If you’ve read this blog for even a short while, you’ll know that I stress the importance of having boundaries. These act as your personal electric fence defining what you’re prepared to accept in your interactions. By having boundaries you learn to recognise when to opt out or step back. A bit like traffic lights for life. They give you self-respect, limits, self-love and balance.
Boundaries give you standards. They say ‘Hey, you know what? I like/love you and everything, but I can’t and won’t put up with that!’
They say ‘Woah there! Something doesn’t feel right here! Did you just see what they did? That means something isn’t right.’
They say ‘If loving you means I can’t love me and live my life with healthy boundaries, I’ll choose me!’
Yet even when people have a lifetime of experiencing the negative consequences of running around letting people do whatever they like, I get:
I’m afraid that if I have boundaries, the person who doesn’t want to treat me with love, care, trust and respect by adhering to those boundaries will abandon me.
I’m afraid that if I don’t have boundaries, I will have nobody to date. It’s a nasty world out there full of bad people who have no respect for others. One of these people who don’t respect my boundaries could be my last chance saloon! All the decent people in the entire universe that respect boundaries are gone! In fact, even though there are relationships that demonstrate boundaries, I, I tell you, I, am the exception. And if I am going to have a relationship, I must let them do as they please. Once they love me, I’ll put my foot down.
I’m afraid that by expressing what I’m uncomfortable with that the other person will get mad at me. I’m afraid of conflict and would rather compromise myself than experience what I think are the consequences of asserting my boundaries.
I believe that people who say no are being argumentative and confrontational by stating or actioning their boundaries. I’m afraid that if I express a concern or define my boundaries that they’ll be like ‘Who the eff do you think you are?’
The truth is, I‘m afraid of having standards.
I am afraid of having to be accountable for my contribution.
I am afraid of acknowledging my needs.
I’m afraid of change.
I am afraid of conflict.
I’m scared of not being The Good Girl/The Good Guy.
I’m not convinced that boundaries apply to me because I don’t have enough confidence and self-love to believe that I am worthy of being treated in this way.
Friends and family who are used to you being a certain way have expectations of you. When you don’t meet those and you’re suddenly not as available, pliable, receptive etc., to what they want you to say or do, it rocks the boat. It doesn’t mean you cut them all off, but it may mean either getting a safe distance and/or riding it out.
Boundaries are not something you need to go out all guns blazing. You don’t need to be ‘aggressive’ and start creating conflict; you just need to get on with it.
Often you don’t need to explain. It is what it is. Do you really think that those around you don’t have boundaries? Just try crossing the line with them or trying to do things on your terms and you will see boundaries in operation, even if they are not boundaries you like or respect.
Assclowns and Unavailables, for all the dodgy, crummy behaviour that they engage in, can be credited with one thing: they’re consistent at having their boundaries, albeit in not the best of ways. When you don’t jump to their beat, they take aggressive and passive-aggressive measures to get you to toe the line. If you don’t, they cut you off and flush you out so fast your feet barely touch the ground.
You can try to go around this, above it, below it, sideways, whatever. At the end of the day, though, if you want love, care, trust, and respect in your relationships, you must conduct your life with boundaries as a natural part of your lifestyle so that you don’t end up giving oxygen and space in your life to people who are not worthy of your time.
For all of you ‘testing’ out your boundaries on dates, here’s a newsflash for you: dates, particularly assclowns and Unavailables, can sniff out pseudo boundaries that you’re trying on for size. The dodgy ones will use this as game fodder.
If you don’t believe in boundaries, just like when people are half-hearted about No Contact, you’ll undermine your own efforts. Plus, in not believing in boundaries, you’ll likely continue to attract the very people who have no respect for them because your core value system and how you feel about yourself, love, and relationships haven’t changed.
They stop fighting boundaries. They stop believing that boundaries are ‘bad things’ that cut off your options and will leave you alone with ten cats, no friends and family, and the pervasive fear that you’ll die alone.
Change your beliefs about boundaries and you will overcome your fear of them.
Get to the heart of what you believe boundaries are and what having self-respect and self-love means to you.
What do you think people believe about those who have boundaries? Is this actually true?
Reflect on your past relationships, including your interactions with family, friends, and colleagues, and anyone else with who you’ve had boundary issues. Note the long list of evidence to demonstrate the importance of having boundaries.
Those situations where you felt uncomfortable, what did you in hindsight recognise was not in your interests?
When you keep your mouth shut and go along with things, do you feel good?
When you don’t say NO and instead say YES (again), do you feel good? Or do you feel robbed and acting out of sync with your own needs?
Are there situations where you are being taken advantage of? If you are not behind the concept of having boundaries, exactly how do you think you are going to stop these situations? Are you hoping that one day they’ll have an attack of conscience and think ‘Ooh, I’ll stop abusing this person’s boundaries’?
What are you afraid will happen if you have boundaries?
Those things that you’re afraid of happening when you have boundaries, are any of those things happening now?
e.g. People often tell me that they’re afraid that they’ll be alone or that they’ll lose the relationship. But they’re alone and don’t have the relationship anyway.
If you’re considering not having boundaries, are you prepared to accept and be accountable for the consequences?
When I talk to people who have doubts as to whether they can have boundaries, these same people then remember how they feel with no boundaries. They remember that even if they feel short-term ‘joy’, they experience medium- to long-term pain. Going on past results, they have consistent evidence to demonstrate that not having boundaries doesn’t work.
Get behind the concept of having boundaries and having standards. People respect people who have limits and who have standards. They don’t think ‘They’re great because they’ll roll over and accept anything and everything!’ They think ‘Hmm, this person cannot be so great if they’re prepared to put up with XYZ. In fact, there must be something wrong with them’.
Going out on a date and having boundaries for an hour or two is not the same as having boundaries, period. If you really have boundaries and you go on a date with someone who made you uncomfortable, you won’t lose sleep over it. Why? Because you know that you were never going to work out anyway. You’ll just say ‘NEXT!’
Recognise that boundaries do filter out people, but that’s no bad thing. If you go on a date or several dates and discover that there’s red flags abounding, assess the situation. Check out my post on internal and external fear and also see my signs that they’re not interested. Acknowledge any concerns so that even if you do decide to try a few more dates, you are not going in blind and you don’t get hijacked by potential and your libido.
People who have integrity and respect will not get aggressive with you, tell you that you have issues, or completely disregard your feelings and gaslight you. Instead, they’ll hear you out, they’ll apologise, they’ll discuss. They won’t, if they want to continue being around you, keep pinging your proverbial electric fence.
Stop being afraid of having standards. Stop being afraid of having limits. Believe that you deserve genuine love, care, trust, and respect and accept that having boundaries is a fundamental part of living a healthy existence. You’re not access-all-areas. You’re not that desperate.
Your needs and feelings are valid and you have a right to say no. You have the right to say you’re uncomfortable, and you have a right to expect to be treated decently. You have a right to have standards. It’s not egotistical or aggressive. Having basic benchmarks of knowing what you will and won’t accept and what you’re uncomfortable with is self-care. We all need to do it.
Your thoughts?
Check out my ebooks the No Contact Rule and Mr Unavailable & The Fallback Girl and more in my bookshop.
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“Do you know how people overcome their fear of having boundaries? They stop fighting boundaries and believing that they are ‘bad things’ that cut off your options and will leave you alone with ten cats, no friends and family, and the pervasive fear that you’ll die alone and be found with Alsatians feasting on you.”
LOOOL, this made me so laugh! Thats exactly what I’ve been through. But suprisingly enough, I stick with my boundaries till today.
I lost 4 friends post assclown experience. And though it scared the hell out of me at first, I am better now. Suprisingly enough it opened the door for new friendships coming my way, wonderful friendships, with very nice and sensitive persons, persons who, though they could still sense vulnerability and insecurities in me, had the emotional maturity to NOT act and respong on to that.
Cause thats what I realized, only emotional immature people will cross your boundaries when you are weak in maintaining them, only these people will stabb you in your back into your weak spot, when they sensed it. They do it, to make themselves feel better. They have fun putting you down, or they throw your 10 years friendship into the mudd cause of their own insecurity and rage-control-issues.
I would never do that, ever. So I thought, why on earth do I have to put up with them anymore. Ah yes, cause they were “there” for you, when you needed them, for years…still felt off…and it IS off. Being there for you, when you needed them, and then throwing all their garbage all over you, what does that mean.
It means, you showed me your weakest point in your darkest hours, I catched you before falling, and now I am allowed to cross your boundaries, and treating you like shit, cause I know you dont have any boundaries and self respect anyway….NOT.
So now my focus is NOT only on maintaining my boundaries, but I also watch out for emotional maturity. I want friends, that dont use your weakness against you, even if your current vibe is screaming at them “victim”.
And luckily, good people are out there, they found me somehow, and I am happy to have them in my life.
Great point Jen, you know after reading Natalie’s books and posts, I started to use boundaries with my friends too, and like you I did lost few! But I don’t regret it! I have very closed two friends, who are there for me, no matter what… I used to have quantity, but now I have a quality!
happysoul,
I used to have quantity, but now I have a quality!
Wow, that is something I am realizing lately.
I love it when friends talk to me on the phone or see me in person. It has become a huge boundary for me that when friends think they can hold most of the friendship through text and email, I feel strongly towards putting that friendship on the backburner.
Of course this has been a new thing because text and email is somewhat new. People try and say this is how it is now. I say it wasn’t how it use to be and so I don’t want to accept this. I will hear other’s out but I am now more than ever looking for quality not quantity.
I have always thought having lots of friends means you are a good, well liked person. Now after having different struggles lately I have come to realize it is more important to have less good friends than a whole group of bad ones.
Hey Jen,
I think you really raise an important point. Most of the time our friend reflect the our current level of thinking. Therefore if you were not maintaining your boundaries before because you hadn’t develop the self worth to follow through then your friends would have been the perfect expression of this too.
So when your self worth and your assertiveness developed, then your friends either needed to grow with you, or they would have felt compelled to drop out of your life, which in this case many of them did.
But I can guarantee you one thing for sure and that is that more positive friends who match your current self worth are probably circulating more in your life experience. So out with the old and in with the new =)
Hot Alpha Female
Aaaaaaamen!!!!
Nat,
I didnt realize that I lacked some serious boundaries in many of interpersonal relationships, but especially with my significant others. Thus, I have decided to take a year off of dating to figure myself out and really understand what I will and will not accept from a partner and what I really value. Anyhow ,when I go out with my girlfriends, I still get approached by men who I now understand are putting lines out to see if I’ll bite, basically testing boundaries or showing me they are not what I want in a partner.
One charmign man who was throwing money around let me know straight out that he was married with kids but that his wife had an understanding…could he have my number? Not that I would have ever gone there, weak boundaries in the past or no, that was the one thing I wouldn’t do…but I realized he was doing exactly what you said: letting me know exactly where I would stand from day one, and I wondered how many women have acceepted his offer, hoping to work thier way into a meaningful relationship with him.
Another man I had been sort of flirty with before, during my weak boundary era “WBE”, suddenly emailed me via FB and let me know he had been thinking of me, and that I should visit LA from SF to see him (I had never visited him before and we hadn’t spoken for months, now I should drop everything to see him? Why didnt he just pick up the phone when he thought of me). New boundary/rule: Lame email/texts DO NOT count as a sign of authentic interest. Again, I dont think I would have gone and visited during my WBE, but I do think in the past I would have been flattered by his invitation, and thought it meant he was interested on some level, aside from just a hookup.
Another guy I met out asked me for my number after we had chatted for a while, and I asked…”Are you sure you are actually interested in me? Becuase you haven’t asked me one question about myself…all we have talked about for the last 30 minutes is you!” A guy who is just meeting me should be just as interested in who I am as I am interested in who he is. I didn’t stick around to be sure, but he had the makings of an assclown 🙂
I did in the past feel somehow boligated to interact with characters like these becasue they had shown some interested, and I suppose it is because like you said, I must have felt at some level all the good men were gone, so I should be greatful for any attention I get.
All I can say is, with gems like these, I’d rather be ignored 🙂
Cheers
Jasmine
Like you Jasmine, I’ve decided to take a year or maybe two off to sort my head out and get to know myself better. I too have been approached several times and thanks to Nat, I know the warning signs when I see them. Its been such a relieve to see myself accept ppl for what they are, not expect more of them than they’re able to give and to be able to send them on their merry way when I see that we don’t share the same values.
