It’s time for another episode of The Baggage Reclaim Sessions.
In episode 60, I cover:
“I should have more self-discipline”: I explain why we need to stop criticising us for having to cut something out in order to avoid temptation and move forward. I talk about food, deleting the likes of Facebook and Instagram, and having to go No Contact. | Link mentioned: It’s Just The One Chocolate Bar. It’s Just The One Values and Boundaries Bust. Or is it?
Why doesn’t our gifting feel so giving?: I talk about overspending, passive-aggressive gifts, gifting even when the person has asked us not to, ill-judged gifts and feeling as if we’re being upstaged by a show-off. | Links mentioned: Episode 15 about giving | Episode 2: What’s the baggage behind it? | Unsent Letter Guide
Intense with the one after you: I explain why we shouldn’t be too quick to assume that our commitment-avoiding ex is committing to the one after us. | Extra links:
Listener Question: Steve wants to know whether he’s right to feel rejected about his girlfriend not sleeping in his arms for the entire night.
What I Learned This Week: When we’ve been rehashing something, it’s good to make a conscious decision to talk about something else.
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Listener questions can be emailed to podcast AT baggagereclaim DOT com and if there’s a topic you’d love me to talk about, let me know!
Nat xxx
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Thank you for raising awareness about baggage behind gifting. This has helped me to evaluate my issues with it. I’m a throughout the year gifter. I believe in gifting only when I see something that I think my loved one would genuinely enjoy, and not just for the obligation of the holidays. Being a mother, I feel like gifts just accumulate to the point that there becomes too much to actually enjoy apart from cleaning it and finding a place for it. Ownership can be such a burden. I’m far from minimalist but I am striving to get there, and respect the natural ebb and flow of things; but often times, I feel obligated to keep something that doesn’t add to my life, because it was a gift. I hate clutter, but it’s always there.
My mother is a compulsive shopper and giver. I feel, she will give me things to overcompensate, feel indispensable, make up for what she feels she failed to do in the past when I was a kid. She’ll even gift me things that she herself wants, even though I have repeatedly told her, I have no need for such things in my life because I have everything I need and it’s a pain in the ass to clean or find a place for it. When I’m at her house, she’ll ask me if I want some food or a blanket, and I tell her no thank you, and she questions if I’m sure and will get it for me anyway. It’s frustrating, but I love her, so we’re working on this boundary. When I was a kid, she would get me things a child normally requires, like 5 months in advance and tell me it was my birthday gift. Here I am complaining, when my single mother did her best to provide all my needs and then some, and has still been continually helpful into adulthood. What frustrated me though, was her own spending habit, prevented me from having some of the extracurricular experiences. It was her new grandfather clock over my discounted ski-pass or school field trip. Granted, she made her own money and I was a kid who really couldn’t have any say since most of needs were taken care of, and she deserved the finer things in life she worked hard for; but when she’d tell me we didn’t have the money to do something, but she would go buy a new set of furniture every few years and compulsively buy decorative shit that started to really clutter the house, I was a bit resentful. That, and she was very protective over all of her stuff. She compulsively keeps everything spotless and perfect to the point she will not let it be used-I feel it’s for the image and her own control issues, and it seemed sometimes liked she valued her stuff over my feelings or livelihood. I wasn’t allowed to make any messes or really use anything useful around the house. Constantly walked around with the feeling that I did something wrong, (still,) that I was going to mess something up and was careless, or anything I tried to do wasn’t good enough if not exactly her perfect way. My ex husband, who I share a kid with, was very micromanaging and all about the image of having nice stuff. He didn’t like that I was thrift-shopper. He would guilt-gift me extravagant gifts as a diversion, or to compensate for his emotional unavailability, and duplicity. He compulsively shopped and had so much stuff that I felt suffocated, and I’m sure he did too with all the unfinished projects. I feel suffocated in my own stuff now, and it’s not too much compared to some. Around him, I never felt good enough, or that I could truly be myself. I felt like a role-filler, a useful tool or an interchangeable appendage to fuel his fantasy image. Something to be put on the shelf after the initial thrill of newness wore off. He frequently, would also give me his 2nd hand gifts, which I guess I can’t complain because I’m an advocate of getting complete use out of something, and even repairing it when possible. But the gifting felt like it was because he didn’t want to deal with it anymore and called it a favor. When Christmas rolls around, the gifting for the sake of gifting feels indulgent and superficial, and I often feel obligated to give back just because, when I really can’t, as I do believe in reciprocity. My best friends got me some gifts that reflect a liking of alcohol when I don’t even keep the stuff in my house, but they drink every night. I tease them about their projected gifts, but feel obligated to keep them. Thank God my best friend is a believer in passing things on and has relieved me of keeping her alcoholic gifts, lol. I’m glad to be on my own now so I can deal with the baggage of control and stuff. This has been a hard journey but I try to remember the good feeling of letting go of things that no longer serve me, because it frees me up for good stuff to come, and helps me live consciously. I prefer bartering services as gifts, or food because of it’s temporary existence.
