You know those situations where you want to die of mortification or at the very least, freeze everyone and wipe the last few moments from their memory? Yeah, I had one of those a few weeks back. I accidentally told someone that their boyfriend is, in fact, married not divorced.
Picture this: I’ve joined her and mutual friends for dinner. From the outset, her demeanour vibrates pissed-off-ness. Within minutes it becomes clear that the source of it is that all-too-common one: man trouble. From suspecting that he’s lying, to her near-constant unease, to him silencing her questions and doubts by claiming she’s crazy or him becoming jealous and possessive of her, she was exhausted. She couldn’t pin him down, but he wanted to know her movements and why she hadn’t answered his call at high speed.
I couldn’t understand why she was so twitchy until she explained that we knew him.
A quick scan through my mental Roladex and I came up blank. We don’t have any shady friends, I thought to myself. Turns out, though, we do have acquaitances that get up to shadiness! Based on her description, I then assumed it was another guy that we’d met at the same time, but she said no and described her guy.
“I think we have it mixed up because the guy I’m thinking of has four kids, lives in X and his wife is a Y. What did you say his name was?” And then I felt myself get very uncomfortable as it dawned on me that this dipstick had lied to her about his ‘situation’. We were talking about the same guy. Suddenly, I wanted to snatch back my words and run for the hills. The boyf returned from the bathroom. I tried to send him the pleading eyes smoke signal. Of course, she asked him to confirm what I’d said, and he backed me up while shaking his head at me with his What have you got us into?! expression.
Do you know what was so outrageous? When she expressed her doubts to this guy, he had the brass balls to tell her that she could call up the boyf and he’d vouch for him! Of course, she wasn’t going to call because the bluffer knows this. It’s a ruse. It’s also gaslighting. And if she had called, the boyf would have spared her two months of lies!
Anyway, aside from being Scarlet O’Hara with embarrassment at the whole situation, she thanked me for finally telling her the truth and explaiend what had been going on.
Even just a couple of these things are red flags!
I explained Future Faking, making outrageous statements, the busting up of boundaries, the crocodile tears, drip-feeding and more. She exclaimed in recognition after each one.
Here’s the thing: If you sit down and press rewind on your fast forwarded relationship or in fact any relationship and then watch it back, what do you see?
Imagine yourself like a CSI walking through the ‘relationship crime scene’: How does this person look? How do you look? What do you suddenly see clearly now that you didn’t register back then? If you can visualise the setting and remember the conversation, does what they said suddenly sound different now because you’re hearing it properly without the rose-tinted glasses and the fur coat of denial?
When we’re mystified by our relationship or even feel that something came out of leftfield and end up looking to the other person for answers, it’s important to remember that we possess most, if not all, of the information we need within ourselves. That’s if we are prepared to watch, listen, acknowledge, and process. This will save you looking for closure from someone when you can do it yourself.
If you missed things first time around, go back to ‘base’. Walk your way through your relationship and watch and listen now. When I play back my relationships, what’s very funny in retrospect is that the things that proved to be very annoying further on in the relationship, were evident very early on. I just wasn’t paying attention. You want to forgive yourself, learn to trust your own judgement, know what to look out for? Listen to yourself.
Your thoughts? What do you discover when you walk through your relationship?
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With my former assclownbf, what I noticed early on was his sharing of partial info or NO information. At the time I felt he just didnt know me well enough to trust and confide in him, so like a damn fool– I tried to lead by example. I was purposefully very honest and transparent about my past, my feelings for him, etc.BIG MISTAKE. First of all, I now think he was not all that interested in how I felt about things, and I revealed much too much in comparison to his tightly sealed inner private secrets!
P.S. Later found out he was seeing others. A real player!
Anne – yes that’s classic dodgy dating advice. “Open up and he will open up too”. “Lead by example”. “Nurture him, make him feel safe”. Rubbish. When you find yourself jumping through hoops , it’s time to jump right out of the relationship.
I’m glad he’s your ex.
What’s the “dodgy dating” advice for men? – Sit back, put your feet up, play with your balls (no, let her do that), talk shite, smile and let her do the rest?
Or is that the “non-dodgy” dating advice for men?!! 🙂
fearless,
Love it especially the part about get her to play with the balls, so true.
Too funny!
“When you find yourself jumping through hoops , it’s time to jump right out of the relationship.” – Golden line!
Something I noticed is that all of the info you share will be used to manipulate you in one way or another. I try to only share as much as the guy is sharing. As much as he questions, I prepare and ask my own questions and if I don’t feel it’s equal over time, then I don’t trust sharing any more than surface things. My ex set off a red flag by saying he “liked to be mysterious because if I knew everything about him I’d get bored”. That made me think ‘if I knew everything I might run screaming’. I wasn’t asking about his life to be entertained, I was asking so I knew what I was getting into and the more he tried to make a joke and a keep away game of it, the more immature, controlling, and dangerous he looked.
My ex set off a red flag by saying he “liked to be mysterious because if I knew everything about him I’d get bored”. – Hilarious!
Nikki, I think certainly with people who mean you no good *anyway*, they will find things to use against you. Even being open can be used against you as they may accuse you of smothering them with their openness. When someone wants to come up with every excuse under the sun, they will. You were trying to do the ‘due diligence’ part of the relationship and he was reluctant to participate, after all you would have discovered he was shady.
Hi Anne. I’ve experienced that whole opening myself up to encourage openness – as you discovered, if someone doesn’t want to be open, *nothing* will change that, especially when they have a lot to hide. It is good for us to be emotionally open but what I learned is that we must also take cues and signals to gauge whether we are putting ourselves at risk or throwing energy into a vacuum. Sharing partial or no info is a red flag anyway!
Natalie
Right on target again! They tell you who they are loud and clear, sometimes on the first date. For the edification of your readers, and for a laugh, I repeat some of the gems I’ve heard and, sadly, did not heed:
“I’m good at talking to girls”. “Let’s get married” (after 3 weeks). “I’m going to a concert with my ex”. “You I love with all my heart” (after blowing hot and then VERY VERY cold. “I can’t be in a relationship” (HELLO GRACE!). “I’ve slept with about30 women, not as many as people think as I have high standards” (he was only 28 by the way) and, of course, “I’m married” and “I’m living with someone”.
This wan’t all the same guy.
I do feel foolish when I look back and realise the glaring red flags were always there. But I’m also glad because I know the next man will tell me who he is, only this time I’ll get it!
Funny I had a guy tell me his “theories” about men in relationhips, how they were this and that and the other… later I realized he was really talking about himself! So anymore if a guys goes down that path, I definitely pay attention and switch the light to yellow (if it’s not there already!)
Agree Nikki – those conversations reveal more about them than others.
The recent A/C, and one other guy I dated in my 20’s, said to me, “I need somebody to be nice to me.”
Girls, if someone says THAT to you, tell them to get a hooker!
Grace,
Its funny I was just thinking about whether “I am good at talking to girls” was a red flag. You listed it as the first flag. My EUM said this much later and I was shocked to hear it come out of his mouth because most people described him as a bad talker to women because he just seem to sit around and keep to himself. That is what I always observed too.
What is funny is I had access to many friends that knew my EUM and I never asked any of them questions about him to find out information on him. I never suspected much plus we were not in a relationship so it wasn’t any of my business. Certain friends of his would share stuff about him and we would talk but it was never detective conversations. I think because he told me so much about himself I didn’t feel a need. I think many were oblivious to his ways anyways.
MH, he actually WAS very good at talking to women, well good at flirting. But, certainly, like your guy he was bragging about his relationships with women. Just goes to show that it’s an ego stroke for them. I’ve only just started to understand what Nat means by “ego stroke”. I did not have sex with my most recent AC but I now realise (after a period of NC) that I sure was stroking his ego! To be fair, he was stroking mine as well. But it wasn’t enough for me and it’s not something I feel compelled to pursue (anymore).
MH, well your ex had a very different perception of himself when it came to the talking to girls. Tad deluded maybe!
How funny Grace! The ‘all my heart’ one made me laugh because if that’s all his heart is must be very, very small LOL. You are indeed wise for next time round!
I can see a lot of the red flags now and really looking back, i was never soo happy, in fact, i was constantly misserable because I always felt left aside, felt like I wasn’t getting nothing but crumbs, and that was what I was getting, but I was just settleling for less, selling me short.
My problem now is that I don’t know trust myself now. I am afraid every man I am attracted too is a EUM. I am also acting like a EUM and I don’t want to be like that. I really want a relationship with a real gentleman.
I feel this exact same way after my last EUM. I’m still hurting and sad and in a lot of pain over him. I’m just hoping that by staying NC, I’ll be able to heal my heart by focusing on me and what I want to do with my life. I’m also hoping that by looking over the wreckage of this past (non)relationship, that I’ll be able to see what red flags I missed and boundaries that I need to put in place. And then, by putting in place strict boundaries that I won’t deviate from for anyone, I’ll be able to meet a really nice man and be in a healthy relationship with him, because all the ACs and EUMs will either be turned off by my boundaries or I will be able to recognize them and not give them the time of day anymore.
Learning, I’m sorry to hear of how much pain you are in. These relationships are devastating. Give yourself time and accept that it will hurt for a while but not forever. Stay absolutely focused on you and use the time to grieve the loss of the relationship and reconcile what you thought he and the relationship was with the reality. It will help you get to acceptance a lot easier. It’s the resistance and the denial that extends the pain. Do walk through your relationship and learn from what you discover.
Thank you so much, Natalie! I really have learned so much from your blog and your books. I have hope now that I will be out of this pain and in a positive, healthy relationship one day.
I think what you’re going through Allie is a bit of a natural stage. If you want to be with someone who is emotionally available, you have to be emotionally available and part of that is feeling your emotions and agreeing to trust yourself. Get to the heart of your beliefs and you will get to the heart of your fears. If you haven’t already, try my guide Get Out of Stuck.
Thank you soo much NML, I am working on those fears. I am looking inside myself to find the heart of my fears, that mostly I think is fear of rejection.
I am soo glad I found your blog, it’s being so helpfull and also to know that I am not alone in this ship.
Thanks A LOT
I consciously wrote out all the answers to these questions and its amazing how much I put up with and failed to nip in the bud right away, which could have prevented this ‘relationship’ from going further than it had to.
The promise to get married some day ( even though he was still not divorced yet….and never ended up even getting a divorce after a few years????)
The promises to build a life together and have kids after living together,
yet he could not even get a proper handle on his addictions, self-hatred and anger issues, and made little effort to improve himself.
