One of the issues frequently discussed and debated in dating and relationships is the whole issue of trying to remain friends with your ex. I’ve written about it so many times over the years, yet I continue to be baffled as to why, particularly with women, we seem to have a hardcore desire to throw ourselves at the front line of pain. As I read through the comments on Facebook over the weekend, I felt compelled to revisit the subject and remind you why it is a grave mistake to remain friends with an ex that has mistreated you.
We want to remain friends with our exes, even when they have treated us ‘less than’ with an absence of love, care, trust, and respect because we want to feel valid. We often spend so long feeling invalid that friendship is like the last chance saloon.
We’ve expended emotions and energy on the other person and are heavily invested. Bad enough to feel rejected because they cannot (or refuse to) be and do as we would like them to, but we then convince ourselves that if we don’t continue being a part of their lives after the breakup, we’ll feel even more rejected and invalid because we’re not even ‘good enough’ to be kept around on the periphery zone as a friend.
It’s not just about feeling valid, though, that will have you itching to offer or take the hand of friendship with your ex. It’s hoping that they’ll miss you enough to come crawling back on their hands and knees and beg to be taken back.
Often, it’s wanting to be there on some terms rather than no terms. It’s trying to be the Good Girl (or the Good Guy) because you don’t want to seem like you’re being ‘immature’. Sometimes it’s willingness to accept a downgrade because you think you can shag your way back up to being the girlfriend/boyfriend. It’s wanting to keep tabs on them and to have a hand in their lives.
Remaining friends with your ex, aside from being some sort of validation of your worthiness, can appear to make the process of letting go somewhat less painful. Call it putting off the inevitable.
However, when someone has treated you with an absence of love, care, trust, and respect, attempting to remain their friend in any capacity is a grave mistake that those who attempt it learn about all too quickly.
When you choose to remain friends with someone who didn’t treat you well, you actually validate whatever negative ideas they have about you plus it’s like giving them a Get Out of Assclown Jail Free Card.
When you choose to remain friends with someone who didn’t treat you well, you actually validate whatever negative ideas that they have about you plus it’s like giving them a Get Out of Assclown Jail Free Card.
You see, in life, there are universal societal norms that exist whether you live in a big city, tiny town, little village or a mud hut in the middle of a jungle and it’s this:
When we break up with someone, if we really have treated them badly, they will not want to be our friend. If they do offer or accept the hand of friendship, then it means ‘I’m Not That Bad. After all, I’m good enough to be considered a friend’.
In the hands of someone who has at best taken advantage of you and at its worst, abused you, remaining their friend screams ‘I DON’T RESPECT MYSELF ENOUGH‘.
Whatever deluded ideas your ex has about their reasons for not treating you decently in the relationship, you just legitimised themby being friends.
Your ex just got off scot-free, and should you ever find yourself in the position of telling them all about themselves, some will have no shame in reminding you that you either offered or accepted the hand of friendship.
Life requires consequences. It is the only way we learn from our actions and get to connect the dots with what results. If more assclowns experienced consequences, they’d feel enough of a negative impact to start addressing their issues.
If the consequence that you create for someone after they have used you up in a relationship is to not only offer or take the hand of friendship, but to continue to be there for a shag, an ego stroke, or a shoulder to lean on, hanging around, waiting for scraps of attention and behaving like a dutiful friend, the only ‘consequence’ that they are learning is that they can continue to reap the fringe benefits of your misguided affections. There are certainly no negative consequences.
Let me say as I’ve said many times before: If someone didn’t treat you with love, care, trust, and respect in the relationship, you can be damn sure that they will not make a friend of any reasonable level once you’re out. The same person that doesn’t give a damn about your feelings isn’t going to give a hoot when it’s over. They’re not thinking about you; they’re thinking about them.
Have some self-respect because trying to be friends with someone who has little or no respect for you will rob you of your dignity. That’s you robbing you, not them.
Every.Single.Time you play happy clapper friends with an ex that mistreated you, you’re saying I love you more than I love myself and you didn’t actually treat me as badly as you know or I know you did, because if you did, there’s no way in hell I should be giving you the time of day let alone anything else. That doesn’t actually mean that what they did didn’t happen, but it’s you that’s watering it down by trying to massage your ego with friendship. You’re marginalising yourself and you’re also marginalising what you experienced. You want them to have even an iota of an idea of what they have put you through? Cut.Them.Off. Let them miss out on you. Let them go and mess with someone else.
It is not your job to fix/heal/help or teach them a lesson so that you get to be right and validated.
In life, when it comes to breaking up, we all have narcissistic tendencies. We want to feel less rejected or feel like less of an asshole. But it’s best to keep your ego in check because if you let these desires overwhelm and hijack you, you will make friends with the wolf or if you’re the assclown, ‘friendship fake’ to make yourself feel less of a creep.
If you broke up with someone because they couldn’t give you the relationship you want and they treated you without love, care, trust, and respect, your only option is to distance yourself from them so that you can grieve the relationship and move on. Don’t try to be their friend so you can validate yourself and be ‘right’ because you’re doing it at the expense of your self-respect.
Use No Contact for several months and put a complete focus on you, and if after you have genuinely spent 100% of your efforts distancing yourself from the source of your pain and doing everything to let go of the relationship, heal, and move on, you still feel a burning desire to be their friend, go ahead and put your hand in the fire. Trust me when I say it will still burn, but it’ll be a lesson learned.
There is another universal relationship norm that many people believe in which is that you should attempt to be friends with your ex. What is forgotten is that you should only attempt to be friends with an ex that 1) treated you well and 2) when enough time has passed and you have both gotten over the loss of the relationship. Let me assure you, for those of you hankering for friendship with people who didn’t treat you well, this is not you and it would serve you well to remember how poorly you were treated instead of trying to magic up a friendship out of thin air.
I’m in the process of separating from my husband of 22 years, and although I am well past the grieving stage and am eager to move on with my life, I’m wondering how to handle just this part of the process because we have two children (15 and 11) and have to remain in contact to share parenting issues.
Part of the problem is that he turns to me for decisions he really should be making himself (I “mothered” him for our entire marriage and am drained), and is also very unpredictable and immature emotionally, so we wind up having a lot more contact than I want.
I want to be friendly without being friends so that my kids see an example of two (ostensibly) adults who might not be able to live together but are a united front when it comes to raising their children. Who might not love each other, but love their children and can be kind enough to each other in order to make their kids’ lives pleasant.
His threats of my winding up broke (I’ve been a homemaker for all of the time I’ve been a parent, but have a piddling income as a freelancer) only serve to piss me off, yet he tells me that his therapist has said that anger is a natural part of the process and that I should be patient with him. My feeling is that he can take his anger and put it where the sun doesn’t shine. I am working very hard to establish boundaries again (I had had my expectations managed down to nil, so it’s like learning a new skill), and I told him that while it may be natural to be angry, he wasn’t permitted to take it out on me. This upsets him greatly, but I am trying to stick to my guns.
Any thoughts on when you CAN’T go NC?
Goreygal
on 15/11/2010 at 7:46 pm
Hi
You can go NC in every way that counts for you. Separate out the children related issues (when he picks them up, schooling, maintenance etc) and refuse to engage with him on any other level. When he starts going on about his therapist etc smile sweetly and make an excuse to leave / close the door etc. As long as you engage in the dynamic he will continue to demand engagement from you. He is the father of your children but you have no reason/need to have a relationship with him outside the context. You can be cordial and polite but you do not need to be his “friend”.
Very well said! This stops the line being blurred by manipulation of the children. He has to learn to stand on his own two feet.
Goreygal
on 16/11/2010 at 10:49 pm
I’m learning from you Natalie 🙂
lynette
on 16/11/2010 at 3:50 am
@no longer waiting around, i am in such a similar situation to yours. i think when kids are involved, if you can remain friends, acknowledging the beautiful kids you have created together (no matter how imbalanced the care of them has been), you give your children the gift of knowing that your love for them transcends the adult issues that are the marriage.
i have been separated for three months from a man who treated me very badly, who was a neglectful father at best, and with whom i am incredibly angry at the moment. yet i do still wish to have those shared moments to celebrate our children’s special moments, even our children’s ordinary moments. he is their father and i still care for him.
i am working amazingly hard at setting boundaries and it is really challenging to set the right ones. he has a tendency to stick the kids in the middle. i am trying to take the high road, not because i want validation for myself, but because i want my kids to believe me when i tell them that the ending of our marriage is not their fault.
good luck to you — visit my blog if you have a chance, you will see what i mean 🙂
Try this post and I will also email you the post on it from The No Contact Rule support email.
Kim in Minn
on 15/11/2010 at 5:22 pm
Why does it hurt when you know darn well (deep down) that it wasn’t any good anyway? You know you spent most of the relationship waiting — waiting for him to come to his senses, waiting for it get better. Still when it ends – even if you are the one to close the door – it hurts.
MH
on 15/11/2010 at 7:37 pm
Kim,
I have been wondering the same question.
Why can’t I listen to my logical side of my brain that tells me I am better off. I need to have faith that there is better out there because what he was giving me was crumbs and I told him that.
I am happier now because I don’t have to wait around anymore because I ended that. Yet I am still idealizing things.
I keep telling myself lately, he is just one guy in the world there are plenty of more, let go of the idea that he was the last chance of love, or the closest I have come to love. There is going to be more options stop thinking he is the last option.
MH, as I said to Kim you’re only human and you’re grieving the loss of the relationship. Let go of the idea that he was your one and only because if you hold on to that, you will not let go of the emotions attached to the relationship. People lose loved ones through death and live to love again. If they can, you can.
MH
on 16/11/2010 at 9:46 pm
MH, as I said to Kim you’re only
human and you’re grieving the
loss of the relationship. Let go of
the idea that he was your one
and only because if you hold
on to that, you will not let
go of the emotions attached
to the relationship.
People lose loved ones through death and live to love again. If they can, you can.
NML,
This is what I struggle with the most. We had
such a close friendship. I thought at times he
really cared for me. More than any of my past
boyfriends because he never verbally or
physically abused me like all my boyfriends did.
He didn’t blame me for things. All my exe’s blamed me for everything. I wanted us to fall
in love even though I didn’t have that strong of
feelings for him. I wanted it to happen because I
thought he was the closest I have ever been to
love. Even though we never told each other
we loved each other. Outsiders and my friends told me we loved each other as friends I said I don’t think so, and they said trust me we can see it and if you don’t see it your a fool. Either way I said he didn’t treat me well enough and this is all that matters.
He couldn’t give me what I wanted which was the issue between us and he emotionally abused me by pulling the EU crap.
This is why I ended the close friendship and the intimacy.
I barely have contact with him and I have let go of everything that really made us friends in general. I am not trying to be friends with him either.
In my mind, I haven’t let go of the fear (which is just a feeling) that he was the last guy that I will ever get to experience that closeness with. I am allowing myself to live that self-fulfilling prophecy that all I will ever attract is Boyfriends that are Assclowns and Male Friends that are Emotionally Unavailable. I feel this way because I haven’t been able to let go of the very thing you are suggesting that I let go. I want to but because I have never dated a nice guy or even met one I can’t get my head wrapped around that they exist. I do say lots of positive affirmations to myself to believe in it but when I examine my thoughts it is still in there as you know because I said it here and you pointed it out. See Kim brought up her thought and I happened to share the same thought.
BY ALL MEANS I DON’T HOPE FOR HIM BACK. I JUST BELIEVE I HAD MY LAST CLOSE RELATIONSHIP.
I know I deserve and want better I just fear that I won’t attract it or find it. I fear that I have to settle in order to achieve that decent guy. Even though you have written posts on these very topics they are still my fears I am trying to work out because of your very posts. I think I would rather be alone than have to settle on some average guy.
Please note that when I was hanging with my last EUM numerous girls and friends of mine asked continuosly why I wasn’t attracted to him and they listed all his good qualities. I try not to focus on those things because like you say they don’t hold weight when it comes to substantial relationship qualities.
Bottom line I am working on this issue right now and I want to let go of it because like you say it keeps me emotionally tied to him.
I usually work through my issues by reading your posts or books, or other articles to gain insight into my issues. This is my latest and I am unsure how to get the final latches off of this issue. I think it is what is keeping me stuck on him.
I think I have come to terms that he is not healthy for me but Iam almost thinking I am better off in life alone even though this is not what I want. It makes me go into fight mode to figure out why I am allowing myself to stay shackled to the idea that he was my last close relationship thus keeping me emotionally tied to him dreamwise that is. However, when I do talk to him or think about our time together I am mostly reminded of his eum ways.
thanks Nat
This is my next big challenge. I have gotten over many other hurtles so there is a good chance I can get over this one. I really do want to get past this and meet someone good for me to find out what real love is all about.
After I read the books I have bought recently mr unavailable I want to purchase the two books on boundaries and values you have I think those will help.
WastedLove
on 23/11/2010 at 9:34 am
@MH
You voiced my own feelings when you said “I JUST BELIEVE I HAD MY LAST CLOSE RELATIONSHIP.
I know I deserve and want better I just fear that I won’t attract it or find it…. I think I would rather be alone than have to settle on some average guy. ”
I am with you 100% on this. How do we get over thinking like this? Where are all these wonderful, non-AC guys? What if they don’t exist? It’s mainly because I believe I will be celibate the rest of my life that I cannot stop sleeping with my “ex”. It’s the absolute finality of it — once I stop sleeping with him, that is it, the end of my sex life, forever. Who can blame me for wanting “just one last” session with him?
Hi Kim in Minn. It hurts because it’s supposed to. You’ve expended time, energy, and emotions and now you’re letting go – that hurts. It hurts because you’re disappointed and may be feeling rejected. It doesn’t matter who closes the door – it hurts.
Kim in Minn
on 17/11/2010 at 3:02 pm
Just have to get through it and avoid the thinking maybe it wasn’t so bad, maybe I’m over-reacting, maybe I expect too much, maybe he really loves me but can’t show it. GAG! I married my ex-husband despite many red flags. I foolishly believed that everything would be great once we were married and he settled into it. I foolishly gave him way too many chances and I was doing the same thing with the man I am ending a (half baked) relationship with now. I start thinking “well he wasn’t mean…” because he wasn’t mean as in hitting or name calling. Both men are self-centered though and do their own thing while I wait for time and attention. Blech…! I will always be waiting if I stick with this. I just realized also that neither of these guys are ever happy. Not happy about anything, rarely have belly laughs or get joy from anything. Anyone else see that with an EUM? That they are not happy or able to experience joy?
MH
on 17/11/2010 at 5:14 pm
HI KIM in MINN,
Just have to get through it and avoid the thinking maybe it wasn’t so bad, maybe I’m over-reacting, maybe I expect too much, maybe he really loves me but can’t show it. GAG
Wow I am going through the same phases as you.
I just was wondering the same thing as you “am I exaggerating that it was that bad, maybe I am the problem.
I am doing that thing Natalie mentions about looking for self blame in a sense.
When she posted back to me that I am treating him like my one and only that is my issue in a nutshell. Him and I weren’t together but because he wasn’t abusive physically or verbally I think that was the closest I will ever get to love is someone being somewhat nice to me.
I think of my life like a movie and the tittle is called
“That was it” staring me. Synopsis: She almost made it to love but that is not in the cards for her. Some people are just not meant for love and being alone isn’t the worst thing in the world as she learned because being abused is worst. So after her last chance of love she blew it by not putting up with the last man that she could have had, she’s all alone. The end!
Sorry for the sarcasm but that is how I have been looking at things and your post help me get it out there.
I am relating so much to your thinking right now.
We need another frame of mind to think from obviously. I am sure due for renovation of the mind.
ana
on 15/11/2010 at 6:22 pm
heeey ladies!
hmmm so i have a little crisis here… one of my best friends dated this guy and now it’s over (we hope) and it’s a “cry all day, stay in bed, i can’t do without him” situation. It’s pretty bad, but i i know this is never easy…
anyway, I was trying to explain some of the things a learned here on nat’s blog and from the book and you comments but it’s kind of hard cause I’m still learning and realising myself…
it was a boy meets girl, everything was good at the beggining, both happy and in love, he wanted to spend all the time with her and then after 2 months the boy starts backing away little by little… Girl is confused, knows something isn’t right, blames herself, we all tell her that she has to talk to him… and after a month and a half of this comes the big talk, when he couldn’t avoid it anymore… anyway, the boy admited, that there was no more “feeling” for him and that he had decided he wanted out weeks before. But he wanted to take the easy way out, he thought he could just call her less, meet with her less often and she would “get the message”.
I’m trying to tell her, that only emotionally unavaliable men do this kind of stuff and that she’s better off without him and that she better focus on herself… but she’s saying that all the guys are like that. she’s basically saying that “a guy knows when he no longer considers you to be the one for him, he just won’t share that information with you.”, and that 99% of guys are like that, period.
And since i have a looong way to go before I’m recognize Mr. Unavaliables and Assclown behaviour, I’m asking you, is this guy a Mr. Unavaliable?? Is this guy an Assclown.??? or is this just normal, you can’t make a guy be with you.
I think it would help her if she saw it written down and you opinion about this. This site was really a turning point for me and i’m doing no contact for 6 months, yeeey, but i still have a lot to learn.
thanks for your answers ladies. you’re an instipation, and Natalie is a real hero for me:)))
Ana,
this guy is an assclown and yes, emotionally unavailable in my opinion. Why? Because he attempted to do the “back handed” breakup. He began to treat your friend poorly, hoping that she would have enough self-respect to find it unacceptable and then SHE would be the one to end it. This is so he doesn’t have to feel like the “bad’ guy-although by doing this, he has made himself be the bad guy.
Worse, he admitted to doing this. It is hard enough to be rejected without someone essentially saying that you were too stupid to not get the “message” and that there must be something wrong with you because you were obviously being mistreated and you didn’t do anything about it. So, he had to step in and finally TELL her his real feelings-which is what he SHOULD have done from the very start.
Its a very passive-aggressive move and usually done by emotionally unavailable men. They don’t want to take responsiblity for any part of a relationship-including ending it, or the responsibility of breaking a heart. Nobody likes to end a relationship with someone and cause them hurt, but its totally selfish to drag it out and to create further pain by forcing the other person to do it. Its controlling, to say the least.
He may have just realized that she wasnt the one for him, but based on what you said, its probably a pattern of his-getting involved with women too quickly, the “whirlwind” romance in the beginning-assclowns are in love with falling in love and once they’ve “conquered” the woman and got her attached-they tire and bore of it because it means actually having to settle down into relationship mode. Then they tend to turn around and “love” the women that DONT end up falling for them. Its very backwards.
This is just my opinion but your girlfriend is better off.
ana
on 15/11/2010 at 9:50 pm
lisa, thanks a lot!!!!!!!:)
she read it! i agree with you, she just had to see it from somebody else, not just her girlfrends… now she’s in a “maybe he’s gonna change, grow up” mood… i hope it won’t last for to long;)
anyway, thank you again, you are so right… these kind of guys just love being in love, when there’s any actual “work” in the terms of a real relationship, the “magic” isn’t there any more… heh, i do have a really good friend with good relationship habits and she always says to us, omg, where do you find these guys??? she wouldn’t touch them with a stick… and i always said ok, we’ve got different taste, but she’ the one in a commited long term relationship and we’re the “poor” girls who always get played, so yeah, she’s got a point! 🙂
lisa,thanks again for these wise words! hugs**
ana
AngelFace
on 16/11/2010 at 2:24 am
Wow, spot on Lisa! Especially your last paragraph. I’ve seen it one toooo many times. But that’s the assclown’s pay back, falling in love with the woman who takes them for a donkey ride…lol
Spot on Grace; sometimes we need to skip all the analysing, especially when it’s pretty clear cut. I would tell my pal that she is at least getting a clear message (more than many of the rest of us here have got!!) even if it was slow in coming.
She will be hurt, of course, but she’ll get over it – if he is EUM/AC – and it sound like he is at least EU, tell her to beware of him turning up again blowing all hot when he thinks she is maybe not an option anymore – that’s when the real trouble starts!!
At this point, though, she does at least know where she stands, and that is way better than being the puppet in the guy’s pushey-pulley game, doing the hokey-cokey dance till your head is in a spin and you don’t know which way is up anymore.
ana
on 15/11/2010 at 10:17 pm
hey grace!
Yeah, he doesn’t want to be with her, i get that. And a guy isn’t a jerk if he wants to break up,I know.
the problem here is that she’s not mad at him for acting the way he did prior to the break-up and she’s saying that she’s still going to hang out with him, wants to be friends bla bla bla… so, if we say, that this way just a decent guy, who wanted to break up, there’s nothing bad about wanting to be friends eventually…
but if this guy was emotionally unavaliable or an assclown (knowing what he was like before the break-up), then it’s really bad for her for wanting to be friends, stay in his life, she’s supposed to get mad and put some boundries and kick him out of her mind for good.
anyway, yeah, he doesn’t want to be with her, but this is not so much about him now, it’s about learning a lesson, if there’s a lesson to be learned here… trying to understand what’s right or wrong behaviour towards other people, what makes them EUMs or assclowns, and better to be avoided, as partners or later friends…
I’m so sorry if I’m babbling here, this blog was a revelation for me, so it’s all a bit new for me and I’m trying to understand it (after years of this kind of guys- all of my boys were major players, with a harem of ex-s). And now when my friend is in this situation we wanna help her see, that maybe it’s not all her “fault” and that life isn’t that unfair and that she has to deal with some issues of herown.
grace, can u please tell me your opinion to, is this guy emotionally unavaliable or an assclown??
thanks a lot ladies, good night! :))))
hugs to all of you*
ana
Grace
on 16/11/2010 at 12:11 pm
ana
So far, from what you said he doesn’t sound TOO bad. There is no good way to break up with someone where they say “yippy doo, ive been dumped. terrific”. He wan’t particularly straightforward but at least he did fess up to what he was doing. However, there is every potential for this to turn nasty IF SHE LETS HIM. If she starts hanging around with him too soon (ie within six months) she could end up being his booty call, or someone he keeps around for a laugh/sympathy/something to do while her heart is breaking.
He has broken up with her, she needs to process the rejection and heartbreak, not start being his friend. And that goes for EUs, ACs and even decent guys.
Grace
on 16/11/2010 at 12:16 pm
actually, scrub the six months. make it 18 months. Or two years. How about never?
I’ve just recently had an ex sneak back in after ten years and it did not end well.
ana
on 16/11/2010 at 1:19 pm
I agree grace, never sounds pretty good!! he does have a tendency to make his exes a booty call, we’ve seen that before, so lets hope she’s not gonna let him.
about you ex sneaking…. mmm let me tell you about my dad, i should be so wise about guys cause I’ve seen him do all the EUM/AC thing to his girlfriends, exes, wifes… he’s never going to change, even after 10 years, 20 years… whenever, he lost everything and everybody, but he still does it… so for some people, there is no hope of changing. I totally understand why you let him in again and I’m sorry it didn’t end well, i hope it wasn’t too hard for you. You are definitely better off without him:).
Natalie, if you have a spare moment, can u PLEASE tell you opinion about this guy?? just, if he’s an EUM, AC, or a decent guy! I’m sorry if I’m being to difficult, we have a girls night in tonight and if i told her what you said it would help massively! i already told her to order your book and read it word by word:))
hugs my ladies! hope you have a good day:))
XX
ana
Nikki
on 15/11/2010 at 9:43 pm
I think Lisa is right on. That exact thing happened to me with the guy I lived with for 7 years. I was the one who had to leave because “he” needed his space and wasn’t sure about us or about loving me anymore. I walked out and felt the guilt of ending it and the sadness of being dumped. It took me years to recover from that and to finally understand that I did the right thing, he was the one who wanted out. But what happens in these cases is that you end up asking yourself whether you did the right thing because you *think* you’re the one who ended it, while in reality they did, you just executed what they wanted to do but didn’t have the courage to do themselves. Many years later I had a second go with the same guy and realized that he was totally controlling, so this behavior is exactly in line with a controling AC/EUM as Lisa pointed out.
I think the key with these guys is not to put up with them pulling back early in the relationship and have a conversation early on when you start noticing their lack of attention. In my recent experience, this brings out their lack of commitment to the relationship and you can both discuss it (sometimes with discomfort and tension) and finally mutually agree that you need to go your separate ways.
But the best thing after that is really to cut contact and rebuild as Natalie so often recommends. No growth can come from being friends with someone who doesn’t want to be with you in the first place. Spend your time with people who really do, your real friends.
PJ
on 15/11/2010 at 11:16 pm
“I walked out and felt the guilt of ending it and the sadness of being dumped.”
So did I.
How interesting. You can be dead sure you’ve got a (passive aggressive) responsibility dodger when you have to do the dumping and be the dumpee at the same time! Which is usually the case with eums. It’s a pretty slick/sick move to avoid it and heap all the responsibility for a relationship and a breakup on someone else isn’t it? It also shows you’ve pretty much been in a relationship with yourself, and holding up way too @#$%^#* much on your own. Dayamn.
Christina
on 16/11/2010 at 6:56 am
“I walked out and felt the guilt of ending it and the sadness of being dumped.”
I am a first time commenter, but a faithful reader. My ex and I were together 3 years, living together, and broke up 1 year ago, but we continued to “be friends” only after a few months after moving out. It wasn’t friends at all, it was sex all the time, dinner, dates, I love you’s, but he *insisted* that we were not together and single. I finally couldn’t take it anymore, and said that we needed to talk about our situation, that I am 30 now, and didn’t want to wait forever for him. He said that he liked the way things were and didn’t want a serious relationship for another 1-2 years(!!!!). I even managed to have sex with him after that. I left his apartment, shattered. I saw my therapist the next day, and she said, it is time to completely cut contact. I wrote him a quick email wishing him luck on his 1-2 years on his own, and that I couldn’t have him in my life. It has been the hardest and worst feeling. Even though he shattered my heart into a million pieces, I still think of him every day, wonder what he thinks about me, etc. He was the first to contact me on my birthday, sent me an email on how much he missed me, thought of me everyday, etc. It has only been a few weeks since I received this email, but I have NOT responded. I deleted it. It has been the hardest thing to do. I feel the guilt of not responding. I feel the lonliness and excruciating pain of having my heart broken. I never thought about it like that until I read your response. That is such an unfair position to be in! I also see now that I was trying to sleep my way back to girlfriend status, and that was because my self-esteem was ripped to shreds. I don’t want a love that feels like this.
Kim in Minn
on 16/11/2010 at 3:25 pm
I know how this feels. The guy told me he didn’t love me and considered me to be a “really good friend” but still texted me, called me, stopped by, fixed things for me and wanted to sleep together. He didn’t me consider me his girlfriend but he wanted to have sex with me. Stupidly I didn’t want to believe what was in front of me. I pretended that it would get better, he’d miss me if I was gone, etc. Heck he actually would text me that he missed me – usually when he was laying in bed at night alone. I have been the queen of denial and lying to myself that a relationship actually existed. It didn’t and yet I answered his calls, let him spend the night at my house. I feel so stupid and mad at myself for waiting around and hoping hoping hoping for something to grow into a beautiful mature comfortable relationship. We are both 50 and I am lonely but finally seeing things for what they really are.
“But what happens in these cases is that you end up asking yourself whether you did the right thing because you *think* you’re the one who ended it, while in reality they did, you just executed what they wanted to do but didn’t have the courage to do themselves.” Very well said Nikki.
You’re also totally right about the pulling back – nip it in the bud, never ignore even if it means the end of the ‘fairy tale’.
jubilee
on 16/11/2010 at 2:21 pm
@Ana
I feel for your friend that is “in bed all day crying” I think sometimes we women give ourlove and trust away too soon and easily. As a result, there is deep felt pain when we are rejected.
Through this blog I saw that I did this myself and gave my trust to the wrong person.I learned that trust is a big deal for me! I was able to find out so much about myself through this awful situation. The biggest lesson I see in your post is that you can’t make anyone realize anything – not even EUM’s or AC’s -no matter how much that info might help, she has to get out of bed and take it on for herself. This blog has been such a huge help to me, all you can do is suggest it to her and hopefully she will read the wealth of knowledge NML has brought us. There is just so much here to help us all!
I think with some of these guys that you just can’t ever really tell their true intentions with you. I have learned so much in the span of 4 months. I can’t stand this AC but I have to say…I am better off WITH this knowledge. I am stronger now from the pain. I am able to see my part in it, but also more clearly and better understand his motivations and they were not good. I also had the unique chance to confirm the worst, and it is sad to learn that indeed the worst was really true.
I look forward to one day putting what I have learned into practice with somone worthy of my love and trust and someone that I can share life’s up and downs beside me.
Hi Ana, it doesn’t actually matter whether he’s emotionally unavailable or not. What he is is uninterested. He overestimated his level of interest and like anyone, he has reserved the right to change his mind even if he’s being a dipstick about it. A decent guy with more respect, empathy, and integrity, would have grown some nuts and ended things properly. Instead he thought he could treat her like shit until she took the hint, which she didn’t. Only Mr Unavailables and assclowns do this type of rinky, dinky bullshit behaviour although emotionally available or not, most people panic at having to get uncomfortable and tell someone they want out. Common decency separates the shady from the Nervous But I’ll Bite The Bullet & Do It Anyway type.
Your friend isn’t stupid because she didn’t take the hint – she just didn’t want to believe that someone who was in love with her had left and been replaced with an asshole.
When you want to breakup with someone, you don’t drop hints by behaving like a dickhead. You speak up.
Your friend is rightly upset and of course right now it hurts and feels like she can’t live without him but she will or at least she’ll have to, because he’s left the building. If she pursues him she’ll show him that he made the right decision.Give her a hug for me
LadyJaye
on 15/11/2010 at 6:48 pm
This really hit home, and to be honest, all of this is kinda hard to swallow becauseme and my ex just started back communicating and being…friends, and our relationship was far from healthy or good.
@LadyJaye Well I’m sure you’ll find out all too soon that the fire still burns! You’re human and you want to believe and see the good in people, but see it in people who demonstrate both with actions and their words that they give a damn about you.
Jasmine
on 15/11/2010 at 7:21 pm
“Whatever deluded ideas they have about their reasons for not treating you decently in the relationship, you just legitimized them. ”
Absolutely. In my case, after an incredibly unnecessarily traumatizing break-up, the narcissistic ex went around to our mutual friends claiming he couldn’t believe I wouldn’t talk to him.
“What really hurts is that she says she never wants to talk to me again” (oh the pain, how can I be so cruel to someone who ripped my heart out). My gfs basically told him, that is one of the consequences to your actions. If you treat someone without love and respect, she will give herself the love and respect that you did not by not being your friend and validating that you are not so bad. He didn’t get it. I was a fool for being in the relationship in the first place, but I don’t have to let him continue to suck the energy out of my life anymore, and he would have: there are a couple of women he used to date that he maintained friendships with, even though he knew they still had unresolved feelings for him. He said he was being kind and mature by being their “friend”, but I believed he got off on the feelings of love, affection, confusion, and sadness (for the loss of their relationship) they re-experienced when they were around him. I remember once, one of his ex’s cancelled a “let’s get drinks and catch-up” meet up because she realized she still had feelings for him and didn’t think it was a good idea. As a real friend, he should have understood, but he was actually disappointed and annoyed with her. Why? Because he doesn’t care about her feelings, her well-being…he was just looking forward to feeding off of the attention she gave him as the “one who got away” and pined over. Gross.
Aimee
on 15/11/2010 at 8:10 pm
Sounds like my exAC – poor girls – I hope they get it and he eventually has some consequences to his atrocious actions! I can count at least 5 of these girls hanging around for my ex, but those are the only ones I know of!
CC
on 16/11/2010 at 3:45 am
I think we dated the same guy Jasmine. Exactly what happened to me. He made me out to be the bad guy for going NC and told everyone I was crazy and also for thinking that he was in any sort of relationship with him. He also OFTEN spoke of ex’s and how he was friends with all of them and additionally in contact with most of them. And there were a lot of ex’s. While he was right about the non-relationship, he had no problem taking all the attention, kissing, while I pined away hoping it would develop into more. I had expressed my feelings for him several times so he knew how I felt but controlled everything we did together so it was not too boyfriendy. Always having me meet him out while he was with friends. The only time we were one on one really was for “lunchs” or if he was trying to win me back. So I finally cut the cord and additionally had to know that he was blaming it all on me for “being crazy”. I only had one friend who confronted him and told him that he was accountable for leading me on, that she knew about all the countless call/texts, the kissing, etc and that he did in fact lead me on… to which he said “I see your point”. But mostly he was just worried about saving face and not looking like the bad guy.
Jasmine
on 18/11/2010 at 3:54 am
@CC I am sorry to hear was an ass he was, its very dissapointing to hope for something, think it’s going somwhere, and then realize he was just passing time.
“I see your point” What an ambiguous way to look like he is somehow accepting some responsibility for your hurt. I also heard “I can see how you would think I am damaged” after completely agreeing with me that he had been an emotional vampire in my life. My ex had also pulled the, “you know I love you, baby” and “you know you are special to me, lady”… my therapist says that people who are telling you what “you know” are doing it because they dont actually want to do any of the things they would need to for you to “know” without them telling you…stay strong!
Jasmine
@Jasmine You’re absolutely right to cut him off. Sucking the life out of you indeed. Let him whine. You know why you’re not bothering with him and really, that’s all that counts.
It’s kind and mature to behave decently in a relationship so that there is a foundation to a possible friendship should the relationship end. It’s lunacy to be friends with someone who has mistreated you. It just says ‘Hit me baby one more time’
Jasmine
on 18/11/2010 at 5:09 am
Thanks NML, I actually just read your entry about getting over them when you thought you were freinds, and I realize that even though I stated we were friends for three years before we dated, that wasn’t a healthy relationship either. As my friend, he was constantly being inappropriately intimate, flirtatious, and overstepping boundaries. I was only able to figure out the timelines after we started dating: he was behaving this way even as he had other girlfriends. Just when I would think it was going somewhere, he would mention he was dating someone. Confused, I would think that I was the one who was somehow reading too much into his communications with me and would start dating available men. That is when he would tell me how dissapointed he was in my choice to date other men, because “what we could have together could be great”. In effect, he was messing with my head. He didn’t want me, but he didnt want me to want anyone else but him. He wasn’t my friend, there was no maturity, and he had no respect for me. But I exaggerated the quality of our “friendship” in my mind so I could excuse alot of his questionable behaviour when we finally did start dating. I was really selling myself on an idea, that he was my “best friend” my “soulmate” and he was happy to let me think so.
Live and learn 🙂
jasmine
Cindy
on 15/11/2010 at 7:27 pm
This article is dead on. Plus, what motivation are they left with to treat you better if you continue being there for them after you have decided that the kind of person they are is not worth your time anymore? It says to them “okay, it didn’t work out but I’m obviously not *that* bad. Obviously, she is too demanding”.
Assclowns and EUM will take whatever it is *you* *allow* them to get, will continue to push for more attention while they know you will stick around and cave in to their ego needs – all without them having to commit to a relationship.
I know because I am smack in the middle of trying to fend my EUM with a stick.
Natalie is right. It is better to distance yourself for a few months and THEN see if there is a friendship if that’s what you want. Don’t do it now while you are still raw and vulnerable to their BS.
allie
on 15/11/2010 at 7:48 pm
The part that is the most EYE OPENER is that if he wasn’t good to you as your boyfriend, what makes us thing that he will be a good friend?
No. being there done that. They are not good friends.
Thanks Allie – we learn the hard way but at least we learn.
Aimee
on 15/11/2010 at 8:13 pm
Don’t do it all – don’t forget what Nat says about putting your hand in the fire – you’ll just get burned!! Whether it’s now, 2 months, 6 months, or 1 year!
Tony
on 07/12/2010 at 1:42 pm
Or even 3 years when I took her back telling me she was over her xe again …I got burned, caught them both cheating, it hurts like hell this time, I work with her, so I see her nearly every day, I say Hi, but she so smug round me, with that smirk on her face, she not even full time with her ex now he’s living with sumone else.
Cindy
on 15/11/2010 at 10:34 pm
Thanks, I agree. After burning my hand over and over….sometimes that might be what it takes. It has taken me 8 months to only BEGIN to move on from my EUM and to actually WANT something better but I had a lot of inner issues with myself that needed to be taken care of first. The weirdest thing of all is seeing how little things make me happy now that I generate by myself WITHOUT him. It is those baby steps that help. I tried “cold turkey” many times but failed. I knew if I just kept going, no matter what, that one day I could get over him. He will never step up and it’s time to open my life to someone else who will.
thanks Cindy! If you give they take, which means if you stop giving, you can’t open yourself up to further abuse and mistreatment. It is too soon if you try to be friends fresh out of a breakup. Period
debra
on 15/11/2010 at 7:53 pm
Natalie – Thank you so much for writing this. I have been folllowing the postings on the recent blogs and seeing many going through this very issue, which is one I am living at the moment. After a very painful non-relationship experience with someone I worked with, I am now in mandatory mediation to try and work out a professional relationship. After months of work on myself and getting rid of denial, illusions and all the crap I had loaded into the relationship, I was left with some very clear notions. Number 1 was that I didn’t want any on going relationship with this person, as he had nothing of value to offer and his “friendship” had only been a means of securing ego massage. But I now find myself forced into actually working on rebuilding some sort of functional business relationship with him. It is ironic that we now have to put more effort into fixing the “relationship” than he ever did during the “relationship”.
