One of the biggest fears people in unhealthy relationships have, is that if they call it as they see it and opt out, that maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow but soon or possibly in 2025, this person may become a better person in a better relationship, with somebody else. This scares the beejaysus out of them because they’re afraid that what they experienced was particular to them hence if this person ‘changes’, it’s perceived as rejection and/or being ‘wrong’ and a ‘failure’.
“I wasn’t good enough to make him/her change. Why this person and not me? I gave my all. I put up with all sorts of crazy sh*t and they had X years of my life – if anybody deserves this change it’s me!”
This is why some people ‘protect their investment’ and reject that it’s not working by remaining in the situation even if it makes them utterly miserable.
Often when readers share their stories with me about why they’re remaining in a relationship or why they’re continuing to engage with an ex even though this person may have moved on to someone else, what becomes apparent is that sometimes we prioritise our need to be right over our need and desire to be happy.
Sometimes we prioritise our need to be right over our need and desire to be happy.
If you’re in this situation where you’re continuing to engage, the fact that it is continuing and they’re participating no matter what the capacity, communicates to you that they haven’t changed and so you can breathe easier in your uncomfortable comfort zone.
It’s like, “Well if I’m going to continue being unhappy, I can at least rest assured that they’re not out there having a better life as a changed person because they’re still texting / sexting / emailing / trying to sleep with me / sleeping with me / borrowing money / making the same BS promises etc.” If you’re No Contact and they stop making attempts, you panic and reach out just to make sure that they haven’t changed.
In the relationship it’s, “We could break up but if we don’t then nothing really has to change and I can stick to dodgy solutions in my people pleasing repertoire and focus on them. If we broke up, I’d have to change but more importantly they might change.”
You’d rather be right about how effed up it is but not so right that you’d act upon the information. Even a little bit of doubt is enough to keep you hooked in.
You know that things don’t look or feel right but you’re blinded because you’re making it about your worth or what you think you might have done to ‘provoke’ their behaviour.
It may feel personal to you, like a special performance of their character for the undeserving, especially if you’ve accepted the unacceptable as a means to ‘get’ their love and validation and so are feeling more than a little ‘owed’.
You want it to be 100% awful / 100% wrong because even 99% in your mind means ‘reasonable doubt’.
And so the cycle continues and you keep engaging and it’s as if you’d rather suffer now and not make a firm decision for fear that some time in the future, this person will change and that even if that time is in ten years time and you’ve actually moved on, you can’t bear the thought of being ‘wrong’. You might even hate the idea that somebody else will come along and recoup the return on your investment. It’s this reason alone why so many people fall for the Returning Childhood Not-Such-a-Sweetheart fantasy.
Continuing to engage with somebody because you’re comforted by the fact that at least you know that they haven’t changed isn’t a healthy reason to remain.
You’re being territorial even though you can’t actually accept this person as they are and forge a healthy, mutual relationship with them. It’s like “Yeah you’re not over your ex / can’t be trusted / an assclown but you’re my rebounder / liar / assclown.” You have to be careful of feeling entitled due to some ‘debt’ that you think you’re owed – it would be better to have standards and boundaries by not accepting shady behaviour or just flat out recognising when you’re no longer compatible.
Hanging around because you want to be doubly sure that they really are effed up and haven’t changed is really effed up not least because you are becoming the barrier to your own happiness and growth. The funny thing is that you may well be confirming that they haven’t changed but they’re also confirming that you haven’t either. They know that you’ve changed when you stop engaging or match your words and actions.
If you’re truly intent on doing right by you, it doesn’t matter about not being around to reap the ‘reward’ of their change because you will benefit from your own. Sure you can make your life about being right, but it’s better to learn from the feedback whether you’re ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ and apply it so that you can be happy.
Your thoughts?
About the Author:
Natalie Lue is the founder and writer of Baggage Reclaim and author of the books Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl, The Dreamer and the Fantasy Relationship and more. Learn more about her here and you can also follow her on Facebook and Twitter - @baggagereclaim .
Natalie (NML) – who has written 1083 posts on Baggage Reclaim by Natalie Lue.
• 
• 
• 
• 
Related Posts
195 Responses to When You Hang Around Or Keep Engaging To Confirm That They Haven’t Changed
Leave a Reply
Get Notified When There’s A New Post
Natalie’s Books
I'm also on Google+.
Tbh girls i ve hung around for four odd years . Ihad a affair it ended he got married and like a idiot i hung around for four years . Simple as . Hoping hed resume the affair he didnt he just used me and i let him . Instead of walking back then ,i hung in there . As soon as you not getting what you want you should bail . I believe new women stood her ground and left her husband and expected him to leave wife he did eventually six months later . So stand up for yourselves and walk from crap treatment however hard .