Like you too, I felt obligated to keep all these displays of interest alive ‘just incase’ one of them grew into a relationship. I don’t anymore and I can’t say it upsets me in any way. Closing the door allows me to focus on me and I’m happier with my life.
I do still want to meet someone and when the right person comes, I’ll be ready. In the meantime, I’d rather the trash stay out. I really don’t need it taking up space in my house or my head.
@Mandy, that is great that you are taking a time out. Spending the time to get to know yourself is so important. It’s easy to jump into a relationship to avoid being alone and dealing with ourselves. It really sounds like you are on the right path and have the a healthy attitude: being alone is better than sleeping with the enemy.
Good Luck
jasmine
Hi nat again,
I think some of us are lacking in positive core beliefs and therefore that is the explanation as to why we put up with bad behaviour at times.
I think boundaries are a separate issue. I know lots of people who have low standards and don’t state their boundaries. I also know people like me who have little problem having standards and letting people know about them through our boundaries.
Granted we have all admitted that we let our guards down at times and we get burned but that is human nature too.
I think having little or no boundaries is not the only prerequisite that can lead to bad relationships.
People with negative core beliefs can still have self respect and boundaries but they may have lack of faith at times
There is a difference between knowing and believing
I just heard this above quote from a Christmas movie and it came at the perfect time as I was writing this post. I know that I deserve better, I know what I want out of life, and I have usually known almost all of my life. I know right from wrong, and I know what makes me happy and what doesn’t. However, I do have troubles with beliving many things and that’s where I see my struggles.
When I have believed that I deserved certain things it didn’t just come to me because that is what I believed. Life can’t always be like that. People can believe they deserve a job but the competition beats them out and we all know this.
I actually came to this sight after punching in the words core beliefs. i wasn’t looking for a relationship blog but it was what I needed.
I did know that my negative core beliefs were the culprits behind my poor relationship habits and I wanted to learn to change my beliefs in order to attract healthier people.
I found the right sight and now I am working on believing these things and that is where I struggle and it could be the reason behind why I allow my boundaries to get interrupted at times.
Hi MH, I’m a little confused by your comment because in the post I say “Change your beliefs about boundaries and you will overcome your fear of them.
Get to the heart of what you believe boundaries are and what having self-respect and self-love means to you….” and I continue on in the post. At the end of the post there is also a link to beliefs workbook Get Out Of Stuck which you can also see here.
What I will say is this – I thought of myself as someone with boundaries. I spoke up with certain people, I was pretty tough at work, and yet there are areas of my life where I clearly did not have boundaries. If you say you have boundaries, like me you have to ask yourself : If I have so much self-respect and so much boundaries, why am I with someone who is busting my boundaries, after all, if I have boundaries, I wouldn’t still be here putting up with it?
I am glad you have found a site to help you!
Yes, exactly. This is what I am looking at right now. I have very solid boundaries at work (they know they cannot do X,Y,Z and get away with it) and I am respected. However, in interpersonal relationships, my boundaries are quite flimsy. Why? Why do I value myself less in a romantic relationship? I need to address this issue/belief/schism in myself. This posting was very timely. Thank you.
Hi Nat,
Sorry for the confusion of my comment, was not my intention, I will try to clarify.
Hi MH, I’m a little confused by your comment because in the post I say “Change your beliefs about boundaries and you will overcome your fear of them.
I was meaning I don’t feel afraid to have boundaries, they are not an issue for me. Like you mentioned in the other reply, you are always learning new boundaries too. I realize that after reading more comments after posting to you, that yes new boundaries do take time. Sometimes you don’t know a situation is bad. Not everything is black and white. I mentioned in one of my posts that I have stood up to everyone, including bfs or any romantic person I have been involved with.
The last guy I was involved with, it was hard to see the signs of red flags because in the beginning I wasn’t looking for anything serious. Then I learned I did go against a boundary of my own because I don’t like casual either. When I realized over time I wasn’t happy, I left. That is why I said my boundaries can be weak at times or “temporarily interrupted.”
Get to the heart of what you believe boundaries are and what having self-respect and self-love means to you….” and I continue on in the post. At the end of the post there is also a link to beliefs workbook Get Out Of Stuck which you can also see here.
I have been confused about the boundary issue and that is what my post is about. According to you, all these bad relationship habits stem from poor boundaries and I was writing to you to say the problem is I don’t think I have poor boundaries. It has to be something else that contributes to poor relationship habits besides poor boundaries, is what I was getting at. I was asking because I want to learn my lessons and my mistakes so I don’t repeat them. The more I read I realized that I have some irrational beliefs that were leading me to bad relationships, not poor boundaries. I was sort of learning to answer my own question that I had asked you. I wanted more insight so I can stay on track and keep getting healthier.
What I will say is this – I thought of myself as someone with boundaries. I spoke up with certain people, I was pretty tough at work, and yet there are areas of my life where I clearly did not have boundaries. If you say you have boundaries, like me you have to ask yourself : If I have so much self-respect and so much boundaries, why am I with someone who is busting my boundaries, after all, if I have boundaries, I wouldn’t still be here putting up with it?
I am confused by this statement because I am not putting up with anyone.I am single. I mentioned this in one of my posts that I have stuck up for myself with all types, not some types. I am not afraid to stand up to anyone but I also know there are times when to not say anything. I walked away from the last guy I was involved with before I found this website. My words to him were I love myself too much to put up with your crap. I said this statement before I found this site. So I already knew I loved myself.
I am glad you have found a site to help you!
I find this site very helpful because I learned that all my past convictions and leaving the last guy were truly confirmed. I wasn’t being too harsh or making a big deal out of things like everyone around me thought. I was challenged by many people because the last guy I was involved with didn’t seem bad to most people. I stuck with how I felt and listened to myself against, him, all my friends and family who thought I was being irrational for leaving him.
By no means was my post trying to challenge what you were saying. I was wondering if there could be other reasons behind staying in bad situations because my boundaries are pretty good. I am working on myself right now and that is not a weak area but I know I have a weak area and I was trying to brainstorm with you to see what else it could be. One of the things I love about your posts and this blog is because it gives me answers that I have been searching for, for years. I use to tell my friends that I have unhealthy patterns and that is why I am attracting and staying with the wrong men. Everyone around me thought I was crazy and they would tell me it is just bad luck. I said no something else is going on and I am going to figure it out. When I found this site it confirmed and answered a lot of my questions and confirmed many of my theories.
I am now single, living a very healthy life, and I don’t want to ever allow another unhealthy man in again, so I want to take this time to learn all I can, so that I don’t repeat history.
Thanks Nat, trust me, your insight has been so valueble to me like this site.
Yes! You are so right, Nat!
And since I start to look carefully inside me, I also find out that I have weak boundaries in romantic relationship out of my abandon fears. This took me to the realisation of the fact that I lack boundaries with myself! I do not have proper boundaries with myself in order to keep my standards. My lesson: if I believe my love&relationship standards are what works for me, than I HAVE TO KEEP THEM FIRST with out exception, leading to I HAVE TO RESPECT MY BOUNDARIES!
Thank you 🙂
Jasmine,
”Are you sure you are actually interested in me? Becuase you haven’t asked me one question about myself…all we have talked about for the last 30 minutes is you!”
LOVE THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@Jasmine “Are you sure you are actually interested in me? Becuase you haven’t asked me one question about myself…all we have talked about for the last 30 minutes is you!”
Go Jasmine! I do solemnly swear that, the next time I am in that situation, I am going to use those words. (Will I owe you any royalties? lol)
Gads, in 2.5 years it never occured to say this to my AC.
I also identify with this; “I did in the past feel somehow obligated to interact with characters like these because they had shown some intereste… I must have felt at some level all the good men were gone, so I should be greatful for any attention I get.”
Couldn’t have put it better myself!
@ wastedlove,
Please do, and don’t waste a moment 🙂 no royalties necessary.
Allison, I agree, it is funny, but I think for now, because I have decided not to date. Obviously not all men are like this, but it doesn’t exactly have me keen on starting to date again!
It took a long time to get there, but eventually, I got to the point where I’d rather be alone than settle for a crappy relationship. And then I got to the point where I’d rather be alone than settle for a mediocre relationship. And now I’m finally at the point where being alone feels damn good. That doesn’t mean I’ve given up on relationships — I’d still love to find the right person. But I won’t settle for the wrong one just to avoid being alone. I know from experience now that there are plenty of things worse than being alone.
That is something that I have always had problems with.For some reason I feel guilty about having boundaries or saying no to people.And the funiest thing is that I always admired those who can do it.The ones that can stand up for themselves but I just cant do it myself.I think it has a lot to do with how I was raised.My mother has a dominant personality that takes in consideration only her needs and treats them as if they are more important than the needs from anybody else.If I agree or not with what she is saying or how I feel about that doesnt really matter.Things have to be done her way.And when I try to question or refuse to do what she wants she will get ofended or a war breaks trough.So I guess that over the years made me afraid to speak my mind.
Nice and helpfull post and something I realy need to work on.
Anusha,
I have a mom just like yours and I guess I went the opposite as you. I do have to deal with those wars at times but it has panned through too.
I have concluded that my boundaries are in place for a reason and whether she agrees with me or not they are not up for negotiation. They are there to show my limits and therefore I don’t need others approval on my boundaries.
Hi Anusha, my mother is very similar. We haven’t spoken for several months. While it’s not ideal, neither is going toe to toe with someone who will do what they like anyway. Mine controlled the temperature of the happiness in our home with her moods. If she was great, all was good, if not, hell broke loose. Our feelings were not important as she could always trump ours with hers so we learned not to voice them for fear of ridicule or anger. I accept that she wants things to be done her way…I’m just not doing it. I’m 33, not 3, 13, or even 23. I’ve accepted that she can and will get offended or that world war 3 will break out. The world is still turning, I’m still standing and I’m getting on with my own life. I cannot base myself or my actions around one person. If I’m going to, I’ll base it around myself. I no longer seek validation from her or want her approval. While I miss her in the wider sense of her being my mother and the ‘good times’, the bad stuff comes as a package. In time it will resolve itself. For now, I’m leading a drama free life.
….”Recognise that boundaries do filter out people but that’s no bad thing”. You couldn’t be more right Nat.
I’m okay with my new boundaries. I’m just feeling fiercely protective of myself when I feel someone is crossing the line with me. I keep having to stop and be careful in how I speak to people because I don’t want to come across as rude. I guess that will calm down in time.
Thanks to you Natalie I am no longer afraid of having boundaries (I am sometimes afraid I might scoot over to Asshole Headquarters and give him a good piece of my mind for once that he has never heard before!;
But so far I have resisted all temptation as I know, really, that my silence and NC says it all for me).
I have been a little down this week as we are experiencing the most dreadul feeze and snowfall in many years and the most treacherous of driving conditions at the moment here and for some strange reason I have felt a tad hurt that the ex has not even checked in any small way that I am okay (he knows I do a 40 mile each-way commute by car every day on the worst affected route). Silly me though. I think it annoys me cause I know what I have always known, that no matter what boundary I could set, he could always go one better than me; I was always beat no matter what (for example, if I stopped talking to him for a month, he could easy beat me – he could go till we both died if need be! But all this is academic now; I do get the whole point of what I am doing with NC and boundaries; and hurt or no hurt I stand by them. I am happy now to let him “win”, so to speak and good f’n luck to him.
So I think what you say in this post (that I quote below) is worth a reminder, as at first we might tend to or desire to view setting boundaries as some kind of game to teach them a lesson, to try to “win”, to get their attention or simply to ‘wind them up’ – all of which is only playing at having boundaries and failing to recognise that it is US who need to have them – for ourselves and the nurture of our own self-respect – not something we pull out of our handbags when we are on a date to see how high they can jump (and, God fobid, if they can’t jump very high the boundary just goes back in the bag!)
“The boundaries are for you, not for them. If you’re fighting them, it’s like fighting the right to have some self-respect.”
Fearless, I love reading your wise comments. Learning vicariously …
I recently figured out that having boundaries and standards was something I desperately needed to establish. I definitely have them now, but I find that I am not willing to have a discussion with a man when things go wrong. I simply just stop talking to them. No Contact. Full blown.
One day we are talking… the third red flag goes up and then… silence. I don’t respond to email, or text. None of these jokers CALL… so it isn’t hard to just ignore them. They get the hint and eventually disappear.
My question is: am I somehow hiding by NOT stating my case clearly?
I think I am scared to say: “you did such and such, that is unacceptable to me and I don’t want to know you anymore.” On some level I fear that the man will laugh at me or be dismissive… so why bother. And on some level I feel I may come off as ridiculous for having expectations on how a man should treat me.