It has been a true test of my maturity, my boundaries, my ability to compartmentalize and getting brutally honest with myself. I saw how much of it was wanting and needing validation. I saw how childish my own behaviour becomes when I am deeply hurt and disappointed. I saw so much of my child hood issues played out in public. It has been a humbling and humiliating experience, but one I have grown from and clearly needed. I had wanted and expected so much from this man and he had not wanted to give me any of it, even friendship. Now I am required to be the “good girl” and the mature one and suck it up for the good of work and my other colleagues. I am glad I have done the work I needed to do – I can’t imagine how I would have survived this experience if I hadn’t – and my relationship drama is under control. I had to walk through the rejection. Feel it, cry the tears, accept that all I had hoped for and thought was happening wasn’t. I truly let it go and as a result, can begin to approach what I need to do now from a secure, healthier place. This site has been a big part of that – thanks for that.
Letting go is hard and its human nature to want to hold on and avoid the pain. In the end, though, my self esteem and self respect are better for having done just that. Having those two things in place means I trust myself not to backslide now, give in to his lies and manipulations and fall back into bad patterns. Bite the bullet, accept the rejection and move on to someone who will care for and respect you – namely yourself.
I’m really proud of how you have done the necessary which has forced you out of a comfort zone and forced you to get uncomfortable. Much as I learned through my own painful experiences, so will you and you will come out the other side. Relationships serve to teach us about ourselves. This experience has got you to deal with some very painful and difficult things and in rather an uncomfortable manner. You will be totally over him and you’ll never put yourself through that pain. You’ll be a better person for it because of your willingness to be accountable and not bullshit yourself. You love your job and he’s not worth losing it for and at work., even when we want to jump and howl on the tables in frustration, we must be professional and mature. Lord knows that is hard sometimes. Your relationship and the fallout crossed a lot of boundaries at work. Now those lines are back up. Maybe he will learn something from this too…
((((hugs)))))
Aimee
on 15/11/2010 at 8:05 pm
“but we then convince ourselves that if we do not continue to be a part of their lives after they break up, we’ll feel even more rejected and invalid because we’re not even good enough to be kept around on the periphery zone as a friend. ”
I have to tell you – this has never been my thinking with exs. Maybe a healthy boundry I have had among the unhealthy ones. My ex 22 yrs ago called me a year after our break-up and said “if I was gay, you’d be my friend”. My reply was “why would I want you as a friend, you couldn’t even be my friends when we were lovers”. Please!
The friend card from the men I have been involved with has always been about them – so they could feel ok with their sh*tty behavior and say ‘ see I am not THAT bad, she still wants me as a friend’ HA!! I don’t think so – stroke their ego at the expense of my self-esteem – I don’t think so.
I felt so rejected IN the relationship, I was not sticking around for more bad treatment as a “friend” and to boot watch them flaunt another girl in my face – no thank you!
I have two male friends from the past that I slept with, we were able to stay friends because 1) we were not in love with eachother 2) They were GOOD friends, they were not jerks!
I was/am too good to be their friends. They don’t deserve me and MY friendship!
“because you don’t want to seem like you’re being immature”. I think it takes mature thinking and behavior to WALK/RUN from these kind of people. My exAC had some girl show up to his Halloween Party – turns out he was asking her out while we were on “break” (because of his chronic pain – liar). His explanation was I showed her who I was with (as he kissed me all night). Needless to say I found this out later – are we in HS or what??!!!
Let him call me the B*tch cause I wouldn’t be this worthless man’s friend! I’d rather give my amazing friendship to people who deserve it!
“More importantly, remaining friends with your ex, aside from being some sort of validation of your worthiness, the act in itself makes the process of letting go somewhat less painful. Call it putting off the inevitable.” I think you meant MORE painful, not less.
Nat – what’s with the big font in our replies the last few articles?
Without knowing your browser, I can’t see what the issue is although I would suggest you go to ‘view’ in your browser and change the size of your font if it’s too big. Please use the contact page listed at the top if you want to report a technical issue. I’ll need browser, the version, whether you’re using a PC or Mac etc. I’m on Firefox and the site looks normal.
Goreygal
on 16/11/2010 at 11:02 pm
Recently Windows XP seems to increase font size as I use the vertical scroll bar to read down the replies meaning I have to + to resize the page.
Tess
on 15/11/2010 at 8:06 pm
The other day i heard a radio shrink say to a woman who was agonizing about her kids trying to have a relationship with their dad (her ex), “Why would you encourage and support your kids having a relationship with their dad when he treated you like crap and you left and divorced him?!” paraphrased. Wow, really hit home with me who has agonized myself over this exact thing, despite my recognition that young teenage kids do need some kind of relationship with both parents ideally. But if the dad (or mom) is especially continuing to be an assclown or assclownette, why should you be friends with them or promote anyone else being friends with them?
Goreygal
on 16/11/2010 at 11:05 pm
I think the words “he treated you like crap and you left and divorced him” is the pertinent phrase. The father in the man needs to be separated out from the “assclown” in the man. IMHO no mother has the right to restrict a father’s access to his children unless there is a case for emotional and/or physical abuse to the kids (and legal processes should be applied).
London girl
on 15/11/2010 at 8:08 pm
Ive just been through a horrible experience with an EUM this very weekend that made me realize I finally have to stop playing the friendship card. We dated briefly in the summer after he’d played seriously hot but as soon as he’d got what he wanted – sex – he dropped me like a stone. After a while of ice coldness he started messaging again, always in a sexual way, always trying to meet up. I wouldn’t but I played along with being friends because I was sure he would realize one day what he’d lost and start treating me properly. Ha! Then this weekend I went to a party where I knew he’d be. I planned to be aloof and together but naturally as soon as he began flirting with me I lost all resolve. We got drunk and went out to the garden, i guess to kiss, but we were interrupted. Then suddenly he disappeared. Stupidly (and drunkenly) I rung him offerring to go to his – only for him to turn me down! I felt (and feel) so humiliated. But finally I’ve deleted his number, cut off online contact and realised – I can’t be in his life in anyway and he can’t be in mine. He doesn’t care fir me and he doesn’t care how much he hurts me – as long as his ego is pumped up to the max. He’s not a friend – he’s a horrible self-serving creep. And why would I want to be friends with that?! I’ve spent the last couple of days beating myself up pretty badly but I’m trying to remember I’m not the bad person – he is!
We are all better off without these creeps coming anywhere near us and cutting them off dead – however much and however stupidly it hurts- is the only way. Thanks so much Natslie for this and your ace blog, I don’t know where I’d be without it. Xxx
London Girl, stop beating yourself up. The next time you feel so much as tempted to call him or any other fool, remember this experience and remind yourself how you don’t want to feel this way again. You’ll be fine. Nothing happened so you’ve been spared even more pain! Take care of you!
metsgirl
on 15/11/2010 at 8:17 pm
Wow NML! I am so thankful for this post…not only is it timely but it’s like receiving permission to ditch the “dodger”.
When I told the AC to quit contact, he wanted to “at least text once in awhile to say hi”. I said absolutely not.
I’ve bantered back and forth in my head whether I should have maintained some level of communication…but it would serve no purpose other than to keep him in my life. I get “hooked” in the mindset that the AC must feel so rejected by my actions / words and nice girls just don’t make people feel that way…HA. What a trap and mind screw
Turns out the AC needs to know that there are consequences to treating people badly. This sounds like common sense on paper but somehow I second-guess my decision. Anyway…I just wanted to say what a blessing you are in my life and I’m so glad I found this blog! You really are a great sanity check.
Thanks Metsgirl. Your first instinct was right. “at least text once in awhile to say hi” – hilarious! What a twit! Like you need him keeping a foothold in your life! Close the door, even if it’s on his foot!
Tess
on 15/11/2010 at 8:17 pm
On a different note, in my own suffering love life, I am struggling with the whole friendship thing myself with a recent ex who’s still in my life because we occasionally work together. I am counting the days when we will no longer be working in the same workplace, which is hopefully within a week or two. I still love this man but because of his being an emotionally unavailable assclown, i recognize my need for him to be out of my life, and because he isn’t yet, he continues to flirt and say suggestive things to me to keep that ego stroke. I feel trapped because with our work I need him to remain cooperative, selfishly on my part, so I can complete the project. I daily have to fight the urge to respond to his advances and to faux need to be part of his life again in some way. I don’t want him to be gone, but we can’t be friends. I’ve told him I don’t need any male “friends” as I have enough male friends I have to focus on me. Friends with benefits doesn’t fulfill any need of mine. Frankly I can’t see any point when we would be able to be friends in the future.
I stayed away from the AC for three years after his initial friendship offer.
After three years he offered me the same again after messing with my head and spouting love and all kinds of pathetic rubbish. They cause a fog so you can’t get clarity so they can get off on being emotionally high from their ego trip.
He even admitted to me that his ego was involved!
I feel so sad that I fell for it. I almost caved in and let him email me once. I’ll post his closing line here in that email that made me run for the hills:
Quote: “What’s good (for me) about writing you, is it gives me a chance to think a little tangentially from the things I deal with every day. What’s bad for you is if you take this too seriously or personally. Please don’t. But writing for me is fun. I enjoy it.”
I instantly recognised he was treating me as a friend like he had done in the so called pathetic nothingness of “our” relationship. Managing down my expectations. Incidentally, I had no expectations left regarding him because I thought it was all done and dusted.
Distancing myself again is easy – it’s for me. But what I find tragic is that men like this exist and I let this happen to me and ignored the red flags and got my own ego all wrapped up the rejection thing again.
I feel and felt SET UP! He set me up and I let it happen!
I can’t ever be his friend. He’s too dangerous, manipulative and emotionally abusive. It was right there staring me in the face and my self-esteem was shattered because of my marriage ending after 27 years, my Father dying last year my children leaving home for uni.
He knew all this and he didn’t give a c**p! I cannot be a friend to a self centered immoral arrogant piece of nothing. Angry? You bet I am!
I’m angry at myself – I never even let my ex husband treat me this way – and we can still be friends to a certain degree because ours was an amicable break-up.
My aim is to reach TOTAL indifference. I’m NC and have been for a few weeks. I’m not even counting the days. As soon as I get sentimental I remember how emotionally manipulative he is – that stops me right in my tracks.
Nat is right, by letting them in even an inch we give them the impression that we don’t respect ourselves.
I took the first step in correcting that when I refused his advances. I told him straight he wasn’t free to be in my bed and boy am I glad and proud of myself that I said it!
Hi Leigh. Have you ever heard the saying ‘You give ’em an inch and they take a mile?’ Time is a great healer in some circumstances but time doesn’t magic assclowns into saints. You will get to indifference if you let go of any ideas about him and focus on moving forward…without him. Don’t so much as give him a moment of your time. Use the anger to work through what happened and to learn from it so you don’t ever fall in the same trap again. But remember not to be so hard on yourself. You have a right to be angry with him too. Anger is a natural part of your grief and it will pass
Movedup
on 15/11/2010 at 8:24 pm
With “friends” like that who needs enemies! NO not friends with any exs – cordial but only because we have children together and very strict boundaries with them. No footholds in my life. As my therapist told me – their relationship with our children is up to them not me. Pick them up and leave. Its easier now they are older – one can drive himself to go see his Dad if he likes. The other – its in the door and out – pleasantries and thats it. I feel no obligation to be anything other than polite for my son’s sake – thats it. Those are the only ones I have any form of communication with. The rest are NC all the way. Would not give the pleasure of my company. Their loss – my gain!
I absolutely agree. Reading through the posts here at least 90% of the time the desire to remain friends equals the desire to put off the pain of breaking up with someone. One minute we break up, within the week we want to be friends. It puts us in limbo land. We aren’t fully experiencing the break up so we can’t move on. Even if we date someone else (usually a suspect rebound situation) the ex is still lurking in our thoughts and our hearts.
You have to cut it off and feel the pain. You WILL get over it if you maintain NC and work on yourself. When you’ve done it once, you know you can do it again. It gives you strength in future. You KNOW that if you are mistreated again you can walk away. Most of us never get to know that cos we NEVER break it off. We just stay “friends”. You really have to bit the bullet and get the clowns out of your life. I speak from experience.
Fearless
on 15/11/2010 at 10:25 pm
I know you are right, Grace… I am trying to let it go with my on/off, hot/cold relationship. I have my good days when I feel strong but not often enough… My relationship has been going on for nearly ten years… so it was not a flash in the pan. I love(ed) him (and I often felt loved by him, though inconsistently – he was a frustration, really)… and I still miss him very much, though I have not seen him for three and a half months.
I have done pretty well with NC, generally – only a few minor hitches (falling off the wagon) but no dramatics, which I am not into anyway. (generally speaking he does not contact me – he “reacts” to my contact with him (I never ask to see him, or even say that I want to or anything of that sort). If I am angry, he leaves me well alone, will ignore me, basically, and if I am “reasonable” he will contact me back.
He texted me yesterday asking me to go to London with him for the weekend in a few weeks time (he has occasional meetings to go to in that city and I have gone with him a few times before – we always had a great time).
First I was really pleased (!! I know I shouldn’t have been) that he had asked, as it confirmed to me that he was missing me. My instinctive reaction was, of course I want to go! On the grounds that you’ve got to take your fun in life when it comes along…but I didn’t answer him straight away. I slept on it.
Today, after some tossing and turning and trying to ‘stay real’ I felt, ‘of course I cannot go with him’, and it depressed and disappointed me terribly today, as I really do want to go!! But I know I shouldn’t go.
Someone else said somewhere on th site that sometimes protecting your boundaies etc. feels like punishment – that’s exactly how I feel today…
but…I texted him back this morning asking him ‘is there anything else on the table here other than a weekend in London and back to square one?’ (of course I know the answer, but sometimes I think they should be asked the question!). I am still waiting for him to reply to that!!
I texted him a few hours ago saying ‘it wasn’t a trick question’ – and am still waiting for an answer!! And I am getting madder by the minute!
Help – I am losing control!! (would appreciate someone banging some sense into my head right now. Nat’s post is a good message for me – but I think I am being offered the usual ‘friend with benefits’ – in the ‘big smoke’ for a weekend!
Fearless, if there was anything else on the table you’d know this already. This is elementary Mr Unavailable territory. History has taught you what is on offer. You should know the score by now and that’s what he is banking on. He is pressing the reset button with the invitation. If you go, it’s for fun and sex. Nothing wrong with these things but don’t get it twisted. Stop treating it like a punishment. You’re free to do what you want but own it and be responsible for your decision.
Fearless
on 15/11/2010 at 11:30 pm
NML,
Thanks very much for your response – that was good of you to do that. I know everything you say… I know, I know, I know, I know… knowing doesn’t make it any less painful.. and it feels very painful right now (for three plus months I have held my own, pretty much, and controlled my anger and frustration disappointment in check, pretty well overall… now the tears are flowing… maybe that’s where I now need to go – the crying place – maybe I now need to cry it out.
I knew when I woke up this morning that I could not take him up on the “offer” because it would mean me letting my boundaries down – and I thought long and hard to make sure I knew what they were and so wanted to be steadfast in sticking to them. I won’t give up now…yes, I have known the score for a very long time – and yes, that is what he is banking on. I know hat is true. I am getting no reply from him because he (and I) know there is nothing else on the table – he will be irritated that I have put the question in front of him though – he has no answer (or he will offer no truthful one, so he has none to offer).
I know I should not treat it like punishment -I have been telling myself that all day long… that I can live without a trip of fun to London, that it comes at too high a price: my self-respect, my values etc. (that I now want to insist on living up to).
The one phrase of yours that got me to knowing I could not take the “offer” was the one that clinches it (and sums it all up) every time: “choose you”.
And I did recognise that he was pressing a re-set button, which is why I used the term ‘back to square one’ with him. I do not want to go there again- I been there way too long – and I didn’t fight my way through these past three and a half months to go back to square one!!
Thanks for your help. I want to say also that I know I was overbearing and rude to you when I first came on the site (and probably to others as well); I won’t make excuses, I would just like to tell you that I am very sorry.
Your site is what everyone says it is – a godsend. (I used to turn to a good friend for advice in this relationship- I got bad advice, though well enough intended. Now I just read your blogs and the comments and I know good sense when I hear it – and it’s painful, but hopefully, in time, it will be the making of me – finally!)
Thanks
F
Grace
on 16/11/2010 at 12:27 pm
Fearless
This little trick may work for you. I changed my AC’s name in my phone to STOP. And that was enough for me to think “do i really want to do this?” before contacting him or before responding. Then I would ask myself “Why have I changed his name to STOP?” and the answer is “because he hurt me”. I fell off the wagon too. After a month of NC he texted “I still love you” which made me really happy. I caved in and within weeks he started talking sex again. Basically, and heartbreakingly, they aren’t interested in being friends. They want a shag! It’s that simple! SOB!!
runnergirl
on 12/08/2012 at 5:54 am
Hey Fearless,
Just ran across an old comment and thread…I’m so relieved you didn’t go to London with the exAC, although it must have been tempting at the time. I kept reading, screaming DON’T GO FEARLESS! Aren’t you glad now you didn’t go? In the context of Natalie’s recent post regarding power struggles, it seems to me like the reset button and friend card is another form of the power struggle. For me, every time he hit the reset button, I must have seen it as an opportunity to continue the struggle. You’ll give me what I deserve, goddamit…I got it.
I can go to sleep knowing you didn’t go. You ended the power struggle. Good for you! Whew, it felt like a power struggle just reading this old thread. I got exhausted.
Fearless
on 12/08/2012 at 1:11 pm
Hey Runner!
Sheesh! Oh, God, what was it like!? What was I like?! I haven’t read through the thread – just a few comments back; I will when I get the time. I never kept a journal, so probably reading through these old threads would help me to see how far I’ve come.
My struggle at that point was all in my own head – it was an internal struggle with myself. His attitude was pretty much about take or leave it. The bottom line with him is that he would see me (at his convenience!) only if I wasn’t going to expect more or make demands on him; it was an unwritten rule and I understood that very well (my friend used to say, oh has he pissed off again cos you took your fluffy bunny slippers off – and the about the size of it).
What I recall now is that BR was like a necessary masochism to me! I took a battering on here and kept coming back for more – cos I knew I needed it; I knew I had gone beyond sense and self-protection with that guy, and finally I had found people who were willing to give it to me with both barrels whether I liked it or not (my friends would tip-toe around my ‘thing’ with the EUM; no-one ever laid it on the line for me – and I avoided talking about him)! I didn’t fully believe what I was being told but I figured, the state I was in, that I had a better chance trusting Natalie than trusting myself; I had no trust in my own beliefs or reasoning anymore; was clinging to the fantasy by any old thread – I knew my own head wasn’t making any sense any more.
Sheesh. Yep. I didn’t go to london with him. It was cruel of him to ask me actually, knowing he was just up for fecking me about some more. I feel now, in Aug 2012, that I would still be emotionally vulnerable to him – that he would still have the capacity to eff up my day (maybe my week!) if I had anything to do with him. But I don’t like him anymore – weird how we see them so differently after a very long NC. I recall Elle saying at the time of this thread: Just trust in the process. That phrase stuck with me. I repeated it to myself many times.
Aimee
on 15/11/2010 at 11:22 pm
@ Fearless
Yes – the friend thing and smoke and mirrors. He still thinks you’re hooked (are you? no judgement of course). I can just hear him say “quit being sooo demanding, can’t we just start with a weekend in London?”
Explain the little bleeps of contact missy?? Sounds like contact to me!! I hope you can let go dear – for your own sanity!!
I believe my exAC loved me (how could he not?), but his love is not enough for me – is yours ACs enough for you?
Hugs!!
Fearless
on 15/11/2010 at 11:44 pm
Aimee,
thanks for your kind response. Yes, I am still hooked; am just trying not to be!! Yes, he must know I am still hooked – of course he does. But he also must sense that his coat is hanging on a shoogley nail – I am convinced he also senses that, as I have been more steadfast (if a bit wobbly at times) than he has ever known before.
I try not to beat myself up about my “little blips”; I may take a longer road, but as long as I get there in the end, that is what matters… and when I have finally moved on and let go it won’t matter to me what he thought of my “blips”. Ultimately, he can think what he likes – the greatest development that I see in myself is that I care less and less about what he thinks, now or will think in the future – it’s me I am worried about.
Cheers Aimee – you doin’ so well!!
Minky
on 16/11/2010 at 8:54 am
@Fearless – well done you for not taking him up on the offer!
I struggle with this too – should i text, should i email, should i agree to meet up? But then i think of the bigger picture: what happens AFTER? If i text, what happens after is i sit there frustrated and anxious until i get a reply, if i respond to an email, i then sit there thinking ‘why did i dignify him with a response?! If i meet up, it’s fun at the time, but then you spend 99% of your time wondering what the hell’s going on or what’s going to happen next! I am so SICK of wondering ‘what’s going on?!’ – i spent most of my ‘relationship’ wondering that very thing and i hate it! I’ve been in healthy relationships before and the guy doesn’t leave you wondering what’s going on – you know what’s going on. Those ones leave you smiling and looking forward to the next time, without anxiousnes, doubt or that niggling feeling that you get when you do something you’re not comfortable with.
Think long term, think of you and your self worth and your sanity – do yourself a favour, because the only person he’s caring for and helping out is himself!
Hope this helps :). Stay strong love!
Aimee
on 16/11/2010 at 4:20 pm
@Fearless
Maybe in the posts I look like I am doig well. I am slowly getting better, but I still struggle, especially with the Holidays coming.
I made the mistake of looking at the current FBG’s FB and she is doing things with him that I wanted to do and he never could because of his chronic pain. Why with her and not me?
My heart hurts today – I just wish it would blow up in both their faces. I hate him – he’s cruel.
MH
on 17/11/2010 at 4:53 pm
Fearless,
I hear you loud and clear about the little bleaps not mattering.
One thing that came to my mine reading your response to Aimee and the many posts on this subject is I don’t believe that ignoring them is going to lead them to think oh she means business she is ignoring me.
I think most of these AC’s and EUM’s are going to think well she is the one that is losing out because look at the girls (FBG) that stick by me they are the ones that count.
Even my EUM would say to me I am the only one bothered by his behaviour.
Like another poster on here said her guy thought she was crazy for implementing no contact.
NO CONTACT HAS TO BE FOR OUR BENEFIT ONLY BECAUSE I REALLY DON’T THINK MOST OF THEM CARE. THEY WILL TAKE IT AS A SLAP TO THEIR EGO FOR SURE BUT THEY WILL JUSTIFY THAT WE ARE THE CRAZY ONES.
Totally agree Grace. Those who do this whole ‘let’s be friends malarkey have a lot of loose endings. If you’re totally serious about finding love with someone else, you have to let go of your ex.
Fearless
on 16/11/2010 at 5:19 pm
@Grace – good advice. Thanks. His mobile number on my mobile is now named “Asshole” and his home number is now named “Asshole Headquarters” (!!) (he won’t contact me now though; he’s run off – turned off – having had a flea in his ear – I don’t regret my text sent to him this morning at all. I am glad I told him that, in the measured way that I did. He will know exactly what I mean by it: that his preferred status quo / re-set of previous conditions is not on the table, not on offer – therefore I have nothing to offer him – same as he told me (there’s a nice irony in that, which appealed to me and will also strike a chord with him), and he’ll also feel like a bit of an asshole (for about three seconds!!). He was just chancing his arm, as usual – he lost. And I want him to lose out on me, cos I know he will feel it and is feeling it (not that this is the goal here, but it’s an encouraging add-on for me)
Fearless
on 16/11/2010 at 5:22 pm
Minky – yes, you speak my own feelings and failings. It does help, thanks!
MH
on 15/11/2010 at 8:59 pm
I understand the NC thing.
I have a different situation. My EUM was my friends with benefits so we were never in a boyfriend and girlfriend relationship just a friendship.
I cut physical contact from him and I had to tell him again. I do realize by taking his calls or texts messages at times that in a way I am giving him mixed messages so I do understand why he didn’t get the message as clear as he should have.
After I told him I will not get together with him, he hasn’t asked since.
He gave me more space.
One thing I have noticed as well. He no longer talks about his problems, or issues, or himself much lately. He only contacts me to find out what is going on in my life. I don’t tell him much and most of the time I don’t respond. I respond to generic or what I deem as important.
He was giving me some tips about my job and health aspects. I never asked he just volunteered out of the blue because his girlfriend does the same job as me practically.
My point to mentioning this is that I have spent the time having no physical contact working through my grieving process quite healthly and productively.
People on here have commented that I would work through my process faster if I didn’t speak to him at all.
I disagree completely because I have been through this situation a few times and where I cut off the contact completely I found myself prolonging the grief longer because I really idealized the guy and imagined things a lot more fairy taleish and when I learned later in life how much I was visiting make belief land I thought to myself I should have found out sooner and I would have learned faster that I was wasting time in dream land.
MH
on 15/11/2010 at 9:04 pm
continuation of other post
I am not going to be available for my friend for a shag, a shoulder to lean on, or whatever he would like to get out of me anymore. I haven’t had anything to do with him since he got a girlfriend or shortly before she became his girlfriend. I am not going to help him cheat or anything of that nature.
I am just as much aware as the women on this site that have stop all contact that he is not healthy for me or it is never going to be what I want. I dwell as much as other women on this site about what could have been, should have been, how things were in the beginning, that have stopped all contact with their guys.
What I am getting at is NC is the way to go and you can’t really be friends with these guys for all the reasons listed above but I am not keeping the little door cracked because I am getting validation out of him or I want a chance with him.
I was hiding out in my EUM because I feared commitment. I am dwelling now at times because I wanted him in the past to convince me that we would fall for each other. I didn’t really want him, I just wanted to not have to go back out in the dating world and have to start all over again and get to know someone and get close again in case that fails too. It is so much work. I wanted this relationship to work beyond reality because I was being emotionally lazy.I fell for this guys potential even though I wasn’t looking at him that way. I think the stuff that Nat has said about liking them when they reject you became a huge issue for me. It is like he became more interesting or I couldn’t figure out why he put so much effort into our situation when it was just a friends with benefits situation. So I started to think I meant more to him than I did and I liked that. Except I learned over time because he started giving more to his girl that was originally getting less then I was and was titled his booty call. I thought friends with benefits trumped booty call until she was getting more benefits I realize I have to get out of this situation. I thought I should even before she was in the picture but I didn’t stick to it back then. I started to realize I deserve better and that both of us girls were his fall back girls. My title was break glass in case girl. Very earlier on I asked him if I was his break glass in case girl. I laugh now because did I really expect him to say “as a matter of fact you are but please stick around you never know when I have to break that glass” I am killing myself laughing right now. Like right he would say that along with “while we are on the topic I also do this, this and that to you”
I am learning plenty on this website and I know that I am never going to have the friendship I once had with him because it was full of disrespectful aspects. As for now I don’t put myself in any situations with him that I have to depend on him as a friend. He is there in a faint background as I continue to grieve what I thougth I had. I thought I had a really great friendship and that he would always have my back.
MH
on 15/11/2010 at 9:06 pm
final continuation
I stopped complete contact with my ex boyfriend who was a abusive assclown, Eum, commitment phobe, narcissist and just a nasty guy all around who happened to be lots of fun, and liked hearing what was going on in my life on a daily, weekly basis. So I had to grieve the latter benefits of what I liked but the rest was horrible.
I tried the friendship thing with my ex AC. I learned exactly what Nat is describing above. If my current Eum was causing problems in my life like he use to or anything like my ex or even a small percentage of problems I would shut the door completely. He really isn’t an issue for me anymore. The only issue I find is that I have to deal with myself and my tendency to idealized jerks. I find lately thanks to the support on here, my friends and Nat. I am repeating to myself daily positive comments such as have faith a great guy is coming because I am no longer going to settle on a loser. no your not missing out on this latest eum because you chose to no longer take crumbs. Just because his girlfriend ffought for him it means she likes crumbs you want a whole loaf but not in one sitting that is too much, but throughout time I would like to experience the whole loaf.
Bottom line I broke the contact that we use to have and I worked through my issues with very little contact mostly on his part. I didn’t contact him. I waited at times to asked him something I wanted to after he contact me, I never initiated it first. I would only suggest this advice for those with kids with the guy or people like me who recognize the situation for what it is and I am strong on what it is I just don’t always like what it is. Other times I realize it is a blessing in disguise and I will one day be saying thank goodness things ended with him and I because look what I have now. This attitude is hard only because I have never had a good guy and I don’t have one now so to have faith in something that has never existed in my world is pretty tough. However I tell myself, you are strong and faith is all you have because what you had isn’t good enough for you, so you only have the choice of going forward.
MH, I’m all about doing what works for you, as in works healthily not ‘works’ albeit dysfunctionally. Only you know your situation and what you are and aren’t doing and if this is working for you and you’re moving forward, keep doing it. The moment it stops working, cut contact. The key is not to bullshit yourself under any circumstances because that is where denial gets its proverbial foot through the door. My one word of caution is that if you were Friends With Benefits, ‘friends’ is the operative word because if you have been treated less than a friend, you’re actually a booty call, and they rarely are healthy situations. In or out of your life, your job now is to keep him real and focus on moving on. You may find that you reach a point where you can let him go in every sense of the word. Good luck!
Grace
on 16/11/2010 at 1:54 pm
MH
Does his girlfriend know he is in fairly regular contact with you? Does she know that he has suggested hooking up with you? That is not an honourable way to behave. Even though he has stopped asking you for sex, do you really believe he is maintaining this contact to give you hints and tips?
You were never even boyfriend/girlfriend, yet you are determined to keep him in your life. You don’t want him back, you’re not going to have sex with him or provide him with any support. Yet you need him in your life. I would examine that need – I think that’s what’s led you into this situation over and over. And while you think this situation is markedly different from your other exes, it doesn’t read that way to an outsider.
MH
on 16/11/2010 at 5:37 pm
NML,
Thanks for your support and advice
“The moment it stops working, cut contact”
I agree with this statement above completely.
I am not really holding onto a friendship because I don’t give him the shoulder to lean on like I use to when I considered us close friends.
I don’t get together with him and I have told him that I won’t.
I hear everything you say and I appreciate every word and I have thought exactly what you are saying and if I am in danger of being in pain or anything by him I will shut the door completely and choose me first. I feel at the moment I am choosing me because I don’t let him use me for anything and I really stick to these boundaries that I learned from you and that I was starting to recognize I have deep inside.
thanks again.
MH
on 16/11/2010 at 8:10 pm
Hi Grace,
MH
Does his girlfriend know he is in fairly regular contact with you?
Yes his girlfriend knows we talk because she has been there in the background. She has come home and he said who he is talking with. She has been in the background when her lap top broke and I had the same problem and he was asking me for her, where did I get the cable that she needs. She is very aware of me and that him and I use to be friends with benefits as well. She wants to meet me and he wants me to meet her.She hangs out with him and other girls from his past that he has been intimate with and their spouses too. He keeps friends with all his exe’s and girls he gets intimately involved with. She even talks to the girl that he admitted he was sleeping with while at the same time as her and she says she forgives him because they were not commited at the time. There is nothing going on anymore with him and I so neither of us are doing anything wrong in that regard.
Does she know that he has suggested hooking up with you?
I am not understanding hooking up? He has invited me to hang out with them many times and at times when she isn’t there. Him and I were platonic friends for four years so I have reason to believe that he didn’t have other intentions with me because he was able to keep his hands off me for four years. He has told me that he is commited to her and he knows I wouldn’t with a guy with a girlfriend.
That is not an honourable way to behave.
I am not following how this is not honourable he isn’t making sexual gestures at me, he knows I have stayed away from him, he knows my feelings about people cheating. So far I don’t have any proof that he is mistreating his girlfriend as far as cheating or anything. I barely talk to him so I don’t know what happens behind close doors but it ain’t with me that is forsure. Even when we were involved he has seen me many times decline him when I wasn’t in the mood for some intimacy. I don’t see him so it is physically impossible to be put in this situation regardless.
Even though he has stopped asking you for sex, do you really believe he is maintaining this contact to give you hints and tips?
Everything is speculation. I have thought of what NML keeps saying that they do keep you in their lives for a shag, a shoulder to lean, etc. Except he isn’t really doing that so as it stands he is acting somewhat like a friend.I am not giving it much weight because I don’t really associate with him. I never see him and I barely respond to his messages. When I do respond it is when he is asking a general friendship comment “like be careful about sicknesses in the industry or where can his girlfriend get a new cable for her laptop. He happens to get verbal diahrea at times and start spewing what is going on in his life and tries to find out about mine and that is how I get more information about him than I needed or wanted. I never asked or inquire about it. Either way friends do share their lives so his information doesn’t really alarm me.
You were never even boyfriend/girlfriend, yet you are determined to keep him in your life. You don’t want him back, you’re not going to have sex with him or provide him with any support.
Regardless what anyone thinks we were close friends for two years and friends for six years.
I would examine that need – I think that’s what’s led you into this situation over and over.
You bring up valid points about examining the need but at this point and maybe I have to delve further like you are suggesting it doesn’t feel like a need to me. I don’t see him, I don’t contact him, I barely respond to him that is not exactly acting like I need someone.
I am leaving the door slightly open like I do another guy that I classified as my previous EUM except we had no intimate contact ever but I had a crush on him and he did the disappearing acts and pulled crap on me. The reason I keep that door open slightly is because we as well have mutual friends and there is group outtings and I see him at those and that is the extent of our contact. He pops at my work sometimes unexpectly but I never pop up in his life.
I am leaving the door open slightly with this EUM that we are discussing, in case I have a question like my lap top cord breaks or whatever.Also I have always wanted to keep him in the slight background for whatever reasons. We were friends longer than we were intimate friends. However, like Nat says if it causes me more problems than it is worth I will ceased all contact. I have managed to work through things the way things are.
Also why I was led into this situation over and over or more like why I would not leave permently in the past? I would tell him that I am done because I wasn’t happy but he would convince me that things were going to be better or that I shouldn’t take that particular issue personally.
In the end I chose me because I couldn’t be convinced of those things anymore so that is why I could finally leave the situation that was leading me to participate in it over and over as you say.
So for me I have already examined it but does not mean that I won’t still further examine it. You give a really good point. I know you struggled with cutting complete contact.
The thing that was the hardest for me to give up on and I realized for my own sanity I had to was the fun times we spent together plus the trips we went on. He has getaway places that are owned by his family where we got to go for free and I loved it there. Plus I would find places for us to go to and he would join me.I already did the thing that I thought was impossible for me to do.He has friends that like me and he says I can go with his friends and him and his girlfriend and then I don’t have to give up on the getaway places. I still declined because I don’t share the mutual feelings for his friends.
Hearing from him in the beginning use to bother me but I have come so far now that it doesn’t bother me anymore. Atleast for right now, I just don’t dramatize it, if it does I will come here for support.
And while you think this situation is markedly different from your other exes, it doesn’t read that way to an outsider.
Well thank you for pointing that out because we should examine things others see. There are many times others see things we don’t. I will definately look into this or keep it in the back of mind to see if it is causing any problems in my life right now.
thanks Grace
Aimee
on 16/11/2010 at 9:01 pm
@MH
I am not sure of the “whole” history, but have seen your posts. If you feel it is healthy for you, have boundaries, have no “deep” feelings for him – I say high five!
I think one has to remember that he seems to be being honest with his current GF – knows who he has been intimately involved with, meets them, and can talk to them in front of the GF – sounds like he is being “pretty” honest.
I do not want a ‘hostage”. I want an adult, mature relationship. I think we have to remember in this day and age that men and women CAN be friends w/o sex, etc. I even liked that my exAC had female friends – thought that was a good quality. Turns out he did not want to introduce them to me and vice versa and could not talk to them in front of me.
Me, on the other hand, couldn’t wait to introduce him to my male friends, had no problem talking to them in front of him, they all knew about him.
The important thing is to stay in REALITY, not the fantasy. I am guessing you have grown tremendously through this relationship.
Grace
on 16/11/2010 at 9:43 pm
MH
Thanks for the clarification. You do have this under control. What’s niggling me is that you two have so little to do with each other, why not just kill it off? I guess it’s like homeopathy (not that I believe it). Something very small and insignificant can have a disproportionate effect. He is a part of your old life. To move into a new life you need to clear out the old stuff.
For instance I FINALLY cut off one of my exes from TWENTY years ago. There was no chance we ever would have sex. We hadn’t seen each other for two years. He was nothing to me. But when he sent me yet another FB friend request something made me block him. He is just not a part of my new life.
I get that my experience is not the same as yours, but I feel that if someone is not adding to my life, there isn’t any point having them around.
Of course, it is your life, and it is up to you to decide what’s best for you.
MH
on 17/11/2010 at 6:06 pm
hi Grace,
I don’t think of him as part of my life period, old or new. In my mind he is gone or what I enjoyed the most that he provided is gone. In essense he is gone. I grieve everyday what I had with him.
