In the summer of 2000 in a hotel room in Fort Lauderdale, I vented every last thing that my Mr Unavailable of two years had done to piss me off. The hurt, pain, frustration, rejection, humiliation and every damn emotion I had felt during our relationship culminated in a volcanic eruption where his flaws and ‘crimes’ flowed unhindered.
1) He’d hurt me. Badly. (For a recap, this was the guy who told me in our ‘debrief’ that the reason why he’d treated me badly was because I hadn’t explained to him what it would be like to be in an interracial relationship…)
2) He could stand to learn from it and maybe he wouldn’t make the same mistakes in his next relationship.
3) I hoped he’d feel some level of remorse and I was effectively seeking validation.
4) I wanted him to feel as small as I had.
I’ll admit it – it felt good to get it off my chest but even though it was a few years before I’d have my epiphanies and break my old love habits, afterwards I felt embarrassed that I’d reduced myself to behaving that way. As I recalled what I’d said, I actually felt more worried for myself because here I was listing off a litany of relationship crimes yet I’d still been with him for two years.
The question for me was: If he’s that much of an assclown that I could wax lyrical for the best part of thirty minutes about how horribly he’d behaved, doesn’t it say more about me than it does about him that I had that many grievances but I still ‘put up’ with him?
Many of us have listed a partner’s flaws and even more of us have psychoanalysed them, believing that because of our feelings for them, our expectations, desires, and needs, and of course anything that we’ve experienced, that it gives us license to tell them ‘the truth’. As I read through comments on here and Facebook and the many emails, I consistently read tales of people explaining to their partner or ex that:
They’re emotionally unavailable. You don’t think it’s the first time they’ve heard variations of that accusation do you? The habitually emotionally unavailable have danced this dance many times before. What do you expect them to do? Magic up some emotions? Suddenly become available?
They’re a narcissist. If you’ve gone to the trouble of ‘diagnosing’ them as a narcissist, I’m going to assume you’ve done enough homework to know that if they really are a narcissist, the last thing you should do is call them one as they may become verbally or even physically aggressive or do something to ‘punish’ you.
They’re an assclown or an asshole. Golden rule to live by – Even when someone is an asshole/assclown, it’s a rare person that’s going to appreciate you telling them. The great majority of us cannot handle being insulted! Again, like the narcissist situation, be very careful making this pronouncement as they may lash out.
They have ‘issues’ which they need to fix so that they can give them the relationship that they want. Dear Florence Nightingale, it’s not your job to fix/heal/help and they need to sort out their issues for themselves, not so that you can get what you want. If they have so many issues and can’t give you the relationship you want, put your energies into a healthy partnering instead of loving through control.
Now I’m not disputing that they may very well be these things and more, but it is time to start asking ourselves what is the objective of saying this stuff?!
When you seek to Tell Them All About Themselves, you’re inadvertently legitimising whatever negative perceptions that they have of you plus you’re actually being disrespectful. Whether it’s that you list their flaws or their ‘crimes’ of relationship injustice, or you call them names or diagnose them, you’re being disrespectful, hurtful, aggressive, passive aggressive, controlling, and potentially childish.
As I wrote yesterday, as humans we’re taught that when we do bad things we should experience consequences and suffice to say, the first thing someone thinks when you Tell Them All About Themselves is ‘If I’m really that bad and have done even one of these things, why the hell are they with me?’
When you Tell Them All About Themselves, if they have already drawn less than flattering conclusions about what you will and won’t put up with from them and how much self-esteem you have, by telling them their flaws and/or crimes, you end up reconfirming that you’re the type of person that by your own admission would put up with someone treating them without love, care, trust, and respect, because you want them and the relationship or perception of one, more than you value a quality relationship and self-respect.
Just as I have received many comments and emails from readers sharing tales of them Telling Them All About Themselves, equally I’ve received many about the pain and damage experienced by someone else’s cruel assessment of their shortcomings.
While it’s fair to say that the truth hurts, sometimes it’s not the truth. When we’ve had partners and exes make false accusations, distort the truth, outright fabricate their own version, blame us for their actions, or claim that we’ve got issues, it damn well hurts. When someone wants to dodge the responsibility of the pain caused in the relationship and also cause pain at the same time, they will say whatever they need to, to create their own truth.
Likewise, when you engage in the act of Telling Them All About Themselves by listing their flaws and crimes against the relationship, what is at the centre of it is your own pain and ego. It’s you avoiding looking too closely at your contribution and focusing on what you perceive to be their shortcomings and their problems so that you get to be right and you stay in your comfort zone.
This doesn’t mean what you’ve experienced isn’t true but the fact of the matter is that much like in the debriefing situation, you’re trying to push your own truth and get validated. That doesn’t mean the truth isn’t the truth but let’s be real, when feelings and emotions are involved, the truth is what makes it easier to digest the situation. We may leave out things that we don’t want to face. It’s also important to remember that if you’re not bullshitting yourself, your truth is your truth – they can’t take that away from you and it’s no less valid if they don’t stand there while you Tell Them About Themselves and agree to your assessment. You can’t force someone to see your view of things…especially when they really are an actual assclown that gives themselves license to liberally press The Reset Button. When you’re talking, they’re either keeping their finger on the button or plotting revenge while still keeping their finger on the button.
As one very lovely reader recently discovered, telling her ex who she also works with that he’s an assclown proved to have dire consequences. He humiliated her at work showing off out of context emails she’d sent him so that he could ‘prove’ that he wasn’t an ‘assclown’ and derailed the professionalism of their work environment. She had the choice between giving up a job she loves or being forced through mediation with him (she took the latter) because her pain, and yes, even her ego and the relationship became bigger than the reality of what’s really important. I think he has only proved that he is an assclown, but she learned that it’s not her job to teach him to suck eggs and that she doesn’t have to have the last word.
And yes often we do want the last word. We want to be right, we want to be vindicated, validated, and get rid of some of our pain but the lesson we have to learn from painful experiences that detract from us and our self-esteem, is not to go on a quest to enlightenment and teach grown people decent relationship behaviour, but to enlighten ourselves and be accountable for our experience so that we don’t keep throwing ourselves in the front line of pain.
If you have that many things to complain about and they feature things that are red flags of unhealthy relationship situations, it’s time to ask why you’re still there? Don’t be a Stay & Complain type or a It’s Over But I’m Gonna Keep Reminding You Of My Pain Till You Validate Me type.
Often when people find my blog, they’re looking for a solution to their problem, but what’s interesting is that the solution they’re looking for tends to be trying to figure out what their partner’s problems are. While it’s good to understand what you’re involved in, don’t spend your energies trying to play Diagnosis Assclown etc. Even when they are a Mr Unavailable (or Mrs Unavailable), an assclown or a narcissist (they need 5 of 10 possible symptoms to be diagnosed as such) and you list their problems like the alphabet, you need to be asking what it is that works for you about being involved with such a person, not hiding behind their problems.
As I said in my post on debriefing after the breakup,
“The truth of your breakup or relationship] isn’t to see yourself solely as the source of the problems but to accept that they had their part and that you had yours. You don’t need to split hairs and say well he did 76% and I did 24% or whatever – the portion really isn’t important.
What can you stand to learn from your relationship? Relationships and the issues within them don’t happen in isolation. If you stayed in a relationship where there was dubious stuff going down – when you play the relationship back slowly, what do you now see that you didn’t register then? What would you do differently? What have you learned for next time?”
When you have valuable information in your hands that tells you the reality of someone enough for you to be able to go to the trouble of listing their flaws and crimes, do something with the information and ensure that you tell yourself everything you need to, to take action and find yourself in a healthier place. Address you first before you address them – the easy route is telling someone their problems but can you be as truthful with yourself?
Teaching someone who mistreats you that there’s consequences sends a far bigger message than putting them on blast. Let the last word be your actions.
Your thoughts?
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‘she learned that it’s not her job to teach him to suck eggs’
this feeds into the dilemma i’m having while trying to turn over a new leaf… if someone crosses your boundaries somehow (in my case by arranging to meet, cancelling then not getting back in touch – so nothing earth shattering) how would you call them up on it without looking like you’re trying to teach him to suck eggs? or if you don’t bother – are you letting him get away with crossing those boundaries?
Boundaries are for you, not him. He did violate them — by treating you disrespectfully — and now you get to invoke the consequences. Namely, you get to protect yourself against his ever doing that again by giving him an invitation to the world. Let him make and break dates with someone else.
Totes agree Natalie! I – somehow – had the presence of mind not to diagnose my AC for him, even though he had said some of the most brutal things about me as a person, a girlfriend and a potential wife.
I did make it clear that I couldn’t talk to him because I would then be participating in a conversation where he wasn’t going to be as honest about his own contribution and that all we’d do is have a conversation where the relationship and me were devalued to nothing. I also said that his behaviour towards me breached my standards and hurt me, but I didn’t diagnose or carry-on. It was only one statement and I made it clear that I did not want to judge, I just needed to accept and move on.
These were the reasons:
1) I knew that even the most compassionate diagnosis would be a thankless task – and he’d just take it and run (I’d be someone who knew the real him and was therefore disgusting). He’d belittled his exes for their feedback.
