creature like a puppy or baby can’t be responsible for the way caretakers take care of them. Basically, it’s a good way to take the shame out of the equation, as it’s easy as an abandoned, neglected child to put the blame on oneself.
Imagine you are given a puppy/baby to take care of. It helps to use the puppy image because it’s not as loaded as having children for women.
It’s hard to accept that we must parent ourselves at whatever age we are. However, there is nothing comparable with the feeling of being in charge of our emotional well being. The effort and temporary discomfort is well worth it.
Taking back our power as women, adults, captains of our own ship is a journey worth taking.
Great idea, Rave! Thanks for sharing this technique. I’ll have to try it sometime.
I always used to joke that I am my inner child’s bouncer. I feel like the little girl Revolution is this brown-eyed little girl with a page-boy haircut and maryjanes, while grown up Revolution is in her kick-ass leathers and high-heel boots (move over boys). Makes me laugh. Maybe we can take this a step further and visualize ours and the other’s “persona” as we’re having the “conversation.” You gave us all some GREAT food for thought, Rave! 🙂
I think I will one day try this technique; thank you for sharing Rave.
I feel very split right now: my inner child is right here with me; for, I have learned to feel my feelings.
I dunno, I had an inner child moment, and it was a different type of pain; it was a real, deep pain…difficult to describe, but ….
I dunno, going this deep scares the %#&% out of me, but I think it would truly benefit me, and maybe I can let go of my childhood/dysfunctional family disappointments once and for all.
I dunno….
Wow, Scarlet I had to check and see if I had posted this and forgot.
My situation is almost identical to yours. My mom suffered from a very bad childhood and my therapist believes she had a mental illness from everything I’ve said about her.
One of the things she did was withdraw from me when she got mad at me. I remember her being so angry once and me literally begging her to forgive me but she wouldn’t. I had to continually beg her to make sure she still loved me. She too could go on for this for a few days. As an adult you are better able to handle these things and you realize people sometimes need time to cool off.
But, as a kid, this is the ultimate torture. Because if you do something and your mother no longer loves you, then you are going to learn to behave and do whatever it is it takes to not lose that.
Carry forward and I just got out of a R with an alcoholic a little over a month ago. Our r was dynamic was almost identical to that of me and my mothers.
I left him after finding out he was partying way too much with the exgf and she was over his house a few times a day and at night and he wasn’t telling me. I, too, had an addiction to him. Probably still do but it’s not out there like it was.
So, it’s quite uncanny that you share a very similar experience to me.
I started going to a co-dependents meeting every week and that has seemed to help.
Thanks so much for the advice Sadderbutwiser and wow, Itsmylifenow. That is truly uncanny. I do feel like I have been coming up against my past with everything that has happened with this man and I now feel like this is the last hurdle to get over when it comes to the healing from my childhood. I have got to a place where I do not blame my mum at all any more. She died three years ago and I struggled terribly for a year after her death. I struggled with such complicated grief because there was sadness, yet so much resentment, but I worked through it all and I got to a point where I truly forgave her and realised she did the best she could given her illness.
I guess what it comes down to now is the addiction to being told I’m loved. Hard to get over, but I’ll keep trying. It looks like you are no longer in that relationship with your alcoholic. Did you do NC?
Thanks, Natalie, for sharing this touching reflection. I admire how you draw lessons of crap – you spin gold of straw – and how quick you cut through the fog and pinpoint the real deal. I love how you walk your talk!
I got reminded of the time when I desperately wanted to have a connection with a man I decided to be THE ONE. And yes, over the whole time I didn’t know much about him, but the “CONNECTION” seemed to be indestroyable. It was like me holding a ribbon and constantly, constantly throwing it in his direction, pretzeling to make him take up the other end, what never happened. Thankfully, in hindsight. It made me realise that all my struggle was to get a surrogate Daddy connection. I denied it for long, but that was all behind it. No love.
I have observed that many people who claim to have a fantastic relationship with their parents, who talk with them daily/weekly extensively, caring for them, living with them, often by looking deeper are just throwing this ribbon again, and again and again in their direction in hopes the parents, even demented or old age, would finally take it up and do their job. The parents never did it but enjoyed the benefits of care and attention, even felt entitled to the care despite all their crappy parenting. When I asked those about their childhoods I had to listen to stories of neglect, disinterest, abuse and yet the adult kids were returning in the umpteenth attempt to get that parental love, approval and attention squeezed out last minute.
You helped me realise that after surviving my childhood, at least with age 18, I can do my own parenting. – Being a parent is a temporary job and it is said that our kids are just guests. After they’ve left the nest, they may return but then it is not parent and adult kid anymore but equals. They can become friends – but the same rules as for everybody should be applied. If parents showed shady behaviour, red flags and all the no-gos, why would we want to have them in our lives as friends? We refuse the friend cards of our exes for a reason, we can refuse the parental friend cards after their job expired.
After age 18, it is a new decision. We couldn’t be asked if we wanted to be born, thrown into this particular family. That was random. Neither parent nor children know which cocktail of traits will come up with a kid or be found in the parents. Obviously a mismatch can happen – quite often even as we see. Why trying the impossible? Boundaries it is and farewell.
“I have observed that many people who claim to have a fantastic relationship with their parents, who talk with them daily/weekly extensively, caring for them, living with them, often by looking deeper are just throwing this ribbon again, and again and again in their direction in hopes the parents, even demented or old age, would finally take it up and do their job.”
Yep you have it in a lot, but not all, circumstances. Thank you for stating this. So validating.
This post has resonated with me more than any other. I have struggled with my relationship with my father for almost 10 years now since my Mother left him. I have gone from being incredibly close to him, supporting him through a painful divorce to at present finding it very difficult to build up the strength to even spend time with him. Whilst it was my mother that left I have been able to find peace with my relationship with her as she has continuously made the effort to be open to listening to how I feel and working on building back up our relationship. In turn I feel that my Dad has turned his back on his responsibility as a parent to demonstrate his ‘unconditional love’ for his children. I think that the idea of unconditional love is too easily accepted as something that just exists without any need to prove or show that to the people it applies to. It’s not ok that just because someone raised you, they can take no interest in your life as an adult, make little effort to see or contact you or to address the issues that their choices have made in your life. Where I have fallen down is my inability to confront him about how he makes me feel….the big elephant in the room as you mention. I am scared that opening this box of emotions will lead me to say things to him that could damage our relationship irreparably. These issues have effect my self esteem massively and in turn the choices I have made in my own romantic relationships, being ‘drawn’ to a man that I know had no intention of committing to me, has trampled over every boundary I thought I had and even after breaking up I continued to chase this person in the hope that they would validate me and make me feel that I was worth sticking around for – issues I clearly have with both of my parents.
What I am still struggling with is the feeling that because these patterns keep emerging within my relationships that the root cause of that is me. I hope that I can get back to a place where I feel confident enough in who I am as a person that I can confront these issues and still feel ok with who I am.
I fee for you too Laurie. At least someone like myself knew no questions, flat out, the problem was clearly not me. 3 yo little girls cannot possibly be so terrible as to ’cause’ the carnage which ensued in my childhood. Of that I was always, quite certain. And I let it be known. Which, I’m sure is why they chose me of all the kids in one particular place to try to ‘break’ the most. Still, they could not break me. My intellect alone, saved me & I challenged their cruelty at every turn. It took quite some ingenuity to make my lawful escape aged only 15. That is a whole other story. I read stories like yours though, & the many here who had acrual familes & parents raising you, & think gee, that must have been so sad. I really do feel for all those who lived with parents who mistreated them. It’s really very sad. Stay strong everyone. Luckily as adults we create our own families of choice. They’re called friends! X
That is true Arlena. Mostly I agree. But there is another side I struggle with. Some religions say, we ought to honour our parents no matter what. That this as adult children is our duty to them. I wonder if this creed arose in the way marriage did? But instead of women being a form of property it was to ensure the elderly in society would be cared for in times past before the advent of elderly care homes? There is apparently an exception if the parent is or was abusive to the child. Then of course we bump against religious notions of forgiveness so we look at issues of degree, seriousness, frequency etc. It sounds simple the way you describe it, & at the very bottom line it is, but the world & it’s complexities, especially in the area of family of origin issues, is rarely black & white. We are more likely to extend a more generoue spirit to a parent for example who wrongs us, (or less depending on the history) than we might a friend. Your description though as a basic premise I think is sound & I would point out, applies to adult children also.
