Reading through comments and emails and observing relationships and people, I am struck by the overuse of the words ‘truth’ and ‘honesty’ and how people mix them up or are selective in how much truth and honesty that they want. To have a positive relationship with yourself and healthy interpersonal relationships, as part of being emotionally available and being authentic, being honest is paramount.
When something is ‘true’ it’s an indisputable fact with evidence to substantiate it.
When you are being ‘honest’ it means you are speaking/acting without deceit and are sincere.
In relationships, we often say and promise things that we believe to be ‘true’ at the time (Future Faking and Fast Forwarding are extreme examples).
Unfortunately feelings and intentions change and you can only ever know the truth in something attached to someone else’s feelings and promises as a result of the actions that materialise.
They really could have meant it at the time…however if they are not emotionally available and honest with themselves, it means they can only mean it as far as the city limits of their honesty…which may not be very far.
If you make room for denial in your life, it leads to dishonest thinking, speech, actions, and relationships/interactions.
As a result, if you’re bandying around the words ‘true’ and ‘honest’ while at the same time engaging in some level of denial, needless to say that you are lacking authenticity.
Sometimes hearing the truth hurts because it’s the truth, and sometimes the person who is delivering the truth is ‘mean’ and cloaking it with the word ‘honesty’. They deny stuff about themselves or their part in something so as a result, they have to be mean to keep their version of the truth.
Some people say they believe in being ‘honest’ but when they experience honesty that doesn’t fit around what they want to hear or see, they deny it or get angry with the other party.
These are examples of selective honesty. It’s not that you can never have a harsh word to say or that you can’t be upset when you do get honesty, but if the only type of honesty you can cope with is your version of it, you’ve got problems.
Honesty involves being prepared to hear and say things that make you uncomfortable with respect.
You have to process ‘feedback’ so that you take action and/or adjust any assumptions and expectations that you have prior to the ‘feedback’.
If you don’t recognise the importance of having good self-esteem, healthy boundaries, and the link with your values, you will discover that there is a disconnect between what you say, think, and the actions that result, and their impact on others. You wont understand why you’re experiencing negative situations.
Having good self-esteem requires you to be honest with yourself which ensures that you feel all of your feelings, good, bad, or indifferent and that you are emotionally available. As a result, you will give and receive feedback.
If you don’t have boundaries or recognise code amber and code red behaviour it means that you miss out on the primary opportunity for feedback in your life.
People who have low self-esteem don’t give feedback via their boundaries.
Take dating which I believe is a discovery phase for each of you to discover the facts about one another. If you’re not honest and you have little or no boundaries, don’t register and act on code amber and red behaviour, you are not receiving, processing or reacting to feedback – instead you are loving and trusting blindly.
You need to be honest and use feedback to love healthily.
Ever kept chasing and loving someone that wasn’t interested, repeatedly rejected you, or treated you badly? You’re not receiving, processing, and reacting to feedback, which is dishonest and will at best have you taken advantage of, and at worst, abused.
If you’re the type of person whose imagination runs wild or has a tendency to create big dramatisations out of other people’s shady behaviour, you’re not being honest with yourself either. If you were, not only would you be too busy living in reality, but instead of overthinking someone else’s shady behaviour, which ends up weaving in some denial, you’d say ‘Hey they did X,Y, Z and I know that’s completely inappropriate and that it reflects their poor character. FLUSH!’
You wouldn’t be saying ‘OMG! They did X,Y,Z! Why did they do that? What is it about me? What could I have done differently?’ When you do this you are being dishonest about what they have done and not using the feedback that you got along with your knowledge of boundaries, code red and amber behaviour etc to guide you.
If you want a healthy, honest relationship, be honest and don’t let denial take up residence with rose tinted glasses and a fur coat of denial.
If you listen to lies, make excuses, see meaning where there is no meaning, or you minimise inappropriate stuff, you are lying to yourself. Actively.
We are not all the same. One person’s idea of the ‘truth’ is another person’s idea of deluded. Two people can experience the same situation and have entirely different interpretations – ever broken up, debriefed and wondered if you were both talking about the same relationship?
When you’re authentic and honest, you can smell bullshit from a mile off plus you look for actions to back up words.
Don’t take the attitude of ‘Well I do this’ and ‘I believe that’ and assume everyone is the same as you – that’s like believing that everyone thinks, acts, and feels the same; the world isn’t clones of you.
Have an honest conversation with yourself and evaluate the reality of you and your life, not the story you tell yourself. Until the summer of 2005, I told myself that I was having an extended run of bad luck, that ‘they’ had issues, that I worked very hard at relationships, and that someone would be attracted because I was attractive, smart, outgoing and then discover that ‘flaw’ that made me difficult to love. If I kept up that line of honesty, I’d still be a Fallback Girl telling myself whatever let me stay in my comfort zone.
Get on a Bullshit Diet, and ensure that you are being authentic and emotionally available. Honesty isn’t always easy but it’s necessary.
Your thoughts?
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Natalie, that was truly awesome. Speaking personally, as a Fallback Girl the lies I told myself got me in way more trouble than any lie the man on the other end of the equation ever told me. From reading this blog, I think the most valuable lesson I learned is that if you are feeling uncomfortable, don’t talk yourself out of it. Whether they mean it at the time, they don’t and they are outright lying, or whatever the case may be, if you know your own truth and aren’t worried that you will “miss out” if you stand up for it, you will save yourself a boatload of grief.
I love how you put that, Natasha – I feel like cheering!
I’ve learned to trust myself and my gut feelings – when I look back at my past relationships, I realise I always, without exception, felt uncomfortable or uneasy or troubled – whatever – but convinced myself I was being neurotic. I think I misunderstood some self-help stuff, and over-questioned myself!! Bloody exhausting… So glad I decided I don’t have to do that any more.
Natalie, your sage advice has been my fast-track to sanity. THANK YOU!!
“I always, without exception, felt uncomfortable or uneasy or troubled” FROM THE BEGINNING – I meant to say
Natasha,
So true about being worried that you’ll ‘miss out’, I have definitely worried about this and sometimes still continue too:-/ But yes, knowing about our own truth , paying attnetion to myself, my feelings, instincts, needs and preferences and being authentic helps to irradicate that ‘missing out’ feeling, with time 🙂
Having the self esteem to pull away rather than ignore things to myself (which has had scary volume in my last relationship) is the way forward x
Ladies, all I can say is…look how far we’ve come!! Sofiexx, I was always convincing myself that I was just being neurotic too! Natalie has talked about looking at the external evidence to back up how you’re feeling and I found that to be a HUGE help. LostEnergy, I have been the undisputed queen of being afraid of so-called “missing out”, so I soooooo understand how you feel. I think we’re all going to find that by learning from our mistakes and heeding the warning signs, we’re going to be gaining a heck of a lot more good stuff in our lives than “losing” anything 🙂 Big hugs to you ladies! xx
Another topic I’ve been waiting for! 🙂 I was thinking also about honesty going in parallel with clear communication. Let’s go back to the case of my EUM / AC ex (summer fling pseudo-relationship). It was pretty much a typical case: at first he was quickly out in hot pursuit, blew hot, then, after a short while started blowing cold without an explanation. Namely, he started throwing a few mean and inconsiderate gestures my way, like using every excuse to avoid “alone” time, or, worst of all, hinting at trying to have a “private appointment” (his own words) with one of our mutual female friends. The day after, I broke up with him via e-mail, where the bottom line was: “although I still have feelings for you, I don’t like unclear situation and game playing, and I certainly don’t want to be part of a harem. I think I deserve more than that!” I was very firm about what bothered me. He never replied, and each of us went our own ways, as the summer holiday was coming. What I’m trying to say is that I would have prefered him to be honest and upfront, like: “I’m sorry, but I don’t want a relationship” or “I don’t think it’s gonna work out between us”. Simple and straightforward! Without offending, without dramatizing. It would have been way better than acting like an assclown without any explanation, especially taking into consideration our mutual life context (i.e. being colleagues in the same organization). Would that have been too much to ask?
Needless to say that in autumn, when we saw each other again, for a while he was acting as if I had done something bad to him. But then, after a couple of months, he started blowing hot again, by pressing the reset button. I allowed him to get closer, but not all the way, as I had decided not to take him back until he addressed last summer’s issues. On one hand, he managed to *appear* like a different, better person, but he disappointed me again (some of you might remember the story earlier this month). When we had our last argument, it was the FIRST and LAST time in my life that I suggested meeting up and talking about everything, to set things straight. Guess what? He avoided the issue. Again, would that have been so difficult to say YES or NO?