2) I know from experience that what is said in those first few hours/days/months of a break-up is not the entire truth. You state this in your post – and it’s true. I remember saying all sorts of shitty things to my ex-boyfriend (pre-the AC,) all because I wanted him to tell me it was OK to leave him. I wanted to get rid of my guilt for (a) leaving him and (b) being a coward about leaving him (we were living separate lives but every time I’d try to talk about it, he would say that I had to either chose to live with it or leave, but he wasn’t going to change or leave me)…Anyway, the point is that when I did finally leave him and when he hooked up with someone v soon afterwards (whom he’s still seeing – and she is a better match for him), I had a real hissy about it, saying all sorts of vicious things about how hard it was being with someone who denied my emotional reality. He did not respond (classically!), and then, much later, I realised that a lot of it was about me not being brave and taking responsibility for my life. This guy was a lovely person – kind, warm, talented, but simply missing some essentials for me. I didn’t have to make it this big, horrible thing about him, and it was unkind of me. We’re friends now (after a couple of simple conversations). I later wished I’d had some faith that the world would work it out either way – I didn’t need to stamp my feet.
This is distinguishable from a situation with an AC – where there can be a maddening need for justice and where the hurt is deeper, tapping into childhood stuff. BUT, the point remains that it took me almost a year to look at what happened in this relationship in a fair way, without the ego, the loss, the need for validation. I was actually just in a lot of pain.
So, yes, Natalie, I agree! I think diagnosing them is part of understanding the injury – which is vitally important – but as far as getting over it and moving on, it’s hugely limited.
Being with an AC/EUM and letting it continue is like being in an awful fog, in slow-motion. It’s scary to now be living in sharp focus, but so is any intelligent understanding of life, and I mostly feel grateful. Sometimes frustrated, but mostly grateful. It’s not about the AC.
“‘If I’m really that bad and have done even one of these things, why the hell are they with me?’”
My exAC asked me this a few times as I barfed his indiscretions. Finally the last time he said it – my reply I don’t know anymore. Last time I saw him.
I was immature and wanted to hurt him like he hurt me. Problem is I probably didn’t hurt him at all and ended up being as abusive, disrespectful, unloving, etc as he was.
“you need to be asking what it is that works for you about being involved with such a person, not hiding behind their problems.”
Wow – well said Nat. Settled, settled for crumbs cause I thought it was better than being alone. I lost so much – so much self love, respect.
“Teaching someone who mistreats you that there’s consequences sends a far bigger message than putting them on blast. Let the last word be your actions. ” Well said!!!!!!!
Thank you -you have all been my life raft!
I think I’ve read every one of your posts on this site, and this is my very favorite. Thank you! It’s absolutely true, and the best that we can hope to learn from our experiences.
What I could have done differently? I could have left the 20 odd times that he disrespected me or was plain rude or insensitive. When on our first evening together I was being spontaneous and telling him about my life and he went out on a tirade how I should “improve myself” because there is something wrong with me. I am open to criticism but one that is in context and well-timed, that was out of the blue, weird kind of thing of the type “wow she has such a great life, I am jealous, let’s spoil her mood” and he did that so many times later…seeing me happy and pronto! setting out to destroy it sometimes in a pretty ruthless, stubborn, childish way. Sulking, big man, almost 40, stonewalling me, withdrawing completely because I dared to say a joke.
More than that, he was controlling, narcissistic and boy, the most self-centered, self-referential person EVAAA!! The first week together we were in a restaurant, beautiful mood, he was sitting there, talking about himself, complaining for an hour, not even asking what my opinion was or using “isn’t it?” questions (his most striking feature, he never does this) so long, that I decided to conduct an experiment. I didn’t butt it, I didn’t say anything, just watched if he comes to the idea of asking ME something or about me. No! Not a single thing. We quarelled about his disinterest in my life many times later. I felt that he slides on the surface all the time, like I DO NOT EXIST IN FACT. Disinterest and lack of commitment morphed in so many ways in him, not in just such trivial situations.
I should have left at the first attempt to sabotage our relationship, conscious or not. When my mother was waiting with dinner to meet him for the first time and he was late. I should have left at the first passive or active verbal aggressive outburst. I should have never looked back after he told me how he treated his exes when they started demanding more commitment (“she wanted a child so I gave her a cat, hahaha!”). I was the next in line. Next to be hurt this way and humiliated because I LET him.
And more importantly: I constantly analysed his behaviour, rationalised it, tried to “understand” him and I was sending him papers, literally academic essays in psychology guised as emails, quotes from self-help books, in a pleading tone, in a “tough-love” tone, sweetly, seriously..many many times. He hated that, he lashed out at me many times and abhored the fact that I apparently thought he “was sick”. I just wanted to HELP, why oh why.
I almost cried reading this post. I am guilty of this disrespect to myself and although I realised I have the ‘helper-syndrome’ around a year ago, your portrayal of it here is spot on..It is an egoistic, LAZY way of dealing with a dysfunctional relationship. LEAVE, don’t try to FIX. When you find yourself trying to be a therapist, leave. What you get caught up in the words that may be true and reveal a lot and throwing them at him with no response, leave. Save that energy for yourself and your next, much more deserving, true partner.
@ siren Your last two paragraphs are what I did as well. I got the backlash too and went through a lot of pain before I finally let my last word be the action of leaving. It wasn’t easy but I’m in a healthier place now and have the harmony in my life and relationships that I was seeking all along. Keep going. You’re moving in the right direction. 🙂
It all comes down to wanting what you can’t have! These clever Peter Pans flirt with you about the future but since they never grow up emotionally….it never happens. I just did the rant with a man with whom I have a had the off and off long distance thing. (He thought I was being cranky!) He wants me when I push him away and then when he is with me…he is clamoring for the door. The most important word for a single woman can be NEXT!!!! I guess I am being immature to think that my love can change this little boy man….it can’t. NEXT!!!!!!
PS. It is time for me to put on the big girl pants and stop playing with boys who are so immature.
My Daddy used to say that when you are pointing your finger at someone….there are three pointing back at you!
I need to assume some adult responsibilty and move on from this immature game of emotional chicken. As always….NO CONTACT is the rehab for this addiction.
Yes I did “Tell Them All About Themselves ” in a 7 page word vomit directly written with examples of behaviour etc. – on the way out the door. I even congratulated him on fulfilling his self prophecy. We had one conversation after that in which he apologized for being a dissappointment and not paying attention – whatever – his response was not important. It did not change things – no fallback here – I didn’t do to seek validation from him – I wanted to speak my mind and gets things out that had been lurking under the surface for so long. It was more for me than him. If anything it validated for me the reasons he was NOT a suitable choice for me. It didn’t matter that he said “I just wasn’t the one” – he wasn’t “the one” and I needed to say that – finally – and accept my own truth. I don’t regret it but I might have if I didn’t do it. I did do it calmly without hysterics and keep my dignity in tact. It wasn’t to “get the last word in” – it was to speak my truth – however it takes it is up to him. Not my problem anymore. Whats done is done.
@Movedup
At different times my “vomit” was for different reasons. At first it was for him to “stop”, never changed a thing. Probably made it worse.
Then it was to hurt him – ouch!! Burned me instead.
Eventually it was to speak my truth. Some things I regret, somethings I don’t.
My biggest regret tho is letting him see in my “actions” how I was going to continue to let him treat me this way on quite a few occassions.
I unfortunately grew up thinking if you love eachother you have to “fight” to make it work – WRONG!
By giving him an earful I only solidified , in his mind, his view of me as being immature. Perhaps partially true….”immature” and “a woman scorned” can be pretty damn near the same thing. He had once belittled me by saying “you’d be great if I was 20” …completely insulting and not really true at all, if taken in a negative fashion. But later on chewing him out only showed immature behaviour. Not that being hurt or angry is immature, but being able to have the self control to simply walk away without needing validation or to vent is far more emotionally mature behaviour.
I wish i could go back in time and do just that. But live and learn!
(ps. he couldn’t care less ANYWAY!)
Being completely honest with myself after reading the article…it’s really difficult,it feels downright impossible to not want to ‘vent’. Yet…Natalie is right,with the true narcissist all you do is repeat a list of issues he’s heard many times before. It may be a list he’s prepared to listen to again and again…as long as some fringe benefits come before the woman concerned wises up. He can abuse the situation till then…
I believe that if you do vent feelings to EUM’s,they actually shut their hearing down,go into self protective ‘hibernate’ mode….they are already planning your speedy exit and the replacement of another fall girl to be emotionally unavailable with on their terms.
So, tough as this has been for me, I hear the message of this article loud and crystal clear and it is…move on…what’s the best use of my time right now?
It’s not wasting voice,thoughts,txts,e-mails,postage,hopes, my loving presence on someone who actually didn’t exist for me in any real sense.
I used to try to explain to the EUM his own poor relationship behaviour; I used to sit for hours sending him long, carefully crafted emails that I hoped would get through to him; make him “understand” and understand how he was making me feel.
Not done that for about 4 years! Waste of time. He never, ever, ever had anything to say – it was like talking to a brick wall – (actually, not “like” – was). Most often he wouldn’t even acknowledge that I’d spoken these “words of wisdom” for the benefit of his enlightenment! So…I would email to ask him to confirm that he had got my email!! And he would confirm, maybe, on a good day, with the briefest and lamest of non-commital platitudes, and that was the end of that!
I would be literally thrown speechless at his lack of response and interest – which would now, years later, be taken as a given; I would expect it. I stopped giving him the diagnosis and prognosis and the ‘how you make me feel’ talk – he had no more interest in it than fly in the air. And as Natalie says, the habitual EU has danced this dance many times before; we can’t tell them anything they do not already know – they are perfectly familiar with their own pattern and way of doing things – and they don’t want or need to hear it. Oddly, when they have their poor behaviour towards us pointed out to them it somehow morphs into an insult to them! How the hell does that work!