@ Hi teachable, mostly we get religious values from our parents or caregivers at a time when we are not able to make up our own minds. They can cause a lot of value clashes within ourselves later if we don’t challenge and re-evaluate them and consciously choose what is true for us. Follow you, not a dogma at least that is what I do. x
I related so much to your story about your father. My dad did the usual “I’m sorry” after each f*ck up and I just went along. But for several years now, I ignore it because he does not get it. He doesn’t and never will. How do I know this? Because he keeps doing the same stuff he’s always done except a little more low-key since the law is involved. I accepted and quite frankly don’t care that he will never be this father I wished I had. It sucks but well what can you do? It’s over.
I had an a-ha! moment when you said “Hence now even when things don’t go as I like, how I feel about me doesn’t change whereas before, I’d screw up and really give myself a hard time and withhold affection from me.” I do this…I beat myself up over even the slightest mistake and withhold affection from myself….because that is how my parents treated me when I did something they did not like. What a realization! I had no idea that’s what I was doing until now.
And the connection with someone I don’t really know….I had felt that with ex MM and it took me a few years for it to click that no matter the “connection” he simply is not good for me. He would have had to shape shift into someone else totally in order for him to be good for me. A few months back he was fishing in the middle of the night again via text. This time he was asking if I would talk to him again and if I did not respond he’d leave me alone. I did not respond.
Long ago, I wrote off my emotionally and physically abusive family and kept my vow to never have children so as not to continue the cycle of sickness. I do take care of my dad (from a distance ) as he suffers from many health problems due to decades of obesity and alcoholism. I have used him as a model of what not to be and what to avoid at all costs in a partner. We have never connected in any real way; our values are very different and that’s ok. I think that looking for a meaningful connection physically, emotionally, and intellectually like what I had with my ex is what caused me to stumble into this disaster with AC. Finally, someone I was attracted to that was highly intelligent, where I didn’t have to “dumb down” myself and I could speak freely about environmental issues without threat of retaliation. Unfortunately like many westerners (Magnolia take note here) he is also selfish and does not care a rats about how many women he hurts so long as he gets attention and adoration. I went to four local social events last night and felt zero real connection with anyone there mainly because I truly cannot say what I want to and also because there was a television on in two if the places which draws folks in like flies to a corpse. AC and I would joke about this as neither of us were tv watchers. I wish I could break this sense of connection with AC, I am still rattled by his showing up at mi casa last week. Same stuff, standing really close, touching, throwing complements like manure, offering to help with my building (more BS). I am really considering giving up connecting with anyone for awhile, plunging myself into complete alone-ness and just getting work done. Terribly frustrating and just leaves me sad. Oh, well, today is a day to lay mortar, get some work done.
I have had a connection with my sister only because she is my sibling. Throughout our lives I have always been the one making the effort. When I was divorcing a mentally unstable, philandering EUM she would say things like “we need to find you somewhere warm and safe to live” but the “we” was in reality me. Ok so she lived a 600 mile round trip distance from me but she never made any effort beyond her initial concern and visit to come and see me. We are now estranged again because I told her some truths and she clearly didn’t like them. Things like she never came to speak on the phone if I phoned as she was too busy and then it was days before she rang back, or that she only ever rang me to moan about our Mum, or was slotting a short call to me round her busy schedule and if we did speak for any length of time my nephew always interrupted plus she sidestepped my offers to visit. I just felt like I was an add on in her life and so if we go our separate ways then so be it. She is so selfish and has no concept of what my life is like as she never wants to know. She is a control freak by her own/others admissions and is a classic emotionally unavailable female. We have nothing in common as I am totally different and I have got tired of making this “connection” work when it isn’t there. She is an emotional vampire and trying to connect with her is unhealthy.
Well put… Yes I treat that very fast “connection” as a warning sign…
I have so many different thoughts going around in my head as regards this post. I’ve heard it said that parents get back from their adult children what they gave to them (their children) while they were growing up. I think there’s a lot of truth to this. I have no relationship with my father, but my mother is still married to him so I can’t completely sever ties. My mother and my brother judge me for my lack of contact and would prefer that I just pretend that everything is fine. I didn’t want him to attend an important professional event in my life and at the event, my mother got upset and told me that he would have liked to have been there. My only regret about the situation is that it does upset my mother, but I knew that having him there would make me uncomfortable, and moreover, I didn’t want someone there who has only tried to tear me down my entire life. I remember him as an angry, erratic bully. Though I rarely talk to him, at the end of the first year of my professional degree, I had a conversation with him in which he tried to get me to say that I didn’t like what I was doing and that I was going to drop out (I had actually had a great year and had done quite well). Afterwards he told my mother that we had a “nice chat”. If I could wave a wand and have had a “good” parent in place of him, I would, but I have no desire to try to have a relationship with him. It is what it is. I do get angry when I think about all the shitty behaviour I’ve accepted in my life because I grew up being subjected to it. I often felt like I was the only person who called him out on some of his behaviour and that I was seen as being the problem for not just putting up with his bs like everyone else does. My mother once said something like “he’s not always like that”–as though we should just accept it/him because sometimes he might surprise and not be an a**hole. While it saddens me to see how many people have had crappy parents, it’s really nice to know that there are people out there who understand. I generally don’t mention anything about my father to friends because I think most people don’t get it–the common thinking seems to be that of course one should try to make things better with a parent. I see no reason to do so in my case. He made no effort to get over his issues and be a decent parent. He always blamed me and “my attitude” for any problems, and it’s not as though he has ever had a conversation with me about wanting to make things better or where he took any responsibility for anything. I once heard him tell a relative that we were “the best of friends” until “the hormones kicked in”, i.e. I became of an age where I was capable of independent thought and didn’t just blame myself for his crappy actions. Apparently crazy female hormones made me have a problem with him an no one else from the age of 12 or so onwards….funny that.
at A
“I often felt like I was the only person who called him out on some of his behaviour and that I was seen as being the problem for not just putting up with his bs like everyone else does.”
Totally relate. You know though, someone sometimes needs to call out these people and I am okay at this stage with it being me; someone called out Hitler too, likely.
People always want others to shut up, until suddenly they need help. I am now toying with handing off the “baton” of my father’s care to my brother who, in his eyes, can do no wrong. If my dad is going to be abusive to me, then I am not going to sweat out going over his finances for him ( or lack thereof) and worry about the safety of his living conditions, he can do that with his favorite son, who doesn’t even care enough to step up on his own…egh.
Thanks, dancingqueen. I almost responded to your earlier post, but I wasn’t sure what I could say that would be of any use other than I relate to what you said about this being the one place where we can be honest about these things. I’m sorry that your father has been so horrible to you. I’m sure it feels like an extra slap in the face when you’re already being the bigger person by going to see him considering what a crap father he was. It’s obviously his issue and always has been. What kind of person treats anyone, let alone their own child, in such a way? It’s difficult to fathom and so hard not to take it personally on some level, even though intellectually we know that it can’t have anything to do with us.
natalie,
you brilliant thing you. this post is the crowning achievement, the crux of the matter, the seed, the kernel, the answer to the question of life, the universe, and everything. this is the core of BR.
i’m sorry it hurts. please, and i realize i’m giving YOU advice (how dare i!), see that some of these situations with our parents are extremely difficult to heal from, to let go of, precisely because of the unconditional love you referenced and how much we need them, if our parents make no effort to change. that right there explains a vast majority of all human behavior.
clearly, as you know, its him, not you, has nothing to do with you. and you’re already light years ahead of any of us because of how much you’ve figured out, that you are able to shine so much light on it for the rest of us.
you’re only human. and i hope you find peace with it very soon.
Natalie,
I agree with cc. (I seem to say that a lot, ha!) I think THIS post is your crowning glory and also somewhat of the crux of the whole EU/AC debacle. It was funny too, because when I first saw the title, I said to myself, “Oh no she DI’IN’T just bust out the daddy issues!” Ha! 🙂 I guess on some level I knew it was coming. I’m sure I we all needed to read about it as much as you needed to write it.