Now…
Sandra81 – I think, in the case of the AC, when they act nasty and rude, that is their version of honesty. It’s like, “I’ve faked being a nice person, now here’s who I really am.” If they were respectful and upfront about not wanting a realtionship, we wouldn’t be calling them assclowns! I was in a similar situation – i.e. instead of doing this, the AC in question made some nasty remarks about my religion. I thought the same thing and then it finally occured to me that, at long, last he WAS being upfront about who he really was. I really believe that a decent man is not going to say “Hmmm, I want out of this thing. I’m going to act really nasty and insult the hell out of her until she takes the hint.” It seems to me that you are a smart lady who really dodged a bullet with this guy! 🙂
Eh, Natasha… I live in a continuous “inner conflict” between reason and feelings, though. It’s true that I didn’t let him walk all over me, but I’m still hurting, and, I must admit, missing the happy times. Talking in Baggage Reclaim terms, I’ve been a mix of “being blinded by lust” and the “I can change him syndrome / betting on potential”. I’ve been linking his attitude with being young and immature (he’s 26), and I was hoping that by growing up he would change. Hmmm… God knows! Now we’ve been in “no contact” for 3 weeks. But I feel a slight whiff of a reset button again: posting on facebook lots of depressed links and sad love songs. This is what he used to do when we first broke up! 😀 Somehow I feel amused, somehow I feel sorry for him, although I shouldn’t… It’s tough, but at least I know that this distance I took right now will be beneficial in the long-run. But your ex, making nasty remarks about your religion… In my opinion, things like religion, race or nationality should never be used as a “weapon” to offend! Plus, everyone is special in his/her own way. And if he had a problem with it, why did he stay with you in the first place? Hypocrite 🙁
Sandra, we all live with that conflict I think! If there was no lust/I can change him syndrome/betting on potential/remembering the good times, these things would be nice and cut and dry. Natalie once said something about figuring out how you feel consistently as a result of being around someone and I think it’s a huge help when it comes to sorting our how you feel 🙂 I have been in your shoes, because my ex was another one that kept coming back with the “I’ve changed, I’m a better person” line and I never saw how nasty he could be until he future faked/fast forwarded like there was a relationship in the offing and I came to behave like I was in one. The sad part is, I don’t even know for sure that he had a problem with my religion or if he just wanted to hurt my feelings/prod me into dumping his ass. I give you a lot of credit for walking away and I really mean it when I say you have a great head on your shoulders! 🙂
Thanks! 🙂 The only thing I’m sorry about right now is that, as i said before, we are both in this organization for young people, It’s not a proper job, but it’s an activity I love. But since our argument, I’ve been consistently avoiding shared activities, including this evening. Last week, though, I went to a party and he was there too. We only said “hello” and “goodbye” to each other, but we didn’t speak to each other at all, and I always tried to mingle with other friends. I’m trying not to look like I’m giving up on something I love because of him, but I find it really hard to be around him… 🙁 And I wish you to stay strong too! xx
Good for you for keeping at what you love! I would struggle with that too, so I give you a lot of credit. I have a feeling it will get easier – it sounds like things are staying civil and that goes a looooong way towards helping you to ignore him. Should he ever act up, just walk away and you’ll be just fine! Thank you for the good wishes and I’m sending lots your way too 🙂 xx
Sandra you’re still FB friends?
Yes, Allison, we are… :-/ Normally, I would have erased him, but I’m not doing it still because of the organization (we also share group mailings and events on FB between all of us), and besides, I don’t want to look like I’m creating further drama, or that I have such a fragile ego. However, I DO ignore him! I swear! Not even a simple “like” on his updates! Although, a friend told me he’s spying on me, and I’m sure he does…On the other hand, I have learned a lot about his psychological profile, things that could be viewed as red flags. Most of the pictures he posts are of himself, and occasionaly of other people (screams “narcissist – me, me, me mode”). He has a number of girls liking and commenting his updates constantly (sometimes obsessively) – not even I used to do it when we started dating. These girls change regularly – like “menù of the day / week / month /season”. Sometimes they disappear and reappear. Message: 1. narcissistic harem. 2. flip-flapping tendencies. 3 weeks ago I was crying my eyes out, but now I’m laughing at him with friends and family! It’s the new comedy show in my household! 😀
Sandra,
It sounds like you’re keeping track of his activity quite closely. Have you thought about hiding him, then you will not be quite so involved?
Hidden already! Today! 😀 After all, it’s all become “predictable like the 25th of December” (as my friend says). He’s always about the same stuff! Round and round in circles! 🙂
Good for you! It will help you move past this fool much faster. 🙂
Alarm!!!! Tonight we have a board reunion at another guy’s house. The board consists of only me, him, and other 2 guys! I feel sick! The avoidance period is ending… 🙁
Sandra, don’t make it any bigger than it needs to be and imagine yourself as cool, calm, collected and in control. If you start imagining heavyweight drama and all sorts of scenarios, you will get there in the wrong mindset.
My thoughts are that this couldn’t come at a better time. Two weeks No Contact and I am catching myself starting to blame myself and starting to dwell on what happened. It’s so easy to do.
I have to catch myself or else I will get into the line of thinking that maybe there is something different I can do to make it work out ‘this time’. Truth is, that is what I have been thinking for two years and it’s never worked out.
Though I do have *some* blame for putting up with the behavior, I can’t blame myself for the behavior itself as it is a reflection of his character, not anything I have done. I wish I could have realized this two years ago but he was always so good at making me feel like it was me.
Truth is, he always blamed everyone else for his problems and I was just in the way at the moment so I got some of the blame.
Amen! I can recall a lot of “truth” being sprinkled into conversations with guys I’ve dealt with but if it didn’t fit the “fairy tale” my fingers go into the ears and “la, la, la”. Or if I wasn’t that into them in the first place, out the door I went before they knew what hit them. Something I wondered whenever I’d hear people talk about how they want honesty is this: Guys (friends, cousins, ex’s) have said “Oh, I can’t be honest that all I want is sex so I have to play like I love them because women can’t handle a sex-and-I’m-out-to-do-my-own-thing situation”. I’ve told them it may take them longer to find someone who’s “down” for that but they’re out there. But of course they really don’t want a mirror image of themselves. I think these type of guys (like I said, some are relatives) just want to treat a woman any type of way and feel like she’s a “good girl” waiting around while they “do them”. They’re not being honest that they don’t want the female out there “doing her own thing” too. Do you think that’s part of why the Future Faking, etc. goes on?
” ‘Hey they did X,Y, Z and I know that’s completely inappropriate and that it reflects their poor character. FLUSH!’ ”
Amen to Nat and that FLUSH handle! I can’t tell you how much I can sometimes go over (and over) what happened in my past relationship. Shady behavior that I just could not let go of. Flush it! Recognize it was BS and down the drain it can go.
I’m going to Home Depot – buying a fancy flush handle in the bathroom hardware dept and having you sign it when you come back into NYC Nat. I’ll look at it when I get a little crazy.
“I’m going to Home Depot – buying a fancy flush handle”
OMG! You just gave me the greatest idea. I am going to buy one for myself and screw it into my wall (probably hidden in the closet so people don’t think I’m nuts) and every time I feel like breaking No Contact or obsess with the recent past, I can literally “flush” it. HaHa! I bet that would be great therapy.
“I’m going to Home Depot – buying a fancy flush handle in the bathroom hardware dept and having you sign it when you come back into NYC Nat. I’ll look at it when I get a little crazy.”
LOL!! What a GREAT idea. I think we should buy them in bulk to give them out to all of our friends as a reminder to FLUSH the clowns out of our lives/minds.
I’m ordering one too – what a great idea!!! 🙂
Ditto…..
It’s the FAB FLUSH FIVE TEAM. Wooo!
Flush it fools – we don’t need it.
I am guilty of a lot of this, too. And it’s true that two people in the same scenario can interpret things totally differently. I recently told a guy I was seeing that I could only sleep with him if neither of us were sleeping with anyone else. I assumed he’d agree to it but was shocked to see that he was shocked by what I said. So I had to let him go. I’m glad I was honest because otherwise I would have been living in a state of not knowing/guessing/hoping, which would have been miserable. Thanks, NML, for the reminder!
Being up front about your expectations and requirements is the best way to go. It keeps you from getting involved with people who are not on the same page as you. I have made the mistake of assuming one to many times that just because i think when dating that I am being exclusive that they are too. Also I have been guilty of denying the reality by not listening to or watching what they do or have done in prior relationships. Thinking that they are going to behave any different with me because I am more “special” than the last woman is my issue, my delusional thinking that i need to be aware of and address, because if I don’t then I don’t do what’s best for me and opt out, I hang in there thinking that I am going to be the exception to their rule. That’s because I have low-self esteem in this area. Looking to a romatic relationship to increase my self-esteem and get valiadated is the wrong place to go to try and acheive this. This must be done before you get involved romatically with someone. That way you will opt out when you need to for yourself and so you won’t continue on a path of destruction which is only going to complicate matters more. Thanks to Natalie and all the women on here that share their thoughts and expierences, it’s been a valuable tool for me and has helped me take a look at my patterns and look within myself for what I need to work on for me so that I will make better choices when it comes to who I get involved with in the first place.
