Picture it: Mid January 2001, I’m sitting opposite my ex in an upmarket Thai restaurant in Dublin getting ready to tell him that despite his dubious efforts to win me back, I was moving to London in less than a week. After him hounding me for five weeks and claiming to be a changed man that had seen the error of his ways, I thought that we could have a mature conversation about our relationship and what had happened and basically part on reasonable terms. I got to ask some uncomfortable questions and what resulted were such uncomfortable shocking answers, I wished I could just get a magic eraser and blot out the conversation.
I was prepared for honesty, I just wasn’t prepared for him blaming his behaviour, emotional unavailability and his hot and cold rinse commitment-resistant behaviour on the fact that I was black, that I hadn’t prepared him for being in an interracial relationship, and that he’d had to put up with comments from friends and family. I’m guessing this was supposed to be an explanation for hitting on my friends too…
The fact that he was an assclown was already known to me and it turned out that what I’d known up until that point was more than enough evidence of why our relationship was dead in the water. In my quest to be The Good Girl That Wants To Know Everything and Get The Truth, I opened myself up to a very painful slap in the face that really wasn’t needed. I also found I had more questions than answers and that some ‘truths’ were very distorted or just plain dodged.
What I did was basically a ‘debrief’, a term you may have heard in programmes like ’24’ because it’s typically about interrogating the ‘subject’ and getting the lowdown on the recent event that took place.
In breakup terms, a ‘debrief’ is typically where you both meet up to basically discuss ‘what went wrong’ and it’s likely that one person is doing more questioning than the other.
Most people that engage in post breakup debriefs will claim it’s for closure but actually, for a lot of people it’s an opportunity to have an excuse to engage and attempt to change their mind by either persuading them and/or showing them what they’re missing.
I’m frequently asked by readers whether debriefing your ex is something I consider a good idea and I’ve noticed a lot of talk about it in the comments. In short, my answer tends to be NO. The only type of people who can actually have a debrief are two people in reality who treated each other pretty well in the relationship and for one reason or another the relationship has broken down, but they’re on reasonable terms and are having One Last Chat to ‘clear the air’. In fact, it won’t even be a ‘debrief’; it’ll be two ex’s touching base who talk about the relationship for a bit, acknowledge their sadness but the rightness of the decision, and then change the subject.
Do you know what type of ‘debriefs’ most people do and that I hear about? The type where one person is in Lala Land and feels scorned, rejected, and confused by the crashing of illusions and wants to stem the feeling of rejection by getting some form of validation from the other party.
They want them to admit they were wrong or that they did feel what they said they’d feel, or that they did mean what they said they’d do, or that they didn’t intend to do, be, or say whatever they did, were, or said, or that they feel remorse or shame, or realise they’re emotionally unavailable and/or an assclown, or even, in a longwinded way say ‘You’re right and I’m wrong and I’m sorry’.
I hate to break it to you, but this is such a high level of expectation that in the great majority of cases, you’re setting yourself up for a crash landing back to earth.
The debrief is loaded with expectations and if your expectations were not met in the relationship, to continue to expect out of the relationship is like continuing the fine art of putting your bucket down an empty well and still expecting water to come back out.
Post breakup debriefs tend to:
1) Create more questions than answers.
2) Open you up to more pain and potentially start the feeling of rejection all over again.
3) Prolong the agony because it opts you back into the dynamic by engaging with them.
4) Lead to sex or some sort of ‘inappropriate’ level of contact.
5) Ultimately be about seeking validation.
To have a debrief with someone, they need to be someone of a reasonable level of integrity where there was mutual love, care, trust, and respect, and with an ability to connect their actions with what results, take responsibility, and be accountable for ‘their part’.
To have a debrief with someone, you need to have your head out of the clouds, also have a reasonable level of integrity etc and a willingness to listen to what they have to say and accept that even if it’s not what you want to hear, you may have a ‘part’ in whatever they have to say.
Even with all that, you’re two separate individuals with two different viewpoints – how they see things may not be how you see things which is why ultimately you both have to process the loss of your relationship and draw your own conclusions. On your own.
There may be how they see things, how you see things, and then the truth may be somewhere in between or closer to one persons version or the other. The point is that it’s highly unlikely that either of you are really that subjective and without an ego.
Relationships take two and as well as being 100% responsible for ourselves, we each are responsible for contributing 100% each into the relationship. You both have a part in the failure of the relationship – neither of you are an island. This doesn’t mean you’re responsible for their behaviour but it does mean that even if they sit there and say ‘OK then, everything was my fault’ that this might settle you in the short-term, but if some of the issues persist in subsequent relationships or you’re still unhappy, you’ll have missed the point of learning your own lessons as to why the relationship didn’t work and doing your own inner work.
Do we have a ‘right’ to answer? Yes and no. To an extent it’s only understandable to have a relationship with someone or be wronged by someone and expect an explanation because as humans we’re inclined to feel that everything should and can be explained but by the same token, not everything will be.
If someone doesn’t want to talk or be truthful, that’s their prerogative. Short of taking the ‘debrief’ to FBI levels and torturing them to get the information, there comes a point where you have to be prepared to work things out for yourself and accept that there may be some unanswered questions.
I don’t know exactly why another ex of mine just literally changed one day. It was like where there had been sun, it got replaced with a cloud that never disappeared. I did try to debrief after we broke up but he was very reluctant to and he felt that I was looking for a wealth of information from him that he either didn’t want to share or didn’t possess. I called him up a few times and got really pissy with him when he wouldn’t talk about things properly – looking back I realise how in some respects, I was being quite emotionally demanding and, well…silly.
We were over. It didn’t work out. We’d both been in the same relationship – surely I could take some time to process what had happened, work out how I felt, and grieve the loss of the relationship?
I didn’t need him filling in the blanks for me. And that’s not because I couldn’t handle any more “uncomfortable truths” but more that it would be the truth as he saw it and that might not actually be true.
Everything in relationships is contextual. If you debrief with an ex, whatever you’re hearing needs to be in the context of the actual relationship.
By the same token, everything also needs to be in the context of what you’re seeking – truth and honesty. Hence seeking the truth from someone who can’t or won’t tell the truth and has a disproportionately large ego and doesn’t see themselves as part of the problem is like throwing energy into the abyss.
I can’t remember what I was watching on TV one day but the psychologist in it said that you can always tell when someone has psychological issues because whenever they experience problems they never see themselves in them.
The truth of your breakup isn’t to see yourself solely as the source of the problems but to accept that they had their part and that you had yours. You don’t need to split hairs and say well he did 76% and I did 24% or whatever – the portion really isn’t important.
What can you stand to learn from your relationship? Relationships and the issues within them don’t happen in isolation. If you stayed in a relationship where there was dubious stuff going down – when you play the relationship back slowly, what do you now see that you didn’t register then? What would you do differently? What have you learned for next time?
If you have unanswered questions you have to ask: Are they truly unanswered questions or have they been answered but with a truth that you don’t like and you’re hoping to hear something different?
Are you seeking confirmation for something that you already know? If so, why not validate your own truths? Why do you need the gratification of them saying ‘Yes I’m an asshole/dipstick/pain in the bum/whatever’?
Have I been totally honest with myself about who I’ve been involved with and what I’ve been involved in and done my absolute 100% best to come to terms with the breakup and accept it?
If you have and you still feel the need to debrief, it is important to be very clear on:
1) What you want to ask.
2) What you want to achieve.
I would focus on a couple of key questions instead of going into a litany of questions that will have it being not too dissimilar to an interrogation and have them inwardly (or even outwardly) groaning. Just be careful of having a debrief where you think you’ll achieve X,Y,Z and end up being disappointed.
Never give someone the power of giving you closure because you could be waiting till the ends of time for it. Closure is permission to move on, but you can ultimately grant that to yourself. It’s about recognising & accepting what has happened & removing your emotional investment out of that person & situation, & instead focusing on you & the other things that matter in your life. Don’t chase your ex for closure – they don’t give it to you; YOU do.
Your thoughts? Have you had a debrief? Did you gain from it and learn or did you open yourself up to more pain?
Check out my ebook on the the No Contact Rule which stresses the important of cutting contact with your ex, plus my ebook on emotionally unavailable men and the women that love them, Mr Unavailable & The Fallback Girland more in my bookshop.
Add to favorites
So true about the honesty being too much sometimes (I can’t believe Dublin boy’s excuses!). When there is pain involved (even if of the terribly selfish AC kind), it can often translate into making caricatures about the person/relationship, and even cruelty (as you’re basically making someone/thing easier to walk away from so you can live with your decision).
Any time I have engaged in debriefs especially very soon after the ending of a relationship, my thinking has been unfair and distorted (when giving them reasons) and I truly think their assessment too has been quite ridiculous. When people lose a relationship, even when they have chosen to, it’s almost inevitable that the relationship and the other person have to be ‘bad’ for some time. Most people, those who are not uber narcissistic, can slowly start to see themselves in it more and more, and then be fairer about what happened and why, and even reach out and reflect/heal together, if it helps the other person or the friendship. It took me a few years before I could answer honestly why I ended a relationship to an ex who was still busting for answers. It was not that I was being dishonest earlier on, it was simply that it was too close to the event (and the feelings of loss – sadness, guilt, selfishness) for me to actually judge it. It takes some time to see what it means.
With an AC, I am not sure a debrief is ever that valuable. My Dad rarely comments on my relationships, but he was very quick to advise me not to ask the AC for any reasons. He said that if he already has a fear of intimacy, this sort of request from him would only confirm it, and, being a narcissist with borderline psychopathic tendencies (as shown in laughing at my tears and belittling me further), my Dad was certain that any apologies would be along the lines of ‘I know I did this, but you made me.’ Sure enough, to form, the emails AC sent me (unsolicited) post-break-up were exactly like this, ‘I am sorry things ended, but you [weren’t good enough in these many ways]. Never apologies, always more reasons why I was not worthy and had made him feel and behave in the ways he did.
I knew what you said, Natalie, about wanting to stem the rejection was true. What I wanted to achieve was a sense that he really did think I was wonderful. So glad I didn’t try.
I completely agree that mutually beneficial communication about a break-up can only come when there has been a trusting, loving relationship. Then you know the person cares about you, regardless of the precise form of the connection. Otherwise, I think the reasons are of very limited validity or value.
Finally, I had to smile when I looked up the true definition of debrief, often used to mean ‘reflection’ or ‘reconciliation’ (which are quite different): Four is priceless:
1. to interrogate (a soldier, astronaut, diplomat, etc.) on return from a mission in order to assess the conduct and results of the mission.
2.to question formally and systematically in order to obtain useful intelligence or information: Political and economic experts routinely debrief important defectors about conditions in their home country.
3.to subject to prohibitions against revealing or discussing classified information, as upon separation from a position of military or political sensitivity.
4.Psychology . (after an experiment) to disclose to the subject the purpose of the experiment and any reasons for deception or manipulation.
Elle, you sound extremely wise! I just had to smile at your “priceless” comment on the psychology definition of debriefing — I teach psychology, you see — it will, I’m sure, always give me an inner smile when explaining this to students. Unfortunately, as Natalie points out, such debriefs certainly don’t happen for real, do they?
I had a mini debriefing session with an ex a couple of months ago; since we split up 3 years ago, one might hope for a mature, measured chat. No such luck! He told me a rambling story about Bruce Forsyth (I kid you not), and made many arrogant self-justifying statements about his appalling behaviour towards me after the break-up, the “best” of which was: “I thought I’d give you a couple of years to sort yourself out.”
Interestingly, though, that “conversation” did help me to walk away from attempting to be friends with him any more, which was a true relief.
Bahah! Brucie-Doddery-I-am-not-Forsyth! How hilarious! I love how he tried to sell his own cowardice to you as charity/gentlemanliness. My AC did that repackage manoeuvre too, saying that he was being responsible ending things.
[BTW, my AC is a psychologist. Can you believe it?]
Yep – my mom was a psychologist. Don’t get me wrong – my mother helped lots of women – was an amazing therapist. She just hid in her work too much. Stopped growing and changing at one point, didn’t take her own advice, it was easier to help others than help her self – she hid behind it. God bless her – I miss her. Oh yeah – I dated a guy once who told me he was thinking of studying psychology – I told him it was nice dating you (bye bye). LOL
Your thoughts? Have you had a debrief? Did you gain from it and learn or did you open yourself up to more pain?
I did have a few conversations with my husband (we are divorcing) and asked what happened, what changed, what could I have done better (yes, I asked him that). All he said (on the phone and on paper) was that it was an adventure and not right or wrong. Via email – this is two weeks after I left – he said he’d made peace with the face that I’m not coming back (after only two weeks?) and that I made a heroic effort in the relationship. I moved far from my support system to where he lives yet I thought he’d at least want to talk about why “we” (the relationship) broke down. Yet I have my reasons, and if I asked him outright he would, like he’d done in the past, get angry, and I don’t want to end on an angry note.
Perhaps there’s nothing to debrief since I already told him I feel sad, and I cried when we spoke. I still cry when I think about how it was in the beginning.
Sue
I will say (despite my post below) that if you’re married then a talk is necessary, you can’t just NC (unless he’s downright dangerous). Even so, it doesn’t look like you had any satisfaction.
At first I wanted a “debrief” as I wanted to get to the bottom of things – to get the truth – what I really wanted was a confession – acknowledgment of all sins committed and accounted for. Never got one – never got the chance to interrogate and I am glad of that. I came to realize that it would not matter what he said – he was untrustworthy in the relationship and would continue to be so after as well. I would not believe a word out of his mouth anyway -so there was no point. It would only be an exercise in futility leading to more questions. Some things are best left unknown – in my case ignorance is bliss. I had heard and found out enough to make a strong case against him as not being anything closely resembling a healthy relationship or capable of it any time soon. Playing detective to uncover all the charges against him was a waste of time – the jury was in – EUM/AC guilty as charged. The next part of investigation was more grueling than any “debriefing” could be – facing myself and admiting no one kept me prisioner, I could leave at any time, I let this happen repeated by normalizing bad behavior and it was my job to step up to the plate. Did that excuse his behavior – no – he faces his own judge and jury. I had to face my judge and jury as an accomplish. I co-conspired against myself in the choices I made. So in this context I an a reformed ex-con – he, however, is a repeat offender.
I really like your analysis, Movedup. I’ve also seen this as you have, as a chance for me to deal with me and my choices and habits of thinking, rather than seeking some sort of temporary contentment via someone else’s mark of approval, which is what I have done til now.
“If you have unanswered questions you have to ask: Are they truly unanswered questions or are have they been answered but with a truth that you don’t like and you’re hoping to hear something different?”
Excellant point Natalie. I was always hoping to hear something different because I couldn’t beleive that what he was telling me was true! It just COULDN’T be. The truth was too sad and depressing. I couldn’t believe that someone could think the way he did about relationships. I couldn’t beleive that someone was that limited emotionally. I always thought if someone didn’t love me the way I loved them it meant there was something wrong with me, or that I did something to cause their behavior. Now I know better. It’s not my fault that they are emotionally unavailable. What I am responsible for is changing my perception that it was my fault and that’s exactly what I learned to do. People are the way they are when you find them. You can’t change them -that has to come from within themselves. You can talk to them till your blue in the face and exhausted. You can’t love them into being emotionally available either. You can support and encourage them when they recognize they need to, are willing to, and get the help they need which is another thing I have learned.
Thank you Nat-keep up the good work.
What nightmares and monsters they all are. I’m in this myself and it’s run full circle all over again. The sad thing, with a debriefing possible or no….my basic trust in anyone and in my own judgment about men after this horrible 8 year experience is gone, gone and just plain gone. I’m so afraid that if I get back out there, the first two years will be wonderful (as ours were), and then…this other person will present himself, just as I let my guard down with them and begin to trust them. I can’t go through this again. And what difference does it make to put ourselves out there for a debriefing. What can we possibly learn that we already don’t know?
Linda in NY
I tried the several times we broke up before to have a debriefing, but it was unsatisfactory and he lied about everything anyway. I finally realized the last time that he had the depth of a bottle cap, and still couldn’t see over the edge of it, so I simply walked away, no debriefing.
He made a habit in his relationships of taking a woman, crapping her all up, and then leaving her when he found someone else, with lies for explanations, thinking he was too slick to get caught. So she got left with his bag of crap while he simply started over with some other poor soul.
Talk, or no talk, it made no difference. He didn’t want to be responsible for any ones feelings, and would lie and do what ever it took not to be caught out as a bad guy.
The only person’s opinion he cared about was his own. I would have been better off talking to a fence post.
And I knew it.
….”he had the depth of a bottle cap”. I had to laugh so hard…still have a smile on my face =)
I have been struggling with an AC the last 4 years and can honestly say that we were never in a relationship. I recently spent some time with him in which he cut the time short and I went back to his place later that same evening to finally tell him that i no longer want him texting or calling me anymore.
I was really surprised at his reaction as he didn’t want to stop communication but i stayed firm on the fact that i really did not want to maintain any sort of friendship.
One thing that i noticed for me was that i didn’t want answers from him…i didn’t want to hear his truth…i just knew that i didn’t like the way i felt around him and I could clearly see that he was not going to change in any fashion.