It all ended with him still ‘separated’ but not yet divorced and failure to address the addiction problems and remain a lone victim of life.
Rachel2 – he was a fantasist. He probably wants to believe it but the moment that you expected him to deliver on those things, he’d have been backtracking the hell out of there. He was also making promises that he was not in a position to make. This is why I caution against getting involved with separated people, especially those who have been at it for a lengthy period of time. I’m just glad you’re out of the relationship!
For me, it was the constant insecurities (that he had), the WAY OVER REACTING to simple statements (A statement about the sun being too yellow would somehow anger him and he would act like it was really about him…..), the constant “parroting” of things I said (he would do a “me too” or wait a few hours and then say something I had said two hours earlier as though he just “suddenly thought of it”) and his very strange behavior of…. if I told him I liked something, he would immediately quit doing it. HUH? Like Anne, I tried to “lead by example” to make him feel safe about his “insecurities.” Whenever I tried to ask him why (he did whatever) I would either get a blank stare into space (like he didn’t hear what I said and didn’t process it) or it would be turned around and somehow made MY fault. He was the type of guy who can sink his hooks, and his the one with the problems and issues, but he was very good at making YOU look like the crazy one. But oh…… in public, he was very charming! In fact, a married man told me that I should hook up with this guy because he was “such a nice guy.” That’s the last time I take dating advice from ANY man!
JJ2 You know the trouble is that when we try to make someone feel safe about their insecurities, we’re assuming we have the power to do it because we love them. But if we don’t understand the basis for that insecurity, it’s like offering up the wrong solution or even putting a plaster/band aid over a gaping wound. Your ex was really a class act and what becomes evident from your description is that ‘act’ is the key word – he was play acting at a relationship,trying it on for size and doing and saying stuff for show, while at the same time being highly manipulative – anyone who will quit doing something you’ve expressed a liking for needs to be dropped like a hot potato. Very cruel behaviour.
As for the guy who recommended, the trouble there is that people recommend based on their own standards. They’re also taken in by show and the experience of someone as a friend is not the same as an experience of someone in a relationship.
when i walk through my 27 year marriage its fraught with red flags and glaring red alerts i just didnt see it . although i forgive myself for this now as i was only sixteen when i met him.; im now 46 and dumped for my troubles. the belittlilng the constant verbal savagery the lies the cheating (unkown to me until I found out after he left the marriage) the controlling the put downs the crossing of all boundaries. where to start first. thank god i got to this site. I truly think i would have had ended up with nervous breakdown as i gave 99 % of my time to this man and nothing was ever enough. i just couldnt figure out what i was doing wrong. H e was my first boyfriend and all ive ever known. But you know what I`ll make bloody sure it wont be all i ve ever known!!!! its been a year now since he waltzed off and I ve had to practically debrainwash myself and this site, thanks to you Natalie has helped me do it. Thankyou so much!!!!!!
You’re very welcome Sharon. Your ex was very sneaky and there will be all sorts of reasons you would not have been aware of the dangers – many of us as sixteen year olds were just not equipped with the knowledge of what is inappropriate. You will experience better and you have shed the dead weight of him and his lies. He probably thinks he could waltz back into your life if he wanted – he’ll be in for a short, sharp surprise because even if he has left, it is you now rejecting HIS behaviour. You’re wise to him now!
When I look back there were red flags early in the relationship that caused me to have anxiety. So going forward I know that feeling anxious can be a good sign that things aren’t right. However in the early stages of dating and relationships (even healthy ones) the future is still uncertain and even normal levels of uncertainty can make me feel anxious (unfortunately my nature).
My question is how do you differentiate from feeling anxiety due to red flags you are picking up on vs feeling anxiety due to your own issues?
Wish
I’ve had bad anxiety to, to the extent that I had to take medication. I think a lot of anxiety is because we don’t trust ourselves. We don’t trust ourselves to make the right decision (or any decision) and our confidence is so shaky that the smallest setback can knock us over. If we can’t trust ourselves, it’s bound to make us anxious. Because who CAN we trust?
If you feel you have a lot of issues it may be a good idea to work on them before dating. Don’t see it as a time of enforced loneliness and “punishment” in between relationships, it’s a time to discover what you like, what makes you tick, what you value, reconnect with friends and family, make new friends, discover new interests. A time to practise putting boundaries in place in more neutral situations – like work or with people who you know respect you. Yep, even people who love you can overstep a boundary unwittingly but can be very gently told that no, sorry, you can’t oblige.
I’ve not yet been able to put my newly-discovered boundaries in place in a dating situation but I think the difference between then and now is that this time I’m sure that I can spot the obvious signs of an EUM/AC. I would also wait longer before sex so I can spot the less obvious signs. And if he hides it so well that I don’t realise he’s an EUM/AC until later I know I can break it off and survive. Cos I have done it before.
More positively, I’m no longer attracted to the super good looking, confident players or the tragic poor-me types. They just don’t ring my bell anymore. I do really want someone open, consistent and kind, who is vocal about wanting a longterm relationship leading to marriage. I’m just not interested in anything less.
Yes, there is uncertainty even in healthy relationships but I don’t think it’s the anxiety we have been experiencing. And if he’s a good guy, the two of us would be stepping into the uncertainty together, supporting each other. It won’t be a case of one of us dragging the other down. You’ll feel like you are in the journey WITH someone, not on your own.
Anyway, I’ve rambled on too much. The key is yourself. Trust yourself, believe that you’re a special person who deserves to love and be loved, and the rest will follow.
Speaking of medication, the day I walked out of the relationship, I said to myself, “If I don’t leave right now, I will need anti-depressants.” No relationship is worth that. However, his hooks were sunk so deep into me that when my “walking out” didn’t “wake him up” to reality (as I had hoped), I found that I couldn’t let go. Took me nine long heartbreaking months to “wash that man right outa my hair” and my heart and soul.
Hi wish_I_found_this_sooner. Try my post on internal and external fear as this helps you work out whether you have something to be concerned about or understand where your anxiety is coming from.
thanks Grace and Natalie, your words and post are incredibly helpful!
When I think about the AC now, I realise he subtly bullied me into a relationship and then absolutely freaked when I finally met him there and was up for something real and calm, he then tried to create chaos, and was constantly anxious and annoyed that I would not play the pissy game, probably designed to orchestrate a bust-up or at least a very dramatic relationship so he could ‘feel’ something.
But there were so many signs of him being a dodgy pair of hands from the start: slept with lots of women, many of whom were in relationships, small lies about small things, off-hand comments like, ‘I will take from you whatever I can get’, ‘all my exes are crazy’, was sulky if sex was not on the boiler, grand promises about marriage and moving in then flip-outs that I was making the relationship go too fast: the classics! But you don’t know they’re classics at the time. Now it’s so clear. It’s even comical (one of my male friends who had been in a relationship like this told me it would all seem ‘foolish’ in six months time!).
In performance art it would be this ridiculous show in which a boy puts presents on a girl’s desk, pulls her pigtails, leaves cheeky notes, and then when she finally turns around and smiles, leaps back, sets his own hair on fire and does some random Karate moves and spins on his own, then finally takes some deep breaths and comes forward to push her to the ground, kick her, and runs away. It makes me laugh now – and not in a creepy, hurt way, a genuine way.
Anyway, back to my book in front of the TV. It’s a lovely night! (went on another date last night and had a guy ask me – now this is truly wonderful – whether we could sleep together to help each other get through heartache. Apart from the fact that I hadn’t mentioned anything about being heartbroken – I feel pretty bloody fine these days – it just wasn’t going to happen! I said, ‘Sorry, honey, I am no one’s stepping-stone. Find someone else.’ These people!
hahahahaha I love the performance art!!!! My ex-AC to a tee.
‘Sorry, honey, I am no one’s stepping-stone. Find someone else.’
Love it!
Elle, this was yet another one of your legendary funny comments. Although I loved the performance art, the story of the date had me chortling! What a dipstick! You are not an airbag!
@Elle – love the performance art analogy! So true – and yes we all know now that they are ‘classic’ moves, but before they were mind-boggling actions that we blamed ourselves for! It is indeed follish and ridiculous in hindsight.
I have a pretty weird weekend where i met two decent blokes (hurray!) on seperate nights, who were with completely EU women who were giving them the run around. One guy had been dumped three times in the same month! After an evening hanging out with me (platonically, but with lots of flirting) they both confessed that i had made them realise that being with a woman shouldn’t have to be such hard work, and have both let me know that they are now out of their unhealthy situations. So surreal!
I’m not sure if i’m emotionally available yet, but i do seem to be meeting a better calibre of man, even though their situations mean that i can’t really get involved with them. Progress perchance?
(went on another date last night and had a guy ask me – now this is truly wonderful – whether we could sleep together to help each other get through heartache.)
_________________________
WTF? 😐 What a dirtbag. That’s one of the weakest lines I’ve EVER heard. (He probably got away with that tired line with other women.)
Hooray for you, Elle!
I am still stunned by the dinner with Natalie’s friend. What an event!
Imagine her expecting a fun dinner, and then being on the receiving end of Natalie’s analysis, bolstered by standing facts about the AC. Incredible that Nat’s friend should have been lucky to find the truth, and the analysis of the truth, where she least expected it.
Well it certainly was a night to remember although thankfully we got the drama wrapped up in an hour. She’d been crying when we got there and crying all day before – her birthday. There was dancing and cake in the end!
Warning signs? Besides the hairpin on his bedroom floor that wasn’t mine? As someone else said, the anxiety, that feeling of unease was a big one. I kept telling myself that everything was fine, that he was a good guy who cared about me. He wasn’t. He fast-forwarded the relationship, wanted to get too serious way too soon — and pouted when I asked to go slower. He admitted to cheating on his ex-wife while they were married, but swore it would be different with me. It wasn’t. He’d make subtle little put-downs of me, and then deny that he’d said anything insulting, telling me that I was oversensitive. He was jealous when I’d go out to lunch, or shopping with girlfriends or my sister. He was smart, but he couldn’t stick with any job or schooling. Always looking for something better. He was charming to other people and then made insulting remarks about them behind their backs. He was convinced he knew more than anyone else about just about everything. He always had to one-up people in conversation. He was healthy and well into his twenties, and still accepting financial help from his parents. He spent little time with his children, and considered them a bother. (This is not one guy, by the way.)
Wow Wendy! I think what you can take from this is to watch and listen. These are all very poor characteristics and behaviours but they’re under a veneer of performance and talking the talk. However your unease said more than any of these things – we don’t feel uneasy for no reason at all.
