Earlier this year, I explained how ‘charming’ tends to be a precursor to code red problems. Mistaking charm for being indicative of other characteristics and values is an example of where we fall into the trap of mistaking personality for character, which is not one and the same thing.
Personality is about persona; it’s about the qualities and characteristics that we want to put across. These may not always be the same as those which represent our true and consistent character. It’s about ‘outside’ and ‘indoor’ behaviour or should I say, the public versus private persona.
A person can have a ‘winning’ personality because they know how to get on and put their best self across.
It’s like those people who are amazing interviewees that get almost every job they go for but who struggle to actually do the job and deliver on what they said that they could be and do. You’re scratching your head wondering where the hell that person who you met in those interviews has disappeared to.
Lots of us know how to act socially, especially when we don’t have to be around these people all of the time. As relationships progress though, we do have to interact in a variety of situations that give us a true sense of who a person is. Once we’re spending a great deal of time around them (such as in a romantic relationship) and they unfold into their true selves, that’s where you see their character, the mental and moral qualities that distinguish a person.
You don’t need mental and moral qualities to be ‘funny’.
Just ask some of the dodgier comedians out there.
You also don’t need mental and moral qualities to be charming and popular. Just ask some of the famous people of this world whose reputations are in stark contrast to what they get up to behind closed doors. It’s also safe to say that a person could be incredibly intelligent but lack morals. A highly common mistake that many humans make is assuming that intelligence is synonymous with morals.
A highly common mistake that many humans make is assuming that intelligence is synonymous with morals.
We might be very intelligent and a number of other things and have strong moral fibre. This doesn’t mean, though, that if we met somebody who worked in the same field as us and was super intelligent, that they would share our core values.
We tend to more impressed by personality than we are with character.
This is due to the associations we have with the particular qualities and characteristics that we admire. If those associations and any assumptions that we’ve made off of the back of them lead us into a blind spot though, it’s important to evaluate these beliefs. We need to get conscious about where we’re jumping to a conclusion that’s setting us up for pain.
Some people are consistent with their personality and character so you don’t experience a rapid departure from either one whether you’re around others or one-on-one. They’re also like this when no one is around. They feel congruent to you and if anything, their personality is enhanced by what you’ve come to learn through experience about their character. It’s a lot easier to copilot a relationship with someone who is like this because you know where you stand. You know who you’re going to get from one day to the next.
Some people chop and change what they’re putting across to suit their audience. When that divergence between personality and character leaves you with a What The… headspin, it’s incredibly disconcerting, especially when there may be a harem of people out there who, based on the persona this person puts across and the reputation they’ve cultivated (or had assumed by others), these people may be swearing up and down about their “character” even though you have first hand experience of something entirely different. You cannot know where you stand with this person because they’re inconsistent. It’s important to note that your experience of them is what you need to use determine whether or not to proceed – no one else has to take your journey and live your life!
Some people pretend that they have a matchy personality and character. In much the same way that hair dye grows out and the roots start to show, people unfold and a person who is playacting at being of a certain character does gradually show signs of it if we’re listening and watching.
Over the years of writing BR, I’ve heard from so many people who are genuinely perplexed as to how somebody can be helping out at the old folks home, doing charity this and charity that, popular in various circles and yet not so kind and generous to them. They wonder what’s “wrong” with them to invite such a different flavour of behaviour but what we forget when we start blaming ourselves for what may be someone’s mistreatment or the fact that their actions and words don’t match, is that if a person’s character is what we say and assume it to be, that’s not just a public or specific person thing; it’s their identity because it matters to their values.
Character is what you get with actions, and security comes in knowing that actions and words are matching.
Character is what you get with actions, and security comes in knowing that actions and words are matching. If you don’t know where you stand with a person, that’s a big damn clue right there that you’ve been mixing up personality with character. If what you’re met with is promises and intentions that don’t stack up, you’ve been enjoying their persona but other aspects of their character and habits have been interfering with the delivery of those said things.
Sometimes we get too carried away with personality. Fun and funny for example, are wonderful qualities to enjoy in a person but they’re not an automatic precursor to desirable characteristics and values. It’s not as if only relationship worthy people can make us laugh for instance (the same can also be said about ‘attractive’ and ‘intelligent’ people) and this is where the difference not only between personality and character shows itself but also how core values distinguish themselves from secondary ones (appearance, common interests etc).
It’s not as if only relationship worthy people can make us laugh…
Reputation is a widespread belief that someone or something has a particular characteristic and it’s important to note that there are people who spend a fortune on reputation management. Some of us are engaging in reputation management even when it’s only one or a a few people, and that can cause us to wear a mask because we worry a great deal about what other people think and also about whether who we are and what we do is “right”. It gets in the way of us being authentic.
In understanding whether you’re compatible with somebody, get past the pomp and fanfare. Character really expresses itself through vulnerability because not only do our intimate relationships require intimacy for depth but dealing with life’s inevitables such as conflict, criticism, disappointment and loss, require us to dig into our character in order to respond. You get a really good sense of who a person is when you tell (or show) them no or when things don’t go their way. That’s character! Pay attention and keep your feet in reality. Don’t get swept up in the hype whether it’s coming from them, others or you, because you cannot make what may be a big life decision (deciding who to spend what may be the rest of your life with) based on what may be packaging without the contents to back it up.
When it comes to personality, there’s nothing wrong with being attracted to particular qualities but don’t assume that those things you admire are an automatic precursor to other values and that they’re telling you all that you need to know about their character.
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One of your very best meditations, Natalie (imo)! I especially liked the charming job-applicant who sucks at the job analogy. 🙂
Larry
Wow! Thanks so much for writing this- it really clarifies alot of issues for me!
Great post. One of the most important lessons for me in a long time has been focusing on whether or not a persons actions and words match, and when they don’t to pay attention! Depending on the situation, I end it then or I pay really close attention thereafter if I chose to or have to continue the relationship (business, etc..). I’ve been taken in too many times with people who’s reputations for being great people (honest, trustworthy, etc…) and who were really just good actors (charming). I have a long-term former “friend” that I am currently in NC with that fits that bill. I bought into his reputation without examining the evidence of our interactions. He didn’t follow through on things or did them half way, often to my detriment.
Charming, after a while, is like stinky cheese! When someone starts charming me I now wonder why that person it working so hard on me? What is it they are after?
I’m finally to the point where I’m not willing to buy into the charm, or chase people and jump through hoops for love and attention. If they wanna run, see ya! Thankfully I’m getting (gotten to?) to the point where the wrong ones don’t feel right. I’m might wrestle a little bit with the old feelings, but I ultimately choose me and let the charmers find someone else to work on.
Veracity,
Your comments resonate with me, as I sit her nodding my head in agreement. I too have gotten to the stage where “I ultimately choose me and let the charmers find someone else to work on.” Ne’er a truer word spoken.
In retrospect, I think I’ve always been this way – hence why a lot of my ‘situationships’ never last beyond 3-6 months. When guys start showing their true colours (usually around the 3-6 month mark for me) that’s when I tend to cut and run – a pattern that has been taking place for the last 12 years (I’m 30 now).
Natalie is completely on the mark! I’ve always been sucked in by guys with the looks, confidence, swagger and charisma – and it’s always been the same disappointing ending. Yet, when I’ve dated the sweet, thoughtful, quiet, humble guys – I get bored or find myself seeking flaws in them – he’s too shy, too accommodating, not assertive enough, not exciting enough etc.
It’s pure insanity! How did I become so accustomed to these tawdry encounters with assclowns/emotionally unavailable men? Why can’t I appreciate a good man when he’s right there in front me? I could’ve saved myself a lot of tears and heartache if I learned this lesson 10 years ago…
Yes, I’m guilty of making decisions based on a man’s persona/personality, rather than his character. Not proud of it, but at least there’s still time for me to rehabilitate myself and stop repeating this same tired pattern.
I love this part: “We might be very intelligent and a number of other things and have strong moral fibre but that’s not to say that if we met somebody who worked in the same field as us and was super intelligent, that they would share our core values.”
There’s a psychological phenomenon about this, where when we have feelings for someone (romantic or otherwise), we are inclined to believe this means they think the same way we do, or hold the same beliefs. When I lament about how much I miss the ex, it’s mostly about our shared academic or professional interests, their sense of humor, and their intelligence. All of these are great, of course, but as Nat points out, do not a relationship make! Unfortunately time only shows you how people handle success, failure, and a host of other scenarios.
I’ve found that an individuals true character comes out during hard times, having to emotionally be present. Yet one more reason to not emotionally attach too soon and let the person unfold.
Noquay, I agree. Hence the notion of old-fashioned courtship and long engagements which required TIME! We’ve thrown all this out in our quest for quick gratification, and this works to the benefit of ACs, who need to achieve their objectives (sex, money, being taken care of, a place to live, fun and games, etc.) quickly before they unfold. Gawd, I never thought I’d live long enough to admit that my mother AND grandmother were right! 🙂
Me either. It’s very sad …
Noquay, this is so true letting the person unfold. And what I’ve noticed is that a lot of men unfold *after* being intimate. It’s almost like they have scored and now they can let it all loose! And boy do they let it loose. No matter how careful I am and ask questions to get to know them beforehand, they come out with some crazy stuff. For instance, I ask them if they take drugs, and they say no. But after we are intimate, they reveal they are hooked on Vicodin and take it for recreation purposes. Or they are in major debt, or major financial trouble…
No matter how careful I am, these men drop a bomb right after we are intimate, where I have to end it, because it’s a dealbreaker. And I’m talking like waiting 2-3 months to be intimate. I wonder if others have this experience as well, where the guy reveals his true colors after you are intimate?
Kellia
Yep, and sometimes the fact that the dude is willing to/wants to wait that long is also a sign of trouble. Some dudes can maintain for a looong time, especially if they live outside of ones town. If you can meet men from ones social circle, you know their warts before-hand; met my ex husband that way. Apart from not emotionally investing too soon, there’s always gonna be an element of risk. Looking over the past few years here, I would say that my really, really paying attention to what a dude says/does sussed out the majority of problems long before the intimate stage. Listen to your gut. Those that are really good at hiding will get by most peoples radar, those whose problems are deeper than addictions, financial irresponsibility, will take longer. However, our guts often tell us that all is now well but we arent sure what the issue is. Sometimes we are blinded by love/lust/hope that, as Nat says, we don’t see the forest for the trees.
Kellia,
I know what you mean. You really have to listen to your gut, you can read my post on having just met a guy online and what’s coming up. But, I have found things show up after the intimate stage, like one guy seemed to reveal a temper any time he was triggered right after we came back from a trip where we were intimate, 3 months into the relationship. He also started to pull away. I think many men are not really ready for a relationship, but want sex and so behave well until they get it and then start unfolding…as you pointed out. I think they do this knowingly. The last guy I dated for 6 weeks said to me ‘Don’t you want to at least have sex before we break up?’ to which I replied, No, if this isn’t going to work, sex is the last thing I want. He didn’t get that. There you have it!
I have found that it’s not even being “intimate,” it’s once he thinks he’s got you hooked that he often starts tripping because he thinks you’re so crazy about him that you’ll put up with it. As I think the wise Noquay said above, that’s a good reason not to rush into getting attached.
Holy crap! You hit the nail right on the head with this one. I met the most charming guy, great qualities, funny, sweet, mature. And at the end of the day he disappointed, and his actions didn’t match his words. I mistook his personality for his character! At first I couldn’t make sense of any of it. This just completely clarified it for me. Thank you!
Once again, Natalie, you nailed it with laser precision.
My former assclown (So far, I have nine months of Zero Contact with her) was exactly*** the kind of woman I had searched for all my life.
I had first become involved with her 14 years ago, but I dumped her when I found out she was cheating on me with her ex. I didn’t have any contact with her for 10 years after that, but last year I figured the coast was clear and it was safe to at least try to start a friendship.
My, how she had matured over the years!
For a while, she was brilliant, funny, articulate, flattering, soft spoken, beautiful, sexy, alluring, charming, sparkly… and she even still had the perfect eye and hair color to match my list of “important things” to look for in a life partner.
***Well, not exactly.
She was still a cheater, liar, passive aggressive, hypochondriacal, MARRIED, wishy washy, her words never matched her actions, she also was still a gaslighter, cheap, controlling, frigid, ran hot and cold, had to have her way or else, obsessive compulsive, and of course she was moody with a sharp tongue she used with the precision of a sadistic surgeon.
How superficial was I to overlook all the deal breaker crap because just the sight of her made my heart leap and I wanted to be with her more than breathe?
Finally, I started writing about the nature of our ever-more frequent fights, and saw patterns emerging in her behavior that clued me into her true nature, and I realized that if we were to ever try to live together, someone might end up in jail, an insane asylum or beat half to death.
Seeing those predictable patterns remerge and her boundary busting flaws still the same as ever, I finally realized the “intense love” I felt for her was addiction. She was like what I imagine shooting heroin, cocaine or speed would be like–the first time was heaven and from then on, a living hell.
The final hurdle in moving on for good this time was when I realized that, of my memories of her (or anyone I’d ever loved who had both great and horrible facets of their personalities), I tended to only remember the wonderful parts and I’d forget all the nightmarish, crazymaking parts.
That’s where journaling has really paid off. About eight months after No Contact (that was last month)I started wishing we could “just talk” and “be friends” again. I missed her. Maybe I was too hard on her, I thought.
I caught myself and saw I was jonesing for her like a junkie was for dope. “Just one more little hit and I could walk away,” I told myself. “We can just be friends- it won’t have to be a romance again.”
Sensing an oncoming relapse, I thought about what month last year it first turned from amazing to a pack of lies and arguments. That was the first journal I started re-reading.
Whew. Once I had reminded myself through reading what a bitch she was, I lost the urge to see her again, call and tell her off, or even think about her.
Now when I get a twitch, I just remember I no longer do cheaters, liars or married flakes, so she’s still OUT. And if I get a second twitch, I force myself to read more excerpts from last years’ journals.
Yep, she had a great personality and stunning beauty, but those were just the bait she’s always used to lure in new victims. Once she gets the baited hook in and pulls her prey out of the water, she’s strictly “catch and release.”
>{{{‘> No more of that shit for this fish.
Yay Karen! I hadn’t thought of journalling as a way of creating The Box (the place where you keep all the bad stuff that happened in the relationship, to remind you not to go back), but it’s a brilliant notion.
Nothing like reliving the bad stuff to make you wake up and smell the coffee.
Thanks, Ethelreda, I always love reading your comments. After journaling enough to fill a dozen books in the last year (retirement is fabulous to provide me with that kind of time to write) it has boiled down to this: adults like me who’ve had a succession of lousy relationships with assclowns, EUs and cheaters, have to eventually go back to childhood and see WTF happened. Once I figured out who, what, when, where, how and why my perceptions got knocked off the tracks, I was able to journal what I call “connecting-the-dots” stuff like, “I kept falling for cheaters because I was attracted to cheaters. I was attracted to cheaters because my parents were role models–dad cheated and mom was a suffering martyr. I chose to play her role as an adult because it was slightly less noxious than his…” By the time I uprooted all the crazy shit from childhood, rinsed it off and labeled it, only then could I say, “Okay, now I know why I was so effed up for so long. So, in order to finally develop the self esteem I never had, I have to learn to trust myself 100% that I’ll henceforth protect myself from people pleasing, selling myself short, dating creeps, users, cheaters, ad nauseam. As I kept being true to myself, my trust grew. As my trust grew I developed a more internal locus of control, i.e. I no longer depend on others to tell me if I or my art or writing is good enough; I am qualified to judge those things for myself. And I don’t allow me to put myself down or ruminate on my shortcomings anymore, so now I am more adept at catching others treating me shabbily. It was tricky to dump a few “friends” I made when I had zero self esteem, but the moment I saw patterns of emotional abuse emerge (through journaling) BAM–out they’d go.
Now I’m trying to figure out what to do with the Godzilla of all personal relationships: my older sister. She was a mother figure to me as a child and I idolized her until recently, but now that I’m 61 and she’s 68, I was hoping she’d become a sweet little old lady, but she gets meaner and more shrill by the week. Her female partner of 27 years will not tolerate my sister back-talking or getting angry or else she will punish her, like cheating on her, giving her the silent treatment, etc. So, my sister has used me as her punching dummy to offload her rage for the last 25 years. I always thought it was my fault, too. My sister is a lawyer–she has a doctorate in bullshitting people. Especially me.
Back in June after I’d connected those dots, I was ready to take the 100 mile drive up to their house so I could punch my sister in one of her two faces. Reason prevailed though, so instead I e-mailed her and said I was going to take a month or two break from her. She kept e-mailing me snippy little replies to get in the last word, so I finally said, “The break I mentioned was a boundary, effective immediately, so there’s no need to keep write back.”
She sent back a blank e-mail, only in the subject line she wrote, “You are exhaustingly needy. MAKE IT SIX MONTHS.”
I did not reply because (a)I was sort of thrilled she made the break that much longer,and (b)I respect people’s boundaries even if they were made in anger and (c) needy? WTF? Anyway, 6 months is like 6 years for an old lady, but hey–it’s not my problem that she acts before she thinks.
Anyway, through journaling my ass off about her for the last 6 months, I raged, had imaginary conversations & arguments with her, wrote and rewrote letters I wanted to send to her, listed every creepy, mean thing she’d ever done to me, and basically I wrote till I ran out of emotional gas. I got everything off my chest. On Dec. 3, the 6 month break was over but there has been NC. Alas, I have to see her at Christmas at my brother’s house, and after all that journaling, here’s what I decided to do. Nothing. I will treat her as I would an unexpected guest at a family holiday gathering–politely but that’s it. I am not giving her or her domineering partner jack-shit in gifts. They will both go overboard (they are richer than the Windsors) and get me something extravagant because that’s how my family always makes peace–with cash and prizes, not words. I will quietly say either no thanks or I will open it, say thank you and go put it in their car or leave it at my brother’s house. I’d rather eat a live snake than accept another bribe and remain her whipping boy. If she said I am needy, fine, I simply won’t accept anything from her, ever again. Essentially that will clip off any method she has to show me love, say she’s sorry OR hold any strings on me. Journaling has taught me one super handy truth: I hate drama, but I don’t have to tell anyone that. People who blab on and on about hating drama are being dramatic just by mentioning it. So I will avoid drama by reacting to my sister’s usual tricks as little as possible, unless I get her off by herself and then I’ll tell her to leave me the phuck alone. She’s counting on me to lose my cool in front of everyone so she can point to me and say, “See how crazy she is?” Not showing a hint of drama may not be a perfect solution but it will lay the groundwork for our old age–if she keeps treating me like dirt she’ll have to do it from afar so I don’t have to tolerate it.