Why I haven’t cut it off completely is because I did tell him many times I wanted nothing to do with him. I ignored him for weeks thinking he was gone and then he would keep texting, calling, emailing and whatever.I would get upset in the beginning because it felt like he had the control. He would keep responding even though I wasn’t. I would feel content from not hearing from him and then I would hear from him so I felt like he had the power to upset me.
So I changed my mind and accepted that he wanted to keep in touch and chose not to dramatize things. I realized when he called I could ask for information that was important to me or whatever. I embraced the fact that he wasn’t going away. I remembered one of my friends he was involved with many years back telling me that even three years later he still kept in contact with her. I knew deep down a part of me almost a huge part of me doesn’t really want him to stop contacting me. I like it. I realize that they will go away eventually if you completely ignore them and that is not what I wanted I realized. As long as I know that he is not the right guy for me, and that I continue to work through things and come to this site for support during my weak moments or doubts I should be okay. I know I love myself because when I said my final goodbyes which was even before this site. I said I love myself too much to continue to see you.
I like the way it is. I like that he is there if I need to ask him something. I know I can wait until he contacts me. I think I would be more bothered if he stopped. He isn’t affecting me really, I am working on my grieving. What we had is gone so I have had to go through all the stages of grief to deal with what I had. What I have now isn’t enough and makes me want to meet someone who will give me that so I have drive.
Therefore at present I don’t think he is harmful. Lately, he doesn’t tell me too much about the mushy stuff of his life so I feel I can handle things. If he does I have to address that issue when it arises. For now I am letting things be but if it doesn’t work I have to revisit other alternatives at that time.
I too like yourself got rid of an ex last year who was bothering me and I got rid of new female friend that had major issues. So I have confidence in myself that if something isn’t making me happy I will eventually figure something out. I got rid of her and the ex super quick so this guy isn’t bothering me that much or I would get rid of him in a second. I think I know what to say that would work I hope I don’t have to use it because it would put a damper on things with our mutual friends. So for now it all works for me. Like I said if he completely went away I would be posting here about that and dwelling on it. Nothing I would say to him would be about our mutual friends, just they would be upset if I turf him for good. They all like him and they would want us to get along. However, if I have to for my sanity then I will. I choose me.
Peacefrog
on 15/11/2010 at 9:07 pm
learnt the hard way that trying to be friends with ex-AC just lets them off the hook. I understand that boundaries are key but am struggling when meeting new people. Was meant to meet a guy last week i reconnected with on facebook, he was really keen, made arrangements but then he had to cancel due to work – genuinely – but four days have gone by and he hasn’t tried to reschedule, and that feels like a violation of my boundaries… but is it? and if so how do i let him know that without dramatizing it? sigh.
Fearless
on 15/11/2010 at 10:38 pm
If/when he does try to re-schedule let him wait twice as long as he left you waiting for him to re-schedule. Let the terms now be yours, not his. Be alert with this one.
(I wish I could take my own advice!! :))
MH
on 16/11/2010 at 1:29 am
Hi Fearless,
I think I understand where your struggling point is.
I too was into the entertainment of my relationship. Actually we had the whole friendship thing going on and the fun.
Before him, I was doing school full time and a full time job. I graduated and he came just at that point and was inviting me to weekend getaways too, etc.
I have been in no physical contact for over four months now and he continued to invite me to all the fun haunts we use to go to and new ones.
Here’s the clincher fearless I told him there is one huge problem with going to any of the activities he invited me to. HE WILL BE THERE TOO!!!
I was not just simply trying to be funny, I was making a point to him that I am done hanging out.
I think you are at that level of thinking where your life is at a standstill so to speak. You enjoy your peace because your not a drama seeker, however, you don’t fully understand why someone could future fake for 10 years. You believe and want to believe there is some redeeming factors in your relationship because how can 10 years be for not. Or just some life lessons, or just a complete waste of time. You still want to believe he cared for you but he just couldn’t deal with real love or something along those lines.
When I decided to end things with my FWB I had to come to terms that I would be losing the main thing in our relationship which was the fun. Our friendship was more based on hanging out, going places, and the intimacy was only a part of it the friendship came first.
I never thought I could do it but for three months straight he invited me to awesome things but I couldn’t subject myself anymore to someone not wanting the whole package with me.
I realize I want a man that can’t get enough of me. I want a guy that I don’t have to guess how he feels about me, etc. The problem is I got tired of just getting pieces of a guy I wanted the whole guy or another whole guy.
You have to get on this thinking level. I just had a friend who was dissed by a AC and she was making excuses for him and I said stop it he is asshole and treats you like crap stop making excuses for him.
I always tell my friends when they are struggling that they have to get out when they are ready.
If your life is boring right now, like mine is pretty much since I walked away from my friend. Try and have faith that if we learn to find our own fun we don’t have to take it where we can get it.
My “friend” and I were supose to go to one of my female friends parents lake front property for a weekend in the summer time but I left him before it could happen.
I ended up going with two couples (isn’t that the worst after a break up or having someone around) and a bunch of kids. I dwelled for a couple of minutes thinking, if him and I went up together I could escape all this drama. One of the kids decided to cause me issues for no reason and all the adults especially the parents got completely stressed out and were so embarrassed that the kid did it to me. I am suprised I was still glad he wasn’t there. He even contacted me trying to find out when I was going and wanted to go with me but I said no.
Normally if I had a bad experience like that I would wish he was there to get away from it all. I know he would have a left a day early like I wanted but I didn’t want to bring up my own car to travel four hours by myself so I hopped in with my friend and her boyfriend. Anyways it wasn’t that bad in the end and I told myself don’t dwell you still deserve better than his push pulley game.
I am telling you all this because I can tell you realized it is not a good idea to go with him.That it is good to listen to ourselves even though our alternative plans are not the kind of fun these guys use to provide. We have to plough through it because it means we think enough of ourselves and on the other side there is going to be better and more fulfilling.
WE JUST HAVE TO BELIEVE AND BE TRUE TO OURSELVES.
Fearless
on 16/11/2010 at 10:39 am
Thanks, MH. Yes, it is the sheer length of time and investment I have made… and all the rest, as you say, and as Nat’s blog says. But I am, by degrees, with the help of Nat’s blogs and this site, coming to my senses; I don’t want to be his ‘friend with benefits’; I don’t want a pseudo relationship where I give my all so that he doesn’t have to.. I don’t want what he is offering me – which is naff all. I am staying home! London will have to live without me!
I got a message back from him this morning (for those interested in my mini-drama!).. it reads: “I have nothing to offer anyone just now, and I don’t want a debate”
I haven’t answered him. But where do they get off?? He was”offering” a trip to London, if nothing else – he was offering me the position of ‘friend with benefits’! (And he still will be if I am daft enough to take him up on it – and I have been ‘daft’ for a long time, so he can’t be blamed for thinking I will be again!)
I’ll probably message him back … am just thinking of an apt response…any suggestions?!and then I’ll muster my resolve again and bite the bullet (and he will leave it at that – he won’t pursue or message me back again… pursuing is that last thing he wants to get into – he’d be happy for my compliance, so long as it falls on his lap, effortlessly on his part!).
I am realising more and more that I do need to cut him out of my life (and my head, which is the harder part) once and for all and just get on with the rest of my life without him in it – as he says, he has “NOTHING to offer anyone right now” (I am supposing I am just “anyone” then?! :))
Elle
on 16/11/2010 at 11:59 am
@Fearless – Sorry to hear your NC has been disrupted. For what it’s worth, it’s been six months NC for me with my AC now – I can hardly believe it – and I haven’t had so much as a peep from him. I have had to look at and accept the fact that he just really didn’t love or respect me that much, and that’s he’s just not that interested. I know that this only bothers me when I feel tired, out of control or dissatisfied with life, or somehow resentful that I have to be 100% responsible for my life.
I just achieved a huge milestone in my career this past week, and it hurt not having anyone to share that with – as much as I also felt incredibly proud that I finished something bloody difficult, even while being handicapped by the confusion and grief of a relationship and break-up with an AC. I am fine 90% of the time (ie. not thinking of him, fairly happy, busy etc), and I only get a bit twitchy or weepy when my brain starts to focus on something horrible he said to me in those final weeks – like the fact that his instinct was to change me and drag me down and crush me. It still creeps me out (and hurts) that someone looked at me from the other side and saw such ungenerous, undesirable things. Or else, it’s when I think of the dreams and hopes I had and how hugely thwarted (and essentially ungrounded and foolish) they were.
Anyway, I digress (cough), I am not sure whether you’ve replied to the EUM (and I think he is a borderline AC, I have to say – his ‘not open to debate’ comment is pretty abusive, actually – why does he get to silence you?). I think I would reply with a v short, simple, dignified text, along the lines of ‘Thanks for the [London] invite, but I won’t be joining you.’ You could add a ‘And definitely no debate needed ; )’ or a ‘Have a good trip’, but this might sound slightly snarky and I think your only ‘play’ at this point is to pretend that you don’t really care. Like a ‘Thanks, but no thanks, have fun!’ type of tone.
I wouldn’t say anything that says ‘here are my feelings’ because all he will do (I know this from experience) is turn your feelings into irritations, threats or insults and more fodder for him to be the victim again.
Good luck, stay strong, and don’t be too hard on yourself – I am still 10% screwy and I only have 10 months of the AC, whereas you’ve had almost 10 years! It’s going to take some time and practising…
We’re on your team!
Fearless
on 16/11/2010 at 12:31 pm
For those interested, I did message him back with: “No debate. I have nothing to offer you either.
ps I am not just ‘anyone’.”
I have heard him repeat (ad nauseum) that he has ‘nothing to offer me right now’ for so many years, it felt good to say it back to him. And it is true – I have nothing left for him to suck from me and I am not offering or accepting a return to the status quo, so I have nothing. (note his qualifying “right now”; truth is he has had nothing to offer anyone ever and never will have)
Guess I am back on another try at NC. So be it… friend? with benefits? When he feels like it?Thanks, but no thanks.
I shall give you all peace now from my sad little mini-series. Let’s hope that was the final episode. Thanks for listening – and NML is right; if you keep being their “friend” they have no reason to think they are doing anything wrong; by trying to stay friends we are condoning and perpetuating all their crapology. Let them live in their own crap – with someone else.
Fearless I feel for you. For the sake of your sanity, you must stop engaging. No Contact means no contact and it’s time for cold turkey and putting your ego aside. The reason why it’s not open to debate is that this is not a two-way street. You have both danced this dance many times before and you know the score. He is basically saying
‘I’m inviting you to London for fun and sex. It is what it is – take it or leave it. If it doesn’t suit you fine but don’t try to argue with me about it because you should know the score by now and I don’t want to get into a confrontation with you. It’s been ten years Fearless – you should realise by now that I am what I am. Stop expecting more from me. I keep thinking that you’ve got the message and then you try to ruin things by having needs and wondering what’s going to happen afterwards. Nothing’s going to happen afterwards – it’s a weekend away. Period.’
You deserve better Fearless. Stop selling yourself short and practice what you preach. You have empowering advice and support for other readers but I suggest that you start directing those energies at yourself. (((hugs))))
Fearless
on 16/11/2010 at 3:29 pm
Thanks, NML. Don’t I know it! – I have been translating his EU language ino ‘real speak’ for years (then I’d try to ignore it!! I keep this big metaphorical sweeping brush and I just swept all the rubbish I didn’t like to deal with under the carpet – so you can imagine, all these years… it’s got pretty manky around here!).
You know none of it was ever really lost on me – I was just lost in my own wants and my own fears (mainly about how I’d cope without him at all; so long as I knew he was there or thereabouts it made me feel that I coud draw on it – even just for what it was. I am the archetypal ‘this was a whole lot better than nothing’).
Yes, I can give advice, but you are spot on and, don’t I know it too, I seem incapable of applying it to myself – I have been batttling with myself to act on my own ‘advice’ and then failing to stand firm – that battle has been wrung out in my head for years and years and years – mostly the on/off was down to me trying to extricate myself, disengaging with his one-way street attitude; giving him a mouthful and staying away from him for as long as I could stand it. Usually about 2 months at most. So, I should not be too despondent; I have not clapped eyes on him since the end of July – I have well beat my record – and contact by text/phone has actually been more minimal than ever before – by far. So, I must be making headway, please God, let it be so.
(my advice to others has not been entirely altruistic, it has to be said; I gain from it by simply hearing it coming from my own head – and typing it out to others also bolsters my own resolve. So, my comments to others here has also been very theraputic and supportive for me.)
Anyway, I blab…cold turkey here I come. I am frightened – of the absolute, the finality, the land of never ever (I am not fearless at all! That’s aspirational! I should change my username to “hopeless but trying hard”!). I know cold turkey is the only way out of this miserable place. Pray for me that I am not completely lost and hopeless (that would be to St Jude then, please – the patron saint of hopeless cases :))
Thanks for hugs, NML; boy, do I need them today.
Aimee
on 16/11/2010 at 6:56 pm
@Fearless
We’re here for you girl! And you are in my prayers to St. Jude along with some for myself! LOL
jennynic
on 16/11/2010 at 8:18 pm
You are human, just like the rest of us. You are not hopeless, just going over a few bumps in the road. I like that you call yourself Fearless, that shows hope…not hopelessness. Be strong, you have it in you!
Grace
on 16/11/2010 at 11:58 pm
Fearless
The finality you dread is what will set you free. It may take a while longer for you to get there but when you do, it’s not going to feel like the END but a new BEGINNING.
Findingmyself
on 17/11/2010 at 12:43 am
Fearless, you are/ have made progress-you go girl! I can’t remember reading you’re entire story, sorry there are a lot of stories to remember. I had posted on another topic here, somewhere, a link to the trauma bond, here it is again check it out…maybe it will shed some light for you.
Lisa
on 17/11/2010 at 7:27 pm
great link posted by findingmyself. Thank You
MH
on 18/11/2010 at 6:00 pm
Hi Fearless,
You deserve the title and try to understand that you were with this person for ten years, longer than I have ever been with anybody and letting go takes longer.
I have to say that my life is definately full of peace. I call myself my own best friend. I have found that since I decided to let go of the EUM who was providing me with my social life it has pretty well come to a stop.
My friends that I have had for so many years don’t seem to share the same values as me and ever since I left him I have put distance between me and my friends.
I find this so hard at times because when I experienced my last break up from an actual boyfriend I had my friends and an active social life. So this time around I find I have more time to think about my EUM. Now I go to the few outtings with friends that have good morals and values. Everytime I go out with my other friends I find they do similar behaviours to my last EUM and I am upset after the outting. I then put distance between me and that friend and they start sending me messages asking me if I am dead or alive like my EUM use to ask me when I put distance between him and I.
I am hoping this lull is going to lead me to new friends eventually because I am spending my time trying to create a happier me.
I get the impression as I said before you are afraid that letting him go is going to lead to never having fun again in your life. I think you have to focus on faith and realize that endings lead to beginnings. I think we have to go through this in order to have real fun again.
I get nothing out of my EUM anymore and the good news is I have peace even though I want more excitement in my life, I remind myself of the pain I felt that came after the excitement so it isn’t worth it. I also tell myself that I have felt like this before and a whole new life came about afterwards.
Granted a life with the EUM but it was better than the last life with the AC. Also this last relationship has become my epiphany relationship. I finally ffgured out what I have been saying to my friends for years. I said I have these relationship patterns and I am starting to think they are no accident and that I have to figure out my patterns in order to achieve a healthy relationship. This is how I found this site when I started to realize this.
I know how you feel right now because four months ago I had to give up the one thing I didn’t want to which was my social life with him.
One time a friend of mine who has no instincts planned a boating trip for her and I with two guys who were complete strangers. I didn’t know until the last minute that she never met the guys. I was with my EUM at his lake property and was suppose to cut the weekend short with him on the Sunday to go with my friend and these guys. Friday I talk to my friend and she tells me that she was on her way to meet the guy. I was like “WHAT”, well all of Saturday I was bothered by this and I left a voice mail that I don’t want to go. Meanwhile my EUM told me that it was a crazy idea. I was by myself at his property all day saturday and he was with his buddies out for the day. He came back in he evening and told me he planned a boating trip with one of his friends and me and my friend can come with them on the Sunday instead and I won’t be a in dangerous situation anymore. I think this is when my EUM won my trust. I have never had someone have my back like that. I even thought of this when I was ending things but I realize that was beginning EUM and he is gone now.
Its is going to be better than okay I assure you because everytime I get upset about things I tell myself I won’t let you down you still have me to count on, as crazy as this sounds. It works though. You can count on yourself and you know way better than your soon to be ex. We need to have faith that things will get better. I picture myself having a better social life then before because I picture it with people who will truly have my back for good and there will be fun and no pain at the end of the day.
We have your back on this site because everyone wants the best for each other.
Fearless
on 18/11/2010 at 10:06 pm
@Aimee, Jennynic, Grace, MH findingmyself,Elle (and anyone else who knows me!!) – thankyou for your posts,kind words and support – it helps me a lot. (yes, findingmyself, your link does help me.. definitely, I have been traumatically bonded… and I do see now exactly why I never talked about my ‘relationship’ – not that he was a secret, not at all – but my sense of shame and guilt and inability to ‘leave’ etc. meant I did not want to dislose or discuss it…I knew what the advice would be and I knew I would feel pressured dump him or, at the very least, to discuss it all, to account for myself, to defend my position, and I had no defense, only that, well, I must be an idiot! So I actually became anxious when friends asked me about him, about ‘what was happening’ with him. And if they pressed me on it I would feel physically sick! I have bottled so much up in myself all this time…
…also, I do definitely have a very low sense of entitlement – I always have had – I can see also where this has stemmed from – I am one of seven children and I felt drowned out by the others who always had first call on everything that was going! I am still always at the back of every queue!… I do not think that anyone is duty bound to love me or want me and I did not expect “him” to – but I should expect to be treated with care and respect by the man who wants to sleep with me – it’s not too much to bloody ask!!
I don’t need him to be my “friend” – not anymore – I didn’t put myself through all of this to be his ‘pal’. That’ll be bloody right!
Now that I can see through the fog I do not care what HE thinks – this alone is like a new found freedom for me! A terrible worry and burden lifted from my shoulders. I actually do not care what he thinks anymore! 🙂 🙂 (For so long, what he thought was sooo important to me and caused me serious anxiety).
Nat is right – pain and hurt is no friend to anyone – I am doing my damndest to hold tight to my self respect (in this ‘relationship’ it is all I have left to salvage! I am not giving him that as well!!); I too keep telling myself I will be my own friend; I will not let ME down…I am trying to talk myself up every day… me validating me.. telling myself constantIy what I really only need to be reminded of: that I have a core of steel and I can and I will overcome.
Thanks to you all and I wish you too to discover your own peace and contentment – and love. x
Grace
on 16/11/2010 at 12:40 pm
Fearless, please, i’m begging you, don’t have anything more to do with him. I am literally crying for you here. He is behaving like a complete and utter jerk. I know you can’t see the situation in full because you are in the middle of it, but from where I am standing he is a complete and utter waste of time. Think back to all the times that you have told other women here that their AC/EUM is unworthy – so is your guy. He is every bit as bad as them, maybe even worse as after ten years, ten freaking years, he is still treating you like crap.
He has basically said to you “I just want to have sex. Do it or or shut up.” I know violence is not the answer but I want to punch him!
Grace
on 16/11/2010 at 12:42 pm
Don’t text back.
Fearless
on 16/11/2010 at 1:12 pm
Thanks Elle,
you will read my earlier post (awaiting moderation) saying what I messaged him back. Yes, I think he is borderline AC (though – not that it matters – but looking at his message again, I think he meant that he did not respond right away because he “Didn’t” want a debate – it’s the abbreviations of txt messages that are hard to decipher sometimes – and I know! – the fact that we are text messaging says it all!!
I have been victim, I am sure, to the passive – stealth type control (though I think this guy just acts on instinct rather than consciously thought out design, if you see what I mean.) He has never insulted me (by his overt words), never brings me down (overtly) is never abusive (physically or verbally)… and I have got to know him pretty damn well over the years; he can be and is very affectionate when we are together; he avoids all conflict – with anyone- hates doing the what he calls the “Gerry Springer talk”.. is actually (EU behaviour aside) always very supportive to people – and genuinely so – and never uses hurtful words to anyone that I have seen. In fact he always made me feel like I was the one who ‘let it rip’! He never does. So long as his interactions do not require him to draw heavily on his emotions, so long as we live in the here and now and don’t talk ‘future’, he is – otherwise – a really nice guy to be with.
It is this dichotomy that has been the problem for me. I honestly would not be interested in an openly abusive guy who insulted me ; brought me down and called me names etc…This one is a walking contradiction. His previous text – 12 hours earlier – asking me to London was all ‘babe’ and ‘kisses’ and ‘miss you every day’; soon as I ask him what’s on really on offer I basically get, well, actually, ‘nothing and please don’t drag me into a big diaogue/debate about it’. In other words, come to London or don’t – I don’t want to discuss anything else.
It’s bollocks. But I shoudl get off and stop hogging the airwaves here with my irrelevancies…
Thanks for your interest and support. x
Used
on 16/11/2010 at 3:15 pm
Fearless–
Good response to the asshole.
Now cut him off completely by never speaking about him again to your friends and family, by getting rid of all phone numbers, emails, etc., and by cutting him off from any corresponding with you (have his email address marked as spam or whatever).
Elle–
The guy you knew was clearly jealous of you. Be THANKFUL he said what he said to you, b/c it shows his true character: that he was so envious and jealous that he had full intentions of bringing you down in life. There is a saying, by Mark Twain, “The difference b/w a starving dog and a starving human being is this: the dig won’t bite you when you feed him.”
So many “men” out there are so jealous and/or insecure and/or not knowing who they themselves are (and their value) that they target and bring down the good women. If course, this is after they get what they need from you! (Whatever it is.)
The key with men nowadays is to remain enigmatic. Sure, both men and women say that they want the whole person, they want the person “with warts and all”, but the truth is they want the “sunny” you. Which includes, sadly, NOT giving them advice when they need it, b/c they will only have contempt for you if there is any issue as to whether or not they will use it, meaning, even if they DON’T use it, they (1) found out how you think, and (2) hate that you know that they wanted your advice.
You have to keep things light, show the best side of you, and refrain from giving away ANY information that would impact their life at all (personally, socially, or economically).
Save that for marriage!
A guy I once knew, a true AC, once sat with me at a professional dinner–he CHOSE to sit with me–and I had decided beforehand that, with him there woud be NO significant information EVER excahnged at all, ever, unless he were to ask me out, and even in THAT case, there wouldn’t be such an exchange of info. He actually COMMENTED after dinner was over that we weren’t exchanging info. I then said, “But aren’t we having a good time?” To which he had NO response.
When I became engaged to hy husband, which came as a TOTAL shock to him b/c he had no idea that we were even dating (of course he wouldn’t have such an idea–the women we knew in common were all a part of his harem; they would, interrupt any contact he would have wit me at parties, etc., to the point that me and him had NO chance of EVER going out during the 12–yes 12!!!–years that we had known each other UNLESS he had the balls to actually pick up the phone and call. But that would mean him feeling “guilty” toward the main harem fan, who, btw, he has not given up on being friends with, b/c he LOVES the admiration, even though they are BOTH married! He even seeks the main harem girl out, which I just found out; so her aggressiveness got her to the point of having him in her life forever, if not as her husband, then as a very close friend. Chummy, isn’t it!–Even if tis means that he WON’T see me, and even though I always knew from his mutual friends that he “liked” me).
Anyways, I bring thsi jerk up as an example b/c he actually CALLED ME FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER only AFTER I got engaged, to partner up on a business matter where he “needed my help.” This occurred A FEW YEARS after the conversation, above, where he made those comments. Also note that, though he “liked” me (best), I was STILL associated with the harem. This is even though I never acted like these girls. BUT he liked (and STILL likes) the attention from them! Yes, MORE THAN me!
I always thought that EUMs and ACs really want the girl with class, etc., who doesn’t act like the fallback, but what they really want IS the fucking harem (which is pathetic) AND the girl who walks in front of them when they are ready for marriage.
This is why, if they want Miss Enigma Who Walks in Front of them When they are Ready for Marriage, and end up miserfable with her, divorce or not, you DON’T EVER FEEL SORRY FOR THEM.
Sorry, this applies even to the decent men out there. There are SOOOOOO many decent women, with reputations as such, that they could choose from, WHY feel sorry for ANY man who makes a bad choice with the MOST IMPORTANT decision of their lives? DON’T.
So NEVER FEEL SORRY FOR AN AC, woman or man! Be happy that they are out of your lives! Life is toooo short to deal with their selfish crap! It’s hard enough to find a decent person, with empathy, you don’t need these people distracting you!
Aimee
on 16/11/2010 at 4:27 pm
@Fearless
My suggestion “sounds like you’re offering nothing as usual – goodbye!”
Hi Peacefrog. I would avoid having a conversation about this as it will come across a bit dramatic. The guy may be busy and you’re not in a relationship. He may be getting himself back on track because he doesn’t want to make plans that he can’t follow through on. It’s too early to be invested in a relationship although I understand if you’re feeling hopeful. Get on with your life. If and when he does attempt to reschedule, see what happens then. If all goes fine, great. If he cancels again, or you go on a date and then he takes ages to get back in touch, be very cautious and/or move on.
Findingmyself
on 15/11/2010 at 10:02 pm
Dead on Natalie! I “tried” the being friends with Mr. A/C and it only fueled my anger towards him and the way he treated me. I wasn’t being friends with him, I was doing exactly as you said, waiting for him to validate me in another manner; which he was not even close to doing. It was more painful to remain friends (I use that term loosely) after. It was in fact keeping my emotions tied into him in a way. I just couldn’t handle it. The best thing you can do is “end” it. And when we chose to end a relationship what exactly does end mean?
Definition of END
1
a : the part of an area that lies at the boundary b (1) : a point that marks the extent of something (2) : the point where something ceases to exist.
So to “end” a relationship there should lie a boundary, the point that marks something (relationship) that ceases to exist. It’s over, its done, it no longer exists, if’s FINAL!!
I had eventually remained friends with a couple of ex’s that were “healthy” relationships and we decided together that things just were not working out. So there is a difference between being friends with one ex vs another ex A/C.
If you were treated badly, being friends is NOT the way to go. It only keeps you from really moving on and forward with your life. I know first hand, I TRIED it! Not healthy in any way shape or form.
Bravo Natalie!
Lesley Binnie
on 15/11/2010 at 10:05 pm
I think we need to step back and ask
‘Are these guys wondering how we are coping?’
‘Are they losing sleep at night because they wonder if they behaved properly to us?’
‘Are they concerned about our welfare,health,peace of mind,future,hurt feelings?’
Answer: NO……..
Then take a deep breath and move on.
We see the relationship in context to ourselves. They may have been in a very different place,state of mind when they were with you. I think EUM’s in particular are skilled at the kind of doubletalk which allows them to stay emotionally outwith the relationship whilst encouraging you to give out the benefits of a relatonship eg. comfort,sex,listening,time….
In this respect the person you have to break up with is yourself. You have to realise that how you felt cannot go on….you’re wasting emotions on thin air on an invention of a person that actually doesn’t exist. Mind-numbing but true.
WastedLove
on 23/11/2010 at 10:19 am
“doubletalk which allows them to stay emotionally outwith the relationship whilst encouraging you to give out the benefits of a relatonship eg. comfort,sex,listening,time….”
This chimes perfectly with what has been happening to me. When he needs a listening ear, praise, a shoulder to lean on, help when he’s ill, encouragement, company; he summonses me, and I’ve always made myself available (because I am a bit lonely AND time-rich AND flattered that such an attractive man chose ME) But I have never felt that it would be reciprocated. And sure enough, when I was ill, it was “Aw, poor you. Email me when you’re better.” He doesn’t ask about my life, my dreams, my career.
When I am giving him all he wants and needs he’ll refer to me as his “girlfriend”. When he’s in a not-so-needy place and I dare to refer to myself as such he’ll deny that I am his g/f, thus making it clear to me that I can expect none of the “benefits” that go with being a girlfriend!
The stage I am at currently is that I’ve reduced the relationship to “just sex” (because that is all I want from him, and because it’s the only part of our association that is fair and mutual) while he is trying to drag me back to giving him all the other benefits of a relationship while still withholding and remaining “outwith”.
So yes, I totally understand what you mean!
Jenn_LI_NY
on 15/11/2010 at 10:10 pm
I’m digging this post – as I have the last dozen or so. Thank you for all this good information!!
In a nutshell: met a man online. He came on like gangbusters. On the second date he asked “what are you doing the rest of your life?” I waited several more dates before we consummated things, and despite being over-the-top with his gifts and affections, he waited, patiently.
I found it nice to be validated and (what felt like) desired. When he started pulling pouting jags and cold punitive silences when I had other things to do (parenting, events with girlfriends, family matters tending to my aging parents, civic obligations) that didn’t include him, I slowed things w a y down. Way down. He didn’t get it. He proposed, sort of, this past October by way of publishing a love poem of sorts in a local paper; the editor changed the title from what he submitted to “The Proposal” and I ran scared and bothered (but not in a good way).
10 months since we met, I’ve pulled back so far he’s doing all the calling, asking when I’m going to make time for “us” while I’m making excuses not to see him… but I can’t bring myself to sever all ties for good: because I think being friends with him will help him and his less than desirable situation… and I am afraid of hurting his feelings for a variety of reasons, many of which are red flags about his past, his broken relationships with his three adult children, and the two families he began with two separate women. In short, he is not the man for me but that doesn’t make him a bad guy. Does it?
To make things worse, he just moved into the village in which I live, and is working to take another deli job (part time) so “things get better for us” – his exact words. I know I cannot help him secure a good job nor find suitable housing for a 53 year old man with two dogs. I feel bad for him and dumping him seems cruel when he has so little going for him.
I need to look at the negative treatment that popped up when he was feeling abandoned the first time back in May: cold shoulder; stopped calling; believed things were over and said good-bye; tried to guilt me that he had nothing to do when I wasn’t around by telling me I was “the only good thing” in his life, etc. I wasn’t cool with this; in fact, it sent me further away and I haven’t come back to where we were. He, on the other hand, never left.
My self-resect needs to be taken back by me, and I should break up with him and let him go….
Cindy
on 15/11/2010 at 11:01 pm
Wow. It sounds like you are the one who needs to cut him loose for his sake. I don’t see you as the victim here, sorry. I think you need to “grow some balls”, let this man go and quit stringing him along. Be upfront and cut the ties quickly so he can move on. Unfortunately, you sound like the men we talk about here.
Aimee
on 16/11/2010 at 1:08 am
I hate to say it – but I agree with Cindy. Maybe there is some info I am missing here – but if everything you said here is what my AC was doing – PLEASE! Don’t decide how he’s going to “hurt” – that’s his biz, you are not being nce by letting it go on.
I would have slowed things down too if you were not including me in your life. He didn’t get what? Did you at all communicate verbally your hesitancy? Was he suppose to “get something” from your actions? I’m confused just by your post what you want from this man – validation at the expense of his feelings?
“while I’m making excuses not to see him… but I can’t bring myself to sever all ties for good: because I think being friends with him will help him and his less than desirable situation…” Why are you even seeing this guy? If this is the way my AC was seeing things I would be infuriated – why don’t you let him decide if being friends is what’s good for him? We are all adults here – 53 yrs old I think it should be his decision – not yours.
Sorry to be so harsh but it sounds as if you have some EU issues. My God you let this guy move near you thinking he has a future with you? Please re-evaluate what you are doing to this guy – I don’t care what his history is.
“I feel bad for him and dumping him seems cruel when he has so little going for him.” I think it’s crueler by continuing to let him think you have something that is not there.
Good luck!
Elle
on 16/11/2010 at 12:13 pm
Yeah, I agree. I would have thought, having read this site and possibly been on the other end of things, you’d recognise his behaviour and see that he’s not only hoping you’ll give him a life purpose, but amping this up because he can sense your hot and cold (hesitant) behaviour. Be compassionate! You’ve got to end things and let him have the opportunity to build his life up for himself. You’re robbing him of his time and dignity. I also sense that you may have omitted or misrepresented part of the story up here, because, as it comes across, it seems like you’re someone in relationship with someone who is fantasizing and planning around you, while you’re clearly emotionally well out the door.
Grace
on 16/11/2010 at 1:17 pm
Jenn
You are both responsible for this dodgy situation. He has been too keen too soon and is not detecting the red flags of your ambivalence. He is clingy and overly possessive. You are trying to break up with him in an EU way.
You’re going to have to end it. Tell him you don’t see a future together and the two of you need to move on. Apologise for not telling him earlier. THEN STAY OUT OF HIS LIFE.
Jenn_LI_NY
on 16/11/2010 at 9:26 pm
Thank you, thank you.
I didn’t “allow” him to move closer to me, he lived in basically a flophouse and was evicted because the landlord wants to sell. Long story, but bottom line, he was looking for several weeks and out of the last three locations he picked here.
He is aware of my ambivalence about “us”, especially after he asked me twice this summer if he could move in “just for a few months to get some cash together.” I stepped back further and we talked about this at length. I’ve come to see we are both passive aggressive in our ways, and that I have not been fair – you are all correct – in allowing myself to keep hoping, and keeping contact with him every few days is not fair.
Your replies were hard to read but I knew I’d come to the right place. Thank you. In the meantime, I will find a way to let this go, and continue learning how to be available and trusting in the future. In the beginning I was honest and open but after some odd and punitive reactions on his part I pulled away, hoping the whole time I wasn’t seeing things correctly. I was but didn’t end it when I should have.
You are all correct and I must end things.
Thank you so much.
Aimee
on 16/11/2010 at 9:43 pm
Good for you for taking such feedback! I know it is hard to hear our part, but I would rather people be honest with me than tippy toe around. I don’t learn that way.
A true friend, for me, is one who calls me on my “shit”. Not always easy to hear, but if people just sugar coat me – how am I to learn? I wish my AC would have called me on some of my shit!!!
Jenn_LI_NY
on 16/11/2010 at 10:46 pm
🙂 I have, maturely, called him on his ‘s.’ He doesn’t acknowledge there’s an issue! LOL! He has said I’ve abandoned him – when going on an overnight with women friends from work; when spending special time w/my child; going out of state for business…. times he isn’t included. Other times, in the beginning, we spent every weekend together – I wanted to do stuff outside my home, he wanted to work on my house (which I wasn’t ready for at all.) I wanted a boyfriend not a maintenance man; he wanted to move in after three months. (I wasn’t ready for that, either.)
We both have our ‘s’. I suppose it’s a matter of how much of the other person’s ‘s’ you can live with… or learning to say “no” at the first sign of a red flag.
I’m learning.
Columbia
on 15/11/2010 at 10:48 pm
Yep Nat.
All in all, i went 6 months or so total NC (at least on my part) and then put my hand back in the fire for the friendship burn.
you called it.
this time i didn’t respond to the my-crappy-life pity party with reassurances and suggestions as i would have done in the past. In fact, I didn’t respond to it at all. The second it went in that direction (one day, it took) I ignored it and stopped msg’ing.
Guess what. Haven’t heard from him since. Guess i wasn’t a good enough ego-stroke.
it’s good in it’s own way though : i can see clearly now what he found attractive about me the most….AND why he blew cold (when i got fed up with the pity party)
Bummer. But a good lesson
Kay
on 15/11/2010 at 11:06 pm
Brilliant article,Nat. This “friends”crapology never,ever,ever works.Back in my fallback girl days I was doing it all the time,trying “to shag my way back up to being the girlfriend” as you so aptly put it.It was always disastrous but I was so delusional back then and so lacking in self esteem.A lot of it is also denial.Denial of reality,denial of the inevitable and a frantic need for some sort of validation.It is a vicious circle.
Nowadays I have no contact with any of my exes.I decluttered,just as I would my closets.Like old clothes,they no longer fit the new me.And just as the feng shui principles of decluttering creates space for new energies,there is now space in the closets of my life for real friends. And boy does it feel good to be well rid of the dead wood!
Mirta
on 15/11/2010 at 11:11 pm
What if they broke off with you, and now a few months later, they want you back. How do you know that it is OK to move forward? What questions do I ask?
Help!
Mirta
Findingmyself
on 15/11/2010 at 11:40 pm
The only question I want to ask YOU is why, oh why would you want to go back with someone who dumped YOU?! To do it all over again? I’m just saying hon….if I were you-do NOT go back.
Curious, what was the reason the first time he broke it off with you? How long were you together? What age range are we talking here?
MH
on 16/11/2010 at 3:32 am
Mirta,
You have to go back to when you were together if it was a healthy relationship or the AC special talked about on this site?
If he treated you badly that should probably provide you with your answer.
AC and EUMs come back only to treat you worst.
Eathan
on 16/11/2010 at 12:50 am
I don’t comment over here often, but this is well said. Allowing the connection/friendship to continue does nothing but validate their treatment towards you. Make a clean break, make a stand for yourself and maintain your self worth.