I’m stuck in this stage right now. I know it’s ridiculous since I should know from his history that it wasn’t just me. I’m sure his ex was watching us, hoping to see him be an AC to me and he was. I just can’t seem to let it go. I’m still hoping that as long as I’m around, he’ll NEVER change. I’m realizing that doing so only hinders my ability to move on. I need to stop and concentrate on MY own happiness.
Not to mention a complete waste of your precious time. I’ve learned that no matter what kind of a ‘connection’ you believe you have with your Assclown, when it finally ends (cause it will eventually end…) you’ll realize you really didn’t share that much, at least nothing good. And they won’t skip a beat when it comes to mogul g on. So ladies… Time to grow up, mentally, emotionally, even spiritually, and kick that bad habit to the curb. You are the most important person in your life. Take the blinders off, and be open to the good that life is waiting to offer you. Stop thinking negative, that no one will want you because of whatever negative excuse you tell yourself.
Yeah hey. I cut all contact with my AC last week and already he’s tweeting about hooking up with other girls. I mean we used to be friends once upon a time so you’d expect a bit more respect.
One word: guilty.
Now that I’m aware of this, I can modify my behavior.
Thank you.
Great piece in NYTs today on break-up app! Could help with NC and the whole ‘out of sight, out of mind’ process:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/07/fashion/apps-and-web-sites-that-go-with-a-breakup.html?smid=fb-nytimes&WT.z_sma=ST_WTC_20130307&_r=0
I can’t believe there’s an “app for that”! Why didn’t some 20-somethings think of this sooner.
Demke – you are right on the money!!! Everyone else PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE listen to what we are posted. I have lived it and those who ae just starting off listen to us! It’s not worth & pain & suffering in the end.
Ah, ha. I put out some bait to see if I’d catch a shark again. I did. I will never put my toes in that water again.
HOLY SH_T!!! this is why i am still f&cking the xwife.
OMG – you hit the nail on the head. I am floored with this information. I spent 16 years married tring to fix her and now that we are divorced she is pretending to be nice and i thought i was giving her sex out of fear or appeasement, but this article is it. I need to reread this one many times. THANK YOU.
The poor girls i’ve been with since divorce I was just using to get over my xwife.
I just f&cked the xwife and new GF in the same day
ugh.. I am AC – DAMNIT! Im ashamed. Can you talk about codependent not sure if it applies to me
At least we could reach one man
It’s good that you’re aware of your habits, now you can become a better person.
Roberto,
Does your GF know that you are sleeping with multiple women?
Have you considered celibacy while working through your issues.
I dated a guy like you, and I can honestly say I had never known such craziness and pain, as he couldn’t deal with the divorce from the ex. Do you really want people to know you as a user and asshole?
EUM
I’m not excusing what you’re doing but neither do I judge you. I’ve done similar myself. At some point, even while you’re still confused, needy, hurting, guilty and feeling shite you just have to stop doing the wrong thing. Then, in time, the right thing will reveal itself to you.
In case you’re confused, definitely stop having sex with the ex wife and consider ending the new relationship. At least tell the new person what you’ve been doing. From what I gather from your previous posts, she may already know but that still doesn’t make it right. it’s just too messy.
Roberto,
You’re having sex with your ex wife to make sure she hasn’t changed? I’m sure there are other ways to gauge where she’s at. But that’s not a good thing either. In any way.
If you wanted healthy interactions you would be single and working on yourself.
I kept doing this last year hoping my ex AC would change into a better man if I wasn’t there – he didn’t and he started treating me worse than before.
Lesson learned and I don’t do it now, I’m just wasting my time because he doesn’t really care about me. When I see him for what he is without the rose coloured glasses on, he’s just a pathetic, posturing, scared little man with not much character – death of my fantasy LOL.
I care about me more than I care about him and I’m starting to understand what that really means.
Thanks Nat your posts and the comments by other readers of the blog are invaluable in keeping me centered and real.
While driving my car today I had lots of time to think and I came to the conclusion that if I´m really honest with the EUM I´d tell him (in my mind, because I´m NC) I lost all respect for him. After all the hot-coldness, ff, manipulations and lying, what else could I feel?
This realisation made me very happy because in the past I wouldn´t even come to ask myself if I respect the other person or not, I´d be busy doing as this article describes.
I also figured telling a narc like him that I don´t respect him would be a complete blow to his overblown ego.
I´m so thankful for this blog, I used to be the person Nat decribes in this particular article, now I´m becoming a no-nonsense flushing lady with healthy self esteem!