I explained that i liked him in a way that wasn’t reciprocated and i wanted more (i didn’t blame or try to extract a different answer from him). I explained that after 4 years i still do not know how to communicate with him effectively and i just can’t go on “the same way”.
He was calm about the whole situation and let me say my peace (which was quite short and to the point). He tried to change the subject several times and would try to distract me in small talk…but for me it was the stuff that he didn’t say that confirmed the answers I needed. He asked that i didn’t say “this or that” because it made him feel bad but he never disputed the things i said.
I would agree with NML about the whole debrief thing. I know for me, I would have gotten an entirely different response if i’d gone to him with any motives other than to ask him to stop communication. Asking him to admit guilt, validate my viewpoint or confirm his feelings for me (or lack thereof) would have been a complete disaster. I believe he will honor my request just out of sheer pride (or ego) so while i didn’t get answers on why he led me on and treated me poorly…at least now i can move on in peace. thanks for the article =)
Beautifully put and I truly envy you your clarity and maturity. I only wish I had had the strength to do that during my relationship. It would have ended my pain so much sooner.
I had a different experience where my x said he wanted to come over and talk so I didn’t have any unanswered questions and how he new how that felt. He came over after dropping a bomb on me and gave me absolutely nothing only more confusion and more hurtful comments and “filled” nothing in for me. I sat there heartbroken and as usual completely confused. I heard random comments like “its just not working” “Your birthday cards were to meaningful” “your amazing and have done nothing wrong” “this isn’t fair on you as ive never told you what bugged me” “you deserve everything” “Maybe I have given up to early” Just absolute random crap, nothing but confused rantings BUT what should I have expected? He was always like that. Even though it was his choice to come over and debrief I should have known that from someone who can NEVER connect the dots between his actions and what they cause, someone perpetually confused, hot/cold and most of all the most inconsistent person ive ever met……well I got what I always got and funnily enough most things were usually his idea so it fit the pattern well.
And he continued to be that same person as friends until I got wise and did NC and he continued being that person while I did NC and he is still that same person 1 year later.
He effectively, as usual spilled a pile of crap out of his head that meant nothing and made no sense then walked out.
Whether this was right or wrong and im not sure I care, while we were friends I made dam sure that he new his behaviour in the relationship was unacceptable, the reasons he gave me for leaving were unacceptable, his debrief was pointless and unacceptable. I wanted to make sure he new I didn’t see him as the good guy who’s just confused and ‘TRIED” to do the right thing “Its not my fault” attitude. I wanted his bubble burst and to make sure he new I really saw him for who he was and that ,to most unavailable narcissist’s, drives them nuts because it’s important for them to keep up appearances.
Girls, honestly don’t bother Nat is right, it’s just more confusion.
This reminds me of the stuff the AC told me – random, contradictory, reactive, jumpy, and mine added all sorts of insults and taunts, just to mix it up a bit! ; )
I totally agree with you and Metsgirl about the purpose of a debrief with an AC being more to assert a boundary, and to make it clear that you’re not going to participate in rewriting the relationship and allow them to be victims. This is the final thing I said to my AC: “I can’t actually talk to you about us because I think you’re not being honest about the fact that you made choices, that you weren’t a victim, that you weren’t just this poor guy out of his depth, which is what you’re trying to sell to me. I can validate the fact that you felt stressed and that you’re choosing to walk in order to alleviate these feelings – I know how that feels, but I am not going to participate in a conversation where I get reduced to something worthy of chucking away. All the best for the future.” That was the last of it.
It can be a different thing altogether when you trust the person with your life and feelings.
Wow, i wish i had thought of saying that part ” I can’t actually talk to you about us because I think you’re not being honest about the fact that you made choices, that you weren’t a victim, that you weren’t just this poor guy out of his depth, which is what you’re trying to sell to me. I can validate the fact that you felt stressed and that you’re choosing to walk in order to alleviate these feelings – I know how that feels, but I am not going to participate in a conversation where I get reduced to something worthy of chucking away. All the best for the future.”
Thats brilliant and is exactly how i felt and still feel. Perfectly put!
I would have had more respect also if my X had simply said, i cant cope with being in a relationship because of my baggage and emotional issues and how stressful that is for me and not be made to feel that i was tossed away and worth nothing. Thats why i can never really be friends with him after all he was to lazy or couldnt not even be bothered as usual to take ownership of his own crap. Instead dumping it in my lap.
Let’s be honest – it took me a few days to come up with it! It was the only substantial thing I said in response to him dumping me. It was good in a way, but of course, on some level, I knew that by replying in any way, he could then have me where he wanted me: as hardass or crazed woman, as per all his other exes!
I should add, I gave myself closure. I spent a long time sorting through the crap left behind and making sure I did not take on all the blame. I worked out what was his and what was mine. I dealt with his stuff and what it meant and I worked on my stuff and continue to do so.
Because I did all the hard work myself im even more resilient, stronger and wiser. It ended up being my epiphany relationship.
There is not one thing I need or want from my x, not even validation.
Because I need nothing, he has absolutely no control or power over me and with that comes freedom to heal and keep moving on.
Trinity
You took the words right out of my mouth. Well said! Once you figure out that you don’t need them for validation, closure, friendship, etc. then you’re well on your way to healing and freedom 🙂
After our meeting tonight, my head is spinning! I walked away feeling so clear headed..and now I feel like a rock has been thrown at me. I hate life, I hate this shit…I just want “normal” again! I will be back to respond when I can “absorb” all that you said in this article.
“Do you know what type of ‘debriefs’ most people do and that I hear about? The type where one person is in Lala Land and feels scorned, rejected, and confused by the crashing of illusions and wants to stem the feeling of rejection by getting some form of validation from the other party.”
Damn, Natalie. You are so awesome it’s stupid.
🙂
I’ve never even thought about debriefing. I cut him off 6 months ago and haven’t felt the need to get answers from my ass clown narcissist ex. He on the other hand has made several attempts at trying to debrief me for several months off and on(calling me every other month) now all to no avail because I simply refuse to answer the door(my phone to be exact). He knew all along that he wasn’t capable of being in any kind of relationship other than something watered down on his terms. What could he possibly want answers to or maybe he didn’t really want any answers at all but to simply see if I’d be stupid enough to allow him to push the RESET button to bullshit me once again. Fool me once shame on you; fool me twice; NEVER cause there will be no opportunity to do so. EVER!!!!
Natalie- Thank you for this. I am in the midst of dealing with this right now and your post has helped me think about things differently (always valuable for me).
There is no doubt for me that my need to debrief stemmed from my inability to trust myself. Rather than just trust what my mind, heart, and gut were telling me, I allowed a bully to impose his version of history on to me and even after months of NC, I fell back into the habit. The one thing I could not reconcil out of the relationship was the feeling that the beginning had been real, that the core friendship had been real and that he really had liked me (at least at one point). I went into the debrief literally begging him to show me that part of it, confirm that that had been true and of course he didn’t. In my disappointment, I began name calling and gave myself license to be “honest” and it degenerated from there. I also failed to recognize till that moment that he wasn’t just commitment phobic or an assclown, he was a full blown narcissist, incapable of feeling but very capable of protecting his self-image.
I am learning to trust myself and what I feel. The one thing I know with absolute certainty is that this man is not emotionally safe. He hurt me repeatedly during the relationship and showed no caring, empathy or remorse, hurt me badly during the breakup and, following my disrespecting him during the debrief, set out to harm me seriously professionally and personally to show he could hurt me even after I withdrew. My response to this is to build massive walls (I freely admit to tearing down what few boundaries I had during the relationship), shutting down and withdrawing all contact from him in self-protection. He is refusng to talk to me,to “punish me” with silent treatment for my disrespect. Because we work very closely together, obviously this complete lack of contact is not effective and has caused massive problems at work and we have been sent to forced mediation.
At first, I viewed the mediation as a professional failure but have come to see it as a complete blessing. I want nothing from him and actually wish we could do it separately- I truly no longer care what he gets out of it. What I now chose to get from it is to humbly admit I need help. This wasn’t just a relationship that went wrong for me. This was a life epiphany, the relationship that has finally lead me to strip away 45 years of denial, delusion and bad relationship patterns that have plagued my life. It has forced me to look at me and my role in my life and interactions with others. I have been working very hard on me and am very proud of the growth I have accomplished in the last 3 months. But, it has only been 3 months and I freely admit I am not there yet, am still very much a work in progress. I absolutely get why my work place should just expect me to “get over it” and get on with work, but I can’t do that without help. That is how I see the mediation now – another source of help to get me back to healthy thinking and interacting.
I agree with what you say in the article – those who feel the need to debrief are still, in some way, living in la la land and hoping for an 11th hour miracle. The more you learn to trust yourself, your gut and what you are feeling, the less you will need the debrief. You already know the answers, you just don’t want to believe them. The irony is, when you are finally healthy enough to actually have an honest debrief, you will likely no longer need one.
@ Debra, some of what you have said is very familiar to me. Especially your 1st paragraph.
There is no doubt for me that my need to debrief stemmed from my inability to trust myself. Rather than just trust what my mind, heart, and gut were telling me, I allowed a bully to impose his version of history on to me and even after months of NC, I fell back into the habit. The one thing I could not reconcile out of the relationship was the feeling that the beginning had been real, that the core friendship had been real and that he really had liked me (at least at one point). I went into the debrief literally begging him to show me that part of it, confirm that that had been true and of course he didn’t. In my disappointment, I began name calling and gave myself license to be “honest” and it degenerated from there. I also failed to recognize till that moment that he wasn’t just commitment phobic or an assclown, he was a full blown narcissist, incapable of feeling but very capable of protecting his self-image.
I work closely with my X as well and I can safely say its put me off ever dating someone at work for life. I also allowed a bully to impose HIS version of the truth on to me. Even though he freely chose to leave or sabotage the relationship he has been a nightmare at work, why? Because things are not on his terms. What he wanted to do was place me from partner to best friend/do the same things only nothing sexual and of course he would not have to be accountable. Effectively drop me down my one notch and expect me to be o.k with it. I tried being friends but he was just as rude/ hot/cold and inconsistent as friends plus I was now dealing with a broken heart and all that that meant. So I did NC and im still in it a year later.
I watch this joke of a man still behave the same only from a far hot/cold/inconsistent and everything else. What that did for me though is allow me to realise that I could trust my own judgement, that it was him because here he was still doing the exact same things and it was with or with out me there.
This to was my epiphany relationship, I worked out from him that I was choosing men who fed my abandonment issues, so I picked men that would abandon me, men with so much baggage that they could not possibly give me what I want. I am lovable, very much so and I see that now and no longer feel the need to create the past again to try heal it.
The way I handle working together was the normal way, I kept out of his way and didn’t cause trouble. Unfortunately, even though he wanted out, he has done the opposite and remained in my face. It’s almost like he can’t bare the fact that I actually don’t think about him or I will forget him. Again all about him and not one thought to my well being and just letting me go an heal.
Take care 🙂
I so wanted a debrief because my ex dumped me by email and his reasons were so vague (or so i thought at the time) and i wanted him to tell me that he did have feelings for me, but that he was a dumbarse and therefore couldn’t commit, that it wasn’t my fault etc etc.
I realised that he had pretty much said this to me all through the ‘relationship’ and afterwards too. He had always said i deserved better, that he would never commit, that he was wasting my time, that i was too good for him. When i dumped him the first time he said ‘i enjoyed seeing you before, but it’s not fair on you that i’m not always around’.
I don’t need a debrief – he’s already told me all i need to know by his actions: he had fun hanging out with me, but he was not prepared for the responsibility of meeting my needs (or anyone elses for that matter). End of story!
I so wanted to check up on him through mutual friends last night, but i bit my tongue, told myself to get a grip and withing 15 minutes the urge was gone. 54 days NC.
I honestly don’t see any point in a debrief even if it was a reasonably healthy relationship. It didn’t work out, what’s the point of going over it? And sometimes it’s just not knowable until a lot of water has gone under the bridge, by which time you should no longer care. If you DO care, it’s not about the relationship per se, it’s about a lack in YOU that you are looking to fill with the Ultimate Answer which, trust me, no man has.
Wanting a debrief from an EUM is even more pointless, especially if he has a wife/girlfriend. He’s already done the dirty on two women so why would you treat what he has to say as valuable? You’d be better off soliciting the opinion of a passerby in the street.
And as for an AC – do NOT go there. For them, it will just be an opportunity to hurt you, abuse you, hit you, have sex with you, borrow money etc etc etc
The most powerful thing you can do for yourself is walk away.
Debriefing..Im not too sure whether this is the best way to go about things. I think we want to hear something that just isnt there. If they broke it off, they had their reasons and Im sure they are not very kind towards you, regardless if it was an amicable break up or not.
What do you want them to say…you are soo lovely and gorgeous and perfect, but just not for me? Nothing they will say will make you feel any better..they broke it off, so in their heads what they did was right for them.
Do you want to tell him everything about himself that he doesnt want to actually hear? And if you do, and they understand..well then are you happy for the next girlfriend in their lives to reep all your hard work?
Im trying to decide this for myself…do I tell him how unavailable he is, how emotionally crap he is…what a terrible fighter he is? How awful he makes me feel sometimes, how unloved I felt sometimes? How he needed to open up more to me, how I think he should go see someone to help him find a way of expressing himself..and for what the next girl to finally to get everything I always wanted??
This break up is hard to handle at the moment as Im sure you can gather, but what I have learned so much about now (thanks Nat) is that he was totally emotionally unavailable, consistantly blowing hot and cold and unbelievebly contradictory. That is probably the hardest thing, the contradictions. I keep going over and over all the things he said about us and wanted us to do particulary in these last few weeks and then one day out of the blue, its off!
I’d love to hear your thoughts more on break ups and how you have found them.
Is it so wrong for me to want him back..is he going to come back? Will things be different?
Thank you
He was definitely seeing more than one woman at once, and left you for someone else…and may come back when that episode/dalliance/relationship/whatever ends. That is why there was no explanation and the **POOF** behavior.
He is a Total asshole.
I suspect you need some more time away from the source of the pain/crime scene. Your questions and anxieties are completely normal (and I too have them from time to time), but you pretty much have to keep walking and trust the healing process. You want to get to a place where you can see and judge the relationship better and not be so beholden to his moves and whims. Also, if he is to come back, it CERTAINLY won’t be because of anything you actively do or say now. In any case, I’d really think about whether you really want someone who does a number on you like this. I had the same thing, a sudden ending with no emotional preparation or dignity. He was just doing what was right for him (and more than possibly involved cheating). I simply don’t want to be with someone who is that developmentally delayed when it comes to being honest about feelings and thinking about things in terms of the good of the other as well. The guy you’ve described doesn’t sound very honourable to me. He sounds awfully selfish!
(And, no, seeing as you still harbour romantic feelings, I would not give him the feedback session. It will be a thankless task and won’t make him feel in any way attracted to you. You’ll be relegated to ‘earthy friend’ in no time.)
“Do you know what type of ‘debriefs’ most people do and that I hear about? The type where one person is in Lala Land and feels scorned, rejected, and confused by the crashing of illusions and wants to stem the feeling of rejection by getting some form of validation from the other party.”
Well, this is very true of me, and I think it’s a natural reaction. After loving, supporting, and putting up with all kinds of craziness from my ex, I wanted to know how he could just drop me like a hot potato and then treat me like I was the offending party. Yes, I was scorned and angry, and I wanted answers, because what he did to me was not right. I don’t see what is so derisive about this type of reaction. But I finally moved on, and now I don’t need or want an apology from him. From a time standpoint, it would be too late, and from a healing standpoint, I healed without his input. What no one else could do for me, the Lord did, and I am so grateful for that.
I love the term break up debriefing, and I agree that it is unnecessary. If it wasn’t said during the relationship, then what is the point of saying it when the relationship is ending? If you have all sorts of unspoken issues, the best thing to do is to figure out why you didn’t express them during the relationship and vow not to make that mistake in future relationships.
I think it depends on the relationship, but rarely is it a good idea early on. It generally doesn’t bring closure, but scratches open old wounds, gives someone hope, or invites evil back into your life. Perhaps, years later… My ex-husband and I did a debrief, YEARS down the road, and it was a good thing in getting rid of any blame and allowing us to share time with our child amicably. Really, in all honesty, we know what the issues were. We know in our hearts what happened and what our role was. We know when we are involved with a narcissist, a married dude, or an abuser. Debriefing is better done with good friends and/or a therapist. I have felt the need in several relationships that ended in a confusing manner, double messages sent, to meet one time to “figure out” what was real and what wasn’t. But, listened to that voice I am learning to pay attention to and with every fiber in being, avoided a meeting or conversation. In time, things naturally are revealed, or better yet, in time, it just isn’t really all that important! Hard to believe in the midst of it, but has proven to be the case for me, time and again.