Am I somehow cheating myself out of real growth by not confronting a man who behaves like an ass and just breaking contact?
Person-in-Training,
My God, that what I feel!!! I cant somehow tell/write and ask AC to disappear from my life. I used to ask him: “Why me? Why don’t you find someone else?!” He used to say that he wants only me..BUT by judging his behaviour, I was his second option! I am also afraid if I send him a “goodbye” letter, he will laughs at me, and will think that I am such a Drama Queen! So for me, probably, to leave things as they are…
Person-in-Training,
It sounds like you’ve got moxie and are definitely not hiding! I applaud your guts for kicking these jerks to the curb sooner rather than later. You keep doing it exactly the same way. You say way more to these ACs with your silence than with any verbal recitation of their red-flag behaviors.
Don’t doubt yourself. If only I could have had your insight and moxie years ago.
The boundaries are for you, not for them. If you’re fighting them, it’s like fighting the right to have some self-respect……………………..Good point! The times that I have put the other persons feelings before my own or let things go because I was so caught up with them and wasn’t prepared to lose them. Looking back from a healthier place I really shouldn’ have let anyone treat me with no respect or real care for me.
I have lost friendships through putting boundaries in to place and definitely have rocked the boat with family. H0pefully new doors will open and I will attract healthier relationships Now I am more aware of my boundaries it is easier to spot people trying to cross them and to see how differently they respond to me. They are not used to it and certainly don’t like it. The perhaps thought they had a certain amount of control over me and now they don’t.
It sounds strange but because I am used men leaning to the AC sort of behaviour when I start getting to know someone who is caring and sensitive I wonder if the are too clingy and over sensitive or this is normal
but I’m not used to anyone being ‘nice’!!!
“I’m afraid that by expressing what I’m uncomfortable with that the other person will get mad at me. I’m afraid of conflict and would rather compromise myself than experience what I think are the consequences of asserting my boundaries.”
BINGO! Natalie, this is your best one. The above has always been my issue.
I know where I got it from. It was a combination of my very first boyfriend in high school being awful to me but I stayed with him because he was my excuse to get out of the house;
and
A parent who would phrase things as “optional” (“Would you like to take out the trash?” HEY, to me, that was phrased as “optional” and it wasn’t a parental ORDER!) and guess what, if you said NO, bad things happened! Kind of like @Anusha said.
The “lesson” I learned was… “in order to get love, you had to “compromise” and “comply.”
“Assclowns and Unavailable’s, for all the dodgy, crummy behaviour that they engage in, can be credited with one thing – they’re consistent at having boundaries. When you don’t jump to their beat, they take aggressive and passive aggressive measures to get you to tow the line and stay in the boundary lines. If you don’t, they cut you off and flush you out so fast your feet barely touch the ground.”
Yeppers, mine recent one did that. He sulked and bit my head off for the tiniest little thing. And if I called attention to his bad behavior, I got yelled at! Everything had to be on HIS terms. And HE is the one who cut off the “action,” not me!
A/C’s seem to have a radar for flushing out your vulnerable points and taking advantage of them. And by the way, if an A/C “appears” to be doing you a “favor” or something “cute,” it’s not about you, it’s about them. Mine would do these things that initially were kind of cute….. but later, they creeped me out, like there was “hidden agenda” behind the “cute” things he did. It wasn’t about what it appeared to be on the surface.
I could not agree more with this post. If you do not have respect for Yourself and what you will and will not do. Your “NO” is just as important as your “YES.” Then how can you ever expect others to respect and value YOU!
Yes it does possible mean you could face very uncomfortable situations. But if something is not right for you. Have the courage to stand by Your convictions.
The only time the possibility of real problems emerging is when two people who have powerful boundaries and self -respect come together. That is where being smart and aware comes in. Working to what is agreeable to both. And you usually find that when two people are strong and respectful of each other in that way. They keep to what is agreed!
And there is one thing I must stress……………..When you say “NO” mean it and keep to it. Others will try all sorts of tricks and means of emotional blackmail to get you to change. Because as soon as You say “yes” “maybe” or “all right” you done. Just look at kids and all the methods they will use to get their own way. And adults use the same methods. And if you are really honest with yourself you will know you have done the same!
Having healthy boundaries is to also have a healthy self-respect for Yourself.
And it also means to be “AUTHENTIC” real and sincere. People may not like you but they will know and respect You! And those who genuinely like You will appreciate Your honesty and sincerity and something even more.
TRUST YOU!
And Trust is such a key element in any human relationship. Trust is when we can let down those boundaries and open ourselves into a deeper Intimacy in our relationships and RESPECT with APPRECIATION still be there for each other!
And there is something else I would like to express as I hear this so often from both men and women. Blaming each other when their relationship goes bad. They are the “VICTIM” of the others wicked ways. You cannot blame the other because YOU got YOU into the relationship in the first place. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOU! Your responsible for your Choice!
So if You had healthy boundaries in what You will and will not accept would you get yourself in such positions in the first place?
Being jerked around at the end of another’s rope! Hoping in vain that the other will change?
Until the next time
Amour
A F 😉
“And there is something else I would like to express as I hear this so often from both men and women. Blaming each other when their relationship goes bad. They are the “VICTIM” of the others wicked ways. You cannot blame the other because YOU got YOU into the relationship in the first place. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOU! Your responsible for your Choice!”
You are so right!!! As long as we consider ourselves victims, and don’t acknowledge accountability in these relationships, we will continue to repeat with unhealthy people. We must be responsible for our choices!
Love your posts!
I was raised by a mother who instilled the “good girl” thing in me and while she had no boundaries with other people, she was extremely critical, controlling and emotionally distant with me. I could never do anything right & she was suspicious of me, even when I was telling the truth, so I usually lied about the truth to her. I kind of got stuck between “let ’em walk all over me” and “tip-toe around people, especially my mother, to avoid making them mad at me”. It all boils down to: don’t cause a scene, don’t make a fuss, be nice or people won’t like you and don’t stand up for yourself because people will think you are difficult and self-centered. I basically became afraid of my own shadow. In private, I would fume about being taken advantage of, I knew it wasn’t right, but somehow people always convinced me that I was making a big deal of it or overreacting and I would back down.
Once I started to write down my boundaries, it seems that I have drawn new situations to myself that required me to add new boundaries to my list. One example: A former co-worker who I haven’t seen in years sent me an email asking me to go over to his place for “a snuggy” (what the heck? I mean get a blanket or a teddy bear, dude, if your 30 and using words like that for a booty call- he’d probably want me to burp & diaper him afterwards). Normally, I would have tried to respond in humor (because humor is my way of changing the subject when I’m uncomfortable or completely caught off guard), but instead, I wrote back and told him that he made me uncomfortable and I’m no one’s “snuggy”. Well, I haven’t heard back from him at all. Good riddance!
I have also noticed that I am putting down more boundaries with my friends and seem to be losing my closest long-time ones. I see that they expect me to drop everything for their “emergencies” (like asking me to pick something up for them because it’s on sale and they can’t get to the store). Meanwhile, when I have been very down and just needed to vent about my former AC/EUM/NARC, I would get the pat answer of “just forget about him” and then the conversation would go back to them. Not only are they very selfish, but how could I expect advice/ support from people who are probably even more screwed up than me?
I have been following your blog since August, got my courage to start taking steps in September & have been rebuilding myself after Hurricane Assclown! Wish we could get an insurance settlement for the damage they do to us. I’m surprised I still have a heart & soul left. 60 Days of NC and counting!
MagicPotion
Snuggy???!!! WTF? That’s priceless, I can’t stop laughing at the thought of him wanting to be burped and diapered! You sound much too cool a lady to be anyone’s booty call or snuggy for that matter.
But I know how it can happen – my mum was exactly the same, trained me to walk on eggshells or get the sharp end of her tongue or worse. Well done for putting barriers up. I am trying to do the same with friends, family, everyone.
very helpful general life rules these, gonna print this post out as a reminder. Thanks Natalie x
lizzy: funny thing is, not being a booty call/ being with someone who’s taken are probably the only 2 boundaries I ever lived by! I don’t knowingly share a man, so that’s out of the question. I tried to be, umm, “looser”, but I never could bring myself to do it. I would just freeze up, panic and run like hell. At least all is not totally lost! But I have discovered lately that where there is an imbalance in one area (like love life), it’s going to turn the spotlight on other areas that are imbalanced. I guess you just have to get fed up enough to not care if you have no one left & start over with decent people.
@MagicPotion:
“I have also noticed that I am putting down more boundaries with my friends and seem to be losing my closest long-time ones. I see that they expect me to drop everything for their “emergencies” (like asking me to pick something up for them because it’s on sale and they can’t get to the store). Meanwhile, when I have been very down and just needed to vent about my former AC/EUM/NARC, I would get the pat answer of “just forget about him” and then the conversation would go back to them. Not only are they very selfish, but how could I expect advice/ support from people who are probably even more screwed up than me?”
I cracked up at your “snuggy” thing. Actually, a “snuggy” is that icky “coat blanket” you see on TV commercials. Anyway, the above that you wrote……… you are my twin! Apparently, like me, your friends have always perceived you as the “Strong” one. You aren’t “supposed” to have issues, you are supposed to be “there” for them. I’m having the same struggle right now. I still cannot purge the A/C out of my heart and soul even though it’s been nine months and I was the one who walked out. This blog is all I have. My friends do what you said, “just forget about him, it’s over….”
The “cut” went deep in this case…..
JJ2: I’m in the same boat. If it wasn’t for Nat & reading about everyone’s experiences, I would still be wandering around in a total fog, blaming myself. This support system is all I have & I am truly grateful for everyone here who shares their stories. I remember Nat writing somewhere about if you have a history of EUM’s , you’re bound to find a narcissist…wish I had her resources available to me a year ago. I got emotionally shredded by one. People don’t quite get what these guys do to you. If it were a “normal” break up, I’d be able to “just forget about him” alot easier. It isn’t really about getting over HIM, it’s about getting over the lies, the multiple personalities & the fantasies that he supported. The worse part is, the sex was AWFUL!…I now know what it’s like to get screwed by a corpse.
“if you have a history of EUM’s , you’re bound to find a narcissist…wish I had her resources available to me a year ago. I got emotionally shredded by one.”
I’ve had bad boyfriends before (and once in my 40’s I attempted to date a guy who only communicated by email…..that was weird…), but I’ve never had a narcissist before. A NON-FEELING narcissist. I swear, the guy feels nothing! Like Natalie replied to me in an earlier post, HE FAKED IT ALL! His “lies” were never…. major….. it’s not like he said, “I’m going to A” and it was really B…… he basically told minor lies (and spoke in “high level BS” or a “drip feed” thing….) to get whatever he needed at the moment. Then later he would contradict himself and get angry at me for “Dwelling” on things he said! I know Natalie says it’s not our job to warn other women, but I would really like to! I don’t want another woman to sink down a deep abyss and not know up from down!
@Magic Potion
I read your post with my mouth just wide open—I could have written the same thing. Same mother, same “good girl” problem, same “snuggle” co-worker, same friends. How did I get to be 40 years old and still worried about not stepping on people’s tails. Seems kind stupid since they don’t seem to be concerned with stepping on mine! It’s helpful to know we’re aren’t the only ones with these struggles. Thanks for your post. Hope I can muster the same response next time I get a text like that.
He asked for a “snuggy”? WTF?
He needs to go buy one from a local department store. It’ll give him the same warm & fuzzy feelings he’s looking for. He doesn’t need to be breastfed either. Giving him a bottle is a bonus.
Jackass. :-/
I loveeeee this post!!! Why couldn’t I have found this site sooner?!?!
Nat,
Something that has been nagging at me for awhile now is that I don’t think I am a candidate for someone that has little or no boundaries
I say this because I have stood up for myself against bosses, friends, parents, boyfriends, fwb and strangers etc.
I have told bosses, friends, lovers that I won’t stand for this or that.
I have had bosses tell me that I handled them perfect by asserting myself. I have had bosses tell me when I walked away from them yelling at me I was indicating that their behaviour was abusive and they didn’t like that. I said your behaviour was abusive and there was no way to talk to you except walk away.
I relate to the women on here and I have known for years that I am accepting bad treatment one way or the other but it is not with my boundaries or lack there of. I can’t put my finger on it so I thought I would write this to you to get an explanation so I can fix this issue.
I have had friends say they were so proud of me for not saying something to the person. Everyone knows I am the person that is going to take a stand.