Once again, I am soooo grateful for BR. Got a call from a colleague saying an older, super cute guy was looking for me and gave me his number. Turns out the dude was indeed looking for lil Miskwa but actually just wanted to cop a ride to a scientific talk the next town over. Yep, he is tall, fit, and cute, a rarity around here but he also hogged the microphone during the answer session of the talk and didnt really seem to care much about Miskwa’s life and the vibe was really strange when I dropped him at his house. The old Miskwa woulda tried to get him to hang about, join me for a glass of wine. The new version was content to just let things go, not have any hope of anything further. BR and alas, the pain of dealing with at work AC has given me some harsh but nonetheless needed clarity.
Miskwa, good for you for paying close attention to how this guy behaved out in public. It is SO important to pay attention to how people interact in the world! And especially if they’re good at presenting a polished veneer and pleasing social persona. Watch for that mask to slip, because if one is there, you will see it if you are really observant. If they are controlling, annoying, insensitive, etc. in social situations, they will be controlling, annoying and insensitive with you. People are who they are.
My favorite wisdom saying is: ‘How you do anything is how you do everything.’ So watch what they do and how they do it!
Miskwa,
Congrats on letting it go! I used to run into these situations where there were good points, but something was off. I’d assume it was me and twist myself into a pretzel trying to change.
My gut has never failed me but I’ve failed it plenty of times. If something feels off, something is off. It really is as simple as that.
Wow Miskwa your words ring so true for me having failed my gut many times over also. This is my first time joining in the conversation. I am currently dealing with what I believe is an EUM. Who am I kidding he is an EUM. We were together a couple months fresh out of his last relationship and I see now there were many flags I blatantly chose to ignore. We were together for a year and a half before he pushed me away entirely. 2 Weeks later he was a changed man and we tried again for another six months. I had enough and left. I did no contact for a year and sure enough ran into him again. We have a lot of chemistry and there we were back into it. It’s been almost a year again and everyting was great until this past month. He’s retracted again now in the past 2 months and I’m giving my head a shake. I feel so stuck. We both have children from previous relationships and the ties go beyond he and I. I am having so much trouble with this.
DD,
Please know, there is a reason it failed the first time.
It may be time to get off the roller coaster.
I’m having trouble moving on from the ex AC. He’s having a lot of problems business wise and phones me to discuss them. He sounds really depressed and I don’t want to kick him when he’s down. I know he won’t change – he doesn’t want a proper relationship, blew hot and cold, disappeared, came back, lather, rinse, repeat. He said he phones me because ‘we’re really good friends’ and how I’ve been a ‘good friend’ to him and he needs someone to talk to. I said as I’ve been relegated to one of his ‘good friends’ we should both move on. He replied that we’re closer than that and will always be friends. I find it hard to deal with, as I still have feelings for him, but know that it will never progress. It feels harsh to ignore him and keep NC. Maybe I’m too nice! What would anyone else do in these circumstances?
Shattered
Ignore him. If he wants counselling and business advice he can pay for it.
Shattered,
Exactly!!!!
Did he have a lot of consideration when he was blowing hot/cold and disappeared on you – that’s absolutely horrible! Friends, do not disappear on other friends. Why do you feel that you owe him when he has been very disrespectful to you.
Time to find a another shoulder to cry on. Remember, he wasn’t there for you!
When he says you two are “really good friends” what he actually means is that you are willing to put up with his shit. You are great at discussing HIS problems, and being a shoulder for him to lean on. Please don’t think I am being hard on you, cos I have been there too, but you are just waiting around, in the friend zone, hoping he will suddenly wake up and see WOW! Shattered is sooooo great,she was there for me when I needed her, and even though I have told her repeatedly I didn’t want a relationship, she just hung about anyway, so I guess I will make the Great Sacrifice and marry her/whatever. Not gonna happen. He is just going to use you up and spit you out. The more you tolerate,the less he will value you. Come the day of the Glorious Assclown Revolution, he will miraculously recover from his depression, and his problems, and will piss off with some hard ass woman who treats him like dirt, or will choose a new victim who sees his pathetic routine with fresh eyes. You will be left sobbing into the apple pies you were busy baking him, “‘cos they are his favourite”….. Go NC and get on with your life. There is nothing for you with this man other than second class citizenship.
Tabitha,
you tell it how it is!
The Glorious Assclown Revolution! Howling here.
I remember waiting for that worried I`ll miss it and someone else will get the ” prize” That was such a waste of time….