I love this post and have been through this lately. After months of NC, I had 2 debriefings with my ex AC recently. At the first, he was sort of sheepish, awkward, clearly uncomfortable and just wanted to get it over with. He wanted us to be friends and wanted me to forgive him. I used the fact that I had the power for the first time in the relationship to get some stuff off my chest. I asked for (and sort of got) an apology, although truth be told he had no idea what he was apologizing for. He wanted to absolve himself of any responsibility and wanted us to just forget about everything. When I told him he had hurt me very badly, he sort of yelled “I’m sorry”. The best part was a heart-hearted attempt at crocodile tears that even he couldn’t follow through on. I ended it not having any answers I hadn’t before, nor were we any closer to being friends than before but it wasn’t a total loss. Flash forward 5 days. He had spent some time thinking about it and his sheepish demeanour completely changed. He was angry and all he wanted to do was yell at me, tell me how wrong I was, rewrite history and force me to accept his version of things, again in which he had no responsibility. He actually pulled out two emails in which he had used the word sorry (one of which predated the break up, but…..whatever) and said that he shouldn’t have had to apologize as he already had. Then he called me a liar and said that he had done nothing wrong, that I had gotten the whole relationship wrong and he was not to blame for any of it. He was red faced, lying or exaggerating much of the time, had no interest in letting me speak at all. It was a tirade, pure and simple. While first debrief lasted about 15 minutes, this one went on for about 1.5 hours. At the end, I felt angry, beaten up, and had come to see him very clearly as the manipulative, evading, history-re-writing jerk he is. No closure, no answers, nothing. Just more toxic dumping.
I get why we all want the debrief, but if I am honest, all I had really wanted was for him to acknowledge what he had done and that he had hurt me. In the end, I knew that already and why had I thought he would say it, after having been a lying weasel for the entire relationship. Closure is my responsibility, as is forgiveness. You can’t be friends with these guys and under no circumstances should you want to restart the relationship. If they were normal, or the relationship had been, you probably would have left it feeling ok about things. My jerk had ended it by email (and a very vague email at that – flip flapping to the bitter end).
The only thing I got out of the debriefs was the knowledge that I was missing out on nothing, that there was nothing I wanted or needed from this clown and that I had been right for so much of the relationship. He was a waste of my time and now the only question is why had I stayed as long as I did, tried as hard as I did and why did I ever think I wanted him?
Wow, another great article, Natalie. The best part for me was when you said that a debrief can actually cause more harm than good, making the rejection fresh again. Exactly what happened to me recently. About a month ago, I met with my EUM for the first time in months to have “the talk”. I had goaded him into it with a short, flip email and he had surprised me by showing up in my office. After 11 weeks no contact, it was like we had just broken up. All the work I had done, all the healing I had done was gone – out the window!!!
I have been back to obsessing, running over it all in my head. He had once again rattled me, left me confused and upset and I got nothing positive from it. I wish I hadn’t done it. I thought I would get answers or closures or something. Instead, all I got was right back to where I started from. I had worked so hard to evict him from my head and life and within minutes, he had barged back in. There is no possibility of the relationship – its not that. It’s that his psycho garbage has once again infiltrated my head and disturbed my peace of mind. Since the debrief, I have had to work twice as hard just to be able to focus on anything else.
I know I shouldn’t let it upset me. I know it gives him power he neither deserves nor needs. In my mind I know this, but it is the same mind he infected with his crap and now I need to go back to cleaning it out. Don’t debrief – no good comes of it.
I know for myself I never expected a debrief or the chance to even speak to the lying/dissapearing AC. Rather I was just so confused and hurt, it was more of wanting to be able to put my finger on what was real, what wasn’t. Time and hindsight do reveal many truths, and I never, ever would take anything he said to me now for face value. I don’t need to ask him anything primarily because what I learned is that I can not trust anything he tells me.
My ONLY question was: Are you married?
I wanted him to confirm it, I wanted to nail down who he really was.
For me, my need for some answers came with his sudden dissapearance and prolonged silent treatment. All of a sudden, overnight, he is gone…not just physically, but he completely cut off all communication…..I was bonkers for some morsel of an explanation. This time right after he took off I felt so completely abadonded and alone in it all. This is the over night change so many of us experience. The complete 180. I was just completely turned around and upside down by the whole experience.
I ignored my gut instincts on few things, got caught up in all these emotions and I jumped in and trusted him after not being in touch for 20 years. I didn’t expect him to be a danger to me. When you are decieved and begin to find out about it, one starts to wonder when/where the deception really began. My questions were about getting to the reality of the situation because I was so duped. I had to confirm what happened for myself and as the truth became evident it became more clear to me why he behaved the way he did. He can’t handle dealing with me. His action of dissapearing and cutting off communication showed that. I don’t think he will ever feel sorry for his lying and his behavior, because he was capable of doing such a cruel thing in the first place. I don’t need him to feel sorry anymore, but there was time that I felt so used and worthless, I wanted some kind of acknowledgement – it won’t ever come. I realized I could make up my own story aobut what happened, and I could fill in the gaps myself in the story if needed.
What I decided to do was to take his actions as his words and his in-actions as his feelings. Although it is still painful it has helped me to see him for the a-hole he is, and I hope I never see him and I hope he never calls me, as I would never speak to him again after such horrible treatment.
I still have to continue to work on breaking free of my anger and resentment towards him. It is absolutely true that in order to have a real honest and BENEFICIAL debrief one has to of been in a mutually loving and respectful relationship.
WOW! Everything written in this post is soooo well said. Thank you Natalie. Attempting to “debrief” is very dangerous when you’re in a vulnerable state. It can open the door to higher levels abuse and manipulation. In my relationship I wasn’t trying to debrief, I was letting him back in (after breaking up) and wondering why the disrespect seemed to escalate. The best thing you can do for yourself after a break up is cut your losses and move on. All of the “why’s?” that you need answers to are right here on this website. Don’t ask…just READ!!! In all honesty, the answers I wanted were there all along. He was telling me everything I needed to know about why he put up such high barriers with me, but I just couldn’t accept that. I resisted the truth. Now I know better. If another man ever tells me “you pretty girls leave guys heart broken” I will break olympic records getting the hell out of there!
Haha! i think there should be a list of ‘deal breaking’ phrases. Amongst them would be ‘you can do so much better’ and ‘sorry, i’ve just been busy’. In the case of the latter statement, i’ve heard that one SO many times now, the guy would probably get a drink chucked over him before my departing sprint. 🙂
Hi everyone
As I’ve shared in other posts, my debrief was great. It was mainly helpful because there was such a big difference between his attitude whilst together, and then when he suddenly left. It was a dot joining exercise, where I was as much listening to the explanations as to my new found understanding what was really going on, and figuring out my truth from that.
It was like my body, emotions and hormones caught up with my mind that day. You have no idea how weird it is when someone you plan to have children with just goes – at first I was trying to figure out what had happened, where did I go wrong, what he was going through, should I give him more space, is he coming back, should I call him, has he had an accident etc etc etc.
I just wanted to talk to the idiot and let my body experience this reality, of the AC who took me for a ride.
As mentioned, I purely went in to get some questions answered and he was cagey but not rude, in a small way he actually wanted to help me (whether out of kindness or just to get rid of me is debatable) but he did hear me out, there was no blame from my side, no wanting to get back together, no expectation of what he would or wouldn’t say, just clarity. I stopped being scared of him and what he would say or think. I stopped feeling like I had no permission to put him on the spot. Gosh it was liberating. And I felt so much better afterwards and stopped feeling like the victim. Somehow it was just a leveling where I got my closure.
I didn’t expect him to suddenly be interested again, and he wasn’t. That would have been weird. He was cold, and stayed that way. There was some maturity and decency that we were not trying to convince the other person of anything, or influence their choices, he was just hearing me out so I could be rid of him once and for all. Which suited us both fine.
I think the main reason I knew I needed to do this was an instinctive feeling that it was right for me, that it was actually empowering for me to handle him the way I did, and that it wasn’t changing by going around and around in my head. I wish I was better at just letting go, but those dots that got joined were pivotal and I have no regrets at all.
I’m healing really well now, it really was important for me to go through that, it’s been less than 7 weeks now since the breakup and it’s already nearly gone. I just feel pragmatic about it now, still disappointed and irritated that I had to go through it all but have got to about zero interest in being with him now which is brilliant!
Best thing I did – found this site (saved a lot of friendships too by not overburdening them – thanks Nat!)
2nd best thing – debriefed the way I did
3rd – got the right hormonal herbs from the naturopath, my emotional and sexual balance is so much better
4th – focussing on my life again
5th – started eating right again – makes a huge difference
Thanks everyone for your help, it’s made a massive difference.
By the way, I know many of you are not into debriefing, that’s fine, this was what was right for me. Regards, Dianna
I have a feeling in your case, with the miscarriage and other serious circs, that some sort of conversation was important and necessary for you to heal. I don’t think many women could make sense of all you endured on their own.
And, to be honest, I do think I would have short-cutted a few obsessive paths that I walked down, had I spoken to the AC. But, in my case, he didn’t mind the old verbal abuse (without ANY knowledge he was doing it, it was weird), and I just couldn’t risk it. In other words, the cons were too great for me!
Thanks Elle
I think it worked because I was fully expecting AC behaviour when we spoke. So small amounts of decency on his part went a long way.
I got so used to expecting nothing from him (he used to surprise me when he wanted to make time), that I expected nothing and therefore whatever he cared to reveal that was helpful to me was a bonus. He’s pretty much a politican / diplomat kind of person, careful with his words and shrewd. I would say calculating but not because he wants to be nasty, but that he’s disconnected from his heart and doesn’t know how to be in a happy relationship, and way too unavailable to figure it out without messing someone around.
I honestly think that’s the reason he pulled out, that he knew he was messing me around and couldn’t cope with my pain about it any longer. It’s a bit like unhooking the fish that you weren’t supposed to catch, because it’s not the right size or its a protected species. You just can’t have it so you put it back. He can’t justify his behaviour because nothing really cuts it. So he says as little as possible to save face and maintain that pretence that he did nothing wrong by messing me around in the first place. It’s shame, the naughty boy caught out, that now acts shamefully.
Just glad to be out of there and ‘off the hook’. I find human nature fascinating, and it’s really empowering to be able to read people, so you can deal with things appropriately and learn how to do things better. I never imagined I’d learn so much from this one person, it’s priceless! I like to practice gratitude, and I am grateful for all the strength and clarity I have found here. Thanks for all your support and to everyone here, Dianna
All I ever got from a debrief was lies until I demanded the truth only to find out he had been dating YOUNGER women (im only 26 ladies) the entire time he was trying to “win me back”. one of which was a 21 year old porn star.. which he sent me photos of her..in her underwear- that she took for him on her phone…
This man is 37 year old. he wont ever grow up. i knew that when we ended i tthe first time. i got my debrief as I was unpacking my boxes in a roach infested,tiny apartment in nyc. i got another followup debrief when i iborrowed his computer and he left facebook open- with all the messages to women that were “just friends” back when i was the girlfriend. slamming me and begging them to hang out with him. at 1-2-3 am. and planning holidays with old flames.
the best closure you will ever have is to focus on yourself. pretend like he is dead, mourn the loss, and then prepare yourself as if you were going to have your own reality tv show on the most popular network. get in shape, clear your head, learn something new, become THAT woman that would have said “Sorry dear, youre not my type” if you ahd the chance the very first time you met him.
keep your heads up 🙂
@ Grace,
As Katherine mentioned to Elle -sometimes the act, or possibly the disaster, lets you relate some outrageous internal image to the concept of ending the relationship. That can sometimes provide a handy place for us to write “finished” over that part of our lives.
If we didn’t need a dramatic ending, perhaps we would have picked a reasonably appropriate, available, and interested partner, and built a solid and enduring relationship in the first place.
I agree that wanting that last discussion about who did what, what mistakes we made, etc., is almost never going to succeed. We won’t salvage our self esteem, we won’t make them a better person or partner. We won’t find out anything about the relationship, or, really, ourselves, that we didn’t already know. Which means that this will always be a futile communication attempt.
I do think that you have to tell your partner when you decide the relationship is over for you. It is an act of responsibility, and probably important for your own self-esteem going forward into the rest of your life. The form should be appropriate – a postcard if there is violence involved, but otherwise a face-to-face explanation, “I want something different. Goodbye.” – and I don’t think it should be intimate – have a friend or three, or family with you. A phone call, an email or IM or text message can be manipulative and is something that someone emotionally unavailable would do – and you want to practice engaging with others for a better life to follow.
“…sometimes the act, or possibly the disaster, lets you relate some outrageous internal image to the concept of ending the relationship. That can sometimes provide a handy place for us to write “finished” over that part of our lives.” So true!
Two other comments: one is that I think you possibly underestimate how hard it is to judge some of these people before the relationship starts and during those early months when they are on their best behaviour and the hormones are doping us up! You’re completely right, a dramatic end is usually needed for a less than healthy relationship, but I am not convinced we pick people to satisfy a need for a dramatic ending, as you suggest. My problem, in fact, is that I am often too trusting too early, and presume that men have the same sense of rootedness and loyalty as me.
Second, I completely agree that ending things is responsible (and often people-pleasers can be terrible at being honest about changed feelings and direction). But I was relieved to see you added the bit at the end about ending things in the right way (in order for a better life to follow). What I found intolerable in my case was the AC repeatedly trying to make me give him credit for being responsible (by ending things) when he did it in a brutal, truly irresponsible way (via email and text, and leaving me homeless!). I didn’t question his right to choose to break-up, even if his reasons were a bit irrational, I simply reacted to how cruel he was in doing so (in addition to my sadness about losing him and my fantasies of us!).
“A phone call, an email or IM or text message can be manipulative and is something that someone emotionally unavailable would do”
Brad – It is clear that you are an emotionally healthy, evolved man who thinks about things deeply. If only more men were like you. I love what you wrote about how to end it properly. The only reason I actually wanted to talk to my AC and hoped for any form of apology was because of how he ended it. A very vague, ridiculous email. It was cowardly, confusing (it didn’t even say he wanted to break up – you could just have easily interpretted it as a declaration that he liked the relationship – it was the “where’s Waldo” of breakup emails!). I realize that expecting too much from an AC is just a recipe for more heartache but I also think that we do ourselves a disservice if we dismiss our feelings and can’t identify what it is we would have liked to have happen, so that we can easily recognize what doesn’t work for us (ie breaking up by email or text). When confronted with cowardice and half-measures, it really can be hard to just ignore it. I know that is the mature, reasoned thing to do, but that doesn’t always make it doable.
Brad, I don’t think I was clear enough – a relationship should (ideally) be ended with a short conversation, but what is absolutely not necessary is to go back after that conversation to clear up any loose ends. It’s over and even a decent guy is going to think “what the heck do you want now?”
why do others have to be present when you breakup personally? especially when no violence was involved? i don’t get it.
Natalie’s statement: “If you have unanswered questions you have to ask: Are they truly unanswered questions or are have they been answered but with a truth that you don’t like and you’re hoping to hear something different?”
Couldn’t be better said. I’ve been NC for four months after a four year relationship. I have had my own debriefing with myself numerous times. As time moves on, the answers unfold and change as I unravel things on my own. I think any debriefing with my ex AC would put me right back on the front line. First, I don’t trust him to be real or truthful. He lied to me in the relationship and belittled me to gain control. He hurt me on purpose to put me in my place and to avoid any responsibility for his actions. My own private debriefing has made me see that he DID see his part in it but had no intention of confessing or changing because he didn’t want to. The truth was in front of me all along. Even in the beginning when I thought things were good between us, I now see how he was disrespectful but just more careful to cover it or became more attentive to make me overlook it. Over time his disrespect was blatant but his mode to avoid having to answer for it was to just rewrite history….it didn’t happen and I was just a tripper who imagined things. I always got blamed. Nothing ever got resolved. If I am honest with myself, which I am learning to be, he is not capable of a meaningful debriefing. He lost control over me when I went NC and any debriefing will turn into him trying to regain it and putting me in my place. I don’t need any closure from him. I know what happened and it becomes clearer everyday. Giving him the time of day or an opportunity to explain is only giving him a chance to rip off the scab. I have worked too hard for him to get that chance. His opinion of me or what happened with us doesn’t matter anymore. He is such a coward and narcissist that any thing he has to say to me, or about me is skewed. It may be his reality but he lives on his own planet and I am not on it anymore. Thank God.
“Never give someone the power of giving you closure because you could be waiting till the ends of time for it. Closure is permission to move on, but you can ultimately grant that to yourself.”
This is the best part that hit me. And also
“If you have unanswered questions you have to ask: Are they truly unanswered questions or are have they been answered but with a truth that you don’t like and you’re hoping to hear something different?”
that is soo true, all his behavior, his blowing hot and cold, again and again, I knew the answer all the time. He is the one that doesn’t know the answer, he is the one that is confused and doesn’t know what he wants, so he can’t fight for it.
I tried to have a debrief and it ended up hurting us both. Now I know it was so improductive, didn’t get no answers, and he also got hurt. The worst is that I didn’t even meant to hurt him, I was hurting myself and just wanted him to change his mind.
Anyway, I have learned and I will move on and be a better person.
I have had two ACs “debrief” with me… whereby I invited them to be honest with me about how they were feeling about the relationship, and ended up being crushed by their brutally honest (and hurtful) responses.
I can’t help but feel they got a bit of an ego boost by having such a willing listener to unload on… but looking back, I recognize the significant role I played in the interaction, specifically, being the “Good Girl” who wanted to know The Truth About What’s Really Going On.
