This past Easter, I wrote about whether we really need to forgive and the importance of ultimately forgiving yourself instead of busting a gut trying to speed up your grieving and healing so that you can forgive someone else. What I find fascinating about life but in particular reading or hearing about situations where people have encountered someone who at best took advantage and at their worst, abused them, is how ‘sorry’ is supposed to be a word that expresses regret and an apology, but can also be a way of pressing the Reset Button.
Much like giving, ‘sorry’ isn’t something that you say with expectations of what the other person should think, feel, or do as a result. I don’t say sorry unless I mean it. I also, however, don’t take it as my right to assume that it should be “Shazam! Everything is forgotten!” For minor things, it can be relatively easy to snap back to ‘normal’. Otherwise, it takes more than the few seconds it takes to utter an apology to overcome these situations.
Being genuinely sorry is actually remembering what the hell you did and having enough genuine regret to sincerely endeavour not to repeat the very thing you know has caused distress or even great hurt.
Some people pay lip service to apologies and just trot them out. This is in much the same way that they might be loose with declarations of feelings that they can’t back up with actions. Much like love, sorry is an action feeling. It’s not just something you say; it has to be reflected in your actions. I know you’re sorry when we return to a mutually respectful and fulfilling relationship. I have to seriously question, though, how feckin sorry you are if you apologise and in two shakes of a lamb’s tail, you’re busting up my boundaries again.
When someone’s on your back like Zorro to apologise to you or for you to accept the apology, they don’t actually mean they’re sorry.
What they really mean is:
“Look, can you hurry the eff up and accept my apology so I can stop feeling bad about it? You perceiving me as wronging/hurting/abusing/whatever you is terribly inconvenient and my ego doesn’t like the pinch of reality. So if you don’t mind, get a shuffle on, accept my apology, and let’s move on so I can slam my palm down on the Reset Button.”
You see, much like the issue of being friends after a breakup, when certain types of people badger you to be ‘friends’ and badger you to accept their apology, it’s because they’re not confident enough in their integrity to believe they can ‘get’ your friendship or your forgiveness without manipulating you to some degree.
If you treat someone well in a relationship, odds are that even when you break up, once hearts are mended and you’re both in neutral territory, there’s a possibility for friendship. You don’t assume that it’s your God-given right. And you certainly shouldn’t feel entitled to push for a pseudo friendship so you can have a foot in the door for an ego stroke, shag, or a shoulder to lean on.
And it’s the same with the person that tries to badger, railroad, and guilt you into accepting their so-called apology. It’s like “Here’s my apology packaged up in a load of guilt and shame I’m putting on you”. And the worst thing is that if you have low self-esteem and tend to look for validation, this is the type of thing that does a number on you. You get distracted from the actual issue and the focus becomes on making them feel better about the fact that you’re not ‘over’ whatever the problem was.
“Oh, I’m sorry that I’m still hurt and that I’m hurting your feelings! There, there now. Let me make it all better for you and invalidate my feelings so I can validate your gigantasaurus ego. Would you like some sex with some milk and sugar while you’re at it?”
What the what now?
If you’re pissed off, furious, hurt or whatever you’re feeling, those are your feelings and you have a right to them.
Yeah, they’re not convenient for the other person. Much like when celebrities take out super injunctions to hide their cheating though, if your apology hunter is that concerned about feeling the inconvenience, it might help if they didn’t hurt you in the first place.
It’s not about bearing grudges. Some things can’t be brushed off with an apology. Stone cold facts! Many Cheaters, for example, love saying they’re ‘sorry’ but they actually regret being caught. Or they regret that their image has been crushed or are eager for the deception to be forgotten about.
And this is why I stress the importance of living and dating with your self-esteem and having healthy boundaries where you recognise your discomfort and validate your feelings and judgement.
When you know the line, they know the line. As a result, you won’t allow someone to not only press the Reset Button but to have free reign to pull the same thing all over again.
Sometimes it takes a while to process an experience and to work out what happened and where you go from ‘here’. That’s why you can’t just cast aside your feelings for the convenience of someone else’s ego.
Often the very people who do pseudo apologies don’t genuinely empathise with you and recognise not only how you may be feeling in your position but what they did to impact you.
If they don’t understand (or don’t want to) how they came to cause you pain, there’s nothing to stop them from repeating the same actions. It makes it a hollow apology. If they genuinely understood what had happened, they’d know why you’re still struggling.
You also have to be careful. Someone can apologise whenever the hell they like, but they can’t erase your memory and your feelings. However, they may still assume if you’re forced into ‘accepting’ their apology that the slate is wiped clean and it’s like it didn’t happen. It did happen though.
Sorry takes many forms. For many of you struggling in barely-there relationships, you’ll know they’re truly sorry and they ‘get it’ when they finally leave you alone. We want to believe that people have changed or at the very least feel deep regret when they say they’re sorry. Maybe, though, one of the biggest things to learn is that, much like they can’t expect you to soothe their ego, you can’t assume that sorry is a precursor to a changed person.
Sorry doesn’t mean “I’ve changed”. At it’s best it means “I regret what I did”, and that’s fine. However, if what they’re apologising for amounts to shady, boundary-busting, code amber and red behaviour, it’s best to leave them in your past. This way, ou don’t have more hurt to pile on further down the line.
Your thoughts?
Are you ready to stop silencing and hiding yourself in an attempt to ‘please’ or protect yourself from others? My book, The Joy of Saying No: A Simple Plan to Stop People Pleasing, Reclaim Boundaries, and Say Yes to the Life You Want (Harper Horizon), is out now.
Check out my ebooks the No Contact Rule and Mr Unavailable & The Fallback Girl, and more, in my bookshop.
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Sometime someone may really MEAN sorry – but it doesn’t help. If someone is sorry they can’t express their love for you with physical gestures of affection, and you NEED to be hugged, touched, kissed, it still may be a deal-breaker for the relationship. Doesn’t mean you’re holding a grudge – you have the right to have your needs fulfilled.
And yes, too often “sorry” means “let’s hit the re-set button,” which too often is code for “You are now supposed to forgive all the crap I did that hurt you, but *I* still get to hold anything you’ve ever done that I consider wrong, against you.”
The Writing Goddess…I so agree with you. My ex used to apologize for things he did to me, but I never saw or experienced that nurturing side to him. His new gf, who is an old ex friend of mine seems to be getting all of it according to her tweets and blog. But I’m ok with the fact that he wasn’t the one for me and I used to hate myself thinking there was something wrong with me, for him not wanting to even hold my hand in public sometimes. I just wished I knew this then and it would have saved me a ton of heartcake and a visit to the psych ward!
OMG Nat you couldn’t be more right. My ex said he was sorry for what he had done (cheating) and hoped that someday I could forgive him and we could be friends. When I replay that moment in my mind I now want to puke. Be friends with the man who cheated on me, lied to me, broke my heart and never gave me a 2nd thought HELL TO THE NO. Granted it took me awhile to get to this place but thank God I here.
The Writing Goddess is correct ““sorry” means “let’s hit the re-set button,” which too often is code for “You are now supposed to forgive all the crap I did that hurt you”
MaryC, i am so where you are. my husband told me sorry the other day, but for the life of me i am not sure what he was apologizing for (it’s in a post on my blog)… i don’t think he is sorry he hurt me, i don’t think he is even sorry he got caught. i think he said he was sorry (and it took him MONTHS to say it) because he thinks he is supposed to say it, but doesn’t mean it.
i also think he is afraid of me in this whole divorce process. i am WAAAYYYYYY smarter and have a much better handle on things than he does, and i think he is just trying to stay on my good side.
having clarity does not make me feel any better — my heart is still broken and i still feel like a worthless piece of sh*t.
“i’m sorry” can be the emptiest of words depending on who says them.
Especially when that “sorry” is a “I am sorry but….” read – further explanation why my hideous actions are your fault. Always remember BUT negates everything the preceeds it. “Sorry” is for accidentally bumping into someone in line certainly NOT an apology meant to heal and not hurt.
Oh man, I am alllll too familiar with the “I am sorry … BUT … ”
It’s like we can never be right. No matter how ridiculous the circumstance, they ‘apologize’ (because they know they did wrong and want a quick fix), manage to find a way that makes us look bad (even though they are the assclown), and we believe they are right!
I am done getting swallowed up by denial and not seeing the reality.
It’s crazy. If I overstep his boundaries he definately makes it known and ‘teaches me a lesson’ through his silence or rudeness. If he oversteps my boundaries, I become a nag.
I sucked it and saw what “sorry” meant to a few. Which was they were the saaaaaaaaaame person they always were. All it meant was “get back under my thumb so I can feel good again”. Been there, got my hand burnt and learned.
“you’ll know they’re truly sorry and they ‘get it’ when they finally leave you alone”
I often think this Nat, and I’m glad you brought it up. It’s a good thought, even if I’ll never know anything about them and whether they’ve changed or not… I often feel that the fact that they’ve given up is a sign of respect. An admission so to speak. This thought has brought me a lot of solace and pride for some reason. For being the one to say “I’m out”, that in and of itself was the first rung in the ladder back to my self esteem. For them to finally leave me alone was validation that I deserve respect.
very well said.
CC, I agree with what you say about seeing it as a sign of respect when they give up on contacting you. Even though I would be the one to contact him more often than the other way around, if I didn’t contact him for a bit he’d pop in by sending me a text or message. When I finally told him I’m cutting contact, he replied with a half-hearted apology that I never replied to. The fact he never tried to contact me after that made me feel like I did deserve respect and maybe he finally realized that too.
In the case of my ex-AC (future faker/religion insulter/general douchebag – true story), he told me he expected an apology FROM ME and then threw me the friend card. I should add that when he got in touch after 5 months NC for the last go-around, he was full of apologies for his previous behavior. Just goes to show you how sincere that apology was. These guys are unreal!
This is great!
In my case, “sorry” meant- “I feel embarrassed and bad about making a ton of promises I couldn’t keep, dragging you through my unresolved drama with the ex-wife, and holding you at arms length while declaring my undying love and commitment and keeping you on ice. I need to think of myself as someone who has integrity and is decent, mature, respectful and functional. I know you said you didn’t want me to call, but I’m going to anyways because it’s unpleasant feeling guilty and I’d like to get back to imagining myself as someone better than the evidence of your hurt feelings suggests I am. I’m so sorry. Could you hurry up and tell me you feel ok now?”
oh Nat …you know when some of us girls say….it felt like that post was for me…well sorry to follow the crowd….but todays post felt like you got me..And I bet 200 + …on this post!!..until I found BR….okay I felt lost and a little crazy …now I feel sane ..heard…and stronger…I was always strong….before the AC…made me doubt myself …how do they do that ??? ..they are are so full of shit….but u end up doubting yourself ??..its only thanks to BR I don’t doubt myself anymore…I am the same ..I’m ok.. I was just duped for a while post divorce ….”9sorry .”.without actions means jack shit …
I’m envious. What happens when you don’t ever get a “sorry”? Is that better or worse? Doesn’t that also say that the person didn’t understand (or want to understand) how they might have caused you pain? An odd question: Do EUM have the emotional capacity to be genuinely sorry?
I wouldn’t feel upset about not getting a sorry. Honestly, if an unavailable person doesn’t contact you it means he is finally showing you some respect and thinking of you as someone who won’t put up with BS. Just make sure you also think of yourself that way and this won’t bother you.
Does he have the emotional capacity to be genuinely sorry? As long as he is bothering you with apologies, probably not. Once he leaves you alone, who knows and who cares? You have the chance to move on with your life, so take it.
nothing to be envious about– because it doesn’t mean what sorry from a normal, decent person who really cares about you would mean.
1) he’d do all the things he’s apologizing for again if given the opportunity
2) more than anything else he’s sorry that he feels bad
3) the apology is a strategy to getting access, support, etc. when everything else has failed (flowers, “I love you’s”, “I’m sorting things out and it’ll just be a few weeks”, the works).
He said he was sorry for calling when I had asked him not to… BUT HE STILL DID IT. He didn’t hang up after saying sorry- he went on to whinge and complain about how difficult life is for him.
I’m sorry I didn’t get off the phone sooner.
I told my EU once – only a few months after meeting him – that his constant coming and going made me feel like an unpaid prostitute. He said with a whole lot of feeling (!) ‘Well, that’s just terrible that you feel like that!’
I know better now of course, but then I just recall feeling puzzled – like something just didn’t compute – like maybe I hadn’t explained it properly (!)… I sensed the ambiguity of his response, which on the one hand seemed empathetic but on the other seemed not to acknowledge what it was I felt terrible about – HIS hurtful behaviour.
I assumed though, at the time, that since he got that it was “terrible!” he’d then stop doing it. He didn’t.
The trouble with these people is all their ambiguity – all the mixed messages – even when they are apologising! When you know what to look for though, it’s unmistakeable.
Thought-provoking, Fearless. One thing Natalie talks about a lot is learning that we are not responsible for another person’s behaviour and feelings. Sometimes I think these guys have taken that to heart, but have interpreted it mean that they are not accountable for what they do.
They hear: “When you do x, I feel y.” They think: “Gee, it’s too bad she has all these y feelings that get set off when I do y. That must be hard for her.” They don’t think, “I should stop doing y.”
For what it’s worth, neither would we: if someone said something to us, like – “When you wear your hair like that, I feel annoyed.” We’d think, too bad you’re annoyed, buddy, I’m going to keep wearing my hair like this.
We wouldn’t be sorry. Neither are they, really. They just think: this is how I roll.
I’m not saying how they roll isn’t hurtful, or is on a par with dressing as one pleases, but everything is contextual. Dressing like you’re ready for bed at a wedding would be disrespectful. Their treating us like a customer or an employee or mere acquaintance, in the context of an intimate partnership, is also disrespectful.
Some people are still at the emotional stage of “I’m going to wear whatever the eff I want to your wedding.” The only way to show them the degree of their crappiness, with EU/AC, is to show them the door.
Good points well said, Magnolia – also thought provoking.
I don’t think it’s always willful bad behavior. I think my ex doesn’t know any other way of being, isn’t especially motivated to learn new ways, and truly believes his M.O. is the only option. to use your metaphor, if you only have access to one pair of ratty pants, apologizing for wearing them to a wedding you attend doesn’t make a lot of sense. Of course we all know they could figure out how to get a more appropriate pair of pants, or forgo the wedding, but that’s just not the way they think. So, their apologies end up being more like “I’m sorry I don’t have any other pants” or “I’m sorry that you’re hurt that I wore the only pants I have” rather than a genuine apology followed up by a much needed shopping trip : )
Also, after reading a book on self compassion I’ve been thinking that lots of us here probably owe ourselves a heartfelt apology. We can’t make our ex’s apologies meaningful, but we can definitely acknowledge that we got (and stayed) involved in something that wasn’t good for us long-term, and then we can work on learning new habits and skills and acting differently moving forward.