I know what I have to say is a little off topic, but I need help! I have been reading this blog/listening to this podcast for a long time, and I know there is wisdom in this community of women. Please help me.
I have been dating a man for about a year. We now live together, in my house. When we first met I knew he liked to drink, but didn’t realize how serious it was until we started to live together. I like a few drinks now and then, but I am not an alcoholic.
He basically drinks all day. Kahlua in his morning coffee, drinks beers for lunch, then non stop drinking from the minute he gets off work at 3:00 until he goes to bed at 11. I know he’s an alcoholic. But what’s strange, in my opinion, is the fascination he has for going to one certain bar to drink. He goes there for lunch (and beer), then goes back after work at 3:00 and drinks there until 6 or 7:00. He also goes to the bar at 3:00 on Saturday and Sundays, and drinks for hours. Eventually he comes home. By then he is a bit out of it, will not eat dinner, isn’t very talkative, and basically crashes on the couch and watches tv until bed time. Says he’s too tired to do anything with me.
At first I went with him to the tavern. I thought his friends were fun and it seemed like a fun thing to do. But I quickly started to feel like I was wasting my life in a dark, dingy bar. I asked him to spend more time with me. I asked him to come straight home every once in a while and do something with me. Like go for a hike or go to a movie. I said I didn’t even care what he drank, I just wanted to do something together, the two of us, without his posse of friends at the tavern.
He might reluctantly spend a couple of hours with me, then next thing I know he is driving us to the tavern. Or we will be playing a game somewhere, and he’ll say “You can’t stop me from going to the tavern. I need to see my friends.” He sends the barmaids flowers on their birthdays (no flowers for me on my birthday). He is the life of the party at the tavern. Everybody there loves him.
I know he must be suffering serious health consequences from all this. Who can drink 24 beers a day, day after day, without problems? He is starting to get that pot belly. His eyes are continually bloodshot.
The bottom line is, I am tired of competing with a tavern. My counselor says he loves drinking at the tavern more than he loves me and that’s just a fact.
I love him. I love spending what little time we have together. He is kind and sweet. Never abusive or disrespectful. But I can’t stand this whole tavern thing. It’s making me crazy! Last night I walked home 3 miles in the dark, in a crappy neighborhood, in heels, because he kept on insisting we go to his tavern. I cried all the way home. He did not text or call. When his tavern closed he finally got a hold of me. I said I didn’t want to see him and told him to sleep somewhere else.
Please help. Should I go to Al Anon and try to figure out how to cope with his drinking? Should I give him an ultimatum about spending more time with me? Should I just keep going to the tavern with him? Should I just do nothing? Break up? Please help. I’m so miserable 🙁
My guess is that deep down you know what to do, oregongirl. It’s okay, trust your gut and remember, it’s your life and you, and only you, are responsible for taking care of it and you.