Brilliant!
I will quietly say either no thanks or I will open it, say thank you and go put it in their car or leave it at my brother’s house. I’d rather eat a live snake than accept another bribe and remain her whipping boy.
I’d completely go for the calm and polite and reasonably sincere-sounding ‘thank you’, and then ‘forgetting’ it when you leave option. This avoids any grounds for them to make a scene about being insulted.
You’ll have to stage-manage your exit to be really quick, and have it well-hidden so no one else will helpfully produce it at the last minute.
The vindictive streak in me adds, “Of course, if it’s something completely FABULOUS and super-expensive, like a Carribean cruise, I’d accept it gladly and use it to death, but never get them anything in return. You could consider it a form of long-overdue ‘back payment’ for all the rubbish you put up with for ages.”
But that may just open up old wounds. It’s your call.
I wouldn’t care if they gave me an all expenses paid trip to the moon. That would mean she and her slave master would be accompanying me and I’d once again become their golf caddy so their sub/domme game can continue and l’d be on hand for my sister to beat with clubs if her bosslady made her angry.
Great point! Journaling is an excellent way to see patterns, in yourself as well as in others.
Since I have a similar propensity to see the good stuff and gloss over or forget the not so good stuff in relationships, I have started jotting down things that ping my radar when I first start a relationship. It helps to keep me balanced in my thinking – to stay out of fantasy land where I used to camp out for extended stays. When I’m feeling insecure in the relationship, I just look at the list and it’s reality staring me in the face.
This site is a life saver. It’s great to hear how others are making their way on this journey through healing. You guys are wonderful!
karen – what does gaslighting mean? I also think your story is a great example of how even 10 years later, they don’t CHANGE. I have to continually tell myself that my ex hasn’t changed. And he hasn’t. I had proof of that this summer.
Lynn,
There is a great old movie called ‘Gaslight’ made in 1944. It’s about a charming husband who drives his wife to insanity by constantly making her doubt her perceptions. It’s an amazing movie and quite scarey to watch this charming man do this, because he is so charming, it’s hard to doubt him. Watch this movie and you will know exactly how gaslighting is performed.
Lynn said it for me, quite eloquently.
Needed this one. December it is.
Great post Natalie. I made the huge mistake of getting involved with a man who has a very charming personality and is well liked, popular and very intelligent. I loved all of those things about him and I loved all of the attention he gave me. I had never gotten anything like it from any man I have known ever in my life. (I am 55). He always knew the right thing to “text.” He is a pillar of his community, a politician, a well known media personality and does charitable work all over the place. He did not always live up to his promises with me – ok – he never did. He is married and told me that his wife did not appreciate him, they did not get along, they were just friends at this point. He said he needed to maintain his image to keep his job. I guess it is possible. His behavior was odd at times. Even though it was via texts, I was bewildered – a lot. He seemed like he was trying to hurt me??? I did not understand why. I was always nice to him. He told me he acted that way because he had never been involved with another woman other than his wife, and he did not know how to handle it. Apparently I was so gosh darn amazing that I just overwhelmed this poor man. (We had never met when he started emailing me). I have gone back and forth with contacting/not contacting him for 6 months, which is exhausting. I never know what the reality is and shift from feeling bad about myself, feeling sorry for him, feeling excited to hear from him, then being pissed off by something he says or does, which makes me mad at myself for continuing my contact with him. I knew in my brain that he was probably playing me but I genuinely liked him. His personality, even his arrogance, was entertaining and cute to me. He always seemed so desperate when I cut contact with him, he missed me terribly, said I was the only one who could make him happy. Two days ago, he accidentally sent me a pretty detailed text that was clearly intended for another woman, and not his wife. He does not like to make mistakes, ever…. He caught his error and then immediately texted me back and asked me what I thought of the passage from the new novel he was working on??? I could not believe this guy…a total Assclown!!! I thought about it, read the text several times and then told him I thought his novel should definitely be Fiction. He responded that he was really excited about it, and if he finished it, he was going to ask me to be his publicist, because I was his biggest fan. I laughed all day long….Then I went home and looked in the mirror..and asked myself some serious questions about his character, and my own. I have work to do. This was a big lesson for me. Thank you for all of your posts Natalie. If it were not for this man, I never would have found your website. You have helped me survive and make some sense out of the craziness I have felt. I need to own my own behavior and character and ask myself why I find a man like him so intriguing. Probably because he is unavailable. I started No Contact again yesterday…I am more confident that I will stick with it this time and be just a little bit smarter the next time I consider getting involved with someone.
Two days ago, he accidentally sent me a pretty detailed text that was clearly intended for another woman, and not his wife. He does not like to make mistakes, ever…. He caught his error and then immediately texted me back and asked me what I thought of the passage from the new novel he was working on???
Oh, smooth. Very smooth.
LOL
Yes, I agree… very, very smooth.
Michelle might have been born at night, but she wasn’t born *last* night 😉
Good one! 😉
LOL..FOR SURE!!
WTF was I thinking???
This was by far the most priceless piece of crap I have ever encountered.
Don’t you love it when life hands you some hilarious flub made by an assclown? Whenever my sniveling ex would say or do something especially ratty to me or I’d catch her in another colossal lie, I’d say, “You know I’m gonna write a book about this, doncha?” She knew I was a professional journalist AND journaling my ass off about us, so she always gulped and simmered down after I’d remind her of the book. What she didn’t know is that I really am going to write a book– about dating assclowns and family dysfunction. And guess who the villain will be? 😉
Michelle,
All you need to know is that he is MARRIED!
Good Lord, You’re communication has all been by text and email! There’s no relationship, here, simply a creepy pen pal. This is fantasy!
Find someone who is single and who you can interact with, face-to-face.
Michelle –
Did he happen to mention that he was writing a book before this ‘error’? I’m guessing no, wow, that’s funny! What are you doing with a married man anyways?? Flush quickly, because your place must be getting stinky!
No mention of the Novel before the error. He hung himself with his own rope…I did not have to do anything…
The very next day he asked me if he could arrange a “visit” with me..
God Bless the wife of this Narcissist. I can only imagine
what she must have to deal with every day.. No wonder she does not appreciate him, she has no idea who she is married to.
Michelle,
Don’t delude yourself. Every married guy that is having an affair says his wife “does not appreciate him.”
Spot on. Thank you for sending this at the moment I needed it most!
“Character is what you get with actions, and security comes in knowing that actions and words are matching.”
THANK YOU, NATALIE!
THIS EXACTLY “Some people are consistent with their personality and character so you don’t experience a rapid departure from either one whether you’re around others or one-on-one. They’re also like this when no one is around. They feel congruent to you and if anything, their personality is enhanced by what you’ve come to learn through experience about their character. It’s a lot easier to copilot a relationship with someone who is like this because you know where you stand. You know who you’re going to get from one day to the next.”
You’ve summed up for me what I’ve been trying to explain and make sense of. Brilliant!! Thank you!
Great post! I’m dealing with this right now. I responded to this man’s online profile because his opening line was, “I will ask you 10 questions about your day before I would tell you about mine.” I thought, now this sounds like a thoughtful guy. Plus he’s attractive, has similar values as me etc. He live in a different state, so we’ve been talking via phone.
I noticed after the first conversation that he didn’t ask me too many questions, but loved it when I asked him questions. Then he told me how he loves it when people ask him questions and he like to give a very thorough answer and wants the person to keep asking ad listening to get a real sense of him. Yet, I never really felt this coming back to me.
In our last conversation he told me that he didn’t feel I went deep enough in listening to him. He would like real undivided attention, and suggested we each talk for half an hour each without being interrupted, so we can get a deeper sense of each other. I got the feeling he wants this more for his own need to be heard, because he didn’t go into deep inquiry with me and he’s a therapist too boot!
Also, he work with children and claims to love them, yet won’t date a woman with children, because mom’s don’t give him enough attention. I love children too, which is one thing we value, yet, I would love to be with a guy with a child and I have been and treated her like my own. So, I question his true ‘love of children’.
Anyways, what started out as great conversation and shared values etc. is starting to feel unnatural to me. I’m getting a sense that this guy is a narcissist, and he is accusing most women he meets of being narcissistic because they don’t ask him questions.
I also find it funny that what he wrote in his profile is what he wants, not what he is. I’m also wondering if this is ‘controlling’ behavior, dictating how we should communicate and listen etc, feels unnatural to me, even though I love the idea of being heard and deep inquiry, but not as a steady diet. It’s more therapeutic than relational. What do you guys think?
whatever, that does>/i> sound kind of weird.
I am very cautious now of calling anyone a ‘narcissist’, because I think the term is over-used when what we really mean is ‘vain’, or ‘pain in the ass’, or ‘manipulative’ or ‘unpleasantly controlling’. People can be all those things, at one time or another, and still not meet the criteria for a clinical definition of narcissism.
Another reason I am cautious of calling anyone this is that I have noticed that the people who tend to accuse others of narcissism are in many cases very vain, pains in the ass, and manipulative and unpleasantly controlling. In other words, THEY are the ones you might think are actually narcissists!
This man to me sounds like he’s trying to duplicate an earlier relationship where he got this kind of DEEP stuff that he liked. Not everyone is capable of it, and you shouldn’t feel bad about it if you aren’t able to ‘perform’. You’re not a circus pony.
Either that, or he’s put out his best shingle to try to draw in the ladies, and he now can’t follow through.
Ethelreda,
Totally agree!
I also am tired of the overuse of sociopath. These words are usually inappropriately used for someone who has treated us poorly. Maybe, they’re simply assholes.
Ethelreda,
Thanks for your comments. I actually am capable of this deep stuff and I used to want this too, but the way this guy presents it is off. Depth comes naturally if you have someone who is interested and capable, that’s why I thought we resonated well at first. However, this is unnatural. It’s like demanding love, actually, that’s what he told me, that this is how he feels loved. Interesting though, he didn’t bother to ask how I like to be loved. Yeah, I can do it, but he does feel like a ‘pain in the ass’ and vain. I’m tempted to tell him this, but not sure if I should bother.
He’s got a script all written out.
AA therapist is using you for talk therapy. ick, both professionally and personally. run, run away.
Ethreda
For the most part I would agree EXCEPT those cases where the individual has been diagnosed by folk with the qualifications to do so. From personal experience, knowing you have been dealing with a narc, work with this person so you cannot simply absent yourself, is very useful both in understanding the emotional devastation that occurs and why and in handling situations where you must work with the person in the future. That way one understands that one was dealing witha far larger issue than mere assholery, you don’t blame yourself, and you can then take steps to heal. I have a neighbor who is a hoarder and paranoid; I have read everything I can on the subject; why? Because when, as a homeowner, trying to get his yard cleaned up (so he doesn’t burn down half the block), one needs to know how hoarders operate and why so the situation can be dealt with in the kindest way possible. Another hoarder gets violent when the town makes him get rid of stuff; good info to know.
Miss whatever…he sounds like a total assclown narcissist to me.
Whatever, I think the man sounds like a sad person incapable of real intimacy and trying to control others because he is too insecure and anxious to have a real relationship where you enjoy and RELATE to others. Q&A is not how a relationship works. I dont know if he’s an AC etc., but he’s clearly not cut out for a relationship, or even a friendship or anything that would be socially satisfying! I think we should always think of our best friends when we are judging men. You have to feel safe and comfortable around people, especially people you are letting into your life. Acquaintances etc you can keep your guard up with, but friends, romantic partners, you need to have trust and affection. This relationship, Whatever, is a no-go from the get-go.
Suki,
Thank you for putting into words what I am feeling! He is not relating, or he was, until he told me that he wants this Q & A style of relating(love that!) which is NOT real relating! When I asked him why he never married (he is 12 years older than me), he said he had issues of abandonment, he couldn’t love because he was afraid of losing his partner through death…..but now he’s over that, yet, he hasn’t had the relationship to prove it. I think you are right about him being so insecure and not cut out for a relationship. He told me his favorite person is his friend who asks him so many questions and lets him go on and on until he has talked enough. This is the type of partner he wants.
When I asked him why he never married (he is 12 years older than me), he said he had issues of abandonment, he couldn’t love because he was afraid of losing his partner through death
RUN AWAY
RUN AWAY
RUN AWAY
Alison is right. Self-involved baby.
He did some other things I didn’t like,
RUN AWAY
RUN AWAY
RUN AWAY
Alternatively, step right back, keep your head cool and your powder dry, and try the Six Month Rule recommended further down the page by Jenny. It sounds like a really level-headed approach.
Whatever,
He sounds like a self-involved baby.
You know something is off. Why are you questioning yourself?
Also, if you really want a relationship, then why not someone local. Long distance is fantasy, unless that’s what you want/
Allison,
I am sensing that something is off, however, I didn’t want to jump to conclusions too soon, because he seemed to present as a great guy with so many of the qualities I am looking for and we seemed to have the same world view, even the deep relating is something I desire, but the way he presented it, almost as a demand and the criticism of how we were relating, this is what is making me question him. He did some other things I didn’t like, he told me about some of his other dates, even as recent as the night before we spoke. This didn’t feel good and they were narcissists in his opinion because they didn’t ask any questions about him. This coming from an educated therapist sounds very strange too.
I say follow your gut. If you know something is “off” – it probably is. He may be a narcissist or a sociopath or an asshole or a baby or just particular…who knows? But you have spent a lot of time trying to figure him out. You will probably spend (waste) a lot more.
And this is important what Michelle says – if you’re spending all your time trying to figure him out, its a waste anyway. Even relationships where you are living it can get messy. If you havent even started living the relationship and are already spending precious head space to understand his behavior – ugh, why do we keep getting ourselves into these situations?!
I agree. Don’t waste time trying to figure him out. if anything, look at what is that makes you doubt your perceptions and spend time on that.
Veracity
Good point, why do I doubt my perceptions? The reason I can come up with so far is that I seem to have a knack for finding out what’s off with a man, and there always has been and so then I question, when will I NOT find something off? and what follows is, Will I ever be able to be in a relationship if I keep saying ‘next!’?
Then I ask myself Do I want to be right (finding the ‘off’) or do I want to be happy? I want to give people the benefit of the doubt. That’s why I question my perception. Perhaps I am too good at seeing the wrong in men and not the right. And damn it, they seem to never disappoint!
I want to be happy and I want to be in a relationship, however, I know I can’t ignore my knowing,so here I find myself.
Whatever, your quest for drama is driving. It’s like reverse Cinderella, you keep trying to make the man fit. It’s like you’re thinking ‘OK, this man is here now….who knows if there is another one on the horizon. I’d better do the best I can to make this into a relationship. I’ll twist and bend any way it takes to make him fit.’ Anything he says is the way you’ll be, because you are showing how willing you are to “please”, doing “your part” for the relationship. You have not even evaluated if you want HIM. It seems like it is just because he is “there” you’ve decide you have to “work on” a relationship. At this early stage, you should be shopping for a GOOD fit, and not trying to make it fit just because it’s there.
Do you really need other people to tell you all the red flags you are ignoring? Are you really so eager to be coupled that you give benefit of the doubt to controlling behavior?
I can’t believe you’re even questioning this. It feels “off” because it is “off”. It is really weird and definitely a forced fake form of “intimacy”. Intimacy and getting to know each other requires a give and take, not a monologue to a silent audience. Just mho.
Whatever,
What about a local guy?
whatever – I think you should flush. Plus he lives in another state. Don’t you want to meet someone nearby? My ex was a talker. He hated silence. I never thought he was listening to me. He would just vomit out information. And most of the time when I would add in something to the conversation it would go back to him. I think the guy said those things in his profile to lure you in….online date is a crapshoot in my opinion. I know some people who have found their husband online, but I so far have found nothing that great.
Whatever – Is this guy for real? He actually told you he wants a 30 minute monologue each? And he criticized you saying you didn’t listen to him enough. I’m not so sure if he loves kids, because if he did, he wouldn’t mind dating women with children. And he gave the excuse that the mothers won’t give him enough attention. Sounds like he’s quite self-absorbed and it’s all about him. And what’s his obsession with women asking him questions. He’s putting all these rules and regulations, what is this militaristic dating? I’m exhausted just from reading all this about him. He’s a piece of work and sounds high-maintenance. Imagine if you told a guy all that: that he must ask you questions and he didn’t listen *enough* to you. You’d be pegged psycho in a nano second. He is controlling and completely insecure. Relationships happen organically, just like they do with friendship. No one spells out behavioral terms, as the interaction happens naturally. Not according to a militaristic regime that dictates each party speak for 30 minutes exactly. If he’s so controlling now, what will happen down the line. You can use the bathroom between certain hours and only for 2 minutes??? This guy is psycho. Sorry to be harsh, but this is not normal.
Kellia
Yes, he told me he is emotionally high maintenance. Thanks for your post.
Whatever,
definitely FLUSH.
…and after you flush, use bowl cleaner in case you missed any crap crumbs.
It’s always frustrating when companies take the amazing interviewee first when you know that their public persona doesn’t always match who they really are. (SIGH) It’s like high school all over again, lol!
Wow. I loved this post. Thanks Natalie!
I am really grateful for this site, and for whatever else is going on in my life lately (hmm… could it be that I’m 39 and have been dealing with dodgy men like this for 14 years!? lol), that is making me feel almost no emotion lately about the 11 year old AC ex of mine, this post describes him to a ‘T’. Funny, intelligent, great in bed, etc.. etc, but, never knew where I stood for years.. it was so confusing, painful, emotional, just crazy. And you wonder how you can have such a good time with someone… then, not know where you stand with them, or they do a 180 within a few hours, or a day… and you’re like… ‘wtf just happened?’ and then being manipulated/blamed… omg, why oh why did I deal with that for so long? I just got so tired of it, that I just didn’t even care anymore. One day I was his ‘girlfriend’, next week.. umm.. “I don’t know what’s going on..” ? whaaat? And this was a ‘grown’ man.
And I think why we might stay in relationships like that, is because exactly what this post says… how can someone not have good intentions, but yet be so fun to be around?? say one thing, do another? be fine and happy with us for a day, or two, or a week or two.. then.. get cold and distant shortly after? It’s so confusing. Then we wonder if it’s us! then we go crazy.