Brilliant comment! My ex EUM even once said to me verbatim (one of his many classic EUM lines), when I asked him to please take into account my need to make weekend plans more in advance “that’s not how I roll”. So selfish!
Izzy – totally brilliant point.
My father – the original EUM in my life – was basically like that. Dirt poor as a child, he stayed for the rest of his life in a poverty mentality. In fact, one of his favorite sayings, when my mom would try to talk to him about saving for retirement, was, How can you expect me to invest when I don’t have any money?
That made a fair bit of sense to me, and the same logic got applied to relationships. Unloved as a child, he was later like: “How do you expect me to be generous/kind/loving when I never got/get any of that?”
Cue: me, for almost the rest of my life, trying to convince him that he IS loved and he has love all around. He has my mom, he has me, so he’s richer than he thinks. So, pony up with the affection there, Dad.
He always felt I was demanding. Indeed, why should he apologize for not giving more, when he’s already giving all that he’s got, which he constantly reminds us is very little?
Have you ever known one of those people at work, who wants reduced hours and special consideration and less expected of them, and to be put on disability, for – like – a hangnail? While meanwhile some of their coworkers are honouring their commitment to do their work when they have – like – cancer? Or a sick child?
Sometimes I think EUMs (and I count myself in here) display an element of that. Sign me up for the compensation and benefits of the relationship, but I’m gonna need a little break on delivering the work, okay?
Sorry? Why should I say sorry? I’m HEELLLPPPLESSSSS! I TOOOLLLLDDD you!!!
Well said Fearless and Magnolia! I think what happens too is they think, “Well, she’s an adult and it’s not like I’m holding a gun to her head to engage with me. If she really feels THAT bad, why is she still here?” Again, it all boils down to “it’s not my fault”, which is priceless in a situation where it’s THEM that’s always popping up after periods of NC. Guys with selective memory also tend to “forget” what they said when they blew hot/future faked/fast forwarded, so it’s like “I didn’t promise her anything!” Aaaaaaaand this is why they can apologize until Victoria Beckham eats a large pizza (aka, kingdom come, which isn’t happening anytime soon) and it still doesn’t mean anything.
Izzybell:
“So, their apologies end up being more like “I’m sorry I don’t have any other pants” or “I’m sorry that you’re hurt that I wore the only pants I have”
That’s just hilarious 🙂 And I think is probably exactly what it’s like!
And yes Natasha – if I went ape-shit with mine he would often say things like ‘well, if that’s what you think of me why are you still talking to me?’ Fair question!
blueberry
You’ve started an interest sub-thread here. Dealing with EU people is infuriating. It’s a seething mass of contradiction: Their sorry doesn’t really mean sorry. They know they are behaving badly,but also have very limited self awareness. They know they’ve fibbed, yet they’re shocked when you bring it up. They’re sorry they’ve cheated – but they do it again. They dump us, then they come back. They’re such good fathers yet they act like tossers to their girlfriend. They work hard to win you over, but can’t even show up for a date. They’re so kind/charming/funny yet think nothing of sticking it to you. They love you, but disappear. They’re intelligent but have no emotional intelligence. They get married, then want to introduce outside parties.
This is just what they do. I’m never going near one of them again!
I think you all have hit on a perfect sub-thread to the so sorry I didn’t mean to hurt you theme. He always said, “you know I’m married” whenever I demanded an apology for his being married. Implicit in his comment: I’m not holding a gun to your head. So why are you still here? Duh…he was right. Explicit: “I’m surprised you want to spend any time with me. So why are you still here”? Silly me, I was throwing a tantrum because he couldn’t make plans for the weekend because he has a wife. He was telling me all a long I should bolt because he’d never be able to make plans for the weekend because he has a wife. He was telling me all a long I should bolt because he’d never be able to make plans for the future because he has a wife. Then, I demanded an apology? Am I the one showing up at the wedding with tattered pants? I really do hate shopping. Nothing fits and I can’t afford anything that does. Really.
Fearless! omg – I said the same thing to my ex AC! And he too apologized that I felt that way and then he said, “I thought about offering you money actually, but figured you would be insulted somehow …”
What a complete MORON!
To be genuinely sorry means you genuinely respected means you genuinely cared…so no, I don’t think EUMs are genuinely sorry…
My EUM would mouth the words he was sorry for whatever he did to me all the time. But underlying all those apologies was the unspoken “I’m the misunderstood sensitive man who thought you, my woman, would understand my pain”. I would always end up being the one saying I’m sorry for being angry at him or upset over his broken promises. His sorry was really I didn’t do anything and you should be sorry for hurting me. I don’t think he ever gave a real apology for anything he has done. And I stupidly went along with it believing a good loving woman should have know that and blaming myself for being so insensitive. Reset? With him he really didn’t need a reset because it was almost like it never even happened. Wow! Nat, I played the fool really well.
Day 5 and climbing the walls. But no NC!
I’m the misunderstood sensitive man who thought you, my woman, would understand my pain…
wow – I heard variations of this for *years*. The favourite one trotted out most often was “i’m just complicated” – which I stupidly took to mean – *I* need to try harder to get him and his attention and love (this was while we were actually in a relationship). He actually took pride in being ‘complicated’ like it meant he was more special than everyone else and deserved to be treated differently/given more lee-way
What I know know this means is – I’m selfish and I only think of myself, but I dont like to think I dont have any integrity, i’m a good man, but its the situation/everyone else/you….
Yes I love that “I’m sensitive, complicated ” story used to justify dipstick behaviours and disappearances..put that along side excuses like “my wife/ girlfriend doesn’t sex me like you do” or “doesn’t give me enough sex” or “I am on internet dating sites because I’m lonely” and the perfect line on an internet dating site from my ex was:
“Firstly I am single and living alone. I believe in honesty and integrity, doing the right thing by myself and others! Just want to find someone with my take on life!” from a man engaged, living for the past two and a half years with his fiancee, who has lied and cheated on her, other grlfriends and his ex wife.
“I’m sorry, its complicated, I’m complicated”….yes it sure is when you are a two faced liar with your bullshit out in the open.
it’s so patronising isn’t it… “you wouldn’t understand little ole me coz i’m so special” urgh. Trouble is, I bought into it for so long, rod for my own back really. I was doing the “there there…” routine for ages. Hell, he thought he was the only one to go through a bad divorce… godforbid I had any needs.
I do laugh to myself sometimes wondering how he will cope if he meets a ‘normal’ woman who wont put up with his sh1te. No doubt he’ll just think she’s awful and he’s still perfect.
Yep – the old ‘i’m complicated’, or, as my ex EUM used to say ‘I have issues’. I would always think ‘who doesn’t have bloody issues!?’. Everyone has their baggage, their quirks, their fears and insecurities, doesn’t give people an excuse to act like dipsticks! There is no excuse and there is no apology to cancel out constant boundary crossing. Then again we do owe ourselves an apology for putting up with constant boundary crossing.
I like the lazy employee analogy further up. That is exactly what EU people are like!
I don’t think ‘normal women’ would even get involved in the first place. They would spot a ‘lazy employee’ when they’re at the ‘interview stage’ and just not even engage. Normal women vote with their feet. They don’t stand around and analyse shitty behaviour, they just recognise it for what it is and hit the eject button.
Minky:
“Normal women vote with their feet. They don’t stand around and analyse shitty behaviour, they just recognise it for what it is and hit the eject button.”
Here here!! One time (in band camp!), long story short: I put blood, sweat and tears into a job to get my boss out of a ‘real spot’ – I worked my ass off day and night… I lost about a stone in weight with stress and pressure…I pulled his department into shape… yet in the end up he employed someone else for the permanent position… I felt not only used but *abused*. I analysed to the nth degree; I blamed myself; I wondered what I had done wrong… blah blah…
My EUM’s reaction was basically this: There’s nothing to anlayse here. Stop trying to figure it out. He simply used you for his own gain with no intention of making it permanent for you. You have been shat upon from a great height. From now on give them nothing but minimum necessary input! Get another job asap and vote with your feet (his exact words)
Funny he saw it that way – Mr shitty behaviour! But just goes to show what they expect YOU to do when it comes to how they behave. They are not looking for your sorrys – they are not sorry either even when thye say they are – best they are is a little uncomfortable that you have noticed they are/were using you, but they fix that discomfort by moving out of your way, which they find very easy to do! They are shitting on you from a great height and are simply surprised you are still mug enough not to have moved out of the way yourself.
(‘you’ here means me and anyone like me!)
What came up for me here is the oodles of times when one of my parents did something that caused me a great deal of hurt or anger. If I talked about or mentioned how it made me feel, if they did apologize, it had more added on to it. After Mom has done something (and this still goes on to this day) that has angered me she is quick to say something like “you forgive me?” and keep rattling on about how sorry she is until I say ok. Then I’m not given any time to process my anger because I am too busy saving her from the discomfort of overstepping my boundary!
Same goes with my dad. All the crap he did when I was a child and the bullcrap he does today, he has said I’m sorry a 100 times and says I need to forgive him then goes right back out and does it again. Even writing it here sparks my anger. Anger that I was never given permission to feel my own feelings and others’ feelings were much more important. I’ve dealt with this in relationships too where they say I’m sorry and do it again and again. I’ve been doing work on dealing with my anger and finding better ways to handle it. I have quite a bit of anger piled up from years of disowning it or shoving it down.
colororange,
you must be doing particularly well these days … I think of your earlier posts, which have naturally expressed a lot of hurt. Now this one of yours makes me think of Natalie’s one about not being afraid to feel your anger, and how it’s a positive step – you sound like a woman who is ‘not that woman anymore’!
My mother once said, “I know I yelled at you a lot when you were young, but I was under stress.” Translation: “I yelled at you because you were a pain in the ass who gave me a lot of stress. I am entitled to treat other people badly because my life has been stressful. You deserved it! I want to feel like I was a kind and caring mother — quit trying to make me feel like I wasn’t!”
It took me years to realize that no, I did not deserve her verbal abuse, no, she was not a kind and loving parent, and no, being under stress does not entitle someone to treat others badly. In addition, I think that the “stress” she experienced was the result of her own poor choices — and her refusal to learn from her poor choices.
Amen Tanya – I have experienced a similar scenario in childhood.
Do we have the same mother? 😐
Well stated.
I was with an EUM for the last two years and he would put his head down like a puppy and say Sorry in the saddest way. It was very effective because I started to feel sorry for him and forgetting what I was angry about!
Effing ridiculous!
I’m so glad I found Baggage Reclaim. : )
well, I read through this and saw myself in this article. Whenever he would make a mistake, he would tell me my reaction to it was unwarranted and that I was overreacting. maybe I did overreact on occassion but he never would apologize for any of it unless I pushed hard for it. If that didn’t work, guess what my dumb arse did? I ended up apologizing to him for whatever went wrong and then sat around and panicked waiting for him to accept. Lord…I look back on that time with such embarrassment. At what point did I decide this guy was worth my time and effort and at what point did I decide I wasn’t worth more? I’ve since picked myself up and my boundaries are clearer than ever. This is a very good article and I hope everybody takes it to heart.
Did we date the same guy?!
I also got the “Why are you over-reacting?” when he had done the most outrageous things, verbally abused me, told me I was ‘mental’, then said that he was hurt and I should apologise, and yes – I frequently did because I did not want to rock the boat.
I found that he often behaved badly when things seemed to be going well, almost like he sabotaged them deliberately, but the sorry that he said always seemed to be sorry that he had let himself down and not out of any empathy with the way he had made me feel.
Great point Movedup – that old “I’m sorry, but you know that you…(insert whatever they have a problem with about you that is totally unrelated and they should have brought up at the appropriate time here)” is WAY to common. It’s a great way for them to shift the spotlight off of themselves, and as Nat said, women with low self-esteem will swallow it hook, line, and sinker every time.
With the ex AC, sorry was thrown around a lot. It always meant, ‘sorry you found out I cheated’ or ‘sorry you felt what I said was offensive’. When I remained hurt, because the lying and bad behavior continued in lots of other ways, I was told, ‘you didn’t give me a chance to be sorry.’ No regret, change or remorse ever came with the apology, only a desire for me to shut up about the incident. It got morphed into me not being able to let go of things. Then it was me apologizing for screwing up so much. (mind f*fuck at it’s finest) It’s hard to let go of things on the bottom of the pile while he was actively piling more shit on top of it. So clear now. Why did it take so long to see my way out? It’s like a fog comes over and distorts it all when you are in the midst of it. Listen to you gut! If we ever bumped into each other and he said he was sorry now, I would accept the apology with grace and move along. The finger pointing has long stopped and no point in going back to it. I actually do forgive him now on my own, doesn’t mean I want to be his friend. That was part of the letting go that felt good. Not caring if he was sorry anymore and letting it go anyway.
Heh heh. On his very first apology, I’ll never forget how fast his narcissism reared its ugly head. He instantly started squirming to take back the control. It goes like this. Heartfelt voice: I’m soooo sorry — three second pause — impatient argumentative voice: Do you accept my apology?! Literally in seconds flat. That first time my answer was not yet, I could not accept apologies in lieu of talking it over. He hadn’t ‘broken me in’ yet. To be fair, we did talk it over (in a tense and uncomfortable and uncomforting way) in the end I asked if this was going to happen again, to which he replied, probably.
In hindsight, I see he would not be capable of empathy even if he tried. He will not and he cannot. It is truly a handicap. There is no talking to him, it’s a waste of time. He used to say we had an amazing connection, intimacy, exceptionally good communication. If this is what exceptionally good looks like, I hate to think what passes for typical communication with women. I guess he just pulls relationship lingo out of his ass as a smokescreen because he is as clueless as they come when it comes to intimacy, communication, and the like. As with saying sorry when it seems like the thing to say.
This is an excellent post! I’d also like to add that people should also be aware of the fake apology – “I’m sorry you feel hurt.” That’s the one the xAC pulled on me after I told him I wanted to cut contact. Back in the day of low self-esteem, I immediately felt the need to reply to him to relieve him of the guilt I had placed on him, as if his feelings were far more important than my own.