Dawn,
I completely agree with you about being upfront about your needs and expectations. At this point in my life, I reached the conlusion that this is the way things should be done. But when do you think this discussion should be made? I’ve heard men say that if you talk about these things too early, they may feel “under exam” or “under pressure”, therefore this is why I suppose that many of us take things as they come, making up the rules as they go along, or as certain issues arise. What’s your opinion about this?
Well the early dating phase is the perfect time to bring these types of things up – if that makes him feel like he’s being “examined” or “put under pressure” then that suggests that he has other issues that he needs to deal with of his own. I think women often worry that they will “scare” a guy off but my attitude is if he conversations about what his core values are regarding relationships scare him then he’s not available and not someone I want to get to become emotionally involved with. If he’s not really interested in being sexually exclusive and you have that as a core value it’s not a good idea to get further involved.. Even if he tells you that he shares the same values as you in this regard keep on the look for attitudes and behaviors that indicate otherwise. In my opionion it’s not in any woman’s or man’s best interest to not talk about this issue on the second date , that way you can get an answer early, so you can decide from early on if this person shares the same values or not and doesn’t get caught up in falling for or spending too much time with someone who doesn’t share the same core values as you.
I’ve found that when I don’t bring up and deal with talking about these kind of things from the start I set myself up trouble and wanting him to give me something that he’s not able, capable, or interested in giving. And end up thinking that some how I can turn a frog into a prince. Men and women must understand that people are “as is” when you find them-either you share the same values or you don’t, don’t expect or hope for them to change just because you profess your love for them. Don’t make the mistake of thinking you can build him into the person you want him to be-your only setting yourself up for misery and disappointment. I learned that the hard way. So yes, be up front, it’s up to you when to decide to do this but I figure the sooner the better, it’s easier to opt out earlier than later after you become more attatched and emotionally involved. If they say they feel pressured, that’s not your issue nor is it you fault. It’s their issue that they need to deal with, you can talk to him about his thoughts about it to gain an insight into his attitudes…
Dawn – i agree completely. You should be able to be completely honest about who you are and what your boundaries are. You’re just putting the information out there, you’re not even saying, after one or two dates, that this is what you demand from them. It’s up to them to take the information and decide if they want to be with you.
I told my current bloke that i was FWB with someone else when he and i first got together, so he knew from day one what the deal was. I didn’t see the FWB again after i started seeing my bloke and told him so after a month. We then agreed to be exclusive and the relationship has progressed from there. I am a free spirited person, i am not traditional in any sense, so being with someone who accepts that is very important for me. I gave him the facts and he could have opted out and it told me a lot about him when he accepted the situation (which i made clear cut both ways). In the end it turned out that we’re both monogamous types and acted that way even though we both had the option to ‘play away’. That told me a lot about our shared values too.
Sandra,
I think it comes down to HOW you bring things up. I am sure even an available, decent man may be scared off if a woman says in the early stages of dating..”I want this, I want that, I expect this…etc”.
There was an article I read a while back that described how men are sensitive in that they want to please women, but they don’t know how and the right kind of encouragement could yield better results. (It sounded a bit like how you train a dog, LOL, with positive reinforcement). It went on to say how a better way to approach letting a guy know you need something is not to say “I want this or else..” or “You never do this..” – instead you should say “I would really love it if instead of X you could do Y” and when he does it you say “I really loved it when you did X”. Obviously not all men are the same and this certainly probably wouldn’t do any good if he’s an EUM or AC, but I would think if you say to a guy “I would love it if…” and he ignores it (maybe you need to do this at least twice) that’s a red flag, that he isn’t considering your needs/wants. I would be curious to see what Natalie thinks. I think the article was called “Inside the Male Mind” or something like that, you can probably google it.
Exactly, Jo! This is what I was thinking about. I don’t tend to come up with the list of DOs and DON’Ts, but generally at the beginning of the relationship you start to see things you like and things you don’t like (the latter, let’s hope they are not things that bust your boundaries). I was able to praise things I liked, but also to draw his attention to things I didn’t like. Well, in the case of my AC (he DID have some good moments worth praising – like protecting me from a dodgy guy in the club or making sure I didn’t have too much alcohol, because I’m not used to it and I get sick easily), but I’m afraid his ambiguous behaviour is outshining his good deeds… And in the face of being told off, he either blows it our of proportion, twists the discussion in his favour to make you feel mean and unfair (he’s a lawyer, BTW), or becomes passive-aggressive. He can’t handle complaints very well… 🙁
Here is my “criteria:” At the point where it’s “6 months or 26 dates, whichever comes LAST”…… I initiate “THE DISCUSSION.”
Basically, during the 6 month 26 dates, whichever comes last, I don’t call them a “boyfriend.” It’s just a “thing.”
However, that didn’t work on my last A/C (a year ago). We had already “pledged” to be together after two months. I was with him 7 months. But during that time, we didn’t go on 26 dates. We barely went on 3 dates, the rest of the time was either his house or my house, not really on a “date.” So, I refuse to elevate him to “boyfriend” status.
But my “standard” is 6 months, or 26 dates, whichever comes LAST.
JJ2, that’s a good guideline to have. In any case, we need to be aware that the dating process involves ACTUAL dating. My situation was a lot like yours. We mostly hung out at each other’s houses, and hardly ever went out. At the time, I thought, how great it was that we could just be so comfy with each other already. It really was like an instant relationship. And I have to admit, a part of me wanted it that way, to just skip over what I considered to be the awkward dating, getting-to-know-you phase. Looking back, of course, I can see how unwise it was to let the relationship progress the way it did. I shut my eyes to the reality of how incompatible we really were.
Hmmmm…. 6 months or 26 dates… I guess it could be too much. Of course, it also depends on the presence or absence of red flags. I think it depends on how close you get and how soon the other person starts having expectations. One big problem for me would be the fact that I associate sleeping with a guy with a stable relationship. That’s important to me. On the other hand, I don’t think that either him or I would be able to date each other constantly (hopefully) for 6 months without doing anything. So, probably it would be good to initiate the discussion whenever you feel like you’re getting closer, but without making it sound like reading the college regulations! 😉
The “26 dates” is based on a 52 week year. 26 dates is one date a week for 6 months. Usually, you end up going on WAY more than 26 dates within 6 months, that is why I say “whichever comes LAST!” We made the 6 month criteria, we just never went on 26 dates.
Smiles as ever a really good article Natalie. I have only something simple to say…………….be Authentic in everything You do say, feel and act and take TOTAL responsibility for YOURSELF! “The Truth will set You Free, even though it will piss you off first!” Imagine how this world would be if people were to be “REAL” and “Genuine” with each other. Amour. AF
PS…….I don’t possess any beliefs. I prefer the real deal of what is really there, not what is “believed” to be there. 🙂
“take TOTAL responsibility for YOURSELF” – completely agree, and saves a lot of ‘figuring out’ about others that just wastes time and ties me up in knots.
Thanks for this.
In retrospect, I realize that when my ex said to me, “I can’t be who you want me to be,” it was the most honest thing he’d ever said to me.
Its too bad that I didn’t believe him until much later.
Cheers.
Lisa
Ditto – oh wow – ditto
Yes, it’s like you just don’t want to beleive it-it’s just too heartbreakiong and until you accept the truth you’re going to be be miserable in your denial of it. Once you do journey to the point of acceptance of it-a kind of peace and sense of relief settles over you. It’s very freeing. It frees you up to put your energies elsewhere on things that you have more control over of the outcome. You can’t change them and how they think, feel or behave, only thing you can change is yourself. Learn that lesson and apply it continually.
Lisa, I think I remember that one… I believe mine had said about the same time that I was his alpha and omega, etc., only the planets just never seemed to line up for us. (He forgot to include that these particular planets he would have been holding by the puppet strings, which kind of trumped our star-crossed-lovers status…)
These are my favorite kind of half-truths, because they really do entail a sophomorically heroic effort at honesty and introspection. Unfortunately, they also always insist on equally sophomoric poetic or literary basting, and I’m just not enough of a Byronian consumptive maiden to buy into any of it.
But I digress… 😀
Natalie has taught me one thing since I’ve been following her posts. If you take a hard look at all the little lies you’ve told yourself over the years (not to mention the big fat whoppers), you do see the transparency in the things others say to you as well.
“Gee, Big Bad Wolf, why are your thoughts and sentences so convoluted and leave so much to interpretation?”
“Well, my little Red Riding Hood, with no real substance to them, they’re all the better to force you to read into them whatever you want to hear, and if what you read into them isn’t what I was actually saying, then clearly no heartache on your part can be construed as my fault.”