I have thought of pointing out to my EUM that he is EU, but he already knows!! It is me, as Nat says, who needs to learn and accept the reality of this and do something about it for me – not him.
This part is poignant for me:
“Teaching someone who mistreats you that there’s consequences sends a far bigger message than putting them on blast. Let the last word be your actions.”
Someone will need to tape up my gob! But I am getting better at understanding this. When I went on NC now months ago (but have had a recent blip!!) I did let my actions speak for me and it felt good to do that.
@NML on a piece of advice you gave me today you said “put your ego aside…” if you could expand on what you mean by that I would be v grateful… is it that I/we break NC because I have too much focus on getting validation from him, or I/we are looking for an ego stroke from him.. or I/we just have a bruised ego and need to ignore that and not pander to it so as to be more successful at NC? Was interested in what you meant.
Thanks.
@Fearless:
I identify wholesale with everything you said, I spent much energy trying to explain to my AC why he was insensitive, trying to point in the most diplomatic, gentle way possible, out why his behaviour hurt me (after enduring a lot of crap and not being able to stay silent anymore).
I never got a full, mature response, at best, it was a “I will try to be better, I promise!”, via SMS.
It was extremely difficult for me to accept this non response as I could not believe that all my sincere, passionate efforts in trying to reach out to him, could actually be futile. I had too much misguided belief in my ability to shape things, that there must simple be a way, there is a possible human intervention, I am not just using the right strategy.
On hindsight, I guess I had a need to be right, I could not accept that I was a ‘failure’, though this had nothing to do with me per se- he had no empathy, no antennae to receive what I wanted to offer, i believed what I was offering was good for him, good for his emotional well being, I did not put myself first.
As for sharing insights about their problems, and “to list their flaws and crimes”, it is very very tempting to do so and I do wish, that my man child might have his ears and heart open for this sort of self-critique. But at the end of the day, he seems interested in preserving his stability and man child ways, change is too radical and too disruptive. There is nothing I can do but to let him be and to let him go.
I’ve spoken to many friends about this and they all condemn the AC and tell me that he’s no good and I am better off without him, that it was “his loss”. One friend, had a dissenting opinion. She said I was placing unreasonable demands on the AC and that my pain had nothing to do with him, but was entirely self-generated, due to my ability to see the situation for what it was- that he wanted a superficial affair, he wanted me as a playmate, while I was looking for a soulmate. She also said that I was ironically being narcissistic and child like in my insistence, in trying to assert my needs and demands to be heard/understood, given that I had enough evidence that he was unwilling and incapable of engaging me on the level I wanted. And that by trying to enact my “rescue fantasies” and quasi-caring/loving the man child, I was actually manifesting my own needs, for him to give me attention and approval. She said I was being judgmental when it came to trying to get him to wake up and pay attention to his bad behaviour, when he did not want to embark on that journey of self-recognition, self-analysis. And that most reasonable people would leave soon after being disrespected, but I stayed on, poured my heart, soul into him, cried buckets and became devastated. By preoccupying myself with his problems, my own issues became eclipsed by his.
This was new for me. I didn’t like the sound of it. It is difficult to actually distill everything to one single explanation and I prefer to see it as a confluence of different forces at work. But admittedly, it does help to examine my own reactions/responses independent of his actions, and it has helped me to move forward a little. I tried to enforce NC 3 months ago and have my lapses, I am still in contact with my man child through SMS (I know, it’s not ideal. Because he senses I am pulling away, he is acting more “affectionate”, i.e writing more than a one line SMS), but I’ve experienced some internal shifts.. I find myself not being so desperate and dependent on him for answers, because I feel that I don’t need them from him (truth might be elusive to him), I can be clarified and certain of my own truths independent of him. Yes, there are days where I go back to my wishful longing, I wish he could talk to me and open his heart to me. But I am clear that he cannot give me what I want, and he is not prepared to receive what I want to give, which makes me unhappy, so I am slowly letting go. I want to sustain this equilibrium and find the relationship that I deserve with someone else.
All the best, Fearless. Stay on your path and your commitment to yourself. And you did very well, by not going to London!
@Jade Sesame
Thank you very much for your so well expressed post and your good wishes. I read your comment three times, it speaks so well to me. I am only now beginning to realise that the journey I need to make through this is more complex than I first imagined when I discovered such a thing as EU a few months ago – of course, a soon as I read about EU I instantly recognised my ‘problem’. I had known his problems instinctively for a long time, but had no name or conscious language for it.
Your dissenting friend’s case is an interesting one, and I do not disagree. In fact when my friends have berated my EUM for his bad behaviour, I have sometimes responded with a similar though less well expressed case for his defense, or at least for my own culpability, along the same lines as your friend, i.e. that he ‘is what he is’; he does not pretend to be something different, something better; that he does not have my arm up my back; that I am responsible for accepting his behaviour and even encouraging him to continue to see me; that he would, and does, leave me alone if that is what I asked of him; that it is me who persists in demanding something more from him; he demands nothing of me (he may like what he would like, but he never,ever demands anything at all); he claims no rights; he has no expectations of me; he can’t believe, I’m sure, that I still give him the time of day; and why is it so bad to accept him for what and who he is, and all the rest…
… I waver between this view and the ‘he’s a complete using, abusing bleep bleep bleep…’
In all the years I have known him I have been unable to settle on one single view of him, of the situation and of my feelings about both. It’s like coin flipping: heads – no, tails – no, heads – no, tails… when I have tried to stay away from him and then go back, it’s like I just want some bloody stability for a while, so I stick with him, on his terms… then the coin flips again and I’m back to disgruntled, frustration and wanting and demanding more… I don’t get it.. I stay away… then the coin in my head flips again.. and on and on it goes…it’s like I don’t know what to feel anymore for any real length of time, and I am exhausted with the flipping and flapping and the Who am I? Where am I? What feeling am I on today…are we on heads or tails?!?
I do see though, that whatever choice I make, I need to choose… I can’t live with my head and my life flipping around like this… and I know what the choice has to be; I have come to that a few months ago, just as you have.
I don’t hate him..I may even love him (when I’m on heads!:) I may want him to just bloody well be there, be with me, be for me… but it’s all academic. I too am experiencing a new, un-named, but discernable internal shift.. I don’t know exactly what it is and I know I am still wobbly with my resolve, but I also know the engine is now firing and that take off is not far away – it’s coming from a different place – a real place. This time what I am coming to see is that I need to ignore the flipping (the heads or tails), in that which one is up at any given time is not the point…
…I appreciate much more now that all the who is to blame and who did what and to whom and why he did and why I did, are all questions that are too big for me, and the answers don’t matter – the bottom line is that whatever it is, it is not working for me, and it never has worked. I am not happy with the situation – I never was; I never will be; and there is no-one on God’s good earth who can fix this – least of all me, even less him. I am not to care about “what I feel or think or know or don’t know” – I am just to do the right thing for me. That is all. Don’t think. Just do.
That is all there is left: to accept it and deal with it and mourn my loss.
I hoped I could skip all the mourning part :), but I see now that is not possible – I have been trying to delay the inevitable for as long as possible. If he had died I would be weeping my heart out. So, I guess it’s crying time now. The sooner I get crying the sooner I’ll stop.
Thanks everyone for your support today. F (aka ‘hopeless but trying’)
I understand completely where you’re coming from regarding the coin flipping in your head. I have been living like that for over 2 years now since my ex left after a ten year relationship. I have tried NC and got as far as 2 weeks and then he emailed me and stupidly I thought he had regrets but no just wanted to tell how everything was my fault. I would like to be able to cut him out of my life completely as I don’t need him in anyway practical way, I’m financially independent etc. What is it that keeps us ‘tied’ emotionally to these men, My family have been very supportive over the years but I’m sure they are fed up with the situation now. My daughter said recently ‘I wish he would fall over the face of the earth’ if only! I know that it is me who is keeping the situation going now as it’s usually me who makes contact but he never ignores me and always comes back to me usually the same day. I’m in Dubai at the moment visiting my son and having a lovely time. you would think that that would dispel all thoughts of him from my mind but unfortunately not. I’m going to have another go at no contact when I get home. Good for you not going to London and good luck with your move forward.
Hi Fearless,
I really hope you’re feeling better today.
Like you, I also experienced the instability of not really being able to arrive at a proper assessment of my man-child. I was swinging like a pendulum between “he can’t help it” (hence I should embrace him and continue to offer my love and support), vs. “he’s a self-absorbed narcissist” (I detest the situation, I want to pull away). I think I was not being honest with myself or believing that I was entitled to more, the truth was that my needs were not being met and I was finding all kinds of excuses to justify me staying in the situation because I wanted to delay the inevitable- it was as if having a shell of a relationship, getting his silly, inane SMSes was better than nothing at all, having a one-sided conversation with me talking to a blank wall, was better than me being completely alone, never hearing from him ever again was a terrifying thought. I could not bear the idea of him being absent from my life, I needed him to be present, but it was a pseudo-presence that left me feeling emotionally, intellectually and mentally sterile.
Choose yourself, trust yourself, love yourself and listen to your own needs, your inner voice. When you find yourself going into coin-flipping note, think about what has been the consistent thread (his unavailability) and confront what is, as you have honestly acknowledged that you are not happy with the situation. I believe that for some of us, it takes us crashing to rock bottom, enduring multiple disappointments, the dehumanizing of repeated mis-recognition, before we actually bail out. Why is this so, why do we have to repeatedly run ourselves down, when there are other women who would have called it quits eons ago?