I really like the performance art visual!!! I will giggle about that for awhile.
When I look back now I see all the red flags blowing in the wind.
I’ll bet! I hope you’re keeping well 🙂
Thank you Nat, that was so poignant. Here are mine in order from one guy , they are big fat glaring red flags that I noted but ignored and continued falling in love. With hindsight and good wisedom from here, I was the bigger fool ;
actually I live with my ex, we are platonic, so its ok for me to date you.
you cant ring me in the evenings as shes still jealous.
you cant ring me at the weekend as I cant get a signal.
I work away so cant always answer the phone during the day.
I wish I’d met you 10 years ago.
Actually my name is not David it’s Ed !!!!! so can you call me Ed now.
Actually the truth is that sometimes I’m not sure what her and mine relationship status is.
You and I have met at the wrong time in my life.
I stay with her because it costs me nothing to live here, she does all the cooking and everything, theres no feelings from me to her.
I dont know what she thinks our relationship status is but she’s soft on me, we are platonic though and I sleep in the other room.
Actually we share a bed really but we are platonic.
She is surprisingly affectionate.
Oh dear, I shouldnt have told you that as it has upset you, she is not affectionate and I do sleep on the sofa really.
I have a lot of love for you but want to feel free to see whom I like, I wont, but I want the feeling.
Seeing as we’re drifting these days (me and him) I’d like us to be friends, I dont mind if we have sex occasionally but obvously thats up to you.
and after NC for 3 months, this text out of the blue ” actually I hate you now and if I meet you in the street I will walk past you”.
My summary ………… I should have bailed after the first big fat red flag. But also ”I am not that woman anymore”.
Thanks to Nat and all of you.
aw this story is so terrible, i’m sorry!!!! (but i love your narration technique !!! like a melancholy poem)
that is crazy but it sounds familiar. good luck to you. you deserve much much better. sometimes its not easy to see it or get out.
What a dorky text he sent – I know it must have been hurtful to receive, but it’s actually really dorky, and the most transparent act of childish frustration and self-hatred there is. It’s shameful! Anyway, you sound well rid of him.
Jaysus Kim, each time you write about this guy, I shake my head at what a class act he is. The trouble with him is that he’s so outrageous that it makes you almost second guess yourself. He is a major, major creep. Cold, using, manipulative and the list goes on. That text is deplorable!
I know, its 6 months NC now so thank you thank you thank you again. My best friend says that with Ed its not about red flags its about bright red bunting spanning the width of England with each flag being the size of a king-size duvet !!
Elle! Your performance art comparison made me LOL! These men are literally retarded and if only we could go back in time/see a film of their behaviour we’d be horrified we even considered them. I’ve always found listing particularly helpful – they are especially good to draw up when you’re angry. These ate some highlight from one I wrote about my last EUM:
Balding
Fat
Shoulder hair
Bloated
‘Tummy lightening’ (what he said when his stomach gurgled – uuurgh)
Weird sex face of death
Those boxers
General awful ‘flirting’
Annoying singy thing he did and creepily childish laugh
Zero good stories as it goes. In fact pretty certain I did most of the talking. Even on books! Really not that fun or funny or even interested
Probably has major girl issues from being at all boys school
Emotionally is massive overgrown child like all his loser friends.
Pretends to romance – but zero evidence of even basic manners!
Single at thirty whatever
Living in tiny room that could be a teenage boys bedroom. With weirdly feminine bedding.
Has loads of ‘his name’ based stuff. Ego central! Weird. Probably refers to himself in the third person.
No home, car clearly borrowed.
Hangs out with a bunch of similarly pathetic childish losers who are single, spend whole time getting wasted and making pricks of themselves and for some reason rating a bunch of horrible cunty-as girls
In summary: Is a fat bloated self obsessed childish emotionally retarded cunt of death who you should avoid at all costs and deep down (if he wasn’t fucking with your mind by avoiding you) would give you the massive terrifying creeps.
I love looking over this list! Makes me remember the reality, not the fucked up, concocted non reality I have somehow turned it into. 🙂
West End Girl, I had no idea that there was such a thing as shoulder hair! Nothing about this guy says solid, stable, ready for a bonafide committed relationship, especially his living situation and his friends and of course his lack of emotional resources. Keeping that list will keep your feet very firmly in reality!
Only just read this, two montha after you wrote it – you literally made me laugh out loud. LOVE it! Brilliant.
Ps sorry I swear a lot. But ACs/EUMs bring that out! 🙂
I love this bit of your list………….
”Living in tiny room that could be a teenage boys bedroom. With weirdly feminine bedding.” That is so f***ing funny, but you’re gonna love this one of mine (Ed again Nat) ready
”I’d love it if I lay down and you sprinkled talcum powder on my bottom and rub it in’.
I KID YOU NOT ……… should we do a post of their infantile freakishness, I think its a trend we have fallen upon.
“Those ‘plans’ they waxed lyrical about – list them as you recall them. Exactly how many of them materialised?”
None. He would say things like, “we should do this or that” and not follow through, excuse after excuse until he started repeating the same excuse he had used before but forgot he had used (and I had already refuted).
Also, I had this “feeling” that he didn’t “get things.” I felt like I constantly had to “justify” or “explain” myself to him. He didn’t bully me into that, it was just a “feeling.” Funny thing, he later accused ME of that, he said that *I* didn’t get things and HE had to “explain” them to me. Nope, it was the other way around. He accused me of the bad behavior that HE was showing. I wonder now if he had “collected” all the things previous girlfriends said about him, and did a subconscious thing of “accuse her before she accuses me…..”
He would also SWEAR he told me things he didn’t, and then deny saying things he DID say. (This is the thing of trying to make you crazy and question your own sanity so he comes out looking good!)
Also, he was a “drip feeder” in that he talked in…. what I call…. “high level BS.” By “high level,” I don’t mean big words, etc. He would mention things so vaguely that it wasn’t enough information to further question. I thought that I had a finely tuned radar for this BS, but apparently my radar developed a faulty circuit while I was with him! Upon getting a question, he would answer in as few words as possible, with no details. Gotta fix the faulty circuit on my “radar.”
Oh, I got more, but I had better not say.
JJ2, a few years ago I had an unpleasant experience with a stalker who definitely was a full blown narcissist. Anything she was accused of, she then accused me or whoever else she was targeting of. There is actually a term for it which eludes me now, but basically, it’s quite an abusive, manipulative tactic and the sign of a dangerous person. You cannot win with someone like this. The denying stuff is also major red flag alert as is the dripfeeding. It’s mentally exhausting to be around someone like this. You literally have to run psychological rings around them to back them into a corner and even then, they may become very hostile.
Months ago, I had a reader tell me how her ex had emailed her saying that he wanted to get back together. When she replied one hour later, he actually denied the email.
I’d say your radar is on high now!
Hi Natalie, I think you were talking about projection when someone accuses you of being what they are or doing what they do.
A classic tactic of narcissists and those with tendencies..
My former AC did that to me. He called me narcissistic and paranoid when he was both of those things and so so many more there isn’t enough space on this blog.
Four weeks NC today! I feel great! I can’t thank you enough, Natalie. 🙂
Keep going little nickle – soon you’ll be a big nickle!! Four months NC for me! The ties are loosening off… and I have had no thought of contacting him since the London debacle (remember that?… oooops!). And that is real progress for me!
Mine told me:
“you are the love of my life” ! (Pah! Really?!! Hate to see what he’d do if he didn’t like me!)
“I wish I had honesty in my life, like you do” (I said, well be honest with people then, it’s not rocket science, what are you a man or a mouse? – squeak, squeak!)
I had friends tell me the usual thing… you need to dump him…kick him to the kerb… and it all seemed too easy said for them sitting in their “smug” marriages!…and Nat’s NC seems so brutal at first…so uncompromising… it’s hard advice to hear and to take… it had me weeping like a bairn having its best toy taken away… but also has you knowing… that there can be no compromise…. and here, finally, is someone who understands and who, with that understanding, will give it to you with both barrels. Hardest but best advice I have ever had about anything.
No surrender!
Thank you, Fearless, for the words of encouragement! A year ago if someone told me I would cut my AC off and not care what he’s doing, where he’s going, or who he’s doing whatever with, I would have laughed for two hours straight. I had people say the same to me about kicking him to the curb, but I still had the emotional cataracts on my eyes.
Then, my “ENOUGH” moment came. He had told me his last lie. It was almost like I went from full speed ahead train to a complete and instant stop. This blog is a huge part of that. It just oozes wisdom and understanding from Natalie and all who participate here like you. 🙂
Good for you on four months NC! I can’t wait till I can say the same!
Little Nickle
Natalie, I had a stalker say “I see her driving by my work everyday looking for me, I had to call the cops on her.”, after a guy friend of mine told him to stay away from me. Totally fabricated. He followed me around in a really creepy way and would rage at me when I wouldn’t talk to him.
Lots of red flags and I wasn’t happy. I was confused, felt betrayed, was hurt and worried all the time. UUGGHHH. I wasted four years. It is so clear now, I cannot believe I stayed with him. What the hell was wrong with me? Some of the red flags came flying at my face full on, but he always minimized them and made me doubt myself by saying I was jealous, stupid, crazy, loser, etc…..UUUUGGHH , I was being stupid. I shouldn’t say this but it is no wonder he had no respect for me. I gave him free reign. I am so sick of these men, they are everywhere!
Oh yeah, I have been NC for six months, no new dates, nothing then today I get two new phone numbers. One guy asked me to dinner tonight and I declined saying I was busy. I am busy on my couch stuffing cookies and crap into my mouth. I always had a crush on this guy and he is so beautiful. It scares the crap out of me! I want get back out there but am terrified.
@Jenny
Would it help to have an informal date? Instead of dinner and drinks why not suggest having lunch instead – a during the day date. I get terrified too, it’s a normal reaction. Don’t hide (and I should take my own advice!)
I agree, Leigh. Jennyc, why not suggest something else other then dinner, something more casual and less intense – you could say you don’t really feel like doinf a ‘dinner date’ juts now, but what about…..then suggest doing something else – whatever you would like to do… go see a show, go visit something or somewhere and take a walk round – stop for a coffee or a drink, then home in time for tea! A guy who is looking to spend a bit of time with you will be fine with another suggestion.
Good luck.