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS POST and for all the comments that followed. I’ve been NC for almost a month now with someone that I’ve been seeing on and off for almost a year. We “broke up” almost three times but he always managed to find his way back in…and I always took him in, thinking I could adjust some of my behavior (I was too jealous, insecure…) to make things work. I was always clear however, that he would also need to meet me half-way and cut back on the flirting with other women. I remember when we first started going out, I told him that if he was just looking for “fun”, to let me know coz I’d like to know what I was getting into. He future faked — I bought in. Then his ex kept creeping back into the picture. He always insisted they were just friends but I didn’t believe him…to the point that I checked his phone a few times (i’m embarrassed that I did that!), confronted him about what I saw (sweet msgs to the ex and a few other girls), and threatened to break up. I always disappeared for a while but was always wooed back. All the while I always told him that if he had a harem, let me know because i didn’t want any part of it. The pathetic thing is, I already knew, but somehow wanted to hear it from him. I realize now, he would never really tell me. So, after spending New Year’s, Valentines and his birthday in tears — i knew he was with some other girl, I decided that was it. I was giving him too much control of my emotions. I was OK before I met him and I know I’ll be OK without him.
Now that I’m almost a month NC (although i did respond to his SMS last week) I’ve been going back and forth again between sticking to my guns and blaming myself for again maybe being too jealous. Some days, I’ll be at peace with the fact that he and I just want/expect different things, other days, I want to just scream at him for hurting me, and then there are days too when I just curly up and cry, thinking he’s with some other girl. And what if I just had been a little more patient, maybe I wouldn’t have pushed him away. He always said he liked me the most… yikes, i was willing to settle for that, but even that he couldn’t give (he didn’t spend important days with me).
I’m taking it one…
“All the while I always told him that if he had a harem, let me know because i didn’t want any part of it. The pathetic thing is, I already knew, but somehow wanted to hear it from him.” So, you were expecting/hoping that a guy who was being dishonest with you would be honest because…? Since he was stringing you along, and even though you were checking his phone and such and really KNEW, you were still willing to accept his excuses and absences, what was his incentive to become honest with you?
Besides, as you say, you were giving HIM all the power. Your decision to stay in the relationship was based on something he said – or didn’t say.
“what if I just had been a little more patient, maybe I wouldn’t have pushed him away.” I don’t get where you were going with this – if you’d been willing to continue to turn a blind eye to the way he disrespected you and your feelings, and did a better job of pretending you dind’t know he was running around on you, surely he would have come to respect you in the end…?
“He always said he liked me the most… yikes, i was willing to settle for that, but even that he couldn’t give (he didn’t spend important days with me).” There’s a game show called minute to win it, and apparently one of the stunts is to keep three marbles from rolling off an inclined table. Whichever of them is closest to the edge is therefore the most important one at that moment – which sounds like how your ex was operating.
getting by, you DESERVE to be with a guy who is not juggling 3 (or more) marbles at a time. Who shows respect and consideration even if you don’t BEG him to.
Keep battling back, and good luck!
Have we been seeing the same guy? – sounds like my ex and me – thanks gawd I flushed him out after two years and have finally got my self-esteem back.
What feels great now is trusting ME and my Red Flag Early Warning System. It’s so much easier than arguing with myself. It feels simple, down to earth and honest.
You’re so right, Perfectly Awful. Even as I was typing my initial comment, a part of my was going: “Ah, woman, how could you be doing one thing and wanting/saying another! Some BOUNDARIES and self-respect, please…”
If a friend had come to me and told me exactly my story, I know I’d tell her exactly what you just told me. I can’t exactly blame the man for acting like he did…that’s how he is. BUT I can take responsibility for putting myself in a situation that I know deep down is destructive and definitely not what I want.
Thank you! And yes, I will keep battling back.
Gettingby and Sofiexx my ex had a harem of friends (and one ‘best friend’). He wasn’t seeing them romantically while seeing me (some of them were even married), but nonetheless he was ‘friendly’ in a way that made me uncomfortable.
Anyway I think guys like him are little boys who want to keep these child-like relations with women friends (his harem) because in order to have one female that he’s actually romantically devoted to, well above all others, that would mean he’d actually have to grow up.
If they get rid of the harem they get rid of the buffer between him and the big bad adult world of one-on-one relationships between one man and one woman.
Another thought provoking post. Honesty has been the hardest thing for me to deal with in all this. My own, specifically. I had always thought myself an honest person, sometimes “brutally” so. That just meant I gave myself license to hurt others by saying whatever I wanted, under the guise of honesty. As I continue to strip away the layers of denial I have wrapped myself in over the past years, I now see what real honesty is. I loved what you said about honesty being able to say uncomfortable things with respect. I didn’t do that. Whatever his faults, when the break up with the AC came, I felt I had the “right” to tell him what I honestly felt about him and his behavior and it certainly wasn’t done with respect. I regret that now, if only because it served no purpose and it diminished me as a person.
Most of all, I just wasn’t being honest with myself, about much of anything. I am trying now. I am also trying not to use my realizations as reasons to beat up on myself or hate myself again. Now that I know better, I am trying to do better. That is all I can do. I really am trying. Looking back, I was trying so hard to get my needs met, when I wasn’t even being honest about what my needs were. That’s all me – that’s got nothing to do with him. Neither of us were being remotely honest in the relationship and the damage and fall out continues to this day. Now, I am making sure my words and actions match.
Debra,
Similar to you the last throwes of my last relationship brek-up saw an episode of revenge flavoured behaviour from me , which I would never do again. However behaving in a way we’d rather we hadnt is a big indictor that the guys behaviour combined with our denial/or not facing the truth at the time -has led to a long overdue feeling explosion! Don’t be so hard on yourself, we’re all still learning till our last breath (well I’m not sure how much learning the A/Cs are doing).
Another reason for being more truthful with ourselves as regulrly as possible and not letting things slip into denial. The more we lie to ourselves the tougher we make it for ourselves ultimately I guess. But BR is the fastest way back to the truth I’ve ever found! 🙂
Debra, very inspiring and clear-headed. Thanks.
A big lesson I have learned from Baggage Reclaim is to watch out for their actions, in order to get an honest read on the them or the relationship. Too many times, I have confronted about code amber and even code red behavior, only to be told something entirely different. I took them at their word, rather than their actions. I assumed they would not lie to me, for the simple fact that I would lie to them. How naive was that?
I have been married twice, the first time I was VERY young. And quite naive, gullible, and codependent. Here is an example. My young husband was my age, and still very much a boy. He would go to work (or not some days), and then go out and play with his buddies. I would call around to try and find him to see when he would be home. He would say he was on his way, but it would be HOURS later when he got there. I would get upset, and he would turn the situation around and say, “See this is why I don’t come home!” What a mind-f***! Of course, I could see the irrationality behind his statements, and would argue with him, but he would use the entire fight to defend his position of being the poor hen-pecked husband.
The recent ex-AC pulled some of the same stuff, when I would confront him on his bad behavior. I’m thankful now we didn’t last that long.
I have always been the kind of person that thought everything needed to be discussed or talked out, in order to work things out. Maybe that is true to some extent, but when the evidence of their actions is so glaringly obvious, I think talk was nothing more than my way of denying the reality of the situation. You see, when I would confront them, they would deny or tell me things would change (for the umpteenth time), and I would gladly buy it. I believe now that, on some unconscious level, I was asking them to paint me a fairy tale, and they gladly did.
Wow I can relate to so much of what the ladies here are saying. Debra this part “but he would use the entire fight to defend his position of being the poor hen-pecked husband.”
Some men sure do seem to enjoy playing that victim role don’t they? It’s to the point I’ve learned to look for that as a red flag. If he tells me how his ex or his ‘female friend’ or whomever victimized him by taking up too much of his time, using him for money, whatever it is. I look at that as a possible flag because next he’ll be telling people how you’re victimizing him. It doesn’t seem like a real man would relish playing the role of being victimized by his woman.
I’ve also heard men complain about their wives or girlfriends in much the same way your ex husband used to go out and complain about you (and some of my exes did the same to me). I’m amazed how many people buy into the man’s side of the story, including women, they coo and soothe him and tell him she’s too demanding, he deserves better, etc… when they don’t know her side of the story. I don’t buy into it, and if anything I might ask him if he’s doing anything to contribute to the problem.
“Honesty involves being prepared to hear and say things that make you uncomfortable with respect.”
This is so true, and obviously why a lot of people avoid honesty, either within themselves or hearing it from others. It’s not comfortable. It doesn’t FEEL good. But…the alternative is lying to yourself or choosing not to listen to someone who may be giving you an honest assessment of you because it FEELS bad or hurts. Sometimes if we could just pull ourselves out of our emotions, it might save us a lot of pain and heartache later, which is worse? A little discomfort now or much more later?
It isn’t easy. That’s why it’s ‘uncomfortable’.