You know.. it seems that your man has no reason to quit the situation (ditto with mine, he’s completely passive, can’t be bothered, uncommunicative, incapable of mature dialogue), and so we’re the ones who have to be decisive about it. Yes, I was mourning his loss, nights of bitter tears, drowning in my ocean of rejection, rejection, feeling unwanted, abandoned, that my love wasn’t good enough for him no matter what I did, feeling that this loss was akin to a kind of death. But I’m trying to re-structure my perspective- that I am the one doing the rejecting, this gives me agency- I am not the one being rejected by him. Simply, I am not choosing to be with him because I matter, I love myself, I deserve goodness, I have plenty of love to give to someone else (and if I could offer this to my man child, it indicates that I have it in me to give.. this is a fact to be celebrated, and so it can happen again with someone else), I want someone who demands this of me and can challenge and love me in return, no one in the world can downplay or negate my emotional needs.
Don’t despair, don’t backtrack on your path, do all that you can to support your growth and your internal shifts- these are powerful realizations! Personally, I have tried to de-programme myself from thinking about the man-child (if I do, it’s with a kind of wistfulness and sadness, that it was never meant to be, the anguish, yearning and endless why why why-s diminish each day, yes I wish he could open up his heart to me but maybe he might never experience that in this life), I wish him well and am grateful to him for giving me insights about myself, I try to immerse myself in activities that are uplifting, I read baggage reclaim to reinforce why I am choosing myself, and surround myself with meaningful friends.. and then, it is so apparent that life is great and in fact, splendid without the EUM, when these shifts happen, after our emotional detox, I think we will see that we actually don’t need or want our EUMs at all because of all the negativity and toxicity they represent.
i love this reply. eums are like a bad drug.
fearless,
I did it too, to make him understand.
Because me and my eum were friends I was doing in out of the kindness of my heart. So I thought but I agree I wouldn’t have like it if he did it to me and actually my ex’s did and I hated it too. Now I feel like apologizing to him and I feel guilty.
MyEum’s then booty call now girlfriend use to diagnose him with autism to explain his lack of affection. He would tell me that us diagnosing him was a good thing we are just looking out for him.
He would tell me that she would mentioned that he never asks how her day is going and so he now wants to ask me how mine is.
If I said he puts conditions on people he would tell her when she felt he was giving her restrictions what I said.
So a part of me thinks us telling him about his behaviours helped a little bit.
The other day I said the reason I left and put distance between us because I wanted to end things for good and have no contact. I said this because he said that he gives me space because he knows that I want him in small doses.
I found that by telling him things I have gotten things I wanted from him but not the whole ball of wax.
I guess what it comes down to is we had our good intentions for why we were doing it but now seeing it in this light I can see how it is cruel. I have pretty much stopped since finding Nat’s blog except for the odd comment as to why I don’t want him much in my life.
I have never wanted him to go away completely just for the most part.
I see why you put the effort in with your guy though especially for how long it has gone on. I see how you have learn so much from it all. Don’t be too hard on yourself I can see you were really speaking from the heart.
I did this to my EUM and I usually did it in the context when I would end things with him.
I would leave him a voice mail, a text, an email or on the phone and finally in person and that last one stuck, I left.
Each and every time he would phone me to discuss us not ending things. During that time I would tell him he was this or that and that is why I was leaving him.
My question for you Nat is, next time would I just say it is not working for me goodbye and not give them any explanations? I am curious because he was expecting answers from me even though I thought I was making it clear. Or I guess you would suggest I just tell the person the action they did that bothered me without giving the diagnosis?
I also gave my diagnosis’s outside of breaking things off from him and he would use my diagnosis as reasons for why I should stay with him because he would say see I am F$*k up and I need you as a friend. So he always took my analyzations of him as my eventual exiting.
Once when I told him he has narcissistic tendencies he told me he knows that is why he needs friends like me who get him. He would turn everything around so that i never leave him and it worked. I still haven’t left him for good. I don’t think he really is that bad I think I over exaggerated it because I wanted what I wanted from him and I couldn’t because he is emotionally unavailable. Not making excuses for him, I know he is completely unhealthy for me and I need to concentrate on myself getting healthy enough to attract a better mate. I feel I am getting close because I did physically leave him because of my love for myself.
I think you have to express your concerns and complaints early and honestly. If you don’t see change it’s time to go. I can’t see having a monumental tell off session unless you’re already heading out the door in which case who gives a rat’s ass if he agrees or thinks your a nutter or whatever. You’re taking your parting shot and if the former child in your life thinks it makes you childish SO WHAT? He’s already rendered himself irrelevant. My EUM asked a whole bunch of why are you doing this and that, at the end. I told him and he can think I’m crazy or making things up but that doesn’t stop respecting myself enough to speak the truth on my behalf from feeling oh-so-good. Why would I ever hold back and pretend his behavior has been anything less than outrageous because of what he might think?
I’ve actually been on the receiving end of having my flaws listed in great detail. One of my exes liked to psychoanalyse me. He’d had a lot of therapy and felt the need to tell me what my problems were.
I didn;t give a crap. I just thought he was nutty and obsessed with me. I also thought he was madly in love with me to give me so much consideration. At the very most, I found it funny.
And that, ladies, is exactly what your guy is thinking when you’re telling him about himself.
I was on the receiving end of such a rant decades ago…and really, all I could think of was “You’re an asshole! If I’m that bad, why were you with me?”
I dated this boy maybe three or four times when I was in college — and to my shock, got a long, nasty rant from him after a couple of weeks. I was cold and uncaring, his friends and family thought I was ugly, I didn’t pay enough attention to my appearance — I didn’t wear much makeup, had wavy hair that I didn’t straighten, and didn’t use nail polish. How unforgivable of me.
We weren’t in a relationship, we weren’t exclusive, we just went out dancing at clubs a couple of times. I really couldn’t understand the intensity of his anger — or why he didn’t just quit calling if he didn’t like my looks or personality. WHY would a guy date a girl that he didn’t find attractive? (And no, he wasn’t seeing me for money or connections; I didn’t have either!)
I remember feeling uncomfortable on the few dates we had — it felt like he was “fast forwarding” the relationship. Did he feel that I was not as attractive or personable a girl as he felt entitled to — so he expected that I’d fall all over myself trying to please him?
It was like I’d flunked a test that I didn’t even know that I was taking. He felt entitled to something that I wasn’t giving him. I don’t think that it was even sex. I think it was that I wouldn’t make him the center of my world. I think he felt entitled to be the center of my world, even despite knowing each other for such a short time. (And if I had made him the center of my world, he’d probably have dumped me for being too clingy.)
Yet, years later, I felt the need to make a similar speech to my soon to be ex. Now, this one and I had been together longer and discussed marriage. He’d blown hot and cold, which I didn’t do with the first guy. Still, no matter what he said — his actions told me that he wasn’t committed to me and didn’t value me. Why did I feel the need to tell him anything? Why didn’t I just leave? The irony? He was not that attractive, and I had a much better job than he did. So was I doing what that college boy did — dating “down,” expecting my date to be grateful to have someone like me — and then being outraged when it didn’t happen?
I also think that my rant at the second guy was fueled by months of anger. I had tolerated far too much bad behavior. I didn’t set boundaries with him, or object to his behavior, out of fear that he would leave me. Sure, I should have realized that a person who really loves you is not going to leave simply because you ask to be treated with consideration and respect. But I didn’t see it then. I accepted inconsiderate, manipulative and disrespectful behavior again and again — and I grew angrier and angrier, much as I tried to repress it. By the time he told me that he wanted to end the relationship — I was like a barrel of dynomite ready to explode — and the break-up was like tossing a lit match into that barrel! If I’d set boundaries earlier in the relationship — we might have broken up sooner (and that would have been a good thing) and I would have been less angry. I wouldn’t have had time to accumulate six hundred pages of grievances to lecture him about.
Great post, probably the most hard-hitting on the women’s responsibilities yet. Imagine someone you dont respect is standing in front of you psychoanalysing you and giving you the low-down on your behaviour. You’d ignore the majority of their comments because you didnt respect them as a person so what they think wouldnt really hit home, well that’s what they do to us. They dont respect us so why would they bother to listen to our observations of their behaviour. Nat is right, it is a waste of breath and makes us hide behind their shabby behaviour. We shouldnt have stayed with them, rationalising their shoddy behavour, and putting up with it.
I’m going to try to learn this post off by heart and brainwash myself out of this crummy behaviour of my own.
Thank you again Natalie, I just dont know how you manage to keep coming up with these great articles you never cease to amaze me with your insighfulness.
I feel that Natalie must have a recorder hidden in my brain or my apartment is bugged because every article that comes out pertains exactly to what I most strongly went through the same day or just the day before.
I’ve come to a few realizations but the most important ones are these:
1) I’m no longer afraid to admit and/or identify that I have been emotionally abused, mistreated and manipulated by my ex. I thought that admitting this to myself would mean that I was neglecting responsibility on my end of the relationship and simply just make me a victim and push it all off on him. I truthfully believed that because he didn’t cheat on me and took me to see his parents once in awhile he was a great guy so I had no right to seriously acknowledge the truly vile points on his end, even after the relationship was over. It’s an odd thing to feel but that’s how it is. “oh, he said things that he intentionally knew would hurt me? he abandoned me when I was in the hospital and dismissed it as something false? that’s ok, he’s not that bad – he’s looked me in the eye and told me he loves me. He’s taken me to meet his mom and texted me a few times that he ‘missed me’ when he was out – he’s just fine.” Jesus girl! WAKE UP! My open mind is going to be the death of me, where sometimes I feel like I’m just trying to realize that everyone has a different perspective, other times I look more closely and just realize I’m making up some lame ass excuses for his sorry butt.