Nope. Two people I have NO NEED WHATSOEVER to hang around ANYMORE to see if they have changed. My sister or my mother both of whom will NEVER change! Essentially BOTH the mentally ill fruitloops of my family! They DESERVE each other! Leave them to it & ME free to function in the REAL WORLD I say! Hooray 4 me! I’ve FINALLY set myself free once & for all!!! NO MORE ABUSE FOR TEACH AT THE HANDS OF FAMILY MEMBERS! The Berlin Wall has gone up! Tresspassers WILL be shot! LOL
I broke no contact today, it didn’t make me feel better. We go to the same university. I wrote that I have not changed my position, that I still think it’s a bad idea to even be friends, but that if we run into each other in the hallways, I do not want fights or hostility so I apologize for all the things that I did wrong because I do not wish to leave on bad terms, and forgive him but still cannot accept him back into my life because I can’t allow people to treat me like he did.
Tabitha was spot on. Friends but only on their terms . When i hung about that was it , he was never there for me my so called best mate . Then of course the ice cold treatment as soon as he had met someone eles . Fresh meat . Fresh meat with a big house and settlement to set him up in the lifestyle he wants .. Never ever hang about its wasting time x
I am so guilty of this but NOW I realize this:
So many people spend so many years “waiting”
Waiting for somebody to make up their mind, to change, to become the person you want them to be.
And before you know it, years of your life have gone by and you did nothing for yourself. Just waited.
Here is the key to a happy life.
Live your own life, always.
Regardless whether you are in love or not. If they love you they will come along with you for the ride.
If they don’t….fine.
It’s not done in a selfish way. Just carry on with your dreams and plans, your hobbies and other outside relationships.
Don’t shelve anything you want to do.
In all my experiences Misty..What you’ve just written is what iv’e come to learn aswell…At least our mistakes are our own, but living our own lives is the only way and doing exactly what you want. Not want the government or friends or family want, but what you want.
natalie how do you suggest letting go? cold turkey? even if it is more uncomfortable without them than with them? both are horrible… just dont know what to do. 3+ years of a relationship based off illusion and dreams.
Hey Natalie,
This is a pretty simple one for me: life’s too short. You could gamble on someone changing but you’re more likely to find that they won’t. People don’t tend to change that readily/easily.
Instead, why not go out there and find someone that’s right for you now? I know it’s easier said than done but I’d rather be single and on the right track than in a broken relationship in the hope that something will change.
Cheers,
Tom
Wow! This is me now. I have just been following BR for a short while, and I have to say that this blog is a life-saver! I did come across it a few times earlier (when I was still pathetically googling things like “what does it mean when a guy says xyz…”). Back then I didn’t want to believe what Natalie was saying! I just wish I had come across BR much much earlier and had really let it sunk in.
I was basically in a situation that changed from being friends to sleeping together, to him soon declaring that he couldn’t offer me more than “casual stuff” (after this we didn’t have sex anymore). He then proceeded to a mostly virtual relationship, chatting with me for hours on end in fb, and really opening up about his problems, innermost fears etc. all the while pretending and claiming to be single. I then bumped into him and his girlfriend and found out that he had, in fact, been dating her for 5-6 months!He said he didn’t tell because I didn’t ask (this is not even true, I did ask just a month before if he was seeing someone and he said plainly and clearly no!). I was crushed. Crushed that my trust was so betrayed and that I was such a fool (there was much more AC behaviour as well). I am sure he was not really sure of her either, and hence decided to keep one foot in the door with me just in case. I was used as validation, an ego stroke, a shoulder to lean on/armchair therapist, and possibly as a back-up option (yes Natalie, I really agree that a “relationhip”/communication that is based on excessive texting and online chatting is a HUGE red flag!).
I have now sadly become a little obsessed about checking up on both of them online, and still after knowing what an a-hole he is I wonder why her and not me
…It is like I need the validation and the proof that he is indeed a weak and insecure EUM/AC, who uses people. I know it is not good for me. I obviously need to build my self-esteem, learn how to set boundaries and walk away when my gut says so, and seriously work on my own unavailability issues. I am hurting, but however glad of this experience as it has served as a kind of an epiphany experience. Just need to find the strength now to stop this checking up to confirm that he is still an EU d*ckweed!
To offer a narcissist/AC sympathy, compassion and trust is to paint a sign on your forehead that says PREY. They are predators, make no mistake. They are chamelions and masters of creating the facade of being whatever you may need including a wonderful friend. Feel sorry for his new gf. She will go on a roller coaster ride she won’t ever forget. You got out! You were the lucky one.
I can sympathize. I have “checked up” on my ex online and now am discovering with certainty how long the cheating was going on. It hurts and the fact that she knew, but still pursued him pisses me off. I know for a fact he will do the same to her but for some reason it doesn’t help me feel too much better. I sometimes also wonder “why her?” as she seems to be more involved with his life than I was. I think it is the newness and the excitement of the betrayal which sociopaths crave. This blog has opened my eyes to seeing the relationship for what it was and not just an illusion but I still have a lot of work to do.