I have gone to bat for my whole staff team against the boss and I wasn’t even in charge at the time.
I am the kind of person that uses tact, and tries to say my point nicely not aggressivly. I use assertiveness. Last year my coworkers told me to stop bringing up points they wanted the meeting to end. I don’t want to be a difficult person and I want to respect other’s wishes too, so I stopped right away.
Whenever I have backed down, it has been out of respect to other’s not because I don’t have self respect. I feel they deserve being heard too.
I had a party once and a friend of mine spent her whole night trying to tell my mothers dog what to do. My cousin was watching and I was too and I had friends stop me from talking to my friend at the party. I said I will respect that for now but I am going to confront the person tomorrow. I did, I told them it is my mother’s dog, she is a vistor and it is not up to her to train my families’ dog , just like I can’t go into other people’s homes and train their kids. I was very nice and even though this post doesn’t do me justice it was a good conversation and she shared her points. Then a mutual friend told me she vented to them that she was right and I was wrong. I expected that and I said it isn’t about wrong or right. I don’t go into her home and train her dogs, or her nieces and nephews and when you are in my home it is not acceptable especially to train my parents animals, it is not even my animals.
I have learned more times then not that people don’t change when you assert yourself and that is probably what has detered me against things , thinking what is the use.
What I am getting at is my experiences have been that, I have always had to walk away from things or I have had to assert myself and deal with arguements with people. In most cases it hasn’t stop me. I am getting to the point where I am telling myself to say less to people and walk away more.
One thing I learned in my assertive course which was part of my school program was that you always have to be prepared for defences and arguments from other’s when you assert yourself and it has been totally true.
I just learned that I do suffer from women who think and talk too much. I will be honest I didn’t know better when my ex took the time to explain his behaviour or told me this is the way he is. That being said I thought because he took the time unlike my abusive ex that things were on the right track. I let things go because I was learning. When I kept going back to the issue I would learn that there is something not right so I have to figure out a solution.
I left my situation and I am in the process of putting distance in certain friendships. Right now my boundaries are being laid out as we speak.
Is there another option because I believe in boundaries, but it is true I have attracted the wrong people.
I have to say though lately I have been talking to really nice people and one person told me she doesn’t believe in boundaries amongst friends and I have told her I do its important.
I think and you can correct me on this my problem has stemmed from believing that because I have good values that a person should change their values to be more like me. However, I let my values change for the worst for them which yes I broke my own boundary. I feel like I am a girl that allows myself to be interrupted at times like that movie “girl interrupted”
I have learned from your posts to reinstate my boundaries. They are there I told my eum and others for a long time and then I broke a boundary temporarily and then put it back into place. I was physically abused by boyfriends in the past when i have put boundaries in place. I use to get prepared when I put my boundaries in place, for others to hit me and was always suprised when I didn’t get hit. I wondered at times if this is why I get interrupted and go against my own boundary.
If you see that I am still exhibiting the usual behaviours of a person of no or little boundaries please explain? or if there is a third category called temporary boundary crosser or something.
I definately apply the fact that I didn’t understand that people that have different values are not a match for me and that I can’t change them. I have to accept them and move on to find someone who shares the same values. I just learned this from you.
A lot of my mistakes were learning experiences, things I didn’t understand were taking place, so I didn’t know how to handle the situations not really a lack of boundaries.
I am not trying to excuse myself from anything I am trying to fix what is broken but for me learning to stand up for myself is very ingraind in me. Granted it is something I try to do the right way and would seek advice on it too, but so many times I just know what to say, or I think I do.
Maybe I have weak boundaries as in i am unsure of myself because of the consequences. I did relate to to wanting to examine my underlying beliefs behind my boundaries.
Friends and family who are used to you being a certain way have expectations of you. When you don’t meet those and you’re suddenly not as available, pliable, receptive etc to what they want you to say or do, it rocks the boat. It doesn’t mean you cut them all off but it may mean either getting a safe distance and/or riding it out.
I do see about how I have been a certain way with friends and now when I am taking certain stands about things they are resisting.
I spend more time alone then I ever have but I have been down this road when I have had enough I back away from most people.
After learning a whole lot of information from you I am even more sensitive to boundaries and get set off quickly by others and so instead of jumping right away I take my time to think before reacting because I want to jump sometimes and that could serve to be very irrational.
Something Natalie said in an earlier post:
“It’s always good to sanity check why something is a boundary – Would you be with a guy who treated you well, love, cared, trusted, and respected you and subscribed to the Playboy Channel? Or would you be with a guy who doesn’t watch the Playboy Channel but doesn’t act with love, care, trust, and respect towards you?”
The first one would be a tough choice. The guy cares about me, but I don’t want a guy to have the Playboy Channel. Tough call!
The second one, the Playboy Channel isn’t even an issue.
In either case – Playboy Channel – dealbreaker! Totally against it – don’t want it in my life or anyone who has it in theirs.
Thank you Natalie, this post was very helpful. : )
Nat,
I wanted to say a person can learn and implement new boundaries. I have learn new boundaries from you.
I also have learned from you that my convictions and boundaries were in place for a reason. In other words I have learn to believe more in my boundaries after finding this post. Since so many people in society have been afraid of boundaries they have tried to keep me from being so strong on mine which did make me questioned mine.
I have heard over the years people tell me I am one of the most healthy people they know, or self confident or strong. This made me feel over the years that I am different from many people. It made think that is why some try to discourage me from speaking up.
thanks Nat for that.
MH
None of my closest friends or my family would say that I have poor boundaries. I’ve closed sales, dealt with tricky customers, asked for payrises, confronted bosses and colleagues, stood up to poor customer service but my romantic life has been a train wreck. When I tell my friends I am seeing a counsellor they are frankly puzzled.
So, yeah, it is possible to have boundaries in one part of your life and not the other. I think the lack really shows up romantically. After all, sales, customers, colleagues and bosses aren’t deeply personal. You can have lots of friends, if one or two are a bit dodgy it doesn’t really matter. If your family are awful they are still your family, they’re unlikely to dump you. Hate your job? Get a new one. But boyfriends? Someone you have sex with? Whole different ballgame.
Mind you, I’ve recently realised that in times of conflict at work I can feel very jumpy and defensive. I don’t usually act it out but I need to work on that.
MH
oops, to clarify, i’m responsing to your earlier post on “temporary” boundary crossing.
Grace,
I mentioned that I stand up to lovers, and boyfriends. I have ended up in a women’s shelter after standing up to boyfriend, this was many years ago. I have still stood up to lovers after this. I am not afraid of boundaries.
Sometimes I don’t always know when to implement them and I have to think about it. I think that is and will always be with anyone who has healthy boundaries. I don’t have any people that I don’t stand up to in my life. I do have to use caution with certain people. I have learned it is better to completely walk away from someone who is abusive, do not challenge them. Walking away is a boundary. I have learned with bosses sometimes it is best to say nothing and even that is a boundary because you can’t always just go out and get a new job. I won’t put up with abuse from a boss, they can’t yell at me, I won’t stand for it.
I call my friends on their lies, even white lies. I told a guy once who I was just getting to know when he didn’t tell a male mutual friend who we met through that I was over. He said he will get mad and jealous and will be angry I didn’t invite him over. I said, ” Just so you know I won’t hide it, if he asks me what I did last night, I will say I was with you hanging out. I won’t lie for you for anything so please don’t ever do it again. He never hid anything again and came clean to the friend, he said thank you for letting me know where I stand.
I am not perfect, and I am learning about new boundaries as well. Sometimes it takes bad experiences to learn to implement a boundary. Other times, you realize wait a minute that is a boundary I have, why did I let that person get away with that and the answer is because we don’t always want to go to war. Boundaries usually face resistance, no matter how much the person cares for you. I learned this in my assertive course and from my experiences.
When implementing a boundary
Say your point, wait for the defence
reflect on their point, wait for their response
Say your exact point again
Repeat
Some boundaries involved simply walking away for good.
Hi MH. Life is an ongoing journey. I’m still implementing new boundaries whether it’s with work, family, or just general stuff. It’s not anything mega, but more conscious efforts to put myself in positive situations around positive people and also avoid any type of insanity – doing the same thing and expecting different results.
Many people before I got wise about myself, complimented me on my strength, confidence etc. This was funny really because what I felt within was a very different story and my love life certainly did not reflect what these people described me as. For me, I learned I had pseudo boundaries – I had them when I thought I would meet the least resistance or when I didn’t care greatly about how they would react. Otherwise, it was a very different story.
This helps answer my earlier question/post. For me, I think I need to flip the switch in my romantic life — as you write, Natalie, to care more about myself first, to put myself first in romantic relationships–even when I care a lot/have a lot invested. To not be afraid to do that or think I am somehow not deserving. The switch has always defaulted to the other person, first. I must work on changing that, when I’m in a relationship with someone I care about. I must choose me first.
Hi Nat,
Maybe I was getting healthier or putting things into perspective towards the end of my last involement.
I was actually putting boundaries all throughout the involvement mind you.
I too call my last situation my epiphany relationship or involvement since we were not in a relationship.
However, what I learned from you and I was trying to make this point yesterday is that since I discovered from you and this blog that I suffer from women who think and talk too much, I was implementing boundaries but by not walking away a lot sooner, I was taking no action with certain boundaries that called simply for walking away. I was asking the information but I didn’t know what to do with the information. This was all about learning because like you say life is a journey.
Ever since I read about woman who think and talk too much, I have been applying this to my life as best I can with slips ups of course.
For example many of my friends probably all of them suffer from this as well and they keep telling me that they have to get the last word in. I explained this theory and it kept one friend from over explaining it to a guy that just wasn’t worth her time. She thanked me later and said I am glad you talked me out of making a fool out of myself.
I have now walked away from some situations now instead of trying to explain to people that are a waste of time. I talk to those that are worth my time and are going to hear me out. I do have to say it is so easy to want to explain yourself.
I also know all these new habits we are learning from you take time to implement and we do take steps backwards into old habits because that is part of being human. As well as, at times we will relapsed because we have been doing the old habits a lot longer than the new ones. It all takes time but as long as we try and learn from our mistakes, we should be okay.
These articles have helped me learn about boundaries so very much! In my 2o’s and into my 30’s I had no boundaries, now that I am 38 I am learning all about them and that it is okay to say NO and that NO isn’t a dirty word!
THANK YOU for helping me find my self respect. Just coming out of an emotionally abusive marriage and now learning that my lack of boundaries was affecting my friendships and relationships with family as well.
I have found my boundaries in my friendships and also with family. I may have shocked a so called friend and shocked 2 family members, but I have found my backbone and my self respect. I’m a doormat no more!
Thank you Natalie for all of your help!
Another spot-on post, Natalie. It all comes down to self-respect and self-love. Once I started focusing on me and realizing that I had a right to be happy, respected and cared for, his crap looked like exactly what it was – crap. I was so afraid of losing the relationship, I lost myself. I wanted to believe in his fundamental decency – that if he was a good person and if he cared for me, he would see he was hurting me and stop. I expected this from a narcissist! What a fool I was. Having boundaries doesn’t mean expecting them to respect the boundaries and protect them, it means I have to do it. I have to believe in myself and my worth enough to say – “you know what, I hate the way you are treating me and if it doesn’t stop, I’m leaving” and then actually mean it.
No more false threats, in life,work or relationships. I love and care for myself enough now to say I am uncomfortable with something. “Can we talk about it and find a solution everyone can live with?” Good people will say yes and try and work with you. Bad people will tell you that you are being selfish, unreasonable and difficult. It’s called projection. They project onto you what they cannot stand about themselves. They will protect their boundaries by telling you that you are wrong for wanting respect too. What you wrote about ACs having very strong boundaries is absolutely true. For all his other faults, I have to respect that the AC has a personal electric fence that is impenetrable.
I can now say from personal experience that when I have self respect and self-care, good people are attracted to me and the bad people run like they are on fire. I have swapped my AC for many good and caring friends, who genuinely have my best interests at heart and for whom I care a great deal, safely and without fear. I have learned to ask for what I need without playing the victim or expecting others to meet my needs. I am responsible for meeting my needs. If I cannot get what I need in a particular situation, be it a relationship, friendship, family or work, it is up to me to decide what action to take. If it is an important boundary and issue, I need to be willing to take real action, walk away or protect myself. It isn’t being difficult or not “the good girl”. It means I am no longer a doormat, desperately hoping that if I just accept whatever garbage someone wants to give me, they will love and care for me. I will love and care for me and they can keep their garbage.