Good evening ladies, I’m having an off day please excuse me If I don’t make much sense, it’s along the lines of connection just in a different way.
I’ve been having the best weekend, I went to a fantastic seminar related to my field and all in all it was so great being around friendly like minded people and not thinking about the EX but about what I was doing for myself.
That was until…. I’m a dog trainer and I was talking to a few of the girls there about where and what dogs I’ve adopted and this one dog in particular to utter surprise they worked with intensively before I got her. I couldn’t beleive the “small world” of it all.
This dog was the reason I got into dog training and it was the best decision I ever made. I met the ex shortly after I adopted her and he was the first male she allowed near her (big step considering she would freak out when approached by any male even my brother) she made so much progress from then on, she was the buffer so to say for meeting his kids, it really broke the ice having her around on the first meet, she was amazing with them. She sadly died of cancer after only having her for 8 months and we were both devastated, we went to the vet together huddled and crying while she went to sleep for the last time. Even though its been over 3 years, this dog has left a huge impact on my life.
While talking to these girls, one of them bounced with delight that she had pictures of her pups (she had them before I adopted her) and she showed me. It was the biggest mixture of feelings I’ve ever had, joy at knowing they went to fantastic homes, the twinge of heartbreak seeing my dog with them being a mammy and how alike they all were to my lil pooch. I was the extreme of happy and sad at the same time and I was fighting back the tears. Suddenly as if everything these last few months just fell out of my head I said outloud “oh wow wait until I tell … oh thats right yeah”
I brushed it off when one of the girls said pardon. It was such a momentary relapse I kind of shocked myself – I had a few of them when we first broke up but its been 5 weeks official NC.
For the rest of the day it wasn’t in my conscious thought at all, it must of been mulling around subconsciously because even though I was participating and having fun, I felt very quiet and distant, compared to yesterday where I was full of beans.
I didn’t realise it until I came home that what happened must of been going through my head unknown to myself. The best way to put it was I felt really vulnerable and at times just wanted to curl into a ball.
This beautiful dog holds a lot of memories for me and there is that connection between the ex and her, and the kids and her then followed by the traumatic event of her passing. My brain is having a memory lane moment and im recalling things I thought were forgotten.
I’m quite teary and I know that I have to run with it and let the thoughts come and process them through. I think what has me more upset is that I was completely blind sided with this.
Hey G-Money, I’m so sorry for the passing of your beloved beautiful dog and the memories of the ex. Our dog passed in January after 12 years together. It was my daughter’s dog but it was really my dog. She loved the exMM and he loved her. He fed her table scraps, which we never did, and she loved it. She knew when he was coming over and I’d get the place mats out and start setting the table. She would run around chasing her tail. It was always a draw as to who would greet him first. She beat me most of the time cos she could sense it. When she passed, it triggered all the memories. The first time he was over, we were bbging and he slipped her a cracker. She wasn’t used to being fed table scraps and it bounced off her nose. I scooped it up wondering how the cracker ended up on the patio? They bonded at that moment. He knew how the cracker ended up on the patio and so did she. The three of us just stared at one another.
I was blindsided when she passed too. Is all I wanted to do was call him and tell him his favorite dog had passed. He had two dogs at home but she was his fav. We had soooo many funny moments with Mandy. Is all we can do is cherish those moments. I allow my brain to have those memory lane moments (your comment triggered several) and then it’s time to cut it off. It worked with the dog, it worked between the dog and him, it didn’t work with him and me cos he had a wife, three kids, and two dogs at home. So understand tho and I really miss those funny moments too.
Hi Runner,
I am so sorry to hear about your loss. I have a guinea pig [yes, a guinea pig] and people cannot believe how affectionate, & devoted this little guy is. He was a rescue and it’s like he has paid back my kindness beyone measure. I worry because they don’t live long enough and we just had our 5 year anniversary together. Like you, my a/c liked the little fella [everyone does] and I know when the time comes and my piggy & I must part, that it will trigger those memories too. Bleah,I hate this.. btw, Oct 1 was the a/c’s birthday and although I dreaded the thought of “that day”, I remembered his indifference to my many kindness’ [unlike my pet] and found I had way too much going on to even care about his birthday. Let his wife take care of it.
I have concluded that some of my boundary issues with guys are related to my dads past behaviour. My mum is a whole other can of worms. When I was very young he was convicted of indecent exposure to minors (teenage girls). Suspended sentence and sex offenders register. My mother was horrified, this made their temperamental (domestic violence) relationship worse. Broke up and the situation went from bad to worse. After foster care and a custody battle my dad got custody. YES READ THAT AGAIN. A registered sex offender (all be it a ‘minor’ offence) gained custody. He proceeded to continue his behaviour to one of my friends at age 11/12 and on the internet (which I ‘found’). I kept this hidden for a long time.
Eventually I confronted him aged 23, he tried to lie, but admitted eventually and I stated my feelings about him and it. I thought this would suffice, but I found myself cutting him out of my life for 6 months last year and contemplating our relationship. Which in general is a close one (despite this stuff). Eventually (after reading my social services records). I spoke to him and he completely let it all out. He admitted that he was not ready to look after me, that he was in denial about his issues and that perhaps I should not have been placed in his care. He apologised for the harm it caused me and assures me that he has been receiving psychological help for the last few years. I do get a genuine vibe from him about this and decided to take his word. Because as a dad we have a good relationship but if he is ‘still’ doing this behaviour then I will have to cut him out of my life until he sorts himself out. Its a tricky situation,in trusting him, but he knows that I will follow through if it happens. He only has me and his wife and I think he now realises the seriousness.
Apologies for the long-ness of this. I just wanted to share my experience as I have had ‘daddy issues’ fo sure!
I have related this to my trust issues – I think I have had trouble trusting in the long term. Is why I have ‘soiled my oats’. My recent abortion has really given me an insight into consequences and I feel a new amount of strength gained. Ive discussed my un ease with my sexual behaviour before here!
x
G-money. Cheer up. It’s perfectly normal for you to have thought of telling your story to your ex. 5 months of NC is really not that long. It will get harder, but then one day you’ll realize you’re not as despondent as you were when you started. That’s growth right there. I remember it was around that time (5-6months) that it was particularly difficult for me not to go back, especially knowing he would have loved me to do just that. But instead my resolve was becoming stronger every day and the heavy load I’d been carrying around was noticeably lighter. I was glad I had blocked him so that he could not call or text me and vice versa. I did that immediately, and it made NC more bareable–notice I didn’t say “easier”. It was NEVER easy.
Wow, you’re a dog trainer? That’s something I’ve wanted to do as a sideline for years, but I’m allergic to dogs, and cats. Pooh!
Stay NC, no matter what. I’m supporting you.
Hey Natalie, this post brought up some unresolved “mommy issues” for me. Thank you, I think. Even though my father was the perpetrator, I didn’t work that out until after my mother’s passing at 62 due to cervical cancer triggered by HPV due to my father’s sexual philandering. She was probably clinically depressed and justifiably so but in those days there was little to no awareness of depression. Thus, I became the surrogate parent to my four siblings and the surrogate spouse to my father. Of course, that will wreck havoc on a small child. I idealized my father who was important at work, held in the highest esteem by friends and colleagues, had the greatest sense of humor, was tall, dark, handsome, an AC of the highest order, very, very busy, and 100% unavailable. The apple didn’t drop far from the tree. It isn’t rocket science to figure out my past relationships with men. Since discovering BR, I’ve been able to off-load most/some of the daddy baggage. He is who he is. It has been disappointing to discover he wasn’t who I thought he was. The ex’s have helped in that regard as well. They weren’t who I thought they were either. Duh. The pattern is absurdly clear. However, I wish I could hug my mother and tell her it wasn’t her fault. She idolized me and I blamed her for the family discord. She seemed whiny, angry, and totally unable to cope. I resented her. Why did she keep having kids when she couldn’t raise them. I was 11 when I found out she was pregnant again with a fifth child. I was furious. Just another kid I’ll end up raising, which I did, however not very well as that one became a hard core drug addict. There was a moment right before my mother passed, when our eyes locked for what seemed like an eternity and everything went silent. It was like she was trying to tell me what had actually transpired and how much she tried but couldn’t. Obviously with what I understand now, she (no education and no job skills) couldn’t deal with a cheating AC pedophile with five kids. I wish she were here so I could tell her I know now and I forgive her. I truly forgive her. I know she tried to protect me. Since she is deceased, now I am left with forgiving me, yet a frigging again. Thank you Natalie for all your insights on forgiveness. Time to re-read. This parental baggage seems to be never ending.
