Often, when people tell me stories, while the situations in themselves that they describe may be awful, what can really appall me are the seriously dodgy conclusions that are jumped to. If you have major rumination and panicking sessions about what you think people are thinking/saying about you, or what you think it will mean about you if you do or don’t say or do something, or your default setting is to relate everything back to you as some sort of negative indication, there’s a major processing gap occurring between you receiving ‘feedback’ and the conclusion that actually makes you over-receptive to feedback.
Being an ‘Over-Receiver’ taking stuff to the nth degree with your inverted ego issues ( “It’s about me”) and bad maths (2 + 2 = 52) can be pretty torturous and much of the pain is actually of your own making because it’s like you take it that the meaning you apply is correct even though you haven’t truly given any great deal of consideration to any other possibilities.
When something bad happens, or when someone does something shitty, or something doesn’t work out, you over-receive it as feedback that you’re not good enough, or that you did something wrong, or that you need to ‘change’, or that this one or that one is thinking something about you, that you might as well not bother trying, or that you‘re unlucky, or something. There’s always got to be something.
This type of jumping to dodgy conclusions malarkey is frighteningly common and the truth is, we can all be guilty at times – a friend and I were talking about how sometimes when people tell you that they need to talk to you about something, you can go into paranoid overdrive and wonder what you may have done to p*ss them off…even when you know you haven’t done anything! It’s that Why? What Have I Done? Paranoia. When they call and it’s to ask you to dinner, or to tell you a secret, or to lament their relationship woes or basically anything that doesn’t involve you having done something wrong, you can end up feeling a tad foolish.
Of course if you have done something that’s another matter, but people who jump to dodgy conclusions tend to think that ‘doing something wrong’ is basically living and breathing. They let their insecurities get the better of them instead of addressing them.
When another friend heard about someone else’s promotion, she was convinced that it was some sort of message about her own position. “They obviously don’t value me if she’s got that job” she fumed and she was firing off her CV to various places and meeting up with recruitment companies while seething over the rejection. She figured she’d better jump before she was pushed. Three weeks later she was pretty damn embarrassed when not only did her boss ask her if there was anything she wanted to talk about because she’d been behaving really oddly, but that if she did still see herself at the company, there was a new promoted role that he’d earmarked for her. She’s starting to recognise that she doesn’t internalise her achievements but also that due to stuff outside work (relationship problems), she’s become increasingly insecure and between measuring herself against colleagues and using what does and doesn’t happen for validation, she’s wearing out her own brain and nearly jeopardised her job.
You’ll know that you’re an Over-Receiver if you’re also an over-empathiser, which is where in the process of thinking that you’re empathising – putting yourself in another person’s shoes to better understand their position – you actually end up putting yourself in their shoes, forgetting all about them, thinking about what you would think, feel, or do in that situation and then deciding that it’s what they’re thinking, feeling and doing.
You are a projector which has got nothing to do with empathy and is actually…bullshitting.
If you struggle to give feedback, which may be as ‘simple’ as saying NO, or asserting your own opinion, or having and maintaining boundaries, you’re also going to have over-receiving issues because it’s the fact that you jump to conclusions about what you saying NO will mean or the consequences of asserting your opinion or boundaries that stops you from giving feedback in the first place. The awful part is that these dodgy conclusions only leave you feeling bad about you while often giving those around you free reign.
Now I get it – saying NO is not easy but neither are a lot of things that we have to do in life but we just go ahead and do them anyway. The truth is, if you have an issue saying NO and you’ve either jumped to the conclusion that you’re mean / nasty / a bad person / stingy / tight / selfish etc., and/or you’ve jumped to the conclusion that the person is going to be terribly affected by you saying NO (or showing no via boundaries), you’re so way off base. I hate to break it to you – you’re just not that powerful.
When someone receives NO, they can always try their luck elsewhere. You have the option of saying YES or NO because you have options. You are not the only person with the power to say YES. You’re not and as many a reader of this blog can attest to, when one person won’t say yes to do something that would bust their boundaries or just isn’t what they want to do, somebody else will.
NO means NO. Where is the judgement in that? I remember when some guys would try to put the pressure on about having sex – when I said NO it’s because I didn’t want to, irrespective of whether they were the best guy on earth or the worst one.
How are you making a judgement about someone by saying NO and having boundaries that you’re supposed to have anyway?
Why do you have to make a judgement about you?
I also guarantee you that they have heard NO before – don’t project your own fear of hearing NO onto them or anoint yourself with powers that are beyond your scope because when you jump to these conclusions, you feel bad as a result of jumping to these conclusions, but if you for instance say YES, you’re going to feel bad about this too!
This means you have to change your thinking by not just running with the conclusion without due process. Slow it down…way down.
Is there any other possible reason why such and such is happening? Have I actually done something identifiably wrong? Are there other people who could be responsible? Am I having a disproportionate response? Am I making something about me that isn’t wholly and solely about me or even nothing to do with me? Am I projecting?
That’s what jumping to dodgy conclusions is – projecting your insecurities onto others and then making it fact. Why do you have to make a judgement about you?
Why does something unfavourable happening mean that you’re not good enough or that you’re X,Y,Z? Couldn’t it mean something else?
Why do you have to take the fall? See my post on the One False Move Mentality.
If the conclusions that you’re forming about you leave you feeling bad and have you doing stuff off the back of them that busts your own boundaries, it’s time to form different conclusions and take different actions because this perspective isn’t working for you.
Your thoughts?
*Updated 7.30 am GMT – The comments are now open. That’ll teach me to go into the system on my iPad!
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NML – Prophet of the Modern Age
Amen to that! This blog, in conjunction with my therapy, has saved my life. Literally. Thank you NML!!!
While waiting to post a reply I wrote out my whole story of dealing with this landlord issue and with trying to do right by me while doing right by my roommate. But it seems my roommate’s sense of doing right by himself involves less doing right by me than the other way around.
The whole story is too long to post here and it’s all drama and I guess the arguments in their detail are pointless.
It has come to me having said yes to another place, on my own, and planning to move the day after tomorrow. My roommate, on the other hand, is playing “the reasonable one” who has never openly resisted my current landlord, and is staying on in the house. I don’t know under what terms. I don’t want to know.
Why does having asserted my boundaries leave this weird residue? I guess it’s kind of like when you leave an AC and you know he’s got another woman in the wings just waiting to rush in there and take your place. It’s easy to feel like, oh, she must be more reasonable than me; see, he’s not such a jerk to her because she doesn’t get her back up like I do.
I am fairly sure that my roommate has played off my resistance to come out like the “laid-back guy” to my “uptight bitch.” He has even said to me that it’s the way my personality clashes with the LL’s that is part of the problem. I’m like, yeah, a personality that says, no, wait, she can’t say she’s going to pay for utilities then decide she won’t. He makes it sound like I’m not accommodating, when I’m the personality that found this place, negotiated the deal, renegotiated the deal, and then re-renegotiated the deal against what I felt was completely right for me because I felt responsible to “us” – i.e. him.
I am working hard to tell myself I have acted well here, and haven’t been “wrong.” Sometimes it’s challenging to validate oneself! Especially when I DO worry about what my roommate (another instructor at the university) is going to say / look like to our colleagues when he is the one who is “cool” and I am the one with “the problem.”
I just so look forward to being in my own place and away from this headache. But feeling a bit like the kid who “doesn’t play well with others.”
Fortunately, I guess, my current landlord is a prof at the university with a reputation for being nuts and for screwing people over. Too bad I didn’t get that information when I asked for it (I guess no one wanted to bad mouth her when I asked for references).
But I have to not worry what people think. Just take care of me, right? Interesting how it can feel “safer” to not take care of one’s own interest when one doesn’t want to risk looking weak in front of others.
mags-
if i may, i see two things:
1- your roommate is taking the (perhaps very convenient) tack of being more slippery and seemingly malleable and somehow (we assume) getting what he wants/needs. notice he hasn’t shared what he wants/needs/achieved, so you’re left to, if you care to think about it, wonder. he always manages to keep some kind of ace up his sleeve, whereas you feel “forced” to dwell in authenticity. you felt screwed over, therefore you straight up stand up to your landlady. but because his take is more fluid (aka, manipulative?) and he gets to look like the reasonable one, you feel bad about having stood up for yourself. don’t! remember, he is adept at finding non-confrontational ways to serve his own needs, at letting blame naturally fall elsewhere – don’t absorb the blame, and try to see how you’re translating this into condemnation of you. you don’t have to be like him, he’s playing all cool and collected and allowing the situation to play into his hands, which is a good skill if you can get it, but it doesn’t make him “better”. and, no, btw, he didn’t feel a responsibility toward you, to maintaining solidarity with you. and, no, he didn’t give you as good as you were trying to get for him. so don’t admire him too much – he’s kind of selfish. bear in mind however, that he’s not under any obligation to be anything else, just as you were under no obligation to try to help him – that was (gently said) a choice you made.
2- i want this to come off the right way… even while you should feel justified in the situation (you were screwed over, you took action, brava for you) and while roommate is not a bad guy he is definitely a somewhat slippery, self-serving one, there is still more than one way to skin a cat. try to look more objectively, non-judgmentally, at the situation, and see what you can learn from it. your information about it is imperfect, and he keeps it that way on purpose, that’s part of his genius, to be elusive while accomplishing his objective. but there is constructive feedback here that might be of use to you if you let it. try to figure out, in a balanced, constructive way, what that feedback is. i can tell you it is *NOT* some awful “magnolia is a crazy, hystrionic, over-reactor” bullshit – that is annihilating, and i don’t want you to feel that way at ALL. its probably more like “magnolia could use to be 1% more wily and see how the land lies before making her move, so she can make a move that will ultimately serve her (not anyone else) better”.
you already know there is a lesson here, but the lesson is NOT one of judgment, condemnation and annihilation. its a tweak, mags, a TWEAK. we ALL need to be open to constructive feedback, but we need to do it while empathizing with ourselves. and we always worry what people think, but we forget that they may be unqualified, biased judges. don’t accept judgments. just look for feedback.
Mags,
I’d say just do what’s good for you and let everyone else do what’s good for them. You don’t owe anyone an explanation and do try not to second guess what other people are thinking of your decisions (if they are not happy with them, that’s their problem, and, whatever they think is probably not about you but about themselves). They are your decisions made for you by you for reasons that you think are right; let that be enough for you – have confidence in your own choices. I have a feeling you’ll be much happier in your own place without a “roomie” anyway. Good luck!
Thanks cc and Fearless: I’m writing in haste on my way to work, but such a tweak, cc, seems like a real puzzle! I think my lesson is that I should have stayed firm and walked away from the whole deal the first time she “needed” to up the rent.
I’ll think about it over the day – maybe I’m not getting you – but I’m like – *more wily*? At what point?
Don’t worry, I don’t admire him.
And I woke up this morning still feeling all kinds of things, but nonetheless lighter than I have in the past six weeks, knowing I’m not stuck in this situation!
Teachable, I too have often been the one who gets burned for bluntly saying what she thinks. Holding my tongue always felt like some kind of self-betrayal. It took a while to see how staying silent could serve me, but I still don’t like to do so to give the impression of compliance when I’m secretly doing/thinking something else. Also, the silence of stalling, and waiting to respond, which I’ve had to practice in this situation, feels somehow dishonest, but I suppose one could see it as tactical.
I now repeat the saying: “Never miss a perfect opportunity to say nothing.” I also like NML’s pin, “You don’t have to attend every argument you’re invited to.”
Magnolia,
It sounds like you’ve already analyzed this to death. A bad landlord is the worst, try focusing on how great it is that you’re out of that situation and no longer have to deal with the stress! I think a lesson here is, as you’ve said, to follow your instincts. Something didn’t seem right about this woman from the beginning, in the future when you recognize this feeling in a situation, you’ll be more prepared to walk away.
And I wouldn’t spend any time wondering what people will think about you. Honestly, I doubt anyone will care. You moved out of a rental situation that wasn’t working for you. So? I don’t see how that reflects badly on you at all.
Magnolia
I’m with A on this. It’s inconvenient, she’s shady and possibly has some mental health issues, the other guy is just looking out for himself, not in the best way, but he’s free to do as he wishes. These ppl dont even know you. Put anyone in that situation and it’s going to be difficult. I go a bit further, never miss the perfect opportunity to think nothing.
I used to get really upset and anxious by all sorts of shite but now I’ve trained my mind not to go there. And i’m learning
from the man. He doesnt do anxiety or overthinking or indulge mine. When I was stressed about some conflicting commitments he just said, do what you want. When I wonder if I’m not doing right by my parents, yes those crappy ones, he says I’m doing a good job. when I was worried about a meeting at work, he sAid I know how to handle it. He was right on all counts.
And no he’s not dumb or unemotional. He’s the smartest kindest person ive dated.
Anxiety, for that is what I think it is, is not a core part of your personality and you can learn to overcome it. Now don’t get anxious about being anxious! Do the practical stuff, find somewhere nice to live, put it behind you.
I finally bought my own flat because I couldn’t stand dealing with landlords any longer. It happens to the best of us, even me, ha!
I’m going to add my two cents here because Magnolia’s situation exemplifies this post perfectly.
First off, thank goodness you’re moving and well done for handling your situation – notice I said *your situation*.
Your situation is not this man’s situation and although you lived in the same place, you were not in this situation *together*. If he wants to be passive and passive aggressive, that is his prerogative. If you were friends who had come into this arrangement together you could invest brainpower into this but you didn’t even know this man 6 weeks ago. You still don’t. You’re not the Two Rental Muskateers.
What he has done or not done has got jack all to do with you and it doesn’t make what you’ve done any less valid. You are inadvertently looking for approval and judging the validity of your feelings and actions against a strangers. That doesn’t make sense.
And here’s the kicker – what does him not doing the same as you *really* mean? What it means is that he’s still living in a place where the landlord is a douche that keeps changing the terms and conditions. If he wants to stay there and get bent over for more and more rent, let him! Yeah he might look less ‘confrontational’ than you but I’d take confrontational over mugged off any day. Who cares what he or she thinks? You think this is the *first* time she’s been in this situation? Er, NO.
You think he’s having a dandy life playing the passive and letting other people do his dirty work? Er, NO.
You needed to address this situation irrespective of whether he was there or not. He was taking care of himself (passively) – I suggest you take care of you. Topline data – you’re out of the situation. What’s not to like? Focus your mind on being grateful for acting on your behalf and on appreciating a new beginning.
mags-
…ok, now i feel like i gave you bad advice and was over-analyzing.
just to clarify – what i was trying (poorly) to say was – i know that no one here will be surprised at the revelation that i tend to beat myself up over stuff. and often, for me, after the dust settles after something happens, i look back and realize that i was 100% justified in my point of view, and handled 99% of it well, yet wish that i had done 1% differently. and its the 1% over which i’ll beat myself bloody.
but if i look at that 1% without judgment, i realize – oh, ok. that’s my lesson, that’s my takeaway, that’s my tweak for the future. and once i learn the 1% lesson and don’t have to berate myself for the 99%.
so, ALL i was saying was, if something is still niggling away at you, look for the 1% lesson, *if its even there at all*. but realize you were entirely justified in your point of view and in standing up for yourself. and don’t let your slippery former roommate invalidate you, even in your own head.
Natalie: “Topline data – you’re out of the situation. What’s not to like? Focus your mind on being grateful for acting on your behalf and on appreciating a new beginning.”