That’s interesting Jennynic “I want get back out there but am terrified” Maybe that is just your gut telling you that you are not ready. What’s wrong with that? If the guy is of interest, do you think you’d be able to go out for dinner, take it slow and get to know him well first? Or are you fearful that old patterns would resurface and you’d rush headlong into something potentially unhealthy? Because, if it is the latter, maybe you just aren’t ready yet. I feel the same way and have been focusing on putting my energy into my friends and interests instead of dating. I figure it will come when I am ready for it, and I am getting there. For the first time, I have taken a good hard look at all the relationships in my life – with family, friends and romances and seen a pattern that runs central to all of them. So, I withdrew for a while to figure it all out and try to understand why I was doing what I was doing and only now do I feel like I have an understanding of my patterns and so the idea of a new relationship is no longer terrifying. Do you think you are working through your patterns maybe?
Done as dinner, I’d really be interested to hear about how you are evaluating your other relationships, especially with family. I came out of an abusive relationship earlier in the year and come from a dysfunctional family. I am currently evaluating my relationship with them, and am just considering cutting them off, as I’m not sure how good for my mental health they are. Reading Nat’s blogs has really helped in getting over my ex, I wish there was some information on dealing with family members too!
Jennynic, one of the valuable things I have learned is that when someone wants to minimise your concerns, it’s because they should say or do things that provide evidence or give you confidence in them/the situation. When someone minimises your concerns by invalidating them, that is a totally different, red flag action.
I’m glad you declined, even it it was due to fear.
I think that this guy should have given you more notice for a date. Why does he think you are so available, or is this just his way?
Allison, I have to agree with you on this. Has anyone on here read The Rules? What are people’s thoughts on that?
THE RULES. That book came out in the 90’s. I think it’s BS, but some people swear by it. The stuff in THE RULES, to me, is manipulation and game playing (which I don’t like to do), but some people say it WORKS!
I also recommend Men Who Love Bitches, it has wonderful guidelines for respecting yourself and establishing boundaries.
If we are too available, they will lose interest and respect quickly- I think this applies to every area though.
Re The Rules and MWLB – I used these books when I was trying to turn round the relationship with one of my ex EUMs. They worked insofar as they elicited a chase response from him, but very soon he started blowing cold again. They did help me rein myself in – I didn’t humiliate myself by calling and texting a lot but he was still an EUM. All these books did was help me to extend the relationship for a few more miserable months and fool myself into thinking I had some kind of control.
Some of the suggestions were plain daft, like serving a man jellybeans for dinner so he doesn’t expect you to cook. The stuff on self esteem is true enough but I’m not sure the readers get that bit and focus on the gameplaying. It’s just easier and I think we are kinda desperate once we are the stage of reading these books. The self-esteem chapters just go over our heads.
In the end I just had to finish it and cut contact
“He’s Just Not that Into You” was more helpful – it’s not rocket science but it does bear repeating that it’s kinda obvious when a man is serious about you. Also, I quite like “It’s called a breakup because it’s broken”. However, at the time it annoyed be as I just didn’t want to hear there was no hope!
Love that book!!!! I bought it in June (about the same time I found this website) as I was finally waking up to my doormat status and began seeking corrective advice. This book offers a big kick in the butt to us sentimental Fallback Girls, who believe it is our duty to Love and Love and Love, meanwhile driving the guy Away Away Away.
I haven’t read this book but I looked at the ‘snippet view’ on Amazon.
Seems to be that basically the “bitches” are women with a strong sense of their own worth; they place a high value on themselves and do not feel the need to jump through hoops to impress a man or morph into what they think his preference would be. I think Grace is right though, that many women readers will miss the point about having high self-esteem and just try to “play the game”, which essentially amounts to trying to pretend that they have high self esteem – but they fail cos they can’t carry it off consistently… the “bitch” though ain’t kidding on! – she believes she is “enough” and he can take it or leave it – the “nice girl” doesn’t believe she is “enough” and relies on his validation.
So I think the general, useful, part of the message is the same as we read here… a message I am afraid to say that I am just beginning to understand for the first time in my life. Before coming on here I too would have read that book in terms of “playing a game”, “playing hard to get” – “treat them mean and keep them keen” and all of that – and I hate “games” in relationships so I would not play them, but now I get the point:
our actions in our relationships with men are driven by the value that we place on ourselves.
So I see now that it is way more important to consider what I think of me – and not focus on what he thinks, or might think, of me.
This all became clear by reading Nat’s stuff on seeking validation from them – this is what keeps us hooked and keeps us going back for more. I find NC pretty easy when I ignore what value I imagine he places on me and keep focused on what value I place on me.
Many years ago now a male friend of mine once said that if there’s one single thing that makes a woman attractive it is ‘confidence’.
A confident woman does not tolerate less than she knows she deserves and the guy she is with knows that she won’t. And that is the difference. And the more we tolerate less the more of less we get and the less confident we become…
I once read this: Don’t waste your time on a man who wouldn’t waste his time on you.
Did I listen?? No, I did not! But I am listening now!
I particularly like the part I read in that book which says that when the man wants to get out of the relationship the “nice girl” will beg, cry and somehow try to convince him to stay – the “bitch” will help him pack!
(knowing that she does not want to be with someone who does not want to be with her)
Allison, I ran into him while I was surfing (california). I have seen him around for a few years but never had much more than small talk. He said we should exchange numbers and surf together sometime. I liked that idea, as it wouldn’t be like a date really but would give us chance to get to know each other without the pressure of a date. He left me a message a few hours later asking me if I wanted to get dinner with him. I was okay with surfing together, but the intimacy of dinner and deliberate conversation scared me. Part of it is because I have always had a crush on this guy and am afraid I will come off desperate or something. It sucks but if I am really honest with myself, I am feeling insecure. The ex AC used to always tell me that people didn’t like me. I know it wasn’t true but it affected me and it made me feel awkward and off balance. The layers of damage to my soul from the AC I was with for four years slowly reveal themselves as other layers heal. I am seeing that maybe I just haven’t healed enough yet.
Wow!
Jenny I am so sorry it was such a destructive relationship.
I think if you’re not ready, then you’re not ready and should take time for yourself. At some point you will come to realize that not all men are AC’s and will be able to trust and make wise decisions. I hope it comes soon for you.
Grace- I read MWLB after the breakup. How it helped me, is that it made realize I was being a doormat and needed to put myself first. I recognized that I needed to enhance my own life with more interests and friends, and not be so available-As I stated earlier, I think this applies to all areas. I gained much from the reading, funny how we saw it in different ways.
Allison
Yep, it’s good to be your own person and I agree we often act like doormats. I just don’t think we should get the idea that behaving in certain ways would turn our frogs into princes. It won’t. They will still be frogs. You might pique their interest or curiosity for a bit but you certainly won’t get love, care and respect from them. It’s just not in their nature.
“Non-dates.” I think I invented that. I kind of fell into doing that in the 90’s. (I even made a web site about it! But I don’t have it any more.) I start “hanging out” with a guy on a “non-date.” Because it’s “not a date,” well, I (feel that) cannot push “boundaries.” Why? Well, it’s “not a date.” What’s the point? At that point, no “relationship” is defined. BUT! By the time I’ve had X number of “non-dates” with the same guy, then you have to “acknowledge” a “relationship.” By that time, the boundaries have already been crossed and it’s too late to “renegotiate.”
Ok, I have to stop doing “non-dates.”
JJ2, you have a point there. It sorta is like starting out on the premise of not expecting much from him, which could backfire down the road, when you start expecting more. The rules have been established in way already. If it is a guy with integrity, having a talk about shifting expectations as it progresses would probably work and also a way to find out if you are on the same page. If he starts to get shifty, then the non dates were all he was looking for. Dating can be so complicated. I wish I could have a light view of it and approach it with a light heart and didn’t take myself and everything so seriously. I am already worrying and nothing has even happened yet. Red flag on my own behaviour. More work to do!
Grace,
I totally agree! When I read the book, I didn’t have the ex or any AC in mind. This was an epiphany relationship for me, and I wanted to be certain that I changed and recognized unhealthy behaviors on both sides.
I no longer think people will change and move on in a healthy fashion. I do not have the time or patience for poor behavior. Life is too short
This post reminds me a lot of the fable about the scorpion and the frog. The scorpion asks the frog to carry him across the water, but the frog is afraid to be stung and says no. The scorpion promises the frog that he won’t sting her, so she eventually agrees to carry him across. Mid-way across the river, the scorpion stings the frog. Horrified and hurt, the frog asks why the scorpion did that – now they will both drown. And the scorpion replies, I cannot help it. It is my nature.
I began to use this fable when thinking about the guy I had been involved with, I kept trying to understand why he did what he had, why he’d been such an opportunist and been hurtful even when I explained how I was feeling. Eventually, I came to see – and accept that he was just following his nature. It wasn’t even personal, it was just what/who he was. Like the scorpion – you know what it is, so if you choose to engage, in all likelihood you will be stung. That is how I see that relationship.
Nat’s post is also brilliant because it can apply to any relationship. I’ve been thinking about some of my relationships that felt really one sided. Where a friend would take and take and take, and allude to a future activity or whatever but it would never materialize. And the other day, I realized that people do what works for them. So, if my friend could get by doing the bare minimum to maintain a friendship, knowing I’d put in all the effort and would and had always been there whenever was convenient for her, well, why should she put more effort into it? Ditto the romantic relationship. It worked for him – to get the ego boost, shoulder to cry on. Initially I was happy to do so because I thought I was being supportive and helpful. So why should he put in more? Eventually, I said I wasn’t happy and needed more? So what? He was content, he was getting what he wanted, and in his view, if I were still sticking around, then I too must be getting something out of it. So I guess, we choose what we give and receive from people. It’s not up to them to give, but up to us to walk away from any relationship that is only working for them and not for us. I’d never thought of relationships in that light before, but all the signs are there from the get as Nat points out.
Absolutely! I totally agree with what you say it’s basic common sense. I think we don’t apply enough common sense to these situations.
Also, what struck me about your post is you apply this to women friends as well. I’ve been in that situation too, a few times. One of my previous girlfriends has the same tendencies as the Ac’s I’ve been involved with. Especially the not working for the friendship part and the ignoring of communications. It used to hurt me a lot but now I realise that the more effort I made meant the less she made – same goes with the Ac’s.
It tells me a lot about my character – being a yes girl, being a nice girl and accepting. I’ve made excuses for too many people who have acted dismally (they were on the take). But I am in part responsible because I should have called a halt to it.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing!