Oh runner, so sad reading your post. Your poor mother (and poor you too) Some men have a bloody lot to answer for. I have no answers, just want you to know that I feel for you and wish you all the very best. Don’t reproach yourself for stuff way beyond your control and understanding. An old family friend said to me at my dad’s funeral, you’ve done all your praying for him, now you can pray to him’. And I do.
Runner
Oh that is very poignant. Hugs to you and well done for just being you.
Sorry. 5 WEEKS of NC?!!! Block his a**, now. de-friend from Facebook, whatever else necessary.
Tinkerbell, Oh his ass has been well blocked since last month, all emails, messages and numbers are deleted, didn’t want the temptation or leave anything open for him.
Thank you so much for your support, we broke up in July, talked briefly in August but told him to hit the road 5 weeks ago when I realised I was just asking for more trouble. It doesn’t sound that long even though it feels longer.
NC this time round is definitely bareable, compared to that first month ugh not worth thinking about.
I so very much concur – easy…I dont know what that word means at the moment.
AW no way, Poodles and Labradoodles are hypo-allergenic if you ever want to have a doggy around the house 🙂
Runnergirl Im so sorry to hear about Mandy, your story is very similar to mine about how they bonded together. I understand where you’re coming from, I can’t not enjoy the memories of my pooch even though some have him in them, she will always be my little girl even though she was huge. But I will practice that, allow the memories but have a cut off point and move it on to the next.
I thought about it afterwards and say for instance I felt the uncontrolable need (thank god I didn’t) to contact him about her pups. I think it would of been selfish on my part, news, whether its good or bad no matter what spin I could try putting on it, its something that would evoke a reaction and probably not one I’d be expecting either. Yes he shared those memories with me and my doggy back when but the situation has changed.
Thanks you guys so much for your kind words, I don’t know where I’d be without this website with the genius that is natalie and the compassion of you extraordinary ladies.
virtual hugs all round
This speaks to me so loudly. My father was absent much of my life and when he was around he made it miserable by being his addict, narcissistic self. He is a cruel, violent man unable to empathize. This is not my fault. I recently cut ties with him. I am seeing more and more each day that in order for me to be safe, happy and healthy I must never allow him in my life. This hurts. He is my only living parent. He is closer to a monster than a father to me. I did not make him this way and he is not going to change. He is fifty and still the same selfish, controlling, and abuse father he was all my life. Some days I find myself thinking maybe now I’m strong enough to have a relationship with him. “I can handle it.” Then alarm bells go off and I listen. That “I can handle it” mentality is exactly what I had with my ex unavailable and you know what, turns out I couldn’t handle it. My health was in shambles and I was edging toward death with an eating disorder. Mr. Ex Unavailable nor my father cared. My father made comments about me losing weight as if it were a positive thing. I was extremely sick and looked it too. The thing is neither my ex, any of my exes for that matter, nor my father ever deserved me. My father never deserved that beautiful little auburn haired girl that he abandoned, brainwashed and abused. And he will never be worthy of me. Ever. I must cut all ties and move on. Some behavior is so repulsive and unacceptable that no one should ever get a second or seven hundredth chance to repeat it. I’m not saying I won’t ever forgive my father. But I’ll do it on my own time far, far away from him.
Jennifer,
Brilliant comment. I’m sorry to hear about the neglected little auburn-haired girl. Sounds like she’s in good care, and well fed, now. Don’t worry. Her family will grow the healthier that her “primary caregiver” (you, of course) gets. Sending warmth to you. 🙂
ColorOrange. Good girl with the NC. Work it, girl!!
I’m having a meltdown! It has been six days and I haven’t responded to the exMMs offer to help me practice my interview techniques. I simply thanked him for the tips and left it at that. I won’t contact him as I refuse to demean myself, but I want him to contact me again! I’m feeling desperate for him to contact me again, I’m tearful, but I’m also feeling angry and resentful. He mentioned that he will be returning to the US next Sunday for a few months (he’s American but works here in Australia). He gets to go on with his life as if nothing happened. I’m trying to move on, but it’s so hard. It all hurts so much. I’m a grown woman, but I seem to have regressed and I don’t feel in control of myself. Runnergirl gave me some good advice (thanks Runner) and advised me to focus on why I was in that ‘relationship’ in the first place and I know it’s got something to do with my absent father who abandoned us when I was five, but I just can’t go there yet. What’s wrong with me?
Lilly
Breathe
Sink into your feelings
Some old wound is being restimulated here and feeling it all deeply will help it heal.
Regardless of what anyone says, this guy isn’t a monster and there is no way this experience hasn’t affected him deeply.
He hasn’t forgotten you, he hasn’t forgotten his baby no matter how it looks.
He has, however, chosen his path and this you must accept and face your own.
Sink into the feelings and be a safe space for yourself and allow the pain to surface and release and heal.
Breathe through it, let it roll like waves.
Sink deeper into the desperation, there is safety underneath all of those scary feelings, I promise.
You CAN and WILL live through this, you aren’t a small child, these are simply big feelings and your survival does NOT depend on this man in any way, shape, form or fashion.
Keep breathing, and let the feelings roll like waves…inhaling the feelings, exhaling release.
I’m holding you here in my heart right here right now. My baby says to tell you he knows your baby’s spirit and all is well, you are forgiven and you did everything perfectly and he lived exactly the life he needed to live. I hesitate to say this, but he’s insistent that I tell you there is a gift in this, he’s showing me a huge ruby, that you can’t see right now but it will come clear in time. (Compassion, he whispers).
Sunshine, I will have faith that there is safety underneath all these strong feelings. I know I’ve been avoiding and repressing my emotions. It feels safer somehow, but I can’t avoid them forever. I truly hope you are right and that he hasn’t forgotten the baby. It’s almost unbearable to think that he can just discard him as if he never was. I think it’s his lack of compassion for the baby’s passing that has hurt the most. Sunshine, the thought that someone is with my baby made me cry. I want him to be safe and I don’t want him to be alone. Thank you.
Lilly
In my imagination I gave my baby a beautiful mother to hold and rock him eternally.
So, often when I think of him, I see him being rocked by a beautiful woman, sitting by a window. She has kind brown eyes and infinite patience, milk, and is perfectly attuned to his every need. There is a loving father standing behind her, watching over them both.
More and more often I notice he’s growing and moving around and kind of tired of being a baby and as he stretches and grows I sort of lose track of him and the need to be so focused on him and feel him more as a living energy moving around me (wow just typing that up the scene dissolved and I feel a relief and now see/feel her image directly in front of my heart instead of off to the right like I’ve been seeing it).
You can choose companions for your son in your mind…the ‘real’ son has been buried, so the ‘alone’ one is only the one in your mind, which you do have some control over.
We can’t change the past or what happened, but we don’t have to be trapped in memories, punishing ourselves forever, either.
My heart feels so full of love and compassion for you right now..Lilly you are stronger than you know.
((((Lilly))))
Lilly,
I can’t improve on what’s already been said, but perhaps I can add a perspective.
You are at your own centre. That’s you, not he. You are the one in control of you. You are the sun to so many orbiting planets. The exMM is one of those planets orbiting you, near or far. Whether he’s physically in Aus or Stateside, it doesn’t change the fact he remains one of your many planets. Do not panic over his location because he remains in the same orbit around you every day. That won’t change until you want it to change. Leave him there, undisturbed, in orbit. In future, once the panic is gone and you feel steadier and better grounded in your feelings, you will be able to decide what to do about that planet and that orbit.
