A few months back I shared how I ended up telling an acquaintance that the man she suspected of telling her porkies was in fact married. I’d met him a few months beforehand with a few other people and when she described him I was like “Well it must be X because the one you’re describing sounds like Y and he’s married”. She kept telling me I’d got them the wrong way round and by the time I realised I actually hadn’t got them mixed up, the truth became very clear. Mor-ti-fi-cation!
Now one of the things that annoyed me at the time was this whole ‘Man Code’ thing, you know, the so-called unspoken rules between guys. He told her that if she didn’t believe that he wasn’t divorced, she could ask the boyf (my partner). Of course, he knew she was highly unlikely to follow up. This is what’s known as a ruse.
When someone pulls The Ruse, they tell you that they can show/do something or that you can ask somebody else, so that you can verify their claims, all while knowing it’s highly unlikely that you will follow through. It’s a form of gaslighting.
The ruse-puller knows you’ll be reluctant to call their bluff. They play on your possible fear of coming across distrusting or of creating conflict. The Ruse aims to silence any queries and allay your fears and, ultimately, they gain your trust. A crucial aspect of the trick is saying stuff like ‘Just ask X’ or ‘If you don’t believe me ask Y’ or ‘If you don’t believe me, we may as well end it now’.
They make what they’re suggesting sound like a fact. In turn, you take it as the truth and assume that the ‘evidence’ that they pointed to is there should you decide to avail yourself of it. As it’s supposed to be ‘fact’, you assume it’s immovable.
Even if you do say ‘OK then, I will‘, they’ll guilt-trip you. They’ll accuse you of not believing them. ‘Is my word not good enough for you?’ or ‘Well, [the relationship] obviously can’t go on if you don’t trust me.’ Or, they’ll string it out.
Take Mr Married-But-Pretending-He’s-Not. He believes the ‘Man Code’ is alive and well. He assumes that if she’d called up the boyf, that he’d verify the story without him even having to ask him to do it (um, no!).
The ruse-puller may get melodramatic or just plain mean so that somehow you forget that this is about questionable ‘truths’ and you end up guilt-tripped.
You feel bad that they feel bad and feel guilty for having justifiable concerns. This leads you to question your judgement. If you don’t follow through and clarify, this is an example of the setting up of a trust point. From there, you’re likely to take information at face value for fear of reprisals if you question it.
Now you’d think that the story of this cheat would end there. Nope! He’s phoning, texting, emailing up a storm, weeping, begging to be taken back and saying ‘I can show you the divorce papers if you like’. Obviously, she’s still giving an ear to this twit when he needs a closed door.
He’s still pulling The Ruse. For a start, if he’s that desperate to show his non-existent divorce papers, he’d have put them down on the table long ago. Oh, that’s right, he can’t because he doesn’t have any! And he’s relying on her taking him at his word or bamboozling her if she asks to see them. Either that or he’ll be buying fake divorce papers from a website. Again, everything he’s doing is gaslighting. He’s attempting to hijack her reality by creating doubt and through misdirection, emotional blackmail, misinformation and contradiction.
Pulling The Ruse is manipulation.
Psychologically, the message is clear: I know I told you that you could ask this person or that I can show you this stuff, but I only said that you could so that you’d believe what I’m saying. It’s not an invitation to actually do it. Doing so would mean that you’re questioning whether I am a trustworthy person. You’d make me feel bad about myself. The fact that what I’m telling you isn’t actually true is beside the point. If you cared about me, you’d believe me without having to check up on me. Wah wah wah.
As humans, at least honest ones, we don’t like to feel like we’re causing someone else to feel that they can’t be trusted. When we imagine what it feels like to be distrusted, it makes us feel like a ‘bad person’.
But comparing yourself with a dishonest person who’s offering you ‘evidence’ that you’re not allowed to substantiate is rationalising the irrational. You’re not the one talking out of your bottom while trying to convince the other party that you’re talking out of your mouth.
Someone pulling The Ruse means that they’re highly manipulative. They’ll beg, borrow, steal, cheat, and of course, lie to exploit those around them.
If they’re behaving in this way, it will be part of a wider picture of lies and code red/amber behaviour. What they don’t realise is that aside from any lies they may be telling, what can actually become the bigger issue is the mind f*ckery. The gaslighting. I’m always suspicious of anyone who turns something they’re doing around and puts it on you. Next thing, they’re the ‘victim’.
Be careful of those that seek to draw you into their web of lies. Their version of truth and honesty is woven out of a carefully constructed set of lies and premises that they have to keep intact to remain in denial and avoid taking responsibility for their actions. This isn’t honest communication.
You will find that whenever issues present themselves, they’ll attempt to manipulate you into not being able to see their dishonesty.
To add insult to injury, they also pull this stuff to set loyalty and love tests. In their mind, someone who loves them will believe any lie they tell. That’s emotional blackmail.
Don’t deny anything, and be honest with yourself about how they’ve come to be pulling The Ruse on you. You have discovered (or come close to finding out) the truth, which means there are lies in your relationship. There are lies that not only is this person refusing to admit to, but they’re actually seeking to drag you down further. Watch out, because they’ll likely drip-feed you the truth. And by the time the last drip is in, you won’t know your arse from your elbow.
Hit the flush handle and opt out. Instigate No Contact if necessary. Don’t worry about them – they’re already pulling The Ruse elsewhere. Don’t try to teach basic decency – we are all too old to be teaching another adult the difference between truth and lies. How much you try to teach or how much you’ll listen will govern how ‘deep’ you’ll get into a bad situation. I suggest you turn yourself on to an honesty ‘frequency’ and shut them out.
Your thoughts?
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Oh I had an ex back in college that pulled the Ruse on me a couple of times. The last straw was when I caught him calling his ex in the bathroom on a date we were sharing at his home. I passed by the door on the way to the kitchen and heard him arguing with someone on the phone and ending it with “you know I care about you.” When he came out I asked if he had been talking to his ex. “No, I was on the phone with Jake.” Really? He told me if I didn’t believe him that I could call Jake myself and ask if he was just talking to him (assuming I wouldn’t). Well I did. I excused myself, went to the room where my cell was and called his friend Jake. The friend didn’t understand why I was calling and when my ex came up in the room and realized I was on the phone with his friend he smacked the phone out of my hand, causing my lip to bleed.
Hell no. It ended right then and there. Good riddance to that mess.
It’s funny. I took a lot of lies and manipulation from my last ex and always came back for more – but it was so easy to leave and never look back when it came to my ex in college. It worries me to think that a guy has to hit me in order for me to really want to leave. All is well now – and I’m thankful to have learned as much as I have from those dbags.