So, I think for me, it’s just gotten to the point where there is no pay off for me. I enjoy being solo, rather than that crap. It’s so peaceful not dealing with someone else’s drama. I stopped caring about who’s right or wrong, or blaming myself. Screw it. What was I getting out of it anyway? some laughs, good sex? a bunch of words and phrases that never materialized into action? …it was ridiculous. I think I’m just so happy that I saw the dynamic for what it was, and it wouldn’t matter what I did, or said, or how ‘perfect’ I would behave, it would’ve still had the same results. And when he does get with someone else… and if it works out, they get married, blah blah… good. I don’t care. Better than me being in that nightmare, lol. I used to make his behavior about me. I stopped doing that. I got very real with myself, and stopped second guessing myself. I know what doesn’t make me feel good in a relationship. I know what characteristics I don’t like in a person. Not to mention, I wasn’t ‘happy’.
I also got real about me not having the ‘best’ self-esteem all the time, or confidence when it comes to certain things. And I know I’m not alone with that. All I know, and what I’ve learned… if I’m being authentic, and true to myself.. how can anything be ‘wrong’? how could I question anymore whether or not someone’s behavior or mistreatment was about me? Or them being happy and wanting a life with me one day, and not the next, was about me? It wasn’t. I just hope that other women (or men) out there, who might be going through what I was… eventually gets it. It’s a shame I wasted so much energy on someone who didn’t deserve it, and the wrong one.
Demke….You sound like me…after 30 Years of off and on with this Clown..never feeling good enough,rich enough or anything else enough,I am DONE…He is a good Man,but NOT for me. Have not seen him for three Years and I started No Contact 19 Months ago (He kept calling on the Phone). I am not Young anymore (72) he just turned 84..I now see I am Happy when he is Not in my Life…it was not easy but it is best for ME.
30 years – that is a long time. It is so easy to get caught up into the vortex though…
Rock on Wanda.. I hope you meet a nice young man:).
Wanda, I love you! Posts like this remind me – and everyone else – that 30 is NOT the end of the line, nor is 40, or 50, or even 60. It is never too late to be happy, with or without someone.
Demke, It’s so frustrating to have someone with wonderful qualities you admire yank your emotions around like that. It is emotional abuse. I was reading up on boundaries the other day and the author pointed out that intermittant reinforcement drives rats crazy…litteraly. I believe that’s what a lot of these folks do with their acting like their in, then acting like their out. It’s crazymaking. It has nothing to do with you.
I’ve just come to realize that I idealize men/people just like I did with my parents. When I stop doing that and make us all equal, I put up with way less BS. They aren’t better than, I’m no worse than them (nor better).
You deserve someone that’s all in and you don’t had to wonder.
I hope you don’t give up.
yea, I just wasted ten years when I should have left after two or three…..all the signs were there!
So, lets enjoy the fact that we finally are free at last. Enjoy the rest of our lives in love, honor and respect…
So wise. So wise.
It’s also a good opportunity to put the focus back on The Person In The Mirror and ask:
‘Do I have character, or just personality?’
‘Would I date me, if I was looking for character?’
‘Am I getting by on my looks?’
‘Am I getting by on lazy flirtations?’
‘How do I come across to others – as a complainer? a user? a nag? someone with a chip on her shoulder?’
I have a long history of crushes on men with lots of personality, but much less steady character. They are charming – and a ‘charm’ is a form of trickery; a magic spell, after all.
Amen!
I see “the perfect love” who turns out to show you a sea of red and yellow flags, the same way I see the perfect pair of shoes. They may be the shoes of your dreams and they may even be on sale, but if they don’t fit and they give you blisters every time you wear them–forget it. Find a size that fits.
Dear Natalie,
I cannot express the true extend of my gratitude for your weekly posts and the knowledge and wisdom that is in each and every one. It’s just true and I had many moments of clarity and then sometimes I lose it. This is just so incredibly helpful along the process I am finding myself in and it is fascinating
“It’s important to note that your experience of them is what you need to use determine whether or not to proceed – no one else has to take your journey and live your life!”.
Right on!! Thank you. Couldn’t say better. You rock!!
Gee. First let me say that this blog has been a life-saver. This is my first post, but I will try to be brief. I was in a two+ year relationship with a man 6 years younger (I am 63, he is 57 now). We met online and he came on so strong (i.e, hot pursuit, future faking, fast forwarding, etc.) He was newly (2nd) divorced and I am widowed after 30 years of marriage. On an early date, I told him that I thought he was and should be dating others given his new freedom after so many years of being married and raising children. I was seeing a few, but nothing intimate. He insisted that he was interested only in me, and eventually I relented to exclusivity (word to wise…dating around (not sleeping) is not bad until more is revealed). We had a glorious year together and shared much together. He was somewhat estranged from his family and spent vacations, two Thanksgivings, two Christmases, and one Easter with my family and me. He met all of my friends, socialized with me, but I met only one of his friends, as he didn’t have many. We functioned as if we were a committed couple, but he eventually did not have “time” to spend with me, was inconsistent and ambiguous and even stated that he wasn’t ready for a relationship. (I did not know about the red flags at the time). I asked him again if he felt he needed to explore his freedom in his newly-divorced state, but he always stated that he only wanted to be with me. However, he did blow hot and cold and aloof at many times. Fast forward to the time when my only sibling died and lo and behold, my EUM told me within days of that event that he “wanted a break”. Given the timing, I told him the break would be permanent, and I have been virtually (a few slip ups) NC for 6 months. I found out that he had a private profile on Google+ and most likely was trolling for others during our time together, notwithstanding his constant denials of being interested in others. From the start he told me how as a former military man he was a man of “honesty and integrity” and that he never had cheated on his two spouses. (Now, I really do not believe that as I suspect he was accessing other women during his time with me). In any event, my point is that this guy was a man of wonderful manners, presence, seemingly good personality, and fit in with any circumstance. It is his character that I now question – he left me (and in essence, my family) within days of my brother’s death, apparently to pursue another women. So,personality be damn…it is all about the content of the character. This blog has allowed me to remain NC and to move on. Thank you.
Junesbug,
There is a good point in your story. This man did not know what he truly needed (time to date), you knew this, yet you went along with his NOT Knowing, instead of your own knowing. I can’t tell you how many times I have thought, I’m not right for this guy, or he’s not ready for a relationship but stayed because this pursed me, only to find out I was right. Moral of the story, you need to look at both people and if you see that it’s not right for him, even if doesn’t know it yet, you need to back away.
That is a wonderful insight, whatever. Thanks for that post!!
Junesbug, This guy announcing that he is a person of “honesty and integrity” raises a red flag. Someone who is actually a person of integrity doesn’t feel the need to walk around telling others what kind of person they are ~ they simply act with integrity.
Spot on as always. Succinctly details the behaviours of many people I have been attracted to over the years for all the wrong reasons. Fortunately I can spot them more easily now. Thanks.
So very well said!
Love, love, love this! My mother has what she calls the 6 Month Rule that dictates you wait at least 6 months before you decide what you really believe about a romantic partner. Her theory is that 6 months is about the longest the average person can remain on “party manners” and not show their real authentic self. She says if you see the same person at 6 months and 1 day that you saw on Day 1, your perception of this person is probably reliable. Of course, I didn’t believe her until I spent decades chasing assclowns myself.
points to mama!! and easier said then done! Good luck
What an excellent strategy. And it also presupposes that you are now dating from a Strong Inner Place.
If you’re weak and vacillating, or hooked on relationship crack, or a drama queen, or looking for a no-strings attached booty call, there’s no way you can do the 6 Month Rule.
So that’s a goal in itself – to get to the Strong Inner Place where you can imagine yourself being able to do this. And if you can’t imagine doing the 6 Month Rule calmly and successfully, then maybe you aren’t ready to go back in the water?
Sage advice. And, relevant to my current “situation”. Thanks!
After reading this article I’m sure everyone is now asking: what was the personality of the person who brought me here? And what was their character? The answers probably range from being attracted to a persona and then, I’m not sure about their character, I really didn’t know them until well after I was emotionally embroiled. I was disappointed by what emerged as their character.
I’d like to relate this to NML’s previous post. After you dissect his/her personality and then his/her character, take the focus off them and put it on you. Are you an attractive, funny, nice, interesting, wonderful personality? And then what is your character? Are you someone who sleeps with another woman’s husband? Are you someone who has sexual intimacy casually before being in a relationship? Have you had a child because of a lack of responsible decisions? Do you have an illness due to neglecting yourself? Are you addicted to something? Do you chase attention? Examine what is your character. That’s what I’m doing. I am seeing if my personality matches my character. Work in progress.
This is so true simple pleasures, it’s easy enough to pull someone else’s character and persona apart but what about ours?
This is something I have been thinking about a lot lately and it’s hard to be objective about yourself. Do my words and actions match, not always I have concluded. Time I got my journal out again and started looking at what I perceive to be my character and personality and see if I’m ‘as good as I think’. As always Nat’s posts are much food for thought as well as all comments from the posters on BR.
Another smokescreen besides personality is “persona” or social role, especially one’s work persona. If it involves a “do-gooder” profession, or one that has titles and honors, or an impressive uniform and position of authority… well, all this can too easily be mistaken for character. This is what makes the betrayal of trust by pedophile priests especially heinous.
I got tripped up by the ex because he was a leader in our organization, which is a particularly wonderful one, so I thought he was equally wonderful. Big mistake. He was in this job 25 years, which seemed to speak to his commitment and dedication, but again I was fooled. I recommend to anyone when evaluating a potential mate is to look beyond the external persona and find out WHY they do what they do – what is their motivation, why did they pick that career, where is the energy coming from, etc. This will give you more insight into their character than just knowing knowing they have an important job working with refugees or whatever. Intention matters a lot. And then the big test: are their actions matching their words?
Agree Wiser – the ex is a psychologist who sees himself as a humanitarian and aid worker as he works abroad. I worked with him and thought he was wonderful but after becoming involved with him found out the hard way about his true character. I am sure he did psychology because he did not get into medicine and to work himself out. He was a real boundary buster and his actions never matched his words.
Character can work against you too. I am very loyal to employers even if they aren’t to me. I have been burned many times this way and I feel taken advantage of often. So, my loyalty has not always served me well.
I also remember a BF who complained a lot, but always loved me, even though I wasn’t in love with him. He had character, yet very little charm and I could not fall in love with him. Then there was another bf who also complained and needed lots of space, but always came through if I needed help. Even today, I could count on him even though we haven’t spoken for years. He had personality as well, but he could be an AC as well, yet he’d be there for me. He might complain about it, but he’d help out.
whatever, I’ve had the same issue with employer’s in the past. I think there is such a thing as being too loyal. I used to be guilty of that. For me, like everything else these days, it has to go both ways, if not, I’m not in it for the long haul because I’m just asking to be exploited.
It’ll be great when you find the guy who has the character, personality and it reliable in one package!
Live Your Life LYRICS
T.I.
Ft: Rihanna
[T.I. Speaking]
Life is an interesting journey, you never know where it’ll take you,peaks and valleys, twists and turns, you can get the surprise of your life.
Sometimes on the way to where you going, you might think, this is the worst time in my life, but you know what, at the end of the road, through all the adversity, if you can get to where you wanted to be, you remember whatever don’t kill you, will make you stronger, and all the adversity was worth it.
On your way to the top, you’ll do anything, but how do you get your life back when you get there? Yeah, it’s my dilemma.
(Miyah hee, miya ha, miya hoo, miya ha ha
Miyah hee, miya ha, miya hoo, miya ha ha
Miya hee, miya ha, miya hoo, miya ha ha)
What you need to do is be thankful for the life you got, you know what I’m sayin? Stop lookin’ at what you ain’t got and start being thankful for what you do got. Let’s give it to ’em baby girl.
[Rihanna]
You’re gonna be, a shinin’ star in fancy clothes, and fancy cars
And then you’ll see, you’re gonna go far, cause everyone knows, just who ya are
So live your life (Hey! Ay ay ay)
You steady chasin’ that paper, just live your life (Oh! Ay ay ay)
Ain’t got no time for no haters, just live your life (Hey! Ay ay ay)
No tellin’ where it’ll take ya, just live your life (Oh! Ay ay ay)
‘Cause I’m a paper chaser, just livin’ my life
[T.I.]
Hey, never mind what haters say, ignore ’em ’til they fade away
Amazin’ they ungrateful after all the game I gave away
Safe to say I paved the way for you cats to get paid today
You’d still be wastin’ days away, now, had I never saved the day
Consider them my protege, homage I think they should pay
Instead of bein’ gracious, they violate in a major way
I never been a hater, still I love ’em in a crazy way
Some say they sold the yay’, you know they couldn’t get work on Labor Day
It ain’t that black and white, it has an area the shade of gray
I’m Westside anyway, even if I left today and stayed away
Some move away to make a way, not move away ’cause they afraid
I brought back to the hood, and all you ever did was take away
I pray for patience, but they make me wanna melt they face away
Like I once made ’em spray, now I could make ’em put the K’s away
Been thuggin’ all my life, can’t say I don’t deserve to take a break
You’d rather see me catch a case and watch my future fade away
[Chorus]
I’m the opposite of moderate, immaculately polished with
The spirit of a hustler, and the swagger of a college kid
Allergic to the counterfeit, impartial to the politics
Articulate, but still’ll grab a … by the collar quick
Whoever havin’ problems,with their record sales just holler TIP
If that don’t work and all else fails, then turn around and follow TIP
I got love for the game, but, ay, I’m not in love with all of it
Could do without the fame, and rappers nowadays are comedy
The hootin’ and the hollerin’,back and forth with the arguin’
Where you from, who you know, what you make and what kind of car you in
Seems as though you lost sight, of what’s important when depositin’
Them checks into your bank account, and you up out of poverty
Your values is a disarray, prioritizin’ horribly,
Unhappy with the riches, ‘cause you’re piss poor morally
Ignorin’ all prior advice and forewarnin’
And we mighty full of ourselves all of a sudden, aren’t we?
[Chorus]
Got everybody watchin’ what I do, come walk in my shoes
And see the way I’m livin’ if you really want to
Got my mind on my money, and I’m not goin’ away
So keep on gettin’ your paper, and keep on climbin’
Look in the mirror, and keep on shinin’ (Shinin’)
Until the game ends, ’til the clock stop
We gon’ post up on the top spot
So live you life
[Chorus]
Just living my life (ay), my life (oh), my life (ay), my life (oh)
Just living my life (ay), my life (oh), my life (ay), my life (oh)
Go life your life.
I’m done.
I got myself here, I’ll get myself out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koVHN6eO4Xg
A great topic.
I could ruminate on many examples from my past, but for the simplicity and because of scarcity of time, I will just pick on my most recent ex. Personality: intelligent, funny, sharp, sarcastic, entertaining, elegant, graceful, social, polite, charming, of course. Character: now I got myself thinking. After a year with him, did I learn about his character? Yes, I did. At the end of it. During a very difficult period he showed his character. Those people who know my story will know what I am talking about. He dodged the responsibility, ran for preserving his life and independence, disregarded how his actions might affect the person whom he had claimed to love and deem very important in his life. He promised he would stay with me and he cares for me and loves me and we will be together.
Yes, I think Etherelda pointed out that the true character comes out during hardship. I became to know his character during the life-turning event in my life. And in his, I am sure, it was one of the most stressful life events too.
To those who don’t know my story, his persona and words went opposite of his character and actions in a matter of the month or two after the stressful event.
The same is true for someone whose personality and character I can reconcile easily. I have an example of my ex-husband of 8-years. He said and did things and did what he said he would do. There was no gap between his personality and character. Now I am thinking about Nat’s article and what comes to my mind is that personality should be the character. You are who you are. Your actions show. Friendship, career, family, relationships. However you carry yourself with people it will show in your actions and deed. That’s the real stuff. And good point, someone said, check out yourself. Do you match your persona and character? Authenticity?
On a different but slightly related topic. In my 9-year single life after my divorce, I met this one guy and we had 2 or 3 dates and had sex, but we maintained friendship nevertheless although things didn’t work out between us. We were amicable for good 3-4 years. Just today after not seeing or hearing from him for couple years, I found out that he got married and moved to Europe with his American girlfriend ( he is American). He is 33. Handsome, very fun, intelligent, charming, down to earth, friendly. When I went out with him couple times and he didn’t pursue after. I left him alone but we continued chatting friendly. I thought to myself back then and somehow I knew, it didn’t mean he is not unavailable, it just meant he didn’t seem the right match with me. And it was fine. He dated a lots of girls, I know that. Sometimes I thought he is this guy in his early 30s who will extend into his late 30s and will never settle down. Here is the story I heard today from a friend of his. She said that yes, he dated a lot, but then, he met this girl and was INSEPARABLE from her. From day one. After few months he proposed and they are married now. And he had had lots of girlfriends and did have experience living with 2 or 3 of them. So not completely uncommitted. He tried.
This story made me think . . . and it hurt me too, ladies, believe me… What if these EUMs , especially those in their late 20s to late 30s (men mature later), just haven’t found that woman they want in us, and that’s why they moved on so quickly and married someone else now. It’s PAINFUL to admit, but if they were not a complete assclown, but just distant and did use us for months or years , true. And then we find the news they are married after a few months or weeks of dating… while we had kept waiting they would choose us. We blamed them for being EU and commitment-phobe, but look there? He is MARRIED NOW! What do you think?
I don’t know. This story today was thought provoking (knowing how many girls that guy had) made me think. Perhaps I was just not the one for my ex EUM (the recent one – not the one who got married and moved to Europe). Made me feel sad. Ego speaking. But why sad? He was not into me, I was not the one.
Relating to the topic of the article, I hear stories, where the man would be showing a different character and treat another (the One) differently. It will be the One he marries/commits to. Again, I hear stories like that and it makes me think… Yes, my ex strung me along (my fault letting him) until someone better (for him) turned up. Yes it was a usery. However, he might and will show his caring and loving and intimacy sharing character with the One he chooses for him.
Have you thought about it? I know it hurts like hell. But sometimes I think it is the truth. Perhaps it will make it easier to let go. I was not the one.
Any arguments and objections are welcome. Again, this is not about truly assclown usery/abuse AC behavior. But about those subtle “good guys’ EUs who seem to treat you fine, but are never there completely, always one foot out, trying some other place , and then destroy you in the end (your fault as well for getting into that in the first place).