The end result was rejection and heartbreak, from which I’m proud to say I’ve recovered. And I’ve learned immensely from my experience:
When someone breaks up with you, don’t focus on what went wrong from their point of view, focus on yourself and move on! THEIR post-mortem will only make you feel worse in the end… and the most helpful observations will probably be your own, rather than those made through the eyes of others.
Brilliantly put – don’t focus on their interpretation of what went wrong, trust your own. Their interpretation will only hurt and demoralize you and make you feel worse. Trust your own instincts and your own beliefs about the relationship and what to work on. So true
Great point you made @jennynic. Why give them a chance to rip off the scap cause really thats what debriefing is anyway. A chance to rip it off and you’re bleeding all over again. When we enforce NC you are so right because CONTROL has now been cut off and taken away from them. I have enforced NC for 6 going on 7 months now. Never felt the need to debrief and why would I with a narcissist ass clown who only cares about his 50 inch flat screen and keeping his shit back on track(which simply is another term for shag from chick to chick cause this is how I pay my bills; get what I want). You never want to be on the same planet with a narcissist anyway. Period!! Mine was a narcissists. When I cut him off completely he turned Dr. Jeckyle and Mr. Hyde and called me everything that you could possibly imagine. Degraded me basically. Hadn’t looked back since. I have to concur with you. Thank God I am no longer on that planet with him. Cheers!!!!
I’ve had experience with debriefing and have found this much to be true: if you are holding an inquisition with a total assclown, it’s all going to be your fault. They aren’t going to take any responsibility for their own actions, thus defining them as assclowns, so as Natalie pointed out, very little is to be gained. Alas, however, I am a chronically overanalytical thinker so, in my pea brain, every mechanical failure has a reason, a solution. Something to fix. A flaw in the structure, probably my own, that can repaired. And I damn near obsess until I find it. Even though I know that assclowns cannot be believed, even if they chivalrously and ostentatiously take full blame, which is not the same as taking responsibility in my eyes. By their very definition, they will find a way to justify their lies, their misleadings and downright manipulation. Otherwise, they would just be someone who screwed up and willing to admit this and take actions to NOT repeat the behavior. And even if they say all the things you ever wanted to hear…..can you believe them? Sincerity is not their strong suit………
And in retrospect, if I am honest with myself, I CAN see that the assclown round table discussion WAS to try to get them to come around, to get them to see the errors of their ways. My rationale for this lunacy is that if they “loved” me madly before, they can again. This makes much more sense to the irrational mind when you truly believe they DID love you, in spite of their crappy treatment. I’ve got to learn, really learn, that it doesn’t even matter if they did love me to the best of their poor capability. If their version of “love” is detrimental to me, I need to steer clear. Sounds reasonable, and yet, is anything harder to really, fully accept sometimes? Especially when you have managed to convince yourself that they did, do, and will love you….it’s just a matter of time? I hate myself for actually admitting that, but I suspect I am not alone in this illusion.
That being said, I DID once have a fairly honest debriefing with an ex, long after any feelings existed. The ex, who always lauded me for my sense of humor, compassion, general acceptance of people for who they are, being genuinely myself, and a knack for setting people at ease, pointed out that the fact that I can sink my teeth into something and not let go was the one thing that made all these other attributes nullified. The background info is that Mr. Awesome turned into a sullen, withdrawn baby as the result of some family issues, issues that would’ve been horribly upsetting to anyone. I understood and was willing to give him some space to sort through this feelings while I made myself as near or far as he needed for a time. BUT, this guy was also insistent on being at my place whenever I wasn’t traveling while sorting things out. After months of no attention, no affection, and no attempts to discuss his feelings with me while we’re in this relationship that seemed to be headed for marriage, I did a double take. His withdrawal and basic neglect for my needs went on for months and started to effect how I felt in my own house, and how I felt about me. In the debriefing, he actually referred to me as a “bulldog”. Yeah, that’s about right and it shouldn’t have been a revelation to him since I’d been that same dogged girl since the day he met me. Anyhoo, eventually I became dissatisfied with being left out in the cold, almost completely shut out of his life, except when he was sullenly present in my living room. It got to the place where I didn’t know whether I should try to talk to him or just dust his ass; he was that stoney. I didn’t press him for answers, but I made it clear that shutting me out was no longer acceptable for me. It hurt like hell to let him go, but I had to; it was him or me and as much as it hurt, I chose my own sanity, kicked his ass out, and took back my home as my sanctuary where I didn’t have to worry about what mood he was in in MY house when I pulled into MY driveway. I then predictably grieved and secong-guessed. What if it had been MY family going through such turmoil? What if I’d just held on a little longer? You all know the drill……..
But still, I took into consideration what he said about me not letting sleeping dogs lie and realized I wouldn’t, couldn’t have done anything differently. His behavior was effecting MY well-being and I felt good about my decision to give appropriate space and time for him to come around before I interjected my needs. Sometimes, everyone just needs time, and in particularly troubling times, you might just have to suspend your needs for someone you love. But after some time, he should’ve been moving closer to me in times of trouble, in a fully committed relationship, not further away with no indication of that changing. If insisting on being part of his life, ALL of it, or calling it quits makes me a bulldog, then bow-wow, throw this dog a bone. It is me, always has been, always will be. If I am in a serious, supposedly committed relationship, I want a partnership. I want to be included in the triumphs AND the less than stellar events of life. It was a good realization for myself and one of the few times that I didn’t beat the hell outta myself for his criticism. I considered it, but then discarded it. Wish I had done that with his successor………..
Loved reading this!
Woof woof!
I am totally with you.
In a similar vein, in the wooing phase, my AC said that he wanted an ‘equal’, a ‘partner,’ and told me and others that all my strong qualities were the reasons had been drawn to me and wanted to marry me. But then those very same qualities they became sources of envy and contempt. And I am not talking “strong qualities”, as in, sharp tongued or critical (which can be proxies for difficult behaviour). I am talking about things like commitment, loyalty, emotional availability, independence (of goals etc), keenness, confidence and team-mindedness/ sharing a life. He did not like these things in the end. He said they made him want to “crush” me.
He sounds like a total lunatic!! He wanted to ‘crush’ you?! That is the most insecure statement i have ever heard. Can’t even begin to undersand that mentality. He loved and envied the same qualities? Bonkers.
Yep, they were his words: he wanted to ‘crush me’ and said he felt no sense of ownership over me.
One more thing, Natalie……..
So, what….did your ex assclown miss the fact that you were black from the beginning? Never occurred to him that he might need to prepare himself for an interracial relationship if this was foreign territory? To me, that mindset moves beyond the typical assclownery and into a character of ignorance, if not full on prejudice, which is the result of ignorance and intolerance. It infuriated me to read of your encounter. In my opinion, he moved below assclown……he is the snail-trail that assclowns leave behind them when they slink off like slugs. There. I’m done venting!
Interracial dating is not for cowards, that’s for certain. I think my ex thought was a white girl with dark skin. Unfortunately, he cared more about what other people thought than about our relationship. Now he has a more socially acceptable girlfriend, and I say good riddance. And ironically, all those people he was trying to impress when we were dating have moved away.
Debriefing a total waste of time, I mean how can you even trust what they say. Better to spend that time and energy on yourself getting real about your ex, to me that’s the only truth needed.
After finding out my husband of 3 months was serial cheating via emotional and text-based affairs with young female co-workers, I was devastated and angry. Mostly angry. Only one year before, when we were engaged, and 3 months after our child was born, I caught him having an online affair with a woman he met at his work for “lunch.” I stupidly forgave him and believed it would never happen again, as he promised it would not. Fast forward, I filed for divorce, but wanted a debrief. I had a whole list of questions and I had hope he would answer everything with 100% because if we were over, why lie anymore? I knew that by finding out the truth I would feel so much better and find it easier to move on. However, to all of my questions as to “Why did you cheat again?” “Why did you ruin our family?” “Why did you choose her as your text mistress?” etc etc, the only answer he gave me was that he didnt know, and that he wasn’t looking for anything or anyone. Oh please! If you knew him like I do, you would know he is a narcissist with an ego the size of the Pacific Ocean. He runs hot and cold and cannot commit to a yes or no answer to anything. If you ask him something, he will say “I will try” or “Maybe” or “Possibly” or “We’ll see.” In hindsight, I should not have been surprised our debrient answered no question, but left me with a ton of questions, as well as leaving me feeling more rejected and unworthy than ever before. He also bold faced lied to me on a few things, and I knew it. It made me feel like I was worthless, worthless of his love, respect and even honesty! I do not recommend debrief with an assclown. Like Natalie said, if they didnt validate you inside the relationship, they will not outside of it. Once I emotionally removed myself from my ex husband, my world changed. I am still single, but I am happy and working on myself and my self love and I know one day Mr Right will come alone when I am totally happy with myself. God bless.
Stefanie from America
My ex husband cheated on me and we have been divorced for now 3 years. About 2 years ago I tryed to have a debrief with him and asked him why did he lied to me so much, and he said that he just do stuff like that and he didn’t know what was wrong with him, I new he started cheating with me with a woman named Ann, but then he show up with a woman named Cindy, I had always had the suspicious that they are the same (cindy Ann) but he always claimed that he met Cindy after we were separeted, wich I don’t believe, its just him trying to cover up. I asked him about this and he said that Ann was gone and that she introduced him to Cindy, which I don believed because he keeps lieng, he is such a lier that is sickening. Now I am just having fun with the thought that by now he is cheating on and lieing to her.
@ Allie – I believe they are 2 diefferent women – then there will Lisa, Connie, Joann, Tina, Carrie – and on and on and on. He proabably cheated on Ann with Cindy. That’s what they do – it’s not us, it’s them!!
Yes, you are right, sometimes I think that Ann was the first one when he decided to broke loose and then he just couldn’t stop.
When i was 2 years separated and awaiting final divorce papers I met a warm , emotionally open and very charming man who was in a similar position. “My life is an open book” he would say and indeed , he did what he said he would , he worked at building our relationship, he spoke freely of his feelings and of his past. He introduced me to friends and family , sent me gifts and huge bunches of peonies and after 9 months and a lot of time together ,asked me to consider marriage once we were both free.
The very next day he pulled a Houdini extraordinaire! Disappeared. He had been offered a fantastic job on the other side of the country with lots of immediate travel all over the world and he had to leave right then for board meetings etc…He called me a couple of times..”I’ll be back soon and we will be together” , then silence. He was supposedly in Africa for 2 weeks but the silence continued .Then a couple of 2 liner emails , he was travellingand busy. I was still at this time living partly in his city apartment while he was away. .
Weeks later , 5 kg lighter , depressed , agitated and frantic with unanswered questions I went through his financial paperwork , all perfectly filed page after page of credit card debt and demands from the tax department. Light was beginning to dawn.
Then he sent me an email stating he had returned to his wife and was moving overseas. By then my emotions had run the full gamut.
Deep bonded love and togetherness had overnight turned to fear and concern and missing my partner, followed by aching wounded painful questioning for months, then total shock and finally devastated loss and ANGER. The anger kicked in when he suggested that we could continue to see each other every now and then when he was in town as it was a shame to let good sex go to waste…
Fast forward 2 years , a text out of the wilds of NC .He is on my side of the world , could we meet to debrief and catch up ? OK. I needed to hear the explanation like the relatives of someone lost at sea need to have a burial.. The fallout had been bad for me , tattered self esteem, depression , illness , I needed REASONS damn it!
But wait , what do we have here? An ASSCLOWN ..and AC’s dont change . Looks like an assclown , stinks like an assclown , IS AN ASSCLOWN ladies..and dont you forget it .
He sat across the coffee cups from me, said how very lovely I looked after all this time and suggested hot sex for the afternoon. I stood and walked away ..with the parting shot that he was far too married for me.
The only satisfaction I got after 2 years of pain and illness was leaving him to pay .
So dont be fooled by him initiating the debrief either..not unless you want to amuse yourself marvelling at species Assclownius Incedibils 🙂
And yes, I went on to a repeat watered down version with a merely EUM . Totally predictable from what I learned here. But while there people like Nat and you lot I reckon my pattern is now officially kaput !
@Rosalind – I am so sorry you had to go thru this – but quite honestly you made laugh – “So dont be fooled by him initiating the debrief either..not unless you want to amuse yourself marvelling at species Assclownius Incedibils” LMAO!!!!
It’s interesting – almost all my exes were EUM’s rather than ACs. The one AC I was with, when we broke up I instinctively knew I had to go to No Contact and never deviated from that. I gave him one chance to apologise to me – I simply asked him if he had anything at all to say to me and he looked puzzled and said ‘no’ so I told him I never wanted to see him again from then on. I’m so glad I did.
My ex husband was an EUM but not a bad guy and when we split up I took control and instead of a ‘what went wrong’ debrief (which would have been totally pointless because he could never speak about emotional issues even to save our marriage), we sat down and shared about what we’d both learned from each other or gained from each other that was positive. In the end we had a remarkably amicable separation and the focus on the positive wasn’t emotionally threatening and actually we ended up with nice memories to take away.
I was messed about last year by an immature EUM with some AC tendencies and I made him apologise to me for wasting my time. Initially he got very defensive but I remained calm and held my ground – I pointed out that if he’d stepped on my foot by accident he’d have apologised. Eventually he did apologise and it meant we could remain civil. I took responsibility for my part – getting into something without really checking out his intentions because I was besotted, but he was promising the world and then backtracked big time and once he’d calmed down he did see that was hurtful and damaging. No idea if it will make him act differently with another woman but it certainly surprised him that I was so determined. But again, he wasn’t really a bad person like the AC I did NC with – I wouldn’t have given *him* another second of my precious life.
Actually I really don’t think that most men think that hard when their penises are involved so it’s no wonder they can’t come up with reasonable explanations for their behaviour!
I guess the question is what do we expect them to say? Why do we care what they think? They didn’t want to be with us.
I struggled for a long time after the breakup, searching for understanding. I kept thinking that if I could just understand, I could let it go and move on. First, I thought he was commitment phobic. I read all about that and it explained some things but I still had questions. Then I found this website and thought, “aha! He’s an assclown”. A better fit than the commitment phobe but still left some gaps. I then when to EUM, narcisstic, borderline personality disorder, still in love with his ex, mamma’s boy and a litany of other diagnoses, explanations, reasons. In the end, none of it was satisfying. I had to make my own closure, find my own answers and make peace with the fact that I would never really know what he was thinking or doing or trying to be. What I could control and had always had control over…was me. If I had realized that sooner, I’d have saved myself incredible pain and anguish. I decide when this is done. I can forgive and move on, without having to tell him or have him tell me anything. He had not been honest with me during the relationship so why would I expect him to be after? I had spoken with my ex on a few occasions after (although NC is definitely easier and better). He was still lying, still evading, still withholding. I could put any label on it I wanted it, it really didn’t matter. He didn’t care about me, didn’t want to be with me or have the relationship I thought I wanted. That was really all there was to it. The rest was me. Forget his behaviour. Forget his pathology or reasons. It comes down to why had I stayed, invested, kept going when it was so clear it wasn’t what I wanted. When it was so clear he wasn’t really involved. When my needs weren’t being met and I wasn’t happy. That’s what matters. Those are the only answers I need and they definitely won’t come from him.
Its true that we focus obsessively on them to keep from looking at ourselves. The only peace I found was when I finally stopped doing that. It’s painful and hard to look at myself so honestly, but its the only way this is ever going to end and produce something good. He doesn’t matter. I saw him today and felt nothing. I want nothing from him, including words or explanations. It will only make things worse. Only I can make it better now and that’s exactly what I am going to put my time and energy into doing.
Thank you, Natalie, for being here and helping me and so many others through this. I don’t think I ever could have done it on my own.
Sarah–This is exactly what I had gone through, too. I will add, though, that you also just have to do one additional thing, too:
ACCEPT that he IS an ASSCLOWN!
That’s a really helpful way of putting it, Sarah.
Dear Natalie – This post is very meaningful for me. It highlights one of the most difficult aspects of me. Having read it, I can now see that I substitute the opinions of others for my own. During the relationship, it was what he thought and wanted that mattered. I honestly let him pick what we would do, decide when he would call, determine the pace of the relationship. I thought I was being easy going, low maintenance. The kind of carefree woman he claimed he was looking for. What I was was too scared to say what I wanted. Actually, I doubt I knew what I wanted, other than I wanted to have a relationship with him. When it ended, I substituted his version of things for my own, even though I knew in my gut that it was wrong. I let him browbeat me into accepting his truth (which conveniently excused him of all responsibility or blame). I wanted the debrief (and had several) to get more information, more answers, to try and understand what he was thinking and feeling instead of just sitting with myself and saying “what happened?” I don’t really consider myself a people pleaser. I would normally describe myself as strong, strong willed and very independent, so this discovery is very disturbing and upsetting to me, but it is a necessary finding. I am embarrassed to say I would have done just about anything to make the relationship happen. The funny thing is, as it was ending, there was just this very small part of me that screamed “save yourself”. I went NC before I even knew what it was called and have been distancing myself from him ever since. I may have been spineless or weak willed, but my sense of self-preservation was intact (thank god!!).