2) I need to come to terms with my obsession to get him to *feel what I’m feeling. To get him to *understand my point of view. Because it’s damaging and humiliating to me and if anything, it’s just somehow making him feel even more right with himself. I’ve heard him repeat things back to me that he thinks I have said and he leaves out huge, HUGE, points that I don’t know how one could even miss. I used to think this shortcoming with communication was just a “a guy thing” but I see now that it’s his distortion of the truth to make a lot of this easier on him.
When I do try to get him to understand me, even in the kind and soft approach (doesn’t work either) it just falls into a pit of blame and him hurling truly vile, intentionally hurtful things my way and it always ends up with the line “you made me do this to you.”
The manipulation involved is truly disturbing. I’m no angel. I understand that I’ve let my need to be heard and understood cloud my judgment and no doubt it has pushed him but I need to stop making excuses for his neglectful and downright horrid behavior and start figuring out exactly why I care what such an emotionally stunted, immature jackass thinks about me and his regret (or lack of) when it comes to treating me the way he did. It doesn’t matter to him, it has to stop mattering to me.
Hi Holy Digit,
Did I ever relate to what you were saying.
I often mentioned on here or say to my friends that my FWB was somewhat decent because he doesn’t verbally or physically abuse me. I sometimes mention the emotional or leave it out because everyone on here has received the emotional abuse so I know it is needless to say really.
However your right we need to acknowledge it and your right without blaming them and still holding ourselves accountable.
Yes these people emotionally abused us by being wishy washy, by doing things on their terms only. I use to say to my EUM that he puts conditions on me, and he agreed he started using the term. In the end when I said this is it we are done and I meant it this time. He said he would go on a trip I was planning but he would want his conditions. They were during his days off which is during the week. I said actually I am going on the weekend on my days off and no thanks. They also aren’t upfront with many of their actions and mess with people’s head.
At the same time we are accountable because we don’t listen to the red flags, or our gut. We let them convince us because we don’t want to be right we want to be convince that they want us they are just having a temporary set back and they will be back to their beautiful selves like in the beginning eventually. Wrong! Oh well. Yeah the one time we don’t want to be right, when it comes to how we are learning they feel about us.
I somehow thought if I had to pick a form of abuse I will pick emotional abuse because that one is hard to dicipher if it is us being unreasonable or are they manipulating us. My friends always describe my EUM as oblivious. They all tell me he cared, cares now and even he loved me and I love him.
I say if love is what he gave me then I don’t want it because it sure isn’t stable. I want love to come with a better foundation.
I also think the love word gets thrown around too much. I will believe love when the words and actions match each other.
I too have an insessant need to be heard and understood. I still want to explain things to him. I don’t because I read Nat’s old blog woman who think and talk too much syndrome.
I worry about myself that I will want to overexplain myself in a healthy relationship and he will grow tired of it. I am trying to work this issue out now. I have to learn when to fold um.
“Don’t spend your energies trying to play Diagnosis Assclown” aka engaging in “The act of Telling Them All About Themselves” – brlliant. you have nailed it again sister! wow – wouldn’t wanna be the Assclown that let you down.. and Im so glad i get to read your posts – two weeks single again and feeling stronger every day with how i’d know when to love and when to bolt (without needing to say a thing – which as you say is uber powerful and SAYS IT ALL!) x merci mucho bella xxx CB
Most men who aren’t full blown narcissists but do have selfish and narcissistic tendencies are well aware of their flaws. What I wished I’d realized much sooner is that they aren’t looking for someone to change for…they’re looking for someone who will put up with them the way they are.
I’ve had a few men who did some absolutely ridiculous things to me come back and apologize down the road. The thing I had a difficult time with is that they weren’t the scum of the earth-they simply took advantage of the kind of person I was at the time, and hadn’t bothered to get their heads out of their self-involved asses long enough to realize that I was a great person and form an emotional attachment to me that would have possibly prevented them from treating me like such crap.
The problem with these apologies? They were mostly self-serving (easing their own conscience), mostly all about them, waaaaay too late, and mostly just led me down a path of nostalgia and coulda-shoulda-woulda that took away from the path to happiness I was trying to get on.
At one point I did try to reforge a romantic relationship with someone after 2 1/2 years of yo-yoing. I had called him out multiple times. and at one point his response to me was “I know I’m a weak person who does shady shit. Lose my number.” But the problem is that we both knew what he was like at his worst, and the ability to truly trust him had gone out the window long ago. He knew he could never live up to the image of the person I’d set him up to be in the beginning. Any chance at a true reconciliation did not last long, because I had lost all patience and couldn’t get past my bitterness, and he didn’t stand a chance to make up for his terrible treatment of me in the past, and honestly had no idea how to figure out a way to overcome my opinion of him. And I can’t blame him. Who would want to live in that shadow for any significant amount of time?
Before I found this post, the last guy I dated before meeting my current boyfriend sent me a text message at 12:30 in the morning asking what I was doing. I responded that I didn’t trust men who contacted me past midnight. He laughed it off and I thought that meant he might actually want to do something at a respectable hour. It never happened, and I soon found out that while he was texting me, this 30 year old man was dating an 18 year old. My only response to him “Thank you for reaffirming my original opinion about men who text after midnight.” He wasn’t stupid. He got the hint. And I wasn’t stupid, either. I knew any personal attack on him would be used against me to justify to our mutual friends why I wasn’t fit to be his girlfriend. I still see him occasionally, and he won’t even look me in the eye. I made my point, and I didn’t have to stoop to any level. He’s as happy as he’s going to allow himself to be, and I’m definitely happy I let it go at that.
And I meant to say at the beginning of my last paragraph, “Before I found this blog” not “post.” 🙂
Hi Actually Happy
Most men who aren’t full blown narcissists but do have selfish and narcissistic tendencies are well aware of their flaws. What I wished I’d realized much sooner is that they aren’t looking for someone to change for…they’re looking for someone who will put up with them the way they are.
How true your above statement is. My last EUM said he doesn’t love his new girlfriend he is with her because she puts up with him.
He also mentioned the other day she and I put up with him. That is exactly what he was looking for, you put it so simple.
When I tried to end things between us and I would list his faults as to why I am leaving him he would say, soon like the rest you will just learn to accept my ways. I said no I won’t I will eventually leave because I don’t like your ways. I gave it one more chance and I left for good after that. I told him I simply couldn’t accept your ways.
I do have a question, though. There was this guy who disappeared on me and then about 5 years later reappeared. He disappeared again and this is what I had written to him (or something along these lines) via Facebook: “You disappeared on me once and I didn’t say anything. You disappeared on me again and I’m just letting you know that I don’t deserve this behavior”. I de-friended him afterwards (this was when I had Facebook. I don’t have it anymore).
Is that considered listing flaws? Wasn’t it best that I walked away anyway? Just curious as to what people think.
LP,
I don’t see a problem with what you describe – I don’t see any reason for you not to say what you did. It was not, for me anyway, the same as “listing his faults”. You told him that you found his behaviour unacceptable, and did so in a controlled, to the point and civil manner and then you closed the door on him… good for you.
LP,
I know, it’s a fine line, and how to tell the difference? Just my opinion. I don’t think you listed his flaws. In fact, you didn’t make a list at all, just told him a behavior was unacceptable, and then promptly followed it up with action that backed your words. I call that setting a boundary. Good for you!
Thank you for your responses!
Thank you for this post…you caught me about 24 hours BEFORE I was preparing to unleash all I “knew” about him and what “his” problems are.
Every line of this post speaks to me and holds the mirror up to my face, right where it should have been all along. You’ve effectively and completely talked me out of saying one word to him about what “he’s done” to me. Instead, I’ve been talking to myself all night about what “I’ve” done to me.
Thank you. Let the healing begin.
Good for you. That’s what I forgot to mention in my comment – look in the mirror and begin the self-healing process. Glad that you’ve realized this, and best wishes to you.
I’ve often found it unfair that many times in my life, whether in romantic relationships or friendships, I wasn’t able to have closure by “talking about it” ” telling them about themselves”. Even now, not getting closure made me angry at times. But upon reading this post, I’ve realized something:
The fact that I’m alright (not by my flimsy standards, but by positive people’s standards), moving onward, and making progress, is closure in and of itself. Those people rarely cross my mind, and I’m sure that nothing has changed about their selves or their lives.
To hell with assclowns/assholes; no matter what you say, they will keep being assclowns/assholes for the rest of their lives (more than likely). Assclowns/Assholes aren’t worth the energy of getting “closure”. Get closure on your own – ALONE and/or with a therapist.
Natalie- Thank you so much for writing this. I read it nodding, laughing out loud and seeing myself (literally) in every word. I am the reader who called her ex an assclown and is now in mediation (a very useful process for me and I am glad I am going). I cop to all of it. I wanted to tell him what was wrong with him. I wanted him to validate me. But mostly, I wanted to avoid the pain that came from truly accepting he just didn’t want to be with me when I had so hoped he would. The rest was just smoke and mirrors. I wanted him to see my pain and care. I now know (at the embarrassing age of 45) that you can’t make someone care about you, that caring about someone doesn’t mean they owe you. I also needed to ask why I wanted him so much, when he made me feel so bad much of the time. I was begging for his attention and approval, instead of loving and respecting myself enough to say he couldn’t have mine.