Late to this post…it is a fabulous one! I am one who has “hung around” because I wanted to believe words rather than actions. But I know there were deeper issues in ME which caused me to keep denying the truth to myself. I think I too wanted to protect my “investment” by trying to avoid action when I had put so much time and effort into trying to make things work. And then there was always this voice in me that said, “perhaps it reallY IS your fault, perhaps you ARE too demanding” (for wanting a real, emotionally engaged partnership with somebody who was a real adult and had boundaries etc). And then there is/was FEAR. And I haven’t dealt with that yet. Fear that he will find somebody right away and ease himself into another emotional airbag and in doing so will just be so delighted and happy while I will be alone. In fact I have a sneaking suspicion he is doing something like this with his female therapist He says he is “really working on his issues.” with her but was telling me a few weeks ago that she was not going to do therapy anymore because she was retiring but now has changed her mind and is continuing just with him. And he is “so delighted” because she is always letting him go over time (at least 20 minutes per session). Oh, she also told him that her ex was just like him. All not “ethical” in terms of therapy as far as I am concerned but he doesn’t HAVE boundaries so doesn’t have a clue. I just register this….try not to care – what IF he has a relationship with his therapist…it would be just another part of his impulsive lack of boundaries. On the other hand it makes me sick. So WHY can’t I just write him off? Not necessarily HATE him but why can’t I write him off? Just ACCEPT what he is and stop getting engaged when things are triggered. I think there is still too much pain yet and I am still working through it.
One thing my therapist told me last week that was useful is that a very small thing (like a request to friend on FB) or an idle comment about a woman therapist, can’t be experienced as “one thing” when we have a lot of pain going back for years. And pain that has never been validated even by oneself. Instead it triggers ALL of our losses going back like a pebble skimming over the rocks. This is what is happening to me.
Espresso
What is it with these therapists circling like vultures around dying marriages? I think your husband is winding you up, whether consciously or not. He senses that he hits a nerve when he talks about getting close to other women. Even the most clueless sometimes have an intstinct about where to stick the knife. I tend to think that if there were any real possibility of this turning into a relationship he wouldn’t be talking about her at all.
That isn’t the point though. He may at some point meet someone. So might you, although you wont while you are still focussed on him.
I really wish my ex would find someone else. Then I would feel less guilty. It would be nice if she had a house too.
If hearing about all his stuff triggers you and re-ignites all the old hurts
then maybe you need to stop discussing anything personal – anything beyond the bare minimum practicalities – with him.
“I just register this….try not to care – what IF he has a relationship with his therapist…it would be just another part of his impulsive lack of boundaries. On the other hand it makes me sick.” Because the realization of just how disordered he is slaps you in the face. When mine admitted it to me I went bonkers even though we had been broken up for awhile. I think I was the maddest at him for crossing the line with his therapist in my whole relationship. I was furious at her but mainly him. It truly is sickening to realize just how low down they are and then for him to admit to me he was done playing with her and telling me how he was ignoring her emails! Ughhhh Even though he had never treated me that callously, the pain of looking at him with the rose colored glasses off was enormous! Who is this guy??? The frickin devil!!
The caption at the beginning of the entry made my day! LOL Thanks!
Thanks Mymble.
I wish I could go completely NC – I have really reduced my contact and try not to raise or listen to personal issues. I don’t talk about my personal needs and try not to listen to his. I try to stay polite but detached. I have made tons of progress since the summer. However, it doesn’t take much to ignite my pain bomb. I don’t know how to dampen down the flames because they have been simmering away for so long. Although I want to stay in touch I am not sure, in the end, whether I will be able to once we wind up the work we are involved in.
Just trying to work out if I ought to send a letter to my sister explaining things properly or just leave things as they ended (badly, making me, as usual look terrible, even though I was only reacting to her BS). I dont feel like I have the energy to write her a letter but know she will now tell family members I have said ‘terrible’ things to her. What I said wasnt pretty but was the truth as I see it & in response to her audacity at holding her life up as somehow better than mine, referring to ‘not rubbing my nose in all she has’ (meaning her marriage & kids & by even saying this she WAS trying to rub my nose in it!), then telling me she hopes I enjoy my ‘lonely life’ without her blah blah. Needless to say I let her have it & reminded her she seems to have forgotten making an admission to me on her wedding day, just prior to to the actual wedding (when I pressed her & said, are you SURE he’s the one, do you REALLY love him because it’s not to late to stop this), which was tantamount to admitting she in fact did NOT love her husband! I then reminded her she’s complained over the years that he ‘paws at her’ wanting to touch her or sexual contact & that this is most likely b.c she doesn’t & has NEVER loved this unsuspecting guy & so instead he’s trapped in a marriage where she ‘doles out’ the bare minimum of this type of contact, let alone her later admission that she ‘thinks she might have had sex addiction issues when she was younger’ & ‘used kinky sex’ to lure her husband into marrying her! I know I ought not have said this but when she crapped on abt how ‘all her friends come to her for advice’ etc I said, yes, you, would give excellent advice dear sister. How to have SEVEN children, the first FOUR by THREE different fathers to collect ever increasing welfare cheques while you live in govt subsidised public housing & then how to successfully trap yrself in a marriage to man you do not love where you are essentially now living the life of a live in prostitute, all the while, never educating yrself to set an example for yr children, or working even a single day of yr life in paid employment. Just manipulate, manipulate, manipulate.