Wow, these words you wrote to Magnolia apply to so many of our situations. We are OUT of our situations. What’s not to like indeed? Amen!
” I go a bit further, never miss the perfect opportunity to think nothing.”
This is pinterest worthy
Magnolia – Your story here makes me think of the problems Nat had with her wedding dress designer. She had to stand up for herself after thinking everything was all worked out. Some of her thoughts in that post, I think, would validate you and prove to be empowering.
Good luck and congratulations on getting your own place. Sometimes we have to walk a crooked road to get where we need to go. You had a rough start but will wind up happy where you land, I believe.
Magnolia, I had somewhat of a same situation where I was planning to move in together with a friend and our ‘test’ phase went totaly wrong due to her disrespectful and decietful behaviour while all the while she wasn’t saying anything, she just let these things happen and did not talk about it nor did she put any effort for a conversation afterwards. I broke our new rental contract we had because of these reasons. Now I find myself with mutual friends who have ignored, neglected and ridiculed my choice and have hardly reached out to me at all since this happened two months ago, I have heard that I was ‘difficult’ and shouldn’t have been so hard on her. I still can’t comprehend how people would expect somebody to live with a cheat and the queen of passive agressiveness and how that would make me ‘difficult’. Needless to say, that after having put some effort to keep contact with some of these ‘friends’ I flushed them. (and for the first time in my life, I feel good and without guilt about that because I’m starting to have faith in myself and my believes).
A great NML article to read again in this kind of situation is
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/whats-your-relationship-deal-breaker/
and
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/more-on-deal-breakers-knowing-what-will-break-your-relationship-deal-even-when-youre-crazy-about-them/
deal breakers are dealbreakers, no matter with who you have gotten yourself into. I’m rereading a lot of NML’s articles concerning these so called friendships because those too can be real AC’s and downers in our lives.
Sofie,
It sounds like you saved yourself from a world of hurt. Good on you for running out of the building when you heard the alarm bells clanging. Your mutual friends might run out later, after actually SEEING the fire (being that the doofs didn’t heed the bells). But if they don’t, then they don’t. Unfortunately, not everyone makes it out of the building. Their choice.
Magnolia, the only thing I can add is, now you wont be there, your ex-roommate will have to handle crazy landlord-lady all by himself. And he will not like that. So sooner or later they will clash.
And by that time, you will be living happily ever after in some nice place, far away from the stress.
So chill and enjoy!
Hey this is a reply to all who commented on the roommate situation. Btw Magnolia, I salut you for taking care of yourself; don’t bother getting upset about him, this is about you.
I could not help but notice that people seem to be in two camps; those who say “Great you are shot of a bad situation”, and those who say that, but also, “He is a jerk” etc and judge the guy. Look I have to be honest; I don’t think that he is that horrible, He is just a person handling it in a manner that many people would.To play Devil’s Advocate, do we really know his situation? Maybe he is afraid to assert himself, so he plays it “cool”. Maybe he has no money to move and so is making the best of a crap situation. Maybe, since he works with this woman, he is not wanting to rock the boat. The bottom line is that expecting others to show “solidarity” with you is not always fair to them. He might have good reason to choose his own way and it could very well be hidden.
My brother and I are at odds right now about something like this. My dad is demented and living with a hoarder. Her kids, and I, want an intervention. It is a dangerous home situation. This makes his wife and him ( my dad) angry. My brother is letting me be the fall guy. Although I am pissed off, it is not really my problem. If my dad fell and broke his hip on the piles on junk in the house that are literally suffocating him and I had done nothing, I would feel horrible ( free admission, this is more about guilt than anything else because I have a very small amount of caring for my dad right now) My brother would probably be a-ok with it all and feel no guilt.
He ( my brother) has been this way all his life. He would let me take the fall for him, all his life. I remember intervening once, for him, as a child, to get abuse directed at me, and later, he never ‘returned the favor”. This selfishness is not new. Me getting upset, about this now, is just choosing to get upset about his character. It is not going to change and me getting angry won’t do anything positive for me.
I would not handle it that way, but it is his choice to. I don’t have to like or respect his choices. I just have to get behind mine. One thing that I can say for him, is he would not be burning up brain-power to change my choices or expect me to back him up. At least he is not a hypocrite. This guy, if he was wanting to move, would probably not get mad at Magnolia for staying.
dancingqueen-
i agree that we don’t know mag’s former roommate’s situation. i agree he doesn’t owe anyone solidarity. but the reason i for one thought him slippery was that he never once, that we know of (i think), empathized with magnolia. he never said, “look, man, i understand, but i need to handle it my own way.” he always danced away from the issue, gently but more or less flat out criticizing her.
that, to me, bespeaks the kind of selfishness i have witnessed in my own life and the kind you describe with your brother. i realize i am judging him. but…ok, i’m judging him. its not his job to catch blame. but its very interesting and informative that he’s so good at dodging it.
…sorry about your dad, by the way…
aw thanks CC you are sweet, my dad, well, he is what he is:)
And my bro, he is my bro; I will say he has some good qualities, like- surprisingly- being a fantastic and very emotionally available dad lol.
Yeah that sucks that M’s roommate did not empathize, did not think about that so good point. Although to be honest ( this is going to sounds so lame ha:) )..he is a guy and I swear sometimes I think that they just don’t get the empathy thing as well as women. Most women are great at saying “Look this works for me but I totally get why it is not working for you and I am sorry that you are upset” Guys are really good at the dancing part lol. see my post to you below further!
Revolution:
exactly. I can see that very clearly now. It’s a choice. They are choosing not to consider my feelings and my side of the story and not even showing at least a bit of courtesy to inform about my well being. For all they know I could be hanging off a cliff right now, or not. But it’s also a choice of mine to either stress about their behaviour or to draw conclusions from it and move on. And surround myself with positive people who don’t put me down, or put labels on me that have to work as an excuse for their bad behaviour. If the shoe don’t fit, don’t hurt yourself trying to put it on.
Sofie,
Amen, sister.
Thank you for sharing your story Magnolia; I soooooooooo feel you on this one as I plan to take action to leave my new job after trying to “work things out” with my employer.
I applaud your ability to take action in the mist of dealing with some difficult emotions.
Yes, I agree: It can sometimes be challenging to validate oneself; for, for me, it is a new behavior, a new skill if you like, and when I am unsure of myself, I tend to seek approval from others. I think I do this because I want them to assure me that I am doing the ‘right’ thing and NOT the ‘wrong’ thing, and this assurance makes me feel more confident in my decisions. In some cases, it is as if I am asking for their permission, and I’m waiting for them to give it to me before I make a move.
Maybe I don’t want to take responsibility for my own decisions, or it’s back to a lack of confidence, etc. Or, I’m trying to “protect the outcome.” I dunno. I don’t like making mistakes, maybe that’s it.
All I know is that I’m going to take action to find another job, so thank you for the inspiration, and congratulations on moving forward. 🙂
Perfect timing! At times, the simplest of comments or action from someone can make me feel bad about myself. The over empathising and inability to ‘let people down’ or say no because I didn’t want to appear mean/selfish caused me so much heartache in the end. Thank you for reminding me.
Hi Natalie and Ladies ?
It’s been a while since I’ve posted a comment, so I thought I’d share this with you. Six months ago I sat reading through countless articles on your website, trying you get through what felt like one of the weakest moments in my life. After having ended a 3 ½ year relationshit, my self-esteem and confidence seized to exist, yet I was so determined to find a way to stop feeling so sad and hurt all the time. I kept looking for answers and solutions to end this power struggle within myself and when I began reading your articles and the comments below, I realised that I wasn’t the only one and I found comfort in this, knowing I wasn’t alone. Many of your posts, followed by the comments from readers helped me in a way you cannot imagine. Slowly but surely I built up my self-esteem and confidence again and spent time focusing on myself and suddenly something within me changed; I stopped hoping, longing and expecting things to be a certain way, I also realised that If I wanted to be happy it had to come from within and I had to let go of whatever negative feelings I had held onto for so long. Today, I can say that even although it wasn’t a pleasant experience to have gone through, I am glad it happened because it made me stronger than I ever thought I could be. When I think about the relationship I had, I know for sure that I don’t ever want to go back there again. My eyes are wide open and I saw the forest for the trees and boy oh boy am I glad I am not in a relationship with someone like that anymore. I feel happier than I ever was in that relationship and it’s a great feeling knowing that I feel ok on my own. It really does get better and my life has changed so much! Nobody asks for their life to change it just does and it’s what you do afterwards that counts! That’s when you find out who you really are. I also learnt that waiting for someone else to make you happy is the surest way to be sad. Consider how hard it is to change yourself and you’ll understand what little chance you have in trying to change others. Don’t give up; the beginning is always the hardest. Thank you NML and all you beautiful ladies for helping me get through this ?
i meant 🙂 not ?
rock on, LGO! yes, :)!
I’m hearing you Magnolia. I’ve had a situation I needed to extricate myself from at the risk of looking like ‘the difficult party who doesn’t play well with others’. I extricated myself nonetheless though, for the sake of my sanity! Moreover, I wrote a long letter to the third party explaining WHY. I hummed & hawwed about sending the letter, fearing it might reflect badly on me but in the end, decided, no, I am NOT in the wrong here, & have a RIGHT to let the third party know what has occurred. So I did. Afterward, I second guessed myself, again wondering, had I been unwise to have sent the letter, in light of the fact that depite extraordinarily difficult circumstances, I’d managed bring a project to completion to a ‘very impressive’ standard, in the third party’s view. Again, I ultimately decided no. My fear, of course, was that as the one who raised the lid on the under swell of numerous difficulties with the project thanks to my co~contributer, *I* would look like the difficult one, as the person responsible for all the stuff upss, (which I then I had to fix), has remained, dead quiet. But you know what? What the third party thinks of me for letting her know the facts of the bloody saga I had to go through behind the scenes, to get her such a high standard result, is none of my business. All that matters is that she knows who f*cked up (repeatedly), & who fixed the f* ups & did the work, so I can walk away knowing she’s got important info straight, & move on!
Seriously, so many here has commented about this same experience – “does natalie hear what we’re thinking and talking about” 🙂
I’m going through the motions of a nasty break up and for the last few days I was torturing myself about “what way people were going to react? – am I going to come off looking like I didn’t try hard enough? – are they going to think I’m a b*tch for leaving because there were kids involved? (his kids) I delved heavily into the “get out of stuck” and was going through my beliefs with some shock horror revelations about myself and how much negativity I carried around.
I then thought, so what, this man never sorted out the ex wife baggage and his family baggage, his family treated me awful before they even met me, they spread rumours and would snigger and point when they saw me and he never stood up for me or himself (I can’t even begin to explain how warped these people are) I know looking back now when the dust has settled a bit that I was so blinded and naive thinking he’d come around.
We broke up the start of July after three years together, talked for a few weeks in August about seeing if there was anything salvagable but his behaviour of hot and cold towards me was ten times worse then it ever was – He exploded at me for ALMOST accidently standing on his phone that was in the pocket on the jeans on the floor.
I was suppose to meet him at “our” now his house for a chat a few days after that episode, plus an extra few episodes like that one in there all happening over the phone, but I texted him saying he won’t be seeing me ever again and not to contact me anymore. I initially felt crap for sending a break up text but then thought, he has treated me so damn bad and I let that happen so I’m not going to put myself into a situation where It will only make matters worse – again.
I’m hoping this is a good sign that I’m not going to worry anymore about how I’ll be percieved for doing things that act in my best interest. I did that far too much.
Funny, I wonder does he think about himself in that context. When we broke up he left me with no phone and no money at the side of the road and two and a half hours away from my mams house. I shudder at what I put up with, never again thanks to Natalie and BR for helping me see the light.
I have Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl ordered and on it’s way 🙂
PS Cc is right about yr sitch too Magnolia. One thing I’ve noticed, with me in a wok context, are some very manipulative peeps who will sit back, secretly WANTING an issue addressed or spoken up about, but whom would DELIBERATELY leave it ME to do the SPEAKING UP! Why? THEY didn’t want the loss of brownie point’s from THEIR quota & KNOWING my direct & AESSERTIVE manner, would rather they be taken from mine instead! I soon learned to recognise this for the extreme cowardice that it is. Certainly, I have no respect for such types. Not sure if that flatmate is the type but he sounds rather like it so, no, this is not about you!
“THEY didn’t want the loss of brownie point’s from THEIR quota”
Teachable no true’er words have ever been spoken. I’ve always been the outspoken and assertive one but have thankfully learned this lesson years ago. I was in a sales meeting where the boss was giving some new rules that would make our paychecks shrink. Everyone turned around and looked at me like ‘aren’t you going to say anything’ because of course we were all thinking the same thing but why should they lose any ‘brownie points’. But I just kept my mouth shut. I wasnt concerned that time because I had seen this coming and already had another job lined up. All I wanted to say was ‘Goodbye Suckers’. I went on to make 20k more the next year at the new company. HA!
*work context I meant. you won’t find me anywhere near a wok. I HATE cooking! LOL
Thank you for this, Natalie. For such a scrapper, I am actually very, very susceptible to this way of thinking. Like with my last pseudo-relationship with the EUM/AC, where he did the “I don’t want a relationship” for months and months, and then took a run and jump into one. With another woman, of course. And the kicker here is that I fought tooth and nail with myself to PROVE that I was right about why I wasn’t “good enough” for men. I’d make broad, sweeping statements in my mind: “He wants a younger woman.” “I’m not attractive enough.” Yada yada yada. Cut to the guy dating a woman at least 10 years older than me (I’m 35, he’s 43, she’s late forties) and (said gently) not as fortunate looking as I am. BUT, my brain tossed and tossed to find the PROOF of WHY I wasn’t as GOOD as her. And do you know what my (usually intelligent, though at these times feeble)brain came up with? She’s thinner than me. THAT’S why she was “crowned” with this relationship and I wasn’t. WTF??? Yeesh. Proof that an otherwise intelligent woman can “lose the plot” as you Brits say. I’m laughing at myself here. Ladies, don’t we work so hard sometimes to make it “all about us”?
Saying no has never been easy for me to do. However, I did say no to continuing a relationship with a FF/EUM who was still in love with his ex-girlfriend who did not give a rats ass about him.
Well, I just learned that 3 months ago he married a woman whom he met online after only knowing her for 10 months! My first thought was: ‘Wow! What was wrong with me that he did not see a future with me?’ My next thought was: ‘It’s not fair that karma did not come back to teach him a lesson after the heartbreak that he caused. How could he find love and happiness so quickly, yet I am still searching?’ To add insult to injury, he took my idea of us getting married in a castle in hie native Ireland, and married her in a castle in his native Belfast! Grrr!
Then it occurred to me ( after re-reading Nat’s previous posts on this topic) what he does has nothing to do with me. I am a wonderful person, but I just wasn’t the one for him. I also realize that I have a lot of work to do on myself—learning to accept and be comfortable with the possibility that I may end up growing old alone, and developing a higher self-esteem and self-confidence—so that I can increase my chances of attracting a quality man.
So, instead of being jealous of my ex, I choose to wish him and his new wife all the love, joy, and happiness in the world. Lifting my imaginary champagne glass in the air to toast their new life together.
goodness, gina….and, revolution, too…
good for you. remarkably evolved.
Ha! Thank you, cc. Some days are better than others, I assure you. I’ve had my share of “aluminum-chair throwing” levels of drama (referencing Jerry Springer here).