Focus on your strength.
You’re scrabbling for the crumbs he’s reluctantly throwing you. Sorry to sound blunt but he’s got an addiction which is a huge red flag. You are not responsible for him. All of your suggestions, except breaking up (and strict no contact), are continuing in enabling his addiction.
I know you’re right. I don’t know much about addictions and am finding myself lost and overwhelmed. I tried Al Anon but it seems to be about preserving the relationship at all costs and I’m not sure that’s best.
That has not been my experience in Al-Anon.
I left you a reply in the comments, I forgot to press reply on your last thread so it goes directly to you. Wishing you the best!
Not sure what you’re getting out of this relationship. Do you have a savior complex? I don’t care what Al-Anon tells you, this man is an addict, lives off of you (in your house), and does nothing for you. Even if he was a saint, the fact that you don’t like something so basic about him, means you need to end it. Pot bellied, blood shot eyes, not caring whether you walk home alone, drinking from morn till night – whats the attraction? This isn’t about him. This is about you. What keeps you hooked to this dynamic? What makes you think this is love? What makes you think this is what you deserve in life?
I was involved with an alcoholic in an on-again-off-again relationship that dragged out for a couple years… Before that, I had no experience with alcoholics or abusive relationships, so now that I am out of the situation I can definitely see things more clearly. My advice to you is to leave this person, because his drinking is likely to get worse. And with you around and vulnerable, he could go from sober, to buzzed, to drunk, to possibly angry/resentful/scary, etc. very quickly. I know how it feels to care about someone and think that they can change or want to help them. But, you have to help yourself first. Please take care of yourself and be careful.
Omg! As I was on here looking for insight into how empty and low I’m feeling because of my current situation, then I see the above headline:
“Intense with the one after you”
I dated this never before married (I have been) man on/off for 4 years. We’d get close, hang out, etc. then he’d say “let’s give us a real chance”, then he’d disappear for a few months. He often had his texting going off constantly. Sounds like one of Natalie’s books I have!
Anyways, we last spoke in April when he was texting, etc. Then, he disappeared. Again. I defriended him on FB and tried unsuccessfully to get him out of my mind. We used to be close with lots of laughs and he said he always enjoyed my company. I never asked fir anything but told him exactly how i felt several times in the past. I found out last week he (age 37) recently moved in with a 50yr old woman he’s been recently dating (it’s publicly posted all over FB, yes I looked, which in 4yrs I never made the page)! I feel so rejected and unwanted!! How could he have simply stopped being a commitment phobe who texted other women constantly and not able to make simple plans with me to living with her?? I know people don’t change that quickly but it sure seems he did. Can anyone help with insight? I offered to just be friends, I was low maintenance, but still wasn’t enough and that hurts the worst. Why has he changed now and so intense for her?
Just because he’s moved in with her does not equal he’s given up his commitment phobic ways. I lived with a commitment phobic narc – he couldn’t even commit to plans a few days ahead, it was all about him being in control. Your ex could also still be texting other women. Don’t believe everything you see on Facebook – it isn’t the full picture but just the parts they want you to see.
Would you have wanted to be living with him, and him still texting other women and disappearing on you? You’ve had a lucky escape Amy78
You’re right! I wouldn’t want to be the woman he’s living with while he’s texting other women. But you know how our minds play tricks on us and I keep envisioning them curled up together the way he and I used to do watching TV and planning for the holidays together in their new place. Like your ex, I’d always had a difficult time confirming weekend plans while he can decide to move in with her! My head knows I dodged a bullet with him, but it’s my heart I’m working on.
Amy,
I know exactly how you feel. My MM has moved onto a new woman. I know he has been intense with her because he was less communicative with me. I am certain he is doing the same to her as to me when he decided to go after her – meet for coffees, then lunches, seducing her and finally sleeping with her.
That’s exactly how it was with me. Until he found her.