Grizelda, your comment “you are the one in control of you” is empowering and has helped calm me down. Your analogy was so helpful. I don’t want him to go yet as there are still some things I need to work out. Not with him physically, but in my own mind. So metaphorically speaking I will keep him there undisturbed until I’m ready to let go. He can’t leave until I say so and I will eventually say so. Thank you.
Lilly,
I am sorry you feel you are having a meltdown. Could it be the fact that the exMM’s leaving the country feels too close to the feeling you had as a child when your father left? Perhaps it feels like a somewhat permanent separation that you have no control over? I am not a psychologist, but I have had daddy-abondonment issues too, and I think a situation like yours might bring those feelings to the surface.
I can relate to the feeling that you want the exMM to contact you again, even though YOU have decided to go NC. It was my birthday on Saturday, and a part of me was hoping the exMM would email me happy birthday. he didn’t. It’s for the best. Your exMM is not contacting you. It is for the best.If he had contacted you, and then left, it may have hurt even more, I fear.
Whether your dad is with you or far away, and wherever the exMM is located, you, Lilly, deserve love, care, trust and respect. I hope these painful feelings run their course, do the work that is necessary to help make sense of things, and that afterwards you are left with a feeling of peace like you have never felt before. Talk to your counsellor about it, or to a close friend, keep posting here, and keep putting you first Lilly. I wish I could say more to help you feel better, but please know that many of us are here for you, are thinking of you, and wish you healing and love. Big hugs NC sister xxxooo
Learner,
I was hoping you were there. His leaving the country does feel like he’s abandoning me for good and yes, I believe it has everything to do with my father leaving when I was five (for an OW ironically). He died a few years later so I’ve never had the chance to work through anything with him. My poor mum suffered so much as she was left to raise three small children. It was planned apparently, but she says she had no idea at the time. He literally got up one morning and left. I remember my mum’s distress and my own. I’d idolized him. My mum is an amazing woman though and did a great job bringing us up. It was sometimes a struggle financially, but she was always full of love for my sisters and me. Perhaps understanding the parallels between my past and present will eventually help me get through this nightmare.
Learner, it must have been painful when he didn’t contact you on your birthday. I agree it was for the best, but I know it would have hurt. Happy Birthday for Saturday and I hope you celebrated with people who love and care for you. I will have a glass of wine and toast your birthday on the weekend.
Your wonderful support and that of others has really helped me and I’ve calmed down quite a bit. Coming here has stopped me doing something I’d regret. I honestly cannot take any more pain. Learner, I’m back joining you with NC. I know I’m harbouring some residual hope, but I will eventually let it all go. It’s the connection I feel with my baby and him that’s difficult. I still don’t understand it, but I will. Thank you my NC sister and hugs to you too, xx.
Lilly,
Your father story is very sad, but I am glad you have a loving mother to raise you. It’s good that you are feeling better about the exMM situation, and that you are reestablishing NC. Let us know how you get on. Thanks for the birthday wishes. Strength and love to you xo
Lilly
I don’t know if this will help but when going through all the emotional turmoil of the ex eum I learned you cannot rush the process it takes time to sift through everything and face things. Advice given to me at that time was to go easy on yourself and be gentle grief is a long process with setbacks along the way but there is light at the end of the tunnel.
Tulipa, yes I’ve been guilty of trying to rush the process. I was NC for three months, and thought I was further along than I actually was. It was necessary, but breaking NC to ask for a reference set me back quite a bit. I obviously cannot handle communicating with him at the moment and finding out he was leaving the country really set me off. I now have the reference and will keep moving forward. Thank you for helping me.
“I cannot wish for what wasn’t. I can only appreciate what is, and this has a lot more value for me than anything I may think I’ve missed out on. I hope that you can do the same.”
Thank you for “this.”
God is my Father: my biological father and mother? I dunno…they ‘had’ me. Sometimes I think they did their best–they came from screwed up families, blah, blah– but other times I really don’t believe that; I think they could have tried harder to turn their lives around and become better people, make amends, and I feel a need to judge them…deem them weak, and swear never to be like them…, then I find myself reminding myself not to judge them; I feel compassion and mercy for them, then I leave it to God, but these feelings and decisions and emotions don’t come so easily as in some righteous fairy tale.
I have always wanted a ‘normal’ family. Yes, I think I missed out on having a ‘normal’ family, and around the holidays and special occasions it gets hard; for, this has been a source of my deepest pain–the pain–my pain.
I dunno…. I think my perspective is changing. I really get that “it is what it is.” I believe I have accepted that “this” is something that I can’t change; it still hurts though.
I love my son. He is my family, and I love God; I value them tremendously, and I think that “this” is how it is–there it is again..it just is…. I dunno…knowing it is what it is, doesn’t stop those moments where I feel all alone in the world, and sometimes holidays and special occasions really make me miss being a part of a ‘big’ loving family with aunts and uncles, cousins, and grand parents, and sometimes being around other people’s seemingly “big happy families,” oh, that hurts, and even when people mention their husbands, sometimes I feel sad…like I’m missing out….
I sometimes wish that I was still married, but I was married to the ‘wrong’ man, so….
I dunno if I am ever going to get married again; I don’t know if I am ever going to fall in love, to really love. After all, there are plenty of women (and men) who never find “that.”
I’m grateful for the love I share with my son and God. I am grateful for the opportunity and the wherewithal to gain understanding of what love is and what it is not, and I believe that I am capable of great love in many forms, and that I have yet to experience so many wonderful things in life that I think are coming my way; I have hope and faith.
((((BIG hugs))))On Leaving Sugarland,
What a sweet comment. Thank you for sharing. I feel the same way that you do sometimes, especially around couples and families.
When I read your comment, it made me think of a conversation I had with a married friend of mine. I said to her, “I don’t want to be pitied for being single.” She looked at me with a deadpan face and said, “Girl, people don’t pity you. They ENVY you.” We both laughed, though she was serious. And she’s in a happy marriage too. Still, I loved her honesty. Made me feel good. Hopefully it will help to lighten the mood for you too. 🙂
Awww, thanks Revolution, 🙂
Sending (((((BIG Hugs)))) your way!
On Leaving Sugarland
P.S. Hmmm, my perspective is stirring a bit
To all of you…we are kindred spirits for sure..
After seeking out article after article about why I keep becoming involved with unavailable AC’s, I had an internal epiphany almost at the same time as I came across this post!
To reiterate the comments here…I have discovered that my poor patterns of choosing men comes from learned behaviours from long ago…
It’s not my fault any more than it is my parents’ fault for raising me in a dysfunctional environment. It just happened…
Now that I recognize that the silent treatments, the emotionally unavailable Mom and the rarely available Father whom I placed on a pedestal as an only child – all contributed to why/how I make the choices I do….I can finally take the steps necessary to correct old habits! This is a big day!
I am not the scared, lonely, desperate to be loved little girl any more. I do not need smatterings of attention from AC’s to feel validated any more. The next time one of the two AC’s I have allowed to boomerange into my life the past 2 years shows up again, I will NOT be available.
I do deserve to be loved – all the time. I do deserve to be treated well – all the time. I do deserve to be cared about, cared for, protected and loved.
Not only do I deserve it, I will get it – because it’s going to come from me….
Thank you all for sharing…I am not the only one…yahooo!
Love to you all – from Canada xoxo
PS…an additional post. Do you know the type of guy I have gone out with for five years? Either military, police or firefighter.. NOT because I am a badge bunny – it’s because they SYMBOLIZE protection..
I was an only child – and have been a single Mom for 14 years…and although I have proven over my 46 years that I am capable of a successful, rewarding life alone – I always look for the type of man who could finally come and save me from a life of handling everything alone all the time..
Funny thing though – alot of these men are emotionally unavailable (they shut off from the stresses of the jobs), they have addictions (from the stresses of the jobs) and can only be available for me when the rest of their life is quiet. My father was always busy – and I got his attention on Sunday’s..in between his paper-reading and his naps. My Mother was too busy trying to get my Father’s attention so she neglected me…. and so I have gone after man after man who portrayed the exact same scenarios.
It wasn’t normal if I wasn’t chasing love and affection and needed someone to pay attention to me…
Wow.