I am 2+ weeks NC with my ex AC, and I the fog of self deceit I was under is slowly clearing. He lives far away – I hardly saw him, called when HE wanted – or texted rather – never did hear his voice much, and of course did not offer me much of anything except empty promises. So one night I was laying in bed and this question popped into my head after I decided to go NC with this guy, “Is your life really going to be that different day to day really?” And the answer was NO. I hardly see him anyway, he feels like a figment of my imagination most of the time. And I came to the conclusion that I was missing the ‘idea’ of him, the fantasy I built. That was a tough realization, but it was the first time I admitted such a thing to myself. Deep down I may have known it. It was strangely liberating. Though a few months ago, if a friend had asked the question I probably would have bristled.
Great post. As of recently, I have decided to acknowledge that I am a Fallback girl, and although honesty takes more patience and has less immediate gratification, my self esteem has improved dramatically. The duality of being honest with yourself is fascinating. On one hand, I may not like all of the patterns or mistakes that I have made in my relationships, but on the other hand, the ability to acknowledge them and make a decision to do something about it has made me feel proud, hopeful, and worthy of those changes. This site has changed my life. Thanks for helping me be honest with myself.
Yay Amanda!! Me too.
Hey Everyone. I first most want to say that these post have been helping me so so so much. I am in the process of finally being honest with myself and realizing that I have been in a pseudo-relationship with an AC / EUM. I realized that I have no boundaries and because of that have constantly been treated with no respect, consideration, or just plain old kindness. Our relationship is long distance so it consisted mainly of text and online messaging. We would meet up once a month or so, where we would sleep together. In the beginning he would meet me half way ( we live 4hrs of drive apart) , but after 3 or 4 times of meeting up, he’d say he was not coming down and if I wanted to see him, I’d have to come up…which I did. On his birthday, I flew him out and celebrated it by taking him out and buying him stuff. When my bday came – all I got was a text saying HappyBday. When I graduated from professional school he did not even text to say ‘congrats’. I don’t care about gifts but the fact of he didn’t even acknowledge it hurt. Even when I went up to meet him, in the month of my bday, he did not pay for my dinner.. now that I think about it, in the year and 3 months we’ve been ‘talking’ i think he paid only 2 times for my meal. There was one time that when we met up, he was already checked in the hotel and said he had gotten the room earlier to put his stuff there ( or some excuse).. I did not question it.. but later on, after taking a shower, on the mirror it was written ‘ I Love You’ .. and when i asked who wrote that he said it must of been there from before…then in the morning, I got up first and saw the receipt ( that they put underneath the door) which said he had the room from Friday night.. I got there on Sunday night..which meant he had another girl there before me – in the freakin’ same bed!! When I questioned him about it, he lied and said some excuse that he had gotten the room for some people who had come into town ( for work).. of course I sat there and took his lies. I constantly lied to myself and was in denial. Fastforward to now, today is my first day of no contact. Finding this site was a sign from god… to wake up and smell all the BS i have been eating up quietly. I…
Ariel, it might be tough but it sounds like NC will be one of the best decisions you’ve ever made. That guy sounds like a total loser and you have to know, based on your description of his shady deeds, that he isn’t someone worth keeping around at all. Yikes – so glad you got rid of him.
Ariel – good for you for going no contact!! This guy sounds like a selfish egomaniac. From much experience I can tell you that you can’t win with a guy like this and no contact is the only answer. He will probably try and suck you back in at some point and you will find a lot of strength in ignoring him! Keep up the good work 🙂
Thanks Natasha and Sam.. Its really hard.. im not gonna Lie! I keep my phone with me, constantly looking at it to see if the white light is blinking, indicating if I got a message, wondering if its him. Everytime I feel weak, I come to this site and read post, which HELP soooo much!
Ariel,
I’m new to the site too and it has been a HUGE help to me in maintaing NC… I look at it as my AC AA meeting! Whenever I feel the urge to call or text him, I log on for a refresher of Nat’s wisdom and added support from the wonderful ladies of BR. Thank you all so much! You have no idea how much you’ve done for me!
Ariel – I just want to say – I broke NC many times thinking that this or that situation I found myself in with him was different. I regret it all. Breaking NC was never a good idea and just made the healing time longer! Just be strong and realize that with the facts gained on this guy – you will NOT regret NC. You have everything to gain from it. Just trust in it and stay strong – it is not worth it.
Ariel – I have been there! The first time I went no contact with my ex AC and he came chasing after me, I thought, “Aha! I won at last.” Not. so. much. Everytime you check for a message, think of it this way, “He’s getting in touch because he’s looking for sex, an ego boost, etc. He is therefor an assclown and I have no desire to hear from him and I don’t need him to come running after me to feel good.” Natalie has some awesome posts on what the act of them getting in touch actually means vs. the validation that we’re looking for from it. Reading those made a HUGE difference for me. On the last go-around, when I went no contact for good, he did try and get in touch with me once and I ignored it (for the first time ever) and that was that. I took it as a compliment, because I thought, “Hmmm, I’m not as easy pickings as you thought, am I?” When we take some time to be honest with ourselves and dig deep about why we’re feeilng what we’re feeling, it can take a situation chock full o’ negatives and turn it into an empowering one 🙂 Trust me, it gets better!!
Sam and Natasha – He texted me today and I came right to this site and saw the reinforcement comments from you guys and it helped!! Thanks so much!!!
Megan – I TOTALLY agree that this is like a AC-AA meeting/site to help us!!! I am always checking this sight so if you ever just need to vent, Im listening/reading! I feel I cant go to my friends anymore b/c they all have been telling me from day one that he was no good and also b/c I think I’ve complained about all the BS to them so much, its just annoying now!
Natasha
exactly that. When our self esteem is in good shape NC no longer feels like we’ve lost, it feels like we’ve gained. We don’t care what they think, and should our thoughts wander in that direction (we’re only human) we’re PLEASED that they don’t contact us and they don’t see us a target anymore. It’s a huge step forward from the old days when we WANTED to be their target/victim. Oh happy days, that’s over!
Some people say they believe in being ‘honest’ but when they experience honesty that doesn’t fit around what they want to hear or see, they deny it or get angry with the other party.
This is me, I say I want honesty but when and I get it and it doesn’t suit me I deny it and continue on as though it is not an issue.
For example the last EUM I dated said in the ‘breakup’ conversation we would be friends after a period of time has passed by and he set a time he would be back in touch. That time passed and I didn’t hear from him now instead of going on with my life and accepting the truth of his ACTIONS I denied the truth contacted him and again he told me he would be in touch again his actions said otherwise again I denied the truth and contacted him and this situation would still be going on if NML had not knocked off those rose coloured glasses that were glued to my face.
So there’s me saying I want honesty but only in a way I can handle it and that suits me, in fact this went on from the beginning (4 yrs) I denied myself the truth, denied everything, my true feelings about how different situations made me feel, it comes back to both of us been dishonest with each other and ourselves in order to have what we wanted from each other.
I have done a huge amount of denial and truth avoiding with my ex. Pains me to say it. Although when someone has seriously future faked with you, and you’ve invested alot of time and changed your life -its even more of a challenge to get back to the truth. I moved my job and home, literally moved my life to live *near* him! Not even living in with him, as was of course originally planned. Several excuses later i found my own place instead of moving into the house we chose and signed into together. If I listed all the areas of denial or areas of avoidance/ things I *forgot*! it would be a long list. Pretty much a lot of amber and red lights flashing.
I rarely felt listened to about my day, needs, preferences, opinion, ideas, comments on the relationship. I felt as though he wanted a Nanny, Chauffer with transport & petrol Cook, Lady of the Night -all preferably without too much to say, but then that would all mean he wouldnt respect me anyway…
Some of his true comments were: ‘I dont need anyone’ – at this stage he’d got the house through my good credit, got his own car & bsically improved his life, whilst I was morphing my life to his and getting disorientaed (during fast forwarding he said he needed me more than once), ‘It’ll take you long time to get over this’, ‘I need mental support’ (!) and the clanger “What can you offer me?” Think I’ve mentioned before, this comment still sticks… and I’d really appreciate a bit of feedback here, as I did alot for him, although I can always think of other things I could have done… I should have asked him the same I know… but any comments to help me shed this would help please …
It sounds like your guy didn’t appreciate you and just felt everything should be handed to him on a platter as a matter of entitlement. As a result you felt unappreciated. I don’t know the details but it generally sounds like he’s not too much fun to live with or be in a relationship with. Are you still in his city or did you move back to yours? Hope things work out for you.
Melanie
Thank you so much for your reply. Yes think he knew he was very handsome/good looking too. He did do alot for me, paid for things but, I wonder if I felt or was made to feel like I should make it up in other ways -rahter than just accepting it. I paid for plenty too though. I wouldnt say I got much emotional support, wheras I tried to give a load to him, couldnt really trust him as he’d often not call back in the last months. 1 rule for him another for me…
Anyhow your dead right i felt underappreciated. Truth is saying thank you wasnt his forte. He wasnt much of a smiler… so yeah not always much fun. So not sure why i cant shake missing him at times:/ Perhaps its me blaming myself for not introducing more fun, or being better as a girlfriend! as though everything had to be my responsibility!!
