Marci writes I have read and re-read on emotionally unavailable men here at your site. I am so confused on this issue due to the current situation I am in. He falls in and out of many types. Help me please to resolve this confusion and frustration. We started with a bang then a pop. He did inform me that he is messed up from the divorce a year ago. In any case, the first couple “weeks” was the most time we spent together in the 3 months gone by. It faded….and he is not good about phone calls nor other communication, stating “I am not much for phone talk” Reg flag? He only contacts me a couple times a month now. I do believe he is dating others. Here is the bare bones of my confusion. When this man and I are together, it is magical. We communicate well, we have a blast when we go out. He treats me with the utmost respect. I know he is not living with someone else as he has spent several nights with me. He kisses my forehead and holds me like I am his, amongst other things. We are like one when together. It would be viewed and has been from others we are a great couple. After these fabulous dates, nothing for up to 2 weeks??? Who is he??? He is always a gentleman, loving and very affectionate, seems so into me then GONE. Until he is ready to see me again. Help me here.
The reason why you’re confused and frustrated is because in spite of doing some homework on your guy, you have chosen to reject any ‘shady behaviour’ in favour of focusing on the times when you are together. You want to believe that you are the exception to the norm and that there is a magic potion or move out there that you need to do to turn him into someone who behaves like this all the time instead of in hot bursts. But be under no illusions, you are experiencing him blowing hot and cold…big time. He’s now also trained you not to expect phonecalls, for him to go ‘dark’ for a couple of weeks at a time, or for him to make you feel like you’re the centre of the universe when he dignifies you with turning his hot tap of attention back on. He is a Mr Unavailable.
Whether he is one type or falls in and out of other types, is really a non-issue. The fact that he is exhibiting any of this behaviour is a major red flag. In fact, with him falling in and out of ‘many’ types, I’d be very afraid! If this is what you’ll put up with in the first few weeks and months, what will you put up with in three months time?
1) He informed you that he is messed up from his divorce a year ago. – Not ready to be in a relationship, still not over his ex or the issues that he experienced. Readily admits that he’s messed up. He warned you. When someone says ‘I’m messed up’ it means… ‘I’m messed up’ it doesn’t mean ‘I’m messed up for everyone else but you’. It does however mean ‘I’m messed up, don’t expect anything from me’.
2) Other than the first 2 weeks, for the remainder of the 3 months, he has faded out – Blew hot, now running cold. You’re invested in 2 weeks instead of seeing that for 10 out of 12 weeks he’s been something else entirely. Seriously, don’t you think it’s odd to be heavily invested in someone who couldn’t ‘keep it up’ past the first two weeks? Is two weeks enough to get invested over? And I speak from experience – the Mr Unavailable that made me ‘see the light’ was full on for 2 weeks, and hot and cold bursts for the subsequent 4.5 months. I kept waiting for it to get back on track – it never did.
3) He doesn’t bother to call – claiming not to be one for phone talk – What kind of foolishness is this man talking? This goes beyond lazy communication. You’re now on a ‘Don’t call me, I’ll call you’ arrangement. Does that sound normal to you? You see him in short bursts and you hardly hear from him in between – how do you expect this relationship to progress?
4) He calls twice a month – I hear from British Gas more often… He’s not calling because 1) he’s too busy getting on with his other life, 2) he may be afraid of confusing himself with names etc, 3) he doesn’t want you to think this is more than what it is, and 4) because you let him and you are content with him blowing in every fortnight.
5) You think he’s dating others – Well he certainly managed to create the time and energy to do them, in spite of not being able to do that for you. You’re not exclusive, you’re not even on the same dating planet. This man is not trying to cultivate a relationship with you – he is keeping his options open.
6) When you’re together it’s ‘magical’ – Of course it is, you hardly see him. If I hadn’t eaten for a month and someone gave me a cracker, I’d probably think it was the best thing I ever ate, but actually, it’s just a cracker. You’re focused on those fleeting albeit intense ‘moments’ that you spend with him. However, you have this man on temporary loan for a few hours or whatever amount of time you spend around him. It may feel good in those times but it is not a full time gig.
You’re focused on the feeling you have during those times instead of seeing the full picture and recognising the weirdness of what’s going on in between your meetings.
7) We communicate well – Really? Me thinks you’re bullshitting yourself there. You may have great conversation when you meet up but you don’t communicate that well that he can be straight with you verbally about what’s going on here and that you will listen.
8) He treats you with the utmost respect – In the context of an evening maybe, but in the context of the duration of time that you think you’ve been involved with him, he is anything but respectful. What he’s doing is treating you well enough that he can leave you on a high and then disappear. By the time you realise that you’re back to square one, he’ll already be on a date with someone else and you’ll be nostalgic enough to see if you can plan for next time.
You think he’s a gentleman – gentlemen are gentlemen, period. They don’t switch it off as soon as they’ve got what they want.
What you think is the potential of a relationship which is generated by your magical interludes, is a mirage. The moment you so much as attempt to get up close to the possibility of a relationship, it (and he) will disappear.
9) You know he’s not living with someone else because you’ve spent several nights together – I once met a woman on a train who had just found out that the man she had thought was ‘hers’ for 3 years had a secret life with a wife and kids. He claimed he was working ‘away’. You don’t know anything about this man – you are not a part of his life. Even if he isn’t living with someone, what has that got to do with the price of milk?
10) He kisses your forehead like you’re ‘his’ etc – Anybody can kiss a forehead and romance you for a time, but can they cut it in a consistent relationship?
11) You think (and seemingly others do) that you’re a great couple – You’re great on dates, but it doesn’t translate to anything beyond that. You’re not exclusive, he disappears, he’s seeing other people – you’re clearly not that great a couple. When someone is genuinely interested in you they don’t resist you. When someone is a decent person they don’t disappear and date and shag people in between.
12) You ask who he is? He’s Hollowman. Mr Unavailable. Mr Fortnight. Mr Magic Moments. But he’s certainly not Mr Relationship. You’ve got him on a short-term loan. If you’re OK with 2 calls a month which is basically ‘notification that I want to hook up’ and him disappearing afterwards, then that’s your prerogative but at least see it for what it is instead of just focusing on what you see as ‘good points’.
What’s going on here? You’re getting played like a finely tuned guitar. You’re rationalising everything, coming up with new meanings for his behaviour, and casting yourself in a great romance. I’d take him down off his pedestal and come back down to reality pronto. I know people who have these types of arrangements for years because they’d rather have something rather than nothing but lose themselves along the way. Next thing you know, they feel like they’ve wasted their lives in some piss poor arrangement and that it’s ‘too late’ to start over because they accepted crumbs for so long.
Of course you could just ask him straight out, but I’m going to guess that you haven’t done that because you know you won’t like what you hear or you may be inclined to disregard the information and hang around for the good times. You know the truth, you just don’t want to see it.
This is exactly how we sell ourselves short and manage down our expectations. You want to be a girlfriend? Start as you mean to go on and never be prepared to accept someone blowing in on the wind, romancing you, disappearing and then lather, rinse, repeat. That’s not a relationship – it’s a hook up.
It’s time to start asking: What’s in this for you? Why does a shady ‘arrangement’ like this work for you?
I’m all about owning your choices so if you’re happy with this situation in the real world (not just your imagination), that’s your prerogative but if you want more than what is on offer, you don’t want to sleep with multiple partners (I hope you’re being safe), and you don’t want to take up a vocation of trying to turn him into the boyfriend he isn’t about to become, I would abort the mission and come back down to earth.
I can imagine the advice being hard to hear – but if this
was my sister, friend…anyone – this is exactly the advice i would
give! Sometimes we need to hear what we deep down already know. I
hope that Marci can move on after this. Take the time to deal with
the feelings she will no doubt have to wrestle with and when she is
really ready – meet someone deserving of her time and
energy.
MC
on 14/01/2011 at 6:26 pm
The letter really speaks volumes to me. How does one ‘abort
the mission?’ Do you sever all ties? Tell him to piss off? What? My
problem isn’t seeing the wood for the tree’s, it’s always finding
the strength to walk away and not taking it personally.
Movedup
on 14/01/2011 at 7:57 pm
Always choose you.
Learning
on 14/01/2011 at 9:01 pm
Also, try not to take it personally. With EUMs, their
behavior/noncommittalness usually has little to nothing to do with
you.
namaste
on 15/01/2011 at 8:53 am
I need to repeat “do not to take this personally” every
time I get sentimental and nostalgic about my perceived
relationship with ‘The Hollowman.’ I must focus on myself and
living in the present and believe his behaviour not the practiced
words he tells me only because he knows I want to hear them and it
will get him what he wants from me. Responding to him effectively
hooks me back into building castles in the clouds. And I am
learning from this blog and other peoples’ experiences that I will
remain the Fallback girl if I don’t love and respect myself enough
to change.
LMA
on 14/01/2011 at 9:00 pm
Hi MC, I had an unavailable man in and out of my life just
like the one in the email, after a month of disappearing on me
without explanation (the latest in a string of disappearances) he
sends me this huge apology email with some stupid excuse about
needing to go help his mother with something then asks me out on a
date. I never responded. NC is the best way, although telling him
to piss off is an alternative if he keeps pestering you…
MC
on 14/01/2011 at 9:39 pm
Thanks Movedup, Learning and LMA. Right now I feel
empowered, but I know the next time I hear from him, I may not be
so strong and that’s what frustrates me to no end. I know I’m
strong, but he keeps sucking me in. I’ve purchased Mr Unavailable
and the Fallback girl. I’m hoping I can get my epiphany from it.
Lord give me strength.
BRwisernow
on 14/01/2011 at 10:00 pm
OH YOU WILL…one epiphany after another! And the “No Contact Rule” will help you stick with no contact, especially when you begin to doubt your choices.
Allison
on 15/01/2011 at 6:10 am
MC, No one is sucking you in. The choice is for you to
make! Time to block all forms of communication and go NC;
otherwise, you will continue down this lonely, esteem-breaking
road!
MC
on 16/01/2011 at 3:11 am
God bless you all! I’m working through this. It’s been 24
hours since our last contact…. hour by hour! Give me
strength.
Dawn
on 17/01/2011 at 1:03 pm
MC-ask youself why you are doing what your doing. It may shead some light as to way you aren’t just walking away from someone who is basically not even capable of being in a relationship with you as evidenced by his blowing hot and cold. What’s holding you back from letting go?
Miriam
on 14/01/2011 at 6:30 pm
I aborted the mission 5 months ago, best thing I could do
for my broken self-esteem. Seriously, I’ll be damned if anyone does
this to me again! A Mr Unavailable is just that, period. Time to
dump him!
PJ
on 14/01/2011 at 6:41 pm
Flipping awesome!! (-: I think it would be a good exercise
for anyone, when they’re confused about a new relationship, to
write out this kind of summary/question, and check back themselves
or with a friend, or ideally Nat – highlight the red flags in one
color, and the positives in another (or something like that) and
analyze (maybe a day or two later) with a BR lense. It can be so
obvious to an outsider – or to a regular BR lady. It can be hard,
and hard to accept when we see we need to cut ties and be done with
it – we’ll come up with all sorts of positives/excuses, but…well,
I don’t think any of us wants to go through the kind of pain we
have with EUMs, and this was a great exercise to suss out the
behaviors!
Sweetie187
on 14/01/2011 at 6:53 pm
Natalie’s answers are SPOT ON. I cannot fault her. That’s
it in a nutshell…… You know the score. So what are you going to
do about it, Marci??
Josie
on 14/01/2011 at 6:57 pm
One of the things I will always listen for when dating is
the red flaf when someone tells you honestly who they really are.
My EUM told me “you won’t like me when you get to know me better!”
I should have asked “why” instead I ignored it , made an excuse for
this statement, He has turned out to be the biggest asshole I have
ever had the misfortune to meet. When people tell you things then
you owe it to yourself to really hear them and run like hell! For
MC who said “how do you abort the mission?” Its just saying “we’re
over, its through, don’t want to see you again no excuses or
explanations except its not working for me. That’s how I eventually
got rid of my EUM. I told him “I am not available for chatting and
we won’t ever be seeing each other again. I’m not your lover and we
are not friends. I hope I make myself clear” Never heard from him
again! Good riddance!
CC
on 14/01/2011 at 7:19 pm
Gotta say Natalie… as I read your response it was..
“yep!.. yep!.. of course!… 100% red flags!” Such a great feeling
to recognize everything now so clearly… but not so long ago I was
in the fog too and I can relate so much to the misunderstanding of
the signs where Marci is right now. If you don’t know… you don’t
know! The way I see these situations now is that it is an
opportunity to heed the lesson, to ditch these guys at the get go
from now on, and move forward with no illusions and a healthy new
found respect for ourselves, our bodies, and our time!! Love to
all! CC
PJ
on 14/01/2011 at 11:06 pm
Absolutely, like ‘early detection’ is key to survival of diseases such as cancer, early detection is also key to cutting ties with eums before they get a good hold and it takes more extreme measures or it turns fatal! (-:
Cindy
on 14/01/2011 at 7:27 pm
“I told him “I am not available for chatting and we won’t
ever be seeing each other again. I’m not your lover and we are not
friends. I hope I make myself clear” Never heard from him again!
Good riddance!” That’s great, except I told mine about the same and
he won’t leave me alone! He is annoyingly persistent and I swear
that I thanked Natalie to myself last night because thanks to
Baggage Reclaim, I now see through his hot/cold BS. I hope mine
gives up and gets a life. I figured if he really, really had an
‘epiphany’ about us then his ‘epiphany’ will still be the same
after a week or two or whatever. I think mine is knee jerk reacting
to me telling him I don’t want to see him anymore because it’s only
been 3 days since I shut the door on him. Advice?
BRwisernow
on 14/01/2011 at 9:36 pm
Fallback girl 101 Cindy, don’t buy into it, REALLY! The EUM
just wants to draw you back in so he can be the one to make the
final break…his ego is damaged by your rejection! Odds are in
favor that it is NOT an epiphany for him, but we tend to doubt
ourselves enough that we start on the destructive path of “well,
what if?” or “maybe I’ve made a mistake?”. Have your “No Contact
Rule” book handy? It SURE helps to keep your head in perspective
when this is happening. Even after no contact with my ex-EUM for
several months, it still did not stop…the pleading, the emotional
extremes (one day he’s angry and fine with it; then sad because I
hurt him so; next soooo in love with me; sitting in front of my
house when I leave for work, calls to my work; dropping by and
leaving lunch for me at the front desk with an endearing note
because he “figured I’d be hungry” (really? a fair assumption to
make after we haven’t spoken in two months I guess, LOL); leaving
gifts of “love” at my doorstep; having his Mum plead with me to
speak with him; sending messages to me through mutual friends, on
and on and on!) You know what worked for me? Baggage Reclaim and An
Order of Protection….aaaaah, PEACE! Keep moving forward and
shining!
sue
on 14/01/2011 at 7:38 pm
Hi Marci, been there, it is painful and reality hurts, but
in the long run you will be happier if you cut him off and focus on
yourself. I had to experience the same thing and the only answer is
no contact. the guy is a flip flopper and you deserve better than
his crumbs.
Movedup
on 14/01/2011 at 7:55 pm
“Of course you could just ask him straight out, but I’m
going to guess that you haven’t done that because you know you
won’t like what you hear or you may be inclined to disregard the
information and hang around for the good times. You know the truth,
you just don’t want to see it. ” Thats it in a nutshell. I too
avoiding seeing the truth. You want to believe in the magic but
remember magic is just that – illusions – its not real. The ex was
that way in the beginning but towards the end cold and distant. I
felt like a beggar for crumbs – they really weren’t even being
tossed my way. Its quite degrading. Time for an honest conversation
with yourself – you can’t have an honest conversation with him – he
will just drip feed. Is this what you want or something better and
real. If you want real – get real. Run don’t walk to the nearest
exit – save youself the heartache of staying too long and betting
on potential that was never there to start with. A better life
awaits and you can stop this rollercoaster at any time. Why not
now? My stopping was my starting place. Peace be with. Always
choose you!
Josie
on 14/01/2011 at 8:01 pm
Cindy just stick to NC and never reply or even read his
texts, don’t take his calls, block his e.mails and if it continutes
change your phone number. I blocked him on my landline number and
redirected all my mobile calls to my landline number where if he
has ever called he gets the message “this caller has blocked you
number, please replece the handset!” If you are serious about
getting an isiot out of your head and life you have to act serious
and get them OUT by giving them no access to you whatsoever. It has
worked for me..never ever heard from him again, but then if he did
try to contact me I really don’t know about it and in fact I really
do not care.
Skieslightup
on 14/01/2011 at 8:04 pm
I had an EUM like that… Turned out he was sleeping with
other people the whole time despite claiming I was his soulmate!!
How to get rid of him? Easy – tell him you don’t want this type of
relationship and then go no contact. It is possible to block
emails, block people on facebook, block contacts on your phone or
change your number. My phone company changed my number for free
because I was being harrassed. He will eventually give up. I’m now
8 months no contact, 4 months since he last attempted contact and
seeing a really nice genuine man who treats me with love, care and
respect… And I have my self esteem back!! Listen to
Natalie!!!
Lindsey
on 14/01/2011 at 8:11 pm
Egads, perfect timing. I think the important things here
are to heed what they say and not try to fantasize. If the man
says, “I have issues,” please believe him. In a way, he is trying
to do the right thing by telling you. And he will respect you more
if you listen and don’t play the “I’m not listening” game. Opting
out just means that. You just stop interacting and stoking the
fires. I have someone, too, that I enjoy immensely and treasure
those good times, but a relationship isn’t just the good times.
It’s the good times, bad times, and everything in between. Much
love to all. Be strong ladies!
Jupiter23
on 14/01/2011 at 10:38 pm
Whenever a guy tells you something like “I’m an asshole. I
don’t know why you like me” (which has happened to me), I don’t
think they’re trying to do the right thing. I think they are trying
to dissolve themselves of current and future blame. Because if you
get angry and say “God, you’re an asshole,” they can say “What did
you expect?” I just don’t buy that they are trying to do the right
thing when they do so many wrong, some really f-d up
things.
Nicole
on 15/01/2011 at 1:41 pm
I agree with you, Jupiter23. They may be telling us who they really are, but it’s not out of any consideration for us. It’s like you said, it’s so they can be free of blame, when you call them on it. My ex-AC did that very thing to me. “See, I told you I was an asshole.” However, at the time he told me, he just came across as if he was unappreciated and misunderstood.
So, I also think it’s a sort of bait to reel you in. When a guy talks about himself in a negative way, most of us women tend to jump to a knee-jerk reaction of reassuring them that they are not as bad as all that.
We look at their negative statements about themselves as them being hurt little puppy dogs, and all they need is someone to love and understand them, and they will be healed and whole and happy because of our love. HA!!!!
Think about it, we empathize with our female friends all the time. So why wouldn’t we fall into the same pattern with these AC’s?
Sweetie187
on 15/01/2011 at 2:08 pm
Jupiter i agree with you 100%. They’re just trying to manage down your expectation that they will treat you right.
These fools would not know “the right thing” if it jumped up and bit them on the nose.
grace
on 14/01/2011 at 8:15 pm
You are, in fact, being treated with the UTMOST DISRESPECT.
It’s almost laughable except I feel your pain and have experienced
it myself. You really must wake up to what is actually going on
here. It’s bloody awful!
Used
on 14/01/2011 at 10:38 pm
I feel the exact same way about the post, and, like you, b/c I went through the exact same situation with an EUM. This had been the ONLY time I had EVER been treated this way by ANY man, and that 3 1/2 months made me feel awful (about myself, too–b/c I felt I had no voice).
He hadn’t contacted me 3 1/2 weeks (the longest stretch of time, or “disappearing act,” ever on his part) when he caught me with another man. His jaw dropped; he was shocked, stunned, speechless, and flinching his eyes; then defiant and resolute that I should talk to him. I just paid attention to the man whose time I WAS on: my date. He left within a few minutes, saying “goodbye” as he left, with me responding with the same: goodbye.
Funny/weird part is: he married the very woman who he treated the way Marci (and I) (and you, Grace) is being treated…b/c she “killed him with kindness,” as they say; AND b/c his options became smaller and smaller each time he played this game with a new woman…and there were many women…and women do talk.
I actually think he got suckered in by his OWN “Mr. Smarty Guy” game! It’s actually VERY laughable, in this way, b/c he married a woman who is dull and whose face is so hideous you have to turn away when you look at it…like Medusa!
Used
on 15/01/2011 at 4:35 pm
Marci could also say “Sooooo…we’re dating other people;
right?” And don’t back off from this unless and until he agrees to
the relationship YOU want. And DEFINE it. And TELL him that things
have not progressed in a manner to show that the relationship you
want is about to happen, that he therefore needs to change his
ways! The above shows strength, and is the ONLY thing you can do
besides (or before going) NC.
Allison
on 15/01/2011 at 9:39 pm
Used,
” b/c he married a woman who is dull and whose face is so hideous you have to turn away when you look at it…like Medusa!”
This is not nice, and makes me wonder what your feelings are for him? As women we should be sticking by one another, not tearing each other down.
Used
on 16/01/2011 at 4:02 am
FYI, not only did I stick by the same woman, who I knew
when I dated him, I told him that she was a nice person! (Even when
I knew she was not!) FYI also, SHE talks to a mutual friend about
how “easy” I was with him (when we never made it past 2nd base),
when SHE slept with him! I NEVER have EVER called her names, or
labelled her! Change your opinion? Oh, and btw, when he is present,
SHE ignores ME when she sees me, and has our mutual acquaintance
(former friend of mine, now ex-friend, for obvious reasons!) do the
same! Frankly, if someone who is always “looking for better” has
the chance to date not only such a nice but also such a terrific
girl like me WHO TALKS WELL OF THEIR DATE’S EX and who ALSO has an
interesting, happy personality (and great looks), intelligence, a
great job, a great family, etc., etc., he should grab a girl like
that up in a heartbeat, NOT risk losing her while he looks “for
better” and she starts dating others b/c she is confused! NOt to
mention that he he dated MANY MANY women wayyyyy nicer than her.
Explanation?
Allison
on 16/01/2011 at 6:28 am
Used, Aren’t you married now? Why are still so involved
with this guy and his wife, and why does it bother you? You’re
better than this, why sink down to her level?
Used, you’ve been commenting for a long time and after reading your last two comments, I will say this:
It is difficult to be involved with someone who not only rejects you but seems to impact your social standing and your friendships. What he and your friend did lacked integrity and decency but it is time to remove yourself from under any illusions – you have been married to someone else for a long time. You say he’s a great, decent guy and you are growing in your relationship together. Yet you are emotionally invested in this man. You need to deal with your anger and have an honest conversation with yourself. That man was a jackass but you didn’t own him and no matter how wonderful you think you are, especially in the looks and intelligence dept that you have emphasised over the years, it takes more than that for a relationship and it doesn’t give you rights over people you consider uglier… The Medusa reference was an ugly comment to make about another and in fact the way you deride the woman is ugly. You may have a happy personality but you’re certainly not acting happy by holding so tight to this situation. Whatever his reasons are for choosing her, they are none of your business. He doesn’t owe you an explanation and the fact is, you have made your choice. It may bewilder you as to why he would be with someone who you describe as Medusa, but it takes more than looks and all the other things you list. To carry so much negative feeling over an extended period of time must be exhausting. Maybe you should make this the year that you resolve your feelings about this situation and move on emotionally.
Cariad
on 16/01/2011 at 10:13 pm
Hi Used,
If I were you I would look at it from her point of view. Who knows what your ex AC says to her… If he’s like mine he will be dropping you and other ex girlfriends into the conversation every now and then and that will make her feel so insecure. It sounds like she sees you as her competition. If I put myself in her shoes… It must be very difficult for her too. She probably lives in a world of insecurity and anxiety cultivated by the AC. Wouldn’t wish that on anyone, and she probably knows better than anyone what kind of pain your ex AC is capable of inflicting.
I don’t know if an AC can change. I think they can evolve and adapt and I suspect they can end up with some fallbacks for long periods of time. I didn’t believe it enough to want to spend any more time with my AC. We know what they’re like – he will probably do a Mick Jagger and backtrack and deny they were ever properly married! I hope he doesn’t.
Just think… if your ex AC knew how you and his wife are towards each other, I bet it brings a warm glow to his ego. And it’s not in his interests for you two to get along.
Maybe we’ll never understand their behaviour, and maybe that’s okay. I doubt even they understand. What’s important is that we recognise their behaviour (and ours). And love ourselves – you are not being kind to yourself right now, sounds like you are tormenting yourself over his wife. I think that’s a distraction. My AC made me feel that the other women were a threat but they weren’t – he was. When you look at the bigger picture (the AC as a species), it all starts to make sense, it all falls into place.
I have been reading/studying Natalie’s blog, and reading up on subjects that I didn’t think applied to my situation. When I found out my ex AC was back with his ex, I was fine about it. Because I expected it, because i’d read up on Fallback girls. It all made sense. There is such a pattern to the way these men operate it’s ridiculous. That’s why they should never be put up on a pedestal – they are so predictable and unfortunately so common.
My advice… download Natalie’s Get Out Of Stuck – it helped me a lot, wrote page after page. Reading this helps a lot too. I can’t talk to anyone I know about what’s been going on . It’s difficult carrying it around. It’s very difficult but reading and writing is bringing me some sense of peace. Feeling like i’m not the only one out there going through this makes me feel less isolated as well. Take care.
Hi Allison – thank you and all the best to you too.
Fearless
on 17/01/2011 at 11:24 pm
@Used
I have been follwing (or trying to follow) your posts about the ex EUM and his wife and ex mutual friends etc… and who did what and said what to whom etc… I feel for you!!
Seriously, I have enough trouble just wrapping my head round the stuff related to me and the ex plonker EUM, I can’t imagine also having to deal with hangers-on, tittle-tattle and back-stabbing from his ‘circle’. Do you really need to have anything to do with any of these people anymore? Do you need to care what they think or say or do? they sound like a shower of arses. Give them all a very wide berth!! (and, by the way, just in case you didn’t know – I’m good at advice!- just rubbish at my own life! 🙂 )
Cariad
on 16/01/2011 at 1:47 pm
I agree with you Allison. We should be sticking by each
other, and I think that’s what’s so comforting and empowering about
this site – the sense of compassion and strength and support we get
from each other. I think it’s tangible here and it’s not only
keeping me sane right now but it’s also helping me to grow. I have
so much respect for you all and for women (and men!) that i’m doing
what i’m doing (NC) not just for me but for other women too. My AC
effectively played me off other women in that he’d eye them up in
my company and talk constantly about his ex girlfriends (even in
bed once). I found myself comparing myself to them which is very
unhealthy, self-esteem destroying and it’s also missing the point.
His actions were not a reflection on me or them but were about him.
Instead of me wondering ‘what’s wrong with me?’ I should’ve been
focussing on the fact that his actions mean there is something very
wrong with him and his attitude towards women. You see it all the
time in the media… a man with ‘the most beautiful woman in the
world’ who has talent, success etc. but the man will go off with
someone else anyway. And we LOOK at the two women and compare them
and think ‘why would he throw it all away for her?’ We’ll never
understand by looking at them because it’s not about them. It’s
about HIM. His values, his attitude towards women, his ego, his
insecurities… whatever. It’s about him. You won’t find any of the
answers or the way forward by looking at the other woman and
comparing and contrasting. We know these men have trouble valuing
us, what makes us think they can appreciate anything about us,
whether that’s looks? In his little ego-mind it’s probably enough
for him to know he can pull a very attractive woman and that’s
enough. They are predatory. Often they don’t know what to do with
their prey once they’ve got it. The best they can hope for is to
establish them as Fallbacks, and often that means feigning a
relationship if that’s what it takes and all the other Fallbacks
have fled. Anyway I have worked past the comparison stage and I
can’t tell you how liberating it is. I don’t personally know the
woman my AC is now with (he went back to his Fallback girl after I
walked out on him) but I feel warmth and compassion towards her. I
can completely relate to her.
Used
on 16/01/2011 at 5:24 pm
The point I am making IS that, even with Mr. Fortnight Guys
like Marci’s, Grace’s, and the one I knew, they may, over time,
empathize and fall in love with the Marcis, the Graces, the Useds,
and the Fallbacks-before-and-after-the-Useds, DESPITE that they
were, in fact, always “looking for better” during the course of
their “relationships”. An AC may not ALWAYS stay an AC. I am not
“into” the ex-AC in any way–I don’t feel anything when I see him,
even though he acts very obnoxious (like he is “one up” on me). As
to his wife, I have SEEN her point me out to friends of hers, and
the whole table she is at goes quiet while her girlfriends check me
out as I pass by. Then she patronizes me via telling my husband how
cute our son is! She is NO angel here. So she belongs with him, b/c
she thinks and is like him. As to the mutual acquaintance/former
friend, she has made it a point to become friends with women and
men with whom I go back many years, who I am not as close with b/c,
yes, I have moved on with my life and even moved away, to be in a
family-oriented environment. I can’t get away from her! And she
ALWAYS ignores me and is 2-faced when the ex-AC is around. I cut
her off when she wanted to go have lunch in the ex-AC’s work area,
which is BLOCKS away from where she and I work. She wanted to make
me look like a stalker! (She pulled a stunt like this when I was
dating him by taking me to his hangout on a night we were to have
gone out, but I didn’t want to accept his offer of a date when he
hadn’t called me for over a week; I was trying to teach him to
treat me well in the early stages of dating him, and she goes and
takes me to where he hung out to make me look like a stalker, when
she knew the facts of how I wasdealing iwth him!) And, yes, he gets
off scot-free in all of this! Even with the havoc he caused with
another mutual friend he dated! As to the comparisons, I feel that,
if he was looking for better, he should have damn well have gone
through with it and found it! After all the crap he caused! Cariad,
NML, Allison, thank you for your comments. Cariad, we dated the
SAME guy. Of course, GOOD RIDDANCE. But I have to deal with the
baggage–the jackass as NML calls him is just that, a jackass–all
of this rolls right off of him. (BTW, his pals ALL are nice to and
respectful of me. It’s the women that are the problem here!) Yes, I
have to (learn to) let go.
Allison
on 16/01/2011 at 6:01 pm
Cariad, I feel for all the other people that encounter
these individuals. All the best with your journey! 🙂
Allison
on 16/01/2011 at 6:35 pm
Used,
When you learn to let go of the drama it will be much better. None of this stuff matters, and the fact that it happened long ago, makes it matter even less.
Give yourself some peace and move on from this situation. Remember, you have a great life, no reason to hang on to the drama.
All the best!
Used
on 17/01/2011 at 8:28 pm
Cariad–
Yes, it is NOT in his interests for me and his wife to get along. Which may explain why he told her (when they were dating) that we got to 2nd base–despite knowing that she may disclose this to a gossipy friend (my ex-friend, above) who was likely to (and did) tell me about how the wife knew! Anyways, he told her about us to get her jealous/insecure, of course, and/or to show that he is a “stud muffin” (love AliceB’s comment below)–just as he told another (good) mutual female friend that he had dated x, y, and z (and I was named as one of those letters!)…so that this info would get pased along from her to his then-ex, now-wife. Funny, that same good friend is not friends with wifey now, and she was the ONLY woman we know in common who had the guts to tell her that she saw him with another woman one time! (Of course, the wife refused to believe it, and/or ignored the info.) At one poitn before this friendship broke up, and when the AC was off-again with the now-wife, he introduced the good friend to another woman “so that they could get acquainted, as they live in the same area”, dated the New Woman on the Block–ONCE (but made it a point to introduce her to his friends–why? to show he had “moved on”? if so, was this why he dated me, too?). I am SUREthat all women involved knew about each other and how he dated the New Woman only ONCE and never called her again. She was used, like I was.
I am angry. I was chumped!
Susan
on 14/01/2011 at 8:23 pm
My guy fits the EM profile to a “T” ………but can these
men evolve into someone better over time? I started out as a booty
call..( had no idea what THAT was till I read about it online…and
realized it was me. then we grew close as friends………5 years
later, he has love and respect for me, and confesses that if I were
the right age ( he’s 29 and I’m 50…we would be a couple. He does
not want to have sex with me anymore……out of respect…he
says…..and also that he feels ‘weird ” about sex with me because
he loves me, not because hes not attracted to me. And also he tells
me that he dosen’t want to lose me. I know that he dates other
women, and I have dated men as well…..neither of us are in a
committed relationship. I feel rejected………..will welcome any
thoughts on my situation.
Leigh
on 14/01/2011 at 9:12 pm
Susan, If you were the right age you would be a couple? He
doesn’t want to have sex with you anymore out of respect and he
feels weird about it? Then he says he doesn’t want to lose you? If
a guy said that to me I would go NC with him in a second. He’s
setting you up to be there for him in the future to stroke his ego.