Hopeful
on 15/11/2010 at 11:59 pm
What these men do is horrible, we are the victims. I was a victim of poor parenting, a poor choice for a husband and then on to a poor choice of getting involved with a EUM. I am alone and have been for 13 yrs. I am tired and worn out, My parents have long gone and I do not wish to be friends with either of these men. They robbed me of my good years and now I am all used up. I have learned what these men are all about, I never thought I would be sitting here staring out at the rain, alone, tired, and without hope. I tried to be a good mother and a good wife, I thought I had paid my dues and looked forward to retirement with a husband, and grandchildren all around. Now it’s shame on me for thinking that would ever be a reality. I look at my grown daughters and hope they will not end up where I am.
Kim in Minn
on 16/11/2010 at 4:15 pm
Oh Hopeful I feel for you. I would come over and visit you and we could talk and look out the window together. I know how you feel – I feel the same. I am 50 and been divorced for 23 years. Always thought I’d be married and have more kids but it never happened. The men I got involved with were all the same as the one I married. Self centered. And I put up with them. I was patient and forgiving and loving and tried to never get too pissed of. It ended the same each time where I had all this built up resentment and then one day BAM!! One last thing and made me walk out the door. Then I would stew and stew over things and wonder why they treated me the way they did, why they didn’t realize what a wonderful woman I was. The ? should have been why did I stay as long as I did. I’ve pretty much given up having a partner and that makes me very sad.
WastedLove
on 23/11/2010 at 10:34 am
Kim and Hopeful. I am also in my 50s. We should all get together, go to a hotel for the weekend, talk all weekend, cry, get drunk, sit in the bar, walk, laugh, comfort and support, commiserate and say damn the lot of ’em. Do we all live SO far apart? I’m in Sx.
Mel
on 16/11/2010 at 12:00 am
I very much need to implement the NC rule in my life. My dilema is this:
If I cut the EUAC out of my world, I will be in nearly total isolation.
I have no friends or family here, or anywhere in this country. I am very afraid to let go all the way. He wont let go all the way either. When I ask him why he wont let go, he says he does not know, there is something still there. Then he asks me why I still am hanging on and I want to scream in his face that if I let go, I have NO ONE to call on in an emergency. I cant even drive here.
I am trying to make friends , but freindships take time and work to develop like any relationship and good friends ships do not happen over night either. How in the world do I just cut him off?? It feels like I am cutting off my nose to spite my face.
But when I think of the abusive and hideous things he has done and the lies and the emotional internet affairs , I feel so angry at myself for being trapped and hanging on to him so that if a problem should arise I could call on him for something in an emergency. THE NC rule seems logical for most every single scenario, but somehow, when I read about it, I keep saying “yeah but”…
I feel like everyone will want to tell me why its important with out relating to the fact I am truly isolated with out the ASSCLOWN.
Fear, keeps me clinging, and it brews a big pot of resentment, against him but moreso, with myself. I can not seem to find my way out of this mess .
Grace
on 16/11/2010 at 9:54 pm
Mel
Even if he was the Best Man in the Whole World, you simply can’t be that dependent on someone. The bottom line is that you MUST have your own friends. You say you are in “nearly total isolation”. I hope that you do know at least one person (who isn’t someone you’ve had sex with). I would focus more energy on that person, maybe invite them round for something to eat. While you have been stewing about your AC/EUM, I can GUARANTEE you haven’t been focusing on your friendships. You simply haven’t had the energy.
If you look in a teeny tiny village in the middle of nowhwere I am sure that there is a pub or centre where people meet up. Go there. If you are in a city, the world is your oyster. Take an evening class, do some volunteer work, join a book group. Friends are not going to suddenly turn up while you are sitting at home.
He is not the answer to your problems. No man is.
WastedLove
on 23/11/2010 at 10:39 am
I agree with Grace. You may feel unable to cut him out yet but each and every day you CAN make a baby step towards being less dependent. Grace is right – even a village has a pub! There could be a WI, absolutely ANYTHING where you can meet people. Baby steps. Make it clear when you start to socialise that you don’t know anyone here and ask people to invite you to parties etc, find out what things THEY do and ask if you can come along. Three or four months down the line you WILL know people, then you won’t be able to give yourself the excuse of not knowing anyone else.
The bottom line is, if he was killed in a car crash tomorrow, you’d survive, make new friends, and move on.
Ange Fonce
on 16/11/2010 at 12:44 am
Good article as always. But there is another side to the coin. What about Women who cut the Man out of the relationship when it breaks down?
The Woman has been the abusive one?
And I have a Question to ask……………..Something I hardly ever see mentioned as a “Dating & Relationship Coach” and yet is very much there.
The children?
Yes having Your boundaries is crucial be it Man or Woman after a relationship has ended. But many of us are Mothers and Fathers and so a “Friendship” of sorts has to be maintained. And although that can be “tricky” especially if the relationship has been “Stormy and abusive.” We have to consider the well being of our children.
Natalie raised as ever very good points. But also consider this. When “Friendship” is involved with an Ex. What kind of messages does this send to any children involved?
After all are We not our children’s “Role Models!” for their future relationships?
Just a “point” to consider!
For Passion
Ange Fonce
candy B
on 16/11/2010 at 12:53 am
thanks – u inspired me to delete all the tags id put on my ex on FB from all the great piccies id taken of him and his pals. and now any new gal he meets wont see my trail of unreciprocated sweetness splattered all over his profile page! x
Actually Happy
on 16/11/2010 at 1:20 am
After 12 years of dating complete ass hats (my personal terms for ass clowns!) I had my epiphany. More like 3 in One…when it rains Ass Hats, it pours. I was the quintessential Let’s Be Friends Door Mat, continuing to let exes linger for fringe benefits while bending over backwards to look like the Good Person. I finally told them all to go f*ck themselves when the opportunities conveniently presented themselves in a 2 month period (not to be confused with hunting them down and listing off their flaws). And it felt awesome. Were they necessarily terrible people? No. I wish them happiness if their capable of it. But people are human, and that means flaws, and those flaws are bound to include taking advantage of those who let you. Think of the friend who calls you whenever she needs a ride home from the bar because she knows you care enough to not let her drive. Add a penis, narcissistic tendencies, and my own need to feel needed. If I let everyone think you’re the Bend Over Backwards Girl, I was bound to attract those who will try to take me for all I’m worth. And no one forced me to let them hang around for as long as they did. I did it for all and more of the reasons Natalie regularly lists. Mostly it was because I had a terrible intolerance for feeling disliked or having anyone displeased or mad at me. I’ve since found that feeling is not the end of the world. If I can get over feeling inconvenienced or irritated with someone, why don’t I deserve the same treatment from them?
I found this blog, and spent a good 6 months doing nothing but making myself happy. That meant hanging out with people who shared my values and truly wanted what was best for me, avoiding overindulgence in the usual vices, working hard at my job, exercising, making art, and really taking a long, hard look at my past and my choices and my accountability in every crappy situation I’d ever found myself in.
One night this past summer I went to my good friend’s party, and I met a man who I have now been dating for the past 6 months with virtually no drama. Every time I think it might veer into Ass Hat Territory, I am pleasantly surprised that we are able to communicate positively and continue to move forward in a healthy direction. I can honestly say that for the first time I am in love, it is reciprocated, and pain free.
The difference between this encounter and all other previous ones I had that were doomed from the beginning? Me. I was truly happy, confident, healthy, and commanded respect with the way I carried myself, held conversation, and ended our initial meeting and following dates. I was myself, not who I thought I had to be to keep him interested. Not bitchy, not defensive, but positive and not afraid to voice my opinions and needs, while recognizing and respecting his as well. If I thought he was saying or doing something that didn’t jive with that? I told him. And I made sure I addressed his actions without attacking him as a person (i.e. calling him an asshole, etc.), dragging in anything from the past, or projecting what had happened to me in previous relationships onto him.
It was really difficult at first. For the first month or so, I wanted to run. I felt nauseous before every date. It wasn’t due to ignoring red flags as I had in the past, but because I knew that this could be the real thing. That was even more terrifying! But after a while the uneasy feeling disappeared, and I let myself come to terms with the fact that I did not need to work so hard to let a good thing happen to me. If I was happy and healthy, and he was happy and healthy, it happens naturally.
I honestly did not think I could ever do this. It felt like a far off dream that I could never quite grasp when I was awake. But trust me…it’s possible. What makes it even better? Realizing that if everything I’d been through hadn’t happened, I would never have gotten to this point. Cheesy? Yup. But I happen to like and love the person all of those events and lessons learned from them have turned me into. 🙂
Thanks for this blog, and to everyone else who posts their stories. It’s truly been a lifesaver.
Elle
on 16/11/2010 at 12:25 pm
Thank you for writing this. Am in the final stage of that six month period, building, growing, exercising boundaries, feeling pretty great most of the time, focusing on my loves, but I am still only meeting EUMs and/or being an EUM, so have a little longer to go, but I love the idea of meeting someone when I am already in love with myself (in a steady, gentle, genuine way).
Reveal
on 16/11/2010 at 4:15 pm
Awesome post…congrats on your happiness. This is a truly inspiring story. I am just into the first month of making myself happy and doing the long, hard thinking process about my past. Thanks for sharing your story…
jennynic
on 16/11/2010 at 8:05 pm
Hi Actually Happy. Your post was good to read and inspiring. I have not felt like dating since my break up with the AC ( 5 months) and have felt disillusioned with the whole dating scene. You wrote about being yourself and not trying to be what you thought would interest him, and not being defensive or bitchy. I have realized that I come across as defensive when asserting myself and putting my boundaries into action instead of being positive and self assured. It helps me to hear how you applied positive communication and healthy boundaries and it worked, and you didn’t have to be any angry man hating bitch to get your point across. I don’t hate men but am very very wary right now. I am still not quite ready to date but you have given me some goals to work toward. I love all of Natalie’s advice, and read this website almost daily, but it is good to see it in action with positive results. Good for you! And for Natalie’s post on staying friends, I am a firm believer in cutting all ties with someone who treated you badly, and didn’t lose any sleep or have remorse. People make mistakes and there should be room for forgiveness but when someone hurts you and doesn’t care or is morally bankrupt, being friends sounds only beneficial to them. Why bother? Haven’t you been drug through the mud enough?
ph2072
on 16/11/2010 at 1:20 am
Been there, done that, the friends route usually doesn’t work. I don’t speak to any of my exes except one, and even our contact is limited. He’s the one who treated me the best and even still, I set boundaries. I’ve ignored the other ones for anywhere from over 2 years and up, and I plan to keep it that way for life.
Looking back, it’s amazing that I was friends with those assclowns in the first place. They were usually the ones who offered “friendship”, not me. But their friendship wasn’t worth shit either, so what was the point of their offers? Dummies. 😐 (I shouldn’t have accepted; I was hoping, with a couple of them, that they’d see my worth and come back around. Boy, was that a joke.)
I’m a firm believer in cut-offs like a guillotine – clean-cut, short, sweet and to the point. Assclowns don’t deserve any more energy than what you’ve already given them. Give yourself and your TRUE friends that energy.
CBH
on 16/11/2010 at 3:33 am
Is it really possible to be “just friends” with an ex, even if it treated you reasonably well and enough time have passed since you broke up?
I doubt it. Just had a quarrel with my girlfriend over this issue. One of her Ex called her and invited her to have lunch. I don’t like the idea at all. I know the guy is married. Why is he -out of the blue- calling an Ex “to have lunch with”? What do they have to talk about now?
In view of the discomfort I expressed, my girlfriend decided to decline the guy’s move.
Am I too insecure and paranoid?
Minky
on 16/11/2010 at 10:52 am
I don’t know about this particular case, but i know a lot of people who are still friends with their exes, me included. It is possible if the guy is decent, the relationship was healthy and ended amicably and there is actually some benefit to staying friends (i.e. they treat you with care and respect).
I get a lot out of my friendship because i lived with the guy for 5 years, he knows me inside out, cares for my welfare, we fell out of love so there’s no romantic feelings at all, no boundaries crossed EVER and we are both always there for the other if ever either of us needs it.
There is no hard and fast rule with these things. You have to judge each situation seperately.
Grace
on 16/11/2010 at 12:19 pm
He’s married, does his wife know he’s wants lunch with an ex? With married men I would stay clear, unless you are 110% sure that he has no dodgy intentions. And even then, is it worth it? What exactly has he got to add to her life?
CBH
on 16/11/2010 at 2:37 pm
Thanks for your reply. My girlfriend, her Ex and the latter’s wife went to high school together, so they know to one another long ago. They are “friends” in Facebook and Messenger.
My GF says the guy’s wife wouldn’t like the idea of her BF “having lunch” with her Ex-GF.
The guy was my GF’s sweetheart at high school. They broke up. They were together again during some years at College. They broke up again. My GF told me the guy had a hold on her for some time. She had two flings with him after breaking up, when she was dating other guys (the last fling was about six years ago). She says she regrets it and it was not worth it.
The last time the guy tried a move with her, like four years ago, just before getting married, she declined his offer. They have been in touch ever since.
My GF thinks there is nothing wrong with being friend of one’s Exs. Perhaps that’s true, but I don’t like the guy. Even tough I trust and love my GF I don’t like the idea of her meeting up with the guy.
This is not an issue in my current relationship, but still I am glad I can vent it in this forum. Thanks in advance for your comments.
Minky
on 16/11/2010 at 9:09 am
My ex EUM asked to be friends after he dumped me by email. I said no, that it was too complicated for me, that i suspected he didn’t really mean it and wished him all the best (this was before i found this site). I wanted to end it amicably as we have mutual friends and hang out at the same places sometimes. I sometimes regret the fact that i was so nice to him – i should have called him every name under the sun and sometimes i wish i had, but that’s just not me and i think that’s undignified in its own way. I think the fact that neither of us has made any contact whatsoever in nearly 3 months says it all – we both know now that the other has moved on. I’ve mantained my dignity and he’s still a waste of space!
Oh and he’s deleted all our mutual friends from facebook, people he knew for years before he met me. That’s the kind of ‘friend’ he is. I have lost nothing :).
At the moment i am feeling peaceful and happy. This article has blasted away that last niggling bit of doubt i had about not having him in my life ever – this was the last thread keeping me hanging on. Yes he was fun and i had deep feelings for him – but he should not be in my life for so many reasons. Hurray!
Audrey
on 16/11/2010 at 12:57 pm
Grace; hi grace, i think i need some help from you guys. you know i was meeting my guy on sat. . he told me he had been emailing wife for last two weeks ( so i figured that was why he was still ringing me and contacting me last week) and she’s told him she’s not coming back and to find someone else. he said he was really happy with me when we were together. So we spent few hours sat together and he’s been ignoring me since. WTF? i rang him sun evening for quick chat, he made excuse he had visitors, texted me later as usual 11.00p.m saying they had only left now. at practice monday, he seemed fine. told me he’d ring me later. no phone call. text at 11.00 saying he’s just home, he’ll talk to me tomorrow. Man, the coldness of him and the ignoring is after making my blood run cold. i feel so down today. i know i should have known better than to believe in him.
Grace
on 16/11/2010 at 6:01 pm
Audrey
Sit down and write a list of all the times he has let you down. Look at it and ask yourself if this is what you want in your life. All your patience, love, determination etc has failed spectacularly to turn him into the ideal, or even tolerable partner. He can’t even make a simple phone call when he said he would. He is not worthy of you. You can;t MAKE him worthy of you. He is what he is. From where I’m standing I see a married man who hasn’t got the balls to get divorced, who is stringing along two women, is deceitful and unreliable.
Please don’t waste any more time on him. I’m 45 and DEEPLY REGRET my 20+ years in the EUM/AC wilderness. Best thing I ever did was cut every last one of them out of my life.
Audrey
on 16/11/2010 at 2:08 pm
i think he is punishing me for attempting to cut contact with him eventhough i told him it was too painful for me to be in contact with him when i enjoyed being with him, etc. i mean if he had been in contact with his wife (they’re living apart for two years) why didn’t he tell me that and I wouldn’t have gone through the emotional ringer?
Gillian
on 16/11/2010 at 4:08 pm
Natalie, you are amazing. Thank you so much for sharing your words of wisdom with us! Now, let us all be action of wisdom. I have not contacted my ex (cheated on me) for about 3 weeks and plan to never speak to him again, even though it is hard…At this point I am just fighting the thoughts of him and her (the girl he was cheating on me with who he now lives with)…letting go is really hard, but NC is a MUST! Anyone who has not honored you is not worthy of you. Period. Keep on keepin on ladies and let’s change these patterns of allowing assclowns into our beds!
Kim in Minn
on 16/11/2010 at 6:58 pm
A big problem for me too is thinking something is wrong with me – I am faulty… that for some reason I don’t measure up. The guy is being an asshat because he doesn’t like that I don’t dust the corners in my house or that I got drunk that day or the pink flannel sheets I love all winter look like pepto bismal. Ha! Downward spiral thinking of all the mistakes I made and ignoring all the time I spent waiting for him to give me some attention.
Betha
on 16/11/2010 at 8:14 pm
I have done a lot of stupid things considering relationships. But I’ve never been on the “let’s be friends” road. I told my ex eum that I never stay friends with exes, and he said “Oh, you will be with me, they all do”. Indeed he has a lot of female friends (mostly former GFs). And hardly any male friends. This was a red flag for me, I should have listened to my gut! This guy, I call him T, was always busy with pleasing his ex wife, ex GFs, and another female friend. In fact he realised that he didn’t take enough care of me.
With my ex husband, I am not an enemy. But we are not friends. We just talk about the kids that we have together. And that is perfect for me. The ex eum (T) found that strange, but in the same time he admired us, that we could keep such a distance between us.
T wanted us to be friends after I broke up. But I don’t even feel tempted. And now when I read this posts, my decission is even stronger. NC rules!
K
on 16/11/2010 at 8:20 pm
So glad I found this site. The friendship trap is truly the “Last stand” of the AH. I met mine online (1st mistake) 5 years ago and even though I saw every red flag imaginable, I still kept making excuses, Married twice and separated from the second…still separated to this day and over time it was clear he not only couldn’t finish out any ANYTHING in his life, not just his marriage. Just couldn’t take responsibility for anything that happened, and told me the first time I paid for a plane ticket (I always paid plane fares there, he never tried to visit me) he’d insisted he was SOOOO honest with his first wife, when he cheated on her he had admitted it to her, so it was her fault she didn’t forgive him…huh? Sometimes he’d bend my ear for two hours about all the horrible things his second wife had supposedly done (Like to get her side sometime), and I had a pay as you go phone so it was always on MY dime! Fast forward to about a year ago after I’d put up with the disappearing acts, constant put downs, never calling, not even emailing, rages etc, I put down boundaries. It was always talking about the weather, but once I tried to talk reality, that sent him into a tailspin. Within two weeks, he tries to tell me he’d seen a therapist who told him his depressions were caused by me not being close to him (of course it was my fault). I’ve never been to a therapist, but I know enough to know unless they flunked psych 101, they don’t make judgments in two friggin’ weeks. During his two weeks of “therapy” (again, not contacting me) I had found him on a social site listed as single and looking to date and he’d filled that profile 2 years prior to me finding it, and had opened it literally hours after I’d visited. I had asked many times if he was on any social sites and of course he lied about it. That’s all the lying and cheating I need. He played the friends card stating how important my friendship was to him so I tried that, but the misogyny and disrespect continued…he was asking for nude pics (of course I refused such stupid requests!), treating me with the same disrespect and generally it was the same crap, different diaper. I was honestly learning to hate him! When he had a heart attack last April I was actually sorry he’d lived! I already knew he was narcissistic…pegged every check point for that and always treated all of his friends as expendable and replaceable. I got the feeling he did it just to sooth the guilt if he had any, but it was just keeping me stuck. Since throughout the relationship, he’d NEVER remembered my birthday (Nov 9) I decided that was the cutoff…call it a gift to myself. I figured if he didn’t remember it this time I’d just cut contact. He didn’t try to call, and even though he was online sending email jokes all day, he never said a simple happy birthday. I changed my email without explanation (AKA slammed the door) as of 12:01 AM on the 10th and cut him off. I’ve been told I should have given him an explanation because it’s the nice thing to do, but I’m tired of doing things because it’s the nice thing to do…I didn’t owe him an explanation pure and simple. Let someone else waste their nice on him. I found this site on my birthday, and I must say it was the catalyst to push myself to just let it go. The minute I dropped that email addy, I really felt like a huge albatross had been lifted off me, and I never lost sleep or felt badly about it. He’s seldom in my thoughts now and having no contact he isn’t looking into my life, and I don’t care about his. Thank you for the push I needed to get back to sanity! 🙂 As an aside, he was one of those who had to tell me every chance he got how honest he was. It’s always been my experience if they are telling you that, they aren’t. If the evidence says otherwise run like your hair is on fire! Fact is, the only true predictor of future behavior is past behavior. When people get caught out in lies they don’t learn not to lie…they learn how to lie better next time. The only plus I can actually come up with in this relationship is that I didn’t catch anything…that’s an awfully short nail to hang your hat on.
Aimee
on 16/11/2010 at 9:31 pm
“it was the same crap, different diaper. I was honestly learning to hate him! When he had a heart attack last April I was actually sorry he’d lived!”
LOVE the ‘same crap, different diaper”.
God please forgive me, but I am LMAO on this one!! Mine didn’t remember my bdays either. Once he realized he forgot – he wanted to give me his used surround sound system he couldn’t sell at his garage sale – wow I am so special!!
K
on 16/11/2010 at 11:19 pm
A used surround around that he couldn’t off in a tag sale?? Jees, can’t these guys get one cell in the frontal lobe firing? Last year right after the break up and he was still ringing me weekly (I have a landline and wasn’t spending anything more on calls) he sends this ecard…on the 3rd. Rings me later and I told him my birthday was on the 9th, not the third. He says he could only remember it was on a single digit date, but both of his ex’s are on double digit dates in Nov. He said I was the only one he sent anything to so I guess that was supposed to make me feel special. He still didn’t call or send any email ON my birthday. Get this though…on the 10th, he calls just to tell me about some woman from London who was in his email harem that had been in the states for a few days and he’d had lunch with her. Then just a couple of months ago, some other woman his son knew was having a B’day party he was invited to. He didn’t even know this woman, but since the heart attack he lost his job, hasn’t been able to even draw disability and is using his retirement to live…and at 58 not many future prospects. He said he had purchased an ipod for her, and how he had agonized over whether he should afford one but did anyway cuz “she’s a good ol’ girl”. Moron doesn’t even know her! Then after the party all he could do was complain about all the rude drunks… the only thing that matters to him is impressing people who don’t know him. If he already has you in his web, why bother? The only reason I stuck around 5 years is because it was long distance so we didn’t see each other all that often (I couldn’t afford a plane fare every whip-stitch!). Had I been exposed to a daily diet of him for any real length of time, I woulda been outta there in a months time tops!
Aimee
on 17/11/2010 at 4:20 pm
“the only thing that matters to him is impressing people who don’t know him. If he already has you in his web, why bother?”
This is how my ex is/was. I couldn’t figure out for the life of me. He’s telling me he loves me, but treated the neighbors better than he treated me. He remembered their bdays, bought them gifts, etc. Seemed to treat his family well too – when I confronted him on it – he said they were “different” relationships, that I was not family – wow – I had thought of him as my family – we were talking about living together, building a home, etc. He treated me like crap!!
freeatlast
on 17/11/2010 at 12:44 am
I remember thinking that I would never get over the AC. I would do NC and think I’d moved on but as soon as he came to see me my head would be a mess again. However, I can honestly say I feel completely free of emotion for him now (It has taken time though).
He is very good looking but I know he has nothing to offer so he can do what he likes as long as he isn’t in my life any more.
Great post, very true. If I hadn’t found Baggage Reclaim when I did I’m certain that I would still be caught up with him in some way.
Hopeful
on 17/11/2010 at 2:12 am
Wonderful posts and comments! Yes, we must hold tight to self respect, it may be the only thing that will keep us from making fools of ourselves and enabling more of their bad behavior. I hurt so much now I think really coming into acceptance and reality. I was touched by the posts of many, especially fearless. I think of it as the 50 ways to leave your AC’S, kind of like the Paul Simon song, “50 ways to leave your lover”. I tell myself there is really nothing to fear because NOTHING is what I had anyway. Great job Natalie and ladies!
Tulipa
on 18/11/2010 at 2:52 am
I wish there was a time line for this and once you reach a certain point you think wow I really couldn’t give one iota about him anymore it is hard to know that I am still invested in him though I have no contact with him I think what would I do if he called me right now and sometimes my answer is I would get involved all over again and other time it is I would tell him sorry am busy bye..its such a see saw. So should I give myself a hard time because on the odd day if he calls I would get back involved and waste time wondering what hes up to? Or just accept it is part of the journey of letting go and moving on?
Lydia
on 18/11/2010 at 1:19 pm
Im very grateful for this website I found yesterday, as Im going through the most horrendous time with a man who is EU. After a 7 month relationship and all we had, he simply jumped our of the vagon when the commitment seemed impossible to dodge anymore (it was becoming serious, in his own words). In a matter of days he found a woman in a bar and forgot all about us, only to start emailing and phoning again saying that he has no commitment to her either, it is nothing for him. Im in terrible pain about the whole thing. We were very intimate and I thought we were friends as well as lovers. He got to the point of denying that our relationship eve happened, after getting to know my family and clearly asking me to be his girlfriend and using the term often refering to myself.
I need to go NC but the booklet does not download.He has emotionally abused me, blames me for everything, alternates loving emails with hateful ones, sweet phone calls with horrendous ones, is now sayingI have destroyed the relationship and his feelings for me when he was the person who did all that,actually going to find another woman while still in the relationship, not being expressive emotionally(did not like holding hands or kissing), only expressed feelings in bed. Help anyone!
snowboard
on 18/11/2010 at 3:39 pm
Hi Lydia,
Ohhhh goodness, this man seems very EU and commitment phobic. I would completely cut him out of your life right now and never look back. Yes, it hurts, and I’m sure he has a lot of charming qualities which you will miss, but he is treating you TERRIBLY. No lady deserves this treatment.
Terry
on 18/11/2010 at 9:51 pm
I read this before I made themistake of trying to reclaim a friendship with what you call an “assclown”! I didn’t realize what I would be doing until I read your blog. I soooo agree with it. Your explanation of why we want this is perfect but your discussion of why it is so bad, is even better! Thank you for stopping me from making a big mistake!
Kathy
on 18/11/2010 at 10:59 pm
Hi Everyone….
I must start this off with a disclaimer that I am venting and this seems the best place to do so before I do something really stupid. Any feedback is so very appreciated…
I read this post along with many of the other posts on this site and I know what the best thing to do is for my situation. You see, I was ‘dating’ well actually just sleeping with and getting drunk with this guy since May. We started legitimately dating and shortly after I moved to a city about an hour and a half away. We’ve remained in contact, him coming and staying with me for the weekends and vice versa. Partying, going out to eat, having amazing sex…the lot of it. He had outright told me he couldn’t give me what I wanted which I thought was a relationship with him. I settled for the crumbs he threw my way and I was cool with it because I am here in a new city and I realized I didn’t want to be tied down afterall. It’s never been my style to have a strictly booty call relationship and I truly cared for this guy but just let him set the tone that it was all fun and games. I looked forward to him visiting and we had fun. Then things got confusing. We weren’t committed yet had agreed we would tell one another if someone slept with someone else. I always believed that he was truthful and I was truthful with him. I did sleep with someone else and told him shortly after (which was a few weeks ago). He didn’t seem too angry but also not thrilled. Deep down I wanted him to be hurt and he wasn’t. I was back in the town I had moved from last weekend for a friends baby shower and I ran in to him at an art show which was such a crazy coincidence. I would tell yall if I had planned that to happen. Long story short we spent the entire weekend together. I left my phone charger and needed to use his phone, went to use it and saw several texts from another girl. “Why aren’t you calling me back, are you mad?” and then the worst “Baby you felt so good from behind me last night. Cant wait to do it again honey” or some ridculous thing like that. I took his phone and threw it against the wall. I had been honest with him and he was lying. Probably for awhile. I figured out who she was and turns out she lives in the city I now live in. I actually know who she is.
My question to you all is do I tell her that I was with him all weekend (when she was calling) and that he has most likely been going from one house to the next? OR do I just let him keep smelling himself and doing his thing with her? I don’t want him back in my life and I could care less if I see him again. And admittedly I am angry, hurt and feeling like an idiot. I guess before I send that message to her I wanted to get your feedback on what you would do if you were in my situation.
WastedLove
on 23/11/2010 at 9:23 am
I bet everyone will say just walk away, NC. But getting revenge by telling her is very tempting. It is also true to say that she, too, is a woman and a sister, and deserves to know who he is and how he behaves, so she can save herself. But doing so just perpetuates your involvement with this man, so the sensible thing is, walk away.
susiejay
on 21/11/2010 at 5:26 pm
Right from the word ‘go’ after that AC/EUM stood in front of me, and told me in so many words he had no further use for me, but i could remain a ‘friend’ and act as a cleaner to tidy his house when he moved on to live with a relative (words still fail me here about that statement – cheeky git), i took the view that despite how i had truly loved this guy, i would never, ever, want anything more to do with him – and i have kept my word. Why on earth would i want to stay ‘friends’ with a slimeball like him who cheated, lied and treated me like something from underneath his shoe once he decided i had to be dispensed with?
I am just glad i dont live by the same conditions he does and i have morals and integrity – things he would know nothing about if he was smacked in the face, Nope, i have stayed NC for 4 months and even though i sound flippant about the way things ended after 3 years, i am determined that i get on with my life.
I have been out on a few dinner dates with men, so far, so good, i realise there are decent men out there who ask nothing in return off you but love your company. It’s a whole new world to be wined and dined and have interesting conversation which doesnt include a sexual element straight away which is what the AC/EUM did on our first meeting – disrespectful pig! I should have seen the red flags then on reflection.
So, i go onwards and upwards. I shall never forget the AC/EUM, he was a part of my life, for 3 years, but i do feel sorry for anyone he may take up with in the future (well i found out he had someone while he was with me), he will never be able to restrain himself from cheating, lying and just being a total a*sehole. Not my responsibility anymore and you know what – the feeling feels great!!
My days are now happier, i am looking forward to Christmas, and i wish everyone of you suffering from the way these idiots treated you will finally see the light and overcome the disgusting way you were treated. (((((hugs everyone))). xx
susiejay
on 25/11/2010 at 3:47 pm
I find it absolutely incomprehensible why anyone would want to stay ‘friends’ with an ex who treated them like something under their shoe at the time of break up. I cannot understand either why anyone would just want to stay ‘friends’ to have sex with them knowing that they would not be getting any other type of decent treatment or benefit an otherwise ‘girlfriend’ would get especially if they were the ‘girlfriend’ before being cast aside for someone else. How awful anyway to keep seeing someone you loved with someone else and as for sharing them sexually – thats a definite no-no for me personally.
What has happened to the self esteem of the women who allow these men who disrespect them in this way because these ex’s are being disrespectful. It saves these men from having to pay for their sexual needs while degrading the ex who they obviously could not care less about anyway otherwise they would not be a ex.
Ladies if you are not good enough for them in any other way, wise up and kick them out of your life completely. Sex is bonding and you will never get over them if you allow it to happen in the hope they may just begin wanting you back again. If thats the mindset it will be a rude awakening – they will not want you back, they have moved on to another victim and you are being used and shabbily treated.
It hurts like hell on earth to break away completely and go NC initially as i know but believe me it cannot be as bad as hanging on in there when these men are treating you like the trash they put out weekly and dont have any respect or care about you if you have just become a booty call to them.
Once a relationship is over, especially if the ex has told you in no uncertain terms they dont want you anymore for whatever reason their twisted minds can conjure up at the time they tell you, it is finito, move on out of there, dont hang around to be subjected to abuse and make yourself feel cheap while
they get an ego stroke, a shag or anything else they would not give you when in a one to one relationship.
amanda marie
on 25/11/2010 at 6:44 pm
it’s Thanksgiving and i am sitting here so upset about my ex eum (we broke up four days ago). i just keep coming back to baggagereclaim to convince myself that i am so much better and deserve so much more. i am so sick of hearing him say “you are an amazing girl, i just feel like i could never make you happy” or “i have been so sad about this, it’s all i’ve been thinking about the last few days” or the best “i know i will regret what i did”. he has asked me why we can’t be friends and still see one another…are you kidding me with this? why, so you don’t have to feel like such a piece of sh*t?
i appreciate this blog so much. i hate that there are so many of us that are going through this however, i know i’m not alone in this quest to find a men that will treat us how we deserve to be treated.
i am nervous because i know i will probably see him out tonight. i did last night and i blew up at him. i couldn’t help myself lol! he deserved to be told that he is a toolbox and has mistreated me this entire time. and that i feel like i’ve wasted a year and a half of my life (which is partly my fault i know). i have read the other post that states that it really doesn’t help to list all their faults because they don’t listen. i get that and completely understand. my switch flipped.
thank you natalie for creating this blog…..i know i will be a regular from now on.
susiejay
on 25/11/2010 at 8:00 pm
@ amanda marie
Please do not be tempted to be a ‘friend’ with this, hopefully, ex-EUM, they are simply not worth it. I did not know about the ‘friends’ card until i came to Nats BR site but i turned down the invitation from my ex AC/EUM and i am so glad i did after reading how it is only to the ex’s advantage to have you as a ‘friend’.
You see, they can keep tabs on you, see what you are doing with your life since they disposed of you, and see if you have moved on to someone else. They dont want you, but they dont want someone else to have you, or they want to keep you onside so that they can call you up when they are feeling unloved or need someone to sleep with etc. Selfish gits!
Stay strong, everything your ex said to you, mine said to me and more BUT i cannot now trust that he was not lying anyway, so what he did say over the 3 years together means nothing to me now and i am staying NC. I know its hard to do when you think of some of the good times you had together, but trust me its the only way to keep your sanity by ignoring their approaches.
Healing One
on 28/11/2010 at 1:43 pm
I have so appreciated this blog and fortunately I found it as I was going through a breakup. I did the no contact thing and as hard as it was, I found renewed self-respect and connection to myself. I put myself and my healing first and it has been amazing. After 6 weeks of NC (he contacted me on my b’day and got a cursory reply from me), on Thanksgiving day–as I was on vacation in Paris–he texted me: “I miss you so much it hurts. I need you”. This, coming from a guy who withdrew from me and essentially made me break up with him. After hours of trying to figure out if or how to respond–because part of me wanted to go running back–I simply told him I was in Paris, he broke my heart and there was nothing left to say. It was simple, honest, direct….and basically made him ‘get’ that I will not be toyed with.
It is hard because I really did love him–until the sheep’s clothing came off and there was a wolf underneath. It took five months, but I’m glad it happened. I have learned over the years that as hard at it is, the truth is the truth and it must be faced. He is not the guy I thought he was and he never will be.
Thanks again for hosting this site. It has been a source of strength for me.
Lynn
on 03/12/2010 at 9:19 am
So needed this. Just got another email tonight from the ex, with whom I have not spoken since the long breakup/closure talk in September. I returned one email in October after receiving many calls to say: I said no contact. Now he emails on major holidays to say how much he misses me. Tonight is an anniversary (which he has misremembered the details of) and now he speaks of being ‘afraid’ of this anniversary time of the year. I was his best friend, he says. I know I was. He wasn’t mine.
Either way he continues to prove to me why I broke it off: I state my wishes, he hears something entirely different, busts my boundary and claims I didn’t communicate clearly.
What is your opinion on email blocking? I’ve heard keep the emails just in case it escalates and you need evidence that he kept pursuing. I’d have less drama if I just didn’t see the notes.
WastedLove
on 09/12/2010 at 9:35 am
This is where I am stuck at the moment. I reduced the relationship to sex-only, then I stopped the sex. Now we are supposedly platonic friends, but I haven’t seen him for two weeks and I miss his physical presence so much, and the sex even more.
I’ve been browsing the men on internet dating sites and realised I am just looking for a clone of him. What a saddo I am, eh?
I’m still phoning him every few days, we exchange emails, all very polite and friendly; we speak as though we expect to meet, though I’ve deferred these meetings with excuses. He’s complete passive and just goes along with whatever I want. If I told him I want NC he’d just accept it, and some would say that his indifference is reason enough to go NC.
I’ve read Nat’s blog at the top of this page and it says IF he treated you well it’s OK to be friends, but others on here have advised me to go NC. It depends on the definition of “treated you well”. He thinks he did, and I don’t think he intended me any harm. But I have been obsessed and distraught for months. He doesn’t realise how much he’s hurt me just by being EU, and a narc (NPD). Part of his condition is that he has no empathy; he cannot see things from anyone else’s point of view. So the question is, should he be “blamed” for the emotional damage he inflicted on me, or should I just see him as someone with a mental disorder, make allowances for that and have an arm’s-reach friendship with him?