They still have long lunches together, meeting up during the week at work, and then get together at her place (no doubt she tells her husband and boss she is working from home, but it is so he can go round for a shag). And as he has moved out of his marital home she can leave work early and pop round to his new place, before she toddles off home to her husband and kids.
In essence he has been and is still ‘lovebombing’ her – probably sending texts and saying the same things to her as he did to me like how wonderful she is, how he can’t wait to see her, etc etc. and thinking about that really hurts.
I do wonder if all this intensity and lovebombing is just a form of grooming to get what they want – money, sex, ,material things, whatever.
Thinking of the things they are saying to their new women, the things they are doing with them is very painful to deal with. Need to stop thinking about that. It is only us that feels the pain, these men feel nothing.
Heartbroken,
I’m so sorry you had to go through that pain as well. Sounds like you know exactly how I’m feeling! It is hard to train our heart to understand and accept what our brain already knows. Yes, we definitely need to remind ourselves we’re better off without them. I know my ex will get tired of trying to be someone he’s not….a one-woman man who doesn’t text other women, an upstanding law abiding citizen. If only I could be a fly on the wall during his Thanksgiving dinner with her family, and her college-educated kids, and her college-educated EX husband whom she is cordial with because of their kids, and then there’s him and his low class self trying to fit in wearing his one nice dress shirt. LOL!!! And he thought *I* made him feel emasculated with the little I have. He’s trying to fit in, and maybe does for now, but he can’t pretend forever….unless he’s truly changed.
Amy,
He won’t be able to keep up the pretence for long. I don’t think these men can change unless they have an epiphany which is highly unlikely. They may pretend to change for their own gains and advantage. They are selfish and looking out for their own needs.
Heartbroken,
For her sake, I hope he’s changed. Holidays with her family will definitely test their relationship. It tests mine being around my own family…and I’m actually related to them lol. But as bad as this sounds, why should he be happy after leaving a trail of broken hearts. I want him to realize how he’s treated me. For all I know, he was with her the entire time we were together and that’s even worse to think!
Amy,
Yes for her sake you would hope that he has changed, but I think he is deceiving her as well. Just as my MM is deceiving his new woman. I am sure she does not know about me. He was blocking my texts. Obviously he was with her and did not want her to get suspicious, or he just felt that he could block me and treat me with disrespect as I was not a priority anymore and he had more important fish to fry/shiny new toy that he didn’t want to lose.
I do feel the same as you in wanting to make my MM realize how he has treated me (and his wife). He has said he has treated me like shit, but I doubt if he feels bad about it. If he did he would make amends in some way, but he hasn’t even said sorry! As for how he is treating his new woman – at moment he is so infatuated with her she is his priority. He use to text me every day until middle of September when things got physical with her. Now he is spending his time texting her, calling her, arranging lunches and to meet for sex. I have this feeling in the back of my mind that next year sometime she will leave her husband to be with him properly. He has told me he doesn’t know what he wants/what is going to happen, but I think he was just fobbing me off.
That you think that your man may have been with his new woman all the time you were together is because his behaviour makes you question everything – what was real, what was a lie. We put our faith in these men, but they are experts at playing us.
I just don’t understand what these men want, I really don’t…….
I hope you have good support Amy, friends and family to spend time with – crucial to keep busy and have distractions to stop the thoughts of him occupying your mind. This is my problem – my mind is constantly thinking. I am exhausted!
As I’ve posted before, the AC that brought me here had me hanging on as his platonic ‘best friend’ for ages. He would flirt and cuddle and date me, we were often mistaken for a couple, such was the ‘connection’ between us. He had a FWB that he treated with huge disrespect, bad mouthing her to me and others. All Codes Red that I ignored in the fog. He upgraded FWB to girlfriend and at the same time became sexual with me. I was so desperate for the validation that he did after all desire me. But I couldn’t cope as I quickly began to realise I was now FWB and so I called it off.