Gina,
Never forget; he was not the one for YOU either;)
LIFEGOESON,
Everything that you wrote really resonnnated with me. Thank you SO much for sharing!!
Cc,
It isn’t easy. I am still a work in progress, so I do have my moments. Thanks to Nat I am getting better.
To be honest, wishing him well is not for him; it’s for myself. You see, I want good karma to come back to me a hundredfold.
gina-
i understand. and on that note…
the past week has been a terrible struggle, with the ex-EUM haunting my thoughts. i’m so sick of it…but maybe not sick enough for it to stop.
so i reread this:
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/be-thankful-that-they-didnt-show-up-and-other-things-to-be-thankful-for/
it helped. it really did.
Cc
Thankyou for reminding me of that post. It is beautiful. My favourite. The bottom line is, we should remember that there is all of life out there for all of us, why bother at all about someone who isn’t bothering about us?
Cc,
I’ve had a similar week, complete with a return of haunted thoughts. I’m sick of it too, I want to yell at myself, “ENOUGH ALREADY!” Thanks for suggesting a reread of the post you linked. It helped me as well.
Hi cc, sorry the ex is haunting your thoughts this week. Sometimes when the ex pops back into my head, I just ride it out. It’s just a thought, and for me, a fantasy! Thanks for posting the thankful link. And thank you for your thoughtful comments. I learn a lot from you. Hang in there girl. His crummy behavior has nothing to do with you.
aw, guys-
thanks, i appreciate it, i truly do. …i seem to go through these ebbs and flows with it, its as if … as if i imprinted on him like a goddamn twilight werewolf and i can’t seem to peel him out of me. its as if he’s welded into the place where a partner is supposed to be, and unless i put someone else in there, i can’t get him out.
the person i have to put in there instead of him is ME, which is exactly what i’ve been trying to do – i’ve come SO far with that, i have continually invested in me, like i’m always saying to everyone else, its not as if i’m not doing this work myself, i AM. i’ve worked HARD, on myself, and have for an eternity. and i’ve made significant progress, i keep getting feedback from the people in my life at how amazed they are at who i’ve become.
i just wish i’d arrive at the point at which …. i just wish it would fucking pay off already in a way that allows me to really let go of him. because i’m so sick of feeling this way. i just want to be happy and calm and not miss him. and i am happier, i am calmer, all that stuff i spout about self comfort and self love is absolutely TRUE – i just can’t get the jerk out of me.
and really, what’s to miss? even though he tried really hard, the best he could manage was treating me like crap and making me feel rejected and bad about myself. so wtf??? WHY would i want someone like that?
…i probably don’t. i think i just feel its not fair that it appears that even HE, the EU selfish spock jerk, who took so much from me, has found someone (i know i shouldn’t care, but i do) when i’ve worked on myself SO hard and have changed SO much, he gets to stay his shitty self and find someone. and its not fair. its just not fair.
so, i guess partly i’m having a childish tantrum and partly…
ok, HERE’S THE POINT (yes, i actually have one) – all the stuff natalie writes about: boundaries, self-esteem, over-giving, over-investing, trust yourself, adjust your trust levels according to the feedback you get – i’m a living, walking example of that. ok – group vomit – but women are amazing, sensitive creatures, and we can DEVastate ourselves when we violate the above principles. look at me – the relationship was only 4 1/2 months, the guy was faithful to me, and STILL, because i over-gave to an EUM, ignored red flags, bulldozed my boundaries, and INcreased my level of trust and investment on the basis of VERY poor feedback, MONTHS later i’m still WRECKED. …ok, not wrecked, but he shouldn’t even be in my head anymore and he IS. based on HIS behavior, the relationshit never should have happened at ALL, and…guys, its *9 months later* and look at me….
value your precious selves. please. do not spend yourselves on some unworthy guy, no matter how cute he is, how much potential you see, how much you want a partner. don’t let this happen to you…again…
smooches
Hey cc, I love your honesty and your strength. What you’ve written is exactly how I’m feeling today, its ebbing and flowing, I want him out of my head too and as natural as it is to feel a little jaded from time to time, I would love an off button. WE will all get peace and calm.
Sometimes what brings me back is thinking, where would I be if I didn’t find this life saving website? I’m actually frightened of answering that.
Natalies posts and reading all of your amazing stories has saved my sanity and the comfort of knowing I am not alone is such a huge relief. Okay “sisters are doing it for themselves” just popped into my head, I must give it a listen me thinks!!!
Me too, on the ebbs and flows, cc. Your comment brought tears to my eyes *wipes tears away brusquely, straightens leather jacket*. Ahem.
Anyway, I can very much relate to feeling the injustice of it all, when our exes (especially those who treated us less than) move on with the next girl, and we’re left, seemingly, in the dust. However, what helps me is to keep in mind that the reason that it seems SO EASY for them to move on is because IT DOESN’T MATTER TO THEM. It’s not like they’re getting some great, Shakespearean love that will withstand the tests of time. They’re, essentially, heading to Walmart (Tesco for you, maybe) and picking up a can of green beans. That’s it. That’s about how much forethought, planning, and self-knowledge they have with relationships. Could you head to Walmart or Tesco to get a can of green beans? Absofrickinlutely! But you can’t be bothered. You’d rather wait, save up your money, make a list, and then head to an expensive Whole Foods store to get a whole CARTFUL of healthy, organic groceries! So don’t feel too bad, love. ‘Cause you’ll feel better by morning from all of those lush, green vegetables, after you finally get ready for that shopping spree. And all his ass will have is mercury poisoning.
cc, Your posts are amazing, full of compassion and have quite often made me laugh out loud. Last week you posted a message ‘forbidding’ me to contact the exMM and even though I was in emotional turmoil it made me giggle. In the midst of all that pain I actually laughed! I can’t offer you much because I’m still an emotional basket case, except – keep going you really are a wonderful, caring human being. His Loss.
“i just wish i’d arrive at the point at which …. i just wish it would fucking pay off already in a way that allows me to really let go of him. because i’m so sick of feeling this way. i just want to be happy and calm and not miss him. and i am happier, i am calmer, all that stuff i spout about self comfort and self love is absolutely TRUE – i just can’t get the jerk out of me.”
I totally validate you Cc and it will get better, I hate to say it but it just takes time.
One day you will wake up and literally not think about him for hours, and suddenly when you do, it will not pang, it will just be like “oh that loser”. I remember having bad ac dreams for months after my epiphany relationship and just being so mad that I could not get that dude out of my head! But now he is out!
Just let us know, if a few months, when you have that moment of “poor loser” thought on here, and we can celebrate.
Now go get back in your super-duper genie bottle. ( love that image!)
smooches, dancingqueen, thank you! i’ve actually spent the day in the bottle.
and…ok. when that “poor loser” moment happens, i’ll let you know.
Gina, please don’t torture yourself thinking that he’s so happy. For all you know, maybe he’s feeling that he’s made a big mistake. The answer to that, you don’t get to know, and why should you care? Don’t judge by outward appearances. There may be a lot more to the story that you don’t know now, and will never know because you are not them. There’s no doubt a good reason why he didn’t choose you. But, that’s his choice, problem, whatever. Concentrate on YOU.
Tinkerbell,
I love you girl! Thanks for putting things into the proper perspective! I did notice that it was strange that not only did he not have any pics of his new wife/family on FB (I found out he was married by looking at her page–which is what I get for unblocking his FB access and snooping-curiosity killed the cat). His dating profile is hidden, but has not been removed!
Holding head in shame…
After coming to my senses and realizing that I should have continued to mind my OWN business and focus on ME, I re-blocked him and am now getting back on track.
Cc,
THANK YOU SO MUCH!!! Reading that link is JUST what I needed!
I KNOW all about the haunting thoughts about the ex-EUM! Girl, it’s normal!! Just let grief do it’s job. It will take time but you WILL get through this experience stronger and wiser. What helped me was doing things and being around people who made me feel good about myself.
That’s what we are here for girl. Come here to cry, share, vent, and blow off steam. We love you and will be your rock. Lean on us as much as you need for strength and support.
This also applies to everyone else who comes to this blog in need of love and support.
HUGS!!!!!
Gina,
I know this comment was meant for cc mainly, but I just wanted to say: what a beautiful sentiment. Thank you! Hugs to you (and to all the fabulous women on here)!!! It is sentiments like these which remind me that these men (dare I call them that?) pick the highest caliber of women to try their tricks on. Good thing we cotton onto them, and leave them in the mire (looking at the stars, hopefully). We can pray that they change, and pray sincerely, but that doesn’t mean that we have to stick around for the abuse until, and IF, they decide to do so!
gina-
i’m very glad it helped. and thank you for the solidarity, honey, i really needed it right now. had it not been for you, i wouldn’t have been able to vent my little diatribe above, but i really needed to get it, and figure it, out.
i love you and all my BR bunny rabbits too. thank you so much.
massive, massive hugs back,
cc
You’re very welcome Gina. I’ve only recently started posting regularly, not just to vent but to share what I’ve learned. We are all at different stages of our emotional growth and developement of self love, care trust and respect. Thank God we have this blog to come to and get help from not only Natalie, but from each other. I’ve found that it’s therapeutic and works both ways and for us all. Be strong, Honey.
I think that this website is curing me of that it-is-all-about-me thing. I still have the proclivity, but I have this new horrible coworker who is just a real piece of work and she is kind of bullying…before I would have made it all about me-what does she sense about me that makes her think that she can treat me this was? blah blah blah-but I already know that she has been this way with others and frankly, she is just a little b33ch with power issues. So am just being professional and calm and now that she can’t seem to get a rise out of me she seems to be moving on to another victim…poor them hope that they don’t take it personally;)
Oh yes. Very nice Magnolia. I only knew ‘choose your battle’s wisely’ but will add yrs & NML’s sayings too! I am definately one who, at times, would benefit tactically speaking, frm shutting her fat mouth! (A strength in some situations, but definately weakness in others, as you have all seen!) LOL
Revolution I’m cackin myself with you (because my, at times, self-obsessed ego relates!) LOL Yes, you are SO right. Other peeps behaviour is not about US. It’s amazing how much lighter we can tread through our daily lives when we realise this (although, I also think it’s human to move in & out of that awareness)! Top stuff!! 😉
Cc I admire you for wishing your ex well, even if it for fear of karma.
I EMAILED mine who died that I wished him well too in my last ever communication to him before going NC, but in truth I was seething at the time & just excercising damage control as I feared he may try to make trouble for me in a certain way, (unwarrented of course, he was very damaged at the end), & I hoped to minimise the possibility of this.
It worked. No trouble was made. He was mentioned in passing today just to inform ppl I han’t seen in a long time, who helped to support me through what went on back then, that he had died. I mentioned that he believing that I had forgiven him & felt nothing but compassion combined with a firm boundary that it was time for me to walk away. I’ve posted before that 6 mths later, the day before he died & then again on the actual day, he tried to contact me (not suicidal or anything. He had drug issues & said something about wanting to talk for ‘closure’). I already had my closure & knew it was only a ruse to get me to re-engage so ignored the emails.
And then he was gone. I think now he was probably reaching out for help to the only person in the world he knew still cared. And I did but it was too late by that stage.
I STILL have not grieved this death. The tears don’t come, only a little, at the start & that was it. Possibly b/c the r/shit was already over & I had indeed truely ‘let go’. You can’t really grieve what was already gone. But to you Cc, I say good for you. We never know what the future holds & my only comfort in what happened is that my ex went to his final resting place with my forgiveness, compassion & love. It may not have been ‘real’ when I wrote the words, but it definately is, now.
Disclaimer: I am not suggesting that anyone who has been abused ought feel such a way toward anyone who has been abusive, as that is a different topic area. x
teachable-
i can’t take credit for someone else’s achievement – it was gina who wished her ex well, not me. i wish my ex…(not printable here).
but i hear you about grief. it takes a LONG time. just give yourself the time and don’t block anything, and you will naturally process it. i wish you peace on that, and the patience and generosity with yourself to be gentle with you until it comes.
hugs
Wow, teachable. Your comment gave me pause.
“And then he was gone. I think now he was probably reaching out for help to the only person in the world he knew still cared. And I did but it was too late by that stage.”
Sank right in the middle of me. You sound like you have your head on straight, without delusions of blaming yourself, etc., so I won’t waste my time encouraging you not to feel guilty. It’s just such finality to No Contact really makes you think. We don’t do it because we are angry or trying to “show them” *fist in the air* or get them to come back *doe eyes*. We do it because, as you say, sometimes we need to let go in love because, well…..it isn’t working. And oftentimes the “not working” includes our being abused in some way. And that’s just not cool.
I’m sure yours wouldn’t have been the only hands reaching out to help him in his life, so he sounded like he had the choice to get help if he needed it, before and after you went NC with him.
Love does not exist without some kind of principled discipline, both of ourselves and of what type of behavior we allow from ourselves and others in our interactions. That is what love is, mixed in, of course, with tenderness and affection. I think deep down, no matter how damaged they are or what experiences they’ve had in life, these guys recognize this kind of healthy love when they see it. That doesn’t mean that it doesn’t scare the sh*t out of them, or that they are willing to accept the responsibilities that come with it. Nor does it mean that they reciprocate, or even know how to. But I think they recognize it enough to know who they can trust. Even when that person has told them to kiss off.
For whatever it’s worth, from a stranger probably across the pond who’s never met you and has only read your story, (lol), it sounds like he died with this knowledge of you.
I’ve been dealing with this exact same thing & from the outside looking in it is pretty cooky behavior!!!
My sister recently introduced me to her best friend (hoping all 3 of us ladies can hang out) & although she is a nice lady and fun to hang out with, when I talk to my sis after all 3 of us hanging out it always seems to be something:
I find out that she thinks I don’t like her because I didn’t laugh when she made a joke & because I made this facial expression I wasn’t interested in her conversation about her dog & because I tied my right shoe at 3:45 it means I hate her hairstylist (I’m exaggerating on the last one lol),
but it’s EXHAUSTING to hang out with somebody who constantly jumps to the worst conclusions about you.
I try to reassure her that I’m a laid back person & I don’t react in an over expressive way to ANYBODY’S anectdotes, It’s just my chill personality. But she STILL goes back to my sis with her insecurities about me:-/
I wonder what’s behind somebody constantly jumping to the absolute worst conclusions- is it fear, insecurities, maybe childhood traumas- I don’t know, I’m really trying to be understanding because we have to plan a baby shower together & because she’s my sisters best friend & she really is a good person.