I don’t know what to do. I am in no man’s land. Each time I think about NC I panic. I’d feel so empty inside if he wasn’t in my life at all. I have very few friends, almost none that live locally am quite isolated and get lonely at times. Even though he only ever wants to talk about himself, that feels better to me than not seeing him at all.
I’m just treading water at the moment, biding my time, keeping contact but not seeing him, hoping I’ll get increasingly used to not seeing him, or that it’s OK to see him.
In time my mind will work out what it really wants.
annied
on 18/01/2011 at 9:59 pm
omg! I’m the Queen of trying to be nice and be his friend. I know you’ve written about this before, but I really GET this. I felt SORRY for the butthead. I thought I’d be nice and try to be friends – or it was my hidden agenda talking, that I’d be so great as a friend, he’d want to have a relationship with me … you name it. The difference this time is as you wrote, NML, all those other times, he must’ve thought he wasnt such an a-hole after all. He did throw it in my face, that I came back. He wont ever get to again. He is out of my life forever.
Aimee
on 18/01/2011 at 11:57 pm
@Annied
The sad thing is, there are alot of them out there that feel & believe that if you stay friends – they can’t be all that bad, she/he stayed friends with me. To me – that’s an insensitive coward. My ex always said “all my ex’s want me back” – and he stays friends with girls HE KNOWS still want more – that’s cruel. He does not give a rats a** about the other persons feelings. He kept trying to be my friend, but I said no. Either we’re in or we’re out – I am much better OUT Thank you!!
Lipstick and Playdates
on 19/01/2011 at 1:47 am
Great article and so true. Back in my younger days, I always tried to stay friends with my ex’s. BIG mistake. Ruined my self esteem. Won’t do that again.
Chi-Dawn
on 28/01/2011 at 4:57 pm
This article really made me feel validated! Thank you for writing this and all your other articles…they are helping me immensely! I was seeing a guy for about 6-8 weeks and it was pretty intense. I knew the moment I met him that he was the one for me. I never felt that way before about a guy – ever! A couple weeks ago he told me he wants to be just friends, that he’s feeling pressure towards marriage and commitment and he thinks we should take things slow. However, when I clarified “just friends”, he said we are both free to see other people. That’s not slow, that’s stop. I was crushed, I mourned, cried, I got angry, and through it all he was so thoughtful and nice to answer any of my questions. What a nice guy, huh? It took me a while to accept or realize he isn’t interested in me anymore, for whatever reason; but once I figured it out, I realized I couldn’t go on being friends with him. I told him I didn’t think I could be just friends, and that I needed to put a time limit on this. He whined a little and sounded upset, which made me feel good; so I agreed. However, the next morning I woke up at the same time his alarm goes off and just burst into tears. I realized I couldn’t do this. About a week after he told me he isn’t interested in me any more, he told me he thinks I am using our “relationship” (or lack thereof) to validate myself or find happiness. I would argue that I was only looking to him to validate that the things he previously said to me were real (clearly they weren’t). So in spite of his many attempts to keep me as a friend, I told him I can’t be friends, he can find another friend. I realized if he doesn’t care about my feelings now, how hurt I am, he isn’t my friend. And like magic, my anxiety, tension, and all the stress that had been making me physically ill just left. I felt so validated when I read this article and realized I am healthy for acting on my instinct to not be friends with this guy! If he did have any real feelings for me, he will get his act together and figure out how to stop being emotionally unavailable. Until then, I will go with “he just isn’t that into me” and find someone who is. I am a pretty happy person, but this deep abiding desire to be loved by a man has always been with me. I hope this is a normal human quality, and I hope to meet that man in the near future. But part of me still hopes it will be him. Does this mean I am still being unhealthy?
khemmy
on 06/08/2012 at 5:21 pm
what can i say? I LOVE DIS!I LOVE DIS SOOOOOO MUCH!
Kathleen
on 11/08/2012 at 7:02 pm
WOW this article was just fantastic!
I was just in a situation where I had agreed to remain friends with my ex, because he said “I could really use a friend right now.”Everyday was horrible I felt like I was treating myself less then human, I felt as though I was saying to him “Yes, that’s right I have no self respect at all.” The break up was not good and he had said some nasty things to me. The friendship request came two hours after the break up.
Being friends with him was like being demoted from CEO to janitorial service
So after twenty days of feeling like I was betraying myself I told him that even though I love him and care about him I love me and care about me way more to do this to myself and now it’s time to move on.
It has been two weeks and yes the days have been sad at times, but for the most part I am now properly healing and getting better by the day. 🙂
runnergirl
on 12/08/2012 at 6:02 am
Hi Kathleen,
Good for you. And thank you for your comment. I missed this valuable post. Remember, don’t let him “jig your lock”. Totally love that phrase. It is wonderful you are choosing you.
Someday these exes will be “somebody we used to know”!
Kathleen
on 13/08/2012 at 11:47 pm
Hello,
I posted the other day. Thank you runnergirl for the reply!
I must say I absolutely love you Natalie.
I have always been a strong minded person, but sometimes when you HAVE to make hard decision it’s nice to have the support that I am doing the right thing by me and for me.
I have a few girl friends that think I am making a bad choice because in their eyes, he just has a few problems he needs to work through, he’s going through a tough time blah blah blah…
As I see it and as I’ve told them these so called issues he has did not just appear for him. they have been there and he should have thought twice before getting into a relationship with me until they were fixed.
I do not want a man I have to repair because he’s had a few bad moments I’ve had some bad moments as well and I don’t take them out on people who care about me.
This may sound strange… but sometimes when I’m feeling alone and that maybe just maybe my friends are right I sit quietly and meditate and I think about a large open field of wild flowers and in that field is a better version of me and she hugs me. this is my soul thanking me for not letting her down and weakening her
mehri jooyande
on 16/08/2012 at 9:08 pm
Would you please help me? I broke up 7 months ago. I hadn’t read this article. So I accepted his friendship. Then I changed my mind. But again I felt bad and asked him to contact. I changed my mind six times and made a fool of myself. At last he told me to make a firm decision and I pretended to be completely well and said in the past I was angry, but now he can contact whenever he likes. What should I do? If again I tell him not to contact, I will sound completely stupid.
grace
on 16/08/2012 at 9:49 pm
Aw Mehri
Tell him – via email or text (yeah I know, I know):
“I’m sorry to change my mind again but I’ve thought about it and it’s better for me to move on. We’ve tried being friends but it hasn’t worked out. I wish you the best. Mehri”
AND THEN DON’T CONTACT HIM AGAIN!!!
Kathleen
on 18/08/2012 at 7:42 am
Let me ask you this Mehri, Do you feel more of a fool being his friend, or not being his friend?
For me I felt like a fool being my ex’s friend because I felt that it was going to most definitely stifle the process of moving on and getting better.
You should do some nice things for yourself!!! I myself went out and purchased a new outfit nothing to pricey, I went an had my eyebrows threaded for the first time a little painful, but they look great now, and I went and had my nails done, nothing major just a nice red polish and top coat…
Do not punish yourself…Be good to yourself!!!
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I’m in the process of separating from my husband of 22 years, and although I am well past the grieving stage and am eager to move on with my life, I’m wondering how to handle just this part of the process because we have two children (15 and 11) and have to remain in contact to share parenting issues.
Part of the problem is that he turns to me for decisions he really should be making himself (I “mothered” him for our entire marriage and am drained), and is also very unpredictable and immature emotionally, so we wind up having a lot more contact than I want.
I want to be friendly without being friends so that my kids see an example of two (ostensibly) adults who might not be able to live together but are a united front when it comes to raising their children. Who might not love each other, but love their children and can be kind enough to each other in order to make their kids’ lives pleasant.
His threats of my winding up broke (I’ve been a homemaker for all of the time I’ve been a parent, but have a piddling income as a freelancer) only serve to piss me off, yet he tells me that his therapist has said that anger is a natural part of the process and that I should be patient with him. My feeling is that he can take his anger and put it where the sun doesn’t shine. I am working very hard to establish boundaries again (I had had my expectations managed down to nil, so it’s like learning a new skill), and I told him that while it may be natural to be angry, he wasn’t permitted to take it out on me. This upsets him greatly, but I am trying to stick to my guns.
Any thoughts on when you CAN’T go NC?
Hi
You can go NC in every way that counts for you. Separate out the children related issues (when he picks them up, schooling, maintenance etc) and refuse to engage with him on any other level. When he starts going on about his therapist etc smile sweetly and make an excuse to leave / close the door etc. As long as you engage in the dynamic he will continue to demand engagement from you. He is the father of your children but you have no reason/need to have a relationship with him outside the context. You can be cordial and polite but you do not need to be his “friend”.
Good luck!
Very well said! This stops the line being blurred by manipulation of the children. He has to learn to stand on his own two feet.
I’m learning from you Natalie 🙂
@no longer waiting around, i am in such a similar situation to yours. i think when kids are involved, if you can remain friends, acknowledging the beautiful kids you have created together (no matter how imbalanced the care of them has been), you give your children the gift of knowing that your love for them transcends the adult issues that are the marriage.
i have been separated for three months from a man who treated me very badly, who was a neglectful father at best, and with whom i am incredibly angry at the moment. yet i do still wish to have those shared moments to celebrate our children’s special moments, even our children’s ordinary moments. he is their father and i still care for him.
i am working amazingly hard at setting boundaries and it is really challenging to set the right ones. he has a tendency to stick the kids in the middle. i am trying to take the high road, not because i want validation for myself, but because i want my kids to believe me when i tell them that the ending of our marriage is not their fault.
good luck to you — visit my blog if you have a chance, you will see what i mean 🙂
Try this post and I will also email you the post on it from The No Contact Rule support email.
Why does it hurt when you know darn well (deep down) that it wasn’t any good anyway? You know you spent most of the relationship waiting — waiting for him to come to his senses, waiting for it get better. Still when it ends – even if you are the one to close the door – it hurts.
Kim,
I have been wondering the same question.
Why can’t I listen to my logical side of my brain that tells me I am better off. I need to have faith that there is better out there because what he was giving me was crumbs and I told him that.
I am happier now because I don’t have to wait around anymore because I ended that. Yet I am still idealizing things.
I keep telling myself lately, he is just one guy in the world there are plenty of more, let go of the idea that he was the last chance of love, or the closest I have come to love. There is going to be more options stop thinking he is the last option.
MH, as I said to Kim you’re only human and you’re grieving the loss of the relationship. Let go of the idea that he was your one and only because if you hold on to that, you will not let go of the emotions attached to the relationship. People lose loved ones through death and live to love again. If they can, you can.
MH, as I said to Kim you’re only
human and you’re grieving the
loss of the relationship. Let go of
the idea that he was your one
and only because if you hold
on to that, you will not let
go of the emotions attached
to the relationship.
People lose loved ones through death and live to love again. If they can, you can.
NML,
This is what I struggle with the most. We had
such a close friendship. I thought at times he
really cared for me. More than any of my past
boyfriends because he never verbally or
physically abused me like all my boyfriends did.
He didn’t blame me for things. All my exe’s blamed me for everything. I wanted us to fall
in love even though I didn’t have that strong of
feelings for him. I wanted it to happen because I
thought he was the closest I have ever been to
love. Even though we never told each other
we loved each other. Outsiders and my friends told me we loved each other as friends I said I don’t think so, and they said trust me we can see it and if you don’t see it your a fool. Either way I said he didn’t treat me well enough and this is all that matters.
He couldn’t give me what I wanted which was the issue between us and he emotionally abused me by pulling the EU crap.
This is why I ended the close friendship and the intimacy.
I barely have contact with him and I have let go of everything that really made us friends in general. I am not trying to be friends with him either.
In my mind, I haven’t let go of the fear (which is just a feeling) that he was the last guy that I will ever get to experience that closeness with. I am allowing myself to live that self-fulfilling prophecy that all I will ever attract is Boyfriends that are Assclowns and Male Friends that are Emotionally Unavailable. I feel this way because I haven’t been able to let go of the very thing you are suggesting that I let go. I want to but because I have never dated a nice guy or even met one I can’t get my head wrapped around that they exist. I do say lots of positive affirmations to myself to believe in it but when I examine my thoughts it is still in there as you know because I said it here and you pointed it out. See Kim brought up her thought and I happened to share the same thought.
BY ALL MEANS I DON’T HOPE FOR HIM BACK. I JUST BELIEVE I HAD MY LAST CLOSE RELATIONSHIP.
I know I deserve and want better I just fear that I won’t attract it or find it. I fear that I have to settle in order to achieve that decent guy. Even though you have written posts on these very topics they are still my fears I am trying to work out because of your very posts. I think I would rather be alone than have to settle on some average guy.
Please note that when I was hanging with my last EUM numerous girls and friends of mine asked continuosly why I wasn’t attracted to him and they listed all his good qualities. I try not to focus on those things because like you say they don’t hold weight when it comes to substantial relationship qualities.
Bottom line I am working on this issue right now and I want to let go of it because like you say it keeps me emotionally tied to him.
I usually work through my issues by reading your posts or books, or other articles to gain insight into my issues. This is my latest and I am unsure how to get the final latches off of this issue. I think it is what is keeping me stuck on him.
I think I have come to terms that he is not healthy for me but Iam almost thinking I am better off in life alone even though this is not what I want. It makes me go into fight mode to figure out why I am allowing myself to stay shackled to the idea that he was my last close relationship thus keeping me emotionally tied to him dreamwise that is. However, when I do talk to him or think about our time together I am mostly reminded of his eum ways.
thanks Nat
This is my next big challenge. I have gotten over many other hurtles so there is a good chance I can get over this one. I really do want to get past this and meet someone good for me to find out what real love is all about.
After I read the books I have bought recently mr unavailable I want to purchase the two books on boundaries and values you have I think those will help.
@MH
You voiced my own feelings when you said “I JUST BELIEVE I HAD MY LAST CLOSE RELATIONSHIP.
I know I deserve and want better I just fear that I won’t attract it or find it…. I think I would rather be alone than have to settle on some average guy. ”
I am with you 100% on this. How do we get over thinking like this? Where are all these wonderful, non-AC guys? What if they don’t exist? It’s mainly because I believe I will be celibate the rest of my life that I cannot stop sleeping with my “ex”. It’s the absolute finality of it — once I stop sleeping with him, that is it, the end of my sex life, forever. Who can blame me for wanting “just one last” session with him?
Hi Kim in Minn. It hurts because it’s supposed to. You’ve expended time, energy, and emotions and now you’re letting go – that hurts. It hurts because you’re disappointed and may be feeling rejected. It doesn’t matter who closes the door – it hurts.
Just have to get through it and avoid the thinking maybe it wasn’t so bad, maybe I’m over-reacting, maybe I expect too much, maybe he really loves me but can’t show it. GAG! I married my ex-husband despite many red flags. I foolishly believed that everything would be great once we were married and he settled into it. I foolishly gave him way too many chances and I was doing the same thing with the man I am ending a (half baked) relationship with now. I start thinking “well he wasn’t mean…” because he wasn’t mean as in hitting or name calling. Both men are self-centered though and do their own thing while I wait for time and attention. Blech…! I will always be waiting if I stick with this. I just realized also that neither of these guys are ever happy. Not happy about anything, rarely have belly laughs or get joy from anything. Anyone else see that with an EUM? That they are not happy or able to experience joy?
HI KIM in MINN,
Just have to get through it and avoid the thinking maybe it wasn’t so bad, maybe I’m over-reacting, maybe I expect too much, maybe he really loves me but can’t show it. GAG
Wow I am going through the same phases as you.
I just was wondering the same thing as you “am I exaggerating that it was that bad, maybe I am the problem.
I am doing that thing Natalie mentions about looking for self blame in a sense.
When she posted back to me that I am treating him like my one and only that is my issue in a nutshell. Him and I weren’t together but because he wasn’t abusive physically or verbally I think that was the closest I will ever get to love is someone being somewhat nice to me.
I think of my life like a movie and the tittle is called
“That was it” staring me. Synopsis: She almost made it to love but that is not in the cards for her. Some people are just not meant for love and being alone isn’t the worst thing in the world as she learned because being abused is worst. So after her last chance of love she blew it by not putting up with the last man that she could have had, she’s all alone. The end!
Sorry for the sarcasm but that is how I have been looking at things and your post help me get it out there.
I am relating so much to your thinking right now.
We need another frame of mind to think from obviously. I am sure due for renovation of the mind.
heeey ladies!
hmmm so i have a little crisis here… one of my best friends dated this guy and now it’s over (we hope) and it’s a “cry all day, stay in bed, i can’t do without him” situation. It’s pretty bad, but i i know this is never easy…
anyway, I was trying to explain some of the things a learned here on nat’s blog and from the book and you comments but it’s kind of hard cause I’m still learning and realising myself…
it was a boy meets girl, everything was good at the beggining, both happy and in love, he wanted to spend all the time with her and then after 2 months the boy starts backing away little by little… Girl is confused, knows something isn’t right, blames herself, we all tell her that she has to talk to him… and after a month and a half of this comes the big talk, when he couldn’t avoid it anymore… anyway, the boy admited, that there was no more “feeling” for him and that he had decided he wanted out weeks before. But he wanted to take the easy way out, he thought he could just call her less, meet with her less often and she would “get the message”.
I’m trying to tell her, that only emotionally unavaliable men do this kind of stuff and that she’s better off without him and that she better focus on herself… but she’s saying that all the guys are like that. she’s basically saying that “a guy knows when he no longer considers you to be the one for him, he just won’t share that information with you.”, and that 99% of guys are like that, period.
And since i have a looong way to go before I’m recognize Mr. Unavaliables and Assclown behaviour, I’m asking you, is this guy a Mr. Unavaliable?? Is this guy an Assclown.??? or is this just normal, you can’t make a guy be with you.
I think it would help her if she saw it written down and you opinion about this. This site was really a turning point for me and i’m doing no contact for 6 months, yeeey, but i still have a lot to learn.
thanks for your answers ladies. you’re an instipation, and Natalie is a real hero for me:)))
xoxo
wish you a great night!
ana
Ana,
this guy is an assclown and yes, emotionally unavailable in my opinion. Why? Because he attempted to do the “back handed” breakup. He began to treat your friend poorly, hoping that she would have enough self-respect to find it unacceptable and then SHE would be the one to end it. This is so he doesn’t have to feel like the “bad’ guy-although by doing this, he has made himself be the bad guy.
Worse, he admitted to doing this. It is hard enough to be rejected without someone essentially saying that you were too stupid to not get the “message” and that there must be something wrong with you because you were obviously being mistreated and you didn’t do anything about it. So, he had to step in and finally TELL her his real feelings-which is what he SHOULD have done from the very start.
Its a very passive-aggressive move and usually done by emotionally unavailable men. They don’t want to take responsiblity for any part of a relationship-including ending it, or the responsibility of breaking a heart. Nobody likes to end a relationship with someone and cause them hurt, but its totally selfish to drag it out and to create further pain by forcing the other person to do it. Its controlling, to say the least.
He may have just realized that she wasnt the one for him, but based on what you said, its probably a pattern of his-getting involved with women too quickly, the “whirlwind” romance in the beginning-assclowns are in love with falling in love and once they’ve “conquered” the woman and got her attached-they tire and bore of it because it means actually having to settle down into relationship mode. Then they tend to turn around and “love” the women that DONT end up falling for them. Its very backwards.
This is just my opinion but your girlfriend is better off.
lisa, thanks a lot!!!!!!!:)
she read it! i agree with you, she just had to see it from somebody else, not just her girlfrends… now she’s in a “maybe he’s gonna change, grow up” mood… i hope it won’t last for to long;)
anyway, thank you again, you are so right… these kind of guys just love being in love, when there’s any actual “work” in the terms of a real relationship, the “magic” isn’t there any more… heh, i do have a really good friend with good relationship habits and she always says to us, omg, where do you find these guys??? she wouldn’t touch them with a stick… and i always said ok, we’ve got different taste, but she’ the one in a commited long term relationship and we’re the “poor” girls who always get played, so yeah, she’s got a point! 🙂
lisa,thanks again for these wise words! hugs**
ana
Wow, spot on Lisa! Especially your last paragraph. I’ve seen it one toooo many times. But that’s the assclown’s pay back, falling in love with the woman who takes them for a donkey ride…lol
Wise words!
He doesn’t want to be with her. That’s it really.
Spot on Grace; sometimes we need to skip all the analysing, especially when it’s pretty clear cut. I would tell my pal that she is at least getting a clear message (more than many of the rest of us here have got!!) even if it was slow in coming.
She will be hurt, of course, but she’ll get over it – if he is EUM/AC – and it sound like he is at least EU, tell her to beware of him turning up again blowing all hot when he thinks she is maybe not an option anymore – that’s when the real trouble starts!!
At this point, though, she does at least know where she stands, and that is way better than being the puppet in the guy’s pushey-pulley game, doing the hokey-cokey dance till your head is in a spin and you don’t know which way is up anymore.
hey grace!
Yeah, he doesn’t want to be with her, i get that. And a guy isn’t a jerk if he wants to break up,I know.
the problem here is that she’s not mad at him for acting the way he did prior to the break-up and she’s saying that she’s still going to hang out with him, wants to be friends bla bla bla… so, if we say, that this way just a decent guy, who wanted to break up, there’s nothing bad about wanting to be friends eventually…
but if this guy was emotionally unavaliable or an assclown (knowing what he was like before the break-up), then it’s really bad for her for wanting to be friends, stay in his life, she’s supposed to get mad and put some boundries and kick him out of her mind for good.
anyway, yeah, he doesn’t want to be with her, but this is not so much about him now, it’s about learning a lesson, if there’s a lesson to be learned here… trying to understand what’s right or wrong behaviour towards other people, what makes them EUMs or assclowns, and better to be avoided, as partners or later friends…
I’m so sorry if I’m babbling here, this blog was a revelation for me, so it’s all a bit new for me and I’m trying to understand it (after years of this kind of guys- all of my boys were major players, with a harem of ex-s). And now when my friend is in this situation we wanna help her see, that maybe it’s not all her “fault” and that life isn’t that unfair and that she has to deal with some issues of herown.
grace, can u please tell me your opinion to, is this guy emotionally unavaliable or an assclown??
thanks a lot ladies, good night! :))))
hugs to all of you*
ana
ana
So far, from what you said he doesn’t sound TOO bad. There is no good way to break up with someone where they say “yippy doo, ive been dumped. terrific”. He wan’t particularly straightforward but at least he did fess up to what he was doing. However, there is every potential for this to turn nasty IF SHE LETS HIM. If she starts hanging around with him too soon (ie within six months) she could end up being his booty call, or someone he keeps around for a laugh/sympathy/something to do while her heart is breaking.
He has broken up with her, she needs to process the rejection and heartbreak, not start being his friend. And that goes for EUs, ACs and even decent guys.
actually, scrub the six months. make it 18 months. Or two years. How about never?
I’ve just recently had an ex sneak back in after ten years and it did not end well.
I agree grace, never sounds pretty good!! he does have a tendency to make his exes a booty call, we’ve seen that before, so lets hope she’s not gonna let him.
about you ex sneaking…. mmm let me tell you about my dad, i should be so wise about guys cause I’ve seen him do all the EUM/AC thing to his girlfriends, exes, wifes… he’s never going to change, even after 10 years, 20 years… whenever, he lost everything and everybody, but he still does it… so for some people, there is no hope of changing. I totally understand why you let him in again and I’m sorry it didn’t end well, i hope it wasn’t too hard for you. You are definitely better off without him:).
Natalie, if you have a spare moment, can u PLEASE tell you opinion about this guy?? just, if he’s an EUM, AC, or a decent guy! I’m sorry if I’m being to difficult, we have a girls night in tonight and if i told her what you said it would help massively! i already told her to order your book and read it word by word:))
hugs my ladies! hope you have a good day:))
XX
ana
I think Lisa is right on. That exact thing happened to me with the guy I lived with for 7 years. I was the one who had to leave because “he” needed his space and wasn’t sure about us or about loving me anymore. I walked out and felt the guilt of ending it and the sadness of being dumped. It took me years to recover from that and to finally understand that I did the right thing, he was the one who wanted out. But what happens in these cases is that you end up asking yourself whether you did the right thing because you *think* you’re the one who ended it, while in reality they did, you just executed what they wanted to do but didn’t have the courage to do themselves. Many years later I had a second go with the same guy and realized that he was totally controlling, so this behavior is exactly in line with a controling AC/EUM as Lisa pointed out.
I think the key with these guys is not to put up with them pulling back early in the relationship and have a conversation early on when you start noticing their lack of attention. In my recent experience, this brings out their lack of commitment to the relationship and you can both discuss it (sometimes with discomfort and tension) and finally mutually agree that you need to go your separate ways.
But the best thing after that is really to cut contact and rebuild as Natalie so often recommends. No growth can come from being friends with someone who doesn’t want to be with you in the first place. Spend your time with people who really do, your real friends.
“I walked out and felt the guilt of ending it and the sadness of being dumped.”
So did I.
How interesting. You can be dead sure you’ve got a (passive aggressive) responsibility dodger when you have to do the dumping and be the dumpee at the same time! Which is usually the case with eums. It’s a pretty slick/sick move to avoid it and heap all the responsibility for a relationship and a breakup on someone else isn’t it? It also shows you’ve pretty much been in a relationship with yourself, and holding up way too @#$%^#* much on your own. Dayamn.
“I walked out and felt the guilt of ending it and the sadness of being dumped.”
I am a first time commenter, but a faithful reader. My ex and I were together 3 years, living together, and broke up 1 year ago, but we continued to “be friends” only after a few months after moving out. It wasn’t friends at all, it was sex all the time, dinner, dates, I love you’s, but he *insisted* that we were not together and single. I finally couldn’t take it anymore, and said that we needed to talk about our situation, that I am 30 now, and didn’t want to wait forever for him. He said that he liked the way things were and didn’t want a serious relationship for another 1-2 years(!!!!). I even managed to have sex with him after that. I left his apartment, shattered. I saw my therapist the next day, and she said, it is time to completely cut contact. I wrote him a quick email wishing him luck on his 1-2 years on his own, and that I couldn’t have him in my life. It has been the hardest and worst feeling. Even though he shattered my heart into a million pieces, I still think of him every day, wonder what he thinks about me, etc. He was the first to contact me on my birthday, sent me an email on how much he missed me, thought of me everyday, etc. It has only been a few weeks since I received this email, but I have NOT responded. I deleted it. It has been the hardest thing to do. I feel the guilt of not responding. I feel the lonliness and excruciating pain of having my heart broken. I never thought about it like that until I read your response. That is such an unfair position to be in! I also see now that I was trying to sleep my way back to girlfriend status, and that was because my self-esteem was ripped to shreds. I don’t want a love that feels like this.
I know how this feels. The guy told me he didn’t love me and considered me to be a “really good friend” but still texted me, called me, stopped by, fixed things for me and wanted to sleep together. He didn’t me consider me his girlfriend but he wanted to have sex with me. Stupidly I didn’t want to believe what was in front of me. I pretended that it would get better, he’d miss me if I was gone, etc. Heck he actually would text me that he missed me – usually when he was laying in bed at night alone. I have been the queen of denial and lying to myself that a relationship actually existed. It didn’t and yet I answered his calls, let him spend the night at my house. I feel so stupid and mad at myself for waiting around and hoping hoping hoping for something to grow into a beautiful mature comfortable relationship. We are both 50 and I am lonely but finally seeing things for what they really are.
“But what happens in these cases is that you end up asking yourself whether you did the right thing because you *think* you’re the one who ended it, while in reality they did, you just executed what they wanted to do but didn’t have the courage to do themselves.” Very well said Nikki.
You’re also totally right about the pulling back – nip it in the bud, never ignore even if it means the end of the ‘fairy tale’.
@Ana
I feel for your friend that is “in bed all day crying” I think sometimes we women give ourlove and trust away too soon and easily. As a result, there is deep felt pain when we are rejected.
Through this blog I saw that I did this myself and gave my trust to the wrong person.I learned that trust is a big deal for me! I was able to find out so much about myself through this awful situation. The biggest lesson I see in your post is that you can’t make anyone realize anything – not even EUM’s or AC’s -no matter how much that info might help, she has to get out of bed and take it on for herself. This blog has been such a huge help to me, all you can do is suggest it to her and hopefully she will read the wealth of knowledge NML has brought us. There is just so much here to help us all!
I think with some of these guys that you just can’t ever really tell their true intentions with you. I have learned so much in the span of 4 months. I can’t stand this AC but I have to say…I am better off WITH this knowledge. I am stronger now from the pain. I am able to see my part in it, but also more clearly and better understand his motivations and they were not good. I also had the unique chance to confirm the worst, and it is sad to learn that indeed the worst was really true.
I look forward to one day putting what I have learned into practice with somone worthy of my love and trust and someone that I can share life’s up and downs beside me.
Hi Ana, it doesn’t actually matter whether he’s emotionally unavailable or not. What he is is uninterested. He overestimated his level of interest and like anyone, he has reserved the right to change his mind even if he’s being a dipstick about it. A decent guy with more respect, empathy, and integrity, would have grown some nuts and ended things properly. Instead he thought he could treat her like shit until she took the hint, which she didn’t. Only Mr Unavailables and assclowns do this type of rinky, dinky bullshit behaviour although emotionally available or not, most people panic at having to get uncomfortable and tell someone they want out. Common decency separates the shady from the Nervous But I’ll Bite The Bullet & Do It Anyway type.
Your friend isn’t stupid because she didn’t take the hint – she just didn’t want to believe that someone who was in love with her had left and been replaced with an asshole.
When you want to breakup with someone, you don’t drop hints by behaving like a dickhead. You speak up.
Your friend is rightly upset and of course right now it hurts and feels like she can’t live without him but she will or at least she’ll have to, because he’s left the building. If she pursues him she’ll show him that he made the right decision.Give her a hug for me
This really hit home, and to be honest, all of this is kinda hard to swallow becauseme and my ex just started back communicating and being…friends, and our relationship was far from healthy or good.
@LadyJaye Well I’m sure you’ll find out all too soon that the fire still burns! You’re human and you want to believe and see the good in people, but see it in people who demonstrate both with actions and their words that they give a damn about you.
“Whatever deluded ideas they have about their reasons for not treating you decently in the relationship, you just legitimized them. ”
Absolutely. In my case, after an incredibly unnecessarily traumatizing break-up, the narcissistic ex went around to our mutual friends claiming he couldn’t believe I wouldn’t talk to him.
“What really hurts is that she says she never wants to talk to me again” (oh the pain, how can I be so cruel to someone who ripped my heart out). My gfs basically told him, that is one of the consequences to your actions. If you treat someone without love and respect, she will give herself the love and respect that you did not by not being your friend and validating that you are not so bad. He didn’t get it. I was a fool for being in the relationship in the first place, but I don’t have to let him continue to suck the energy out of my life anymore, and he would have: there are a couple of women he used to date that he maintained friendships with, even though he knew they still had unresolved feelings for him. He said he was being kind and mature by being their “friend”, but I believed he got off on the feelings of love, affection, confusion, and sadness (for the loss of their relationship) they re-experienced when they were around him. I remember once, one of his ex’s cancelled a “let’s get drinks and catch-up” meet up because she realized she still had feelings for him and didn’t think it was a good idea. As a real friend, he should have understood, but he was actually disappointed and annoyed with her. Why? Because he doesn’t care about her feelings, her well-being…he was just looking forward to feeding off of the attention she gave him as the “one who got away” and pined over. Gross.
Sounds like my exAC – poor girls – I hope they get it and he eventually has some consequences to his atrocious actions! I can count at least 5 of these girls hanging around for my ex, but those are the only ones I know of!
I think we dated the same guy Jasmine. Exactly what happened to me. He made me out to be the bad guy for going NC and told everyone I was crazy and also for thinking that he was in any sort of relationship with him. He also OFTEN spoke of ex’s and how he was friends with all of them and additionally in contact with most of them. And there were a lot of ex’s. While he was right about the non-relationship, he had no problem taking all the attention, kissing, while I pined away hoping it would develop into more. I had expressed my feelings for him several times so he knew how I felt but controlled everything we did together so it was not too boyfriendy. Always having me meet him out while he was with friends. The only time we were one on one really was for “lunchs” or if he was trying to win me back. So I finally cut the cord and additionally had to know that he was blaming it all on me for “being crazy”. I only had one friend who confronted him and told him that he was accountable for leading me on, that she knew about all the countless call/texts, the kissing, etc and that he did in fact lead me on… to which he said “I see your point”. But mostly he was just worried about saving face and not looking like the bad guy.
@CC I am sorry to hear was an ass he was, its very dissapointing to hope for something, think it’s going somwhere, and then realize he was just passing time.
“I see your point” What an ambiguous way to look like he is somehow accepting some responsibility for your hurt. I also heard “I can see how you would think I am damaged” after completely agreeing with me that he had been an emotional vampire in my life. My ex had also pulled the, “you know I love you, baby” and “you know you are special to me, lady”… my therapist says that people who are telling you what “you know” are doing it because they dont actually want to do any of the things they would need to for you to “know” without them telling you…stay strong!
Jasmine
@Jasmine You’re absolutely right to cut him off. Sucking the life out of you indeed. Let him whine. You know why you’re not bothering with him and really, that’s all that counts.
It’s kind and mature to behave decently in a relationship so that there is a foundation to a possible friendship should the relationship end. It’s lunacy to be friends with someone who has mistreated you. It just says ‘Hit me baby one more time’
Thanks NML, I actually just read your entry about getting over them when you thought you were freinds, and I realize that even though I stated we were friends for three years before we dated, that wasn’t a healthy relationship either. As my friend, he was constantly being inappropriately intimate, flirtatious, and overstepping boundaries. I was only able to figure out the timelines after we started dating: he was behaving this way even as he had other girlfriends. Just when I would think it was going somewhere, he would mention he was dating someone. Confused, I would think that I was the one who was somehow reading too much into his communications with me and would start dating available men. That is when he would tell me how dissapointed he was in my choice to date other men, because “what we could have together could be great”. In effect, he was messing with my head. He didn’t want me, but he didnt want me to want anyone else but him. He wasn’t my friend, there was no maturity, and he had no respect for me. But I exaggerated the quality of our “friendship” in my mind so I could excuse alot of his questionable behaviour when we finally did start dating. I was really selling myself on an idea, that he was my “best friend” my “soulmate” and he was happy to let me think so.
Live and learn 🙂
jasmine
This article is dead on. Plus, what motivation are they left with to treat you better if you continue being there for them after you have decided that the kind of person they are is not worth your time anymore? It says to them “okay, it didn’t work out but I’m obviously not *that* bad. Obviously, she is too demanding”.
Assclowns and EUM will take whatever it is *you* *allow* them to get, will continue to push for more attention while they know you will stick around and cave in to their ego needs – all without them having to commit to a relationship.
I know because I am smack in the middle of trying to fend my EUM with a stick.
Natalie is right. It is better to distance yourself for a few months and THEN see if there is a friendship if that’s what you want. Don’t do it now while you are still raw and vulnerable to their BS.
The part that is the most EYE OPENER is that if he wasn’t good to you as your boyfriend, what makes us thing that he will be a good friend?
No. being there done that. They are not good friends.
Thanks Allie – we learn the hard way but at least we learn.
Don’t do it all – don’t forget what Nat says about putting your hand in the fire – you’ll just get burned!! Whether it’s now, 2 months, 6 months, or 1 year!
Or even 3 years when I took her back telling me she was over her xe again …I got burned, caught them both cheating, it hurts like hell this time, I work with her, so I see her nearly every day, I say Hi, but she so smug round me, with that smirk on her face, she not even full time with her ex now he’s living with sumone else.
Thanks, I agree. After burning my hand over and over….sometimes that might be what it takes. It has taken me 8 months to only BEGIN to move on from my EUM and to actually WANT something better but I had a lot of inner issues with myself that needed to be taken care of first. The weirdest thing of all is seeing how little things make me happy now that I generate by myself WITHOUT him. It is those baby steps that help. I tried “cold turkey” many times but failed. I knew if I just kept going, no matter what, that one day I could get over him. He will never step up and it’s time to open my life to someone else who will.
thanks Cindy! If you give they take, which means if you stop giving, you can’t open yourself up to further abuse and mistreatment. It is too soon if you try to be friends fresh out of a breakup. Period
Natalie – Thank you so much for writing this. I have been folllowing the postings on the recent blogs and seeing many going through this very issue, which is one I am living at the moment. After a very painful non-relationship experience with someone I worked with, I am now in mandatory mediation to try and work out a professional relationship. After months of work on myself and getting rid of denial, illusions and all the crap I had loaded into the relationship, I was left with some very clear notions. Number 1 was that I didn’t want any on going relationship with this person, as he had nothing of value to offer and his “friendship” had only been a means of securing ego massage. But I now find myself forced into actually working on rebuilding some sort of functional business relationship with him. It is ironic that we now have to put more effort into fixing the “relationship” than he ever did during the “relationship”.