Yes – exactly Leigh. There is a point where you look around and realize that there are a lot of people around you who are “on the take” and so at that point the realization hits you that the common denominator in all those relationships is you! I have been thinking about all relationships not just romantic ones because I think that is the key to why the patterns keep repeating. We think we only have bad luck in romance, but we look around and realize that we have a number of relationships that make us feel bad. Like you, I have always tried to be a pleaser, a good supportive friend, helpful, I was always the dear abby in school, perfectionist, set terribly high standards for myself – and others I hate to admit. So I realized that I’ve pursued these relationships as a way to validate myself – but in the end, I ended up miserable and barely able to figure out where others ended and I began. That is what I am working on now, and I think it cannot help but to extend to all relationships in life.
@ Done as Dinner.
I think for probably you and I we have come to stark realisations that have made us sit up and take notice of who we are and how we conducted our lives up until this point.
I look back and went through a getting rid of process with school friends that were on the take – that was years ago – and then I slipped back into old patterns of behaviour.
All this has been highlighted to me during the course of this year. Every situation with girlfriends represented either them on the take or them being nasty control freaks. My reaction for one of these ladies was to ask her to leave my house after an over extended stay. I was determined to be true to myself and be nice about it. The second girlfriend was/is passive aggressive – everything had to be her way, she was right about everything and I recall conversations with her where she was downright nasty. I never confronted her on it. The last straw was a holiday we took together. Her whole personality had such a detrimental effect on my well being – that, coupled with the fact that I got to meet my ex AC during this holiday compounded the feelings I had when I saw that he was the same.
I had a major meltdown inside when I realised I had played a huge part in letting me invite people into my life that were on the take.
I have gone NC with her, no explanations. I’ve gone NC with him too.
The energy that used to get directed to these people is now directed to me. From my past early life – I now know what has affected the person I am. It’s up to me to make sure my boundaries never get busted, again.
Now is my time in life where I take responsibility for learning how to say NO and sticking to it!
Yes Leigh – I agree with what you are saying about enacting boundaries into existing relationships where you hadn’t done so in the past and if those individuals cannot accept it (the renegotiation – then it’s as you say, “into the rubbish heap they go.” That is exactly what I had been trying to get at in my post, that you take the time to explain what you are doing and why, and if they just laugh it off and carry on with the behaviour, then it is time for you to walk away – which often means NC. I’ve been thinking a lot about what you said about your friends sharing similar characteristics as your AC. You know that was such an eye opener for me because I realized that one of my friends was basically the female equivalent to the ex. like they were opposite sides of the same coin. Thank you for making that observation!
Leigh, your words about friendship are so true. The more effort I made, the less the AC ex-friend made. I would pull away in the past because of the hurt, and he would barrage me with texts and emails. I would resist, and he would keep on. But as soon as I responded, nothing from him. Not one word. It’s like they sit back and laugh at us like we are little mice running to the cat hoping it will like us.
I too have looked inward quite a bit to see what I did to encourage the poor treatment. I blame myself for training people how to treat me. No more.
Excellent comment done as dinner. What you are talking about here is the fundamentals of human behaviour and relationships. As you pointed out, there is absolutely no impetus for someone to abide by your boundaries, when you won’t abide by your own boundaries. If someone knows they can give crumbs, that’s what they’ll do AND they’ll decide that the crumbs are a loaf!
Boundaries! Yes! Nat and Leigh, the other thing I have discovered about boundaries and relationships you already have in your life, is that in most cases, you cannot go back and renegotiate. In their minds, the terms of the relationship were set when you (I) accepted whatever behaviour. If it were good enough then, then it is good enough now – I think that is how their thinking goes, and also they are getting what they want so they see no reason to stay, and when you try to renegotiate it, they don’t take you seriously because you have stuck around for so long putting up with their crap. Only people who truly care about you can have that discussion and you can make a mutual agreement to work on things. But the rest, I think you just have to let go and take it as a lesson learned when setting out to develop the next relationship.
sorry that should have read – they see no reason to change, because they are convinced you are going to stay, because you always have.
I know exactly what you mean about renegotiation of boundaries. In some respects that’s completely right.
But I’ve looked at this in the past wrongly. Boundaries CAN be renegotiated in our situation. Not that they will be accepted, because as you say “they are convinced you are going to stay, because you always have.”
When we try to renegotiate our boundaries I think it’s a case of renegotiating them with ourselves and accepting them and putting them into practice. If the others in our lives cannot accept that, then to the rubbish heap they go, instantly.
Boundaries are for us, always. It doesn’t matter if the other people involved in our lives are a certain way. The boundaries we set for ourselves are non-neg. When we start to compromise that by being yes girls and accepting of every situation it means that we fear a lot of things. Maybe it’s fear of rejection, fear of being alone, fear as not being seen as the nice girl.
In the end, so what if these people have a different take on who we are than what we actually are because of our set boundaries. Plenty of people out there that will accept us for who we are boundaries included – these are the people that are good for us and we in turn, are good for them.
What we’ve been through although very painful is truly a release and a path to “self actualisation”
Hang in there! 🙂
Yep!! The only re-negotiating mine will ever take seriously from me is NC. I waved around a ‘rubber sword’ for years – and the only person I was kidding was me! And once we reach the point of NC, they can wave around all the red flags they like – whatever they’re selling, you’re not buying. No Contact is the key to the door. The more I stick with it, the more convinced I become.
If I got right back to the start – he was charming, he was kind and he was very complimentary. His characteristics included having determination and being honest about his situation and himself.
One of the things that he told me a few times has stuck in my mind: “Women end up running away from me.” I listened to that but still I carried on with it. I wasn’t interested in this man at first but he pursued me relentlessly saying: “The wait was worth it.”
As we progressed he would say things about his wife that made me cringe. He said other thing about his ex-wife that made me cringe, too.
I recall many times listening to my inner logic saying: “If he’s like this with the two most important relationships in his life he will be the same with me.” I can’t at the moment figure out why I hung around waiting for the same treatment that he’d dished out to these women.
I had major red flags from day one. Even when we went on holiday together and he was on the phone to his wife – he signalled to me to sit and cuddle him whilst he had a conversation with her. I found this disgusting and walked out of the apartment.
He was a constant manipulator and I constantly fought it inside myself. My reactions were of shock every time. I didn’t want to believe humans could be this way.
My heart went out to his wife. How she had been raped and abused by others and was confused over her sexual orientation. I had many conversations with him over it. I looked at how he treated her. He threw her out of the house many times. I remember crying once when he told me as I thought to myself: “If he can do this to a woman he says he loves, he will do it to me.”
Sure he has some good qualities. But his bad qualities and his need to control at any cost cause a lot of damage.
I cringe at my behaviour, my reactions and my acceptance of a situation that belittled me. And I realise that I knew it all about this man, I just didn’t realise it about myself.
In hindsight and as I am today I would have dumped his sorry arse the moment he told me he threw his wife out on her birthday.
I’ve had many ah-ha moments and I see the similarities between him and my ex husband, but now I have got rid of both from my life I don’t need to dwell or obsess, my time is too precious to waste on these men.
I didn’t think of him once yesterday – I am so lucky to be out of it because I realise now it’s not the end of the world! I am actually enjoying myself with no stress, crying, obsessing or anxiety. How cool is that!
Leigh, this is an incredibly despicable man. Some of the things you said about him made my stomach turn. I’m relieved you’re out of this situation. No matter how he came across to you in the beginning, every last thing he said or did here is not the behaviour of someone who is relationship worthy or who genuinely possesses the qualities and characteristics that you thought he did.
Thanks Nat, I’m really glad I’m out of this situation, too! He really doesn’t possess qualities that I thought he did. That became very apparent as time went on.
As I keep saying – hindsight is a wonderful gift. This involvement has taught me a lot about myself, which in itself has been a blessing.
Ughhh, I am so angry that my english is poor and I can’t write. But I am here, in back, reading all your posts and trying to survive after my story. I have so much pain. Thank you for beeing here! At least I can feel alone no more with you all. For now, you are my family and my home.
He took me everything in 7 years and now is having a baby with the woman he cheat behaind my back, joking at me, making me fool and stupid and telling me that thanks to this woman he found happiness and he is another man. Hope I can go on with my life, bc now I have to take everything from zero. Everything: no money, house, no job and my mom and sister are in States. We are not so close and I am soooo alone. I am afraid I will not make it.
Oana, I am sorry you are in so much pain. My heart goes out to you. The most powerful advice I could give you is that this is the PERFECT opportunity for you to learn how to love yourself. Not loving yourself enough is what enabled you to be with your ex for that long and it’s what makes his cruel comments to you hurt so much.
You can find some comfort outside yourself, but the majority of it will have to come from inside you. The more you look outside yourself, the more helpless you feel.
Resolve to rise above this. You are better than someone who is capable of saying such awful things. You are luckier than the woman who is stuck with this jerk as the father of her child! You have many opportunities around you that you are just not seeing at this point.
I wish you healing and support and I’ll bet you anything you can come out of this a stronger, happier person. Hugs to you!
Oana
Your english is fine. Don’t let this person into your life anymore. Don’t let him say say horrid things to you. I’ve been in another country in an abusive relationship and when I came to London I knew nobody here. I was very lonely. I have rebuilt my life and am happier than I have ever been. Now he’s gone, think about yourself and take care of yourself. It’s not going to be easy but you can do it.
Oana,
Please stay strong, I know it is hard! I had a friend, who was with her boyfriend for 5 years, he unexpectedly dumped her for a girl from China, married her and moved with her to China!!! My friend was very depressed for few months, but trust me she pulled herself from this situation, and two years later got married to a lovely guy. Please try to avoid your ex, we are here for you, if you need to talk…(((Hugs)))
Ah Oana, my heart goes out to you. I agree with others comments including not worrying re your English.
You *will* survive this. You will come back bigger, better, stronger, and with someone who is truly worthy of your love.
I’ve seen your situ only too many times. In time you come to realise that these dipsticks inadvertently set you free to be with someone far better. I had to start over twice in the space of a couple of years. Thankfully I stuck it out and nearly ten years on, I have created my on life on my own terms from scratch here in London.
It’s going to hurt for a while. I won’t kid you but actually taking the actions to start putting your life back together are healing in their own way. I know it’s daunting but take it a day at a time so you don’t get overwhelmed.