Age should never be an issue between two people who truly love one
another. He has placed obstacles in the way without ending things
with you. It’s really not fair to you! Ask yourself if this makes
YOU happy? Never mind about what HE says. How do YOU feel. If his
reasons and “underhand kind” behaviour is making you question then
take it as a red flag. You deserve better!
grace
on 15/01/2011 at 9:31 am
Susan It’s a 21 year age difference. My guideline is that
less than 10 years between adults is nothing. Any more than that it
gets tricky. For instance, you can’t have children together (I
assume). When you retire he will still be in his 40s. And it’s
harsh but he’d probably like someone younger with a few more years
on the planet. Exceptionally, two people who truly love each other,
can overcome an age gap of 20 years but I don’t see that here. You
started out as a booty call and have both messed about with other
people. Be aware that lots of young men are under the mistaken
belief that older women are “easier” to deal with because there’s
less expectation and drama. They actually believe we are up for
casual sex and don’t want a lasting relationship. Men really can be
that stupid. That may be why he got involved with you in the first
place. I’d actually put money on it. Moving forward, he may have
developed some genuinely fond feelings for you but you are not the
one for him. I would forget about being friends with him unless you
can genuinely be pleased when he announces his engagement to a 25
year old! Of course he doesn’t want to lose you, I haven’t wanted
to lose many of my exes. I’d have liked a few of them to stick
around and take me out occasionally, maybe flirt a bit and give me
attention. But that’s …. pointless and immature. You have to let
each other go to forge your own paths in life. Not stick around
holding someone back and potentially/probably screwing up their
head and future relationships.
Melanie
on 17/01/2011 at 8:20 pm
Grace, “Be aware that lots of young men are under the mistaken
belief that older women are “easier” to deal with because there’s
less expectation and drama. They actually believe we are up for
casual sex and don’t want a lasting relationship. Men really can be
that stupid. That may be why he got involved with you in the first
place.” Wow, that’s such a true statement. And I think I know why men came to that belief. (I saw a really popular TV show, I think it was Dr. Phil but not sure??) The episode showcased a group of self-proclaimed “Cougars”. They were all portrayed as animals in their last fit of heat, just desperate for anything younger than them that would be willing to use them for sex. They bragged that they didn’t have any expectations of relationship. The show made NO distinction that this not the norm it is the *exception*, or that, just possibly, most older women may actually have standards and expectations, dare to want to fall in love, have a real, exclusive relationship, or even get married. It made it seem like this is the new norm, that women turn 35 and then automatically give up any hopes of being loved or loveable, resigning themselves to the ‘fact’ that the only way to have contact with a man is to be used for sex. The show was cringe-worthy and pathetic to say the least. I think recent freakshow displays like that episode perpetuate the myth that older women have *NO* expectations. A lot of ‘boys’ hit on older women simply because they have been led by said freakshow displays to believe that she will just come right over, undress, spread her legs, and be grateful for what she gets … silly boys.
Susan, he is indeed a Mr Unavailable and while I don’t doubt that the age gap could be an issue, do not be any under illusions and believe that it is *just* the age gap that stands between you. He is pulling the classic move of blaming ‘timing’ and then blaming something that fundamentally cannot be changed – the age gap.
Fact is that the reason why you cannot be together is because he is not interested in being together but he is interested in enjoying the fringe benefits. It is amazing how we will allow a man to speak to and about us when we are lonely and eager to have company on any terms rather than no terms. Quite frankly the things he has said to you are outrageous and disrespectful. In fact, they’re patronising and you seen to think you should put up with it because of your age.
He is soft soaping you because he is giving you just enough to ensure he doesn’t endanger getting laid.
Depending on why they’re emotionally unavailable in the first place, these guys can and do change but they don’t do it with the person who is willing to put up with their crap. If you think that stroking his ego, giving him a shag, and hanging around letting him talk this rubbish at you will win you prizes and pledge your allegiance to him, you’re very mistaken. If you’re happy to have a casual arrangement, knock yourself out but if you’re actually hoping and thinking that this may become something, I’d come back down to earth. Listen to what he is saying to you instead of turning it into something else.
No matter what the reason, when someone says they cannot be in a relationship with you, it means they cannot be in a relationship with you. If they were that interested, they wouldn’t be resisting you.
Tess
on 14/01/2011 at 8:27 pm
Yea, I saw blinding red flags but wrote it off because of
severe disability- he was married! In the beginning looking back,
it likely WAS the reason for all the if, ands, and buts. But as
time went on I used that as an excuse for his crumb throwing
behavior – five years’ worth! In the end he was a real creep,
disrespectful, and so screwed up himself (my take? he was too
cowardly to leave or to stay! and so co dependent on the woman he
said he hated) he didn’t know how to love at all. I made a mistake,
I fell in love, but he was unavailable from the get-go and I
thought I could change that. All I got in the end was five years of
my life wasted. Get out now, Marci, and don’t look back unless he
brings you want you want and what you KNOW should be
expected.
Learning
on 14/01/2011 at 8:50 pm
Natalie is absolutely right about what his behavior means.
What’s amazing to me is that I was thinking about my last EUM the
other day and chuckling that he sees himself entirely differently
than how I see him. In a lot of cases, these guys don’t realize how
crap their behavior is! And for that reason, it’s really important
to not get caught in illusions of who he could be and pay attention
to what he says and does NOW. He thinks, “I’m a decent guy. I’ve
let her know up front that I’m not available for a relationship
because I’m not over my divorce/too busy with my life/still
mourning the death of my cat, Mr. Muffintop. Plus, I only show up
every so often, so my behavior is quite clear about what exactly
this arrangement is. What’s wrong then, when I’ve given her all the
clues that this is all I can give, of showing up and having some
good times? This arrangement must be good for her too because she
accepts it. If she wanted more, she’d drop me and go out and find a
guy who can give her more.” Thus, he will be content to do this,
swooping in and romancing you then vanishing pretty much
indefinitely, rinse, repeat. I think that deep down, these guys
know they are misleading women, but that’s the kind of spiel that’s
going on in their heads to avoid feeling like they’re being selfish
and manipulative so as to keep getting benefits they know they
shouldn’t be getting and secretly feel they shouldn’t be getting
and justify noncomittal behavior. He’s really not a gentleman.
Gentlemen care if they’re hurting someone or not. He’s being really
selfish, and he doesn’t even know it. Do him and yourself a favor,
Marci, and drop him. When he says he’s not available, believe him.
Of course it’s easy for him to swoop in and give you the ride of
your life every two weeks! He’s not accountable for anything else.
He basically just has to put on a performance every fortnight…he
doesn’t have to be a real person. It’s way harder to keep the
chemistry up over the long haul.
Jupiter23
on 14/01/2011 at 10:44 pm
This is so true. My EUM of a few years ago totally new he
was a jerk. But I dated one for four weeks about six months ago (I
became a psycho in those weeks and had to go. It reminded me too
much of my past EUM relationship), and he totally thought he was a
great catch. Really? Really? He was such a loser, and I cringe when
I think that I ever liked him.
Learning
on 14/01/2011 at 11:25 pm
Well, I won’t deny that they come in slightly different
flavors—some of them know they are a-holes and ashamed of it but
doing it anyway, some of them know they are a-holes and proud of it
and get off on it, and some of them think they are good guys who
just don’t want to commit but want to have “fun” and so trying to
still come round for sex and ego strokes but “hint” at the fact
that you shouldn’t expect any more than that—but as this site
shows, underneath the candy coating it’s usually just the same
bull**** with all of them. I really fell for my last EUM with the
“casual” girlfriend who he never had (surprise) the strength to
leave. But I have the strength to leave him. I have left him. It’s
been a difficult journey, but one thing I tell myself is: that’s
life. Life is full of disappointments and successes, and men aren’t
any different. If people in my life have gone through death,
disease, miscarriages, loss of business, and many other heartaches
and lived to be the stronger for it, I can dump this one tool who
expects me to break him off a piece whenever he feels like it and
be the stronger for it.
namaste
on 15/01/2011 at 6:05 pm
Well said Learning. The way you describe his way of seeing
his partner and how the relationship works for him is right on!
When I understood his reality his behaviour finally made
sense.
Learning
on 15/01/2011 at 8:38 pm
They’re cowards, essentially. They will give just enough sweet talk to keep you hooked (“you’re so sexy, I can’t control myself around you, we have such a great connections blah blah blah”) and then on the other hand not call, show up sporadically, and say that they’re “going through some hard times” or not over their ex (the sob story) because they don’t want to feel like complete user tools and they think this should give the women they’re involved with enough clues that they’re bad news. They want it both ways. But for me, I’m done with these guys. Man up. You can’t have it all your way in life. You either treat me with respect and care, or you’re out.
Sunshine
on 14/01/2011 at 8:53 pm
“When someone says ‘I’m messed up’ it means… ‘I’m messed
up’ it doesn’t mean ‘I’m messed up for everyone else but you’. It
does however mean ‘I’m messed up, don’t expect anything from me’.”
This is true as true gets. In a previous relationship that I got
entangled in right smack dab out of another abusive relationship
(the ex and I were still going back and forth with the full
knowledge and blessing of the new guy) – I told him, “you don’t
understand, I’M CRAZY!” We then proceeded to get into a horrific
craptastic messed-up insane drama of him playing rescuer, kind,
noble, patient (yet flipping on me and striking out abusively when
my guard was down), and me playing crazy woman that just needed the
Right Man’s Love that lasted 5 years. We broke up over 2 years ago
and I’m still sexually traumatized. I JUST went NC with him
yesterday, after a very long, very slow, very painful peeling off
of the band-aid (we remained in contact after moving to different
states, no romance talk…but I was dependent on his attention
though I had never liked him much and was nearly always
dissatisfied after talking to him). All this to totally reiterate
the point – if he says he is messed up then RUN RUN RUN AWAY. It is
TRUE, and please do not make the mistake of thinking you know their
own mind better than they do. Plus, continuing to accept the
behavior does send the message that it IS acceptable. I got a huge
dose of reality the first time I dated a man who set a boundary
with me and let me know explicitly that he did NOT reward
drama-seeking behavior with attention and escalation of drama. That
literally changed my relationship paradigm and set me on a whole
new path of getting emotionally healthy.
Kim
on 14/01/2011 at 8:53 pm
Yes Marci, he’s playing you and I bet he’s secretly
disprespects you, otherwise he’d snap you up and not risk some
other guy stepping in. He doesnt want a proper relationship with
you otherwise he’d be banging on your door snapping you up for
himself. He’s loving you up and giving you his best self for that
date every two weeks, he knows he has to do that otherwise you’d
kick him to the kerb. He’s laughing that he’s got you there on the
sidelines giving him an ego stroke. Men know that women who respect
themselves only take on quality relationships, they say it to each
other, most women would boot a guy out for acting in this way. Men
stay with the women who act with self-respect and who insist on
being treated like princesses. This guy is a piss-taker and you’re
letting him. Just call him on it, turn tail and walk away. He’ll
have heard it all before anyway and will have a stock of lame BS
excuses to give you. Dont engage with it, walk.
Josie
on 14/01/2011 at 9:09 pm
Susan, your post was all about what he wants and not what
YOu want. How about giving that some consideration. Are you really
cool with being friends. Do you really think an age difference
stops two people who love each other from having sex. Do you really
want to have a sexual relationship? Sometimes you can be in a
emotionally unfullfilling friendship as well and friendship were
you are not getting your own needs met whilst someone else is
perfectly happy is not much of a friendship. Maybe YOU have to
decide if this sort of friendship is really good enough for you and
is it really a friendship at all?
Leigh
on 14/01/2011 at 9:22 pm
I should have listened to my ex EU. He told me. “Women run
away from me.” He was damn right! One year later I wanted to run
but by then it was too late I was invested after that it was a
downhill ride into emotional hell. We started out in 2005. I was
fit, gorgeous (still am gorgeous heheh) and had a very full life. I
knew I attracted him because I was ALIVE. If I think back to our
very first times together and that first year – it was magnetic!
Subsequently, I have wasted almost five years of my life getting
out and getting over him in trade for what? One year of magic? It
wasn’t worth it! I would advise any woman that is hurting or in
pain or in emotional distress over a man to take back what is yours
– YOU! I did and I’m feeling better every day getting my life back
and my fitness back.
BRwisernow
on 14/01/2011 at 10:19 pm
Oh boy…mine said he was “the devil”! I thought it was laughable then, but now I believe it. “I’m not ready for a relationship right now (then listing the reasons/excuses preventing that from happening)”, “your my BFF” (came to realize that maaaaybe that actually meant ‘best f**k friend’ to him), “I love you, but I’m not ‘in love’ with you”. Listen, listen, listen…and MOVE ON!
Lynn
on 14/01/2011 at 11:31 pm
People really do tell you a lot about themselves; it can be
difficult to listen and really hear when clues are dropped into
casual conversation. My ex-AC soon began to call himself “evil” for
certain things he did, he’d always say he was trying to “lure me”
out with him; and near then end began to use the word “asshole” to
describe himself when he was doing something that looked nice on
the surface but was really a bribe/distraction from his other
behaviour. At the time it felt like he was admitting that he was
self-aware. He was, but he wasn’t saying he was going to change
that. He was letting me know he knew he was treating me poorly. The
combination of the “luring” vocabulary and his propensity to treat
me like a child and take me to animated movies should have set me
running way earlier. Just the other day a man I know at work, who
knows himself to be physically attractive, tried to draw me into a
conversation when we were alone about how “confused” he was about
why women “were scared of him” because he was “so big and
intimidating.” He doesn’t realize a friend of mine who dated him 3
yrs ago used to shiver when his name came up and was really messed
up because she felt he liked to use his size to physically and
emotionally intimidate her. It was fascinating, and creepy, to
watch this guy announce himself to me like that. It felt so weird.
The kind of alarm bell I would have ignored before. I felt the old
urge to play armchair psychologist and get drawn in and then feel
‘helpful’ and ‘liked.’ No way. New boundary there.
Snugglethingy
on 14/01/2011 at 9:37 pm
Hi. I am currently messed up in one of these long distance,
blowing hot and cold relationships, and I love the responses to
this letter. I feel like getting messages from baggage reclaim is
saving my life. It certainly saved me through the holidays. I feel
like I am going crazy sometimes, but I am getting better,
slowly…it’s HARD…it’s one of the hardest things you’ll ever do,
because of who you are…you are someone so loving, so able to find
the good in people, so in adoration of this person that you don’t
want to give up on it. Give up on it anyway…because people who
would take advantage of the goodness in us don’t deserve to be
recipients of it. Let’s choose ourselves first…that’s my 2
cents.
agathangel
on 15/01/2011 at 2:30 am
…it’s HARD…it’s one of the hardest things you’ll ever do,
because of who you are…you are someone so loving, so able to find
the good in people, so in adoration of this person that you don’t
want to give up on it. Give up on it anyway…because people who
would take advantage of the goodness in us don’t deserve to be
recipients of it. Let’s choose ourselves first… This is so true and
exactly how I feel. My EUM blew into town last nite and started
bombarding me with texts/ calls just like I knew he would. Was
strong last nite and texted him my feelings which of course he
chose to ignore. After a couple of hrs of his texts I almost let
him come over last nite but in the end said no. There he was at
8:15 this morning. Had a rotten day feeling weak like I wanted to
see him but then got my strength back and texted him to say, No,
not interested! I feel so much at peace now…
namaste
on 15/01/2011 at 6:14 pm
‘people who would take advantage of the goodness in us
don’t deserve to be the recipients of it.” AMEN to that!
runnergirlno1
on 15/01/2011 at 8:14 pm
Wahoo….good for you. Your post gave me strength today.
Blaise Parker
on 14/01/2011 at 9:41 pm
“He calls twice a month – I hear from British Gas more
often… ” This seriously made me laugh out loud. Yeah, when we are
“confused” it really means: We are unable to accept what is RIGHT
IN FRONT OF US.
Learning
on 14/01/2011 at 10:21 pm
It made me laugh out loud as well. Thanks Natalie, as always. 🙂
Snugglethingy
on 14/01/2011 at 9:42 pm
I use “snugglethingy” because that’s his nickname for
me…awwww…isn’t that so sweet!?! Sometimes, when throwing me a
bone, he’ll say I love you, I miss you snugglethingy…do you have
any idea how long it’s been since he’s been available to snuggle
any thingy of mine??? you don’t EVEN want to know. It’s
CRAZY…
Lynn
on 14/01/2011 at 11:35 pm
What is YOUR name for yourself? The guy treating you like
this is calling you his THING to snuggle? Yuck.
snugglethingy
on 17/01/2011 at 8:41 am
What do I call myself? You probably don’t want to know that either. Mislead, or naïve, or stupid, somedays I call myself strong, very successful, and recovering. I am a very forgiving person. I think sometimes people don’t realize the carnage they leave behind with their actions. I don’t think he intended to hurt me like this. I think he needed someone to make him feel better during a very financially stressful time and now that has passed and I’m left to realize not only were all his proclamations of love false, but he doesn’t care enough to even speak to me anymore, although I still hear from him on rare occasions saying he still loves me and what not. I really don’t understand it.
Being emotionally dumped like this by someone I care about so much goes beyond hurt- its damn near fatal. But, I AM doing better, I keep saying that. Maybe someday it will be true.
Snugglethingy
on 17/01/2011 at 3:19 pm
See…Snugglethingy is actually very nice compared to what I call myself…
I keep asking myself what it is I’m hanging on for…I don’t really care anymore about all those head in the cloud fantasies I held a few months ago. All those hours and hours he used to dedicate to talking to me…I just miss that so much. He’s really someone with a great personality, someone I could really open up to…I thought…
I guess he should pick women who don’t really care about him to mess around with…those of us who actually care get pretty PISSED when things like this happen, and a pissed-off scorned woman is not someone whose much fun to run head-long into…especially not me…I can be just biting sometimes with my anger and bitterness. It’s not a good feeling…
It’s hard… it’s hard… it’s hard… this weekend was hard… everyday is hard… it’s all hard… even when we were getting along okay, it was hard then too…
A relationship with your soul mate shouldn’t be so hard, should it? And I did think at one time that we were so close it was like having a soul mate…he did make me take a look at myself and realize some things about myself… I felt enlightened. Ha ha…unfortunately I’m so devastated now, I can’t even begin to remember what all those enlightened thoughts about myself were…now I’m just numb to the world…
Yuck, indeed.
Snugglethingy
on 14/01/2011 at 9:44 pm
“He calls twice a month – I hear from British Gas more
often…” This gave me a great laugh, it’s brilliant, and SO relevant
and true!!!
MaryC
on 14/01/2011 at 9:47 pm
As Nat and others including myself have said before…. people tell us who they are and we should listen to them, they’re usually right.
Brad K.
on 15/01/2011 at 3:50 pm
Actually, it is worse than not just believing what he says.
If you respect him, then you have to take what he says as being
true. When he says he is messed up, and you act like he is actually
healthy and intending to build a life-long relationship – you are
calling him a liar. Lying, or calling someone a liar that isn’t
deliberately deceiving you – either way there is a lack of respect
that will doom any relationship. The other thing is, he tells you
he is messed up. This is a way of setting his goals, and when you
don’t walk (or run!) away, then you have just given him permission
to never heal, to never ‘get a life’, to never be more of a life
mate than he is at that moment. You might later change your mind or
expectations, but you have given your permission for him to live as
he is, pursuing whatever pleasures or whatever else he chooses at
the moment. I don’t think most EUM’s choose to live that way; most
just don’t know any better, and most are fundamentally incapable of
being trustworthy for more than a date or brief interlude. They may
become quite talented at recreational sex and wooing women – which
is a life skill that will cloud any relationship. For a life
partner you want someone interested in being a life partner,
someone that is emotionally healthy, knows what a home is and wants
a partner to help him build one. For this you need character, not
someone that attracts women as a life style. You need someone with
healthy emotional bonds to his family, friends, and coworkers –
this is something you cannot ‘give’ someone that can’t keep a
friendship with others over time. You need someone that is stable
in life, not jumping from here to there every few months or years
(always changing jobs, dating partners, friends, cars, hobbies,
etc.). You want someone that has found a way to be content, not
still looking for something (anything!) to make them
happy.
IdiotIam
on 16/01/2011 at 7:50 pm
Brad K. your comment truly hit home. Recreational sex was
what he was best at. And the cooking and the talking. The fact that
I allowed my separated ex to dictate the temperature/terms of this
relationship is killing me. Whenever I asked for us to move
forward, he used his divorce and his children as an excuse. My
self-esteem deteriorated while I was hanging on to the potential of
“us”. His kids would be traumatized if they were to meet me, he
said, but he was perfectly fine to sleep with me. How do I get my
dignity back? I am so ashamed for having done this to
myself.
Josie
on 14/01/2011 at 10:02 pm
“snugleythingy” you mean like a comfort blanket or a teddy bear or a rag doll? Give yourself a new name that reflects how YOU feel about YOU not how he feels about YOU!
Kate
on 14/01/2011 at 10:56 pm
This whole post describes my last “relationship” to a tee.
Natalie is so spot on, but for so long I lived in absolute denial,
sweeping those red flags literally hitting me in the face under the
carpet, giving him the benefit of the doubt, seeing only his good
points, accepting those measley crumbs he gave me once a month if I
was lucky, and I always made excuses for his vile behaviour towards
me (poor guy, he is “depressed”). He too was not one for the phone
claiming “there’s not much to say”. He too said he was “messed up,
why would you even want to be with me ?” That was one of his better
questions, must admit. Within days he was with another woman after
we broke up, how I feel for her. He had the HIDE though to say that
I could “wait for him” if I wanted and if it didn’t work out with
this other woman he could come back to me. It was always, always,
all about him and his needs with no regard for my feelings at all.
Even I had to get off the insanity wheel at that point and have
been no contact ever since. As you can imagine, my self esteem was
at an all time low in this “relationship”, slowly rebuilding that
since. I’m having counselling about it all in an effort to work out
my patterns, and aim adamantly not to repeat them in the future.
The psychologist has said that he was most likely a
misogynist/psychopath from what I have told her, not relationship
material at all. So, as other’s have said it is so important now to
just choose “me”, to love me, to respect me and not to just choose
the next guy because he has shown some interest. I’m a work in
progress. I might be single for quite a while now, but I’m ok with
that.
Cariad
on 15/01/2011 at 12:50 am
Hi Kate, Just reading about misogynists at wikipedia and it
links to something about the ‘Madonna–whore complex.’ It was
another epiphany moment for me (I seem to get those everytime I
come to your blog, NML). Think it explains my AC no. 2. I think my
AC no. 3 is a psychopath. Not been diagnosed (to my knowledge) but
he is one. Marci, you know what you have to do. Trust me you will
feel 10x stronger and more alive without this person in your life –
it might be the best thing you ever do, seriously. The only thing I
wish is that I didn’t get away sooner, and the fact I ever let
there be an AC no. 3. Oh well, i’m here now!!
Layla
on 15/01/2011 at 12:01 am
Hi ladies. Firstly as i was reading nat’s response i was
thinking wow man thats harsh! But harsh is exactly what we need
when we’re romanticizing and living in la la land, which is where I
think you are Marci. I’ve been there and after reading your letter
it just hit me like ”oh my God” this man is so blatantly
disrespecting this woman and she cant see it…and that is exactly
how i was. It’s weird cos I really thought me n my EUM were
soulmates, he told me he thought so too. In fact he started the
whole ”love thing” between us and even after he told me he loved
me it took me year to say it back…but i guess i was wrong. The
worst thing I think is after all is said and done, after you’ve
cried so much you think your eyes have no tears left, after you’ve
shouted and hated him so much and after it all the worst bit is
thinking damn i was one of those women i thought I would never
be!!! Now I feel nothing…i feel no hate, no love for him or for
anyone and i guess its soothing to feel so numb! The good thing is
though that i recently started talking to someone new and he kept
asking me not to judge him based on my past and i was really trying
not to but this guy just kept making me think ”hold on a second.”
So with the new guy i asked him if he had kids he said yes i have 5
then proceeded to tell me their names. The next day i called him
and said i dont want to continue talking to him cos 5 kids is
something i was just not willing to accept im only 27 for God’s
sake..and guess what he says..”Do I look like someone who has five
kids” n i was like but you listed their names for me twice and he
goes i was testing you!”…..I was like huh…point is i dont
speak to him no more cos i’d rather have no attention than this
kind of mind f*** attention and at least now i am stronger to just
say piss off i cant be dealing with people that dont wanna love me
100% and be with me and only me!!!! Sorry for going on…but this
is like therapy man looland you ladies always make me feel so much
better and I hope someone reads this and feels better 🙂
Lindsey
on 17/01/2011 at 4:18 am
I think you have to be careful about using the term soul mates, but I think soul mates means someone who causes you to get more in tune with yourself. It’s not necessarily the person you were meant to be with but someone who forces you to become more like yourself and heal those parts of yourself that need to be healed. So in some sense these EUMs and ACs, as creepy as they are, they cause growth in us women who love too much. I know I went through the most intense year of growth after my EUM relationship. I praise God that I met him because if I hadn’t met someone who ushered me into a painful situation, I would not have taken the powerful journey I did towards better self-love and growth. He is a soul mate, to me, because of this. No, he isn’t my true love or anything, but he caused a struggle, and I am coming out of it a better and stronger, more compassionate person.
Kimberly
on 15/01/2011 at 12:12 am
I love Natalies response. And she has said this many
times…a man who wants to be with you….will. This is black and
white. We need to love ourselves, stop thinking its okay to accept
crumbs…and share our men while they look for something they think
is better…fullfillment is a feeling…not one person…there are
healthier men out there…go out and risk finding one…as
elizabeth gilbert says…”why have I been chasing happiness my
whole life when bliss was here the entire time…”
Belle
on 15/01/2011 at 12:25 am
Marci, you’re dating my ex husband. Run girl, run fast!
😀
RuthT
on 15/01/2011 at 12:54 am
In response to MC story, sadly when we are out of practice
of dating and suddenly have adoring attention, we are temporarily
blinded as to this new strange EUM behaviour. We felt so good in
the time we were together that the attachment to that fantasy
outweighs the real truth of whats happening. And with no previous
experience of flip flopping behaviour, we make excuses and play
down our expectations. What I hear in your story is a loud voice
saying WHAT ABOUT ME? and you are dam right to be asking as it
looks like you are demoted to ‘fortnight option’ as Natalie says.
Take a step back and reimprint your mind with what a ‘good’ liason
looks like. They call, they are consistent, they remember things
and check how ‘that difficult meeting/new presentation’ went. They
set up times to see you because they respect your time. A good guy
doesn’t expect to drop in every few weeks and visit ‘the precious’.
They call. You never get to the island of Anxious because you don’t
need to. They call and they turn up, regularly. Sometimes when I
read a story now it is so clear whats going on, but I have been
where you are and wasted way too much time. Now I feel like, thanks
to BR, I have a xray EU spotter night vision. It really took some
pain and changes to get to this point though. You have to start
somewhere doubt leads to coming out of denial. You are on the right
track. Just define what it is you want in a relationship, any
criteria you want….. be rediculously specific. Then compare that
to your current situation and see how far apart those expectations
are…. eg. to be called everyday, to see my partner in the initial
stages 3 x a week, to feel happy together and safe and trusting
when not together, to be exclusive. To name just a few of my own.
What do you want? What are your values and bench marks. Is this a
path to your dreams or a diversion?
runnergirlno1
on 15/01/2011 at 1:27 am
Marci, you are so fortunate. You have discovered this
website, Natalie, and all the wonderful folks who post here. I
didn’t discover this safe network of incredible supportive people
until I had invested 2 years being involved with a Mr. Unavailable.
If you keep reading Natalie’s articles and the posts, you will find
you are not alone. Some have invested a lot longer, like 5 and 10
years, to no avail. Without this website, I may have wasted a few
more years in hell as well. (Thank you all.) “When someone says
‘I’m messed up’ it means… ‘I’m messed up’ it doesn’t mean ‘I’m
messed up for everyone else but you’. It does however mean ‘I’m
messed up, don’t expect anything from me’.” Natalie and the others
are right. He is telling you, run, run, run, and don’t look back.
My ex EUM’s line, via text, was: “I’m suprised you want to spend
any time with me”. My text response: “I ALWAYS want to spend time
with you” (and ALWAYS was ALWAYS capitalized). We were being honest
but I wasn’t hearing him. He was telling me to run, run, run, and
not look back. I didn’t want to hear him. Toward the end, as my
denial was cracking, I started to hear him. Honestly, once I heard
him, I was surprised I wanted to spend anytime with him as well. In
fact, when he ended it 26 days ago, we agreed that we were both
surprised that I tolerated the humiliation and endured the despair
for 2 years. You are fortunate to be here. This blog and Natalie
have been my support system helping me to see and hear what I was
trying to deny. The Truth. But, yikes, it hurts. No contact is
painful. The Truth is painful. Denial is worse. I couldn’t settle
any longer for a cracker when I realized I wanted the whole
hamburger, with cheese and bacon, and fries. (Natalie, the cracker
line will stick with me for a long time. After 2 years of eating
his cracker crumbs, I realized I’ve been eating hamburgers
non-stop, which is actually good because I needed to eat, finally.)
Marci, re-read that line. Good luck to you. We will be here. Hope
you can hear us before you invest any more time and end up as
hungry as I am. By the way, the time we spent together was
“magical” too. I hear you.
Learning
on 15/01/2011 at 8:43 pm
Love it. I also want the whole bacon cheeseburger, please.
Minky
on 17/01/2011 at 12:30 pm
I love it too! It’s amazing how we keep going back for crackers, because it’s so painful to ‘fast’ for a while, to really purge ourselves of these idiots! Cheeseburgers are well worth holding out for.
Nat’s line about the time spent together being ‘magical’ because Marci and her EUM hardly see each other really hit home for me, because i was long distance with my EUM too and the time did seem ‘magical’, it was the time in between that did my head in! Not having him was SO hard, but i’m so glad i did go NC. I am eating cheeseburgers now and i will never take that for granted ever again! What most people consider a ‘normal’ relationship is now this amazing thing to me – a guy who ACTUALLY wants to be with me! Wow! I don’t think that will ever lose it’s novelty and for that i have to be eternally grateful to the EUM.
Marii
on 15/01/2011 at 2:15 am
Lol at British Gas – l love Natalies style
FiguringItOut
on 15/01/2011 at 4:27 am
Excellent post Nat! And may I say you once again out did
yourself on timing of this one. I’ve been involved with an EUM and
recently dated (very briefly) a second, but that one didn’t last as
he showed red flag signs left and right..so thanks to this site I
was able to walk away without too much damage. My question for this
particular post is that my friend very well could have wrote this
exact thing to Nat. She is dating a EUM that has all the “classic”
signs. He blows hot and cold, only communicates through texting,
etc. In fact we had plans to go out, but she called to say that
this EUM saw she was going to go out (on a social network)and
wanted to know if he could make her dinner instead. She then asks
me to postpone so she could be with him. Is there anything I can
do? I’m really not upset that she canceled on me other than the
fact that it was because of him throwing her crumbs and she’s
jumping at the opportunity. I’ve told her about this site over and
over when talking about men, but other than that do I sit there and
let her figure it out? I know you can lead a horse to water, but…
I hate watching her be so self destructive because I’ve been there
and it isn’t healthy.
Nicole
on 15/01/2011 at 2:19 pm
I agree. It’s hard to watch our friends make these same mistakes. Just as I am sure my friends didn’t like watching me make my mistakes.
All we can really do is listen, empathize, and tell them the truth about what we see. And lead by example.
My question is this. Why are you NOT upset that she cancelled on you like that? I mean, I know plans get cancelled for various reasons, such as illness, emergencies, etc. But that is not the case here. One of your friends’ problems in her dating life is her lack of boundaries. Perhaps you could show her what self-respect looks like by telling her that she is crossing one of yours.
I know you want to be understanding and helpful, but, in this situation, you are just enabling her.
done as dinner
on 15/01/2011 at 9:11 pm
@ Nicole – you are so right! I had a friend that constantly dropped me whenever a new man came into her life. Only to come back after each relationship failed and I came to see “pass time with me” and use me as a shoulder to cry on until the next guy came along and *poof* she’d disappear again. This went on for over 20 years! Until I finally woke up and started putting energy into people who give back. Not that your case/friendship might be as extreme… but seriously, dudes come and go. Friendships, if carefully tended, last forever. I’ll never understand women who blow off their friends to simper over some moron when he calls at the last minute.
Loved British Gas – almost fell off my chair. This was a wonderful post Nat. Thanks!
Allison
on 15/01/2011 at 7:47 pm
Figuring,
I have done the same with a friend in similar circumstance. All we can do is show them the option, but if they’re not ready to deal with their own stuff, it’s on them. Hopefully, they will eventually wish to deal with the truth, as we did.
Think about some of the stories you read on the site- avid readers of BR who know the signs- but continue to return to unhealthy behavior. Some are not ready to address the real problem (themselves) and continue to put all the blame on the ex’s. As long as we see ourselves as victims and not the part of the problem, the cycle will continue.