My point was in relation to me I told her I realised she would NEVER change & it time *I* stopping hanging about expecting her to. I really cant be bothered writing a letter as it just takes up even more of my time. I really respect her hubby though & I know he will be hearing a very distorted view of what we have argued about. I’m not sure she would even admit what she told me on her wedding day & I dont wish to get involved in anything at all b.tween the two of them. He can take care of himself. I only commented on that issue when she tried to place herself ‘on high’ as if she was some sort of woman who had it all together. Fair enough if it was a real marriage but of course I know the truth & I wont have my sister putting me down in such a way.
Do ppl think I ought to write a letter to my sister abt why Ive ended my r.ship with her permantly this time or just leave it? I really am so over dealing with her. Whenever she is in my life she plunders me for info which may be helpful to her or her children getting ahead & gives nothing in return. She also secretly appears to want to sabotage me in an effort to prove herself as somehow superior. I’m totally over it. She has borderline traits & is very similar to my mother (who she spends a huge amount of time with. My mother is a seriously ill BPD with narcissistic & antisocial sub types).
I note the similarities here to our endings with AC’s. We look terrible but it’s due to their gaslighting (I wont go into the gaslighting event. Just yet another episode of cruelty from my sister…)
teachable – I don’t talk to my sister either for various reasons, she doesn’t know why but at the same time she hasn’t made any attempts to reach out to me either. She sent one happy birthday text, I engaged with that but then nothing so I can’t advise on whether you should expklain to your sister but personally I would leave it, at least until the storm subsides a little. Reading this post struck me because the theme seems to be that ACs don’t change yet my ex AC’s ex thinks that he has and I’m certain that they’re now together. At first he was just sleeping with her probably to satisfy himself that she hadn’t changed or keeping tabs so that she doesn’t move on. Anyhow, the points that are also often raised on this site is it isn’t a reflection of our self worth. really? I can’t get my head round that. I just can’t. If it really was that simple then why did my ex run off with someone else? Why did the guy I really like tell me he could never go out with someone who works where I do (implying I have nothing to offer him) and why did the ex AC admit that he didn’t want a relationship because all he’d do is feed of me? Three men in my life cannot be wrong. Sorry.
Jemma
All kinds of men will come into our lives. You “just happen” to pick the ones who aren’t over their exes, the ones who think your workplace is unsatisfactory and the self-confessed users.
And it is about your selfworth. If your selfworth was bulletproof, you’d think “Screw you!”, not “something is wrong with me”.
Three men in your life can be wrong if you’re the kind of person (as was I) who likes difficult men or drama.
Holy hell, Jemma. Three men, my ass. Sure they can be wrong. It’s easy. Here, I’ll give you an example:
Adolph Hitler, Heinrich Himmler, and Benito Mussolini.
See?
I think you might be right jemma.
Until this period of illness I’d had no contact with my sister for some yrs.
I wavered on this as being ill I became socially isolated & lonely.
She did all the same behaviours I went nc for in first place all over again though. This time I tried to talk through the issues with her, instead of just cutting her off, (I’d tried this before but now was REALLY trying) as I was hoping to salvage our r.ship.
Her manipulative game plan re my mother & her marriage ect has finally hit me this morning. I can see it very clearly. Although my mother’s mental illness renders her inappropriate to look after children, my sister moved my mother close by, so she would have a free babysitter on hand (& she admits to allowing our mother to babysit her kids. Our mother is so mentally ill mind you, our sister & I were removed.from her as small children due to threats of infanticide).
Second, my sister will wait until her hubby has paid enough of the house off that she manage the remaining amount, leave.her.hubby, &.then.go on a sole parent welfare benefit & MOVE MY MOTHER OUT OF HER CARE FACILITY & in to live with her, so she ALSO will benefit financially by receiving a carer allowance for my mother as well as most of my mother’s pension.
I don’t know why it took so long for me to join the dots as to what my sister’s gameplan has been all along.