When you go to mediation, you have to do a series of exercises to help you get down to what you are really upset about. After completing one last night, I woke up this morning having realized so much of what you talk about in this post. I am entitled to my feelings about what happened, even if he doesn’t care about them. My idea of what happened in the relationship is as real and “right” as his and I don’t need others to validate it back to me. I can just trust my gut (which I didn’t do while it was happening). I don’t need or want an apology, explanation or rehash of the events. I just want to find a way to work with this person in a civil, mature manner. His problems are exactly that – his and I no longer care what they are or whether he ever fixes them. I care about my problems – why I was attracted to this, why I kept going despite his growing lack of interest, why I needed him to validate me and why I was allowing him to control me.
Epiphany relationships are killers, but they are so necessary. I needed this, as humbling and horrible as it has all been. I realize that I alone decide how my coworkers see me. It doesn’t matter what he says about me – it’s how I interact with people that tells them whether to trust me. It’s what I think about me that matters – he can say anything he likes, it doesn’t make it so. And, by the same token, it doesn’t make my interpretations, diagnoses or impressions of him right either.
We both needed to grow up and unfortunately it happened in a very public, very embarrassing way. Live and learn. The good news is that I really have learned here and I intend to keep learning. Hopefully next time, I will accept my lessons sooner and in a less destructive way. Bless you, Natalie. You have helped me more than I can ever say or ever repay.
I didn’t need to tell the ex EUM about himself – he knew it all already! He was always listing his shortcomings, telling me what a bastard he was and at the same time putting me on a pedestal, telling me how wonderful I was and that I could do so much better. He even told me how wonderful I was when he ended things with me. It was a way of covering his own back because, as NML said, he’d danced this dance many times before and didn’t want anyone to be getting any ‘ideas’ while we were seeing each other. My fault for staying and thinking i knew better! Should have believed him the first time – i’ll not be making that mistake again.
It’s also true what NML says about guys who tell you that you’re out of their ‘league’ – eventually they will cheat with someone more ‘in their league’ – and lo and behold, when he dumped me he told me he’d been dreaming about his previous FBG before me, who we bumped into on a night out and he said I was way more attractive, intelligent, etc.
I didn’t feel the need for a debrief – he was constantly debriefing himself! He just wasn’t doing anything with the information. The previous FBG sent him a long, ranty email listing all her hurts and he told me it had made him think ‘yeah, I’m and asshole’, but he still went about his business as usual – he still doesn’t know what he wants. Arse-elbow differentiation still has not been achieved!
At first I was analyzing him morning, noon and night, but thanks to this site, I started analysing myself too – something I had never done before. I still have baggage, I still attract emotional morons, but now I can recognise them and choose to preserve my dignity and self-worth.
Let’s not waste our time on these idiots, eh? Let’s focus on people who are actually worth our time!
“I didn’t feel the need for a debrief – he was constantly debriefing himself! He just wasn’t doing anything with the information.”
This is was my AC. He dumped me again after a wonderful weekend..OH but yeah I shhould be use to it, because after every wonderful time together..there is the breakup and there is stupid me letting him back in. I disgust myself!
Well this time was different. And any advice will be greatly appreciated.
This time around for a wirlwind of 3 weeks where he actually came to my apt and slept over…the first time in going out for 2 yrs!! Well, in the last 2 weeks he all of a sudden bought me a few things (he has never bought me anything but dinner in 2yrs!) like car mats and paid for a ring I had repaired. Also he paid for my car repair before I got there to pay for it. Granted the total was only $300.00 but even still ..it was weird that he did it. He said consider me Santa. I said no that I was going to pay him back and he said no, I just want to make things easier for you. Then within the next sentence he broke up with me again. Telling me the same old stuff..Im having anxiety, I dont want a relationship, I think I was ment to be alone…If I change Ill call you…..lol right! well because this came off a great weekend I did fall apart. But never begged.
I had the feeling that maybe he had met someone else and thats why he paid for my car.
I already knew that I was going to give him that money back but how? So after reading this article, I decided that I would just put the cash in an envelope and slip it under his door. I didnt want to hand it to him, because I have started NC for good this time. But here is the thing. I didnt leave a note. Just the amounts and what fors. I started off with saying stupid things in a letter to him like. Giftsgiven with love +love, gives given with guilt + pay off. And here you go Santa never made me cry. But I chose nothing in the end, just the money. Do you think that he will get more information from the no letter or should i have said something in the letter?
This man is 56..its sickening. He also doesnt need me telling him how bad he is, he tells me all the time how he is sorry for torturing me and how mean he is to me. He tells me that he has never been this way with anyone else, since his wives left him for other men he has developed this attitude.
I have been able to maintain NC for a few weeks at a time but I NEVER CALL HIM ! he is the one that makes contact, and even come to my house to spy on me.
I so burnt out of the this off and on again thing..its numbing..then the next day painful…
it suppose to go.
gifts given with love=love
gifts given with guilt =payoff
After doing the whole angry-‘you’re passive aggressive/hurt me, I’m not tolerating this behaviour’ and promptly staying involved therefore going back on what I said before. I took the decision that I would not further add my voice to the long list of harpie women whom I’m sure have told him what a shit he is previously. I’m refusing to have myself cast in that light. He has been in touch and I’ve been civil. I have no intention wasting my time wondering why he called, what’s in his head is his business. I can only account for myself. For me there is no going back – only forward.
I often don’t understand why people want to remain in the company of a narcissist. They are so full of themselves, you can’t get a word or thought in edgewise, which to me is a huge turnoff. But I digress.
We often mistakenly put a lot of stock in people who aren’t worth their weight in anything but BS. We have to distinguish very closely who we decide to invest in. Unfortunately most of us have made a few bad investments and some unwisely and foolishly continue making them.
Wow, Natalie. I really needed to read this today. I still have occasional contact with the ex-AC for business reasons. But lately, he’s been prolonging the conversation a bit, and telling me about his personal life somewhat. He likes to use stories about other people to criticize someone else’s bad behavior, and I find myself biting my tongue, so that I won’t point out that he did that exact same bad behavior to me!!!
Because you are right. What difference would it make, other than to show him it still bothers me, which would probably just stroke his ego!
This article reminds me that moving forward is not about him apologizing or validating me. It’s not even about labeling him as AC or EUM. It’s about me looking at why I was afraid to set boundaries, why I put up with his disrespect. Why did I stay when I was unhappy?
I so much appreciate your site. Thanks!
I came to this blog 3 mos ago pretty heart broken and very confused from my relationship with a married Narc. After this man “busted in the door” to my life and convinced me that he was divorced and inlove with me, he then dissapeared without word. I did ALOT of homework during this 3 months and I definately think he IS a full blown Narc! Before I knew what red flags to even look for, my gut recognized them. It was like a little click each time the flag would appear, I heard it but it didn’t register until much later. Looking back I can see that because I was in a very vulnerable place in my life at that time, (and openly told him so!)..told him that right before we met had been a really hard time for me and to please not come into my life unless he was serious about what he said to me. I trusted him because he asked, not because he showed himself to be worthy. I believed him at face value because no one had ever lied to me in such ways, and I would never think a grown man would lie to such an extent. I was naive. In some place inside of me I sensed something was wrong but could not confirm it until it all played out.
What is evident is that I instictively knew something was not right with this man, and yet did not step back and slow things down. When I tried to slow things down, and just take one day and not talk to him he would freak out. He had to have me, he was adamant that I was his One. I loved feeling so loved or believing I was so loved. I was caught up in picturing.
After my heart break I was looking for support and better understanding of what just happened in my life. I discovered by going through it all again with a fine tooth comb that I was right about him all along; but being right did not feel good because what I was right about was the worse case scenario. I see so clearly now how I was ignoring my gut instinct from very early on because the loving feelings and attention he provided me felt so good in the beginning! Those strong feelings, sexual attraction mixed with hormonal changes wrapped me up tight. I had been in this whirlwind romance, and I was blind sided. In the after math of his leaving, and long silence I had to find out who this guy was. Who was this person that I fell for? Daily reading NML’s posts and reflecting has been so helpful for me. Confirming the truth was vindicating. When I got the email from the 3rd Other Woman she had done what I never did- she reached out- while I refused to contact his wife or pursue any kind of discussion with any Ex’s once I confirmed he was married after all. I did a back ground check on him and confirmed alot on my own before she called me. But what she revealed was that all the things that I had put together on my own in that time since he left, were actually quite right about him after all. And he did the same type of things to each one of us, just a different manipulation a different set of lies. A different character if you will. He would make himself up to be whatever the woman wanted, just to get her reeled in so he could have his fun and drop her when it was no longer fun for him. He hid his psychological issues from me but shared them with the OW and his wife. Who really knows what is true with him? He had been repeating this pattern over and again with so many women. He may of put my health at risk, or rather I may of put my health at risk by sleeping with him before establishing who he really was or if I could trust him. Going through my anger stage I would of loved nothing more than to kick him the nuts, give him a good slap, and also give him a good lecture so he could feel bad about what he has done. But I never wrote any letters or left any ranting voice mails. I am glad I stayed NC from him. I had a strong desire to hold him accountable, but then later saw that I also had to hold myself accountable for my mistake of ignoring my instincts and blindly trusting and loving someone unworthy. I wanted to hear he was sorry, but understand that Narc’s don’t feel remorse and Assholes just don’t care. So, even if I heard “sorry” I most likely would not of been satisfied with that either, and it prob would of been one of those lame “sorry”‘s – a “crumb” of an apology. It is very obvious to me that this is a pattern for him, he repeats it because it works for him, and he is not sorry at all. Any lecture attempt would of been a waste of my breathe and he would of just termed me “crazy”.