Shows how messed up I was! This wasn’t an apology at all! With this he wasn’t apologizing for what he had done. Rather, he was apologizing for me feeling the way I did, as if it was MY FAULT. He said this to seem innocent, to make me think the intention wasn’t there or that – worse – he didn’t see anything wrong with what he did for me to react the way I did.
I am grateful to my sane close girlfriends who made sure I didn’t reply, and I never did. That was day one of NC, and 7 months later I’m glad he never got the satisfaction of hearing back from me.
Wow, just a few days ago when I broke NC I told my ex that I’m not guna pretend I’m fine (he texted me to “catch up” and act all normal as if nothing happened and suddenly we are friends, pshhht) I told him I still have some anger every time I remember how he treated me so we better not be friends, he replied “about what” (pretending to be dumb tere are we) then after writing a whole paragraph about why I’m angry what he did wrong when he decided to disappear so I’d breakup with him..etc, he replied with “I am sorry”, trust me I heard that line before over and over again, as if he means to say whenever you bring anything I’ve done wrong I’m not going to try and make it up I don’t regret it and the only thing you’re going to get from me is one word, that is how he taught me to treat him, disgusting. I remember all the time he gave me one of those “sorry”s and I thought aww he regrets it and he has learned, WRONG!!!
We broke up 3 months ago, only a few weeks back did I start this website & when I broke NC I saw all I needed to see and got all my answers, he didn’t change, he’ll never change, leave it alone and move on..
Rawan, I got the “What did I do?” too! It’s like, “Errrr, you know what you did.” In my case, instead of an “I’m sorry”, I got the old favorite, “I didn’t mean to hurt you.” Say what now? Yours definitely gave the Reset Button a good smack with the random switch to friends. Like you would want a “friend” like that. These guys love to deflect and dodge any kind of accountability, so good for you for leaving him in the dust!
My ex did this all the time. Whenever he was caught cheating again, “sorry” was not only supposed to erase all of my hurt and rage, but also erase my memory–to the point where if I brought up previous cheating the next time, *he would be angry at me for remembering it.* As if I had betrayed him by not developing amnesia. It was something to see.
He still is, actually, completely flabbergasted that I don’t trust him. Every so often I remind him that I have good reasons not to, and he curtly says that he doesn’t want to revisit issues from our marriage. Tough luck, buddy.
I’ve got a guy trying to do this very same thing right now. We’d been dating for all of two months–I caught him lying three times, and that was it, told him I didn’t want to see him again–he keeps making outrageous apologies for the last lie (no comment on the first two, guess they didn’t count because I didn’t dump him over them) and then trying to go on with a regular conversation, as if because he’s apologized so well, he’s apologized me right back into a dating relationship and I’ve undumped him. Thank goodness I found this out about him now and acted on it. He is clearly not a guy who respects boundaries if he’s even trying to ignore the fact that *I dumped him.*
Do you have a GPS tracking system on us? I can’t believe it sometimes. It is like you are here. I spent sometime thinking about your last article regarding making mistakes and (giant) errors in judgment in my case. I may still need to publicly profess to admitting I got it wrong so that I can internalize it. I’m really trying to move from self-blame to accountability, accept and forgive myself, and not make the same mistakes.
You won’t believe this or maybe you will as it is predictable as hell. The ex MM popped up again and he was sooooo sorry blah, blah, blah. Is 6 months a magic NC number? I hadn’t read this article yet but his crap was just like you stated: ” “Look, can you hurry the eff up and accept my apology so I can stop feeling bad about it?” Sorry for this sorry dude was an attempt to hit the reset button, plain and simple and I hadn’t read this article yet! But I saw it! I couldn’t believe when I got home and checked BR. It was as clear as a bell that the only thing he was “sorry” for was himself. His sorry was so clearly not about me. As usual it was about him.
Even before I read this article, although I’ve read everysingle article and everysingle post from all you wonderful folks, I knew my line. “When you know the line, they know the line, so you won’t allow someone to not only press the Reset Button but to have free reign to pull the same thing all over again.” It is so wonderful to have a line now. Using another Natalie tip (again), I asked about his wife, using her name, and their marriage. Same old shit, different day. Kid about to leave home but “no promises”, too busy to think about things”. In the bubble above my head was a toilet handle FLUSH. He was so NOT sorry. The only thing he is sorry about is that he is stuck in a loveless marriage and I’m no longer there to meet his needs. I got to say that I’m not that woman anymore. I’m not the OW, understudy, waiting to be cast. I am playing the leading role in my life. We also discussed his little saying that he was surprised I wanted to spend time with him. I told him now I surprised too! Sorry my frigging arse. Sent him packing…FLUSH.
YAY! Runnergirl!!! Good for you. Doesn’t that make you feel so good? That you recognized what was going on immediately, and then had further validation from Nat that you were on the right track. I recently had an experience like that (won’t go into it as it is off-topic) but does it ever feel like progress. It’s amazing because you feel like you are slogging it out, not making much progress, and then out of the blue something happens and this time you see it and react to it in a whole new way. It’s only then that you realize how many lessons you’ve internalized and how much you have changed. Good for you!
Runner,
Should I be tsk tsk ing here? “Popped up”? How did? I frowned to think that he got to have a conversation with you and was allowed, in your presence, to even stray into the territory of making your involvement – which is over – right? – a topic of conversation. Hmm.
But the most important thing is you, and your progress, and it sounds like this encounter merely served to emphasize how removed and unplugged you’ve become from this guy’s bs. So glad to hear it!
Em, Crystalclear, Fittness, and anybody else,
I’ve been following your posts regarding the early days of NC. Do whatever you can do to stay NC. NC has been a life saver for me. I still struggle a bit every day but at my 6 month mark, I’m getting over him. His apology meant nothing to me today. Absolutely nothing. It was amazing. A few months ago, I would have allowed him to hit the reset button. Not anymore. I still long a bit for the guy I imagined but when I looked at his sad, sorry apologizing, arse, he was just a sad, sorry, apologizing arse.
Grace, I don’t know if you are reading this but you always asked what would happen if he left his wife. At that point, I didn’t know. Today I think I know. I wouldn’t want to be with him.
Is 6 months a magic number? Just when I think I’m out of the woods, he turns up with an apology for being a hurtful jerk?
Runner:
“Not anymore. I still long a bit for the guy I imagined but when I looked at his sad, sorry apologizing, arse, he was just a sad, sorry, apologizing arse.”
LOL… LOL…!! 🙂
That one ‘ll keep me laughing all day!!
I could just say “ditto” to all of the above but here’s my sad sorry apologizing arse:
I was on a pretty short ‘suck and see’ two or so months ago after doing pretty well for about 8 months with NC and reading Natalie’s blog. During this short spell of re-ignited contact I answered one of his texts telling him that I had noted that he had much to say about all how he was doing and all what he was doing but that not one time, not once, had he asked me anything remotely approaching the phrase ‘how are you?’
His reply by text: “sorry”
Still waiting for him to ask me how I am!! Still would be waiting for him to give a shit how I am…’cept that I’m not.
As runner said, it was all my time in NC that saved me from not accepting his meaningless “sorry”. I saw the reality which sounded more like, ‘I can’t be bothered worrying about how you feel’ – ‘There’s your sorry, now let’s move along’
I had my ‘sorry’. What else could I possibly want?
Errr.. well… maybe for you to spontaneously combust into a guy who gives a shit.
‘cept, know what, don’t bother your sorry arse.
Glad to make you laugh Fearless. It was a truly amazing moment when I saw exactly who he was. Back in my first few days of NC, you told me to take him off the pedestal. Boy did he crash and burn off the pedestal yesterday. I didn’t have to take him off, he fell off of his own accord.
You know, they wouldn’t even have to listen to what we said if they asked “How are you”. They can’t even bring themselves to ask the question. How is it that “How are you” is so hard for them to say but they can sure spew out the “Sorry’ies”. I’m glad you aren’t waiting around for him to ask or listening to his half-hearted sorry crap.
These guys will never probably spontaneously combust into someone who gives a shit but they sure do spontaneously combust.
Stay strong and stay funny!
Runner! Sounds excellent!
As for a ‘How are you’ rest assured these guys are so deceptive even their questions are lies, and they can shove their ‘How are you, my guess is you were ticked off but you should be feeling better by about now?” My encounter the other day 4 months into his vanishing act, I did get a crappy pointless ‘How are you’. Right, like he really was prepared to listen to my account of how his carelessness felt for me. (He would not have asked in public, for starters) The truth is, it’s past the point of no return with these guys and there is *nothing* cogent or truthful they can say. Even their silence is manipulative, unless they can be consistent about it and stay gone.
runnergirl
i think you won’t want him anymore. when you get to the end of this journey and start a new one, you will want a different kind of relationship. he can’t give you that. even if magically morphed into a different person, everytime you looked at him you’d feel the urge to punch him for what he’s (chosen to) put you through. unless you were to develop amnesia. that might work …
i’ve been watching a silly uk series “made in chelsea”, mainly for the drama and the hair. It did have one great line in it. Before she turns her back on the guy, one of the women says “I’m going to forgive you … and I’m going to forget you.”
I think we should try that next time we get a “sorry”.
As usual Grace, you are so right. When I told him that I wanted a committed, exclusive relationship, in the bubble above my head I was thinking but not with you. He’s simply not capable. When I realized that, it was an funny moment among many. Since I’m trying to get done punching myself and him for this mess, I didn’t much want to punch him. I was feeling like I wanted run. Perfect line from the silly drama. I’working on forgiving him (and myself) as well as forgeting him but NOT what happened. I’m done with his sorries. For all of you out there that want a sorry, it is really meaningless just like him.
Yes Magnolia, a firm ‘tsk ‘tsk is in order. Giving him the time of day was another mistake. It started with his “sorry” and I got sucked in. However, he was just fishing to see if I’d returned to my senses and wanted to resume playing the role of OW. As I mentioned in a previous post, D-Day is nearing (last kid leaves home) and simply wanted to know if I was still an option, although he didn’t say that, it is what he meant. Honestly, I was curious as I’m the kind to keep sticking my hand in the fire to see if it is hot. I think I wanted to see if he had spontaneously combusted into the man I thought he was. He wasn’t and I wasn’t. The spell may be breaking.
It sounds like you are out of Kansas and doing well?
Not out of Kansas yet. Soon.
A follow-up on the ‘honest cheat’ business: I guess I got a taste of how it goes, because even though I turned down PH’s blatant advances and didn’t SAY anything to his flirtations, I did soak in his attention for a while. It must have seeped in a little.
There was a reading tonight that happened at the same place, with the same crowd, as all the ones I’ve been to before with him. I remember mentioning to him that it was coming up on Saturday. He said, yep, uh huh … and when I got there this evening and he wasn’t there, I felt strange. Like I had expected him to be there. A little duped, even. Like he might have mentioned that he wouldn’t be there when I brought it up.
I also went out on my own last night to a couple bars in town and realized how I might have put time into meeting other people, say other students. I guess I went along with convenient company. I even felt briefly like I was “cheating” by being out and talking with other men.
Of course it’s great that PH is off doing whatever and hopefully doing it with his partner. I was just really surprised at how I felt when I discovered he wasn’t there. It isn’t just, or even mainly, the sex or sexual conversation that makes these “affairs” inappropriate. I understand why now: they get to know you, you share your thoughts, or jokes, with them. You can’t hang out too much without getting attached.
I sat up in bed last night: Did this count as an emotional affair, then? Ew.
I guess my boundary is becoming clearer: a tighter time limit and topic limit on any social time with attached male work colleagues.
Anyway, I’m clicking my heels and am out of here on Wednesday. San Fran, here I come.
Yup Magnolia, that is precisely how the affair started with me. Hanging out after meetings with friends at first then moving to just us, always to discuss some really important work related issue! One time very early on “before” anything had started, he strangely didn’t show up and texted me to say he was sorry he couldn’t be there. I, too, was disappointed he wasn’t there although the other folks were and couldn’t figure out why I was disappointed because he wasn’t there. I was so thrilled he texted me. Now, I look back and see “it” had already started. And I look back and see that that was the first in a two year string of sorry I can’t be there’s. By the end, I wasn’t so thrilled to get those sad, sorry texts because “sorry I can’t be there” was code for “I’m married and have to be with my wife”.
I think you are right. “I understand why now: they get to know you, you share your thoughts, or jokes, with them. You can’t hang out too much without getting attached.” Also don’t forget what Natalie says about our knickers! I’m still trying to get some consciousness around that one.
I don’t want to stray off the topic but I’ve thought about hanging out with attached male colleagues because I do too. I think you’ve hit the nail on the head, when they are attached you have to be aware of the topics discussed and the time spent with them.
Good thing you are getting out of dodge! Click up your heels and RUN. Also don’t forget, these days we can stay in touch via cyberspace. Be careful.
I’m south of San Fran.
Grace:
“everytime you looked at him you’d feel the urge to punch him for what he’s (chosen to) put you through.”
I have often though this too when it comes to my EUM, if he and I had ever got it together as a “real” couple. And I think he knows this too. He must, surely. But truth is I have been resisting the urge to punch him for years, and in not having done that I have displayed either exceeding stupidity or extraordinary restraint!
I have known – but supressed – for a long time that I could never happily be with this man who put me through so much misery, and without so much as a shiver – in fact acted out for all the world as if he thought his weird behaviour quite the normal thing to be doing. And maybe it is… in a country on planet Zorg where the Hokey-Cokey is the national anthem and where they communicate in riddles with forked-tongue using only the keypad on mobile phones imported from planet earth.
Fearless you paint with words…love it ! As with Natalie, I get so many visuals when you speak. You are truly gifted! Actually there are so many incredibly talented writers here…I just have to let you ladies know how special you are…had to pop in to let out a few comments and to tell you all how fabulous you are despite many of you who fail to realise the truth of it…xo, leisha
Thanks Leisha – glad you like – and you’re not so bad yersel’! (I have always been a voracious reader, have a degree in English and teach English in schools so I do have that useful background behind me. Having said this, I am far from pefection! I DO NOT get ivry singal spellin or pungtuaishun perfict at all – and am not a walking dictionary!) 🙂
I agree that there are many good writer’s on here and many who do imagery very well – Natalie is a prime example of the perfect image maker! – one of the things that kept me coming back here is that so many ‘relationship’ sites, blogs and forums on the web are full of daft folk (sorry, but true) with nothing sensible to say while Nat’s site abounds with seriously intelligent people from whom I can learn and who offer such insightful experiences and thoughts – that’s why I love it!