What do you think? Can their persona match the character with the right person for them? And mismatch for you? Have you ever thought about that possibility?
Couple corrections:
It was Noquay who pointed out that: “I’ve found that an individuals true character comes out during hard times, having to emotionally be present….”
Ethelreda has other great points I agree with (sorry for misspelling your name!).
Sofia, first, Natalie has posts on exactly this [why her/him, why not me] – this might help you with your feelings. Second, I agree that sometimes people dont want to be with you and not just that they are EU. Thats fine, not everyone will like you, just as you dont like everyone – you are putting too much focus on him. Did you really want to be with him? My guess is that usually a relationship only feels right when both people are in it – thats our problem, the thing that brings us to BR, that we tend to stay in relationships that we dont really want, and then to feel bad when they end. But if we truly looked within, we’d realize we didn’t want them that much either, we just never really look within because we are too focused on being liked and being picked to really look at whether we actually like the other person. I think that both us and them fear intimacy but in different ways – they also fear responsibility, while we want to be in a relationship that feels real but actually isn’t. We are willing to take everyday responsibility (being nice, calling, etc) but not real responsibility (truly caring for yourself and others in which case you wouldn’t stay with an EU or AC).
Third, if I dont like someone, if they’re not the one for me, or dont have the potential to be the one, I DONT pursue them, I dont string them along, I dont get into conversations about how ‘i’m not ready, dont know what i want, in a bad place’ while continuing to mess them around. If I have a friend that I think is interested in me, I make it clear through my boundaries that nothing will happen, if they make a pass I tell them clearly [I dont say ‘i’m not in a bad place’, I say ‘we’re not compatible, its not going to happen, i’m not interested’ and then I show them through my actions that we are still only just friends. I dont use them or their interest in me].
I dont know about the guy you’re talking about that married someone else. He might have been EU until he met the one – however, if in his journey to the ‘one’ [which i dont even think exists] he messed people up, then its on him, its not about you, and yes he’s not just EU waiting to be awakened by a princess’ kiss but is also AC. Its ok to not fall in love with every person in your path (of course!), its not ok to treat people badly in your journey toward the one.
Exactly! If you aren’t attracted to someone or they’re not attracted to you, why stick around? The dude I met this summer wasn’t interested though was more than happy for me to crew him during his race, was more than willing to have meals, coffee with me while we were training. Finally cut cut contact when he went back to where he came from. Even when someone’s absence will hurt, ya gotta bail if they don’t want you. Help out a neighbor on occasion who, once again who, once again, expressed interest. Nice person but our lives and values are totally incompatible. Once again I have enforced boundaries rather than even take a chance at giving him the wrong impression. Haven’t heard from Trauma man since we’d agreed to split and that’s how it oughta be. Keeping in touch with someone with whom things didn’t work is just wasting ones time, taking time away from finding someone that does work for you.
Right on Suki! Good men are not going to use you while they are looking for the “one.” This in my view is the lowest form of AC. They don’t really feel enough for you and they know it, but they have no problem stringing you along and taking all the goodies you offer because… why I don’t really know. They can’t stand to be alone? Being a man means they have to be in a relationship with somebody, anybody? They have to prove to themselves they are desirable because perhaps their ex dumped them? This is their antidote to low self-esteem? They shrug and say everybody does it? Too lazy or selfish to exhibit real character and LEAVE YOU ALONE?
I have a very low opinion of people who use sex as a dating technique – by that I mean as a way to figure out if they are really interested in you, or as a way to find out which of multiple dating partners they really like. This is a terrible way to treat others. People are not commodities to be used and discarded. This is what my ex did to me. He had only superficial interest in me, had a mild curiosity about being with me sexually, found out, and dumped me as soon as someone else more appealing came along. I fully take responsibility for my own actions which were to jump in bed far too early and without a realistic sense of what that meant to him. I assumed we were on the same page. Big mistake. Unlike him, my feelings were real and they were honest and they were strong. I didn’t need to have sex with him to figure out my feelings – I was very clear about them beforehand.
Again, another reason to let people unfold. For a long time. Ladies, this is the dark side of sexual freedom. You want to have sex with someone after 2 or 3 dates? Even if you think it’s only fun and casual? Just be aware that you are risking more emotional bonding than you bargained for and that you might end up feeling used, not valued, getting your heart broken, not acting in your own best interests, in a turmoil of anger and bitterness – in short, all the feelings that I had to suffer when I was tossed out like a pot of dirty dishwater.
Wiser,
I agree with you.
I started out with sex too soon too and fell “in love” too soon. I am going to call it “falling in sex” now. New term.
Next time when I date I will wait for not 2-3 dates but much longer. 10 + times more than before. You have to find out who the person is. Who they are. Sex and especially of course, great sex and hormones cloud our thinking. Biology and chemistry take over. Physical dominates and we can’t reason anymore even when clearly sexual is the only perhaps or the strongest bond.
Lesson learned.
And I bring up in my other posts about stringing along instead of letting the person go. You are saying the same. Agreed. Wrong.
I think he is both EU right now, or with me, and AC also right now, or at least with me. Whether he is fundamentally an AC or EU I can’t say, and it doesnt matter. He might be wonderful to someone else and yes that will hurt, but it doesnt change that he has been crap to me (and that its not about me, I dont cause bad behavior in others though I might put up with it). I also agree with the comment that perhaps EU just means ‘not that into you’ but in this case I think its ‘not that into you’ + ‘having a bad year, not over the ex’ + ‘hooking something’. I think we have hooked each other in a bad way, triggering something in the other – in my case I think my fear of abandonment and rejection, and my passivity in the face of bad behavior. I’m used to liking people that treat me badly so it feels okay to be around him. I’m used to people blowing hot and cold, getting super intimate and then treating me badly. I experienced a lot of this growing up in family and friends, and then in boyfriends.
For him – its possible he was attracted to me, didn’t get whatever he wanted from me, I wasn’t that ‘perfect’, I called him out on his bad treatment of me, and he’s having a hard year (or so he thinks) and likes the comfort he gets from our friendship, since he doesnt have to explain to me anymore his issues. We were attracted to each other from the start, and at various points, I didn’t make that up. But then we had sex and he stopped calling me (we are still in the same social circle). Before that he had already treated me like a yo-yo, constantly pursuing me, hitting on me, keeping the fake dating alive, and then when things got even close to real (making out, dating, sex, expectations) pulling back and creating drama.
I think this is AC behavior – he knew I was interested, I didn’t pursue him and kept my distance, and he kept pursuing while telling me he didn’t want a relationship and then dumped me over and over again without there ever being a relationship and then right after sex which is AC…, but I am also wondering why I give him the time of day in my head and not just say eff it and move on.
This is my struggle – I dont call him, I will not call him, and I will not engage one-on-one with him. I am able to be friendly with him in a group, this group is important to me for now… So I am NC other than the group, but its hard – so I heart all the ladies that are struggling with NC.
I dont miss him, I dont want him (though I want someone and he’s all I had recently in the man department), so I have it easier at NC than others might find themselves e,g, those who had more real relationships than I had with him. The struggle is thinking of him as a monster or not, taking responsibility and how much, who to blame, etc. The real answer is just to accept whatever this is, not look to blame others.
I feel I am avoiding processing the sadness I feel at having met someone I liked and could enjoy the company of who treated me quite so shabbily perhaps because of his own pain and inadequacies and i put up with it due to my own pain and inadequacies. I have felt sad for this for months, as he has constantly hit on me and pursued so he hasn’t let me process because he’s always back and then gone. So my only suggestion to everyone in NC is to distract yourself, absorb in work and friends, get a cocktail (i just did!), therapy if you must, AND allow yourself to sit with your feelings and feel what you feel which is really sadness at being hurt or left or treated less than you are. Breaking NC is because you are hurting and in pain, and you want someone to end the pain and you assume he will or can because he caused it – if we could just learn to breathe through it, we’d get through the day, one day at a time.
Suki, I think I got confused everyone with mixing that guy I had couple dates with and my most recent ex I mention and who brought me here.
The guy with whom I had couple dates had the experience of living with a woman at least couple times and for 1-3 years. So he could commit and was not EU. I might have expressed myself not clearly enough in that post. I rather meant that guys like he, won’t settle down until they meet their One, while some women might interpret that he is EU or commitment phobiac because he didn’t commit to them. I don’t and didn’t think that guy was EU or AC. We remained friends for few years after those couple dates. We just both understood something was off. And it was fine. We had been friends before going out. So I knew his personality and I felt that it was not that he could not commit, it was just that he didn’t meet the right person yet. Although I did think he would take his time to date around a lot. Well, he didn’t. Got married at 32 at about “right” age I guess for guys.
The most recent ex who brought me here: I started doubting whether he is EU. Because this week I hear too many stories where guys they commit to when the woman feels right to them even before they had been dating and dating and dating and perhaps leading on,string along and other borderline AC behavior. Once they meet a woman who feels right to them, they decide to settle down. That simple and that hard. So I have started thinking this week and I might have expressed my thoughts not clearly, which confused everyone, I apologize, that a lot of times, when there is no outrageous straight in your face ACish behavior, guys are guys. They will use you for benefits and sex, calling it “dating and learning about you before I decide,” while waiting for someone better to come along. That’s just what guys do.
What important is that finally I learned after months of healing and being here on BR that it’s up to us to allow what they do. We are the ones who decide what we accept or not. Listen to you, your values, what you want, your gut. Look at his actions, match with the words, look at him and you objectively. Try for 3-6 months and see. If feels wrong, lukewarm or whatever other wrong feeling, just leave. Clarify what’s going, try just once to see “where we are,” but then no more trying. Lesson learned.
A lot of doubts this week I am having with EU and AC labels for the most recent ex and some other people. Not excusing them. Just realizing everyone has a free will to do as they please. It doesn’t mean all is allowed. It means we are not to judge them. We are to focus on us and our lives. If they feel wrong they are not for us. I am not trying to simplify everything. It just hit me today. The better we know who WE ARE, the better we can build our personal relationships with us and others.
“… that a lot of times, when there is no outrageous straight in your face ACish behavior, guys are guys. They will use you for benefits and sex, calling it “dating and learning about you before I decide,” while waiting for someone better to come along. That’s just what guys do.”
Sofia, In reference to what you say above, I think this is what guys who are are a*holes do, not “..just what guys do”. Women who do this are also behaving in very poor and a*holish fashion.
But that being said, Sofia you have lost your focus and are putting energy back again into hypotheticals…asking yourself – was it me or him? – what if he has now met someone he loves/treats with respect/is not ambiguous with and so forth. I don’t think there is much use in using EU and AC labels if the motive for doing so comes from a belief that your pain and confusion will somehow definitively be resolved once you have labelled him; As priceless as Natalie’s work is, as with any other form of reliance on outside validation, validation via an EU/AC analysis through BR will not fix the pain.
‘What ifs’ will change nothing for you, and are unknowable and as you know, a waste of your energy. My struggle was always with my dubious sense of self worth and bringing the focus back to where it belongs – on ourselves – is a starting point for finding our way back to where the real work needs to be done. This is written with virtual compassion and caring intentions – from your posts over the last year I really think that your real struggle is with your sense of self esteem and self worth. I think all the what if speculating is an expression of you beating yourself up because you firstly believe deep down that you were “not good enough” and if you had been the ex would not have left you and secondly you imagine that if you had been “good enough” you would have seen the red flags and bailed early.
Keep working on you Sofia, you aren’t responsible for his actions and treatment of you. If you can tap into some genuine empathy and compassion for yourself, believe me you will know it and be able to ‘forgive’ yourself – although once you access compassion for yourself you will feel immediately that it is no big hurdle and won’t be so driven to treat yourself harshly.
Plus: As Rosie (and Elgie R?) have pointed out – you may also come to really like (and I mean have a true and healthy appreciation of) your positive qualities and realise that they are already in you/part of you and were not only there because the ex/someone else evoked them. And just because that person has gone he hasn’t taken your interesting, unique qualities with him.
lizzp,
Thank you for your post.
I must have been having difficulties expressing myself clearly this week and saying exactly what I mean. I would like to clarify that labeling him (EU or AC or “not into me”) and how is with other women doesn’t matter to me. Something happened this and past week. Perhaps I had yet another milestone in my healing. Neither it matters understanding why he is gone. I don’t think of “ifs” anymore. I had been for months and months though. And yes, it was because of the low self-esteem and low self-worth. I have learned and continue learning. When I have been expressing in my posts this week that my ex or the guy I had couple dates with are different with other women and can commit, I didn’t mean to sound like “why not me?” I rather state it as a fact that with someone else they will commit. I have let that part go about why. I do not care anymore because my focus is on me finally. I am getting to know myself and have noticed that I started liking my positive qualities and forgiving the negative ones. Good point, lizzp, I am starting liking myself and the entire process of “dating yourself” so to speak and learning about yourself brings all the focus to oneself. It is a great experience. You pretty much summarized everything I have been very recently started feeling and doing. Thank you for your caring and thoughtful response. 🙂
Sofia, the last comment was just sort of general, not in response to you alone, sorry didn’t mean to make you have to clarify again!
… perhaps your comment triggered something in all of us, the fear we all have that we did something wrong to bring these people in our lives. Sometimes you like someone that unfolds as an AC and disengaging from them is really hard. And I think when we think about how they treat other women that come later we should remember – first, when you met them they were single, which means they’ve been dumped plenty of times already or have failed to make relationships work. Second, look to the divorce rate – the odds of them being an AC to the next person are high, or of them meeting an AC who will beat them at their own game are also high. The idea that everyone who leaves us goes on to joy while we suffer is wrong. I have achieved a lot in my career after the ex (not the current AC), my female friendships have become very strong, my family life has become stable, I have a life other than romance and I have achieved in that life. A mutual friend was upset that I wasn’t married after the ex was married. ‘He’s moved on’ she said to me. I was really upset with her because i felt she was not on my side and was pressuring me to settle [and I wasn’t even dating then]. So I said ‘yes but has he moved on from being an a–hole’. Thats the real question. And I hope he has – he’s married now, he has kids, I got out when he was a total AC, and I was his fall back girl, the one he used all his b.s. on and he will hopefully treat women better in the future and I will treat myself and others better too. I feel bad it had to happen to me, but at the same time I dont wish it on his current family. So perhaps its good they treat others better after us – its good that there is some more good in the world. The point is how do we minimize being the fall back to these people? Its not who comes after us, its what we go through and how do we fix that?
Suki,
I like what you say:
“So perhaps its good they treat others better after us – its good that there is some more good in the world.”
That’s what I think too. If he is able to love someone and build a family I am happy for him. It is a great joy to share your love with someone and care about someone.
We did not do anything wrong to bring these people into our lives. Our wrong was to not pay attention to our own needs and keep concentrating on them.
Your question:
“The point is how do we minimize being the fall back to these people?”
Don’t think about being the “fallback”. Think about it as learning experience. We didn’t know ourselves well and let it happen. It’s okay.
We make mistakes, they make mistakes. Everyone does. Healing comes from forgiving them and ourselves.
Sofia – hey! long time no chat….after reading this I’ve been thinking about my ex’s personality and character and it kinda goes like yours:
Personality: charming, funny, intelligent, logical, sharp, entertaining, oh and he’s great in bed and one thing he tries to do is get you in bed quickly so once that happens….you are immediately blinded.
Character: does good dad count? If I look at his character I don’t even know if he even has any good character qualities. He has no morals. He can be nice to people, but its mostly out of obligation or to look good. He has no filter so doesn’t think about what he says and hurts people with his words alot. I did see good in him, but he always lets the bad shine.
Lynn,
Good dad quality counts. For his child and their relationship.
I tend to think now that really if after about 6 months (someone here mentioned 6 months frame, I agree) the relationship becomes lukewarm and is not progressing just leave it. 6 months should be enough for both to figure out to pursue commitment or not.
I incline to think more and more now it’s not about EU or commitment phobia. It’s just that some people don’t work out together. But no one should string the other along. That’s where it goes wrong and painful for at least one party.
I have heard few stories more this week where the perpetually dating people get married.
It does happen.
When we meet the right person. If we do.
Sofia- If I remember, your recent ex told you in the beginning that his relationships don’t go past the 6 – month mark. Yours was the longest relationship he had and that was because you were stubborn and wanted it to happen. Sofia, this isn’t a case of it “just not working out”. This so-called man had an expiration date already set. I agree with Allison and others about the over usage of terms, such as “EU”, “narcissist”, and “sociopath”. However, to minimize someone’s abusive behavior isn’t forgiveness but denial. Please, Sofia, stay in reality. Reality is the path to forgiveness and healing The guy may not be a narcissist or sociopath but if he already had an expiration date set…clearly he is EU.
Sofia- (just thought of thus after I posted)- It seems you’re getting caught up in the emotions a man may or may not have for a particular woman and you have the words that indicate you understand the difference between personality and character but there’s still something missing in what you’re saying, though I can’t quite articulate what (hence, more than one post). I guess it’s like what Suki said–thinking that the great guy emerges when he meets “the one” (agree with Suki that “the one” is a myth). If he mistreat women on his way to his “one”, he will mistreat his “one” as well (in a different way?) Character is an internal thing so it’s present no matter where we are or who we’re with. Elgie R. Once commented that she accredited her sharp wit and other positive qualities she has to the “mental chemistry” she shared with the MMAC. She now knows her sharp wit is inside her and, thus, is present regardless. Emotional and character maturation is a process; it isn’t going to happen overnight through meeting who we think of as “the one”.
With all that being said, someone we have feelings for does have influence over us. Yet, a committed relationship can only happen when a person is ready (regardless of how great the other person is, as your divorce illustrates). However, our choices shape who we are/become. Thus, we may be ready emotionally while remaining incapable due to ingrained habits that developed from our poor dating/relationship choices.
Anyway, I’m still unsure if I’m putting my finger on what’s missing here but I think all my rambling is on the right track. 🙂
Rosie,
True and of course back then I didn’t listen to his “6 month” average relationship length history.
He might have been an EU or AC or the combination. True, he had an expiration date for me. After 6 months it’s about the time to start developing intimacy beyond the fun dating part and he couldn’t or didn’t want to do it with me. Why and who he is I will never know. I will never know all the answers. What I do know is that I didn’t love myself and didn’t’ know myself. That’s all that matters now as I am learning about me and focusing on my life. I don’t think I am in a denial. I just don’t want to think anymore why things turned out the way they did – meaning I resolve to stop thinking about HIS contribution and the whys about him. I will never know things about him and it doesn’t matter. What matters is that I know myself now and the mistakes I made. Forgiveness is healing. It takes time but it does happen for most people, I hope.