Lord have mercy, these people. Oy. Beautifulsoul, you SOUND like a beautiful soul in that you want to be at peace with this chick. With people like this, I’ve found that nothing I do can regulate the Class 4 hurricane of insecurity that they have inside themselves about everything in their path. Have you ever seen the “Dog Whisperer”? Maybe you’ll laugh, but I really think that Cesear’s “calm, assertive” approach works especially well with people like this. The way it works is twofold: if she’s projecting her own feelings of dislike onto you, the “assertive” portion will back her up. If she likes you but is insecure as to whether or not she likes YOU, then the “calm” approach (done regularly) will show her a nice baseline personality that she may grow to trust. Either way, be yourself and don’t bend over backwards. It’s not you, it’s them. 🙂
Oops, should read: “if she’s insecure as to whether or not you like HER…”
Cc,
You are most welcome! Go ahead and vent girl!! That is part of the healing process! You are a loving, sensitive, and beautiful human being. Keep redirecting your focus away from the ex and back to you. Can I share the beautiful words that my recent passive aggressive ex-EUM gave me when he was in his hot phase? I quoted these same words back to him when he started showing his ass and I had to end it. Every time I start to feel bad about what went wrong, I find strength and comfort in these words and I want you to do the same:
“Promise me you’ll never settle for anything less than extraordinary….because that’s what you deserve. Promise you will always believe in yourself and the possibilities of each dream …because you can do anything. Promise you will never forget how far you’ve come…because it will help you remember how far you can go…and that you will always see yourself as others see you …because you are beautiful, inside and out”
haha that is a funny quote; did you tell him “You told me to promise you that I would never settle for anything less than extraordinaryy, and it seems that you are unfortunately, so I need to go”?;)
cc, everything you said resonated loudly with me. I am fed up with my obsessive ruminating and want the pay-off for all this self-work now, please. Therapists say the ruminating has nothing to do with him – it’s all to do with me. That doesn’t stop the thoughts, though, which are almost embarrassing after this much time has passed, and the facts have been laid out bare (that he was a certified AC). Sometimes I think it would have been easier to do what I usually do after a disastrous relationship – jump immediately into another one. But I know that behaviour wasn’t working for me, so I’ll stick with this gruelling job of facing down my own demons until I am where I want to be. It’s hard work, this self discovery stuff.
Hi everyone,
I’m really struggling today, feeling low and lonely – some wise words please?
I keep looking at this website and it all makes sense. I know that he wasn’t right for me and I wasn’t right for him but because I haven’t had any contact or conversation where he or I have said that we aren’t even seeing each other anymore( though obviously we aren’t because I’ve not seen him for 3 weeks now) it just feels so unfinished?
Is it just time I need, am I being impatient or do I need to actually have an “I don’t want to see you anymore” conversation before I can move on?
UkGirl, there’s a lot on BR about closure because it seems that a lack of it is the norm in these dysfunctional relationshits. To sum it up, closure is something you give yourself. Seeking it from someone who has already disappointed and disappeared is not a viable option.
I still feel like I’m waiting for the other shoe to drop every day because it’s bizarre to never speak to someone again after being intimate for several years. I finally got it, though, that he doesn’t deserve to ever hear my voice again or know my thoughts. I’ve given him enough ego strokes! It has been over 3 months NC for me and I still expect I will hear from him again someday but I now know there is nothing he can say that will change anything or give me “closure.”
UkGirl, sorry you are feeling lonely and down. I don’t have any wise words other than to lend you support. For me, 3 weeks NC was a drop in the bucket and it has been a long haul out of the bucket. Natalie has many posts about the “I don’t want to see you anymore” convo and she’s right. My “I don’t want to see you anymore” convos were actually stopping me from moving on. Instead of having that convo, have you considered writing the UNSENT letter? I found Natalie’s UNSENT letter guidelines exceptionally helpful and the exercise dredged up some unpacked childhood baggage that I was still hauling around. As Kerry (above) wisely points out: “…I’ll stick with this gruelling job of facing down my own demons until I am where I want to be. It’s hard work, this self discovery stuff”. It’s flipping hard. But it is much more difficult to get a relationship based on trust, respect, and love from a three-legged donkey. At some point, way, way after 3 weeks NC, I realized with the help of BR that in order to move on, I would have to stop flogging the three-legged donkey. He just wasn’t going to spontaneously combust into a race horse. AC’s start as they go…ambiguous. Hugs to you. There’s better and more options out there.
UKGirl, no answer is your answer. When my ex AC (six years ago) dumped me without explanation, I did embarrassed myself by calling/texting/visiting hom, I lost all pride and dignity…and it did NOT worth it. I would NEVER do the same mistake again. Since then I dropped two ACs and I never showed them that I CARE, even I felt awful:-(
My advice: I know it is very hard in the beginning, but please just disappear, let him wonder where you gone…Stay strong “sister”!
Thank you darlings for your support x
It is a new day here and I’m feeling much better so far.
I did write some “unsent” emails and that did help a bit as although I wrote how I felt at the time, they did read very differently a few days after, so was really glad I didn’t send them, saving some of my self respect for myself.
I live in a very small town, so there is no possability of complete no contact, as I will always “see him around” and at some point I will hear that he is seeing someone else.
I am just hoping at some point in the future, that if anyone asks me how I know him I will just be able to say that he is “just somebody that I used to know” (as in the song by Gotye)with no emotional pull on my heart strings!
Plan for today – keep busy and soldier on x
ukgirl-
i live in a huge city, and i think i make some unconscious assumption that people behave here how they do because they can just disappear back into the crowd and resume some anonymity, they don’t have to have their actions rubbed in their faces. so it always amazes me when someone on BR says they live in a small town and they can’t avoid an ex – don’t these people realize that perhaps they should behave better and not leave a mess to clean up? no, alas, i guess the prospect of having to meet your past walking down the street doesn’t embarrass them into greater thoughtfulness…
i’m sorry you were feeling this way and glad its somewhat better and that you didn’t send the unsent letters (this used to be my classic error….i won’t send it…hums…i can’t send it…hmmm…no, don’t send it!….(SEND). …oops….
mymble is right – i don’t know how long you were seeing him, but sometimes the conversation just makes us feel worse, even though we can’t imagine worse in any given moment. closure is tough to get at first, and anyone who behaves as he did is unable to have a mature, sensitive ending conversation.
yes, at that future point, if someone mentions his name, you’ll be able to shrug your shoulders and roll your eyes. for now, yes, keep going. you’ll get through it.
big hugs
cc – thank you, big hugs back to you
I am very grateful for everyone on here who has taken time to reply
I fear at the moment I am taking advise and not giving much back, but a little tip for you cc to avoid the (send) oops moment, is to either leave the address blank so it can’t go anywhere or address it to yourself so no harm done if you can’t help but press the send button
word Little Star; that is the best, just leave them to feel like they don’t matter enough for a response because they really don’t.
Ukgirl, I have so much wanted to have that ‘last conversation’ but know it would cause more harm than good. I compiled a list of quotes about the power of silence and if I’m tempted to send the ‘unsent letter (s)’ I read it. It helps and I haven’t had an ‘oops, too late’ moment yet. Hope it helps.
“Saying nothing……….sometimes says the most.” (Emily Dickinson)
“Silence is also speech”.
“Silence is the most perfect expression of scorn.” (George B. Shaw)
“You hesitate to stab me with a word, and know not – silence is the sharper sword.” (Samuel Johnson)
“Since long I’ve held silence a remedy for harm.” (Aeschylus)
“Silence is the most powerful scream.”
“The correction of silence is what kills; when you know you have transgressed, and your friend says nothing, and avoids your eye.” (Robert L. Stevenson)
“Strength is born in the deep silence of long-suffering hearts……..” (Arthur Helps)
“The deepest feeling always shows itself in silence; not in silence, but restraint.” (Marianne Moore)
“Everything becomes 100 times louder when you aren’t trying to wake someone…”.
“Quiet is peace. Tranquility. Quiet is turning down the volume knob on life. Silence is pushing the off button. Shutting it down. All of it.”
Lilly, Thank you – silence is a very powerful thing and so is this website
I find it amazing that while I’m asleep, you lovely people are trying to help me xxx
Love the silence quotes!
love them…must copy now:)
Lilly
Love your silence quotations. Am going to copy them all!
Uk girl
I had the goodbye conversation but I can tell you it didn’t help at all. You hope you will have some kind of discussion or that he will show emotion but nope. If they were AC in their behaviour to you during the relationship they sure as anything won’t step up at the end and behave like a decent human being. Mine was just shifty, evasive, emotionless, couldn’t wait to flee the crime scene.
He knew. I knew. He knew I knew. What FX said about cognitive dissonance is dead right, it took a long time to process that someone wiu whom I had at times felt so close and happy actually didn’t care for me at all. I still struggle with that but much less now. It isn’t so much that I have got the answers so much as that I am getting on with my life and don’t think about it so much any more or with the intensity or emotion that I did.
Mymble, thank you x
I think after all the advice on here I am done with the need for a goodbye conversation
I am hoping to be where you are at some point where I think less about it all and with less emotion
Uk girl – & fearless
You know what – having thought about this – we really did not have a goodbye conversation at all. We were both in a room, I said certain things, he muttered some evasive nonsense and that was it. there was no real conversation at all. To be honest I was EU too so frightened to let him see how I really felt, say what I really thought – because I knew deep down that he didn’t care anyway. He was hellbent on just ending the conversation and getting the hell out of dodge in case I got, yuck, emotional. So there was no meaningful communication at all, on
either side.
You can’t get blood out of a stone.
UK girl,
no, you don’t. you are allowed to move on with or without his agreement/approval/acknowledgement.
I had a ten year thing with the ex EUM. We stopped seeing each other about two years ago – if I was waiting to have any conversation about or even acknowledgement of the “relationship” being over, I’d still be waiting. We never discussed it at all. It just stopped. I found that very hard for a long time. But I accept it now as inevitable. He refused to discuss or acknowledge any issues when he was (not) in the relationship, so why would he have anything to say when it was, apparently, over? And that’s the point – they were never “in” it, so what’s to say about what, for them, never was in the first place? Nothing. So you get nothing. For them there isn’t anything to acknowledge once it’s over, cos the whole point for them all along was to create nothing, so nothing can never be over, cos it never started. (confused? I am!)
Fearless, Thank you x
you are right about the acknowledgement bit, he never really did acknowledge that we were much more than friends so why would he want to acknowledge that “it” (whatever “it” was) is over either
I suppose I will know it is over when I see him with someone else, but I want to be strong enough for me to feel it’s over regardless of whether he has moved on or not
UKGirl – I’m a recent comer to this website too, and already I’ve learned so much.
Know that if/when you do see or find out that he is with someone else, his problems are now her problems. He hasn’t changed. If he was an EU jerkface when he was with you, guess what? He’s still an EU jerkface — he will have only found ‘fresh meat’ who is apparently willing to volunteer to allow him further EU jerkface activity. She’ll have no idea what kind of ticket to hell she signed up for. Unless she herself is also EU, she’ll be sitting there actually starting to believe he feels something meaningful for her. Pity. Because you’ve been there, and you know the truth now. He won’t have changed. EUMs NEVER DO.
…wise women here!…I learned that ” how could I possibly believe a conversation of closure with the fast forwarding, future faking, wolf in sheepskin clothing, a/c, bring me any peace?…it certainly wasn’t there while I dated him…
&….silence is “doing something”
Thank you all for sharing…now if these men would acknowledge their pain…as we women do… just maybe they would begin to heal…somehow I don’t see it happening…
fearless-
no, actually, that’s exactly it! and i’m so glad you said it!
further, because it was nothing, and because they are compartmetalizers who must always see themselves as great, its easy for them to wrap us in blame, box us up for storage (or shredding) and move on.
oy!
Ladies, thank you. I look forward to sitting down and reading all your words (I’m about to box up the computer!). I picked up the keys to the new place and it is filled with light and lovely.
Further to the “dodgy conclusions” about me: I asked the LL to return my post-dated cheques. She’s refusing to return the Oct. cheque, but whatever, I’ll stop it.
She did include the following, though:
“Dear Magnolia, I am saddened by these events. I recall thinking that you didn’t like the art gallery, the departmental retreat, the place you grew up, and so on and so forth, and that you would probably eventually cast me in a negative light as well but other than that I did not see this coming. I did enjoy many of our conversations and hope you find things and people that make you happy.”
It is indeed *exactly* the worry that I am *too negative* and *unhappy* with perfectly good situations, and that message, that has kept me involved with ACs well past the sell-by date.
Somehow seeing her throw this at me – I get it. I have to have enough confidence to say: what.ev.er.lady. Even if I were the biggest pessimist on earth that doesn’t mean I should put up with shady behaviour.
Thanks again everyone and looking forward to reading through BR next from my new digs.
Enjoy your new place with peace and a smile on your face. You took initiative and did what you needed to do for you, thats awesome. Heck, have a glass of wine with that peaceful smile. clink!
Magnolia, trash the correspondence from the exLL. Telling somebody NO, doesn’t mean you are too negative or are pessimistic. For me, it is now about having boundaries. If those boundaries cause folks to go screaming into the night, so be it. What.ever.lady. is right. And what.ever.dude. who has decided to remain in that situation. His problem now, not yours. So happy you found a lovely new place filled with light and you have a new job in your field. I know it is easier to see things from the outside…you have so many incredible things going for you. You go girl! XXOO
Aw, Magnolia. That was a terribly manipulative passive agressive message. No wonder you got stressed out by this lady, she´s neurotic as hell. Just ignore her and put her out of your mind asap.
I´m so happy you fled that place, these (manipulative) people can make you doubt yourself to insanity! Pat yourself on the back that you got out of that situation and didn´t get all tangled up in her creepy web.
mags-
re: the LL’s letter to you. yes indeedy! as cartman from South Park would say, “dude. that’s some fucked up shit right there.”
holy crap. she’s out of her mind and a reflexive self-victimizer/underminer/blamer. …oh, yeah, and a total bitch.
thank god you’re out of there. how’s the new place? awesome i hope!
Mags, okay I said earlier that I did not think that you should judge him,but judging her is fine; super dodgy, what a b88ch and you are so lucky to get out now; enjoy your new place!!!
you guys!
…sisters doing it themselves…mercury poisoning!!…giggling through turmoil…facing down the demons…promise me you’ll never settle (from an AC no less, how prophetic)…
thanks again for the love and support and appreciation. thanks for helping me see i’m not nuts and not alone. thanks for thinking me strong when i’m convinced i’m the weakest weakling. and thanks for sharing all your incredible, inspiring, amazing strength with me.
go BR! NATALIE! look at your community! its GORGEOUS. you lil goddess, you.
cc,
You are not nuts, and you are definitely not alone! Your comments to me and to others are truly gifts. Your strength and compassion are outstanding! Knowing that you also have difficult times with AC/EUM memories gives me hope that we can *all* develop the strength and insight you possess, even though we may not be absolutely over our EUM’s (i.e., they may still occupy more of our brains than they deserve to – mine sure does!). I am also sorry that you have had a tough week, but just wanted you to know that I consider you one of my “role models” on BR. Hugs to you cc! xxoo
oh, learner. i’m humbled and … sobbing! jeez, its a wet day in the bottle. thanks, love.
Ditto to that re cc’s astuteness and compassion and strength!
Dear Natalie, thank you again for this wonderful article. I dropped my bestfriend two months ago, as I was fed up with her “put downs” and finally I went NC with her. Her birthday is next week, I do not know if I should contact her or not? I do not want to be her friend anymore, but I am a Godmother to her child?! I also NC with AC, and it is getting easy day by day. My next challenge is my work colleagues, I have to learn to say “NO” to them too…I just fed up to be “too nice” to everyone and feel shitty afterwards, I have to change and be kinder to myself:-)
NO does mean NO. However, the dreamy online tennis/golf dude who stood me up on the second date because I didn’t call him to wish him a happy birthday isn’t getting the pic. I blocked him last night but he texted twice tonight still begging for another chance. I called my service provider and the system didn’t update to implement the block which should be corrected tomorrow. Natalie, I’m so very glad I had you and BR on my shoulder and I did not respond (other than WOW!) and tell him all about himself. This guy is apparently used to second and probably a thousand chances and is acting as though he hasn’t heard NO before, despite he has an ex-wife and ex-girlfriend who have told him NO. In his messages he keeps telling me not to be a stubborn Taurus as though I should make some dodgy conclusion about myself about having boundaries. I can’t thank you enough Natalie. No response is the best ever, ever, ever. No second chance to shine me. There is one thing you don’t tell a Taurus is don’t be stubborn. Add some healthy boundaries and a year of BR to a stubborn Taurus and, yeah, AC’s don’t stand a chance. I’m making a judgment about me and it is a good one. Phew, this guy has issues and his issues can’t have anything to do with me since we only had a three hour dinner date. What a learning opportunity indeed. The lobster tacos were good though.