NML provides consistent, honest and realistic relationship viewpoints that helped me see that he never owed me his love although he played the part of this character, and he never had to give me an apology because it simply was not in his character. And really I didn’t want a man that behaved such as he, and without the illusions and all the lies, if I had understood him for who he truely was I would not of wanted him. I feel that he created all this hurt and pain for me, but I have to own that allowed it.
I am so much the stronger for this horrible experience. I never thought I would write that! I was emotionally wrecked for weeks and so sad. He truely hurt me badly, but I am now wiser from the help of this blog and all the commenters that share their stories and the support and love of my family and friends. I will always be so glad I found this blog!
Jubilee,
you have had a terrible experience – I feel for you. This guy is full blown narc., but you know that now…
this part of what you say:
“I was right about him all along; but being right did not feel good because what I was right about was the worse case scenario.”
is exactly my own experience. I think I tried very very hard to ignore so much of what was waving about in my face because once I had fallen for him I was actually determined not to believe “the worst case scenario” – that I was right and, in fact I was right from the very first time he asked me on a “date” – when he “pencilled me in for a week on Wednesday afternoon” (!!!) I asked him what was wrong with the weekend, and it was ‘oh, nothing but.. blah… blah.. and bollocks, basically”. I can list (and have always been able to) a load of ‘dodgy’ behaviours and words…they never went past my radar – I don’t know really how I managed to ‘neutralize’ them, but I did, and the longer it went on the more and more I was truely fearful of being right, because to be right was so much of a “worst case scenario” – it was like death chapping on the door, louder and louder – and I would just refuse to answer it.
Instead I tried to focus on the positives of his behaviour, on the good times, on how I felt for him and what he ‘probably really did’ (!) feel for me, but on those days when the knocking of “the worst case scenario” drowned out my avoidance thinking I would become really quite distressed; I would try to talk to him, but that was useless… his only answer would be that he would “leave me alone” – and he would do it!
I should have taken that as a behaviour positive and wiped the sweat from my brow in relief, but instead it would make me really angry that “leaving me alone” was his only feckin answer, his default position, the “only” option he could countenance… I would become even more distressed at that… and so I would make the move to bring him back in.
So, I suppose what kept me in it was largely needing the alleviation of my own quite real and genuine and quite severe distress, or trauma I would say is not too strong a word.
When I found the material here on Nat’s site, confirmed wholly by my then further reading on EUs etc. I knew I was right – without a shadow of a doubt. I had no place left to hide. I had to answer the door.
I spent two weeks in bed – barely even getting dressed for the day – reading and reading and reading some more… I spent four weeks literally floored; I was in a daze. I told my best friend – my only real confident about this ‘relationship’ – and I was gutted that she did not seem to get the enormity of what I was saying; she blabbed the same old platitudes. The enormity for me was that I had answered the door and given the “worst case scenario” the run of the house!! But no-one, not anyone, would understand how I felt; how low I felt; how desperate for help. I don’t talk about it at all – not to any living soul, except on this site (I barely spoke of him anyway, to anyone, except ths one friend, but even that I latterly avoided / shirked).
Sorry for the blab – I intended to make a short comment!! (that’ll be the day 🙂 someone stick a plaster over my gob!!).
Anyway… the short of it is that when I KNEW I was right and could no longer ignore it, I knew I would have my moments where I would try to seek refuge with him – with my comfort zone… but I knew in all certainty too that it was the end. If I post a lot and blab a lot on Nat’s great blogs it’s because I am trying to get used to living with my new house guest (!) to keep it real and not sink back into oblivion.
I can relate to what you write, Fearless, though my situation was shorter. Some of my feelings have re-intensified over the past week, having finished something I have been working on for years, and as I face moving cities. These have meant I finally have the time and the practical need (as I throw things away) to be honest about what the hell I have been mourning and how too I gave so much of my power and love away, when the drum beat of reality was only getting faster – why I ran away from that, and was so adamant that this man was the guy for me, this guy who was, for the most part, prickly, self-obsessed, jealous, jumpy, erratic and quite simply just not that interested in me (in fact, quite contemptuous of me).
I also swallowed shitty behaviour, and was so good at making it fit within the scheme of the ‘ups and downs’ of a relationship. But we didn’t have the foundation for me to justify doing that. The thread between us, the rope that two people hold onto in the seas, was not even there. I was bloody delusional. I was convinced I could do it all. That said, he didn’t help me – with promises of an engagement (telling my family that too), lots of words about how I was the woman of his dreams etc, renting a house for us to move into etc – but still…how high and eagerly I pedestalled this man is scary. I’d never done that with any other man before.
Anyway, it’s been six months for me, and while I am bothered from time to time about losing him (the good parts) and about the sting and shame of rejection, what has been the hardest thing, I think, is getting real about what it was, and about how intensely attached and invested I was. The reality of the situation struck me straight away – within 48 hours of the surprise dumping – [and he couldn’t have been more clear when he said with not a grain of empathy (in response to me saying I was in shock) that he was not as invested in me as I was him and that he was only with me because he was sexually attracted to me], but then it was like I retreated into the fog of shock and denial for a couple of months, so that my brain could actually process the new information properly, both what his version of reality apparently was – that he was “pretending to be happy all along”, but more important mine – that I was, in fact, willing to sell myself short, and had developed all sorts of mechanisms to make that OK – that has been the far harder aspect of all this.
Day-to-day, things are fine, life is lovely, and full of hope and friendship, and I know I am going in the right direction, but these things still need to be dealt with. It’s a bugger sometimes.
@Fearless
It seems we all have spent time in the “trenches” of these fake relationships. I understand the deep sadness you describe. It almost consumed my life, and certainly turned it upside down for awhile. I never thought I could love somone so “hard” that it would change my life for the worse. He stole my joy and peace of mind. I had never had any kind of dealing with a true narc until him and upon reading and learning their “game” I saw him in all of those traits & descriptions, it was scarey to learn how he had repeated different versions of his “I love you” game to other women. He chooses women who are open and trusting. The OW actually wrote “I thought he was a good guy! I really believed in him. I guess I am too trusting” I felt we were so similar in that we were both devastated when the man behind the curtain was finally revealed…denial is so powerful. I thought and believed he loved me, yet those illusions we create and hold on to, don’t last very long do they? Because some part of us is built to recognize real love, and signals to warn you when it’s not.
If nothing else, I got from this experience is that I have very accurate instincts! I have turned a negative into a positive. I am sure most of my friends thought I spent too much time psycho-analyzing him, at one point I was even dreaming of him and it was driving me mad. Until one friend gave me permission by saying “take all the time you need to sort it out” I felt better. I felt pressured to be free of him, yet didn’t know how. As, NML puts it “if someone doesn’t want you- you need to look at why you are still wanting them!”
We truely free ourselves, and it works out in our own time.
NML’s blog is full of such real understanding of our heartache and the issues we encounter with men who are unhealthy to our lives. These people really are toxic to us, but in such a way that is not detected until a lot of damage is done.
We are all the better for finding her blog and this info, and the place to share and support each other – so we can get to a better place, become relationship smart and move on to deal with ourselves. I have found that I can love myself and create my own happiness that does not depend on anyone else, (especially an unhealthy man). I wish you all the best in your process! I feel lucky to of shared it here with you all!
I have done this so many, many times and never with good results, ever. I believe it detracts from both persons. I think for me I have to realize that my version or theirs is equally valid. By that I mean we are all entitled to our own, right or wrong, the same or indifferent, good or bad, it’s ours and we can own it. We can validate or own selves by the choices we make and the actions we take. I don’t profess this to be true, but I believe it to be a way for me to make peace with the pain and suffering I feel, or have caused. Rather than tell them all about themselves and disrespect us both even though it’s tempting. I think it’s better to write it in a journal and keep it there for future reference.
Sorry, revision of “We can validate or own selves by the choices we make and the actions we take”.
I meant…we can validate ourselves by the choices we make and the actions we take.
Why I do the let me tell you about yourself thing… I think why I am so apt to do this is because I have a unhealthy need to be right and I like a challenge. Being right is not necessarily the way to happiness and loving a challenge is only good if it’s possible and based in reality. Otherwise I think both are self defeating and detrimental to yourself and others? Maybe it’s a ego trip on my part?
I have done the same thing but via a letter I wrote how much he had he hurt me (have to admit he liked me ana;ysing him and his friends though) He says even now how hard hitting that letter was but it did nothing to cahnge his behaviour. And yes I got back with him so the second time things fell apart and I was just as hurt as the first time round I thought and a couple of people said well you got back with him what did you expect. And to quote Dr.Phil “past behaviour is a good indicator of future behaviour”
So this time I have done no contact though I fallen off the wagon I am doing much better because it my job to fix me not him and to know even with all the facts he is NOT going to change a single thing because he got away with things because I was still there after he had done them.
Great blog and advice…thank you. ….you got me through the I know he is the one break up..your a cheerleader to the broken hearted
hey girls, loved this post. I said a few things that concerned me when i told my EU I was going awol and couldn’t be his friend anymore (yep crocodile tears) and that got him truely fired up. So how come they can say whatever is on their mind and we are supposed to suck it up? F that. I wasn’t nasty, ranting or anything just let him know why I couldn’t do it anymore. Closure and all? Anyway hope he, his ex wife and their kid have a nice family holiday at christmas (hope the fuckers get eaten by sharks) LOL LOL see ya loser
Unfortunately, what you wrote is true:
“If you’ve gone to the trouble of ‘diagnosing’ them as a narcissist, I’m going to assume you’ve done enough homework to know that if they really are a narcissist, the last thing you should do is call them one as they may become verbally or even physically aggressive or do something to ‘punish’ you.”