When dealing with my ex-EUM man (I’m in No Contact right now), when I became impatient about being strung along he ended up saying; “A patient woman never loses out with me”. So I waited longer and all I got in the end was a man who chased me for two months (when I tried to move on but still in contact), begged to come over, said we were compatible/he was attracted to me, then I let him come over and he suddenly gets up at 3am, says he is stressed/overwhelmed and ends up leaving me at 3am (caused me to go No Contact) and tells me the next day that I wasn’t his type (after seeing him a year….suddenly I’m not his type) and that he wasn’t sexually attracted to me.
In my case, I believed his future faking and largely ignored his actions for a long time just because I wanted us to end up together. That’s how you can separate the lies from the truth is to watch what they say versus what they do. It opened my eyes when I started doing this for myself and it was clear that he was going to drag me along as far as I let him.
The lies often reveal themselves if we listen to the actions instead of the words.
Question: how do we deal with these men who think they are good people or who believe something they’ve done isn’t wrong? This is driving me nuts! After the above, my ex-EUM had the nerve to call me up and say “Ok, let’s get this over with” before delivering the news. Then saying, “Well, I’m sorry, this is just how I feel and I can’t help that”. Not even apologizing or thinking he was in the wrong for chasing me and then leaving me the way he did.
Every fiber in me wants to argue with him about why he isn’t a good person or why he did me dirty but I know that I MUST move on for MYSELF. Any advice on this?
“Question: how do we deal with these men who think they are good people or who believe something they’ve done isn’t wrong?”
The short answer is you don’t deal with them at all.
Trust me when I say I know from experience how impossible that might sound right now. For MANY months, I wanted my ex-AC to apologize, see how wrong he was, etc. Even his own friends were telling him he was being a jackass. As many other women on here could tell you, they won’t admit it. They will spin their own version of the story to you and their friends, mostly to convince themselves they are not the assholes that they really are.
It will wreak havoc with your emotions and your mental well-being, if you let it. It took me awhile, but it finally dawned on me that my ex-AC was a coward. Scared to look me in the eye (or even call on the phone), and be faced with how hurt I was. He was scared to truly look at himself, to admit that he could possibly have played any part at all in the whole mess.
What it comes down to is trusting ourselves, and realizing that we don’t need for them to agree with us, just to make us feel better about the situation. The reason it drives us crazy is because we are looking for validation that our judgement is sound and sure. That validation will never come from these guys. But you will find plenty of it here on BR. And as you heal, you will learn to trust yourself more, and feel certain of your decisions and intuition.
I hit enter before I was done typing my response so here’s the rest of it…
I think we all understand how frustrating it can be when someone is clearly behaving like a complete a-hole and doesn’t seem to recognize it but I can assure you that by telling him, (no matter how well you explain it and how many valid points you make) you will never get through to him because he is an ASS an absolute ASS!!! Don’t do it, you will just feel more frustrated and you’ll be mad at yourself for breaking NC. If you haven’t read it yet please check out Natalie’s “Telling Them All About Themselves – Why It’s Not Your Job To List Their Flaws and Crimes”. There really is no way to make people like this understand how eff’ed up they are so please please please spare yourself the aggravation and forgo having this conversation with him and just keep up NC! As time passes and you gain emotional distance from him you will be able to see this much more clearly and you will be happy that you hit the flush handle!
I am so in tune with everything you have said. I also had an AC who would not face me or talk “at the end” because of pure cowardice. I’m glad I don’t have to do another thing for this “person”. In fact, all of his relationships ended the same way…..in silence, with his departure. He told me about all of them! Even his best friend from childhood….gone without a word after a minor disagreement. I thought I was different. I listened to all of his stories about his failed relationships, and how they ended, some after 7 years! Well, I lasted 8. Thank God it’s over. I feel sorry for the next one! And his wife? I cannot even begin to understand.
Interesting point:
“In silence, with [their] departure…”
You can apply this to wayyyyy not only the EU people you date, but also to wayyyyyy more people than the EU people you date!
And, yes, many of those who pull that “trick” or “stunt” really DO believe (in their own heads only) that they are 100% (or at least somewhat) in the right!
This may be the result of the facts that:
1. this “trick” gets pulled only ONCE and never again (and they deep down know this);
2. it is done at a time when you are at a point in your life where you are saying (to yourself and/or to them) (verbally and/or non-verbally): “enough is enough!”
3. whatever the “last straw” is on their part/doing, IN AND OF ITSELF, the act of it is not nearly as heinous as other stuff they have pulled, but the act/”last straw” STILL has meaning, in that it STILL is (and is STILL enoug of) an insult to YOU that you KNOWS it’s bad.
Hence their being able to tell others, “Well, she is just totally nuts! See what she did! Aren’t I right for acting the way I did! (leaving with “dignity”/”class”/her-to-live-her-own-life).
Hilarious when you think about it.
Just call me psycho b**ch. His words – not mine. LMAO
I totally understand feeling the need to tell this man how much of a dbag he is but don’t waste your time and energy because the fact is, HE IS A DBAG AND NOTHING YOU SAY WILL GET HIM TO ACCEPT THAT!
Cindy, you’re asking the wrong question. Why, when you know someone has done so much wrong, are you still focusing your efforts on working out how you can tell them all about themselves? Your desire to be right and have the last word is currently greater than your desire to move on from an unhealthy relationship. Don’t get me wrong – it’s infuriating to come across someone who has an allergy to reality but that is your signal to opt out and move on. Read https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/telling-them-all-about-themselves-why-its-not-your-job-to-list-their-flaws-and-crimes/
I love the phrase “an allergy to reality”!!!!
NML – I appreciate the links to past BR posts. It reminds me that I need to go back and refresh on certain aspects that I am working on.
From the article you suggested: “the solution they’re looking for tends to be trying to figure out what their partner’s problems are. ”
Ouch! That is exactly where my thoughts have been. I had a headache for three days because of it. Although I know my part and accept it, I was busy trying to figure out *his* problem basically to make myself feel better. Do I have enough evidence to know he is a [insert chosen word here]? Yes! Now I see that I need to put more focus on myself. It’s harder than I thought but not impossible. No Contact gets easier and easier.
Thank you ladies for your time! It’s nice to have BR sisters through these times!
Cindy
He’s a numpty! He’s a twit, a liar and an unreliable git. He’s a bigheaded arrogant twerp. Why do you need someone like that to agree with you. Flush! You’d get more sense out of a monkey.
By the way, even though we don’t care what he thinks. if you DO chase after him for an apology all he’s going to say to himself is “wow, i’m so hot, cindy can’t leave me alone! Girls really dig me, they just can’t stay angry”. At least if you disappear there’s a chance he’ll think “Cindy’s moved on”. And when 100 girls disappear on him maybe one day he’ll think “could the problem possibly be ME?!” He ain’t gonna get there with women chucking themselves at him. Leave him to his idiocy, get on with your wonderful life sans twit.