As for your ex and her – he’s talking out of his bum. Good luck to the both of them. She has a world of problems ahead of her and it’s better to be well shot of him. He’s someone else’s problem now. Don’t communicate with him and distance yourself from this situation – you need you now like you’ve never needed you before. Let the hurt and anger fuel you to make a life for yourself. Keep the faith, read this site, lean on anyone you can, and start rebuilding your life. (((hugs)))
This website changed my life.
If it wasn’t for what I learned from you, Nat, and from all the other wise, compassionate, supportive women in the old forum, I’d still be limping along with the exAssclown. He epitomized the Return of the Childhood Sweetheart (an earlier post) and all of the ridiculous blindness and future faking and projecting that went along with that.
What an asshole. I also like lists, so here’s another:
-tracked me down after 30+ years and it was clear from the first email he was trying to start something, which I initially found laughable
-was dropping little hints about marriage at 1 week!
-obfuscated like crazy when it came to explaining how he and his LD-gf of over 4 years were over. When and how that happened were like shifting sands of the Sahara.
-insane rages, scary temper, had a hell of a time controlling his overwhelming jealousy, anxiety and had a hair trigger for drama, which he would then inflict upon ME and blame me for with a rage that was truly frightening and very confusing (a common theme here, sadly)
-would blow up, then cut off all means of communication for hours, then act as if nothing had happened, while I had been crying the whole time
-could never say he was sorry for anything. Once.
-promised me the moon and wove the most incredible stories about the lives we would have and how our children would get along, blah, blah, blah.
The problem with all this was easily I fell for it. And how intensely I hung in there for, luckily, only for about 3 months. I kept making excuses for his behavior, how damaged he was. All his sad band camp stories about how emotionally ruined he was because of all the horrendous things that had happened to him — well, I was determined to make up for all that, which is totally insane now, looking back.
What I now understand is that I had a drive that overshadowed everything, my judgment, my logic, my ability to stand back and see him and his actions clearly: I was desperate to be loved. And he seemed like he was going to be the man, given all the over the top promises he was making, which no one else ever had. I thought I had found the love of my life!
I am incredulous now that I ever thought that. Absolutely amazed. I gave away the store. And the store was me! I made this destructive, completely irrational exchange with the most inappropriate partner I have ever chosen.
And of course, he dumped me in the end, when I expected him, naturally, to fulfill his promises, which he was incapable of doing. I can relate to all the attempts outlined above at inflaming conflict, them trying to make you run or break up first, them spinning your head around so you can’t tell which side is up. He was the craziest person I have ever been with, by miles and miles.
So afterwards, I had to ask myself: how COULD I ever have let this happen? And that’s when I had to be honest with myself about the desperation, trace it all the way down to its predictable, little roots. And that uncomfortable path was the beginnings of healing and freedom.
I’ve been single for a year now, focused on taking care of my family, taking care of myself and having fun, nourishing the things that work. I am so much happier. So much clearer. So much stronger.
The only thing I can’t shake is, he actually played me, because he kept the other woman on the back burner and then went straight back to her after he dumped me. She knows nothing about me and I know he probably treats her the same way. I keep thinking it’s my responsibility to save her from future pain by telling her about what happened between he and I and yet, there’s no way to do that without causing a big shit storm. And I’m scared he’s capable of violence. But I don’t know why I can’t let that part go. Perhaps I’m projecting too much of myself onto her, imagining that she’s in the same pain, being screwed over, can’t seem to get out of the sticky mess, and I feel like by helping keep this a secret, I’m perpetuating her misery.
Ah, sorry this is so long!
At any rate, I’ve learned so much and have come so far. I look forward to finally moving on from this someday and hopefully creating a healthy, calm relationship that works. Thanks again for everything, Ladies!
Hi, thank you for sharing your story, I identified with a lot of your story. I know what you mean about being ‘played’ , and, like you I’m left feeling ‘played’ and its a miserable way to feel. Its like being used and conned or robbed of something, its awful. And like you I’m wishing I could tell his new woman and his ex about the way he treated me. But, I think I just want to swap stories with them so we can mutually agree that he’s a nasty, sneaky, self-seving, manipulative user, but I know I dont need them to know this about him. I dont think its your job to save her, she’s a grown-up making her own decisions. If an ex had come to me and told me all about Ed I dont think it would have mattered as I new he was a bad guy at heart, and I thought ‘I was the one to change him’. The woman you should feel responsible is yourself, and only you.
Stay strong and free of him, it works.
I see the following:
1. Explaining why he didn’t think relationships were a good idea because then you’re obligated to do certain things you normally wouldn’t do. *laugh* We share an 18 month relationship that I now take 1/2 the blame for because I should have walked out when he said that in the beginning.
2. Children and marriage are just things people do to fill themselves up with what they lack inside and can’t give to themselves. Even further, that children are just what people do when they want to experiment and try to make mini versions of them and perfect their own flaws. *woah*
3. When I caught him denying his time spent with me to his close friends and family. He called it omitting and not lying. I called it BS
4. This goes with #3 – denying being with me to certain people because he wanted to be viewed as an individual and not just as “1/2 of a couple.” So basically lying to people so they viewed him in a certain way.
The kicker is – he dumped me. My ego screams at me saying “you should have dumped him.” And this is true, I should have left before a relationship ever started because of all the flags I missed…but now I see he did me a favor. I’m happy to be rid of him – no matter who initiated it.
@ Ivy – Damn girl, this is some serious stuff. You said that you felt like he played you but earlier up you also mentioned that you were desperate to be loved. I’ve been in that position and I can say that I wasn’t played, but rather I played along. I knew he was full of shit but I thought I could take it, for the time being, to counter the loneliness. It didn’t work. Like this article states, we see the red flags from early on but we push on, hoping for a miracle, because of that need to be loved and loved NOW. I think Natalie’s mentioned before in her writings that we’re often so focused on being loved that we ignore the fact that the guy in front of us isn’t capable of it.
I wondered about the previous girlfriend too, and how she lasted so long but you know what? It’s for her to go through the process herself so she can be free of him. It’s a rare woman that can take the advice of another who has been with her man, and then again, why would she trust what you say?
She must reach her own revelation, just as you’ve reached yours and I’ve reached mine. There’s a song by Solange called Would’ve Been The One and it speaks so eloquently about a cheater. There’s a part where she says “I figured out he was empty on my own.” These men are empty. Floating and suriving on their looks/charm/sob stories/bullshit.
Some of the other commenters mentioned, too, about these guys denying things they’d said. I went through that too and it’s comforting to see that this is a trend among these mofos because it only further makes it clear that they do live among us and you’re not imagining things. It seems harsh to use strong language about another human being but we must, so that next you see that face or hear that voice, you’ll liken it to the devil paying you a call. How easily we forget the tears, the pain, the AGITATION & UNCERTAINTY. Never forget. You’ll end up doing the same crap again.
@ Niki.. I love your way of putting it: “I knew he was full of shit but I thought I could take it, for the time being, to counter the loneliness.”
Yes, that is me, too. I did exactly that and to an extent am still unable to let go, because I am lonely and still need validation.
“we see the red flags from early on but we push on, hoping for a miracle, because of that need to be loved and loved NOW… we’re often so focused on being loved that we ignore the fact that the guy in front of us isn’t capable of it.”
Yes, that is me.
Thank you for putting into words what I did to myself, it really helps to have a terminology to use to make sense of what we’ve done, and why.
This site has forced me to confront the ugly truth about myself. That I am lonely, that I need validation, that i ignored red flags because i wanted him so much to give me validation and assuage my loneliness. All this is hard to swallow when you have to stop hiding behind the words “but I LOVE him” and face the ugly truth.
I have a red flag and I don’t know what to make of it. Most of his female friends…or the ones he gets attached to…are married. At the start, I was too and that was the peak of ‘us’. I am divorced now (unrelated to him) and it seems I have lost my appeal so to speak. We secretly flirted, even sexual flirting (but nothing more until after I divorced).
He cheated on his ex with a married woman.
Oh god. I already know the answer to this, don’t I? 🙁
Aw Cindy, yes you do.
If he wanted a committed monogamous relationship he wouldn’t be chasing after married women. He wants a “relationship” with built in
limitations so he doesn’t have to commit to it.
To be fair, according to Natalie, fallback girls want a limited relationship too, otherwise we wouldn’t be chasing after the most unlikely candidates (men who have other women, married men, men who simply don’t show up, men who just want fun, men who point blank say they don’t want a relationship). I’m still trying to wrap my head around that but it’s logical and, in a way, it’s good news. Cos if there is something we can change, it’s ourselves.
I had maybe two toal hours of bliss and 100,000 total hours of anxiety, fear, loneliness and depression. I used to say he drove me crazy, but the truth is I ignored the thousand red flags and drive myself crazy trying to believe he was the pronce charming I wanted him to be instead of the transparent toad everyone else saw him as.
Now I pay attention to red flags. I’ve learned. It just means less pain in the long run.
@ daysleeper re: re-evaluating family relationships….