So he’s officially and publicly with her now even though he says he’d still see me, says he’ll never move in with her as he ‘likes his privacy’ (now I know why) and although she has children he says he’s ‘not f***ing interested in someone else’s children’.
I tell you this so that you know that it’s not all always the ‘intensely happy together’ it seems. But I get you because I am still, very irrationally, upset, lost and bereft.
We live in a ‘post truth’ world where the facts don’t seem to matter very much and ‘feeling’ trumps. How we operate within ourselves is very powerful, it’s even reflected in how we operate socially and politically.
lara,
Thank you for taking the time to write. My ex is now officially and publicly with her as well. Just hurts knowing I invest all that time with nothing in return. I took him gifts and left them at his doorstep when he wouldn’t even respond to me on when I could bring it over. I even bought him a Christmas gift when I once heard him say he didn’t know how he would be able to afford Christmas but he wouldn’t text respond to me on when I could bring those over, so I just took them back. Every time I offered to back off because it didn’t seem to care he came running towards me. Then he’d play that hot and cold game. All this weighs in my mind as I see what looks like a commitment to her. Thank you for reminding me things are not always as they seem.
‘took him gifts and left them at his doorstep when he wouldn’t even respond to me on when I could bring it over’ – why would you do this? Also, what can his new gf provide this commitment phobe in terms of lifestyle? – there might be a story here since clearly he’s a bit of a user. But also – who cares? You aren’t compatible with him. So what does it matter that he’s compatible with someone else?
Suki,
I’m embarrassed I left the gifts. I’m not sure why I would do that. Maybe I felt bad for him because he didn’t have much, barely able to afford rent. He once told me he wasn’t dating seriously because women were too expensive…Maybe I wanted him to know we’re not all like that needing expensive meals, etc. She brings money to the relationship, lots more than my little gifts. She can afford a 5000sq ft home (she just sold) in relation to the dirty little 2 bedroom apartment he just moved out of to be with her. He’s the one who told ME how compatible we were….”How much fun we had together”, how “we had great conversation between us” and how we had “too many great times together” and how he wanted to give us a real chance at a relationship but he had always been drawn to drama and conflict with women but I didn’t cause any. All these things Drew me to him, making me think he cared and just didn’t know how to fully open up to me. This is why I feel like he’s changed for her. Maybe he’s more compatible with her, but he listed above in his words how we were compatible which is why I don’t understand and feel lost. I remember us laughing so hard we were crying and talking so long we closed down restaurants yet all of this wasn’t enough.
Amy78,
I have experienced the confusion you are expressing. I received an email reply when I desparately sought answers like you seem to be seeking. I received the following response, which caused me even more pain:
‘Just because two people get along great doesn’t mean it’s forever.’
Say something,
Talk about timing! Your comment couldn’t have come at a better time! I thought today about emailing him to get some answers, but I knew he wouldn’t respond. He’s only responded once to a long email from me with an apology and blowing hot again…didn’t last.
I’m so sorry you got such a cold response! Why can’t men just be kind? How hard would it be to say:
“I’m so sorry I hurt you. You are everything a man could want, I just don’t have it in me or know how to give you what you deserve and don’t want to waste any more of your time.”
But I guess that would require them to have an actual heart with feelings.
They won’t say sorry because they aren’t sorry – as you say they have no heart and certainly no feelings of guilt, especially for using us.
They toy with us until they find what fits with what they want.
Hi Amy78,
This was a response I received months later. I NEVER saw him again. I believed with everything in me that I had finally found the most wonderful man. Everything he promised me, all the plans and wishes, everything… he transferred it all to someone else as if I were a mere conduit or something. He did like me, mean all those things, yes I was such a great person. Sure… And yes he was ‘sorry’ via email. Not sorry enough to call, to be honest, to see me in person, or to deliver on ANYTHING promised or said. I had NO IDEA that while I was 100% invested, he was telling me everything I’d ever hoped to hear (not over the top, just sweet and caring) that apparently it wasn’t REALLY intended for me. It was all for the next one. I guess he just practiced it on me. Because he did all these things with someone else. I have no idea why. It will never make sense.