Never underestimate these guys. Walk away without saying anything. I only wish I had. My ex AC turned out to be a narc, but I didn’t realize it till it was too late. I had never heard of Narcissistic Personality Disorder – I just thought he was an assclown. After a nothing relationship and painful breakup, we had “the talk”. After all the pain he had caused me, I thought I was entitled to tell him the “truth” about himself and proceeded to, in very demeaning, abusive language. I felt empowered for about a minute and at the time, I thought I was just being honest, but now I realized I just wanted to hurt him like he had hurt me, make him feel small and powerless.
When you devalue and insult a true narcissist, they rage. Not a little, alot. The actual encounter was terrifying but what has come since has been just unbelievable. For example, yesterday, he had one of his colleagues send a letter to my boss at work, accusing me of all manner of lying, corrupt practices. I tried to make it clear that this was about personal stuff but my boss has to take the letter seriously and now I am in very serious trouble.
When someone wants to hurt you, they can. When someone is enraged and wants to hurt you, watch out. I know this site is fun and helpful and the advice is always good. We post back and forth about what we should do with this guy or that AC, but never forget some of these guys are truly sick, controlling and can, when insulted and diminished, react as badly as you think a human can.
Natalie’s advice is very good. There is never any good reason to do this. That I did 4 months ago is one of my truly greatest regrets. It accomplished nothing and now the consequences have been extreme and there is little I can do to stop it at this point. Apologies are meaningless – he seems to exist now to torture me.
Just never feel the need to tell anyone what is “wrong” with them. You never know just how sick or “wrong” they might really be.
@ Tina,
I would hire a solicitor for employment rights or find out what your rights are. Protect yourself!
@tina
I had always done the talk with exes. I thought its what you did, and always felt entitled to it, as if my vision of the relationship was the truth or something. Having read this post and your story, I now see that nothing good comes of it. even if he isn’t a narcasist, no body wants to be called names or be told they suck. What your guy is doing to you is psycho and he needs to learn to let go. ONe of the toughest things to do when someone is attacking you is nothing [and I agree with the other poster to get legal help here] but when someone is acting crazy at you, react as little as possible. I know your gut says fight back but it only makes him look bad and crazy. If you fire back, then you both look like you can’t let go. Let him rage. He will move on eventually, find someone new to torture. Just like when a wild animal attacks, lie still and let it pass. He is looking for you to fight so he can escalate the fight. Don’t let him. Good luck.
It is really interesting for me to see you should not vent your anger at these AC/EUM types, because i did just that when after i was told by him i was no longer required as a partner but could be a ‘friend’ and was then confronted by the other woman sitting outside his home in his car and who i did not even know existed until i introduced myself to her and found out she was not a relative (as he had tried to pass her off as) but had been ‘seeing’ him for over a year!! You can imagine my shock and anger (she was shocked also although i think she probably is still ‘seeing’ him) the fool.
So to say i really gave him some stick would be an understatement. I was so angry for a number of reasons particularly as i realised he could probably have put my health at risk for starters, and all the time i had supported him with a health matter, was there for him when he was hospitalised and had an ‘op’ and then he kicked me in the teeth. Ok he obviously did not want me to find out about his cheating, but i consider that even more duplicious! So, i went off the scale towards him and he stood there stunned, hands under his chin, lips tightly sealed and never uttered one word in retaliation – it was like talking to a brick wall. He never apologised, his face never altered, it was like a mask – quite frightening really on reflection, and when he and she drove off together i could have screamed, i was so furious for having been taken in by him for 3 years.
Why do these men treat the woman they have told they love, put you on a pedestal, bought expensive gifts for etc etc when they turn out to be cheating scumbags?
He did tell me during the start of the relationship he was – mean, nasty, selfish and cruel – and i actually laughed because he did not appear to be either of those things initially, but my goodness i am left feeling some female must have said those words to him in the past because thats exactly as he turned out eventually.
I am now left wondering if he will try to get his own back on me sometime, because he gave me a look of pure evil before he drove away. How sad it all ended like it did, but i could never have been a ‘friend’ after being a lover and partner. I will never understand how this man i loved turned into someone i did not know after all. I was a little ashamed later by the way i had acted, but i hope everyone out there understands why i did react that way at the time?
@Susiejay: totally understand. What a creep. No wonder you were enraged. I often think that if these guys took the piss out of another man the way they do to women in relationships, another man would just give them a good thumpin’ and that would be the matter done! (I DO NOT advocate this as a remedy!! It’s merely an observation).
@Susiejay
I totally get how you reacted. I think it is normal human behavior to be stunned and angry – although some handle it better than others – I am not one those. And have been ashamed of some of the behaviors I did exhibit – I looked like psycho girl!
I am curious – did he use drugs/alcohol? He sounds like my exAC – told me in the beginning that he could be selfish & cruel – I thought the same as you – seemed so sweet. Wrong!
Also, mine had had two surgeries before I came along and had chronic pain from them as we found out later that they were failures – of course with me doing all the research, helping him to dr’s – little co-dependent me!! I feel used as he seems to be able to go do all the things he could not do with me because of “his pain” with the new/old FBG in the picture.
I can’t wait till he is a distant memory with no reaction to his name or thoughts of him!
Very much an eye opener for me after reading this. But I have a question for you all. The AC I currently associate with has become a ‘when I am bored, I reach out to him.’ man.
I had a 4 yr relationship with him and he is a MM. Yes, we have been through the roller coaster but I feel like I am coming to my senses. I dont want to be with an AC. I feel sorry for his wife. But he is someone to text, someone to connect via email with. I dont get mad, ask personal questions, or ask about his wife. For all i care, he can stay with her forever because I dont want to be with a weak man who stays in an unfulfilling relationship out of fear of the unknown. But sometimes reaching out is simply because i am bored.
Wake me up and slap me if I am kidding myself. Could it be the hidden addiction, low self esteem ? or could I just be fooling myself?
Replies welcome. Thank you!
@Ann… I feel like this sometimes, too. It’s partly not wanting to let go, partly loneliness, part boredom. You could join a few Yahoo groups centred on subjects you find of interest, and then you’d have someone to email when you are bored or lonely. You could find a (female) friend within one of these groups and start a penpalship with her off-group. Anything to divert your mind away from him and keep yourself busy is going to help!
@Ann
I don’t wish to be harsh but yes, think you are kidding yourself. I took the same view for a very long time with my ex EUM – I would stop seeing him (sometimes for quite a long time) but I would ‘keep in touch’, convincing myself there was no harm in it cos we were good friends afterall… blah…blah.. blah..
All I know is that no good can come of it. It is simply delaying the inevitable… the inevitable of letting go once and for all and of having to be pro-active and find something or someone more healthy to put your energies into.
I know it all seems kinda harmless, doesn’t it? But think big picture and take a look at yourself… what is it about you that makes you want to maintain contact with this spineless man who is wanting in so many ways, who cannot treat any woman in his life with respect or loyalty (believe me he’s not with his wife because he doesn’t want to be with her??!!) – and he does not have the bollocks to address himself, his own relationship behaviour and sort himself out.. do you? That is the question, as it was mine. Maybe start with asking yourself why you are direspecting yourself by maintaining ‘friends’ with this man who is already attached; what are you really waiting for to happen here? Wht are you really hoping to get out of it? What are you betting on? Be honest with yourself. If you believe the answer is ‘nothing’ -then why so hard to just let him go and amuse yourself in another way?
ps You are not doing him any favours either.
Good luck.
Ann
Regardless of how bored/lonely/ lacking in self esteem you are, the answer is not a MM. A MM is only going to make you even more bored/lonely and lacking in self esteem. And no man is going to solve those problems, you must solve them yourself, and one of the solutions is to stop being in a relationship (or whatever this thing is) with a married man. You are basically saying to yourself ” I don’t mind being second”. In fact you probably come in after his wife, any children, the house, the inlaws, his friends, his job etc.
And don’t fool yourself that limiting it to text somehow makes it okay. It’s actually tragic to have a text/email relationship. It’s a way for him to keep you on hold without making any effort.
It’s not actually a good thing that you don’t get mad or ask about his wife etc. It means you have been conditioned to play the OW without fuss.
Drop him.
@ Aimee
No this man had no addictions as i understand it, unless you add his addiction to anything passing by in a skirt! He used to annoy me sometimes when he blatently passed comments on other females when we were out together, i.e. what they were wearing, how big their attributes were – you get the drift. Well i cured him of that one by commenting on men coming towards us by saying ‘goodness – i bet he’s got a large lunch box’ haha. He did not like that at all and often went into sulking mode. But whats good for the goose is good for the gander is my motto.
Then, of course, he obviously had an addiction to ‘cheating’ which if i had known about at the start of the relationship i would have been the one to leave the building like Elvis. You make allowances for these types of men though, dont you? You laugh disrespectful comments off being blindsided in the thought that he is with you and, therefore, you are his main object of affection – WRONG! Nat, once said that if you looked back closely over the relationship, you would see all those ‘red flags’. Well i have been prone to do that on some occasions recently and she is definitely right. I must have been either head over heels, or head in the clouds more like it! Whatever, i am getting over this clown slowly but surely. My friend tells me the way to get over a man, is to get under another one – but i am not at that stage yet.
I just love that comment ‘getting over the term ‘assclownitis’, that really made my day today!