Runnergirl,
He really is completely barking mad.
I can’t believe that someone could get themselves into such a vortex of drama after one shortish date, and not have any insight into how screamingly inappropriate his behaviour is! Its made me laugh but it is scary to think that at some point some poor women is going to end up in a relationshit with him! Run for your life!
Runnergirl that story was just sooo funny. I almost wish you could carry on seeing him just for the comedy factor of reporting back to us, but as he seems certifiably nuts I guess you should live up to your name and run as fast as you can in the opposite direction. I have learned so much fron Natalies posts and all the other ladies on here. I am not sure I would have had the strength to end it and stay Nc without you all.
To Ukgirl ( I am Uk too) I had the ” i don’t want to see you any more” convo but it was the day after I had tried to have the convo face to face and he literally ran away from me to get on a train that wasn’t leaving for another 6 minutes. So I had to call him and do it and he had nothing to say of any value. He didn’t want to make me unhappy he said, but he obviously didn’t want to change his EUM ways and make me happy either. If it has been a while then I really wouldn’t bother. Just stay NC and if you have to think of him, think of him all miserable and alone BUT totally unable to change.
Oh, ewwwwww ICK! ACK!
I love how he’s got a manipulation pattern going that has obviously worked well in the past (don’t be a stubborn Taurus!) and you short-circuited it.
THAT is EXACTLY how they determine whether we are receptive to their shysty behavior!
If your ego had been ruffled and you responded, then he would know you’re up for the Drama Dance, you’d be entangled in it, and it would be on.
runner-
he’s a paper tiger who relies entirely on his looks. unfortunately, he messed with the bull and got the horns. the heck with him. next!
“the lobster tacos were good though”….heeeeeeeeeee…..
Cc:
That´s exactly what I was thinking today under the shower: Runner´s date relies too much on his looks.
I wonder though, if any guy would take such crap from a woman, even if she was an Angelina Jolie lookalike? Got me thinking that we women (well except us here on BR) could use some classes in Pride. How nice and decent men would become if we all treated them as Nat teaches!
Oh my goodness runnergirl, now he is telling you how not to behave? Based on your zodiak sign?
“This guy is apparently used to second and probably a thousand chances and is acting as though he hasn’t heard NO before, despite he has an ex-wife and ex-girlfriend who have told him NO”
Sheesh, I wonder WHY they told him no?? Where do guys get off expecting second, third, and more chances? My exMM expected the same! Let’s hope your next #7 guy is *worth* a second date, as this one clearly is NOT!! You go runnergirl!
This paper tiger (nice visual cc) triggered all the old triggers. Yeah, he was totally gaming for the EU/FBG dance. That dance ticket expired, thanks to Nat and you all. I held firmly on the flush handle and he got the horns by simply no response. Oh, I totally wanted to launch when he did the “don’t be a stubborn Taurus”. Since I spent the two prior years telling the exMM all about himself, I didn’t have it in me to tell a perfect stranger all about himself. No way, no how was this stranger’s issues about me. Yup if I’d responded, I’d be back on the EU roller coaster doing the FBG dance. My FBG dance tic has expired. Where do these guys get off expecting 7 trillion chances? Because we give it to them. You ladies are spot on and thank you for listening to my dating tales. It’s been really interesting since I dawned my BR lenses and shed the blinkers. Online dating isn’t for everyone but I’ve learned so much…as long as I keep BR in my purse. Nat you are a genius.
Oh, man. The world is full of all kinds. Makes for entertaining dating adventure reading, but who wants to be having to call up one’s service provider after a 3-hr dinner? Runner, your optimism and cheer about it all is awesome. Dude needs a check-up, but not from you.
Runner: it’s so clear. You’re not interested. It’s not mutual. A healthy guy would pick up on that and move on.
In a previous life (last year), I gave my #7 numerous chances after questionable chopping behavior. And he knew it, which started a slippery slope where he was the “driver” and ended up resenting me for being too passive. This year, I would handle it exactly like you are doing it. Way to go.
My mistake Cc. I’m a bit messt atm due to evening medication making my brain a little foggy (& this being when I check in for a quick read).
Sometime’s I think missing someone who didn’t treat us well is partly due to us not knowing the whole story as to why that was the case & so not connecting fully with our anger at being mistreated; a more appropriate emotion in some circumstances (& the key for me). Alternatively, our thoughts can just ‘go there’ out of habit (& I suspect there’s a psycho~physiological basis to this if the r/ship was ‘addictive’ in nature) or our mind does so to avoid some other present reality. Each person is different & don’t be too hard on yourself.
There’s a difference between getting thoughts of someone & entertaining them for hours on end. It sounds to me like you’re aware of that difference & trying to not think about your ex too much, be it negative or positive.
You DO tend to be rather hard on yourself so try to give yourself a break hey. It may have only lasted 4 1/2 mths with the guy but that doesn’t mean you’re noy allowed to feel hurt or disappointed. You’re doing the absolute best that you can & that is truely, OK. hugs, x
Revolution, you brought a tear to my eye. I was the only one who tried to help my ex b/c I was the only one who knew the truth of his situation & yr right tht I had steered him in the direction of professional help MANY TIMES, before I finally walked away. For 20+ long yrs I had loved that man, although we were not together for all of that time, due to his addiction issues. And no, no contact, is not a joke or some ploy we use to try to leverage for an outcome we want down the track. It really IS a complete letting go, for me, in the end, with a spirit of forgiveness & compassion. It’s a very powerful thing & hurts like hell. It is also neccessary though, to open the door to someone with a healthy self love more closely resembling my own & capable of loving me back, in return. x
Yep, I hear ya, teachable. *shares meaningful silence* 🙂
something about the egregious insanity of magnolia’s landlady’s letter made everything pop into focus for me about the subject of this post.
so often in life, with my friends, and on BR, i hear someone say “this person treated me like crap/broke their promises/lied to/cheated on/misled me/chopped/abused me/changed the terms of our agreement/used/ignored me/disappeared. …is it ME?”
uh, NO! LOOK at their actions, at the extreme nature or unbelievable thoughtlessness of their behavior! its NOT you. how could what they did possibly be attributable to you???
i’m actually starting to really get it, how ludicrous it is for us to EVER have worried that it was us, to EVER have come to some conclusion about ourselves because of someone else’s behavior. god! all that pain! all that misery! when really, our meters were off, or we were raised by people who didn’t instill in us any proper sense of ourselves – or, more likely, BOTH.
these past months, i have excoriated myself for having been too much of a complainer to the ex-EUM. no, i shouldn’t have complained – i should have OPTED OUT. being a true doormat would have gotten me nowhere. because the reason i complained was that his actions, which were attributable to HIM, were mixed at best, shitty at worst – he never made me feel i could relax and be happy with him. in my gut, putting that last bit of trust in him felt like a truly stupid leap of faith, an unacceptable risk. and that’s why i complained – i was, in a sense, begging him to really earn my trust. but he didn’t, not because of me, but because of HIM. i wasn’t crazy or a bitch. i was actually, in a backhanded way, finally smart after having been really fucking dumb. smart in a way that made me miserable, but still.
his crappy behavior, his emotional unavailability is not my fault – that’s how he showed up – and apparently, there was no amount of love i could have shown him that would make him soften up – he just watched my love, my care, come to him like it was motes of dust on the air that he just let drop to the floor – what a heartless douchebag. and even if he is with someone else now, i never could have survived these past 8-9 months with him continuing to behave as he did. he kept telling me to “give it time” while treating me in a less than manner – so my assessment of the chance that he was going to spontaneously combust into a man who really valued and loved me was correct: practically zero. and really, asking me to give it time while treating me that way was totally disrespectful to me, and was asking me to be disrespectful to myself – and i can finally see that i was right in saying NO to that. everything he gave he nearly immediately took away – that was HIS action – and my reaction to feel crazy in the face of that bewilderment was … NORMAL.
getting rid of him was the right thing. painful, but right. yes, it would have been better to not have engaged with him in the first place, but ok. what’s done is done. and i must stop raking myself over the coals that i might have spoiled, through complaining, the 0.01% chance that this walking spock would have become the man i needed him to be. to continue to do so is not loving/caring/respectful of me. and the feedback to me is to not be a complainer, but to OPT. OUT.
holy crap on a stick. is this closure?
thank you, magnolia, for sharing your crazy LL’s note. i’m sorry that you had to go through that. but thank you thank you thank you for sharing that experience here. ….i’m sending you a little virtual housewarming gift, wrapped in my heart, sealed with my grateful tears.
cc: i am thankful for a bunch of lessons (mainly around what I think I deserve) that have come from this experience. but if sharing them has helped you or anyone else then i’m particularly glad.
btw, I had a couple frank conversations with my roommate (a risk for me but at least not passive-aggro). I’m at peace with my decision and it has clicked that even if there was judgment about me coming from them, or implied in their actions, that’s not my problem. And similarly, my judgments of him or anyone else don’t matter. He and I both are/were just swimming as we could in the moment in this every-man-for-himself situation. He doesn’t hold my leaving against me at all, and i have simply wished him well in his attempt to make it work. Recent developments on that end have seen him going to look for new places of his own.
I had my first sleep in the new place last night. I looked more refreshed this morning than I have in weeks. My “own” memory foam bed! My own view of horses and tractors and mountains! I’ve been having weird moments of having to convince myself I deserve it. I think this little mishap may have served to teach me a whole lot of good stuff.
Yes cc
Your experience with your ex sounds much like mine. I agree, when we find ourselves full of complaints that are never addressed we have to see it as a sign that we should just shut up and shut the door on the relationship.
I’m still thinking about the parallels you’ve drawn cc; they work for me, too.
And Yoghurt, your story below about saying no with confidence is wonderful. Inspiring, and I GET it. The other day I said “no” when someone asked if they could put something they didn’t want in their room into mine (you don’t mind, do you, Magnolia?).
Yes, I do mind! Nope, you can’t put that here!
Chirpy as ever!
Not, “sorry, no,” or “um, I know I have no right to say no but I really would rather you wouldn’t but maybe” but a bright and casual “Nope!”
I think I may relive some long-lost two-year-old-ness and start saying no to a whole bunch of things! Maybe just to practice!
NO!!!!
(giggles girlishly)
Cheers magnolia – I GET it too, in fact the whole time I was sitting there going “Oh, so THIS is how it works, and this is how a nice normal (if overbusy) bloke behaves and speaks”. Crikey, it’s like I was living on another planet before.
D’you what was nice as well? He was just a really pleasant, normal bloke who was clearly intelligent and thoughtful, but he wasn’t really smooth, and occasionally clumsy in the way that he expressed himself. And that was okay too. Back in the day I would’ve written him off for that but I don’t need some full-on charmer to feel alright about and sure of myself anymore.
The challenge now is to keep the drama to a minimum after the event. There’s a (fairly large) bit of me that wants the validation of him trying to meet again but, really, I know that it can’t work as things are and if I do, probably so does he. And fair enough.
Anyhoo… I read your ll’s note as a sneaky way of saying “I thought that you were a bitch before but now you’ve crossed me I’m definitely sure and, by the way, it’s YOUR fault”.
Fiddlesticks.
Any normal healthy person who genuinely had met someone negative and awful would’ve felt a bit sorry for them and avoided having anything to do with them and they most CERTAINLY wouldn’t insult them after things hadn’t worked out. It’s most definitely her and not you (or true!), and that note in itself made me want to poke her in the eyes.
‘Any normal healthy person who genuinely had met someone negative and awful would’ve felt a bit sorry for them and avoided having anything to do with them and they most CERTAINLY wouldn’t insult them after things hadn’t worked out.’
isn’t it truely amazing how we often if not always have real clear visions of what ‘people with good boundaries and healthy self esteem would do’ and we can really sketch them realisticaly, yet we don’t seem to believe we are or can be that person? Even though we work really hard and try each and every day to become that person and we believe ‘we can make it’. That person is already within us. She or he is there! Isn’t it also a bit about being bold and just bé it? Sometimes I think we could make the best movie about these really strong women, and that’s because, deep down or not even that deep down, we already are. We are women, or people 🙂 who live sincerely. If we weren’t, we wouldn’t be chasing the ‘Truth’ this hard. Consider that fact. And start from there, if you haven’t found a starting point already. *just saying* 🙂
UK Girl
I too live in a small town and have to deal with my “problem children”. I work with one and the other lives at the bottom of our college drive. You can, if you know what their vehicle looks like, avoid them at the grocery store etc. At some point, you will encounter him and yes, perhaps with someone. You turn your head away and just walk on by. “Giving them your back” speaks volumes.
Natalie,
When I first discovered that, instead of being the love of the exMM’s life, I was actually the OW to his original OW, I came to the dodgy conclusion that I was not worthy of being his partner after all. In three years, he not only stayed married, but obviously did not even end things with his long-term OW, all the while telling me he wanted a future with me. I felt like a huge loser, a moron, someone not worth being partnered with. How could I have missed all the red flags, ignored my gut and given him a million “second chances” after each time he let me down? Not only was I not able to say NO to many of his shady suggestions (which were actually risky to my health, my career, and my reputation) but I was living so far from what my values are (even though I wasn’t clear on what they were back then, if indeed I had many). I *know* my biggest mistake was getting involved with the MM in the first place
After over 11 weeks of NC, I can see more clearly who he is, and I have been working on myself. However, over the last week or so, I have been feeling resentful that he seems to have gone back to his OOW, after they “broke up” when I first found out about her. I am angry that he gets to go back to his marriage plus FBG/OOW without missing a beat while I am trying to rebuild any self esteem I may have left after the humiliating ordeal. I am angry that he gets to keep hurting his wife *and* OW in the name of “getting his needs met”. He said, at the time, the OOW was shocked that he ended things, and wanted to remain in a friendship with him as she couldn’t bear to lose that aspect. I have a feeling they are back to being lovers.
Part of me wants to warn her about what he is really like. He once told me “she thinks she is filling a void in my life” and I thought, hmmm, I wonder why she thinks that – could he have manipulated her into thinking that perhaps? I don’t want to hurt her more by telling her about the exMM’s involvement with me, but I have a weird urge to “rescue” her from him. (OK, sure, I also have a desire to rain on his woman-using parade.)
OK, I *know* all this is projection and dodgy conclusions on my part, and really none of my business. She is a grown woman, knowingly involved with her friend’s husband, doesn’t know me, and has not asked to be rescued. I even thought of sending her an email along the lines of “If x has not been completely honest with you, would you want to know about it, or live in blissful ignorance?”
And I know I should be keeping my energy and attention to keep working on ME. I don’t know why, but I keep have intrusive thoughts about wanting to tell her (and maybe his wife, too)about what he’s been up to. I wondered if anyone else has gone ahead and blown the whistle on an ex’s shady behaviour with several women?