It now makes PERFECT SENSE as to WHY my sister has at every opportunity interferred in my relationship with my mother to the point that ever since my sister moved my mother to live near her, I have become completely estranged from my mother. Prior to this, I had a reletively healthy independent relationship with my mother, who lived a distance approx 1/2 way between my sister & I. Critically my sister taking my mother to live near her, took my mother a 2 hr one way trip away from me & even further away from all other family members. For this reason I was opposed to the move at the time. I was assured though that my mother would come to visit me on occassion & that I too would be welcome to visit her. None of that eventuated however. Quite the opposite. I have ultimately been denied knowing even where my mother now resides or her phone number & my sister is in the process of trying to get her legally declared incompetent to make decisions for herself. Once this occurrs my sister will have completed her master plan & have full control of my mothers life. It’s really sick as I saw my mother recently when my grandmother was ill & she is clearly not legally incompetent.
Interestingly, none of this would have ever occurred to me if I had not become ill. I have posted before that I may lose my home. I owe only a very small amount on it & remember thinking, gee, if Mum moved in for a while, & paid half of what she’s paying that care facility to live here instead, even if it was just for a year or two until my situation stabilises, I would probably at least not have to worry about losing my home. With my work history including experience & training in working with ppl with personality disorders, I’m very well equipted to handle my mothers illness, & the bonus for my mother would be she keep half her pension in pocket each week instead of handing the lot over to the care facility.
Moreover, when I chose where to buy my home, I bought it in the area where all of my mothers mental health support services are located, which she was linked into for many years, before my sister moved her, including a specialist personality disorder clinic which is one of the best available in the public health system & where they know my mother well. I also bought a place with a 2 seperate lounge areas, &.two bathrooms, specifically so two adults can live independent lives here, & not get under each others feet.
When I got sick I mentioned that it would be mutually helpful if my mother would consider such an idea to my sister, who immediately claimed she was far too ill for me to be able to look after her. This of course is rubbish. I am home alone 24/7 with nothing else to do & well linked with local support services. You watch. In time my sister WILL leave her husband who she has used from the outset & move my mother in with her, so that she doesnt have to get a job to support herself.
I was suggesting my offer more as a temporary thing until I figure out my next move. No matter though. Now that it is all so very clear as to just how.manipulative my sister really is I’m.not going to bother with the letter. I’d rather focus on getting my own health back on track & preparing for my next stage of life. As this post says, why hang around expecting ppl to change. They wont. I meanwhile have far.better things to be concerned with which I dare say will have far more fruitful outcomes.
jemma someone elses behaviour is never a reflectiom of our self worth. WE get to decide that for ourselves. if I allowed my worth to be defined be others I would probably be dead by now. when we step away from abusive ppl & situations we start to see things more clearly. Moreover abusers want us to see ourselves as unworthy. dont do their dirty work for them. refuse to collude in the lie that you are not worthy. u are. we all are. of this I am certain.
I still need a lot of work, obviously! I hope you feel at peace with your situ soon, try not to dwell although I know it’s hard x
I wanted to update anyone who is interested. And I added more to my name because there was another Nancy. Anyway, my ‘relationship’ was with my therapist from years ago. Well, with the support of some very dear and close friends, I’ve ended this toxic ‘thing’. I can’t even call it a relationship. This is the third time in the past year that I’ve ended it. I’m determined to make it stick this time. I deleted his voicemails, txt msgs and his contact information from my phone, email, etc. I’ve blocked him with cell phone carrier and put a red banner on my cell phone that says NO CONTACT RULE. I’m finally realizing what a user he is and I was letting him use me. I’ve loaned him ten-thousand dollars and I’m just accepting that it is gone – an expensive lesson to learn, but I’m taking time to heal and learn a new ‘normal’. Everyday is a struggle, but with each passing day it’s getting better. I’ve re-connected with my daughter and grandsons and I’m spending time with my mother who is battling cancer. I am somewhat ashamed that I put my family second to this assclown who only had contempt for me. Wish me luck everyone – the future is brighter today then it’s been in a very, very long time.
Nancy
Money too:(
He really is a toad, and I am hoping for your sake that you get away from him for good.
I know what you mean about not putting your family first – when you’re involved in an AC drama everything and everyone else gets pushed aside to some extent. One of the things that has helped me more than any other is redirecting some of that energy where it belongs, to myself and my kids. They appreciate my love and care, therefore they deserve it.
Nancy USA,
Third time lucky. You are right, the future is much, much brighter without these toxic people in our lives. Congratulations and big, big hugs for you.