Hope this helps others…
“I was an only child – and have been a single Mom for 14 years…and although I have proven over my 46 years that I am capable of a successful, rewarding life alone – I always look for the type of man who could finally come and save me from a life of handling everything alone all the time..”
WOW Northstar. This statement of yours hit home for me. I’ve been alone a lot too. I wasn’t an only child per se but I was a LATE child and so I was alone most of the time like an only child (sisters all grown)and then I’ve been a single mom myself for a total of 6 years so far and it will be another 12 years until my youngest is an adult. Yes I do everything on my own and felt as though I kinda raised myself too because my parents were older and not as “hands on”. Although I don’t look to men with badges, I have looked for strong men who perhaps know how to take care of things and fix things around the house :).
Northstar, thank you for your thoughts, that’s how I feel as you said: ” I always look for the type of man who could finally come and save me from a life of handling everything alone all the time..” I have few problems in my life right now and instead of facing them, I still hope that one day someone come and save/change it for me…Ughhh..
Hi everyone..I have been 120 days now with no contact with my 2.5 yr virtual friendship of someone in another country. I still feel extremely sad and I don’t know why? I have no urge to contact him when I thought I could not go one day without talking to him. It is a constant battle with my heart and my head. It helps to know so many people here are struggling like me. I come to BR to find more strength. I think this fantasy relationship is going to take longer to get over then one in “real” life. I am angry at me for the self destruction this has caused me. Why is it so hard to let go of the fantasy? I used escapism as a child to cope with dysfunction in my household and I suppose I am still doing it. Thanks to this site and all the great women out there!!!
hi, yes i know what you mean about using fantasy growing up. I had forgotten how much I did that as a child – even from an early age (primary school age)I had loads of fantasy’s about who I wished my mother was etc etc. The penny has only recently dropped that there is a link between this and the many dates/half baked relationships I have had, where 1 text = a few days fantasizing, 1 call = few weeks fantasy and a whole single date = months of dreaming. I must be mad!! I have also spent a year trying to get over someone where nothing actually happened. So difficult. I try to keep busy and remind myself of the not so nice side of him (vs the peddlestool version where he is The. Most. Perfect. Man.) I try and focus on me and sometimes even ask myself “how is this helping me to be thinking of x now”….
it is so hard to let go of the fantasy, because initially it made you feel so good. it’s like a drug. whether the relationship was ‘real’ or ‘fantasy’ doesn’t matter, the feeling is/was the same. you are going through withdrawal. i’m going through the same. it sucks.
I think what you said about ‘connections’ is quite interesting.
Funny, I was just asking myself what I thought about the ‘connection’ that I had with my ‘ex’ because it seems to be the only thing ‘left’ between us, and I found myself wondering what he was thinking when he was looking at me with such intensity, and what he was feeling, as he always used to watch me from a distance and smile or seem to ponder, as I did him.
And, I remember feeling so ‘connected’ to him, and believing that he felt ‘connected’ to me.
Yet, he never told me: “Hey, I feel really connected to you,” and vice versa….It was more like something that I thought we both knew; something that didn’t need to be said because it was written all over our faces and conveyed magically through energy that was bouncing back and forth, from me to him, and back again….
I just know that it was this “thing”; this “thing” that I felt that made me decide that no matter what happened between us, we were meant to be together because we had this “thing” between us.
And, I remember with another ‘ex’, I even told him something like “I feel so connected to you,” and he in return called it a “bond,” and he said “I feel it too,” and sheesh it really felt like we were so powerfully connected, but again it was just this thing. This thing that had seemed to grow between us as we interacted with one another.
I dunno what ‘connections’ really are…hmmm, but these ‘connections’ didn’t stop one of my ex’s from, shortly thereafter, deciding that he wasn’t interested in being in a relationship with me, and in the case of my most recent ex, this ‘connection’ and how amazing and awesome he told me he thought I was…, well it didn’t stop him from telling me to “go to hell; f**k you; and you %^&*” when he got angry with me for not wanting to play virtual nasty with him, and ‘calling him on it,’ enforcing my boundaries and stating my limits etc.
And, I did not behave so well myself, despite this powerful ‘connection’.
I believe in connections, but I think some of them are only ‘connections’, and I think it takes the discovery phase…and all of the things that Natalie talks about … a progressive relationship, etc to find out which one it really is…there are real connections, but they are based in reality, and I like it when I feel connected to someone, but being ‘connected’ to me is just a feeling or the sensations of addiction or longing or…, and so I am willing to feel it, but it won’t stop me from using my head,…er, I can handle feeling ‘connected’ to my ex now because at the same time I am feeling that ‘connection’, I have other feelings and thoughts of “that guy abused me; I didn’t like that;he really hurt me; damn that hurt; he will probably do it again; I don’t want to be treated that way; it is too bad cuz I liked him, but it is what it is; I must have some childhood shit going on in this that makes me feel ‘connected to him; blah, blah; I don’t want his ass; I want someone who treats me better…lovingly, with care, respects me… and ….”
Huh. I don’t feel so ‘connected’ to him any more…most days anyway…sheesh…. 🙁 🙂
That connection, that “thing”, probably trigger something inside that is akin to a 6th sense or a 4th dimension. I think we might only experience this kind of magic with love or certain times in life when we feel in awe, such as in nature, being connected to a place.
Personally, I feel that it doesn’t mean that we can be together on the plane of reality. I think that’s why these guys can’t be in relationships with us. They might feel that incredible connection, but they can’t make it work in real life because the connection is from another plane of consciousness, way of being.
I think for the most part, as human beings, we do not use all our potential. I think this connection is probably the blissful way we should feel at all times, not just with men but with all living beings.
There is a magical side of life that we rarely get to touch, and these men, for some reason, open the door, lettings us have a glimpse of the magical, non logical side of life. Unfortunately, they do break our hearts and expectations on the reality plane.
I’ve experienced those strange connections where I felt like I had found my twin, to have the connection completely vanish, from the actions or non actions of my twin in heaven.
Possibly the magic is in us and makes us inspire people who don’t have the courage/ability to maintain a magical element in life, to get closer to us, without having the courage to stay so…
@Rave
There are some beautiful ideas in what you wrote. Yes there are so many magical things about life; it is such a beautiful gift.
I don’t want to ever forget to live, and enjoy my passions…just enjoy my days.
I am of the hope that you will connect with your Twin.
God Bless,
On Leaving Sugarland
Lily
I would guess that the wY you’re feeling is a consequence of the recent communication with him and knowing that he’s going away soon. When the date has passed and you know he’s gone for a good long time you will find that although you may still feel sad the tension and anxiety will pass over. I started going to meditation classes and found that helped a lot when the feelings of panic and anxiety threatened to overwhelm me such that i could barely function or think about anything else.
It will pass over, whatever you do; but there are ways of getting over it quicker.
I believe “Getting Past Your breakup” is recommended as being helpful in this regard though I haven’t read it myself.
Mymble, you are right I’m clearly not able to handle any communication with him yet and the thought of him going away makes me anxious and sad. It’s difficult because he offered to help me so presumably still wants to be in contact with me, on some level anyway. I know instinctively to keep away and not take up the offer as I know more pain is in that direction, but I wanted to say yes so badly and re-engage with him again. I made the choice to ignore his offer, but it hurts. I could still take it up; it’s not too late, but I won’t, actually I can’t. Emotionally and physically I’m unable to take any more. I probably sound like I’ve lost my mind, but I’m just overwhelmed and a bit shocked at my reaction to a little communication. Thank you, Mymble. Knowing that others have experienced the same feelings and knowing they will pass is really encouraging and I will check out the book.
Sorry you are in pain Lilly. You are doing the hard work right now…keep going and don’t reach out to him. You will only regret it and feel worse than you do right now.
I hear you and the others about the father thing. I’m not sure but maybe therapy is the best way to tackle that when you are ready.
I myself have struggled with this post only because I DO have abandonment issues and have made bad choices in men, including MM. But the catch is, I had a good childhood and my father was a good parent. No, he wasn’t perfect and my mother wasn’t perfect either but for the most part, they did a great job. My father was old school with leaving most of the child rearing to my mom and he worked a lot. I guess that was the biggest void he made but I can’t blame him for it. It’s what he knew, and he was providing for us the best he could.