What’s funny is I woke up the other day and the thought popped into my mind – *I* did not lose *him*…….*HE* lost *ME* – which put it into perspective for me. So I wrote it down and put it where I could see it daily. 🙂
I guess seeing him cry like a baby because he did me wrong is too much to ask, huh? 🙂
I know, I am probably still giving him too much of my thoughts. It’s a hard habit to break. But at least I’m not living in the fantasy anymore and kissing his butt for crumbs.
I take that back. It’s still halfway there but I am getting over it. I still miss him. In the back of my mind I still think he will magically turn into Mr. Available. But it’s disappearing. I still want to move on and I am still happier in No Contact than talking with him. Almost there…
Great Article – Once Again!!
I had told myself long ago, if there is no trust, there is no relationship. And that I would walk away when the trust was gone. But did I? NOooo
They do manage to manipulate very well, but if I had trusted my gut and red flags – I would have ended it long ago. We agreed that we wanted to be in a “mature” relationship – and all it was was immature and nonsense.
I remember when he said I could check his phone to see who he was talking to. I told him – you don’t get it – that is not the kind of relationship I want to be in. If you want to flirt with women on email and the phone – you are entitled to – you’re 46 yrs old. But you can do it without me – I am not going to baby sit you. But then I stuck around, not following my gut, or red flags – I need to work on my integrity with myself. I seem to have it with others, but I treat myself worse than I treat others. What is that about Nat?
Aimee
You’re so right about no trust = no relationship. It’s funny how it’s mostly the things we can’t see or verify with our own eyes that are the most important aspects or relationships… i.e. trust, respect, appreciation, care etc.
I think what you said to him was great… but i guess things can be easier to say than actually ‘do’. Plus, I think there’ always a tiny bit of us thinking he’ll treat me nicely(coz we really want him to)-as its so much more difficult difficult to believe that he might not.
Treating ourselves ‘less than’ is so common & particularly if you’re a caring person, who likes to think the best in others and likes to nurture and help… then there’s a real suseptability that these guys can capitalise on.
Of course it shouldnt stop us from being caring and kind, its just that [as hard as it seems to me to realise this reality and to me it’s been incredibly hard] some people will gain nothing from our giving to them kindess & forgiveness… sad as that may be, least of all us.
As a man, if I was approached with a question, I don’t think I would be upset if someone asked to verify the truth. Of course, I think the woman should be prepared to do the same, if asked, and not accused. I think the tone can be an issue, as in any situation. Asking a question means one is prepared to hear one of many answers. When we accuse, it generally means we have made our mind up. However, if the other person responds to a reasonable question, asked without an accusatory tone, as if it was an accusation (see NML above), that is a warning sign, no matter what the facts may be.
One a side note, had an opportunity the read the “Childhood Sweethart” trap blogs from 2/2009. I think they should be a mandatory posting on FB. As an attorney, I recently had a 40+ year old woman leave a long-term relationship to meet with her crush from 8th grade, with whom she had had no contact for almost 30 years. Left her 15 y/o old daughter with my client, which neither he or the daughter had a problem with. Not only is it unlikely she will make it with the “childhood sweetheart”, she may have destroyed her relationship with her daughter.
sorry to go off topic, but those 2 posts were on-point. Also see Nancy Kalish’w website on lost loves. Those who are truly available have a chance to work out. Those seeking to “escape” are doomed to fail.
Pty,
That woman is a horriblyselfish individual. But, something tells me this character flaw did not suddenly appear, I’m certain her needs always came first.
As I understand it, the accusations N refers to are rhetorical, used to manipulate women into feeling guilty for asking questions.
The notion of “accusation” v. “asking” when a woman (or man) approaches a partner they suspect (or know) has done something untoward is something else. In that case, I don’t know if the distinction between asking and accusing is utterly significant. Granted, a shrieking partner saying “I know you were with her!” may be unpleasant, and if it’s totally in her head and she does it all the time, she’s got issues. But if one is simply not in the best emotional state because one suspects or knows they’ve been betrayed in some way and comes to their partner with a “question” that is framed more as an “accusation,” how the subject was broached does NOT get to be the point at hand. And in my experience, even when “accused,” if a person is innocent, they will simply say so. If they are guilty, they’ll make distinctions about tone.
The guys most of us here deal with will not brook questioning no matter what, and absolutely avoid transparency by using the “it was your tone” excuse, no matter how carefully, how respectfully, how gently we asked (which we did, because we learned that expressing normal anger over clearly being lied to was unacceptable and would yield us nothing – which should have been a red flag to simply leave, but instead trained us), we were deflected by the conversation becoming about “how we asked” instead of WHAT we asked. The shame was transferred to us.
Wow, Natalie, were you in the room with me and the AC for much of the terrible end? I bought into his lies, hook, line and sinker, because I wanted to. He walked in the door saying “trust me baby” and I did. No questions asked. When it all began to unravel, he pulled the Ruse countless times. At one point, I clearly remember him picking up a phone, threatening to call someone who would “prove” what he was saying, then distracting me with accusations of mistrust, all while slowly and subtly putting down the phone. What a performance, what a load of crap.
I do not put it past these guys to fake divorce papers – I have seen just this kind of manufactured “evidence” from the assclown. The truth of the matter is – if you have to produce fake anything in order to sustain a relationship or protect your version of the truth, something is so wrong that the only thing others can do is run away from it at full speed. I wish I had sooner, although I am proud of myself for seeing the BS at the end.
Integrity. That’s what separates the assclowns from decent people. If you need to resort to tricks to get what you want, you lack integrity and are heading into assclown territory.
Now,as has become my habit of late, I need to sit and think about this post and how it relates to me, not just him.
As many places have forms online for divorces, etc, someone with a word processor can whip up a lot of fake documents. If suspicious, contact the court system. Again, a lot of this information is public.
Uggggg…. I so remember being treated this way. And you’re right. You do end up feeling awful for even questioning them. It’s more difficult to say, “You know what? If it was the truth you wouldn’t be acting so defensively about it.”
Moving on!
BTW, many American counties and states, though not nearly all, have at least limited web access to court records to verify if a divorce case has been filed. In some areas, basic criminal information can be located. For example, if someone has been caught driving without a license, the odds are they didn’t have one at all, not that they didn’t have it on them. Of course, these are always comprehensive, so you may have to check a lot of places to find out, but it may be better to do some online checking before brining it up. There may be a reason the new bf/gf wants you to drive all the time. And since a divorce case is generally public information a phone call to the courthouse may get you the info. I don’t know that some one needs to do all this in every case, but if you have concerns, but don’t want to stir up anything without some solid facts, this may be worth it, if nothing else to put fears to rest.