And now that I have gone way off topic I will, if permitted, (seamlessly!) bring it back with….
…and that is why… not one of us here – not one! – should ever be begging for crumbs from some arrogant user or for sad arse ‘sorrys’ from men who don’t know the meaning of word nor should we ever again find ourselves apologising – to him or to ourselves – for how their sad arse behaviours have affected us.
He said : i am soooory so sooorryyy……
With a sad and whiny voice……..it melt my heart than cause i was too manipulated
i guess i saw it from my own point of view……if i say sorry. …it has a meaning…..it means i am deeply sorry i hurt your feelings and it hurts me more than you know and am willing to try to never do this again……i am trying to protect your soul to getting hurt from me……..
But for HIM…..it meant sorry to say : ok i apologized can i go on now using you as my doormat? i said sorry…….what else du you want from me?
Well his actions showed me afterwards how sorry he was. ….Big LOL…..
Words are so cheap….
For me there are some very powerful words existing, like love….soul…..forgiveness……and sorry……
But if these words are used by someone to achieve his narcissistic supply, they lose their powerful meanings
i admit am deeply sorry i let this man into my heart and soul but at the same time i know i learnt from this crappy and fearful situation…….
Sorry is a great word if its said with meaning behind and with the urgent will to change……
Ty ladies i read your comments every day and it helps me a lot……today i thought if such a site exists also for men. …Lol…..but i wont look for it online cause i maybe will feel SORRY for them.
Hugs ladies:)
This post resonated with me as well. My EUM’s latest apology regards lying to me about being in regular (daily) contact with the wife he is supposed to be separated from and the marriage he supposedly wants out of. When he got texts at unusual times he told me it was his parents/friends. When his phone rang late at night he explained it away. He’s not told her about me because ‘it’s not the right time’. In a bunny boiler-ish moment that this relationship has reduced me to I looked at his phone when he was in the shower. Numerous texts evident between them involving feelings (so more than just practical arrangements regarding their daughter) and even the suggestion of an ‘open marriage’. I confronted him and told him to eff his open marriage and get out of my life. His apology text?
‘ I’d had a very difficult day on Sunday and I know I’d said I’d tell her about you. I didn’t because it was fathers day but I did reiterate our separation. We had a long, difficult and tiring conversation about the long term and recent past and largely my future. All I’ve done since is ask her how she is and tell her i’ve felt fairly sad, which I think is understandable. I’ve already told you this and should have told you that she keeps calling me. I’m sorry I didn’t’.
Me, me, me, me, me. And its a work of genius. ‘All I’ve done’ = you’re overreacting, ‘understandable’ = feel sorry for me I’m a poor hurt bunny in a difficult situation.
Now I have several follow-up sorry texts when I didn’t respond and an ‘I LOVE YOU’ text. Capital letters. Wow. Now I’m convinced.
Still Vulnerable:
“Now I have several follow-up sorry texts when I didn’t respond and an ‘I LOVE YOU’ text. Capital letters. Wow. Now I’m convinced.”
I have to say again… LOL… LOL… 🙂 I know it’s not funny, but these comments have me in stitches today! Thanks!
Great article Nat! Am so glad it’s not just me – it helps to know that I wasn’t being too ‘sensitive’ or over-reacting’ all those times I was ‘not impressed’ (with things like capital letters!)
SV:
You shorthand the man you’re involved with as EUM. Isn’t it more appropriate to say MM? He may be separated, but he is STILL MARRIED. Maybe some of the OW posts might speak to you.
SV
I think he’s being shoddy towards you, no doubt about that. But I’m afraid you can’t criticise a man for taking calls from his wife and texting her. She has a right to contact him, to speak to him, to live with him and to have sex with him. They’re married.
Yes he’s a twit but you need to see your part in this situation, cos that’s the only thing you can do something about. He’s lying to both of you. Surely when he was waffling on about separation to her and his future, she must have asked “Is there someone else? Just tell me!” And he must have said no. I’m sure it WAS a long, difficult and tiring conversation, the lies he must have been telling. It’s amazing that he’s got two women on the go yet feels sorry for himself. Pathetic.
I really don’t think you want this man and his open marriage. Stop fighting for it and give yourself some peace. Listen to your anger, it’s the only sensible thing in this mess! Cut him off.
Thanks so much for writing this……I got up at 03 a.m. b/c I am so sick of the BS ‘Sorry’…..
I went against my judgement, insticts, and the ‘red flag’ posts to be in a relationship with someone who is not fully divorced (with whom I did have an affair last year, we split up, together, split, etc). Well, this time he said I was the ‘one he really wanted’ and bla bla until last weekend he tells me he is trying to get back w/the soon-to-be ex.
I was in a world of pain, self-recrimination, etc. He sobbed so much breaking up with me that I ended up comforting HIM, how crazy! And now I hear the big SORRY at every turn.
Last night he asked to come over just to hang out, talk etc. Well, after a while starts telling me how things with the soon-to-be-ex are not going as rosy as the day he broke up with me…and I just looked at him and said, don’t expect me to give you advice!
And after a passionate kiss that I feel like an idiot for, he kept saying ‘sorry’ …
Yuk! So some cry baby who hurt you first time round comes back with sorry and a sob story how its not working out for him with his new squeeze and he gets kissed..should be booted in the balls more like. Get some real friends! You have no idea how bad that just read! He sounds like a user, but thats what the “sorry lets be friends” is all about, you being available to be used up at some time down the line when they need an ego boost.
I admit what I wanted more than anything from the exMM was to realise he had treated me badly and I wanted an apology. Instead, what I got was an offer of friendship and when I wasn’t sure about that and indicated that I would have to think about his offer he said:
“You will accept being friends, I know you will.”
WRONG! I could never accept it because deep in his soul, the essence of his being wasn’t the capacity to see how much damage he had caused by twisting and manipulating situations to his advantage. He is all about “the him” his problems, his needs, his blah blah blah. Well, I find it all boring. He is boring. Even an apology today would mean nothing because it would be a hollow apology. I don’t need his apology he can shove it.
Contrary to that, my exH and I when we argued he used to make me feel so bad and made me say sorry for my errors. It was him that made the frikken errors the majority of the time. I would say cheating on your partner is a major error yet I was made to pay for his error in nasty ways for over ten years – oh yes, his indiscretions were all my fault. Screw that!
Master manipulators and men that are emotionally stunted – that’s what these men are. I will never apologies again for somebody else’s mistakes and neither will I accept an apology from someone who isn’t genuine.
In fact, I would like to see any of these guys or any guy try this crap with me again. I know how fast I would flush them!
Geez Leigh… When he said…
You will accept being friends, I know you will.” was he swinging a pocket watch in front of your eyes and also directing you to be “sleepy, you are very sleepy…”? Sounds like he thought he could just hypnotize you into going along on his ride.
I never really got an apology either other than… “i’m sorry for all the stupid things WE said and did,” or “I’m SO sad that in helping me, I hurt you,” or “we were young, no wonder so many stupid things were said and done.” All carefully phrased to avoid taking responsibility and so deflecting the need to actually apologize. However, the fact that he said these things (issued separately over a number of months) tells me that he knew very well what he had done and how hurtful it had been to me but hoped that his half-hearted acknowledgements would be enough to wipe the slate clean and continue on. The last time we spoke, he also pulled the “keep in touch/friendship card” and I all but hung up on him. He tried to contact me twice more (I didn’t respond) and his last correspondence again brought up the past with out apologizing for his behaviour. It consoles me that he obviously knows deep down what happened, feels regret about it but an actual apology would be too damaging to his sense of self and also would be a self-admission that he needed to change. This he will never do.
All this to say, maybe your situation is similar and so you can walk away knowing that deep down, he knows as well. But the difference is, they have to live with themselves. And finally, if we are NC then they can’t justify/rationalize their behaviour by playing the “she’s crazy card” which they tend to do when we keep in touch demanding that they change/validate us.
Phoebe,
At times it did feel like he was trying to be so controlling and trying to mould my mind. I wasn’t having any of it! My knowing this was a deep and great root of my pain with this guy. I knew it was happening but at the time felt powerless.
You’re right, at a deeper level they know what they did but deflect it part of that is offering the friendship card – it makes them feel like the ‘nice guy’ “Well, I offered her the friendship card.” Big deal! If anyone usually accept this they end up being treated worse than ever.
I had my exH play the “you’re crazy” card. We were talking the other day about the children and about normal people. (Long conversation) Anyway he said that I’ve always been crazy. Justification for his behaviour yet again and deflection. These men are incapable of change. Fixated on themselves.
All I have to do is think about the way the exMM talked about his wife to know he disses me in the same way, too. I used to feel consoled about the fact that he may deep down know what he did was wrong. Now I no longer think that way. I think to myself that I console myself with the fact that I knew that what I did was wrong and I did something to finally put a stop to it.
In regards to him, the only consolation that I have is that he has left me alone and that is 1) Out of his need for a get out of jail free card and 2) Out of some level of respect and 3) Because he doesn’t know whether I would tell his wife.
at the end of the day, I’m in NC for me. If he thinks I am less or more crazy I no longer care. The point is no amount of apology will ever fix what he did. It’s done and I’m over it 🙂
Ha ha ha!! I laughed outright when you said you and your XH were having a convo and he busts out the… “You’ve always been crazy…” That just cracked me up – because my ex said that as well… that and “You think too much. You over-complicate things.” and both of these are things I really like about myself. A. that I am expressive, and B. that I am analytical. When he said those two things I was dumb struck because I finally realized that he didn’t get me at all. That the things he should have enjoyed or appreciated, he dismissed. And that is when I knew that even if he magically materialized into an available man, it still wouldn’t work! It was so freeing to me. It also makes me giggle that he has tried to excuse his behaviour in almost every communication (without ever actually apologizing) and so he is carrying that guilt with him.
Also – you mention your exMM dissing his wife. This to me is a MAJOR red flag. When a man speaks poorly of his ex or any woman for that matter, I bail. It is indicative of how they perceive women and how they will eventually speak about me.
my turn to say Amen to somebody Phoebe !
I got that ‘you’re overcomplicating things’ every time something was either bothering me or he had said and done a major sabotaging thing to our relationship. He used to say ‘you don’t talk, you do monologues’ and also ‘you are more clever than me, you manipulate me’ when all I said for example was ‘well, give me an example where I hurt your feelings *yesterday* instead of you hurting mine’ .
Monologue or not, at least I opened my mouth, mind and heart.
He also said a lot of ‘trust me, I’m sorry, you don’t know how sorry I am’ and he said these words by yelling them at me.
Making me, agàin say sorry, because I didn’t understand how sorry he was !
It made me question my whole personality, because actualy, I wasn’t more clever at all, he had me in a web of putting me down and trying to change me into somebody I am not.
I am not ‘Zen’ or whatever he would understand by that, me too am expressive and analytic and friends have to slowly make me see again that it is something that is appreciated and not seen as a handicap, like I feel it right now.
Oh, and the dissing ? Yes ! Major red flag ! They say it about (any) other woman, and they WILL say it to you, or about you at some stage.
re: dissing the ex, I was naive (or just in a less than ideal frame of mind, during my divorce) but I learned this the hard way. Technically I didn’t stick around long enough to find out what he thinks about me — he isn’t saying it luckily (?) because I was (yuck) a secret — but I bet in his head, after me, his theory is once again confirmed that women are only ‘nice’ to him (perhaps he meant for him?) for a couple of years. *That* alone should have been a red flag, instead I pulled a classic attempt to be the exception.
Speaking of secrecy, I finally came across his brother. I’d never met him before, but last week our paths crossed. I recognized him immediately and obviously he had had no clue I ever existed. It would have been so painful, lame, humiliating etc. to be faced with this fact in the bad old days. I would have wanted to say hello to him, introduce myself and tell him I knew his brother — as a, umm as his what? No label that I’m proud of. “He and I do phone sex, pleasure to meet you too?” LOL Now he is nothing to me, no need to define that… I’m so glad I’m out of this impossible situation!
““You think too much. You over-complicate things.” and both of these are things I really like about myself. A. that I am expressive, and B. that I am analytical.”
__________________________
Phoebe, you just gave me a lightbulb moment. In learning to accept & like/love myself, I’m beginning to appreciate these things about myself too. I’m an introvert, I think “too much”, and I’m a pretty good writer. I can’t believe I just typed that 😐 because the road to self-love & self-acceptance has been/is hard, so it’s very difficult to compliment myself or receive compliments from others.
From now on, instead of beating up on myself about thinking “too much” when it comes to some things, I’m going to remember that it’s a good quality to have whether it’s flawed or not (I say flawed because I DO need to learn to loosen up sometimes too). Balancing act.
One of my favorite sayings is from a particular song: Just take me as I am or have nothing at all. I’m almost there. 🙂
@runnergirl
i am curious
you said in your comment you think you know you wouldnt wanna be with him if he left his wife
can you explain how it came to this and how you feel this?
i myself see the actions my MM did and he treated me really poorly several times like cutting me completely out of his life then regretting and bla bla bla
i have to say it was always me crawling after him like a stupid banned dog……
i always wondered IF he would have come back……till some time ago after several months of NC from my side, he left messages ( just little ones like hope you are fine….) at a mutual friends account( cause i closed all mine)
he finally got me to react and we talked ….he was as sweet as always till i asked what he is goint to do and if he goes back to his wife …..he admitted….. i was so mad i left some messages on his workphone telling him why in the world he did this ,now that i was on my way away from him …..just to let me feel he wants to be with me BUT telling me in the same sentence he goes back to his wife……..i left another message to tell him he should be good to his wife and not to hurt her anymore and look for some peace inside of himself……anyway lol then i changed my number what was hard for me but the only right thing
the question ,would i have wanted to be with him ,after all what happened IF he decided to have a relation with me is a question that sometimes comes up while thinking through the stuff …..thts why i asked you
Simone
Simone,
Ask yourself this: “Would I want to be with a man that cheated on his wife?” “Would I be able to handle it if he did this to me?” If your answer is NO then you know that’s how some of us on here have reached that conclusion.
You have to be brutally honest with yourself and get rid of the fantasy. Cheaters are cheaters, they sing from the same hymn sheet. If they did it to their wives they will do it to us, too, at some point.
Leigh, simone
I’ve cheated in relationships but didn’t cheat in the last one even though I’m 99% sure that he did. It’s not always the case that a cheater will cheat again. However, someone’s best chance of not cheating again would be after some painful soul searching and in a new relationship with a new person. Not because the new person is better, but because the foundation of the relationship would be different. And it’s still a long shot. simone, even if he did leave his wife and changed, it’s over for the two of you. I should think he’d be too ashamed to go back to you, plus, even though it’s hypocritical, he won’t see someone who was the OW as being “good enough” for the new him. But I think, soon, you won’t care anymore.