I’m sorry so many of you didn’t have safe, loving homes. I can’t even imagine….and being a mom now myself my biggest priority are my children and their safety and well being.
So why am I struggling with these issues and picking bad men? I can only blame myself and try to make better choices. This place has been my lifeline for the past few months.
Lilly, I am wanting my AC to contact me again too, even if it’s only to ask me to come over for a shag (which it would be). If he does, I won’t respond. Last week he asked me to just come for a “naughty lunch” after not having asked me out for over a month, not speaking to me or even asking me how I am doing. Lilly, it’s a time for strength and to live our lives without these scum bags. WE WILL GET THROUGH THIS!
JR, The AC asking you to come over for a “naughty lunch” just makes me mad. I know the exMM used me for sex and it feels humiliating. Before we even had sex I told him (and myself) that I was likely to become emotionally attached if we went ahead. He (of course) told me he was already emotionally involved and I bought it. I wanted to believe it I suppose. This whole situation feels like a nightmare and I can’t wake up, but I’m determined to keep trying to move forward. This place has been a lifeline for me too. If I feel like reaching out to him I come here instead. It has saved me many times. Thank you for your encouragement JR and yes, WE WILL GET THROUGH THIS!
I have been thinking about your post a lot in the past few days, Natalie. Also, I saw my EU on the beach over the weekend (from afar, and he didn’t see me, I don’t think). I was with a friend of mine, and when I realized it was him, we walked the other direction. (This yammering on DOES relate to this post, so wait for it… :))
Anyway, I was really sad to see him, and especially to see him with other friends that we used to hang out with together. I’m telling the friend i went to the beach with all of this, and she asked innocently, “Wait…but you were the one that ended it, right?” And I thought, yes. Yes, I did end it. So why does it feel like he is the one who abandoned ME? Partly, I think it’s because I felt like I had no choice BUT to leave. It was either that or lose my self-respect. But, of course, that’s a choice too, isn’t it?
Anyway, this led me to thinking about how I’ve left relationships all of my life. And though they were ended for good reasons (I never left a healthy relationship, because I haven’t had one yet!) I realize, after reading this post, another level of my pattern: it seems like I have an unconscious need to be the “leveler” of sorts. It’s like in the next generation executioner come to make up for my mother being cheated on and left. I’ve come to settle the score with these types of men. Hence my name, Revolution.
I remember when I was 18 years old, just before I left home, I sat on my bed in my room and heard my mom on the phone with her boyfriend after finding out that he was seeing other women. I was so hurt for my mom. And I was SO ANGRY that this was done not once, but twice, to my mother. A good and kind-hearted woman, she didn’t deserve those douche bags. I said to myself, “That will NEVER be me.” I think I just took on this feeling of trying to subconsciously avenge my mother by dropping the men I date on their asses. But, of course, that doesn’t solve anything. I know that now. I think I always knew that, though those subconscious coping patterns are a bitch, aren’t they?
So here I am. 35 years old. Not able to save my mother. Not able to make up for any of the crap she went through with men. Trying to find a way for all of that to be okay. Looking for a healthy man to share a life with who can appreciate my wild, but loyal heart.
we don’t *know* these people, and these people *don’t know us*
they don’t really want to know us, they are too limited in their abilities to know us, they are plainly incapable of knowing us.
G-money.
SOOOOO Proud of you!
This is timely. I know someone who needs to see this and I’m gonna e-mail her this link; she’s experiencing similar issues with her father at this very moment. I’ve also dealt with something (somewhat) similar with my father. I appreciate your frankness about your father so that it can help others.
I hear what you’re saying Anon. There’s no suggestion he’s been abusive to wife number two though. There’s much I could say but I’ll save it for the therapist. You know, all that work I’ve done, & I now realise, I haven’t really looked at him in any great depth. He went missing & that was that. I just accepted that was my lot in life. Something Gina said made me realise I have more work to do. I don’t want to seek a.father figure in a r/ship. I don’t think I would, as I made that mistake already as a young woman & vowed not to repeat it (so far I haven’t but who knows. Now I’m older & more fragile. It could.happen…) I’ve been asking the universe to bring love into my life when I am ready. I need to have hope. I’ve been single most of the past 17 years. I definately have trust issues. The story above is reason enough when it comes to men. I see it so clearly now. I thought it was some of the more traumatic things but what my adopted Dad did was bad enough. What that then led to is the stuff of your worst nightmares. I feel so different to most of you. I know I’m not but I sometimes feel it. I wonder if this is the low self esteem bug a boos. You’re all very inspiring. We’re very lucky to have this site & Nat’s posts & books to make us think & grow.
Selkie,
I often enjoy yr posts & admire yr spirit. I just wanted to say I’m so sorry to hear of the violence you witnessed by your father as a child. Your right he is abusive. What he did to your beloved animal’s is cruelty in the extreme, & a criminal act which would be prosecutable in many states, although it’s perhaps too late for that now. Your Dad does sound like he may be a psychopath also. You made the right decision. Take care of yourself. It’s ok to walk away in such situation for protecting ourselves must come first (I have done the same with my Mother). Big hugs. T x
Scarlett.
Google ‘repetition compulsion’. I believe this may be partly what you are expeiencing. It is where we experience a traumatic event (or series of events, in this case, your Mother’s abandonment), & we then involve ourselves in situtations where we re-expose ourselves to that same trauma in a compulsive way (repeated abandonment by your love interest).
It’s not a co-oincidence that you find yourself in such a predicament. The theory posits that you are attempting to gain mastery over the original trauma (in which you were powerless) but repeating it over & over in the new scenerio. That will not ocurr though as in fact what you ought to be doing is PROTECTING yourself from exposure to any further trauma, rather than re-exposing yourself to it again over & over, as the latter merely compounds the damage inflicted upon you, rather than heals you in any way.
That is just one aspect of your situation.
Also google, ‘love addiction’ & ‘co-dependency’. You ARE addicted to this guy just like he is addicted to drugs except your’s is a process addiction (an addiction to a behaviour).
This will get you started. Also get Nat’s books, including the No Contact Rule. This is going to be though a tough habit for you to break, but break it you must, for the sake of your sanity.
I wish you well.
Natalie,
“Of course this isn’t going to happen if a lot of your identity is based on your experience…of being parented by someone who was emotionally …absent and/or you’re living in the past.”
I am sorry you had the tension with your father on your wedding day. Those significant events can always intensify issues. I have also had conflict with my dad, and fought for his love and affirmation, but always felt a deep “connection” to him. This may explain my perceived deep connection with the exMM, which persists despite the knowledge that he is a womanizer, and is not good for me.
My dad has many issues (with alcohol, cheating, liking very young women, needing constant praise) and has not always treated me with love and respect. He has done some work on himself, though, and apologized to me in a letter a few years ago. There are some behaviours that still confuse me, though.
On Saturday he attended my birthday celebration. When I was opening gifts while guests were watching, he asked me to open his gift last. I honoured his request, and his gift was really nice – something he had made for me and had obviously taken considerable time and effort. The confusing part is – after I had opened it, he took it around to show each person individually. At this point I was hugging the guests/family to thank them for gifts. I didn’t get to hug him as he was in a different spot showing off his gift. He chastised me for not hugging him, so I hugged and thanked and praised him. I wonder if he had made that gift for me and me alone? Or was he merely seeking attention for *himself* for it? I don’t know why, but when it comes to my dad, I have a very hard time deciphering his motives. Hmmmm, I could say the same about the exMM. Very, very interesting!
Learner
It’s easier to see from the outside but he needs approval. A lot. It points to insecurity, it’s not to excuse him but he’s just human. I hope things get better between you or at least bearable (let’s not hope for too much, ha). Sometimes age can mellow them.
Grace,
You were right! When I read your response that said he needed lots of approval, I emailed him to thank him again for his thoughtful gift. He replied with the longest email I have had from in ages, explaining how he came up with the idea to make it for me. It feels like he may actually be turning a corner in relation to me. I guess I need to keep giving him lots of approval (a bit of a hassle, but not too bad) to keep things “good” between us. I give him ego strokes, he treats me well – a small price to pay, I suppose!