After a parade of ACs danced through my life, I began to realize that the common denominator was me. The first thing I did was get over the most recent one (and my first love – so it spanned about two decades altho we weren’t in contact throughout, but it nearly crushed me with grief and the feeling that I had wasted my entire life and squandered opportunities for other things). After that, I decided not to date for a while (I’d also left my husband and gone through a divorce just prior to that drama), and instead to focus on making a new life, and new friends. My ex misrepresented our relationship and its demise to our “couple friends” and they chose him. I decided that if after a decade they didn’t reach out to me, they weren’t the kind of people I would put energy into. So it was an opportunity to start life from scratch. I decided not to date and just to come to terms with everything instead. This allowed me to focus on friends and family. Because I wasn’t distracted with relationship drama, I was able to see my other relationships a lot more clearly. It dawned on me that some of my female friendships actually paralleled my romantic relationships. E.G. friends who’d look you up only to dump their emotional baggage on your doorstep before twirling off for another madcap adventure that would inevitably be a disaster and voila they’d be back crying over it. But there was no effort to maintain the friendship otherwise. As long as I was around to pick up the pieces, listen to and encourage them – and spend time with them between boyfriends, that was the role I played. But I began to feel used, and that we didn’t do anything that was fun or not centered around dissecting men. I began actually, to get bored (these were long term friendships that had been in a repeat pattern for years). At the same time, because I was rebuilding my life, I was pursuing other interests and began to meet women who shared similar interests and slowly developed different friendships based on mutual interests. Eventually, I ended the long term friendships that had made me feel used (to be fair, I tried to talk them about the one-sided nature but they laughed me off and didn’t take me seriously and why should they have, I’d always been there for them). But, that allowed me some objectivity to take a good look around at my life and the relationships I had developed. I began to see that my romantic relationships and friendships all shared in common that these people were takers, and had used me. I had set myself up – I was always trying to help and fix people and so I guess chose to have those relationships as a way to validate myself, but they were unhealthy. So (sorry this is so long winded… but I am getting to the family part), I started to wonder where all of this had come from and why I had become this way. I had a difficult spring/summer with my parents who normally do not live in my city but were here this year, I began to see that my father was always removed, in his own world, while my mum looked for companionship etc from me. I am the oldest sibling and my younger ones are married so the responsibility of looking out for my mum fell to me. Growing up, my dad wasn’t around much and my mum carried everything, so she was often stressed and anxious and placed a lot of responsibility for my sibs and the household on me. Although chores were divided evening, it was me who’d get yelled at followed by silent treatment if something didn’t get done – even if I had done everything she had assigned to me. And there was constant criticism – under the guise of making me a better person I guess. All that does is make you feel like a failure. All that to say, I grew up feeling like I had to fix and take care of everything, be perfect, live up to everyone’s expectations and finally couldn’t trust my own instincts. I was taught to put everything else before me – including an emotionally abusive boyfriend she had loved. This fall I guess I just snapped. She guilt tripped and manipulated me in two situations that absolutely shocked me to the core and I finally woke up. It is such a complicate thing because I love my parents very much and have a lot of love, admiration and compassion for my mum and her own childhood which was pretty traumatic. But at the same time, I recognize the legacy of her childhood has damaged me and my ability to have healthy relationships. So, I have taken a time out from my family. I communicate about only the most superficial things via email, but that is about it. I am actually meeting with my sibs to explain to them how I feel and tell them I need help in dealing with and caring for our parents (because I always did this, they and my dad would just carry on with their own lives). I am not sure how that will be received by them but I have to try. They know I am serious because I finally blew up and stopped talking to them and refuse contact for a couple of months (which is completely not like me – so they actually reached out to me). To be honest, I don’t know how I am going to deal with my mum. The thing is you can’t change anyone else, only yourself. So, I am reading a lot of books about dysfunctional relationships and considering therapy to help me develop new ways of relating and coping strategies. I do think I am going to confront her the next time she guilt trips or criticizes me. Daysleeper – this has been such a long answer, but I hope it has helped you. Everyone has their own path, and I am still trying to find mine. I really do believe though that resolving this is the key to moving forward with all relationships.
done
I have only recently put boundaries in place in dealing with my parents. Father is reserved, controlling and critical. Mother is physically and verbally abusive (but not so much now she is disabled). Both elderly and requiring quite a lot of help. But you know what, I am not the only person in the world who can help them! They have other children, they have people they know at church. I do as much as I feel able to do and someone else can take care of the rest. And, others HAVE stepped in. There’s no need for them to step in if we are there doing it all!
I’m not sure about confrontation with toxic parents. If you can do so without danger to yourself – emotional or physical – then you may get something out of it But I think the chances of them admitting to what they have done or taking on board what you say are very small (even less so than with our EUMs). However, you can certainly refuse to be manipulated and used. I just bluntly said “I’m not doing it” .
Having boundaries has enabled me to continue a relationship with my parents (albeit not a close one). The alternative was to cut them off altogether. All I need is to know is that they are okay. I don’t need any validation, approval, communication or love from them. That would simply be like getting blood from a stone. Can’t be bothered anymore (after 45 years)!
Grace – thank you so much for your thoughtful words, and for taking the time to read through my overly long post! I think you are absolutely right that confronting won’t necessarily do good, I guess to me confronting in my situation is simply to call out the behaviour and say no, you’re not going to manipulate me into x.y,z. You are so right that others won’t change. I think we all construct images of ourselves that we can live with and that justify our behaviour. I believe that my mum really believes she has done what she has with love and good intentions. You are absolutely right that there are others too that are able to help. This has been a problem of mine for sure – not saying no and not asking for help! I am learning though. Thanks again, so much for your thoughtful response 🙂
DoneAsDinner, I, too have found that our dysfunctions with relationships goes back to unacknowledged dysfunctions with our family. I have tried to talk to my Mom about my dysfunctional relationship with her, but she refuses to see her part, she just says she did the best she could and she doesn’t want to hear it. So, I have to PRETEND that everything is just fine. Well, “faking it” is what I learned how to do. I’ve had to call a “time out” on my family, too. I have refused to spend the “holidays” with them because I have to “pretend” too much and I can’t “pretend” any more.
@ JJ2 – OMG – that is exactly right! I’ve tried to broach the subject in the past with my mum and she said the EXACT same thing. That’s why I wrote in my follow up that we all construct images of ourselves that we can live with. I too have called a time out on the holidays for the same reasons you have. Like you, I am done with pretending.
Thank you so much to all of you for the kind words. Thank you Nathalie!
I will not contact him!!! Ever! I don’t want to see him in front of my eyes, not hearing him. This is hard as we have same group of friends, and this woman came in like she supose to be there, but I take the risk to lose some friends and not going anywere where they (Mr. M & She) will be, until I will be confortable with this.
I am very much afraid. But I realise after reading some posts here, that I am actually afraid of ME. I am the only one who sticked with this man. I had before him only 2 relationships, but they ended normaly. This experience realy shocked me and I have spend so many years from my life just to see how this man raise his status, his money, his confidence and then find another woman to continue his life agenda. I will go through each post and start to work with my self. I tried to write my beliefs, but when I sit down and think about it my mind became blank. I tried few times yesterday and today, and its like my brain is washed. Anyway, going through my story I realise that I have been (unconscious) craving for love, acceptance, validation. I wonder how will I turn this around and start to give it to myself. I don’t know what it means for me to love, accept and validate myself. I think I have to start with WHO I am now and WHAT I want in all aspects of my life. Since I am taking everything from zero, here I am, taking me from zero too. I think I have to thank him for giving me the oportunity to get born again.
Oana, it takes time. You are taking the hardest steps right now. As time goes by and your head starts coming out of the fog, your beliefs and perceptions come into focus. There is no shortcut but there is light at the end of the tunnel. Stay NC, that is what really kept me sane and on the right path. When you start to analyze his crappy behaviour, which you will, remember that these were HIS issues. You may never understand why he did what he did, but figuring out his dysfunction won’t help you with our future. Focus on why you ignored red flags or didn’t see them, focus on why you stayed. That is caring about yourself. I heard a saying that really stuck with me, “Ruin is the road to transformation.” Hang in there and have faith in yourself. You have the power, don’t give it back to him.
Well, I have been on this site for about 3 weeks now, reading Natalie’s posts and everyone’s comments. Like the rest of you, I think Natalie is reading my mind and writing her posts just for me! And then I know lots of you wonderful sisters are going through the same thing and somehow I feel not so alone. I am going on 4 weeks with NC from my EUM and finally, finally feeling much better! Those rose colored glasses are getting more focused every day, seeing both his and my part in this destructive relationship (he is married). Everyone comments about NC, but not so much the steps, so I thought I would share what has been working for me and maybe it will help you:
1). Started seeing my therapist I hadn’t seen in 3 years once a week. Very eery how much my EUM has many traits similar to good old EU Dad! Unfortunately, finding out I am pretty EU myself, darn it.
2). When I am compelled to contact him (and I know without a doubt if I contact him, he will come back) I play it all out in my head: I contact him, we go back to the same thing that caused yet another fight and his silent treatment, I beg and whine until he graciously bestows his attention on me again (which makes me hate myself while I hear the begging coming out of my mouth), and nothing will change. The future will be the same as the past, so what is the use? I will just get fed up again and start the cycle over. I end up feeling pretty hopeless about anything positive coming of it and the need to contact him passes.
3). Enlisted help of my best friend, asked her to be my sponsor like AA. If I am truly feeling down and having a pity party, she comes over and has it with me. After a few glasses of wine and her telling me how I am SO MUCH BETTER than him in every aspect (looks, career success, personality) I start agreeing with her!
4). I run for my exercise and stepped it up a bit. I go even when I feel like going back to bed. So every time I achieve a new distance I feel empowered, not to mention the lovely endorphin effect. And it keeps me looking good for my own self esteem (and my future lover I am sure to have).
5). Going out with friends every chance I get! Happy hour, the movies, lunch. Doesn’t matter, I go!
6). I am sending him gratitude every day for blowing hot and cold. If he had continued to treat me well, I would have stayed with him much longer. And really, he has a WIFE and he is a cheater!!!
7). Finally, and hope this doesn’t offend anyone…bought a new toy that takes care of physical needs, which I feel are important to acknowledge, cause we lost that too, right? I just make sure fantasy land doesn’t include EUM, any good looking movie star will do and not cause imagined continued connection to EUM! So physical needs are not driving my obsessive thoughts any longer.
So thank you Natalie, and good luck sisters!! You all ROCK!!!
@ Old enough – that was a great post and all your steps were bang on!
@Jennynic:
“It sorta is like starting out on the premise of not expecting much from him, which could backfire down the road, when you start expecting more. ”
(Couldn’t do another “reply” had to start anew)
BINGO! In some cases, the “expecting more” gradually happened on both sides at the same rate, which justified my reason for “non-dates.”
But in some cases, it was like….. “I didn’t have a problem when it was non-dates but now that it’s a date, I have a problem with it.” And that can confuse the heck out of a guy.
Red flags I saw but chose to ignore:
1. reliance on email and text message, despite being in an office next door.
2. never EVER showing any interest in me, how I felt or what I was doing when we were not together.
3. mistaking attention and time spent together for care or evidence of growth in the relationship.
4. his lack of empathy – emotions not feeling real.
5. feeling controlled, manipulated and anxious. Always unsure of the status of the relationship.
6. he never wanted to talk about what was going on.
7. I never felt like I could talk about what was going on.
8. we only did what he wanted to do, when he wanted to get together. Any suggestions made by me were ignored until he trained me to stop asking.
9. mistaking meeting all his friends and family as a sign that it was serious.
10. his real fear of physical intimacy. Insane sexual hangups.
11. lots of exaggerations, fabrications, embellishments -fancy ways of saying he told alot of lies.
12. his future faking, rewriting history and hitting the reset button.
13. *****his constant refusals to apologize, hold himself accountable for his actions or words, and he could never ever be wrong about anything******
14. words and actions that didn’t match beyond the first 2 months.
15. his 0% successful romantic track record and a long string of very short-term ex-girlfriends who hated his guts and wouldn’t speak to him (one woman’s assclown is another woman’s assclown).