And you’d find it difficult to trust him. If he got home home late, or if he got a text while you were out together and looked a bit shifty, it would cross your mind “I wonder if …”
Simone71, Good question. I’m not really sure what has happened or why that thought popped in my head. I think it is a combination of factors. I think not being involved with him has given me time to focus on me instead of him like Natalie says. That took some doing, mind you. Then, when I’ve decided to dip my toes back in to see if he’s changed, I get a ‘suck it and see’ just talking on the telephone. He hasn’t changed. Now what I see and hear is who he really is instead of who I thought he was. Since the big moment is only 30 days away (last kid leaves for college), it actually scared me that I could be faced with the choice. As he was rattling on about himself as usual, I was thinking “would he treat me like he has treated his wife”? Of course he would. He hasn’t changed but my perception of him has. Would I want to be treated like he has treated his wife? No. Would I get him to change? Heavens NO!!!!
Like you, I spent two years tryinng to be the exception to the rule, although I didn’t have the language to describe it then. Now that I do, I don’t think I want to be the exception because I don’t respect him.
I’ve also worked on and written down my boundaries and being involved with an attached man (including him) is a line in the sand I will not ever cross again. I made a giant mistake and am learning from it. Therefore no matter how sorry he is, I’m not going back to that painful, dark, nasty place of being the understudy OW and I don’t think I even want the starring role because it would be the starring role in his life. I don’t think he is capable of the concept of an “our” life.
I hope this helps you. It helped me to think through the jumble of thoughts from yet another short suck and see moment. Good for you changing your numbers. He’ll probably keep popping up to see if he can get some cake. Stay strong and focus on you like Natalie says. Isn’t it funny how MM don’t like to talk about their wives with ex-mistresses. Bringing up the wife and using her name is GREAT MM repellent. Thanks Natalie.
This is exactly what mm did to me. He was telling me how much he loved me and wanted to move in with me one night and then just disappeared and wouldn’t respond to my messages at all. 5 mos. later he calls saying he was sorry that everything had happened so fast(he pushed for that) he had gotten scared. Within 10 mins I had forgiven him and made plans to see him that night. It only took one day for the blowing cold treatment to set in for about 2 mos. Then 3 months of hot, tons of attention, future faking and then the last 2 weeks of Siberian treatment being ignored except when I made contact and short replies to my texts.
Last night I said enough. Sent him a text told him he had hurt me for the last time and I was Done! I didn’t even get a response or half hearted sorry. But like so many have said I am sure he is so wounded by that because he told me he was in a funk and shouldn’t I be feeling sorry for him? Since I have been involved with him, he has always been going through a rough patch, or at a low point,or in a funk. And like others have said I always ended up apologizing to him for getting upset for his crappy treatment of me. It’s crazy. But I’m finally free!!!
Ms. option,
Hope that you meant it, that you are done, because haven’t you initiated contact before with this guy when he wasn’t giving you attention? Have you decided that you are now in NC?
ms option
It’s terrific that you’ve made this decision. Be prepared for him to try contacting you (he’s done it before). And you may even feel the urge to have one last word (we’ve all been there).
Delete his number (even if you’ve memorised it, you can’t remember it forever) and even change yours. You need to minimise the chances of a relapse.
Stay strong.
Why did you justify your actions to a cheating loser? When you go to the trouble of letting a man know that he has hurt you for the last time you are in effect giving away all your power, and he knows it ! Far better to show how you feel by your actions rather than showing your hand. And what did you expect him to respond with? Think about it..he could only say two things, either “sorry”, which you don’t want to hear, or “OK” which you don’t want to hear.
Men who cheat, lie and have no integrity get involved with women who are enablers. Stop being an enabler. I say this not just to you but to all the women on this site who are enablers.
If you want to be treated like a victim, then continue to act like one.
OMG! I was “this-close” to telling a guy friend of mine that SORRY should be his middle name.
I didn’t though. I decided to just float away to nicer people and nicer things….much more relaxing that way.
I’m sure he’s saying “sorry” to someone else right now.
I really want the apology, I want my AC to acknowledge that what he did hurt me. This is what I am struggling with now, though the rational side of me knows even if he did, it’d be BS anyways. I’ve been stuck in this loop for a few days now, and am trying to remember like Natalie wrote, that an apology is just lip service anyways.
You can’t get ‘genuine’ apologies out of these people. I was watching something on the telly about adult men who’d been sexually abused as children. One of them met with his now quite elderly abuser in an effort to finally understand and put to rest what had happened to him – he wanted an apology and an explanation (similar to what many here say they hoped for from the EU/AC) The old git of an abusing man couldn’t even admit he’d done anything wrong (having been raised a Catholic I am saddened to say the ‘old git’ was an ex RC priest); he decided to avoid the issue by going down the ‘selective memory’ route – couldn’t remember doing any such thing! Yet the other man quite plainly had been abused as had a number of other boys. But, point is, what struck me clearly was the utter futility of the abused man’s search for an apology from this manky old abusing lying hypocrite; the abuser was plainly incapable of empathy therefore incapable of genuine remorse on any level.
And, talk about a wasted journey, the abused man was also hoping for an explanation from his abuser! Like what? ‘well ‘it’s cos I’m a using, abusing manipulative, self-serving git who got off on terrorising small boys’. Not very likely!
You are looking to him for validation and giving away your power to him. Not good. Wake up.
You are absolutely correct, my heart doesn’t always remember this, but it’s fabulous to have other people remind me. Thank you!
Ahh, the meaningless apology that we never got. It seems some of the ladies here see the lack of an apology as a mark of respect but if past behavior indicates future behavior, my MM never respected me. The frustration and hurt from his bad behavior and treatment of me finally exploded and I chose to end our eight month affair with a scathing e-mail in which I called him a “user” and a “coward,” used foul language, and wished for someone who abused and used him as he did me. Just awful stuff that I normally would NEVER say or think to another human being. I feel so upset that I allowed my anger to take over instead of making a graceful exit…
I’ve actually thought I’m the one who owes him an apology!!! Yikes, what do you think about that, BR ladies?? Does my outburst trump his assholery??
No it doesn’t. I know you wanted to exit with dignity but don’t apologize…you’ll feel worse. Trust me on this. Let your silence regain your dignity for you.
Thanks, I really needed to hear that today. I think I also chose to be that harsh because, subconsciously, I wanted to make sure I never have to worry about him coming back. Your response just confirms my gut feeling which (HEL-LO!), I should have listened to months ago… : )
I started seeing my exAC in December, he got his new job late January, hired his new secretary in March, and she got tired of his behaviour and quit citing him to HR in early June.
I had been hearing no sorries up til then, and when I heard his secretary, with whom he should have been particularly professional, was bailing on him after only three months (and probably waited until the day her probation was up to put in the complaint), I ‘tried’ to break up with him. I said, look, when I tell you you behave badly, you explain why I am misunderstanding. But apparently your secretary feels the same way I do.
That’s when the sorries began. He quickly realized that at work, and with me, displays of remorse buy more time and space to figure out how to get what one wants.
I felt like our relationship had turned, that he’d finally realized his mistakes and was – with the help of the counsellor his own executive team hired (to tell him he really was overworked and stressed) – owning his behaviour. He even brought home pamphlets about counselling and love languages.
But he quickly forgot about doing any of it, kind of like someone who decides they are going to exercise three times a week might just might not do it. So then, after that, when he busted boundaries, he would look me in the eye and say “I’m sorry.”
God, that made it more confusing! But in the end he is simply very clever, clever enough to hear from either counselling sources or his harem who would share all their boyfriend woes with him that “I’m sorry that you felt x” didn’t cut the mustard. He learned to say “I’m sorry,” had a great delivery, but had only learned a surface technique.
I do think part of him was trying while another part wasn’t invested at all, if you believe in such psychic splits. Not that THAT means I should have been invested in the whole guy. His sorry, and the work to perfect it, did come from the bit of him that wanted the relationship for his own needs, but when sorry only comes from 30% of a man’s full being, it’s not worth enough.
Magnolia, I’ve done the same thing with previous relationships. When the secretary felt the same way you did, it validated you. Therefore, we think cool they will change afterall it’s not just me. Then they learn how to play the sorry card and we think they are owning their shoddy shit and will change. However, in my experience too, it was clever surface technique to buy time. That’s where it got confusing for me too. The sorries and half-hearted attemps kept me rope-a-doped, waiting and hoping, based on the premise that if they own it they can change it. I didn’t realize sorry could mean so many different things other than sorry.
Is this the same ex you suspected of liking little girls too? It sounds from the outside like this guy has a ton of very serious problems and you are way better off-loading his sad sorry baggage along with his sorries. You deserve so much better.
Sorry means nothing if their actions continue.
Let’s face it, most people don’t like admitting when they are wrong, done something wrong, or taken advantage of somebody let alone adding unavailabillity to the mix. Really being genuinely sorry about selfish behaviour would require a healthy level of self introspection and EU people just don’t have it unfortunately. But they will think nothing of using it as another paintbrush in their box to get you back to the pretty picture you yearn for in your head that he might become… one day. Its like waiting for a train that never stops to pick you up, it may roll by slowly… you try to jump on or its too full. It never quite gets to the station on time, ready to board with a nice comfortable seat. I’d take another train.
Hello everyone – I found this site a couple of days ago and have been printing the articles and related comments and high-lighting words of advice and little quips here and there so that I can re-type them as reminders and words of encouragement when I have (like I’m having this very moment) a “pity party”.
This article actually had me laughing! I remember the first apology my AC gave to me – he apologized and then immediately said he wanted sex FIRST in case the “talk” we were about to have didn’t end favoribly for him. I probably should be slapping myself because I didn’t see him for the self-absorbed, self-centered, egotistical, etc, etc, etc jackass that he was, even AFTER that comment. Needless to say … it took another 18 months for me to finally realize that I was getting ZERO return on my investment. (I’m sure there is an article on here somewhere about the effort and energy being one-sided, I just haven’t read all the articles yet).
I was NC for 2 weeks until I answered his call this week and accepted a lunch date for Wednesday – he wanted to give me my bday present. He stood me up – no call, no text, no email, no lunch (and of course, no damn bday present). He called on Thurs – asking if he could take me to lunch – and I reminded him that he had stood me up the day before, and that no, I wasn’t interested. He gave me another one of his “backhanded” apologies by backtracking and saying that he had said EITHER Wed or Thursday.
PERFECT timing for the article. Thank You!! Keep up the great posts everyone – the comments and responses have helped me put a lot of things in perspective.
Epfalent:
“I remember the first apology my AC gave to me – he apologized and then immediately said he wanted sex FIRST in case the “talk” we were about to have didn’t end favorably for him.”
Is he for real? WTF???!?!? ROTFLMAO. This is so absurd & asinine & egotistical that it’s hysterical. He’s got “balls” for saying that. What a self-entitled assclown blowhard jackass. I’ve heard it all now.
ROTFLMAO. 😐
It really helps to look at these guys in a humorous way. Picturing his face as an ass while blowing out a hot air flatulent irrelevant sorry. It might even make you laugh mid apology. Wouldn’t that be grand. Then the poor little bunny hopping away so sad that he couldn’t master the game any more. Poor little thing. Life can be so hard. Hop out of here you little rodent. : )
We take these poor little injured bunnies too seriously. Someone told me to picture them in a ridiculous way in the middle of what would normally have hurt you and it truly lightens up the whole scenario. Sounds weird but it works.
jennynic:
“Picturing his face as an ass while blowing out a hot air flatulent irrelevant sorry.”
Oh my goodness. ROTFLMAO!!! Absolutely f***ing hysterical! And “poor little injured bunnies” & “little rodents”! ROTFLMAO!!! Gonna have to remember these for if I get back into dating and come across an asshat or two. Thanks!
@Leigh
i hear what you are saying
its a progress. ……if our feelings wouldnt have made us so blind then we may have listend to our gutt feeling…..but it takes time to convince our hearts with the knowledge we may had from the beginning…….but NO. ….instead we behave like teenagers without a clue in relations………healing takes and needs time
i dont know if i want any sorry…….i wouldnt know anyway if it was a faked sorry……so what………if you are truely sorry for your behaviour then your actions will show and there is no need for even telling me. …….better to show at least at the end respect with NC and keep this sorry for yourself
Hi all, I usually post on the facebook version of this blog, but always read the comments here. Today’s subject really resonates with me. I always took my EUM’s apologies at face value. But they never meant anything more than, “I am sorry I am being inconvenienced at the moment by YOUR hurt feelings”. I was always made to feel crazy for any need or hurt feeling I ever had.
My ex EUM/MM started the apology/reset button cycle in the first couple of dates. That should have given me a huge red flag, but of course I was too in love with my fantasy to notice any red flags.
To me, apologies mean nothing when they are repeated over and over and do not go hand in hand with some sort of behavioral recovery. Towards the end of my relationship, it got so I accepted these apologies only so I could get back to the safe hiding place of my fantasies of how things could be. (but weren’t). I didn’t believe that he was sorry, and I didn’t really think things were going to change at that point. I only wanted to numb and hurry up my own pain and anger so that I could get back to fantasizing that things were great.
Great Article Once Again!!
“Look, can you hurry the eff up and accept my apology so I can stop feeling bad about it? You perceiving me as wronging/hurting/abusing/whatever, you is terribly inconvenient and my ego doesn’t like the pinch of reality, so if you don’t mind, get a shuffle on, accept my apology and let’s move on so I can slam my palm down on the Reset Button. “
This was my AC – after lying to me and cheating, he never really apologized until 2 1/2 yrs later with “I’m sorry about the Kathy thing and Dana thing” My reply was please don’t say “thing” – that only trivializes what you did. And that’s because it WAS trivial to him – but not to me.
My favorite – he told me what was holding us back was I kept looking backwards and not forgetting – uhhh sorry, you’re still talking to the girl (present NOT past) and you have never truly apologized. Needless to say after this “apology” he did it again with a different “thing” and still is in contact with the girl thing from a couple years ago. Goes to show you what he really thinks of women – THINGS!!
Broke up 10 1/2 months – yea – self-esteem is going up, but lately feeling lonely as I have cut a few people out of my life that was one-sided after dealing with the AC!!!