The debriefing question is a good one, I suppose, although I think a better question is why do you want one? I wish I had asked myself that before I had done them. It just ended up costing me more self-esteem and pride, fed his ego and made things worse. I just kept expecting him to suddenly be human and he wasn’t. Maybe that was the value of it. The final protective layer of denial fell away and I could really, honestly walk away from him, seeing him as he is. I suppose that if that is all you get from it, maybe a debrief has some merit, although you will likely get there on your own anyway.
tina, one thing you said “I just kept expecting him to suddenly become human and he wasn’t” perfectly said. Sometimes I think when we are seeking answers from AC’s it is still about seeking validation. They won’t suddenly develop a soul and be human and we are still looking to them to be sorry and give us some validation. We are still looking to hear that they found us important in some way, despite their actions. If we really want honesty, do we really need to hear that they just didn’t care enough? We already know that. I initiated NC too before I found this website because of the same thing, self preservation. It was the most empowering thing I could of done. A debrief with an AC just isn’t worth the risk. Why look for answers from someone who’s proven to be morally bankrupt.
Here’s an embarrassing thing I noticed after reading this post. It never dawned on me that we wouldn’t have a debrief. I work with my former AC and I took it for granted that we would talk about it, clear the air and move on. That’s not even close to what happened. We have stopped talking to each other and are very hostile. The debriefs didn’t help and in fact hurt. But I am sitting here amazed that it never occurred to me not to try and have one. I wish now that we had never talked about the relationship. He had wanted to pretend nothing had happened and never mention it. I thought that was stupid. In hindsight, I wish to God that was what we had done. I very incorrectly assumed that we would have to talk to restore peace and understanding and perhaps try and reestablish a work relationship. I hate to admit that the assclown may have been smarter than me here.
Amen, sule. I regret ever having talked to my ex about anything. I am not big on regrets but the one I really have is ever thinking I needed a debrief. My AC and I also work together and I too thought we had to talk about it to get past it. Wrong!!! Not one positive thing came from it and the damage has been incredible. I can’t undo it but I wish I had just let sleeping dogs/assclowns lie and walked away to find my own answers.
Like you, it had never dawned on me not to debrief. Thank you Natalie for not only pointing out its an option but that its a bad option.
I also work with my ex married rebound guy and the first time he stopped contact instead of just telling me straight he no longer wanted to see me I of course wanted reasons which to his credit he did give in a wishy-washy “I don’t know what I want” sort of way. The next few weeks he was very friendly at work and of course you think well he just needs some space. So I basically asked him to figure out what he wanted and let me know. So less than 24 hours later he contacts me and says he wants to keep seeing me and bam – that was the last contact he initiated other than work related calls or friendly chat at work.
Since then I have had absolutely no desire for a debrief – I know why he doesn’t want to remain involved with me (wife and kids he doesn’t want to lose; guilty conscience etc etc) and I don’t need any further explanation. I hope we can maintain a friendly work relationship but he is pulling more and more away. In the end it doesn’t matter – I know there is someone else out there waiting for me and it won’t be long until ex is a fond but distant memory.
It’s true…when in assclownville, do as assclowns do! Or you will be penalized. But don’t let ‘assclown’ become your language (-: Don’t let that keep you from communicating in other situations and with others. Just know that if you know you’re not being unreasonable (and that is importlant), and someone is not receptive of your level and need for communication, it’s for the best that you don’t spend any more time with them, and STOP expecting anything from them. And if you can’t expect anything from them, why would you waste your time!?
That said, I still fantasize about getting to give my xeum, not just the cold but, the frozen-solid shoulder – but I think that’s just human nature, and a little ego-defense/hollywood ending syndrome. Even if he did apologize and admit to being a complete ac and worthless human being – it would only be because he needed me again, another of his slimy ways into my pants and my life. It is SO best to just move on…and not expect an adult conversation and closure from two people who just don’t have it yet.
Curious if anyone else has the following problem —
When I start a relationship with someone, I take is SO INTENSELY SERIOUSLY that I refuse to walk away, no matter how bad it is or unhappy I am. Then, when the guy finally breaks up with me, I become obsessed with winning him back, and this obsession can extend for years. (It tends to extend until he gets a new girlfriend, at which point I feel emotionally freed to let go.)
It’s like something in me has this ethic of Loyalty to Love, and just refuses to let the love story die, even when deep down, I really want it to. I think it’s a combination of too many Disney movies as a child & my teenage obsession with Eminem, where no matter how bad Kim treated him, he was still obsessed with her and always there for her.
In fact, my ethic about love is so intense that I almost never like or date anyone, because I feel I could only begin a relationship with someone I’m willing to be with forever hahaha. As if this could be known before we start the relationship!!
It’s only right now (age 25) that I’m realizing how destructive my ideas of love are, and that I need to grow a fucking spine, and tell dirtbags to hit the road.
@snowboard – After reading your insights into yourself I want to say -horray for you for taking a look into you instead of focusing on the guy. You are truly on the right path to what is most important for all of us-learning about ourselves and recognizing we need to address OUR own thoughts and beleifs about what love is and how our distored perceptions have a negitive effect on who we chose to involve ourselves with and what are motivations are.
Your getting to the root. Working at those roots and digging them up so you can replace them with healthier ones. Good for you.
Thank you Dawn!!
@ Snowboard
Absolutely spot on, I’m just the same and always have been.. in love with love and the object of my affections just becomes the whole point of everything. I wish I’d had the maturity to realise this at 25 – I’m 38 now and panicking myself because even though there is NO WAY I am remotely ready for any new relationship after 3 years with a prime example of “assclownius incredibilis” (that’s brilliant, Rosalind!) I am feeling that the next one needs to be the last one because I don’t think I’ve got another recovery in me… so this confirms where my head is at the moment and and am just not up to a relationship for a while. There’s a lot of work to be done.
I tried a bit of a debrief with him the last few times I saw him – I think I knew I was approaching the NC point and so did he – I’ve done it before but never permanently, though this time I’m aiming for permanent NC.
I know now I was just seeking validation and some kind of admission from him that deep down he really cared about me because he has never EVER told me that he loved me (even after 1 year together, 1 year of “on/off”, and 1 year of 6months NC and the latest 6 months of him coming back as a seemingly completely changed character in what he said (though the actions were still the same) and I hoped that I’d get it out of him. I hoped for that this time because previously I thought he just found it hard to say until 6 weeks ago I found a text from him to a young co-worker (who had the sense to have nothing to do with him)saying “Goodbye forever, sweetheart. I love you”. After this incident he claimed that he loved all his `female friends’ (he has a thriving harem) and three days later than this when I was crying he said “You’re not still on about that, are you?” (Criticism for being upset but not for the fact that I read his texts – he was quite calm and accepting of this!! Though I was gutted and guilt-wracked for doing it because I felt I’d sunk to the lowest of the low from jealousy and confusion).
I know I’m rambling and off track but I wanted to say that a debrief can just leave you even more confused – I asked him what I had done wrong and he said, sounding mock-horrified, “Nothing, sweetie. You’ve done nothing wrong!” Bewildering stuff. (BTW, he likes his little endearing nicknames, they usually work well for him with the harem) I then tried to talk to him about how the whole situation had made me feel, but he just said “I don’t think I’m the right person for you to be talking to about this” which just served to shut me up because I didn’t know where to go from there.
I think the point is that if you go into a debrief looking for crumbs, you might get them, but you can also get a lot more confusion and pain. It’s also possibly quite manipulative (I hate to admit it but I think that’s what I was trying to do) but won’t work because these guys are the masters and won’t be easily manipulated themselves. More frustration and pain for us.
Thanks again to you all being there, I am just impressed all the time by the clear, intelligent, wise women on this site but saddened by what we have all experienced. Love to you all. Charlotte x
Charlotte
they say “sweetie” and “sweetheart” so they don’t acidentally call you by the wrong name.
@ charllotte
You know, when you mentioned him saying I love you to the other girl, it kind of reminded me my Ex husband, he told me he loved me very quick in the relationship and even from our own home, I hear him saying i love you to another woman, and he has said that to soo many that I don’t even believe he knows its meaning, one day I told him that he was a lier because he lied to me like 1000 times, and he was like What! I didn’t like you that much, and I said yea you did everytime you said you loved me.
I can say that really the fact that in my next relationship with this time an EUM, he never said I love you, but it didn’t bother me, I wasn’t looking for his words, I cared more about his actions.
This site is soo good, knowing that I am not alone in this boat, althought is not good, wish nobody had to go through this, but is good to share.
Why is it that we go back? I do have to agree… validation!
Debriefs rarely bring closure – although in a sad way they tend to highlight why you broke up.
As with many things in life, if you don’t laugh, you cry.
Choose to laugh today:)
I really enjoyed reading this post since after eight months of NC, my EU ex just recently contacted me. Since his contact was not clear to me, and done via email, I was very suspicious, but open to hear what he really wanted. This was my mistake to open the door. When I pressed him to explain what he wanted from me, he said he only wanted to “reestablish a connection.” I asked him, “What do you mean by that? Call me and explain to me.” I also explained to him that I was not interested in “being friends,” that if was truly serious about something with me, that let’s sit down and “debrief” (I didn’t use the word “debrief,” but that’s in essence what I wanted to convey to him, that we couldn’t just “reestablish a connection” and pretend like the past didn’t exist. . .I mean, it would take a discussion about why the relationship ended, debrief the negative behaviors that happened at the end (poor communication, withdrawal and angry outbursts, etc), look at what’s changed since then and now, and figure out if we have the same goals in the future. In essence, I told him, “Yes, we MUST debrief if we are going to “re-establish a connection” . . .that we can’t just reset the button and pretend like the past didn’t exist and start over like two people meeting for the first time. Well, his reaction? Fear, once again. When I asked him to call me so we could talk “face to face” or at least on the phone, he made up all kinds of excuses like not having time, and even that he had tried to call me but my cell phone must not have been working properly because he couldn’t get through (this is an outright lie or avoidance). So he REFUSED to debrief with me. I *think* but I don’t know for sure since he never called to communicate with me what he was looking for, was that he just expected to come back into my life and “hang out” and do things together like dating. . .without any strings attached, no commitment to trying or looking at the former relationship and what went wrong (when HE was the one who withdrew and ultimately abandoned the relationship at the end without explaining or trying resolve). So my question or thought to the readers here are. . .well, maybe I was WRONG in asking for a “debriefing” before “opening the door” back up to him. But I really felt the “debriefing” would be NECESSARY to make sure that this guy was truly serious in his intentions with me, that he wasn’t just contacting me for an ego-stroke. And the debriefing would help me understand if he had really changed or not. Well, since he didn’t follow through when I told him it would be really difficult for us to “just be friends” after having an almost three year relationship with each other, even though we hadn’t seen each other in eight months. . .and that I’d be interested in talking with him about it though if he were really serious. Well, he didn’t call me. So I guess he WASN’T serious. And the debriefing, or looking at the reality was too much for him. Well, that proved to me he was really not ready and had not changed. I should have never responded to his initial email!!!
Well done you for sticking to your guns! You probably shocked the hell out of him by being so in control and knowing yourself and what you wanted – hilarious! They say that once you value yourself EUMs and ACs aren’t interested and know they can get nothing from you – this is proven by your experience! ‘Wanting to connect’ is just another waffly, lame way of saying ‘i want you to do [insert self centered, egotistical need here] for me, while not having to contribute anything or think about or meet your needs in any way’. Plonker!
You know now that he wasn’t really interested, you know that he hasn’t changed and you’re not sitting there thinking ‘i wonder if he was serious about me, finally??’ and you maintained your boundaries and your integrity – all in all i’d say it could be a lot worse 🙂
You kind of had your debrief….in his omissions – that he hasn’t changed, that he’s still a quivering, unavailable cad! Don’t be too hard on yourself for responding. I think it was quite mature of you, in some ways. What else were you going to do? Ignore him was one possibility, sure, but had he actually changed, this could have been a story of a great turn-around (not likely, but very occasionally happens). You certainly couldn’t pretend to be chummy chums. So you tried the adult approach of – let’s try to get some consensus so we can move forward (which is what happens in normal reconciliations), but he wasn’t up for it! Bugger it. You know now. For sure. What you’re looking for won’t come from opening that door.
Genevieve,
No, I don’t think it’s wrong that you insisted on having a conversation – at the very LEAST on the phone – about what had happened between you two. Yes, if it was a relatively new person in your life, start of a new relationship, insisting on a ‘defining the relationship’ talk might be a bit much, and enough to scare someone off. But you two have a HISTORY, and a checkered one at that! You didn’t let him press the re-set button and simply ‘re-establish a connection’. And he proved, by his actions or lack thereof, that his intentions were shallow and self-serving. Good job. Maybe next time you won’t respond to his email…or he’ll know not to even try unless he is serious about being present…even as a friend.
Hi Genevieve
I think your exchange showed that he wanted to press the reset button, that he hadn’t changed or dealt with any of his issues, and that it was all about him.
A part of you needed to know that for sure, hence your questioning. He gave you your answers, by not wanting to sort things out. Take this as his answer, consider this your effective debrief that you made the right decision and this validated it.
I can feel your disappointment that he didn’t offer you more verbalisation, but don’t worry, you now know exactly where he’s at. Release those final expectations that he owes you anything or should care more, he is selfish and will get what he deserves in life. You deserve better and can start looking forward to that! Good luck, Dianna
Thank you to Minky, Elle, PJ and and Dianna for your very helpful and insightful feedback. I deeply appreciate your thoughtful words.
If you choose to forgive do you REALLY need a debrief?
A good friend said ” Forgiveness is a choice, not a feeling”. This comment really helped me to see if I can choose to forgive him for everything – every thing that I am hurting over – then it allows me to let go more freely. No debrief needed.
He was married and total liar, most likely manipulated me for sex, hurt me and dissapeared – FORGIVEN. Try it.
Can you forgive him and go without the debrief? can you give yourself the anwswers without consulting him? I see the debrief as a way of holding on the emotional hurt feelings,” I am hurt please tell me something so I will hurt less!”
Go ahead and try to forgive him, think of it as a scab, you can’t keep picking at it to heal. You have to let the wound manage on it’s own to heal. Holding on to my anger is prolonging my agony. In an instant I have chosen to forgive him for it all and take my perception of what happened to me as the truth of the matter.
He treated me horribly why talk to him about that? or seek answers to why he treated me horribly and why he lied? He did it, I don’t need to understand him, nor do I want to understant how he feels when he behaved so badly.
Forgivness is a choice, they don’t have to ask you for it, do it for yourself, it will unburden your heart.
Too true – and also, when you don’t care about what they think, when their opinion no longer matters, you don’t need a debrief anyway.
soo true, and you are so right when you sad ” I am hurt please tell me something so I will hurt less!”
I did it myself with no answer. Got nothing back.
And yes forgivenes help us heal, and break soul ties.
The scar is going to be there, but it doesn’t have to hurt.
I don’t think I’ll ever be able to forgive my ex EUM. I still feel angry and humiliated when I think of how he cheated and lied to me. I think this is why I find it hard to move on. he’s out and about without a care in the world flaunting his latest conquest, without a thought in his head for me after 15 months of a ‘relationship’. with broken promises, disappearing acts and general assclown behaviour. I know he’s a rotter; my attempts at a debrief were met with silence. Nothing has any affect on him. I’m looking forward to moving on and having a day where I don’t think about him and how rejected I feel.
I thought I wanted a debrief so that he would say he was sorry. Sorry for not telling me he wanted out. Sorry for hurting me. Sorry for showing no care for my feelings or remorse. I wanted to hear the word sorry (and did, although it is pretty meaningless when someone is badgered into saying it and there is no feeling behind it). I have since realized that I didn’t want the word, I wanted empathy. I wanted real feeling, just once, in the whole stupid relationship. He left because I began making “demands”, namely that I was looking for any real emotion from him. After the breakup, I went looking for the “friend” he claimed he always was and always wanted to remain but couldn’t find him. To him, friends meant I continued to adore him but he gives nothing back. No thank you. My friends are people who love and care about me.
Anyone who has experienced the mad rush off the beginning, only to be left bewildered and hurt when he decides he is no longer interested should read about narcissists and their overvaluation and then devaluation of their narcassistic supply sources (google “narcisstic allocation” and you’ll find a great article about it). It explained so much about how he was acting and why I felt it was so real when it wasn’t. It also helps explain the rebound, yo-yo cycling these guys do.
There is nothing these types of guys are going to say that is going to help, clarify or provide comfort or closure. They didn’t care then and they don’t care now. The most we can do is hold on to whatever dignity and self-esteem we have left and find our own answers. Why would you want to substitute your own judgement for that of an emotionally sick man who is incapable of holding himself accountable? You can guess what he is going to say – it will all be your fault. Save yourself more heartache and walk away.
@ CE
It would be rare to get ‘sorry’ or empathy out of someone like that, it is up to us to heal our own emotions because they’re what sent our emotions in a spin in the first place.
Thanks for the link, I found the article fascinating. The link “The narcissist is a three dimensional video game and is always on the hunt for an elusive type of supply: the more he has of it, the more he craves it” made me giggle… he now reminds me of a Pacman going around gobbling up energy pills. No wonder I felt so drained afterwards and he had nothing to say… guilty as charged!