Pty, once I was pulled over for speeding and didn’t have my license with me. I actually left it at home by accident. 😉
I know it does happen, as I have left my wallet at home on a few occasions. However, I am sure had I been pulled over for something, had a proven later I did have a license, I wouldn’t have had to pay a fine. So if someone is actually convicted, not just charged, with driving w/o a license, the odds are pretty good they don’t have one. And sometimes this is used as a lesser charge someone will plead guilty to rather than a more serious violation.
Again, it may not be proof, but it can be a red flag, especially if the person usually wants you to drive, doesn’t own the car they use…
Oh my god, THANK YOU for this post today. It makes me sick to recognize so much of my conniving, manipulative ex in these descriptions, but it’s him to a T — he was such a crafty liar. More of a deceiver and misleader: the statements that imply a truth, without him actually lying outright, but you don’t realize it until later. Or saying just enough to create plausible deniability. Or inviting you to call someone to confirm a lie.
I am 10 days NC and was just feeling a little weak … not that I wanted to call him, but my anger was wearing off and I was getting more sad than mad. You have renewed my resolve, with this. He is a total douche and I am LUCKY to be rid of him. I did NOT lose a wonderful man by walking away. I lost a lying, controlling, using loser.
It’s a strange mix of relief and sick when I read articles like this that confirm such behavior is not in my mind. You said, “You feel bad that they feel bad and feel guilty for having justifiable concerns which will lead you to question your judgement.” That is exactly it. He gaslighted me so much I questioned my grasp on reality. He guilted me so much I questioned my judgment. He was just SUCH A CREEP.
Julie
Totally… “lying, controlling, using, loser”… it’s so true. And
“It’s a strange mix of relief and sick when I read articles like this that confirm such behavior is not in my mind”
I completely agree, it’s worrying how much I felt I loved a man who was on the opposite team to me. A mixture of wow at least I can see what he really was -which clears up some of the hazy love memories left & then I’m left thinkin how on earth did I let it get so entrenched in sh*t?!
Oh yes, he came with a full notebook of credentials and awards for me to look at, but when I told him I had already seen his separation agreement online (my own sleuthing skills), he got annoyed. Why? Because he wanted to be in control of every aspect of my information. Unfortunately for me, I did not investigate even further when I was at his house, or I would have seen her clothes still in the closet (separation was years earlier) and her jewelry box still full. I didn’t check, because that would be “untrusting” and unsubmissive. But checking would have been INTELLIGENT. They were only separated for a year, and then they moved back into the home together. He made sure I was only there when she was not expected home. I am now trying to move out of anger into forgiveness, because I am happy without him. I’m glad for the lesson in self-esteem, but I regret that it took me YEARS to learn it! The signs were there at the first meeting. I ignored them, and gave my all to a perfect rat. I have great gratitude for this site, thank you to Natalie.
My ex ac pulled the ruse on me many times. He would set it up like I was ridiculous and that his friend he was going to call to verify his story (lie) was going to think I was crazy. He would say, “Let me call Brett and ask him if I was with another woman last night, he’s going to love this one. Your such a tripper.” Of course the call never went all the way or I stopped him for fear of looking like a fool. I was a fool. He pulled this so many times. I felt like he was lying when he did this, but his chipping away at my confidence made me doubt myself and I didn’t get out. Now that my head is clear and I have been NC for 9 months, I can look back and see the manipulation and lies clear as a bell. It doesn’t make sense to me sometimes still though. It was hard work for him to keep the lies straight and fend off the fights when he could of just left me alone like I asked him to. It would of been easier for both of us. This kind of lying is pathological in my opinion.
Such as helpful post. Especially having experienced plenty of manipulation and mind f*ckery, to the point I didnt know which way was up, let alone what to ask.
My ex would blame his son for things, like break something of mine, use my products, drink etc -which in truth I suspect he had done not his son… classy eh. He knew I was unlikely to confront his son… and why should I put his poor son through more sh*t.
Earlier on in our relationship he hoaled me over the coals about a phonecall I received early one sunday am from a guy who was a gym instructor and massueus. There was a 3 week dissapearence act the ex did whilst he was still dilly dallying at his wives. During this time I had a massage with this guy -I’d previously dated him once, but he was too yong so we just worked out at gym & stuck to that. My ex went crazy at me for best part of the day saying I must have slept with him etc. I didnt but what if I had’ve as he’d dissapeared & was at his wives! Talk about double standards, anyway he’d use this gem against me for weeks/months to cower me into submission several times over different things.
He was expert in reverse psychology & double standards, very possessive with me at start would check my phone, then as I got suspicious -he would say how he hated being checked up on etc.
Told me how manupilative his wives were & how his 1st had cheated in a horrific way. Tried to tell me I was manipulative too!!
Pretty sure he’d lie about going to see his daughter to me, as an excuse to see someone else, sometimes his son wouldnt go too, which is pretty bizarre, not to see his own sister when he could.
The ex would accuse me of trying to stop him seeing his daughter -total rubbish, I thought he should see her more. Think it was a case of he’d got his own lies so confused -he didnt know which way was up:-/
Also … not sure if it’s relevant but in terms of mind f*ckery and bizarre psychology, my ex would tell me how he hated his work colleague who kept looking at porn on his phone. He must have told me this about 4/5 or more times, saying how awful it was. I dont know why he felt the need to keep telling me, I really didnt want to know, tbh. [I could have actually told this guy’s girlfriend who lived nearby – I guess] Perhaps it bothered him as he told me he caught his 1st wife cheating on a sex film. Not sure I believe any of this though. Which is why it did get difficult as I didnt know what to believe and what not to believe. Making me doubt myself.
Earlier on in our relationship he showed me a short film of some type of porn on his phone where you could see the back of the girl had who had similar hair and look to me. He said his friend had sent it to him saying it could be me!! Considering I have not even been properly introduced to this friend and sat in the car the time we went to see him briefly, it seems rather odd. I said it definitely wasn’t me in the film (he was trying to make me feel guilty and bad and wrong again), He said, “well you could have been filmed and not known it”…
Dunno about you but it all seems to add up to him being the one interested in this weird stuff & maybe it’s not everyone else around him. Though it makes me feel sick to say that, which is probaby why its easier to be in denial about it or gloss over it.
The other weird guilt trip thing he tried to spin on me -was an occassion where I went to a theme park with a girl friend (near me & miles away from him). He said one of his friends was there and had spotted me there flirting with other guys! I mean the place was packed with people, you’d be lucky to find someone that you intended to, let alone anyone else.
Looking back I really dont know why I just accepted these weird guilt games he was trying to play on me. Maybe coz I just didnt know what else to do or say.
Never again!
No way. Tell me this can’t happen. I’m struggling with NC and looking forward to a healthy relationship one day. Oh dear, I can see it is going to be tricky. I just thought if I stayed away from married men, things might get better. Back to the drawing board for me. Thank you.