Learner,
I had those feelings, somewhat, but when I considered the kind of hurt I would be dishing out to his wife there’s no way I could have done it. They do deserve to know. But not from me. I could not have lived with myself. I would feel sickened. (bit late for that, you might well say, and you would be right). As you say focus on yourself, look away from his revolting behaviour. Don’t involve yourself any further with him. Is there any way you can look for another job where you won’t need to see him anymore? Having him visible around the place will hold you back – a clean break would be much better for you, and the challenge of another job will absorb a lot of the energy that’s being misused on him. I am truly, truly thankful that my town is my own and there won’t be any chance encounters.
Oh! Just realised you meant telling the OOW! oh well. Don’t bother. She’s busy being a FBG, she knows he’s married, he dumped her, maybe they’re back on, so what. She knows or should know she’s on the high road to nowhere with this guy. Has it occurred to you that there may well be OOOWs? Or he’ll be looking
to recruit more for his harem. He’ll get them too. There is an inexhaustible supply of FBGs online, IRL, whatever. What will you do about that? You cannot stop him or police him, and trying to do it will just burn up more of your own precious life and energy.
Hey Learner and Mymble, there’s no point in calling out a cheater. I was so angry that the exMM simply dumped me like rotten potatoes when his wife found out and then carried on with his wife as though nothing had happened. I was left with nothing because I made the choice to give up my life to accommodate his, including lying and cheating. Learner, it is hard but there is nothing to be gained for you in outing the double cheater. The OOW knows he is married. You knew he was married, I knew he was married. Now you and I know to never, ever, ever, ever give the time of day to a married man. That’s it. We got to let go and let them live their cheating life. And we need to be grateful that we aren’t their wife. Even when his wife found out he was having an affair with me, hired a PI, hacked his email, and found out everything…they are still married and conducting their married life as though nothing has happened. Yup, I’m chopped liver. So Learner, you could tell the wife and nothing would change. You could tell the OOW but she knows she’s an OW. Okay, so she doesn’t know she’s an O0W, but what’s the diff. Nope, revealing the harem to the other harem members won’t help you. You have to opt out. It sucks. But look at it this way, he has one less harem member to stroke his fragile ego? Guys are totally fragile.
Learner
Yes, it is normal to have these thoughts. Have them but don’t ever act on them. The OOW already knows he’s a cheating rat-bag (she is having an *affair* with him right under his wife’s nose! She is not some paragon of innocent virtue who is the victim of cruel and deceptive manipulation – She is supposed to be his wife’s friend for god’s sake! Let her go to the devil in her own way); no doubt she is in denial and that’s not something you can fix for her (even is it was sensible to do so, which it isn’t) by telling her anything – her denial is bigger than you. She’d only scorn you to maintain her delusions.
These women will (or not) meet up with sense and reality in their own good time. When they are ready to arrange that meeting they will do so with or without your interference. They are not ready and you cannot make them ready; you’re not that powerful. Stay away from the mess. To contact OOW or wife would only embroil you in all of their crazy drama – with great effort you have stepped away from your own part in crazy-ness, why would you want now to jump right into the middle of theirs and get all entangled in other people’s messes? Picture the scene: a whole shit load of furious ‘how dare you’ emails/texts/telephone calls back and forth. And that’s the best case scenario. Worst case is violence; attacks on you; attacks on your property; attacks on your reputation, on and at your workplace. It’s too much of the unknown and unpredictable – you don’t know how vengefully or violently people might react to these things. People have been seriously harmed and even murdered in these kind of embroilments. You never know who or what you could end up dealing with. Stay away from it all and just be glad you, for one, have escaped and are back on terra firma. Root yourself to the spot!
ps remember that you believed you were filling a great void in his life. Apparently not. The void in his life is him. He’s an arsehole and the OOW is deluded. You are not her psychiatrist, her social worker or her relationship counsellor. If she wants help she’ll find it.
Learner,
I completely understand where you are coming from. Part of the pain of all this is the thought that he is going to get away with it all and continue to hurt others. There have been times when I have day-dreamed about calling him out but have chosen to keep well away. Fearless’ comments reminded me of a conversation I had early on with the exMM. I can’t recall the actual words, but I remember him giving me a thinly disguised warning that it would be to my detriment if anyone at the university found out about our ‘relationship’. I remember feeling extremely uncomfortable, but pushed this aside while reassuring him I would never do anything to hurt him. (Recalling this makes me cringe, what the hell was I doing in this situation anyway!). I may have pushed this little warning aside, but I’ve never forgotten and it’s true who knows what these cunning, manipulative men are capable of. I agree there is nothing to be gained, but there could be lots to lose. Keep moving forward, they will eventually come unstuck in some way or another and by then you and I won’t even care.
Lilly,
He gave you a warning?? How crass. And how very wrong he is. Not that you’d ever be in the situation again (but life is a very long trail etc), but next time it’d serve you well to correct him sweetly with a reminder that it’s he, not you, who is the more vulnerable party at the university or the workplace or the community or wherever, with far more to lose. Remember that, and you won’t feel so helpless. These EU f-kwits need to be taught that they’re dealing with women who are a lot stronger than they are. Stronger, yes. I mean think of all the weight you carried for him. You’ve always been stronger than him.
Grizelda, I wish I had informed him that he was actually the more vulnerable party, but at that time I was like a love-struck teenager and I’m way, way, past that age. I truly thought he was the most amazing thing that ever walked the earth! I love your comment that “you’ve always been stronger than him” and I hope the EU f-kwit (love it) realises this. I’m certainly feeling stronger this week (what a roller coaster). I had the opportunity to, but didn’t (thanks to the support from wonderful BR community), re-engage and have finally sought some much needed therapy to help me sort out all these emotions. Thanks G, I like the image of myself as strong. I can get through this! We all can.
You’re very welcome. Throughout my 5-yr relationship with my exMMEU narcissist (yes, triple helping there, I must’ve been greedy), he would curl around me and purr and praise me for being so strong. “One of the strongest people I’ve ever known” is what he said on several occasions, and the closest thing he ever came to giving me a genuine compliment (one of the strongest, mind, not the strongest, which is himself, natch). But oh, hang on. He only loved that attribute in me because it suited him, not me. He was delighted I was strong enough to carry all the weight he wanted me to carry and trek on and on and on and on for him. I had massive strength and endurance to endure surviving on crumbs. And then when he decided he was bored and had enough, well no problem then! I’m one of the strongest people he’d ever known, right?! I’d be fiiiiiine, right?! My tale doesn’t have an ending yet, but I can’t wait to find out what it is.
Thank you all for your thoughtful replies.
Mymble: You are right; blowing the whistle on him could lead to even more hurt for all women involved here, including me. I must end my thoughts of his life/affairs completely, including the other people he has wrapped in his web of lies. Your suggestion to look for a new job makes sense in some ways, but as it stands right now, I don’t see him much at all. I have a full-time teaching job and two part-time jobs in my field. I met him though one of my part time jobs and will not be face-to-face with him for a few months. Most work is done electronically, thank goodness! I have considered the possibility of OOOOW’s , yes, and you make a good point that I cannot police his activities with any or all of them.
Runnergirl: ouch, what a way for “your” exMM to make a decision – under stressful circumstances of his wife finding out about your affair. When I read your words “chopped liver”, I first read it as “chopped lover” and I suppose that would also apply! How awful. OK, I see why you would say there is nothing to be gained by outing him! This ex-harem member is no longer available to stroke his fragile ego, or his fragile anything!
Fearless: great points. The OOW is not a paragon of innocent virtue here, just as I was not. I don’t want her scorn for my efforts at “helping” her. True – I am not that powerful that I can swoop in, give the wife and OOW some pertinent info that they can use for self-betterment, and then ride off into the sunset with a satisfied smile. When I thing of the logistics of how that may work, I’m not sure why I even thought I could pull that off! I do NOT want to be shot in some crime of passion for the sake of busting a sleazebag creep to his wife and OW. I am enjoying the decrease in drama in my life right now. “The void in his life is him”- Brilliant deduction, Fearless. Btw best of luck to you as you consider date number two with “your” guy. It sounds like he has his share of baggage, but a second date is not a lifelong commitment, so why not learn more if your spidey senses don’t protest too much?
Lilly: “Part of the pain of all this is the thought that he is going to get away with it all and continue to hurt others” – exactly! I am so looking forward to the day we no longer care! Oh, and what a jerk “your” exMM was to remind you of male privilege in society, whereby “indiscretions” harm women’s reputations more than men’s. I agree with Griselda – you are stronger than he is! OK, where are we now? Almost finished 12 weeks NC? Nothing to lose by continuing with that, and lots to gain! Onward we go NC sister ?
Learner
I sense you are feeling a bit down with the fallout of all of this. You really are doing so well – keep on choosing you; you will reap the benefits in good time. You will. You will not regret any of what you’re going through now. Take heart!
Fearless,
Yes, I am feeling down about the fallout – even five months after learning about the existence of the OOW, I still have trouble believing the depth of my self-deception and the extent of the exMM’s seemingly blatant disregard for the feelings and lives of several women. For some reason, having this sink in has taken longer than other shocking losses I have had, including the death of loved ones. Thank you for your encouragement – much appreciated. xo
Learner, I can relate. You are in the process of winning back your ‘self’ (me too) and it’s an extremely painful process. I think becoming more and more conscious of the extent of our self-deception, the reality of the situation and their disrespectful, callous behaviour is a sobering experience and it hurts. I don’t think we can avoid it. That’s probably why I wanted to re-engage last week – to stop it hurting. I was resisting the process. I think it takes a lot of strength to finally be honest with ourselves especially after living in fantasy land for so long. It is your willingness to face the truth that’s going to set you free. It might take some time, but you will get there (and I’ll be right alongside you). Be good to you. Xx
Learner, hugs. Lilly – what you said, “I think it takes a lot of strength to finally be honest with ourselves especially after living in fantasy land for so long. It is your willingness to face the truth that’s going to set you free.” YES! It comes down to us getting out of the fog and fantasy land. It’s painful but it has to be done for clarity and growth. Learner and the rest of you beautiful women struggling right now, I’m planning on taking the next bus out of fantasy land. Who wants to join me?
Lilly and JR – I agree with what you both wrote, and it brought tears to my eyes. Yes, let’s set ourselves free with the truth, no matter if it does cause us short term pain (that I wish could be shorter!!!) I am joining all who are on the bus out of fantasy land – a bit of a rough ride, but I know the destination will make it well worth it! So grateful for the company and support of fellow passengers. Hugs back to you, my BR companions xoxo
Learner
“having this sink in has taken longer than other shocking losses I have had, including the death of loved ones.”
I an relate too. It’s very painful on many levels. Acceptance will come. It’s not always linear – it can be one step forward, three back, but in time the progress is made. Many of us know exactly what you are experiencing. One day soon you will just see him a total fu*k-up and the details won’t matter.
Dancingqueen,
Yes, I did let him know that his treatment and behavior towards me was less than extraordinary, and thanked him for reminding me to love, value, and respect myself. He was manipulative as well as passive-aggressive, so it was great to be able to use his own words to take my power back and walk the eff away! YAY!!
“…there’s a major processing gap occurring between you receiving ‘feedback’ and the conclusion that actually makes you over-receptive to feedback.”
Yes, I am over-receptive to feedback. It’s like something is broken in my head. “This” makes me second guess myself all the time. 🙁
Being an ‘Over-Receiver’ taking stuff to the nth degree with your inverted ego issues ( “It’s about me”) and bad maths (2 + 2 = 52) can be pretty torturous and much of the pain is actually of your own making because it’s like you take it that the meaning you apply is correct even though you haven’t truly given any great deal of consideration to any other possibilities.”
I got this from my mother, and it’s a real b**ch.
I think this also has to do with the dark side of being a dreamer. I always imagine the worse case scenario, and I imagine that things will be harder to do or deal with than they turn out to be…causes a lot of unnecessary anxiety. I’m basically scaring the hell out of me.
“When something bad happens, or when someone does something shitty, or something doesn’t work out, you over-receive it as feedback that you’re not good enough, or that you did something wrong, or that you need to ‘change’, or that this one or that one is thinking something about you, that you might as well not bother trying, or that you‘re unlucky, or something. There’s always got to be something.”
This is me, and I complain to God, or think that he is punishing me. Lately, I have been considering the idea that I must have been a horrible person in a former life, who is now being punished in this life to learn the lessons that I didn’t learn in the last life. lol? *not really laughing*
I’m trying to get a grip; change my perspectiveS; relax; deal with the anxiety (harrrrrrrddddddddd); think things through; keep my mouth shut, and slow my mind down, but it is soooo hard when the thoughts come faster than I can sort them out, and I have a ‘quick trigger’, aggressive defense system that …(more nth degree 🙁 ).
I can accept that I am expressive, but the drama, over-reacting…I want to get away from it and just be able to slow down and breathe.
“You are a projector which has got nothing to do with empathy and is actually…bullshitting.”
Me again, but I am getting better at this one…. I think I’m really starting to appreciate other people’s boundaries…starting to see them as different than me…not ME…”this is where I end, and this is where they begin” sort of thing….
I found myself really trying to be empathetic without placing myself in a ‘friend’s’ shoes; I really tried to listen to her and keep her in her shoes, and then I tried to understand what the problem was. I felt as if I felt her pain, but I’m NOT going to take responsibility for her pain and problem, but still help her if I can…important, because I don’t want to venture into codependent land either…and I only want to give because I want to give, not because I want something in return, which in this case I really do just want to help her, and I don’t want anything in return. 🙂 Er, progress….
I’m really ‘chewing’ on this post because I am answering yes to everything, and sadly this is what makes me feel bad about myself, and many of my ‘ex’s’ have called me on this–‘my crazy thinking’ and over-reacting, so I’m thinking where does that leave me, but to think that I AM f**ked up?
I guess that leaves me accepting myself and knowing that I am not my behavior, and that I can change my behavior.
I guess that leaves me facing my insecurities, slowing myself down, and a helluva lot of self-monitoring…so difficult, and how will I build confidence and trust in myself knowing I have thinking issues? I feel so suggestible to manipulation.
Yet, I am going to change my perspective because I feel so close to obtaining some real improvements in myself, and I see where I have no choice but to keep moving forward…, so these are my big-beastie demons, and it looks like here I come to tackle some more patterns because once I get past these…I’m going to feel damn good.
Thank you Natalie!
Many blessing onto you and yours~~from the heart :):)
I know that this isn’t a forum and I’ll try to keep it on-topic but I’ve got to tell you all cos I’m SO pleased about it… 😀
I had a date! One of those mysterious thingies that other people have always had but never me. Well, really just a coffee and a chat, but with definite datey-overtones.
There’s a bloke that I met about six months ago, who has texted me on and off but who I hadn’t met. Eventually I got tired of having ‘Mystery xxx’ in my phone book, took the plunge and asked if he wanted to go for a coffee. I would NEVER have done that in the old days, but I figured that he always had the right to say no and it wouldn’t kill me if he did.
He didn’t say no (although it took a long while to sort) and we went out. One of the first things to come out was that he has a stupidly high-pressured job which is currently taking over his entire life and making him unhappy.
Someone who is so busy that it’s making them miserable themself is hardly going to be able to afford high priority to someone else, so that’s a red flag and a no from me. I’m quite happy to meet up occasionally for a natter, but I’m not expecting anything from him in terms of either a friendship or a relationship right now.