I’ve also found some interesting links that some of us may be dealing with sociopaths as well as narcissists, from what I can tell they both exhibit narcissism but the sociopath is more deliberately calculating with no fear of consequences, whereas narcissists are more self centred. Check out http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html or google ‘sociopath narcissist comparison’ for more. Cheers, Dianna
@ leftwondering
and if his wife forgives him, he’s laughing!
Seriously though, I think forgiveness, like a debrief, is still putting too much focus on him and putting him at the centre of your thoughts and motivations. I have simply become indifferent, though it took a lot of time. I can guarantee that these men are not giving us 10% of the consideration that we are giving them. They don’t care if we forgive them or not. Especially if you are the OW. It’s more important to him that his wife forgive him (and if he’s a total bounder he will see that as carte blanche to cheat again).
If it DOES help you move on, by all means. But if you can’t forgive, just stay away from him, work on yourself, give it time and you won’t care anymore.
Yes, I don’t understand all the talk of needing to “forgive”. I don’t feel any need to ‘forgive’him – I just feel a need to accept that he and the relationship is a dead loss and waste of my emotional energy..
I can understand the idea that it is only self-damaging to remain angry and bitter about these men – and to feel like that is no use to us, but it has not occured ot me that “forgiving” him is the only way to resolve my anger with him. When you remain angry with him is another way of still caring about him. When you stop caring, you stop caring to be angry!
I had a surge of ‘big’ anger today (it comes and goes – but is much less now than it was when I was seeing him because I care less and less about HIM every day and more and more about myself). Now when I feel that surge of fury, it is inevitably folloed immediately by anger towards myself, it was afterall ME who allow his crap arrangement for me to continue. Me, and no-one else did that TO ME. So I ask myself, who am I really angry with, and who should I be most angry with – him or me? And I can only conlude that if I want to blame someone I should blame myself.
This does not excuse his behaviour; I have no intention of “forgiving” him for his poor treatment of me and the relationship – he has not asked me to forgive him! (or maybe I would!); he has not, like all the posts above, even wanted to talk about it. I told him two months ago that if he wanted to talk; I wuld do that. He has made it clear that this is the last thing in the world he wants to do!! Though I have had a few emails about irrelevant “work” related things, ketting me know what HE wants to talk about! Letting me know that he doesn’t give ashit about discussing anything important! So, he refuses to acknowledge a problem! He refuses to acknowledge that there is anything the matter with him!
He was content all through the relationship to sell me his behaviour as “normal”, which made me think I was going mad; or that I was misreading everything because he acted as if there was nothing wrong! And I am to forgive this person who appears to have no remorse and who, after nine years of his EU behaviour, won’t even acknowledge the position we are now in – dead in the water? I don’t think so!
I know what I need, and it is not to forgive him. It is to accept the situation as it is and that I am not going to “fix it” this time, as I have done in the past, and to accept him for what he is; to stay firmly footed in reality, move on, let go and forget about it! And to not be too hard on myself for facilitating it all the crap he dished up to my own severe detriment; for not caring enough about myself; for not trusting my own instincts and feelings; for ignoring all the warnings (and they were right in my face!) and for all the self-neglect that I am now dearly paying for.
I think when you finally see it all – and him – for the nonsense that they perpetuate; for the meaningless crap that they tell you; when you finally see that it is OVER for you, and that you cannot ever go back there again, you won’t care about HIM; you won’t care about “forgiving HIM!” – you will simpy care about YOU and how to be better to and for yourself.
It never faois to astonish me how, even at the ‘close of proceedings’ women still tend to make it all about HIM – even when he has f***ed off withour a word!! We need him to tell us we are right and he is wrong (no we don’t! – he talks crap); we need him to explain why he did all those things (No! we don’t – he doesn’t even know why! He is an arse!); we need him to say he is sorry (No we don’t! He is not sorry! Or he would be tripping over himself to tell you that he is!!); we need him to validate our own conclusions about the relationship (No! We do not! We can validate our own opinions – what are we a shower of idiots? I don’t think so. He can’t validate ANYTHING, even if he wanted to!); and finally we need to forgive him so we can move on (INo we don’t! I don’t think so! What for? Why is it still about HIM??)
Only person I’ll be trying to forgive is myself – that’s the harder job; to forgive myself for being complicit in all the deceit and self-deceit – for giving him full permission; for handing him – on a plate – no questions asked – full licence to treat me so badly for so long.
I am utterly convinced that the only way through this is to give him NOTHING else.. no debrief, no more wasted words and thoughts and feelings, including no forgiveness… or is this to be our next EUM/AC challenge: to work on forgiving HIM!? What another waste of our time and energy. Is this just another excuse to focus and priority back on him rather than on oursleves?
We don’t need to forgive him we need to forget him! We need to forgive oursleves for letting him away with it all!
Back again after reading Grace’s post. I concur with you, Grace : No wonder these men think women are walk-overs… the OW forgives him and the wife/partner forgives him. Everybody forgives his appalling disrespecrful, callous, deceitful behaviour…and hey presto they must thinka ll their Christmases have come at once… he gets to be a complete rat and all these women get to forgive him – even when he doesn’t ask for it or care a toss about it.
See when they are done with you… they don’t give a damn what you think – As Grace, I think, has said, they are not sitting at home worrying and rumiinating about whether all these women they treated like somethig they tripped over in the street have forgiven them yet… they are just glad you have buggered off! And glad they were not dealing with a man! They wouldn’t dare treat a man in this way..or they’d have had their arses booted up and down the street by now. These men count on the fact that they are dealing with people who will not hold them to account… who will go away quietly and cry in a corner and not come out till they have “found forgiveness”. If you treated a man like that do you think ke would be desperately trying to forgive you? Don’t think so!!
(I don’t mean to be harsh on anyone here – I feel for you all, and for myself – but it just all seems so unfair – they shouldn’t get away with it that easily).
Fearless- I always enjoy your posts because you are honest and willing to say things others won’t. I have absolutely felt the rage and anger you have and spent a long time locked in the anger. I thought I could never forgive him till he said he was sorry. I have since come to see it differently.
I forgave him for me. Not because he deserved it but because I needed to in order to let go, move on, call it done. I never told him and never will (I agree with you – he doesn’t deserve it and it likely would mean nothing to him anyway). But forgiving him freed me from him. It was the last step in taking my power back, all the power I had given him over me, my emotions and the relationship.
He is a broken, damaged man who was trying to get his needs met. That is all. That he didn’t want what I thought I wanted doesn’t make him bad. That he couldn’t love me the way I wanted doesn’t make him evil, it makes him limited and not the right one for me. Although I was hurt and disappointed many times in the relationship, I now see it was my doing. I had expectations that were disappointed. I never expressed them, in fact many I kept hidden for fear of “scaring him off” with my needs. I wanted far more from him than he is capable of giving, or wanted to give. He was honest about that and I really wasn’t. I made my own hurt, and then blamed him for it.
This isn’t about blaming the victim or taking responsibility for his stuff. I had to stop seeing it all as his stuff and hold myself accountable too. Where is it written that if I want a relationship, he is obligated to give it to me? Even if he hangs around and sort of looks like he might, unless he does, I have the right and responsibility to protect myself and meet my own needs, not demand them from someone else. When I began to see my own role, honestly, it was actually easy and freeing to forgive him. He no longer mattered. I no longer needed answers, apologies or anything. I had given him way too much power and forgiveness gets it back.
I fully understand and feel your rage, hurt and anger. You are completely entitled to it and need to feel it. Forgive if and when you want, for whatever reason you want. The power really is in your hands…..finally.
@Fearless! Such passion! I bloody well loved your ‘closed of proceedings’ speech. I am not even kidding. It was rousing. I keep having to tell myself that, that it’s not really my role to actively forgive him. He hasn’t asked for forgiveness and, I strongly suspect he would think I was over-reacting. He did, to be fair, offer an apology via email that ‘things ended suddenly’ (nice use of passive voice! As if it were an act of God!) and hoped I was doing well, but that was it. I just didn’t feel like the apology matched the injury (and he also then linked his apology to all my shortcomings that MADE him end things) so I told him that, and said that I couldn’t participate in any conversation.
Forgiveness is an elusive thing. I don’t think it’s required to move on. I think acceptance, letting go and, eventually being grateful for the opportunity to love yourself, will get us there. BUT I do think forgiveness can be a psychological (and spiritual, if you’re that way inclined) way of seeing creating that space, acceptance and peace of mind.
On the other hand, I also completely agree that it can be a backdoor way of trying to seek validation and approval, to come out from under the table where you’ve been crying and ask Daddy to, in fact, love you again (through the semblance of forgiving HIS behaviour). I agree that women are much more likely to forgive. In fact, I have read it (on the internet – so it must be true! ; ). It’s like saying, ‘your behaviour hurt me so I will do whatever it takes to allow you to stop hurting me.’
Having said this, I do think aspects of the process have a forgiveness quality. Like I do think a consequence of forgiving oneself (which is the hardest thing) automatically means that at least part of the transgressor’s debts are cancelled.
I think forgiveness comes in waves. Forgiveness may be a essentially choice, not a feeling, but the ‘real’ feelings catch up on the choice, and make us reconsider the choice, and so we have to forgive and forgive and forgive (or let go, let go, let go) as our rightful feelings come up. These things can’t be rushed. Forgiveness has quite a multifarious character and there are many ways of getting there, but I think, at the end of it, it’s really about saying that you can fairly see what went on, that you don’t have expectations of the transgressor, and you’re untied from them. It’s never about saying that the behaviour is OK or babying them through. That’s unwise.
Thanks Tina, elle. I wish you both all the best, however you find it.
I would only say that whatever works for you, do it. If forgiveness helps, do it.
All of our experiences have been very hurtful; but our experiences of our particular EUM/AC are also different in many ways… there may be a time for ‘forgiveness’ and this may be different for all of us. For me, I just don’t care about forgiving him; it is superfluous to my requirements. It is neither here nor there. It serevs me no purpose. And when I finally see all of this as part of my past rather than my present, it will serve even less of a purpose for me then.
I am not an uncharitable person, I have forgiven many transgressions from other people, and gladly so – I forgave my father for all his neglectful behaviour, for a lifetime of alcoholic abusive binges because as an adult I came to see him as a damaged, insecure and frightened man with a terrible illness who was more to be pitied than scorned. And for all that he was still my father and I knew no other. And he loved me. Not well. But he tried. I am glad I found forgiveness for him because I learned then to love him, for all his failings. (And I also forgive what I now realise is the terrible legacy he left me in the way I look for and receive “love” and relationships with men.)
But my EUM? Who is this guy to cause havoc with my life and my emotions, and knowingly and willfully so?
He has led me round the dance floor doing the hokey-cokey for nine long feckin years (bigger fool me!), and I am now in my late forties and, as far as I’m concerned, am looking at a pretty bleak future now in terms of relationships (I’d be happy to be proved wrong about that, but I don’t think I am).
My guy was also dishonest with me about what he wanted. He insisted – all this time – and still does – that he wants to be with me – he ran hot and cold and back again to the ends of the earth and still would argue with me that he wanted to be with me! And he is still not here! And the fact that he is still not here is apparently proof of nothing as far as he’s concerned! Because, according to him, just because he hasn’t done it yet doesn’t mean he won’t do it, because HE WILL!! Just not right now!! Some other day! (according to him!).
If he’d been honest from the outset that would be a different matter but he lied his butt off to manage my expectations and maintain the status quo – so what does that make him? First in the queue for forgiveness? Don’t fink so! And I’m afraid, at this juncture, to now put my energies into finding forgiveness to offer up to him, if even only to the heavens, is like just another job to do around here!! I am not the gift that keeps on giving!! He doesn’t need me to forgive him and I don’t need to forgive him. I just need to call it what it is and call it a day!
I have been down this forgiveness route before…I have forgiven him more times than I’ve had hot dinners! I have told myself countless times that just because he doesn’t want to be with me doesn’t make him a bad person; just because we both want different things from the relationship doesn’t make him a bad person… blah.. blah…. I finally realised that taking this view, that “forgiving him”, was just another way of side-stepping the reality because I didn’t like the look of it and to face up to it would mean I had no excuse left not put that final nail in the coffin. Is forgiving them just another reality avoidance tactic? It was for me… or at least that was what it ended up being, if not what I intended. Everyime I forgave him – on the grounds of just not wanting the same things as me – I ended up being demoted to a friend – with benefits!! (he never seemed too unhappy about that, which made me so mad! I think that was his ideal situation with me – All the benefits, no pressure, no demands, no questions asked. Who could ask for more!!).
I think perhaps that my ‘forgiveness’ is more about “acceptance” – coming to terms with the the reality of my postition; his part in it and my own, coming to terms with who he really is – a cowardly, cowering custard and a manipulative, using, selfish individual who does not deserve the love of any woman until he can return it – in kind!
Elle – I love your last paragraph – forgiveness comes in wave and we have to keep chosing it. I agree with you and tina that forgiveness has its place, not for their sake but for our own. It isn’t about excusing or accepting the behaviour but about accepting the limits of the person, accepting the situation for what it really is and the end of expectations. That has been a real hurdle for me; really realizing how much I expect from other people. I wanted my AC to love me the way I couldn’t love me. I wanted him to know and care what I needed, when he made it clear he didn’t want to do that. I agree with the idea that we do, to a large extent, create our own pain. I like what you said about getting daddy to love us again. It was horrifying to me to realize the degree to which I saw my AC as substituting for my father (at one point, he had even said he felt more like my father than anything else – ick!) It’s Oedipal and strange but on a very real level its quite true. We are all just replaying the relationship we had with our fathers over and over again, looking to finally be loved and accepted the way we have always wanted.
Twelve years ago, I was almost destroyed by a relationship with an EUM. I shut down and stayed shut down until the AC. I can see that now, for the first time. That both of them mirror my dad I can also see now. It’s figuring out what to do about it all that is the next step. In the mean time, I am glad I am learning to forgive myself, the EUM and the AC. We are all just wounded souls trying to get through life the only ways we know how. I read once that attraction is just wounded psyches recognizing each other, affording each other the chance to heal. I had gone into my relationship with the AC hoping for just that – to use the relationship as a chance to grow and heal. I just failed to see that he had no interest in being part of that. The good news is that the pain of the relationship has caused me to do it anyway, and for that I am grateful.
I am not holding on to my anger over it anymore, the anger is toxic too, just like the AC/EUM to my life. The lingering affects of my anger and resentment is problematic for ME. If you don’t choose to forgive them , fine, but it was something that I found has worked for me to finally find some PEACE of mind in all of it. I can’t make sense of it anymore than that. My forgiving him is for me, not him, not to give a free pass. It’s so I can find some peace.
Finally, OVER it
I also don’t give a *crap what his wife does or doesn’t do with him anymore, and certainly don’t care if she forgives him for his behavior, I am out of this BS now – thankfully. I choose to forgive and forget him now and forever. I had a great weekend and finally feel this weight lifting my heart. It has nothing to do with him anymore -yea!
Left Wondering,
I understand completely what you are saying – whatever helps you through I am glad for – it doesn’t matter what works, so long as it works – and am glad you had a great weekend and seem to be well on the mend – and I wish you all the very best.
F
Natalie- Preparing for mediation at work this week, I have found some materials to help me. Having read them, I wanted to read this post again, as the exercises I was given are helping me address why I behaved as I did during my first debrief with my colleague (I am trying to no longer address him or think of him as “assclown”, so I am struggling for another euphemism). I cannot deny that I attacked him personally and brutally during the debrief. It wasn’t criticism or even argument. I devalued him as a human being and told him things designed to cut and hurt. I felt that the months of silence I had endured and the pain I had felt and the disrespect he had shown me entitled me to do it. I see now that was very wrong.
But one of the most helpful ideas I have been presented with is one I had never heard of before – “emotional flooding”. The reason I had behaved the way I did was that I was overwhelmed or “flooded” with a negative perception of him prior to and during the debrief, much like divorcing couples are at the end of a dysfunctional marriage. I had come to have such a low opinion of him that I saw everything he said and did through a very negative filter and reacted accordingly. Once a person is flooded towards someone, it can be hard or impossible to alter the negative perception without serious effort and intervention. Once flooded, every comment becomes a slight or insult, every action can be interpreted as an attack or criticism.
I now realize this has been a pattern for me in many past relationships. Because I am too afraid to ask for what I want and need in relationships, I build up resentments, disappointments and frustrations until I no longer can see my partner in a positive light. Once flooded, I give myself license to attack and hurt and their only response can be self-defence, counterattack or stonewalling (the silent treatment). A toxic cycle that I am working hard now to recognize and not repeat.
I thought I had gone into the debrief with expectations, and on some level that was true. But more importantly, I had gone into it with a very negative and aggressive attitude that ultimately spelled disaster for me, personally and professionally. I love your blog and what you said. My only comment, I guess, would be to suggest adding the danger inherent in going into a debrief “flooded”. What I had thought of as a protective and humorous view of my colleague as an “assclown” has cost me dearly and I only wish I could undo it. I continue to work to that end.