@LostEnergy
What I get from this is he was trying to see if you were interested in porn. That’s my opinion. Instead of coming out and asking you if were interested and wanted to watch (or film) some. If he asked straight out you might reject him.
You should have said to him “were you following me at the park? That’s a little scarey? Are you that insecure that you would play this mind game with me?” Hahaahah
Aimee
Yes, I should have said that, could have said alot of things like that, really wish I had. I guess sometimes I was just Shocked SILLY!! That I couldnt find the motivation to confront it.
With the porn -he did once ask me if I wanted to watch a film -but I declined as it’s not my personal preference. I think that there’s maybe quite alot of EUMs that have addictions to this and it’s seriously affecting thier ability to relate to real women in a real way. Dodgy.
I guess this is where boundries come in… if we know we’d be unhappy about something that we think they’re hiding/lying about then it’s hitting one of our boundaries. Its scary how they have a knack of encouraging us to dissassociate ourselves further and further away from our own selves and own self esteem.
@LostEnergy
“I guess sometimes I was just Shocked SILLY!! ”
That was me – I just couldn’t believe some of the things he did or said – shocked me into stupidity!!!! I would vacillate between – is he really that cunning? or really that STUPID?? LOL
The Ruse trick is as old as prostitution. 😐 Thank goodness that one of my degrees is in Psychology. 😉
The Ruse is the dirtiest trick, in my opinion, for all the reasons you stated: these assclowns KNOW that they’re lying, they manipulate you to the point of mind-f***ing you, they make themselves look like martyrs, and they just don’t give a f**k. The ONLY thing that The Ruse assclowns care about is getting caught – not you, not your feelings, not any negative consequences that you may sustain from their mind-f***ing….. just getting caught. Make like Forrest and RUN FORREST RUN when you hear this sh!t in your ears.
Sam: my college ex pulled The Ruse too. Took me a while to figure it out (I blame it on youth in my situation) but that’s exactly what it was. He got together with the girl who I had my suspicions about, oh-so-coincidentally after we broke up (he just stopped calling out of the blue).
Hopefully he’s matured by now….. Doubt it though. *shrugs*
My ex of a couple of years ago was a ruse expert. I got to the point where if he said “(such and such) said this about you” or “you can ask (whoever) I would ring them in front of him and hit them up about it. The ruse is the best friend of the reset button and complete arsehole behaviour. My best friend is “flush” lol
my ex used to ask me all the time.What on earth have i done to give you the impression that im not being faithful.he had a bunch of women calling him sugar daddy,sexy boo and hotstuff on his facebook page.he had all these recent pictures of naked girls on his laptop and for some reason some chic had an extra key to his house.i dumped him a few months later but i wished i had run over him with the bus then….
This post was a useful recap for me and I could see how much I’ve moved on now. I’ve done some dating and had a fling over the last 8 months since breaking and going NC after being’ in-love’ for 3 years with a particularly nasty uber-EU assclown narcissistic abusive hateful liar, who had a harem of broken women, one of which was me.
Nat’s statement —- ”How much you try to teach or how much you’ll listen will govern how ‘deep’ you’ll get into a bad situation” — is the key for me in my new way of being. I find that on occasion my good female friends try to get me to ‘teach’ or ‘ask’ a man I’m dating for clarity on some EU nonsense or other that has emerged. Whereas I prefer to instantly hit the ‘flush’ handle at the first whisper of a red or orange flag …. I ‘flush’ and walk and dont look over my shoulder as I shout ….
”next please ” ? !
Thank you Natalie et al X
just to add to Pty’s post, it’s so very easy to get all kinds of information on a person online for free or at a very nominal (under $10, or $20 for complete records). This can be done whenever your sensors go off, or routinely w. any potential dating partner.
And the partner need never know, which short circuits all the drama of feigning hurt at being “distrusted.” As well, it saves us the hyperventilating about whether or not we are being led on. We should lead! Be proactive and find out for ourselves!
Besides marital status, wouldn’t you want to know if he/she was convicted of assault, drunken driving, drug possession or sale, fraud, or worse? There are some real gems out there that worm their way into an innocent person’s trust.
It is the way of the world today and not just in regard to dating. Wouldn’t you want to use technology to protect the investment you may be making w. your heart as carefully as your other valued assets?
It’s so funny how this post coincides with wut happened to me last night. I heard a voicemail left on my bf’s phone. A girl…..a voice I didn’t quite recognize. She was highly upset. Telling him how she’s good enuff to sleep with and good enuff to borrow $ from, but not good enuff to respect. And according to her, he apparently told her the last time they talked was going to b the last conversation they were gonna have. Should that make me feel better? No. Bc he shouldn’t of been cheating on me in the 1st place. I told him I found this out by some girl on facebook bc I couldn’t tell him I heard his messages. So he said its some girl who is jealous, and wants to hurt us. But I know different. She left it on his personal voicemail that only HE hears. And he is preaching his fidelity, wanting to be a “good” man. He’s messed up so much in the past and wants to prove he can b the man I need. If that’s all true….y is he still doing this to me? Its not the first time bc I’ve been going thu this for 5 yrs. That’s plenty of time to change. And he hasn’t yet. And the physical abuse on top of his cheating has made this relationship and my life miserable. I can’t deny who he is any longer. I can’t twist the facts into something I can handle. Live in denial just to stay his gf. I’m devastated and so scared to leave. But my future with him looks bleak. And I’ve stayed for so many years with hope of change. But…..I’ve decided, I just can’t do this to myself anymore.
Sianna,
It’s time to get out! You know he will NEVER change, it’s who he is.
Hon, you had a life before him and you will have a life after him-Which will be much better.
Are you seeking counseling or any outside help?
These descriptions are so familiar that I swear, a couple of times I wondered if my ex was dating one of you ladies!
Needed to hear this today. I’ve been feeling a little orphaned and alone in the world the past couple of days and feeling pangs of nostalgia for having the ex in my life: even though my heart was being toyed with, my heart was at least actually engaged with someone besides me, and sometimes when I’m feeling lonely I miss that ‘engagement.’
But I must remember that the ex-ac did things that made me ask myself, and vocalize to him more than once, if he had it in him to coerce underage girls and/or buy street sex. The one time he did something rather disturbing was in the company of his friends’ pre-teen daughter, and when I pulled him aside to address it, he gave me a song and dance and then immediately went into the other room, to the parents of the girl, and told them all my fears, as if I was being ridiculous and *only* reliving fears from my own childhood. The Ruse was putting them in the position of saying, “Oh my god, of course we know that this is just how we behave around each other. I’m sure that (girl) isn’t bothered by you.” Then he was basically like, see, how can you question me? Even the girl’s parents know I’m harmless.