Lynn
on 15/01/2011 at 10:02 am
When I read this story and all these posts, it just kills me how long we “know” we aren’t in a good situation before we “know” we must get out NOW. I’m into my fourth month of NC and my perspective keeps changing as I focus on myself. It’s weird: it’s like each two steps of strength I take comes with one step of Holy Sh*t Humiliation, because the more I learn to like myself the more horrified I become at what I allowed myself to experience. It’s like the full depth of how bad it is for you can’t be felt and dealt with til you’re out of it – like not feeling a sunburn until you get back in the shade. Then, as you heal, and the pain of the healing happens, you’re like, why did I stay out in sun I knew was baking me for that long? Not having boundaries against guys like this is like trying to have that fun-in-the-sun magic times without realizing you’re out there with no sunblock and every minute you spend in that warm-sunny-lala-land you are actually HURTING yourself. Hope Marci gets out ASAP. Wish I had gotten out way sooner, cause I am still smarting, and hoping I haven’t damaged my sense of trust permanently.
RuthT
on 15/01/2011 at 1:33 pm
@Lynn
I know and agree you can actually feel nauseous as you go through the ‘waking up to what I put up with process’. Shame must be turned into forgiveness for ouself and understanding this EUM behaviour is totally unusual to our normal relationships. In fact I think we have to grieve the wasted time and turn it into promising never to compromise on certain values again. I really like the sunburn analogy. Spot on description of that blindness to harm in action. We can forgive, we can heal and we can recover. There are enough examples now of Natalie, Movedon et El to show that step by step trust can be rebuilt with proper boundaries in place from the beginning. Plus a lot of listening to them tell us who they are….
Fearless
on 15/01/2011 at 2:47 pm
Good blog Natalie. For those who are in the midst of these
“relationships” it’s a wake up call. I think when we, as Marci is
doing, finally look for help, that action in itself tells us that
we alreay KNOW something is badly wrong. What Lynn says (above) was
so true for me: “When I read this story and all these posts, it
just kills me how long we “know” we aren’t in a good situation
before we “know” we must get out NOW. I’m into my fourth month of
NC and my perspective keeps changing as I focus on myself. It’s
weird: it’s like each two steps of strength I take comes with one
step of Holy Sh*t Humiliation, because the more I learn to like
myself the more horrified I become at what I allowed myself to
experience.” I have been thinking a lot about that in the past few
days, i.e. that I KNEW when I was seeing him that it was going
no-where – that I was being taken for a mug, that he wasn’t
interested in actually being with me properly, just was happy to
enjoy the fringe benefits… I have been trying to figure out why I
continued with it when I already KNEW the score… and Natalie is
right, it was because I believed that “this” (whatever “this” was)
was better than nothing and the more I invested the more determined
I became that I would (I MUST) see a return… I would say as much
to a good friend of mine who was in a very similar type of
relationship and for even longer than mine (she is one of the very
few friends that I confided in and spoke to about it all). During
our chats, I would say to her that I had not been doing this all
these years to just walk away with nothing to show for it! And also
that I wanted him in my life in some way rather than in none at
all… many a times I KNEW consciously that I waa accepting a
barely there relationship – it just seemed better than nothing –
and still after five months of virtual NC I still have days whan I
fall into wondering if what I had with him WAS better than
nothing… better than what I’ve got now and what is in front of
me…that although as a “love match” or romantic relationship with
a future it was hopeless in the extreme, I still miss contact with
him as a “friend”… but my common sense and keeping reading here
assures me and re-affirms to me that we cannot be “friends”
anymore… walking away and being absolutely serious about doing it
– consistently serious about it – is the hardest thing I think I
have ever had to do… and my life has been no walk in the park!
After my ex EUM started off chasing me with gusto, he reverted into
exactly the scenario described by Marci in Nat’s blog… and that
trundled on and on and on… over time – a long time – he did
maintain regular contact with me and in the closing chapter we were
at a place where we saw eachother regularly, spoke to eachother
almost every day etc.. and at that point he would only do the
disappearing act if I started to “pry” or “complain”… I learned
over time that I was to put up and shut up or f**k off. I was
always on the fringes of his life; our relationship was never
acknowledged in “his life”, only in “our life” – it was like we
were having a relationship in a parallel universe!! He walked all
over my life – I was never given a full pass into his. The comments
that Marci has made about her man being a gentleman etc… ring
true also with my ex… and I go with what has been said about that
already by other posters… my EUM thought he was “trying” to be
good to me… he would do all sort of “gentlemanly” things – pay
for dinner; help dig my garden, give me money if I was skint, come
over and cook me lovely meals… but when I wanted to have an
“honest conversation” about our future and the nature of the
relationship he would get very upset and claim he could do nothing
right!…” no matter what I do… I can do nothing right!!… “.
Last time I saw him, we had been out for a meal, it was late at
night, and we were sitting in my garden having a nightcap. He cut
me off at the knees – rude and curt – when I tried to have “the
conversation” with him… he got up instantly from the table and
pretended to be busy with some extension lead that needed to be
taken back into the house…there was a heavy silence…it was one
of those moments when I knew I had been “silenced” and understood
with complete clarity that he was an ignorant f***ker…! I just
said to him “you are so mean”… of course he had just paid for an
expensive meal and a few other things that weekend… and he just
said “yeah.., that’s right… *I am* really mean!!!” and at that he
walked into the house and went to bed… my bed. I sat outside and
cried my eyes out for an hour and then went in and slept on the
couch… (apart from anything else he snores like a buffalo… but
I also just could not bear to be near him that night no matter what
– snoring or no snoring). I should of course have asked him to
leave… but I was emotionally drained and feeling that everything
was out of my control – this was the third night he had stayed over
(at his own behest!)… and I had found it “difficult” as I was
preparing for my daughter’s 21st birthday bash she was having at
home (she lives with me) that night for her friends (which he was
there “to help with” – and to be fair he was a good help) and I had
barely slept because of his snoring… I was exhausted. Anyway…
we had a row the next morning – he “thought” it was about his
snoring… claimed he could do nothing right and I had done nothing
but gripe at him all weekend and he stormed out – tearfully. I have
not seen him since. When he left I finally realised that I had to
be proactive in doing something about this hole I was in… He
wouldn’t be with me and neither would he end it…. I had to take
charge – I knew and I had to get out, somehow NOW and I started
googling for anything that might help me… I found BR. I am not
nearly “fixed” yet…. but I am holding on… I do not think I have
completely let go or really accepted the finality of it all yet (as
someone pointed out to me – and this is true)… but I am no longer
fuelling any fires, I am staying away from him and am gaining a
little more resolve and clarity every day. More and more and more,
I am seeing him as the total effing, using, spineless, asshole that
he has shown me so many times that he is!! And even now… as every
day passes and he does NOTHING to prove to me any different, he
simply re-affirms what a vaccuous, gutless clown I was dealing with
all that time. I now can’t remember whay I am telling you all this!
Sorry, I am blabbing… perhaps it’s that someone recently (can’t
remember where) said that these guys can never have an honest
converstion with you… and that hit a chord with me. It hit the
nail on the head re my ex – that he could not ever, not one time,
ever, have the an honest conversation with me, and that I think was
the part I found the hardest to deal with – that I felt I had no
voice – that even when he pretended to “talk” to me properly, as he
did on a rare occasion – he was just appeasing me – there was never
any genuine honesty or sincerity or clarity – and he mostly ran a
mile if he thought I was even thinking of starting a
“conversation”. Trying to talk to him about “us” was a waste of my
time, my emotions and my energy. I was reduced to texting or
emailing things I wanted to talk about – things I wanted us to
address (latterly I stopped doing that as well, seeing that I was
talking to a brick wall!) – he would ignore these, cut me off with
dismissive remarks or pretend to say something decent (like blaming
himself) which was essentially lame and was juts another tactic
designed to cut the “conversation”. The very worst part – in my
view – of dealing with these people is the way they simply refuse
to engage with you on any real, honest and genuine level and deny
you – outright, without compuntion, the honest and open
communication that you deserve to have with them. I think
everything else, for me, I could handle, but I could not handle
that… as much as I tried to handle it (stupidly) it drove me
close to insanity!! More and more I found it too upsetting to try
to communicate with him – so I stopped – and he was more than happy
with that!! So long as he wasn’t being put under any pressure to
explain himself, to contribute anything that might actually move
the relationship forward or to be honest about what he wanted then
everything was fine and dandy – FOR HIM. SrRry to blab… just
working through some of these things today!! Marci – let it be a
warning to you. If you want a bona fide boyfriend and a bona fide
relationship – you are in the wrong building – head for the exit
doors! Tell him to sling his hook (before he gets it even further
in to you) and don’t even bother to be polite about it – he’s using
you for what’s good for him right now in his present – he’s not
concerning himself about how his behaviour might impact on you or
your life now or in the future. He’s a dead end. I just want to say
that, Marci, heed the advice and be gald you are getting it
–
Nicole
on 15/01/2011 at 5:58 pm
Wow, Fearless, so much of what you have written echoes what
I felt with my ex-AC. I am glad you showed some examples, such as
how he was helpful, and bought a nice dinner, but then would not
allow for an honest conversation. I think that is what I struggled
with the most with my ex-AC. The way he could turn things around on
me, if I wanted to discuss anything serious in the relationship.
Like your guy, mine could be sweet, attentive, generous, helpful,
etc., but very emotionally immature when it came to honest
conversations. He would use different tactics. Sometimes he would
get angry and turn it around and make me think I was creating
drama, by bringing up a minor issue. Or sometimes he would claim he
was just too tired to get into right then, but of course never
brought it up later either. Or he would just say (in an
exasperated, defensive tone) that he screwed up. None of the
tactics ever led to us actually resolving anything, and I, like
you, learned NOT to bring up anything, not to have needs in the
relationship. And it drove me insane, and left me feeling anxious
all the time, and miserable, and wondering if I were the problem.
Thanks for posting this. It helps me clarify my own story a
little.
Fearless
on 15/01/2011 at 8:11 pm
Thanks Nicole for your comments – what you describe is re your ex’s tactics to avoid the “conversation” are also exactly like my own experience with the ex. Yes, he would make me feel that I was pestering or interrogating him or accusing him, that I was just making a big deal out of a minor issue. I actually became anxious, fearful and felt physically sick at the mere thought of bringing up what I thought were real issues or things I wanted answers to. So I rarely did, as I couldn’t take the stress of it and also the distress I would feel when met with his dismissive or blunt responses. And yes, he tended to respond in an indignant, exasperated or defensive manner until I felt I was being unreasonable and pushy and irritating. And yes, I got the ‘too tired right now for this… too sick right now for this…. too busy right now for this…feeling too this or that or the other right now for this..” And no, he NEVER raised it again later. And yes, I also got the indignant, “okay! I can do nothing right. I screwed up again!” And, yes, somehow I was the one who was supposed to feel bad about this. And… if I did not drop the subject fast he dropped me, fast. Where the hell do they learn this stuff?! Is there a manual.. do they take classes?!!
I can see now that in all my dealings with with men I have had a very low sense of entitlement. I have never felt I had the right to expect or demand anything from any human being really – good manners maybe was the only thing – and I never expected that someone love me back just because I was in love with him. I never expected a man to do what I wanted him to do… Natalie keeps reminding us that our “guy” is a wholly separate individual, and I always understood that… so I never thought or imagined that I should be telling anyone else what I thought they should be doing or thinking or feeling… so I think this is where I actually had little sense of boundaries. I always felt aware that people are entitled to do and think and feel what they like and as they choose, and that I either went with it or I didn’t… unfortunately if I had decided I really liked the guy, I went with pretty much anything, hoping that he would eventually feel the same way about me as I did about him. Big mistake! I focused far too much, though, on what I wanted; I let what I wanted drive my actions and I failed to take full account of what he wanted; if he didn’t seem to want the same things, I would just ignore that and try to change his mind bytrying to be what I imagined he wanted… problem is that the ex wanted a doormat; an option; a woman that suited and morphed into his needs and his agenda at any point in time… so, optional ever-morphing doormat is what he got.
Marci should do what I have never done! Take the bull by the horns. Be right up front. Tell this guy what she wants and expects from this – and any – relationship and that if he cannot step up to that right now he must trot on – right now, and not come back.
Snowboard
on 15/01/2011 at 8:42 pm
@Lynn
“It’s weird: it’s like each two steps of strength I take comes with one step of Holy Sh*t Humiliation, because the more I learn to like myself the more horrified I become at what I allowed myself to experience. ” — SOOOOO TRUE!!!!!
@Fearless
You’re doing great and should be very proud of yourself!!!!!!!! You deserve so much better than your ex-EUM. Even if he was at times good to you, as Madonna says, “second best is never enough.”
Just wanted to add that I’m in a new relationship now, have been so for about a month. This guy is definitively not EUM at all. I’ve been playing it closely by the Natalie Textbook, using dating as a Discovery Phase, going slowly, keeping my eyes out for red flags. So far, he has been just utterly wonderful – very generous, attentive, willing to hold off on the sex, etc. If there is hope for me – after chasing 2 different ACs for 9 years – there is hope for everyone!!!!!!
hugs and kisses to all
done as dinner
on 15/01/2011 at 9:22 pm
Fearless – good for you! You sound so angry, which is a good sign, don’t you think? That you are sorting through the emotional wasteland these relationships leave in their wake and getting downright pissed about it! That just means you are one step closer to OVER it. Your post made me smile and nod – my ex husband did a lot of that stuff. That’s why he’s the ex!
Fearless
on 16/01/2011 at 1:14 am
Thanks Snowboard and done as dinner for your support. Yes,
I suppose it’s a good thing to get angry, but I feel as if I have
been angry with him for years!! I have and am going through the
whole gamut of emotions; from anger to grief to frustration to
indifference and back again… you wouldn’t think so, but the rest
of the world would never guess there was anything wrong with me…
no-one at work would notice anything at all and my family – those I
am in regular contact with – are a bit too self-involved anyway to
pay much attention! I do not talk about it to anyone beyond BR –
maybe I should; I wish I could, I just don’t know anyone who would
really “get it”. I know what I need to do now – I have been maudlin
long enough – I need to get myself moving on with the rest of my
life. I need to make plans for things to do that I would enjoy and
be pro-active in getting out and about at the weekends and seeing
people etc… I am looking forward to the spring as I always feel
uplifted and more hopeful at that time of year… Here in Scotland
where I am there is little daylight in winter, I spend almost no
time outside – it’s cold and wintry and dark or cold and wet and
dark! and people tend to hibernate. I was thrown a bit today- hence
all my heavy reliance on BR today – by an ivitation that came in
for myself and the ex to go to a family wedding anniversary
party… my family of course!! And I have felt annoyed that I am
heading to yet another function by myself (as in single – no
partner) with people asking me where he is – and I don’t want to
hear his effing name, never mind have to talk about him even for
the second it takes to say I am not seeing him any more… the
on/off/on/off/ ad infinitum nature of the relationship has had me
saying this at one function or another for years! And I feel like a
parrot!! I also feel so let down by this effing clown of a man…
and of course I know that I let myself down; I can only blame
myself, I know that. And I am really pissed off with myself too.
And the poster who told me that I plainly had not accepted that my
“relationship” was over who was spot on, really made me think….
and so I have been struggling since then with what’s going on in my
head that I cannot seem to fully accept the finality… I cannot
hammer the final nail in the coffin! That somewhere still, though I
am loathe to admit it even to myself, I have not quite jumped the
final hurdle of committing myself totally and completely and
without reservation to “OVER”. That’s where I need to get to…
when I get there I will, I know, be fine – or as fine as one can
be. A wise and older relative said to me many moons ago when I was
in the midst of a very painful break-up of a relationship I was
struggling to get over: “you’ll get over it just as soon as you
want to get over it”. Those words words have resonated with me over
these past diffiult months and I know they are true… I don’t
think after such a long time that I expect myself to be “over it”
already, but I think for me to stand a hope of getting there I must
first accept that my “thing” with this man is actually over for
good and for always… once I fully accept that and hammer that
final nail in, I think I will want to get over it pretty quickly
and probably will. It’s the completely letting go of all vestiges
of hope, no matter how miniscule, that is scuppering me. I don’t
expect perfection, or anything approaching it, in any human being,
and in my personal relationships I make a lot of allowances for the
‘human condition’, we are all of us at its mercy, and I did make
many allowances for him – too many, I own – and despite all his
crap, I did love him very dearly – and I am struggling to really
let him go. I don’t know why cos he’s a spineless clown. Thanks for
listening to me today BR.
done as dinner
on 16/01/2011 at 2:24 pm
Fearless – yes I know exactly what you mean. My country too
is cold and dark, dark, dark, and we all tend to hibernate as well.
Yesterday I went for a long ski around a pond at night. It was
lovely and made the world of difference in my mood. It’s a cliche
for sure but exercise really helps and breaking routine. In terms
of routine, I also thing we have thought patterns that we repeat
over and over – without even realizing that it is a rut we are in.
So we ricochet back and forth through grief, anger, disbelief etc.
Have you thought about talking to a therapist about all of your
feelings and where they come from. This year, I’d finally had
enough and started to go and it really helps to identify recurring
themes, behaviours and ways of thinking. Once these start to emerge
and you see the repetition you are able to start making changes.
And, a therapist doesn’t judge you or offer up pointless platitudes
or misguided advice that just makes you feel worse. Anyway maybe
that would help? ((hug))
Fearless
on 16/01/2011 at 10:20 pm
@Done as dinner
Thanks for relating how you have dealt with things. I do go out for walks when I feel I am ‘festering’! I am going to join the gymn and start going for a swim (there is a pool indoors!! – near me) even once a week. This is my new resolution…as of this coming week. I will keep you posted. I do always feel much better when I get out and get moving. Yes, I have also thought of a therapist – I haven’t though looked into it yet… I will see how I fare over the next two months and if I don’t feel much better, I may well give it a go. I was looking online at apartments for a summer holiday today – am thinking of going away the whole month of July – and that cheered me up! I was also interested in a post by someone yesterday who mentioned the ACOA, i.e. adult child of an alcoholic – that’s me. I looked at its website and I see that some of my typical behaviour, attitudes and way of dealing with the world is quite typical of an ACOA… I didn’t realise my childhood could still be following me around!! (thankfully I have never been a heavy drinker at all – I went the other way – though some of my siblings have not been so fortunate, which is a great sadness to me.)
Thanks for the support and for sharing.
And all you ‘Marcis’ out there who are reading and hoping they never have to cope with my “issues” and are wondering if you are with an EU – If he’s calling you less than NML hears from British Gas – You are!.. head for the hills!!
runnergirlno1
on 16/01/2011 at 4:06 am
Fearless, Lynn, and all, Thank you for your posts. And
Natalie, thank you for this blog. I hope one day to meet you and I
wish I could be in NY in Feb. You all keep me thinking about me and
focused on me. I may be slowly regaining consciousness. One
comment, among many, that struck me is” “I was always on the
fringes of his life; our relationship was never acknowledged in
“his life”, only in “our life” – it was like we were having a
relationship in a parallel universe!! He walked allover my life – I
was never given a full pass into his.” That seems to be a common
thread in our posts and I know it was the case in my situation. I
hear you Fearless. I wrote in my journal last night and posted my
feeling that I can’t seem to reclaim my grocery store, my house, my
backyard, my workplace, and even my dog. He walked all over my
life. He had full access to my life, which became ours. I never had
full access to his life, which remained his. I know it is all my
stuff and I don’t have to reclaim it and I am not placing him on a
pedestal. We were having a relationship (or something) in a
parallel universe which, of course, is another inherent feature of
being involved with a MM. Beware anybody contemplating such a
disaster. Humiliation is the perfect description of what I am
feeling. It is humiliating to realize that I put so much time and
effort into “us” and “we” didn’t really exist. I’m struggling with
how to wrap my head around what was going on in my head. I must
have been in an alternative universe. As a kid, I was always very
good at playing pretend games. I could think up a scenario (let’s
pretend we are going to the moon), assign all the kids in the
neighborhood a role, and we’d play happily all day. I observed this
in my daughter too. The neighboorhood kids usually played at our
house and my daughter was the director of the play. I’m still doing
it as an adult. I thought up a scenario (let’s be a loving, fun,
happy couple) assigned our roles, and played albeit not completely
happily for two years. I hated when he couldn’t play the role I
assigned him. I think I’m going to make a list of red flags.
Certainly, marital status will be number one. A parallel universe
is going to be number two. And number three is going to be a
reality check; Am I playing pretend and assigning somebody a role
they cannot possibly fill? Playing pretend as a kid was fun. It
doesn’t work as an adult, however. Fearless, your description of
him sleeping in your bed while you slept on the couch was profound
and hugely symbolic of the fact that he walked all over your life.
That is it. He is sleeping in your bed and you are on the couch.
Oh! I hope your daughter’s 21st B-Day went well, however. I’ve got
to pass on a story. Around Thanksgiving, as my denial is cracking
with ex MM #2 and I’m realizing that I’m miserable, unhappy, sad
and unable to go on, ex MM #1 calls, completely out of the blue,
after two years. I never really fully addressed the demise of the
situation with ex MM #1 because ex MM #2 was already hot on my
trail. It’s like these guys know. I returned ex MM #1’s phone call
with the rationalizaation that we didn’t really get closure. He
just up and moved with his wife to another state without telling
me, as though I was entitled to be informed. I found out because
his wife and I had the same hairdresser. I returned his phone call
BEFORE I discovered this website and all of you. Ex MM#1 was a
total AC and fits every description on this blog and every post and
then some, but I don’t want to digress. Well, he was going to be in
town over christmas and wanted to know if we could have coffee and
chat. I agreed and arranged for some of our mutual friends to get
together as well. (Remember, it was BEFORE I discovered this
website and all of you.) As things go with total AC’s, gratefully,
he blew cold over christmas and didn’t call. It was a non-issue,
however, because while he was blowing cold, I discovered this
website. I told our mutual friends that I would not be meeting to
chat with ex MM #1. They could, but I wouldn’t. New boundaries: No
chats with ex MM’s. In fact, no chats with MM’s period. No meeting
MM’s in bars after work to discuss work. I return home today, Jan.
15th, probably two months after the AC contacted me, and now he
wants to be friends on Facebook. Better yet, the pic on Facebook is
of him and his wife. I just howled and hit delete so hard I hoped I
didn’t break my computer. Oh dear lord. What are these married men
thinking? What was I thinking to become involved with men who would
cheat on their wives and think that we had a relationship? Boundary
number one…stay away from married men. They are a disaster. Maybe
I should start a list of boundaries before the red flag list. I’m a
linear sort of list person. Do you think there is a secret website
out there where MM’s, EUM’s, and/or AC’s get tips on the how to’s?
They are certainly playing from a pretty standard play book. Thanks
Natalie for making the play book available. Seriously?
Fearless
on 16/01/2011 at 10:36 pm
runnergirl – you are getting it! Don’t look back. MMs are a nightmare and they will never, ever be anything else. I do know what you mean about all your stuff and your space – my pal used to say to me about her ex and my own, that they are like dogs pissing all over our space marking their territory!! (not a very pleasant image – but it has a ring of truth about it!). I think now about the chats my friend and I used to have about our “relationships” – before I found BR – and we were spot on! Neither of us, though, acted on it… wierd… that we know it all instinctively but we do nothing about it… we seem to convince ourselves that we are exaggerating… that maybe we are being a bit paranoid…that women always complain about their man and it doesn’t necessarily mean anything… that most men are like this… that it’s not really that bad… that he’ll come good in the end – all bollocks, of course. We need to take heed of our guts, our instincts… if it seems strange it IS strange; if we feel uncomfortable, it’s for GOOD reason.
Good luck to you! F
runnergirlno1
on 17/01/2011 at 1:45 am
Thank you Fearless for responding. I read your posts and hear your anger. Your anger is reassuring that we all may be on the right path. I feel so guilty, however. I’m in sunny California, where it was 80 degrees today and the sun is just setting. I did get to the gym today, can’t bear to hike to the beach yet or listen to my reggae. I so want to get my hiking trail back but I know I”ll be tempted to break NC if I do it now. My ex MM so pissed all over my space. In academic jargon, it’s called “scent marking”. He scent marked everything. Based on your posts, he scent marked your stuff too. I still can’t get the vision out of my mind when he was sleeping in your bed, while you were on the couch. Oh dear god.
I don’t know why when we know in our gut things are wrong but we still keep hoping that is really isn’t that bad. I think it may be denial. The Kubler-Ross stages of grief have helped me. We can only take truth in chunks, otherwise it would be overwhelming. Thus, we have denial to get us through to the truth.
I so connected with your description of a nightcap in your garden when you tried to bring up an important relationship issue and he shut you down. Although you are in Scotland and I’m in sunny California, the conversations were the same. Let’s all hang in there. Oh dear, please let me hang in there and maintan NC. Usually, when you are giving advice to others, it is advice you need to follow, according to Melody Beattie, our US version of Natalie. I so miss him.
namaste
on 17/01/2011 at 6:09 pm
I also was reduced to test messaging and e-mailing in lieu of having the honest conversation I wanted to have with the EUM. It feels awful to have no voice and it is so frustrating to run into a brick wall every time you try to have a face to face honest conversation but what you get is the same old sh**
Gina
on 15/01/2011 at 1:26 pm
Thank god for this site because it has helped me so much, I finally got my self back over the years when I was trying to make sense out of bullshit behavior instead of setting realistic standards that we all deserve. It never ceases to amaze me the predictive behaviors that an unemotionally available man displays. I was contacted a year later out of the blue, like it was yesterday by an ass clown I briefly dated – I’ve completely moved on, not from him, but from unhealthy relationships. I decided to change my phone number because it makes me cringe and I want to completely move forward. I think though, are they really that disillusioned about themselves to think we are going to just communicate where we left off? Then I think back to what Natalie says and its, AM I GOING TO BE HIS EGO STROKE, TEMPORARY TEXT PARTNER because that is all he is looking for, and is probably unaware of his true motivations himself. For a while there when the unavailables would contact me centuries later out of the blue I would think – Do they think I’m that desperate, what kind of impression did I leave, but then I learned it really isn’t about me and as long as I don’t tolerate that non-sense, I can break that unhealthy pattern and be in a healthy relationship.
Skyscraper
on 15/01/2011 at 9:17 pm
Hi Everyone. It’s been a while since I’ve visited Natalie’s community. Yesterday (after 3 years) I finally sent the “I’m all done” email to the serially disappearing AC. I’ve known what needed to be done, but I used all the rationalizations available to convince myself that it was okay to continue with him. Having my love tossed back in face (rudely) one more time yesterday finally triggered my self preservation instincts. Much work on myself lies ahead. I think “emotional airbag” is my new favorite phrase, and that’s where I’ll start–reflecting about why I choose this role, over and over.
Audrey
on 15/01/2011 at 9:29 pm
Managing down our expectations is actually a very clever and cunning tactic on the guy’s side and if you allow it to contine, you’ll be trained to accept crumbs, not complain and be “grateful” for whatever attention he decides to give you. It happened to me and I didnt understand what the heck was going on. Having my expectations managed down was one of the most devastating experiences i’ve had. I think its emotional abuse myself.
Please please don’t let a guy do this to you. dont let him get away with it.
it happened to me and it will leave you devastated and bewildered.
You’re right Nat, its like they train us.
charla
on 16/01/2011 at 3:50 am
I’m not sure I agree about it being abuse but it is
manipulation. Trained not to expect phone calls, trained not to
expect replies to texts, trained not to expect to be invited to
family get-togethers, to only have plans at the last minute, to not
be told what he’s doing that night until the last minute, to not
even expect…after being told at one point in the relationship but
no longer…”I love you.”
Kate
on 16/01/2011 at 8:53 am
Trained so that in the end you have to realize,
hey….there is actually NO “relationship” here. In the end, my
“relationship” got so pitiful that I had to turn it around and see
the humor and absurdness of it all. He: didn’t “do” Christmas, he
didn’t do presents, he didn’t do birthdays, he didn’t do
phonecalls, he didn’t do going out, he didn’t do holidays with me,
he didn’t do the meet the family bit, he didn’t do the meet the
friends thing, he didn’t do the lets get on with her kids, he
didn’t do the spending time with me in the daytime thing (he was
far too “busy” for that), he didn’t do emotions. I was left
wondering what CAN we do ? It was like living in a straightjacket.
Oh, of course, he DID do sex and texts. NEVER again !! This
behaviour was all new to me, never met anyone like him, hope I
never will again………
charla
on 17/01/2011 at 12:03 am
Oh gawd Kate. Yours sounds even worse than mine. (He’s a “no longer” thankfully.) Trained down not to expect him to get along with my kids, indeed. He tried at first and then just declared me a near-incompetent parent. I could not meet up to his standard of parenting, because he was so exemplary (hardly). I was just left, near the end, feeling extremely lonely. I even recorded a note to myself on my phone expressing how alone I felt and then – boom – discarded not a week later.
Leigh
on 16/01/2011 at 12:16 pm
Actually, I do think it’s emotional abuse. You are trained
to be a certain way solely for their benefit without any thought or
feeling for you or how this can harm you. In extreme cases it can
and does become physical abuse. I would say that my expectations
got managed down over a long period of time and some of the tactics
the ex AC used was dismal human behaviour. He doesn’t take any
responsibility or accepts he did anything wrong to harm me. His
ACTIONS have said it all post break up and meeting him three years
later. Once an AC always an AC it is rare for one of these types to
actually change. I got sick of seeing the positive in him and using
that to justify his rotten behaviour. The final straw for me came
when he told me he loves me still, (after not seeing him for three
years) that I have a corner of his heart but that his morals won’t
let him change his situation. My instant reaction was to ask “Do
you love your wife?” and he said “Yes” so I responded “So what are
you doing here with me!” He couldn’t answer that one and it was at
that point I realised that even if he was the most available man on
this god given universe I wouldn’t want him, because he isn’t
TRUSTWORTHY! Those three years away from his influence gave me some
clear perspective and it’s been easier this time around to go NC
and sort myself out. Do I miss him? Yes, at times I miss all the
good stuff but I am under no illusions, the bad stuff is not worth
handling because I’m worth more than just the emotional crumbs and
the waiting game.
Audrey
on 17/01/2011 at 4:13 pm
@Charla: i had a thought on this today – is managing down our expectations emotional abuse?
Emotional abuse is – to abuse your emotions. And i think managing down your expectations is an abuse of your emotions without a doubt. And managing down your expectatios is mind manipulation of course which is emotional abuse too.
msblue
on 15/01/2011 at 9:41 pm
I dated this guy for 2 weeks. Dinners, walks, talks, sex….It had been a year and a half since I last dated and I jumped at sex too fast. But the guy was EU and actually freaked out when I mentioned that we had been dating for 2 weeks. He then started saying, “I’m not looking for a girlfriend,….”. This is after making travel plans, inviting him for christmas dinner, him saying, “let us make this work”, “your boyfriends must have been crazy to let you go”….Anyway, I told him to hit the road, did a week of NC and now will neverhad sex with anyone unless there is a relationship first. Lesson learned.
Dawn
on 15/01/2011 at 9:50 pm
Truth….as they say will set you free. But it takes time for all of the truths to sink in, be processed and accepted. The weatlth of information and stories that are shared here help so many of us gain insight, clarity and above all truth about our own situations. For all of this I am grateful. Thank you to all you ladies & men out there for reaching out and helping so many.
AliceB
on 15/01/2011 at 10:28 pm
Here’s a question that’s a little off-topic but I would appreciate your views: does depression render a guy unavailable?
Fearless
on 16/01/2011 at 12:07 am
Alice B
I’m no expert but I would imagine yes, most likely it would render a person emotionally unavailable until they recovered sufficiently from the depression, though they may be EU anyway, whether depressed or not.
runnergirlno1
on 16/01/2011 at 4:23 am
Alice B. Yes. Depression renders a guy totally unavailable.
Although, I’m not an expert, my second ex was bipolar, depressed
and a b/f suffered from depression. The recent death of a very
young adult (20 years) was due to depression. Depression is
extremely serious based on my experience.
grace
on 16/01/2011 at 3:49 pm
AliceB Yes. I wouldn’t want a relationship with ME when I’m
depressed! If the two of you have a solid background together, or
if you’re marred/have kids it may be worth sticking around
especially if he knows how to get help. But if it’s always been a
dodgy relationship I don’t hold out much hope for you. If he’s
saying “I can’t be in a relationship cos I’m depressed” but
continues to exploit you (sex, ego stroke etc) then he’s just a
twit, albeit a depressed twit. If he’s saying “I’m depressed
because of x, but I’m seeing a counsellor/the doctor, please stick
around” then you have an amber light. It’s not 100%
straightforward, but listen to your gut. Is there genuine reason
for hope here or are you just flailing around in a sea of
excuses?
AliceB
on 16/01/2011 at 10:17 pm
Thanks for the feedback on depressed ACs. I’m mulling things over, analysing the past so I can avoid making similar mistakes in future.