I’m not really hearing where this guy is EUM. You had a few dates (hardly a relationship even if one sexual experience was involved) and then were amicable for a few years, until he found “the one” and married her. I’m not hearing that you were in a relationship and he blew hot/cold, pursed you and then did a turnaround, gave mixed signals, cheated, lied, etc. It just sounds like a guy in his 20s who dated a bunch of women (even making a stab at living with a couple) and then around 30 found the one and got married. Maybe your timeline where you live is different, but that’s actually an EARLY timeline for men where I live. They don’t even think of settling down until they’re 40, most of them. So yeah, I think guys might “feel” a bit EUM simply because they didn’t choose you, but it’s really because you weren’t a good match. But you should know this fairly early on. I doubt guys who are capable of an emotional connection want to string someone along for years, and it doesn’t sound like he did this to you. That said, I don’t believe just because a guy is married means he’s not EUM. Plenty of EUMs get married, and often they then just escalate their behavior. Hope this makes sense, maybe I’m missing something. 🙂
Diane,
When I said EUM I didn’t mean about that guy with whom I had couple dates. I was referring to my recent ex EUM, who strung me along for several months after he had decided I was not the one(which I realized only after the breakup that he had known for several months after the hot phase wore out).
The guy who is married and in Europe now was just dating around and not ready to settle down.
My ex EUM will do the same thing. Date, string along for a bit some women and then will find the One for him.
Hence my thoughts about who is really EU. Those who never commit ever to anyone perhaps. Those permanent bachelors at 50.
As others pointed out, stringing alone while looking for a better woman to come along is AC behavior. Not EU. My recent ex even joked once that “better than nothing,” when I told him how great we are together. I had thought it was sarcasm. It was not. He enjoyed the benefits and after six months blew cold but didn’t leave the relationship. He did when I pushed for certainty few months later. During the breakup he told me he had on and off decisions about us. He was sure then he was not sure, and several times like that. He couldn’t make up his mind. He did when I pushed for commitment. He said I was not the one and now he knows. I guess I did have some boundaries even back then if that setup of permanent albeit exclusive (hmm… actually not sure about that even) dating was not working for me.
He definitely sounds emotionally unavailable. Could he just be waiting for “the one”? Who knows and who cares. You put in enough time/effort. At some point, you’ve got to throw in the towel. People like that, it really IS their issue, not yours. I think most of us would be incapable of being with someone for years and still not have any clue how we felt about them. Why would you even bother with that? But emotionally unavailable people don’t feel they’re wasting their time — because they’re not. They’re wasting yours. The other guy just sounded like a guy who was dating around until he met someone and he did, and he committed.
Diane, yes, the other guy had lived the girls he dated. I remember he lived in with 2-3 girls in the last 8 years years. So he was capable to commit although it didn’t last. He was not afraid of sharing his space and life.
My recent ex was terrified at the idea of sharing his space with someone. Yes, I agree for people like him it’s normal to date many many women before they settle if they do and who cares anyway.
I feel I am so past and want to concentrate on me only. I think I have finally drained my reserve of thinking and worrying about him. I am focused on changing my career and that’s where my thoughts and energy should go. The ex is firmly in the past. I do hope this solid phase will last. People say that sad moments will come and go especially when you feel lonely. Oh well. I am ready to cope with that. Analyzing him – no more.
Great post!! I have been reading this blog and all your books for a couple months now. I found it serendipitous that this post coincides with a hip hop track I just recorded (if anyone wants solidarity through some music!) Thank you so much for all you do with this work! It has literally saved the future of my love life… pretty sure. Music is a great outlet. Hope others can relate:
Don’t assume because an EUM or AC gets married that it means they changed. Many continue on cheating on their wives or creating distance in other painful ways. And even if it was more of just being ready and meeting the one and you weren’t the “chosen” one who cares. You have to think of it as their loss and that the way they treated you they didn’t deserve you anyhow. Once you think of it that way, the why me doesn’t matter.
Another great comment from Natalie that reflects something that remains challenging for me personally, even the notion of ‘character’ is difficult to explain. I see it, deeply inspired by NML as treating other people kindness and respect and something that can be seen through your actions, rather than words.
Soon after I started to feel like enthralled/obsessed by my ex, I noticed the behaviour of other men with their wives or girlfriends: how one wouldn’t agree to doing something with me, a friend, before he checked in on his wife (as she would have to look after the kids) or how another wouldn’t imagine spending time at his girlfriend’s house when she was away as he wanted to show that he respected her space.
Both of these examples to me show good ‘character’ – but it is something, as I said earlier, that I’m training myself to see and value.
My ex helped me in ways that made me love him (even more), most probably because I had been doing it alone in tough circumstances for so long. I remember once telling him how much I loved him when he came with me to meet my son one very early morning. At the time, I felt touched by his kindness. Now, this was kind of him and I will always be grateful for this, but does it show character (especially since it was a kind of I help you, you help me in his mind a lot of the time)?
And a lot of the times he helped me with my son it was linked in his mind with me giving him a free pass (to go out that night, or even in the most extreme situations, he would be doing stuff at night and then come back to us in the morning and get a lot of praise from me for helping me with my son when I had to go to work).
Now, I’m in a very different place now; so can appreciate all of this and even appreciate my gratitude – and have no judgment, but it shows a risk of how we focus on certain kinds of actions that reflect our needs, rather than show a man’s character, separate to our perspective.
Simply, my friends earlier were not acting like this to ‘help’ their wives and be thanked for being considerate, it was natural to them: it was what they would do to anyone.
Finally, the lure of the personality stuff that Nat writes about. The best solution is for us to identify what hooks us in – confidence, charm etc – and then make those qualities are own. Usually the reason why they are so attractive and addictive is that we feel we don’t possess them ourselves.
Thinking like this has really helped me move on as I’ve done my best to take on the qualities of the ex that impressed me so much, and made me so envious, and re-ignite parts of me that were squashed for so long.
You could
Currently I am in search for the tunnel. When I find the dang tunnel I will start to look for the light.
I most recently broke-up with a guy I dated for 9 months. I am very well aware that I cannot reveal what happened with all the details during that period here but I am sure even with little I share, at least reading through your stories you will understand, relate and get my point. Let me first say out loud that I hate online dating. It is a true mindfuck!! Everyone is exactly how they want to be or want to be perceived yet not themselves at all. Yep, even knowing that I still did online dating because I couldn’t find any other place to meet men. I work full time, I have a daughter, I don’t see any potential that I can find at a bar. Do you? I wanted to have my own success story. I met him exactly at that time when I got mad with the stupid online dating experiences that I could damn write a book stage. He was right there with me. First two months was like a fairy tale. I do remember times asking myself and him of course if he was real. As he got into changing his job, and fighting for the custody of his kids, I was there at the court, fighting with him, interviewing with the evaluator lady, taking time off from my work, supporting him, loving him and his kids, bending backwards, cooking, talking and talking and talking. The things we talked and texted about might very well fill a thick history book. You are not this, not that, you said this, and didn’t do that started shortly after he got the custody of his kids, almost at the 4 months mark. Then things started deteriorating shortly after that. Couple of arguments, talks, talks, more arguments, justifications, promises, never kept promises, apologies etc… We had our biggest fight at the end of 5th month mark. It was something so stupid I don’t honestly even remember what even it was. He was cruel, mad, ugly, abusive, manipulative, harsh and many other things. We got back together after many many many talks and cries again. All my friends told me not to but I honestly wanted to believe he was who he presented to be. I honestly believed he loved me as much as he said he loved me and he was under a lot of stress. I believed we are meant to be because of how he made me feel when everything was great and in harmony. Denial, denial!! We were so much a like in so many ways. Who I was kidding? Myself..I guess I also wanted to give him the things that I fortunately had as a child and he never had. I wanted to keep my promise of how I am going to do anything and everything possible in my power to make him happy. I have given 100%. When I look back there is not even one thing I could say if I did differently this whole story would have been better and/or different.
As you guessed the cries, and promises that are given after the first big hurtle only carried us for a month. He started creating more drama, making me feel bad about who I am, what I am, almost every two days he brought up another subject to my attention that he felt I needed to be educated about. I, of course resisted, talked to him, explained how I felt, I thought he understood. A month ago he came up with some other lame stupid thing to blame me. That was the last drop for me. I broke up with him right after he got into his range. Name calling, blaming, telling me how fake I am, comparing me with others he dated, and some more ugly stuff. He insisted on talking so we talked, and I made it clear that I am not coming back, that I am done. He himself admitted that it is his loss, that he used me, the one he loved the most as a punch-bag instead of a sound board, that he knew I was so stressed he didn’t wanted to be a burden for me, that he loved me so much that he will even bring the moon to me if he could. Bla bla bla.. You have to understand that I loved this man and I thought he was the one for me. When he understood that I am not going back the real rage then began. He created fake social media accounts, blogs, Yelp review in my name, with my name, using my information to trash my reputation. He shared his view of me, including stuff and views in sexual context, things that only you share with someone you are intimate with and wrote horrible horrible things about me, what kind of mother I was etc etc. 45 lovely items… I leave it to your imagination.
Finally, out of this roller coaster, still shaky by the legs, I am trying to stay strong. Trying to absorb, understand and make meaning of how sick this person is. How unfortunate this whole story is. I am trying to learn the lesson, and things about myself. Reading your stories to relate. I also find myself missing the view at the top of the roller coaster sometimes. At those times I am trying to be as logical as possible. And life goes on. I am strong yet very very hurt with the actions of someone whom I loved thought who also loved me. I don’t take any of the things he said personal, as I know he is very very sick. So I am searching first for the tunnel. When I find the dang tunnel I will start to look for the light.
Color,
That is horrible!
I’m curious, how did you find out about all the nasty things he was putting online? Also, have you considered legal action?
Colour Purple, He’s a bully and a bastard. You got out relatively quickly and stuck to your guns. Your strength probably triggered his true character – controlling, vindictive, clearly narcissistic and likely psychopathic. All based on his actions. One thing’s for sure this is his way of trying to restore a sense of control – through a campaign of cyber attack. Like all bullying controllers he’s also a coward. If you feel duped, attacked, afraid and angry that is all completely normal. By staying well clear of him and having absolute NC you respect your natural and normal feelings and protect and nurture yourself. Whilst of course this is an opportunity to learn, it would be really detrimental if in that process you go down a path of self blame. You got out on the basis of red flags before he’d even unfolded this far. That is so creditable! I hope you have the support you need for what you are going through right now so you can stay strong and safe.
Colorofpurple, one thing stuck out for me – in the first few months of a 9 month relationship, you had already taken time off from work to go to court for this guy? That sounds like not enough boundaries between the two of you. I’m not sure whether dating in the early months is the space where you help others with their legal problems. And all that thick history book talk, that isn’t much help either. Sounds like you were both too involved in what was happening, and liked the intensity of the drama. And it sounds like he is going through far too much in his life, to really be present for others. You dont need to prop up someone so much, someone you just met.
And you have a child too – so while you are paying all this attention to him, being in love with him and his kids within 3-4 months of meeting him, your work and your life are not getting enough attention. You might think this was all out of love – but how does one love someone that within 4 months was already pulling back? how do even the words about love get exchanged within 4 months?
It seems like you have come up with a definition of love that leaves you open to being taken advantage of, and to drama, while you are telling yourself that you are very giving etc.
I dont doubt you treated him well, helped him, and were there for him etc. I wonder though whether you gave too much to someone before they showed their real colors. At every stage of a relationship there is a degree of love and compassion that is appropriate – yours seems too much too soon. This doesnt negate that he is a total AC and very unstable – but it helps perhaps consider why and how you got so involved with him that you left yourself open to his total mind effery.
ColorPurple, I know the hunger of wanting to be “IN” a relationship. Feeling a part of something solid. I think you try to satisfy that hunger by being what you feel is “supportive of your man”. Thing is though, that kind of steady support is something that can only be authentic after long periods of time and trust has existed between two people, a steady reciprocity that ONLY time can bring.
I’m trying to say – you CAN’T manufacturer it. That kind of support happens after many deposits of trust have been put in the “trust bank” of both people. You rushing in to “be there” for his court dates was all about you supporting your man. You couldn’t wait to play that role. But that support was built on a weak foundation – and no surprise – it crumbled. It was play-acting. I’m sure you sincerely wanted to help, but you can’t be the INSTANT totally awesome girlfriend, because that is inviting others to take advantage of you.
We gotta stop looking for instant love. Accept that good things take time to build, and they last much longer when each piece is solidly placed. And you get to RECEIVE as well as give.
Thanks, Elgie R. I will copy and save this one. Great words of wisdom!
Elgie R.
Thank you. You make a lot of sense, and of course you are right. No good foundation no future for the relationship.
I am not sure if I would be able to handle it any differently though. Meaning if the same circumstances are presented in the future. So I am asking for advice.
Please imagine, I am dating this men only for 3 months, he is going to court for the battle of the custody of his kids and he says he needs me. What do I do? What do I do to be there for him without taking time off from work and be there physically to support him. How do I say I don’t like to be interviewed when I am asked to be evaluator by the evaluator lady? How do I justify myself that I didn’t do anything or everything in my power for the kids to be in a safer environment. I think it is important to understand the circumstances. Yes, I was there to support him but my main drive was the kids, and them to be in a safer environment as soon as possible. At the time I thought that safer environment was their dad’s house. I am a mom. Even if I didn’t had any connection with these kids yet I did, if I knew that I could do anything to make them safer, I still would have done that. I also knew, with him getting the custody of the kids all the dynamic of the relationship would have changed, and of course it did, drastically. We didn’t have as much time to ourselves as we used to do. All that trumped with the notion of the safety of the kids. The place I am put and the role I have forced to take was not fair but I didn’t have any option whatsoever. I am judged/critized by him many times when I said “I am not sure if I am ready to take the responsibility of two kids. Please don’t take me wrong, I am saying this because I am not taking it lightly. I, of course will do anything, but I am not sure I am ready”. Thank you!
Purple, If I can put in my two cents worth in here regarding your reply to Elgie: What do you do after three months of dating when he says he needs you in court with him?’ You say,’I’m sorry, I am enjoying getting to know you, however really this is something that is your business, if you’ve had a hard day and you want to talk about it that’s fine….’ or something like that. At the end of the day the court decides on the children. As for being an “evaluator”. Not quite sure I get what that means but surely if it is him who needs ‘evaluation’ as to his ability to to parent his kids, someone else who has known him longer and therefore may know more about his ‘character’ would be the better choice? Or if it is that you ‘evluate’ how he is with his kids when he has access? You say ‘no, I am not comfortable in that role, I do not know this man well yet and I would question my own objectivity, please find someone else’.
The reason you went in to bat for him, in the end still does boil down to you, not the kids in my view. Because I think you recognised and feared that saying ‘no’ would result in a negative reaction of some sort from him – ie dump you,get angry, try to put the guilts on you – all of which you might take on board and feel not good enough. Suki is right in that this is an issue of boundaries in that sense. But it’s hard to have clear boundaries when we are patterned on people pleasing instead of treating ourselves with care and respect.
“The place I am put and the role I have forced to take was not fair but I didn’t have any option whatsoever. I am judged/critized by him many times when I said “I am not sure if I am ready to take the responsibility of two kids. Please don’t take me wrong, I am saying this because I am not taking it lightly. I, of course will do anything, but I am not sure I am ready”.”
See Purple? You actually say it here yourself. You were not ‘forced’ to take on that role but because of your need to please it feels like you ‘didn’t have any option’. His judgements and criticism trigger your need to please, otherwise you will feel not good enough, as a girlfriend and person. But you have the option now to learn and do some work to try and avoid a similar dynamic in the future. Because while it may or may not be a matter of kids and custody next time, the dynamic will manifest under another form when your need to please meets another’s need to dominate and control.
lizzp,
I was nodding my head reading your post. Sadly to admit I would have done the same thing as ColorofPurple did. The nature of helping, giving, pleasing… Even if it’s been only 3 months. I don’t know about evaluating his behavior. I don’t think the court would allow a witness who has not known the person for a long enough period of time, but I am not sure what the laws are. However, I would have been by his side and help out as much as I could during the court time. Raises a good point about boundaries. I would have thrown myself into helping the guy, but of course there would have been restrictions on how much I would legally involve myself. Custody of kids is a serious matter. One needs to know the person for quite some time before getting involved in such decision. I guess, to correct myself, I would have been there emotionally supporting him. But involving yourself legally . . . I don’t know. Good point to think about. Where is the boundary between kindness and wanting to help someone and overstepping your limitations. Something to ponder upon. Interesting discussion.
Hi Sofia, – it’s like this I think – patterned ‘people pleasing’is not the same thing as being a kind, supportive and good person. If we are being honest in telling ourselves we want a reciprocal healthy relationship then we will also be kind and good to ourselves – not just others- at the expense of ourselves. To be kind and and act kindly/do kind acts you need to know or be working on/be attuned to your own values and worth.
When we people please it’s more motivated by the need to gain approval whilst squashing down our own preferences and needs and busting whatever boundaries we may have. As people pleasers -on one level we get our own approval because we think/feel we are doing the right thing by being kind, good supportive but on the deeper level we are being supportive and kind for a gain – to keep the other person ‘happy’ and approving of us because we are aware of not being part of a mutually respectful dynamic. We are reliant on the approval because it it is withheld then that means we’re not good enough, have failed in some way. We are failing ourselves. It’s so clearly displayed when what’s going round in your (not your’s – the general your) head is ‘ I have no choice in this matter because he is judgemental and critical of my preference’. That translates as; judgement and criticism means I am trapped. This is because I am not doing enough/being enough/giving enough. I have to keep giving until I have given my all then I will no longer be judged or criticised’. As can be seen by countless testimony on Nat’s site, in reality what happens in this dynamic is the opposite.
You are absolutely right! Yes, I felt that he would judge me if I didn’t help. I wanted to show him how wonderful I was. Because I am. The difference is I do not need his validation for that.