Beautiful Debra,I realy liked what you wrote 🙂
I always look forward to your comments Debra. “Can we talk about it and find a solution everyone can live with?” – Amen! I have no time for people who only want to do things on their terms. Having healthy boundaries doesn’t mean living life aggressively forcing people to do things on your terms – assclowns do this type of stuff. I am not going to feel bad for saying I am uncomfortable. I also loved “it is up to me to decide what action to take. If it is an important boundary and issue, I need to be willing to take real action, walk away or protect myself.” Absolutely. It’s opening your eyes to the situation rather than burying your head in the sand. Part of the reason why I was able to have my mum in my life up until a few months ago, is that I had protective gear on. I knew the pitfalls and managed myself around them. I’ve now backed away.
Keep being you! So proud of all your progress!
Dear Natalie-
Thank you for your kind words. I have learned so much from this site, it astounds me. This morning, I reflected back on the past months and realized how things had changed. In June, when the AC and I ended the relationship and the real troubles at work began, I was desperate to maintain him in my life. He fit the pattern I had been playing out for years. I felt badly about myself and was desperate for someone to care about me. I thought if I wore my pain and loneliness for him to see, he would love me the way I couldn’t love myself. Instead, my lack of boundaries and self-respect paved the way for him to come in, take what he wanted, give nothing in return and, when I did begin to stand up for myself and demand decent treatment, I was kicked to the kerb for expecting too much of him. I needed him to validate me. I have made others too responsible for my happiness and my unhappiness. My lesson this week is in seeing how I cannot just expect others to fix what I can only fix for myself – how I feel about me. I was so needy, I felt the crumbs I was getting was better than the nothing that came before. I now see that I deserve real respect, love and care and that I can give it in return. It does not only have to come from a romantic relationship, it can come from friends and colleagues and others who support you without expecting you to destroy yourself in return. I decide who I let in, trust and care for. I cannot demand that they care about me, just because I care about them. I can only take off the rose coloured glasses, accept that they may not care for me and choose to act in ways that protect myself if they do not. I have also learned that, if someone does not care for me, it does not mean that I am unlovable, broken or damaged. Not everyone on the planet is good or caring or truly empathic. It is up to me to see if someone is behaving well towards me and to cut them off if they consistently do not.
I was actually able to trust my gut all along, but for some reason I chose not to. Even very early on, when the AC was still on his good behaviour, he came into my office one day, gave me a quick grope, got his ego stroke in return and disappeared. As he left, I had the absolute clear thought that there was nothing “real” on offer here. That he was just filling time with me and that the relationship was not growing or giving me what I needed. I ignored the thought, to my detriment. Never again.
The truth is, we know what we need to know in these relationships. We can feel it. We just have to trust ourselves enough to believe AND act on it, in our own best interests. That’s self-respect. That’s having healthy boundaries.
Thank you, Natalie, for putting names to ideas we already know – no contact, boundaries, assclowns – and for giving us all a voice and a safe place to come and learn.
@Debra
“The truth is, we know what we need to know in these relationships. We can feel it. We just have to trust ourselves enough to believe AND act on it, in our own best interests. That’s self-respect. That’s having healthy boundaries.”
Yes!! So true. We do feel it (and see it; we just look the other way and hope they will one day prove to us how wrong we were about them. They can’t do that, for obvious reasons!).
@debra- SO TRUE!!! I knew all along that something wasn’t right and that he was just using me but I kept thinking he wouldn’t hurt me because I wouldn’t hurt him. I believed that he thought like I thought and would do the right thing. I have learned so much from this site as well, including the notion that I cannot make others responsible for protecting my heart. I need to do that and that’s what boundaries are all about. I let others decide my worth, control my happiness. If my heart got broken, it was because HE broke it, not because I allowed myself to get hurt, trusted where I shouldn’t have or let a dodgy person into my life. I am getting the boundary thing big time now. It not about trusting others not to hurt you, its about self-protection. If something doesn’t feel right, that’s all I need to know. That’s the signal to put up the walls and keep them up. That’s the sign that its time to retreat, not get closer. Thanks for the wake up call.
Thank you, Natalie.
at the moment, a colleague at work is giving me the silent treatment because i asked him to brush his teeth in the bathroom and not in the kitchen sink. i said it nicely too!! anyway, the old me would be feeling guilty for saying it and would probably have now asked him what’s wrong, etc. but no, the new me, says: he is ignoring me, he is being immature. i did nothinng wrong. sod him. i mean, really its disgusting to brush your teeth in a kitchen sink! i said it to him last friday. and we were pally enough with each other. it hurts my feelings but i’m not gonig to bow down to him. …
Jaysus Audrey, that is so revolting! I felt heavish here as I read it! That is so frigging inappropriate and the fecking cheek of him to malice you. Just make sure you bleach the sink 😉 My bro worked with someone who would come into his office at lunchtime and eat with his fingers while belching and farting. The guy never, ever said pardon and one day my bro let him have it with both barrels. This same guy tried to get him to share a hotel room, as in same bed, to cut costs and my bro point blank refused and ended up sleeping in the bath. No manners, no respect for people’s personal space. Your colleague’s pride is hurt but he knows you’re right. It’s a hygiene issue. Ugh!
If there is one thing I’ve learned from six months of counselling is that we will say/think/believe/justify almost anything to stay in our comfort zone. And when I say comfort zone it’s not a cuddly safe place, it can be a place of poor boudaries and indecision. Even though it’s not enjoyable, we prefer to stay there because it’s what we know. We could have been there for decades. We may even believe that we do have high standards. It has nothing to do with intelligence and self awareness. I am struck by the eloquence of the women here BUT sometimes with the overthinking and analysing we just end up rationalising our poor decisions as being to our benefit.
It’s important to look at the results of our romantic encounters and ask “What does this tell me about myself and what would an outsider say?”
A to the men Grace! Amen, amen, amen!
I have, what I call… a “barrier to boundaries.” I don’t immediately “connect” to my feelings. I hate this. It creates problems in trying to establish boundaries. What happens is….. someone makes, what appears on the surface to be…. an “innocent” comment. My gut IMMEDIATELY wrenches. I know I’m feeling…. “something” but I cannot “define” what it is. It takes me 48 hours to figure out what I’m “reacting” to. By then, the “offender” has forgotten it. However, what I’m finding out is….. when that happens to me, it usually means the “offender” has “hidden agenda” behind the “innocent” comment.
Example (my mom is the queen of “hidden agenda,” it’s so hidden she denies it!): “How much vacation time do you get at work?” Ok, seems like a perfectly innocent question. But my gut wrenched! I refused to answer the question, but I didn’t know why I was reacting. 48 hours later, I realized it. The “hidden agenda” is: “How much time do you OWE me/can I COERCE/GUILT TRIP you into spending with me?”
I have the same problem with guys. I try to tell them that sometimes it takes me 48 hours to figure out something upset me, but they all go back to the “tell me about it at the time it happens, not 48 hours later when I don’t remember it.” Trouble is…. I CAN’T! My gut reacts, but I don’t know what I’m reacting to so I cannot mention it at the time it happens.
Anyone else have this problem? It’s definitely a “barrier to boundaries.”
Hi JJ2,
I say the guys that are telling you to tell them at the time, are still busting your boundaries.
I had a friend sort of say that. She would say she doesn’t remember things and that I should tell her right away. The other day I did and she had another excuse. I told her straight out, I said “you told me to talk to you at the time and I am so please deal with it.” She dealt with the issue right there and now the issue is solved.
What I have concluded from this is that people who tend to lie but not lies you can prove seem to be the ones that “conveniently forget,” like your guys you have been involved with have. This to me and I could be wrong makes me think these people, like my friend, are the ones that have tendencies to lie. It seems that the honest people I confront even if it is a month from the incident own up to the action.
You need time to think, and maybe for you it is 48 hours. I have taken an assertive course and they say it is better to think before you speak or make a plan of action.
You could have a fear of boundaries and therefore you have a 2 day slow reactionary time but I don’t know much about this so I would not be able to advise.
I would in your case take peoples advise that are telling you to tell them right away as them crossing your boundary again.
If someone said that to me my response would be, “I needed some thinking time and my boundaries are for me to decide when and how I will present them not your time table.” In some cases if I see repeat behaviour, I will put temporary distance between us. If the situation warrants it like a romantic situation, I would walk away permenantly.
So really it is your gut against their words. I actually told another friend the other day that. I said sorry “I don’t buy your story and she said it is true,” I said “my gut says something else and so I am going to go with that.” “In future just tell me you are coming at a certain time and no more explanations and we can avoid worrying if the story is true or not.” She said “fair enough”, I will try I may slip because I am use to explaining myself,” and I said “fair enough.”
Maybe the lack of connection to your feelings right away is the emotional disconnection that Nat explains. Us being emotionally unavailable thus why we attract EUM’s or stay with them.
As well it could be part of the thinking process.
Every person has to think things through on issues we don’t come with computer brains where someone selects a key and we respond. We are given the luxury to think and process.
Sorry, like I said I have no information on this barrier boundary theory.
Maybe you are just uncomfortable and it is going to take time to get comfortable stating your boundaries. As well as, people need to know their personal rights and I think this stops people from knowing when to speak up not because they are weak.
Sometimes I am slow to react simply because I need to ask myself am I making a big deal out of nothing or is this an important issue. Many boundaries need to be thought through first, before we set a boundary. If a boundary is very strong in us and someone clearly crosses it at that moment that’s when we stand up right away usually. That might take time if you are not use to it.
One time my boss yelled at me for no reason and I stood up for myself right away because I have no tollerance for people who yell at me.
I think what Nat is trying to get us all to understand is that the more we practice our boundaries, and think about them the more we will stand up for ourselves, and the less crap we will put up with. We need to face our fears that keep us from stating our boundaries.
Yours, honestly from what you wrote could be that you unsure of what rights you have, so maybe looking into personal rights on the net could be where you begin. I am not saying you have been abused but one place to check is on the net and type in abuse cycle and personal rights to get that information.
Your barrier could simply be a person who is not familiar with setting boundaries.
MH
Wow, for saying you don’t know what it is, you said a LOT! Some good helpful information. Thank you!
My recent A/C was very emotionally disconnected from himself. I don’t think he realized it. I know I have the “disconnect,” and I’m trying to work on it. However, my mom “traps” me all the time with her “innocent” questions that have “hidden agenda” to them. Sometimes I blurt out the answer and then realize I’ve been “had” again…… My mom should have worked for the CIA……
My Mother was always very warm and good to me as a child. My Dad mostly was too. So why have I let men treat me like complete garbage (and some women friends too). My Father always told me to never let anyone tell me I couldn’t do something and always stand up for myself. My Mom was supportive. Problem was, my Dad treated my Mom like crap. He serial cheated, he lied and twisted and turned everything around to make her out as crazy, in front of the kids of course. I watched my Mom try to confront him, but he brought her to her knees, each time. My Dad was well liked by everyone, but was a con man of sorts. I have always stood up for myself and have overcome odds in situations that some would have given up. I was a single Mom by 17 years old, went on to put myself through college and had a degree and great paying career by 20 years old, while raising an infant by myself. I had obstacles, but just charged over them. So, how in the heck did I let an AC bring me to my knees? What happened to me? I am now 42 and have learned many lessons in life, but this one baffles me. As others have commented here, having boundaries in other areas of your life but when it comes to romantic relationships, laying down like a doormat, or as Nat put it, having pseudo boundaries. My parents dysfunctional relationship was my model. I watched my Mom hang in there, because they were “together”. I also watched her shut down and become silent when he would start calling her crazy. I feel like a walking contradiction. Smart and independent, but so easily a doormat when it comes to being loved.
Amen to that. I have my standards. Its my life and I choose how to live it and how I react to it. I have also lost friends because of my new found boundaries but I have also gained the respect of those that have tested them – met consequences for it – and back peddled. Well THAT doesn’t work anymore. As for the “good girl training” I received – that has been eliminated. Especially now. Even my family treats me differently. I am no longer the little sister that could – I am the woman I am. My mother passed Tuesday after a 5 day fight to stay. It was painful to watch but that time also gave me time to resolve my issues with her. We parted on good terms and I feel nothing but love for her now. She did the best she could with what she knew – I can’t fault her for that. She gave me strength and that was the greatest gift she could have ever given me. In every painful lesson there is a gift – its up to you to find it.