I mean, what were the parents supposed to say? I still feel totally weirded out and mindf*cked, remembering that episode.
Magnolia,
I want to offer my support. Being alone and not being lonely is tricky business. Some days I’m filled with hope and excitment about the future and then other times I feel just like you. A bit disconnected. But we know we cannot go back to those mind and heart games. Right?
The ruse you describe with the ex and the young girl was wrong, and if you don’t mind me saying, a bit creepy. I’m glad for you, you don’t have to put up with that anymore. It’s sad though for the young girls.
How did we let these guys get so under our skin? Nevermind, I know now. Hang in there.
Magnolia
Like you I have days where I really miss him and think ‘oh but he was perfect at this, great at that -where will I meet someone like that, as good as that, as gorgeous, tall, good looking, that can do all that?’
But – when I listen to the other more common feelings, the weird feeling, sinking stomach, latent fear, being weirded out, never really knowing, feeling pitted against other women, feeling never quite good enough, feeling duped & deceived, feeling guilty, paranoid, stupid, less than, feeling *alone* in the realtionship, feeling unsupported … how can that feel like love?
TBH, there’s a couple of other things that were very weird about my ex, cant bring myself to write them down here. The power of not wanting to believe the worst but believe the best is so strong.
At least we’ve got to a stage in our lives where we can see the wood for the trees and choose a life we really want 🙂
“Like you I have days where I really miss him and think ‘oh but he was perfect at this, great at that -where will I meet someone like that, as good as that, as gorgeous, tall, good looking, that can do all that?’
But – when I listen to the other more common feelings, the weird feeling, sinking stomach, latent fear, being weirded out, never really knowing, feeling pitted against other women, feeling never quite good enough, feeling duped & deceived, feeling guilty, paranoid, stupid, less than, feeling *alone* in the realtionship, feeling unsupported … how can that feel like love? ”
Spot on. Took the thoughts right out of my head!
I haven’t dated anyone since the xEUM and that was nearly a year ago, so when I get pangs of loneliness my mind automatically thinks of the ‘good times’ with him. I just turn through the countless pages in my journal when I sounded so depressed, lonely and down on myself to snap out of it. I will never let any guy make me feel so down about myself ever again!
TeaTime
I find it really helps to know other people have been through similar -it makes me feel more balanced and ‘smart’ in a way that were sussing things out together and getting on top of our lives. At least were smart enough to progress to knowing that we want better now, even if we couldnt see the wood for the trees previously.
Ohhhh yes, my AC pulled that when I drove past him on the same street when he was supposed to be taking a nap. When I drove past his favorite restaurant and saw him come out of the restaurant with another woman, I texted him asking who she was. He was furious. Serial liars always have a quick explanation and can easily make us feel like WE are the crazy ones and didn’t see what we thought we saw. Of course after that he was constantly accusing me of being too untrusting, etc. Well, when he’s always got an excuse for not being able to get together, how can you not mistrust? Although I’ve broken the NC with him, he is not welcome back in my life and I know better than to allow him to waste a second of my time. Thanks as always Nat for thoughtful insight!!
There is also the blowing up like a child routine, your so shocked at their outburst that you kinda pull back or get confused as to what is going on. If you couple that with someone who then does the withdrawal method hot/cold you get even more freaked out as you realise your question has 1. caused an outburst designed to confuse and make you feel bad 2. he is about to withdraw all love for how ever long he see’s fit. Suddenly he is saying you dont feel right to me, im not sure about you, nice! You start to learn not to question anything no matter how obvious it is they are lieing or that you have a right to because you feel your boundarys are being crossed. Instead you question yourself. After being jerked around for 15 months the lies got bigger, then when he dumped me and i decided to move on from him altogther that being do NC for my own sanity, he played the victim at work. With pathetic quotes like “why wont she talk to me, i didnt mean to hurt her” or emails being sent to me calling me immature and not handling things the right way. Meaning HIS way, my terms or ill crack it, standard. When he left he told me I had trust issues and i should deal with them. Strange though as the only person who ever screamed, cracked it, had out burst or stormed off due to jealousy, possesive, controlling issues, was him.
They take no responsabilty for their own actions, it was all lumped on me right to the end. The guys is and was a complete waste of space. Because i work with him the one good thing about that is i get to watch from a far as he still acts the same. Intersting isnt it? wonder if even though i havnt spoken to him for a year its still all my fault 🙂
My ex-AC was a lot like yours. He wouldn’t necessarily offer to let me call someone and verify his credibility, but instead would blow up, and then create distance between us. And it worked on me, as I would be so afraid of losing him, and all my focus would be on re-establishing closeness. I even apologized to him a couple of times, just to try to keep the peace. It worked every time, except for the last time. I was fed up with it, and called him on it, and that was the end of it for us. I told him that behavior didn’t work for me, and his response? More silence and distance. He would not even discuss it. So I stopped trying. I was no longer his to toy around with, so he had no use for me anymore.
And then he did the same thing your guy did. He acted all wounded and hurt, and told everyone I would not talk to him anymore.
I’m pretty sure these clowns, even a year later, still think it’s our fault.
I agree with your last comment but thankfully i dont even care if he does still think its all my fault. One of the many reasons i could not be friends with him is because i would be forced in to having to believe his truth, his version of the truth and i just couldnt do it.
He basically said, its over but i want us to remain best friends which i did for around 8 weeks until i realised what a nightmare i was trapped in. We were to never discuss the past, it was as if i had to wipe my memory completly of our 15 month relationship where we were extremely close and saving to move out. What i realise now is that he basically trivialised our whole realtionship by trying to pretend it never really happend or meant anything. Extremely hurtful. Within that 8 weeks of being friends he insisted he spend my birthday with me, he came over and we did all our normal fav things, he bought over expensive gifts as well. I sat there the whole time thinking WTF? how confusing? In that 8 weeks i never ever allowed anything sexual to happen, even if he tried to hug me hello or good bye id freeze up. im glad to be rid of him 🙂
Trinity
Sounds like he was seriously pressing the Reset button and trying to erase the past. You sound really strong now and know that he’s a waste of time. Good for you 🙂
:O Oh my gosh, it’s exactly the same here with my ex! Except it was my idea to try and stay friends initially. But now I’m seeing that that’s a big mistake, because bit by bit he’s trying to twist it into a relationship. I miss you => I love you => baby this, baby that => (next predictable step) well we’re practically dating anyway why not just get back together?
My own passivity has sown the crop I’m now reaping. We’re not together, even if he’d like to think otherwise. But I can totally relate to what you said about having to live by his “truth” and not discuss anything from the past, and if I say anything about the past, or remind him that we’re broken up or that I’m sticking to my guns, or that I’m uncomfortable with the pet names, it turns into a huge argument, after which I feel guilty and let him do it anyway. (Again, working on the passivity.) I’m now well aware of the trouble I was in by staying in that relationship, and the trouble I’m in now by keeping the door open even an inch, because if you give him an inch, he’ll take a mile. And not just here, either. This article and these comments are truly a blessing! Thank God!