The thing is, it’s no reflection on him… I liked him a lot, I really enjoyed talking to him and found him really attractive. It’s just that I know he couldn’t give me the sort of relationship I’m after and that’s that. And if he decides the same about me, then that isn’t a reflection on me, either – probably says more about what he feels up to now.
It’s weird, I’m feeling dead pleased and I keep thinking that I’m dead pleased over him, but when I stop and think I’m not really – it’s a no-go. I’m more pleased because for the FIRST TIME EVER I’ve gone out and met someone with my self-esteem in tow! And it feels completely different – much safer, much calmer but really a lot more satisfying, fulfilling and interesting.
go yoghurt! a “no” without drama! WOOT!!!
Great to hear Yoghurt. Super busy is a red flag for me too. I know what you mean about having some self-esteem in tow, although I still experience the wobbles. Boundaries work wonders as sometimes its an automatic NO. It’s like I finally have my back. It always amazes me that truly important people who run countries have time for relationships, although we can never really know from the outside. Careful with meeting up for a natter though! Cheers to you.
Yoghurt that is awesome; good for you! I relate, I am really almost enjoying the “no without drama” more than the possibility of yes lol…it does feel so different, doesn’t it, to date with self-esteem intact:)?
Just a little note to say I am again (again!) feeling the love for BR – all the straight talk and support and community. This is not the first time BR has been a steady thing, an uncannily timely place of wisdom, when life has seemed turbulent or confusing. *mwah* *mwah*!
mwah!
sm I LOVE your style! Nice! Ha indeed! x
Gina, all I initially said to Cc, I say to you, for letting go in the spirit you were able to. Such generosity is not always possible, or sometimes appropriate, but where it is, it takes the BIGGER person to execute, so full respect to you. I admire that. I know how hard it can be…
Cc… YES… THAT is your closure… I was FURIOUS with myself & my ex when I finally pulled the plug, due to the way I’d allowed myself to be mistreated by him. I’d fallen in love with him many years before the drugs were ever an issue… My anger when I discovered the full extent of his BS was my closure & was the fuel I needed to make my NC ‘stick’ the final time, after many failed prior attempts.
However your situation looks for you, i.e. same shite / different details perhaps, if it involves getting in touch with you anger, then you are on the right track in terms of kick starting your resolve to stay away & never return. Hang in there. You already know you can do much better than that guy. No guy at all, is better than who treats us like crap! xx
And thankyou for your kind words & shelter in the bottle Cc. I’m plumping yr pillows for you so you can start a lovely new week refreshed, & serving up a pot of Chai tea fresh from the genie kitchen… I will sit here & noodle on my guitar & sing you some soft smokey blues in the corner… it might help to soothe your soul 🙂
This is a bit off topic but the closest I’ll get to a ‘date’ for quite some time yet due to ill health. Today my counsellor, who does outreach to see me at home, arrived to take me to a medical appoint. I can barely walk, but dressed ‘nicely’ for the doc, then we loaded me into the car, complete with special pillow & hot water bottle, so I could tolerate the trip (I refuse pain meds so it’s all a bit of a hassle). Once we got going, I turned to the counsellor who was driving, an old aquaintence (male) of many years & joked, complete with lippie (for the doc), so Jeeves, shall we head for dinner then? I looked like a bloody hospital patient dressed in her best trackie & we both cracked up laughing! It’s good to finally be able to not care what ppl think of me hey, & just LAUGH @ the absurdity of life here atm! I hope someone else gets a little chuckle out of the mental pic of tht!
Yogurt. Congratulations, girl! I don’t know all you have been through but it sounds like BR is helping you put your needs first and eliminate the Mr. Unavailables that cannot meet them. When you started your post and told about how he’s so busy on his job, I said to myself, “Oh,no. I hope she’s not falling for that excuse”, especially after you had said that it was an ordeal for him to go for coffee with you. He’s not a world leader, is he? I always tell myself, “Shite, President Obama makes time for his family. If he can do it, anyone can find the time to do what they’re committed to doing and can find any old flimsy excuse not to engage. Your success is encouraging. Keep it up.
Thanks Tinkerbell 🙂
You don’t want to know what I’ve been through, but needless to say after fifteen years of bad relationships, an unplanned pregnancy with an EUM and two years of sitting very still so as not to reopen any wounds, it’s really nice to have some concrete proof that my life is finally moving forwards a bit!
I didn’t fall for it, but in fairness he’s not messing me around in any way, shape or form. He’s EU for a relationship, I think, but he’s not nasty or manipulative with it, or using it as an excuse (afaics – obviously I don’t know him very well). At any rate, his behaviour hasn’t been at all offensive and I can extend some understanding because work-life imbalances can be really difficult.
Having said that, I’d be a total numpty to ignore that and decide that it was a good idea to plunge in and make him the epicentre of my entire emotional life. He’s a nice person to have a (very) occasional coffee with and that’s it.
Learner. What Fearless told you could not have expressed my sentiments more. I almost posted my take on your desire to “save” his, wife, his OW, his OOW ad infinitum, but was too emotional to be able to construct exactly what I wanted to say. Emotional because I know from experience how you feel. Fearless said it all. DO NOT complicate your life and jeopardize your safety over that A—hole.
Thanks Tinkerbell,
You are right, it is not worth it to risk my safety. He can keep his “complications” whom he refers to as “baggage”. They can save themselves when they are ready.
Hi guys this is a little bit off the topic but recently I have really been trying to look back into my past to see if there are any resolved issues or ‘triggers’ as to why in relationships I get involved with emotionally unavailable men – I had a relatively happy childhood, my parents are still together and I didn’t suffer any physical mistreatment and physically my Dad was always present- I did have a poor relationship with my father from my teenage years and although we get on a lot better now I wouldn’t say we were close – my Dad never really showed much interest in me and conversations were difficult as he often just wasn’t listening and would be reading the newspaper or watching tv as I was talking – he has no idea what degree I have or what I now do for a living – he is unable to talk about his ‘feelings’ and doesn’t even believe that things such as depression exist – his relationship with my mother was very traditional and he expected his dinner to be on the table when he got home – my mother never had an issue doing this though. My Mum has recently lost her Mother to cancer and my Dad has been of little emotional use to her – practically her is fantastic! All the literature I have read about the Father/Daughter dynamic seems to focus on men who are absent or who mistreat their wives/daughters but I am wondering if my experiences contribute to the men I get involved with – my last relationship was with some-one who could not discuss his feelings or tell me he loved me – if we had an argument he would freeze me out
Marie
Sounds like my dad. When I described my relationship with him to my counsellor he said, “No wonder you went seeking approval from other men”. That was an aha/doh moment.
You aren’t born knowing how men should treat women, how to express your wants,needs and desires, how to navigate conflict, what love is, how to show it, how to receive it. That’s why human beings stay dependent on their parents for a very long time, that’s a lot of stuff to learn.
We all recognise that parents can teach you good stuff. We then have to accept that they can teach you bad stuff too. not on purpose, it’s all they know. I expect his father was the same.
But you can learn to do things differently and, one day, you may be able to unpick some good things he taught you. For me, I learned stoicism, not to be a bighead, to be calm, when to keep my mouth shut. All these things can be taken too far but they do have their place.
My sister had a couple of very bad boyfriends. I had a few more but we got there in the end, and so can you.
marie, honey-
look at your own description – your father, no disrespect, WAS absent even though his body was right there. he ignores/d you and your mom, takes/took no interest in your life, denies that feelings (depression) exist, doesn’t/can’t step up to comfort your mother for the most basic (losing a parent) and obvious grieving…yet he expected you both to perform like trained dogs.
just because your mom accepted this doesn’t mean that it was healthy. doesn’t mean that you aren’t living this legacy every day of your life.
so:
point a- EU father
point b- you have relationships with EUMs
a to b = straight line
work on this. i warn you: once you become conscious of what your father robbed you of (sorry) it will hurt, very, very, very badly. once you understand how this has affected your life, and that you are the one who has to fix it, you will become very, very, very angry.
but you can absolutely fix it. you absolutely can.
massive hugs
and i would betcha $100 (or £, as the case may be) that the emotionless depression denier is himself depressed.
goodness, marie-
now that i read it back, the “what your father robbed you of” was rather abrupt and came off quite harshly. i’m afraid it might have jarred you. i must apologize. i should have put it much more diplomatically. i am sorry.
Marie,
I recognise your father’s type as the same one I had, except mine had an explosive temper to boot. I don’t have many answers, but there are maybe one or two things I can offer which you can try on for size.
You were raised in an environment where dealing with ‘difficult men’ was the accepted norm. You were trained very well indeed from day one to cope with a dismissive, self-absorbed, non-communicating EUM day-in, day-out, whose behaviour was never questioned. It was just accepted as being his character. And this was part and parcel of your happy family life. In other words, you were raised to become a fully fledged EUM co-dependant and enabler yourself someday. Knowing how to deal with (or condone the behaviour of) EUMs is one of the many take-aways from your childhood.
Does that chime with your experience?
It did with mine. My mother always insisted that “if you have a big heart, you should be more willing and able to give more (and more and more and more) of yourself to people who just don’t have such big hearts”. Um. I love mum, but christalmighty. I’m grown up enough now to see that this so-called gem of wisdom is really a dose of poison and a one way ticket into abusive relationships. Thankfully, I’ve only ever had wonderful, fulfilling and beautiful relationships… until my very latest one with an EUM.
Marie
What you desribe sounds typical of men of my fathers generation. They were raised to be emotionally closed and childrearing was womens work; I was supposed to grow up to be an “ordinary housewife”. Education was considered “a waste of time”. When my dads first marriage tanked and it became clear my mother was an unfit parent, he simply recruited another woman to raise his kids; an alcoholic. Often women choose reflections of their dads then try and “fix” them like they wish their dad could be fixed. Early in my relationship life (late teens), I did this, learned it doesn’t work, I had to spend a lot of time reading about dysfunctional families, and survivors of childhood abuse to understand the dynamics of what was/had occurred in my life and how it affected my decisions. You may need to do this too. I had to pretty much “throw away” my family and make it a priority to escape that culture of anti-intellectualism and substance abuse. Since my 20’s, any man that wasn’t educated, healthy, and emotionally mature was/is not considered relationship material. I still take care of my dad, but there’s no emotional connection and that’s ok.
Natalie … you are a blessing.
Learner … the wife has her eyes closed. Its not your job to pry ’em open. That’ll get you smacked for sure!! She’ll open them when she’s ready. (Just like we all did.) Maybe just pray for her?
Teachable … loved your story! Carry on!
Learner,
I understand perfectly what you’re saying and feeling about wanting to strike out at your exEUM. I’ve felt it too, as recently as a few days ago. It’s normal. But, like the others have said, it’s a short-termist strategy that will leave you looking like a fool.
Coupla things. First, if you give it more time and space — saying nothing and doing nothing more — its importance to you will diminish. The urgent need to act will lessen. You can think more clearly. That’d be a better place for you, wouldn’t it? Second, and it might be hard for you to swallow this right now, but rest assured that the universe has a way a taking care of its own. What goes around, comes around — every time. Believe me, every time. And schadenfreude is sweet nectar. No need to take revenge by your own hand, it will be taken care of for you, if you want to think of it that way. More concretely, think about the situation objectively — he has constructed the most god-awful dangerous situation that simply cannot be sustained forever. It will collapse sooner or later. It just will. And you’re better off not being caught up in the mess when it does.
Griselda,
Oooh, I love your idea that he will “get his” when what goes around comes around. Not sure what shadenfreude is, but will google it now – it sounds intriguing. I do NOT want to be caught up in the mess when his dangerous situation implodes, and his house of cards collapses. I am keeping on doing nothing, and saying nothing – maintaining the silence as Lilly has written about. Ahhh, sweet NC.
Thanks guys 🙂 My dad had a weird upbringing, he is irish and his dad moved to america when he was a young child and his mum was supposed to join him but chose not to so he didnt meet him till he was 30. His mum was a very harsh woman and locked him in cupboards as punishment ( my dad never discusses this but my mum tells me) i think he could do with some therapy but can’t see that happening but after reading baggage reclaim i realised that i need to reconcile these feelings and work on breaking my relationship habits xx
It was due to this site that i knew whatcto do , the old me would have bought the lies and crap and carried on in a mot rlship with mm who had now got another ow , i had lues , crocodile tears , fobbing off etc but i choose for him , i said you made your choice and im no longer here for you , i told him youve treated me like shit . Ive since signed up for college , and a guitar course , this will be my first no week of contact and two weks of of fb torturing myself i feel calmer not knowing what going on , i have had revenge thoughts but ill leave it to fate getting him it will hes picked a ow with a nutjob mate so i can see it ending in tears . Me ill be long gone head held high . Love and strength to you all xx
Yes Grizelda i think my mum is similar to that, she is a truly lovely woman but doesn’t think you should stand upto anyone – i have a bully for a boss who i find quite intimidating and her advice is always ‘keep your head down and ignore it’
In this article when you say, “Why does something unfavourable happening mean that you’re not good enough or that you’re X,Y,Z? Couldn’t it mean something else?” …
AMEN Natalie. Before I cut contact with the ex EUM (assclown), he had been very hot and cold, canceling plans here and there or a weekend getaway with me and would go dark for weeks — he wanted me when he wanted me but I see now it was just for his sexual needs and that was it. The trouble is, I really liked him. I think I started to feel kind of obsessive because AFTER he reeled me in as a possible relationship, he got flippant and flighty. We had some very nice dates, cooking together and taking longs walks and talking for many hours. But when he began this flaky on/off junk with me, I was wondering what the hell was wrong with me –how could he just put me away (like a book) for weeks only to pick me back up again. Then he started only texting late for booty calls and then when I started declining his offers to come over entirely, he called me bad names on a public forum. His message was cruel and disturbing actually. I’ve been struggling not to internalize his remarks or believe any of it — but self doubt starts to creep in. I’ve always been in the mindset to try to prove to mean people like him that they are wrong, especially when they are cruel to me or someone I love. Reading this article — I realize that not only did I start exercising my options (going out with friends more, started dating other nice men) but I’m teaching myself that it was always him with the problems and effed up psyche. I didn’t do anything wrong. It’s hard to see that at first but I think shouting out “I’m not to blame. I didn’t do anything wrong!” can be really helpful. I’m not saying I’m perfect or anything like that but in this short dating relationship, I hadn’t even brought out my stuff from the closet yet! I was buying him gifts and being fun and he seemed very happy to be with me. I try to remind myself that him treating me like a number wasn’t my fault. Today, I still struggle with NC since tomorrow it will only be 2 weeks since he last texted. If anyone on this site has more suggestions/tricks on how to stay no contact, I’d love to hear them. I’m still struggling hour by hour.
JR
Just keep telling yourself you’re fabulous and that you don’t need him to reaffirm that, agree with it, or think it cos you just are, still are and always will be – fabulous.
For me it really helped to put a lot of effort into validating myself so that I didn’t feel the need to go begging him to do it for me.
Jr
“I’ve always been in the mindset to try to prove to mean people like him that they are wrong, especially when they are cruel to me or someone I love.”
Sweetie you do not have the power to prove to mean people that they are wrong. If any of us did than we would be very powerful indeed right?
Reread Nat’s post on “Be glad that he did not show up”…Hugs:)
Marie,
Based on that, I’m going to bring it right back to the topic of ‘Dodgy Conclusions’.