((((hugs)))) I’m sorry for your loss Movedup and thank you for an inspiring and empowering comment. You are one of my readers who also has been around for a while and has had impressive journey of self-growth. You are indeed strong. Take care xx
@Movedup
So sorry too, for your loss. Sincere condolences.
All the best. F.
My thoughts and prayers are with you.
Thanks NML! Enjoyed reading this, it felt…nourishing (-:
I’ve been reflecting on boundaries lately in all aspects of my life – or, I really just think of it as living with integrity. But I’ve realized that the more you have boundaries, the better YOU feel and are able to minimize BS and pain, frustration, etc…but it also allows everyone around you to feel better, about themselves and maintain their standards, if they have them or (yours, at least) if they don’t – and minimize drama. It’s very apparent in parent/child relationships (spoiled children) – or in childhood relationships because they’re exaggerated…and before we’ve fully developed our value system. Probably most of us remember the childhood friend (or even the parent(s)) that allowed us to behave as we pleased, with no repercussions. Our behavior towards them, much of the time bordered on abuse! While it felt good to do and get as we pleased, it was short-lived and most of us knew deep down that it was wrong and we may have even felt out of control (of ourselves) a lot of the time. We probably felt guilty or bad about ourselves, and knew that around that person, our worst self emerged because it was tolerated. It doesn’t necessarily feel good to always get what you want, and it definitely doesn’t nourish your higher self…the you that you want to be! Our relationships as adults are not that extreme, but the same at the very core, if we haven’t fully grown and established standards for our own behavior and that of others. And that takes time.
My boundaries were recently tested by someone. I maintained them. But I suffered, briefly, from self-doubt and pain about why this person would think they could try and test them. While pondering the many people in my life who have never even put a toe on that same boundary, I realized how grateful I am for those people and their respect for themselves and for me. They make me feel good about me because they feel good about and respect themselves. We’re not wrestling with each other in the muck – making one the ‘victim’ one the ‘bad guy’ and wash, rinse, repeat. When lines are drawn and enforced and/or not crossed or tested in the first place, there’s no problem – no drama – and everyone wins. When you enforce your boundaries, you facilitate others to be their best selves. If someone is constantly testing and/or assaulting your boundaries, it is offensive and you really are better off without them in your life. Let them move on, with a brief moment of your sympathy.
Well, of course, this is written for me personally 🙂
I’ve never had many boundaries. Not on dates, not with girlfriends, workmates etc. I really thought people would like me MORE and stick with me if I were easy-going, undemanding, amenable, flexible, tolerant and helpful.
I wanted to be the MOST of all those things, thinking it would earn me a place in people’s hearts. Looking back, all it actually earns you is the label of doormat.
Thanks to Natalie, I’m just starting to do things differently, starting off gently by learning to lay out and announce my boundaries while online dating and during dates. And I’m find that the men I am chatting to online and dating, far from walking away when I’m strict, which I’d always feared, often apologise for acting like ACs and ask if we can “start again” on a new footing. They they act with more respect. And the ones that cut contact, as Nat says, aren’t the kind of blokes we want, anyway, so it acts as a wonderful sort of “sieve” for discarding the wrong types, leaving us with those who accept our boundaries.
Well done Nat, the right blog JUST when I needed it! I am implementing your advice daily and will do so for the rest of my life.
I thank you for this blog from the bottom of my heart!
As ever your posts are spot on. I’ve had a weird situation where having gone through a boundary free relationship where I had no power at all, when I found myself in similar I actually fought it. In that I felt uncomfortable, tried to have boundaries and in a way successfully did (once I’d stupidly slept with him once I didn’t do so again, however hard he booty called). But I do for some insane reason find it hard and it’s a constant struggle not to go back on that – even though I know, and FEEL at a gut level it would be a huge awful hideous mistake of death :/
Thanks for the reminder. :)))))))) xxx
This really interested me Nat I have been thinking about my boundaries and core values in the last month since going NC with the EUM. At first I thought I had little boundaries and that explained why I felt stupid over letting the EUM have a barely there on his terms. But the more I think about it, I DO have boundaries and values and always have done (probably just haven’t thought about it too much). So I made a list of my boundaries and beliefs that I have always had and they all seem pretty reasonable and consistent. I think alot of these bastards know how to curveball us, especially if we are a bit lonely or whatever (I am a single parent so don’t get out to meet many men). I guess I just feel a bit stupid for not looking at the big picture and listening to what he was saying. I have recently become friends with a guy and we spend alot of time talking. Yes I’m now listening!! I think my BS radar is much more tuned in these days and hoping it stays on high alert forever.
I know this won’t be popular but why is it everytime there is a discussion on boundaries “Playboy” is brought up and why does that seem to always be the dealbreaker. Let’s face it ladies men like to look, not going to change that.
I just watched VS’s annual special the other night as I’m sure millions of men did too and we all know they weren’t watching it for the underwear. And while its stretching it a bit to compare it to Playboy would you kick your guy out if he wanted to watch that too.
I know all the standard lines why alot of women hate porn but the truth be told I think it has more to do with how we look at ourselves in comparrison to those women than the “moral” aspect of it.
MaryC
Not for me it’s not, I don’t compare myself to them at all. I AM envious of ballet dancers (for what they can do, not what they look like) yes. But not porn “stars”. If I have any opinion of them at all, I feel sorry for them. I would HATE it if my nieces ended up in porn!
I haven’t watched the Playboy channel; it seems harmless to me but it’s down to every woman to set her own boundaries. It may be over the top to say he can never look at another naked woman again but, hey, if that rocks your boat …
@Mary C “I think it has more to do with how we look at ourselves in comparrison to those women than the “moral” aspect of it.”
I cannot speak for other women but for me it is a feminist thing. Porn stars are in fact prostitutes and watching them online or elsewhere is colluding with the degradation of women and of sex.
I would love to meet a man who hates porn, but realise that they are all watching it free online now, and so if I want to be with a man, I have to accept that.
Very interesting post, I wonder how to have boundaries when I don’t even know who i am, where to start. I’ve just been watching my life. i am 56 yrs. old and have never mattered. I did to my family as dysfunctional as it was. I over-think evrything, and yet know nothing. I go along with most anything when it’s not even what I want….
I just want to say thank you to all of you women (and I think a man here and there!) for being so honest and vulnereable by sharing your stories, your challenges, and your dance of growth (two steps forward, one step back!). I see myself in so many of you and it makes me feel so much better to know that I am not the only one who has done foolish and self destructive behaviors (sorry, misery loves company!…but it does make me feel more “normal” when you all sound so darn “normal”)! I even cringe a bit when I think of how many times a well place F/U would/should have been so appropriate when my boundaries were definitely crossed and just didn’t come out of my mouth cause I was afraid my prize guy would cut me out!
Like so many of you, I am educated, strong, smart, fun, successful, have lots of girlfriends I adore, and survived huge obstacles life has thrown at me….and at 49 still trying to figure out this whole relationship thing so I can get it right some day! I am usually pretty good at boundaries, objectivity, etc. but I do still fall for these “bad boys” and it takes me a while to extricate myself from the situation. Then I spend weeks recovering. But like the rest of you, I will pick myself up, brush myself off, and try it again, a bit older and wiser! Practise makes perfect 🙂
And special thanks to Natalie. This site is part of my therapy. Not only your blogs that are amazing, but I read all the comments and learn from all of your readers as well. I am sending this site to all the women in my family…we breed dysfunction and low self esteem, so lots to send it too!
Four weeks NC, wahoo! Easier every day, although I do have my moments when I still can’t believe he hasn’t come after me. I love the line above about the AC who has no problem flushing you out of his life when you cross his boundary – I pushed, he flushed!!
Have a great weekend everyone!
Just want to update anyone who’s following my progress… with internet dating to take my mind/heart/libido off my EUM AC…. I am using the men who contact me as my guinea pigs to practice my brand new lifestyle of Having Boundaries. Like Jasmine said, I have always been so grateful that any men are interested in me that I ignore one Red Flag after another, scared to call them out on the way they speak to me, because all the good men are taken and I mustn’t alienate the few that are left for me.
BUT NOW …. the moment a man I’m chatting to online writes anything that makes me feel uncomfortable or is mildly insulting or bordering on sleazy, instead of turning my usual blind eye because he’s dishy or conveniently local and just hoping against hope that he wasn’t going to be like that in “real life”, I’m calling them out on every little thing. Nothing is getting past me!
I’m amazed at myself: I’ve never been so harsh on men before and I’m loving it — I feel like I’m flying. I’m instantly blocking them from contacting me if they show me a Red Flag and I’m telling those who show a Yellow flag that I won’t tolerate their behaviour. It’s all going really well!
A surprising number of “Yellow Flaggers” apologise profusely when I make my boundaries clear. We can then continue to get to know one another, with them respecting my boundaries. Failure to respond contritely to a rebuke for being a “Yellow Flagger” “promotes” them to a “Red Flagger”, then I block them. So I have “gone NC” with about 100 men in the past three days. All good practice for when I do it to the man who ripped my heart into a million pieces.
I’m having the time of my life, having turned an online dating site into a sort of practical test for graduates of this site (“Natalie’s Training School”).
I’ve had 212 men contact me on the site (in three days). And having weeded out every arsewipe, AC, sleazebag, married, smoker, beardie, game-player and Red Flagger, I’m able to happily chat away to the half a dozen that are left. Quality is more important that quantity!
Hello all 🙂
This post is so timely for me as I’m struggling today as I am in a new relationship and having to challenge boundary crossing behaviours. It so hard!
Like many others here, I was brought up to believe my feelings had no validity by a narcissistic mother and absent father. I no longer have contact with my mother and have spent 3 years out of a relationship working on my issues.
Recently I started this relationship with a lovely man who I have known for a few years as a friend first. in the past few weeks he has done or said things that have made my gut wrench so badly that I feel sick. I have needed time to process my feelings as others have mentioned but then I have talked to him about my feelings and he has listened and taken on board what I say. One thing he does say though is that I must tell him at the time not later even though I have explained that this is how I need to deal with it to make sure I am not reacting on pure emotion.
In this situation, he informed me that he was meeting old friends on a day/time that we had talked about doing something. I am not invited although other partners are going. I feel hurt that I was ‘told’ and it wasn’t discussed and that I am not invited – I feel excluded and my gut is also telling me that he is keeping something from me to do with this as he was acting quite cagey when he told me he was going. The problem is that he has every right to meet his friends and it is not for me to stop him but something about this makes me feel sick in the stomach. He includes me in every other area of his life so I don’t see why I am feeling this way and what exactly I am feeling..I have talked about this with him and he assures me that there is nothing to hide but still there’s a nagging, gnawing feeling in my stomach..
NML – how can I maintain a boundary if I cannot tell what it is? I feel like there is a fog around my feelings and I’m trying to see something but I can’t…I then feel that I am overreacting..
Can anyone relate to his or am I losing the plot completely?
Shania x
Shania, you have the same issue I have. The only difference is you appear to KNOW what you are reacting to, but you take the time to make sure it is NOT emotional, and that it is rational. I, on the other hand, get a “gut wrench” but I have no clue what I’m reacting to, and it takes me 48 hours to figure out what the issue is (and usually it’s that someone has made an “innocent” comment with “hidden agenda”). I am working on that, but it’s a “barrier to boundaries” similar to you. I feel like you. “How can I maintain a boundary if it takes me 48 hours to figure out what my boundary is?”
I’m sorry you are dealing with that, but I’m glad it’s not just me. All I can do is empathize. I don’t have a suggestion, as I’m trying to figure it out for me!
Shania, I relate completely. My ex AC did this to me a lot. It really hurt my feeling and I felt left out. As time went on I felt like he was excluding me to keep me from becoming part of the “circle” and getting too close to his life. Then as his friends started to know me better, I would run into them somewhere and they would ask me if I was coming “tomorrow ” night. I had no idea what they were talking about because I rountinely got left out by the AC. It was very awkward for me. Over the course of four years, I watched the friends “new” girlfriends show up and become part of the circle while I was still being left out. I was invited to some stuff, but so many things, like parties, wine tasting, weddings , happened and I was just not invited. He always had an excuse, “He forgot” or “found out at the last minute” or “just the guys” (found out later it wasn’t). Lies. He was just keeping me at arms length. Hindsight….he was keeping me in limbo and feeding me crumbs, saying he wanted to be in a relationship, but not acting like it. Your guy might want a night with his friends, and it could mean nothing more, but if it keeps happening, don’t ignore it. It is a weird feeling because it is hard to identify a specific boundary, even thought it feels wrong. In my case, looking back, I would call it stalling, blowing cold and drip feeding. It turned into omission when I started speaking up about it hurting my feelings, he kept is social life secret instead of including me. So another boundary, he set the pace of the relationship on his terms. I wouldn’t jump to conclusions just yet, but his canceling plans with you then being with friends and not inviting you would send up some warning bells. He may have valid reasons this time, but if it happens again, beware of a pattern.