As a relationship coach, I’m shocked how many partners seem to think, admitting to or apologizing for some transgression, is like a magic eraser.
I’ve seen resentment built in partners that think “Geez, I said I was sorry and I won’t do it again, why can’t we move forward”
I tell my clients that “Sorry” is just the being of the apology “Process”, that rebuilding trust and love are the ambiguous works that must follow. They will be varied and sundry but need to be performed.
Great advice
Michael,
Yes, it seems to be the experience of everyone here that some people think that a mere two syllabled ‘sorry’ is enough to right all wrongs but worse than that it’s the grudging nature of delivery, the follow-up insinuation that ‘he’ is not accountable for the offense and worse that actually ‘you’ are!
Also, I’m not sure what you mean by ‘ambiguous’ in the sentence:
“…rebuilding trust and love are the ambiguous works that must follow.”
With these arseholes now I say sorry. Really? Yes, sorry, you misunderstood me for someone who gives a shit. LOL
I’ve always thought of myself as a forgiving person, but I’m starting to wonder whether I am.
A year ago I was involved with a total AC. He behaved in a way that hurt me deeply and did genuinely regret it. He didn’t want me as his girlfriend, but did regret losing me as a friend. After a while I forgave him. We’re still friends. I no longer have any feelings for him, but I do still carry the hurt with me. I still feel rejected and it had a massive impact on my self esteem.
Have I forgiven him, or do I just not want to be seen to be difficult? He no longer has the power to hurt me, but by keeping him in my life, am I getting any benefit other than just keeping the peace?
The next AC made me feel like it was my fault. Again, we weren’t in a relationship and he wanted to stay friends but I didn’t want and explained why. I mentioned things like seeing him with other women etc and he said he would never do that to me, his reasons for not wanting to be in a relationship applied to all women blah blah. I’ve since found out that some of things I was paranoid about I was right to be. I’m not so much hurt about that, as I am the way he made out it was my fault. He made me feel like I was crazy and I wasn’t.
Part of me wants to tell him what I’ve found out, delete him from everything and forget about him. Another part of me doesn’t want to be seen as over dramatic.
Is it worth holding onto either of those friendships? When I say I forgive them, do I really just mean ‘I won’t talk about this any more’?
I wish I could get past caring what he thinks. I have no clue how to do that.
Lost,
Your comment is exactly what Nat’s post is getting at, I think. It seems you are looking to forgive some really direspectful behaviour (NB which hasn’t even merited the most cursory apology from either of these guys) so you can feel like a ‘good person’. You are a good person! Take that as read. They, on the other hand, are A/Cs – that means they are assclowns. (It might help you to go back and read BR and remind yourself about what kind of people A/Cs are.) They are not interested in your ‘forgiveness’, and you don’t need to take crap from people because you want them (and you) to view you as a saintly, all-forgiving, peace-keeping force. What they will see is a doormat and they will happy oblige wiping their feet on it. They don’t care what you think of them – they want you as a ‘friend with benefits’ – ‘a puppet on a string’ and all on their own very unreasonable terms, and yet the one who’s doing all the apologising here is you. You are apologising for everyone, including yourself. You really don’t need these selfish, manipulating men in your life at all, do you? Also, you are totally *allowed* to want to have a proper relationship with a guy and to refuse to be the ‘hurt friend’ who wanted more. You are allowed to simply say, ‘thanks, but no thanks!’ Maybe best think about just going NC with both of them – that’s how you will stop caring what they think – and then you don’t have to worry about constantly having to thrust the gift of forgiveness upon them.
Lost
Dump the pair of them. I cannot believe that a (responsible) religious teacher, or a loving parent, or anyone else who really cares about you would tell a woman to stay in contact with men who have hurt her and abused her trust. It’s oldfashioned and may be sexist, but the balance of power is too much in their favour.
Don’t sacrifice yourself on the Altar of Being Perfect. You don’t have to sympathise with these people, you don’t have to be endlessly understanding and you certainly don’t have to keep them in your life. I’m gonna break this to you bluntly – you are just not that important to them. If they were really sorry they would leave you alone, not still be trying to use you.
By all means forgive them. From a distance.
Think about your future. When you meet your future husband and the father of your children (if that’s what you’re aiming for) are you going to introduce him to your ex -ACs? Cos you can’t keep your friendship with them a secret. My acid test is this – would you happily sit down this this person, together with your husband and your children for a family picnic? If not, they’re not your friend. Get rid.
Lost – Try reading this:
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/after-the-breakup-hold-tight-to-your-self-respect-and-stop-trying-to-be-friends-with-the-ex-that-mistreated-you/
Lost
I agree. The most pain I experienced came from the fact that he didn’t give a crap whether he hurt me or not (4 years). There was the open, gaping, cheating wound – which he turned around and poured salt in.
Save your forgiveness for those to whom it genuinely matters. You don’t have to forgive ANYONE who doesn’t care whether they have it or not, except maybe so they can let themselves off the hook for some pretty unforgivable behavior.
To Epfaleit
You’ll feel better without him.
The thing is you went NC on him which took away his power. But then you answered his call 2 weeks later and opened the door for him to manipulate you again. He dangled a birthday present as bait, in order to manipulate you and speed things up. You gave up your power and gave him the power by agreeing to meet with him. He abused that power by standing you up. He then called you the next day told you, that you had the day wrong, crazymaking, ( look up ‘gaslight effect’ too).
My ex was a master at manipulating words, so much that I found myself writing down most of what he said, incase he’d go back on his word. That right there should’ve made me leave. But for some silly reason, I wanted to catch him out, prove I was right. Ultimately, even if you’re right you still lose, because you’ve wasted your time, energy, brain space and your emotionally spent by the end.
The only way to keep someone from manipulating you is NC. It gets easier at 2-3months. By the way, if the present wasn’t bait he would’ve dropped it at your doorstep by now and left, no strings attached.
To Aura,
Thank you! and you are absolutely correct with your words of wisdom. I did answer the phone and “let him in” and I’ve been paying for it for the past few days.
I know he will try to call again because 1) he still has the bday present 2) there are still some of my personal items at both of his houses 3) we went on a hunting safari in Namibia last Sept and the mounts/rugs are finally in transit to the states and 4) LOL it’s time for him to be going into some serious withdrawals for some “booty” – NOT 🙂 My willpower will be stronger this week, I’ve got meetings all week at work (outside my office, so I won’t be at my desk phone) and I’m going to start gutting/remodeling one of my bathrooms at night to keep busy. Started NC over on Thursday, so I’m at what ….3 days? Damn, I’m an idiot for taking his call!
You are correct – those will be ways he will try to get me to see him again or just to talk. (Even though I’ve already told him to give or throw away my stuff because they are just “things” and I removed the majority of the items out of the houses several months ago without him knowing. I don’t think it would EVER occur to him to bring the items (including the bday present) to my house and just leave them- because I ALWAYS went to him (he lives about 30 miles away). Yes, he would say jump and I always asked “how high”.
I’ll keep reading the articles and comments for encouragement from others who have “been there, done that” and will keep reminding myself that if ya’ll can do it, so can I!!
I kind of envy people that at least get an apology. I never got an apology from my ex who did a 180 and dumped me by text, completely out of teh blue. He was cruel and blamed everything on me. Still no apology from him for treating me like garbage, for absolutely no reason.
fedup
don’t envy us. each time i got an “apology” they just went on to treat me even worse.
be grateful that he’s left you alone.
Don’t wait for him to say sorry, just get on with healing and with your life. If you do hear from him again, and I very much hope that you don’t, press delete. Why do I say delete? Cos it’s ALWAYS a CRAPPY TEXT!!
The only other time he told me he was sorry was when I busted him with a girl, that it turns out he never stopped seeing after a year and a half. That just left me feeling even more sick and disgusted…..yeah….sorry. They mean nothing except more misery for you.
I am surprised your EUM bothered to say anything at all – even via text (which is SO them). Mine would have left me blowing in the wind without a word had I not dumped him first.
I never got a sorry… and i know from this site that as frustrating and sad as that is, it’s ok.
He never once said a “sorry” nor gave recognition of how he messed up or how he hurt me. Me telling him I felt hurt meant nothing but an annoyance that he needed to get out of and brush under any excuse…just charm-and-play-victim his way out of it, relieve his guilt, and give him that free pass.
He finally said to me over a text session,”Fine, if an apology is what you want, i am sorry for unintentionally hurting you, but i was protecting you the only way I know how.” That statement is so ridiculous in so many ways. It was NOT a sincere apology or a recognition of my feelings nor a care for them. It was not a sorry that he messed up and lost me. It was an attempt to just say if I got hurt, it was my fault and not anything he meant to do or thinks he even did. So he will say the word sorry and then claim protecting me. Since when does a man “protect” a woman by being a total assclown??
I know from this site that I will never get that apology, and it is ok. I don’t need his validation. I can’t make him have empathy. I know what he did and how he tried to manipulate me into being the sorry one. I hope other women are reading this site so they will reject him when he waves that first red flag. And NOT CONTACT really is the best thing. I have blocked emails and phone.
@Lost
forgiving is one of the hardest things to do i guess
maybe a part of forgiving is not talking about it, realizing some day, feel the hurt deep inside and in your time accept and forgive what may or will include not to have feelings like we had for this person anymore.
Scars stay but they will become lighter.
See As Tanya said about her Mom…….she has scars in her heart that she carries with her.Inside she may forgave her Mom to find piece inside but as her Mom said sorry those scars got came up in her mind and brought old hurt feelings up but she could handle them today much better.congrats for that.
I had forgiven my Mom too for what she did or not did when i was a little girl but i forgave her to move on.
My scars got on the surface again when she died of a very bad cancer inbetween some weeks.I was there always for her. But i felt the pain of those scars again and i a cant cry now.So now it begins the nexts step of forgiving her on a deeper spiritual level in myself.
No need to hear her saying sorry cause the forgiving happens IN us.
Maybe forgiving is something we learn on strange paths sometimes.
Good luck with this ladies
I found that I had to block cell phone, text and IM and put a filter on my email as part of my NC or my ex EUM/MM would randomly show up and try to “apologize”.
To those who wish they had an apology (as opposed to none), in my experience, I can tell you, it makes no difference. Because the apology wasn’t real, it does not bring any real closure.
For me, in looking for an apology, I was really looking for them to treat me like they did in the beginning (the blowing hot phase) and to change into a person that was emotionally available. Since this is not a realistic expectation on my part, I was left feeling empty and unhealed by apologies. NC, the support of this board, and my commitment to myself are what are healing me, not his empty apologies.
Laura, that’s an interesting thought.
We don’t want them to be “sorry” we want them to be what we thought we were getting when we first met them. We don’t want them to be sorry by a text message either, which is just a blatant undisguised insult, a strategy to avoid being actually sorry – cos actually sorry would mean having a discussion about what he’s going to do to make amends.
And what do both parties really think it is that he has to make amends for? Well, it’s not really the latest hurtful thing he did yesterday or last week – that was only one of many – we don’t want him to be sorry for that isolated incident really and fix that; we want him to be sorry for ALL of it and then to fix ALL of it!
So, I have to admit that even when I did get from him what was something approaching a genuine appreciation of why his behaviour was hurtful to me, the bubble above my head (to borrow runner’s apt expression) was saying: ‘well, that’s all very well to be sorry about that thing you did last week but even if you never did that again the big problem is still here!! (The big problem being that they really don’t really give a shit about you and you want them to fix that!)
So admittedly, for me, a “sorry” – a “really, really sorry” – would have involved him turning up at my door with all his wordly goods, a date set with the priest and a convincing promise that he would never abandon me ever again (as if!).
So do they also know that all the wee sorrys are meaningless really and for the very reasons I have described, and is it that they don’t want you or him to make an issue out of his wee sorry otherwise the wee issue will inevitably lead to the big issue about his failure to come up with the big goods… and he don’t want to talk about that!
Hope I’m making sense; I haven’t quite formulated this idea yet! But I know my EU was all about avoiding any discussion at all, ever, about what was really going on with us.
Fair question !!!…. why were we still talking to them girls ? ….talking / giving precious moments of our time ..yikes …when it should have been a long hard FLUSH long before !!
I’m doing a lot of thinking back lately ..not in a sad crying way…as I would do when obsessing…but without the bloody rose coloured arse excusing specs on ….todays reflection : after more houdini impersonations…. and breaking a very expensive and hugely anticipated event at the last minute ( new outfit purchased , counting the sleeps etc ) …I called him on his behaviour and said he was a selfish and self centred…. what did I get ?? …an apology ???….. err nope….I shouldn’t get too excited about plans ..that’s childish…and you are obviously becoming a demanding cow . Say what ???? TOSSER . Thank the lordy I’m free of that bloody nonsense .
i always thought that an apology from my ex-AC of 4/5 years would make me feel better. When I imagined it coming a year ago I had visions of it being heart felt and tied up with a -lets start again suggestion. After about a year of NC (during which was broke one for a few weeks six months in) I finally got it…*it* being a text message?!?! wtf….. apologising for being self centered for the last three years. Seriously what kind of man waits a year to figure out he was self centred for the majority of our relationship. But besides that point and the lazy assed way of delivering this crumb, he’d missed a huge point – the cheating…. That for me was the worst. When I pointed this out to him he got all huffy with me and decided that i was playing some kind of victim.
As my mate said “er, he text you to apologise and then when you agreed with him he was in the wrong, he got angry??” Pretty much yup.
So I guess what I wanted to say to anyone waiting for an apology is, yes maybe you can get an apology from an AC, but what does it really mean – it didn’t make me feel any better as by the time I got it I was significantly over him, and whilst I’m sure he was a teaney weany bit sorry, I swear it was done just to ease his ego. He wouldn’t admit half the other stuff he’d done wrong in our relationship (like going speed dating ffs!). So in short it meant so very little to me. Hell, the timing of the text suggests he was at home having a few glasses of wine one night and wasn ‘t even sober.
But I guess that just sums up the hallmark of an AC – maybe some of them get a bolt of lightening that makes them realise the errors of their ways, but don’t count on it.
What’s scary (but also good in a away as it has made me realise how far i’ve come) is that even half a year ago I would have taken his half assed attempt at sorry as a sign we were meant to be together and i’d then start reacting and chasing him. Now i’m like – er no ta, next…
My EUM/MM would gladly give me a quick meaningless apology for the little, individual transgressions, hoping we would not end up in a discussion about where our relationship was going.