I recently read an advice column, where the letter writer’s sister was about to marry an abusive guy who had pulled all sorts of sh*t on her in the past. One commenter said something like, ‘forget about her – she doesn’t have the backbone to bear a grudge’. And I thought, hey that’s me. Except I would have seen my inability to bear a grudge as a form of compassion. So from now on, I’ll have to remind myself to have the backbone to bear a grudge.
pengiuna
on 15/01/2011 at 10:42 pm
In the letter, there is a bit of coming and going on his part. And it leaves the OP in shambles… I understand and empathise with how she feels. What may be of help in the future, in addition to what is outlined as explanations for what has occurred, is to understand the difference between a committment and exclusivitiy. From my experience, even when I lose sight of the valuable insight given in the response, at the end of the day, there is a HUGE difference between being in a committed relationship and an exclusive one. Committed is forever, exclusive means the gal has taken herself off the market for a man without a committment– and this can be painful. enjoy your time with the man, yet keep meeting others until he is able to commit. and if he is unwilling or inable to commit, let him keep going around the baggage belt while you leave the airport and keep moving forward with your life. xo
Lynn
on 15/01/2011 at 10:52 pm
For what it’s worth, I have recently started going to ACOA meetings. The acronym stands for “Adult Children of Alcoholics” but it’s for anyone who recognizes themselves and/or their families in the kind of dysfunction the 12-step program addresses. There are men in these meetings. And oh my god. They actually talk about their feelings, and talk about their difficulties, and are trying to take ownership. My whole life I have been told Men Don’t Talk. Well, maybe many don’t, but clearly some do. I never realized how “normal” emotional unavailability is for me. At today’s meeting I swear I sat there listening/watching to these thirty-something men (quite different personalities and styles, but same goal in the meeting) talk about relationships, boundaries and connecting with vulnerability and honesty and had to try not to stare at them like they were aliens. They exist!!!!! They walk among us!!!!
yoghurt
on 15/01/2011 at 11:56 pm
“We are like one when together. It would be viewed and has been from others we are a great couple. After these fabulous dates, nothing for up to 2 weeks??? ”
“Anybody can kiss a forehead and romance you for a time, but can they cut it in a consistent relationship?” – this works the other way around, too.
It occurred to me as I was reading this that one of the hardest things that I had to accept about being in this situation was that, when we were together, he brought out the very best side of me. I liked myself when I was with him – I felt like I was fun, and wise, and clever… and that must mean that we were meant to be together, surely?
And then the fact that, actually, he really wasn’t bothered about even the very very ‘best’ version of me felt more of a rejection. Besides, I liked that version and I don’t always get to see it.
The thing is, though, that OF COURSE he only saw the best version of me – even I can be brilliant once a week. Of course I could be funny when I’d stored up all my good stories and lines for him, of course I could be wise and insightful about his life when I spent the intervening time analysing him and considering all of his problems.
He never had to deal with the grotty side of me because he never stuck around long enough to see it – he only got the distilled version of me after I’d spent a week filtering out any bits that he might not like. It was fun at the time, but it was hardly a relationship.
Jupiter23
on 17/01/2011 at 12:44 am
Sometimes, I think too that we feel like we have to be the best person we can be when we are around these EUMs. We are putting on a performance so that they will see the light and love us.
I have had a committed, exclusive relationship. In that relationship, I was sometimes in a good mood, sometimes in a bad mood. Sometimes I felt like being physical, sometimes I didn’t. Sometimes I chose TV over listening to him. Seriously, one time he was telling me a story while I was trying to watch a movie; I totally blocked him out and forgot he was talking.
With my EUM, I always tried to be in a good move, was always in the mood for sex, would never fail to listen to him on the edge of my seat (I might get clues to get him to commit).
Being in a relationship with someone you know isn’t going to leave is a totally different experience. It’s a bit more boring. You don’t always feel on edge, waiting for the shoe to drop. But it’s a hell of a lot better. I want to have that again.
Fats
on 16/01/2011 at 10:47 am
Hi all Happy New 2011 to all of us and I pray we all find
that strenght peace and enligthment of avoiding accepting and
loving assclowns EUM mummys boys losers and narccicists! I have
been reading these blogs for over 2 months now at the beginning
some made sense some didn’t as you go along once the rejection to
despair to sadness to craziness to desperation to lonliness and
finally acceptence happens then you realise it’s not you it’s them
the red flaggers me me me me the bullshiters the im so not
listening to right now you crazy despo because I can’t be bothered!
I have learnt so much from Nat you all and have experienced what
Fearless Lynn have gone through nice guy nice meals but when it
came to discussing our marriage and issues it was oh god do you
ever shutup or we have discussed this so many times and doesn’t it
tire you or the anger or the ignorance or shut mr up with sex most
of the times! it got to the point where I use to cry all night and
he would snore away in my case like a pig and would wake up kissing
and hugging mr like nothing ever mattered and I would be sick and
full of despair and hate for him! He had all the signs as we of
blow hot blow cold and would blame it on my negativity and
frustration and ignorance! Red flags before the marriage oh I won’t
accept your child and that’s how I am and he is ok living with his
dad as he was then so I agreed can you believe how foolish I was
and how his hooks we’re sunk into me! Oh as in my religion it’s
been predicted that I will be married twice and my forts one won’t
work due to lack of understanding and my second wife will be my
favourite etc but I don’t belive in all this and you are the one
woman for me shit! My identity was changed while me married so i
would fit into the family and it was temp till all was permenant
with us and so he wouldn’t have to explain me being a Muslim and a
mother if a child who he didn’t accept as a human let alone a
child! yes people I know you think she’s off her mind and a fool I
was and that’s what I was something or nothing as I had no self
esteem from my previous divorce and this man was Adonis for me!
After marriage he looked after me adorded me loved spending every
minute with me we worked together as well (I still do) as long as I
didn’t mention my son who was 250 miles away from me as we moved
due to his job change or my identity and fake name or that I felt
something was missing it was all good otherwise! Another flag he
didn’t want to have a child with me in the beginning it was the
excuse if relocation work stress finacial issues which by the way
weerent there as we earned more than enough to have a child but I
use to feel incomplete use to ask him why deny me something that’s
normal but there wasn’t any response from him except I don’t want
one now finally the thruth came out that he didn’t want to
associate his child not our his child with my son!!! So that he
wouldn’t gave to reavesl me and my dark past as he calledit to his
precious family! things changed when he got his passport and
residency to live here and then after so many convesations with
close friends family I realised the real agenda I was the fall back
plan the divorced mother of a kid was the only option to stay here
who cares about the fact that she actually really loves mr and
wants a marriage and happiness no that wasn’t his agenda it was
she’s desperate and crazy as he looked in the mirror till I find
somone else ! Probably the 22 year old he’s shagging right now! I
got pregnant last year and my I had left the house and moved out
just then just my luck! his reaction action was wow I’m so happy
come back we have a baby to think about and the best he did was
send me an email at wirk about what he was planning to do an
email!!!! Here I was thinking going crazy on I wanted this child so
much after 11 years and with a man I so deeply loved but I was
alone single parenting already and was not getting much out if this
asshole! I was stuck between my feelings and what I wanted to what
was going to happen if I kept the child when he didn’t acknowledge
mine at all! I didn’t have the child and I was stone cold in pain
and hated myself more than him and didn’t feel anything inside ! he
blamed me fir not waiting and that he didn’t force me to do
anything but then I thought what did he do to change the situation
nothing if really wanted to be with me totally why would he resist
and not change the situation!!! Thexreasom I say all this is
because after all that I’ve put myself through I use to pine for
him slept with him wanted us back but you know what he us still the
same an narccicst cold ass hole who hasclearly told me so many
times that he is who he is and he believes that he us always right
and never listens to what anyone says or does and I never heard
that till now him telling me he was an asshole he us and always
will be ! It’s been NC now finally for 10 days and you know what I
don’t care anymore if he’s shagging lying scheming and spreading
lies about our reasons fir divorce which by the way his version of
the story is he treated me badly wasn’t good husband malarchy! How
nicely put by him so hes the poor puppy and couldn’t hack it not
that he has ignored all yes put me through and ignored aal the real
reasons! I’ve stopped feeling anything for him and yes it hurts
still but he doesn’t seem important anymore! So Marci acknowledge
the red flags that are blaring in your face with this loser and
please don’t make the same mistakes I did cause really he isn’t
important and isn’t worth the fortnights either no matter how good
you think he is it’s all a act!
Miriam
on 16/01/2011 at 4:32 pm
At Snowboard’s comment: Madonna’s “Express Yourself” says
it all. “We deserve the best in life, and if the timing is wrong,
then move on!!” I swear I heard this song 50 times or more to
convince myself to walk away from the empty “rs” I had. It hurt at
first to realize there was never much there for me, but 5 ms NC has
worked wonders. I’m finally actually accepting the situation and
somewhat ready to start again- but now i have a new set of eyes !!
I’m attending Nat’s workshop, “it’s broken you’re not” because I
need a little push to move forward in a positive manner. My self
esteem is much stronger and I’m almost desperate to not think of
him at all, just wanna move forward! I think it’s good to not
obsess about what happened or why, it’s maddening!
Annie
on 16/01/2011 at 5:24 pm
Your calling it for what it is, is what started me on the track of seeing things clearly.
What you do here is invaluable in helping people, Nat. Thank you:)
Josie
on 16/01/2011 at 7:13 pm
“Being trained for low expectations” is what it is partly about but we have to not acceopt the training. My ex said to me “We are not even in a relationship”..okay so don’t call me every day to discuss your life for an hour at a time. Then finally he called to say he was in my locality THAT day. Which label is stamped on my head which says yes you can expect me to drop my own life because you waltz into town. No I DON’T accept that sort of training because I NEVER treat my friends or lovers like this and I don’t expect anyone else to treat me like that either. Spot the red flags and bite the dog trainers is what I say!
Nicole
on 16/01/2011 at 8:13 pm
My ex-AC broke up with me kind of suddenly, because I
brought up a minor issue. We had plans that evening, and he decided
to break up with me just before we were to leave. When I asked why
he picked that time to do it, he said, “You brought it up, I wasn’t
going to say anything.” What???? The thing I brought up was a minor
issue I was hoping we could talk about. I did not bring up breaking
up. He had tried other tactics previously to deter me from bringing
up anything serious, so I guess he decided to break up with me
because I was apparently “untrainable”. At his request, and against
my better judgment, we remained “friends”. For a while, anyway. His
treatment of me as a friend was no better than his treatment of me
as a girlfriend. Again, I brought up a minor issue a couple of
times during this “friendship”. The longer I was in it, the more I
realized how unhealthy it was, and I began to make myself less
available to him. Then, out of nowhere, he pulled a Mr. Freeze act,
and concocted a couple of bogus reasons for being mad at me. I told
him the Mr. Freeze act was not the kind of friendship I wanted, and
I found it unacceptable behavior. Again, I was trying to talk it
through with him, not intending to end the friendship. He chose to
end it, and blamed it on me. Apparently, I was untrainable as a
friend as well. I was very hurt by this second rejection, and while
I was angry for a long time, I chose to let it go where he was
concerned. In other words, I did not try to patch things up or
contact him. I heard through mutual friends that he was saying that
I would not speak to him anymore. Total BS, of course. But as much
as I wanted to rant at him, I also knew it would do no good. No
matter what I would have said, he would just make up his own story
anyway. Over the course of time, I withdrew from any mutual
friendships we had. Mostly because I found out he was still trying
to keep tabs on me through them. I am so thankful for Natalie and
all the readers of this site. It helps me stay strong, keep my
boundaries (and my dignity) intact. I still have times when I miss
him, but if I have to be “trainable”, like some dog, just to be in
a relationship with him, then no thanks.
Josie
on 16/01/2011 at 10:11 pm
On the subject of being trainable to accept bad behaviour , Nicole my ex also said “I don’t want to loose your friendship” what he actually meant was I don’t want to loose the ego strokes, the long phone calls to you where I unburden myself and the booty calls! How did he try to train me..well first of randomly answering calls and texts to me, sometimes just vanishing, then calling out of the blue saying he is in town or do I fancy doing something. That was all bullshit. If a girlfriend pulled that stunt she would be history and offers of friendship from people who have treated you mean as a girlfriend just measn they plan to keep you close to be the WORST friend you have ever had! Just see the red flags and refuse to be traininable to accept bullshit you wouldn’t accept from anyone else. There are NO real excuses for this type of randomness and just kick it to the kerb and move onto healthier relationships. That’s what I have done. Normal people return your calls, reply to your texts and e.mails in a reasonable time scale and they respect your time and life. Why do we accept less than acceptable behaviour from these men?
Nicole
on 17/01/2011 at 1:25 am
“offers of friendship from people who have treated you mean as a girlfriend just measn they plan to keep you close to be the WORST friend you have ever had!”
Well said, Josie!!! And so true. At the time I thought his Mr. Freeze act was the cruelest thing he did to me. Turns out, it was the most honest he ever was with me…to show me his true colors!
Skyscraper
on 17/01/2011 at 3:25 am
“Normal people return your calls, reply to your texts and e.mails in a reasonable time scale and they respect your time and life. Why do we accept less than acceptable behaviour from these men?”
That is so beautifully stated, Josie. My sister, my grown kids, my best girlfriends all kept asking me this question. I never had an answer.
Carsie
on 17/01/2011 at 4:20 am
I’m a pretty devout follower of this blog and the advice above really resonates with me. NML, I appreciate the way you place the focus back on the individual as opposed to the emotionally unavailable person. My unhealthy relationship lasted for nearly 3.5 years. When things ended 6 months ago, I began to realize the extent of the damage I had undergone. However, I also began to acknowledge my own agency and role in the relationship.
While I feel I’m making positive strides, there are a couple of anecdotal questions I’d like to pose to Natalie herself. How does one submit questions to the advice section?
Josie
on 17/01/2011 at 9:27 am
On the subject of people replying to e.mails, texts and calls, as I am going forward into new relationships, I now tell people very clearly that I kind of expect a reply to e.mails within a few days, calls within the day, texts within the day. I started chatting to someone online, they wanted to chat via IM an d e.mail. Okay. First of all it was four e.mails a day answered very quickly and wanting to IM into the night, then it became e.mails answered every day okay..now it has just taken this guy four days and still no reply. I reminded him of what I initilaly said and told him now this is how it works with you from now on. However long it takes you to reply to me, I will take the same time and add some, So if you take a week, I will now take 10 days. This way I find idiots get farther and farther away from me. Truth is though this guy is gone, I told him my line and he has now crossed it. Maybe something better came along who knows but hell there are plenty more fish in the sea who won’t be wasting my time!! I am sure he will have some bullshit excuse like his mother was ill, or something and that will really make me laugh!
Relationships are about reciprocation and once there starts to be an imbalance then you have to wonder why this is happening. Why reciprocate too much when you are being given too little. Normal people who want a relationship with you ACT like they want a relationship with you and don’t do the random crazy behaviour that makes you doubt your self worth. It really is that simple
Allison
on 17/01/2011 at 5:28 pm
Josie,
I don’t agree with the laying down of the rules. It will scare all guys off, good and bad- Honestly, I would think something was a bit off if I were presented with these requirements.
If someone likes you, they will not need to be told how often to contact, they will do it because they enjoy the communication. Remember, they are not children.
Blaise Parker
on 18/01/2011 at 7:31 pm
Agree with Allison, completely.
Most men, even EUs, KNOW what to do, know what is right and how to treat a lady. It’s that we ALLOW them to treat us poorly.
If a man does not treat you the way you want them to, then let them know. If he does it again, let him go. But setting up a bunch of rules beforehand will just squash any burgeoning love and attraction. It is very controlling.
I have found, in my experience, that even good men “test the waters” of your boundaries and “screw up” or “forget” sometimes. You just reset your boundary and if he crosses it again, move on.
Your positive, self-loving attitude is the best boundary setting mechanism you have. WAY more powerful than words.
Workshy Joe
on 17/01/2011 at 11:22 am
Although I agree with the advice given, I will never understand the weird euphemisms that women employ. “Emotionally unavailable”?
How about “Only Wants Sex”?
grace
on 17/01/2011 at 12:43 pm
Workshy
“only wants sex” does apply to a lot of these situations but sometimes they don’t even want sex. The man (or woman) likes to string someone along for attention, company, to bolster the ego or as an option. They will avoid sex because they are married, don’t particularly fancy you but don’t want anyone else to have you, are OCD about hygiene or whatever.
Or they DO want more than sex but they DON’T want a committed relationship. Yeah, confusing.
It’s not just a term that women use, it’s a fairly standard term in psychology, nor does it apply only to men. Women can be EU as well, though it usually manifests itself differently.
RuthT
on 17/01/2011 at 12:03 pm
Its certainly one thing to finally identify an unhealthy EUM relationship and quite another to start moving on from it, then another to get to that OVER and out stage. Was just reading the blog between Runnergirl and Fearless about how to actually get Over it, final nail in the coffin stage. I don’t think I am there yet with the odd wander onto his flkr pages to see the latest pics. BUT I am on the way 95% clear. Certainly sure of NC and no going back to that place…we are all different as to what finally gets us to full recovery, I refer a lot to one of Nats blogs in particular 10 Commandments Coping and Moving on after a break up. Commandment number 8 in particular -get a life has great inspirational pointers. A book that has really helped me unpacked the grief side is The journey from abandonment to healing by Susan Anderson. On a practical level what is working for me is having a completely alien routine, so the triggers for nostalgia are lessened. The places he had ‘marked’ are limited and faded. New gym, social tennis, paint classes, new friends and planned a holiday. A Times Travel article states a predicted 19 million Britons will go on holiday alone in 2011, therefore the evolution of many solo travel companies. Thats a start, book a holiday. I am going skiing in March hoorah. Yes we have to unpack the grief and damage and that happens naturally in waves. Yes there are crappy times where being a twosome invited to a wedding/engagement/parties is lovely, but if that is underpinned by a lie where is the joy? Go alone and if you are really not ready to face the barrage of where is Mr x then forewarn the host and friends or take a girl friend. Choice is the biggest thing to reclaim in recovery. Yes you can go and scratch the itch with the EUM, but do you want to now you know what you know? Just say No and move on. Choose You.
AliceB
on 17/01/2011 at 12:45 pm
‘How about “Only Wants Sex”?’
That would be inaccurate Joe. Some of these guys want a whole lot more than sex. Mainly someone who will listen to their incessant whingeing and give their ego a regular stroke. And they like to have someone on their arm in public to enhance their image as a stud muffin.
Thank you AliceB for making me choke on my tea with laughter!
Fearless
on 17/01/2011 at 1:37 pm
I agree, they want a whole lot more than sex – just not in a committed and bona fide relationship… and the term ’emotional unavailability’ – being emotionally unavailabe – is not a term coined by women to describe men, workshy- it is used comprehensively, nor is it a euphemism; it means exactly what it says it means and is but another expression for “commitment phobia” – a term coined by a man, Steven Carter, who also sums it up as ‘not emotionally available’.
As Grace says, pyschologists use the term, and have done the research on adult attachment styles. These people do not just want sex – it’s not that simple, sadly.
allie
on 17/01/2011 at 1:40 pm
Yeah I love the “stud muffin” idea, lol its so true 🙂
Josie
on 17/01/2011 at 2:21 pm
If only EU men just wanted sex, but its the fact that they want the semblance of a relationship without the relationship itself. So they want the long calls and chatting about THEIR boring lives but funnily enough not yours which wears thin. Its the promised that they ,may leave their wives etc that may get women hooked in. If many men were up frount about just wanting sex and how unavailable they really are then they wouldn’t get past first date let aline first base. The EU man I dated has a profile on the internet that reads “First of all I am a single man living alone” He is in fact an engaged man living with his fiancee the past two years. Its the lies that get you really annoyed. I think if my EU man had admitted it was only about sex then I would NOT have driven 300 miless to see that idiot. We have men in my own town who want sex for no relationship lol! Could have saved myself a heap of driving time, petrol and ear ache from listening to his whinging
charla
on 17/01/2011 at 5:08 pm
Agreed Josie. It’s not just about sex. They do want closeness from *us* but can’t even approximate it themselves. They *think* they want a relationship, but they also want something simple, someone undemanding.
Funny how no matter how undemanding we are and by chance we ask for something, we hear about it. Funny, too, how after they leave us, they so often find someone more demanding, bitchy even, and they take it! I don’t get it. My theory is that they (some anyway) just don’t know what they want and despite their protests of “no drama” – they love it.
AME
on 17/01/2011 at 10:12 pm
Or, the EUMs take up with a mother figure who will endlessly put up with their whinging and comfort them. For the EUM not too interested in sex, it can be a perfect match. A lot of the dynamic seems to be stem from not getting affection from parents, and then trying to seek approval and affection as an adult in counterproductive ways.
But really, what does it matter? What does matter is moving on from an EUM and cultivating a healthy relationship. I finally did, and am I ever so glad. It is good for me to know however that the EUM that caused me so much past grief did follow a fairly consistent pattern of behavior. My case was certainly not unique, which helps me forgive myself for opening myself up to such destructive behavior.
I agree Josie,
I think these men do want the semblance of a relationship. Then when they have one they panic. They give us such mixed up messages… come here…. go away…. no wait… come back.
Minky
on 20/01/2011 at 10:16 am
Indeed – they want the intimacy, but not the responsibility. Nat says that all over this site. They want all the benefits, but as soon as they are expected from they freak out and start acting like dipsticks! In some ways i think they think they’re not good enought to give someone what they want, combined with the fear of having to deliver, having their lives restricted, not having the option to sleep with other women. Either way it’s nothing to do with us – it’s their flaw/issue/problem. We should not be trying to save them – we’ve got enough to be going on with just saving ourselves!
Lesley Binnie
on 22/01/2011 at 3:46 pm
Thanks Minky and indeed Julie for clarifying the relationship I was in before Christmas(and indeed for a few dates after because of my own hopes he’d come through for me!) The word ‘semblance’ of a relationship is so true, though I’d go further with this EUM and say he was the’Simalcra’ of a relationship….the perfect wax model. He did all the bits which fed his own ego,the talks,the cultural visits,the good sex and was a complete and utter future faker ‘ I want us to articulate a future together’ was his mantra. It’s like he knew the script and was acting a part?
However I actually never knew what I was doing one weekend to the next…!!!!! he would change plans at drop of hat,he could blow hot and cold like a hairdryer and had no real vested interest in my life or my life situation. When I met his relatives at Christmas it was clear they saw me as’passing through’…a temporary person in his life . This was clearly how he had portrayed me. I was there and this sounds chilling…to provide a service, an ego stoking service…that involved listening,outings and sex.
When he blew cold it involved name calling. I was referred to by derogatory terms,the like of which I had never heard in any relationship situation before. He would put his own agenda before mine frequently and when I asked for more communication about our daily lives I was’difficult’ or not’understanding’. When he blew hot he was sparkling,witty,promised me the world in terms of his intentions and was loving,tactile,keen to please. He was however unable to put any of these promises into practise, and I believe had no intention of doing so. He was stuck.
However I now realise he had more peaks and troughs than a heart monitor and he possibly always had. It’s tough indeed to extricate yourself because the highs are pretty damn high but my own boundaries and strong sense of what was reality won through. Thanks also to this site,it truly helped and helps me loads.x
msblue
on 17/01/2011 at 7:36 pm
I am reading a book called “Love in 90 days”. It suggests dating three men simulataneously and having sex with none of them until you feel you are in a committed, healthy relationship. I previously posted that I was dating an EU man and jumped in bed too soon (had no sex for a year and a half). This new kind of dating style delays the sex and gives you a good compare-contrast of personalites. I feel empowered and will never let myself be used as a bootie call, therapist or ego stroke. No more crumbs, no more EU men or AC’s. I’m so done. No more ‘friends’ with exes, no contact with past lovers. I need to clear the clutter to let love in.
Lynn
on 18/01/2011 at 8:41 am
I’m a big fan of dating many people (meaning, go out for coffee, movies, dinner, sports, NOT sleeping together) at once, to avoid spending precious months/years in exclusive situations with people who you don’t know well enough to choose exclusivity with.
I also picked up this technique from a book. The one I read was called How To Find A Date Worth Keeping. Same authors also wrote Boundaries In Dating. See http://www.cloudtownsend.com. They’re Christian-focused, but I found I could take a lot of pointers without necessarily being interested in lining up a Christian partner. These books helped a lot in getting me out of my last situation (helped me get into it, in a way, because I was dating a lot and met my guy that way), and in fact if I’d heeded their warnings I would have gotten out a lot sooner.
This was where I was at before I discovered NML’s site. But recently watching a friend become disappointed with someone she went exclusive with rather quickly (cutting off some other options), I’m still a fan of going out with lots of guys simultaneously and keeping the physical to a minimal level that feels ‘fair’ to everyone involved.
msblue
on 19/01/2011 at 2:45 am
Thank you Lynne, I’ll check out the link. I appreciate all the support people are giving each other in this blog.
Lesley Binnie
on 22/01/2011 at 5:09 pm
I think this is sound advice and a definite way forward,sex clouds issues. My future plan is to date like this,get to know someone really well before sex. Thanks for the reminder. L
Josie
on 17/01/2011 at 9:56 pm
Allison the thing is about boundaries is that they are personal. I have new boundaries around accepting assclowns and their random low expectation training. When people are acting wit respect you don’t have to be clear about your rules and how you expect to be treated. Its when people are being disrespectful, random and rude that I think its best to be clear.
Allison you said “It will scare all guys off, good and bad- Honestly, I would think something was a bit off if I were presented with these requirements.”
I am not bothered if I scare people off. I am asking for respect if they don’t like my style of respect then they can johg on before I have invested to much time in accepting bullshit.
“If someone likes you, they will not need to be told how often to contact, they will do it because they enjoy the communication.”
That is so true and such people don’t need you to be explicit about your boundaries.
” Remember, they are not children.” That is also so true, and so that I am not drawn into childish battle of emotional dysfunction, I am calling it like it is. Rude and random behaviour I am not having in my life. If that scares some people that’s just beautiful. I have my inner peace!
Allison
on 18/01/2011 at 6:22 am
Josie,
I know when I was new to the info, I felt like you.
I guess what I was trying to say was, that if someone is not stepping up, end communication and don’t waste any more energy with rules. They’ve shown you who they are, so why bother.
Good luck
Sunrise
on 17/01/2011 at 11:07 pm
Josie, I like your attitude about taking the same length of time to respond back to their emails,IM’s….we have to train these men. They dont get to train us, we get to train them. They dont make the rules, we do. And if they don’t like it, NEXT!!!!
I was chatting online w/ a guy for 5 months who says he loves me blah blah blah….but wasnt giving me enough attention (too busy holding down 2 jobs)…nobody is THAT busy to go a few days without contacts with all the technology! So I NC’ed him! I’m choosing my intuition over him. I don’t want to let my intuition down since she has always watched out for me.
It’s 8 days now…I cried once bcuz I missed him…but I’m not willing to be his gf (his term) and only get 10% of his measly time. If he can’t slay dragons and climb walls and give me abundant attention, then I will do my own thing and enjoy my own time.
Fearless
on 18/01/2011 at 12:06 am
I also liked Josie’s take on going one better than the guy who delays getting back to you. I did try that with the ex a lot of the time… but he could always beat me hands down – it wouldn’t matter how long I left it before getting in touch with him, he never “caved”, I did. My NC period has really brought this aspect of the “relationship” right home to me… if I hold off forever, he can do forever x 2!!
charla
on 18/01/2011 at 1:53 am
If only I used that strategy; the “relationship” would have ended much sooner. (One of my many “if only’s”)
done as dinner
on 18/01/2011 at 11:50 am
But guys, if we start timing when we return calls to go them one better, isn’t the whole thing devolving into game playing? Isn’t it simply better at that point to pack it in and move on? Men like to chase and isn’t that strategy kind of playing into that?
charla
on 18/01/2011 at 12:06 pm
Exactly! I am too old to play games and didn’t. But they do with us, by training us down.
Fearless
on 18/01/2011 at 1:07 pm
Yes, I agree with that too – we really shouldn’t have to be worried about these things – if the guy is genuinely interested in moving the relationship forward – he’ll call. I just think sometimes it’s maybe better to hold back a bit till things are off the ground, so to speak, and not call him more often or sooner than he calls you… so as to avoid investing too much too soon and before you really know if he is investing at the same pace and level. Let him ‘pay as he goes’, as one poster said on here a few months ago, and it made a lot of sense to me.
Allison
on 18/01/2011 at 6:25 pm
Done,
I agree!
By believing we have to talk, train and play games, we are only continuing the behavior we had with the ex’s.
When we recognize we can’t change people through our motivation,we will all come to a much better place. Plus, why do we believe we have so much control over others? If someone os going to change, it has nothing to do with us trying to teach them how to behave. They are adults.
Ladies, let’s direct our energy on men who reciprocate our feelings and actions, not the ones who screw us about. Haven’t we been through enough energy-draining confusion!
runnergirlno1
on 18/01/2011 at 3:11 am
Hey there Fearless, we may be involved with the same guy!!! Just kidding, since you are in Scotland and I’m in California. I connected some dots last night while writing in my journal. I was notalastic about our weekends toghter, hiking and BBQing. I thought about your post sitting in your garden having a nightcap. I realized that most of what happened on the weekends was me settling between hiking or BBQing. I couldn’t have both. I had to settle for either or. Either we hiked during the day, went upstairs, and he left to go about his life that evening. Or I waited all day to see him at the end of the day, when I cooked dinner, and had everyting in place. I don’t want either or no more. I want both. I want hiking and a BBQ all in the same day and evening. And I want to wake up with him…not a stupid “good morning sunshine” text message, while he climbs out of bed with his wife. I cannot believe that I was that woman, the other woman. SHIT! SHIT! I want to apologize to his wife.
Lynn
on 18/01/2011 at 8:46 am
No fun to be feeling that anger, runner. But from out here it is good to hear you feeling angry instead of down. Glad to know you’re still NC.
Fearless
on 18/01/2011 at 1:42 pm
Ditto Lynn. I think the fog is clearing for runnergirl – good. Now you will be angry, but unsure of wether you are angry with him or with youreslf. I am angry with both us us!! In many ways I find the NC much more do-able when I feel mostly angry with myself. When I feel angry with the ex it makes me want to have something to say to him! (and nothing he would want to hear!!). When I feel anger towards him welling up I try to remind myself that I really can’t blame anyone else for my own stupidity!! So when I focus that anger about him back to focusing on myself and the daft choices I made and the way I kept the whole ridiculous scenario going… then I start to feel that I actually might be just a wee bit embarrassed to give him a piece of my mind 🙂 ….. and so it’s my own sense of humiliation, in many ways, that keeps me going with the NC… the fact that I put up with such a half-baked, now you see him now you don’t joke of a “relationship” for so long makes me cringe… and I am loathe to humiliate myself any further by having him think I might be willing to do exactly that again. Not that woman any more, please god.
Oldenoughtoknowbetter
on 18/01/2011 at 4:00 pm
runnergirl, I am you in AZ!!! But at least you got a real activity (not saying that counts for much), eventually all I got was what I called “doctor visits”. Mid afternoon, meet at my house, tell my boss I had a dr. appt so I could concentrate on my MM and his body for 4 hours, then a kiss, love you babe, and might hear from him in the next week….or so, whenever he felt like sexting. What the heck was I thinking? Who possessed my mind and body to accept this, and then think I wanted more!?! It was my fantasy about who he was (dated in college 26 years ago, looked him up when I got divorced). No one to blame but me, he did tell me he was married and I thought I could handle it, as I am very EU myself. But no, I am still a woman and I got hooked. Hated our relationship, but started to hate myself more, both for subjecting myself to this ego smashing excuse of a relationship and for doing this to another woman. Anyway, break ups came more frequent, and lasted longer and longer as I gathered my strength from sites like this and counseling. Final blow: NY Day logged into Facebook and someone tagged pics of MM and his wife from Xmas…there she is standing next to him, arms through his, smiling at the camera and I am thinking “he was in my bed three days later, f**king me, telling me he loved me and I am The One!” YUCK! We were both played, but while she had no idea (maybe!) I was in there full force, full of responsibility. Ended it that day, after six months of self imposed hell. Whenever I have a weak moment, I come to Nat’s site (thank you, thank you!!) and read her words and the comments from women just like me (and OMG you all sound just like me, I was not having some unique, amazing love affair!) and the need to contact him passes. The fog is definitely what it feels like. Now I know I should have said no from the very beginning, cause no sex, no matter how great, is worth the fallout to our self esteem, our personal integrity, and our happiness. I want a man who can do both too! I want the day and the night! And we all absolutely deserve both! Good luck to all of you OW, and hopefully you will come to the same conclusion: NEVER AGAIN!! My marriage wasn’t what I wanted and I had the guts to leave it, even though it hurt me financially. If a man is unhappy enough in his marriage to want to come to my bed, he better have the balls to leave his wife/current life first or he doesn’t have enough balls to be the MAN I need him to be! He was my first and my last MM lover.
runnergirlno1
on 19/01/2011 at 4:22 am
Yikes, the fantasy dream world and fog is clearing after 30 days of NC and you are right, I’m in the anger phase. Thank you Fearless for your thoughts regarding the focus of my anger. Mostly, I am pissed off at me for being such a sucker and making such daft choices. Then, I get pissed off at him for leading me on which he did with the illusion of hiking OR BBQing OR dinnner out. I didn’t get it all. It was either or. As I write in my journal, I see that I was living such an illusion and now I’m feeling so humilated and angry with me. I put up with such crap but it was always my choice. I think that is the hardest part to accept. It was always my choice. When I would get totally pissed off when I didn’t want to accept the either or, he would ask, “where do you want me to go, my office or your house”. I would always settle on my house. I was such an idiot. That’s what makes me the most angry. I always said “my house”.