I’ve moved back, couldnt stay in area as it was even harder to move on, the distance is hleping me heal 🙂 & getting fab support & insight from BR 🙂
I think I’ m the problem. None of my relationships are like this. I rarely tell people how I really feel. If I’m feeling intense about something like if I’m angry, I’m usually met with “you need to calm down” or some version of that. THAT pisses me off even more and I just shut down altogether. This is not healthy but I’m so tired of people telling me to calm down.
I actually have a friend that I am going to ask (I know she will be honest) how I come off. I want a better understanding of how I am with people…….even if it hurts like a B to hear it.
I will say I “felt” a boundary when a relative asked me to babysit her children at a hotel in another city while she went out partying with her husband and friends. Immediately I did not want to do it though she was paying me. I eventually did decline albeit via text (lazy right…avoiding the awkwardness of telling her over the phone…which she asked me over text anyway). Later I found out what a chaotic night that was and drama filled. I was SO glad I listened to myself!! I would not have wanted to be there for that crap. Score for me in boundary-land.
One thing, and I find this a lot with people especially those I like, is that they say they’ll do this or wouldn’t it be nice to do that……..and it never happens. I have grown to not trust that people will do what they say they will do. So either I have a gift of attracting noncommittal people or EVERYONE is like this. Not to mention having issues trusting people like coworkers. My brain does not comprehend the gossip, the saying something $hitty about someone then a minute later be totally nice to their face. What is that???? Sooooo many people do this and I just would rather stay to myself though it is lonely. It is annoying not knowing the bull people are saying/spreading about you. Yeah yeah it’s none of my business, but it hurts. It feels like a total contradiction and really does not feel good to witness this and then play nice to the people doing it. A part of me wants to call them on it…..but if I do that who knows what “truth” they’ll want to tell me about me.
I love your straightforward post, especially the part about the gossipers who are nice to someone’s face they just gossiped about. It’s not hard to guess if I’m mad at, or don’t like someone. And I don’t act nice to people then talk about them behind their back, so yes it’s hard to relate to those who do.
And unlike some of my exes, if an ex treats me in a way that indicates he doesn’t respect me and doesn’t value me, then no, he’s not going to remain my ‘friend’. Why would I allow someone who’s shown me outright that he doesn’t respect me or value me, believe that’s good enough for me to consider a friend.
Colororange: I have learned a lot lately about people who’s actions don’t follow their words. All I know is that I don’t want to be like that. I think life sometimes shows you things in other people so that you can know what you DON’T want to be. Don’t give up hope – not everyone out there is like that.
I have a few people (not all BFFs) that are good people that I know and email and keep in touch with. I keep a list of their names by my desk to remind me that there are good people that I have crossed paths with and I have a better appreciation for those people when I do meet someone new.
BTW co-workers are like family. You don’t get to pick them but you have to be around them all the time. It sucks, but just remember who you are in the midst of all that crap.
Wow I’m seeing so much of myself & the EUM’s in all these different comments. It feels good not to be ALONE in all this. I realize my words & actions with the EUM/AC weren’t truthful. I would go on & on about not being put in “the other woman” position & he would say “you’re not that, I don’t see you as that, it complicated” and I would mull that over for awhile buying him more time with me. Hmph! What nonsense. I kept saying I should have told him NO from the begining like I had said to others – he wasn’t the first guy with a gf/babies mama that ever approached me. But we had history & he was a long time family friend so I excused a lot of things. Live & learn. I’ll stick to my truth from now on.
It can take time to come to “believe” yourself. I have to practice: how do I really feel? If I’m really honest, what do I really think of this person’s behaviour?
I have thought it a matter of honor to default to falling on my sword: ie. if someone thinks they’re right, and I think I’m right, if they get upset enough, I start to wonder if I just have been insensitive or something. Then I’ll apologize.
It takes GUTS to believe in yourself, when other people will gladly tell you that you’re not doing things the ‘right’ way.
Some of you may remember the couple I posted about recently, who, as my hosts, showed little sensitivity to my not wanting to hang out with a famous guy that I already knew to be a jerk? So that was a yellow flag, and a couple other things the woman of the couple said to me were pretty yellow, almost orangy-red, flags. I said something to her about my own doubts about my career and she took it as a huge insult. I was shocked but apologized immediately, being all like, I had no intention of insulting you, I’m so sorry, etc. But I had a *little* tinge of … is she trying to let me know she will tolerate no differing opinions to hers?
Yesterday I got the final ‘light’: I stated a personal opinion about being uncomfortable having to dedicate a lot of time reading a writer who is a known racist and has Nazi and KKK associations. For some reason she launched into a long, empassioned lecture about why ‘we’ have to appreciate this writer’s merits. For five straight minutes. I felt browbeaten, challenged, and a little weirded out that she was defending him so fiercely.
The old me: “But I just think that think that you can’t say x because …” Getting further into the conflict.
The new me: (There’s more to this under the surface. I feel it. I have to act on THAT. So let’s ask:) “Are you trying to have me feel differently about reading this writer?”
That blew sh*t up.
She got so angry, declared she wasn’t trying to make me FEEL anything, had to leave the table, refused to take me home in her car, refused to speak to me until much later when she came to tell me I had made her very angry, expecting an apology. When I said I realized she was angry, but…
When I said I realized she was angry, but didn’t apologize for asking the question, she glared at me.
It was very interesting to FEEL, in every fibre of my body, that she did not believe I had any right to say what I had, that I had been ‘wrong’ and that I deserved the silent treatment and then a scolding. It took so much concentration not to say something to capitulate, knowing I was her guest.
The next day and today I felt sad that we don’t have and can’t have the trusting relationship I hoped we might, and resigned to the likelihood that she will badmouth me to all the new people I’ve met. I can’t control that. I also felt like a ‘bad girl’ for not saying sorry; but I worked through that.
All this to say that if I was still unconsciously reacting to others’ displeasure as if everything they say about an interaction is the truth and my version isn’t true … well, I would have made a new ‘friend’ who would introduce me around but only ever wanted me to blow sunshine up her bum.
Emotional honesty (is there any other kind?) … at least for me … takes practice, and nerve, and a sense of faith in myself. I’m growing that faith.
Coda:: Bizarrely (but after so many months on BR, I guess I might have predicted this) this woman emailed me today as if nothing happened and is all chummy again. Press the reset button much?
Magnolia: What a frustrating story! Seems as if your instinct about this person was right all along. She probably wanted you only as an ego-booster and got angry as soon as you got wiser and refused to play this role. At the moment, this experience is probably very hurtful for you, but glad you finally grew strong and made her show her true face!
I had a very similar experience with my “best friend” of 8 years with whom I recently had a terrible break-up. Not sure whether you noticed my follow-up. If you’re interested, it’s here: https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/understanding-code-red-and-code-amber-behaviour-in-dating-and-relationships/#comment-297163
Basically, I e-mailed her that I wanted to end our friendship, because I believed we didn’t have much in common anymore (it was a brief e-mail with no details, stating that we both should go our own separate ways, and wishing her all the best) and got a very, very nasty response. I was devastated, but for some reasons, not very surprised (deep inside, I knew she was capable of this).
Regarding this woman, you should probably decide whether she is of any further help for you regarding your career. If this is the case, maybe you can find a way to “handle” her without getting hurt emotionally. If not, don’t feel bad about avoiding her! I’m sure there are people who value you for whom you are and might give you the same (or even more) support than she would be capable of. Due to your somewhat unhealthy pattern of relationships (I have similar problems), maybe you simply didn’t notice them.
When it comes to dealing with toxic people you can’t avoid, I found the following book helpful and comforting (currently reading it, not yet finished): “Emotional Vampires” by Albert Bernstein, . It explains about how such people “tick” and how to avoid getting drained dry by them.
I’m now convinced that a lot of my poor choices regarding friends and acquaintances trace back to my childhood. My mother “trained” me to cater to those patterns for more than 20 years. Of course it’s difficult to change those unhealthy habits, but I believe there is hope!
Magnolia & Elly,
Magnolia, sounds like you may be dealing with academics and if so then I’m sure you know the dynamics there can be their own little festerpot of fun. She’s probably in a similar field as you and probably feels threatened by you. Yes it sounds like she is trying to press the reset button. Elly gave some great advice there. I almost feel like you could’ve replied to her request for an apology with telling her on the contrary she owed you one. But then your approach was actually best because otherwise you’re playing right into her game. I think you handled it very well. Work dynamics can be tough and I empathize with your issues with the mutual friends too. Elly, your ex friend sounds like she just confirmed for you why you wanted to end the friendship. I am going to look into that book, Emotional Vampires.