Trinity
It’s a relief to know others have experienced similar; the feeling shocked, confused, bewildered, guilty etc. My ex also said “I’m not sure about you” right to my face.
Think in response I tried to do my own version of ‘one time in band camp’ woe stories, although I was actually facing a couple of hard situations… th elogic of plying ‘his’ game never paid off. he was about as likely to try and be Florence Nightingale as he could be Superman.
Hi Ladies and NML,
My former a/c also used this tactic on me when we were together. He had a ‘friend’ at his home one evening when I called and he had never mentioned her before (he was always evasive when I asked about his ‘friends’). He said he would tell me about it the next day but my gut feeling told me that there was something not quite right with this, as he could tell me anything the next day and I would be none the wiser. I went around to his place and knocked on the door. There was dissaproval in his face, and the woman left within 10 minutes of me being there. I asked him about his moaning when I knocked on the door, and he admitted to sitting on the floor between her legs and getting his head massaged, and snapped that he is a very physical person. He said “sweetie you are going to destroy this”. The following day he sent me an email to say that he cannot go out with a girl that doesn’t trust him and that all the time and effort he put in has been a waste. I learnt that the woman at his place was a former client (like me), that he had been involved in a casual sexual relationship with her.
He was always very evasive about his ‘friends’, and didn’t want me meeting another one of his female ‘friends’, as he said that she didn’t want to meet me. I now realise that the reason for him not being open about his friendships were because they were other women he had been involved with, and some were clients. It seems that he didn’t want any of us meeting one another, perhaps because we may learn the truth about his character and professional conduct. Oh boy, was I blindsighted by him.
Unfortunately, I am still having problems with this a/c three years later with manufactured accusations being used against me to bring me to Court. Oh they can misrepresent themselves so well, and lie covertly. How am I able to prove myself innocent against an extremely manipulative man. I was a nervous wreck with him, and I am a nervous wreck again. I don’t want to engage with him in any way!
NML, I thank-you from the bottom of my heart as I had no idea about red flags, but now I have learnt to pay attention and to honour my gut instinct. I am here to stay, to keep…
As a man, I can safely say this guy was an A/c
My god, honestly that guy is a jerk.
Can you imagine for one moment the shoe being on the other foor?
“oh sure i never told you he was here, i was just sitting between his legs getting my head massaged”
The to turn it onto you and say THAT YOU ARE going to destroy this? You? not the guy who is lying and also crossing boundarys with other females. Then he dumped you and took no responsabilty for his actions. What a creep!!!
The fact that this guy dates clients is a violation of general good practices. I’m assuming he’s a doctor or psychologist. There are clear understandings that people in these positions should not become personal friends with clients while treating them nor within at least two years of being in a professional relationship with them, and many advocate never getting into a sexual relationship. I had some flirtation with a counsellor once, and in hindsight the reality of his poor behaviour in taking advantage of my emotional vulnerability (I mean, we PAY these people not to take advantage) is disappointing and embarrassing (that I took it for healthy attention). The client boundary violation alone is indication of major AC behaviour.
Great post the Ruse, I realise I listened to a lot of this stuff before NC, I am in third attempt at NC and because I did the S and see 6 weeks ago I feel I have what I need as when I did my feelings had changed (at last) I didnt feel anything, he was stranger to me that before like the fantasy I had built up was a different man. Keep going keep it up, like all of you there are times I feel sad and miss (him?) or it..whatever but for the most part I am definitely happier and more my own person, when he surfaces again I won’t feel any temptation to listen to his lies, manipulation, abuse and control I am awake thanks to BR
I am getting counseling. I’ve only been to a few sessions but I like her a lot. And I hope it helps.
Sianna,
Do you support this fool?
@ allison. Yes I do.
I thought so.
This man abuses you emotionally and physically, he is a serial cheater and you support him. What in the world are getting from this?????
Him abusing Sianna is about power. He can convince himself that in spite of the fact that she’s supporting him, that he’s the big man in charge. He’s also a freeloader. Sianna may inadvertently have got used to that one hold that she has on him and it may seem like the fact that he needs her in this way is a weird kind of love. It’s the extreme end of Florence Nightingaling. Like a form of controlling your environment and experiences even though they’re unpleasant.
Unfortunately, it is a dangerous and scary situation.
I agree about the power thing. I have seen it happen in business as well, where the person who runs the business (and has no financial input) is disrespectful and arrogant towards the financial backer of the business. They feel one-down in the relationship, financially, and so try to take the other person down by whatever style of mistreatment they can see fit to use.
Come to think of it, I had first-hand experience of something similar with my ex-husband. It wasn’t about money, but I felt one-down in the beginning of that relationship, mainly due to the fact that I shared with him all my issues and baggage, and he seemed to be perfect. I then found out he had a dirty little secret, and the dynamic swung the other way for a while. I freely admit, that while his behavior was hurtful, I was relieved to finally have the upper hand…to sort of balance things back out. It’s not a healthy reaction, I know this now. But it made me aware of how important it is to come to a relationship with mutual respect for each other, and how that dynamic of one person, in any way, appearing to be above the other, is counterproductive to having a healthy relationship.
I read a spectacular book today for anyone who has been on the receiving end of the Ruse. It’s called “The Day I Went Missing” by Jennifer Miller. It is the true story of a woman who was taken in by a pathological therapist. She was needy and wanted to believe him. He future faked, threw up all kinds of deceptions, including faked documents and phone calls, and ended up bilking her out of over $100,000 in just a year. What was so interesting was that, even at the end of the book, all she really cared about was whether he had actually loved her, as he said he had. She saw warning signs, and had others around her cautioning her about what was happening but she wouldn’t listen. She needed what he was pretending to give her and was blind to everything else. She trusted absolutely, even to an extent that seems ridiculous to anyone on the outside. I highly recommend it to anyone who has been played by a real con artist. She writes well and is very honest about why it worked on her and how she kept convincing herself the red flags weren’t there. It was in many ways like reading about my last relationship, minus the therapy.
Yes, I think NML is right. It makes me feel good that he needs me financially @ times. Bc he doesn’t need me in any other way. But I also resent it @ the same time bc he treats me so badly and I feel VERY unappreciated. But I want to be the one he needs. I know it sounds screwed up. And it is. But I’m being honest. I swear, if he told me he plans to continue to cheat and hit me…..i’d run, not walk from him. But hope he will come to his senses, and treat me the way I deserve….as he says he wants to, has got me paralyzed.