The evaluator, in an emergency custody case, interviews everyone around the kids. I am the one interviewed, and got observed with the kids and the dad. I am highly educated and articulate. I speak much better than I write for sure:) I also collect data and analyze it for living to support decision making. So when I talked the the evaluator lady, I presented it with the facts, examples etc. And the court date was the same day for the determination of the custody as my interview. I am not saying that I am the one who got him the kids, the mother’s general lack of self, and putting kids in the danger also helped him a lot. But most of the things I said stuck with the evaluator lady, and she used the events I pointed out during the court. And he got the kids.
At the end of the day, boundaries, yes! A big problem for me. I tend to be very open and giving, and people always take advantage. It is something I need to learn. I am working on it really. Thank you.
Purple, yes. If you’ve found that people are always taking advantage of your kindness and openness, it is a good move to open yourself up to exploring why this dynamic is so prominent in your interaction with others. It’s not easy but is so worth the effort to take the time to open yourself up to you and your own motivations. Of course all in the due course of time. Your first priority is to make sure your daughter and yourself are safe, both emotionally and physically, from this nightmare of a man. Best wishes and stay safe.
Ladies, I think I experienced a people pleasing whiplash moment, and it is costing me my job.
For some reason, I decided to tackle a problem a girlfriend was having. Her hubby was fired from his job for participating in a verbal brawl, because loud interactions are against the employers’ code-of-ethics. I decided my fix was to have a lawyer friend of mine write a letter to the hubby’s boss threatening to countersue, because the boss, in my opinion, orchestrated things so that a verbal altercation would occur.
Why was any of that my concern. I don’t know the husband well and the girlfriend is not a close girlfriend. I went to visit her last weekend because I am working on a beauty product idea with her, I do like her very much, I could feel her pain, and it felt nice to share some closeness.
I have been feeling very disconnected from things lately, for several weeks. I knew that my mind was troubled because I could see clutter starting to grow again in my home. I knew I did not want an AC fix. I feel lost and drifting and unhappy with how I’ve orchestrated my own life. When the girlfriend told me her story, I just lept in because the hubby and I have the same employer – large employer, different location. Well, the employer saw I instigated the countersuit, and I was sent home on suspension. I am waiting to hear if I am fired. They are deciding this now. Given the lack of mutual love, I will probably be fired.
The girlfriend and husband don’t even know what I’ve done.
Not sure why this weird behavior of mine occurred.
I’ve been unhappy and frustrated at that job for quite some time, but staying out of necessity and comfort-zoning. It’s like I would not create a plan to change things, I’ll just stay, be unhappy.
In the past few weeks I’ve realized I’ve been unhappy at most of my jobs during my life.
It will be a financial struggle and I feel like I don’t WANT to find another office job. I feel like I’m living in some kind of fantasy that I can survive without a standard 9 to 5 – but I’ve never done that before.
Waiting for the waves of panic to set in.
So, Lizzp, on some level I think I was so grateful to have a “girlfriend chat” moment, that I rushed in to try to make her happy. Weird. And damaging.
Hi Elgie, Don’t know, maybe that wasn’t a people pleasing moment? You didn’t tell your friend what you were doing(which is a bit odd? That you did that without raising it with her and her hubbie if I’m reading you right..). From the way you put it just sounds like you wanted to show your friend how much you like her and appreciate the time together and that you’re sorry for her predicament…but something went weird at that point, like instead of just saying/expressing that or finding some other way of showing your appreciation and sympathy you did this weird, kind of inappropriate thing (by that I mean not asking her/hubbie if they wanted you to intervene). Could it be that you have unawares used her hubbie’s predicament as an excuse to channel your own dissatisfaction at your employer?
Elgie,
I agree with Lizz.
You could have made it worse for him by not consulting with him first. Now, he will be known through the industry for instigating legal action. Not good!
I’m sorry, but you really overstepped by asking the lawyer to take legal actions on your friend’s behalf.
Oh, I can see NOW that I totally channeled my frustrations into this foreign situation. But there was no premeditation on using his situation to further some personal agenda – I saw it as separate situation, apart from mine yet similar to mine in that managers can $hit all over employees with impunity.
I appreciate the responses, as I need to see this through someone else’s eyes.
When my friend related her story, I did tell her I knew a lawyer friend and would speak to him. I texted her on Monday to let her know I left him a message and hadn’t heard back, which was true the time. She knows nothing else. The fact that a letter was delivered, my predicament, she knows nothing about that. I felt like she and her hubby were better served by being unaware. The hubby is already fired, this was the third and last appeal, nothing changes in his situation.
His third hearing was to be held on Tuesday at 10AM. I texted the girlfriend at noon on Tuesday to ask how things went. She said the hearing had been pushed back because the management had to deal with an emergency at a different location (that emergency was me). I apologized for being nosey, to which she replied “you’re not nosey. You’re family and you’re concerned.” I realized that statement made me feel like I was connected, like I was needed. And I realized I felt the same way when ACMM told me that I “improved his marriage”.
I don’t know why I have problems understanding where MY life ends and someone else’s begins.
Anyhoo, I did hear back from HR, am to meet with them on Monday at 4PM….I’m more than likely fired because the protocol is to have you come in after regular business hours to clear things away, but right now they say this is just for a conversation. What surprises everyone involved is that what I did is so out of character and incongruent with my record. I am seen as a stellar employee with many visible accomplishments.
“I am strong yet very very hurt with the actions of someone whom I loved thought who also loved me…So I am searching first for the tunnel. When I find the dang tunnel I will start to look for the light.”.
Purple,I’m back as something is bothering me when I read this sentence. But I don’t know quite how to express it. We can be hurt and other people can and do hurt us. It is horrible what this man did, he attacked you with emotional brutality, vindictiveness and spite. What he did was emotionally abusive. It is wrong. But what is in your hurt? -we can unpack our feeling hurt – to get to what that actually means to us, what ‘hurt’ is – maybe things like feeling duped, betrayed, shocked, stunned, confused, angry, frightened and damaged, vulnerable(the hurt that is normal in the circumstances and not bad for you)? But don’t let your hurt get stuck around a thought – ie ‘how could he act like this – I thought he loved me, I loved him’. It feels to me like a beginning of self entrapment… If the thought doesn’t stop there then what? “he loved me and he attacked me; is there something wrong with me”. And there is a new hurtful thought right there, taking you down the path of self blame. It’s good to unpack the hurt to see what we feel. When I started doing this I found out a lot about my pain and hurt and I am learning to identify and name my feelings and feel them much better now – some of my hurt was comprised of feelings like small, responsible for others actions,undeserving, not good enough – the sort of feelings that are held up by self destructive beliefs. It’s not being hurt that stops us from finding the tunnel (now I think of it) but if the hurt is held by self destructive belief in ourselves then we are lost and that is why we can’t find the tunnel that we know leads to light.
Very interesting reply, lizzp – thanks for it. I think you are especially right about the need to move on from the ‘shock’ aspect of it (‘how could he hurt me like this, when x, y z?’). This reflects a kind of child-like reaction, where the woman in this case has no power and remains immobilised by her shock reaction.
I much prefer the NML approach of taking some distance from it, not even trying to work it out/understand it and saying instead, ‘He hurt me because this is the kind of thing he does’; ie it really had nothing to do with me.
@ Magpie. I have a lot to work on. Hence I am here, reading, learning and talking etc.. I don’t feel powerless. Yet, that doesn’t change the fact that I am still in shock. I am caught off guard. Plus as I mentioned before this is not a fair fight. But at the end I liked your suggestion of putting it aside, not even thinking about it and then coming back to understand it better. Thank you!
Suki- Exactly.
What an awesome article! Every article seems to hit me just at the right moment. Does that mean I’m really screwed up, or am I finding out more and more about him. Stuff that I chose to ignore. It’s a very hard process to endure. To actually sit and open old wounds to find out about yourself and why you choose these men. I know, for me, it’s been a lifetime of EUM and ACs.
Just this past Friday, I hit rock bottom. I went to a company party and had a few drinks. Although, I had a decent time, I had wished I was there with my ex. We always had such fun together. It’s been three months since our break, with only sporadic contact (nothing to write home about). Four days before the party we exchanged email. He said he was hurt for blindsiding me and hurting me, but he said he didn’t have any further answers to why he felt the need to break up. It wasn’t me, nor anything I did, he told me. He wasn’t looking for something else in anyone else. He was happy that I’ve accepted things. Well, after the party on Friday, I decided to stop by his house (just before midnight). I didn’t expect to walk to the door and see a woman’s purse sitting on the counter top and candles flickering from his bedroom. (He doesn’t keep a curtain on his front door). I knocked and called, but to no avail. I drove home and fell apart. I HIT ROCK BOTTOM is an understatement. My girlfriend talked to me on the phone for two hours that night. Not only was I hurt by what I found, but I was mortified that I even went there and knocked on the door. I’m in my 40s. WTF?!?! I need to get off the relationship crack with this man.
We dated for two years. We were close. I had no idea he was going to blindside me with breaking up. It was all “I love you”, “I’m thankful to have you in my life” Yada Yada Yada up until the very day he decided to stop seeing me. He told me that he wasn’t gaga over me anymore and that maybe our relationship had just run its course. I guess it had for him. He was selfish and wanted things on his terms. He called the shots. Always. But he was right when he said that he completely blindsided me.
I hope now that I’ve hit rock bottom with this person who I truly and sincerely loved with all my being, I can dig my way out and see light again. I don’t know if I hate him or myself more for ruining my trust. I’ve never trusted a man more than I did him. I feel so lost right now.
Elisabeth,
I’m sorry for your pain.
One thing that helped me, was to be honest with myself. Were the signs and red flags there all along. I bet they were, but you chose to ignore them. Were you really blind sighted by his actions, probably not.
I know you hurt, but be thankful this happened, so that you are no longer continuing to hold on hope with this guy. Now, work on you, and understand who you chose, and why.
God, that must have been unpleasant – I’m sorry you experienced that, but his email in itself is a bit strange and extremely self-centered.
First he breaks up with you and then he says he is hapy that you have ‘accepted’ it, what does that mean?
I’ve just ended it with my ex – after trying to end it for years and that is no exaggeration. It would be unthinkable for me to write something like that now, let alone in three months. I would expect him to have moved on by then, but he seems to want to keep you somehow attached to the pain you felt before.
Just one last thing: re-read the way you described your email exchange it’s all about what he wrote/felt – there is nothing about you, or what you wrote or how you felt. This is no criticism of you, but is kind of telling.
Try to block out what you saw and block his emails from now on.
Elisabeth, now you have hit rock bottom, the only way is up. Rock bottom, is a good place, it’s the place where delusion cannot rear it’s head. This is time to really start thorough healing.
You write that you loved this man, somewhat unconditionally, but his actions, don’t prove to me, that he was a man of good moral fibre. He seems to spinning stories, hiding truths, and not a man of great depth.
It’s really time to let him go, keep reading all the stuff on here and doing the intense work that is required to lead you on to your next chapter, and a much more healthier and better life.
There are no short cuts, as we all know, but you get yourself back in the process. You are not alone x
Ladies! Thank you for your comments. I very much appreciate them. They give me hope and strength.
@ Allison: So no crime is a crime until it is proven to be a crime right? This assclown/pinhead/bastard created fake profiles than go ahead and liked my band’s(music) page on FB to let me know of his actions. Then he post my pictures and say things like “I am fake, I am a liar, I am cunt, I go use OKCupid and match.com to get what I want from men etc etc” you get the point, as if I am the one writing them to that fake account. I talked to the police. I live in US so I m not sure how the rules are in UK or if you live there but there is not much leverage here. One of them was kind enough to call him to ask him stop his actions. But at the end I am told the only thing I could do, unless he writes a letter with my name to ask for money, create a financial account or write a letter to my supervisor, his actions are not considered as identity theft. The criminal defense lawyer that I talked to seems to have a completely different opinion. The problem that this stupid assclown has another custody case in January. If I sue his ass off this will go to his file and I am not sure the judge who sees the custody battle won’t like it. Even though I would prefer his kids to stay with him and abused rather than get harmed much worse in their mother’s house, please don’t get me wrong, I don’t think about him at all. I think about myself and my daughter. He is so sick that I am not sure what is the extent of his actions will unfold. If I sue him I will need to be at the same court with him. For people like him any contact is a contact bad/horrible/in the jail or wherever. The team throughout every official I talked to was “Do not contact him”. I have no intention to do so, because I know that this is not a fair game/fight. No matter what I say or even if I make him listen there is no way in hell he will understand. He is sick. Believe me when he wrote to one of those sites right after the police called him “Come and get me” I really wanted to give him a taste of what I am made off, but that is not me. I even considered writing his name and send his pictures to one of those sites saying “Don’t date this assclown! Run away!”. As much as I deeply care about his children and the next poor girl he will charm with his personality and screw over with his lack of character, integrity etc etc I have to focus on my self and let it go. We are all adults, and those are his children. There is nothing I can do.
@ Lizzp: Thank you. I mean really thank you! I live in Bay area and I am so far away from my family. I have wonderful, very supportive friends. I am well respected and loved within my community. Everybody is trying to support me in between “we told you so”, “you didn’t listen any of us” moments. They all mean well and I know they all love me. At the end of the day, fire only burns where it falls. I am flabbergasted with everything that happened. I didn’t deserve any of the things he said or did. I don’t think anybody deserves that. I do remember him telling me the very first time around as an explanation to his actions “I love you so much and I was in so much pain that I wanted you to feel that”. Pardon my French but eff that..
In regular terms he shouldn’t have passed my filters. I lowered the bar way too low. As I was waiting anyone to make a comment about my posts, I read couple of other post from BR. OMG!! It was like magic. So true! right on! so true. Yesterday was a hard day. I felt as if he pushed me from the top of the roller coaster once again. I finally hit the ground. All bruised, hurt etc. I, of course blame myself, I self pity, get angry etc. I guess these are all normal within limits. At the end of the day neither he nor anyone else will determine my self worth, I will. Unfolding, giving myself time, reading, realizing what I am, and reminding myself how sick he is what he has done, and I am not to one to save him. Time..
Colorofpurple- His kids are being ABUSED with him?? You have an obligation to report this!!! How do you know the kids are worse off with their mom? Did you witness the abuse? Did the kids tell you? Did their dad tell you? I’m not ok with removing kids from their parents as first resort but if they’re bring abused, they can’t stay with him either.
Rosie,
I know for sure the kids are worse at their mother’s house. I heard from the kids, dad and witness myself some of the events during that 9 months that makes me strongly believe that is the case. For the abuse part with dad I should clarify. I have seen him treat his children in ways that bothered me. I would never reacted the way he reacted. At that moment I questioned it but it wasn’t severe enough for me to report it as an abuse, and it wasn’t an abuse. I accepted it something of his parenting style but definitely not mine. I have never seen him hit his kids or abuse them physically. I would never guessed he would cyber abuse me either. My comment was more a reflection of how he treated me. More like I am sure he will abuse his kids, too. I also never lived with him, so I was not there to witness all his interaction with the kids other than the times I stayed at his house. Granted that was more than staying at my house. I hope I am making sense.
ColorofPurple,
I am sorry you had to deal with this so early on while you should have been in the dating discovery phase. The reality didn’t give you a chance to discover who he was. I am a parent too and I had a long-distance semi-boyfriend or rather a fantasy friend- kind of boyfriend who had issues with the custody and abusive mother of his child. The entire ordeal and stress overshadow everything else that’s going in between you as a couple. It seems that your major topic of discussion was the custody and the kids with him, which is understandable that the kids are involved in the discussion because there ARE kids. But you were put in the middle of the battle right when you two should have been concentrated on learning about you and him. Life is pragmatic, isn’t it? I am thinking that people with kids might need to wait maybe 3 months at least before introducing their kids to the person they are dating. I never followed that. Always rushed to introduce my daughter. Mistake. And especially if there is some issue going on, I think it’s better to not involve the other person in it , at least in the first 6 months or so. I am just thinking aloud, not judging anyone. But the reality is much more complicated and down-to-earth at the same time. I am very sorry you had to go through this experience and be a part of it while you had not learned about him as a person yet much (3 to 6 months initial period anyway). Hugs and support!
Sofia,
Thank you! I have been reading your comments. I am also very sorry for the things you are going through. Thank you for your support. Hugs and support to you, too!! Thank you and thank you!!
Color,
Good God!
You have to do what you feel comfortable with, but if he continues, would you go after him for slander?
I am in the U.S.
@ Alison. Things are quiet for now. I am thinking he started dating someone and shift his focus to that. I am not sure how long will that last. If he ever does what he did again, I am going to cross that bridge running. I most probably will take serious legal action. At this point, my focus is on me and my daughter. I am not going to let that man terrorize me, steel my piece and I am not going to give him the time of the day and make him the center of my universe and my being. Hell with that! Nobody who treats me this way deserves that. I am the one who decides what is my worth not him or anyone else! Go team!!:))
I feel as if I got into this very sticky and smelly substance. It looked like a spa/Shara from a distance, and looking back I feel as if I was very thirsty. I forgot the bottle of water I had with me. After I figured out what it was, I got out, I took a good shower and got rid of most of the smell and the dirt. Yet, there is still residue. Sometimes it is hard to scrap the leftovers, and it is painful. But I am determined that I am going to get rid of it all.. Because I don’t deserve anything less.
@ Elisabeth why would you want someone who doesn’t want you? My feeling is that the reason he wrote you all these texts is that he was trying to make himself better, probably because he already started this women. If he loved you, really, cared for you really, and valued you he would be the one at your door!! I strongly suggest to get out of that picture, don’t contact him and find yourself something that makes you happy, and never ever look back and no matter what he says go back to him. Just my 2 cents..
Well, I had a bit of a backslide recently, maybe some of you ladies can appreciate. I broke up with my ex about 3 years ago and I won’t go into the details of why (it would take up the entire page) but a very unemotionally unavailable person who was constantly keeping his options open while denying that’s what he was doing. I was constantly catching him in lies. At the same time, I have no family, and he was always present. I feel like if I’d had a family, I would have gotten out earlier, but maybe not. He was very reliable in that way — always present. But unfortunately always present for a mind fuck.
For three years, I just did a shit ton of work on myself. Self help books galore, spirituality, meditation, on and on. I would go NC with him for months and then suddenly he’d send me a cute email and I’d respond. But I never EVER felt like we should get back together.
The main problem was that no matter what I did, I just wasn’t meeting anyone. That was fine for 2 years but after awhile I just started to get lonely and really feel like I wanted a partner — a feeling exacerbated by having no family and just a few good friends to shore me up. Which is okay for the most part.