It has been a true test of my maturity, my boundaries, my ability to compartmentalize and getting brutally honest with myself. I saw how much of it was wanting and needing validation. I saw how childish my own behaviour becomes when I am deeply hurt and disappointed. I saw so much of my child hood issues played out in public. It has been a humbling and humiliating experience, but one I have grown from and clearly needed. I had wanted and expected so much from this man and he had not wanted to give me any of it, even friendship. Now I am required to be the “good girl” and the mature one and suck it up for the good of work and my other colleagues. I am glad I have done the work I needed to do – I can’t imagine how I would have survived this experience if I hadn’t – and my relationship drama is under control. I had to walk through the rejection. Feel it, cry the tears, accept that all I had hoped for and thought was happening wasn’t. I truly let it go and as a result, can begin to approach what I need to do now from a secure, healthier place. This site has been a big part of that – thanks for that.
Letting go is hard and its human nature to want to hold on and avoid the pain. In the end, though, my self esteem and self respect are better for having done just that. Having those two things in place means I trust myself not to backslide now, give in to his lies and manipulations and fall back into bad patterns. Bite the bullet, accept the rejection and move on to someone who will care for and respect you – namely yourself.
I’m really proud of how you have done the necessary which has forced you out of a comfort zone and forced you to get uncomfortable. Much as I learned through my own painful experiences, so will you and you will come out the other side. Relationships serve to teach us about ourselves. This experience has got you to deal with some very painful and difficult things and in rather an uncomfortable manner. You will be totally over him and you’ll never put yourself through that pain. You’ll be a better person for it because of your willingness to be accountable and not bullshit yourself. You love your job and he’s not worth losing it for and at work., even when we want to jump and howl on the tables in frustration, we must be professional and mature. Lord knows that is hard sometimes. Your relationship and the fallout crossed a lot of boundaries at work. Now those lines are back up. Maybe he will learn something from this too…
((((hugs)))))
“but we then convince ourselves that if we do not continue to be a part of their lives after they break up, we’ll feel even more rejected and invalid because we’re not even good enough to be kept around on the periphery zone as a friend. ”
I have to tell you – this has never been my thinking with exs. Maybe a healthy boundry I have had among the unhealthy ones. My ex 22 yrs ago called me a year after our break-up and said “if I was gay, you’d be my friend”. My reply was “why would I want you as a friend, you couldn’t even be my friends when we were lovers”. Please!
The friend card from the men I have been involved with has always been about them – so they could feel ok with their sh*tty behavior and say ‘ see I am not THAT bad, she still wants me as a friend’ HA!! I don’t think so – stroke their ego at the expense of my self-esteem – I don’t think so.
I felt so rejected IN the relationship, I was not sticking around for more bad treatment as a “friend” and to boot watch them flaunt another girl in my face – no thank you!
I have two male friends from the past that I slept with, we were able to stay friends because 1) we were not in love with eachother 2) They were GOOD friends, they were not jerks!
I was/am too good to be their friends. They don’t deserve me and MY friendship!
“because you don’t want to seem like you’re being immature”. I think it takes mature thinking and behavior to WALK/RUN from these kind of people. My exAC had some girl show up to his Halloween Party – turns out he was asking her out while we were on “break” (because of his chronic pain – liar). His explanation was I showed her who I was with (as he kissed me all night). Needless to say I found this out later – are we in HS or what??!!!
Let him call me the B*tch cause I wouldn’t be this worthless man’s friend! I’d rather give my amazing friendship to people who deserve it!
“More importantly, remaining friends with your ex, aside from being some sort of validation of your worthiness, the act in itself makes the process of letting go somewhat less painful. Call it putting off the inevitable.” I think you meant MORE painful, not less.
Nat – what’s with the big font in our replies the last few articles?
Aimee,
I was wondering about the big font too, lol.
Without knowing your browser, I can’t see what the issue is although I would suggest you go to ‘view’ in your browser and change the size of your font if it’s too big. Please use the contact page listed at the top if you want to report a technical issue. I’ll need browser, the version, whether you’re using a PC or Mac etc. I’m on Firefox and the site looks normal.
Recently Windows XP seems to increase font size as I use the vertical scroll bar to read down the replies meaning I have to + to resize the page.
The other day i heard a radio shrink say to a woman who was agonizing about her kids trying to have a relationship with their dad (her ex), “Why would you encourage and support your kids having a relationship with their dad when he treated you like crap and you left and divorced him?!” paraphrased. Wow, really hit home with me who has agonized myself over this exact thing, despite my recognition that young teenage kids do need some kind of relationship with both parents ideally. But if the dad (or mom) is especially continuing to be an assclown or assclownette, why should you be friends with them or promote anyone else being friends with them?
I think the words “he treated you like crap and you left and divorced him” is the pertinent phrase. The father in the man needs to be separated out from the “assclown” in the man. IMHO no mother has the right to restrict a father’s access to his children unless there is a case for emotional and/or physical abuse to the kids (and legal processes should be applied).
Ive just been through a horrible experience with an EUM this very weekend that made me realize I finally have to stop playing the friendship card. We dated briefly in the summer after he’d played seriously hot but as soon as he’d got what he wanted – sex – he dropped me like a stone. After a while of ice coldness he started messaging again, always in a sexual way, always trying to meet up. I wouldn’t but I played along with being friends because I was sure he would realize one day what he’d lost and start treating me properly. Ha! Then this weekend I went to a party where I knew he’d be. I planned to be aloof and together but naturally as soon as he began flirting with me I lost all resolve. We got drunk and went out to the garden, i guess to kiss, but we were interrupted. Then suddenly he disappeared. Stupidly (and drunkenly) I rung him offerring to go to his – only for him to turn me down! I felt (and feel) so humiliated. But finally I’ve deleted his number, cut off online contact and realised – I can’t be in his life in anyway and he can’t be in mine. He doesn’t care fir me and he doesn’t care how much he hurts me – as long as his ego is pumped up to the max. He’s not a friend – he’s a horrible self-serving creep. And why would I want to be friends with that?! I’ve spent the last couple of days beating myself up pretty badly but I’m trying to remember I’m not the bad person – he is!
We are all better off without these creeps coming anywhere near us and cutting them off dead – however much and however stupidly it hurts- is the only way. Thanks so much Natslie for this and your ace blog, I don’t know where I’d be without it. Xxx
London Girl, stop beating yourself up. The next time you feel so much as tempted to call him or any other fool, remember this experience and remind yourself how you don’t want to feel this way again. You’ll be fine. Nothing happened so you’ve been spared even more pain! Take care of you!
Wow NML! I am so thankful for this post…not only is it timely but it’s like receiving permission to ditch the “dodger”.
When I told the AC to quit contact, he wanted to “at least text once in awhile to say hi”. I said absolutely not.
I’ve bantered back and forth in my head whether I should have maintained some level of communication…but it would serve no purpose other than to keep him in my life. I get “hooked” in the mindset that the AC must feel so rejected by my actions / words and nice girls just don’t make people feel that way…HA. What a trap and mind screw
Turns out the AC needs to know that there are consequences to treating people badly. This sounds like common sense on paper but somehow I second-guess my decision. Anyway…I just wanted to say what a blessing you are in my life and I’m so glad I found this blog! You really are a great sanity check.
Thanks Metsgirl. Your first instinct was right. “at least text once in awhile to say hi” – hilarious! What a twit! Like you need him keeping a foothold in your life! Close the door, even if it’s on his foot!
On a different note, in my own suffering love life, I am struggling with the whole friendship thing myself with a recent ex who’s still in my life because we occasionally work together. I am counting the days when we will no longer be working in the same workplace, which is hopefully within a week or two. I still love this man but because of his being an emotionally unavailable assclown, i recognize my need for him to be out of my life, and because he isn’t yet, he continues to flirt and say suggestive things to me to keep that ego stroke. I feel trapped because with our work I need him to remain cooperative, selfishly on my part, so I can complete the project. I daily have to fight the urge to respond to his advances and to faux need to be part of his life again in some way. I don’t want him to be gone, but we can’t be friends. I’ve told him I don’t need any male “friends” as I have enough male friends I have to focus on me. Friends with benefits doesn’t fulfill any need of mine. Frankly I can’t see any point when we would be able to be friends in the future.
Hi Tess. My ex and I worked together. It’s harder but far from impossible. Be professional and polite, but that doesn’t involve you being his friend. Let the fact that you share the same office building be the bit where he’s not gone and focus your efforts on you. Try https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/relationship-advice-how-can-i-keep-up-the-no-contact-rule-with-my-guy-at-work/
I stayed away from the AC for three years after his initial friendship offer.
After three years he offered me the same again after messing with my head and spouting love and all kinds of pathetic rubbish. They cause a fog so you can’t get clarity so they can get off on being emotionally high from their ego trip.
He even admitted to me that his ego was involved!
I feel so sad that I fell for it. I almost caved in and let him email me once. I’ll post his closing line here in that email that made me run for the hills:
Quote: “What’s good (for me) about writing you, is it gives me a chance to think a little tangentially from the things I deal with every day. What’s bad for you is if you take this too seriously or personally. Please don’t. But writing for me is fun. I enjoy it.”
I instantly recognised he was treating me as a friend like he had done in the so called pathetic nothingness of “our” relationship. Managing down my expectations. Incidentally, I had no expectations left regarding him because I thought it was all done and dusted.
Distancing myself again is easy – it’s for me. But what I find tragic is that men like this exist and I let this happen to me and ignored the red flags and got my own ego all wrapped up the rejection thing again.
I feel and felt SET UP! He set me up and I let it happen!
I can’t ever be his friend. He’s too dangerous, manipulative and emotionally abusive. It was right there staring me in the face and my self-esteem was shattered because of my marriage ending after 27 years, my Father dying last year my children leaving home for uni.
He knew all this and he didn’t give a c**p! I cannot be a friend to a self centered immoral arrogant piece of nothing. Angry? You bet I am!
I’m angry at myself – I never even let my ex husband treat me this way – and we can still be friends to a certain degree because ours was an amicable break-up.
My aim is to reach TOTAL indifference. I’m NC and have been for a few weeks. I’m not even counting the days. As soon as I get sentimental I remember how emotionally manipulative he is – that stops me right in my tracks.
Nat is right, by letting them in even an inch we give them the impression that we don’t respect ourselves.
I took the first step in correcting that when I refused his advances. I told him straight he wasn’t free to be in my bed and boy am I glad and proud of myself that I said it!
Hi Leigh. Have you ever heard the saying ‘You give ’em an inch and they take a mile?’ Time is a great healer in some circumstances but time doesn’t magic assclowns into saints. You will get to indifference if you let go of any ideas about him and focus on moving forward…without him. Don’t so much as give him a moment of your time. Use the anger to work through what happened and to learn from it so you don’t ever fall in the same trap again. But remember not to be so hard on yourself. You have a right to be angry with him too. Anger is a natural part of your grief and it will pass
With “friends” like that who needs enemies! NO not friends with any exs – cordial but only because we have children together and very strict boundaries with them. No footholds in my life. As my therapist told me – their relationship with our children is up to them not me. Pick them up and leave. Its easier now they are older – one can drive himself to go see his Dad if he likes. The other – its in the door and out – pleasantries and thats it. I feel no obligation to be anything other than polite for my son’s sake – thats it. Those are the only ones I have any form of communication with. The rest are NC all the way. Would not give the pleasure of my company. Their loss – my gain!
@Movedup Aaaaamen!
I absolutely agree. Reading through the posts here at least 90% of the time the desire to remain friends equals the desire to put off the pain of breaking up with someone. One minute we break up, within the week we want to be friends. It puts us in limbo land. We aren’t fully experiencing the break up so we can’t move on. Even if we date someone else (usually a suspect rebound situation) the ex is still lurking in our thoughts and our hearts.
You have to cut it off and feel the pain. You WILL get over it if you maintain NC and work on yourself. When you’ve done it once, you know you can do it again. It gives you strength in future. You KNOW that if you are mistreated again you can walk away. Most of us never get to know that cos we NEVER break it off. We just stay “friends”. You really have to bit the bullet and get the clowns out of your life. I speak from experience.
I know you are right, Grace… I am trying to let it go with my on/off, hot/cold relationship. I have my good days when I feel strong but not often enough… My relationship has been going on for nearly ten years… so it was not a flash in the pan. I love(ed) him (and I often felt loved by him, though inconsistently – he was a frustration, really)… and I still miss him very much, though I have not seen him for three and a half months.
I have done pretty well with NC, generally – only a few minor hitches (falling off the wagon) but no dramatics, which I am not into anyway. (generally speaking he does not contact me – he “reacts” to my contact with him (I never ask to see him, or even say that I want to or anything of that sort). If I am angry, he leaves me well alone, will ignore me, basically, and if I am “reasonable” he will contact me back.
He texted me yesterday asking me to go to London with him for the weekend in a few weeks time (he has occasional meetings to go to in that city and I have gone with him a few times before – we always had a great time).
First I was really pleased (!! I know I shouldn’t have been) that he had asked, as it confirmed to me that he was missing me. My instinctive reaction was, of course I want to go! On the grounds that you’ve got to take your fun in life when it comes along…but I didn’t answer him straight away. I slept on it.
Today, after some tossing and turning and trying to ‘stay real’ I felt, ‘of course I cannot go with him’, and it depressed and disappointed me terribly today, as I really do want to go!! But I know I shouldn’t go.
Someone else said somewhere on th site that sometimes protecting your boundaies etc. feels like punishment – that’s exactly how I feel today…
but…I texted him back this morning asking him ‘is there anything else on the table here other than a weekend in London and back to square one?’ (of course I know the answer, but sometimes I think they should be asked the question!). I am still waiting for him to reply to that!!
I texted him a few hours ago saying ‘it wasn’t a trick question’ – and am still waiting for an answer!! And I am getting madder by the minute!
Help – I am losing control!! (would appreciate someone banging some sense into my head right now. Nat’s post is a good message for me – but I think I am being offered the usual ‘friend with benefits’ – in the ‘big smoke’ for a weekend!
Fearless, if there was anything else on the table you’d know this already. This is elementary Mr Unavailable territory. History has taught you what is on offer. You should know the score by now and that’s what he is banking on. He is pressing the reset button with the invitation. If you go, it’s for fun and sex. Nothing wrong with these things but don’t get it twisted. Stop treating it like a punishment. You’re free to do what you want but own it and be responsible for your decision.
NML,
Thanks very much for your response – that was good of you to do that. I know everything you say… I know, I know, I know, I know… knowing doesn’t make it any less painful.. and it feels very painful right now (for three plus months I have held my own, pretty much, and controlled my anger and frustration disappointment in check, pretty well overall… now the tears are flowing… maybe that’s where I now need to go – the crying place – maybe I now need to cry it out.
I knew when I woke up this morning that I could not take him up on the “offer” because it would mean me letting my boundaries down – and I thought long and hard to make sure I knew what they were and so wanted to be steadfast in sticking to them. I won’t give up now…yes, I have known the score for a very long time – and yes, that is what he is banking on. I know hat is true. I am getting no reply from him because he (and I) know there is nothing else on the table – he will be irritated that I have put the question in front of him though – he has no answer (or he will offer no truthful one, so he has none to offer).
I know I should not treat it like punishment -I have been telling myself that all day long… that I can live without a trip of fun to London, that it comes at too high a price: my self-respect, my values etc. (that I now want to insist on living up to).
The one phrase of yours that got me to knowing I could not take the “offer” was the one that clinches it (and sums it all up) every time: “choose you”.
And I did recognise that he was pressing a re-set button, which is why I used the term ‘back to square one’ with him. I do not want to go there again- I been there way too long – and I didn’t fight my way through these past three and a half months to go back to square one!!
Thanks for your help. I want to say also that I know I was overbearing and rude to you when I first came on the site (and probably to others as well); I won’t make excuses, I would just like to tell you that I am very sorry.
Your site is what everyone says it is – a godsend. (I used to turn to a good friend for advice in this relationship- I got bad advice, though well enough intended. Now I just read your blogs and the comments and I know good sense when I hear it – and it’s painful, but hopefully, in time, it will be the making of me – finally!)
Thanks
F
Fearless
This little trick may work for you. I changed my AC’s name in my phone to STOP. And that was enough for me to think “do i really want to do this?” before contacting him or before responding. Then I would ask myself “Why have I changed his name to STOP?” and the answer is “because he hurt me”. I fell off the wagon too. After a month of NC he texted “I still love you” which made me really happy. I caved in and within weeks he started talking sex again. Basically, and heartbreakingly, they aren’t interested in being friends. They want a shag! It’s that simple! SOB!!
Hey Fearless,
Just ran across an old comment and thread…I’m so relieved you didn’t go to London with the exAC, although it must have been tempting at the time. I kept reading, screaming DON’T GO FEARLESS! Aren’t you glad now you didn’t go? In the context of Natalie’s recent post regarding power struggles, it seems to me like the reset button and friend card is another form of the power struggle. For me, every time he hit the reset button, I must have seen it as an opportunity to continue the struggle. You’ll give me what I deserve, goddamit…I got it.
I can go to sleep knowing you didn’t go. You ended the power struggle. Good for you! Whew, it felt like a power struggle just reading this old thread. I got exhausted.
Hey Runner!
Sheesh! Oh, God, what was it like!? What was I like?! I haven’t read through the thread – just a few comments back; I will when I get the time. I never kept a journal, so probably reading through these old threads would help me to see how far I’ve come.
My struggle at that point was all in my own head – it was an internal struggle with myself. His attitude was pretty much about take or leave it. The bottom line with him is that he would see me (at his convenience!) only if I wasn’t going to expect more or make demands on him; it was an unwritten rule and I understood that very well (my friend used to say, oh has he pissed off again cos you took your fluffy bunny slippers off – and the about the size of it).
What I recall now is that BR was like a necessary masochism to me! I took a battering on here and kept coming back for more – cos I knew I needed it; I knew I had gone beyond sense and self-protection with that guy, and finally I had found people who were willing to give it to me with both barrels whether I liked it or not (my friends would tip-toe around my ‘thing’ with the EUM; no-one ever laid it on the line for me – and I avoided talking about him)! I didn’t fully believe what I was being told but I figured, the state I was in, that I had a better chance trusting Natalie than trusting myself; I had no trust in my own beliefs or reasoning anymore; was clinging to the fantasy by any old thread – I knew my own head wasn’t making any sense any more.
Sheesh. Yep. I didn’t go to london with him. It was cruel of him to ask me actually, knowing he was just up for fecking me about some more. I feel now, in Aug 2012, that I would still be emotionally vulnerable to him – that he would still have the capacity to eff up my day (maybe my week!) if I had anything to do with him. But I don’t like him anymore – weird how we see them so differently after a very long NC. I recall Elle saying at the time of this thread: Just trust in the process. That phrase stuck with me. I repeated it to myself many times.
@ Fearless
Yes – the friend thing and smoke and mirrors. He still thinks you’re hooked (are you? no judgement of course). I can just hear him say “quit being sooo demanding, can’t we just start with a weekend in London?”
Explain the little bleeps of contact missy?? Sounds like contact to me!! I hope you can let go dear – for your own sanity!!
I believe my exAC loved me (how could he not?), but his love is not enough for me – is yours ACs enough for you?
Hugs!!
Aimee,
thanks for your kind response. Yes, I am still hooked; am just trying not to be!! Yes, he must know I am still hooked – of course he does. But he also must sense that his coat is hanging on a shoogley nail – I am convinced he also senses that, as I have been more steadfast (if a bit wobbly at times) than he has ever known before.
I try not to beat myself up about my “little blips”; I may take a longer road, but as long as I get there in the end, that is what matters… and when I have finally moved on and let go it won’t matter to me what he thought of my “blips”. Ultimately, he can think what he likes – the greatest development that I see in myself is that I care less and less about what he thinks, now or will think in the future – it’s me I am worried about.
Cheers Aimee – you doin’ so well!!
@Fearless – well done you for not taking him up on the offer!
I struggle with this too – should i text, should i email, should i agree to meet up? But then i think of the bigger picture: what happens AFTER? If i text, what happens after is i sit there frustrated and anxious until i get a reply, if i respond to an email, i then sit there thinking ‘why did i dignify him with a response?! If i meet up, it’s fun at the time, but then you spend 99% of your time wondering what the hell’s going on or what’s going to happen next! I am so SICK of wondering ‘what’s going on?!’ – i spent most of my ‘relationship’ wondering that very thing and i hate it! I’ve been in healthy relationships before and the guy doesn’t leave you wondering what’s going on – you know what’s going on. Those ones leave you smiling and looking forward to the next time, without anxiousnes, doubt or that niggling feeling that you get when you do something you’re not comfortable with.
Think long term, think of you and your self worth and your sanity – do yourself a favour, because the only person he’s caring for and helping out is himself!
Hope this helps :). Stay strong love!
@Fearless
Maybe in the posts I look like I am doig well. I am slowly getting better, but I still struggle, especially with the Holidays coming.
I made the mistake of looking at the current FBG’s FB and she is doing things with him that I wanted to do and he never could because of his chronic pain. Why with her and not me?
My heart hurts today – I just wish it would blow up in both their faces. I hate him – he’s cruel.
Fearless,
I hear you loud and clear about the little bleaps not mattering.
One thing that came to my mine reading your response to Aimee and the many posts on this subject is I don’t believe that ignoring them is going to lead them to think oh she means business she is ignoring me.
I think most of these AC’s and EUM’s are going to think well she is the one that is losing out because look at the girls (FBG) that stick by me they are the ones that count.
Even my EUM would say to me I am the only one bothered by his behaviour.
Like another poster on here said her guy thought she was crazy for implementing no contact.
NO CONTACT HAS TO BE FOR OUR BENEFIT ONLY BECAUSE I REALLY DON’T THINK MOST OF THEM CARE. THEY WILL TAKE IT AS A SLAP TO THEIR EGO FOR SURE BUT THEY WILL JUSTIFY THAT WE ARE THE CRAZY ONES.
Totally agree Grace. Those who do this whole ‘let’s be friends malarkey have a lot of loose endings. If you’re totally serious about finding love with someone else, you have to let go of your ex.
@Grace – good advice. Thanks. His mobile number on my mobile is now named “Asshole” and his home number is now named “Asshole Headquarters” (!!) (he won’t contact me now though; he’s run off – turned off – having had a flea in his ear – I don’t regret my text sent to him this morning at all. I am glad I told him that, in the measured way that I did. He will know exactly what I mean by it: that his preferred status quo / re-set of previous conditions is not on the table, not on offer – therefore I have nothing to offer him – same as he told me (there’s a nice irony in that, which appealed to me and will also strike a chord with him), and he’ll also feel like a bit of an asshole (for about three seconds!!). He was just chancing his arm, as usual – he lost. And I want him to lose out on me, cos I know he will feel it and is feeling it (not that this is the goal here, but it’s an encouraging add-on for me)
Minky – yes, you speak my own feelings and failings. It does help, thanks!
I understand the NC thing.
I have a different situation. My EUM was my friends with benefits so we were never in a boyfriend and girlfriend relationship just a friendship.
I cut physical contact from him and I had to tell him again. I do realize by taking his calls or texts messages at times that in a way I am giving him mixed messages so I do understand why he didn’t get the message as clear as he should have.
After I told him I will not get together with him, he hasn’t asked since.
He gave me more space.
One thing I have noticed as well. He no longer talks about his problems, or issues, or himself much lately. He only contacts me to find out what is going on in my life. I don’t tell him much and most of the time I don’t respond. I respond to generic or what I deem as important.
He was giving me some tips about my job and health aspects. I never asked he just volunteered out of the blue because his girlfriend does the same job as me practically.
My point to mentioning this is that I have spent the time having no physical contact working through my grieving process quite healthly and productively.
People on here have commented that I would work through my process faster if I didn’t speak to him at all.
I disagree completely because I have been through this situation a few times and where I cut off the contact completely I found myself prolonging the grief longer because I really idealized the guy and imagined things a lot more fairy taleish and when I learned later in life how much I was visiting make belief land I thought to myself I should have found out sooner and I would have learned faster that I was wasting time in dream land.
continuation of other post
I am not going to be available for my friend for a shag, a shoulder to lean on, or whatever he would like to get out of me anymore. I haven’t had anything to do with him since he got a girlfriend or shortly before she became his girlfriend. I am not going to help him cheat or anything of that nature.
I am just as much aware as the women on this site that have stop all contact that he is not healthy for me or it is never going to be what I want. I dwell as much as other women on this site about what could have been, should have been, how things were in the beginning, that have stopped all contact with their guys.
What I am getting at is NC is the way to go and you can’t really be friends with these guys for all the reasons listed above but I am not keeping the little door cracked because I am getting validation out of him or I want a chance with him.
I was hiding out in my EUM because I feared commitment. I am dwelling now at times because I wanted him in the past to convince me that we would fall for each other. I didn’t really want him, I just wanted to not have to go back out in the dating world and have to start all over again and get to know someone and get close again in case that fails too. It is so much work. I wanted this relationship to work beyond reality because I was being emotionally lazy.I fell for this guys potential even though I wasn’t looking at him that way. I think the stuff that Nat has said about liking them when they reject you became a huge issue for me. It is like he became more interesting or I couldn’t figure out why he put so much effort into our situation when it was just a friends with benefits situation. So I started to think I meant more to him than I did and I liked that. Except I learned over time because he started giving more to his girl that was originally getting less then I was and was titled his booty call. I thought friends with benefits trumped booty call until she was getting more benefits I realize I have to get out of this situation. I thought I should even before she was in the picture but I didn’t stick to it back then. I started to realize I deserve better and that both of us girls were his fall back girls. My title was break glass in case girl. Very earlier on I asked him if I was his break glass in case girl. I laugh now because did I really expect him to say “as a matter of fact you are but please stick around you never know when I have to break that glass” I am killing myself laughing right now. Like right he would say that along with “while we are on the topic I also do this, this and that to you”
I am learning plenty on this website and I know that I am never going to have the friendship I once had with him because it was full of disrespectful aspects. As for now I don’t put myself in any situations with him that I have to depend on him as a friend. He is there in a faint background as I continue to grieve what I thougth I had. I thought I had a really great friendship and that he would always have my back.
final continuation
I stopped complete contact with my ex boyfriend who was a abusive assclown, Eum, commitment phobe, narcissist and just a nasty guy all around who happened to be lots of fun, and liked hearing what was going on in my life on a daily, weekly basis. So I had to grieve the latter benefits of what I liked but the rest was horrible.
I tried the friendship thing with my ex AC. I learned exactly what Nat is describing above. If my current Eum was causing problems in my life like he use to or anything like my ex or even a small percentage of problems I would shut the door completely. He really isn’t an issue for me anymore. The only issue I find is that I have to deal with myself and my tendency to idealized jerks. I find lately thanks to the support on here, my friends and Nat. I am repeating to myself daily positive comments such as have faith a great guy is coming because I am no longer going to settle on a loser. no your not missing out on this latest eum because you chose to no longer take crumbs. Just because his girlfriend ffought for him it means she likes crumbs you want a whole loaf but not in one sitting that is too much, but throughout time I would like to experience the whole loaf.
Bottom line I broke the contact that we use to have and I worked through my issues with very little contact mostly on his part. I didn’t contact him. I waited at times to asked him something I wanted to after he contact me, I never initiated it first. I would only suggest this advice for those with kids with the guy or people like me who recognize the situation for what it is and I am strong on what it is I just don’t always like what it is. Other times I realize it is a blessing in disguise and I will one day be saying thank goodness things ended with him and I because look what I have now. This attitude is hard only because I have never had a good guy and I don’t have one now so to have faith in something that has never existed in my world is pretty tough. However I tell myself, you are strong and faith is all you have because what you had isn’t good enough for you, so you only have the choice of going forward.
MH, I’m all about doing what works for you, as in works healthily not ‘works’ albeit dysfunctionally. Only you know your situation and what you are and aren’t doing and if this is working for you and you’re moving forward, keep doing it. The moment it stops working, cut contact. The key is not to bullshit yourself under any circumstances because that is where denial gets its proverbial foot through the door. My one word of caution is that if you were Friends With Benefits, ‘friends’ is the operative word because if you have been treated less than a friend, you’re actually a booty call, and they rarely are healthy situations. In or out of your life, your job now is to keep him real and focus on moving on. You may find that you reach a point where you can let him go in every sense of the word. Good luck!
MH
Does his girlfriend know he is in fairly regular contact with you? Does she know that he has suggested hooking up with you? That is not an honourable way to behave. Even though he has stopped asking you for sex, do you really believe he is maintaining this contact to give you hints and tips?
You were never even boyfriend/girlfriend, yet you are determined to keep him in your life. You don’t want him back, you’re not going to have sex with him or provide him with any support. Yet you need him in your life. I would examine that need – I think that’s what’s led you into this situation over and over. And while you think this situation is markedly different from your other exes, it doesn’t read that way to an outsider.
NML,
Thanks for your support and advice
“The moment it stops working, cut contact”
I agree with this statement above completely.
I am not really holding onto a friendship because I don’t give him the shoulder to lean on like I use to when I considered us close friends.
I don’t get together with him and I have told him that I won’t.
I hear everything you say and I appreciate every word and I have thought exactly what you are saying and if I am in danger of being in pain or anything by him I will shut the door completely and choose me first. I feel at the moment I am choosing me because I don’t let him use me for anything and I really stick to these boundaries that I learned from you and that I was starting to recognize I have deep inside.
thanks again.
Hi Grace,
MH
Does his girlfriend know he is in fairly regular contact with you?
Yes his girlfriend knows we talk because she has been there in the background. She has come home and he said who he is talking with. She has been in the background when her lap top broke and I had the same problem and he was asking me for her, where did I get the cable that she needs. She is very aware of me and that him and I use to be friends with benefits as well. She wants to meet me and he wants me to meet her.She hangs out with him and other girls from his past that he has been intimate with and their spouses too. He keeps friends with all his exe’s and girls he gets intimately involved with. She even talks to the girl that he admitted he was sleeping with while at the same time as her and she says she forgives him because they were not commited at the time. There is nothing going on anymore with him and I so neither of us are doing anything wrong in that regard.
Does she know that he has suggested hooking up with you?
I am not understanding hooking up? He has invited me to hang out with them many times and at times when she isn’t there. Him and I were platonic friends for four years so I have reason to believe that he didn’t have other intentions with me because he was able to keep his hands off me for four years. He has told me that he is commited to her and he knows I wouldn’t with a guy with a girlfriend.
That is not an honourable way to behave.
I am not following how this is not honourable he isn’t making sexual gestures at me, he knows I have stayed away from him, he knows my feelings about people cheating. So far I don’t have any proof that he is mistreating his girlfriend as far as cheating or anything. I barely talk to him so I don’t know what happens behind close doors but it ain’t with me that is forsure. Even when we were involved he has seen me many times decline him when I wasn’t in the mood for some intimacy. I don’t see him so it is physically impossible to be put in this situation regardless.
Even though he has stopped asking you for sex, do you really believe he is maintaining this contact to give you hints and tips?
Everything is speculation. I have thought of what NML keeps saying that they do keep you in their lives for a shag, a shoulder to lean, etc. Except he isn’t really doing that so as it stands he is acting somewhat like a friend.I am not giving it much weight because I don’t really associate with him. I never see him and I barely respond to his messages. When I do respond it is when he is asking a general friendship comment “like be careful about sicknesses in the industry or where can his girlfriend get a new cable for her laptop. He happens to get verbal diahrea at times and start spewing what is going on in his life and tries to find out about mine and that is how I get more information about him than I needed or wanted. I never asked or inquire about it. Either way friends do share their lives so his information doesn’t really alarm me.
You were never even boyfriend/girlfriend, yet you are determined to keep him in your life. You don’t want him back, you’re not going to have sex with him or provide him with any support.
Regardless what anyone thinks we were close friends for two years and friends for six years.
I would examine that need – I think that’s what’s led you into this situation over and over.
You bring up valid points about examining the need but at this point and maybe I have to delve further like you are suggesting it doesn’t feel like a need to me. I don’t see him, I don’t contact him, I barely respond to him that is not exactly acting like I need someone.
I am leaving the door slightly open like I do another guy that I classified as my previous EUM except we had no intimate contact ever but I had a crush on him and he did the disappearing acts and pulled crap on me. The reason I keep that door open slightly is because we as well have mutual friends and there is group outtings and I see him at those and that is the extent of our contact. He pops at my work sometimes unexpectly but I never pop up in his life.
I am leaving the door open slightly with this EUM that we are discussing, in case I have a question like my lap top cord breaks or whatever.Also I have always wanted to keep him in the slight background for whatever reasons. We were friends longer than we were intimate friends. However, like Nat says if it causes me more problems than it is worth I will ceased all contact. I have managed to work through things the way things are.
Also why I was led into this situation over and over or more like why I would not leave permently in the past? I would tell him that I am done because I wasn’t happy but he would convince me that things were going to be better or that I shouldn’t take that particular issue personally.
In the end I chose me because I couldn’t be convinced of those things anymore so that is why I could finally leave the situation that was leading me to participate in it over and over as you say.
So for me I have already examined it but does not mean that I won’t still further examine it. You give a really good point. I know you struggled with cutting complete contact.
The thing that was the hardest for me to give up on and I realized for my own sanity I had to was the fun times we spent together plus the trips we went on. He has getaway places that are owned by his family where we got to go for free and I loved it there. Plus I would find places for us to go to and he would join me.I already did the thing that I thought was impossible for me to do.He has friends that like me and he says I can go with his friends and him and his girlfriend and then I don’t have to give up on the getaway places. I still declined because I don’t share the mutual feelings for his friends.
Hearing from him in the beginning use to bother me but I have come so far now that it doesn’t bother me anymore. Atleast for right now, I just don’t dramatize it, if it does I will come here for support.
And while you think this situation is markedly different from your other exes, it doesn’t read that way to an outsider.
Well thank you for pointing that out because we should examine things others see. There are many times others see things we don’t. I will definately look into this or keep it in the back of mind to see if it is causing any problems in my life right now.
thanks Grace
@MH
I am not sure of the “whole” history, but have seen your posts. If you feel it is healthy for you, have boundaries, have no “deep” feelings for him – I say high five!
I think one has to remember that he seems to be being honest with his current GF – knows who he has been intimately involved with, meets them, and can talk to them in front of the GF – sounds like he is being “pretty” honest.
I do not want a ‘hostage”. I want an adult, mature relationship. I think we have to remember in this day and age that men and women CAN be friends w/o sex, etc. I even liked that my exAC had female friends – thought that was a good quality. Turns out he did not want to introduce them to me and vice versa and could not talk to them in front of me.
Me, on the other hand, couldn’t wait to introduce him to my male friends, had no problem talking to them in front of him, they all knew about him.
The important thing is to stay in REALITY, not the fantasy. I am guessing you have grown tremendously through this relationship.
MH
Thanks for the clarification. You do have this under control. What’s niggling me is that you two have so little to do with each other, why not just kill it off? I guess it’s like homeopathy (not that I believe it). Something very small and insignificant can have a disproportionate effect. He is a part of your old life. To move into a new life you need to clear out the old stuff.
For instance I FINALLY cut off one of my exes from TWENTY years ago. There was no chance we ever would have sex. We hadn’t seen each other for two years. He was nothing to me. But when he sent me yet another FB friend request something made me block him. He is just not a part of my new life.
I get that my experience is not the same as yours, but I feel that if someone is not adding to my life, there isn’t any point having them around.
Of course, it is your life, and it is up to you to decide what’s best for you.
hi Grace,
I don’t think of him as part of my life period, old or new. In my mind he is gone or what I enjoyed the most that he provided is gone. In essense he is gone. I grieve everyday what I had with him.
Why I haven’t cut it off completely is because I did tell him many times I wanted nothing to do with him. I ignored him for weeks thinking he was gone and then he would keep texting, calling, emailing and whatever.I would get upset in the beginning because it felt like he had the control. He would keep responding even though I wasn’t. I would feel content from not hearing from him and then I would hear from him so I felt like he had the power to upset me.
So I changed my mind and accepted that he wanted to keep in touch and chose not to dramatize things. I realized when he called I could ask for information that was important to me or whatever. I embraced the fact that he wasn’t going away. I remembered one of my friends he was involved with many years back telling me that even three years later he still kept in contact with her. I knew deep down a part of me almost a huge part of me doesn’t really want him to stop contacting me. I like it. I realize that they will go away eventually if you completely ignore them and that is not what I wanted I realized. As long as I know that he is not the right guy for me, and that I continue to work through things and come to this site for support during my weak moments or doubts I should be okay. I know I love myself because when I said my final goodbyes which was even before this site. I said I love myself too much to continue to see you.
I like the way it is. I like that he is there if I need to ask him something. I know I can wait until he contacts me. I think I would be more bothered if he stopped. He isn’t affecting me really, I am working on my grieving. What we had is gone so I have had to go through all the stages of grief to deal with what I had. What I have now isn’t enough and makes me want to meet someone who will give me that so I have drive.
Therefore at present I don’t think he is harmful. Lately, he doesn’t tell me too much about the mushy stuff of his life so I feel I can handle things. If he does I have to address that issue when it arises. For now I am letting things be but if it doesn’t work I have to revisit other alternatives at that time.