16. the presence of the narcissistic harem.
17. he was 40 years old and had just moved out of his mother’s house, only to return for 6 months every year (run!!!!!)
18. he had no long term friends, spent his 40th birthday at home alone with his mother.
19. when angry or upset, he reverted emotionally to a 5 year old.
20. as the relationship went on, I felt worse and worse about myself. My self-esteem was eroded and I was blaming myself for everything.
Never again. What was I thinking???
Looking back at the “friendship” before the “relationship” there were enough red flags there to not even go on a first date! Pursuing me as a married woman with blantant sexual references such as “can I have you for lunch” until I flatly said NO. I believe in monogamy even thou my marriage was ending – its no justification. Just a week after my divorce he was blowin way hot!!! After years of emotional neglect with an EUM I was prime meat and starving for attention. Easy target for a predator.
Biggest red flag – if you are willing to cheat with me – you are willing to cheat on me AND he did. I had to come to this – I am not happy that it didn’t work out – I am happy that I realized it would never would.
What do you do to deal with regressive stages? After all, these are deep rooted patterns and are rather hard to break. In my case, my ex left and then came back after a month of no contact. When I didn’t take him back immediately, and set some boundaries and standards, he totally freaked out. He was expecting to press the reset button! Well, thank goodness I didn’t let him do that. Soon afterwards he failed to contact me for a week during my most important exams. I sent him an email telling him that actions speak louder than words and to not contact me again. I was fine, didn’t cry even once. And then the night before last I had dreams about him. During the initial break up period too, these dreams would always set me back. In these recent dreams I saw him getting back with his ex who had always been an issue in our relationship. I woke up very disturbed and then last night, I did the stupidest thing. I unblocked him on gtalk from the email account of the magazine I edit, saw him online, and eventually typed in “why?” waited 30 seconds, then promptly came back into my senses, blocked and deleted him from the contact list. And now all of these bad feelings have come back into my headspace. All these questions like, why would you come back and claim to love me and think about me all the time and then act like this? This is truly disappointing. I’m glad I’m not engaging in this manner with him any more but I don’t want these dreams to disturb me so much!
Wow NML,
This is an incredibly powerful post. The reason being that being able to reflect, once you have clarity from your emotions, means you can gain even deeper insights and understandings about yourself and how you interact with relationships.
I think if all women truly did an assessment of what they learn about themselves, men and relationships it would explode the amount of personal growth and also help to make wiser choices in the future.
But the truth of the matter is, that many people bounce from relationship to relationship blaming the last failed one of it being a case of the wrong person or what not and do not realise that they contribute at least to 50% of that.
Hot Alpha Female
There were major red flags for me
1. We met and he went on and on about his ex girlfriend
2. At first we didn’t meet up very often
3. He didn’t want me to be his girlfriend
4. He never did as he said
there are more it is quite painful walking through these major red flags and going on the red anyway
Its like I had the knowledge but went on any way like knowing the roller coaster ride is broken and it will crash and you will be hurt but you get on it anyway and all that you knew deep down would happen does. You end hurt and broken and all could have been avoided by simply disengaging and moving on.
Things I missed when looking at myself my anxiety levels always went up when we were meeting up I always felt as though I had to go through an audition process sometimes he was quite critical of me and I walked around thinking I’m a failure and what can I do to improve.
I often felt depressed that I was meeting up with him and didn’t want to go I always dimissed this feeling and thought no it will be good when I got there.
But I feel conflicted right now I feel anxiety right now as I type it is so hard changing I just want to contact him I hate that I’m still invested in him I thought I wasn’t but I have come to understand I am and still need to work hard at this I can only imagine it is like an alcoholic needing a drink thinking that one drink will fix the craving then they can stop again
thats like me I feel like I need a fix. I know this fix would suck I have sucked it and seen before I know logically there is no point to making contact blah blah and thus far thanks to this web site Im holding on by a thread.
Good idea westend making a list must do that
Im feeling better I went back and read the posts always helpful.
I realise that I follow a pattern urgh …
It was four months ago today he came to visit me and tried to dump me but as NML says “they can’t commit to being with you and they can’t commit to not being without you” so he never told me the truth but his actions did and in many ways I feel he pushed me to saying I don’t want anything to do with you anymore doing his dirty work for him.
I fell off the no contact wagon in October but got back on it and have stayed on it was doing well then re read our last e mail conversation and sabataged myself felt almost back at the beginning when I first did no contact. But having read the post and comments I have more resolve than earlier in the day to stay no contact. 40 days and counting.
Gonna think back to my longest relationship, which was about 3.5 years long and while obtaining higher education.
– passive-aggressive: instead of discussing challenges we had, he’d say or do shady shit instead of coming out with whatever his problem was
– blew cold sometimes but when I ignored him, all of a sudden he was blowing as hot as any country on or near the Equator
– very enmeshed with his sister, who often dictated what and how he felt; even now I wonder if there was some incest going on when they were little kids (all jokes aside)
– he said “she” was just his friend; unfortunately, I ignored my intuition despite feeling that something wasn’t right
– he just stopped calling….. after almost 3.5 years of being together….. just like that 😐 There were no arguments beforehand, no tensions, nothing….. he just stopped calling
We were young, but looking back, damn if he wasn’t a young emotionally unavailable assclown in the making. 😐 I can, however, acknowledge my part in things – I always thought men were lying dirtbag cheaters so I subconsciously thought the same of him. Lo and behold, he fulfilled my prophecy.
Thank goodness for growth, extra years of life, and wisdom. Oh, and this site too.
Wow.. I’m so glad I found this site. It’s been so helpful, especially reading all the experiences of others and how they have changed their lives around.
Finding this site gave me the courage to leave my AC.
I ignored a lot of red flags, mostly because he was an ex from 10 years ago and I always thought we had a connection and “what ifs” unresolved from that time.
The red flags ranged from:
* not wanting to actually be in a relationship with me despite all the confessions of regretting that he messed up all those years ago
* Constant put downs in the form of jokes
* Very critical of his ex’s and of all women in general – constantly commenting on other women’s bodies and clothing
* Sending me home to get changed, or telling me he thought my clothing made me look “uncomfortable”
* Not wanting to sleep with me. This had to be the worst for my self esteem. Sex with me was a chore.
* That it was okay for him to go off all night with his “girl” mates
* Together for a year but he would not discuss living together… only sometimes, the distant future and how we would get married and have kids etc
Now for the kicker. I actually got pregnant.
* When I asked his intentions (i.e marriage) he ran a mile and said it was too much pressure.
* Went off drinking immediately before I had a chance to discuss the pregnancy and told the whole world before I even had a chance to tell my parents
* Declared we would not live together, that I should continue to live with my parents and he would just work and contribute financially
* Had his family ring me and tell me I was an idiot for wanting to marry him and put HIM under that stress
* Wanted to go to band practice instead of seeing me when I was in a lot of pain and scared. Said I should give him “time”.
I didn’t have time. I felt alone and the stress was unbearable. I miscarried. I asked him to be there but he said he didn’t want any “abuse” from me (???) I did NC for a few days (was in hospital) and he said I deserved everything I got because I didn’t take his call. His family said the same. Basically we were over because I didn’t pick up the phone (he wouldn’t come and visit me)
That should have been me slamming the door and NC from that moment, but I felt emotionally vulnerable and couldn’t come to terms that someone who claimed to want a future with me, was actually leaving me to be a solo mother, and felt no empathy for me when I lost the baby.
He played the “wanting to be friends card” which I didn’t want until he gave me a glimmer of home in the form of needing “time out” and would maybe then resume a relationship with me.
I chased after him and pretended I had no needs and tried to cater to HIS feelings of loss. When I went to see him, he argued with me and yelled so very loudly at me on his doorstep so that all the neighbours could hear what had happened with us and the baby.
I kept asking him if he wanted a relationship, leaving it in his lap to decide our fate.
Then I found this website. He txted me that he’s decided to “call it a day” and he needs to sort himself out and I should do whatever I wanted to do.
I couldn’t help myself and txted back that I was done with him and that I wanted no friendship anyway.
Now that I know for sure he is an AC, I am happy to leave it there and move on.
I continued to run after him, though he said he wanted to be single and that we weren’t together
Sorry the last paragraph was meant to be earlier up.
I’m happy to be out of this relationship now and I don’t think my Red Flags could have got any bigger.
I know now what to look out for and will find a non-AC and have a chance at starting a family – in a sane and secure relationship.
Thanks girls.
@Wake-up-call
Poor you – what a dreadful experience and he sounds like a total slime ball.
I think, like you, I kept chasing for a relationship with my now ex that was never ever going to be – never in a month of Sundays.
Don’t look back. Run from this man, fast as you can.
Good luck! F
I’ve wasted 11 years of my life on an AC….at 1st he swept
me off my feet. when I got pregnant 9 years ago, everything start
to surface…. I found out he was married with a child ( only knew
about 1)….. n the list goes on and I still stayed. 2 years ago he
moved out because he thought I was cheating, when I was only having
conversation with a friend. Since then he has not moved back in,
but we continued to see each other. However, I felt something was
not right, but I ignored it because he was with me and the kids
majority of the time. New Years Eve 2010, we were suppose to be
together, but he told me he was spending it with family. I said,
“I’m your woman, why wasn’t I invited?” his response was, “my
family don’t like you” and I was like I am not in a relationship
with your family. With that being said, I ended the “relationship”.
Now I find out I am 6 weeks pregnant, which Im keeping (he doesn’t
want it) We had no contact for 2 weeks, last weekend he takes our
daughter to his “girlfriend’s house”….I was literally
devastated!….didn’t understand, we just broke up 2 weeks ago and
he takes my daughter to another woman’s house?!….that was alot to
digest, I cried 4 hours. The most hurting part was that he was
playing house with me and takes our daughter to another woman’s
house! He told my daughter to lie and say she was with her
Grandmother while he was at work. At first I said nothing, but my
thoughts started getting the best of me, so I asked my daughter.
She cried while telling me the truth because her dad told her to
cover 4 him. What man would do such a thing? have a 9year old lie
for him, what message is he sending to our child? I would love to
cease ALL contact from him seeing my child at this time! At this
point, I am trying to take it day by day. I am going have my baby
whether he likes it or not. I feel so much hurt and pain especially
with the pregnancy hormones! Ive never felt so hurt and wonder when
will it get better, my mind has been telling me to do some really
awful things right now…..I cry and pray everyday for GOD to take
this pain out of me.