Oldenough, the hiking or BBQing or dinners out were crumbs. He was a master of creating an illusion of us as a couple. I was a master of buying the illusion. Maybe I created the illusion and sold it to him. In any event, we were both buying the illusion we each sold. We had our favorite wines, our favorite resturants, our favorite dinners but when push came to shove, there simply was no us because he was married. There was always an OR not an AND. Crumbs are crumbs. I settled for crumbs. Like you, I still keep thinking, what was I thinking. Of course, I’m EU too, so it worked for a while. My defining moment was a bit like yours, when I watched him being sworn into office in November with his wife by his side. I went through the two years of campaigning hell with him, only to sit on my computer and watch him and his wife together enjoying the glory and celebrating together, while I was home crying, alone by the fire thinking of all those nights I was the shoulder he cried on when the campaign trail got tough. Watching him and his wife together that day in November ended up a month later being it for me as we contemplated another Christmas and New Years via text messages.
Oh dear god being the OW has been such a nightmare. So humiliating and degrading. Oh dear god, please don’t let me be that woman, the other woman ever again. This website and all of you have been such a godsend. Thank you. Thanks to you, I haven’t been that woman, the other woman, for 30 days. Wahoo!
Minky
on 18/01/2011 at 12:32 pm
I always now think that not getting in touch is inexcusable, after my ex EUM’s constant ‘sorry i was busy’ (and then i’d catch him on facebook – busy my arse!). No one is that busy, unless they’re a military tank commander! You always have time in the day to send a quick text or email if nothing else.
My current bloke works long hours, is in a band, has his own business on the side, loads of creative projects going on, but we speak every day and see each other at least three times a week.
If a guy wants to be with you, he will make the time because you will be a priority.
Audrey
on 18/01/2011 at 3:57 pm
@Minky@ well said!!! “you will be a priority”. I’ll never accept an”i’m busy” excuse again from a guy again.
Crikey, i felt like I was seeing the PRESIDENT of the united states he was so busy!!!! (he was only busy when i was pressing him and asking the necessary questions and when he was blowing cold).
Sunrise
on 18/01/2011 at 1:12 am
Fearless, I have been following your post. You have such an eloquent way with words. Your ex is an idiot to lose such a brilliant caring woman like you.
You are at the anger phase. You SHOULD be angry. At him..then at yourself (for not opting out ). Then u have to be compassionate to the one person who needs compassion more than anyone else right now – yourself.
I’m proud of you. For finding the strengths and courage to be who you are now.
Fearless
on 18/01/2011 at 10:51 am
Sunrise – what a lovely thing to say. Thank you so much for your support and your kind words. It really helps. All the best!
Josie
on 18/01/2011 at 11:21 am
Fearless,
the wonderful thing about NC is that you are actually training yourself to recognise your own values and your own personal standards as you side step away from all the drama. By getting in contact with your own unspoken rules you realise that random behaviour, not returning calls, popping up and then vanishing, lying, cheating are not what you believe are healthy behaviours. As you re-train yourself you send the signals to everyone else and people will just go from your life because your values don’t match. Like my ex EU man who is going like wtf she has just told me she never wants to hear from me again and is happy…without me..now I am getting nexts saying he misses me yeh right (very funny), he is just vanishing from my life because I donlt want him in it. He will never fit my values. The same goes for a girlfriend who calls to say she wants to do something but never gets tied to a date so she can keep her options open. Yes, she too can jog on..she calls for a chat…hangs out the cherry of hanging out together but it never quite materialises..same shit different sex. She too is history lol. She is also in NC as well (although she doesn’t know it lol). By being accepting of other people’s poor behaviour in muy opinion I have been over flexible on my own standards and whilst I’d like to hold onto my empathy for others I just can not do it at the expense of myself. My girlfriend owes me some money as well. I am going to write her a letter and ask for it back lol..I can see that won’t happen as obvioualy her life is so much more important than mine even when its my money she has been spending. Its not just men who are assclowns lol. However more to the point it’s the accepting of it that just makes a mockery of your own self worth not the fact that they do it!
done as dinner
on 18/01/2011 at 11:55 am
@ Josie – Thank you for your comments. They really resonated with me – re: different gender same crap. I think your approach is dead on and one that I have been trying to take as well, although it is a painful eye-opener when it begins to dawn on you what is going on. At least for me it was… followed by “seriously, how stupid could I have been?” What I find difficult now though is trusting anyone!
Josie
on 18/01/2011 at 1:15 pm
Drawing on what Minky said
“If a guy wants to be with you, he will make the time because you will be a priority.”
The one line that my EUM and my girlfriend use a lot is “I am really busy!” or “I was gonna get back to you but…..then some dumb ass excuse about being busy!!”I am really busy as well, job, children etc. But I make people I want to see and talk to a priority. They may do to but clearly by their ACTIONs I am not a priority. Thats okay but they also have to accept that you only get PRIORITY rights to my time if it is reciprocated.
Its very funny really and so very obvious once you get your own integrity back.
T
on 18/01/2011 at 4:58 pm
I still find it amazing when I read one of these stories, Natalie. I’d SWEAR this girl was dating my ex.
Ahhh… so glad to be done with that!
runnergirlno1
on 19/01/2011 at 5:14 am
Underneath the anger is the hurt and sadness. How could I have betrayed myself? Oh, it hurts and I’m sad. In the most honest conversation with myself, I have to own the fact that every time, given the opportunity, I sold me down the river for a hike or a BBQ or a romantic evening in my backyard. I did the “something is better than nothing” self talk. Sometimes maybe nothing is better that crumbs. I’m probably headed into sadness. But, no more crumbs.
Josie
on 19/01/2011 at 9:36 am
Runnergirl,
its is hurtful to realise that someone never really had the sort of feelings for you that you thought, but even more hurtful whe you realise that YOU didn’t have the feelings for YOU that you thought.
Self love is not a dirty word! I found that by looking at all I had in my gorgeous life and living it well and to the best of my ability and loving myself, I am managing to get over this negative experience. It is hard asking yourself “why did I allow this to happen” but is the stepping stone to building what old ladies call “character”.
runnergirlno1
on 27/01/2011 at 12:19 am
Thanks Josie, it is ME I’m most disappointed in. I’m picking up the pieces and working ME. Why is it more difficult to “fix” yourself than it is to “fix” others? Ha, ha, ha!
Ms B
on 26/01/2011 at 6:50 pm
How does one get to be the girlfriend? What is she doing right that? What is the OW doing wrong?
Allison
on 26/01/2011 at 7:29 pm
Ms. B,
I think the question is, why would you want to be the girlfriend if he is cheating on her with you?
Ms B, the OW is going wrong by being the OW in the first place….
This isn’t a catch ’em and keep ’em kind of place so I must warn that if you’re looking for advice on how to get someone who is attached to leave their spouse or partner, you’re in the wrong place.
If you want to understand how you came to be in this situation or how you can get out of it, that’s a different matter.
runnergirlno1
on 27/01/2011 at 12:15 am
Oh dear Ms. B. Listen to Natalie and the others. Natalie is so right. The OW is wrong by being the OW in the first place. I’ve just ended two years of being the OW and it was so miserable. I’ve posted before that as long as I stayed in denial, the good times “seemed” to outweigh the bad times when he was with his wife. When the denial cracked, finally, I was a mess and I’m still slowly picking up the pieces. They don’t leave and you can’t get that time back.
Ankita
on 10/03/2011 at 3:17 pm
Thanks Natalie for posting this blog!
I had read this blog earlier too, but now am re-reading it again and again, coz it completely resonates with my current situation…
I have met a guy in January, who was hot for me the 1st one week, and then cold, disappears, and re-appears.
When I told him that I don’t think we can work out and I intend to back-off, he sounded shocked, and cajoled me that I’m thinking him wrong, after his this insistence, I thought let’s give him one more chance, but I’ll keep my other options open.
We even had sex once. We were about to meet last week, but couldn’t, as he said he was busy and tried to call me at last minute. I declined the offer saying I can’t come at this short notice.
And now, here I’m, with boxes of condoms in my bag, waiting for him to call for our plan confirmation. But now I don’t think I’ll be in any mood to see him, coz a guy has never been too busy to call a woman he’s been really into.
grace
on 10/03/2011 at 5:02 pm
ankita
i recommend not seeing him ever again.
it makes me weep to think of a young woman clutching a box of condoms waiting for a man to call her!
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I can imagine the advice being hard to hear – but if this
was my sister, friend…anyone – this is exactly the advice i would
give! Sometimes we need to hear what we deep down already know. I
hope that Marci can move on after this. Take the time to deal with
the feelings she will no doubt have to wrestle with and when she is
really ready – meet someone deserving of her time and
energy.
The letter really speaks volumes to me. How does one ‘abort
the mission?’ Do you sever all ties? Tell him to piss off? What? My
problem isn’t seeing the wood for the tree’s, it’s always finding
the strength to walk away and not taking it personally.
Always choose you.
Also, try not to take it personally. With EUMs, their
behavior/noncommittalness usually has little to nothing to do with
you.
I need to repeat “do not to take this personally” every
time I get sentimental and nostalgic about my perceived
relationship with ‘The Hollowman.’ I must focus on myself and
living in the present and believe his behaviour not the practiced
words he tells me only because he knows I want to hear them and it
will get him what he wants from me. Responding to him effectively
hooks me back into building castles in the clouds. And I am
learning from this blog and other peoples’ experiences that I will
remain the Fallback girl if I don’t love and respect myself enough
to change.
Hi MC, I had an unavailable man in and out of my life just
like the one in the email, after a month of disappearing on me
without explanation (the latest in a string of disappearances) he
sends me this huge apology email with some stupid excuse about
needing to go help his mother with something then asks me out on a
date. I never responded. NC is the best way, although telling him
to piss off is an alternative if he keeps pestering you…
Thanks Movedup, Learning and LMA. Right now I feel
empowered, but I know the next time I hear from him, I may not be
so strong and that’s what frustrates me to no end. I know I’m
strong, but he keeps sucking me in. I’ve purchased Mr Unavailable
and the Fallback girl. I’m hoping I can get my epiphany from it.
Lord give me strength.
OH YOU WILL…one epiphany after another! And the “No Contact Rule” will help you stick with no contact, especially when you begin to doubt your choices.
MC, No one is sucking you in. The choice is for you to
make! Time to block all forms of communication and go NC;
otherwise, you will continue down this lonely, esteem-breaking
road!
God bless you all! I’m working through this. It’s been 24
hours since our last contact…. hour by hour! Give me
strength.
MC-ask youself why you are doing what your doing. It may shead some light as to way you aren’t just walking away from someone who is basically not even capable of being in a relationship with you as evidenced by his blowing hot and cold. What’s holding you back from letting go?
I aborted the mission 5 months ago, best thing I could do
for my broken self-esteem. Seriously, I’ll be damned if anyone does
this to me again! A Mr Unavailable is just that, period. Time to
dump him!
Flipping awesome!! (-: I think it would be a good exercise
for anyone, when they’re confused about a new relationship, to
write out this kind of summary/question, and check back themselves
or with a friend, or ideally Nat – highlight the red flags in one
color, and the positives in another (or something like that) and
analyze (maybe a day or two later) with a BR lense. It can be so
obvious to an outsider – or to a regular BR lady. It can be hard,
and hard to accept when we see we need to cut ties and be done with
it – we’ll come up with all sorts of positives/excuses, but…well,
I don’t think any of us wants to go through the kind of pain we
have with EUMs, and this was a great exercise to suss out the
behaviors!
Natalie’s answers are SPOT ON. I cannot fault her. That’s
it in a nutshell…… You know the score. So what are you going to
do about it, Marci??
One of the things I will always listen for when dating is
the red flaf when someone tells you honestly who they really are.
My EUM told me “you won’t like me when you get to know me better!”
I should have asked “why” instead I ignored it , made an excuse for
this statement, He has turned out to be the biggest asshole I have
ever had the misfortune to meet. When people tell you things then
you owe it to yourself to really hear them and run like hell! For
MC who said “how do you abort the mission?” Its just saying “we’re
over, its through, don’t want to see you again no excuses or
explanations except its not working for me. That’s how I eventually
got rid of my EUM. I told him “I am not available for chatting and
we won’t ever be seeing each other again. I’m not your lover and we
are not friends. I hope I make myself clear” Never heard from him
again! Good riddance!
Gotta say Natalie… as I read your response it was..
“yep!.. yep!.. of course!… 100% red flags!” Such a great feeling
to recognize everything now so clearly… but not so long ago I was
in the fog too and I can relate so much to the misunderstanding of
the signs where Marci is right now. If you don’t know… you don’t
know! The way I see these situations now is that it is an
opportunity to heed the lesson, to ditch these guys at the get go
from now on, and move forward with no illusions and a healthy new
found respect for ourselves, our bodies, and our time!! Love to
all! CC
Absolutely, like ‘early detection’ is key to survival of diseases such as cancer, early detection is also key to cutting ties with eums before they get a good hold and it takes more extreme measures or it turns fatal! (-:
“I told him “I am not available for chatting and we won’t
ever be seeing each other again. I’m not your lover and we are not
friends. I hope I make myself clear” Never heard from him again!
Good riddance!” That’s great, except I told mine about the same and
he won’t leave me alone! He is annoyingly persistent and I swear
that I thanked Natalie to myself last night because thanks to
Baggage Reclaim, I now see through his hot/cold BS. I hope mine
gives up and gets a life. I figured if he really, really had an
‘epiphany’ about us then his ‘epiphany’ will still be the same
after a week or two or whatever. I think mine is knee jerk reacting
to me telling him I don’t want to see him anymore because it’s only
been 3 days since I shut the door on him. Advice?
Fallback girl 101 Cindy, don’t buy into it, REALLY! The EUM
just wants to draw you back in so he can be the one to make the
final break…his ego is damaged by your rejection! Odds are in
favor that it is NOT an epiphany for him, but we tend to doubt
ourselves enough that we start on the destructive path of “well,
what if?” or “maybe I’ve made a mistake?”. Have your “No Contact
Rule” book handy? It SURE helps to keep your head in perspective
when this is happening. Even after no contact with my ex-EUM for
several months, it still did not stop…the pleading, the emotional
extremes (one day he’s angry and fine with it; then sad because I
hurt him so; next soooo in love with me; sitting in front of my
house when I leave for work, calls to my work; dropping by and
leaving lunch for me at the front desk with an endearing note
because he “figured I’d be hungry” (really? a fair assumption to
make after we haven’t spoken in two months I guess, LOL); leaving
gifts of “love” at my doorstep; having his Mum plead with me to
speak with him; sending messages to me through mutual friends, on
and on and on!) You know what worked for me? Baggage Reclaim and An
Order of Protection….aaaaah, PEACE! Keep moving forward and
shining!
Hi Marci, been there, it is painful and reality hurts, but
in the long run you will be happier if you cut him off and focus on
yourself. I had to experience the same thing and the only answer is
no contact. the guy is a flip flopper and you deserve better than
his crumbs.
“Of course you could just ask him straight out, but I’m
going to guess that you haven’t done that because you know you
won’t like what you hear or you may be inclined to disregard the
information and hang around for the good times. You know the truth,
you just don’t want to see it. ” Thats it in a nutshell. I too
avoiding seeing the truth. You want to believe in the magic but
remember magic is just that – illusions – its not real. The ex was
that way in the beginning but towards the end cold and distant. I
felt like a beggar for crumbs – they really weren’t even being
tossed my way. Its quite degrading. Time for an honest conversation
with yourself – you can’t have an honest conversation with him – he
will just drip feed. Is this what you want or something better and
real. If you want real – get real. Run don’t walk to the nearest
exit – save youself the heartache of staying too long and betting
on potential that was never there to start with. A better life
awaits and you can stop this rollercoaster at any time. Why not
now? My stopping was my starting place. Peace be with. Always
choose you!
Cindy just stick to NC and never reply or even read his
texts, don’t take his calls, block his e.mails and if it continutes
change your phone number. I blocked him on my landline number and
redirected all my mobile calls to my landline number where if he
has ever called he gets the message “this caller has blocked you
number, please replece the handset!” If you are serious about
getting an isiot out of your head and life you have to act serious
and get them OUT by giving them no access to you whatsoever. It has
worked for me..never ever heard from him again, but then if he did
try to contact me I really don’t know about it and in fact I really
do not care.
I had an EUM like that… Turned out he was sleeping with
other people the whole time despite claiming I was his soulmate!!
How to get rid of him? Easy – tell him you don’t want this type of
relationship and then go no contact. It is possible to block
emails, block people on facebook, block contacts on your phone or
change your number. My phone company changed my number for free
because I was being harrassed. He will eventually give up. I’m now
8 months no contact, 4 months since he last attempted contact and
seeing a really nice genuine man who treats me with love, care and
respect… And I have my self esteem back!! Listen to
Natalie!!!
Egads, perfect timing. I think the important things here
are to heed what they say and not try to fantasize. If the man
says, “I have issues,” please believe him. In a way, he is trying
to do the right thing by telling you. And he will respect you more
if you listen and don’t play the “I’m not listening” game. Opting
out just means that. You just stop interacting and stoking the
fires. I have someone, too, that I enjoy immensely and treasure
those good times, but a relationship isn’t just the good times.
It’s the good times, bad times, and everything in between. Much
love to all. Be strong ladies!
Whenever a guy tells you something like “I’m an asshole. I
don’t know why you like me” (which has happened to me), I don’t
think they’re trying to do the right thing. I think they are trying
to dissolve themselves of current and future blame. Because if you
get angry and say “God, you’re an asshole,” they can say “What did
you expect?” I just don’t buy that they are trying to do the right
thing when they do so many wrong, some really f-d up
things.
I agree with you, Jupiter23. They may be telling us who they really are, but it’s not out of any consideration for us. It’s like you said, it’s so they can be free of blame, when you call them on it. My ex-AC did that very thing to me. “See, I told you I was an asshole.” However, at the time he told me, he just came across as if he was unappreciated and misunderstood.
So, I also think it’s a sort of bait to reel you in. When a guy talks about himself in a negative way, most of us women tend to jump to a knee-jerk reaction of reassuring them that they are not as bad as all that.
We look at their negative statements about themselves as them being hurt little puppy dogs, and all they need is someone to love and understand them, and they will be healed and whole and happy because of our love. HA!!!!
Think about it, we empathize with our female friends all the time. So why wouldn’t we fall into the same pattern with these AC’s?
Jupiter i agree with you 100%. They’re just trying to manage down your expectation that they will treat you right.
These fools would not know “the right thing” if it jumped up and bit them on the nose.
You are, in fact, being treated with the UTMOST DISRESPECT.
It’s almost laughable except I feel your pain and have experienced
it myself. You really must wake up to what is actually going on
here. It’s bloody awful!
I feel the exact same way about the post, and, like you, b/c I went through the exact same situation with an EUM. This had been the ONLY time I had EVER been treated this way by ANY man, and that 3 1/2 months made me feel awful (about myself, too–b/c I felt I had no voice).
He hadn’t contacted me 3 1/2 weeks (the longest stretch of time, or “disappearing act,” ever on his part) when he caught me with another man. His jaw dropped; he was shocked, stunned, speechless, and flinching his eyes; then defiant and resolute that I should talk to him. I just paid attention to the man whose time I WAS on: my date. He left within a few minutes, saying “goodbye” as he left, with me responding with the same: goodbye.
Funny/weird part is: he married the very woman who he treated the way Marci (and I) (and you, Grace) is being treated…b/c she “killed him with kindness,” as they say; AND b/c his options became smaller and smaller each time he played this game with a new woman…and there were many women…and women do talk.
I actually think he got suckered in by his OWN “Mr. Smarty Guy” game! It’s actually VERY laughable, in this way, b/c he married a woman who is dull and whose face is so hideous you have to turn away when you look at it…like Medusa!
Marci could also say “Sooooo…we’re dating other people;
right?” And don’t back off from this unless and until he agrees to
the relationship YOU want. And DEFINE it. And TELL him that things
have not progressed in a manner to show that the relationship you
want is about to happen, that he therefore needs to change his
ways! The above shows strength, and is the ONLY thing you can do
besides (or before going) NC.
Used,
” b/c he married a woman who is dull and whose face is so hideous you have to turn away when you look at it…like Medusa!”
This is not nice, and makes me wonder what your feelings are for him? As women we should be sticking by one another, not tearing each other down.
FYI, not only did I stick by the same woman, who I knew
when I dated him, I told him that she was a nice person! (Even when
I knew she was not!) FYI also, SHE talks to a mutual friend about
how “easy” I was with him (when we never made it past 2nd base),
when SHE slept with him! I NEVER have EVER called her names, or
labelled her! Change your opinion? Oh, and btw, when he is present,
SHE ignores ME when she sees me, and has our mutual acquaintance
(former friend of mine, now ex-friend, for obvious reasons!) do the
same! Frankly, if someone who is always “looking for better” has
the chance to date not only such a nice but also such a terrific
girl like me WHO TALKS WELL OF THEIR DATE’S EX and who ALSO has an
interesting, happy personality (and great looks), intelligence, a
great job, a great family, etc., etc., he should grab a girl like
that up in a heartbeat, NOT risk losing her while he looks “for
better” and she starts dating others b/c she is confused! NOt to
mention that he he dated MANY MANY women wayyyyy nicer than her.
Explanation?
Used, Aren’t you married now? Why are still so involved
with this guy and his wife, and why does it bother you? You’re
better than this, why sink down to her level?
Used, you’ve been commenting for a long time and after reading your last two comments, I will say this:
It is difficult to be involved with someone who not only rejects you but seems to impact your social standing and your friendships. What he and your friend did lacked integrity and decency but it is time to remove yourself from under any illusions – you have been married to someone else for a long time. You say he’s a great, decent guy and you are growing in your relationship together. Yet you are emotionally invested in this man. You need to deal with your anger and have an honest conversation with yourself. That man was a jackass but you didn’t own him and no matter how wonderful you think you are, especially in the looks and intelligence dept that you have emphasised over the years, it takes more than that for a relationship and it doesn’t give you rights over people you consider uglier… The Medusa reference was an ugly comment to make about another and in fact the way you deride the woman is ugly. You may have a happy personality but you’re certainly not acting happy by holding so tight to this situation. Whatever his reasons are for choosing her, they are none of your business. He doesn’t owe you an explanation and the fact is, you have made your choice. It may bewilder you as to why he would be with someone who you describe as Medusa, but it takes more than looks and all the other things you list. To carry so much negative feeling over an extended period of time must be exhausting. Maybe you should make this the year that you resolve your feelings about this situation and move on emotionally.
Hi Used,
If I were you I would look at it from her point of view. Who knows what your ex AC says to her… If he’s like mine he will be dropping you and other ex girlfriends into the conversation every now and then and that will make her feel so insecure. It sounds like she sees you as her competition. If I put myself in her shoes… It must be very difficult for her too. She probably lives in a world of insecurity and anxiety cultivated by the AC. Wouldn’t wish that on anyone, and she probably knows better than anyone what kind of pain your ex AC is capable of inflicting.
I don’t know if an AC can change. I think they can evolve and adapt and I suspect they can end up with some fallbacks for long periods of time. I didn’t believe it enough to want to spend any more time with my AC. We know what they’re like – he will probably do a Mick Jagger and backtrack and deny they were ever properly married! I hope he doesn’t.
Just think… if your ex AC knew how you and his wife are towards each other, I bet it brings a warm glow to his ego. And it’s not in his interests for you two to get along.
Maybe we’ll never understand their behaviour, and maybe that’s okay. I doubt even they understand. What’s important is that we recognise their behaviour (and ours). And love ourselves – you are not being kind to yourself right now, sounds like you are tormenting yourself over his wife. I think that’s a distraction. My AC made me feel that the other women were a threat but they weren’t – he was. When you look at the bigger picture (the AC as a species), it all starts to make sense, it all falls into place.
I have been reading/studying Natalie’s blog, and reading up on subjects that I didn’t think applied to my situation. When I found out my ex AC was back with his ex, I was fine about it. Because I expected it, because i’d read up on Fallback girls. It all made sense. There is such a pattern to the way these men operate it’s ridiculous. That’s why they should never be put up on a pedestal – they are so predictable and unfortunately so common.
My advice… download Natalie’s Get Out Of Stuck – it helped me a lot, wrote page after page. Reading this helps a lot too. I can’t talk to anyone I know about what’s been going on . It’s difficult carrying it around. It’s very difficult but reading and writing is bringing me some sense of peace. Feeling like i’m not the only one out there going through this makes me feel less isolated as well. Take care.
Hi Allison – thank you and all the best to you too.
@Used
I have been follwing (or trying to follow) your posts about the ex EUM and his wife and ex mutual friends etc… and who did what and said what to whom etc… I feel for you!!
Seriously, I have enough trouble just wrapping my head round the stuff related to me and the ex plonker EUM, I can’t imagine also having to deal with hangers-on, tittle-tattle and back-stabbing from his ‘circle’. Do you really need to have anything to do with any of these people anymore? Do you need to care what they think or say or do? they sound like a shower of arses. Give them all a very wide berth!! (and, by the way, just in case you didn’t know – I’m good at advice!- just rubbish at my own life! 🙂 )
I agree with you Allison. We should be sticking by each
other, and I think that’s what’s so comforting and empowering about
this site – the sense of compassion and strength and support we get
from each other. I think it’s tangible here and it’s not only
keeping me sane right now but it’s also helping me to grow. I have
so much respect for you all and for women (and men!) that i’m doing
what i’m doing (NC) not just for me but for other women too. My AC
effectively played me off other women in that he’d eye them up in
my company and talk constantly about his ex girlfriends (even in
bed once). I found myself comparing myself to them which is very
unhealthy, self-esteem destroying and it’s also missing the point.
His actions were not a reflection on me or them but were about him.
Instead of me wondering ‘what’s wrong with me?’ I should’ve been
focussing on the fact that his actions mean there is something very
wrong with him and his attitude towards women. You see it all the
time in the media… a man with ‘the most beautiful woman in the
world’ who has talent, success etc. but the man will go off with
someone else anyway. And we LOOK at the two women and compare them
and think ‘why would he throw it all away for her?’ We’ll never
understand by looking at them because it’s not about them. It’s
about HIM. His values, his attitude towards women, his ego, his
insecurities… whatever. It’s about him. You won’t find any of the
answers or the way forward by looking at the other woman and
comparing and contrasting. We know these men have trouble valuing
us, what makes us think they can appreciate anything about us,
whether that’s looks? In his little ego-mind it’s probably enough
for him to know he can pull a very attractive woman and that’s
enough. They are predatory. Often they don’t know what to do with
their prey once they’ve got it. The best they can hope for is to
establish them as Fallbacks, and often that means feigning a
relationship if that’s what it takes and all the other Fallbacks
have fled. Anyway I have worked past the comparison stage and I
can’t tell you how liberating it is. I don’t personally know the
woman my AC is now with (he went back to his Fallback girl after I
walked out on him) but I feel warmth and compassion towards her. I
can completely relate to her.
The point I am making IS that, even with Mr. Fortnight Guys
like Marci’s, Grace’s, and the one I knew, they may, over time,
empathize and fall in love with the Marcis, the Graces, the Useds,
and the Fallbacks-before-and-after-the-Useds, DESPITE that they
were, in fact, always “looking for better” during the course of
their “relationships”. An AC may not ALWAYS stay an AC. I am not
“into” the ex-AC in any way–I don’t feel anything when I see him,
even though he acts very obnoxious (like he is “one up” on me). As
to his wife, I have SEEN her point me out to friends of hers, and
the whole table she is at goes quiet while her girlfriends check me
out as I pass by. Then she patronizes me via telling my husband how
cute our son is! She is NO angel here. So she belongs with him, b/c
she thinks and is like him. As to the mutual acquaintance/former
friend, she has made it a point to become friends with women and
men with whom I go back many years, who I am not as close with b/c,
yes, I have moved on with my life and even moved away, to be in a
family-oriented environment. I can’t get away from her! And she
ALWAYS ignores me and is 2-faced when the ex-AC is around. I cut
her off when she wanted to go have lunch in the ex-AC’s work area,
which is BLOCKS away from where she and I work. She wanted to make
me look like a stalker! (She pulled a stunt like this when I was
dating him by taking me to his hangout on a night we were to have
gone out, but I didn’t want to accept his offer of a date when he
hadn’t called me for over a week; I was trying to teach him to
treat me well in the early stages of dating him, and she goes and
takes me to where he hung out to make me look like a stalker, when
she knew the facts of how I wasdealing iwth him!) And, yes, he gets
off scot-free in all of this! Even with the havoc he caused with
another mutual friend he dated! As to the comparisons, I feel that,
if he was looking for better, he should have damn well have gone
through with it and found it! After all the crap he caused! Cariad,
NML, Allison, thank you for your comments. Cariad, we dated the
SAME guy. Of course, GOOD RIDDANCE. But I have to deal with the
baggage–the jackass as NML calls him is just that, a jackass–all
of this rolls right off of him. (BTW, his pals ALL are nice to and
respectful of me. It’s the women that are the problem here!) Yes, I
have to (learn to) let go.
Cariad, I feel for all the other people that encounter
these individuals. All the best with your journey! 🙂
Used,
When you learn to let go of the drama it will be much better. None of this stuff matters, and the fact that it happened long ago, makes it matter even less.
Give yourself some peace and move on from this situation. Remember, you have a great life, no reason to hang on to the drama.
All the best!
Cariad–
Yes, it is NOT in his interests for me and his wife to get along. Which may explain why he told her (when they were dating) that we got to 2nd base–despite knowing that she may disclose this to a gossipy friend (my ex-friend, above) who was likely to (and did) tell me about how the wife knew! Anyways, he told her about us to get her jealous/insecure, of course, and/or to show that he is a “stud muffin” (love AliceB’s comment below)–just as he told another (good) mutual female friend that he had dated x, y, and z (and I was named as one of those letters!)…so that this info would get pased along from her to his then-ex, now-wife. Funny, that same good friend is not friends with wifey now, and she was the ONLY woman we know in common who had the guts to tell her that she saw him with another woman one time! (Of course, the wife refused to believe it, and/or ignored the info.) At one poitn before this friendship broke up, and when the AC was off-again with the now-wife, he introduced the good friend to another woman “so that they could get acquainted, as they live in the same area”, dated the New Woman on the Block–ONCE (but made it a point to introduce her to his friends–why? to show he had “moved on”? if so, was this why he dated me, too?). I am SUREthat all women involved knew about each other and how he dated the New Woman only ONCE and never called her again. She was used, like I was.
I am angry. I was chumped!
My guy fits the EM profile to a “T” ………but can these
men evolve into someone better over time? I started out as a booty
call..( had no idea what THAT was till I read about it online…and
realized it was me. then we grew close as friends………5 years
later, he has love and respect for me, and confesses that if I were
the right age ( he’s 29 and I’m 50…we would be a couple. He does
not want to have sex with me anymore……out of respect…he
says…..and also that he feels ‘weird ” about sex with me because
he loves me, not because hes not attracted to me. And also he tells
me that he dosen’t want to lose me. I know that he dates other
women, and I have dated men as well…..neither of us are in a
committed relationship. I feel rejected………..will welcome any
thoughts on my situation.
Susan, If you were the right age you would be a couple? He
doesn’t want to have sex with you anymore out of respect and he
feels weird about it? Then he says he doesn’t want to lose you? If
a guy said that to me I would go NC with him in a second. He’s
setting you up to be there for him in the future to stroke his ego.
Age should never be an issue between two people who truly love one
another. He has placed obstacles in the way without ending things
with you. It’s really not fair to you! Ask yourself if this makes
YOU happy? Never mind about what HE says. How do YOU feel. If his
reasons and “underhand kind” behaviour is making you question then
take it as a red flag. You deserve better!
Susan It’s a 21 year age difference. My guideline is that
less than 10 years between adults is nothing. Any more than that it
gets tricky. For instance, you can’t have children together (I
assume). When you retire he will still be in his 40s. And it’s
harsh but he’d probably like someone younger with a few more years
on the planet. Exceptionally, two people who truly love each other,
can overcome an age gap of 20 years but I don’t see that here. You
started out as a booty call and have both messed about with other
people. Be aware that lots of young men are under the mistaken
belief that older women are “easier” to deal with because there’s
less expectation and drama. They actually believe we are up for
casual sex and don’t want a lasting relationship. Men really can be
that stupid. That may be why he got involved with you in the first
place. I’d actually put money on it. Moving forward, he may have
developed some genuinely fond feelings for you but you are not the
one for him. I would forget about being friends with him unless you
can genuinely be pleased when he announces his engagement to a 25
year old! Of course he doesn’t want to lose you, I haven’t wanted
to lose many of my exes. I’d have liked a few of them to stick
around and take me out occasionally, maybe flirt a bit and give me
attention. But that’s …. pointless and immature. You have to let
each other go to forge your own paths in life. Not stick around
holding someone back and potentially/probably screwing up their
head and future relationships.