I too like yourself got rid of an ex last year who was bothering me and I got rid of new female friend that had major issues. So I have confidence in myself that if something isn’t making me happy I will eventually figure something out. I got rid of her and the ex super quick so this guy isn’t bothering me that much or I would get rid of him in a second. I think I know what to say that would work I hope I don’t have to use it because it would put a damper on things with our mutual friends. So for now it all works for me. Like I said if he completely went away I would be posting here about that and dwelling on it. Nothing I would say to him would be about our mutual friends, just they would be upset if I turf him for good. They all like him and they would want us to get along. However, if I have to for my sanity then I will. I choose me.
learnt the hard way that trying to be friends with ex-AC just lets them off the hook. I understand that boundaries are key but am struggling when meeting new people. Was meant to meet a guy last week i reconnected with on facebook, he was really keen, made arrangements but then he had to cancel due to work – genuinely – but four days have gone by and he hasn’t tried to reschedule, and that feels like a violation of my boundaries… but is it? and if so how do i let him know that without dramatizing it? sigh.
If/when he does try to re-schedule let him wait twice as long as he left you waiting for him to re-schedule. Let the terms now be yours, not his. Be alert with this one.
(I wish I could take my own advice!! :))
Hi Fearless,
I think I understand where your struggling point is.
I too was into the entertainment of my relationship. Actually we had the whole friendship thing going on and the fun.
Before him, I was doing school full time and a full time job. I graduated and he came just at that point and was inviting me to weekend getaways too, etc.
I have been in no physical contact for over four months now and he continued to invite me to all the fun haunts we use to go to and new ones.
Here’s the clincher fearless I told him there is one huge problem with going to any of the activities he invited me to. HE WILL BE THERE TOO!!!
I was not just simply trying to be funny, I was making a point to him that I am done hanging out.
I think you are at that level of thinking where your life is at a standstill so to speak. You enjoy your peace because your not a drama seeker, however, you don’t fully understand why someone could future fake for 10 years. You believe and want to believe there is some redeeming factors in your relationship because how can 10 years be for not. Or just some life lessons, or just a complete waste of time. You still want to believe he cared for you but he just couldn’t deal with real love or something along those lines.
When I decided to end things with my FWB I had to come to terms that I would be losing the main thing in our relationship which was the fun. Our friendship was more based on hanging out, going places, and the intimacy was only a part of it the friendship came first.
I never thought I could do it but for three months straight he invited me to awesome things but I couldn’t subject myself anymore to someone not wanting the whole package with me.
I realize I want a man that can’t get enough of me. I want a guy that I don’t have to guess how he feels about me, etc. The problem is I got tired of just getting pieces of a guy I wanted the whole guy or another whole guy.
You have to get on this thinking level. I just had a friend who was dissed by a AC and she was making excuses for him and I said stop it he is asshole and treats you like crap stop making excuses for him.
I always tell my friends when they are struggling that they have to get out when they are ready.
If your life is boring right now, like mine is pretty much since I walked away from my friend. Try and have faith that if we learn to find our own fun we don’t have to take it where we can get it.
My “friend” and I were supose to go to one of my female friends parents lake front property for a weekend in the summer time but I left him before it could happen.
I ended up going with two couples (isn’t that the worst after a break up or having someone around) and a bunch of kids. I dwelled for a couple of minutes thinking, if him and I went up together I could escape all this drama. One of the kids decided to cause me issues for no reason and all the adults especially the parents got completely stressed out and were so embarrassed that the kid did it to me. I am suprised I was still glad he wasn’t there. He even contacted me trying to find out when I was going and wanted to go with me but I said no.
Normally if I had a bad experience like that I would wish he was there to get away from it all. I know he would have a left a day early like I wanted but I didn’t want to bring up my own car to travel four hours by myself so I hopped in with my friend and her boyfriend. Anyways it wasn’t that bad in the end and I told myself don’t dwell you still deserve better than his push pulley game.
I am telling you all this because I can tell you realized it is not a good idea to go with him.That it is good to listen to ourselves even though our alternative plans are not the kind of fun these guys use to provide. We have to plough through it because it means we think enough of ourselves and on the other side there is going to be better and more fulfilling.
WE JUST HAVE TO BELIEVE AND BE TRUE TO OURSELVES.
Thanks, MH. Yes, it is the sheer length of time and investment I have made… and all the rest, as you say, and as Nat’s blog says. But I am, by degrees, with the help of Nat’s blogs and this site, coming to my senses; I don’t want to be his ‘friend with benefits’; I don’t want a pseudo relationship where I give my all so that he doesn’t have to.. I don’t want what he is offering me – which is naff all. I am staying home! London will have to live without me!
I got a message back from him this morning (for those interested in my mini-drama!).. it reads: “I have nothing to offer anyone just now, and I don’t want a debate”
I haven’t answered him. But where do they get off?? He was”offering” a trip to London, if nothing else – he was offering me the position of ‘friend with benefits’! (And he still will be if I am daft enough to take him up on it – and I have been ‘daft’ for a long time, so he can’t be blamed for thinking I will be again!)
I’ll probably message him back … am just thinking of an apt response…any suggestions?!and then I’ll muster my resolve again and bite the bullet (and he will leave it at that – he won’t pursue or message me back again… pursuing is that last thing he wants to get into – he’d be happy for my compliance, so long as it falls on his lap, effortlessly on his part!).
I am realising more and more that I do need to cut him out of my life (and my head, which is the harder part) once and for all and just get on with the rest of my life without him in it – as he says, he has “NOTHING to offer anyone right now” (I am supposing I am just “anyone” then?! :))
@Fearless – Sorry to hear your NC has been disrupted. For what it’s worth, it’s been six months NC for me with my AC now – I can hardly believe it – and I haven’t had so much as a peep from him. I have had to look at and accept the fact that he just really didn’t love or respect me that much, and that’s he’s just not that interested. I know that this only bothers me when I feel tired, out of control or dissatisfied with life, or somehow resentful that I have to be 100% responsible for my life.
I just achieved a huge milestone in my career this past week, and it hurt not having anyone to share that with – as much as I also felt incredibly proud that I finished something bloody difficult, even while being handicapped by the confusion and grief of a relationship and break-up with an AC. I am fine 90% of the time (ie. not thinking of him, fairly happy, busy etc), and I only get a bit twitchy or weepy when my brain starts to focus on something horrible he said to me in those final weeks – like the fact that his instinct was to change me and drag me down and crush me. It still creeps me out (and hurts) that someone looked at me from the other side and saw such ungenerous, undesirable things. Or else, it’s when I think of the dreams and hopes I had and how hugely thwarted (and essentially ungrounded and foolish) they were.
Anyway, I digress (cough), I am not sure whether you’ve replied to the EUM (and I think he is a borderline AC, I have to say – his ‘not open to debate’ comment is pretty abusive, actually – why does he get to silence you?). I think I would reply with a v short, simple, dignified text, along the lines of ‘Thanks for the [London] invite, but I won’t be joining you.’ You could add a ‘And definitely no debate needed ; )’ or a ‘Have a good trip’, but this might sound slightly snarky and I think your only ‘play’ at this point is to pretend that you don’t really care. Like a ‘Thanks, but no thanks, have fun!’ type of tone.
I wouldn’t say anything that says ‘here are my feelings’ because all he will do (I know this from experience) is turn your feelings into irritations, threats or insults and more fodder for him to be the victim again.
Good luck, stay strong, and don’t be too hard on yourself – I am still 10% screwy and I only have 10 months of the AC, whereas you’ve had almost 10 years! It’s going to take some time and practising…
We’re on your team!
For those interested, I did message him back with: “No debate. I have nothing to offer you either.
ps I am not just ‘anyone’.”
I have heard him repeat (ad nauseum) that he has ‘nothing to offer me right now’ for so many years, it felt good to say it back to him. And it is true – I have nothing left for him to suck from me and I am not offering or accepting a return to the status quo, so I have nothing. (note his qualifying “right now”; truth is he has had nothing to offer anyone ever and never will have)
Guess I am back on another try at NC. So be it… friend? with benefits? When he feels like it?Thanks, but no thanks.
I shall give you all peace now from my sad little mini-series. Let’s hope that was the final episode. Thanks for listening – and NML is right; if you keep being their “friend” they have no reason to think they are doing anything wrong; by trying to stay friends we are condoning and perpetuating all their crapology. Let them live in their own crap – with someone else.
Fearless I feel for you. For the sake of your sanity, you must stop engaging. No Contact means no contact and it’s time for cold turkey and putting your ego aside. The reason why it’s not open to debate is that this is not a two-way street. You have both danced this dance many times before and you know the score. He is basically saying
‘I’m inviting you to London for fun and sex. It is what it is – take it or leave it. If it doesn’t suit you fine but don’t try to argue with me about it because you should know the score by now and I don’t want to get into a confrontation with you. It’s been ten years Fearless – you should realise by now that I am what I am. Stop expecting more from me. I keep thinking that you’ve got the message and then you try to ruin things by having needs and wondering what’s going to happen afterwards. Nothing’s going to happen afterwards – it’s a weekend away. Period.’
You deserve better Fearless. Stop selling yourself short and practice what you preach. You have empowering advice and support for other readers but I suggest that you start directing those energies at yourself. (((hugs))))
Thanks, NML. Don’t I know it! – I have been translating his EU language ino ‘real speak’ for years (then I’d try to ignore it!! I keep this big metaphorical sweeping brush and I just swept all the rubbish I didn’t like to deal with under the carpet – so you can imagine, all these years… it’s got pretty manky around here!).
You know none of it was ever really lost on me – I was just lost in my own wants and my own fears (mainly about how I’d cope without him at all; so long as I knew he was there or thereabouts it made me feel that I coud draw on it – even just for what it was. I am the archetypal ‘this was a whole lot better than nothing’).
Yes, I can give advice, but you are spot on and, don’t I know it too, I seem incapable of applying it to myself – I have been batttling with myself to act on my own ‘advice’ and then failing to stand firm – that battle has been wrung out in my head for years and years and years – mostly the on/off was down to me trying to extricate myself, disengaging with his one-way street attitude; giving him a mouthful and staying away from him for as long as I could stand it. Usually about 2 months at most. So, I should not be too despondent; I have not clapped eyes on him since the end of July – I have well beat my record – and contact by text/phone has actually been more minimal than ever before – by far. So, I must be making headway, please God, let it be so.
(my advice to others has not been entirely altruistic, it has to be said; I gain from it by simply hearing it coming from my own head – and typing it out to others also bolsters my own resolve. So, my comments to others here has also been very theraputic and supportive for me.)
Anyway, I blab…cold turkey here I come. I am frightened – of the absolute, the finality, the land of never ever (I am not fearless at all! That’s aspirational! I should change my username to “hopeless but trying hard”!). I know cold turkey is the only way out of this miserable place. Pray for me that I am not completely lost and hopeless (that would be to St Jude then, please – the patron saint of hopeless cases :))
Thanks for hugs, NML; boy, do I need them today.
@Fearless
We’re here for you girl! And you are in my prayers to St. Jude along with some for myself! LOL
You are human, just like the rest of us. You are not hopeless, just going over a few bumps in the road. I like that you call yourself Fearless, that shows hope…not hopelessness. Be strong, you have it in you!
Fearless
The finality you dread is what will set you free. It may take a while longer for you to get there but when you do, it’s not going to feel like the END but a new BEGINNING.
Fearless, you are/ have made progress-you go girl! I can’t remember reading you’re entire story, sorry there are a lot of stories to remember. I had posted on another topic here, somewhere, a link to the trauma bond, here it is again check it out…maybe it will shed some light for you.
great link posted by findingmyself. Thank You
Hi Fearless,
You deserve the title and try to understand that you were with this person for ten years, longer than I have ever been with anybody and letting go takes longer.
I have to say that my life is definately full of peace. I call myself my own best friend. I have found that since I decided to let go of the EUM who was providing me with my social life it has pretty well come to a stop.
My friends that I have had for so many years don’t seem to share the same values as me and ever since I left him I have put distance between me and my friends.
I find this so hard at times because when I experienced my last break up from an actual boyfriend I had my friends and an active social life. So this time around I find I have more time to think about my EUM. Now I go to the few outtings with friends that have good morals and values. Everytime I go out with my other friends I find they do similar behaviours to my last EUM and I am upset after the outting. I then put distance between me and that friend and they start sending me messages asking me if I am dead or alive like my EUM use to ask me when I put distance between him and I.
I am hoping this lull is going to lead me to new friends eventually because I am spending my time trying to create a happier me.
I get the impression as I said before you are afraid that letting him go is going to lead to never having fun again in your life. I think you have to focus on faith and realize that endings lead to beginnings. I think we have to go through this in order to have real fun again.
I get nothing out of my EUM anymore and the good news is I have peace even though I want more excitement in my life, I remind myself of the pain I felt that came after the excitement so it isn’t worth it. I also tell myself that I have felt like this before and a whole new life came about afterwards.
Granted a life with the EUM but it was better than the last life with the AC. Also this last relationship has become my epiphany relationship. I finally ffgured out what I have been saying to my friends for years. I said I have these relationship patterns and I am starting to think they are no accident and that I have to figure out my patterns in order to achieve a healthy relationship. This is how I found this site when I started to realize this.
I know how you feel right now because four months ago I had to give up the one thing I didn’t want to which was my social life with him.
One time a friend of mine who has no instincts planned a boating trip for her and I with two guys who were complete strangers. I didn’t know until the last minute that she never met the guys. I was with my EUM at his lake property and was suppose to cut the weekend short with him on the Sunday to go with my friend and these guys. Friday I talk to my friend and she tells me that she was on her way to meet the guy. I was like “WHAT”, well all of Saturday I was bothered by this and I left a voice mail that I don’t want to go. Meanwhile my EUM told me that it was a crazy idea. I was by myself at his property all day saturday and he was with his buddies out for the day. He came back in he evening and told me he planned a boating trip with one of his friends and me and my friend can come with them on the Sunday instead and I won’t be a in dangerous situation anymore. I think this is when my EUM won my trust. I have never had someone have my back like that. I even thought of this when I was ending things but I realize that was beginning EUM and he is gone now.
Its is going to be better than okay I assure you because everytime I get upset about things I tell myself I won’t let you down you still have me to count on, as crazy as this sounds. It works though. You can count on yourself and you know way better than your soon to be ex. We need to have faith that things will get better. I picture myself having a better social life then before because I picture it with people who will truly have my back for good and there will be fun and no pain at the end of the day.
We have your back on this site because everyone wants the best for each other.
@Aimee, Jennynic, Grace, MH findingmyself,Elle (and anyone else who knows me!!) – thankyou for your posts,kind words and support – it helps me a lot. (yes, findingmyself, your link does help me.. definitely, I have been traumatically bonded… and I do see now exactly why I never talked about my ‘relationship’ – not that he was a secret, not at all – but my sense of shame and guilt and inability to ‘leave’ etc. meant I did not want to dislose or discuss it…I knew what the advice would be and I knew I would feel pressured dump him or, at the very least, to discuss it all, to account for myself, to defend my position, and I had no defense, only that, well, I must be an idiot! So I actually became anxious when friends asked me about him, about ‘what was happening’ with him. And if they pressed me on it I would feel physically sick! I have bottled so much up in myself all this time…
…also, I do definitely have a very low sense of entitlement – I always have had – I can see also where this has stemmed from – I am one of seven children and I felt drowned out by the others who always had first call on everything that was going! I am still always at the back of every queue!… I do not think that anyone is duty bound to love me or want me and I did not expect “him” to – but I should expect to be treated with care and respect by the man who wants to sleep with me – it’s not too much to bloody ask!!
I don’t need him to be my “friend” – not anymore – I didn’t put myself through all of this to be his ‘pal’. That’ll be bloody right!
Now that I can see through the fog I do not care what HE thinks – this alone is like a new found freedom for me! A terrible worry and burden lifted from my shoulders. I actually do not care what he thinks anymore! 🙂 🙂 (For so long, what he thought was sooo important to me and caused me serious anxiety).
Nat is right – pain and hurt is no friend to anyone – I am doing my damndest to hold tight to my self respect (in this ‘relationship’ it is all I have left to salvage! I am not giving him that as well!!); I too keep telling myself I will be my own friend; I will not let ME down…I am trying to talk myself up every day… me validating me.. telling myself constantIy what I really only need to be reminded of: that I have a core of steel and I can and I will overcome.
Thanks to you all and I wish you too to discover your own peace and contentment – and love. x
Fearless, please, i’m begging you, don’t have anything more to do with him. I am literally crying for you here. He is behaving like a complete and utter jerk. I know you can’t see the situation in full because you are in the middle of it, but from where I am standing he is a complete and utter waste of time. Think back to all the times that you have told other women here that their AC/EUM is unworthy – so is your guy. He is every bit as bad as them, maybe even worse as after ten years, ten freaking years, he is still treating you like crap.
He has basically said to you “I just want to have sex. Do it or or shut up.” I know violence is not the answer but I want to punch him!
Don’t text back.
Thanks Elle,
you will read my earlier post (awaiting moderation) saying what I messaged him back. Yes, I think he is borderline AC (though – not that it matters – but looking at his message again, I think he meant that he did not respond right away because he “Didn’t” want a debate – it’s the abbreviations of txt messages that are hard to decipher sometimes – and I know! – the fact that we are text messaging says it all!!
I have been victim, I am sure, to the passive – stealth type control (though I think this guy just acts on instinct rather than consciously thought out design, if you see what I mean.) He has never insulted me (by his overt words), never brings me down (overtly) is never abusive (physically or verbally)… and I have got to know him pretty damn well over the years; he can be and is very affectionate when we are together; he avoids all conflict – with anyone- hates doing the what he calls the “Gerry Springer talk”.. is actually (EU behaviour aside) always very supportive to people – and genuinely so – and never uses hurtful words to anyone that I have seen. In fact he always made me feel like I was the one who ‘let it rip’! He never does. So long as his interactions do not require him to draw heavily on his emotions, so long as we live in the here and now and don’t talk ‘future’, he is – otherwise – a really nice guy to be with.
It is this dichotomy that has been the problem for me. I honestly would not be interested in an openly abusive guy who insulted me ; brought me down and called me names etc…This one is a walking contradiction. His previous text – 12 hours earlier – asking me to London was all ‘babe’ and ‘kisses’ and ‘miss you every day’; soon as I ask him what’s on really on offer I basically get, well, actually, ‘nothing and please don’t drag me into a big diaogue/debate about it’. In other words, come to London or don’t – I don’t want to discuss anything else.
It’s bollocks. But I shoudl get off and stop hogging the airwaves here with my irrelevancies…
Thanks for your interest and support. x
Fearless–
Good response to the asshole.
Now cut him off completely by never speaking about him again to your friends and family, by getting rid of all phone numbers, emails, etc., and by cutting him off from any corresponding with you (have his email address marked as spam or whatever).
Elle–
The guy you knew was clearly jealous of you. Be THANKFUL he said what he said to you, b/c it shows his true character: that he was so envious and jealous that he had full intentions of bringing you down in life. There is a saying, by Mark Twain, “The difference b/w a starving dog and a starving human being is this: the dig won’t bite you when you feed him.”
So many “men” out there are so jealous and/or insecure and/or not knowing who they themselves are (and their value) that they target and bring down the good women. If course, this is after they get what they need from you! (Whatever it is.)
The key with men nowadays is to remain enigmatic. Sure, both men and women say that they want the whole person, they want the person “with warts and all”, but the truth is they want the “sunny” you. Which includes, sadly, NOT giving them advice when they need it, b/c they will only have contempt for you if there is any issue as to whether or not they will use it, meaning, even if they DON’T use it, they (1) found out how you think, and (2) hate that you know that they wanted your advice.
You have to keep things light, show the best side of you, and refrain from giving away ANY information that would impact their life at all (personally, socially, or economically).
Save that for marriage!
A guy I once knew, a true AC, once sat with me at a professional dinner–he CHOSE to sit with me–and I had decided beforehand that, with him there woud be NO significant information EVER excahnged at all, ever, unless he were to ask me out, and even in THAT case, there wouldn’t be such an exchange of info. He actually COMMENTED after dinner was over that we weren’t exchanging info. I then said, “But aren’t we having a good time?” To which he had NO response.
When I became engaged to hy husband, which came as a TOTAL shock to him b/c he had no idea that we were even dating (of course he wouldn’t have such an idea–the women we knew in common were all a part of his harem; they would, interrupt any contact he would have wit me at parties, etc., to the point that me and him had NO chance of EVER going out during the 12–yes 12!!!–years that we had known each other UNLESS he had the balls to actually pick up the phone and call. But that would mean him feeling “guilty” toward the main harem fan, who, btw, he has not given up on being friends with, b/c he LOVES the admiration, even though they are BOTH married! He even seeks the main harem girl out, which I just found out; so her aggressiveness got her to the point of having him in her life forever, if not as her husband, then as a very close friend. Chummy, isn’t it!–Even if tis means that he WON’T see me, and even though I always knew from his mutual friends that he “liked” me).
Anyways, I bring thsi jerk up as an example b/c he actually CALLED ME FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER only AFTER I got engaged, to partner up on a business matter where he “needed my help.” This occurred A FEW YEARS after the conversation, above, where he made those comments. Also note that, though he “liked” me (best), I was STILL associated with the harem. This is even though I never acted like these girls. BUT he liked (and STILL likes) the attention from them! Yes, MORE THAN me!
I always thought that EUMs and ACs really want the girl with class, etc., who doesn’t act like the fallback, but what they really want IS the fucking harem (which is pathetic) AND the girl who walks in front of them when they are ready for marriage.
This is why, if they want Miss Enigma Who Walks in Front of them When they are Ready for Marriage, and end up miserfable with her, divorce or not, you DON’T EVER FEEL SORRY FOR THEM.
Sorry, this applies even to the decent men out there. There are SOOOOOO many decent women, with reputations as such, that they could choose from, WHY feel sorry for ANY man who makes a bad choice with the MOST IMPORTANT decision of their lives? DON’T.
So NEVER FEEL SORRY FOR AN AC, woman or man! Be happy that they are out of your lives! Life is toooo short to deal with their selfish crap! It’s hard enough to find a decent person, with empathy, you don’t need these people distracting you!
@Fearless
My suggestion “sounds like you’re offering nothing as usual – goodbye!”
Hi Peacefrog. I would avoid having a conversation about this as it will come across a bit dramatic. The guy may be busy and you’re not in a relationship. He may be getting himself back on track because he doesn’t want to make plans that he can’t follow through on. It’s too early to be invested in a relationship although I understand if you’re feeling hopeful. Get on with your life. If and when he does attempt to reschedule, see what happens then. If all goes fine, great. If he cancels again, or you go on a date and then he takes ages to get back in touch, be very cautious and/or move on.
Dead on Natalie! I “tried” the being friends with Mr. A/C and it only fueled my anger towards him and the way he treated me. I wasn’t being friends with him, I was doing exactly as you said, waiting for him to validate me in another manner; which he was not even close to doing. It was more painful to remain friends (I use that term loosely) after. It was in fact keeping my emotions tied into him in a way. I just couldn’t handle it. The best thing you can do is “end” it. And when we chose to end a relationship what exactly does end mean?
Definition of END
1
a : the part of an area that lies at the boundary b (1) : a point that marks the extent of something (2) : the point where something ceases to exist.
So to “end” a relationship there should lie a boundary, the point that marks something (relationship) that ceases to exist. It’s over, its done, it no longer exists, if’s FINAL!!
I had eventually remained friends with a couple of ex’s that were “healthy” relationships and we decided together that things just were not working out. So there is a difference between being friends with one ex vs another ex A/C.
If you were treated badly, being friends is NOT the way to go. It only keeps you from really moving on and forward with your life. I know first hand, I TRIED it! Not healthy in any way shape or form.
Bravo Natalie!
I think we need to step back and ask
‘Are these guys wondering how we are coping?’
‘Are they losing sleep at night because they wonder if they behaved properly to us?’
‘Are they concerned about our welfare,health,peace of mind,future,hurt feelings?’
Answer: NO……..
Then take a deep breath and move on.
We see the relationship in context to ourselves. They may have been in a very different place,state of mind when they were with you. I think EUM’s in particular are skilled at the kind of doubletalk which allows them to stay emotionally outwith the relationship whilst encouraging you to give out the benefits of a relatonship eg. comfort,sex,listening,time….
In this respect the person you have to break up with is yourself. You have to realise that how you felt cannot go on….you’re wasting emotions on thin air on an invention of a person that actually doesn’t exist. Mind-numbing but true.
“doubletalk which allows them to stay emotionally outwith the relationship whilst encouraging you to give out the benefits of a relatonship eg. comfort,sex,listening,time….”
This chimes perfectly with what has been happening to me. When he needs a listening ear, praise, a shoulder to lean on, help when he’s ill, encouragement, company; he summonses me, and I’ve always made myself available (because I am a bit lonely AND time-rich AND flattered that such an attractive man chose ME) But I have never felt that it would be reciprocated. And sure enough, when I was ill, it was “Aw, poor you. Email me when you’re better.” He doesn’t ask about my life, my dreams, my career.
When I am giving him all he wants and needs he’ll refer to me as his “girlfriend”. When he’s in a not-so-needy place and I dare to refer to myself as such he’ll deny that I am his g/f, thus making it clear to me that I can expect none of the “benefits” that go with being a girlfriend!
The stage I am at currently is that I’ve reduced the relationship to “just sex” (because that is all I want from him, and because it’s the only part of our association that is fair and mutual) while he is trying to drag me back to giving him all the other benefits of a relationship while still withholding and remaining “outwith”.
So yes, I totally understand what you mean!
I’m digging this post – as I have the last dozen or so. Thank you for all this good information!!
In a nutshell: met a man online. He came on like gangbusters. On the second date he asked “what are you doing the rest of your life?” I waited several more dates before we consummated things, and despite being over-the-top with his gifts and affections, he waited, patiently.
I found it nice to be validated and (what felt like) desired. When he started pulling pouting jags and cold punitive silences when I had other things to do (parenting, events with girlfriends, family matters tending to my aging parents, civic obligations) that didn’t include him, I slowed things w a y down. Way down. He didn’t get it. He proposed, sort of, this past October by way of publishing a love poem of sorts in a local paper; the editor changed the title from what he submitted to “The Proposal” and I ran scared and bothered (but not in a good way).
10 months since we met, I’ve pulled back so far he’s doing all the calling, asking when I’m going to make time for “us” while I’m making excuses not to see him… but I can’t bring myself to sever all ties for good: because I think being friends with him will help him and his less than desirable situation… and I am afraid of hurting his feelings for a variety of reasons, many of which are red flags about his past, his broken relationships with his three adult children, and the two families he began with two separate women. In short, he is not the man for me but that doesn’t make him a bad guy. Does it?
To make things worse, he just moved into the village in which I live, and is working to take another deli job (part time) so “things get better for us” – his exact words. I know I cannot help him secure a good job nor find suitable housing for a 53 year old man with two dogs. I feel bad for him and dumping him seems cruel when he has so little going for him.
I need to look at the negative treatment that popped up when he was feeling abandoned the first time back in May: cold shoulder; stopped calling; believed things were over and said good-bye; tried to guilt me that he had nothing to do when I wasn’t around by telling me I was “the only good thing” in his life, etc. I wasn’t cool with this; in fact, it sent me further away and I haven’t come back to where we were. He, on the other hand, never left.
My self-resect needs to be taken back by me, and I should break up with him and let him go….
Wow. It sounds like you are the one who needs to cut him loose for his sake. I don’t see you as the victim here, sorry. I think you need to “grow some balls”, let this man go and quit stringing him along. Be upfront and cut the ties quickly so he can move on. Unfortunately, you sound like the men we talk about here.
I hate to say it – but I agree with Cindy. Maybe there is some info I am missing here – but if everything you said here is what my AC was doing – PLEASE! Don’t decide how he’s going to “hurt” – that’s his biz, you are not being nce by letting it go on.
I would have slowed things down too if you were not including me in your life. He didn’t get what? Did you at all communicate verbally your hesitancy? Was he suppose to “get something” from your actions? I’m confused just by your post what you want from this man – validation at the expense of his feelings?
“while I’m making excuses not to see him… but I can’t bring myself to sever all ties for good: because I think being friends with him will help him and his less than desirable situation…” Why are you even seeing this guy? If this is the way my AC was seeing things I would be infuriated – why don’t you let him decide if being friends is what’s good for him? We are all adults here – 53 yrs old I think it should be his decision – not yours.
Sorry to be so harsh but it sounds as if you have some EU issues. My God you let this guy move near you thinking he has a future with you? Please re-evaluate what you are doing to this guy – I don’t care what his history is.
“I feel bad for him and dumping him seems cruel when he has so little going for him.” I think it’s crueler by continuing to let him think you have something that is not there.
Good luck!
Yeah, I agree. I would have thought, having read this site and possibly been on the other end of things, you’d recognise his behaviour and see that he’s not only hoping you’ll give him a life purpose, but amping this up because he can sense your hot and cold (hesitant) behaviour. Be compassionate! You’ve got to end things and let him have the opportunity to build his life up for himself. You’re robbing him of his time and dignity. I also sense that you may have omitted or misrepresented part of the story up here, because, as it comes across, it seems like you’re someone in relationship with someone who is fantasizing and planning around you, while you’re clearly emotionally well out the door.
Jenn
You are both responsible for this dodgy situation. He has been too keen too soon and is not detecting the red flags of your ambivalence. He is clingy and overly possessive. You are trying to break up with him in an EU way.
You’re going to have to end it. Tell him you don’t see a future together and the two of you need to move on. Apologise for not telling him earlier. THEN STAY OUT OF HIS LIFE.
Thank you, thank you.
I didn’t “allow” him to move closer to me, he lived in basically a flophouse and was evicted because the landlord wants to sell. Long story, but bottom line, he was looking for several weeks and out of the last three locations he picked here.
He is aware of my ambivalence about “us”, especially after he asked me twice this summer if he could move in “just for a few months to get some cash together.” I stepped back further and we talked about this at length. I’ve come to see we are both passive aggressive in our ways, and that I have not been fair – you are all correct – in allowing myself to keep hoping, and keeping contact with him every few days is not fair.
Your replies were hard to read but I knew I’d come to the right place. Thank you. In the meantime, I will find a way to let this go, and continue learning how to be available and trusting in the future. In the beginning I was honest and open but after some odd and punitive reactions on his part I pulled away, hoping the whole time I wasn’t seeing things correctly. I was but didn’t end it when I should have.
You are all correct and I must end things.
Thank you so much.
Good for you for taking such feedback! I know it is hard to hear our part, but I would rather people be honest with me than tippy toe around. I don’t learn that way.
A true friend, for me, is one who calls me on my “shit”. Not always easy to hear, but if people just sugar coat me – how am I to learn? I wish my AC would have called me on some of my shit!!!
🙂 I have, maturely, called him on his ‘s.’ He doesn’t acknowledge there’s an issue! LOL! He has said I’ve abandoned him – when going on an overnight with women friends from work; when spending special time w/my child; going out of state for business…. times he isn’t included. Other times, in the beginning, we spent every weekend together – I wanted to do stuff outside my home, he wanted to work on my house (which I wasn’t ready for at all.) I wanted a boyfriend not a maintenance man; he wanted to move in after three months. (I wasn’t ready for that, either.)
We both have our ‘s’. I suppose it’s a matter of how much of the other person’s ‘s’ you can live with… or learning to say “no” at the first sign of a red flag.
I’m learning.
Yep Nat.
All in all, i went 6 months or so total NC (at least on my part) and then put my hand back in the fire for the friendship burn.
you called it.
this time i didn’t respond to the my-crappy-life pity party with reassurances and suggestions as i would have done in the past. In fact, I didn’t respond to it at all. The second it went in that direction (one day, it took) I ignored it and stopped msg’ing.
Guess what. Haven’t heard from him since. Guess i wasn’t a good enough ego-stroke.
it’s good in it’s own way though : i can see clearly now what he found attractive about me the most….AND why he blew cold (when i got fed up with the pity party)
Bummer. But a good lesson
Brilliant article,Nat. This “friends”crapology never,ever,ever works.Back in my fallback girl days I was doing it all the time,trying “to shag my way back up to being the girlfriend” as you so aptly put it.It was always disastrous but I was so delusional back then and so lacking in self esteem.A lot of it is also denial.Denial of reality,denial of the inevitable and a frantic need for some sort of validation.It is a vicious circle.
Nowadays I have no contact with any of my exes.I decluttered,just as I would my closets.Like old clothes,they no longer fit the new me.And just as the feng shui principles of decluttering creates space for new energies,there is now space in the closets of my life for real friends. And boy does it feel good to be well rid of the dead wood!
What if they broke off with you, and now a few months later, they want you back. How do you know that it is OK to move forward? What questions do I ask?
Help!
Mirta
The only question I want to ask YOU is why, oh why would you want to go back with someone who dumped YOU?! To do it all over again? I’m just saying hon….if I were you-do NOT go back.
Curious, what was the reason the first time he broke it off with you? How long were you together? What age range are we talking here?
Mirta,
You have to go back to when you were together if it was a healthy relationship or the AC special talked about on this site?
If he treated you badly that should probably provide you with your answer.
AC and EUMs come back only to treat you worst.
I don’t comment over here often, but this is well said. Allowing the connection/friendship to continue does nothing but validate their treatment towards you. Make a clean break, make a stand for yourself and maintain your self worth.
What these men do is horrible, we are the victims. I was a victim of poor parenting, a poor choice for a husband and then on to a poor choice of getting involved with a EUM. I am alone and have been for 13 yrs. I am tired and worn out, My parents have long gone and I do not wish to be friends with either of these men. They robbed me of my good years and now I am all used up. I have learned what these men are all about, I never thought I would be sitting here staring out at the rain, alone, tired, and without hope. I tried to be a good mother and a good wife, I thought I had paid my dues and looked forward to retirement with a husband, and grandchildren all around. Now it’s shame on me for thinking that would ever be a reality. I look at my grown daughters and hope they will not end up where I am.
Oh Hopeful I feel for you. I would come over and visit you and we could talk and look out the window together. I know how you feel – I feel the same. I am 50 and been divorced for 23 years. Always thought I’d be married and have more kids but it never happened. The men I got involved with were all the same as the one I married. Self centered. And I put up with them. I was patient and forgiving and loving and tried to never get too pissed of. It ended the same each time where I had all this built up resentment and then one day BAM!! One last thing and made me walk out the door. Then I would stew and stew over things and wonder why they treated me the way they did, why they didn’t realize what a wonderful woman I was. The ? should have been why did I stay as long as I did. I’ve pretty much given up having a partner and that makes me very sad.
Kim and Hopeful. I am also in my 50s. We should all get together, go to a hotel for the weekend, talk all weekend, cry, get drunk, sit in the bar, walk, laugh, comfort and support, commiserate and say damn the lot of ’em. Do we all live SO far apart? I’m in Sx.
I very much need to implement the NC rule in my life. My dilema is this:
If I cut the EUAC out of my world, I will be in nearly total isolation.
I have no friends or family here, or anywhere in this country. I am very afraid to let go all the way. He wont let go all the way either. When I ask him why he wont let go, he says he does not know, there is something still there. Then he asks me why I still am hanging on and I want to scream in his face that if I let go, I have NO ONE to call on in an emergency. I cant even drive here.
I am trying to make friends , but freindships take time and work to develop like any relationship and good friends ships do not happen over night either. How in the world do I just cut him off?? It feels like I am cutting off my nose to spite my face.
But when I think of the abusive and hideous things he has done and the lies and the emotional internet affairs , I feel so angry at myself for being trapped and hanging on to him so that if a problem should arise I could call on him for something in an emergency. THE NC rule seems logical for most every single scenario, but somehow, when I read about it, I keep saying “yeah but”…
I feel like everyone will want to tell me why its important with out relating to the fact I am truly isolated with out the ASSCLOWN.
Fear, keeps me clinging, and it brews a big pot of resentment, against him but moreso, with myself. I can not seem to find my way out of this mess .
Mel
Even if he was the Best Man in the Whole World, you simply can’t be that dependent on someone. The bottom line is that you MUST have your own friends. You say you are in “nearly total isolation”. I hope that you do know at least one person (who isn’t someone you’ve had sex with). I would focus more energy on that person, maybe invite them round for something to eat. While you have been stewing about your AC/EUM, I can GUARANTEE you haven’t been focusing on your friendships. You simply haven’t had the energy.
If you look in a teeny tiny village in the middle of nowhwere I am sure that there is a pub or centre where people meet up. Go there. If you are in a city, the world is your oyster. Take an evening class, do some volunteer work, join a book group. Friends are not going to suddenly turn up while you are sitting at home.
He is not the answer to your problems. No man is.
I agree with Grace. You may feel unable to cut him out yet but each and every day you CAN make a baby step towards being less dependent. Grace is right – even a village has a pub! There could be a WI, absolutely ANYTHING where you can meet people. Baby steps. Make it clear when you start to socialise that you don’t know anyone here and ask people to invite you to parties etc, find out what things THEY do and ask if you can come along. Three or four months down the line you WILL know people, then you won’t be able to give yourself the excuse of not knowing anyone else.