Well, finally me and ex met for a drink. I felt good about it. I didn’t feel any crackling electricity, we caught up a bit, said our goodbyes, and that was that. My mistake was in thinking I could do that twice — and esp after a weekend of trying to connect with guys online who would show interest only to suddenly disappear. Over and over this happened. And then a good friend died. I just felt like I needed to just accept him for who he was — someone who is there for me in many ways (he was the only person to send me a birthday gift) but can’t be there for me in the ways I would need for a relationship.
Anyway, we met up and somehow after a one drink we were making out. It happened so quickly I don’t even know who started it. We said a lot of things to each other, confessed we still loved each other, and apologized for a lot.
But I know him well enough to know by now that none of that was a guarantee of anything. So I wasn’t surprised when he went the weekend without any contact and then by the time we were emailing each other, he just acted like it had never happened. I understand his pathology (love freaks him the fuck out) so I didn’t take it personally. And I still don’t. He had a rough childhood, as I did. This stuff really messes with you.
Eventually, however, I got irritated with it and told him off. It was just sad to see the connection we can make sometimes and then he just runs away from it, acts like it never happened. I feel sorry for him more than anything. He’s almost 40 and has never lived with anyone, been in a long-term committed relationship? Sad.
But he’s not my problem anymore. I go between vowing never to contact him again and just accepting him for who he is — because the reality is I’m JUST not meeting anyone, and believe me, I am trying. And not to sound shallow but I’m what men would call “beautiful” etc. Every email I get focuses on my looks. But no one sticks around to get to know me.
I guess being single isn’t so bad, though. There’s a lot more to life than a relationship, and frankly, a lot of them are pretty shitty.
Diane,
I understand how you feel. I too don’t have any family around in this country and have only couple close friends, but I rarely see them because they have busy families lives. We communicate by e-mail and text and phone sometimes mostly. I have a daughter though, so I am not as lonely as you are. After a year being single and not dating and even not being ready to date, I have started feeling that I am beginning to feel ready. Exactly your point, it’s hard to meet people. Online is so shady. I stay away. Will never go there. In the age bracket late 30s+ it’s hard. I met a guy at a social event last weekend and he gave me his business card. I am building my network because I am trying to transition into a different career (he is in the industry I would like to be). We had a great conversation and I followed up with him over e-mail. I asked if there is a good time I could give him a call so we can discuss. He suggested that we meet sometime and he can help me out (gaining an employment/learning about the industry). And then no word, silence. I noticed I became very anxious and fast forwarding!!! Although it was not even a dating planned! BR reading for a year and all the rules have been helping. I have applied them throughout. It is my old reaction still. Anxious and fast forwarding! For no reason! Now, I keep turning focus on me. So, I see how you feel lonely. You did a lot of work on yourself, are beautiful. And no one around still. I am told I am beautiful too. Since I turned to God few months ago, I repeat to myself and gain more and more understanding that I am accepting that if I am to remain single. To my understanding it is all in His hands how I am to live the temporary span of life here. I can try changing my career, new skills. I am trying to be a better mother and a friend. But personal life… you just can’t force it or influence it. Yes, you can gain confidence skills, date a lot, go out a lot, keep a wide social network. But sometimes it’s just not working out. I know many wonderful and smart, attractive women who have been single for years . . . Maybe not our time. Not a helpful e-mail, I am sorry. I am struggling with the same issues.
@Sofia, thanks for your reply. Yeah, I even went that route, just giving it all up to the “universe.” I stopped trying to meet people online or anywhere else. Okay, let it happen if it’s going to happen. Well, nothing happened … yet. 🙂 Like you said, maybe it’s not our time. Maybe it’s not our LIFETIME. I’ve only got one (that I know of) so I can’t waste it pining away for a love that may never come. For the most part I am happy, even happier than most of my married friends (frankly, they all seem to be miserable). But it does get lonely. Oh well, we shall see what the new year brings!
Diane,
When I was married I was dreaming to become single:).
Maybe not our time this year, maybe next year. Maybe in 5 years. I know what you mean. Not trying online, not going social, events, etc. Or going all over the place and trying online and still nothing. Tried it all before.
And yes, as you, I can relate I have never been so happy and content finally on my own. But as a woman, I know the loneliness you experience sometimes. It’s normal. Unless we are to become a nun and dedicate our lives completely to God, of course we will always want a partner/husband in our lives. I might be traditional and conservative thinking this way, but after a while (subjective length time), usually a woman does experience a need for partnership. It’s not sexual even. It is relating, caring, nurturing, and building a home. It’s just our nature.
Just keep being happy, wonderful yourself and beautiful. If it is meant to be it will happen. Put your faith into God’s hands. I believe it’s all for the best in the long run. 🙂
Hi, Diane and Sofia,
I’m struggling with this, too. It is hard to meet people.
I’m 50 and live in a foreign country with my little girl.
I think I was happiest when I wasn’t worrying about having a man in my life but then I decided that time was running out for me 🙁
I agree, Diane, that being single isn’t so bad and that there is more to life than a relationship, especially if it’s not a good one.
I’m trying to come to terms with this, as well. Perhaps it is just not meant to be. If not, I’d like to be ok with that.
I’ll keep doing the work and coming on here (it has made such a difference), stay true to my values, and try get out there and make some friends, pray and laugh.
With good friends I am pretty happy and I am just learning how to be my own friend. I didn’t realize that I had to forgive myself. I didn’t want to do that, but decided to after reading Natalie’s posts, “How I Learned to Love Myself Parts 1 and 2”. I’m forgiving myself and trying not to be so hard on me and having my own back. It’s really good.
I’m not sure where it will all lead, but I am excited about it.
I do believe that friends are really important, so maybe that’s enough. I am not sure. Online dating has really taken a lot of time and energy. I don’t think it has been a good idea for me. Thanks, Sofia, for your advice, there. I’m trying to leave being single or not in God’s hands, too.
I think one thing that harms me is believing that I would be better off in a relationship and less lonely. That might not even be true. I also need to stop worrying what others think about my marital status.
Thank you all so much. Peace 🙂
Lori
Lori,
It is certainly better being alone than married but unhappy. I have been in both places and I know I am better off now. Or than like in my last relationship full of anxiety, doubt, and frustration.
Love… I have been reading a lot of spiritual material in the last several months. The best love is we give and not receive. And by that I mean our family, our friends. Our daughters first of all. And there are so many people who need our help and love and care. I read in a lot of the sources that when we feel lonely and unloved and hurt and feel we will always be alone we need to go and help other people in whichever way we can. We have so much love to give. Something to think about. I don’t mean this kind of love replaces a relationship or temporarily “substitutes” our needs. It’s rather something else to experience instead of pining for a relationship, which I am guilty about as well. The pain of loneliness disappears when you give love and care to someone else (not AC or EU but someone who needs it). I am thinking and learning about this and need to put it to practice. Just a suggestion for those of us who are lonely and full of love but no one to give to.
Hi Sofia, nice words. When we stop focusing all our love on one person who treats it carelessly, we can give and find it everywhere. One thing that has made my life more satisfying is to show my appreciation to people a lot more and give credit where it’s due.
And to add, Lori, 50 is not running out of time. It could be your new beginning. Maybe it already is:) Depends how you look at it.
I am at a new life point reset (but not a reset kind of button Nat is talking about:) ) at 37. The happiest and content in my life with few bumps and bruises here and there, incurred by me, but going strong and anew.
Never worry about what others think. It’s your and your little girl’s lives to live. It doesn’t matter what people say. Ever.
Lori, this jumped out at me:
I think I was happiest when I wasn’t worrying about having a man in my life but then I decided that time was running out for me
Time for what? How is time running out for you? There is no time limit on learning to be happy.
This is a good question, because it forces you to think, ‘Why do I define happiness in terms of being with a partner?’ and ‘Why do I think I only have a certain time in which to find a partner?’
Thinking in terms of ‘time running out’ puts you under unnecessary pressure. You have all the time in the world to learn how to be happy, either by yourself, with a group of friends, or with a partner.
But if having partners has always made you miserable, perhaps you need to rethink why you want one.
Hi, Sofia and Ethelreda.
“It is certainly better being alone than married but unhappy. I have been in both places and I know I am better off now. Or than like in my last relationship full of anxiety, doubt, and frustration.”-Sofia.
This is pretty close to my experience, too. I am sorry for what you have gone through. It is such a relief when they are no longer your problem, though it can really hurt for awhile. I am so glad you are happier, now. I imagine that you are enjoying your life with your daughter so much more, from this place of peace 🙂
“The pain of loneliness disappears when you give love and care to someone else (not AC or EU but someone who needs it).” I appreciate this so much, Sofia. I want to shift my focus to this. Loneliness has been in the driver’s seat of my life for way too long. I have wasted a lot of time, but more importantly, energy, on the wrong people and I am exhausted from the lies, games, and constantly shifting goalposts. I want to really be present with my daughter and just love her heart. I will try to get out there and help others, too. I definitely have some social anxiety, and I’m soo tired, but I can use this time to do the work I need to do, to learn to treat myself with love, care, trust and respect. Then, I hope to show up in life differently/ make a difference in the lives of others. That feels som much better. I hate having a goal I don’t really have any control over.
Ethelreda, I think I still dream that someone will take my loneliness away. I define happiness in terms of being with a partner b/c it seems like that’s what the world, and my family, believes. I have one friend, who keeps telling me that I’m old. Why do I listen? It has seemed impossible to get certain people out of my life, b/c I was so terrified of that loneliness.
I love how you wrote: “Thinking in terms of ‘time running out’ puts you under unnecessary pressure. You have all the time in the world to learn how to be happy, either by yourself, with a group of friends, or with a partner.” This is so true. Brilliant
I have written this down to remind me to start thinking this way! I’m tired of being so hard on me.
I have always chosen the partner who was emotionally unavailable in my life, b/c they were exciting and familiar.:( I believe that a healthy person would be different, but I can see, now, that I am not ready.
It’s ok. I’ll keep reminding myself and anyone else that ‘you have all the time in the world to learn to be happy!
It’s our life. I love that. It doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks. I’ll be giving a lot of thought to just why I let it be so important.
Thank you both so much. It is such a relief to start to let go of that constant pressure! Arrgggh, it’s hard!
Big hugs and peace to all.
Love,
Lori
Lori, I can relate to a lot of what you are saying.
Feeling lonely without a partner and learning and trying to figure out how not to be lonely without one. Yet having one made you feel insecure and vulnerable (same here). I too got attached to emotionally unavailable people and pushed away the emotionally available husband I had in my 20s for 8 years. It took 8 years of single lonely life attaching to misters unavailables to finally understand that I screwed up my marriage. Well two people are responsible, but I know my immaturity and lack of life experience back then pushed it to the end.
Now I am alone still after numerous dates and one serious boyfriend (the last one I had was a serious one or so I had thought) but not lonely for the first time. I do have moments now that I am recovering and healing from the relationship from last year when I feel lonely. It seems I see couples or married couples everywhere. And I am alone everywhere. Shopping, going out, movies, social events. Always alone. Makes me feel sad sometimes, but it is different. Has been different. I feel I am getting used to it and finally accepting it that being alone is how it will be for me perhaps. I am learning to live a different life. The life where I can be happy by myself with my daughter. Yes, even my relationship with my daughter improved after this last epiphany relationship. I became much more emotionally available to her and engaged. I feel so much close to her now and enjoy every moment together. My daughter is 10 and she is getting into this transitional age from a child to a teenager, so we have our challenges, but this age is so sweet and we have lots of fun together. I am excited to keep on growing with her and raising her and helping her to become a confident woman, who knows that her worth is not defined by someone else’s appraisal or behavior or rejection etc. She actually tells me such things sometimes I am amazed and think that I should be learning from her. She has a solid self-esteem and I am happy for that. I guess her dad and I did /do something right. He takes her every other weekend, but they are very close and he loves her and shows all the praise and affection. Limited time but quality time. She knows she is loved by many other family members and not judged. I am happy for her she has that. So important for a little girl, and why I am even bringing this up is because I see here so many stories (including mine) that we were unloved, criticized, ignored, punished, etc and left lacking love and approval in the childhood. So hence our craving for the drama and discomfort of dealing with unavailables. It is similar and seems “normal.” I recognize all of this so much and try as much as I can to build a secure and loving world for my daughter and not repeat all the things that happened for me when I was growing up.
As about loving oneself and respecting oneself – it is important I agree, but the part of what I would like to add to Nat’s advice is that we can open an entire new world of ourselves to others and our lives will be enriched when we focus on other people also. Not just us. Us is us. But we don’t live in an isolated vacuum. There are people who need help and love. Giving them love and your time is the precious gift. I am not saying revert your focus from you to other people and not suggesting being the pleasing and all, no I am saying respect and love yourself but give yourself to others. That’s the best love, the unconditional love that not only helps others but make us feel happy too. I think. I am trying to practice what I preach. Even one kind act/word a day makes a world of difference to someone. Once you start engaging with others and giving them your warmth and kindness, you will feel love all around you. It is fulfilling. So just to repeat myself, I don’t believe that focusing on you only is enough. Love yourself and others (not ACs of course). 🙂 People will be happy to receive your love and care. And your life will blossom from it as well.
That’s the best love, the unconditional love that not only helps others but make us feel happy too. I think. I am trying to practice what I preach. Even one kind act/word a day makes a world of difference to someone. Once you start engaging with others and giving them your warmth and kindness, you will feel love all around you. It is fulfilling
Hi, Sofia,
I sent only part of my reply, for some reason.
My daughter is 10, too! That is so awesome that your daughter has such high self esteem. You really have done something right! Super!
You wrote-I am learning to live a different life. The life where I can be happy by myself with my daughter. I am so excited to hear that this is working for you and that you are getting a new life!
I think this is really exciting. It really is like a new start and it makes me feel that I can do it, too.
I’m sorry about your marriage. I can totally relate to ‘immaturity and lack of life experience’. I really regret choosing EU people over the EA people who were in my life-in and out of the context of a long term relationship. Being single for almost a decade after my marriage didn’t help. I hadn’t healed, but these last two relationships taught me that being alone is not the worst thing, and to be grateful/take care of what I have. My ex-husband is a good father, too. There truly is so much to be grateful for. And, it’s not too late for any of us.
I’m becoming more present and available to my daughter, too. It’s a journey, but so important. I have had so much fun with her, even though it has been hard to be alone. I see, too, how many of us here were not loved and felt rejected and unworthy. It’s so hard to overcome all that.
I’m bringing my daughter up the best I can, on principles like those we are being taught here. She teaches me, too. It’s great 🙂
You wrote: the best love, the unconditional love that not only helps others but make us feel happy too. I think. I am trying to practice what I preach. Even one kind act/word a day makes a world of difference to someone. Once you start engaging with others and giving them your warmth and kindness, you will feel love all around you. It is fulfilling.
I LOVE this! Thank you so much for this reminder and for your encouragement. I will write this down and keep it next to my computer, so I can remember. I’ll be continuing to learn to love me and get out there with love for other people. You are so right. It does feel really good. I don’t have to worry about this relationship thing, loneliness or what other people think. It really doesn’t matter. Bless your heart. Let’s see what the future brings! Enjoy your little one! 🙂
Hugs! and peace to all of us…
Love,
Lori 🙂
Lori, I feel you are on the right track already. Keep reading the site and the archives too. I do the repeat reading of many pertinent articles once in a while. I learned so much from this blog. Keep learning and I will continue doing so.
Even if you don’t believe, God loves you and when nobody (or you think so) needs or loves you, know He always does. Turn to Him and ask for mercy and help. We will all end up turning to Him and meeting Him at the end. God bless you.
You sound strong. Intelligent, kind, and very in touch with yourself person. 37 or 50 is just a number. Most importantly, let’s continue looking for the value in ourselves and how we can share that value we have and serve with this value to people who need it. I am learning myself. Let’s venture into the new life of giving and loving.
Hugs and best wishes, Lori, I am sure we will get in touch through other posts soon.
This blog by Nat has been the amazing support of wisdom, tough love, honesty, reality check for me throughout this year. I add spirituality and faith to this, but her practical , no BS wisdom and truth gets to the point fast and accurately. Thank you, Nat. My many thanks I can’t express enough.
Lori,
One of the things my daughter said, “Mama, there is no such a thing as a prince on a white horse. just stick to those who treat you right and stand up for yourself.”
I learned this only now. She is 10!
🙂
Sofia,
Your daughter is amazing! Wow, wish I’d known that! 🙂 You are doing a great job.
This blog is so helpful. I’m reading posts in the archives. There is so much to learn.
I appreciate your kind advice and wise words so much. I learn so much here. I’m grateful to my last relationship, at least for bringing me here.
I’m a believer, too. I think I got scared, really run down and isolated. Yep, I’m ready to try and try again, and .. “venture into a new life of giving and loving”. Beautiful. 🙂
Thank you.
Peace and hugs,
Love to all
Lori.
Hi Natalie,
I am a reader from Germany who has been following your blog entries for a couple of months while going through my own experience with a Mr Unavailable. I just want to say “Thank you” for all those great and useful insights! Your posts have helped me to `get real´, stop the delusion (which took several months!)and see some light at last;-)
Some of your posts made me laugh out loud – like the one about your Dot Dot Dot man – mine was the same: most of his conversation (by text, of course!) started or/and ended with these three infamous litte `…´ – that alone should have been a big red flag at the beginning of our (non-)relationship, and I guess it was, but I just projected on him big time and got swept away with `great chemistry´ (translate: great sex), bought into his charming, sexy, manly ways, his `personality´, his skills, experience, talents and education which as a package looked and felt soooo good, exciting and inspiring at the beginning that I failed to see the down-sides of that “Alpha”: a narcissistic Mr Unavailable in his late 50ies who is totally wrapped up in his own issues, his ego ups-and-downs, depressive states, a 10-year-fight with his employer, his on-and-off relationship with a much younger “ex” who still needs him but they are just friends (of course, although they sleept in the same bed when she visited him, he couldn´t tell her about me because it would shatter her to pieces… well, same old story, same old song!)