Say Something,
That is heartbreaking….
Why do they say such things when it is not real? And cowardly of him not to speak to you.
My MM use to say things that made me believe I meant something to him – how amazing I was, how lucky he was to know me, how lucky he was that I had chosen him to be intimate with, how fantastic I made him feel, how much he adored me, and how much he missed me the moment he left me etc etc.
All lies????
Say Something,
I’m so sorry you had to experience that. It’s hard when we wonder why they would bother even telling us those things. Why not just say nothing and disappear. My ex would say he wanted to give us a real chance…then it would last a week or two and he’d disappear. I made the mistake of taking him back until he decided not to come back just stayed gone. Now he’s “all that” and clearly giving her more than a chance. I never asked him to move in together!! He was probably with her the entire time, which hurts so bad. But I definitely feel bad for her unless he’s had this major life change.
Amy,
Just to add to your comment about why he didn’t say “I just don’t have it in me or know how to give you what you deserve and don’t want to waste any more of your time.”, my MM said I deserved better when I found out about his new woman yet he still wanted to carry on seeing me as well! I doubt you would feel better if had said that to you.
Them saying we deserve better still doesn’t cut the mustard. It is their way of making themselves feel better and we still have to deal with the fallout and pain.
Lara,
It is upsetting because it makes you wonder what is so good about her, what’s wrong with you, why aren’t enough etc. I feel just like you – lost and bereft. But as you say although feelings trump facts, we need to train our minds not to think of how they are with the new woman – that’s what eats us up. At times I say to myself he’s made his choice, let him get on with it, and I’m better off without him because he will only hurt me more. That’s the mantra we need to keep repeating to ourselves. But it is hard to dismiss the thought of him with her – it creeps back in and starts going round and round in the head.
My last partner got upset with me because I usually wasn’t in his arms when we woke up. The one time it’s impossible to control your actions is when you’re asleep. I was perplexed – seriously, how could he be upset with me for something completely out of my control? It’s not like we didn’t snuggle before going to sleep or weren’t affectionate otherwise. Although thinking about it, he did complain sometimes that I didn’t touch him enough. He needed a lot of attention/affection, I found it exhausting sometimes
Oregon girl, you are not mad at the tavern, you are mad at yourself for not truly listening to yourself and loving yourself enough- your body is telling you you need to leave this man. If the tavern was not there, he’ll find another bar, are you going to be mad at that bar too? It’s not about enabling him, it’s about taking care of you. You love a man who is in love with his addiction, so would you like to have kids with a man that would leave you a single mother with your kids while he is off doing what he loves to do- his addiction? Most likely not, you must ask yourself why you want to be in this situation? I PROMISE YOU, if you leave this man, there is light at the end of the tunnel, you just have to feel out the feelings, truly love yourself, stay single for a bit and gather yourself together. This man will only cause you nothing but pain,anxiety,fear- as he is already doing. His actions are NOT your responsibility- I don’t know about you, but I have better things to do than accompany a man to a bar every night where I am uncomfortable as hell just to please him but punishing yourself. That’s definitely not fair to yourself. When you leave him, you will be extremely grateful you did,a little pain never killed anyone, we’ve all gone through break ups and have come out stronger, I’m sure you are a beautiful and brilliant woman who can’t see clear right now because love got in the way, I can assure you this is not love, you will find your way to loving you and not accepting crumbs,you will get that man that wants to take a hike with you and go to the movies as soon as you leave this one, love yourself and make space in your life for more positive things. Much love! You can do it! Trust!
Nat,
I love you so much! The ‘quit beating yourself up for not being able to handle it’ part of the podcast was EXACTLY what I needed today! I blocked my Ex from texting me and just blocked his and his wife’s Facebook (was a great outlet for self-torture).
Thank you so much for being here with wisdom always. Onward and upward with you since 2010!