The bottom line is, if he was killed in a car crash tomorrow, you’d survive, make new friends, and move on.
Good article as always. But there is another side to the coin. What about Women who cut the Man out of the relationship when it breaks down?
The Woman has been the abusive one?
And I have a Question to ask……………..Something I hardly ever see mentioned as a “Dating & Relationship Coach” and yet is very much there.
The children?
Yes having Your boundaries is crucial be it Man or Woman after a relationship has ended. But many of us are Mothers and Fathers and so a “Friendship” of sorts has to be maintained. And although that can be “tricky” especially if the relationship has been “Stormy and abusive.” We have to consider the well being of our children.
Natalie raised as ever very good points. But also consider this. When “Friendship” is involved with an Ex. What kind of messages does this send to any children involved?
After all are We not our children’s “Role Models!” for their future relationships?
Just a “point” to consider!
For Passion
Ange Fonce
thanks – u inspired me to delete all the tags id put on my ex on FB from all the great piccies id taken of him and his pals. and now any new gal he meets wont see my trail of unreciprocated sweetness splattered all over his profile page! x
After 12 years of dating complete ass hats (my personal terms for ass clowns!) I had my epiphany. More like 3 in One…when it rains Ass Hats, it pours. I was the quintessential Let’s Be Friends Door Mat, continuing to let exes linger for fringe benefits while bending over backwards to look like the Good Person. I finally told them all to go f*ck themselves when the opportunities conveniently presented themselves in a 2 month period (not to be confused with hunting them down and listing off their flaws). And it felt awesome. Were they necessarily terrible people? No. I wish them happiness if their capable of it. But people are human, and that means flaws, and those flaws are bound to include taking advantage of those who let you. Think of the friend who calls you whenever she needs a ride home from the bar because she knows you care enough to not let her drive. Add a penis, narcissistic tendencies, and my own need to feel needed. If I let everyone think you’re the Bend Over Backwards Girl, I was bound to attract those who will try to take me for all I’m worth. And no one forced me to let them hang around for as long as they did. I did it for all and more of the reasons Natalie regularly lists. Mostly it was because I had a terrible intolerance for feeling disliked or having anyone displeased or mad at me. I’ve since found that feeling is not the end of the world. If I can get over feeling inconvenienced or irritated with someone, why don’t I deserve the same treatment from them?
I found this blog, and spent a good 6 months doing nothing but making myself happy. That meant hanging out with people who shared my values and truly wanted what was best for me, avoiding overindulgence in the usual vices, working hard at my job, exercising, making art, and really taking a long, hard look at my past and my choices and my accountability in every crappy situation I’d ever found myself in.
One night this past summer I went to my good friend’s party, and I met a man who I have now been dating for the past 6 months with virtually no drama. Every time I think it might veer into Ass Hat Territory, I am pleasantly surprised that we are able to communicate positively and continue to move forward in a healthy direction. I can honestly say that for the first time I am in love, it is reciprocated, and pain free.
The difference between this encounter and all other previous ones I had that were doomed from the beginning? Me. I was truly happy, confident, healthy, and commanded respect with the way I carried myself, held conversation, and ended our initial meeting and following dates. I was myself, not who I thought I had to be to keep him interested. Not bitchy, not defensive, but positive and not afraid to voice my opinions and needs, while recognizing and respecting his as well. If I thought he was saying or doing something that didn’t jive with that? I told him. And I made sure I addressed his actions without attacking him as a person (i.e. calling him an asshole, etc.), dragging in anything from the past, or projecting what had happened to me in previous relationships onto him.
It was really difficult at first. For the first month or so, I wanted to run. I felt nauseous before every date. It wasn’t due to ignoring red flags as I had in the past, but because I knew that this could be the real thing. That was even more terrifying! But after a while the uneasy feeling disappeared, and I let myself come to terms with the fact that I did not need to work so hard to let a good thing happen to me. If I was happy and healthy, and he was happy and healthy, it happens naturally.
I honestly did not think I could ever do this. It felt like a far off dream that I could never quite grasp when I was awake. But trust me…it’s possible. What makes it even better? Realizing that if everything I’d been through hadn’t happened, I would never have gotten to this point. Cheesy? Yup. But I happen to like and love the person all of those events and lessons learned from them have turned me into. 🙂
Thanks for this blog, and to everyone else who posts their stories. It’s truly been a lifesaver.
Thank you for writing this. Am in the final stage of that six month period, building, growing, exercising boundaries, feeling pretty great most of the time, focusing on my loves, but I am still only meeting EUMs and/or being an EUM, so have a little longer to go, but I love the idea of meeting someone when I am already in love with myself (in a steady, gentle, genuine way).
Awesome post…congrats on your happiness. This is a truly inspiring story. I am just into the first month of making myself happy and doing the long, hard thinking process about my past. Thanks for sharing your story…
Hi Actually Happy. Your post was good to read and inspiring. I have not felt like dating since my break up with the AC ( 5 months) and have felt disillusioned with the whole dating scene. You wrote about being yourself and not trying to be what you thought would interest him, and not being defensive or bitchy. I have realized that I come across as defensive when asserting myself and putting my boundaries into action instead of being positive and self assured. It helps me to hear how you applied positive communication and healthy boundaries and it worked, and you didn’t have to be any angry man hating bitch to get your point across. I don’t hate men but am very very wary right now. I am still not quite ready to date but you have given me some goals to work toward. I love all of Natalie’s advice, and read this website almost daily, but it is good to see it in action with positive results. Good for you! And for Natalie’s post on staying friends, I am a firm believer in cutting all ties with someone who treated you badly, and didn’t lose any sleep or have remorse. People make mistakes and there should be room for forgiveness but when someone hurts you and doesn’t care or is morally bankrupt, being friends sounds only beneficial to them. Why bother? Haven’t you been drug through the mud enough?
Been there, done that, the friends route usually doesn’t work. I don’t speak to any of my exes except one, and even our contact is limited. He’s the one who treated me the best and even still, I set boundaries. I’ve ignored the other ones for anywhere from over 2 years and up, and I plan to keep it that way for life.
Looking back, it’s amazing that I was friends with those assclowns in the first place. They were usually the ones who offered “friendship”, not me. But their friendship wasn’t worth shit either, so what was the point of their offers? Dummies. 😐 (I shouldn’t have accepted; I was hoping, with a couple of them, that they’d see my worth and come back around. Boy, was that a joke.)
I’m a firm believer in cut-offs like a guillotine – clean-cut, short, sweet and to the point. Assclowns don’t deserve any more energy than what you’ve already given them. Give yourself and your TRUE friends that energy.
Is it really possible to be “just friends” with an ex, even if it treated you reasonably well and enough time have passed since you broke up?
I doubt it. Just had a quarrel with my girlfriend over this issue. One of her Ex called her and invited her to have lunch. I don’t like the idea at all. I know the guy is married. Why is he -out of the blue- calling an Ex “to have lunch with”? What do they have to talk about now?
In view of the discomfort I expressed, my girlfriend decided to decline the guy’s move.
Am I too insecure and paranoid?
I don’t know about this particular case, but i know a lot of people who are still friends with their exes, me included. It is possible if the guy is decent, the relationship was healthy and ended amicably and there is actually some benefit to staying friends (i.e. they treat you with care and respect).
I get a lot out of my friendship because i lived with the guy for 5 years, he knows me inside out, cares for my welfare, we fell out of love so there’s no romantic feelings at all, no boundaries crossed EVER and we are both always there for the other if ever either of us needs it.
There is no hard and fast rule with these things. You have to judge each situation seperately.
He’s married, does his wife know he’s wants lunch with an ex? With married men I would stay clear, unless you are 110% sure that he has no dodgy intentions. And even then, is it worth it? What exactly has he got to add to her life?
Thanks for your reply. My girlfriend, her Ex and the latter’s wife went to high school together, so they know to one another long ago. They are “friends” in Facebook and Messenger.
My GF says the guy’s wife wouldn’t like the idea of her BF “having lunch” with her Ex-GF.
The guy was my GF’s sweetheart at high school. They broke up. They were together again during some years at College. They broke up again. My GF told me the guy had a hold on her for some time. She had two flings with him after breaking up, when she was dating other guys (the last fling was about six years ago). She says she regrets it and it was not worth it.
The last time the guy tried a move with her, like four years ago, just before getting married, she declined his offer. They have been in touch ever since.
My GF thinks there is nothing wrong with being friend of one’s Exs. Perhaps that’s true, but I don’t like the guy. Even tough I trust and love my GF I don’t like the idea of her meeting up with the guy.
This is not an issue in my current relationship, but still I am glad I can vent it in this forum. Thanks in advance for your comments.
My ex EUM asked to be friends after he dumped me by email. I said no, that it was too complicated for me, that i suspected he didn’t really mean it and wished him all the best (this was before i found this site). I wanted to end it amicably as we have mutual friends and hang out at the same places sometimes. I sometimes regret the fact that i was so nice to him – i should have called him every name under the sun and sometimes i wish i had, but that’s just not me and i think that’s undignified in its own way. I think the fact that neither of us has made any contact whatsoever in nearly 3 months says it all – we both know now that the other has moved on. I’ve mantained my dignity and he’s still a waste of space!
Oh and he’s deleted all our mutual friends from facebook, people he knew for years before he met me. That’s the kind of ‘friend’ he is. I have lost nothing :).
At the moment i am feeling peaceful and happy. This article has blasted away that last niggling bit of doubt i had about not having him in my life ever – this was the last thread keeping me hanging on. Yes he was fun and i had deep feelings for him – but he should not be in my life for so many reasons. Hurray!
Grace; hi grace, i think i need some help from you guys. you know i was meeting my guy on sat. . he told me he had been emailing wife for last two weeks ( so i figured that was why he was still ringing me and contacting me last week) and she’s told him she’s not coming back and to find someone else. he said he was really happy with me when we were together. So we spent few hours sat together and he’s been ignoring me since. WTF? i rang him sun evening for quick chat, he made excuse he had visitors, texted me later as usual 11.00p.m saying they had only left now. at practice monday, he seemed fine. told me he’d ring me later. no phone call. text at 11.00 saying he’s just home, he’ll talk to me tomorrow. Man, the coldness of him and the ignoring is after making my blood run cold. i feel so down today. i know i should have known better than to believe in him.
Audrey
Sit down and write a list of all the times he has let you down. Look at it and ask yourself if this is what you want in your life. All your patience, love, determination etc has failed spectacularly to turn him into the ideal, or even tolerable partner. He can’t even make a simple phone call when he said he would. He is not worthy of you. You can;t MAKE him worthy of you. He is what he is. From where I’m standing I see a married man who hasn’t got the balls to get divorced, who is stringing along two women, is deceitful and unreliable.
Please don’t waste any more time on him. I’m 45 and DEEPLY REGRET my 20+ years in the EUM/AC wilderness. Best thing I ever did was cut every last one of them out of my life.
i think he is punishing me for attempting to cut contact with him eventhough i told him it was too painful for me to be in contact with him when i enjoyed being with him, etc. i mean if he had been in contact with his wife (they’re living apart for two years) why didn’t he tell me that and I wouldn’t have gone through the emotional ringer?
Natalie, you are amazing. Thank you so much for sharing your words of wisdom with us! Now, let us all be action of wisdom. I have not contacted my ex (cheated on me) for about 3 weeks and plan to never speak to him again, even though it is hard…At this point I am just fighting the thoughts of him and her (the girl he was cheating on me with who he now lives with)…letting go is really hard, but NC is a MUST! Anyone who has not honored you is not worthy of you. Period. Keep on keepin on ladies and let’s change these patterns of allowing assclowns into our beds!
A big problem for me too is thinking something is wrong with me – I am faulty… that for some reason I don’t measure up. The guy is being an asshat because he doesn’t like that I don’t dust the corners in my house or that I got drunk that day or the pink flannel sheets I love all winter look like pepto bismal. Ha! Downward spiral thinking of all the mistakes I made and ignoring all the time I spent waiting for him to give me some attention.
I have done a lot of stupid things considering relationships. But I’ve never been on the “let’s be friends” road. I told my ex eum that I never stay friends with exes, and he said “Oh, you will be with me, they all do”. Indeed he has a lot of female friends (mostly former GFs). And hardly any male friends. This was a red flag for me, I should have listened to my gut! This guy, I call him T, was always busy with pleasing his ex wife, ex GFs, and another female friend. In fact he realised that he didn’t take enough care of me.
With my ex husband, I am not an enemy. But we are not friends. We just talk about the kids that we have together. And that is perfect for me. The ex eum (T) found that strange, but in the same time he admired us, that we could keep such a distance between us.
T wanted us to be friends after I broke up. But I don’t even feel tempted. And now when I read this posts, my decission is even stronger. NC rules!
So glad I found this site. The friendship trap is truly the “Last stand” of the AH. I met mine online (1st mistake) 5 years ago and even though I saw every red flag imaginable, I still kept making excuses, Married twice and separated from the second…still separated to this day and over time it was clear he not only couldn’t finish out any ANYTHING in his life, not just his marriage. Just couldn’t take responsibility for anything that happened, and told me the first time I paid for a plane ticket (I always paid plane fares there, he never tried to visit me) he’d insisted he was SOOOO honest with his first wife, when he cheated on her he had admitted it to her, so it was her fault she didn’t forgive him…huh? Sometimes he’d bend my ear for two hours about all the horrible things his second wife had supposedly done (Like to get her side sometime), and I had a pay as you go phone so it was always on MY dime! Fast forward to about a year ago after I’d put up with the disappearing acts, constant put downs, never calling, not even emailing, rages etc, I put down boundaries. It was always talking about the weather, but once I tried to talk reality, that sent him into a tailspin. Within two weeks, he tries to tell me he’d seen a therapist who told him his depressions were caused by me not being close to him (of course it was my fault). I’ve never been to a therapist, but I know enough to know unless they flunked psych 101, they don’t make judgments in two friggin’ weeks. During his two weeks of “therapy” (again, not contacting me) I had found him on a social site listed as single and looking to date and he’d filled that profile 2 years prior to me finding it, and had opened it literally hours after I’d visited. I had asked many times if he was on any social sites and of course he lied about it. That’s all the lying and cheating I need. He played the friends card stating how important my friendship was to him so I tried that, but the misogyny and disrespect continued…he was asking for nude pics (of course I refused such stupid requests!), treating me with the same disrespect and generally it was the same crap, different diaper. I was honestly learning to hate him! When he had a heart attack last April I was actually sorry he’d lived! I already knew he was narcissistic…pegged every check point for that and always treated all of his friends as expendable and replaceable. I got the feeling he did it just to sooth the guilt if he had any, but it was just keeping me stuck. Since throughout the relationship, he’d NEVER remembered my birthday (Nov 9) I decided that was the cutoff…call it a gift to myself. I figured if he didn’t remember it this time I’d just cut contact. He didn’t try to call, and even though he was online sending email jokes all day, he never said a simple happy birthday. I changed my email without explanation (AKA slammed the door) as of 12:01 AM on the 10th and cut him off. I’ve been told I should have given him an explanation because it’s the nice thing to do, but I’m tired of doing things because it’s the nice thing to do…I didn’t owe him an explanation pure and simple. Let someone else waste their nice on him. I found this site on my birthday, and I must say it was the catalyst to push myself to just let it go. The minute I dropped that email addy, I really felt like a huge albatross had been lifted off me, and I never lost sleep or felt badly about it. He’s seldom in my thoughts now and having no contact he isn’t looking into my life, and I don’t care about his. Thank you for the push I needed to get back to sanity! 🙂 As an aside, he was one of those who had to tell me every chance he got how honest he was. It’s always been my experience if they are telling you that, they aren’t. If the evidence says otherwise run like your hair is on fire! Fact is, the only true predictor of future behavior is past behavior. When people get caught out in lies they don’t learn not to lie…they learn how to lie better next time. The only plus I can actually come up with in this relationship is that I didn’t catch anything…that’s an awfully short nail to hang your hat on.
“it was the same crap, different diaper. I was honestly learning to hate him! When he had a heart attack last April I was actually sorry he’d lived!”
LOVE the ‘same crap, different diaper”.
God please forgive me, but I am LMAO on this one!! Mine didn’t remember my bdays either. Once he realized he forgot – he wanted to give me his used surround sound system he couldn’t sell at his garage sale – wow I am so special!!
A used surround around that he couldn’t off in a tag sale?? Jees, can’t these guys get one cell in the frontal lobe firing? Last year right after the break up and he was still ringing me weekly (I have a landline and wasn’t spending anything more on calls) he sends this ecard…on the 3rd. Rings me later and I told him my birthday was on the 9th, not the third. He says he could only remember it was on a single digit date, but both of his ex’s are on double digit dates in Nov. He said I was the only one he sent anything to so I guess that was supposed to make me feel special. He still didn’t call or send any email ON my birthday. Get this though…on the 10th, he calls just to tell me about some woman from London who was in his email harem that had been in the states for a few days and he’d had lunch with her. Then just a couple of months ago, some other woman his son knew was having a B’day party he was invited to. He didn’t even know this woman, but since the heart attack he lost his job, hasn’t been able to even draw disability and is using his retirement to live…and at 58 not many future prospects. He said he had purchased an ipod for her, and how he had agonized over whether he should afford one but did anyway cuz “she’s a good ol’ girl”. Moron doesn’t even know her! Then after the party all he could do was complain about all the rude drunks… the only thing that matters to him is impressing people who don’t know him. If he already has you in his web, why bother? The only reason I stuck around 5 years is because it was long distance so we didn’t see each other all that often (I couldn’t afford a plane fare every whip-stitch!). Had I been exposed to a daily diet of him for any real length of time, I woulda been outta there in a months time tops!
“the only thing that matters to him is impressing people who don’t know him. If he already has you in his web, why bother?”
This is how my ex is/was. I couldn’t figure out for the life of me. He’s telling me he loves me, but treated the neighbors better than he treated me. He remembered their bdays, bought them gifts, etc. Seemed to treat his family well too – when I confronted him on it – he said they were “different” relationships, that I was not family – wow – I had thought of him as my family – we were talking about living together, building a home, etc. He treated me like crap!!
I remember thinking that I would never get over the AC. I would do NC and think I’d moved on but as soon as he came to see me my head would be a mess again. However, I can honestly say I feel completely free of emotion for him now (It has taken time though).
He is very good looking but I know he has nothing to offer so he can do what he likes as long as he isn’t in my life any more.
Great post, very true. If I hadn’t found Baggage Reclaim when I did I’m certain that I would still be caught up with him in some way.
Wonderful posts and comments! Yes, we must hold tight to self respect, it may be the only thing that will keep us from making fools of ourselves and enabling more of their bad behavior. I hurt so much now I think really coming into acceptance and reality. I was touched by the posts of many, especially fearless. I think of it as the 50 ways to leave your AC’S, kind of like the Paul Simon song, “50 ways to leave your lover”. I tell myself there is really nothing to fear because NOTHING is what I had anyway. Great job Natalie and ladies!
I wish there was a time line for this and once you reach a certain point you think wow I really couldn’t give one iota about him anymore it is hard to know that I am still invested in him though I have no contact with him I think what would I do if he called me right now and sometimes my answer is I would get involved all over again and other time it is I would tell him sorry am busy bye..its such a see saw. So should I give myself a hard time because on the odd day if he calls I would get back involved and waste time wondering what hes up to? Or just accept it is part of the journey of letting go and moving on?
Im very grateful for this website I found yesterday, as Im going through the most horrendous time with a man who is EU. After a 7 month relationship and all we had, he simply jumped our of the vagon when the commitment seemed impossible to dodge anymore (it was becoming serious, in his own words). In a matter of days he found a woman in a bar and forgot all about us, only to start emailing and phoning again saying that he has no commitment to her either, it is nothing for him. Im in terrible pain about the whole thing. We were very intimate and I thought we were friends as well as lovers. He got to the point of denying that our relationship eve happened, after getting to know my family and clearly asking me to be his girlfriend and using the term often refering to myself.
I need to go NC but the booklet does not download.He has emotionally abused me, blames me for everything, alternates loving emails with hateful ones, sweet phone calls with horrendous ones, is now sayingI have destroyed the relationship and his feelings for me when he was the person who did all that,actually going to find another woman while still in the relationship, not being expressive emotionally(did not like holding hands or kissing), only expressed feelings in bed. Help anyone!
Hi Lydia,
Ohhhh goodness, this man seems very EU and commitment phobic. I would completely cut him out of your life right now and never look back. Yes, it hurts, and I’m sure he has a lot of charming qualities which you will miss, but he is treating you TERRIBLY. No lady deserves this treatment.
I read this before I made themistake of trying to reclaim a friendship with what you call an “assclown”! I didn’t realize what I would be doing until I read your blog. I soooo agree with it. Your explanation of why we want this is perfect but your discussion of why it is so bad, is even better! Thank you for stopping me from making a big mistake!
Hi Everyone….
I must start this off with a disclaimer that I am venting and this seems the best place to do so before I do something really stupid. Any feedback is so very appreciated…
I read this post along with many of the other posts on this site and I know what the best thing to do is for my situation. You see, I was ‘dating’ well actually just sleeping with and getting drunk with this guy since May. We started legitimately dating and shortly after I moved to a city about an hour and a half away. We’ve remained in contact, him coming and staying with me for the weekends and vice versa. Partying, going out to eat, having amazing sex…the lot of it. He had outright told me he couldn’t give me what I wanted which I thought was a relationship with him. I settled for the crumbs he threw my way and I was cool with it because I am here in a new city and I realized I didn’t want to be tied down afterall. It’s never been my style to have a strictly booty call relationship and I truly cared for this guy but just let him set the tone that it was all fun and games. I looked forward to him visiting and we had fun. Then things got confusing. We weren’t committed yet had agreed we would tell one another if someone slept with someone else. I always believed that he was truthful and I was truthful with him. I did sleep with someone else and told him shortly after (which was a few weeks ago). He didn’t seem too angry but also not thrilled. Deep down I wanted him to be hurt and he wasn’t. I was back in the town I had moved from last weekend for a friends baby shower and I ran in to him at an art show which was such a crazy coincidence. I would tell yall if I had planned that to happen. Long story short we spent the entire weekend together. I left my phone charger and needed to use his phone, went to use it and saw several texts from another girl. “Why aren’t you calling me back, are you mad?” and then the worst “Baby you felt so good from behind me last night. Cant wait to do it again honey” or some ridculous thing like that. I took his phone and threw it against the wall. I had been honest with him and he was lying. Probably for awhile. I figured out who she was and turns out she lives in the city I now live in. I actually know who she is.
My question to you all is do I tell her that I was with him all weekend (when she was calling) and that he has most likely been going from one house to the next? OR do I just let him keep smelling himself and doing his thing with her? I don’t want him back in my life and I could care less if I see him again. And admittedly I am angry, hurt and feeling like an idiot. I guess before I send that message to her I wanted to get your feedback on what you would do if you were in my situation.
I bet everyone will say just walk away, NC. But getting revenge by telling her is very tempting. It is also true to say that she, too, is a woman and a sister, and deserves to know who he is and how he behaves, so she can save herself. But doing so just perpetuates your involvement with this man, so the sensible thing is, walk away.
Right from the word ‘go’ after that AC/EUM stood in front of me, and told me in so many words he had no further use for me, but i could remain a ‘friend’ and act as a cleaner to tidy his house when he moved on to live with a relative (words still fail me here about that statement – cheeky git), i took the view that despite how i had truly loved this guy, i would never, ever, want anything more to do with him – and i have kept my word. Why on earth would i want to stay ‘friends’ with a slimeball like him who cheated, lied and treated me like something from underneath his shoe once he decided i had to be dispensed with?
I am just glad i dont live by the same conditions he does and i have morals and integrity – things he would know nothing about if he was smacked in the face, Nope, i have stayed NC for 4 months and even though i sound flippant about the way things ended after 3 years, i am determined that i get on with my life.
I have been out on a few dinner dates with men, so far, so good, i realise there are decent men out there who ask nothing in return off you but love your company. It’s a whole new world to be wined and dined and have interesting conversation which doesnt include a sexual element straight away which is what the AC/EUM did on our first meeting – disrespectful pig! I should have seen the red flags then on reflection.
So, i go onwards and upwards. I shall never forget the AC/EUM, he was a part of my life, for 3 years, but i do feel sorry for anyone he may take up with in the future (well i found out he had someone while he was with me), he will never be able to restrain himself from cheating, lying and just being a total a*sehole. Not my responsibility anymore and you know what – the feeling feels great!!
My days are now happier, i am looking forward to Christmas, and i wish everyone of you suffering from the way these idiots treated you will finally see the light and overcome the disgusting way you were treated. (((((hugs everyone))). xx
I find it absolutely incomprehensible why anyone would want to stay ‘friends’ with an ex who treated them like something under their shoe at the time of break up. I cannot understand either why anyone would just want to stay ‘friends’ to have sex with them knowing that they would not be getting any other type of decent treatment or benefit an otherwise ‘girlfriend’ would get especially if they were the ‘girlfriend’ before being cast aside for someone else. How awful anyway to keep seeing someone you loved with someone else and as for sharing them sexually – thats a definite no-no for me personally.
What has happened to the self esteem of the women who allow these men who disrespect them in this way because these ex’s are being disrespectful. It saves these men from having to pay for their sexual needs while degrading the ex who they obviously could not care less about anyway otherwise they would not be a ex.
Ladies if you are not good enough for them in any other way, wise up and kick them out of your life completely. Sex is bonding and you will never get over them if you allow it to happen in the hope they may just begin wanting you back again. If thats the mindset it will be a rude awakening – they will not want you back, they have moved on to another victim and you are being used and shabbily treated.
It hurts like hell on earth to break away completely and go NC initially as i know but believe me it cannot be as bad as hanging on in there when these men are treating you like the trash they put out weekly and dont have any respect or care about you if you have just become a booty call to them.
Once a relationship is over, especially if the ex has told you in no uncertain terms they dont want you anymore for whatever reason their twisted minds can conjure up at the time they tell you, it is finito, move on out of there, dont hang around to be subjected to abuse and make yourself feel cheap while
they get an ego stroke, a shag or anything else they would not give you when in a one to one relationship.
it’s Thanksgiving and i am sitting here so upset about my ex eum (we broke up four days ago). i just keep coming back to baggagereclaim to convince myself that i am so much better and deserve so much more. i am so sick of hearing him say “you are an amazing girl, i just feel like i could never make you happy” or “i have been so sad about this, it’s all i’ve been thinking about the last few days” or the best “i know i will regret what i did”. he has asked me why we can’t be friends and still see one another…are you kidding me with this? why, so you don’t have to feel like such a piece of sh*t?
i appreciate this blog so much. i hate that there are so many of us that are going through this however, i know i’m not alone in this quest to find a men that will treat us how we deserve to be treated.
i am nervous because i know i will probably see him out tonight. i did last night and i blew up at him. i couldn’t help myself lol! he deserved to be told that he is a toolbox and has mistreated me this entire time. and that i feel like i’ve wasted a year and a half of my life (which is partly my fault i know). i have read the other post that states that it really doesn’t help to list all their faults because they don’t listen. i get that and completely understand. my switch flipped.
thank you natalie for creating this blog…..i know i will be a regular from now on.
@ amanda marie
Please do not be tempted to be a ‘friend’ with this, hopefully, ex-EUM, they are simply not worth it. I did not know about the ‘friends’ card until i came to Nats BR site but i turned down the invitation from my ex AC/EUM and i am so glad i did after reading how it is only to the ex’s advantage to have you as a ‘friend’.
You see, they can keep tabs on you, see what you are doing with your life since they disposed of you, and see if you have moved on to someone else. They dont want you, but they dont want someone else to have you, or they want to keep you onside so that they can call you up when they are feeling unloved or need someone to sleep with etc. Selfish gits!
Stay strong, everything your ex said to you, mine said to me and more BUT i cannot now trust that he was not lying anyway, so what he did say over the 3 years together means nothing to me now and i am staying NC. I know its hard to do when you think of some of the good times you had together, but trust me its the only way to keep your sanity by ignoring their approaches.
I have so appreciated this blog and fortunately I found it as I was going through a breakup. I did the no contact thing and as hard as it was, I found renewed self-respect and connection to myself. I put myself and my healing first and it has been amazing. After 6 weeks of NC (he contacted me on my b’day and got a cursory reply from me), on Thanksgiving day–as I was on vacation in Paris–he texted me: “I miss you so much it hurts. I need you”. This, coming from a guy who withdrew from me and essentially made me break up with him. After hours of trying to figure out if or how to respond–because part of me wanted to go running back–I simply told him I was in Paris, he broke my heart and there was nothing left to say. It was simple, honest, direct….and basically made him ‘get’ that I will not be toyed with.
It is hard because I really did love him–until the sheep’s clothing came off and there was a wolf underneath. It took five months, but I’m glad it happened. I have learned over the years that as hard at it is, the truth is the truth and it must be faced. He is not the guy I thought he was and he never will be.
Thanks again for hosting this site. It has been a source of strength for me.
So needed this. Just got another email tonight from the ex, with whom I have not spoken since the long breakup/closure talk in September. I returned one email in October after receiving many calls to say: I said no contact. Now he emails on major holidays to say how much he misses me. Tonight is an anniversary (which he has misremembered the details of) and now he speaks of being ‘afraid’ of this anniversary time of the year. I was his best friend, he says. I know I was. He wasn’t mine.
Either way he continues to prove to me why I broke it off: I state my wishes, he hears something entirely different, busts my boundary and claims I didn’t communicate clearly.
What is your opinion on email blocking? I’ve heard keep the emails just in case it escalates and you need evidence that he kept pursuing. I’d have less drama if I just didn’t see the notes.
This is where I am stuck at the moment. I reduced the relationship to sex-only, then I stopped the sex. Now we are supposedly platonic friends, but I haven’t seen him for two weeks and I miss his physical presence so much, and the sex even more.
I’ve been browsing the men on internet dating sites and realised I am just looking for a clone of him. What a saddo I am, eh?
I’m still phoning him every few days, we exchange emails, all very polite and friendly; we speak as though we expect to meet, though I’ve deferred these meetings with excuses. He’s complete passive and just goes along with whatever I want. If I told him I want NC he’d just accept it, and some would say that his indifference is reason enough to go NC.
I’ve read Nat’s blog at the top of this page and it says IF he treated you well it’s OK to be friends, but others on here have advised me to go NC. It depends on the definition of “treated you well”. He thinks he did, and I don’t think he intended me any harm. But I have been obsessed and distraught for months. He doesn’t realise how much he’s hurt me just by being EU, and a narc (NPD). Part of his condition is that he has no empathy; he cannot see things from anyone else’s point of view. So the question is, should he be “blamed” for the emotional damage he inflicted on me, or should I just see him as someone with a mental disorder, make allowances for that and have an arm’s-reach friendship with him?
I don’t know what to do. I am in no man’s land. Each time I think about NC I panic. I’d feel so empty inside if he wasn’t in my life at all. I have very few friends, almost none that live locally am quite isolated and get lonely at times. Even though he only ever wants to talk about himself, that feels better to me than not seeing him at all.
I’m just treading water at the moment, biding my time, keeping contact but not seeing him, hoping I’ll get increasingly used to not seeing him, or that it’s OK to see him.
In time my mind will work out what it really wants.
omg! I’m the Queen of trying to be nice and be his friend. I know you’ve written about this before, but I really GET this. I felt SORRY for the butthead. I thought I’d be nice and try to be friends – or it was my hidden agenda talking, that I’d be so great as a friend, he’d want to have a relationship with me … you name it. The difference this time is as you wrote, NML, all those other times, he must’ve thought he wasnt such an a-hole after all. He did throw it in my face, that I came back. He wont ever get to again. He is out of my life forever.
@Annied
The sad thing is, there are alot of them out there that feel & believe that if you stay friends – they can’t be all that bad, she/he stayed friends with me. To me – that’s an insensitive coward. My ex always said “all my ex’s want me back” – and he stays friends with girls HE KNOWS still want more – that’s cruel. He does not give a rats a** about the other persons feelings. He kept trying to be my friend, but I said no. Either we’re in or we’re out – I am much better OUT Thank you!!
Great article and so true. Back in my younger days, I always tried to stay friends with my ex’s. BIG mistake. Ruined my self esteem. Won’t do that again.
This article really made me feel validated! Thank you for writing this and all your other articles…they are helping me immensely! I was seeing a guy for about 6-8 weeks and it was pretty intense. I knew the moment I met him that he was the one for me. I never felt that way before about a guy – ever! A couple weeks ago he told me he wants to be just friends, that he’s feeling pressure towards marriage and commitment and he thinks we should take things slow. However, when I clarified “just friends”, he said we are both free to see other people. That’s not slow, that’s stop. I was crushed, I mourned, cried, I got angry, and through it all he was so thoughtful and nice to answer any of my questions. What a nice guy, huh? It took me a while to accept or realize he isn’t interested in me anymore, for whatever reason; but once I figured it out, I realized I couldn’t go on being friends with him. I told him I didn’t think I could be just friends, and that I needed to put a time limit on this. He whined a little and sounded upset, which made me feel good; so I agreed. However, the next morning I woke up at the same time his alarm goes off and just burst into tears. I realized I couldn’t do this. About a week after he told me he isn’t interested in me any more, he told me he thinks I am using our “relationship” (or lack thereof) to validate myself or find happiness. I would argue that I was only looking to him to validate that the things he previously said to me were real (clearly they weren’t). So in spite of his many attempts to keep me as a friend, I told him I can’t be friends, he can find another friend. I realized if he doesn’t care about my feelings now, how hurt I am, he isn’t my friend. And like magic, my anxiety, tension, and all the stress that had been making me physically ill just left. I felt so validated when I read this article and realized I am healthy for acting on my instinct to not be friends with this guy! If he did have any real feelings for me, he will get his act together and figure out how to stop being emotionally unavailable. Until then, I will go with “he just isn’t that into me” and find someone who is. I am a pretty happy person, but this deep abiding desire to be loved by a man has always been with me. I hope this is a normal human quality, and I hope to meet that man in the near future. But part of me still hopes it will be him. Does this mean I am still being unhealthy?
what can i say? I LOVE DIS!I LOVE DIS SOOOOOO MUCH!
WOW this article was just fantastic!
I was just in a situation where I had agreed to remain friends with my ex, because he said “I could really use a friend right now.”Everyday was horrible I felt like I was treating myself less then human, I felt as though I was saying to him “Yes, that’s right I have no self respect at all.” The break up was not good and he had said some nasty things to me. The friendship request came two hours after the break up.
Being friends with him was like being demoted from CEO to janitorial service
So after twenty days of feeling like I was betraying myself I told him that even though I love him and care about him I love me and care about me way more to do this to myself and now it’s time to move on.
It has been two weeks and yes the days have been sad at times, but for the most part I am now properly healing and getting better by the day. 🙂
Hi Kathleen,
Good for you. And thank you for your comment. I missed this valuable post. Remember, don’t let him “jig your lock”. Totally love that phrase. It is wonderful you are choosing you.
Someday these exes will be “somebody we used to know”!
Hello,
I posted the other day. Thank you runnergirl for the reply!
I must say I absolutely love you Natalie.
I have always been a strong minded person, but sometimes when you HAVE to make hard decision it’s nice to have the support that I am doing the right thing by me and for me.
I have a few girl friends that think I am making a bad choice because in their eyes, he just has a few problems he needs to work through, he’s going through a tough time blah blah blah…
As I see it and as I’ve told them these so called issues he has did not just appear for him. they have been there and he should have thought twice before getting into a relationship with me until they were fixed.
I do not want a man I have to repair because he’s had a few bad moments I’ve had some bad moments as well and I don’t take them out on people who care about me.
This may sound strange… but sometimes when I’m feeling alone and that maybe just maybe my friends are right I sit quietly and meditate and I think about a large open field of wild flowers and in that field is a better version of me and she hugs me. this is my soul thanking me for not letting her down and weakening her
Would you please help me? I broke up 7 months ago. I hadn’t read this article. So I accepted his friendship. Then I changed my mind. But again I felt bad and asked him to contact. I changed my mind six times and made a fool of myself. At last he told me to make a firm decision and I pretended to be completely well and said in the past I was angry, but now he can contact whenever he likes. What should I do? If again I tell him not to contact, I will sound completely stupid.
Aw Mehri
Tell him – via email or text (yeah I know, I know):
“I’m sorry to change my mind again but I’ve thought about it and it’s better for me to move on. We’ve tried being friends but it hasn’t worked out. I wish you the best. Mehri”
AND THEN DON’T CONTACT HIM AGAIN!!!
Let me ask you this Mehri, Do you feel more of a fool being his friend, or not being his friend?
For me I felt like a fool being my ex’s friend because I felt that it was going to most definitely stifle the process of moving on and getting better.
You should do some nice things for yourself!!! I myself went out and purchased a new outfit nothing to pricey, I went an had my eyebrows threaded for the first time a little painful, but they look great now, and I went and had my nails done, nothing major just a nice red polish and top coat…
Do not punish yourself…Be good to yourself!!!