After hearing so many real life stories from you ladies, I am really devastated that there are indeed many ACs living around us. Sometimes, I feel letting go serves the best interest for me and I know it is not good to hold anger within myself. At times, I want revenge and other times I want to seek validation. It’s been two years since we broke up our affair. Nat, your article came at such perfect timing. My ex AC wanted to see me. He said he wishes to have a good conversation with me. Why – I knew his gf left him and he is lonely. How horrible, I was the other woman to the other woman. What a mess! He just kicked me to the curb once I discovered his double or triple life. I am weak, I know what is the right thing to do but deep inside myself I wanted to hear him say sorry. I wanted him to feel how I felt in these two years. It’s mixed emotions and I don’t know why I should still feel for this jerk. Ladies, don’t easily fall for someone so quick, don’t get physical too soon. It is definitely a huge emotional baggage. Debrief only give him a chance to play that card again. I knew he’s still emailing the other woman only that she hasn’t responded. Why does he want to see me again after all these years? Should I give him a chance or should I not? If ever we are going to get back together, when if that girl decides the same, then history repeats itself. Oh no, I know it’s a trap. Be strong, think positive and hope that time will come when I can totally forget about him!
I would see it in mystical terms: a test from the world to see if you’ve learned your lessons or not! Stay strong, stay away, you already have red flags – him being on the rebound, still keeping his options open, still being flitty and selfish. He’s being a baby, and you’ve grown since then. You’ll feel so much more confident (and at peace) if you give him and the world an unambiguous message that you’re not interested. You don’t need this negative and diffuse energy in your life. Think of your big picture hero’s journey, and keep on the right path to get the real prize. I don’t think it’s worth the detour. It’s like sipping the golden chalice that ends up making you disintegrate into fine powder, when you should be trying to find the humble little brown one (not sure if you’re onto the Indiana Jones ref!). He’s not going to tell you anything new, and there’s no way he will be able to recognize how you felt over two years. It smells of the restart button to me. You know way more than he does about you and even about him. I just don’t think a reunion that was good would be making you feel tense and like the onus was on you to work out its meaning. If I am wrong, and if you are wrong, he will make it very, very clear. x
[BTW, bit confusing from your message whether you’ve seen him and now wondering about a relationship, or whether you’re deciding whether to see him at all or not.]
Elle, thanks for your encouragement, I need booster from time to time. I’ve been on the upward curve these two years but why all of a sudden he wants to see me? Shame on me, he called me again and I gave in. I just met with him for lunch. His self-pity manipulation comes back to play again. Casually said apology and said he felt really hurt because I have ignored him these two years. (He’s hurt, what about me?) I couldn’t hold my tears and I felt I have to cry it all out. Of course, he is an opportunist. He held my face and kissed me on the forehead. He even said “what do u think will happen if I make love to you again?” I told him I will NEVER make love to someone who said he never loved me. I knew he has said bad things about me in front of his other woman but when I confronted him, he denied. Lies with eyes wide open. Yes, you are right, there’s the smell of the restart button. Deep in my heart, if he is sincere to me, I am sure I would fall into his trap again. But I can’t, I know he just uses me. I have my pride and dignity. I know he is still trying to get back the other woman who has left the country last year since he can’t promise her a future. He has no one to fill in the gaps and I am an attractive woman. I wished I could just slap him on his face for his lies. He wants the best of both worlds, nothing’s been changed. He has never respected me. He keeps on saying that I am a woman with a good heart, smart and attractive. Hey, I am work smart but definitely not relationship smart to fall for such a guy. I’ve been very restless today, thinking of what he’s said and our meeting. I used to be relatively peaceful already, why so stupid to see him, brought back memories and … I know I have to burn the bridges so that I can’t walk back. I am trying not to call him and avoiding his phone call. He still hasn’t called me yet but he said he wants to see me again. Or maybe he is just being “polite”. I am ashamed ‘coz I know I have made the biggest mistake ever! So ladies, this is the repercussion. Think twice if you plan to see your ex for debrief. Natalie, I am sorry I shouldn’t have failed you. I’ve been a very dedicate fan of yours. You’ve been my lifeline in the past. Now, I have to keep reading your articles again and it really helps. Thank you again, Nat for creating this blog and let us have an opportunity to vent out.
Tiffany
We have all done it, that’s why we tell everyone else NO. But sometimes you just have to find out for yourself. Don’t be hard on yourself, today is a new day for you to take care of yourself, do something you enjoy, snuggle up in bed with a book, go for a run, whatever makes you feel good.
Cut him off. If you can’t cut him off forever, at least aim for six months. I would hope that after that you will have better perspective.
And do not have sex with him no matter how much he manipulates you. I almost gagged when I read what he did – talk about transparent!
Yeah, don’t be too hard on yourself Tiffany. You sound like there was a lot of unresolved stuff there, from the two years of pain, and this is mostly just a sign that you’ve still got to keep going on your journey, and let go of him and the pain and desire he represents. Don’t worry about letting anyone down – you don’t need shame on top of all the rest. Besides, Natalie has written about the old ‘suck it and see’.
Be nice to yourself, Grace is right. Do small, present-minded things, and instead of seeing things as ‘forevers’ – which instills fear anyway, set yourself a realistic time frame. You’re in control, don’t forget that. Not of everything in life, but certainly which direction you face yourself, and whether you surrender to a bigger, more positive force or get caught up with people who trigger your inner hurt.
I go with Grace; his: “what do you think will happen if I make love to you again?” So transparent!! (answer: ‘you’ll have used me for sex, that’s what would happen!)
Whatever you do, do not sleep with this man; he’s a user.
I am always surprised that when I read everyone else’s stories on this site that the answer (and his crap behaviour) seems so obvious to me – the guy in question (whoever he happens to be) is always patently a total waste of our fellow poster’s time time at best and a using, abusing tosser at worst (or even worse!). My experience of my EUM is often much worse, much more prolonged, than many of the stories I read here of other women’s experiences and yet I cannot see it all so clearly when it comes to my own EUM! Why is that??
Now when I feel my resolve at NC weakening, when I get feelings of missing him or wanting him to contact me or wanting to contact him I tell myself that I cannot, I must not, trust in those feelings – and that whatever I do I must not act on them… I think of all the stories I read here and how it is so obvious that these men should be dumped and dumped fast! And I tell myself that whatever I feel for him, I have to ignore those feelings because the reality is that my EUM is no different from those in the stories I read here.
I feel now I cannot trust anything of what I feel; I think my feelings lie to me! And the only thing I can trust in is what I DO. I have already mentioned here that I have written out a list of non-negotiables… the first one is that I am to have nothing to do with a man who is already ‘attached’/has other girlfriend(s); and everytime I think of contacting him I need only remind myself of the first of my thirty-odd non-negotiable boundaries – and that is the matter done! (I don’t even need to get to number 2 with this guy!!)
Never before have I been given such good advice as setting boundaries for yourself – so simple, yet so effective. I thank you NML for being the first person in my world to bring that simple common sense approach to me. If there was no other piece of advice or article on this site, the one about setting good boundaries for yourself with men and relationships – this one alone, all by itself – should still work. I am convinced that this one single piece of advice from NML, if we apply it firmly, will starve the EUM/AC of the oxygen they need to wreak havoc in our lives.
We may be still involved with these men in some way or another; we may be trying to maintain NC, or thinking about putting it in place – but wherever you are in your relationship, it is not too late to set the boundaries and apply them – as of now – even if you have never had them before (the reason we are in the mess we are in – many of us – is because we never had any boundaries in place before, or we made exceptions – and we pay the price)
I can’t trust my feelings (not right now) but I know I can trust my boundaries. They are my safetly net. And from the minute I wrote them down and started to apply them, I have not heard dickie bird for my EUM!! And he has not heard dickie bird from me. And I know that the minute I let him step over the boundary or I remove the boundary for him that I will be back to square one and re-set… rinse, repeat!!
Sensible, self-protective boundaries work.
I am not over the EUM, I am not yet contented or untroubled by it all, by any means, not yet… but I feel much more empowered, more in control of what happens to me in my life and I know that he is now getting a message from me that he has never had before, and that pleases me.
That one, sinlge piece of advice that I first read here on NML’s blogs has been worth its weight in gold for me – I look back now on every crap relationship/date I ever had and I now know exactly where I went wrong – I was a walkover – my boundaries were virtually non-existent. I complained about “his” relationship behaviour, but I never ACTED. Thank you for that, NML. I now know that I have to stop talking, whining and complaining and DO something about it. And I am. Finally I have taken control – a little wobbly at times, but control. This site helps me to stay focused. Thanks!
@ Fearless,
I so can relate when you say “I was a walkover – my boundaries were virtually non-existent. I complained about “his” relationship behaviour, but I never ACTED”. This is exactly how I was. I was a complete, spineless pushover with zero boundaries who always complained about my ex EUM/AC’s horrible treatment of me but never really took any serious action. I tried breaking up with him a few times, thinking this would make him realise he was gonna lose me but he somehow always had a way of turning it around on me – calling me evil and then acting like he didn’t really care if I broke up with him. This would effectively have me running back to him each time, pleading with him to take me back. And he’d say, “I knew you’d regret it and come back” – making it all seem like I was the problem.
I had a kind of a debrief with him before I came across this site and it was everything mentioned in this post. Me (obviously in delusional city), crying, asking him what went wrong, trying to squeeze some empathy out of him, and him, answering “I don’t know” to each question I asked.
I have been at university for the past 4 years and in the last 2 and a half years this asshole was around, my studies really suffered (I mean, not to blame it all on him) but my motivation and interest in my studies declined. This is why you should NEVER make anyone the sole reason for your being. I focused on him so much that I was nolonger able to fully concentrate on my uni work because of all the fights and his flip-flapping and hot/cold behaviour. I was removed from the course while this assclown has gone on to graduate and now has a career…..and a fallback girl (whom he claimed was just his friend) for an egostroke and possibly more.
I am so disappointed in myself because I supported him so much through his own studies while mine took a back seat. I am 24 and should have started a proffessional career by now and it hurts too much to have spent the last four years at university and not have achieved what I wanted. All my years, wasted!!! I now have to start all over again from scratch. Its been 2months NC but not a day goes by without thinking about him and my whole situation just depresses me even more. I need to get my life back on track ASAP and stop wallowing in self-pity. Sorry for the rambling, I need help.
Sonia,
I feel for what you have said… it’s true… these men are not ‘held back’ by these crap relationships, we are. There is no way round it but to accept that this is what has happened and that it was largely down to the choices we made for ourselves.
Go back and complete your studies with a fresh outlook and a new understanding of who is important here – YOU, of whose interests you should be looking after – YOURS. Next time you trip over one of these people – choose YOU. Have a plan, so that you are not caught out twice… get boundaries set, know what the red flags are, do not ignore them and be prepared to WALK away at the first sign that “he” is an EUM/AC.
Yes, he has wasted your time, but it’s not the end of the world – worse things can happen!… and you are so young… I wish I had learned all of this at 24!! You have your whole life in front of you – go now and get it!!
And give the clown NOTHING else of you! This experience, as shitty as it is right now, will stand you in good stead in the future. You may one day even be grateful that you learned a hard lesson in what is actually good time. although you don’t think that right now (24 year olds think they are getting old!! You are are not!)
Read about these relationships and these EUM/AC men and how to avoid them, so you can never,ever be here again. Don’t despair. The world is your oyster. Re-claim your baggage now and take yourself and your life back.
F
Just one more add-on… since I’m still here..
Sonia…. the thing you must not do now is allow the emotional and psychological ‘aftermath’ of your experience with this guy to continue to hold you back. When you know you are in a hole, stop digging! Put the spade down. Let it go. And go DO something else that is productive for YOU.
Fearless,
Thank you for taking the time to reply to my comment. Much appreciated. My spade is officially down, and I am starting to work on ME (getting the happy, enthusiastic, full of life, old me back before I was a resident of assclownville ). I know there will be a time when all this’ll be just a memory. Time heals all wounds and I know I’ll get there eventually and like you said, I’ll be thanking him for teaching me that people as cruel, heartless and inhuman as him actually exist in this world, and I’ll know to steer clear of such people. This is my first and hopefully last ever EUM/AC experience, thanks to NML and all the ladies here.
Amen!
My ex broke up with me seemingly out of nowhere, (although now with time and detatchment I can see he had been pulling away from the relationship for at least a couple of months) and it was pretty traumatic. Every day for a year and a half he had told me he loved me-everyday we made plans, I had met his parents, he had brought up me moving in, we exchanged keys, had talked of a future, with children. Then, in a 20 minute converstation, he broke up with me, because we had “different energy levels”, I didn’t cycle (and no he’s not Lance Armstrong, he didn’t cycle once in the 18 months we were together 🙂 ) and because I didn’t have “more friends to introduce him to”. Oh, and that I had not always been there for him when he needed me (which is ridiculous, I think in that year and a half only only begged off 8 times to stay in and told him to go have fun with the guys, and this guy goes out at least 4 times a week). Seriously. That was it. I was suprised because that was the first time I had heard of any of these issues. Not to dismiss his complaints, but I also didnt think they were deal breakers…I mean, I had just made us dinner, can we talk about this? Do you really break-up with your “future wife” because she only has 25 friends that you find interesting? What if she’d had 26? What number is acceptable!!? What about you get more friends if you are not happy with the ones you have? I laugh now but at the time I was shicked and felt very betrayed. This person who had been my good friend for three years before we even dated had told me he was ready for a committed relationship, and that he saw me as the mother of his children, was now devaluing and discarding our relationship because I didn’t cycle. Worse, he said the reason he didnt say anything about it “for months” was because he didnt want me to jump through hoops for him to make him happy. But he said he was sure, he didn’t want to work it out, it was over, but that he still respected my intellect. So instead of putting away the dishes, I packed my bags as he watched. I said “I am not trying to change your mind, I won’t stay where I’m not appreciated, but I would like the real reasons you are doing this, for closure, because not cycling is not a reason”. He wouldnt say anything else, except that I also worry too much. (Except, apparently, when it came to him 🙂 ) He never owned up to anything, any commitment issues, nada. It was all on me for not reading his mind and living up to some ever changing impossible level of performance, for him. After about 45 minutes of packing making sure I had everything, because I never wanted to go back to that house again, I left.
A couple of weeks later, I asked him to bring a few things I had forgotten to my apartment when I wasn’t going to be there. I decided to give myself a final say-because I felt I’d been ambushed that last night, and I had done alot of thinking in the following two weeks. I left a note letting him know that although I had accepted that it was over and decided to move on, I had a couple of things I wanted to say. That I felt betrayed, that he had been needlessly cruel, exploitive, and arrogant, and that I deserved better treatment than to be judged and devalued so he could project ALL of the failure of the relationship on me for somehow not being enough. It felt good to get it off my chest, but I was very civil, no name-calling, and I owned up to my own part in the mess, and acknowledged that I needed to figure out why I would commit to a man who was so unstable. (His pattern was that he lays it on very heavy and then, just when you think you are going somewhere with him, he breaks it off, and jumps into a new relationship…and I got involved because he said he was “ready for a change, going to therapy, blah blah blah”- YES, I should have seen it coming, yes I had low self-esteem).
At which point, he started making noises to all of our mutual friends that he’d made the biggest mistake of his life, that he was going to write me to make it all better, but he never actually came to see me. I think he was just trying to save face and not look like an assclown. Then he disrupted me at work with IM’s asking, could we meet and talk about it? He hadn’t been able to sleep for weeks because of “what happened” (he never takes responsibility for his actions, it always sounds like it was a natural disaster, out of his hands). He felt terrible! (He never once asked me how I was). I told him no, a man who spent months lying to me could not be trusted, and I didn’t need him to validate what I knew, I was in a relationship with a man who exploits women physically, emotionally, spiritually. And I allowed it. I refused to meet him, and thank God I did.
I found out later that while he was going through this whole charade of repentance for anyone who would listen, he’d already found a new girlfriend, and he that he may have even set his sights on her while we were still together. And no, he’s not 18, he’s 38.
I know that if I had agreed to meet him for a debrief, he would have only spelled out more clearly, if a bit more politically correctly, how I had let him down. He would have vaguely and ambiguously owned up to feeling bad about how I somehow got hurt. I know how I felt, why do I need him to explain to me why it wasn’t really that bad, and that he’s not such an assclown? How can a a guy who was writing a letter to get back with is ex while starting a new relationship be trusted to be truthful about anything?
After that last IM, I went no contact and it is one of the BEST things I ever did. He is also off limits in conversations with mutual friends, and that has helped alot too.
stay strong! no contact!
jasmine
On the day I walked out of my recent experience with an A/C, he asked me if he could “have a conversation” with me at some future time about why the relationship broke off. Well, the A/C had a habit of all talk and no follow through and to me, this was just another example. So, I told him, “you won’t ever do this.” He claimed I didn’t know that for sure.
Well, even though I knew he would never do it, I got mad and tried to force him to have the conversation. And, of course, he made up a bogus excuse saying, “Well, I was going to, but now I’m not because you did….. blah blah blah…..”
My ex left me 3 weeks ago. I honestly don’t know why. we got into 1 fight (first one in our 3 month relationship) about money because i was supporting him (he lived with me) and I was broke. I just needed some help. he left. He keeps saying he just needs to find himself. I feel i can’t close this chapter of my life because I don’t understand why he left. I ask him what i did wrong and he says nothing. But how could it be nothing. I’ve become obsessed about it and can’t move on. He won’t speak to me at all now so I don’t think I’ll ever have an answer. how do i give myself closure?