No matter what form the apology took (text, phone, face to face w/make up sex, etc…) I never felt truly better after the apology because I knew the main problem was still there, ie that this man was not reliable, that I could not trust him, and that he had changed from the glory days of the initial seduction period.
We had huge problems that we were not dealing with at all. (his marriage, his financial instability, my willingness to put up with both and be in a fake relationship that did not meet any of my needs, etc….) It was much much easier to go through an endless cycle of fight and “mini-apology” over each transgression than for me to truly see that there was no way in the universe that this man was ever going to live up to my fantasy vision of him, and there was no way in the world that this relationship was ever going to meet even a fraction of my real-life needs.
They can all keep their apologies. I would rather have a real, healthy relationship with an available man than an apology.
…me again… also i dont know if you can even trust a sorry from someone if they have been so bad to you. I realise there is perhaps a gradient of AC/EUM and some are worse than others. But I once dated a man who lied and said he had cancer and he needed time to rest etc and used that as an excuse to get out of half a weekend away i’d organised / go home early from work and cancel me…. in fact he was fine (just a few routine doctors appointments) and the time he was ‘resting’ he was actually seeing many other women. I would not want an apology from him for this behaviour ever, because how could someone who is capable for behaving like that mean a sorry? I would almost be insulted if he even attempted to apologise. he knew what he was doing all along. sorry for turning up late for dinner, okay.Sorry for not phoning when I said I would, okay. Sorry for lying I had cancer and sleeping with 8 other women behind your back in the space of a couple of weeks and be found to living with one of them (had two houses)…er,dont think so!
man, i’ve been out with some AC’s….
Wow! How did you find out he had been with eight women?
These comments cover so many elements of the sorry theme. Super helpful! Rather than go into the details my experience of sorry from the AC – which was in keeping with his general fear of ever being seen as the bad guy and justifying everything according to my supposed flaws – I will share another experience: One of my Dad’s cousins is a priest and he came round for lunch a few months ago. I was going through round two of my own guilt about the AC (‘maybe I had unrealistic expectations’, ‘maybe the (very retorts) I made to him dumping me were mean’, ‘maybe I should express sorrow that he felt so frustrated in our relationship’, ‘maybe I should make it clear that I forgive him’, ‘maybe we’re the same screwy people’ etc.). I told the priest about it, expecting that he would follow some policy-line about how I should try to reconcile things with him (or at least formally forgive him), and how we’re all part of God’s family, with all our human weaknesses etc. But he was straight-up: ‘Stay away from that person. He is harmful. You have nothing to say sorry for. Being angry and disappointed when someone harms you is not something to feel guilty about. You don’t have to ask for forgiveness from him, you have to ask it from yourself.’ I was all ‘Say what?’ – I found the advice so earthly. But he reiterated, ‘Love yourself. Especially while you’re healing, be around people who love you and stay away from those who don’t or can’t. And I know you’re a giver, but you can only give to others when you’re filled up yourself, and the path to that is self-forgiveness.’ Anyway, I am not religious, but it was useful and soothing…
Brilliant Elle. He’s so spot on – analysing people that mistreat you or sucking up to them to win them back etc is a sign of an abusive dynamic and also self-abuse.
Oh yay for exhaling and enjoying this new relationship!
I’m not one drop religious by any conventional definition but I am blown away Elle. Thank you for posting. “But he was straight-up: ‘Stay away from that person. He is harmful. You have nothing to say sorry for. Being angry and disappointed when someone harms you is not something to feel guilty about. You don’t have to ask for forgiveness from him, you have to ask it from yourself.’ I was all ‘Say what?”
Those are words to live by. Stay away from that person. And I agree. “Say what?”
Elle and Natalie and BR, thank you. Just when I think I can’t kick this nasty habit, I come to BR. You are all so incredible. Thank you Elle for posting your experience. I will ‘Stay away from that person. He is harmful.” Perfect. Clear and perfect. That’s going on my bathroom mirror. Hugs and XXO’s
Elle, I also want to say thanks too for this comment – wise words indeed.
I think the need to apologise to him is all about feeling complicit in enabling his behaviour and for the whole thing. (though I must be selfish cos I don’t feel any need to apologise to ‘him’ for anything – just to punch him, in the passing, before I lay into myself with a thorough thrashing! 🙂 It’s like two misbehaving children – ‘cept we are one of them!
Disclaimer: I do not intend or condone violence of any kind!
WOW Elle. I’m agnostic yet I’d attend his church anytime. So many clergy of different faiths would condone the assclown behavior. GREAT wisdom and, unfortunately, so uncommon for many people of the cloth. Give him a thumbs-up from me. 🙂
Oh girls….please help! I’m six month no contact and today I wanted to call him to apologize for going no contact! Wtf is going on with me? I chose the get out plan and then no contact for a reason and today I wana apologize so that I lose my dignity? I keep thinking he’s happy with the new girl but it shouldn’t matter. I just shod be so proud I’ve gone six months. And even if he tried coming back nothing would change. I know I have no reason to say sorry, then why am I so obsessed with contacting him?
You’re looking for validation. The new relationship may have you paranoid about cutting him off because you wonder if you were too harsh – your reasons for NC are your reasons. Don’t roll backwards and invalidate your judgement and decision. Own it and stop apologising for having a limit and some self respect.
Anari, I’m 6 months too. Let’s listen to Natalie and Elle: “Stay away from that person. He is harmful. You have nothing to say sorry for. ” Even if we called, texted, and/or emailed him, they would NOT spontaneously combust into the guy we thought they were no matter how elegant and poetically we waxed. They are simply them and harmful to us. Sometimes pronouns are good.
On another note: Shit. How come I can’t get the square peg to fit in the round hole?
Anari, if you choose to apologize, just do it once. If he/she ignores you or whatevers, then you’ve done your part and just leave that person alone. Since he has another person in his life, I suggest you don’t even contact him anymore. If you see him, say hi and that’s it.
I had a friend I apologized to for just getting mad at him because he snitched at me a few times. In return, he blamed me for everything and he thought what he did was right. In his mini apology he used the “but” so I did not take his apology as sincere.
So I guess I have a weird version of saying sorry because i now felt like I felt bad about it so I had to apologize, but then again, he started it and I’m saying sorry for his mistakes. Did I do the right thing? I’m really feeling angry now for him blaming me and still thinking that snitching was a righteous deal for him.
I have a different view to many of those who have commented on this blog. I see the word ‘sorry’ from the other side. I was the one who cheated on my girlfriend. It was very early in the relationship and I didn’t really know how I felt about her.
To be honest I didn’t expect much because we were both very independent, loved to party and flirt with others. I don’t really know why I cheated. I suppose, in a way, I was scared she was going to do it to me first. When she found out, I was surprised by her reaction. I had really hurt her. She had stronger feelings for me than I realised.
It was this point that I realised I was in love with her too. Instantly I regretted my actions. I was truly sorry, from the bottom of my heart, and I would do anything to prove to her that I would never cheat on her EVER again. Unlike what many of you have said, I was not sorry that I was found out.
In fact, I was glad because it made us both realise how we felt towards each other and how important we were to one another. I am also happy that she found out because if she hadn’t, I may have done it again, trying to hide from my true feelings. I had never felt this way toward someone before and it scared me.
I am so lucky that she did forgive me and 2 years later we are stronger than ever. It has taken me all this time to rebuild the trust, but finally we have trust for each other and we are so happy together. I have not cheated on her since and would never dream of doing it again.
The word ‘sorry’ is defined in the dictionary as ‘feeling of regret’. There is nothing that I regret more than cheating on my gorgeous girlfriend. I wish it had never happened and that I was man enough to talk to her about my feelings, without the fear that she wasn’t on the same page.
There is absolutely no excuse for cheating, but there are some people out there who are genuinely sorry, learn their lesson from it and never do it again.
Darren
When I was betrayed I didn’t “get over it”. Even when I stayed with the men. For years later it was in the back of my mind. And the relationships continued longer than two years. I’m sure the guys thought I was happy. I even moved in with one of them and married one. But in the end it didn’t work out. Not necessarily because of the betrayal, it’s pointless now to pick through why exactly, it’s long over, but certainly the betrayal didn’t help. And it was part of a bigger unhealthy dynamic which I recognise in your post.
I think a while ago you posted that a woman was “confident” because you were in a casual relationship and she was willing to wait for you to choose her. I don’t see that as confidence myself but its opposite, and I don’t think it’s necessarily the case that all is rosy in this situation either.
However, I don’t know these women and you do. If the two of you have turned it around, that’s good.
But I should like to point out to the women here – it is extremely, extremely exceptional so please don’t go imagining that this is your happy ending. In fact this is probably THE exception on BR so don’t go looking for your situation to be the exception as well. See this site for a different perspective, which I used to think was too harsh but agree with these days:
To be honest I don’t think there would be that much difference in out relationship if my girlfriend showed more of the traits mentioned in this article. Yes, she can be ‘a woman’ at times but I know she tries hard not to be the moany, emotional girlfriend.
Darren:
“Yes, she can be ‘a woman’ at times but I know she tries hard not to be the moany, emotional girlfriend.”
Are you for real! Sounds like the article has it spot: you cheat and get to keep the relationship and she, an innocent party, gets to try “really hard” for the rest of her life not to upset you by being (‘a woman’) emotional about it!
And also spot on in that the tables are turned onto the innocent party because the issue stops being about how her trust and security was annihilated by the cheater but instead becomes more about her ‘failure to forgive’ -or about how hard she’s trying to. But your a lucky man Darren, as you say, cos *she’s* a wee honey who tries really, really hard not to cause you any needless irritation or discomfort by suppressing (as well as she can for a woman!) how pissed off she really is that you shat upon her trust. That’s big of you Darren (maybe go read the article again; the point seems lost on you.)
Darren,
The reason I stayed was because I hoped he felt the same way as you did. Alas, we aren’t talking about people who have the slightest twinge of conscience, and for them it doesn’t matter who gets hurt or how badly as long as they get what they want. They truly don’t care.
The hardest thing for ‘newbies’ to wrap their head around is that we aren’t dealing with full fledged humans here. Something crucial is missing in them, which makes them the most toxic people on earth.
But I’m glad you’re a nice guy…..gives us hope!
To Epfalent,
You sound like you’re on the right track. Try to catch up with your girlfriends too.
Good for you!
I don’t think sorry means anything if you have been repeatedly hurt, over and over again. Sorry is a word that is used to make the perpetrator feel better about themselves, to take away the guilt they feel.
My on / off asshole has said sorry over a thousand times, for cheating, for manipulating me, for lying to me, for putting me down. Always promising changes. Nothing ever materialised. And if once upon a time sorry meant something, after 3 years of emotional abuse and let down, sorry is what it is, a word. How can one word take away all that pain, emotional memory, attachment, pain? Only we can be sorry that we let someone that could cause us so much pain repeatedly into our lives.
Recently, my ex really upped his game. I got love letters, poems, promises of a future together, requests to never leave him, a billion I love you’s, again, promises to change his ways. Then I returned, and within a week he didn’t want to be with me anymore. His text to me said ‘im sorry, I just don’t feel the same anymore’ and ‘im sorry, why do you put up with this?’. He isn’t sorry. He never will be. I am on day 8 of no contact for the umpteenth time. And surprisingly I feel ok, if not completely betrayed.
His sorry means absolutely nothing. I am sorry to myself for letting this happen again and again.
WOW this one is so revealing, and unexpectedly honest:
‘im sorry, why do you put up with this?’
I’ve asked myself if that’s what he thinks. I bet they are all wondering that! I fell for the EU because he seemed so confident, which is just overcompensation for deep insecurities… These guys at best fear (at worst, know) they have nothing to offer to a woman with standards. They put down women who have standards as high maintenance, arrogant, playing hard to get, frigid — to name only non-vulgar terms. Take your pick, I’ve heard it all. Sour grapes. On the other hand as soon as they have us, they take that as a sign that our standards are not that high… They tell us with words and/or actions they are no good. When they manage down expectations, insist on casual, weasel out of promises, hide us from family, blame or diss exes, keep us as one of several options, sucker us into trying to be the exception, offer empty apologies, etc. all that insensitivity is like insurance policy. When we’re still sticking around, they do begin to wonder (once they’ve hurt us, it is a legitimate question to ask).
Yep. On of my ‘off’spells with the EUM I decided I’d be smart to start dating other men. I had one date with this guy who seemed nice but I didn’t know him well. On our one and only lunch date he talked about how he liked to use porn most nights – and wanted to know if I enjoyed sex for the sake of enjoying sex or if I needed the emotional stuff first – he was more graphic than that tho! – I told him I didn’t like having sex with men I didn’t yet feel bonded with or comfortable with emotionally – he quippped with me calling me “frosty knickers”.
When he realised I thought his comment rude and uncalled for he tried to be apologetic or at least to say he was kidding (he wasn’t kidding, was chancing his arm! – or other appendage further south of arm) but damage was done – tosser.
So, I gave up my dating other men venture at that and trotted – frosty knickers and all – right on back to the comfort of my EUM (to be defrosted!)
American who loves this site and finds it very helpful, here.
I’m trying to keep up with the British terms, though, and was wondering if someone could please tell me what “chancing one’s arm” means. I’ve tried to get it through context, but I just don’t understand what it means.
Thanks, and stay strong!
It just means taking a chance.
My story, exactly…..I fell for it more than once. As soon as he had me “back”, I was on the back-burner again.
I stopped accepting his apologies, and made it absolutely clear that they would do no good now because I had nothing for him but resentment. Unbelievably, he kept trying (not very hard, mind you). They say they are sorry for one of the following reasons:
1) they HATE rejection – and never like to turn lose of dependable emergency-back-up supply
2) they realize how risky it is to have someone you dated hate your guts – a tarnished reputation won’t get them what they want, and they genuinely like to be seen as nice, stand-up guys
3) as Nat said, they don’t have to feel guilty – or accountable – see, everybody’s okay….no harm done….
It’s never because they value you and want you back.
Don’t roll back and invalidate your decision. Don’t apologize for having a limit and self respect! Thank you ! Thank you! Its exactly what I needed!
I’m glad you wrote this article now. I’ve fallen pray to my “Magical Thinking” more times than I’d like to remember – thinking that when the AC apologized, it meant he SAW what he did and understood it as well. Wrong every time. He was always in a hurry – always giving me crap for being “mean” and not accepting his apology. There was never sincerity nor empathy in any of it. And I was so eager to jump back on the fake relationship express, that I didnt really see it.
For the first time I am honestly glad he is leaving me alone. For once, for him, it will be the right thing to do.