Sianna you have to look at how the deck is stacked
You – financial dependence (read needing to be needed)
Him – cheating and beating and being a general asshole (read needing to take his power back)
You’re being played.
If someone said to you ‘you know what? I’m not going to change. I’m going to take your money and abuse you’, I’d like to think you’d leave. But people don’t say stuff like that. He is also playing to your sense of need and wielding that power by letting you believe there is a better man wanting to be in a better relationship hidden in there. There isn’t. He is never going to tell you that he’s not going to change as he’ll lose is power.
He claims back the power he thinks you have over him by abusing you. The deck is stacked heavily against you.
Needing you for money is not love – it’s using you as a human ATM.
Sianna, a person doesn’t have to speak to communicate. A man can knock another to the ground without saying a word. A dog can chew your face off without telling you about it. You don’t have to hear him tell you you’re being mistreated to know you’re being mistreated. I’m sure countless women have drawn a line in the sand and said “if he does this, I’m leaving …” We put that condition in place so we don’t have to do anything.
The first step to self-respect is making the decisions that affect your life. Don’t wait for him to make those decisions for you. Who the hell is he that he gets to do that? Even God gives you free will!
Well that was a harsh reality check but its ok. Bc I need to hear it. I have talked about this abusive, miserable relationship for a very long time now. On this site, with my family, friends and now a therapist. He’s done just about every possible disrespectful thing u can do to someone. Yet my heart and head seem to be on a different planet. But as one reader wrote to me “the longer u stay its almost like ur abusing urself, really”. So, I think the only thing to do is just leave. LEAVE. No more thinking and rationalizing and hoping and praying and crying. Just end it. Without anymore discussions about it. Just take the plunge. Bc all the horrible shit he’s done to me hasn’t made me budge. Its time to stop thinking so much. And start acting. At this point, I feel its the only thing that’s going to save me.
Sianna, you use your heart for feeling and your head for thinking and when the heart feels stuff that is not in your best interests and opens you up to abuse, the head trumps it every time, in the same way that it would if you were letting your libido make your judgments for you. You’re right – thinking and talking about it only goes so far. Remove his power – right now he believes you’ll never leave. Shrink his power and never allow anyone to have that kind of hold over you ever again. Use the therapist to make sense of what you’ve involved in but also to help you get out of the relationship safely.
Thank you NML. For taking the time to speak to me directly. And everyone on this site. I will make the right decision. And will keep u posted.
@ Sianna
I just wanted to wish you luck and let you know I am thinking about you, and wishing you well!! I left a physically, verbally and emotionally abusive man 22 years ago. You CAN do it. It will hurt at first, but it only gets BETTER! Trust me!! Blessings to you!
I just read this post and WOW, WOW it spoke to me. My spouse has admitted to having an emotional affair, after I discovered it several years AFTER the fact. He denies anything physical occured. The deception, however was there and the relationship was very inappropriate. I have PROOF of some of the written communication. He has VOLUNTEERED to take a polygraph test. I am seriously considering it, though I hate that I would resort to that. But it was put on the table a while ago, and maybe I should take him up on this before I make my plans “definite”. Do you suppose the offer of the poly is a ruse? I know, I probably sound like the most naive person around, and I feel that way. But we’ve been married a long time (15 yrs) and so I want to be SURE before I exit the relationship….the polygraph. Is this a poker ploy, or should I ask to “see his hand” so to speak? HELP!! Any input would be a Godsend.
Thank you!
Anon, what you do know for sure is that your spouse has lied to you, and engaged in an inappropriate relationship. It sounds like, if the polygraph test indicated that he was lying — that he’d actually had sex with this person — you would feel more justified in leaving him. Even if he has not had sex…the point is that you don’t trust him. How will you feel, being married to someone you don’t trust? Does he have any regrets about his actions? Does he recognize that the relationship was inappropriate, and take responsibility for his actions, or is he just making excuses and blaming everyone but himself?
Hi and thank you for replying back. He recognizes that he did something that was wrong and he has told me he regrets it, and is not proud of it. HOWEVER, I do know that when he was recently talking to his best friend (male) of 30+ years, his friend questioned him and asked if there was infidelity or anything like that going on. His answer was “no”. He didn’t breathe one word of the emotional affair to his best friend, all of that was left out.
Sooooooo….I wonder why did he hide that from his bf when he was asked a direct question. Does he not consider an EA infidelity? I have emails and other communication which clearly shows that they discussed (him and the other lady) a LOT of things, including if she would take his potential custody case of our child….she was a LAWYER, by the way. She told him she would be the worst person for a custody case because of her interest in the client. Still, he swears nothing physical happened.
I am in such a bad place right now (emotionally) — not only that he has some issues with his emotions/anger/communication.
Thank you for listening!! Feel free to provide any feedback or input. Thank you!!
Anon
I’m sceptical – I don’t think people go as far as talking about custody of their children unless there has been sex or some level of physical intimacy. Bear in mind that some don’t consider oral sex to be full sex (so adolescent!). I don’t consider emotional affairs to be cheating myself (I still wouldn’t like it). But if you do, it’s kind of academic whether they actually had sex? Are you looking for reasons to stay? You say he has issues with anger, so even if this EA hadn’t happened, would you still be happy?
The polygraph test doesn’t really prove anything, otherwise they’d be using them in court.
If you don’t have trust you don’t have anything. You’re married, you’re supposed to the only one. Does it feel that way?
AnonReader, I think both he and you are missing the point in this situation. This comes down to a fundamental difference of values – he didn’t and likely doesn’t consider ’emotional cheating’ cheating. You do. While he can try to convince you it’s not and you can try to convince him that it is, that is to miss the point – your relationship has problems. Big ones and certainly big enough that he would discuss custody of your child with this woman, which incidentally is somewhat unprofessional. I have friends that have experienced emotional cheating – in some respects it can be more devastating than if they were shagging around. Unfortunately it’s the precursor to sex and whether he wants to call it cheating or not, for a period of time he checked out on your relationship and was emotionally connected with another woman. Men don’t talk about stuff in the same way that women do and if he didn’t want to tell his friend whether they’d been mates for 100 years or 2, that’s his prerogative. You’re still missing the point.
Look at this way: Either something physical happened and he’s dripfeeding the truth or something didn’t and yet he was still prepared to talk custody etc. Either way, big problems. You don’t need to focus on the emails or her or his friend – you need to focus on your relationship and until you both address what the issues are, whatever they are, your relationship cannot move forward, especially without trust. If you can’t trust that you have the whole truth and nothing but the truth, you’re at an impasse.
Personally, offering a polygraph test is shaky ground – he probably thinks that suggesting one makes his word his bond. Take him up on his offer. If he says that it means that you don’t trust him, it’s because you don’t and telling you something years after the fact is all the more reason not to trust. If he doesn’t like it, he shouldn’t have made an insincere offer.