@Sharnia
It is really hard to evaluate someone elses relationship, because we are not you and know what behaviour came before, how long you have been together and what markers have already been crossed (eg met the parents etc) if he has always included you but now has turned the tables….yes it is a concern. It might come under the relm of playing down expectations. We sure should be invited to couples evenings, a guy into you wants to show you off. A guy keeping you as an option likes to appear single to certain circles of friends. Only you know really. A person with low self-esteem would be thinking oh maybe its just me being over-sensitive, afterall, I have childhood abandonment issues, however maybe its him with the baggage? Not being inclusive is just nasty. Adults know that not all relationships have happy endings, so just because we partner a person to a wedding or the office party, we know that doesn’t guarantee a permanent situation. You learn a lot about people by their friends and associates, so it is an important part to be introduced to each others tribe. If you spot hot and cold games played with their friends then its just a matter of time before the leopard shows his spots to you.
In my past situation, yeah like you I was TOLD I am doing this and that and basically you are not invited, so I relate to what you say. At that stage I felt I didn’t have enough information, actually I did, only it was such a sudden turn around I couldn’t process this Mr Hyde until a lot later.
Wish I had left sooner and kept the space empty for someone who really wanted to be there. Unfortunately processing an H bomb in your heart takes a lot longer than a chip in the china at the first red flags. So try to establish the intention behind the action and also do judge the action and not the imaginative drivel excuses that might be uttered.
You sound in a good head space. Stay realistic.
@Shania. Firstly, he has side-lined you by seeing these friends when ye were supposed to be doing something together.
If other partners, gfs, etc. are going, why isn’t he asking you? it sounds to me like he is keeping you a secret. of course, he has every right to meet his friends, but he is blatantly leaving you out of the picture here. that’s not good enough and its very disrespectful to you.
I feel he is drip feeding you just enough to keep you interested when you question him on things.
It may be a good idea to look objectively at his behaviour. for example, have there been times he’s cancelled on you and more than likely at short notice? Does he call when he says he will call? do you go out in public with him? Does he pre-plan meeting up with you a few days in advance or are you in the dark as to when you will see him next? Is he secretive about his life? Is he keeping you a secret?
If the answers to these are not positive, i think its time for you to bail out. he sounds emotionally unavailable.
THANK YOU, THANK YOU!! I recently found this site due to a recent breakup. Through reflection and you’re valuable wisdom I have begun to realize so much about myself and my previous relationship.
Now I see that in certain situations (people I respect or care about) I do not assert my boundaries. For me, I think it has to do with my need for validation. Growing up, I felt my father wasn’t there for me emotionally and always pointed out my flaws while my mother just stood by and never said anything to him. To her, she did not want to argue in front of us “kids” but would later say something to him in private. Now, as an adult I let how others view me effect my self-worth when I don’t get that validation from them. I see now that this is ridiculous. I need to love myself and create that validation for myself. I think that is the first step to overcoming my fear of putting my boundaries in place for EVERYONE, not just sometimes. It is a work in progress but I feel a weight lifted off since now I have the insight to what I need to work on to be a healthier, happier me. 🙂
-SHANIA
You sound a lot like me a few months ago. One thing I have realized is that a lot of times when I would feel uneasy in the relationship was because in some way my boundaries were being crossed. For example, we are both fairly young (23) but at very different stages in life. I have already graduated college with my bachelors and have a job where he is barely starting school. We also live four hours away from each other. He would tell me that he wanted a relationship with me but every few weeks he would change his mind about what he wanted to do with his life and it wouldn’t include me. Whenever I would say something to him about his constant flip flopping and what about us he would say that he is just trying to figure out what he wanted to do with HIS life and that I had my time to figure things out for myself. That has nothing to do with me and his feelings for me and why do we have to worry about one of us moving right now. Afterwards, I would feel bad about saying anything but it still felt wrong and I wasn’t really sure why. I thought, well he does have the right to figure out his life and maybe I should just go with the flow and stop worrying so much. Now, I realize that the reason I felt wrong was because I was bending myself to fit what he wanted. He does have a right to be where he is at in his life but so do I. I have the right to be where I am at in my life and the right to want to be in a committed relationship. There was a disconnect between what he would say and his actions which made it hard to trust him. So everytime he would change his mind again I would freak out because I became afraid he would change his mind about how he felt for me. The problem is that I didn’t trust him and with good reason. I should have realized that this is a red flag because we obviously don’t want the same things but I wanted the relationship so much that I just overlooked that. It’s hard to stand up for yourself and what you want but if you don’t, no one else will.
I don’t know if that helps you but I guess what I’m trying to say is that you have the right to feel what you feel. If you have a gut feeling about something it is probably not unfounded. If I were you, I would try to take a step back and really analyze the situation and my feelings. NML has a really good post about evaluating your emotions. Do you trust him when he says that there is nothing going on? If not, then why? If so, then why do you not trust him in this one instance? Just my opinion, hope it helps. 🙂
I would like some advice from you all. I would like to develop stronger boundaries and I know them in my head, but I have trouble finding the words to say them. It seems like for most things you should at least tell the person they have crossed (or where it is) your boundary before you just totally cut them off. Then once they are aware of your boundary if they continue to cross it, then yes, I can see that cutting them off is the best thing.
I’ve got two examples that I’d love to know words for. The first one is a guy I met a couple of months ago. We’ve been out several times and things seem well, but 80% of the communication is on Instant Messenger and 10% in real life. To me this doesn’t cut it. How do I express that in words? I know that if I just stay off IM he will email me or phone asking if I am ok, or if I am mad, etc. (he has done it before and I have just evaded “no, I’m not mad, I’ve just been busy” etc.). To me, more time needs to be spent face to face in person or I am not interested.
A second example is a friend who always expects me to keep her little dog for her when she goes out of town. I just don’t like keeping the little dog and it is not even fully housebroken even though it is a year old. When she asks me the next time, I can’t just say “no” – she will either ask why or say things to make me feel guilty (she has done that before when I tried to evade) . What words would I use for this? (this would be like the 5th time to keep her dog, she never keeps mine for me, etc.). I don’t want to totally ruin our friendship, but I don’t want to keep her dog.
I really want to develop stronger boundaries and I have pretty clear ideas of what I want them to be, but it is the expressing them that I am having trouble with.
thanks!
Lynne, you are like me. “Don’t say no or bad things happen.” That’s the message I got growing up. And, like you, I constantly seek validation because I didn’t get it from my parents. I seek validation from supervisors at work, and from boyfriends and from friends. I fear conflict.
When your friend asks you to keep her dog, you might start off by saying something positive, that you WILL do, like… “I am willing to do X for you if you need, but I cannot keep your dog for you, I’m sorry.” However, I know that if I were in your shoes, I would have trouble implementing this advice. IT’S HARD to enforce your boundaries on people. Especially family. YOU AREN’T ALLOWED TO HAVE BOUNDARIES AROUND FAMILY! (or that’s the message I got….)
Hi Lynne! You’re just gonna have to bite the bullet. The more you say “no”, the easier it gets. Like anything else, the first time you do it, it’s tough. I have found that the less I explain the reasons why, the better. If they badger you into explaining yourself, then no answer/explanation will satisfy them, anyway! They’ll keep using your reasons to twist things around and make you feel that your reasons are stupid, wrong & selfish. She shouldn’t try to make you feel guilty for saying “no”. Friends should respect your feelings & wishes and if she gets all bent out of shape over it, then she’s not really a friend, just a user. Besides, making people feel guilty is what mothers are for!
Lynne: for this guy here, the best thing to do is come right out and say it to him. Say what you feel to him and what you want to change. if he’s genuine, he will make the effort to phone you rather than instant messenger. If he doesn’t change, that means he’s very stubborn and is keeping an emotional distance between you by using instant messenger. that’s a red flag. Natalie says its lazy communication and i agree with that.
Regarding the dog, that’s a tricky one! i think it’s unreasonable of your friend to ask you to mind him when he’s not house trained! would she mind a dog taht wasn’t house trained i wonder? Would you be ok with minding him if he was house trained? I wonder what does she say to you when you ask her to mind your dog? it seems its a one way street with this girl!. If you have things on during the weekend she asks you to mind her dog, you are within your rights to say ou can’t mind him cos you’re doing x, y and z that weekend and you won’t be available. if its a genuine friendship, she should understand that. i’m sure she could find someone else to mind him anyway, if she had to.
Another comment I want to make on people’s “Boundaries.” A boyfriend I had in my 20’s kept saying to me, “Have consideration for my feelings.” What he REALLY meant was… “Do what I say.”
Excuse me but “consideration for your feelings” does NOT equate to “do what you say.”
I can “consider your feelings” but still do what I think is right for me. I get sick of people who say “consideration for my feelings” when they really mean “do what I say.”
Anyone run into this? Does “consideration for my/your feelings” actually equate to “do what I say/want?” I don’t think it does.
WOW! That’s similar to the nonsense that my ex-husband used to say. He’d always say, “can’t you see my side of things?” (because he didn’t have feelings). Funny thing is, I was the one who ALWAYS had to see his side of things! Like when he wanted me to sell the car I love, take his beat-up piece of junk, so HE could buy a brand new sporty car- manual transmission of course, because I can’t drive stick. “Considering his feelings” just means we are not agreeing to give THEM what THEY want and for temporarily forgetting they’re #1 always! Gee, why couldn’t we see that? lol. By the way, I REFUSED to give up my car. I still have it. I got rid of him instead. He didn’t have a high resale value, though.
I say to myself everyday “Fight your fears.”
Listen to this girls for a bit of inspiration and have a lovely weekend:
This post has shaken me up, and I was having a very low weekend to begin with. After more than 5 months NC, I cannot get my AC out of my head this weekend, no matter what. Not sure what triggered it, although just seeing him in passing on Thursday may be part of it. He didn’t even acknowledge I existed, which is fine, as I have been strict with the NC and know he is an uncaring, lying worthless piece of AC trash. So why the obsessive thoughts after I have been so good for so long, after I had made such progress focusing on me? Not sure. Normally when this happens, it means something is working its way to the surface. I am the Queen of Denial but when I am ready to face something, let some idea move from my unconscious to my conscious mind, I find myself rehashing the same thoughts over and over again till something clicks. I had made a few big breakthroughs on Thursday and Friday and thought I was “done” in terms of major revelations for the weekend, but I have never felt so unsettled. I am overeating, overthinking, overanalysing like crazy and I hate it. I feel out of control, and I had been making such progress lately. Is this a temporary set back or is something else going on? This post has me thinking about my past patterns and how stuck I have been. I see the need for boundaries and how few I have had in the past, thinking that that was what intimacy was – knocking down the walls and letting someone in. That was one of my breakthroughs – that boundaries are not the same thing as walls or being emotional unavailable. Boundaries are ways we respect ourselves. Being emotional unavailable is how I protect myself from getting hurt. If my boundaries were better, I would not get hurt (or at least not as much) because I wouldn’t be letting ACs/EUMs and other losers into my life, trusting blindly and hoping they didn’t screw me over, all the while screaming “come on in and do what you like, I am too desperate to stop you!!”. A good thing to realize and hopefully the start of breaking that belief and pattern.
So why do I keep going back to the AC? It’s hard to believe at this point that there is anything left to be learned there. His boundaries were fantastic – there was no way I was getting anywhere near him. He was very good at communicating his limits, even without speaking. I just knew what lines I could not cross. I thought if I let down my guard, he would see that trust and intimacy weren’t so bad and scary. All he saw was what an easy mark I was. Why do I keep trying to get care and love from people who refuse to give it? I feel completely drained and empty. My need for love is now so great, I am trying to ring it out of a stone. There is something I am still missing. Maybe that’s why the tape of the AC keeps playing in my head. Perhaps he holds the missing piece. At least that would make him good for something….
Tina, I’m having problems, too. Ten months since I walked out, but only ONE month of NC. There were a lot of things I liked about the A/C, stuff that I wanted in a guy. I think Natalie has a post or video on it, something about… “We have so much in common…. Um…. No you don’t….”
I found Natalie’s blog right after I walked out. I like what she says, I know she is right, my brain agrees, but my heart won’t accept it.