That’s true Arlena. I’m not religious. But I do pay attention to some of the values they teach (buddhist mostly). I sometimes envy people who arebut I have a different faith. No less strong but more organic. I did try religion, most earnestly, as a child. I could not reconcile it with my everyday experiences however. I prayed for protection, for my sister mostly, which never came. God ceased to exist for me then. I tried again when I was older. This time, I could not reconcile it with my scientific training. Alas, there are many ways to enlightenment. We can learn much still, I think, from the wise philosophers of many great religions. Even buddhism, at heart, though, has it’s share of dogma (sadly).
Sent the link to the person, and she said that it was spot on just like her father. I hope that she begins reading the site, and I’m sure that she’s grateful to know that she’s not alone or “crazy”.
Hi Everyone, I needed some advice from my fellow BR readers and i was hoping I could get some help. . After having gone NC for about a year, I wished him happy birthday onhis birthday and we ended up speaking on the phone, this was after several attempts of him trying to get in touch with me. It was a catch up session during which he also asked me if i was seeing anyone to which i politely declined to answer. It’d been a year since I last spoke to him, during that time I gained a lot of perspective and I felt like I’d gotten over him, but after speaking to him I realized that that wasnt the case. I’m tempted to call him again but who am I kidding, if he were really interested he would have made the effort a long time ago. I guess I just miss him or the fantasy of us being together. The other thing that bothers me is that when we spoke on the phone he talked about gaining more perspective on life and it seemed like he’d changed and it has somehow made me feel like Ive lost out on someone I used to get along great with and had a ‘great connection’ with. The relationship was pretty non-existent, i never really got what I needed fro
Him and what had helped me go NC was the fact that he was a jerk, did some really mean things to me. Somehow the catchup session made me feel like i now needed to discount all the bad things in the past because he put up a/ or has become better person (?). I feel as if the main source of strength was derived from the fact that he was a jerk to me. Somehow my vacation time has been occupied by these thoughts and i just want to go back home and be depressed. My judgement is clouded because I dont know what tothink, i keep repeating the things i learned to help me gain my perspective back, but I feel like Im struggling. Why cant i be strong enough to let go? Why do people like him and I exist, it’s been a year , isnt it high time I got over this for a relationship that lasted less than two years? I txted him yesterday with a funny picture and didnt hear back, i guess i did that to test the waters. I miss him but i need my perspective back. Thanks in advance! <3
I don’t have any great advice to give because I am in the same boat you are. You sound like a deeply compassionate person. It also sounds like your love-object has been trying to get his act together. I don’t know what to say. As I say in my following post, I just rode that roller coaster again – allowed myself to be a UAM’s best friend and confidante 9 months after our love affair ended (he’s a MM and he went back to his wife and entered sex addiction therapy.) I tried in these last two months to support him in his recovery, but I knew, the entire time, that I was still too tangled up in my own feelings and love-addiction to be the true friend I hoped to be. Without explanation, he retreated back into his shell, and I feel rejected all over again. I think, somewhat unfortunately, that it takes more than a few months or a single year for two love-addicted people to be able to rebuild a healthy relationship. You probably need to experience that with someone with whom there has been no damaging history. Kudos to you for all the good work you have done last year. Don’t worry, you wont go back to square-1 for having contacted him, and for feeling insecure again. Your recovery from this bump will be much faster. Keep carving out space for yourself. Keep exercising compassion for yourself. Exercise compassion for him, but trust that he will get that active support from other people. You, ironically, will be able to be his true friend, again, once you are able to let go of all attachment to him. Much love!
There is no saying how long it should take to getting over someone (although I remember reading with sadness the cautionary tale of a life-long mistress who regretted the 30 years (!) which she had given up in pursuit of her MM). I suspect that we do not do ourselves a favor when we beat ourselves up about this. Beating ourselves up about our hang-ups is just another way to stay hung-up. Keep up the good work rebuilding the rest of your life. Are you engaged in other social activities, or activities which bring you out of yourself, like volunteering? I find that this helps me immensely, even though I am far from the model-example of recovery from fantasy relationships.
Boy oh boy. Timely. I’m picking up the pieces after falling off the NC wagon YET AGAIN. I am realizing that I never fully committed to NC in the past. The UAM whom I can’t shake runs hot and cold. I tell myself that I am NC when he chooses to go dark for weeks or months. Sure, in that time, I do not contact him, but the second he decides he wants contact, I’m right there. Guardedly, at first, but it doesn’t take me long to fall back in my MO of being the fall-back girl. For better or for worse, we don’t have sex or romance, but its still no different to be his confidante, his “best friend” (but only over e-mail) for the 2 months that he resumed interest in me over the late summer. There I was, giving him the daily ego stroke while he claimed to be in an “uncertain” place, again with his marriage. Then, a few weeks ago, his contact all but dries up. I spend the first two weeks beating myself up. What did “I do wrong”? Nothing, ladies and gentlemen. The UAM runs hot and cold, like clockwork. No need to lecture me. I feel enough like an idiot. What have I done, this time around? I have finally set up the e-mail filter that keeps his messages from making it into my Inbox. Symbolic, but its the most proactive thing I have ever done. Feels good to not experience constant waves of rejection when logged into my e-mail. I am interviewing therapists so that I can re-enter counseling and conquer my love addiction at its roots. This is the fundamental problem, not the UAM. He just added fuel to my fire. He’s the exacerber, not the problem.
Thanks Amanda, I had some time to think about our conversation, it feels like he hasn’t changed. He’s still the smooth talker w/o any real kindness towards people. I just hope I can get over this soon. For reasons dating back to my parents and the ways that I was brought up has made me feel it’s ok for him to be disrespectful towards me, but speaking to my friends, they say that he’s a jerk and I am more encouraged to acknowledge that. Even if my judgement is clouded… if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck… you know how it goes. Amanda, the problem with guys like this, I’ve realized is that they’re selfish but they don’t realize that they are. They want to change but they don’t know what to change. They’re smooth talkers and we’re the opposite, thus we tend to attract. Idk if that makes any sense. Please let go of this person, not worth it. It gets easier after a year…but even then, it’s best to stay away all together. I feel better, a little shocked that I fell for it…I guess he was trying to make me forgive him but in a very sneaky way….no, he doesn’t get out of jail free. EVER.
Thank you, Hope. You hit the nail right on the head when you mention how these selfish guys don’t realize that they are selfish. They may think that they are doing the hard work to repair their lives and their relationships, but its not enough! The guy whom I have been stuck on is in many ways an upstanding fellow and has a big heart… EXCEPT when it comes to treating women well in relationships. And, its asking too much to expect two people who started out in a damaging relationship to both build the tools and perspective in a year or less to enter a truly healthy relationship.
Anyway, I’ve had an e-mail filter in place for 2 days, and, while largely symbolic, it does make me feel like I am more in control. It also sheds light on how I am the author of my own obsessive feelings. He doesn’t make me think about him all the time. I do it to myself. I am the one who makes myself miserable. I am hoping, with the help of a therapist, to free myself from these unhealthy thought patterns. Your perspective on your fellow seems right-on and smart. I hope that once the big feelings that came up from renewed contact abate, you can see that this episode was an opportunity for you to exercise your new skills and better judgment. You saw right away through his smooth talk. You might not have been able to do that a year ago! As painful as it was to put yourself through that test, you emerge victorious, knowing that the hard work you have done has paid off.
Thanks Amanda! It’s baby steps, everything takes time. 🙂 So take your time, even if it’s just setting up a filter, gotta start somewhere. I think reading BR definitely helps me keep my destructive emotions at bay. I started off by not listening to music that reminded me of him, I swore off music for the first 3 weeks of my quest to forget him, people thought I was crazy…but after that I was listening to music because I wanted to , not to remind myself of him. I guess what I mean is, to each her own. 🙂 I think I’m fortunate to have a lot of friends who are in good relationships to remind me what they’re supposed to be or what they should resemble, it’s taught me a bit as to what my EUM was doing…which was hurting me. I also like to remember that if it didn’t work out >2 times…it’s not going to work but there are 2 billion people in the world and we need to learn to give others a shot. So hang in there and I think all we need is conviction towards bringing the focus back to us…as Nat points out. 🙂