Kristy, you should be grateful that it lasted only 3 months!!! Can you imagine if you were investing years?!
No answer is your answer, he already told you that he needs “to find himself”, that’s probably the truth. Maybe he is embarrassed that he was living on your expense?!
@ Kirsty, you said:
“I don’t understand why he left. I ask him what i did wrong and he says nothing. But how could it be nothing.”
Believe him. You did nothing wrong. Why are you assuming that you must have been at fault. Why do you think the blame must lie with you? As Grace says, people want to end relationships and move on for all kinds of reasons – it doesn’t have to be anyone’s fault.
Try not to beg for explanations from him and for ‘closure’ – accept that it did not work – for whatever reason; that is your closure. And, as Grace says; think twice next time before you start living with someone after only three months – it does not bode well; it’s barely enough time to get to know eachother never mind ‘set up house’, so to speak. Moving someone into your home is a big step in a relationship – don’t make it so lightly next time.
You’ll be fine – just let it be.
Take care F
I removed all his contact info and deleted him from facebook so i’ve had no contact with him at all. it sucks that he can just shut me off like that but i’m trying to accept that it wasn’t me. I just feel like i failed therefore I did something wrong. Thank you for the advice.
Hi Kristy, it is very easy to think that because they left it must be something that you ‘did’. You’re putting too much of ‘you’ in this situation as if you’re entirely responsible for the success or failure of the relationship. It’s not that relationships end for no reason at all, but that doesn’t mean that the reason is you. Why have you not stopped to consider that the reason is him? Why is he on so much of a pedestal? If your relationship can die based on one argument, it was never going to succeed. What were you going to do? Never argue again. I would take it as a red flag that at the first sign of you asking him to help you out when you’d been supporting him that he bailed. The problem here isn’t you asking him to help out. The problem here is in him thinking that he doesn’t have to help out or that he should move on as soon as there is an expectation for him to step up. Maybe he does need to find himself. Maybe he needs to find a streak of responsibility, care, and respect in there. You have to accept his reasoning even if it doesn’t make sense to you. It’s his reason. It may be bullshit, it might not be, but that’s not really for you to decide or spend your life’s energy determining. It is bloody tough breaking up with someone and feeling at a loss as to what happened, but being totally honest with you, it sounds like there are some uncomfortable red flags here, especially not so much living together in the first 3 months but more that you’ve come to be supporting him during that time. Walk your way back through the relationship and make a note of what you see – your closure is in there somewhere. Take care x
We dated long distance for 3 months the he decided to move closer and in with me. Then we lived together for 3 months. There were a ton of red flags during the first 3 months. I just thought if he was in a different situation he would do better and he was, or so i thought. I’m not trying to put him on a pedestal i guess I just figured it was me. You have very valid points though and this site is helping. I just hate that i gave so much to him (financially and emotionally).. I feel broken and embarrassed. I just need to let go.
Kristy,
My A/C wanted me to move in with him after two months. That, itself is a “red flag” but wait, there’s more! During that two months, he and I had never, ever, spent 24 hours together. (It’s a long story.) We only spent evenings together. I mentioned this: “you want me to live at your house when you and I haven’t spent 24 hours together? Don’t you see a problem here?” He didn’t see it as an issue…. After I started hanging out at his house, he became a completely different person. I walked out, but I’m like you, I’m wondering why he changed, while claiming he loved me and wanted me. After I walked out, he refused to speak to me. He refused to answer questions. Like Natalie said in another post to me, he was basically, “play acting.”
Kristy
Not every relationship will work out, otherwise we would all marry our first boyfriend and live happily ever after. Maybe he doesn’t like being nagged to pick his socks up, he hates your cooking, he’s robbed a bank , he would rather go drinking with his friends three times a week than stay in with you, there’s a girl at work he fancies, his ex got in touch, he’s bored with domesticity, he knows you’re not the one.
Is hearing any of that going to make you feel better? The bottom line is that he has assessed his situation and doesn’t want to be with you. He dumped you. There’s your “closure”, which IMO is way overrated and the perfect excuse for women to humiliate themselves chasing after a man who is not interested.
Be thankful that he isn’t talking to you anymore. That’s perfectly acceptable after a breakup.
I do think that living with someone within three months is way too soon.
It does hurt to get dumped but you can move onto something better.
Hi,
I am actually about to have a debrief with someone. I decided to do it, because he insists in me explaining what he did, because he still doesn’t get it (via texting every once in a while). I no longer feel attracted to him, nor do I want to seek validation and start again. I did no contact with him but didn’t never tell him why. He was Mr. Unavailable, chasing some girl with a boyfriend, and that seem enough for me to apply the No contact Rule. It’s has been months from that now. Still, I am going to let him say what he thinks, listen to his side and answer his questions (Suck it and See). If he still doesn’t get why I don’t want him in my life, than I will continue as I was doing (No contact).
Leeluh
Ooh let us know how it goes! And be careful out there.
My AC has got no idea of how I feel or how miserable I’ve been, how much I’ve wept, how many things I’ve written about him on here and elsewhere. Even if he read all the postings by me on this site, he’d never guess it was me writing. I maintain a friendly attitude towards him during the bits of contact we still have. I am trying to decide whether (once I instigate NC) to write a letter to let him know what hell he’s put me through over the last few months. My pride says, don’t let him know. Let him think you are indifferent and that you just walked away out of boredom, or because you found someone better than him. But there is something inside me that thinks, why should I just absorb all the pain he’s given me and let him walk away blissfully thinking that the way he treated me is perfectly acceptable? What about honesty?
And so, my “closure” might be had by sending him a long, long (paper) letter telling him that I only put up with all his shite because I was an idiot. Or it might be had by just telling him to sod off, cos I’m bored with him.
Hey Wastedlove – i’m guessing your AC already knows he’s a dipstick and that he’s treated you badly. He’s probably wondering why on earth you haven’t walked away before now! When you cut him off, he will know exactly why.
I’m at the point now (4 months NC) where i am totally over the ex EUM and even though I, like you, wanted him to know what he had done to me and how he’d made me feel, i didn’t. I’m really glad now that i didn’t, because it would have made no difference to him – it would have been for my own validation.
“I only put up with all his shite because I was an idiot” – he already knows this, there is no need for you to say it. Let your absence in his life be the last message you ever give him.
I hate to say this, but he won’t read it , nor care. I wouldn’t was my time on this one.
Instead, do something for yourself, like cutting him from your life and be happy.
Thanks Alli and Minky for your comments. He only knows only the tip of the iceberg of how much he’s hurt me, because I’ve kept it a secret from him. I also know that he would definitely read it, and be extremely upset not because he’d feel empathy (he cannot) but because it would be a criticism of him. He suffers from OCPD and NPD, and these two disorders run his life. So I’m torn in two about whether to debrief or try to get closure. Is there any point when a man has these disorders? Will it help him by making him more self aware? Will it shock him into changing? If it has no effect, what’s the point? I might as well write it all out for my own catharsis, then just file it in “My Documents” forever.
Write it out for yourself, but don’t send it. It is cathartic as i did the same and it did help at the time, but now i am SOOOO glad i didn’t send it.
You may think you have hidden your pain from him, but he knows he’s done wrong and that you *should* be hurting and walking away, so when you do, he’ll know exactly why.
You asked “Will it help him by making him more self aware? Will it shock him into changing?” – not your concern. It’s not your job to give him an ephiphany (which you won’t anyway), it’s for him to realise and want to change when he’s ready, if ever. My ex EUMs former fallback girl sent him a long ranty email, telling him stuff that, in his own words, ‘he knew already’. You know what it did for him? Nothing. He is still the same. He still got back with me knowing he had nothing to offer, he still dumped me by email two weeks later – he’s still the same old knobhead, living the same old life.
You should be focusing on making YOURSELF more self aware and making your own changes. You’ve got enough to be going on with changing your own habits! And they should come first! Don’t take his on as well!!
@Wasted Love
You’re better of shearing sheep! Dude will not understand and/or care. You are NOT dealing with a normal person who is in touch with his emotions. You are NOT dealing with someone who is capable of empathy or compassion. How do I know? From the hundreds of comments posted on this site and the fact that if he were a decent person in the first place he wouldn’t have put you through such pain.
Chances are he won’t respond to your letter and if he does, it will be twisted so that he becomes the victim – it’ll be all your fault!
It’s hard, but let it go. Write the letter to your self and when you’re feeling better, burn it.
I wrote my ex-AC a letter right after we parted ways. Mostly because he went from calling me every day to just shutting me out completely. I wanted to have my say. Needless to say, I got NO response from him. I waited a couple weeks, then went to see him to try and talk. It was pointless. He just stared straight ahead while I said what I had to say, and then he gave absolutely no verbal response. His only reply was to try and turn it around on me by mentioning a few trivial things I did in the relationship. I owned my part, and apologized, but still got nothing from him. I wish now I had just stayed away and kept my dignity, because trying to find closure only made me feel more humiliated and insecure.
Now, over a year later, we still have minimal contact thru business (we don’t actually work in the same place, thank goodness). I am polite and friendly, but I do not flirt, and I do not talk about our past relationship. It’s really hard sometimes. He has been dating someone else now for over a year. I thought she would be the rebound girl, and it wouldn’t last. And
sometimes that situation makes me want explanation from him even more.
But what I realize is this. If his relationships after me did NOT work out, I would still think he’s an AC, but I would think that he is probably just one of those clueless AC’s who doesn’t even know how to treat a woman. Not a desirable man, but you can almost pity someone like that.
However, since this relationship is still ongoing, and he SEEMS to treat her decently, that is a different story. It means that his bad treatment of me was deliberate. He DID know better. That is the worst kind of AC, in my opinion. The kind who only changes for his own selfish reasons, and doesn’t give a damn about making amends to the wake of destruction he left behind. I don’t want closure from someone like that.
@Nicole:
If the ex-EUM treats the next girl badly, the proof is there that he is an AC. If he seems to treat the next girl better, he’s still an assclown as he obviously knows better.
My feeling however, is that he’s the SAME man who has met a girl who won’t challenge him. One who is willing to accept his crap – that’s why it may seem as if their relationship is flourishing. One who won’t mind having her feelings trampled, being ignored, not getting a response to relationship questions and being disrespected. From your post I can see that YOU are not that type of woman.
We all know that these men don’t change, so if the new girl is fine with a lack of trust, respect, commitment and love then whoppee for her. I doubt however, that he is being decent to her. I doubt that he’s treating her the way you would want to be treated. Let her have him. Try your best to mind your own business and not check in on their relationship. What’s is the crucial point here is that you didn’t feel loved and respected by him so you bailed. Kudos to you!
I am at the stage of trying to go NC but having trouble burning my bridges.
I woke up at 6am and started fretting about meeting him today. He said he’d ring, take me to see his rented flat while he’s between tenants . (I’ve always wanted to see it.)
I didn’t want to go but could not think how to get out of it without saying something lame like “I’m not well.”. I did toy with the idea of saying, “it’s not a good idea because we fancy each other so much we’d end up in bed” but that flatters his ego too much. And I thought of saying “Sod off” but that burns my bridges.
Needing time to think, I switched off the answering machine so he could not leave a message when he rang, and sure enough he rang, and 20 minutes later rang again, and 30 minutes later again…. while I sat here trying to decide what to do, what to say…
Then I had a brilliant idea!
The next time he rang I answered and whispered conspiritorially … “I’ve got someone here…. a man…… I can’t talk…. went out with him last night …. he stayed over …. he’s just phoned in sick…. can’t meet you… can’t talk…. bye” .
And afterwards I though — genius! What a brilliant idea that was! Leave him thinking I’m NOT desperate to see him, WILL turn down an opportunity to be in his company, can EASILY replace him and would cancel our arrangement at the drop of a hat. Have “moved on”, in fact.
Then, to rub it in, I emailed him a pic of a gorgeous bloke and told him this was the guy that is here and looked like he was staying the day.
Good?
Good!
The chap in the photo is in fact someone I am in contact with but who lives hundreds of miles away so no chance they’ll ever meet.
I fel proud of myself today! Baby steps, but they still get you to where you need to be!
Wasted,
I’m sorry, but this is too much work and games.
Why don’t you just cut this man from your life and be done with him. You’re only prolonging your misery and extending the drama in your life. Be good to yourself and move on.
I’m still fighting the urge every day to contact him. Its been a month and i know i need to let go. But i wake up thinking of him. I think of him all day. What is any advice on how to stop thinking about someone who wants nothing to do with you? I’m desperate for help. My family and friends just yell at me for being sad. I don’t know what else to do.
Kristy, sounds like you are in constant “debrief” with yourself! I know the feeling only to well!! There is a lot of advice on Nat’s blogs about getting in control of your own thoughts – have a trawl throught them. Have you signed up for the No Contact email ‘reminders? I found that helpful in the first weeks. Another trick I hear mentioned is to ‘ration’ yourself. Make a rule with yourself that you are allowed only x amount of time per day (say, an hour), for example when you are allowed to think about “it”, the rest of your time you need to push your thoughts away, literally, push them out of your head. Be more aware of your thoughts and redirect them when you have to, to a more positive place. Try also to mentally engaged in something else – just doing mindless chores I find doesn’t really help. We tend to think we cannot control what we think; but we actually can if we recognise negative “noise” in our heads and do something about it – replace it with positive “noise”. Good luck.
@Kristy. I’m going through the same thing as you in that he’s in my head all the time. I think Fearless’s advice is absolutely spot on. You need to fill your head with something else. My personal way is to engage in chatting up other men on internet dating sites, this may not suit you, though 🙂
I’ve been trying to keep myself busy but i always find my thoughts going back to him. I refuse to contact him because I know that he will not respond. I just can’t believe he was able to walk away so easy and just pretend like i never existed. I’m going to try harder this weekend. I will overcome this one way or another.
Just do not go near him at all – write him off – and time will heal. Eventually everything in your present slips into your past. You’ll get over it when you want to get over it. That’s the truth. And ten years from now you might sometimes try to remember his name. Honestly.
Hello, I broke up with my boyfriend of four years (ish)
just before Christmas. It’s a long story, which began as a long
distance thing (we met while I was on a holiday in Europe)… and
then, just over a year ago, he moved here to Sydney supposedly to
get the defacto partner visa and be with me permanently. This was
no easy place to get to. However, he has spent the last fourteen
months NOT getting that visa. You are only allowed to be a
‘visitor’ in Australia for three months at a time, so every three
months he has travelled to NZ to visit friends, before coming back
and having the clock reset for another three months. It’s been
driving me insane. All the promises and no action. Always ‘I don’t
know, I don’t know. I’m coming around to the idea, it just takes me
longer than most people…’ etc. It’s been a horrible year for me
and there have been many times where I’ve cried and begged and
pleaded, trying to understand what was holding him back. Why was he
spending every day on internet gambling sites instead of filling
out forms so he could live and work here. Always telling me he
loved me but never doing these things. We had a lovely time
together but all those nice times were moments of escape, avoiding
‘the situation’. He just couldn’t plan for a future. So temporary.
He’s always travelled and his job has been an itinerant one, and
he’s never had a settled relationship. I spent three years working
on that square peg. Well, I finally had enough. He’s gone back to
the UK twice in the last twelve months and still hasn’t worked
anything out… so I ended it and he left before Christmas. I tried
to do NC (or at least bare minimum contact) for a couple of weeks
and I felt lighter and happier than I have in I don’t know how
long. However, he’s emailing me now, wanting to submit his visa
application and be given another chance. He’s trying to remind me
how good we are together and how much he loves me. He says he knows
he’s failed me but he needs me and wants another chance. My gut
tells me nothing will be different. He has so many personal issues
relating to motivation, direction, where he even would want to
settle down IF he did, etc… and I know he hasn’t addressed them
in these three weeks. To the contrary – he’s been sending me texts
telling me what a nice time he’s had with his family! Unbelievable.
Well, I stuffed up last night because I replied to one of his
emails, after a bit much wine. I told him what I thought of his
‘laughable’ attempts and ‘winning me back’… he seems to think
that regular updates of what he’s been doing is going to win me
back? I don’t get it. Well, I wrote a reply and I regret it because
it started an avalanche… I got a reply that’s turned a bit
nasty… not overly, but just trying to be pointed in places. I now
feel the need to talk to him because I want to end on a pleasant
note. I hate this feeling of it all being so harsh. So I’ve asked
him to call me today when he gets up (there’s a big time
difference). I know he doesn’t understand that I want to move on on
my own. My gut tells me that nothing really would be different if
he came back. I truly love and cherish what we’ve shared but I
don’t think we’re healthy for each other. But he doesn’t understand
and it’s heartbreaking. I think he’s scared enough now that he
would try to get a job and make a life… but I know that there are
other issues that he hasn’t dealt with in the very small amount of
time that he’s been gone. I wish I’d stuck with NC without telling
him I was going NC. I wish I didn’t feel so confused and as though
I should give him this chance. We’ve loved each other so long but
I’ve become so drained.. and I know I’ve been a mess too. I just
want time to sort some things out for myself. I wish he could
understand that without thinking I’ve turned into a cold, heartless
bitch.