Grace, “Be aware that lots of young men are under the mistaken
belief that older women are “easier” to deal with because there’s
less expectation and drama. They actually believe we are up for
casual sex and don’t want a lasting relationship. Men really can be
that stupid. That may be why he got involved with you in the first
place.” Wow, that’s such a true statement. And I think I know why men came to that belief. (I saw a really popular TV show, I think it was Dr. Phil but not sure??) The episode showcased a group of self-proclaimed “Cougars”. They were all portrayed as animals in their last fit of heat, just desperate for anything younger than them that would be willing to use them for sex. They bragged that they didn’t have any expectations of relationship. The show made NO distinction that this not the norm it is the *exception*, or that, just possibly, most older women may actually have standards and expectations, dare to want to fall in love, have a real, exclusive relationship, or even get married. It made it seem like this is the new norm, that women turn 35 and then automatically give up any hopes of being loved or loveable, resigning themselves to the ‘fact’ that the only way to have contact with a man is to be used for sex. The show was cringe-worthy and pathetic to say the least. I think recent freakshow displays like that episode perpetuate the myth that older women have *NO* expectations. A lot of ‘boys’ hit on older women simply because they have been led by said freakshow displays to believe that she will just come right over, undress, spread her legs, and be grateful for what she gets … silly boys.
Susan, he is indeed a Mr Unavailable and while I don’t doubt that the age gap could be an issue, do not be any under illusions and believe that it is *just* the age gap that stands between you. He is pulling the classic move of blaming ‘timing’ and then blaming something that fundamentally cannot be changed – the age gap.
Fact is that the reason why you cannot be together is because he is not interested in being together but he is interested in enjoying the fringe benefits. It is amazing how we will allow a man to speak to and about us when we are lonely and eager to have company on any terms rather than no terms. Quite frankly the things he has said to you are outrageous and disrespectful. In fact, they’re patronising and you seen to think you should put up with it because of your age.
He is soft soaping you because he is giving you just enough to ensure he doesn’t endanger getting laid.
Depending on why they’re emotionally unavailable in the first place, these guys can and do change but they don’t do it with the person who is willing to put up with their crap. If you think that stroking his ego, giving him a shag, and hanging around letting him talk this rubbish at you will win you prizes and pledge your allegiance to him, you’re very mistaken. If you’re happy to have a casual arrangement, knock yourself out but if you’re actually hoping and thinking that this may become something, I’d come back down to earth. Listen to what he is saying to you instead of turning it into something else.
No matter what the reason, when someone says they cannot be in a relationship with you, it means they cannot be in a relationship with you. If they were that interested, they wouldn’t be resisting you.
Yea, I saw blinding red flags but wrote it off because of
severe disability- he was married! In the beginning looking back,
it likely WAS the reason for all the if, ands, and buts. But as
time went on I used that as an excuse for his crumb throwing
behavior – five years’ worth! In the end he was a real creep,
disrespectful, and so screwed up himself (my take? he was too
cowardly to leave or to stay! and so co dependent on the woman he
said he hated) he didn’t know how to love at all. I made a mistake,
I fell in love, but he was unavailable from the get-go and I
thought I could change that. All I got in the end was five years of
my life wasted. Get out now, Marci, and don’t look back unless he
brings you want you want and what you KNOW should be
expected.
Natalie is absolutely right about what his behavior means.
What’s amazing to me is that I was thinking about my last EUM the
other day and chuckling that he sees himself entirely differently
than how I see him. In a lot of cases, these guys don’t realize how
crap their behavior is! And for that reason, it’s really important
to not get caught in illusions of who he could be and pay attention
to what he says and does NOW. He thinks, “I’m a decent guy. I’ve
let her know up front that I’m not available for a relationship
because I’m not over my divorce/too busy with my life/still
mourning the death of my cat, Mr. Muffintop. Plus, I only show up
every so often, so my behavior is quite clear about what exactly
this arrangement is. What’s wrong then, when I’ve given her all the
clues that this is all I can give, of showing up and having some
good times? This arrangement must be good for her too because she
accepts it. If she wanted more, she’d drop me and go out and find a
guy who can give her more.” Thus, he will be content to do this,
swooping in and romancing you then vanishing pretty much
indefinitely, rinse, repeat. I think that deep down, these guys
know they are misleading women, but that’s the kind of spiel that’s
going on in their heads to avoid feeling like they’re being selfish
and manipulative so as to keep getting benefits they know they
shouldn’t be getting and secretly feel they shouldn’t be getting
and justify noncomittal behavior. He’s really not a gentleman.
Gentlemen care if they’re hurting someone or not. He’s being really
selfish, and he doesn’t even know it. Do him and yourself a favor,
Marci, and drop him. When he says he’s not available, believe him.
Of course it’s easy for him to swoop in and give you the ride of
your life every two weeks! He’s not accountable for anything else.
He basically just has to put on a performance every fortnight…he
doesn’t have to be a real person. It’s way harder to keep the
chemistry up over the long haul.
This is so true. My EUM of a few years ago totally new he
was a jerk. But I dated one for four weeks about six months ago (I
became a psycho in those weeks and had to go. It reminded me too
much of my past EUM relationship), and he totally thought he was a
great catch. Really? Really? He was such a loser, and I cringe when
I think that I ever liked him.
Well, I won’t deny that they come in slightly different
flavors—some of them know they are a-holes and ashamed of it but
doing it anyway, some of them know they are a-holes and proud of it
and get off on it, and some of them think they are good guys who
just don’t want to commit but want to have “fun” and so trying to
still come round for sex and ego strokes but “hint” at the fact
that you shouldn’t expect any more than that—but as this site
shows, underneath the candy coating it’s usually just the same
bull**** with all of them. I really fell for my last EUM with the
“casual” girlfriend who he never had (surprise) the strength to
leave. But I have the strength to leave him. I have left him. It’s
been a difficult journey, but one thing I tell myself is: that’s
life. Life is full of disappointments and successes, and men aren’t
any different. If people in my life have gone through death,
disease, miscarriages, loss of business, and many other heartaches
and lived to be the stronger for it, I can dump this one tool who
expects me to break him off a piece whenever he feels like it and
be the stronger for it.
Well said Learning. The way you describe his way of seeing
his partner and how the relationship works for him is right on!
When I understood his reality his behaviour finally made
sense.
They’re cowards, essentially. They will give just enough sweet talk to keep you hooked (“you’re so sexy, I can’t control myself around you, we have such a great connections blah blah blah”) and then on the other hand not call, show up sporadically, and say that they’re “going through some hard times” or not over their ex (the sob story) because they don’t want to feel like complete user tools and they think this should give the women they’re involved with enough clues that they’re bad news. They want it both ways. But for me, I’m done with these guys. Man up. You can’t have it all your way in life. You either treat me with respect and care, or you’re out.
“When someone says ‘I’m messed up’ it means… ‘I’m messed
up’ it doesn’t mean ‘I’m messed up for everyone else but you’. It
does however mean ‘I’m messed up, don’t expect anything from me’.”
This is true as true gets. In a previous relationship that I got
entangled in right smack dab out of another abusive relationship
(the ex and I were still going back and forth with the full
knowledge and blessing of the new guy) – I told him, “you don’t
understand, I’M CRAZY!” We then proceeded to get into a horrific
craptastic messed-up insane drama of him playing rescuer, kind,
noble, patient (yet flipping on me and striking out abusively when
my guard was down), and me playing crazy woman that just needed the
Right Man’s Love that lasted 5 years. We broke up over 2 years ago
and I’m still sexually traumatized. I JUST went NC with him
yesterday, after a very long, very slow, very painful peeling off
of the band-aid (we remained in contact after moving to different
states, no romance talk…but I was dependent on his attention
though I had never liked him much and was nearly always
dissatisfied after talking to him). All this to totally reiterate
the point – if he says he is messed up then RUN RUN RUN AWAY. It is
TRUE, and please do not make the mistake of thinking you know their
own mind better than they do. Plus, continuing to accept the
behavior does send the message that it IS acceptable. I got a huge
dose of reality the first time I dated a man who set a boundary
with me and let me know explicitly that he did NOT reward
drama-seeking behavior with attention and escalation of drama. That
literally changed my relationship paradigm and set me on a whole
new path of getting emotionally healthy.
Yes Marci, he’s playing you and I bet he’s secretly
disprespects you, otherwise he’d snap you up and not risk some
other guy stepping in. He doesnt want a proper relationship with
you otherwise he’d be banging on your door snapping you up for
himself. He’s loving you up and giving you his best self for that
date every two weeks, he knows he has to do that otherwise you’d
kick him to the kerb. He’s laughing that he’s got you there on the
sidelines giving him an ego stroke. Men know that women who respect
themselves only take on quality relationships, they say it to each
other, most women would boot a guy out for acting in this way. Men
stay with the women who act with self-respect and who insist on
being treated like princesses. This guy is a piss-taker and you’re
letting him. Just call him on it, turn tail and walk away. He’ll
have heard it all before anyway and will have a stock of lame BS
excuses to give you. Dont engage with it, walk.
Susan, your post was all about what he wants and not what
YOu want. How about giving that some consideration. Are you really
cool with being friends. Do you really think an age difference
stops two people who love each other from having sex. Do you really
want to have a sexual relationship? Sometimes you can be in a
emotionally unfullfilling friendship as well and friendship were
you are not getting your own needs met whilst someone else is
perfectly happy is not much of a friendship. Maybe YOU have to
decide if this sort of friendship is really good enough for you and
is it really a friendship at all?
I should have listened to my ex EU. He told me. “Women run
away from me.” He was damn right! One year later I wanted to run
but by then it was too late I was invested after that it was a
downhill ride into emotional hell. We started out in 2005. I was
fit, gorgeous (still am gorgeous heheh) and had a very full life. I
knew I attracted him because I was ALIVE. If I think back to our
very first times together and that first year – it was magnetic!
Subsequently, I have wasted almost five years of my life getting
out and getting over him in trade for what? One year of magic? It
wasn’t worth it! I would advise any woman that is hurting or in
pain or in emotional distress over a man to take back what is yours
– YOU! I did and I’m feeling better every day getting my life back
and my fitness back.
Oh boy…mine said he was “the devil”! I thought it was laughable then, but now I believe it. “I’m not ready for a relationship right now (then listing the reasons/excuses preventing that from happening)”, “your my BFF” (came to realize that maaaaybe that actually meant ‘best f**k friend’ to him), “I love you, but I’m not ‘in love’ with you”. Listen, listen, listen…and MOVE ON!
People really do tell you a lot about themselves; it can be
difficult to listen and really hear when clues are dropped into
casual conversation. My ex-AC soon began to call himself “evil” for
certain things he did, he’d always say he was trying to “lure me”
out with him; and near then end began to use the word “asshole” to
describe himself when he was doing something that looked nice on
the surface but was really a bribe/distraction from his other
behaviour. At the time it felt like he was admitting that he was
self-aware. He was, but he wasn’t saying he was going to change
that. He was letting me know he knew he was treating me poorly. The
combination of the “luring” vocabulary and his propensity to treat
me like a child and take me to animated movies should have set me
running way earlier. Just the other day a man I know at work, who
knows himself to be physically attractive, tried to draw me into a
conversation when we were alone about how “confused” he was about
why women “were scared of him” because he was “so big and
intimidating.” He doesn’t realize a friend of mine who dated him 3
yrs ago used to shiver when his name came up and was really messed
up because she felt he liked to use his size to physically and
emotionally intimidate her. It was fascinating, and creepy, to
watch this guy announce himself to me like that. It felt so weird.
The kind of alarm bell I would have ignored before. I felt the old
urge to play armchair psychologist and get drawn in and then feel
‘helpful’ and ‘liked.’ No way. New boundary there.
Hi. I am currently messed up in one of these long distance,
blowing hot and cold relationships, and I love the responses to
this letter. I feel like getting messages from baggage reclaim is
saving my life. It certainly saved me through the holidays. I feel
like I am going crazy sometimes, but I am getting better,
slowly…it’s HARD…it’s one of the hardest things you’ll ever do,
because of who you are…you are someone so loving, so able to find
the good in people, so in adoration of this person that you don’t
want to give up on it. Give up on it anyway…because people who
would take advantage of the goodness in us don’t deserve to be
recipients of it. Let’s choose ourselves first…that’s my 2
cents.
…it’s HARD…it’s one of the hardest things you’ll ever do,
because of who you are…you are someone so loving, so able to find
the good in people, so in adoration of this person that you don’t
want to give up on it. Give up on it anyway…because people who
would take advantage of the goodness in us don’t deserve to be
recipients of it. Let’s choose ourselves first… This is so true and
exactly how I feel. My EUM blew into town last nite and started
bombarding me with texts/ calls just like I knew he would. Was
strong last nite and texted him my feelings which of course he
chose to ignore. After a couple of hrs of his texts I almost let
him come over last nite but in the end said no. There he was at
8:15 this morning. Had a rotten day feeling weak like I wanted to
see him but then got my strength back and texted him to say, No,
not interested! I feel so much at peace now…
‘people who would take advantage of the goodness in us
don’t deserve to be the recipients of it.” AMEN to that!
Wahoo….good for you. Your post gave me strength today.
“He calls twice a month – I hear from British Gas more
often… ” This seriously made me laugh out loud. Yeah, when we are
“confused” it really means: We are unable to accept what is RIGHT
IN FRONT OF US.
It made me laugh out loud as well. Thanks Natalie, as always. 🙂
I use “snugglethingy” because that’s his nickname for
me…awwww…isn’t that so sweet!?! Sometimes, when throwing me a
bone, he’ll say I love you, I miss you snugglethingy…do you have
any idea how long it’s been since he’s been available to snuggle
any thingy of mine??? you don’t EVEN want to know. It’s
CRAZY…
What is YOUR name for yourself? The guy treating you like
this is calling you his THING to snuggle? Yuck.
What do I call myself? You probably don’t want to know that either. Mislead, or naïve, or stupid, somedays I call myself strong, very successful, and recovering. I am a very forgiving person. I think sometimes people don’t realize the carnage they leave behind with their actions. I don’t think he intended to hurt me like this. I think he needed someone to make him feel better during a very financially stressful time and now that has passed and I’m left to realize not only were all his proclamations of love false, but he doesn’t care enough to even speak to me anymore, although I still hear from him on rare occasions saying he still loves me and what not. I really don’t understand it.
Being emotionally dumped like this by someone I care about so much goes beyond hurt- its damn near fatal. But, I AM doing better, I keep saying that. Maybe someday it will be true.
See…Snugglethingy is actually very nice compared to what I call myself…
I keep asking myself what it is I’m hanging on for…I don’t really care anymore about all those head in the cloud fantasies I held a few months ago. All those hours and hours he used to dedicate to talking to me…I just miss that so much. He’s really someone with a great personality, someone I could really open up to…I thought…
I guess he should pick women who don’t really care about him to mess around with…those of us who actually care get pretty PISSED when things like this happen, and a pissed-off scorned woman is not someone whose much fun to run head-long into…especially not me…I can be just biting sometimes with my anger and bitterness. It’s not a good feeling…
It’s hard… it’s hard… it’s hard… this weekend was hard… everyday is hard… it’s all hard… even when we were getting along okay, it was hard then too…
A relationship with your soul mate shouldn’t be so hard, should it? And I did think at one time that we were so close it was like having a soul mate…he did make me take a look at myself and realize some things about myself… I felt enlightened. Ha ha…unfortunately I’m so devastated now, I can’t even begin to remember what all those enlightened thoughts about myself were…now I’m just numb to the world…
Yuck, indeed.
“He calls twice a month – I hear from British Gas more
often…” This gave me a great laugh, it’s brilliant, and SO relevant
and true!!!
As Nat and others including myself have said before…. people tell us who they are and we should listen to them, they’re usually right.
Actually, it is worse than not just believing what he says.
If you respect him, then you have to take what he says as being
true. When he says he is messed up, and you act like he is actually
healthy and intending to build a life-long relationship – you are
calling him a liar. Lying, or calling someone a liar that isn’t
deliberately deceiving you – either way there is a lack of respect
that will doom any relationship. The other thing is, he tells you
he is messed up. This is a way of setting his goals, and when you
don’t walk (or run!) away, then you have just given him permission
to never heal, to never ‘get a life’, to never be more of a life
mate than he is at that moment. You might later change your mind or
expectations, but you have given your permission for him to live as
he is, pursuing whatever pleasures or whatever else he chooses at
the moment. I don’t think most EUM’s choose to live that way; most
just don’t know any better, and most are fundamentally incapable of
being trustworthy for more than a date or brief interlude. They may
become quite talented at recreational sex and wooing women – which
is a life skill that will cloud any relationship. For a life
partner you want someone interested in being a life partner,
someone that is emotionally healthy, knows what a home is and wants
a partner to help him build one. For this you need character, not
someone that attracts women as a life style. You need someone with
healthy emotional bonds to his family, friends, and coworkers –
this is something you cannot ‘give’ someone that can’t keep a
friendship with others over time. You need someone that is stable
in life, not jumping from here to there every few months or years
(always changing jobs, dating partners, friends, cars, hobbies,
etc.). You want someone that has found a way to be content, not
still looking for something (anything!) to make them
happy.
Brad K. your comment truly hit home. Recreational sex was
what he was best at. And the cooking and the talking. The fact that
I allowed my separated ex to dictate the temperature/terms of this
relationship is killing me. Whenever I asked for us to move
forward, he used his divorce and his children as an excuse. My
self-esteem deteriorated while I was hanging on to the potential of
“us”. His kids would be traumatized if they were to meet me, he
said, but he was perfectly fine to sleep with me. How do I get my
dignity back? I am so ashamed for having done this to
myself.
“snugleythingy” you mean like a comfort blanket or a teddy bear or a rag doll? Give yourself a new name that reflects how YOU feel about YOU not how he feels about YOU!
This whole post describes my last “relationship” to a tee.
Natalie is so spot on, but for so long I lived in absolute denial,
sweeping those red flags literally hitting me in the face under the
carpet, giving him the benefit of the doubt, seeing only his good
points, accepting those measley crumbs he gave me once a month if I
was lucky, and I always made excuses for his vile behaviour towards
me (poor guy, he is “depressed”). He too was not one for the phone
claiming “there’s not much to say”. He too said he was “messed up,
why would you even want to be with me ?” That was one of his better
questions, must admit. Within days he was with another woman after
we broke up, how I feel for her. He had the HIDE though to say that
I could “wait for him” if I wanted and if it didn’t work out with
this other woman he could come back to me. It was always, always,
all about him and his needs with no regard for my feelings at all.
Even I had to get off the insanity wheel at that point and have
been no contact ever since. As you can imagine, my self esteem was
at an all time low in this “relationship”, slowly rebuilding that
since. I’m having counselling about it all in an effort to work out
my patterns, and aim adamantly not to repeat them in the future.
The psychologist has said that he was most likely a
misogynist/psychopath from what I have told her, not relationship
material at all. So, as other’s have said it is so important now to
just choose “me”, to love me, to respect me and not to just choose
the next guy because he has shown some interest. I’m a work in
progress. I might be single for quite a while now, but I’m ok with
that.
Hi Kate, Just reading about misogynists at wikipedia and it
links to something about the ‘Madonna–whore complex.’ It was
another epiphany moment for me (I seem to get those everytime I
come to your blog, NML). Think it explains my AC no. 2. I think my
AC no. 3 is a psychopath. Not been diagnosed (to my knowledge) but
he is one. Marci, you know what you have to do. Trust me you will
feel 10x stronger and more alive without this person in your life –
it might be the best thing you ever do, seriously. The only thing I
wish is that I didn’t get away sooner, and the fact I ever let
there be an AC no. 3. Oh well, i’m here now!!
Hi ladies. Firstly as i was reading nat’s response i was
thinking wow man thats harsh! But harsh is exactly what we need
when we’re romanticizing and living in la la land, which is where I
think you are Marci. I’ve been there and after reading your letter
it just hit me like ”oh my God” this man is so blatantly
disrespecting this woman and she cant see it…and that is exactly
how i was. It’s weird cos I really thought me n my EUM were
soulmates, he told me he thought so too. In fact he started the
whole ”love thing” between us and even after he told me he loved
me it took me year to say it back…but i guess i was wrong. The
worst thing I think is after all is said and done, after you’ve
cried so much you think your eyes have no tears left, after you’ve
shouted and hated him so much and after it all the worst bit is
thinking damn i was one of those women i thought I would never
be!!! Now I feel nothing…i feel no hate, no love for him or for
anyone and i guess its soothing to feel so numb! The good thing is
though that i recently started talking to someone new and he kept
asking me not to judge him based on my past and i was really trying
not to but this guy just kept making me think ”hold on a second.”
So with the new guy i asked him if he had kids he said yes i have 5
then proceeded to tell me their names. The next day i called him
and said i dont want to continue talking to him cos 5 kids is
something i was just not willing to accept im only 27 for God’s
sake..and guess what he says..”Do I look like someone who has five
kids” n i was like but you listed their names for me twice and he
goes i was testing you!”…..I was like huh…point is i dont
speak to him no more cos i’d rather have no attention than this
kind of mind f*** attention and at least now i am stronger to just
say piss off i cant be dealing with people that dont wanna love me
100% and be with me and only me!!!! Sorry for going on…but this
is like therapy man looland you ladies always make me feel so much
better and I hope someone reads this and feels better 🙂
I think you have to be careful about using the term soul mates, but I think soul mates means someone who causes you to get more in tune with yourself. It’s not necessarily the person you were meant to be with but someone who forces you to become more like yourself and heal those parts of yourself that need to be healed. So in some sense these EUMs and ACs, as creepy as they are, they cause growth in us women who love too much. I know I went through the most intense year of growth after my EUM relationship. I praise God that I met him because if I hadn’t met someone who ushered me into a painful situation, I would not have taken the powerful journey I did towards better self-love and growth. He is a soul mate, to me, because of this. No, he isn’t my true love or anything, but he caused a struggle, and I am coming out of it a better and stronger, more compassionate person.
I love Natalies response. And she has said this many
times…a man who wants to be with you….will. This is black and
white. We need to love ourselves, stop thinking its okay to accept
crumbs…and share our men while they look for something they think
is better…fullfillment is a feeling…not one person…there are
healthier men out there…go out and risk finding one…as
elizabeth gilbert says…”why have I been chasing happiness my
whole life when bliss was here the entire time…”
Marci, you’re dating my ex husband. Run girl, run fast!
😀
In response to MC story, sadly when we are out of practice
of dating and suddenly have adoring attention, we are temporarily
blinded as to this new strange EUM behaviour. We felt so good in
the time we were together that the attachment to that fantasy
outweighs the real truth of whats happening. And with no previous
experience of flip flopping behaviour, we make excuses and play
down our expectations. What I hear in your story is a loud voice
saying WHAT ABOUT ME? and you are dam right to be asking as it
looks like you are demoted to ‘fortnight option’ as Natalie says.
Take a step back and reimprint your mind with what a ‘good’ liason
looks like. They call, they are consistent, they remember things
and check how ‘that difficult meeting/new presentation’ went. They
set up times to see you because they respect your time. A good guy
doesn’t expect to drop in every few weeks and visit ‘the precious’.
They call. You never get to the island of Anxious because you don’t
need to. They call and they turn up, regularly. Sometimes when I
read a story now it is so clear whats going on, but I have been
where you are and wasted way too much time. Now I feel like, thanks
to BR, I have a xray EU spotter night vision. It really took some
pain and changes to get to this point though. You have to start
somewhere doubt leads to coming out of denial. You are on the right
track. Just define what it is you want in a relationship, any
criteria you want….. be rediculously specific. Then compare that
to your current situation and see how far apart those expectations
are…. eg. to be called everyday, to see my partner in the initial
stages 3 x a week, to feel happy together and safe and trusting
when not together, to be exclusive. To name just a few of my own.
What do you want? What are your values and bench marks. Is this a
path to your dreams or a diversion?
Marci, you are so fortunate. You have discovered this
website, Natalie, and all the wonderful folks who post here. I
didn’t discover this safe network of incredible supportive people
until I had invested 2 years being involved with a Mr. Unavailable.
If you keep reading Natalie’s articles and the posts, you will find
you are not alone. Some have invested a lot longer, like 5 and 10
years, to no avail. Without this website, I may have wasted a few
more years in hell as well. (Thank you all.) “When someone says
‘I’m messed up’ it means… ‘I’m messed up’ it doesn’t mean ‘I’m
messed up for everyone else but you’. It does however mean ‘I’m
messed up, don’t expect anything from me’.” Natalie and the others
are right. He is telling you, run, run, run, and don’t look back.
My ex EUM’s line, via text, was: “I’m suprised you want to spend
any time with me”. My text response: “I ALWAYS want to spend time
with you” (and ALWAYS was ALWAYS capitalized). We were being honest
but I wasn’t hearing him. He was telling me to run, run, run, and
not look back. I didn’t want to hear him. Toward the end, as my
denial was cracking, I started to hear him. Honestly, once I heard
him, I was surprised I wanted to spend anytime with him as well. In
fact, when he ended it 26 days ago, we agreed that we were both
surprised that I tolerated the humiliation and endured the despair
for 2 years. You are fortunate to be here. This blog and Natalie
have been my support system helping me to see and hear what I was
trying to deny. The Truth. But, yikes, it hurts. No contact is
painful. The Truth is painful. Denial is worse. I couldn’t settle
any longer for a cracker when I realized I wanted the whole
hamburger, with cheese and bacon, and fries. (Natalie, the cracker
line will stick with me for a long time. After 2 years of eating
his cracker crumbs, I realized I’ve been eating hamburgers
non-stop, which is actually good because I needed to eat, finally.)
Marci, re-read that line. Good luck to you. We will be here. Hope
you can hear us before you invest any more time and end up as
hungry as I am. By the way, the time we spent together was
“magical” too. I hear you.
Love it. I also want the whole bacon cheeseburger, please.
I love it too! It’s amazing how we keep going back for crackers, because it’s so painful to ‘fast’ for a while, to really purge ourselves of these idiots! Cheeseburgers are well worth holding out for.
Nat’s line about the time spent together being ‘magical’ because Marci and her EUM hardly see each other really hit home for me, because i was long distance with my EUM too and the time did seem ‘magical’, it was the time in between that did my head in! Not having him was SO hard, but i’m so glad i did go NC. I am eating cheeseburgers now and i will never take that for granted ever again! What most people consider a ‘normal’ relationship is now this amazing thing to me – a guy who ACTUALLY wants to be with me! Wow! I don’t think that will ever lose it’s novelty and for that i have to be eternally grateful to the EUM.
Lol at British Gas – l love Natalies style
Excellent post Nat! And may I say you once again out did
yourself on timing of this one. I’ve been involved with an EUM and
recently dated (very briefly) a second, but that one didn’t last as
he showed red flag signs left and right..so thanks to this site I
was able to walk away without too much damage. My question for this
particular post is that my friend very well could have wrote this
exact thing to Nat. She is dating a EUM that has all the “classic”
signs. He blows hot and cold, only communicates through texting,
etc. In fact we had plans to go out, but she called to say that
this EUM saw she was going to go out (on a social network)and
wanted to know if he could make her dinner instead. She then asks
me to postpone so she could be with him. Is there anything I can
do? I’m really not upset that she canceled on me other than the
fact that it was because of him throwing her crumbs and she’s
jumping at the opportunity. I’ve told her about this site over and
over when talking about men, but other than that do I sit there and
let her figure it out? I know you can lead a horse to water, but…
I hate watching her be so self destructive because I’ve been there
and it isn’t healthy.
I agree. It’s hard to watch our friends make these same mistakes. Just as I am sure my friends didn’t like watching me make my mistakes.
All we can really do is listen, empathize, and tell them the truth about what we see. And lead by example.
My question is this. Why are you NOT upset that she cancelled on you like that? I mean, I know plans get cancelled for various reasons, such as illness, emergencies, etc. But that is not the case here. One of your friends’ problems in her dating life is her lack of boundaries. Perhaps you could show her what self-respect looks like by telling her that she is crossing one of yours.
I know you want to be understanding and helpful, but, in this situation, you are just enabling her.
@ Nicole – you are so right! I had a friend that constantly dropped me whenever a new man came into her life. Only to come back after each relationship failed and I came to see “pass time with me” and use me as a shoulder to cry on until the next guy came along and *poof* she’d disappear again. This went on for over 20 years! Until I finally woke up and started putting energy into people who give back. Not that your case/friendship might be as extreme… but seriously, dudes come and go. Friendships, if carefully tended, last forever. I’ll never understand women who blow off their friends to simper over some moron when he calls at the last minute.
Loved British Gas – almost fell off my chair. This was a wonderful post Nat. Thanks!
Figuring,
I have done the same with a friend in similar circumstance. All we can do is show them the option, but if they’re not ready to deal with their own stuff, it’s on them. Hopefully, they will eventually wish to deal with the truth, as we did.
Think about some of the stories you read on the site- avid readers of BR who know the signs- but continue to return to unhealthy behavior. Some are not ready to address the real problem (themselves) and continue to put all the blame on the ex’s. As long as we see ourselves as victims and not the part of the problem, the cycle will continue.
When I read this story and all these posts, it just kills me how long we “know” we aren’t in a good situation before we “know” we must get out NOW. I’m into my fourth month of NC and my perspective keeps changing as I focus on myself. It’s weird: it’s like each two steps of strength I take comes with one step of Holy Sh*t Humiliation, because the more I learn to like myself the more horrified I become at what I allowed myself to experience. It’s like the full depth of how bad it is for you can’t be felt and dealt with til you’re out of it – like not feeling a sunburn until you get back in the shade. Then, as you heal, and the pain of the healing happens, you’re like, why did I stay out in sun I knew was baking me for that long? Not having boundaries against guys like this is like trying to have that fun-in-the-sun magic times without realizing you’re out there with no sunblock and every minute you spend in that warm-sunny-lala-land you are actually HURTING yourself. Hope Marci gets out ASAP. Wish I had gotten out way sooner, cause I am still smarting, and hoping I haven’t damaged my sense of trust permanently.
@Lynn
I know and agree you can actually feel nauseous as you go through the ‘waking up to what I put up with process’. Shame must be turned into forgiveness for ouself and understanding this EUM behaviour is totally unusual to our normal relationships. In fact I think we have to grieve the wasted time and turn it into promising never to compromise on certain values again. I really like the sunburn analogy. Spot on description of that blindness to harm in action. We can forgive, we can heal and we can recover. There are enough examples now of Natalie, Movedon et El to show that step by step trust can be rebuilt with proper boundaries in place from the beginning. Plus a lot of listening to them tell us who they are….
Good blog Natalie. For those who are in the midst of these
“relationships” it’s a wake up call. I think when we, as Marci is
doing, finally look for help, that action in itself tells us that
we alreay KNOW something is badly wrong. What Lynn says (above) was
so true for me: “When I read this story and all these posts, it
just kills me how long we “know” we aren’t in a good situation
before we “know” we must get out NOW. I’m into my fourth month of
NC and my perspective keeps changing as I focus on myself. It’s
weird: it’s like each two steps of strength I take comes with one
step of Holy Sh*t Humiliation, because the more I learn to like
myself the more horrified I become at what I allowed myself to
experience.” I have been thinking a lot about that in the past few
days, i.e. that I KNEW when I was seeing him that it was going
no-where – that I was being taken for a mug, that he wasn’t
interested in actually being with me properly, just was happy to
enjoy the fringe benefits… I have been trying to figure out why I
continued with it when I already KNEW the score… and Natalie is
right, it was because I believed that “this” (whatever “this” was)
was better than nothing and the more I invested the more determined
I became that I would (I MUST) see a return… I would say as much
to a good friend of mine who was in a very similar type of
relationship and for even longer than mine (she is one of the very
few friends that I confided in and spoke to about it all). During
our chats, I would say to her that I had not been doing this all
these years to just walk away with nothing to show for it! And also
that I wanted him in my life in some way rather than in none at
all… many a times I KNEW consciously that I waa accepting a
barely there relationship – it just seemed better than nothing –
and still after five months of virtual NC I still have days whan I
fall into wondering if what I had with him WAS better than
nothing… better than what I’ve got now and what is in front of
me…that although as a “love match” or romantic relationship with
a future it was hopeless in the extreme, I still miss contact with
him as a “friend”… but my common sense and keeping reading here
assures me and re-affirms to me that we cannot be “friends”
anymore… walking away and being absolutely serious about doing it
– consistently serious about it – is the hardest thing I think I
have ever had to do… and my life has been no walk in the park!
After my ex EUM started off chasing me with gusto, he reverted into
exactly the scenario described by Marci in Nat’s blog… and that
trundled on and on and on… over time – a long time – he did
maintain regular contact with me and in the closing chapter we were
at a place where we saw eachother regularly, spoke to eachother
almost every day etc.. and at that point he would only do the
disappearing act if I started to “pry” or “complain”… I learned
over time that I was to put up and shut up or f**k off. I was
always on the fringes of his life; our relationship was never
acknowledged in “his life”, only in “our life” – it was like we
were having a relationship in a parallel universe!! He walked all
over my life – I was never given a full pass into his. The comments
that Marci has made about her man being a gentleman etc… ring
true also with my ex… and I go with what has been said about that
already by other posters… my EUM thought he was “trying” to be
good to me… he would do all sort of “gentlemanly” things – pay
for dinner; help dig my garden, give me money if I was skint, come
over and cook me lovely meals… but when I wanted to have an
“honest conversation” about our future and the nature of the
relationship he would get very upset and claim he could do nothing
right!…” no matter what I do… I can do nothing right!!… “.