And I let the A/C bust all my boundaries, I didn’t speak up. I felt intimidated. These were my “excuses.”
– ‘What if they get mad at me?’
– ‘What if they think I’m argumentative and up my own backside?’ (which I got accused of!)
– I’m afraid that by expressing what I’m uncomfortable with that the other person will get mad at me. I’m afraid of conflict and would rather compromise myself than experience what I think are the consequences of asserting my boundaries.
– I am afraid of acknowledging my needs.
– I’m afraid of conflict.
– I’m afraid of not being The Good Girl.
Also, I wanted validation, Natalie’s “Make me the exception” thing.
I, too, am still trying to figure out why this one happened. I feel like life played a cruel joke on me. I have had bad guys before, but never an insecure passive aggressive self absorbed one like this one. I didn’t feel I was missing anything before I met the A/C, I was fine being alone. Now I’m like you, I feel like I’m missing something and trying to wring it out of a stone.
I hope you don’t take ten months or more to get over yours. I don’t know what to tell you. All the stuff I see online about “how to get over breakups” doesn’t work for me. Yeah, yeah, “go spend time with your friends…..” well, you TEMPORARILY smile and pretend that everything is fine, but you come back home and the pain is still there, it didn’t go away. You still have to get through the pain. My friends tell me I should be out dating. NOPE. If you aren’t over the person, you will act “too weird” on dates. So, no Match DOT com for me. I will wait until my heart feels it’s right. Could be a long time…….
Tina,
When I did NC with AC the first time around, about the five month stage I was at a really low point and it was after I had a small amount of contact with him.
I believe we go back to a time where we felt sort of loved, or thought we were loved and we romanticise the situation in our heads.
I cried for a week at month five, then I got better. At the time there were other things happening in my life that made me feel alone and unloved. I went though a series of exercises within my head, fantasising about him, then getting real with myself. Getting real with myself was so hard and made me feel worse, then the weight lifted.
Maybe because he didn’t acknowledge you in any cordial way it gave you a clear message and it hurt. Take control of it, realise that the missing piece is not him. The missing piece (the same as it was for me) is not loving you first.
You deserve better than not even being acknowledged! And believe me having him back in any capacity will hurt more. I know it did me and I’m in NC again.
@Tina
I feel for you and think I have been were you are right now. I like what you said about the differences between boundaries and protective walls (being EU). That is a mistake I think I made as well. I felt I had to strip down all my guarding and shields and emotional protection….I just picked the worst man on earth to do that with. Boundaries aren’t ways of keeping all people at a distance, they are about keeping the wrong people out of your life. I’m glad I see that now. They are the ways we select who we let into our weird little worlds. Boundaries are how we figure out who is safe.
I also think I might have a clue as to your obsessive thinking patterns. Like you, I always begin to revisit some aspect of the relationship over and over again before I come to some great aha! moment of my own. And, like you, I am a big fan of denial and have discovered that I use it alot in my relationships. I think you might be having the weekend you are having for the same reason I have them: it is comfortable and calming to think about the AC, instead of yourself. It’s easier to work out their problems and identify their patterns than deal with your own. As Natalie has said many times, many ways (and thank god, because it takes a while for the message to sink in), we attract these men for a reason, namely that we are EU ourselves. I thought because I was so desperate for a relationship and had willingly dropped my boundaries to let it happen, that meant I was “available”, when all it really meant was that I was available to be used and abused by a narcissist. When I find myself going over and over something he said or did or some issue, its because there is something about it that resonates in me too. It’s my pattern and problem as well, but its easier to see and dissect in him, rather than myself. Another protective layer of denial, probably, but the good news is that eventually it does work its way up into my brain and I am able to apply the lesson to myself. Hopefully you can do the same. It’s just having the courage and safety needed to be able to look at it from your own perspective and identify your own role, accountability and patterns.
I sincerely hope your weekend improves. We all have them. That’s why I am so thankful for Natalie and this site. You are not alone, you are not crazy, you are still and always better off without him. Stay NC…..it only feeds their egos to know they can still get to us. Don’t give him the satisfaction. Take care of you.
Thank you, Debra. Your posting to Tina has helped me immensely. You articulated my situation with myself exactly — I thought I was “available” but really I was just available to be abused (pattern from childhood). Cannot believe it took me this long to figure out that boundaries keep the bad out — it’s not a wall to keep everyone out. This stuff has been hard to look at and I love wearing that fur cloak of denial. But now it’s suffocating me. I must look at myself and take care of myself first — and you’re right — we are all better than being fodder for someone’s ego. Your posting reverberates with me — thank you so much!
Thanks Tina and Debra and others for sharing that getting over ACs is not a straight line. I read your posts and understand that I can have a good week of focus, enjoying work, self-care, friends and feeling empowered, followed by a day or two where I suddenly am thinking about the AC all the time, getting annoyed with myself for obsessing and digging desperately through Baggage Reclaim for every article that even remotely relates (practically all of them! 🙂 )
For what it’s worth, despite the occasional setbacks, I have been fascinated to notice these slow changes in myself: I used to feel like work was this thing I ‘had’ to do and my accomplishments meant nothing ‘without someone to share them with.’ Now little by little I realize – thanks in no small part to this blog — that I validate myself, so if I want to take pride in being good at my work, I can do that. Myself.
So little by little, where I used to have to fight to get back to work because my thoughts were consumed with the AC, and I kind of enjoyed thinking about ‘us,’ now it’s like my getting-to-use-my -talents-time is being genuinely interrupted every time this relationship drama flares up. On the good days, I genuinely feel like I have something more important – more fun! – to do with my mental space. This is new for me and totally awesome.
What is also weird is that some of my girlfriends, who are used to me being sad about my bad luck, are having to shift with me as I begin talking happily about my work, speaking openly about successes and the opportunities I create for myself, and bouncing back quickly from close encounters of the assclown kind.
I think some of them are used to me being the friend that makes them feel like they have their life together, and when I start acting strong, it causes weirdness. Could it be that I have some of the same dynamics in my gf relationships as I did big time with these guys I picked?
Nat, I could go into how for me I think internalized racism has been a HUGE factor in what kind of assclownishness I have allowed and am probably still allowing. I am just scratching the surface of what I really believe a brown girl in Canada is going to be able to get in life. I mean, talk about attracting people who reflect what you believe about yourself. Ugh. Gross.
Okay, I’m off to study the life stories of Indra Nooyi, Jhumpa Lahiri, and Toni Morrison.
Thanks ladies for being here as our NCs stretch from weeks to months to years, with each day being an opportunity to find out how awesome and powerful we actually are.
@Tina
Yes, I am in that same place too. Trying unsuccessfuly to go NC, but spent a lot of time crying over him again last night and this morning, then after receiving a last-minute cancellation of a date tonight I was plunged again into desperation and stupidly weakened and emailed him saying I want to get back with him (sexually) and will wait for him etc. Part of me was terrified he’d reply saying it’s over between us permanently, the other part prayed he WOULD reject me, then I’d be free at last and could start the process of grieving and never see him again.
When he replied, flattered and saying he still wanted to have me that way as well, and that he will if his new relationship doesn’t work out (i.e. giving me the position of Fallback Girl) I felt relieved and grateful he still had hopes for us. I sobbed with relief, whispering “I love you” over and over onto my wet pillowcase.
And so now I feel validated, and yet stupid for not keeping my dignity. I feel very disappointed in myself and cannot believe I weakened and wrote that.
So I will start again today to go NC. Never dreamed it would be THIS hard!
Tina,
It’s a hard place to be in, and it takes time to move away. No too many mental techniques can short circuit the time needed. The best is to keep moving while you wait for the pathways to heal. Walk; Clean; Exercise.
Put one foot in front of the other, and get through the days. That won’t heal your mind, but it will keep you busy until healing does come.
Reading Natalie”s post about mistakes made by you in the relationship is good prep for the future, but won’t heal in the present. That will take more time, but it will come.
You have already made progress (many aren’t even ready for NC) and you have had a setback with your visualization of the AC, who is just trying to hurt you (or use pain to draw you back in on his terms.) Women with (new) good boundaries are an AC’s worst nightmare.
There is happiness out there. You can do this.
Tina, debra and others –
” a setback with your visualization of the AC, who is just trying to hurt you (or use pain to draw you back in on his terms.) Women with (new) good boundaries are an AC’s worst nightmare.”
TRUE!!! Seeing them again can be enough to set us back! Don’t let him get to you. These sick people sink into our minds and hearts and don’t want to let go. They enjoy watching us squirm and jump. They live to see that they can still make us miserable, just by walking by. Refusing to play by his rules is the only thing you can do. NC is the only thing that really works. Don’t let him suck you back in.
THe whole idea of boundaries and walls is interesting to me. Like debra and the other readers, I used to think that boundaries were walls or hurdles others had to get over to get to me. I had decided with my last AC to get rid of the walls and let someone really get close to me. That’s not boundaries. That’s just stupid.
Boundaries are what I will not put up with. Walls are there to protect against WHO I will not put up with. A simple idea but a good one.
Thank you, once again, Nat!
You seem to be writing these blogs as if you are watching what I am doing at this very moment. It really is kind of scary how spot on you are!
I have been recently challenged in the boundary department as I started seeing/talking with this particular man. I met him at my gym. He is the new personal trainer and we started talking and hanging out. Then things got weird and he decided to treat me in an unkind way for no particular reason.
My normal reaction…go about my business and say nothing. But after reading this blog and many others I decided to put up my “electric fence” and I refuse to be a doormat any longer. So I made myself very clear that it is not ok to treat women like that (especially since he is a single father with sole custody of a little girl) and I won’t stand for it.
I am sure to see him tomorrow at the gym and it will be nerve racking for me, but the bottom line is I finally stood up for myself and so I will hold my head high and act like my knees aren’t shaking at the thought of running in to him.
Thank you Nat for helping me find my boundaries and speaking my truth!
Hi everyone,
I’m coming back here regularly, reading lots. Three months of NC from my end. I am still sitting here in the coffee shop where I was just now, when I looked out and thought I saw what looked like my ex’s car at the intersection. I looked and the car slowed significantly and the driver seemed to be looking into the coffee shop. About ten minutes later, there he is, the ex, standing beside me, saying hey you changed your hair and wanting to know if he should get a coffee and sit down.
I said, I think you should go. And he did.
This after 3 months of not responding to any of his post-breakup calls, emails, except one early on – a one liner – to say “I said no contact.”
God, god, god. It feels so ‘unlike me’ to have done that. All these voices in my head saying I’m the oversensitive chick that can’t even have a coffee conversation with the guy she was considering a future with. Then the voices going, he has tried to get in touch over and over since you said ‘no.’ That’s all the info you need.
I understand the ‘being afraid’ to have standards. I feel like I’m asking for way more than anyone in my life would encourage me to believe in. How DARE I tell someone to go away without giving them a chance to talk to me?
I am indeed afraid. It feels like I’m refusing to hear out a fellow human being. But I come back here and read. I decide that my reaction was healthy. Would you agree?
And thoughts on what this little run-in does to NC? I am not back to square one emotionally, but I’m back to day zero as far as the last time I saw him. I’d appreciate any support.
Hi lynn,
Good for you for telling him No. If you’re not used to saying no, it can be scary.. You asked him for no contact, he did’t respect your wishes and that’s crossing your boundary, Lynn. if you had sat down with him and talked, it would have set you back ten steps. you’re probably a bit in shock that he has the “brass balls” (i love that phrase that natalie uses..) to come in to the coffee shop in the first place.
You have decided to move on and stick with it!
best wishes.
Hi Lynne! I feel the same way: how could I be so cruel to not want to have a conversation with a guy who made it perfectly clear that he enjoyed stomping on my heart? I think it’s because WE wouldn’t want to be blown off that way. But remember that we are people who have a heart and soul. These guys do not. No good would have come from your conversation- these guys have ulterior motives- he was only there to nose around in your business and see if you were still interested. Mostly, they do it so you don’t forget them. As Nat says, these guys have no shame.
Don’t feel like you’re at “Day Zero” because he approached you. You didn’t approach HIM. Whatever they do is on them, not on you. You didn’t contact him. I made it to Day 60.5 and on Day 61, The Faucet (my nice nickname for him) contacted me. I just ignored him. My NC count continues…
You did good!!! 🙂
It’s about self protection and love, there is a reason this man is no longer in your life. You owe him nothing, not even conversation.
Keep it up!
Great post. Thanks for refreshing my memory.