I recently had a rude wake up call about a friend (or so I thought) at least with a friendship abruptly ending, and I feel both blindsided but also like, how could I have not known all these years what she was.
I dated a guy who I’d met through her, a long-term friend of mine. He is a relative of hers, not her immediate family. I actually met her years ago through her dating my immediate family member so she wouldn’t have any grounds to be on a high horse about that. After he treated me badly and disrespectfully and I dumped him (also there’s reason to believe she knows he’s done this to other women in the past), she texted me indicating that she knew we’d broke up. I told her what he did to me and that I was disappointed by it, and she never did write back. That was out of character as we are not strangers she and I have been friends for over 20 years. So why not reply to my message with a simple “Sorry that happened, I wouldn’t like that behavior either” or something to that effect …? Afterall I had done exactly as much and more when things didn’t work out between her and my relative, and as a result of my basic social skills, we were all able to remain friends. If I reacted like she did we’d have gone to our separate camps as she would’ve felt like an unvalued outsider.
5 months go by and she’s constantly posting up on facebook about all the good times and fun…
5 months go by and she’s constantly posting up on facebook about all the good times and fun events she’s going to with her family. So then after those 5 months she texts me like nothing happened with “Just saying hi”… I was thinking, What? Just saying hi? How about why didn’t you respond to my text 5 months ago? It was kind of an important text… Mind that our friendship is mainly her issues and my fun loving and free spirit. So it’s not that she is constantly being taxed with having to deal with needs for emotional reassurance from me. So I text her back saying, “strange that you text me now, I was surprised that you never responded to my text 5 months ago. A simple ‘I wouldn’t like that either’ or ‘You deserve to be treated better than that’ would’ve worked”
So what did she do? FINALLY acknowledge what I said? NO! She wrote me back with this long whiny diatribe about all these issues that she’s dealing with, (issues that just came up and don’t explain why she hasn’t been able to find 30 seconds in the last 5 months to finally write me back). And even asked me why I haven’t checked up on her lately. (But why would I check up on her when she can’t even be bothered to spend 30 seconds responding to a text where I told her things weren’t going well with me.) She never did even when prompted, acknowledge my experience or my feelings. Not much of a friend. Her response in essence said (though she didn’t come out and say it) that she believes her problems are important and she can’t be expected to find the time to deal with my petty issues…
So once I received that text I removed her and the rest of her clan from my facebook that day (the ex had already been removed after he was dumped) as she showed herself that day to be all about herself and no one else. It was actually quite shocking, the selfishness, from someone who I’d always assumed was such a nice person. I guess she is nice, as long as it doesn’t involve her lifting a finger to go out of her way for anyone but herself or her family. Still reeling a bit, it’s like being in the twilight zone, right is wrong, I guess.
EllyB and Melanie,
Thanks for these thoughtful responses! Isn’t it amazing how work on ourselves illuminates our relationship dynamics across the board?
Mag
I too think I might have finally ‘graduated’ from being a Fallback Girl. Having been hotly pursued by a ‘wonderful’ man who seemed to accept that I wasn’t going to rush into a relationship and wanted time to get to know him, he seems now to have cooled and hasn’t contacted me since getting back from his holiday. It’s only been 24 hours though so I’m aware I may be being hypervigilant but my gut feeling is that he’s moved on in his feelings. He *is* a busy person but that didn’t stop him being in contact before. I noticed the rise of ‘what did I do wrong’ thoughts, but they are quickly replaced by ‘actions speak louder than words – wait and see what he does’. I am giving it another 2 days and if he doesn’t contact me with a satisfactory level of interest I am simply going to move on. I’ve been also seeing another guy (circular dating Rori Raye style) who has been treating me with total respect, kindness and consistently showing his interest in me and although I don’t find him nearly as attractive (can’t imagine why – duh!) for once I am going to give the nice guy a chance and see what happens. It’s very nice to go out with someone who isn’t pushing for sex but is clearly very attracted to me. I actually feel like he’s interested in ME. The other guy also seemed to be interested in ME but there were a couple of amber flags (eager to get physical and I found myself discussing ‘what his behaviour could mean’ with my girlfriend) so although on paper he’s much more ‘ideal’, he’s possibly EUM for some reason even though he is a decent person.
Until they actually ask you to be their girlfriend or equivalent expression of interest rather than assuming a pattern, then as far as I’m concerned I’m still single and available. One thing I learned from Evan Marc Katz is that men do what they want and there’s no point getting upset about it and taking the blame. Just FLUSH and move on!
I’ve reread this post and the importance of feedback is key. That’s an idea I hadn’t really thought of before. I had a map in my head of what I thought the relationship should be and was hip-deep in denial, doing everything I could to make the relationship be what I wanted it to be -lying to myself and him, ignoring warning signs, reading meaning into things. Feedback is a powerful way of making sure I don’t fall back into that trap. If I am staying in real time, processing things in an honest way, then feedback demands that I constantly reevaluate the situation. I was so trapped in the golden beginning that, when confronted with evidence that things had changed, I literally refused to believe it. Rather than accepting the feedback and re-thinking the situation, I just tried harder to make it be what I wanted. I was so dishonest with myself – about what was actually happening, what I was feeling and what I wanted – that when it all fell apart, I couldn’t accept it with the grace and maturity I would have liked. He may have ended the personal relationship but I was the one who set fire to the professional one. I went scorched earth when I am not sure it was entirely necessary. He was abusive and disrespectful but I quickly sank to his level and felt justified doing it. I didn’t get the relationship I wanted and felt cheated, instead of just feeling relieved that I had escaped a bad situation.
Honesty is tough, if for no other reason than it changes, depending on new information, new feelings and new ways of being. Every time I think I have finally come to the “truth” of what happened in that last disasterous relationship, I find it changes as I learn to see things differently, most importantly my role and my accountability in it. I finally went full NC with the AC and quit when he tried to deny me my reality and “truth”. It is interesting to see that what I thought was true at that moment is not what I think is true now, 4 months later.
Wow, you are talking about my MOM! Honesty is not important in my family. I always have to “couch” things. Rephrase. Backtrack.
Message? “You aren’t loved unless you act a certain way.” And boy did this set me up for all my relationships! If I “heard” any “tone” of disappointment from any boyfriend, I would assume the “World had come to an end” and would go into “faking it” mode.
“You wouldn’t be saying ‘OMG! They did X,Y,Z! Why did they do that? What is it about me? What could I have done differently?’ ”
I wish I had read this ohhhh…4 or 5 months ago. I just got out of a relationship with a Mr.Unavailable. He had actually gone so far as to start referring to me as his girlfriend, but then simply disappeared one day. For three weeks I was miserable and wondering what I had done wrong (and feeding my misery by emailing him every few days trying to “fix” whatever mistake was the flavour of the day). One day he finally emailed back with some BS excuse for why he had to end our relationship. I spent another 4 or 5 days blaming myself for everything until one day the light went on (helped along by this site and a handful of others). Now I feel fantastic…my ego is a little bruised, but otherwise, fantastic.
This may well have been my epiphany relationship…though I have some work to do to make sure I don’t fall back into my old habits.
Ha! Of course the truth hurts, I’d rather have it this way than to lie to myself, I used to not only be in denial, but I couldn’t see the tree for the woods.
I’m working on myself, accepting myself and improving. It’s been about 7 months NC, and I’m not really counting anymore. It’s about ME not him the EUM. Im learning I have issues I never dealt with and the EU r/s was just the boiling point. I haven’t felt comfortable dating but feel I’m almost there, this time I’ll be bullet proof, I have been putting myself out there gradually and am starting to appreciate the good guys more and more!
I’ll never lie to myself anymore, it hurts in the end.
Hi Natalie, very on-target post as usual. I’m interested in hearing from you and others about a closure letter. My now ex-husband told me a pack of lies, which at the time I believed, until what I saw and heard dissolved his lies one at a time. Now that we’re divorced I need some closure, and I don’t want to speak with him. I wrote him a letter and told him why I left (I didn’t tell him back when I actually did leave) and asked some questions I’d not asked earlier – that was my fault for loving blindly. So now I’m aware and perceptive and won’t fall for blue eyes or a sexy voice any more – what I saw and heard wasn’t what I got at all!
This site has been so helpful to me this past year. My AC ended our relationship on his terms in early summer then re appeared to wipe himself on me when it worked best for him. I sought outside help as in therapy, in getting over him because for whatever reason I could not let go. My therapist really helped me look inside myself and take responsibility for allowing this person to treat me with such dis- respect which lead me to re evaluate my self esteem issues. After seeking help, many many self help books and a much need retreat… I feel like a new me…. I am not running at full capacity yet but I know I am strong enough to stay away from him.