To make a long story short: it took me a year, much pain, tears, heartache, trial & error, cringing experiences, revisiting the past, weeks of `inertia´ before I found the strength to cut contact, uphold several months of NC, followed by “only” two short fall-back episodes (fortunately with no sex involved) before I finally decided to abort mission and let go. Reading your blog but also Melanie Tonia Evans´ Narcissism and Relationship blog (http://blog.melanietoniaevans.com/) as well as looking into Sam Vaknin´s material on Narcissim on youtube and his blog has helped me tremedously in understanding why Mr Unavailables are what they are: temporarily or constantly unavailable and – the more severe cases of them: even unable to love or empathise. It´s sad but it´s the truth, and no woman no matter how sexy, loving, kind, devoted, playful, strong, independant, open-hearted or -minded, flexible, beautiful, understanding, funny, thoughtful, sociable, successful will ever change that! It doesn´t matter how much physical, emotional, intellectual or whatever efforts or going-with-the-flow you put into that kind of `relationship´with such men, the point is: they simply don´t want or are unable to give and receive love, at least when they obviously never had a really trusing, committed relationship in their entire life (and we´re not talking about 20-year-old boys here!)
Since then, I have been focusing on myself, my kids, my work, my friends, my hobbies, re-decorating my house, working out and most of all doing the necessary inner self-work and I feel so much better and healthier today!
I am even slowly reconnecting with my husband – we had mutually taken a longer break from our relationship over the last year, allowing each other to date other people – and we are getting closer again with no pressure but respect, sympathy, support, curiosity and loyalty. I know that doesn´t sound as enticing as the `chemistry thing´ but I have come to the conclusion that character matters more than personality.
Again, thanks for your great work and to all you ladies out there:
much courage & strength, keep walking, lay out your boundaries and stick to them, and you will eventually detach from your Mr Unavailable and be free for a guy who is worth it! 🙂
Alice, I’m confused – if you’re married, you’re technically also unavailable for a real relationship with this EU, yes? Not sure what the rules you set up with your spouse for the break are [as in, are you allowed to develop serious relationships with others, move in with them, get divorced, whatever]… But if the break is about being able to explore with other people, and you are already married — why are you choosing over dramatic people like this EU OR why are you getting so caught up in what he does with his younger ex? The way I see it, the only real thing you are in the market for is a casual relationship, or some fun – so what stops you from doing that?
Getting closer together with a spouse you are separated (i assume) from does sound more enticing than ‘chemistry’ with an EU who has hooked bad feelings in you.
Oh, I love this so much, Nat you are spot on. And a brilliant, strong woman that has helped me immeasurably. The more I grow, the more I see how you have helped. You are a life support from above in a fish bowl of sharks. It is saddening to see how many awful messages there are directed at women who just want some truth about dating and romance. You are a prophet and a godsend. I have freedom; I no longer live in a fish bowl and I no longer swim with sharks.
As an artist, I see many brilliant and skillfully competent people who inspire me with which I feel a deep sense of reverence toward their work. But I make no mistake. Relationally awful people are quite capable of doing brilliant work. I give thanks for their effort to the arts and keep my distance. But at the same token, lovely humans can do brilliant work, too.
I am only concerned with befriending or getting involved with folks with similar values to mine: Honesty, Monogamy (applicable in romantic relationships of course), Responsibility, and Care.
I settle for nothing less in all my personal endeavors. No one gets close unless they fit the bill for values. Values. Values. Values. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Oona and Noquay,
I’m in a similar position to you both. No family support and not really and friend support either. It’s true advice suggests we ought to draw upon both during challenging times, but there’s no advice for what to do when this is not possible (or there is but it’s not easy to glean).
What I do is use professional support in place of what I lack re family and friend support. In some ways this is preferable as that way everyone doesn’t know my personal business. Ever noticed how folks from very upper class backgrounds tend to hold news of any difficulties they (or their children) are or have experienced tightly to themselves in terms of not discussing details with friends or sometimes even family (if any of these people even know about the issue at all). Apart from the whole “keeping the dysfunctional reality secret” take on this, I’ve come to realise it’s based in a kernal of wisdom. They know what folks from lower SES backgrounds may not realise, which is that folks WILL judge, and once someone knows something about you (all be it that what they THINK they know and what the TRUTH is may be very different things due to “chinese whispers” and they actually on heard some dodgy 10th hand rumour which was wildly incorrect to begin with) from the perspective of the person this (mis?)information concerns, they NEVER unknow it. The more sensitive the nature of personal information a friend of family member may in fact know, the greater the power they have over you in terms of of possibly MISUSING that information later on down the track. It’s taken me a long time to realise this and I only did after finding myself a victim of grossy distorted false rumour syndrome. To this day I continue to be affected by this particular rumour in circles of folks that have no connection whatsoever with where the misinformation originally eminated from.
Hence, although I have no family or friend support (I do have friends but not ones I would feel comfortable disclosing the real guts of what I am going through to – this being because this involves complex PTSD related to a severe abuse history), I think in some ways maybe this is a blessing.
On the downside I do indeed have times when I need to self soothe and distract myself from some mightly unpleasant C-PTSD (and also persistent major depressive disorder) symptoms basically alone, but this too have caused me to develop an incredibly strong inner resilance. When I was younger if I was deeply distressed about something I felt an overwhelming urge to have to discuss this with someone. I still feel that urge but if it gets too strong outside of professional therapy I know I can call a help line and talk about it (something I used to do quite often but rarely have need of nowadays although I did do this over the Xmas when an unepected major eff up of my own doing with possibly serious consequencs arose – something I am now in the midst of dealing with).
I understand those that suicide in circumstances of isolation also but here is my take on it. No-one actually gives a sh*t about me, at least within my family (friends I’m sure do). My abusers (some of whom I’ve been slowly bringing to account. Others whom are now totally excluded from my life) include family members. Thus, numerous members of my own family would be quite happy if I suicided because then the abusive members of this would be completely off the hook (and for reasons I will never fathom there are members of my family that have sided with my abusers since I revealed this. That is, they support my abusers, primarily my mother and sister, and not me. Go figure. I find the whole thing really bizarre no long give a toss as to WHY). “See”, they would all say after I was gone, “Teachable was UNSTABLE and what she said about us wasn’t TRUE” (despite me never having never having harmed myself or anyone else in any way, never having threatened to harm myself or anyone else in any way and never having needed any sort of psychiatric care in my entire life – unlike THEM I would add).
So, let the assholes win by playing into their twisted and tortured little minds? Nope, aint gunna happen! LOL What IS happening is that I’ve had the opportunity recently to yet again reinforce BOUNDERIES OF STEEL with my family and abusive members of this in particular. My life is FINALLY totally abuse free and I’m LOVIN IT! 😀
I took time to look up one of Nat’s old posts re dysfunctional families yesterday and I related a lot. Especially to those who’d had a substantial amount of therapy (such I have – this being WHY I’ve held things together so well my entire adult life – despite the psychiatric injuries I’ve incurred as a consequence of severe abuse ie C-PTSD and depression) and who’d spent years pointing out how dysfunctional their families were to members of this. I’ve done this too, for many years now but it’s finally dawned on me THEY DON’T CARE – NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM (because they are ALL dysfunctional in one way or another and deep down they KNOW IT)!
I’ve realised that for a long time I was asking myself the WRONG question (which was, why do my family treat me so badly?) I finally twigged and started asking myself the RIGHT question which is WHAT AM I GOING TO DO ABOUT IT? Now that I’ve focused on THIS instead and done what I needed to do I am feeling a lot better! Simples!!!
Love to all. X
Oh and also it TAKES WHAT IT TAKES to recover from any sort of trauma relationship related or otherwise. I’m really in snyc with this atm as I’ve been out of the world of work for 4 years now. FOUR YEARS! Am I happy about this? NO WAY! Do I intend to CHANGE IT and eventually get back to work? HELL YES! Given all I have been through in life however this will not occur overnight. The abuse I have suffered was PROFOUND (both in early life and later with workplace bullying and the dodgy ex who died also). Hence, it will just have to take as long as it damned well takes!
On the ex that died btw it’s the 3rd anniversary of his death in a few days. I have no mixed emotions and feel very at peace with how things ended. I most certainly got closure in my own way. That was, to acknowledge that this person wilfully and knowingly screwed me over and therefore deserves not a moment more of me giving him any thought. Was he an unwell man with mental health issues and a drug problem? Yep! But you know what? I’m not mother freakin teresa and forgiveness is not my bag. I honestly hope I remember what that “man” did to me for the remainder of my days. It was a powerful lesson in everything I never want to happen again.
Oh and like you Noquay I learned what I DIDN’T WANT in life from my family. Out of my mother, aunts, siblings and cousins I am the FIRST to undertake & complete tertiary eduation (by a good 15 years!!! and my cousin that finally studied eventually did so at my suggestion!), the ONLY one to buy a home on my own, and as far as my mother, uncles, aunts and sister goes the ONLY one in a healthy relationship! MINE is with MYSELF. I would rather a healthy relationship with ME anyday than an effed up unhealthy one with someone else. I did NOT come this far in life to rip myself off just when I’m nearing the home straight (ie ALMOST ready to get out there and hopefully find that special someone to share my life with). NO WAY!
Teach 😉
Suki,
Thanks for taking the time to read and comment! I was away on holiday so please excuse my delayed reply.
I can understand that what I shared of my story must sound a bit strange. Truth is, my husband and I had mutually agreed on an open relationship because our intimate life had constantly decreased since the birth of our kids (a decade ago) almost to the point of zero after 20+ years. Neither therapy nor self-help worked and we both felt totally stuck in a sexless sort of “best-buddy-marriage.” However, we weren´t ready to get divorced, not only because of the kids, but also because we still liked and respected each other very much. So we thought it would be good to allow each other some space and – yes, casually date other people. This certainly wasn´t the sanest approach, and it turned out that it didn´t work long-term, but at least we were honest with each other, it was based on consent, and we weren´t (technically) cheating.
So it is true that when I met “my” EUM, I was probably out there “just for some fun.” Or so I thought. It was indeed casual in the beginning. But that changed very quickly. The affair with the EUM was a rollercoaster and went from casual to intense to a total fall-out for reasons I am still struggling to fully grasp. After 9 months, I felt so helpless, exhausted and discarted that I left the scene and him altogether. For weeks afterwards, I could barely function- nothing made sense? I obsessed about the “whys” & “what-ifs” & “how-could-hes”…It is only now that I fully
Later, I realized that I had had no concept whatsoever would or could happen when I met him and started the affair. Unlike him who’d had affairs all of his life (also during his marriage. He once told me that he stopped counting the women he laid at no. 80 – note that this was before his 25-year-relationship with his wife.)
When I met him, I had no idea that I would become the “supply” of a man with a narcissistic personality disorder. I didn´t even know that sort of disorder existed, let alone what it looked like.
At first, in the idealization (honeymoon) phase, he displayed his “hunter abilities” and “sucked” me into his world, thoughts, history and universe with charms, sexual experience and by anticipating all my wishes and – seemingly – meeting all my needs. There were red flags (of course!), like the other woman still in the picture, that he deliberately spoke of his loooong record of cheating in relationships, had recurring depressive episodes and mood swings and a constant fight with his colleagues and employer (according to him, he had been mobbed and bullied for years because of his outstanding talent, skills and achievements as a journalist). But I chose to ignore those red flags because the rest seemed so perfect and because we were such a great match on other levels. It seemed that we had so mich in common.
I also thought that he was a hurt man because his parents had beaten him as a kid, and that he was brave and to be praised for attacking the msinstream system (= he works at a big media outlet) by pointing at incomsistemt and even criminal stuff that – according to his twisted Version that everybody else denied – had happen within the system such as sexual harrasment and violation of journalism standards. Today, I know that “follie à deux” and paranoia are typical traits of narcissism but back then, I had no idea. I was enamoured like a teenager and in total denial. I also thought that if only I loved him the right way, he would open up and “let me in”. After all, he was a renowned war journalist, a fighter for justice, freedom & women’s rights. I didn’t know that narcissists relentlessly seek and depend on excitement, danger and drama to soothe their need for narcissistic supply…
I naively believed him and ber on potential, and I had the “I-can-change/save-him syndrome”. A typical #co-dependant behaviour.
At the beginning, our affair became more and more intense, he was affectionate and loving, understanding and open. But I certainly overlooked code red flags:
For example, he always withdrew, pulled away after an especially intimate phase. The better the date/weekend/sex, the more distant and shady his behaviour afterwards. I thought the reason was his “fear of committment” (I know how ridiculous that sounds, but I really thought that was the reason) whereas in fact, he was playing the Fast Forwarding and managing down expectations game to keep me hooked and the whole thing off-balance. I FELT something was not right and told him many times, but he somehow managed to keep me invested by throwing crumbs everytime I was ready to leave… and then Wash-Rinse-Replay… Highs and downs, hurt and pleasure, sweetness and total silence/stonewalling alternated so quickly that I simply could’t keep pace anymore. After every WE with him, I was totally drained, confused and turned upside-down – mentally, emotionally & physically. It was very confusing and difficult to pin down for me, and the fact that he moved to another city three months into the relationship made it even more difficult. He always blamed his work situation and depression for his unavailabilty. At that time, I didn´t know that the real reason behind this depression and the frenetic emotional rollercoaster were the narcissistic cylces of ups & downs that he went through: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-d2faeZuK2M
Nor did I understand his reasons for lying to his former girl-friend and keeping her (and many” online hook-ups) on the side line. I wasn’t aware of the tactic of triangulation. Btw, here is an excellent article on “triangulation”, the best I´ve ever read, on how narcissist pit different women or “targets” again each other and others in the back like of their supply chain to keep targets off-balance: https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=749753525109618&id=114835348601442&substory_index=0
I had not heard about narcissistic projection, and the idealization/devaluation/discard cycles either, in fact I knew nothing about the mechanism of narcissism. But my gut feeling told me that there was something terribly wrong with this man and our relationship. I also felt that I was denying my own values, disrespecting my boundaries, betraying myself and spiraling down with all of that. E.g., he always pushed for a threesome (which I rejected) and became cold and angry, punishing me with bad mood, twisting my reasons around and against me for not wanting group sex/threesomes. I told him that I wasn’t ready to even consider that kind of stuff unless I would feel safe, committed and protected in our relationship. Today, I am SO glad that at least I didn’t give my dignity away as regards threesomes et al.! However, I let him act out his sado-maso kinks, like bonding me, hand-cuffing me, calling me names during sex, slapping me and using tools such as whips, red lip-stick… I had never tried that “Shades of Grey” stuff before but I was curious, it was just as exciting as it was disgusting, it made me loose control (which was new to me) and it gave me a certain, temporary power over him: after that kind of sex, he thanked me deeply, kissed and cuddled me for hours, shared his most imtimate stuff with me, we laughed and cried together and had the best time ever. in
I could handle it. I learned the hard way that this would imvade my body, my mind and my soul so deeply that it will take me months, if not years to recover from experiencing such a total take-over.
There came a point where the mask crumbled, the bad moments out-weighted the excitement, and where the inconsistencies became so obvious that I couldn’t ignore them any more. I was constantly walking in egg-shells, struggling with words, playing games (I hated that) to keep him interested, trying to make sense of it all, trying to move things forward (which he always prevented with breath-taking lies)… my kids were suffering from my WE absences, the Situation at home declined – my husband and I didn’t cope with the “ölen relationship situation”, so I had to make a decision: stay or go.
I started to search for clues and googled “cybersex addiction”, “emotional unavailable”, “depression”, “hot and cold” and the like. I came across Natalie´s blog, Melanie Tonia Evans´ blog on recovery from narcissistic abuse, Sam Vaknin´s blog and Youtube videos on narcissism (each of them described “my” EUM to a T!)and finally, all pieces of the puzzle fit. It took me half a year and several relapses/fallbacks into denial, including breaking no contact and suffering the consequences, to really understand that I was dealing with a narcissist, who on top suffers from intimacy disorder and cybersex addiction (he spent entire days on casual dating sites, deleted his profile when we were together but has immediately re-actived it after I left it- and I am certain he has already hooked new suppy).
What makes it so hard to move on is that by the time I realized what I was dealing with, I hadfallen in love. I am not sure if I should call this love however, rather “infatuation” based on a terribly strong physical chemistry, mind-blowing sex and “corresponding pathologies” (narcissm on his part and co-dependancy on my part). I know that was foolish and I should have protected my heart earlier. But I didn´t. There is much more to say but I feel I shouldn´t back and instead focus on the future.
I have gone to total no contact after Christmas this year. Of course, there was hoovering from his part. But I don´t react any more. The sad thing about it is that I still care for him as a person, depite the discard, the lies, the cheating, the silent treatments and so on. I know he hurts too. During our good times, he told me that he had mostly acted out his Cyber sex/Chat addiction when he had felt very lonely, lost and depressed. He also told me that it felt so good to be out of that fantasy world, to be in real life with me, to feel close and connected.
Nevertheless, I finally realize that it is his choice to stay in Lalaland:http://youtu.be/og1AWnzN5u0 . I can’t and won’t compete with fantasy land. I have grien sick and tried of feeling unworthy, not good enough.
I understand that he doesn´t want my love or help, that he even despised me for loving him and offering him love, tenderness, an open ear, a shoulder to cry on and physical intimacy. It was when I had totally opened up my heart and put my trust in him when the discard phase started. He withdrew, pulled away and totally let me down on all levels.
On the other hand, the experience has enabled me to take some serious and honest mirror time and tackle my own childhood issues. I recognized that I needed to grow up on many levels too, including intimacy issues. So yes, you are probably right when you say that I wasn´t totally emotionally available myself: otherwise why would I´ve picked a man that was totally unavailable, or ignored the fact for several months? Today, I am aware of the toxic cycle, I have read Pia Melody´s books on love addiction and intimacy issues, and I have learned my lesson the hard way!
I have started to take good care of myself (and my “inner child”) and tackle my co-dependancy issues, so that I do not pass them to my children. It´s a long and windy road but I feel that I am progressing. My husband and I started counseling again. Our sex-life has become better. We are sharing more intimacy. And we can see that the kids feel much better, more secure.
I still feel waves of terrible loss, pain, helplessness, longing and desperation when I think of the EUM. It is like a drug withdrawl, and I have learned that for the body & mind, it IS a withdrawl. But I know that if I focus on my own life, my own happiness, and on progressing in my own reality, in the here and know, it will get better. And it DOES get better with every day of no contact.
I know this is a very long post. It feels good to share this here. It’s another step on my path to healing.
I would like to add a link to an excellent post on “Food for thought on healing” written by Carrie Reimer:
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