Last time I saw him, we had been out for a meal, it was late at
night, and we were sitting in my garden having a nightcap. He cut
me off at the knees – rude and curt – when I tried to have “the
conversation” with him… he got up instantly from the table and
pretended to be busy with some extension lead that needed to be
taken back into the house…there was a heavy silence…it was one
of those moments when I knew I had been “silenced” and understood
with complete clarity that he was an ignorant f***ker…! I just
said to him “you are so mean”… of course he had just paid for an
expensive meal and a few other things that weekend… and he just
said “yeah.., that’s right… *I am* really mean!!!” and at that he
walked into the house and went to bed… my bed. I sat outside and
cried my eyes out for an hour and then went in and slept on the
couch… (apart from anything else he snores like a buffalo… but
I also just could not bear to be near him that night no matter what
– snoring or no snoring). I should of course have asked him to
leave… but I was emotionally drained and feeling that everything
was out of my control – this was the third night he had stayed over
(at his own behest!)… and I had found it “difficult” as I was
preparing for my daughter’s 21st birthday bash she was having at
home (she lives with me) that night for her friends (which he was
there “to help with” – and to be fair he was a good help) and I had
barely slept because of his snoring… I was exhausted. Anyway…
we had a row the next morning – he “thought” it was about his
snoring… claimed he could do nothing right and I had done nothing
but gripe at him all weekend and he stormed out – tearfully. I have
not seen him since. When he left I finally realised that I had to
be proactive in doing something about this hole I was in… He
wouldn’t be with me and neither would he end it…. I had to take
charge – I knew and I had to get out, somehow NOW and I started
googling for anything that might help me… I found BR. I am not
nearly “fixed” yet…. but I am holding on… I do not think I have
completely let go or really accepted the finality of it all yet (as
someone pointed out to me – and this is true)… but I am no longer
fuelling any fires, I am staying away from him and am gaining a
little more resolve and clarity every day. More and more and more,
I am seeing him as the total effing, using, spineless, asshole that
he has shown me so many times that he is!! And even now… as every
day passes and he does NOTHING to prove to me any different, he
simply re-affirms what a vaccuous, gutless clown I was dealing with
all that time. I now can’t remember whay I am telling you all this!
Sorry, I am blabbing… perhaps it’s that someone recently (can’t
remember where) said that these guys can never have an honest
converstion with you… and that hit a chord with me. It hit the
nail on the head re my ex – that he could not ever, not one time,
ever, have the an honest conversation with me, and that I think was
the part I found the hardest to deal with – that I felt I had no
voice – that even when he pretended to “talk” to me properly, as he
did on a rare occasion – he was just appeasing me – there was never
any genuine honesty or sincerity or clarity – and he mostly ran a
mile if he thought I was even thinking of starting a
“conversation”. Trying to talk to him about “us” was a waste of my
time, my emotions and my energy. I was reduced to texting or
emailing things I wanted to talk about – things I wanted us to
address (latterly I stopped doing that as well, seeing that I was
talking to a brick wall!) – he would ignore these, cut me off with
dismissive remarks or pretend to say something decent (like blaming
himself) which was essentially lame and was juts another tactic
designed to cut the “conversation”. The very worst part – in my
view – of dealing with these people is the way they simply refuse
to engage with you on any real, honest and genuine level and deny
you – outright, without compuntion, the honest and open
communication that you deserve to have with them. I think
everything else, for me, I could handle, but I could not handle
that… as much as I tried to handle it (stupidly) it drove me
close to insanity!! More and more I found it too upsetting to try
to communicate with him – so I stopped – and he was more than happy
with that!! So long as he wasn’t being put under any pressure to
explain himself, to contribute anything that might actually move
the relationship forward or to be honest about what he wanted then
everything was fine and dandy – FOR HIM. SrRry to blab… just
working through some of these things today!! Marci – let it be a
warning to you. If you want a bona fide boyfriend and a bona fide
relationship – you are in the wrong building – head for the exit
doors! Tell him to sling his hook (before he gets it even further
in to you) and don’t even bother to be polite about it – he’s using
you for what’s good for him right now in his present – he’s not
concerning himself about how his behaviour might impact on you or
your life now or in the future. He’s a dead end. I just want to say
that, Marci, heed the advice and be gald you are getting it
–
Wow, Fearless, so much of what you have written echoes what
I felt with my ex-AC. I am glad you showed some examples, such as
how he was helpful, and bought a nice dinner, but then would not
allow for an honest conversation. I think that is what I struggled
with the most with my ex-AC. The way he could turn things around on
me, if I wanted to discuss anything serious in the relationship.
Like your guy, mine could be sweet, attentive, generous, helpful,
etc., but very emotionally immature when it came to honest
conversations. He would use different tactics. Sometimes he would
get angry and turn it around and make me think I was creating
drama, by bringing up a minor issue. Or sometimes he would claim he
was just too tired to get into right then, but of course never
brought it up later either. Or he would just say (in an
exasperated, defensive tone) that he screwed up. None of the
tactics ever led to us actually resolving anything, and I, like
you, learned NOT to bring up anything, not to have needs in the
relationship. And it drove me insane, and left me feeling anxious
all the time, and miserable, and wondering if I were the problem.
Thanks for posting this. It helps me clarify my own story a
little.
Thanks Nicole for your comments – what you describe is re your ex’s tactics to avoid the “conversation” are also exactly like my own experience with the ex. Yes, he would make me feel that I was pestering or interrogating him or accusing him, that I was just making a big deal out of a minor issue. I actually became anxious, fearful and felt physically sick at the mere thought of bringing up what I thought were real issues or things I wanted answers to. So I rarely did, as I couldn’t take the stress of it and also the distress I would feel when met with his dismissive or blunt responses. And yes, he tended to respond in an indignant, exasperated or defensive manner until I felt I was being unreasonable and pushy and irritating. And yes, I got the ‘too tired right now for this… too sick right now for this…. too busy right now for this…feeling too this or that or the other right now for this..” And no, he NEVER raised it again later. And yes, I also got the indignant, “okay! I can do nothing right. I screwed up again!” And, yes, somehow I was the one who was supposed to feel bad about this. And… if I did not drop the subject fast he dropped me, fast. Where the hell do they learn this stuff?! Is there a manual.. do they take classes?!!
I can see now that in all my dealings with with men I have had a very low sense of entitlement. I have never felt I had the right to expect or demand anything from any human being really – good manners maybe was the only thing – and I never expected that someone love me back just because I was in love with him. I never expected a man to do what I wanted him to do… Natalie keeps reminding us that our “guy” is a wholly separate individual, and I always understood that… so I never thought or imagined that I should be telling anyone else what I thought they should be doing or thinking or feeling… so I think this is where I actually had little sense of boundaries. I always felt aware that people are entitled to do and think and feel what they like and as they choose, and that I either went with it or I didn’t… unfortunately if I had decided I really liked the guy, I went with pretty much anything, hoping that he would eventually feel the same way about me as I did about him. Big mistake! I focused far too much, though, on what I wanted; I let what I wanted drive my actions and I failed to take full account of what he wanted; if he didn’t seem to want the same things, I would just ignore that and try to change his mind bytrying to be what I imagined he wanted… problem is that the ex wanted a doormat; an option; a woman that suited and morphed into his needs and his agenda at any point in time… so, optional ever-morphing doormat is what he got.
Marci should do what I have never done! Take the bull by the horns. Be right up front. Tell this guy what she wants and expects from this – and any – relationship and that if he cannot step up to that right now he must trot on – right now, and not come back.
@Lynn
“It’s weird: it’s like each two steps of strength I take comes with one step of Holy Sh*t Humiliation, because the more I learn to like myself the more horrified I become at what I allowed myself to experience. ” — SOOOOO TRUE!!!!!
@Fearless
You’re doing great and should be very proud of yourself!!!!!!!! You deserve so much better than your ex-EUM. Even if he was at times good to you, as Madonna says, “second best is never enough.”
Just wanted to add that I’m in a new relationship now, have been so for about a month. This guy is definitively not EUM at all. I’ve been playing it closely by the Natalie Textbook, using dating as a Discovery Phase, going slowly, keeping my eyes out for red flags. So far, he has been just utterly wonderful – very generous, attentive, willing to hold off on the sex, etc. If there is hope for me – after chasing 2 different ACs for 9 years – there is hope for everyone!!!!!!
hugs and kisses to all
Fearless – good for you! You sound so angry, which is a good sign, don’t you think? That you are sorting through the emotional wasteland these relationships leave in their wake and getting downright pissed about it! That just means you are one step closer to OVER it. Your post made me smile and nod – my ex husband did a lot of that stuff. That’s why he’s the ex!
Thanks Snowboard and done as dinner for your support. Yes,
I suppose it’s a good thing to get angry, but I feel as if I have
been angry with him for years!! I have and am going through the
whole gamut of emotions; from anger to grief to frustration to
indifference and back again… you wouldn’t think so, but the rest
of the world would never guess there was anything wrong with me…
no-one at work would notice anything at all and my family – those I
am in regular contact with – are a bit too self-involved anyway to
pay much attention! I do not talk about it to anyone beyond BR –
maybe I should; I wish I could, I just don’t know anyone who would
really “get it”. I know what I need to do now – I have been maudlin
long enough – I need to get myself moving on with the rest of my
life. I need to make plans for things to do that I would enjoy and
be pro-active in getting out and about at the weekends and seeing
people etc… I am looking forward to the spring as I always feel
uplifted and more hopeful at that time of year… Here in Scotland
where I am there is little daylight in winter, I spend almost no
time outside – it’s cold and wintry and dark or cold and wet and
dark! and people tend to hibernate. I was thrown a bit today- hence
all my heavy reliance on BR today – by an ivitation that came in
for myself and the ex to go to a family wedding anniversary
party… my family of course!! And I have felt annoyed that I am
heading to yet another function by myself (as in single – no
partner) with people asking me where he is – and I don’t want to
hear his effing name, never mind have to talk about him even for
the second it takes to say I am not seeing him any more… the
on/off/on/off/ ad infinitum nature of the relationship has had me
saying this at one function or another for years! And I feel like a
parrot!! I also feel so let down by this effing clown of a man…
and of course I know that I let myself down; I can only blame
myself, I know that. And I am really pissed off with myself too.
And the poster who told me that I plainly had not accepted that my
“relationship” was over who was spot on, really made me think….
and so I have been struggling since then with what’s going on in my
head that I cannot seem to fully accept the finality… I cannot
hammer the final nail in the coffin! That somewhere still, though I
am loathe to admit it even to myself, I have not quite jumped the
final hurdle of committing myself totally and completely and
without reservation to “OVER”. That’s where I need to get to…
when I get there I will, I know, be fine – or as fine as one can
be. A wise and older relative said to me many moons ago when I was
in the midst of a very painful break-up of a relationship I was
struggling to get over: “you’ll get over it just as soon as you
want to get over it”. Those words words have resonated with me over
these past diffiult months and I know they are true… I don’t
think after such a long time that I expect myself to be “over it”
already, but I think for me to stand a hope of getting there I must
first accept that my “thing” with this man is actually over for
good and for always… once I fully accept that and hammer that
final nail in, I think I will want to get over it pretty quickly
and probably will. It’s the completely letting go of all vestiges
of hope, no matter how miniscule, that is scuppering me. I don’t
expect perfection, or anything approaching it, in any human being,
and in my personal relationships I make a lot of allowances for the
‘human condition’, we are all of us at its mercy, and I did make
many allowances for him – too many, I own – and despite all his
crap, I did love him very dearly – and I am struggling to really
let him go. I don’t know why cos he’s a spineless clown. Thanks for
listening to me today BR.
Fearless – yes I know exactly what you mean. My country too
is cold and dark, dark, dark, and we all tend to hibernate as well.
Yesterday I went for a long ski around a pond at night. It was
lovely and made the world of difference in my mood. It’s a cliche
for sure but exercise really helps and breaking routine. In terms
of routine, I also thing we have thought patterns that we repeat
over and over – without even realizing that it is a rut we are in.
So we ricochet back and forth through grief, anger, disbelief etc.
Have you thought about talking to a therapist about all of your
feelings and where they come from. This year, I’d finally had
enough and started to go and it really helps to identify recurring
themes, behaviours and ways of thinking. Once these start to emerge
and you see the repetition you are able to start making changes.
And, a therapist doesn’t judge you or offer up pointless platitudes
or misguided advice that just makes you feel worse. Anyway maybe
that would help? ((hug))
@Done as dinner
Thanks for relating how you have dealt with things. I do go out for walks when I feel I am ‘festering’! I am going to join the gymn and start going for a swim (there is a pool indoors!! – near me) even once a week. This is my new resolution…as of this coming week. I will keep you posted. I do always feel much better when I get out and get moving. Yes, I have also thought of a therapist – I haven’t though looked into it yet… I will see how I fare over the next two months and if I don’t feel much better, I may well give it a go. I was looking online at apartments for a summer holiday today – am thinking of going away the whole month of July – and that cheered me up! I was also interested in a post by someone yesterday who mentioned the ACOA, i.e. adult child of an alcoholic – that’s me. I looked at its website and I see that some of my typical behaviour, attitudes and way of dealing with the world is quite typical of an ACOA… I didn’t realise my childhood could still be following me around!! (thankfully I have never been a heavy drinker at all – I went the other way – though some of my siblings have not been so fortunate, which is a great sadness to me.)
Thanks for the support and for sharing.
And all you ‘Marcis’ out there who are reading and hoping they never have to cope with my “issues” and are wondering if you are with an EU – If he’s calling you less than NML hears from British Gas – You are!.. head for the hills!!
Fearless, Lynn, and all, Thank you for your posts. And
Natalie, thank you for this blog. I hope one day to meet you and I
wish I could be in NY in Feb. You all keep me thinking about me and
focused on me. I may be slowly regaining consciousness. One
comment, among many, that struck me is” “I was always on the
fringes of his life; our relationship was never acknowledged in
“his life”, only in “our life” – it was like we were having a
relationship in a parallel universe!! He walked allover my life – I
was never given a full pass into his.” That seems to be a common
thread in our posts and I know it was the case in my situation. I
hear you Fearless. I wrote in my journal last night and posted my
feeling that I can’t seem to reclaim my grocery store, my house, my
backyard, my workplace, and even my dog. He walked all over my
life. He had full access to my life, which became ours. I never had
full access to his life, which remained his. I know it is all my
stuff and I don’t have to reclaim it and I am not placing him on a
pedestal. We were having a relationship (or something) in a
parallel universe which, of course, is another inherent feature of
being involved with a MM. Beware anybody contemplating such a
disaster. Humiliation is the perfect description of what I am
feeling. It is humiliating to realize that I put so much time and
effort into “us” and “we” didn’t really exist. I’m struggling with
how to wrap my head around what was going on in my head. I must
have been in an alternative universe. As a kid, I was always very
good at playing pretend games. I could think up a scenario (let’s
pretend we are going to the moon), assign all the kids in the
neighborhood a role, and we’d play happily all day. I observed this
in my daughter too. The neighboorhood kids usually played at our
house and my daughter was the director of the play. I’m still doing
it as an adult. I thought up a scenario (let’s be a loving, fun,
happy couple) assigned our roles, and played albeit not completely
happily for two years. I hated when he couldn’t play the role I
assigned him. I think I’m going to make a list of red flags.
Certainly, marital status will be number one. A parallel universe
is going to be number two. And number three is going to be a
reality check; Am I playing pretend and assigning somebody a role
they cannot possibly fill? Playing pretend as a kid was fun. It
doesn’t work as an adult, however. Fearless, your description of
him sleeping in your bed while you slept on the couch was profound
and hugely symbolic of the fact that he walked all over your life.
That is it. He is sleeping in your bed and you are on the couch.
Oh! I hope your daughter’s 21st B-Day went well, however. I’ve got
to pass on a story. Around Thanksgiving, as my denial is cracking
with ex MM #2 and I’m realizing that I’m miserable, unhappy, sad
and unable to go on, ex MM #1 calls, completely out of the blue,
after two years. I never really fully addressed the demise of the
situation with ex MM #1 because ex MM #2 was already hot on my
trail. It’s like these guys know. I returned ex MM #1’s phone call
with the rationalizaation that we didn’t really get closure. He
just up and moved with his wife to another state without telling
me, as though I was entitled to be informed. I found out because
his wife and I had the same hairdresser. I returned his phone call
BEFORE I discovered this website and all of you. Ex MM#1 was a
total AC and fits every description on this blog and every post and
then some, but I don’t want to digress. Well, he was going to be in
town over christmas and wanted to know if we could have coffee and
chat. I agreed and arranged for some of our mutual friends to get
together as well. (Remember, it was BEFORE I discovered this
website and all of you.) As things go with total AC’s, gratefully,
he blew cold over christmas and didn’t call. It was a non-issue,
however, because while he was blowing cold, I discovered this
website. I told our mutual friends that I would not be meeting to
chat with ex MM #1. They could, but I wouldn’t. New boundaries: No
chats with ex MM’s. In fact, no chats with MM’s period. No meeting
MM’s in bars after work to discuss work. I return home today, Jan.
15th, probably two months after the AC contacted me, and now he
wants to be friends on Facebook. Better yet, the pic on Facebook is
of him and his wife. I just howled and hit delete so hard I hoped I
didn’t break my computer. Oh dear lord. What are these married men
thinking? What was I thinking to become involved with men who would
cheat on their wives and think that we had a relationship? Boundary
number one…stay away from married men. They are a disaster. Maybe
I should start a list of boundaries before the red flag list. I’m a
linear sort of list person. Do you think there is a secret website
out there where MM’s, EUM’s, and/or AC’s get tips on the how to’s?
They are certainly playing from a pretty standard play book. Thanks
Natalie for making the play book available. Seriously?
runnergirl – you are getting it! Don’t look back. MMs are a nightmare and they will never, ever be anything else. I do know what you mean about all your stuff and your space – my pal used to say to me about her ex and my own, that they are like dogs pissing all over our space marking their territory!! (not a very pleasant image – but it has a ring of truth about it!). I think now about the chats my friend and I used to have about our “relationships” – before I found BR – and we were spot on! Neither of us, though, acted on it… wierd… that we know it all instinctively but we do nothing about it… we seem to convince ourselves that we are exaggerating… that maybe we are being a bit paranoid…that women always complain about their man and it doesn’t necessarily mean anything… that most men are like this… that it’s not really that bad… that he’ll come good in the end – all bollocks, of course. We need to take heed of our guts, our instincts… if it seems strange it IS strange; if we feel uncomfortable, it’s for GOOD reason.
Good luck to you! F
Thank you Fearless for responding. I read your posts and hear your anger. Your anger is reassuring that we all may be on the right path. I feel so guilty, however. I’m in sunny California, where it was 80 degrees today and the sun is just setting. I did get to the gym today, can’t bear to hike to the beach yet or listen to my reggae. I so want to get my hiking trail back but I know I”ll be tempted to break NC if I do it now. My ex MM so pissed all over my space. In academic jargon, it’s called “scent marking”. He scent marked everything. Based on your posts, he scent marked your stuff too. I still can’t get the vision out of my mind when he was sleeping in your bed, while you were on the couch. Oh dear god.
I don’t know why when we know in our gut things are wrong but we still keep hoping that is really isn’t that bad. I think it may be denial. The Kubler-Ross stages of grief have helped me. We can only take truth in chunks, otherwise it would be overwhelming. Thus, we have denial to get us through to the truth.
I so connected with your description of a nightcap in your garden when you tried to bring up an important relationship issue and he shut you down. Although you are in Scotland and I’m in sunny California, the conversations were the same. Let’s all hang in there. Oh dear, please let me hang in there and maintan NC. Usually, when you are giving advice to others, it is advice you need to follow, according to Melody Beattie, our US version of Natalie. I so miss him.
I also was reduced to test messaging and e-mailing in lieu of having the honest conversation I wanted to have with the EUM. It feels awful to have no voice and it is so frustrating to run into a brick wall every time you try to have a face to face honest conversation but what you get is the same old sh**
Thank god for this site because it has helped me so much, I finally got my self back over the years when I was trying to make sense out of bullshit behavior instead of setting realistic standards that we all deserve. It never ceases to amaze me the predictive behaviors that an unemotionally available man displays. I was contacted a year later out of the blue, like it was yesterday by an ass clown I briefly dated – I’ve completely moved on, not from him, but from unhealthy relationships. I decided to change my phone number because it makes me cringe and I want to completely move forward. I think though, are they really that disillusioned about themselves to think we are going to just communicate where we left off? Then I think back to what Natalie says and its, AM I GOING TO BE HIS EGO STROKE, TEMPORARY TEXT PARTNER because that is all he is looking for, and is probably unaware of his true motivations himself. For a while there when the unavailables would contact me centuries later out of the blue I would think – Do they think I’m that desperate, what kind of impression did I leave, but then I learned it really isn’t about me and as long as I don’t tolerate that non-sense, I can break that unhealthy pattern and be in a healthy relationship.
Hi Everyone. It’s been a while since I’ve visited Natalie’s community. Yesterday (after 3 years) I finally sent the “I’m all done” email to the serially disappearing AC. I’ve known what needed to be done, but I used all the rationalizations available to convince myself that it was okay to continue with him. Having my love tossed back in face (rudely) one more time yesterday finally triggered my self preservation instincts. Much work on myself lies ahead. I think “emotional airbag” is my new favorite phrase, and that’s where I’ll start–reflecting about why I choose this role, over and over.
Managing down our expectations is actually a very clever and cunning tactic on the guy’s side and if you allow it to contine, you’ll be trained to accept crumbs, not complain and be “grateful” for whatever attention he decides to give you. It happened to me and I didnt understand what the heck was going on. Having my expectations managed down was one of the most devastating experiences i’ve had. I think its emotional abuse myself.
Please please don’t let a guy do this to you. dont let him get away with it.
it happened to me and it will leave you devastated and bewildered.
You’re right Nat, its like they train us.
I’m not sure I agree about it being abuse but it is
manipulation. Trained not to expect phone calls, trained not to
expect replies to texts, trained not to expect to be invited to
family get-togethers, to only have plans at the last minute, to not
be told what he’s doing that night until the last minute, to not
even expect…after being told at one point in the relationship but
no longer…”I love you.”
Trained so that in the end you have to realize,
hey….there is actually NO “relationship” here. In the end, my
“relationship” got so pitiful that I had to turn it around and see
the humor and absurdness of it all. He: didn’t “do” Christmas, he
didn’t do presents, he didn’t do birthdays, he didn’t do
phonecalls, he didn’t do going out, he didn’t do holidays with me,
he didn’t do the meet the family bit, he didn’t do the meet the
friends thing, he didn’t do the lets get on with her kids, he
didn’t do the spending time with me in the daytime thing (he was
far too “busy” for that), he didn’t do emotions. I was left
wondering what CAN we do ? It was like living in a straightjacket.
Oh, of course, he DID do sex and texts. NEVER again !! This
behaviour was all new to me, never met anyone like him, hope I
never will again………
Oh gawd Kate. Yours sounds even worse than mine. (He’s a “no longer” thankfully.) Trained down not to expect him to get along with my kids, indeed. He tried at first and then just declared me a near-incompetent parent. I could not meet up to his standard of parenting, because he was so exemplary (hardly). I was just left, near the end, feeling extremely lonely. I even recorded a note to myself on my phone expressing how alone I felt and then – boom – discarded not a week later.
Actually, I do think it’s emotional abuse. You are trained
to be a certain way solely for their benefit without any thought or
feeling for you or how this can harm you. In extreme cases it can
and does become physical abuse. I would say that my expectations
got managed down over a long period of time and some of the tactics
the ex AC used was dismal human behaviour. He doesn’t take any
responsibility or accepts he did anything wrong to harm me. His
ACTIONS have said it all post break up and meeting him three years
later. Once an AC always an AC it is rare for one of these types to
actually change. I got sick of seeing the positive in him and using
that to justify his rotten behaviour. The final straw for me came
when he told me he loves me still, (after not seeing him for three
years) that I have a corner of his heart but that his morals won’t
let him change his situation. My instant reaction was to ask “Do
you love your wife?” and he said “Yes” so I responded “So what are
you doing here with me!” He couldn’t answer that one and it was at
that point I realised that even if he was the most available man on
this god given universe I wouldn’t want him, because he isn’t
TRUSTWORTHY! Those three years away from his influence gave me some
clear perspective and it’s been easier this time around to go NC
and sort myself out. Do I miss him? Yes, at times I miss all the
good stuff but I am under no illusions, the bad stuff is not worth
handling because I’m worth more than just the emotional crumbs and
the waiting game.
@Charla: i had a thought on this today – is managing down our expectations emotional abuse?
Emotional abuse is – to abuse your emotions. And i think managing down your expectations is an abuse of your emotions without a doubt. And managing down your expectatios is mind manipulation of course which is emotional abuse too.
I dated this guy for 2 weeks. Dinners, walks, talks, sex….It had been a year and a half since I last dated and I jumped at sex too fast. But the guy was EU and actually freaked out when I mentioned that we had been dating for 2 weeks. He then started saying, “I’m not looking for a girlfriend,….”. This is after making travel plans, inviting him for christmas dinner, him saying, “let us make this work”, “your boyfriends must have been crazy to let you go”….Anyway, I told him to hit the road, did a week of NC and now will neverhad sex with anyone unless there is a relationship first. Lesson learned.
Truth….as they say will set you free. But it takes time for all of the truths to sink in, be processed and accepted. The weatlth of information and stories that are shared here help so many of us gain insight, clarity and above all truth about our own situations. For all of this I am grateful. Thank you to all you ladies & men out there for reaching out and helping so many.
Here’s a question that’s a little off-topic but I would appreciate your views: does depression render a guy unavailable?
Alice B
I’m no expert but I would imagine yes, most likely it would render a person emotionally unavailable until they recovered sufficiently from the depression, though they may be EU anyway, whether depressed or not.
Alice B. Yes. Depression renders a guy totally unavailable.
Although, I’m not an expert, my second ex was bipolar, depressed
and a b/f suffered from depression. The recent death of a very
young adult (20 years) was due to depression. Depression is
extremely serious based on my experience.
AliceB Yes. I wouldn’t want a relationship with ME when I’m
depressed! If the two of you have a solid background together, or
if you’re marred/have kids it may be worth sticking around
especially if he knows how to get help. But if it’s always been a
dodgy relationship I don’t hold out much hope for you. If he’s
saying “I can’t be in a relationship cos I’m depressed” but
continues to exploit you (sex, ego stroke etc) then he’s just a
twit, albeit a depressed twit. If he’s saying “I’m depressed
because of x, but I’m seeing a counsellor/the doctor, please stick
around” then you have an amber light. It’s not 100%
straightforward, but listen to your gut. Is there genuine reason
for hope here or are you just flailing around in a sea of
excuses?
Thanks for the feedback on depressed ACs. I’m mulling things over, analysing the past so I can avoid making similar mistakes in future.
I recently read an advice column, where the letter writer’s sister was about to marry an abusive guy who had pulled all sorts of sh*t on her in the past. One commenter said something like, ‘forget about her – she doesn’t have the backbone to bear a grudge’. And I thought, hey that’s me. Except I would have seen my inability to bear a grudge as a form of compassion. So from now on, I’ll have to remind myself to have the backbone to bear a grudge.
In the letter, there is a bit of coming and going on his part. And it leaves the OP in shambles… I understand and empathise with how she feels. What may be of help in the future, in addition to what is outlined as explanations for what has occurred, is to understand the difference between a committment and exclusivitiy. From my experience, even when I lose sight of the valuable insight given in the response, at the end of the day, there is a HUGE difference between being in a committed relationship and an exclusive one. Committed is forever, exclusive means the gal has taken herself off the market for a man without a committment– and this can be painful. enjoy your time with the man, yet keep meeting others until he is able to commit. and if he is unwilling or inable to commit, let him keep going around the baggage belt while you leave the airport and keep moving forward with your life. xo
For what it’s worth, I have recently started going to ACOA meetings. The acronym stands for “Adult Children of Alcoholics” but it’s for anyone who recognizes themselves and/or their families in the kind of dysfunction the 12-step program addresses. There are men in these meetings. And oh my god. They actually talk about their feelings, and talk about their difficulties, and are trying to take ownership. My whole life I have been told Men Don’t Talk. Well, maybe many don’t, but clearly some do. I never realized how “normal” emotional unavailability is for me. At today’s meeting I swear I sat there listening/watching to these thirty-something men (quite different personalities and styles, but same goal in the meeting) talk about relationships, boundaries and connecting with vulnerability and honesty and had to try not to stare at them like they were aliens. They exist!!!!! They walk among us!!!!
“We are like one when together. It would be viewed and has been from others we are a great couple. After these fabulous dates, nothing for up to 2 weeks??? ”
“Anybody can kiss a forehead and romance you for a time, but can they cut it in a consistent relationship?” – this works the other way around, too.
It occurred to me as I was reading this that one of the hardest things that I had to accept about being in this situation was that, when we were together, he brought out the very best side of me. I liked myself when I was with him – I felt like I was fun, and wise, and clever… and that must mean that we were meant to be together, surely?
And then the fact that, actually, he really wasn’t bothered about even the very very ‘best’ version of me felt more of a rejection. Besides, I liked that version and I don’t always get to see it.
The thing is, though, that OF COURSE he only saw the best version of me – even I can be brilliant once a week. Of course I could be funny when I’d stored up all my good stories and lines for him, of course I could be wise and insightful about his life when I spent the intervening time analysing him and considering all of his problems.
He never had to deal with the grotty side of me because he never stuck around long enough to see it – he only got the distilled version of me after I’d spent a week filtering out any bits that he might not like. It was fun at the time, but it was hardly a relationship.
Sometimes, I think too that we feel like we have to be the best person we can be when we are around these EUMs. We are putting on a performance so that they will see the light and love us.
I have had a committed, exclusive relationship. In that relationship, I was sometimes in a good mood, sometimes in a bad mood. Sometimes I felt like being physical, sometimes I didn’t. Sometimes I chose TV over listening to him. Seriously, one time he was telling me a story while I was trying to watch a movie; I totally blocked him out and forgot he was talking.
With my EUM, I always tried to be in a good move, was always in the mood for sex, would never fail to listen to him on the edge of my seat (I might get clues to get him to commit).
Being in a relationship with someone you know isn’t going to leave is a totally different experience. It’s a bit more boring. You don’t always feel on edge, waiting for the shoe to drop. But it’s a hell of a lot better. I want to have that again.
Hi all Happy New 2011 to all of us and I pray we all find
that strenght peace and enligthment of avoiding accepting and
loving assclowns EUM mummys boys losers and narccicists! I have
been reading these blogs for over 2 months now at the beginning
some made sense some didn’t as you go along once the rejection to
despair to sadness to craziness to desperation to lonliness and
finally acceptence happens then you realise it’s not you it’s them
the red flaggers me me me me the bullshiters the im so not
listening to right now you crazy despo because I can’t be bothered!
I have learnt so much from Nat you all and have experienced what
Fearless Lynn have gone through nice guy nice meals but when it
came to discussing our marriage and issues it was oh god do you
ever shutup or we have discussed this so many times and doesn’t it
tire you or the anger or the ignorance or shut mr up with sex most
of the times! it got to the point where I use to cry all night and
he would snore away in my case like a pig and would wake up kissing
and hugging mr like nothing ever mattered and I would be sick and
full of despair and hate for him! He had all the signs as we of
blow hot blow cold and would blame it on my negativity and
frustration and ignorance! Red flags before the marriage oh I won’t
accept your child and that’s how I am and he is ok living with his
dad as he was then so I agreed can you believe how foolish I was
and how his hooks we’re sunk into me! Oh as in my religion it’s
been predicted that I will be married twice and my forts one won’t
work due to lack of understanding and my second wife will be my
favourite etc but I don’t belive in all this and you are the one
woman for me shit! My identity was changed while me married so i
would fit into the family and it was temp till all was permenant
with us and so he wouldn’t have to explain me being a Muslim and a
mother if a child who he didn’t accept as a human let alone a
child! yes people I know you think she’s off her mind and a fool I
was and that’s what I was something or nothing as I had no self
esteem from my previous divorce and this man was Adonis for me!