I went on my first date this last weekend. With my new skills, self esteem and boundaries. Unfortunately, I agreed to go out with another EUM, but I am proud to say I saw the red flags as they flung up and walked away feeling pretty proud of myself even though I will admit the crazy me had plenty of fun second guessing and dissecting my night . Now I just need to figure out how I missed the flags that would have indicated he was a jerk before I went out with him.
Back to the drawing board:)
Good job recognizing EUM and letting go. I find as time goes on I tolerate less and it takes fewer and smaller flags for me to know what I’m dealing with. Each time you learn something about what you will and won’t tolerate. For instance, in the past I got involved with an alcoholic. Before him I didn’t know enough to even know what that looked like. I know what it looks like now!
When you figure it out, if you’d like to share what the flags were that you saw before and after the date, I find it very helpful to learn from other people’s experiences too.
EUM & Passive Agressive men, lie and do what they do, because it works for them..and incredibly!!!!!end up, rewarded for their heartless ,disgusting and shallow behaviour …now that we know better through learning ladies…can I suggest , that we do the situation in reverse …lets stick together , support each other collectively .. foster and maintain what hopefully will work ..for all of us as decent ,sane women..HONESTY , and genuine no BS ….behaviour ..our reward will be a relationship with a caring , genuine , loving partner.
Wonderful words, Pam! I’m with you 100%! 😉
Natalie, I trust myself as far as “keeping it professional” is concerned. I know I have no intention to bring our argument back into discussion. What worries me, though, is that part of the story that doesn’t depend on me: his attitude. If he says something, trying to play the victim, I’d say something like: “I wanted to talk to you in private to set things straight, but given the fact that you avoided it, I would consider this case closed.”
Ok, I just returned home. 🙂 It went well, we kept it simple and friendly and no heavy talk involved. Actually, it was even fun! But the thing is the others keep hinting that him and I should get back together. Sometimes, I had to “change the argument” when they brought up the topic. Oh, yeah, at some point I found his foot over mine under the table! Fool! 🙂 I intend to continue the no-contact period (apart from orgnaization-related stuff), but the thing is he also asked for some professional advice from my mother (they are both lawyers – 😀 ) and I have to ask her and let him know. Ooops, he’s messing with my no-contact policy! :-O Anyway, I will NOT take him back until he grows the balls to address past issues that led to breaking-up. I need open, HONEST communication, and the right actions to back up the words! Amen! 😉
Sandra,
Why do you have to do anything for him (legal advice)? Isn’t it time to move on from this man completely????
Well, it’s basically my mum’s area of expertise, to call that way. But, even if I give him an answer, I’m keeping it just about that: writing an e-mail that refers strictly to that and nothing else. Not even asking how he’s doing, or other “socializing chat”. But you know, I have a funny feeling lately, I don’t know if you ever had it: now I became a detached observer of his actions. I’m amusedly watching to what extent he’s trying to go. Like watching a cheesy soap-opera, just to see what silly stuff the screenwriters come up with next! 🙂 Anyway, moving on completely is next to impossible, due to the reasons mentioned above. Plus, apart from organization work (and board membership), we are all very good friends, and we spend a lot of time together: we are all young, we have pretty much the same interests, etc. On the other hand, moving on from the romantic point of view IS possible! Simply by not taking him back when he starts flirting again. Or, except for the probability case mentioned above – which I really have my doubts about! 😉 You just wouldn’t believe how much I screamed “OMG!! It’s HIM!!”, when reading Natalie’s articles about EUMs, the reset button, committment-phobia and ther stuff! 🙂
Girl,
“I’m amusedly watching to what extent he’s trying to go. Like watching a cheesy soap-opera, just to see what silly stuff the screenwriters come up with next”
This is not a good sign. Honestly, it would be annoying for me if this were going on. I would not be amused. Sorry to say it, but it sounds like you like the attention and the validation you are receiving from this guy.
If some guy had disrespected me in a relationship I wouldn’t do anything for him. You’re still connected to this guy!
Allison, I guess it also depends on each person’s nature, and their way to look at things. Personally, I have quite a cheerful nature, and I’ve been through way bigger tragedies in my life (and I’m NOT talking about men this time). Therefore, I think it’s healthy to look at things with a bit of humour sometimes, obviously, I’m talking about cases like mine, with no drammatic consequences. The “validation” – I know I don’t need it, as I’ve always been quite sure of myself, way before I met him, or whether or not I had a boyfriend. And the attention – of course I liked it back in the “happy times”, but now let’s just say I’m fine with or without it! As I said in my comment below, now I’m just glad things are staying civil, and that we are not giving each other a hard time. What matters the most, though, is NOT to take him seriously if he makes another attempt at coming back and to stay grounded all the time!
“but the thing is he also asked for some professional advice from my mother (they are both lawyers – 😀 ) and I have to ask her and let him know. Ooops, he’s messing with my no-contact policy!”
He’s not messing with your NC, you are. It’s your choice to do favors for him and keep him involved in your life. Sounds like you have to be around him to an extent, but you don’t HAVE to talk to your mother for him. Another thing to consider if you are really through and would like to date again in the future: Would you want to date a new man who’s ex-girlfriend was still hanging around getting him to ask his family for advice/personal favors? I wouldn’t. Hello Enmeshment.
Melanie, to answer your question, I would be cautious if I dated a new guy and his ex-girlfriend was still in the picture. But let’s hope that in this case it’s a “once-off” that he needs advice from my mum. Apart from that, if the guy is forced by circumstances (like in my case) to be in contact with his ex, I guess it would be a matter of trust, of presence or absence of various red flags, like “socializing” with his ex-girlfriend outside of working/school/whatver hours. For example, now I don’t! Not anymore. But I’m not going to leave the organization because of him: it’s an activity I love, I am doing quite a lot in it INDEPENDENTLY of him (I’m more active than him), and I made many wonderful friends thanks to it. But…please translate the word “enmeshment”! English is not my first language and I still have occasional gaps! 😀
Well I do hope things work out but you don’t actually have to do this favor for him. I don’t know maybe you two will be friends in the long run but this (you doing a personal favor for him) seems like an excuse for the both of you to stay in touch. The part about being in the same organization is another matter, if you were participating in the organization without doing personal favors for each other it would be different.
“But…please translate the word “enmeshment”! English is not my first language and I still have occasional gaps! :-D”
I went to google.com and entered “enmeshment” in quotes. I was about to copy and paste some excerpts from various websites but then I realized that you’d benefit most from looking it up on google.com on your own and reading them so that you get a more broad view of the term in various contexts. 🙂
Enmeshment = codependence? And, yeah, to complete it with what you said, I also thought it was an excuse to stay in touch. Now the ball is in my court. My ex is very clever and very cunning, always able to turn the situation to his favour, or to do what it takes to make sure he still “keeps an eye” on me. And this is the part of him that scares me the most! And it would have been really scary in the context of a more serious conflict. 🙁 About being friends in the long run, the thing is I don’t think we’ve ever really been friends, as in we’ve never been in each other’s “friend zone”. We moved straight to romantic interest, to so-called couple, to exes. Not to mention that I’m not friends with any of my exes (not because it ended up badly, but I always thought it’s better this way). I would feel kinda awkward. Let’s just say that at the moment it’s fine to keep it civil between us!
I have to say, it’s been nearly 4 months since my EUM and I broke up. In this time, I have come to realize that he was not the only one who was EU–I was, too. We are each hardwired from childhood and we just react the way we are hardwired to react. It’s like–a fish who swims in water is unaware of the water–it’s just the environment. If a person is hardwired for pain or unrequited love, their behavior will make sure that this is their experience. To blame these people and call them Assclowns or whatever, diminishes the deeper understanding. My guy was hardwired for drama and kept throwing wrenches into the relationship to create drama. If I was not also hardwired for drama, I would have not gotten caught up in it. I don’t blame him or myself. My pain was strong enough to make me look at my pattern of bringing men who were hardwired for drama into my life. It made me realize that I was emotionally unevolved and I needed to evolve. It was not a harsh judgment on myself, just a fact. To really understand that people are doing what they are programmed to do–until they come to the point where they realize they need to re-program–takes the anger and blame out of the situation. It also makes it completely not personal. We participate in emotionally traumatic relationships because that’s what we are wired for, as a result of what happened to us in childhood.
Healing
Terrific post. Running around on the wheel of “I’m to blame for this, he’s to blame for that, I’m to blame …” is exhausting and achieves nothing except to make us miserable and victimised.
I was EU too, I wasn’t a user but at some point in the relationship (mine would go on for years), a part of me would “opt out” and we never got any closer. I had no idea that to be fulfilling a relationship needs to grow to intimacy and real love. That goes way beyond watching out for red flags and avoiding ACs (though that’s still important) .
If I’m half-hearted about relationships and confused; if I’m not sure about myself, of course my relationship are going to be half-hearted, confusing and unsure. We MAKE these relationship. They don’t just fall out of the sky.