A number of writers have stated that when the AC’s finally leave you alone, you know that it’s dawned on them that you will no longer take their BS. I agree with that. I think once the AC’s realize that you have a back bone and you are going to use it, being with you becomes work and suddenly the attraction vanishes.
This happened with my ex AC. I always felt on some level,deep down, that he wanted me to be needy, in fact now that I have some distance, I realize that he needed me to be needy….This is what gave him a sense meaning. He had a slew of female friends that would always call him for advice and who he was always helping out.
He presented such mix messages, admired me for my education, job and intelligence, but showed his support by trying to control what I was doing….like trying to put me on a study schedule when I was preparing for an exam…as if I was a child. I love school, always have and have two advanced degrees…no one needs to ensure I will study….I was doing all this before I met him.
Once I called him on this behavior, which I felt was inappropriate and controlling and he knew I would not budge, he quickly lost interest and started focusing his attention on a few women at work, that were always in crisis and who he was more than happy to help….
My “loss” is their gain….their welcome to him…i
If I have to be weak and helpless in order for him to feel strong..I’d rather be on my own…as far as I’m concerned I dodged a bullet…flush!!
“If I have to be weak and helpless in order for him to feel strong..I’d rather be on my own…as far as I’m concerned I dodged a bullet…flush!!”
Yes lilylee! I too feel as though my xAC needed someone who was weak and helpless, and in the first few months he got it. I was depressed when I met him, so in the beginning he had it really easy. I gave him attention and ego stroking like no other woman could! But as I got a little more demanding of him, asking him to step up to the plate, he began to back off. He knew it was work, and with so many other women with self esteem issues why should he stick around with me when he can go find someone else to stroke his ego in a blink of an eye? Flush!
So…needed this today. Just had the weekend from hell trying to sort out all of these red flags slapping me in the face and my husband thinks that sorry is enough for (during the worst month) spending over 4 hours and 52 calls on the phone with another woman without me knowing. Sucks going from having what you think is a loving trustworthy husband to this!! I am holding firm to his need to move out for a period of time while we work on this.
Bewildered, so sorry to hear this, been there exactly. You’ll probably be even more bewildered when I tell you that two and a half years after the fact, it’s actually funny that my ex went over the 1000 min/per month cell phone plan by so many minutes that he rang up a couple of hundreds of dollars of per minute charges, which were posted to our joint mobile account!!! 😀 Honest, I’m cracking up as I type this — how far gone do you have to be to do something like that?! I do remember how gutwrenching it was at the time though. Just need some time to readjust.
I’m so sorry, Bewildered. Infidelity is the biggest kick in the teeth as there could possibly be, and hurts on levels we didn’t know we had. As EU as he was, I had NO idea he was doing that. In that moment, you really begin to realize that everything you thought was a lie.
Feel for you.
oh, bewildered, stay firm! once i had all i needed, i asked my husband to leave (during a marriage counseling session actually, and the therapist backed me up). the next few months were a dizzying nightmare of pain and grief. his “sorry”s lasted for a couple of weeks, until he realized how incredibly angry i was about his infidelity and his treatment of me over the years.
definitely have him move out while you get some time to think. if this boundary is important to you, he needs to know you are serious. take all the time and space you need to make good decisions.
i question my decisions all the time, though his continued nasty and mean behavior, and daily life and my kids and all, reinforce every day that i made the right choice. it is hard to hold on. stay strong.
Bewildered,
Even after you caught him on the site, he is still in contact with other women. Hon, this man is showing you he no longer values the marriage, do you really think he wants to work things out? How can you trust him again?
I made him call her and end it (ooohhhh the look on his face). I am not stupid and I know that if you have to talk to someone 10 times a day you can’t just go to not talking anymore – I just won’t know about it anymore. He looks me right in the eye and tells me he sees no problem with it. Forgetting about me…in examining the phone records he has disappointed our kids on several occassions. Not the nicest feeling in the world to think at 44 this is your marriage. That’s the thing…I won’t ever trust him fully again.
BR SURVEY……How many married people think its ok for one spouse to call a member of the opposite sex and talk sometimes 10 times a day – at the very least check in morning and night? to call her from our vacation and when he is away at a conference talk to her for 40 minutes and his family for 10 minutes?
Not that this is anyway near payback for what he thinks is normal married behavior……but he needs to learn a lesson right…I took it upon myself to cancelled/return this really frivious item he wanted badly and I am making him use the money to stay at the Residence Inn for a full week. Any other ideas/suggestions would be appreciated.
Bewildered, I suppose you need to ask yourself if this is what you can settle for from your relationship for the rest of your life:
“That’s the thing…I won’t ever trust him fully again.”
It’s truly astonishing that your husband does not think what he has done constitutes ‘infidelity’. What does he think it is (or trying to get you to think it is)? Platonic friendship?… if it’s all so innocent, and platonic, why wasn’t she invited to tea? What on earth does he think ‘fidelity’ means?
Looks like you’ve got a task on your hands trying to get a proper sorry from a man who thinks he’s gor nothing much to be sorry about. You need time away from him to digest all of this and to think clearly… is a week enough? You may want to think aboout talking to this woman yourself – you may find ‘platonic’ doesn’t align with her experience. I had a thing with an MM years ago and when his wife found out he told her it was platonic – it was anything but! She busted a gut trying to get the truth out of him; I am not convinced you are anywhere near the truth yet.
You may have seen the link to the article Grace posted somewhere above (I thought it made interesting reading); if not here it is again in case you find it helpful:
All the best.
@bewildered:
I fully understand that reality isn’t always black and white, but when you are trying to understand the relationship you’re in, it is or should be. I couldn’t have thought or done some specific decisions without this site, without the knowledge I’m not alone, or without the insights brought by people here. But, what I am trying to say, when you àre here, reading these blogposts, scrolling throught the comments and the support given, trying to get some clear vision of the situation you are in, does the fact you’re doing just that not mean that the feedback you need and deserve from your man, is lacking ?
And if it’s lacking, is that not a very basic red flag through it all ?
Bewildered, I feel for you, I have had many occasions where I’ve experienced similar circumstances, and when things don’t add up, the explanations (read: excuses) , more so, they only confuse you, something isn’t balanced. And confusion is not love. Plain and simple. Understanding and true conversation and discussions without throwing more questions but offering insights in one’s mind, that is love.
You are giving him he energy you need for yourself. To choose for yourself and your dignity. The energy you need to build up – I believe this has a lot to do with energy aswell as insight – the probably inevatible fact that this has no future and you have to opt out, you are giving away by pondering.
If this situation has you doubting all sorts of things, then your relationship is not equal. If you think you can’t deal with facing his actions, try dealing with the fact that you’re missing out on something much more important than him. You and the time you’ve spent on you.
It’s the most precious time you’ll ever get to spend and you (and many of us) are waisting just that.
I completely agree with this post. There are so many little things to look out for when going through a break up, it’s like a mind field. I was dumped then badgered to be friends with the expectation that I just get over things and act “normal”. It was like “look we were dating and saving to move out but now I’ve decided we are friends, now get on board please chop, chop” Then when I started NC for my own sanity and because I finally started to get that this guy was a loser, he continued to badger me at work to be friends, then to be civil to each other etc. Just to note I was extremely civil and im very proud of how I managed to handle a very uncomfortable situation, having to see him each day at work and grieve. Basically I just kept to myself, tried to keep as much distance as possible, worked hard and fell apart when I got home 🙂
I don’t know about you but if I dumped someone I had to work with and that person kept their distance and didn’t cause any issues, id be thinking dream scenario.
This then lead to him trying all sorts of tactics, showing anger, fits of being p*ssed off, then trying to be nice, trying to get in my face, taking away his family, trying to be loud, being rude to my friends…you name it. This then lead to him playing the victim “she won’t even talk to me everyone” Notice how everything is somehow about him? What I was actually doing was grieving and hard, I was devastated and trying to move forwards and someone keep my job.
I gave him chances at being my partner, he blew it, I can him chances, 3 in fact at being friends and he blew it.
His apologies were again all about his discomfort hurry up and be my friend or forgive me because people are watching. My NC and trying to move on became all about his discomfort. I’ve never met anyone before like him and I hope I never do again. I did forgive him but not for him for myself and it was a year later when I was ready. I sent one email with about two lines, forgiving him and wishing him and his family well. He took that as a sign that he could hit the reset button and tried to force a friendship which again I ignored. Forgiveness doesn’t mean you have to be friends or even like the person, it means your letting go of all the hatred. I had no intention of allowing him back in my life in any capacity, I don’t like him, it’s that simple don’t let them trick u into thinking you have to be friends. He has moved onto another role now, one week ago, no goodbye just gone. I think he felt that gave him the one up of course it doesn’t, im glad he left without making a fuss or trying to give me one last dig and mostly im glad his gone 🙂
Fantastic read!
I have so experienced a relationship with a boundary-smashing tosspot, for who ‘Sorry’ was so easy to say, but impossible to feel.
I felt hurt and confused more than I didn’t, and, looking back, I’m surprised I lasted as long as I did.
The relationship ended with him calling me a bitch and biting my face, enough to leave three holes in it.
I had an email from him weeks after the event, saying ‘Sorry!’
I’m sorry. I’m sorry I didn’t have any self esteem and I didn’t dump the arsehole as soon as I suspected he was the worm that he was.
I see him almost every week still. He works in the same building as me.
He is as arrogant and (not) sorry as ever.
Oh, and always surrounded by a gaggle of adoring women.
rachel, he did WHAT???!?!? And said “sorry” via e-mail???!?!? And women actually like this….. THING?
What a motherf***ing scumbag. He should be in a prison cell, not outside with the rest of us civilized people & working a regular job. Savage ass animal of a scumbag. Angry FOR you. 😐 Glad you came to your senses and left for good.
Omg did this hit home with me. My ex did just that. Begged for forgiveness for his disappearing act. Said all the right things but it was totally about making himself feel better and reset!! Natalie you are so spot on with all your articles I think they should make you mandatory reading for all woman!!
This was an eye opener. Thanks!
I have now taken to copy and pasting some crucial quotes from your blogs on to my computer and will continue to use this as inspiration in my MM recovery effort. He has done horrible stuff including public humilliation and I have forgiven him. Of course he said he would never do that again because it almost ruined MY life. But I am always still afraid he will do something again now that I have ended things with him. This perspective is good, I can say OK but I just don’t want it in my life any more. NO RESET BUTTON
I used to say sorry to my ex after he’d spoken to me like something a dog had left on the pavement.
In fact I used to drive to his place for 80 minutes for the pleasure. He ha da knack of making me feel sooooo guilty, when i hadnt really done much if anything wrong.
His double standards for what i coud/couldn’t do compared to him were so hypocritical.
It’ scary how I thought I had it all so together before I met him and could handle any shitty situation like this…. but the deep psychological need to please is obviously far too embeded. I guess it was keeping the drama alive and not being able to cope with ending the relationship.
He once grilled me for a whole day (yes a whole day -on a sunday leaving his 13 year old Son to fend for himself) about a short liaison I had with a guy whilst he had dissapeared on me (back to his wife) for weeks. Never mind the fact that he had gone back to his wife etc etc.
1 rule for me 1 rule for the EUM.
I ended up continuously saying sorry to keep the relationship going.
The word “sorry” is as over-used as the words “love” & “friend”. When you hear “sorry”, remember that, especially if “sorry” isn’t backed up with TRUE actions.
Yes, he’s as chipper as ever. And, unbelievably, he’s actually told some of his colleagues what he did. And the funny thing is, I think they must think I deserved it somehow, because as far as I can see, none of them have lost any respect for him.
I don’t get it either. It used to keep me awake at night. I felt so much anger. I don’t anymore. He’s just not someone I can understand, and I’m glad I don’t, because that would make me as messed up as he is.
I’m in a relationship now, with a man who I couldn’t imagine ever even raising his voice, let alone his hand, or god forbid, biting me.
Those days are well and truly over.
xx
I’ve been struggling with a breakup for six months. Constantly, I went back, despite that he proceeded to hook up with his ex for 17 straight days after we broke up. And I kept trying to negotiate, bargain, do no-contact. I’ve been low on self-esteem for several years. Most people don’t understand why- apparently I’ve got the body of a model, and brains to boot. But when it comes to relationships, I let people walk all over me.
Last night, I finally decided it was time to stop relapsing. Recently, I started working on my creative pieces, and putting up facebook statuses that are excerpts from pieces I have written over the years. I’ve been depressed since the beginning of the relationship, and finally, I felt as though I was finding my voice, paying homage to my creativity, and certainly, wasn’t using him as a muse. Invariably, this ex said I was writing about him and insisting that I stop doing so and that I was being disrespectful. In the meantime, I received positive feedback from many friends, as well as encouragement to continue writing and impatient messages when I stopped, after receiving a multitude of emails from him (eleven in 2 days). When he found me on chat on Wednesday, he proceeded to tell me he wanted to be promiscuous, and despite my insistence that I don’t want to have anything to do with any of this, flirting with me and asking me about other guys I may be dating.
This all took a toll. Things became more frustrating when, after initiating a conversation at 2.30 AM Italian time, and ending it at 4.30 AM despite me telling him several times that I was busy, he blamed me for keeping him awake. I had had it, so I told him that this had to stop. So I gave him 24 hours, and told him if he really cares about me, he is going to stop with his obsessive meanness and spare me future contact and block me, if he is going to continue wooing his ex. I used this particular post as proof of how wrong he has been with me by never backing up his actions when he apologizes all the time. He told me that everyone here can back me up, but that I don’t have the right to be offensive and basically, that I have no grounds… I have blocked him from every forum. Whatever… I know you’re right Natalie. It’s taken me long enough, but I’m done. Wish me luck.
He’s Italian?
Can you say po-ssess-ive?
Unless he is George Clooney, that is. But even Clooney has the (Southern European, machismo, etc.) trait of treating women as objects/toys/fungible.
You handled it all very well. Good for you!
Yes, he is Italian. And I’m South Asian. I don’t understand being told on one hand that I am stifling someone’s freedom when I felt stifled when continually asked to describe previous boyfriends, and then being told that I don’t have the right to know anything about him and what he’s doing. Every time I’ve walked away- once for an entire 6 week period, he’d come back, not to be with me again, but still, hovering. I’ve screamed at him once, and he told me that he lost a lot of respect for me. There’s an excuse for every time he cheated. I’m so tired and depressed about this situation. The only means by which he will walk away is by telling me things that make me feel as though i’m the one who’s doing something wrong.