After marriage he looked after me adorded me loved spending every
minute with me we worked together as well (I still do) as long as I
didn’t mention my son who was 250 miles away from me as we moved
due to his job change or my identity and fake name or that I felt
something was missing it was all good otherwise! Another flag he
didn’t want to have a child with me in the beginning it was the
excuse if relocation work stress finacial issues which by the way
weerent there as we earned more than enough to have a child but I
use to feel incomplete use to ask him why deny me something that’s
normal but there wasn’t any response from him except I don’t want
one now finally the thruth came out that he didn’t want to
associate his child not our his child with my son!!! So that he
wouldn’t gave to reavesl me and my dark past as he calledit to his
precious family! things changed when he got his passport and
residency to live here and then after so many convesations with
close friends family I realised the real agenda I was the fall back
plan the divorced mother of a kid was the only option to stay here
who cares about the fact that she actually really loves mr and
wants a marriage and happiness no that wasn’t his agenda it was
she’s desperate and crazy as he looked in the mirror till I find
somone else ! Probably the 22 year old he’s shagging right now! I
got pregnant last year and my I had left the house and moved out
just then just my luck! his reaction action was wow I’m so happy
come back we have a baby to think about and the best he did was
send me an email at wirk about what he was planning to do an
email!!!! Here I was thinking going crazy on I wanted this child so
much after 11 years and with a man I so deeply loved but I was
alone single parenting already and was not getting much out if this
asshole! I was stuck between my feelings and what I wanted to what
was going to happen if I kept the child when he didn’t acknowledge
mine at all! I didn’t have the child and I was stone cold in pain
and hated myself more than him and didn’t feel anything inside ! he
blamed me fir not waiting and that he didn’t force me to do
anything but then I thought what did he do to change the situation
nothing if really wanted to be with me totally why would he resist
and not change the situation!!! Thexreasom I say all this is
because after all that I’ve put myself through I use to pine for
him slept with him wanted us back but you know what he us still the
same an narccicst cold ass hole who hasclearly told me so many
times that he is who he is and he believes that he us always right
and never listens to what anyone says or does and I never heard
that till now him telling me he was an asshole he us and always
will be ! It’s been NC now finally for 10 days and you know what I
don’t care anymore if he’s shagging lying scheming and spreading
lies about our reasons fir divorce which by the way his version of
the story is he treated me badly wasn’t good husband malarchy! How
nicely put by him so hes the poor puppy and couldn’t hack it not
that he has ignored all yes put me through and ignored aal the real
reasons! I’ve stopped feeling anything for him and yes it hurts
still but he doesn’t seem important anymore! So Marci acknowledge
the red flags that are blaring in your face with this loser and
please don’t make the same mistakes I did cause really he isn’t
important and isn’t worth the fortnights either no matter how good
you think he is it’s all a act!
At Snowboard’s comment: Madonna’s “Express Yourself” says
it all. “We deserve the best in life, and if the timing is wrong,
then move on!!” I swear I heard this song 50 times or more to
convince myself to walk away from the empty “rs” I had. It hurt at
first to realize there was never much there for me, but 5 ms NC has
worked wonders. I’m finally actually accepting the situation and
somewhat ready to start again- but now i have a new set of eyes !!
I’m attending Nat’s workshop, “it’s broken you’re not” because I
need a little push to move forward in a positive manner. My self
esteem is much stronger and I’m almost desperate to not think of
him at all, just wanna move forward! I think it’s good to not
obsess about what happened or why, it’s maddening!
Your calling it for what it is, is what started me on the track of seeing things clearly.
What you do here is invaluable in helping people, Nat. Thank you:)
“Being trained for low expectations” is what it is partly about but we have to not acceopt the training. My ex said to me “We are not even in a relationship”..okay so don’t call me every day to discuss your life for an hour at a time. Then finally he called to say he was in my locality THAT day. Which label is stamped on my head which says yes you can expect me to drop my own life because you waltz into town. No I DON’T accept that sort of training because I NEVER treat my friends or lovers like this and I don’t expect anyone else to treat me like that either. Spot the red flags and bite the dog trainers is what I say!
My ex-AC broke up with me kind of suddenly, because I
brought up a minor issue. We had plans that evening, and he decided
to break up with me just before we were to leave. When I asked why
he picked that time to do it, he said, “You brought it up, I wasn’t
going to say anything.” What???? The thing I brought up was a minor
issue I was hoping we could talk about. I did not bring up breaking
up. He had tried other tactics previously to deter me from bringing
up anything serious, so I guess he decided to break up with me
because I was apparently “untrainable”. At his request, and against
my better judgment, we remained “friends”. For a while, anyway. His
treatment of me as a friend was no better than his treatment of me
as a girlfriend. Again, I brought up a minor issue a couple of
times during this “friendship”. The longer I was in it, the more I
realized how unhealthy it was, and I began to make myself less
available to him. Then, out of nowhere, he pulled a Mr. Freeze act,
and concocted a couple of bogus reasons for being mad at me. I told
him the Mr. Freeze act was not the kind of friendship I wanted, and
I found it unacceptable behavior. Again, I was trying to talk it
through with him, not intending to end the friendship. He chose to
end it, and blamed it on me. Apparently, I was untrainable as a
friend as well. I was very hurt by this second rejection, and while
I was angry for a long time, I chose to let it go where he was
concerned. In other words, I did not try to patch things up or
contact him. I heard through mutual friends that he was saying that
I would not speak to him anymore. Total BS, of course. But as much
as I wanted to rant at him, I also knew it would do no good. No
matter what I would have said, he would just make up his own story
anyway. Over the course of time, I withdrew from any mutual
friendships we had. Mostly because I found out he was still trying
to keep tabs on me through them. I am so thankful for Natalie and
all the readers of this site. It helps me stay strong, keep my
boundaries (and my dignity) intact. I still have times when I miss
him, but if I have to be “trainable”, like some dog, just to be in
a relationship with him, then no thanks.
On the subject of being trainable to accept bad behaviour , Nicole my ex also said “I don’t want to loose your friendship” what he actually meant was I don’t want to loose the ego strokes, the long phone calls to you where I unburden myself and the booty calls! How did he try to train me..well first of randomly answering calls and texts to me, sometimes just vanishing, then calling out of the blue saying he is in town or do I fancy doing something. That was all bullshit. If a girlfriend pulled that stunt she would be history and offers of friendship from people who have treated you mean as a girlfriend just measn they plan to keep you close to be the WORST friend you have ever had! Just see the red flags and refuse to be traininable to accept bullshit you wouldn’t accept from anyone else. There are NO real excuses for this type of randomness and just kick it to the kerb and move onto healthier relationships. That’s what I have done. Normal people return your calls, reply to your texts and e.mails in a reasonable time scale and they respect your time and life. Why do we accept less than acceptable behaviour from these men?
“offers of friendship from people who have treated you mean as a girlfriend just measn they plan to keep you close to be the WORST friend you have ever had!”
Well said, Josie!!! And so true. At the time I thought his Mr. Freeze act was the cruelest thing he did to me. Turns out, it was the most honest he ever was with me…to show me his true colors!
“Normal people return your calls, reply to your texts and e.mails in a reasonable time scale and they respect your time and life. Why do we accept less than acceptable behaviour from these men?”
That is so beautifully stated, Josie. My sister, my grown kids, my best girlfriends all kept asking me this question. I never had an answer.
I’m a pretty devout follower of this blog and the advice above really resonates with me. NML, I appreciate the way you place the focus back on the individual as opposed to the emotionally unavailable person. My unhealthy relationship lasted for nearly 3.5 years. When things ended 6 months ago, I began to realize the extent of the damage I had undergone. However, I also began to acknowledge my own agency and role in the relationship.
While I feel I’m making positive strides, there are a couple of anecdotal questions I’d like to pose to Natalie herself. How does one submit questions to the advice section?
On the subject of people replying to e.mails, texts and calls, as I am going forward into new relationships, I now tell people very clearly that I kind of expect a reply to e.mails within a few days, calls within the day, texts within the day. I started chatting to someone online, they wanted to chat via IM an d e.mail. Okay. First of all it was four e.mails a day answered very quickly and wanting to IM into the night, then it became e.mails answered every day okay..now it has just taken this guy four days and still no reply. I reminded him of what I initilaly said and told him now this is how it works with you from now on. However long it takes you to reply to me, I will take the same time and add some, So if you take a week, I will now take 10 days. This way I find idiots get farther and farther away from me. Truth is though this guy is gone, I told him my line and he has now crossed it. Maybe something better came along who knows but hell there are plenty more fish in the sea who won’t be wasting my time!! I am sure he will have some bullshit excuse like his mother was ill, or something and that will really make me laugh!
Relationships are about reciprocation and once there starts to be an imbalance then you have to wonder why this is happening. Why reciprocate too much when you are being given too little. Normal people who want a relationship with you ACT like they want a relationship with you and don’t do the random crazy behaviour that makes you doubt your self worth. It really is that simple
Josie,
I don’t agree with the laying down of the rules. It will scare all guys off, good and bad- Honestly, I would think something was a bit off if I were presented with these requirements.
If someone likes you, they will not need to be told how often to contact, they will do it because they enjoy the communication. Remember, they are not children.
Agree with Allison, completely.
Most men, even EUs, KNOW what to do, know what is right and how to treat a lady. It’s that we ALLOW them to treat us poorly.
If a man does not treat you the way you want them to, then let them know. If he does it again, let him go. But setting up a bunch of rules beforehand will just squash any burgeoning love and attraction. It is very controlling.
I have found, in my experience, that even good men “test the waters” of your boundaries and “screw up” or “forget” sometimes. You just reset your boundary and if he crosses it again, move on.
Your positive, self-loving attitude is the best boundary setting mechanism you have. WAY more powerful than words.
Although I agree with the advice given, I will never understand the weird euphemisms that women employ. “Emotionally unavailable”?
How about “Only Wants Sex”?
Workshy
“only wants sex” does apply to a lot of these situations but sometimes they don’t even want sex. The man (or woman) likes to string someone along for attention, company, to bolster the ego or as an option. They will avoid sex because they are married, don’t particularly fancy you but don’t want anyone else to have you, are OCD about hygiene or whatever.
Or they DO want more than sex but they DON’T want a committed relationship. Yeah, confusing.
It’s not just a term that women use, it’s a fairly standard term in psychology, nor does it apply only to men. Women can be EU as well, though it usually manifests itself differently.
Its certainly one thing to finally identify an unhealthy EUM relationship and quite another to start moving on from it, then another to get to that OVER and out stage. Was just reading the blog between Runnergirl and Fearless about how to actually get Over it, final nail in the coffin stage. I don’t think I am there yet with the odd wander onto his flkr pages to see the latest pics. BUT I am on the way 95% clear. Certainly sure of NC and no going back to that place…we are all different as to what finally gets us to full recovery, I refer a lot to one of Nats blogs in particular 10 Commandments Coping and Moving on after a break up. Commandment number 8 in particular -get a life has great inspirational pointers. A book that has really helped me unpacked the grief side is The journey from abandonment to healing by Susan Anderson. On a practical level what is working for me is having a completely alien routine, so the triggers for nostalgia are lessened. The places he had ‘marked’ are limited and faded. New gym, social tennis, paint classes, new friends and planned a holiday. A Times Travel article states a predicted 19 million Britons will go on holiday alone in 2011, therefore the evolution of many solo travel companies. Thats a start, book a holiday. I am going skiing in March hoorah. Yes we have to unpack the grief and damage and that happens naturally in waves. Yes there are crappy times where being a twosome invited to a wedding/engagement/parties is lovely, but if that is underpinned by a lie where is the joy? Go alone and if you are really not ready to face the barrage of where is Mr x then forewarn the host and friends or take a girl friend. Choice is the biggest thing to reclaim in recovery. Yes you can go and scratch the itch with the EUM, but do you want to now you know what you know? Just say No and move on. Choose You.
‘How about “Only Wants Sex”?’
That would be inaccurate Joe. Some of these guys want a whole lot more than sex. Mainly someone who will listen to their incessant whingeing and give their ego a regular stroke. And they like to have someone on their arm in public to enhance their image as a stud muffin.
Thank you AliceB for making me choke on my tea with laughter!
I agree, they want a whole lot more than sex – just not in a committed and bona fide relationship… and the term ’emotional unavailability’ – being emotionally unavailabe – is not a term coined by women to describe men, workshy- it is used comprehensively, nor is it a euphemism; it means exactly what it says it means and is but another expression for “commitment phobia” – a term coined by a man, Steven Carter, who also sums it up as ‘not emotionally available’.
As Grace says, pyschologists use the term, and have done the research on adult attachment styles. These people do not just want sex – it’s not that simple, sadly.
Yeah I love the “stud muffin” idea, lol its so true 🙂
If only EU men just wanted sex, but its the fact that they want the semblance of a relationship without the relationship itself. So they want the long calls and chatting about THEIR boring lives but funnily enough not yours which wears thin. Its the promised that they ,may leave their wives etc that may get women hooked in. If many men were up frount about just wanting sex and how unavailable they really are then they wouldn’t get past first date let aline first base. The EU man I dated has a profile on the internet that reads “First of all I am a single man living alone” He is in fact an engaged man living with his fiancee the past two years. Its the lies that get you really annoyed. I think if my EU man had admitted it was only about sex then I would NOT have driven 300 miless to see that idiot. We have men in my own town who want sex for no relationship lol! Could have saved myself a heap of driving time, petrol and ear ache from listening to his whinging
Agreed Josie. It’s not just about sex. They do want closeness from *us* but can’t even approximate it themselves. They *think* they want a relationship, but they also want something simple, someone undemanding.
Funny how no matter how undemanding we are and by chance we ask for something, we hear about it. Funny, too, how after they leave us, they so often find someone more demanding, bitchy even, and they take it! I don’t get it. My theory is that they (some anyway) just don’t know what they want and despite their protests of “no drama” – they love it.
Or, the EUMs take up with a mother figure who will endlessly put up with their whinging and comfort them. For the EUM not too interested in sex, it can be a perfect match. A lot of the dynamic seems to be stem from not getting affection from parents, and then trying to seek approval and affection as an adult in counterproductive ways.
But really, what does it matter? What does matter is moving on from an EUM and cultivating a healthy relationship. I finally did, and am I ever so glad. It is good for me to know however that the EUM that caused me so much past grief did follow a fairly consistent pattern of behavior. My case was certainly not unique, which helps me forgive myself for opening myself up to such destructive behavior.
Thanks for the great website, Nat.
I agree Josie,
I think these men do want the semblance of a relationship. Then when they have one they panic. They give us such mixed up messages… come here…. go away…. no wait… come back.
Indeed – they want the intimacy, but not the responsibility. Nat says that all over this site. They want all the benefits, but as soon as they are expected from they freak out and start acting like dipsticks! In some ways i think they think they’re not good enought to give someone what they want, combined with the fear of having to deliver, having their lives restricted, not having the option to sleep with other women. Either way it’s nothing to do with us – it’s their flaw/issue/problem. We should not be trying to save them – we’ve got enough to be going on with just saving ourselves!
Thanks Minky and indeed Julie for clarifying the relationship I was in before Christmas(and indeed for a few dates after because of my own hopes he’d come through for me!) The word ‘semblance’ of a relationship is so true, though I’d go further with this EUM and say he was the’Simalcra’ of a relationship….the perfect wax model. He did all the bits which fed his own ego,the talks,the cultural visits,the good sex and was a complete and utter future faker ‘ I want us to articulate a future together’ was his mantra. It’s like he knew the script and was acting a part?
However I actually never knew what I was doing one weekend to the next…!!!!! he would change plans at drop of hat,he could blow hot and cold like a hairdryer and had no real vested interest in my life or my life situation. When I met his relatives at Christmas it was clear they saw me as’passing through’…a temporary person in his life . This was clearly how he had portrayed me. I was there and this sounds chilling…to provide a service, an ego stoking service…that involved listening,outings and sex.
When he blew cold it involved name calling. I was referred to by derogatory terms,the like of which I had never heard in any relationship situation before. He would put his own agenda before mine frequently and when I asked for more communication about our daily lives I was’difficult’ or not’understanding’. When he blew hot he was sparkling,witty,promised me the world in terms of his intentions and was loving,tactile,keen to please. He was however unable to put any of these promises into practise, and I believe had no intention of doing so. He was stuck.
However I now realise he had more peaks and troughs than a heart monitor and he possibly always had. It’s tough indeed to extricate yourself because the highs are pretty damn high but my own boundaries and strong sense of what was reality won through. Thanks also to this site,it truly helped and helps me loads.x
I am reading a book called “Love in 90 days”. It suggests dating three men simulataneously and having sex with none of them until you feel you are in a committed, healthy relationship. I previously posted that I was dating an EU man and jumped in bed too soon (had no sex for a year and a half). This new kind of dating style delays the sex and gives you a good compare-contrast of personalites. I feel empowered and will never let myself be used as a bootie call, therapist or ego stroke. No more crumbs, no more EU men or AC’s. I’m so done. No more ‘friends’ with exes, no contact with past lovers. I need to clear the clutter to let love in.
I’m a big fan of dating many people (meaning, go out for coffee, movies, dinner, sports, NOT sleeping together) at once, to avoid spending precious months/years in exclusive situations with people who you don’t know well enough to choose exclusivity with.
I also picked up this technique from a book. The one I read was called How To Find A Date Worth Keeping. Same authors also wrote Boundaries In Dating. See http://www.cloudtownsend.com. They’re Christian-focused, but I found I could take a lot of pointers without necessarily being interested in lining up a Christian partner. These books helped a lot in getting me out of my last situation (helped me get into it, in a way, because I was dating a lot and met my guy that way), and in fact if I’d heeded their warnings I would have gotten out a lot sooner.
This was where I was at before I discovered NML’s site. But recently watching a friend become disappointed with someone she went exclusive with rather quickly (cutting off some other options), I’m still a fan of going out with lots of guys simultaneously and keeping the physical to a minimal level that feels ‘fair’ to everyone involved.
Thank you Lynne, I’ll check out the link. I appreciate all the support people are giving each other in this blog.
I think this is sound advice and a definite way forward,sex clouds issues. My future plan is to date like this,get to know someone really well before sex. Thanks for the reminder. L
Allison the thing is about boundaries is that they are personal. I have new boundaries around accepting assclowns and their random low expectation training. When people are acting wit respect you don’t have to be clear about your rules and how you expect to be treated. Its when people are being disrespectful, random and rude that I think its best to be clear.
Allison you said “It will scare all guys off, good and bad- Honestly, I would think something was a bit off if I were presented with these requirements.”
I am not bothered if I scare people off. I am asking for respect if they don’t like my style of respect then they can johg on before I have invested to much time in accepting bullshit.
“If someone likes you, they will not need to be told how often to contact, they will do it because they enjoy the communication.”
That is so true and such people don’t need you to be explicit about your boundaries.
” Remember, they are not children.” That is also so true, and so that I am not drawn into childish battle of emotional dysfunction, I am calling it like it is. Rude and random behaviour I am not having in my life. If that scares some people that’s just beautiful. I have my inner peace!
Josie,
I know when I was new to the info, I felt like you.
I guess what I was trying to say was, that if someone is not stepping up, end communication and don’t waste any more energy with rules. They’ve shown you who they are, so why bother.
Good luck
Josie, I like your attitude about taking the same length of time to respond back to their emails,IM’s….we have to train these men. They dont get to train us, we get to train them. They dont make the rules, we do. And if they don’t like it, NEXT!!!!
I was chatting online w/ a guy for 5 months who says he loves me blah blah blah….but wasnt giving me enough attention (too busy holding down 2 jobs)…nobody is THAT busy to go a few days without contacts with all the technology! So I NC’ed him! I’m choosing my intuition over him. I don’t want to let my intuition down since she has always watched out for me.
It’s 8 days now…I cried once bcuz I missed him…but I’m not willing to be his gf (his term) and only get 10% of his measly time. If he can’t slay dragons and climb walls and give me abundant attention, then I will do my own thing and enjoy my own time.
I also liked Josie’s take on going one better than the guy who delays getting back to you. I did try that with the ex a lot of the time… but he could always beat me hands down – it wouldn’t matter how long I left it before getting in touch with him, he never “caved”, I did. My NC period has really brought this aspect of the “relationship” right home to me… if I hold off forever, he can do forever x 2!!
If only I used that strategy; the “relationship” would have ended much sooner. (One of my many “if only’s”)
But guys, if we start timing when we return calls to go them one better, isn’t the whole thing devolving into game playing? Isn’t it simply better at that point to pack it in and move on? Men like to chase and isn’t that strategy kind of playing into that?
Exactly! I am too old to play games and didn’t. But they do with us, by training us down.
Yes, I agree with that too – we really shouldn’t have to be worried about these things – if the guy is genuinely interested in moving the relationship forward – he’ll call. I just think sometimes it’s maybe better to hold back a bit till things are off the ground, so to speak, and not call him more often or sooner than he calls you… so as to avoid investing too much too soon and before you really know if he is investing at the same pace and level. Let him ‘pay as he goes’, as one poster said on here a few months ago, and it made a lot of sense to me.
Done,
I agree!
By believing we have to talk, train and play games, we are only continuing the behavior we had with the ex’s.
When we recognize we can’t change people through our motivation,we will all come to a much better place. Plus, why do we believe we have so much control over others? If someone os going to change, it has nothing to do with us trying to teach them how to behave. They are adults.
Ladies, let’s direct our energy on men who reciprocate our feelings and actions, not the ones who screw us about. Haven’t we been through enough energy-draining confusion!
Hey there Fearless, we may be involved with the same guy!!! Just kidding, since you are in Scotland and I’m in California. I connected some dots last night while writing in my journal. I was notalastic about our weekends toghter, hiking and BBQing. I thought about your post sitting in your garden having a nightcap. I realized that most of what happened on the weekends was me settling between hiking or BBQing. I couldn’t have both. I had to settle for either or. Either we hiked during the day, went upstairs, and he left to go about his life that evening. Or I waited all day to see him at the end of the day, when I cooked dinner, and had everyting in place. I don’t want either or no more. I want both. I want hiking and a BBQ all in the same day and evening. And I want to wake up with him…not a stupid “good morning sunshine” text message, while he climbs out of bed with his wife. I cannot believe that I was that woman, the other woman. SHIT! SHIT! I want to apologize to his wife.
No fun to be feeling that anger, runner. But from out here it is good to hear you feeling angry instead of down. Glad to know you’re still NC.
Ditto Lynn. I think the fog is clearing for runnergirl – good. Now you will be angry, but unsure of wether you are angry with him or with youreslf. I am angry with both us us!! In many ways I find the NC much more do-able when I feel mostly angry with myself. When I feel angry with the ex it makes me want to have something to say to him! (and nothing he would want to hear!!). When I feel anger towards him welling up I try to remind myself that I really can’t blame anyone else for my own stupidity!! So when I focus that anger about him back to focusing on myself and the daft choices I made and the way I kept the whole ridiculous scenario going… then I start to feel that I actually might be just a wee bit embarrassed to give him a piece of my mind 🙂 ….. and so it’s my own sense of humiliation, in many ways, that keeps me going with the NC… the fact that I put up with such a half-baked, now you see him now you don’t joke of a “relationship” for so long makes me cringe… and I am loathe to humiliate myself any further by having him think I might be willing to do exactly that again. Not that woman any more, please god.
runnergirl, I am you in AZ!!! But at least you got a real activity (not saying that counts for much), eventually all I got was what I called “doctor visits”. Mid afternoon, meet at my house, tell my boss I had a dr. appt so I could concentrate on my MM and his body for 4 hours, then a kiss, love you babe, and might hear from him in the next week….or so, whenever he felt like sexting. What the heck was I thinking? Who possessed my mind and body to accept this, and then think I wanted more!?! It was my fantasy about who he was (dated in college 26 years ago, looked him up when I got divorced). No one to blame but me, he did tell me he was married and I thought I could handle it, as I am very EU myself. But no, I am still a woman and I got hooked. Hated our relationship, but started to hate myself more, both for subjecting myself to this ego smashing excuse of a relationship and for doing this to another woman. Anyway, break ups came more frequent, and lasted longer and longer as I gathered my strength from sites like this and counseling. Final blow: NY Day logged into Facebook and someone tagged pics of MM and his wife from Xmas…there she is standing next to him, arms through his, smiling at the camera and I am thinking “he was in my bed three days later, f**king me, telling me he loved me and I am The One!” YUCK! We were both played, but while she had no idea (maybe!) I was in there full force, full of responsibility. Ended it that day, after six months of self imposed hell. Whenever I have a weak moment, I come to Nat’s site (thank you, thank you!!) and read her words and the comments from women just like me (and OMG you all sound just like me, I was not having some unique, amazing love affair!) and the need to contact him passes. The fog is definitely what it feels like. Now I know I should have said no from the very beginning, cause no sex, no matter how great, is worth the fallout to our self esteem, our personal integrity, and our happiness. I want a man who can do both too! I want the day and the night! And we all absolutely deserve both! Good luck to all of you OW, and hopefully you will come to the same conclusion: NEVER AGAIN!! My marriage wasn’t what I wanted and I had the guts to leave it, even though it hurt me financially. If a man is unhappy enough in his marriage to want to come to my bed, he better have the balls to leave his wife/current life first or he doesn’t have enough balls to be the MAN I need him to be! He was my first and my last MM lover.
Yikes, the fantasy dream world and fog is clearing after 30 days of NC and you are right, I’m in the anger phase. Thank you Fearless for your thoughts regarding the focus of my anger. Mostly, I am pissed off at me for being such a sucker and making such daft choices. Then, I get pissed off at him for leading me on which he did with the illusion of hiking OR BBQing OR dinnner out. I didn’t get it all. It was either or. As I write in my journal, I see that I was living such an illusion and now I’m feeling so humilated and angry with me. I put up with such crap but it was always my choice. I think that is the hardest part to accept. It was always my choice. When I would get totally pissed off when I didn’t want to accept the either or, he would ask, “where do you want me to go, my office or your house”. I would always settle on my house. I was such an idiot. That’s what makes me the most angry. I always said “my house”.
Oldenough, the hiking or BBQing or dinners out were crumbs. He was a master of creating an illusion of us as a couple. I was a master of buying the illusion. Maybe I created the illusion and sold it to him. In any event, we were both buying the illusion we each sold. We had our favorite wines, our favorite resturants, our favorite dinners but when push came to shove, there simply was no us because he was married. There was always an OR not an AND. Crumbs are crumbs. I settled for crumbs. Like you, I still keep thinking, what was I thinking. Of course, I’m EU too, so it worked for a while. My defining moment was a bit like yours, when I watched him being sworn into office in November with his wife by his side. I went through the two years of campaigning hell with him, only to sit on my computer and watch him and his wife together enjoying the glory and celebrating together, while I was home crying, alone by the fire thinking of all those nights I was the shoulder he cried on when the campaign trail got tough. Watching him and his wife together that day in November ended up a month later being it for me as we contemplated another Christmas and New Years via text messages.
Oh dear god being the OW has been such a nightmare. So humiliating and degrading. Oh dear god, please don’t let me be that woman, the other woman ever again. This website and all of you have been such a godsend. Thank you. Thanks to you, I haven’t been that woman, the other woman, for 30 days. Wahoo!
I always now think that not getting in touch is inexcusable, after my ex EUM’s constant ‘sorry i was busy’ (and then i’d catch him on facebook – busy my arse!). No one is that busy, unless they’re a military tank commander! You always have time in the day to send a quick text or email if nothing else.
My current bloke works long hours, is in a band, has his own business on the side, loads of creative projects going on, but we speak every day and see each other at least three times a week.
If a guy wants to be with you, he will make the time because you will be a priority.
@Minky@ well said!!! “you will be a priority”. I’ll never accept an”i’m busy” excuse again from a guy again.
Crikey, i felt like I was seeing the PRESIDENT of the united states he was so busy!!!! (he was only busy when i was pressing him and asking the necessary questions and when he was blowing cold).
Fearless, I have been following your post. You have such an eloquent way with words. Your ex is an idiot to lose such a brilliant caring woman like you.
You are at the anger phase. You SHOULD be angry. At him..then at yourself (for not opting out ). Then u have to be compassionate to the one person who needs compassion more than anyone else right now – yourself.
I’m proud of you. For finding the strengths and courage to be who you are now.
Sunrise – what a lovely thing to say. Thank you so much for your support and your kind words. It really helps. All the best!
Fearless,
the wonderful thing about NC is that you are actually training yourself to recognise your own values and your own personal standards as you side step away from all the drama. By getting in contact with your own unspoken rules you realise that random behaviour, not returning calls, popping up and then vanishing, lying, cheating are not what you believe are healthy behaviours. As you re-train yourself you send the signals to everyone else and people will just go from your life because your values don’t match. Like my ex EU man who is going like wtf she has just told me she never wants to hear from me again and is happy…without me..now I am getting nexts saying he misses me yeh right (very funny), he is just vanishing from my life because I donlt want him in it. He will never fit my values. The same goes for a girlfriend who calls to say she wants to do something but never gets tied to a date so she can keep her options open. Yes, she too can jog on..she calls for a chat…hangs out the cherry of hanging out together but it never quite materialises..same shit different sex. She too is history lol. She is also in NC as well (although she doesn’t know it lol). By being accepting of other people’s poor behaviour in muy opinion I have been over flexible on my own standards and whilst I’d like to hold onto my empathy for others I just can not do it at the expense of myself. My girlfriend owes me some money as well. I am going to write her a letter and ask for it back lol..I can see that won’t happen as obvioualy her life is so much more important than mine even when its my money she has been spending. Its not just men who are assclowns lol. However more to the point it’s the accepting of it that just makes a mockery of your own self worth not the fact that they do it!
@ Josie – Thank you for your comments. They really resonated with me – re: different gender same crap. I think your approach is dead on and one that I have been trying to take as well, although it is a painful eye-opener when it begins to dawn on you what is going on. At least for me it was… followed by “seriously, how stupid could I have been?” What I find difficult now though is trusting anyone!
Drawing on what Minky said
“If a guy wants to be with you, he will make the time because you will be a priority.”
The one line that my EUM and my girlfriend use a lot is “I am really busy!” or “I was gonna get back to you but…..then some dumb ass excuse about being busy!!”I am really busy as well, job, children etc. But I make people I want to see and talk to a priority. They may do to but clearly by their ACTIONs I am not a priority. Thats okay but they also have to accept that you only get PRIORITY rights to my time if it is reciprocated.
Its very funny really and so very obvious once you get your own integrity back.
I still find it amazing when I read one of these stories, Natalie. I’d SWEAR this girl was dating my ex.
Ahhh… so glad to be done with that!
Underneath the anger is the hurt and sadness. How could I have betrayed myself? Oh, it hurts and I’m sad. In the most honest conversation with myself, I have to own the fact that every time, given the opportunity, I sold me down the river for a hike or a BBQ or a romantic evening in my backyard. I did the “something is better than nothing” self talk. Sometimes maybe nothing is better that crumbs. I’m probably headed into sadness. But, no more crumbs.
Runnergirl,
its is hurtful to realise that someone never really had the sort of feelings for you that you thought, but even more hurtful whe you realise that YOU didn’t have the feelings for YOU that you thought.
Self love is not a dirty word! I found that by looking at all I had in my gorgeous life and living it well and to the best of my ability and loving myself, I am managing to get over this negative experience. It is hard asking yourself “why did I allow this to happen” but is the stepping stone to building what old ladies call “character”.
Thanks Josie, it is ME I’m most disappointed in. I’m picking up the pieces and working ME. Why is it more difficult to “fix” yourself than it is to “fix” others? Ha, ha, ha!
How does one get to be the girlfriend? What is she doing right that? What is the OW doing wrong?
Ms. B,
I think the question is, why would you want to be the girlfriend if he is cheating on her with you?
Don’t you want someone that is loyal to one?
Ms B :
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/reader-advice-if-he-doesnt-want-a-relationship-why-is-he-with-her-when-he-could-be-mistreating-me-instead/
Ms B, the OW is going wrong by being the OW in the first place….
This isn’t a catch ’em and keep ’em kind of place so I must warn that if you’re looking for advice on how to get someone who is attached to leave their spouse or partner, you’re in the wrong place.
If you want to understand how you came to be in this situation or how you can get out of it, that’s a different matter.
Oh dear Ms. B. Listen to Natalie and the others. Natalie is so right. The OW is wrong by being the OW in the first place. I’ve just ended two years of being the OW and it was so miserable. I’ve posted before that as long as I stayed in denial, the good times “seemed” to outweigh the bad times when he was with his wife. When the denial cracked, finally, I was a mess and I’m still slowly picking up the pieces. They don’t leave and you can’t get that time back.
Thanks Natalie for posting this blog!
I had read this blog earlier too, but now am re-reading it again and again, coz it completely resonates with my current situation…
I have met a guy in January, who was hot for me the 1st one week, and then cold, disappears, and re-appears.
When I told him that I don’t think we can work out and I intend to back-off, he sounded shocked, and cajoled me that I’m thinking him wrong, after his this insistence, I thought let’s give him one more chance, but I’ll keep my other options open.
We even had sex once. We were about to meet last week, but couldn’t, as he said he was busy and tried to call me at last minute. I declined the offer saying I can’t come at this short notice.
And now, here I’m, with boxes of condoms in my bag, waiting for him to call for our plan confirmation. But now I don’t think I’ll be in any mood to see him, coz a guy has never been too busy to call a woman he’s been really into.
ankita
i recommend not seeing him ever again.
it makes me weep to think of a young woman clutching a box of condoms waiting for a man to call her!