Good luck Nancyusa I can hear the determination in your tone. You are going to do it this time! xo
Thanks for the support! This time it ‘feels’ different. I really think that re-defining a ‘normal’ relationship is what hit me. This isn’t ‘normal’ – this is sick, toxic, poison. Would someone in a ‘normal’ relationship feel this way? Would your partner be so callous? And use your good nature to his full advantage? I think it has been like this for so long, I lost sight of what normal is. So, I’m working on that now and feeling so much better! I’ll keep everyone posted from time to time. Taking time to heal……..
Mymble – yes you are right…I have reduced the emotional content of my interactions with ex by about 98% – but sometimes stuff just leaks out of my heart/brain/damned mouth. It is partly old habits (when I was trying to make things work) and partly because some things still are so stunning in their insensitivity that I open my mouth and then I am into it. I really regret this because then I have to refocus and go through these mini-griefs again. I have been doing so much better at this though.
It makes me very unhappy whenever I fall into any type of emotional engagement with him – even at the simplest level. I try to be compassionate with myself though…there is a lot of history here to overcome.
My original wish was that we could stay in contact for a variety of reasons that would be helpful. I am locked into some kind of contact anyway because of work until the end of this year. I am beginning to explore the possibility that the walls I need to construct will never been strong enough NOT to be triggered sooner or later. I still have a lot of sh-t to work through. If I cannot handle it for ME then it will have to be NC.
Sometimes I often wonder if I qualify for these discussions given my “relationship” involved my personal trainer and my settling for a so called casual relationship expecting friendship tendencies that existed prior to our 1st encounter. I was sadly mistaken and the mind fuckery astounding once the layers have been slowly, painfully removed over time. The constant request fro sex (on his schedule) only to renig. Hot one day, cold the next. The future faking before the 1st time in August 2012. Mind you we only had sex twice…trained with from March 2012 to officially April 2013 (for context).
Constant red flags in the very beginning and carried over the time. He was a good trainer when focused so i’d excuse it saying that I had to find someone better ffirst and that I shouldn’t have to leave my gym and gym friends.
Last time we had sex after he had constantly asked or offered after an argument over my money and sessions and disrespecting me by bringing this girl on my session(who no matter what he says was not paying) without asking and basically could never admit to it, I had called his bluff. I was the aggressor. I got him to leave his job, get in my car, take me to his house and fuck him in his own bed. He wasn’t going to tease nor was he going to take my 7 yrs of celibacy in only 1 night. Boy did that backfire. My ddesire for control… basically he was excited to continue doing this when in my mind I was done. He then started talking about relationships, etc & I’m just litening. He talks @ the one ex who “had his back” and how he’d be good to me financially if I had his back, etc. I asked for clarification. He stated that i’d have to have an abortion if anything happened. I honestly replied that I couldn’t commit to that (mind you I was not considering anything further). He slowly became livid and stated that the sex was a waste (paid $50 for nextday pill), hedoesn’t know anything about me (been training w him for a year), I didn’t like him bc I wouldn’t commit to an abortion and a slew of other things and all I’m thinking is I just want to enjoy the moment that he kept insisting we have and that I simply obliged.
So basically, I take responsibility for my actions abd have finally cancelled my training officially. I kept thinking EVEN AFTER THAT ENCOUNTER that business wise we would be ok. He just started future fakin. After a small argument he still asked me for sex after he had said in the car that we’d not do it again!! I reminded him of that but all. He’d say is that he’s fine w that arrangement.
Now since it’s official, he runs from me in the gym if I’m nearby. Depending on the day, I don’t care, today just thinking about everything I get sad and slighty depressed. I don’t want to leave my gym. I was there before he got there and built up his harem. So I just don’t know. I’m in pain and obviously still do not recognize my value to even move on or make changes for my mental distress. That I , celibate until marriage candidate, gave in to this man who I thought at least a friend…can’t shake this shit. I just want to talk sometimes… I’ve got such a gym rat habit for my health now that I just refuse to change my schedule for him. ????
Girlfriend … I have been there … and with my fitness instructor. Total future faker, married (but so was I), with kids. I ignored the signs and settled for his lies and compartmentalized affections. I struggled so hard with leaving the gym. I love the gym – it’s my sanctuary! But I needed no contact (and I was embarassed and terribly hurt), so I changed my schedule and workout routine. It’s been 4 years since we ended it and now I hope I see him so he can see that I am in a much better place, with a man who knows all my secrets and still loves me with my faults and flaws. These men are out there and I KNOW you will get back to being you and a good one will find you. Don’t stop doing what you love all because of this @ssclown. You might want to change your schedule so you don’t have to see him … but only if YOU want to do that. Try not to waste any more time on this guy (and I know this is easier said than done) – he doesn’t deserve you or your energy.