I was raised to believe:
– Since you have a big heart, you need to give others who don’t have such a big heart more and more of yourself. READ: You should be pleased to receive abuse and bad behaviour from people who have hearts like tiny cold black chunks of flint. You need to enable those people. Enabling them validates your goodness.
– If you think bad things, God will know. He will punish you. READ: Be very, very afraid of individuals who have authority over you. It is their status quo and it exists for a reason. Permitting thoughts, never mind actions, beyond the status quo will send you into a world of pain. Yes, it IS all your fault.
– Don’t make a big thing about yourself or speak up. You’re not so special, and that’s showing off. Everyone hates showoffs. READ: You better come up with some pretty good excuses why you think you deserve anything in life.
Also, my father had a completely irrational and out-of-control temper that would explode. He’d never react physically, but the shouting and screaming… *shudder*
I don’t mean to suggest I still believe all that garbage. But I will always read situations to reflect on myself very harshly. A director at work only has to say (cheerily) “May I have a word?” before my blood turns to acid and my legs lock up so I can hardly stand and walk. A brown envelope from Tax & Revenue only has to land on my mat and I know there’ll be a demand for a million pounds in it which I can’t pay and they’ll throw me in jail. I see a tramp begging on the street and I know, deep inside, I should really be in his place.
Thankfully I’ve had all relationships with good men — except one. The worst I can say on the good rellies is that I underestimated myself and sold myself very short in many ways, but they were still good decent men. The relationships just ran their course one way or the other. One very long and largely happy marriage is amicably behind me. All my relationships were invariably long term. Sadly, so was my most recent relationship with the exMMEU narcissist, and I’m struggling to cope with that one. My ancient determination to give, give, give, to get along and acquiesce, and be grateful for crumbs, got the better of me.
You’ve hit every nail on the head again, Natalie. Reading back actions I’ve been guilty of myself in past is a huge wake up call. Thankful I am on a much better path now, of accepting and loving myself! This article zeros in on the actual self drama and games exposing it for what it is. No one touches on these issues like this, thank you!
Sorry for being off topic but this is an emergency!! Nooooo…. I’m a fool!!!! I’m 8 days off having done 3 months absolute no contact and what did I do? I failed!
My sister just got engaged and I’m really excited about it. So I posted a picture of me and my sister the day she got engaged, (me looking really good I might add). The caption was ‘my sister’s getting married!!!’ I know when I put up pictures of me looking good it’s always in the back of my mind that I want him to see them, because I most likely still crave that validation from him that I am actually pretty great. Anyway he commented on the photo, saying ‘wow! congratulations!’ And STUPIDLY, IMPULSIVELY, I clicked ‘like’. I know this may not seem like much but since I told him I wanted to go NC he’s texted me a few times, wrote on my stuff on FB, liked stuff etc and I’ve remained completely and dignified-ly silent. I’ve felt so good about it so WHY did I snap and ruin it? I guess I thought I’d be nice and courteous. I guess deep down I wanted to let him feel that I don’t hate him. Even though I hate his behaviour and how he made me feel. But now that I’m stronger I feel differently about it.
Anyway I can’t shake the feeling that he’s had his validation now “she’s still into me” and all the chasing and wondering he did when he was so intrigued by me being strong for once and keeping my word, is over, because he’ll go back to ‘oh, I can have her if I really want’. I really hope he’s not reading in to this seemingly insignificant token of attention as much as I am. I mean, really it is a crumb isn’t it. But you know Mr Unavailables and how they take any iota of contact from you as ‘relax, it’s all good, she’s still into me’. And before I felt so good that for ONCE I was the strong one that showed with my behaviour I didn’t need or want him. And for once he was the one left waiting, wondering, etc.
AAARRRRGHHH!!! Why did I do it. 🙁
wren-
stop. you ‘liked’ a FB post. that’s ALL. you didn’t show up at his house naked, or write him a treatise, or cook him a 7-course meal and have it delivered to his place of work. its nothing.
…ok, its not exactly nothing, but its 1/2 a crumb above nothing. its definitely negligible. and you’re making a mountain out of it.
my BFF, who met her now HUSBAND on the same site i met my ex-EUM a month before i met him got MARRIED on friday. i’m thrilled for her. but jesus christ on a bike (sorry, grace) it makes me sad for me. which i’m realizing dovetails precisely with my recent spasm over the ex-EUM. are you happy for your sister? yes! do you wish it was you marrying some wonderful man? YES.
let yourself off the hook. your sister’s upcoming nuptuals put you in a vulnerable place and you – perish the thought – liked his FB post. gee whiz. so what. you’re human.
and i hate to break it to you – he might not be left wondering, waiting, and thinking ‘she’s all into me’ because all you did was like his reply. you’re happy for your sister. even he knows that.
so let yourself totally and completely off the hook. you’re still the strong one. honest. just resume NC (in my book, you didn’t really break it, maybe you sprained it a little) and breeze on.
Wren,
Dial down the drama!!!!
It was just a click of a button on FB that took a nanosecond.
It’s not like you wrote him a letter begging to get back together.
It was just a click. And you can unlike it.
And get on with your life.
lmao thinking of him hanging out with his buddies, high-fiving everybody…”duuuuude, she TOTALLY liked my FB comment! Didn’t I tell ya? I can have her ANY time I want! SHE CLICKED LIIIIIIKE! Woot woot! I’ll be hitting THAT tonight fo sho!”
*facepalm*
I snorted…thanks for this 🙂
Wren
you ‘liked’ his comment; it’s not the same as ‘liking’ him. And is it’s over and done for good, why does it matter what he thinks? I wouldn’t worry now about breaking my long-time NC with the ex EUM on the grounds that he would think I’m still interested in him but I would worry on the grounds that it would be very bad for me, painful for me.
The reason the click on ‘like’ is not important is because it’s not going to bring you any new pain, it’s not really ‘contact’ it’s nothing more than the click of a mouse. What it might mean for him is neither here nor there cos you’re not (I hope) going back with him anyway, ever, so who cares what some guy you’re never going to be with again thinks. Let him think what he likes. If I were you I’d be more concerned that I haven’t deleted him from f/book yet cos I want him to see pics of me looking good. Are you really NC, or juts faux NC for effect and the reason you’re miffed about the click is cos you think you ruined the effect? If you really want to draw a line under this relationship, forget about the ‘effect’ and draw the line – for you, so you can move on. NC is for you, not for him and not to teach him anything about what he’s missing.
Wren, I’m on the same lines as Fearless…it isn’t like you are going back to him (I hope). I admit I texted my AC yesterday so there…my bad move was worse than yours. I was acting within my boundaries though. He made a suggestive comment and I didn’t play. Just as your Like button didn’t put you at his door begging for him. Maybe in some cases, when we are strong enough, we can make the choice to react to them or not and it teaches us to turn them down and is empowering. I think NC is a great tool don’t get me wrong. I just think that we shouldn’t beat ourselves up as long as we are still in control. I’m actually ok today and the world didn’t crumble. Don’t be too hard on yourself!
Wren, Please relax! Your comment does relate to this post. You’re taking a situation and having it mean something that makes you feel bad about you. I do know what you mean about needing to take the power back in the dynamic but this wasn’t about him or you except in your head.
He was congratulating your sister’s news and you “liked” her status, too. Why can you and he still see each other’s fb posts, though?!! NC is for you to heal and move on, not to prove something to him. If you’re looking at his fb and speculating on what he’s reading into your post/pics, I hate to tell you but you haven’t actually been NC and are prolonging your own unhappiness.
Just want to add this thought: If you aren’t/wouldn’t be friends with someone IRL (in real life), you shouldn’t be “friends” on Facebook either!
Thanks everyone. I admit I did go a bit overboard with this. But, strangely, it really felt like an emergency when I woke up in the middle of the night last night suddenly ‘realising’ I’d made a gigantic mistake. Perhaps I was just generally anxious and my mind latched on to something that could justify it or centre the anxiety on. I did have dreams/nightmares that I was getting married and although I’m not sure if it was to him, he was there at points. And my wedding was going horribly wrong because it had all been planned on the spot and I hadn’t had enough time to get all dressed up properly. Then my bridesmaid made a snide remark about how I looked and when I got upset, claimed it was a joke and I was being too serious. I guess the upcoming wedding, things I’ve been talking about on BR, and the closest I’ve come to ‘contact’ with him in nearly 3 months all combined to create a night of tossing and turning and weird dreams after which I woke up and felt I’d made a massive mistake by ‘liking’ his comment. After a day of mulling it over I can now see I was a bit OTT on this. Sorry guys and I do feel embarrassed. I guess it’s not the end of the world and anyway like I read on here before, it’s not that we actually lose our personal power to these guys when we ‘slip up’ from our strong boundary defending, we only feel powerless cause our thinking gives them the power back.
I haven’t been looking at his page, I’ve made it so nothing from him comes up on mine. However I believe he can still see my updates so that’s why he saw the photo. I know that NC needs to be about me and looking after my needs, not teaching him a lesson, and primarily it has been. But I have to admit there is a part of it that is like ‘ha, how do you like that now?’ where he gets to feel like I felt, i.e. unimportant and ignored.
I guess this is just a wake up call that I have a lot of work to do. Not sure how I turned this mountain in to a molehill but I sure can work myself up in to a frenzy from time to time.
Thanks everyone for all your replies, though some of them made me feel pretty silly. I think I needed some sense shaken in to me.
xx
easy, wren.
no shaking. be gentle. yes, you had a little spasm. you, like me, tend to over-criticize yourself. take the claws out in general.
hugs
While on the subject of NC brought up by Wren…yes I broke NC. Am I proud? No but I’m not mad either. He replied several times to my texts. Then he didn’t reply to something later and so now I feel like a fool. I’m wonder if I look desperate and silly. But I know I can start NC again right now… I just know that taking him out of my phone is useless because I have his number memorized. It comes down to will power. I ask myself now why did I do it? What did I hope would happen? Do I really want him to pursue me until I give in again and begin this misery from scratch because I know a leopard doesn’t change his spots. I’d suffer all over again. I already know it would be no different. Is it wrong of me to be flattered by the fact that he still wants to communicate and wants me to come over there?
JR
If you take his name out of your phone then
1. You won’t see his name every time you scroll through your list of contacts, so that little trigger/reminder will be gone
2.it will “slow you down” having to type out the number before phoning or texting, and possibly you’ll think the better of it
3. You may actually forget the number at some point. If that makes you feel too anxious you could write the number and put it away In a drawer somewhere. (that’s what I did) Put it this way, why are you keeping it? Does it symbolise some kind of hope or connection with him, for you? I sympathise, its hard to let go.
Mymble, JR
I forgot the exes’numbers.
Even though I text the boyfriend (I’ve promoted him) every day I don’t have his number memorised and wouldn’t recognise it if you showed it me. I don’t have to remember it, we see each other in real life. I know what he looks and sounds like though.
Talking about dodgy conclusions, the first time he texted me my heart sank because I have had such negative experiences with text “relationships” and sexting. No our texts are what they are – JUST TEXTS. They aren’t a relationship, they aren’t a sign of love, they’re just a laugh, and a way to keep in touch between dates.
JR, one day you will find it insulting that a man texts you and expects you to pop over for sex/to give him an ego stroke. It’s not flattering at all. How would he feel if someone did it to his mother, aunt, sister, niece/daughter/whatever? Would he say “yeah, he sounds like a great guy! Why didn’t you go?!”
That is nice that the man got a promotion! Congrats to him!
Ditto, Mags!
Grace said ‘boyfriend’! Yay.
Grace, you so deserve a “boyfriend” and I think he deserves the promotion. You are an inspiration to us all. I hope you won’t wander off with your boyf and leave us to deal with our own silliness!
Hey Grace, wonderful to hear. I love hearing about how things are calmly progressing even if there are some anxiety filled moments.
Did you get a promotion too?
aw, thanks all.
I’d not really given much thought to boyfriend/girlfriend status. it was actually my niece who called him “grace’s boyfriend” after she met him. And I thought, yes, he is. We’ve navigated the divorce, some of my past, some of his, the age difference, marriage, children, fidelity. We see each other often, we make plans in advance. What we call it isn’t that important to me right now. We seem to be talking naturally about these things as they come up, so I’m sure we will discuss it at the right time. I’ve had to put some Big Stuff on the table, so I’m going to kick back and relax for a while.
I don’t feel hidden, though, so that’s great.
GRACE SAID BOYFRIEND! AAHH!!!
(does the happy dance)
Thanks for the comments Mymble and Grace. Actually, I did take him out of my phone, once when we were actually seeing each other and I tried to break it off and now he is only in my phone as ASSCLOWN because it’s a reminder to me of what he is. I just know that since I already know his number by heart, taking him out completely doesn’t work anymore but I hear ya Mymble on the “slowing me down” part to think about it. It’s true that that has happened to me already. Grace, you are right it isn’t flattering. It’s very arrogant of him. I feel good that I pretty much shot him down on that. The thing is, I already know I won’t get any messages from him that are nice, or actually asking me out on a regular date or just seeing how I am. I may never get another message from him that he initiates himself. That reality is what I have to cope with now and it’s painful. I’m pretty mixed up right now and I have to do better at moving on. 🙁
JR
At the risk of being argumentative, why is it that you resist the idea of taking his number off your phone? How can “the idea of not getting a text” be painful? Everytime you see ASSCLOWN on your phone you will be reminded of him. And reminded that he isn’t texting. Why don’t you take control and say to yourself that you can phone or text him anytime you like (which you can) but you are going to put him – his number- in a drawer for a period, and deal with him later, while you get on with (whatever you need or want to get on with).
Physically doing that felt calming and empowering to me, why don’t you try? Set yourself a period of time during which you won’t call or text and agree with yourself you’ll review that decision on expiry of the time.
I would also strongly recommend doing the “Unsent letter” workbook – with paper and pen, it felt more meaningful to me doing it like that. It puts more of you in it.
And, finally, why on earth would you have, as a contact, an ASSCLOWN? You’ve decided that’s what he is, so why not act accordingly?
your contacts list is for friends, family and useful people like plumber, electrician, hairdresser etc. He is neither use nor ornament.
Here’s the thing ladies: there are some people in this world that are simply too screwed up to partake in a healthy relationship. For whatever reason, they are damaged goods. Our job is not to try to change them, make ourselves worthy of their love, or play nicey nicey with them–would you dare try and mess with a posionous snake if you stumbled upon one while walking? Hell no!! You would high tail it away from the creature as fast as you could.
Our job is to enhance our spidey senses so that we can identify these insiduous indivduals, and weed them out before we get involved with them in the first place! Do you recall the story of the man who came to a river and encountered a charming snake that begged for help crossing a river because it could not swim? Pleading with the man, it asked to be put inside his jacket pocket and carried across to the other side. The man said, “But you are a snake! Surely you will bite me if I put you inside of my jacket pocket!” The snake replied, “That would be foolish because neither one of us would make it across the river safely. I promise that I will not bite you.” So the man picked up the snake, put it in his pocket and proceeded to carry the snake across the river. No sooner had the man started to cross the river when the snake bit him. As the man was dying, he angrily asked the snake, “Why did you bite me!? Now we will both die!” The snake replied, “Yes, but you knew what I was before you picked me up, yet you did so anyway.”
Ladies we have to pay attention to the orange and red flags! Leave the snakes on the ground where they belong and keep a steppin!